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If you really Nee to know Who was Watchman Nee? Discussions regarding the life and times of Watchman Nee, the Little Flock and the beginnings of the Local Church Movement in Mainland China

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09-26-2018 10:59 PM
Gubei
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

It's been so a long time since I last posted.

Recently, I read the book. I felt those stories are quite plausible. If the book had been published earlier especially during or before I lived in Shanghai (I left the city 10 years ago to be back to my hometown in South Korea), I'd have checked the details as much as I can during my residence in Shanghai.

BTW, very coincidentally, one of Watchman Nee's family members will be visiting my hometown from Hong Kong in Oct. The organizing brother invited me for dinner with him, but I'm not sure if I should accept that invitation. Even if I go, seems like I will not ask him if or not the book is correct...

Either way, any Korean brother in this forum?
07-29-2018 11:03 PM
jeff of jesus grace
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Nee and Samson were far apart.

For years I sought to find any leader/ teacher / preacher in the world who spoke the truth as Yahweh reveals in His Word. I found that when Yahweh reveals the truth , when He opens the understanding of Scripture, to anyone in the world, He is Faithful and True all the time - He Reveals the Truth without change, He gives His Understanding to every Ekklesia ("little child") who is born again by His Will from heaven, and that this is rare, perhaps very rare -both (1) the truth is rare, and (2) knowing that Yahweh reveals the same truth, the same understanding of Scripture to everyone He reveals it to.

I gave surprised exceedingly great thanksgiving to Yahweh in Jesus for revealing the truth to those He chooses, to me as He Promises in His Word as Written in the Bible, and to Nee - whose books (mostly by CFP) (none by Living Stream, btw) were lessons of truth from Scripture Revealed by Yahweh to Nee - such sheer and pure truth in graciousness and extravagant fullness in detail and over all generally. Many other leaders/ teachers/ preachers/ evangelists for years had failed to pass the test of Scripture - they failed miserably , actually, obviously not knowing Jesus and vitally wrong in some or many things when checked against Scripture as Yahweh had revealed....

Miracle of miracles! From a yard sale purchase (probably), one small book at first (later over 20 books), JOY OF JOYOUS JOYS ! Nee learned from Jesus and 'printed' it! / taught and it was put in CFP's books/ .... the SAME revelation Yahweh grants to everyone abiding in jesus, who loves His Word and abides in Him, and in whom His Word abides ! HALLELUYAH!

The point? Very few other leaders/ preachers/ evangelists/ teachers have ever heard from Yahweh or Jesus, in Spirit or in any way at all. At least they do not preach, teach, or print the truth purely as Yahweh reveals the truth and His Understanding of Scripture.... Nee did. He is tested and proven more than any other I've even heard of in the last 100 or more years. In some 20 to 44 (I don't remember) books I read voraciously and cover to cover, amazed at the accuracy and fullness and clarity in line with all Yahweh Revealed to Nee, there were , at the time, perhaps 3 things that seemed even questionable (and could have been due to translation to english issues, or other shortcomings in the communication) ....By the way, every time I read something from LSP, I could not read more than a few paragraphs , thanks to Yahweh in Jesus - the 'spirit' behind their publications was so awful (even before I knew it was a book from them) ...

This testimony is true and hopefully appropriate for this time and day, and may it be helpful to others Yahweh reveals the truth to or has revealed the truth to already, and to those who are seeking the truth - know for sure and realize that Yahweh grants understanding of His Word without any contradiction from one member of His body to another, even if around the world from one another.
02-12-2017 06:46 AM
Koinonia
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Journey to the past
Updated: FEBRUARY 12, 2017 — 3:01 AM EST

Jennifer Lin is a former Inquirer staff writer and author of "Shanghai Faithful: Betrayal and Forgiveness in a Chinese Christian Family" (to be published by Rowman & Littlefield on Feb. 17), from which the following is excerpted

I heard the voice of my grandfather, the Rev. Lin Pu-chi, only once. It was a phone call to Shanghai in the spring of 1973. Months earlier, President Richard Nixon had made his historic trip to China. For the first time since fleeing China in 1949, my father, Dr. Paul M. Lin, was allowed to telephone his family, who still lived in his childhood home in the old International Settlement.

I never spoke to my grandmother, and her brother - a famous Christian preacher with the unusual name of Watchman Nee - was a complete stranger to me.

But all three would dominate my thoughts for many years. It started from the moment of my first trip to China in 1979, when my father took me and two of my sisters to Shanghai to meet the family he left behind.

The first moments of the reunion were all sweetness and smiles. In the airport reception area, under the gaze of an avuncular Chairman Mao smiling upon us from a giant mural, my father melted into the embrace of his older sister. A tinier version of him, she had an easy smile and a girlish demeanor for a woman in her 50s. Best for us, she spoke English. Like my father, she had graduated from the medical school of St. John's University, run by American missionaries, and recently retired as an obstetrician.

At the airport, our entourage split up into two borrowed vans that picked their way down a bike-choked road. Cousins who had only been faces in photographs came to life with names and personalities. To make it easier for us, they let us refer to them by their Western names. Maozhi was Aunt Martha. Her daughters Tianlin and Zhongling were Terri and Julia. Rice paddies and squat brick buildings gave way to tree-shaded avenues with storefronts that looked as if they belonged in Paris of the 1930s. What few cars were on the road were antiques from decades ago. The streetscape, too, flashed by in black and white, with everyone wearing white short-sleeved shirts and dark pants.

The family lived in House 19 on Lane 170 on Jiaozhou Road. It was a narrow, three-story brick house, sandwiched among identical dwellings along a common walkway. In another era, British neighbors would have called it a "terraced house." Entering through a rear door off a damp alley, we climbed a winding staircase to my uncle's third-story bedroom, which doubled as the family's catchall living space. It had a musty smell.

I felt as if I had entered a time capsule. In the stairwell was an old-style wall phone with a separate mouthpiece and receiver. Next to an armchair with a lace antimacassar was a mirrored wood armoire from the 1940s. I noticed that the tiny tiled bathroom with a proper Western, sit-down toilet was also the kitchen, equipped with a single gas burner that straddled the width of a claw-footed, cast-iron tub. There was no refrigerator. Food was stored in a cabinet in the tight stairwell.

Everyone jammed inside the main room. Neighbors who heard what was going on stood in the doorway, straining to glimpse foreigners. My father held court for hours, filling the gap of 30 years and answering a battery of questions.

He was still talking when I retreated to my aunt's room a floor below and climbed into her bed, exhausted from our trip, but happy to see him home.

That first morning, blaring patriotic music from a loudspeaker mounted on a pole in the alley woke me. The energetic voice of a young woman roused the neighborhood. I didn't understand a word, but it was obvious this was our wake-up call, and I got dressed.

Outside, bike bells thrummed like cicadas. A stream of cyclists already choked Jiaozhou Road. In the distance, the baritone moan of ships on the Huangpu River joined the morning chorus. Standing on the balcony off the bedroom, I could peer into the lives of families on the other side of the alleyway, or longtang. A woman plopped dumplings into a wok of sizzling oil. An older man in a white undershirt stood on his balcony swinging his arms like a windmill for exercise.

That was when I heard my father coming down the steps and turned to see him approaching me on the balcony. His words that morning would stay with me forever: "My God, this is so depressing."

He explained. After my sisters and I had turned in for the night, he stayed up talking to his Uncle George, the younger brother of Watchman Nee. George asked him in a hushed voice, "Do you have any idea what happened to us?"

The uncle proceeded to tell him about the madness of the Cultural Revolution, when good people committed sadistic acts to curry favor with rebels and to protect themselves. My grandmother, his older sister, had it the worst. She was brutalized again and again for not disowning her brother Watchman Nee, who had been branded an enemy of the people. Many times, her tormentors dragged her from her home, forced her to kneel on the pavement and pressured her to denounce him.

The constant humiliation and physical torture, this uncle told my father, had hastened her death. But the family's hardships began long before the Cultural Revolution began in 1966. Did my father know that Lin Pu-chi had been pushed out of his church work in the 1950s? Did he know that Watchman Nee had been sentenced to prison in 1956 after a trial, public shaming in the press, and the arrest of his "counterrevolutionary clique"?

The answer, sadly, was that my father had been clueless. Of course, we had read about the destructive Cultural Revolution, a decade of anarchy and struggle, when friends betrayed friends and children turned against their parents. And we knew that Watchman Nee had been sentenced in 1956 as a counterrevolutionary. But what we didn't understand - what I didn't sense until that trip - was how the political drama of the era had played out within the walls of this very house. We had been assured time and again by my grandfather that everything was fine. "Do not worry," he wrote to us. "All's well." Now as I thought back to the faces that surrounded us the previous night, I wondered: Who were the victims? Who the collaborators?

During our two-week stay, my father tried to draw more details from his siblings but failed at every turn. No one wanted to talk; George alone revealed the truth, but even then only fragments. Fear kept their voices in a tight vise. They had been targeted once before; no one could assure them it wouldn't happen again.

My father didn't press it. Instead, he vacillated between enjoying the here and now and brooding over disturbing scenes from the past that played out in his mind. It was as if an uninvited guest kept showing up as we went sightseeing from the Bund in Shanghai to the Forbidden City in Beijing. One moment, we would be sitting around a big table, laughing, enjoying a banquet, and listening to stories from long ago. The next moment, my father would drift off, anguished over thoughts of his mother in pain and his inability to help her.

When we returned to Philadelphia, my father seemed to take what he learned, place it in a box, and put it somewhere far away. Maybe it was his temperament and training as a brain surgeon: Assess, intervene, cure. Next patient.

There was no way he could undo the past, so he would not dwell on it. He moved on. My reaction was different. Maybe it had something to do with the way I was wired. As a 20-year-old college senior, I was emerging as the reporter I wanted to be, and I couldn't let go. I had read the last page of a mystery and needed to read all the preceding chapters. I wanted to know:

What happened to them and why?

For more information, visit

www.shanghaifaithful.com. @SGHFaithful
02-12-2017 04:16 AM
Evangelical
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leastofthese View Post
Evangelical, I hope that you see that other people on this forum have no reason to fabricate history or spread rumors. I "met the church" in 2015 and left in 2016. I actually knew nothing of the church's checkered past when I left. It seems that you may have, once again, created your own little reality to create another strawman argument.

Another thought - did you consider that the poster was also issuing a warning, rather than a condemnation? I believe that we should warn people of the LSM, including its history. I am troubled that many college students will begin to follow the LSM denomination without understanding the history, practices, theology, etc...

Praise be to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
My own reality? This is the reality as I see it -
A person who was not witness to the events has claimed certain things were said.
When asked to provide evidence they have offered no evidence to substantiate their claim except one written account.
The written account they offered as evidence is found to not support their claim at all - it is clearly taken out of context, having nothing to do whatsoever with the doctrine of the Trinity.
That person is therefore engaging in history fabrication - they have not even admitted a healthy degree of uncertainty about the events they were not even witness to, or to the possibility that they could be wrong.
Despite all this that person expects us to accept their statements as fact and cries foul when challenged that their version of events may not match the reality.
02-11-2017 12:05 PM
Terry
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
That's not a condemnation that's a warning. I and Drake are possibly the only two on here that have no reason to fabricate history or spread rumors or sayings and things that did not happen. That is because we hold no resentment against the local churches or Witness Lee, of things that happened 40 years ago.
Whether it happened 40 years, 25 years or oven 10 years ago, any non-political correct report on the events is considered a fabrication and those brothers who were witnesses to the events are regarded as liars.
Certainly no one on this forum has any reason to fabricate history. Rather due to events in LC history caused different ones to leave. Instead of cursing these ones when they leave, why not bless them? That would certainly diffuse any strong reactions one way or another. One verse I tend to refer to that's appropriate in principle to LC history is Isaiah 5:20

Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil;
Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness;
Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!
02-09-2017 06:07 PM
leastofthese
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
That's not a condemnation that's a warning. I and Drake are possibly the only two on here that have no reason to fabricate history or spread rumors or sayings and things that did not happen. That is because we hold no resentment against the local churches or Witness Lee, of things that happened 40 years ago. I have already called out one member for making up things that someone said which they did not say.
Evangelical, I hope that you see that other people on this forum have no reason to fabricate history or spread rumors. I "met the church" in 2015 and left in 2016. I actually knew nothing of the church's checkered past when I left. It seems that you may have, once again, created your own little reality to create another strawman argument.

Another thought - did you consider that the poster was also issuing a warning, rather than a condemnation? I believe that we should warn people of the LSM, including its history. I am troubled that many college students will begin to follow the LSM denomination without understanding the history, practices, theology, etc...

Praise be to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
02-07-2017 01:32 PM
Terry
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post

Perhaps many of the "accusations" which LSM has long associated with the devil, are actually God's speaking to them from their conscience.
Such is the case with turmoils that resulted in quarantines. Brothers reacting because their conscience is bothered by events and behaviors occurring in the recovery. In turn being quarantined for reacting and responding. Anyone with a sound conscience it's normal to respond. We're created with a mind, emotion, and will. We're not created to where we can turn off our conscience like a light switch.
On the other side of the coin, I can understand why some brothers are able to suppress their conscience. Being financially supported full time by localities and/or LSM, there's the anxiety of "what if I express my concerns? How will I provide my household?" At that point one must be "one with the brothers".
02-07-2017 10:54 AM
Ohio
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
Stating truths about sins is not something that will set a person free. It may not have occurred to you but "the truth" is not the truth concerning the negative things (sin, evil etc) but the positive things. You are talking about the wrong kind of truth, the negative truth. Even though Jesus's disciples were sinners, and he was a friend of sinners. Jesus did not engage in continued negative speaking about a person's sin. This is what I mean by negative speaking.The one who engages in speaking the truth in a negative way is the devil - that is why he is called the accuser. Now the accusations may be 100% truthful, but it is still negative speaking.
When the devil tempted Jesus in the wilderness, he quoted scripture and spoke the truth in a "positive" way -- "since you are the Son of God ..."

