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01-10-2010 10:19 AM
OBW
Re: Witness Lee on Elders Needing to be Ezras

Quote:
Originally Posted by YP0534 View Post
I think this is true but I continue to question how aware Lee was of the natural and predictable output of his program. I don't think he really intended to build the Local Church as his legacy. I think he really believed that the Local Church was what God wanted built.
Lee did not expect any kind of legacy. He fully believed that the Second Coming was within his lifetime. It has been stated elsewhere that he honestly thought that around 1996 was the time. Interesting that it was about the time of his death. No, he never made a prophecy about when it would happen. But in his mind he had figured out the day, or at least the month.

I am not criticizing those who believe that the Coming of the Lord is imminent. We should all live as if it is. And at the same time we should live as if it is not. We should live normal lives that are righteous and are expecting His return. The more I see the fruit of the LC, the more I see the Normal Christian Life as an abnormal life focused almost exclusively on "spiritual" activities.

And I agree that Lee believed what he preached. I am not sure that all of that belief is based upon Christ, the Spirit, and/or scripture. (That is another discussion.) But he believed it.

But his attitudes toward other believers, even his closest followers, demonstrates his blindness to the parts of scripture that he could not fit into his dispensing/ground/body/"oneness"/human spirit theology.
01-10-2010 10:05 AM
OBW
Re: Witness Lee on Elders Needing to be Ezras

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
I take another view. Why did WL continually rebuke all his fellow workers? He knew that he was fueling both sides. Didn't he think his own actions were to blame. On the one hand he knew TC was much more gifted and spiritual than the BB's, but on the other hand he was obsessed with the continuation of his own ministry. He wanted it both ways. Instead he created a monster, a ticking time bomb. Since WL could not get along with any outsiders, including WN's own co-workers, is it not understandable that his students could not get along either?
This is a most interesting way to consider Lee's relationship with so many of his followers. But most important is the observation that all of them TC, JI, BM, the GLA, SoCal, even those Texas boys that stayed at his side to the end were only followers. He had no peers. If any would stand up to him in any way, even just in being a sounding board, they were subject to dismissal. He couldn't get along with the only peers he ever sort of had the other followers of Nee. And once he dismissed them, everyone else was either a follower or a rival in his book.

He may have believed the things that he was teaching about the special position of the "church on the proper ground" and the other things, but he was determined to be THE ONE AND ONLY LEADER from the day he left mainland China probably even before that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
By rebuking both sides, he gives the impression that he alone is according to God's heart, and that all the problems were due to the failures in his followers.
Yes, and each one's observation of the rebukes of the others while ignoring the rebukes they received elevated them in their own eyes. Unlike Paul, who showed a more excellent way, Lee only rebuked for being the wrong way. His was a message of rebuke. And there was no easy fix. You had to wait around for more dispensing to eventually get it right.
01-09-2010 08:14 AM
YP0534
Re: Witness Lee on Elders Needing to be Ezras

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
By eliminating the likes of John Ingalls and so many others over the years, WL was left with mostly stale "yes-men" steeped in high-peak theology, but void of tender conscience and innovative spirit, since those remaining all knew too much about what "really" has happened. WL has no one to blame but himself when all these "yes-men" cannot carry out his wishes.
I think this is true but I continue to question how aware Lee was of the natural and predictable output of his program. I don't think he really intended to build the Local Church as his legacy. I think he really believed that the Local Church was what God wanted built.

In other words, yes, it was "my way or the highway" for Lee but as he was so fond of saying from time to time, to him, it wasn't even his teaching...
01-09-2010 07:27 AM
Ohio
Re: Witness Lee on Elders Needing to be Ezras

Quote:
Originally Posted by PriestlyScribe View Post
Ohio, you have a very solid point there. Witness Lee did ask elders to do things that would make their loyalty to the system suspect - in other words, if they did obey his word to keep teaching the truth to the local saints [other than on Sunday morning] - they would open themselves to others' accusation of violating the new "anti-one-man-speaking" doctrine. Catch 22.

The fact of Witness Lee's considerable justified displeasure toward the co-workers and elders (especially so near the time of his death) has been swept under the rug for too many years. In light of this new understanding, it seems now that the Blending brothers laid claim to a depth and quality of oneness with Witness Lee and his ministry, which in actuality did not exist.
On other posts I have written about these conflicts, that is ... in the years subsequent to WL's passing, TC instructed the GLA FT'ers to research all LSM books for quotes to ascertain "WL's true feeling" about certain hot topic issues of conflict. Already the BB's had serious differences from TC and the GLA. Each side felt they were "more true" to WL's burden and heart. This is why Norm is so familiar with WL's rebukes of the SoCal leaders, and the BB's are so familiar with WL's rebukes of TC.

