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01-09-2019 09:43 PM

Kevin

Re: Christ Versus Religion 50 Years Later!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

There are genuine born again Christians in the church represented by Sardis..... but most are nominal brought in by the state religions and a large number of denominations that are Christian organizations whose membership does not require regeneration. That is why the Lord said they have a name that is living but in reality are dead.

We should care for the Lords assessment of that situation and seek to be counted worthy of being an overcomer.

Drake

Then you are inconsistent with Lee's teachings. And so every church denominations must be a Sardist by nature and the LC is not prone to it. Why don't every LCer be so honest that Sardis prefgures Protestant Reformation without any making distinctions who are in it. Evangelicals too are protestants. But where do you place the Pentecostals and Charismatics? It seems that your interpretation that the seven churches in Revelation pertaining to seven periods/ages of church history is not updated or even shall we say it's obsolete.

Quote:

"The notion that these seven churches describe seven successive periods of Church history hardly needs refutation. To say nothing about the almost humorous—if it were not so deplorable—exegesis which, for example, makes the church at Sardis, which was dead, refer to the glorious age of the Reformation; it should be clear to every student of the Bible that there is not one atom of evidence in all the sacred writings which in any way corroborates this thoroughly arbitrary method of cutting up the history of the Church and assigning the resulting pieces to the respective epistles of Revelation 2 and 3." — Joel R. Beek

01-09-2019 07:36 PM

Drake

Re: Christ Versus Religion 50 Years Later!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin

The word "Religion" has left a bad taste in many people's mouths, even for Christians today. Mainly because of the legalism and false doctrines of the Roman Catholic church and religious cults across the country. But if you have a based-group mindset that your church is not a religion, but the rest of Christianity are according to your definition that it is without Christ, then you must probably belong to a cult group.

01-09-2019 09:05 AM

Ohio

Re: Christ Versus Religion 50 Years Later!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin

For years I was sold on the whole "Christ vs. Religion" motif, but the Bible never condemns "religion." The Book of James even speaks of "pure and undefiled religion." (1.27)

Jesus Himself never condemned the Jewish religion. What He did condemn was the politics, the hypocrisy, the legalism, the deceptions, and the works of the flesh which characterized some religious leaders.

Lee used *RELIGION* to condemn all Christianity. Today LSM has become a far worse religion than what we were regularly taught to condemn.

01-09-2019 08:49 AM

awareness

Re: Christ Versus Religion 50 Years Later!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin

Hear! Hear! Amen Kevin!

01-08-2019 10:23 PM

Kevin

Re: Christ Versus Religion 50 Years Later!

01-14-2012 07:53 AM

UntoHim

Re: Christ Versus Religion 50 Years Later!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Cox

The Local Church was presented to us based on an anti message. We had to be anti Christianity in order to be for Christ and the Church.

Well this sums it up pretty well I would say. Looking back, it seems so illogical...to be "anti" the very Body of Christ that we were claiming to be "the best" part of. I guess this is just one of the many paradoxes in the Local Church that allowed us to become a caricature of ourselves. Now, after decades of this charade, the LC has become a virtual antithesis of what they claim to be, and the walls they have built up around seem impenetrable. May the Lord have mercy.

01-14-2012 06:32 AM

Ohio

Re: Christ Versus Religion 50 Years Later!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Cox

hrist was not vs religion. He did not come preaching an "anti" message. And he didn't have to paint a dark backdrop of religion in order to make himself shine all the more. He presented Himself as the everything to our every need. He confronted the hypocrisy of religion when it confronted Him. Judaism was the continuation of the healthy body of work that God had been doing all along. Hypocrisy was a diseased attachment.

Well said . . . "He confronted the hypocrisy of religion when it confronted Him." This should be our attitude, too. Had more people in the LRC this attitude, perhaps it's history would have been a bit more honorable.

01-14-2012 05:23 AM

Paul Cox

Re: Christ Versus Religion 50 Years Later!

The video left me feeling a little disturbed, too. It's one of those things that on the one hand makes you say, yes, in one part of you, and at the same time leaves you feeling there is something wrong.

Here is the problem, I think. Lee was wrong. Christ was not vs religion. He did not come preaching an "anti" message. And he didn't have to paint a dark backdrop of religion in order to make himself shine all the more. He presented Himself as the everything to our every need. He confronted the hypocrisy of religion when it confronted Him. Judaism was the continuation of the healthy body of work that God had been doing all along. Hypocrisy was a diseased attachment.