And so with us. Many of Satan's temptations to us are not accusations at all, but rather "pleasantries" that oppose righteousness.

Perhaps many of the "accusations" which LSM has long associated with the devil, are actually God's speaking to them from their conscience.
02-07-2017 10:28 AM
Nell
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
Stating truths about sins is not something that will set a person free. It may not have occurred to you but "the truth" is not the truth concerning the negative things (sin, evil etc) but the positive things. You are talking about the wrong kind of truth, the negative truth. Even though Jesus's disciples were sinners, and he was a friend of sinners. Jesus did not engage in continued negative speaking about a person's sin. This is what I mean by negative speaking.The one who engages in speaking the truth in a negative way is the devil - that is why he is called the accuser. Now the accusations may be 100% truthful, but it is still negative speaking.
Who told you this? Witness Lee? Did you make it up? Cite your case. Scripture? Nee clearly disagrees with you.

You do not tell me what to think, and neither do you put words in my mouth. The "wrong kind of truth"? Really? I stated clearly that there is no "negative" truth or "positive" truth...simply "truth".

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

The Devil didn't "speak the truth in a negative way". That he spoke the truth at all by quoting Scripture...he was still a liar...the father of lies and is incapable of speaking truth.

Matt. 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Jesus came to save his people from their sins. He exposed the sins of people continually, not as a weapon, but for their/our salvation. He is a sinner's friend because He told the truth. It is truly God's mercy that the sins of men are exposed. Otherwise we would be left in the strong delusion of the Devil. We would be left believing that truth is relative to the "influence[d] by men, or by circumstances, or by his own desires." -WNee

2 Thess. 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:


I pray that we all become lovers of truth.

This is so far off topic...my fault...I apologize.

Nell
02-06-2017 09:10 PM
Evangelical
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nell View Post
So yet again you lose track of and/or change the subject. We were talking about forgive and forget. I'll summarize for you: I remember what happened to me. I forgave. I'm not the one "repeating". For self preservation, I ended my association with LC leadership. If anyone repeats its abuse of the LC faithful, its the LC leadership.

What? I think I'm helping folks on this site. Did you read what Ohio just said? Did you read what Terry said. No? Regardless. You don't tell me what to think.

So...lets stop talking about "negativity" and talk about "truth" as I suggested and you ignored.

Here's what Watchman Nee said about truth:
Absolute loyalty to the Truth is a matter that must have priority in the life of every Christian worker. It is possible, and indeed it not infrequently happens, that a worker modifies the Truth because he is influenced by men, or by circumstances, or by his own desires. The truth is absolute, and it demands undeviating loyalty of all men under all circumstances. All we possess we can sacrifice if need be, but the Truth we dare not sacrifice. We must never seek to bend it to our purpose, but must always bow to it.
The Normal Christian Worker, Watchman Nee

There was nothing about "negative speaking".

Nell
Stating truths about sins is not something that will set a person free. It may not have occurred to you but "the truth" is not the truth concerning the negative things (sin, evil etc) but the positive things. You are talking about the wrong kind of truth, the negative truth. Even though Jesus's disciples were sinners, and he was a friend of sinners. Jesus did not engage in continued negative speaking about a person's sin. This is what I mean by negative speaking.The one who engages in speaking the truth in a negative way is the devil - that is why he is called the accuser. Now the accusations may be 100% truthful, but it is still negative speaking.
02-06-2017 09:06 PM
Evangelical
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Lee and the Blendeds have repeated their condemnations on the whole of Christianity for much longer than 40 years. Have you informed them about how this is "something else, causing negativity and harm because it is the fruit of the tree of knowledge?"

No? I didn't think so.

Evangelical, you love to lecture others, yet you don't live by those lectures yourself. The Lord had a word for this, starts with an "h" and ends with a "y."
holy? heavenly? happy?
02-06-2017 08:11 PM
Terry
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Igzy View Post
His mind is on auto-pilot.
Same can be said for many. You check your conscience, reason, etc at the door. Don't question what you're hearing from LSM/DCP. Whatever is spoken elicits the automated Amen response. Whether it's something promoting the ministry, the latest building project, or the latest Christian church being ridiculed. I've been there. I've heard it.
02-06-2017 07:57 PM
Nell
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
Remembering is one thing. Repeating them over and over again continually, 40 years later, is something else.

Do not think you are helping anyone on this site. To the contrary, your words are causing negativity and harm because it is the fruit of the tree of knowledge.
So yet again you lose track of and/or change the subject. We were talking about forgive and forget. I'll summarize for you: I remember what happened to me. I forgave. I'm not the one "repeating". For self preservation, I ended my association with LC leadership. If anyone repeats its abuse of the LC faithful, its the LC leadership.

What? I think I'm helping folks on this site. Did you read what Ohio just said? Did you read what Terry said. No? Regardless. You don't tell me what to think.

So...lets stop talking about "negativity" and talk about "truth" as I suggested and you ignored.

Here's what Watchman Nee said about truth:
Absolute loyalty to the Truth is a matter that must have priority in the life of every Christian worker. It is possible, and indeed it not infrequently happens, that a worker modifies the Truth because he is influenced by men, or by circumstances, or by his own desires. The truth is absolute, and it demands undeviating loyalty of all men under all circumstances. All we possess we can sacrifice if need be, but the Truth we dare not sacrifice. We must never seek to bend it to our purpose, but must always bow to it.
The Normal Christian Worker, Watchman Nee

There was nothing about "negative speaking".

Nell
02-06-2017 07:35 PM
Ohio
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
Just like there is no record for Lee being called the 4th person of the Trinity.
Apparently you cannot read.

It was quoted profusely on another thread, but you didn't like what you read, so you twisted the meaning. Why don't you ask those who were there?

Also, why don't you read the Introductions forum. Many stories are there.
02-06-2017 07:29 PM
Ohio
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
Remembering is one thing. Repeating them over and over again continually, 40 years later, is something else.

Do not think you are helping anyone on this site. To the contrary, your words are causing negativity and harm because it is the fruit of the tree of knowledge.
Lee and the Blendeds have repeated their condemnations on the whole of Christianity for much longer than 40 years. Have you informed them about how this is "something else, causing negativity and harm because it is the fruit of the tree of knowledge?"

No? I didn't think so.

Evangelical, you love to lecture others, yet you don't live by those lectures yourself. The Lord had a word for this, starts with an "h" and ends with a "y."
02-06-2017 06:04 PM
Evangelical
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nell View Post
1. to forgive means to forget. This is not in the Bible but it means if we still hold onto negative experience from even 40 years ago we have not truly forgiven from the heart. Forgiving from the heart is a way we can obey the second commandment....
Remembering is one thing. Repeating them over and over again continually, 40 years later, is something else.

Do not think you are helping anyone on this site. To the contrary, your words are causing negativity and harm because it is the fruit of the tree of knowledge.
02-06-2017 05:57 PM
Evangelical
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Thanks Nell, great comments.

Lee was able to manipulate numerous saints with his demands to "forgive and forget." Yet there is no record of him ever apologizing specifically to the saints for all the damages he and his sons had caused.

As someone once said, "you know it is abuse when the victims are blamed for all their pain."
Just like there is no record for Lee being called the 4th person of the Trinity.
02-06-2017 05:14 PM
Nell
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Another hypocrisy is playing the "tree of knowledge" card.

Have you ever seen or heard of a "ministry" that could more accurately epitomize the "tree of knowledge" than that of Witess Lee? It's all about "knowledge". Knowledge originally spoken by Lee, reduced to print by the family business. Packaged and re-packaged for forced feeding to the faithful.

Anyone can read the Bible, but to eat from the "ministree" you have to sell out and join a group to have it explained to you. In the absence of understanding, just keep reading in the most recent iteration then quote until you turn blue...then start all over. This is the "tree of knowledge".

Nell
02-06-2017 01:31 PM
Terry
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nell View Post
Is the truth "negative" or "positive"? Neither. It's simply "the truth". WL, et al, have hidden behind this "negative speaking" fallacy to manipulate the membership while they hide behind the truth of their sinful behavior. The phrase "negative speaking" used as a weapon against the saints who tell the truth makes the demons very happy.
The negative speaking tactic is something I've seen not just in the church, but in current events. What by liberals last week in Berkeley is no different than what you'd find in the local churches. That is a desire to shut down those with contrasting points of view (aka Negative Speaking).
So if a speaker or writer is presenting the truth, and the truth contradicts groupthink, the truth must be suppressed as negative speaking.
02-06-2017 01:26 PM
Ohio
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
That's not a condemnation that's a warning. I and Drake are possibly the only two on here that have no reason to fabricate history or spread rumors or sayings and things that did not happen. That is because we hold no resentment against the local churches or Witness Lee, of things that happened 40 years ago. I have already called out one member for making up things that someone said which they did not say.

There are a few points I'd like to make:

1. to forgive means to forget. This is not in the Bible but it means if we still hold onto negative experience from even 40 years ago we have not truly forgiven from the heart. Forgiving from the heart is a way we can obey the second commandment.
2. Our forgiveness is not dependent upon another person's repentance. That is, forgiveness should happen regardless of whether they have repented or not. That is, biblical forgiveness is not contractual or based on right or wrong (the tree of knowledge).
3. Continued negative speaking makes demons happy - Satan is the accuser of the brethren.
4. When God chooses someone as leader, He does not require them to "step down" if they make a mistake. Leaders having to resign or step down is a concept that organizations of man (and denominations) hold. But in God's kingdom leaders who make mistakes hold their position. David, Moses, Noah, Abraham etc all made mistakes, but still maintained their position of leadership.
This is so hypocritical.

Titus Chu was told to "step down" for wanting clean sheets, allowing drums in the Young People's meetings, and publishing his books.
02-06-2017 01:22 PM
Ohio
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nell View Post
Just because you REMEMBER experiences from 40 years ago does not mean you have not forgiven. I have learned from my LC experiences which were decidedly negative with LC leadership. I have forgiven their trespasses, as they asked for, but I will NEVER be able to forget, because that made me who I am today. What happened to me is an ever present warning not to make the same mistakes I made 40 years ago. You, sir, do not know the hearts of men. There's a good reason "forgive and forget" is not in the Bible...perhaps it's that fallen man does not have that capacity.
Thanks Nell, great comments.

Lee was able to manipulate numerous saints with his demands to "forgive and forget." Yet there is no record of him ever apologizing specifically to the saints for all the damages he and his sons had caused.

As someone once said, "you know it is abuse when the victims are blamed for all their pain."
02-06-2017 01:16 PM
Ohio
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
That's not a condemnation that's a warning. I and Drake are possibly the only two on here that have no reason to fabricate history or spread rumors or sayings and things that did not happen. That is because we hold no resentment against the local churches or Witness Lee, of things that happened 40 years ago. I have already called out one member for making up things that someone said which they did not say.
Excuse me, Evangelical. You and Drake are the only ones who have reason to fabricate history. Hundreds of posters have given testimony to their sad and painful experiences in the LC's, and so they left. You, however, have stayed, trading your conscience for loyalty to Lee.

I left after 30 active years serving in the LC's specifically because:
1. Reading Nee's book TNCCL with the other serving ones opened my eyes to see how far LSM had veered off course.

2. The pending quarantines and lawsuits against GLA LC's.

3. The accumulated systemic abuses in a loveless program.
02-06-2017 01:01 PM
Nell
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

1. to forgive means to forget. This is not in the Bible but it means if we still hold onto negative experience from even 40 years ago we have not truly forgiven from the heart. Forgiving from the heart is a way we can obey the second commandment.

At least you have acknowledged that you are teaching that which the Bible does NOT.

Just because you REMEMBER experiences from 40 years ago does not mean you have not forgiven. I have learned from my LC experiences which were decidedly negative with LC leadership. I have forgiven their trespasses, as they asked for, but I will NEVER be able to forget, because that made me who I am today. What happened to me is an ever present warning not to make the same mistakes I made 40 years ago. You, sir, do not know the hearts of men. There's a good reason "forgive and forget" is not in the Bible...perhaps it's that fallen man does not have that capacity.

2. Our forgiveness is not dependent upon another person's repentance. That is, forgiveness should happen regardless of whether they have repented or not. That is, biblical forgiveness is not contractual or based on right or wrong (the tree of knowledge).

Yeah...we've read all those self-help books too, but thanks for your patronage.

3. Continued negative speaking makes demons happy - Satan is the accuser of the brethren.

Is the truth "negative" or "positive"? Neither. It's simply "the truth". WL, et al, have hidden behind this "negative speaking" fallacy to manipulate the membership while they hide behind the truth of their sinful behavior. The phrase "negative speaking" used as a weapon against the saints who tell the truth makes the demons very happy.

The LC has aligned itself with the accuser of the brethren against those who tell the truth.

4. When God chooses someone as leader, He does not require them to "step down" if they make a mistake. Leaders having to resign or step down is a concept that organizations of man (and denominations) hold. But in God's kingdom leaders who make mistakes hold their position. David, Moses, Noah, Abraham etc all made mistakes, but still maintained their position of leadership.

So the sins of leaders is OK with God? It's clearly OK with you.
02-05-2017 06:53 PM
Evangelical
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leastofthese View Post
Evangelical, isn't it obvious to you that your post is 100% condemnation and accusation?

As I read many of your posts, I wonder if you would have the same comments if you were not hiding behind your computer?

Mark 12:31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’There is no commandment greater than these.”

And who is your neighbor?
That's not a condemnation that's a warning. I and Drake are possibly the only two on here that have no reason to fabricate history or spread rumors or sayings and things that did not happen. That is because we hold no resentment against the local churches or Witness Lee, of things that happened 40 years ago. I have already called out one member for making up things that someone said which they did not say.