I take another view. Why did WL continually rebuke all his fellow workers? He knew that he was fueling both sides. Didn't he think his own actions were to blame. On the one hand he knew TC was much more gifted and spiritual than the BB's, but on the other hand he was obsessed with the continuation of his own ministry. He wanted it both ways. Instead he created a monster, a ticking time bomb. Since WL could not get along with any outsiders, including WN's own co-workers, is it not understandable that his students could not get along either?

By rebuking both sides, he gives the impression that he alone is according to God's heart, and that all the problems were due to the failures in his followers. Remember all those "moo cow" messages? Why blame us when your messages lacked anointing and freshness, and just regurgitated stale theology? In truth, the program was flawed. The judgment he loved to dish out to others was coming back full circle. Days of blessing were long gone, but instead of serious repentence, he tried to divvy up the blame.

By eliminating the likes of John Ingalls and so many others over the years, WL was left with mostly stale "yes-men" steeped in high-peak theology, but void of tender conscience and innovative spirit, since those remaining all knew too much about what "really" has happened. WL has no one to blame but himself when all these "yes-men" cannot carry out his wishes.
01-09-2010 06:27 AM
YP0534
Re: Witness Lee on Elders Needing to be Ezras

Quote:
Originally Posted by PriestlyScribe View Post
The fact of Witness Lee's considerable justified displeasure toward the co-workers and elders (especially so near the time of his death) has been swept under the rug for too many years. In light of this new understanding, it seems now that the Blending brothers laid claim to a depth and quality of oneness with Witness Lee and his ministry, which in actuality did not exist.
I've actually been saying this since 1989 to whoever would hear me, and many others have as well. The Internet has just allowed all of us who recognize this to stand up and be counted at last.

I saw what was apparently an LSM-approved a puppet show on a television monitor in the LSM area one time around 1987-88. (It was a "tour" in Anaheim as I try to recall it now but it might have been in Irving.) Knowing how harshly Lee spoke against such "gimmicks" (rightly or wrongly), I knew he couldn't have much awareness of what those folks were up to at the time.

The simple and undeniable fact is that the Local Church has become the Degraded Recovered Church and we watched it happen in real time.
01-08-2010 04:31 PM
PriestlyScribe
Re: Witness Lee on Elders Needing to be Ezras

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
I used to take every word of WL to heart ... that is, until I stepped away and studied the real situation. Here is may take:

...By design ... WL and LSM demanded that each LC be led by loyal and zealous franchise managers. It's no wonder that so many elders and saints have long departed for greener pastures...

...Then in 1994, WL comes along and critiques the elders for being "Zerubbabel administrators" and NOT "Ezra teachers"? Balderdash! Are you serious? What a shame that WL did not take responsibility for the system he created. We were long told that "all we needed" was the up-to-date ministry of WL. But ... it didn't work ... imagine that ... because there were so few real elders still around.
Ohio, you have a very solid point there. Witness Lee did ask elders to do things that would make their loyalty to the system suspect - in other words, if they did obey his word to keep teaching the truth to the local saints [other than on Sunday morning] - they would open themselves to others' accusation of violating the new "anti-one-man-speaking" doctrine. Catch 22.

So, what comment do you have on the below VIDEO which I learned about from Norm? It's not exactly about elders needing to become Ezras, but it is about elders needing to practice what they trumpet in their own localities.

It was only recently that I gained access to the 1996 video tape which Norm referenced (6F FTT 15) back in 2007 on the other forum. After watching it I was shocked to realize how much of what WL said there was edited out of Chapter 15 of the book "The Vital Groups". I now feel it's crucial that others have the opportunity to watch this for the first time - and hear at least a short portion of his many corrective words for themselves. (Total speaking missing from the Book = approx 40min)

The fact of Witness Lee's considerable justified displeasure toward the co-workers and elders (especially so near the time of his death) has been swept under the rug for too many years. In light of this new understanding, it seems now that the Blending brothers laid claim to a depth and quality of oneness with Witness Lee and his ministry, which in actuality did not exist.