The Local Church was presented to us based on an anti message. We had to be anti Christianity in order to be for Christ and the Church.

Now, what has the Local Church become? A sect of Christianity, with cultic tendencies, and a religious structure that can compare with the staunches of "religion." A system of error.

P.C.

(go Saints)

01-14-2012 02:48 AM

OBW

Re: Christ Versus Religion 50 Years Later!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abounding

I have seen this posted quite a bit. When I first saw it I thought that is was interesting. Some points are quite true. It was when a facebook contact from the LC posted it that I thought it was offensive. I felt that they consider where I attend now to be "religion", while I consider them to be "religion" I think what happens is saten comes into religion and tries to ruin it. This video is an exsample of satan trying to turn people away from God. They will think that they just won't meet with other believers because it is all hypocrisy. This is what divides the body.

I started to agree with ToGodAlone. But on a second look, I don't think it is over the top. It may not simply be "when Satan comes" to ruin things. But it is a sort of "get it right the first time or don' try" attitude.

You know the old saying "if at first you don't succeed, then skydiving is not for you." Well the Christian life is not skydiving. It is trying and failing in an environment in which you are encouraged to get up and try again, not one in which you either succeed the first time or you are dead.

And trying is not contrary to the gospel. No, you don't "get saved" (at least initial salvation) by trying. But you when it comes to sanctification, if you don't try, you can't succeed. If you don't step out in faith, then the evidence is that you must not really have any. And you fail because you did not try. It is not a Jedi thing in which it is simply do or do not. But you should undertake it as if you are to do. Even if you fail.

01-14-2012 02:38 AM

OBW

Re: Christ Versus Religion 50 Years Later!

I finally hit one of the links and it was in ToGodAlone's post (#9) that was to a write-up on it by one of my favorite bloggers, Kevin DeYoung. And he put it pretty much the way I did. Much more verbosely. I haven't been reading any of my blogs for the past couple of months and it was a little encouraging to get back into it after reading this one.

I will admit that among the blogs I follow, DeYoung is among the most "traditional," and is a pastor of a Reformed Church essentially down the street from Rob Bell's Mars Hill in Michigan. And if any of them tend to wax toward towing the standard "church" line, he would be the one. But I still like him.

And I think he got it right on this. He detailed all the words and tells us that there are both positive and questionable things included. My take on the whole is similar to DeYoung's. Zeal without grace. Despises self-righteousness but doesn't see the value of obedience and sanctification. Those are hard things. They will constantly show where we are not "up to snuff." But if we simply despise those who are not immediately succeeding, then we discourage them from trying and keeping on the road of sanctification. We make people think that you might as well give up if you can't just do it the first time out.

Or we could try Lee's way, which is not to try, but simply ignore righteousness while continuing to take in so-called "dispensing" until it just oozes from your pores and you become righteous.

Yes, many of the things he talks about are problems sometimes. But they are not simply "religion" and the good things simply "Christianity." And anyone (in this forum) who thinks that we are not supposed to "try" has not gone through a full detox from Lee's rhetoric. That kind of polarized, false dichotomy is designed to separate you from others, one way or the other. To with feel superior for not being in "religion" or dejected for not yet "being there." Or as some in the LRC used to call it, "making it." John So came to Dallas one time back in the 70s (I believe) and sort of mocked the rhetoric of "making it." Maybe his ouster was not simply about PL and the LSM, but also his lack of respect for the polarizing lingo of the movement.

01-13-2012 08:58 PM

ToGodAlone

Re: Christ Versus Religion 50 Years Later!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abounding

This video is an exsample of satan trying to turn people away from God. They will think that they just won't meet with other believers because it is all hypocrisy. This is what divides the body.

I think that's a little over the top. I agree that some of the wording turns people off, but I'm pretty sure his aim to get the name of Christ out there and to bring people TO him, not turn them away. You're not going to please everyone, but in a world where mentioning "religion" in general, not to mention Christianity (which seems to receive more hate than any other religion), is frowned upon and subject to a lot of scrutiny, having a video such as this, which is trending all over the place, which proclaims the love of Christ in an atmosphere where any and all can see, that's pretty awesome. It may be its popularity that is the reason for all of this intense studying of the lyrics and whatnot, but sometimes I think people are just straight up overanalyzing it. But I guess I could be insane...