There are a few points I'd like to make:

1. to forgive means to forget. This is not in the Bible but it means if we still hold onto negative experience from even 40 years ago we have not truly forgiven from the heart. Forgiving from the heart is a way we can obey the second commandment.
2. Our forgiveness is not dependent upon another person's repentance. That is, forgiveness should happen regardless of whether they have repented or not. That is, biblical forgiveness is not contractual or based on right or wrong (the tree of knowledge).
3. Continued negative speaking makes demons happy - Satan is the accuser of the brethren.
4. When God chooses someone as leader, He does not require them to "step down" if they make a mistake. Leaders having to resign or step down is a concept that organizations of man (and denominations) hold. But in God's kingdom leaders who make mistakes hold their position. David, Moses, Noah, Abraham etc all made mistakes, but still maintained their position of leadership.
02-05-2017 06:48 PM
Evangelical
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Indiana View Post
Actually, brother Evan, You are addressing inaccurately OBW who has posited a very weighty matter for leaders and those with a conscience to ponder.

Darby Bible Translation
But we have rejected the hidden things of shame, not walking in deceit, nor falsifying the word of God, but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every conscience of men before God.
Of things that happened 40 years ago...
02-05-2017 05:22 PM
leastofthese
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
Your post is 99% condemnation and accusation and 1% false humility. That means you are allied with demons not with Christ.
Evangelical, isn't it obvious to you that your post is 100% condemnation and accusation?

As I read many of your posts, I wonder if you would have the same comments if you were not hiding behind your computer?

Mark 12:31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’There is no commandment greater than these.”

And who is your neighbor?
02-05-2017 04:33 PM
Indiana
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
Your post is 99% condemnation and accusation and 1% false humility. That means you are allied with demons not with Christ.
Actually, brother Evan, You are addressing inaccurately OBW who has posited a very weighty matter for leaders and those with a conscience to ponder.

Darby Bible Translation
But we have rejected the hidden things of shame, not walking in deceit, nor falsifying the word of God, but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every conscience of men before God.
02-05-2017 10:40 AM
Igzy
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Igzy,

I advise caution on labeling a brother as a fool.

Don't brazenly cross lines so clearly spelled out in scripture.

Seriously, for your own sake.

Drake
In my defense I didn't exactly call Benson himself a fool. My point was a foolish person who convinces other people he's not foolish is still deceiving them. Even if he is sincere. But point taken. How about a foolish sincere person? Is that better?
02-05-2017 08:56 AM
JJ
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

For once I agree with Drake here.

http://biblehub.com/matthew/5-23.htm

http://biblehub.com/romans/14-11.htm

http://biblehub.com/james/4-11.htm

Our Lord Jesus and His apostles did warn us about judging our brothers, and calling them fools.

Discernment is good, judgment goes too far.
02-05-2017 06:25 AM
Drake
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
This warning rings a little hollow from a guy who has invested his entire lifetime in a system built on the condemnation of other Christians.
Don't take my word for it. Read the Bible.
02-05-2017 02:07 AM
Ohio
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Igzy,
I advise caution on labeling a brother as a fool.
Don't brazenly cross lines so clearly spelled out in scripture.
Seriously, for your own sake.
This warning rings a little hollow from a guy who has invested his entire lifetime in a system built on the condemnation of other Christians.
02-04-2017 08:32 PM
Drake
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Igzy View Post
A sincere fool is a demagogue to those who see him as more than that.
Igzy,

I advise caution on labeling a brother as a fool.

Don't brazenly cross lines so clearly spelled out in scripture.

Seriously, for your own sake.

Drake
02-04-2017 07:26 PM
Igzy
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Have you ever heard Benson speak? He does not say popular crowd pleasing things. It is logical and rational from his point if view.
Yes, I've heard Benson speak. I was in Texas in the 70s. I heard him many times. I've spoken to him personally. Benson was a sincere, sweet brother. But he also checked his brain at the door about 45 years ago. Benson decided early on that the best path was to adopt Witness Lee's thoughts in everything and to reject all others. He's a willing and all-out Lee clone. The story is he even pray-read The Economy of God. His mind is on auto-pilot. He thinks if he thinks anything contrary to what Lee thought that is the work of the devil. Sincere? Yes. Dangerous? Absolutely. This is the kind of mind that leads to statements like "the growth process can't continue outside the Recovery."

Sorry, I'll take my leaders who have some kind of fail-safe mechanism. Benson has none. He's flying the bombers to Moscow and he'll be damned if he'll listen to anyone telling him to turn back. Don't even bother to try. Moscow is toast.
02-04-2017 06:38 PM
Igzy
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Well then, that is not demagoguery.
A sincere fool is a demagogue to those who see him as more than that.
02-04-2017 05:43 PM
Drake
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Igzy View Post
I know he believes it. In fact, I almost made that point in my last post.
But that's no excuse. He should know better. He should know he cannot know what he claims to know.
That's a lot of nos and knows, I know. But you know what I mean.
Well then, that is not demagoguery.
02-04-2017 05:38 PM
Igzy
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Right. So we disagree on the definition of "not going on with God".

What Benson said is not to control. He really believes it. That is not demagoguery. He was sincere. Really sincere. Have you ever heard Benson speak? He does not say popular crowd pleasing things. It is logical and rational from his point if view.

I know that does not fit the "Igzy LCM Mantra". Sorry about that.

Drake
I know he believes it. In fact, I almost made that point in my last post.

But that's no excuse. He should know better. He should know he cannot know what he claims to know.

That's a lot of nos and knows, I know. But you know what I mean.
02-04-2017 05:21 PM
Drake
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Igzy View Post
You said there was a difference between growing and going on with God, as if not going on meant being backslidden. But not going on could also simply mean not making progress, not advancing and actually growing.

Benson's statement was that you could not grow as a Christian outside the LCs. Even if he meant something other than what the words plainly stated he should have known how it would be taken by most people. And I'm sure he did. This kind of equivocation is common with demagogues. The word had its intended effect. By the time he or you tap dances about it the audience he intended to influence is long gone.
Right. So we disagree on the definition of "not going on with God".

What Benson said is not to control. He really believes it. That is not demagoguery. He was sincere. Really sincere. Have you ever heard Benson speak? He does not say popular crowd pleasing things. It is logical and rational from his point if view.

I know that does not fit the "Igzy LCM Mantra". Sorry about that.

Drake
02-04-2017 05:19 PM
Ohio
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Igzy View Post
You said there was a difference between growing and going on with God, as if not going on meant being backslidden. But not going on could also simply mean not making progress, not advancing and actually growing.

Benson's statement was that you could not grow as a Christian outside the LCs. Even if he meant something other than what the words plainly stated he should have known how they would be taken by most people. And I'm sure he did. This kind of equivocation is common with demagogues. The word had its intended effect. By the time he or you tap dances about it the audience he intended to influence is long gone.
IIRC, BP said there was no "sanctification" for those who leave.
02-04-2017 04:51 PM
Igzy
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Well okay then.

You said going on with God means growing.

What did I say on this point?
You said there was a difference between growing and going on with God, as if not going on meant being backslidden. But not going on could also simply mean not making progress, not advancing and actually growing.

Benson's statement was that you could not grow as a Christian outside the LCs. Even if he meant something other than what the words plainly stated he should have known how they would be taken by most people. And I'm sure he did. This kind of equivocation is common with demagogues. The word had its intended effect. By the time he or you tap dances about it the audience he intended to influence is long gone.
02-04-2017 04:39 PM
Drake
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Igzy View Post
I'm afraid you did not. If you were really interested in dialogue this would be the point that you'd try to clarify. But you know in your heart there isn't a real difference .
Well okay then.

You said going on with God means growing.

What did I say on this point?
02-04-2017 04:25 PM
Igzy
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Igzy,

I explained it well enough.
I'm afraid you did not. If you were really interested in dialogue this would be the point that you'd try to clarify. But you know in your heart there isn't a real difference and don't want to admit it.

What did Benson mean? I'll tell you. He meant only the Body grows, so you must be in the Body to be a part of growth and the LCM is the only place where the Body really exists. Of course, that is a false presumption as well. But that's what he thinks.

But in the end it was just another unethical way to try to control people.
02-04-2017 04:12 PM
Drake
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Igzy,

I explained it well enough. We hold different views and at this point we are repeating ourselves.

Thanks for the dialogue.

Drake
02-04-2017 03:49 PM
Igzy
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Benson did not say what you said he said above. He said "there is no way for the growth process to continue." Perhaps you see them as synonymous because you do not understand the difference.
I noticed you didn't bother to tell us what the difference is. Pray tell, what is it? To me going on with God means growing. I don't see a difference.

But in fact, it doesn't matter because it's just as absurd and unethical to tell people that if they leave your group there is no way for the growth process to continue. And how the heck would Benson Phillips know this stuff anyway? Is he all-knowing or something?

I'm aware many groups have made stupid claims in the past about their group being the best, or salvation being impossible without them, or being the only overcomers, or the growth process being dependent on them, or something else equally inane. The difference is the vast majority of the members of those groups and even the leaders don't believe that rot anymore because they've been enlightened, even if some obscure, archaic clause in their creed says otherwise. Most of my family is Catholic. None of them believe you need to be a Catholic to be saved.

The LCM is different. The leaders still push this delusional stuff about the growth process only happening there, or whatever else they can use to scare people into staying. Leaving the LCM is as hard for some as leaving any controlling cult. The pressure to stay is much more intense than any group you mentioned.
02-04-2017 01:03 PM
Terry
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Terry,

Every elder, co-worker, responsible one., or shepherd who accepts the responsibility of leading the flock in a locality is accountable directly to the Lord and to other responsible ones.

I also happen to believe as members of the one Body we have some accountability to each other.

Why do you ask?

Drake
Having had a responsible brother for a relative, I've been told much the same as you have posted. Yet my question remains unanswered. Accountability to brothers and sisters within each locality. In practice I see more accountability to co-workers (Anaheim/Cleveland) than to brothers and sisters within respective localities.
In accepting the responsibility of leading the flock, it's one thing to accept the responsibility, but it's another to labor on the flock. That's the difference whether one is a shepherd or a hireling.
02-04-2017 09:31 AM
OBW
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
Ohio, you are starting to sound like the Pharisee rather than the one who says God have mercy on me a sinner. You may be right but your negative speaking can affect you. Don't become the very thing you are against. But I think this dialogue between former and current members of LC is good, it airs frustration, gets it all out there.
This from members of the sect that labels everyone else as mooing cows and the Whore of Babylon or her harlot daughters.

The problem with your defense is that it does not accept that there are righteous complaints to be lodged under Matt 18. But you think that the only "church" that has the right to hear the complaint is yours and since yours is the one standing charged, there is a serious conflict of interest. Those that should sit in judgment simply dismiss the charges because they are the ones being charged.

So let's see . . . . An admitted hierarchy of some kind = reprobate while "#1 is the Father, #2 is the Son, #3 is the Spirit, number #4 is Witness Lee, and we don't know who #5 is yet" is simply accepted as sound teaching from the scripture.

Or the scripture says to reject those who would be teachers but who are just filling their own bellies while the LRC says that we should be forgiving as Christ is to the sinner who made money on the business deal that all of the investor-members lost money on. Paul (the actual apostle) would have run Lee off in a heartbeat. He would not have called him unsaved but rather unworthy to be in any kind of place of spiritual authority, leadership, or teaching.

You dismiss things like Daystar and the sexual misconduct of Lee's son in his so-called "ministry office" with Lee's knowledge and complete lack of action. The forcing of Lee's debts onto the church in Taipei in the 50s. The willful "restoration" of another sexual deviant who could then write the ultimate work on authority that allowed him, and then later Lee, to be excused from any charge of misconduct. And the lies spoken about people like Jon Ingalls and Bill Mallons, among others, to deflect the scrutiny of that evil son that was still to be left in place in ministry.

And you guys think that staying there for 14 years was of my own doing and therefore my fault. I would declare that at least I saw the light and left. You stay and support the continued misdeeds, slander, and wanton mishandling of the scripture on a daily basis by your present and former leaders. It is from your mouth that Christians who believe and do the work of Christ are poor mooing cows while those who declare themselves as one with everyone, but only if they will come to you as the holders of everything "true." And stick your heads in the sand to keep from seeing anything that should suggest that you rethink.

But alas, I fear your place is set. You cannot entertain anything that the leadership calls "negative" because it could damage you. Is your faith that fragile? Is your God that impotent that He cannot protect you from evil and enlighten you with the truth? Must you be on the other side of a high, thick wall so that the notion of something else could never cause you to question. To challenge anything that has been presented to you?

It would appear to me that your defense against the financial and organizational misdeeds of your MOTA are beyond scrutiny. You pass them off as "old." But they are never old if they are not repented of. And repentance must also include repenting to those harmed by those deeds. But there was none, therefore the man must be left outside. Not allowed back in.

But he was never excluded. You have learned well from Nee that only God can deal with the top leader. They are the Deputy Authority and cannot be challenged in a common Matt 18 kind of way. Or dismissed as unfit to teach or lead under Paul's direction. And so you follow the third testament of the LRC. The writings of Nee and Lee. Words that dismiss and twist the actual word of God.


I must, and do declare "God have mercy on me a sinner." Every day. I cannot pretend to be without sin. But the account of the woman caught in adultery does not apply to Lee. That sinner is among the ones whom the scriptures lay heavy charges and exact a requirement of significant penalty for failure. Some of it in the age to come, but some of it in this age.

Lee would have gone to jail if someone had brought Daystar to the attention of the SEC. They invited the LRC membership to invest in a company. But that company was not alone. It was part of a structure of companies. But that company did not exist in the eyes of the government. When it was declare bankrupt, that was an internal claim. It was unable to file for bankruptcy because it didn't exist. It was a fantasy into which people were enticed to put their money. Not a company, but a name only. The company was never registered to exist, or to be dissolved. It was not authorized to take "investments" from anyone.