Below are two paths to access and download the 80sec 28Meg .mpg file (Windows Media Player is probably required). The audio recording [minus the testing of the Trainees] is also available there in mp3 format:

http://www.blendedbody.com/WitnessLee/ or www.MendingMinistry.com
PS
01-02-2010 07:28 AM
OBW
Re: Witness Lee on Elders Needing to be Ezras

Interesting. There are "some." Some:

Apostles
Prophets
Evangelists
Shepherds
Teachers

Yet if you are an elder, you are expected to be a teacher whether or not you are any of the others? I don't think so. In fact, the primary charge to the elders is not directly found on that list, and if it looks like any of them, is more like shepherd.
12-27-2009 12:27 PM
Ohio
Re: Witness Lee on Elders Needing to be Ezras

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry View Post
This is part of the evolution of the recovery; going from praying for the individual believer to praying for the work.

Terry
How true! Great observation.
12-27-2009 09:00 AM
Terry
Re: Witness Lee on Elders Needing to be Ezras

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post

Then in 1994, WL comes along and critiques the elders for being "Zerubbabel administrators" and NOT "Ezra teachers"? What a shame that WL did not take responsibility for the system he created. We were long told that "all we needed" was the up-to-date ministry of WL. But ... it didn't work ... imagine that ... because there were so few real elders still around.

They will never learn. They can't. The system won't let them. Because ... if they do, the system will reject them.
Generally, the teachers and shepherds in the recovery were ejected by choice or by default. Many who remained were largey local administrators and maybe teachers who were more fearful of man, than fearing God. This explains why many zerubabbels remained and why ezras did not. This is part of the evolution of the recovery; going from praying for the individual believer to praying for the work.

Terry
12-27-2009 07:08 AM
Ohio
Re: Witness Lee on Elders Needing to be Ezras

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry View Post
This is from Witness Lee speaking regarding elders at the Nehemiah training 12/29/94.

The main responsibility of elders is to teach. (1 Timothy 3:2). Witness Lee went on to say elders don't know much of the biblical truths to teach. ... Many elders have had no capacity to teach. Elders have received the appointment to bear the responsibility, but do not practice the responsibility.
I used to take every word of WL to heart ... that is, until I stepped away and studied the real situation. Here is may take:

Year after year, many real elders were chased off (think of all those quarantines as purges) because they were criticized for not being properly "one with the ministry." Who cares whether they were shepherding and leading the local saints, as the scripture saith, when they were just "lukewarm" towards the ministry and all those "new ways" and gimmicks coming out of Taipei and Anaheim? This went on for decades. By design ... WL and LSM demanded that each LC be led by loyal and zealous franchise managers. It's no wonder that so many elders and saints have long departed for greener pastures.

Then in 1994, WL comes along and critiques the elders for being "Zerubbabel administrators" and NOT "Ezra teachers"? Balderdash! Are you serious? What a shame that WL did not take responsibility for the system he created. We were long told that "all we needed" was the up-to-date ministry of WL. But ... it didn't work ... imagine that ... because there were so few real elders still around. Duhhhh!

I now view all such talk by WL to be the "passing of gas." He continually blamed the elders for the rotten program he had created. He continually blamed the saints for being "moo-cows." He continually blamed the opposers for poisoning the saints. He continually blamed all of Christianity for having pastors. The Blendeds have surely learned his ways. They forever sing praises to WL and the recovery, yet blame all its loyal members for failing to properly "carry out WL's ministry."

They will never learn. They can't. The system won't let them. Because ... if they do, the system will reject them.
12-26-2009 09:02 PM
Terry
Witness Lee on Elders Needing to be Ezras

This is from Witness Lee speaking regarding elders at the Nehemiah training 12/29/94.

The main responsibility of elders is to teach. (1 Timothy 3:2). Witness Lee went on to say elders don't know much of the biblical truths to teach. Calling on the Lord is not a truth. Neither is baptism, speaking in tongues, presbytery, etc. What is truths are justification, sanctification, conformation, transformation, and glorification.

Many elders have had no capacity to teach. Elders have received the appointment to bear the responsibility, but do not practice the responsibility. That being visiting saints, shepherding, feeding, and caring for the saints. This is what Witness defined as being an "Ezra". Ezra was a scribe. He was skilled in the Book of Law. What elders have been doing is what Witness Lee defined as "Zerubabbel". That is to be administrators. As Witness Lee has said too many Zerubabbels and not enough Ezras. Is this the condition of your localities? Appointed elders functioning as Zerubabbel. Wanting to function as the local administrator, but to be an Ezra is too demanding. Who has time to visit the saints, to shepherd them, to teach, to feed them, to care for the saints?

Terry

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