01-13-2012 03:18 PM

Abounding

Re: Christ Versus Religion 50 Years Later!

01-13-2012 03:03 PM

OBW

Re: Christ Versus Religion 50 Years Later!

I knew that mentioning the whole "what is the definition of religion" thing would not just slip by entirely. But as I listened to it, I recall that by the end, even having heard the beginning, that bad taste was still there. There is something problematic about the kind of even unintentional equivocation that occurs in the mind of the listener.

And then, as I read some of the more recent posts, this stuck out to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Igzy

. . . it's also about simply being deceived by a false substitute of genuine service of God.

And my question then is "what is genuine service to God"? Is it:

Some subset of our human activities?
Things done in time of worship, during prayer/study of the word, during "fellowship," and when specifically doing "justice"?
Anything that a Christian does that is not inconsistent with God's righteousness and not done for base reasons (which would be inconsistent with God's righteousness)?

What goes through our minds when we say "genuine service to God"?

01-13-2012 02:24 PM

Ohio

Re: Christ Versus Religion 50 Years Later!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Igzy

by this confusion." Let's be honest, LCers have been damaged by a lot of things. So take your pick. But the problem often isn't the essential information being given, the problem is LCers are never allowed to process the information they are given and to put it into perspective. So the result is they end up getting damaged because they don't know the basic skills of gaining understanding on their own. They just let their teachers tell them what to think and, whether it makes sense or not to them, they run with it, often trampling anyone who has the misfortune to be in their way, including each other.

I'm not buying this. It diverts us from the topic at hand, and sends us down a road that doesn't match the facts. Many LC'ers are the brightest folks I have ever met, full of knowledge and insight into human life. I believe that most did have "the basic skills of gaining understanding on their own," but excessively trusted their leaders for other reasons. But I'll leave this to another thread.

I agree with your point about the dangers of "simply being deceived by a false substitute of genuine service of God." Nicodemus was one such example of this. He was deceived by a false "religion" of service to God. The Lord did not rebuke him, however, neither did the Lord treat him harshly. Instead, the Lord educated Him, and "made him wise unto salvation." The Lord showed him a better way, the way of faith which brought the new birth.

Our topic here is centered on the word "versus." What is Christ "versus?" Is He versus religion? I'm not so sure anymore. Is He versus a false substitute? Perhaps, because they cheat His people. Is He versus hypocrisy? Definitely, His word tells us that repeatedly.

Maybe I'm seeing things in black and white.

01-13-2012 01:46 PM

Cal

Re: Christ Versus Religion 50 Years Later!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Having the Recovery as our backdrop, I don't think we can stress this point enough.

The Lord Jesus did not condemn the entire Jewish religion when He ministered on earth. What Jesus did condemn was the hypocrisy of their leaders. Numerous cases exist throughout the gospels, where He upheld the Jewish religion, and even honored it. The Lord's rebukes to the Jewish leaders centered on their hypocrisy, including their traditions which made His commandments void.

WL's book Christ vs. Religion confused this issue, creating a much larger "enemy" in the name of religion, than merely the hypocrisy condemned by the Lord. By transposing the words "hypocrisy" and "religion," WL successfully included all believers. All Christians were thus categorized with the hypocrites. The book of James uses this word "religion," which is another reason why James is so discredited in the LRC. I believe many LC'ers have been damaged by this confusion. So much so, that the LSM has a history of condoning their own hypocrisy, all the while condemning all other Christian churches, denominations, free gatherings, and ministries.

How totally self-serving their condemnation on religion has become.

Although your point is well-taken, again I say it's not just about hypocrisy, it's also about simply being deceived by a false substitute of genuine service of God.

Again, the validity of the subject depends one which definition of religion one is using. Let's not make this a semantic argument about what "religion" really means and whether the word is okay to use. The question is what is the essence of the boy's point, and though hypocrisy is part of the equation, it is not all of it. The rest of it simply having a mistaken assumption of what kind of service pleases God.

I'm not advocating condemning "entire religions" or a scorched earth policy against "religion." But the fact is people who pray rosary beads with the idea that the sheer number of beads prayed makes a difference to God are deceived, but their problem isn't hypocrisy. It may just be misplaced sincerity.