And many of those who lost their investments — you can declare them to be stupid for not checking things out better — they were never apologized to for the shill that the thing was And the money they lost while the top investors (Lee, his sons, and one or two others) actually made money. They were referred to later by Lee as having "lost their virginity" followed by a chuckle.

That is the man you revere and follow. A common criminal. Bernie Madoff on a smaller scale.
02-04-2017 08:43 AM
Drake
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Igzy View Post
Abuse of authority is the legacy of the LCM. You can split hairs and say it isn't "veneration" or "worship" if you want. That's just avoiding the larger fact. The truth is the LCM abuses authority to control members. Nee did it, Lee did it, Phillips did it, Chu did it, the Blendeds do it. I saw it over and over again in overt and subtle ways. Maybe you have a nice set of local elders. Lucky you. But your limited knowledge does not discredit the larger facts.

Any group that tells its members that they can't go on with God if they leave it is guilty of abuse. No matter how you spin it that is a fact. I suggest you honestly deal with this.

Is the LCM all bad? No. Does it seriously need to deal with the problem of abuse of authority before the Lord? Absolutely.
Igzy,

Benson did not say what you said he said above. He said "there is no way for the growth process to continue." Perhaps you see them as synonymous because you do not understand the difference. Maybe, here is where your limited and dated time in the local churches serves to your disadvantage. Not going on with God connotes someone has backslidden into a sinful condition. What Benson said in your quote did not say that.

Still, this is not unlike any other group religious or secular that hold convictions about their unique place in the grand scheme of things. News flash from the Baptists:

“As Baptist principles are peculiar to Baptists, every Baptist church, with all its appointments, from preacher to Sunday-school teacher, ought to stand, in the community where it holds forth the word, for something different from any other congregation.”
J. B. Gambrell (b. 1841- d.1921), Baptist pastor, university president, editor, seminary professor, denominational leader/statesman

Then there is this from the largest: Catechism of the Catholic Church -

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 - How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church, which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council [Vatican II] teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

For that matter Igzy, some regard ANY congregation that holds fundamentalist beliefs as authoritarian and to be avoided Evangelical or otherwise.

The net net is this. What Benson said, obviously, wasn't meant for you. Just like the above christian groups beliefs were not meant for you. Almost any group on the planet has a unique mission and they are not meant for you. Though you do not see it in yourself, you also exhibit the same tendencies in your posts in this forum when you insist others who don't accept your beliefs as willfully ignorant or some other derogatory mischaracterization.

Don't get me wrong, I am all for a spirited debate including your strong convictions. Yet if Benson or any of the leading brothers had exhibited a fraction of the pressure to conform to their beliefs as you would have me yours I would have left the local churches a very long time ago..... and still would today.

Drake
02-04-2017 06:55 AM
Igzy
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Considered and realized firsthand the false accusation of veneration, leader worship, and similar descriptors.
Abuse of authority is the legacy of the LCM. You can split hairs and say it isn't "veneration" or "worship" if you want. That's just avoiding the larger fact. The truth is the LCM abuses authority to control members. Nee did it, Lee did it, Phillips did it, Chu did it, the Blendeds do it. I saw it over and over again in overt and subtle ways. Maybe you have a nice set of local elders. Lucky you. But your limited knowledge does not discredit the larger facts.

Any group that tells its members that they can't go on with God if they leave it is guilty of abuse. No matter how you spin it that is a fact. I suggest you honestly deal with this.

Is the LCM all bad? No. Does it seriously need to deal with the problem of abuse of authority before the Lord? Absolutely.
02-03-2017 08:36 PM
Igzy
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
That is the main reason that a negative spirit of condemnation and slander has not persuaded me. Neither from a book or a post or communists or from a brother or an unbeliever.
I appreciate your post. But "a negative spirit of condemnation?" How about the spirit of trying to help those who might continue to be hurt by a spirit of spiritual pride and error which has manifestly hurt so many? What you dismiss as "condemnation" is actually the spirit of trying to bring some sense of perspective to the situation. I can tell you long for perspective. Well, it works both ways.

Is there blessing, enjoyment and purpose in the LCs? Of course. You testify to it. God works his perfection among the imperfect. That's to his glory!

But in return you should acknowledge that he is working just as mightily outside the LC. It is not fair for you to acknowledge your own failing then testify to your successes and say that makes up for it all without extending the same grace to others.

I totally understand thinking your way is the best. After all, you wouldn't be there if you didn't think that at some level. But really, isn't that just like rooting for the home team, or for your home town because it's yours and your preference?

God will work in the LCs in some capacity because he is great. The only thing I ask is you not take your claims of "uniqueness" so seriously that you diminish the work he is doing elsewhere. After all, most people who are getting saved, and for that matter most people you will meet in the New Jerusalem will have never even heard of the LCM. Realize that there is really no human way of you knowing that you are "God's best" or anything such thing for sure. God doesn't give us that insight.

In short, just take it down a notch or two. I'm sure you would like me to take the same advice.
02-03-2017 08:23 PM
Ohio
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Ohio, you just demonstrated it above! You said since Brother Lee said it then it must be false, so you accept the alternative explanation that besmirches Brother Nee.

Drake
No, not at all.

We have Witness Lee who made up some ridiculous story which requires us to believe that the church in Shanghai elders were total dunces when they excommunicated Nee in 1942, and we have other eyewitnesses who relate another story.

I no longer believe Lee's stories about Nee, nor do I believe many of the other tales of "persecution" I have heard over the years. When it comes to historical events, Lee is not a credible "witness."

I have left the story with that. Nee was martyred for his faith, and hopefully he did not stumble others.

If the reader wants to know about Watchman Nee, they should rely on credible and objective sources like Kinnear, Roberts, Hsu, Doyle, Kaung, and others. I would not trust Lee's account in Seer ... or other writers who base their books solely on Lee's written and spoken accounts.
02-03-2017 08:03 PM
Drake
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
No, you missed the point ... On purpose!

It simply discredits the fairy tale stories Lee told us about Nee.

When did I besmirch Nee?
Ohio, you just demonstrated it above! You said since Brother Lee said it then it must be false, so you accept the alternative explanation that besmirches Brother Nee.

Drake
02-03-2017 07:55 PM
Drake
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Igzy View Post
Then you don't know the history of your movement, and seemingly are content to remain ignorant.


This is the fallacy of the appeal the extreme. How did you go from Benson saying no growth can happen outside your movement to saying idol worship is okay. That's a big leap. But actually, now that I think about it, both are equally absurd, and demonic.



So the fact that I see real damage coming from excessive veneration of leaders means I am completely unscriptural in my view of what you call the "order in the Body?" This is more fallacy of the appeal to the extreme.

Let's talk about what the Bible really says about the Body. In no place does the Bible talk about the Body in terms of rank or authority. When the Bible talks about the gifted it talks about them as servants, not as lords. And if the Bible says anything about an "order in the Body" it is where it says to resist over-honoring the "comely" members and to seek to give more honor to the "uncomely" ones. In that case you should resist honoring Nee and Lee so much and seek to honor Lily Hsu more.

There is no mention of any "order in the Body" in any other context. Lee took the allegory of the Body to an extreme and added non-biblical ideas to it. It is your view that is unscriptural. I believe in honoring gifts and genuine leadership. I just don't believe in following blowhards, yes-men and the willfully ignorant. The Bible says try the spirits and the so-called apostles. And that's exactly what I intend to do. Once burned, twice shy.
Igzy,

I understand and know the history of the local churches including the storms, and the players, the old way, the new way, the issues, and all the shoutin' and hollerin' that came with it. I am very aware, considered all the arguments, been with dear ones on both sides, saw the mistakes, shed the tears. I have examined the false accusations that drove me to my knees on behalf of the Lords's interest and the accusers alike. Considered and realized firsthand the false accusation of veneration, leader worship, and similar descriptors. After all that has transpired, I am at peace to be right here in the local churches. The Lord reveals Himself, speaks to me, keeps me, I have a spiritual family very close to me, there are outreaches to unbelievers, there is the ministry of "each one has" in the Body, there is the building of the Body, and service in the Body according to 1 Corinthians 12. I find enlightenment from His Word, the teaching is orthodox and living and clearly presented in the power of the Spirit. It is convicting, exposing, and reveals my poverty and my shortcomings and my need to repent more and my need for more divine life. I laugh, I cry, I fall, my soul has been restored again and again. According to a burden from the Lord, I may serve Him in any number of ways. I love, care, and will fellowship with believers who do not meet with us sometimes in their places of worship. It has been in short, the most holistic experience of the christian life individually and corporately that I have ever encountered. I am kept by a vision, the truth, and a personal touch from the Lord. I do not think I have even scratched the surface with Him and have been compelled to pursue yet more.

That is the main reason that a negative spirit of condemnation and slander has not persuaded me. Neither from a book or a post or communists or from a brother or an unbeliever.

thanks
Drake
02-03-2017 06:32 PM
Ohio
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
Ohio, you are starting to sound like the Pharisee rather than the one who says God have mercy on me a sinner. You may be right but your negative speaking can affect you. Don't become the very thing you are against. But I think this dialogue between former and current members of LC is good, it airs frustration, gets it all out there.
Or, perhaps it sounds a little like the Lord when He rebuked the hypocritical Pharisees with His eight "Woe's."
02-03-2017 06:29 PM
Ohio
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Ohio,

With this argument you justify besmirching Watchman Nee.

Drake
No, you missed the point ... On purpose!

It simply discredits the fairy tale stories Lee told us about Nee.

When did I besmirch Nee?
02-03-2017 06:29 PM
Drake
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Yes. We all made choices. But for me those choices were made in a vacuum of information. There was a flavor of spirituality in everything said. It was wrapped in scripture. It was just so much coming so fast that it was not possible to stop and recognize what did not add up.

You take the approach that everyone has all the knowledge they need to make a sound decision. That just isn't always the case.

You're logic would declare that those that were members of a reasonable sane Christian sect in the SF Bay area were aware of everything when they decided to move to South America. And then were fully aware of what was going on when they decided that drinking the Kool-Aid was the right way to go.
OBW, though I disagree with most of what you said in this post you have put thought into it and took the time to document it so I will address your points individually. I might mess up the format but let's see.

It is possible to be tricked. I suppose it is possible to be tricked for 14 years. I just don't think it is credible that someone were tricked for such a long period of time in an Orwellian environment. If I experienced what you describe I would have bolted from the premises. My experience is different than yours. From day one it was heavenly and blissful and now it is heavenly and joyful. There were valleys along the way. Many. I left at one point but returned and no one keeps me here. I stay because that is the choice I make.

Now citing the tragedy in Jonestown was a familiar tactic of the early detractors of the local churches decades ago. It's unfair to correlate. Those folks were really trapped. Drink or be shot. Anyone can walk out at any time. You could have also.

Quote:
We are sure that somewhere along the way that those people bought into something that they didn't really think through clearly. And they weren't just a bunch of mental midgets incapable of seeing through things.

The difference is that after the fact I see something that you clearly have not seen. The LRC is not a safe place. It is not a logical choice in light of the actual scripture. But if there is a garlic room in which up is down and left is right, it is in the LRC. It is the place where demeaning of brothers and sisters in Christ is done in the name of oneness. Where every meeting except the Lord's table is regulated from Anaheim yet you can't see the denomination in it. Where the understanding of the scripture must e checked against what Lee said about it. And were some parts of scripture are essentially excised from the book because Lee said it was "natural" or not "in God's economy."
All scripture is God-breathed. Let's start there. That means that whatever the message is, it is in the Bible for our instruction and enlightenment. There are words from the devil in the Bible. There are words from haters, mockers, unbelievers. There are mistakes recorded in the Bible. And yes, there are words that are natural. I do not excise those from scripture. No one I know does.

There has been criticism oft leveled at the use of HWMW. Well, then that is no different than using shared material in most Sunday School classes. Everyone gets on the same page. I have tried it both ways. I like the structured teaching approach. I also like what Brother Lee and Brother Nee have to say. Why should that bother you?

I'm so happy in this lovely place rings very true for me.

Quote:
You are right that no one is detaining anyone. But when the dogma is that anyone who leaves will be spiritually bereft, wandering in a wasteland, there is a psychological hold. And when the rhetoric about how everyone else's doctrines and practices can only get them to the level of "daughters of Babylon," then you have been psychologically conditioned to refrain from joining with any other Christians.

Once again, all in the name of oneness.

Your leader was a master at the use of logical error to gain followers in spiritual error.
I addressed this in my note to Igzy.


Quote:
Declare that I am just a bitter one who left. That I just want to complain. Actually, I do not. But I cannot fathom just leaving the few that I still know in a place that I believe is so nearly evil in its source when there are so many good Christians and Christian organizations in which to find excellent fellowship and "pasture."

The book that this thread discussed is full of first and second-hand evidence that there is something rotten in the very core of what we call the Local Churches. Their leaders were corrupt in ways that Paul would have had run out of town over. The insistence on "one trumpet" would never have been allowed to disguise just one more "I'm of." This time "of Lee."

You will come back and say that what I have said is not true.

So what? You don't even really consider anything that is said with more detail and support that should make you reconsider. You just dismiss it. Say that we are just bitter. If I didn't know people actually suffering in there, I would never look back.
You made a choice and you are sticking to it. Others are also making a choice to stay but not because they are entrapped or less enlightened than you. What reasons are they giving you for staying? No one is controlling anyone.

Thanks
Drake
02-03-2017 05:50 PM
Igzy
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
You describe a group that I am not familiar with.
Then you don't know the history of your movement, and seemingly are content to remain ignorant.

Quote:
Even so, I do not view Benson's comment as of the devil at all. Of course, he feels that way. I'd be surprised if he did not feel that way. He is a leading brother. Did you expect him to say something like "by the way, feel free to go meet with the Catholic Church because idol worship has its merits"? Really.
This is the fallacy of the appeal the extreme. How did you go from Benson saying no growth can happen outside your movement to saying idol worship is okay. That's a big leap. But actually, now that I think about it, both are equally absurd, and demonic.


Quote:
Your view of order in the Body in completely unscriptural.
So the fact that I see real damage coming from excessive veneration of leaders means I am completely unscriptural in my view of what you call the "order in the Body?" This is more fallacy of the appeal to the extreme.

Let's talk about what the Bible really says about the Body. In no place does the Bible talk about the Body in terms of rank or authority. When the Bible talks about the gifted it talks about them as servants, not as lords. And if the Bible says anything about an "order in the Body" it is where it says to resist over-honoring the "comely" members and to seek to give more honor to the "uncomely" ones. In that case you should resist honoring Nee and Lee so much and seek to honor Lily Hsu more.

There is no mention of any "order in the Body" in any other context. Lee took the allegory of the Body to an extreme and added non-biblical ideas to it. It is your view that is unscriptural. I believe in honoring gifts and genuine leadership. I just don't believe in following blowhards, yes-men and the willfully ignorant. The Bible says try the spirits and the so-called apostles. And that's exactly what I intend to do. Once burned, twice shy.
02-03-2017 05:12 PM
Drake
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Igzy View Post
Drake, once again I'll say it--hopefully now you can consider directly and honestly.

It is my feeling that the LCM venerates Nee and Lee excessively and to a fault. This leads to many offences, such as telling impressionable young people that if they leave the movement they are leaving "God's best." Benson Phillips is on record as saying that if you leave the movement "there is no way for the growth process to continue." That's a quote. I and many here are witness to such claims.

Simply put such claims are of the devil. They and their ilk have wreaked much damage. Of this point you seem in complete denial.

In order for this mindset to be taken down, the idols of Nee and Lee need to come down. The point is not to label them as devils, the point is to label them as fallen men, and nothing more, not divine seers, not MOTAs, just men, like the rest of us, and thus the movement as just another movement.

To that end anything that helps that cause should be welcomed. And you should welcome it. This is not to say that we should embrace lies, just that when a totem is cut down to size we all should rejoice.

Igzy,

I consider directly and honestly with each one of you. Here is where Brother Nee's response to the accusation about "living with a woman" is also applicable. Same thing between you and me.

You describe a group that I am not familiar with. I do not venerate Brother Lee or Brother Nee. I do not know any who do. Perhaps over the years maybe there have been a few who did. Yet, I am not a mind reader. Zeal si not veneration. but zeal sometimes comes and often goes. That may be misinterpreted. I have already explained my point of view earlier in this thread. You can read it there if you really want to understand my view.

Now I do not agree with everything every brother says be that Brother Lee, Nee, Phillips, etc. or the brother sitting next to me. Yet, neither am I a trigger finger ready to condemn. Even so, I do not view Benson's comment as of the devil at all. Of course, he feels that way. I'd be surprised if he did not feel that way. He is a leading brother. Did you expect him to say something like "by the way, feel free to go meet with the Catholic Church because idol worship has its merits"? Really.

Sorry Igzy, here is where we will also disagree. Your view of order in the Body in completely unscriptural. God has made arrangements in the Body and there are some who are more gifted than others. All members are not the same in gift or contribution. All may build the Body but not all are the same members. Some more, some less. That is not veneration that is respect for God's arrangement in the Body. The least members, or one talented ones. are crucial to build the Body but their function is not the same.

Finally, what I welcome is an honest and frank conversation. I believe this one with you has been for the most part.

Thanks
Drake
02-03-2017 04:48 PM
Evangelical
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Good point!
Sorry bro, when you say good point that's still from the tree of good and evil. Just keep taking the third way. Let's lead by example.
02-03-2017 04:46 PM
Evangelical
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Igzy View Post
Drake, once again I'll say it--hopefully now you can consider directly and honestly.

It is my feeling that the LCM venerates Nee and Lee excessively and to a fault. This leads to many offences, such as telling impressionable young people that if they leave the movement they are leaving "God's best." Benson Phillips is on record as saying that if you leave the movement "there is no way for the growth process to continue." That's a quote. I and many here are witness to such claims.

Simply put such claims are of the devil. They and their ilk have wreaked much damage. Of this point you seem in complete denial.

In order for this mindset to be taken down, the idols of Nee and Lee need to come down. The point is not to label them as devils, the point is to label them as fallen men, and nothing more, not divine seers, not MOTAs, just men, like the rest of us, and thus the movement as just another movement.

To that end anything that helps that cause should be welcomed. And you should welcome it. This is not to say that we should embrace lies, just that when a totem is cut down to size we all should rejoice.
There are also those elders/leaders in the LC that say "those in the denominations may be more spiritually advanced and mature than us". Somewhat balances out Benson's statement.
02-03-2017 04:44 PM
Drake
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
OK, but also be careful not to speak from the tree of knowledge, this statement itself is a little prideful, as if you have won some sort of victory.

I also would like to know a bit more about you. There is a high degree of suspicion and lack of trust towards us because of our affiliation with the LC. They need to know that we are not "LSM lackeys" and are on here on of our own volition.
Good point!
02-03-2017 04:42 PM
Drake
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

ZNP) "Perhaps, if "falling into the ground to die" means to be removed from contact from all of those you are caring for."


ZNP,

Concerning Brother Nee it's not just being separated.

Drake
02-03-2017 04:41 PM
Evangelical
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Good catch.
OK, but also be careful not to speak from the tree of knowledge, this statement itself is a little prideful, as if you have won some sort of victory.

I also would like to know a bit more about you. There is a high degree of suspicion and lack of trust towards us because of our affiliation with the LC. They need to know that we are not "LSM lackeys" and are on here on of our own volition.
02-03-2017 04:38 PM
Drake
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Sorry, Drake, but Lee and LSM have heartily condemned the whole of Christianity, and by his own words, for close to 70 years. He spared no one. Whether it was contemporary Christian ministers or past men of God before and after the coming of Christ, all were subject to his endless criticisms. Listening to him on a regular basis for almost 30 years, I was given the definite impression that only he and Nee were faultless god-men, ministers of the age, the unique oracles of God, consummate apostles, etc. And just in case we misunderstood Lee's self-implicating aggrandizements from the podium, his surrogates made it exceedingly clear to us who Lee was in private.

I believed it all. For many years I believed everything I was told. I was a loyal foot soldier in the "move of God." I risked every part of my life in order to maintain my allegiance. No one can question my loyalties. I have numerous "brands" to prove them.

Then the Blendeds decided that we in the GLA were their enemies. Threats came. New rules and publication bans came. Quarantines came. Lawsuits came. Training sessions in insubordination came. Churches and saints were badly hurt. I was burdened by the Lord to study what was really happening. Eventually what I uncovered about Lee simply shocked me. His credibility was built on sinking sand like a house of cards held together by lackeys willing to attack and destroy any and all whistle-blowers who spoke their conscience on behalf of God Himself and righteousness.

That said, I still appreciate all the good things I received from Lee. It was he who shot himself in the foot. Like political coverups, his crimes multiplied with his refusal to come clean and repent. That's the difference here. He hurt people and then lied about it. Then he attacked those who refused to believe his lies. The long trail of "persecutors," which we regularly heard of in his meetings and messages, were not "persecutors" at all. They were just men of God crying out for righteousness.

Ohio,

With this argument you justify besmirching Watchman Nee.

Drake
02-03-2017 04:33 PM
Drake
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry View Post
Reading the posts, those positive for the local churches and LSM publications, answer this one question:
At what point do the elders and co-workers become accountable to the localities they serve?
Terry,

Every elder, co-worker, responsible one., or shepherd who accepts the responsibility of leading the flock in a locality is accountable directly to the Lord and to other responsible ones.

I also happen to believe as members of the one Body we have some accountability to each other.

Why do you ask?

Drake
02-03-2017 04:29 PM
Drake
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
Ohio, you are starting to sound like the Pharisee rather than the one who says God have mercy on me a sinner. You may be right but your negative speaking can affect you. Don't become the very thing you are against.
Good catch.
02-03-2017 04:22 PM
Evangelical
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Nothing to delight in Drake, nothing at all.

Btw, have you been hiding all your sins and failures from us too? Why don't you come clean and tell us who you really are!

Don't you have the greater sin for covering others' sins, damaging those who speak up, and causing people to be continually deceived?

It's not me who has sued other Christians. And that would be repeatedly.

It's not me who has divided churches over the ministry of some man.

It's not me who has slandered men of God for speaking their conscience.

It's not me who has fleeced the saints every way possible.

It's not me who has ... but I'll stop there.
Ohio, you are starting to sound like the Pharisee rather than the one who says God have mercy on me a sinner. You may be right but your negative speaking can affect you. Don't become the very thing you are against. But I think this dialogue between former and current members of LC is good, it airs frustration, gets it all out there.
02-03-2017 03:52 PM
Ohio
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Ohio,

You delight in trumpeting the failures of others from the rooftop 24X7.

Then you hide your sins and failures from us but imagine a forum specially created to discuss your many sins day after day after day after day.

Drake
Nothing to delight in Drake, nothing at all.

Btw, have you been hiding all your sins and failures from us too? Why don't you come clean and tell us who you really are!

Don't you have the greater sin for covering others' sins, damaging those who speak up, and causing people to be continually deceived?

It's not me who has sued other Christians. And that would be repeatedly.

It's not me who has divided churches over the ministry of some man.

It's not me who has slandered men of God for speaking their conscience.

It's not me who has fleeced the saints every way possible.

It's not me who has ... but I'll stop there.
02-03-2017 03:38 PM
Ohio
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OBW View Post
I think this is overly simplistic and points at the ones that make the headlines for problems. Or that we know as having gone that way (like Lee). I believe that most are not that way, and don't simply move toward control over time. We are just hearing about the ones that did.

As for Lee, I don't think you would have had a better time earlier if he hadn't needed to be less controlling while he "captured" us under his spell.
Agreed.

And, after reading countless stories, the GLA leadership definitely filtered out much of the craziness that came out of Lee and LSM. We did have our issues, but the early push to "return to the pure word" was clung to much longer.

Some of Lee's money-grabbing and power-grabbing schemes like Daystar and Linko seems to have completely missed us. Many thanks to Brother Titus Chu for keeping us from some of the winds and waves emanating from Anaheim. Except for the constant pressure on him, we might have been completely sheltered from the nonsense which regularly rippled across the Recovery.

Let's face it, the Lord was real to us in the beginning of our LC experience. Many of us were led there by the Lord. Early on LC leaders had a way of helping new believers taste the joy of salvation by opening our mouths in worship to the Lord. All of that was quite good and appreciated.

What was not appreciated was the leaven that accompanied the gospel message. We got bewitched much the same as the Galatians did. Not by circumcision, Jerusalem, and hatred for the Gentiles, but by locality, Anaheim, and the hatred of Christianity. Different agencies, but the same result: bringing us under subjection, evidenced by how they bite and devour one another.
02-03-2017 02:07 PM
OBW
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
You speak victim speak.

You made choices. You stayed even though you heard the term "the flow of life" from the get go. It sounded good to you so you stayed. Or it did not sound good to you and stayed anyway. You made that choice. People aren't trapped, that is just more victim speak. No one is detaining anyone. There is no Orwellian system entrapping and holding people. I walked in, I walked out, I walked back in. That was my choice.
Yes. We all made choices. But for me those choices were made in a vacuum of information. There was a flavor of spirituality in everything said. It was wrapped in scripture. It was just so much coming so fast that it was not possible to stop and recognize what did not add up.

You take the approach that everyone has all the knowledge they need to make a sound decision. That just isn't always the case.

You're logic would declare that those that were members of a reasonable sane Christian sect in the SF Bay area were aware of everything when they decided to move to South America. And then were fully aware of what was going on when they decided that drinking the Kool-Aid was the right way to go.

We are sure that somewhere along the way that those people bought into something that they didn't really think through clearly. And they weren't just a bunch of mental midgets incapable of seeing through things.

The difference is that after the fact I see something that you clearly have not seen. The LRC is not a safe place. It is not a logical choice in light of the actual scripture. But if there is a garlic room in which up is down and left is right, it is in the LRC. It is the place where demeaning of brothers and sisters in Christ is done in the name of oneness. Where every meeting except the Lord's table is regulated from Anaheim yet you can't see the denomination in it. Where the understanding of the scripture must e checked against what Lee said about it. And were some parts of scripture are essentially excised from the book because Lee said it was "natural" or not "in God's economy."

You are right that no one is detaining anyone. But when the dogma is that anyone who leaves will be spiritually bereft, wandering in a wasteland, there is a psychological hold. And when the rhetoric about how everyone else's doctrines and practices can only get them to the level of "daughters of Babylon," then you have been psychologically conditioned to refrain from joining with any other Christians.

Once again, all in the name of oneness.

Your leader was a master at the use of logical error to gain followers in spiritual error.

Declare that I am just a bitter one who left. That I just want to complain. Actually, I do not. But I cannot fathom just leaving the few that I still know in a place that I believe is so nearly evil in its source when there are so many good Christians and Christian organizations in which to find excellent fellowship and "pasture."

The book that this thread discussed is full of first and second-hand evidence that there is something rotten in the very core of what we call the Local Churches. Their leaders were corrupt in ways that Paul would have had run out of town over. The insistence on "one trumpet" would never have been allowed to disguise just one more "I'm of." This time "of Lee."

You will come back and say that what I have said is not true.