Lastly, let me comment on your statement:

"I believe many LC'ers have been damaged by this confusion."

Let's be honest, LCers have been damaged by a lot of things. So take your pick. But the problem often isn't the essential information being given, the problem is LCers are never allowed to process the information they are given and to put it into perspective. So the result is they end up getting damaged because they don't know the basic skills of gaining understanding on their own. They just let their teachers tell them what to think and, whether it makes sense or not to them, they run with it, often trampling anyone who has the misfortune to be in their way, including each other.

Mindlessness + lots of information = disaster

Mindlessness + lots of information + zeal = total disaster

01-13-2012 01:28 PM

UntoHim

Re: Christ Versus Religion 50 Years Later!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

The Lord Jesus did not condemn the entire Jewish religion when He ministered on earth. What Jesus did condemn was the hypocrisy of their leaders. Numerous cases exist throughout the gospels, where He upheld the Jewish religion, and even honored it. The Lord's rebukes to the Jewish leaders centered on their hypocrisy, including their traditions which made His commandments void.

Excellent! Just was I was thinking but you beat me to the punch. Remember the Lord Jesus did refer to the temple as "My Father's House", therefore there was still something genuine left of that dusty old religion of the Jews after all. He also went into the temple to teach in many of the cities he visited, so maybe he wasn't quite as "versus" religion as we have been led to believe. Maybe if he would come back today he would go into one of those fancy dancy megachurches and turn over the tables that sell those self help books and religious trinkets.....just thinkin out loud here...

01-13-2012 01:02 PM

Ohio

Re: Christ Versus Religion 50 Years Later!

Quote:

Originally Posted by OBW

But Christianity is religion. Not just a religion.

So the fight is really against hypocrisy. Against veiling evil and unrighteousness with the cloak of religion. Against wielding the book of the God of love as if it is a battle axe.

01-13-2012 12:19 PM

ToGodAlone

Re: Christ Versus Religion 50 Years Later!

I think when it comes to the matter of what defines "religion" in this particular piece, this blog post addresses it nicely. I think Igzy got it on the money when he said that you need to have the proper definition of religion in mind for the piece in order to truly understand the speaker's mindset.

http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/...ta-not-really/

Long story short, the guy just wants to proclaim the love of Christ, not start up this whole thing about whether or not Jesus was against religion or whatever else.

01-13-2012 11:33 AM

UntoHim

Re: Christ Versus Religion 50 Years Later!

I haven't read Christ Versus Religion in many years (hasn't been 50, but quite a few). I agree with Mike's assessment that "Christ was not simply versus religion", and this is some of the point I was making in posting the video in the first place, and using the title "Christ Versus Religion 50 Years Later!" I also agree with Igzy's assessment that "The question is, once the specific definition (of religion) is understood, does the rapper have a point, and he certainly does"

The irony to me is the similarity in "the message" of the rapper and Lee's original work - difference being what Lee took a couple of hundred pages to do, the rapper did in a few minutes. Both greatly oversimplified the matter at hand, but I highly doubt that the kid is going to get a big following or have a whole sect started because of this little ditty.

01-13-2012 10:59 AM

ToGodAlone

Re: Christ Versus Religion 50 Years Later!

I think the point of the poem is more about glorifying Christ and what he stood for more so than "bashing" religion. The way I saw it, he was just highlighting the difference between Christianity and the rest of "religion" namely, love. Obviously, there are some stanzas here and there that people can choose to nitpick, but I think that's really missing the point...or maybe focusing on something minor relative to the whole. I far from expect this to bring joy to everyone's ears, but still, brother's got a point am I right?

01-13-2012 10:30 AM

Ohio

Re: Christ Versus Religion 50 Years Later!

Quote:

Originally Posted by OBW

My wife played that a couple of days ago on her computer. There is a fair bit of truth in it, and yet it leaves a bad taste in my mouth because, like Lee, it simply distills everything down according to the following formula:

Religion = (everything bad that has been found within religion or claimed to be done in the name of religion)

But Christianity is religion. Not just a religion.

So the fight is really against hypocrisy. Against veiling evil and unrighteousness with the cloak of religion. Against wielding the book of the God of love as if it is a battle axe.