So what? You don't even really consider anything that is said with more detail and support that should make you reconsider. You just dismiss it. Say that we are just bitter. If I didn't know people actually suffering in there, I would never look back.
02-03-2017 01:43 PM
OBW
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Christian ministers, however, seem to become more legalistic and controlling over time.
I think this is overly simplistic and points at the ones that make the headlines for problems. Or that we know as having gone that way (like Lee). I believe that most are not that way, and don't simply move toward control over time. We are just hearing about the ones that did.

As for Lee, I don't think you would have had a better time earlier if he hadn't needed to be less controlling while he "captured" us under his spell.
02-03-2017 01:35 PM
Igzy
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Drake, once again I'll say it--hopefully now you can consider directly and honestly.

It is my feeling that the LCM venerates Nee and Lee excessively and to a fault. This leads to many offences, such as telling impressionable young people that if they leave the movement they are leaving "God's best." Benson Phillips is on record as saying that if you leave the movement "there is no way for the growth process to continue." That's a quote. I and many here are witness to such claims.

Simply put such claims are of the devil. They and their ilk have wreaked much damage. Of this point you seem in complete denial.

In order for this mindset to be taken down, the idols of Nee and Lee need to come down. The point is not to label them as devils, the point is to label them as fallen men, and nothing more, not divine seers, not MOTAs, just men, like the rest of us, and thus the movement as just another movement.

To that end anything that helps that cause should be welcomed. And you should welcome it. This is not to say that we should embrace lies, just that when a totem is cut down to size we all should rejoice.
02-03-2017 01:31 PM
ZNPaaneah
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Okay.

I see the principle of a grain of wheat falling into the ground to die....

Drake
Perhaps, if "falling into the ground to die" means to be removed from contact from all of those you are caring for.

I think Galatians is more applicable, not the verse that says it is no longer I that live but Christ lives in me, no the verse where Paul says "I did not give place to them for five minutes". It is not the cross to allow phony baloney lies and slander to prevent you from ministering to the sheep as a shepherd of the flock.

On the other hand, putting up with the slander as though you are the off scouring of the world, that would be to take the cross, rather than bringing a lawsuit against the Christians.

To my understanding WL's account of WN was baloney and is not an example of taking the cross. Likewise, WL's lawsuits were baloney and were not an example of taking the cross.
02-03-2017 01:09 PM
Terry
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Reading the posts, those positive for the local churches and LSM publications, answer this one question:
At what point do the elders and co-workers become accountable to the localities they serve?
02-03-2017 09:29 AM
Ohio
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
You delight in trumpeting the failures of others from the rooftop 24X7.
Then you hide your sins and failures from us but imagine a forum specially created to discuss your many sins day after day after day after day.
Sorry, Drake, but Lee and LSM have heartily condemned the whole of Christianity, and by his own words, for close to 70 years. He spared no one. Whether it was contemporary Christian ministers or past men of God before and after the coming of Christ, all were subject to his endless criticisms. Listening to him on a regular basis for almost 30 years, I was given the definite impression that only he and Nee were faultless god-men, ministers of the age, the unique oracles of God, consummate apostles, etc. And just in case we misunderstood Lee's self-implicating aggrandizements from the podium, his surrogates made it exceedingly clear to us who Lee was in private.

I believed it all. For many years I believed everything I was told. I was a loyal foot soldier in the "move of God." I risked every part of my life in order to maintain my allegiance. No one can question my loyalties. I have numerous "brands" to prove them.

Then the Blendeds decided that we in the GLA were their enemies. Threats came. New rules and publication bans came. Quarantines came. Lawsuits came. Training sessions in insubordination came. Churches and saints were badly hurt. I was burdened by the Lord to study what was really happening. Eventually what I uncovered about Lee simply shocked me. His credibility was built on sinking sand like a house of cards held together by lackeys willing to attack and destroy any and all whistle-blowers who spoke their conscience on behalf of God Himself and righteousness.

That said, I still appreciate all the good things I received from Lee. It was he who shot himself in the foot. Like political coverups, his crimes multiplied with his refusal to come clean and repent. That's the difference here. He hurt people and then lied about it. Then he attacked those who refused to believe his lies. The long trail of "persecutors," which we regularly heard of in his meetings and messages, were not "persecutors" at all. They were just men of God crying out for righteousness.
02-03-2017 08:28 AM
UntoHim
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
You delight in trumpeting the failures of others from the rooftop 24X7. Then you hide your sins and failures from us but imagine a forum specially created to discuss your many sins day after day after day after day.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
While I have read many of these accusations and I don't even care for them, I find extremely disturbing some of you are spending time on hoping whether these things are true are not. In fact you will never be able to do so until we all face the lord one day in the judgment seat. We are not God, so could you please stop wasting time and let the lord do his judging when we see Him again?
Is there any doubt that Watchman Nee was a sinner saved by grace, just like those of us who post on this forum, and just like sister Hsu? Before the age of grace, God saw fit to bring forth the good, the bad and the ugly of nearly every leader of Gods people. The gamut runs from Noah, through to Abraham, Issac and Jacob, on to Moses, David and Solomon. Could any of us...could Watchman Nee, have survived unscathed through the crucible of serving God apart from the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ?

Now we find ourselves in the age of grace, albeit still within a graceless and merciless world. Most of us were "separated from Christ..having no hope and without God in the world". This fact holds true for those whom God has seen fit to endow with great gifts of knowledge, spiritual fortitude and even the courage of a martyr, all the way down to "the least of these".

For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.(Luke 12:48) Of course we are all very familiar with this verse, but maybe not so much with the verse that comes before: And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.(vs 47) Much had been committed to Watchman Nee, and along with great commitment came great expectations of great and wonderful things. Also, along with great commitment from men came all the temptations for any man made of flesh and blood.

Far be it from any of us to mete out any stripes. The "much required" must only come from the hand of the "giver of the much". However, as men who have followed and committed much to our Christian leaders, we not only have the right, we have the duty to hold them fully accountable for their actions. I think the elders who disciplined Watchman Nee were doing their God-ordained duty to hold him accountable. The record of this action is not muddied or sullied by any accusations of the communists, this is clear and without dispute.

-
02-02-2017 08:02 PM
Unregistered
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

As someone who has posted here irregularly for about perhaps 4 years, I want to sadly admit that I'm losing interest in this forum, whoever started this with good intentions, I'm sorry.

I was meeting with the LC saints for a few years and though not anymore and occasionally I have spoken out about the unloving actions I have seen in the LC, I remain grateful for the time with them because of their love for the Lord.

And today I remain very very grateful for brother Nee and his work. As a young Chinese whose family has suffered a lot from the communist's persecution, I have witnessed the ways of how they can use false evidence to deceive people and put people into immense torture and death, while the people are innocent. They did it 50 years ago, and they still do it today. I urge that those who were not raised in mainland china or haven't not tasted the horrifying wickedness of the party to stop spending time on these topics.

While I have read many of these accusations and I don't even care for them, I find extremely disturbing some of you are spending time on hoping whether these things are true are not. In fact you will never be able to do so until we all face the lord one day in the judgment seat. We are not God, so could you please stop wasting time and let the lord do his judging when we see Him again?

If that's the case, why don't you guys bring up the fact that some in China have said Hsu has sold her faith and is not a genuine Christian anymore? The fact is we don't know. Slander and gossip are one of the worst sins we can ever commit and we will reap what we sow.

While many of the older generation of Chinese Christians respect Nee really, I Know someone who once published a book, not the one that you mentioned, to discredit Nee's labor. All the evidence he has used were again based to the communist party's information and this author is known to many to be a proud, arrogant person. I don't want to think of any of you here this way.

I always thought this forum is for us to learn from the goods and bass we have tasted from the LC, and to know the Lord deeper together regardless of us being a LC saint or not. I'm so disappointed that these kinds of discussions keep going until today.
02-02-2017 06:04 PM
Drake
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Your people took their lawsuit against Heritage House Publishers all the way to the Supreme Court.
What happened to 70X7?
Your people filed lawsuits in every GLA LC they could, quarantining brothers who had been in the Recovery for decades.
What happened to 70X7?
Witness Lee trashed denominations and the whole of Christianity his whole life. The Blendeds are still doing it.
What happened to 70X7?
Sorry Ohio.

I missed the part that was a sin against you. was that the second one?

Drake
02-02-2017 06:00 PM
Drake
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Unfortunately ones like Drake are always willing to overlook the hypocrisy and unrighteousness, and keep their eyes of Lee's "vision." As dear brother Francis Ball instructed us, "I'd rather be an ostrich, with my head in the sand."

Ohio,

You delight in trumpeting the failures of others from the rooftop 24X7.

Then you hide your sins and failures from us but imagine a forum specially created to discuss your many sins day after day after day after day.

Drake
02-02-2017 05:56 PM
Ohio
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
ZNP) "The purpose is not to relive all the "hurts" but to learn from them."


I agree with learning.

However, at some point, it is just wallowing.

What happened to 70X7?

I keep coming back to this thought..... when you put servants of the Lord (or anyone of regard for that matter) on a pedestal and when they fail you are crushed and never get over it. Yet, I've rarely seen it consume someone as it has some here. It did not even consume most of the ones oft mentioned here such as Ingals, Rappaport, So, Benoit.. they moved on.

Drake
Your people took their lawsuit against Heritage House Publishers all the way to the Supreme Court.
What happened to 70X7?
Your people filed lawsuits in every GLA LC they could, quarantining brothers who had been in the Recovery for decades.
What happened to 70X7?
Witness Lee trashed denominations and the whole of Christianity his whole life. The Blendeds are still doing it.
What happened to 70X7?
02-02-2017 05:49 PM
Drake
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OBW View Post
Ever heard of the frog in the kettle? It wasn't all evident overnight.

End everything is wrapped in such spiritual terminology as to be difficult to discern what is and is not actually spiritual.

It is like speaking out against the very idea of the "flow of life." It just sounds so obviously spiritual that it is hard to question it. And some would defend it by reference only to other seemingly spiritual things, therefore you have the appearance of spirituality causing you to question your own questions.

I do not say what I do because I want to harm anyone still trapped in that system (admittedly according to my understanding). Or to simply see some Christian organization banished. But I have come to realize that I experienced significant harm from what is being taught and practiced there. To not speak up would be to go against my conscience.

My hope is for the restoration of unity among all believers, not just those who agree to follow certain teachers, meet under the banner of certain names, etc.
OBW,

You speak victim speak.

You made choices. You stayed even though you heard the term "the flow of life" from the get go. It sounded good to you so you stayed. Or it did not sound good to you and stayed anyway. You made that choice. People aren't trapped, that is just more victim speak. No one is detaining anyone. There is no Orwellian system entrapping and holding people. I walked in, I walked out, I walked back in. That was my choice.

Drake
02-02-2017 05:42 PM
Drake
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

ZNP) "The purpose is not to relive all the "hurts" but to learn from them."


I agree with learning.

However, at some point, it is just wallowing.

What happened to 70X7?

I keep coming back to this thought..... when you put servants of the Lord (or anyone of regard for that matter) on a pedestal and when they fail you are crushed and never get over it. Yet, I've rarely seen it consume someone as it has some here. It did not even consume most of the ones oft mentioned here such as Ingals, Rappaport, So, Benoit.. they moved on.

Drake
02-02-2017 05:30 PM
Drake
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Don't attempt to discredit grave concerns with cheap rhetoric.

Why not instead address the concerns, rebut them, or agree with them.

In a very real sense, Witness Lee's actions toward John Ingalls violated all of the Ten Commanments, every single Bible principle of leadership, and all the laws of our country.
Discredit? No.

Talk about it in every thread? No thanks.

Drake
02-02-2017 05:28 PM
Drake
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
Jesus entire earthly ministry was in direct conflict with the religious leaders of the day. They tried to silence him, he wasn't silenced. They tried to stop Him, He didn't stop. They slandered and defamed Him, yet He continued to minister.

I would compare any false accusations, and slander to what Jesus endured at the hands of the religious community during His ministry to the supposed false accusation and slander of WN living with a mistress.

In the end they cut an evil deal with the Romans behind the scenes to arrest Him and kill Him. This evil deal revealed how corrupt they were.

Perhaps that could refer to the Communist trial. I can see why WN might not have challenged the charges made by the Communists even if he were innocent. This could easily be a case of a good shepherd protecting the sheep.

The principle is that Jesus crucifixion exposed the corruption of religion and government. When WN was silent and submissive to the elders of the church in Shanghai it didn't expose anything except that an admission of guilt.

Even though Jesus didn't speak to his accusers or in His defense it did expose the "monkey trial". A secret trial at night, rushed, no opportunity for a real defense, people who didn't even have jurisdiction were seeking to see Him for fleshly reasons, the penalty didn't match the crime. Even Pilate admitted publicly this was nothing but a sham.
Okay.

I see the principle of a grain of wheat falling into the ground to die....

Drake
02-02-2017 03:47 PM
Ohio
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OBW View Post
There is much to be said for your approach.

The funny thing is that I cannot stomach Lee's vision any longer. It is clearly a separatist's vision, not one of oneness or inclusion. I just can't keep silent.

And it is getting me in trouble.
There was much overlap -- more so initially -- between Lee's vision and the common faith. Inclusion gave way to exclusion. Liberty gave way to legalism. Love gave way to zeal for a program. Faith gave way to formality.

I just read a couple articles about how the SCOTUS jurists nearly always tend to become more liberal over time. Christian ministers, however, seem to become more legalistic and controlling over time.
02-02-2017 03:05 PM
OBW
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
This is why I tend to avoid the endless discussion surrounding "spiritual" teachings. For me personally, it's easier to keep aberrant teachings at arm's length.

Unrighteous and illegal activities in the ministry are entirely different. They violate every principle and command of scripture. They are exactly what Lee taught us not to do, yet he himself (or his boys) did repeatedly.

In this regard, I am reminded of our Lord's own words about the Pharisees, "do what they say, but not what they do."

Unfortunately ones like Drake are always willing to overlook the hypocrisy and unrighteousness, and keep their eyes of Lee's "vision." As dear brother Francis Ball instructed us, "I'd rather be an ostrich, with my head in the sand."
There is much to be said for your approach.

The funny thing is that I cannot stomach Lee's vision any longer. It is clearly a separatist's vision, not one of oneness or inclusion. I just can't keep silent.

And it is getting me in trouble.
02-02-2017 02:11 PM
Ohio
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OBW View Post
End everything is wrapped in such spiritual terminology as to be difficult to discern what is and is not actually spiritual.

It is like speaking out against the very idea of the "flow of life." It just sounds so obviously spiritual that it is hard to question it.
This is why I tend to avoid the endless discussion surrounding "spiritual" teachings. For me personally, it's easier to keep aberrant teachings at arm's length.

Unrighteous and illegal activities in the ministry are entirely different. They violate every principle and command of scripture. They are exactly what Lee taught us not to do, yet he himself (or his boys) did repeatedly.

In this regard, I am reminded of our Lord's own words about the Pharisees, "do what they say, but not what they do."

Unfortunately ones like Drake are always willing to overlook the hypocrisy and unrighteousness, and keep their eyes of Lee's "vision." As dear brother Francis Ball instructed us, "I'd rather be an ostrich, with my head in the sand."
02-02-2017 01:10 PM
OBW
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Why would you spend 14 days, much less 14 years, in such an Orwellian place?
Ever heard of the frog in the kettle? It wasn't all evident overnight.

End everything is wrapped in such spiritual terminology as to be difficult to discern what is and is not actually spiritual.

It is like speaking out against the very idea of the "flow of life." It just sounds so obviously spiritual that it is hard to question it. And some would defend it by reference only to other seemingly spiritual things, therefore you have the appearance of spirituality causing you to question your own questions.

I do not say what I do because I want to harm anyone still trapped in that system (admittedly according to my understanding). Or to simply see some Christian organization banished. But I have come to realize that I experienced significant harm from what is being taught and practiced there. To not speak up would be to go against my conscience.

My hope is for the restoration of unity among all believers, not just those who agree to follow certain teachers, meet under the banner of certain names, etc.
02-02-2017 08:50 AM
ZNPaaneah
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Don't attempt to discredit grave concerns with cheap rhetoric.

Why not instead address the concerns, rebut them, or agree with them.

In a very real sense, Witness Lee's actions toward John Ingalls violated all of the Ten Commanments, every single Bible principle of leadership, and all the laws of our country.
This is really why it is so important. If you allow this person to promote this lie about WN, build up his own ministry based on this fabricated story, you are allowing this cancer to grow in the Body. Daystar just emboldened him. Sister's rebellion just further example of who he is and what he does. Lawsuits, same thing all over again. He will twist the Bible any way he needs to to support what he is doing. JI, once again shameful behavior, but part of a long pattern that should have been dealt with years ago.

The purpose is not to relive all the "hurts" but to learn from them. When a leader lies to you then that is serious and has to be dealt with. Otherwise you are promoting a false prophet.
02-02-2017 08:25 AM
Ohio
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
I understand your view Ohio. No matter the topic, you eventually end up in the same place, the same offense explains almost everything thats bad in our world. It's a place to go to that no one can refute. It happened. It was wrong. Therefore, if you steer the argument there a victory dance on his grave happens right on cue.

Drake
Don't attempt to discredit grave concerns with cheap rhetoric.

Why not instead address the concerns, rebut them, or agree with them.

In a very real sense, Witness Lee's actions toward John Ingalls violated all of the Ten Commanments, every single Bible principle of leadership, and all the laws of our country.
02-02-2017 08:10 AM
ZNPaaneah
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
ZNP,

No, not really inconsistent at all. Was the Lord warped and perverted for taking beatings and tolerating false accusations by not showing forth His glory as He did on Mount Hermon or calling down angelic armies to keep him from dashing his foot? Would not those have been more convincing about His mission than suffering silently like a sheep led to the slaughter? Why not defend Himself?

What's the principle there?

Drake
Jesus entire earthly ministry was in direct conflict with the religious leaders of the day. They tried to silence him, he wasn't silenced. They tried to stop Him, He didn't stop. They slandered and defamed Him, yet He continued to minister.

I would compare any false accusations, and slander to what Jesus endured at the hands of the religious community during His ministry to the supposed false accusation and slander of WN living with a mistress.

In the end they cut an evil deal with the Romans behind the scenes to arrest Him and kill Him. This evil deal revealed how corrupt they were.

Perhaps that could refer to the Communist trial. I can see why WN might not have challenged the charges made by the Communists even if he were innocent. This could easily be a case of a good shepherd protecting the sheep.

The principle is that Jesus crucifixion exposed the corruption of religion and government. When WN was silent and submissive to the elders of the church in Shanghai it didn't expose anything except that an admission of guilt.

Even though Jesus didn't speak to his accusers or in His defense it did expose the "monkey trial". A secret trial at night, rushed, no opportunity for a real defense, people who didn't even have jurisdiction were seeking to see Him for fleshly reasons, the penalty didn't match the crime. Even Pilate admitted publicly this was nothing but a sham.
02-02-2017 07:21 AM
Drake
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
Also, this story from WL requires that we accept a warped and perverted view of what it is to "take the cross". If WN was called by God to this ministry why would he let a few jealous elders shut it down based on a falsehood? Wouldn't that falsehood damage new believers, and all those like us who later hear the story?
ZNP,

No, not really inconsistent at all. Was the Lord warped and perverted for taking beatings and tolerating false accusations by not showing forth His glory as He did on Mount Hermon or calling down angelic armies to keep him from dashing his foot? Would not those have been more convincing about His mission than suffering silently like a sheep led to the slaughter? Why not defend Himself?

What's the principle there?

Drake
02-02-2017 07:02 AM
Drake
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
I never read where Igzy was "so enthusiastically embracing these accusations."

But I will tell you why I no longer believe the lies Lee told us about Nee's excommunication by the Shanghai eldership ...

Because of the way Lee lied to us in the book "Fermentation." Because of the way he refused to protect the LC's and especially the sisters from his pathetic sons, Phillip and Timothy. Now, having rotten kids can happen to any of us, including even notable Bible figures like Adam (Cain), Abraham (Ishmael), Isaac (Esau), Eli, Samuel, David, Solomon, etc.

What makes Lee's actions so much more obnoxious was when he placed his boys in positions of power, the exact same thing he taught others never to do. He witnessed their abuses and thefts for decades, yet did nothing to protect the children of God from these monsters. Then, even worse, he destroyed the reputations of every man of God (John Ingalls et. al.) who dared to speak up and protect the saints.

How can you trust a person like that? For me to believe Lee's account of Nee's excommunication story, is for me to believe that the Shanghai elders appointed by Nee were total imbeciles.

I understand your view Ohio. No matter the topic, you eventually end up in the same place, the same offense explains almost everything thats bad in our world. It's a place to go to that no one can refute. It happened. It was wrong. Therefore, if you steer the argument there a victory dance on his grave happens right on cue.

Drake
02-02-2017 06:56 AM
ZNPaaneah
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

I agree with you that the trial by the communist government must be suspect. I agree that many of the witnesses must be suspect as well.

However, in my experience the excommunication (discipline) from the Shanghai elders must be respected. To take on someone like Watchman Nee would be a very difficult thing to do and certainly something that they would not have all agreed to do without clear and convincing proof.

What Witness Lee basically alleged was a coup with a false accusation. Yet when the coup was overthrown there was no action taken against the "conspirators" with the false accusation. Witness Lee does not provide any evidence of his allegations, nor does he even provide a paper trail of the account we all heard repeatedly. Because of the trial and conviction of WN in China it was even more imperative for WL to give a clear counter argument from his sanctuary in Taiwan. He never did this.

As difficult as it would be for the elders to discipline WN, I think it would be even more difficult and require even more convincing evidence to prove that these charges were false, yet we have no evidence other than an absurd story from WL.

Also, this story from WL requires that we accept a warped and perverted view of what it is to "take the cross". If WN was called by God to this ministry why would he let a few jealous elders shut it down based on a falsehood? Wouldn't that falsehood damage new believers, and all those like us who later hear the story?

Are we really to believe that WN due to his spirituality kept his mouth shut and stayed away from ministry because of a bunch of liars, and that this same doctrine of the crucified life is also applied to explaining why Witness Lee sued Christians for referring to the Lord's Recovery Church as a cult?

Finally, what happened to the elders that took on PL's infidelity? We know that they were not making it up, they did not confuse a sister with his mother. WL had them discredited publicly, just as he did with the elders in Shanghai. There is no dispute about any of that.
02-02-2017 06:36 AM
Drake
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

OBW) "That "flow of life" is the sense that you get from being certain of your superiority. Of getting swept away in the mob-like activities of a meeting that is whipping things into a frenzy. When the flow of life comes from meetings and from "pray-reading" the words of a minister almost to the exclusion of the scripture that is claimed to underpin him, then it is more about butterflies and bad tacos. And that is what I saw for years and what seems to be described over and over by the LRC faithful. They keep trotting out terms like "flow of life" as the reason that they must plug their ears and cover their eyes when evidence is placed in front of them indicating that the emperor has no clothes. That is not the flow of life. It is the unscriptural dogma of a sect following a wanna-be minister who is mainly fleecing the sheep."

OBW,

Why would you spend 14 days, much less 14 years, in such an Orwellian place?

Drake
02-01-2017 10:36 AM
Ohio
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post

So why are you, Igzy, so enthusiastically embracing these accusations against a brother and servant of God, one who forfeited freedom for his faith?

Why?

Drake
I never read where Igzy was "so enthusiastically embracing these accusations."

But I will tell you why I no longer believe the lies Lee told us about Nee's excommunication by the Shanghai eldership ...

Because of the way Lee lied to us in the book "Fermentation." Because of the way he refused to protect the LC's and especially the sisters from his pathetic sons, Phillip and Timothy. Now, having rotten kids can happen to any of us, including even notable Bible figures like Adam (Cain), Abraham (Ishmael), Isaac (Esau), Eli, Samuel, David, Solomon, etc.

What makes Lee's actions so much more obnoxious was when he placed his boys in positions of power, the exact same thing he taught others never to do. He witnessed their abuses and thefts for decades, yet did nothing to protect the children of God from these monsters. Then, even worse, he destroyed the reputations of every man of God (John Ingalls et. al.) who dared to speak up and protect the saints.

How can you trust a person like that? For me to believe Lee's account of Nee's excommunication story, is for me to believe that the Shanghai elders appointed by Nee were total imbeciles.
02-01-2017 07:56 AM
OBW
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Much more than a warm feeling or butterflies in the stomach. I don't put much credence in those type senses either. Yet the anointing and guiding of the Holy Spirit is real and when you experience it you never forget it.
I am fully conversant with experience of the anointing and guiding of the Holy Spirit.

But the thing called "the flow of life" in the LRC (from my 14+ years experience there) is that this is a much broader concept that deals with so much and would require that you have some kind of sense of the Spirit at all times. But everyone knows that this is not the case. Our lives are not constantly under the direction of the Holy Spirit in that kind of way. The leading of the Holy Spirit is mostly through what we read and already know. Our alignment with what we know to be true and to be what is the righteous, just, etc., is just the kind of thing that "walking by the Spirit" is intended to be. It is not something that has feelings attached to it (at least not most of the time). The only sense that we should need in most cases is the knowledge that we have acted according to the manner in which our Lord directed through his words and his actions.

But beyond that, the problem with the term "flow of life" in the context of the LRC is that it is generally associated with things like keeping people on the same page with respect to the way meetings should be held, or what ministry should be read. And that last one is the very kind of thing that Paul warned so strongly against. Keeping to one minister to the exclusion of others, and even going so far as to elevate the status of that minister above the level of "servant" says much about the kind of "flow of life" that is being talked about.

That "flow of life" is the sense that you get from being certain of your superiority. Of getting swept away in the mob-like activities of a meeting that is whipping things into a frenzy. When the flow of life comes from meetings and from "pray-reading" the words of a minister almost to the exclusion of the scripture that is claimed to underpin him, then it is more about butterflies and bad tacos. And that is what I saw for years and what seems to be described over and over by the LRC faithful. They keep trotting out terms like "flow of life" as the reason that they must plug their ears and cover their eyes when evidence is placed in front of them indicating that the emperor has no clothes. That is not the flow of life. It is the unscriptural dogma of a sect following a wanna-be minister who is mainly fleecing the sheep.

Well, was mainly fleecing the sheep. But somehow the fleecing has not stopped. his shears seem to operate from the grave through the willing following of those who cannot fathom that their MOTA was a fraud.
01-31-2017 01:50 PM
Drake
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Igzy)"See, Drake, this is in fact the gist of the problem. It's not good enough that you have a nice movement of the Lord with some advantages and benefits over the mainstream (along with some unfortunate disadvantages). You have to be THE move of the Lord, and everything else has to be lesser.

This is the part I don't understand. Why is that such a need for you people? Why do you need to elevate your thing so high that everything else pales by comparison? And why is it worth it to damage those who do not necessary believe that by labeling them rebels, opposers, impure, unclear, blind, natural, fleshly, divisive, Moabites or whatever? These are all terms Lee used to describe Christians outside the LCM.

Why?"



Igzy,

You people?

I am not an official representative of the "you people". I speak here as an individual contributor. My viewpoints are mine and mine alone just to be clear though they may from time to time mirror closely to the "you people" from your vantage point. I'm happy to discuss these matters with that understanding.