Christ was not simply versus religion. He was versus religion that had lost its roots; lost its meaning; lost its reason for existing. He was versus people who used religion as a way to gain control over people.

I agree with OBW's observations. It's too easy to use that video and condemn all others. Sound familiar?

01-13-2012 10:29 AM

Cal

Re: Christ Versus Religion 50 Years Later!

Quote:

Originally Posted by OBW

But Christianity is religion. Not just a religion.

So the fight is really against hypocrisy. Against veiling evil and unrighteousness with the cloak of religion. Against wielding the book of the God of love as if it is a battle axe.

I despise the presumption that good Christians vote Republican (or even Libertarian); the insistence that America is a "Christian" nation (besides culturally -- and that is fading); the "wars" on homosexuality, abortion, etc. I despise the nasty, ruthless rhetoric of people who otherwise might claim to represent my position on things. My position is mostly about how I behave, live, and believe. It is not the basis upon which I decide who to love and/or what kind of love I will dole out. (And for the most part, I don't believe that so-called "tough love" is mine to mete out except to those for whom I have charge to discipline.)

Christ was not simply versus religion. He was versus religion that had lost its roots; lost its meaning; lost its reason for existing. He was versus people who used religion as a way to gain control over people.

I disagree somewhat. "Religion" specifically defined as serving practices rather than God and/or attempting to please God in your own strength is a definite problem with mankind. It's not just hypocrisy. It's a specific kind of deception which replaces one type of devotion with another.

Lee got some things wrong, but his definition of religion as attempting to please God apart from an ongoing relationship with Christ was pretty much spot on.

Religion as used here is attempting to be a Christian apart from abiding in Christ. The word religion can be defined in other ways. But I've noticed that when people argue against this kind of thing it's usually becomes a matter of semantics, about how the word "religion" should be defined. But that's not an interesting discussion. The question is, once the specific definition is understood, does the rapper have a point, and he certainly does.

01-13-2012 09:05 AM

OBW

Re: Christ Versus Religion 50 Years Later!

Religion = (everything bad that has been found within religion or claimed to be done in the name of religion)

Each item listed is absolutely true. And I get riled up about the same things. But I don't declare that it is the sum total of religion, while the good we do in worship, study, and practice is something else. And since it is added to discussion in a broad, public place in which religion is much more than just its bad things, it pretends to suggest that everything that people call religion must be bad. And there is a way of thinking that would like that result. They want not only to deny religious activity of any kind in government institutions or properties, but even your ability to privately practice your "religion" as you see fit. They don't want you to be able to teach your children about anything that they call "religion." And for them, the whole of Christianity is just religion.

But Christianity is religion. Not just a religion.

So the fight is really against hypocrisy. Against veiling evil and unrighteousness with the cloak of religion. Against wielding the book of the God of love as if it is a battle axe.

I despise the presumption that good Christians vote Republican (or even Libertarian); the insistence that America is a "Christian" nation (besides culturally -- and that is fading); the "wars" on homosexuality, abortion, etc. I despise the nasty, ruthless rhetoric of people who otherwise might claim to represent my position on things. My position is mostly about how I behave, live, and believe. It is not the basis upon which I decide who to love and/or what kind of love I will dole out. (And for the most part, I don't believe that so-called "tough love" is mine to mete out except to those for whom I have charge to discipline.)

Christ was not simply versus religion. He was versus religion that had lost its roots; lost its meaning; lost its reason for existing. He was versus people who used religion as a way to gain control over people.

01-13-2012 07:26 AM

UntoHim

Re: Christ Versus Religion 50 Years Later!

"Republican doesn't automatically mean Christian"??? What! Stock the fire, let's burn this kid at the stake!

My favorite lines:

The problem with religion is it never gets to the core,
it's just behavior modification like a long list of chores

Now I ain't judgin I'm just sayin quit puttin on a fake look
there's a problem if people only know you're a Christian by your Facebook
In every other aspect of life you know that logic's unworthy
it's like sayin you play for the Lakers just because you bought a jersey

01-13-2012 07:04 AM

ToGodAlone

Re: Christ Versus Religion 50 Years Later!

This has been trending all over the place lately. Fantastic video imo.

01-13-2012 06:23 AM

UntoHim

Christ Versus Religion 50 Years Later!

http://www.godtube.com/watch/?v=FMBE...ign=01/13/2012

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