I explained previously why not a single word can be trusted that came out of those communist brainwashing shaming trials. I don't trust the so called evidence, I don't trust the script writers, nor the actors, nor the so-called extorted confessions. I don't trust any so-called private meetings which were then reported to the communist authorities. Hsu admits many things don't make sense (e.g. she doubts how Watchman Nee had the means as a young man to own and drive a new car around Shanghai or gain access to a movie camera). In that era, false accusations were demanded and even that may not be enough to save an accuser from an organized persecution directed at them. Lily Hsu, by her own account, stood up in that "trial" and accused Brother Nee out of anger and emotion. She was used. Who among us know what threats were made, what arrangements were put in place, how "testimonies" were extracted? Not even Hsu knew for certain. Pieces still did not make sense to her. She just got swept along with the rest and became a victim herself. Many servants of the Lord suffered in the same way as Watchman Nee.

The communists wrote the script, secured the actors, and orchestrated the play flawlessly.

And just to be sure there is no misunderstanding, I don't think anybody here knows exactly how they would have behaved under the same circumstances. I put my name at the top of that list.

Now as to why Lily Hsu would write the book? Well, she was obviously put up to it by Joshua Yu and Dana Roberts. Most of the book is a history of Watchman Nee that she did not know or experience. Other than her being a young person that was part of a study/prayer group for less than a decade before his imprisonment all her accounts are second hand. She is writing someone else's version of history of Watchman Nee. She was used by the communists in 1956 to accuse Brother Nee and she is still being used by others to accuse him through these "unforgettable memories" of Watchman Nee. She writes of events 15 and 20 years before she was born and adds he was writing the Spiritual Man at that time. That reeks of someone wanting to take Watchman Nee down several notches. Who and why?

Finally, Watchman Nee is not above failure. He, like all of us, are part of the fallen creation. The question is not whether Watchman Nee could have fallen into this particular sin, the question is whether he did. Unless one is predisposed to believe it there are overwhelming reasons to disregard it.

So why are you, Igzy, so enthusiastically embracing these accusations against a brother and servant of God, one who forfeited freedom for his faith?

Why?

Drake
01-31-2017 12:38 PM
Drake
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Drake) "the flow of life..."

OBW) "Whatever that is.

A warm feeling? Butterflies in the stomach?

This is one of the most subjective claims of spirituality that there is. One that is based upon my emotional reaction to words that are consistent with those that I have been conditioned to accept as true without a thought that they might not really be true. Just inspiring and heart-warming.
"

OBW,

Much more than a warm feeling or butterflies in the stomach. I don't put much credence in those type senses either. Yet the anointing and guiding of the Holy Spirit is real and when you experience it you never forget it.

But, arguing with someone who doesn't believe in the flow of life and accompanying experience is similar to trying to convince an unbeliever of a dynamic experience of regeneration. They scoff and tell you its just psychological, mental, or emotion.

Probably a discussion for another topic.

Drake
01-24-2017 07:48 AM
Igzy
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Nobody tells me what to think Igzy, I form my views based on my own assessment. You and others describe some sort of Orwellian society that I have never witnessed and I think I have been close enough to know.
When did you join the movement? What do you really know about the history of the movement?

You keep going back to the communists. I agree they should not be trusted as far as we can throw them, and I agree that stories planted by communists should not be trusted. But this still does not explain the testimony of Miao (MYC) witnessed personally by Hsu not at a trial but in the safety of a private living room. She testified of an affair with Nee when they were young. I already said I don't hold that against either of them. But I have no doubt that kind of thing was quite possible, even for Nee. Further it does not explain the pattern of abuse by the movement's leaders which carried over to the US (ideas like "MOTA" and "handing over" are abusive and exploitive, plain and simple.)

You have no explanation for why Hsu would record such things at this late date. Do you view her as you view anyone outside your movement, as if we all have dark motives to discredit your pure and holy realm? Be honest, the real reason you need keep Nee in such a lofty pedestal is because you need to believe he was the harbinger of the ultimate move of God. You cannot tolerate a view where Nee stumbled into sexual sin, even in a relatively "innocent" way of sleeping with the girlfriend of his youth, because that would threaten your lofty and unique image of him and thus your movement.

See, Drake, this is in fact the gist of the problem. It's not good enough that you have a nice movement of the Lord with some advantages and benefits over the mainstream (along with some unfortunate disadvantages). You have to be THE move of the Lord, and everything else has to be lesser.

This is the part I don't understand. Why is that such a need for you people? Why do you need to elevate your thing so high that everything else pales by comparison? And why is it worth it to damage those who do not necessary believe that by labeling them rebels, opposers, impure, unclear, blind, natural, fleshly, divisive, Moabites or whatever? These are all terms Lee used to describe Christians outside the LCM.

Why?
01-23-2017 01:00 PM
OBW
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
First and foremost I find the allegations unlikely about a brother who spoke the things Brother Nee spoke. . .
So the perceived quality of his teaching of the word makes him unable to do anything like what it charged.

Do you suppose that David was not really a man after God's heart? After all, he committed adultery and had the woman's husband killed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
. . . the enlightenment from the Word, the flow of life from his ministry. . . .
Whatever that is.

A warm feeling? Butterflies in the stomach?

This is one of the most subjective claims of spirituality that there is. One that is based upon my emotional reaction to words that are consistent with those that I have been conditioned to accept as true without a thought that they might not really be true. Just inspiring and heart-warming.
01-22-2017 08:26 PM
Ohio
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koinonia View Post
Thank you. If you think the truth concerning Nee is somewhere in between Lee's and Hsu's depictions, then I am inclined to agree with you. But at this point, I am not interested in Hsu's accounts of brothels and prostitutes and rapes of coworkers anymore than I am interested in Lee's hagiography.
I definitely agree with this, and probably all the other posters here would say the same. If Hsu's account is true, there is no rejoicing here or anywhere. "Love does not take account of evil."

For me, Hsu's account discredits Lee as much as Nee. Lee exalted Nee for personal gain, and Lee destroyed Ingalls et. al. for personal gain.
01-22-2017 11:02 AM
Drake
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Igzy,

Thanks for your thoughtful response. Allow me to respond in kind.

I will clarify some base assumptions about my point of view.

First, I do not recognize the local churches you describe. If I did, I might very well have left a long time ago. My experience is very different. I have lived in several places and visited churches in many more all over the globe. I acknowledge that others have a different experience but out of the many localities I have lived and served in I never found one I could not make a home in in spite of incidents that occurred. A vision of God's purpose, enjoyment of the Lord, the spiritual blessings experienced, and the closeness of a spiritual family were far too valuable to not work through issues. Furthermore, no elders or leading ones ever controlled my life, what I read, what I said in the meetings. If I accepted a request to speak at a conference I would be provided an outline for the messages I was to cover however, what I spoke would be based on the Lord's leading.

Nor is my view of the leadership based on some version of hero worship (my words of what many here describe). My respect and honor towards Watchman Nee's contribution as a servant of the Lord was formed before I even knew there was a Lord's Recovery. I consider Brother Lee a brother, albeit a very gifted one, and through his ministry the Lord shined, supplied, strengthened, and drew me ever closer to Himself. I never put Brother Lee on a pedestal. I followed him as he followed the Lord. An occasional public correction was uncomfortable but Brother Lee was also willing to pray with me and my family when he rightly sensed my personal need. And, I have found every one of the current leading brothers to be gracious and caring in public or in my home. They all have their shortcomings as do we all.

Nobody tells me what to think Igzy, I form my views based on my own assessment. You and others describe some sort of Orwellian society that I have never witnessed and I think I have been close enough to know.

As to Hsu's account and why I don't accept her account readily.

First and foremost I find the allegations unlikely about a brother who spoke the things Brother Nee spoke, the enlightenment from the Word, the flow of life from his ministry, the sacrifice of his life in standing for the Lord, his willingness to stand firm facing imprisonment and persecution all speak to the character of this servant. Before the Lord I trust that. This does not mean he was infallible. No man is, except One. However, just because every christian could fall does not add any weight to an allegation that he did.

Secondly, these allegations Hsu cites were a common tactic from the communists to stamp out all christian movements that did not conform to the government controlled TPSM. Not only Watchman Nee but many servants of the Lord suffered the same thing. Even Christians turned against these servants falsely testifying in public shamings. Some to save their own lives or gain favor from the authorities. Fact is, you cannot take as credible a single word that came out of those trials. Given a choice in confidence between a godly man like Watchman Nee and the allegations of the atheist government of Mao it is a no-brainer. Brother Nee hands down.

Thirdly, many close to Watchman Nee, including Brother Kaung and Kinnear, never mentioned these allegations. Given the many who were very close to Brother Nee compared to Hsu's knowledge and the timing of these allegations during the crackdown on christian groups I would say at best she was a victim of the times. Keep in mind she was but 10 years old in 1942 and in her early twenties when the persecutions began and Brother Nee was tried and convicted. I seriously doubt she as a young person under those circumstances would be able to sort through it all. I doubt few of us would have at that age and under those circumstances. As to her book, she presents herself as in the know but she was not even born in those early days of the Spirit's move in China and only a young person when the persecution started to unfold. She obviously is borrowing someone else's account for anything other than what she saw directly in SCH as a kid or from the trials. She is nevertheless, entitled to an opinion about what she heard from others but it should be taken as that and weighed against the testimony of others like Brother's Lee, Kaung, Kinnear, Lyall who knew Watchman Nee best.

Those are my reasons Igzy. They are not only plausible but probable and the most likely to use your term.

Drake
01-22-2017 10:53 AM
Terry
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Try to be objective and resist the temptation to redirect it to another group. I am using our recent dialogue in this thread as the example.
Try to be objective in the LSM affiliated local churches and see where it gets you. Suggest quarantines were unsubstantiated, and see if you are labeled as negative or positive.
Group think culture in the local churches doesn't permit brothers and sisters to expressive themselves objectively.
01-22-2017 08:32 AM
Igzy
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Igzy,

One of the prominent characteristics of groupthink is confirmation bias exhibited in this thread in our conversation yesterday. The "ingroup members" dialogue in this forum for most topics fits a classic definition of this phenomenon.

Igzy, I challenged you and others in our exchange on most of the attributes above including ambiguous evidence, attitude polarization, belief perseverance, and illusory correlation.

Try to be objective and resist the temptation to redirect it to another group. I am using our recent dialogue in this thread as the example.

I'm not trying to hurt you or put you down.

Think about it.

Drake
Drake,

I do think about this kind of thing a lot. I try not to let my biases affect my thinking.

Do you think about it when considering how you think? Aren't LCMers warned to be "not negative?" Aren't LCMers disciplined for being "negative?" Isn't that the same thing as being programmed to be biased toward positive things about the LCM and against negative things? So aren't LCMers practically commanded to have a confirmation bias?

There is no similar commandment on this forum.

I was actually trying to point out the same kind of issue with your thinking. But I did it in a different way. I asked why you are so quick to consider Nee as some kind of "Minister of the Age" while resisting evidence that he was as imperfect as the rest of us. Instead of honestly answering that question you just mocked it and accused me of submitting irrelevancies.

You forget I was in the LCM. I know how the psychology works and how persuasive it is. Its confirmations brainwashed me into believing things there was insufficient evidence for. Yet I believed them wholeheartedly. Why? Why did I do that? Because I was sold on a culture that told me I could not exist without it. That's pretty strong psychological stuff for a young naive Christian.

Ask yourself, why do you defend the LCM so staunchly? Is it because you truly believe in all they do, or because you are afraid not to?

When I read Lily Hsu's book I ask myself, why would she, at this late date, write this? She obviously is still a practicing Christian and near the end of her life. I find it hard to believe she would go to so much trouble to pass on a pack of lies knowing she is close to her judgment.

You clearly want to believe Nee was what Lee said he was, some kind of super apostle and specially-anointed saint who achieved levels of spirituality and purity the rest of us only dream about. But why do you want to believe that? What evidence do you have that is the way he really was? Why do you believe Lee's stories about him without question yet are so quick to dismiss Hsu's story as just Communist bunk?

So don't you have a confirmation bias as well?

This forum has allowed stories and testimonies of LCM corruption to be heard. These stories, if told within LCM walls would result in silencing, discipline and likely excommunication. We have testimony after testimony of people who brought things to light who suffered abuse by the hands of your leaders and members simply because their consciences could not tolerate the contradictions anymore. You can't blame those stories on Communist propaganda. And you can't blame the acceptance of such overwhelming evidence on "group-think" or "confirmation bias." There is just too much of it.

Lily's Hsu's story is just one more piece that fits easily with the rest because it tells the same tale. She clearly had at least a second-row seat to the happenings during that period. She deserves more than just to be swept under the rug like the LCM swept away the sisters that Philip Lee molested.

If this had been a LCM-loyalist's book written with detail and personal accounts like Hsu's book yet with a pro-LCM spin, I'm sure the LCM would laud the book as a great contribution to Christian history, yet with no more evidence it was true than they have for Hsu's book.

That's confirmation bias.
01-22-2017 07:41 AM
Drake
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Igzy View Post
Hate to have to tell you this, but you are describing the group you are in.
Igzy,

One of the prominent characteristics of groupthink is confirmation bias exhibited in this thread in our conversation yesterday. The "ingroup members" dialogue in this forum for most topics fits a classic definition of this phenomenon.

Wikipedia: Confirmation bias, also called confirmatory bias or myside bias, is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms one's preexisting beliefs or hypotheses, while giving disproportionately less consideration to alternative possibilities. It is a type of cognitive bias and a systematic error of inductive reasoning. People display this bias when they gather or remember information selectively, or when they interpret it in a biased way. The effect is stronger for emotionally charged issues and for deeply entrenched beliefs. People also tend to interpret ambiguous evidence as supporting their existing position. Biased search, interpretation and memory have been invoked to explain attitude polarization (when a disagreement becomes more extreme even though the different parties are exposed to the same evidence), belief perseverance (when beliefs persist after the evidence for them is shown to be false), the irrational primacy effect (a greater reliance on information encountered early in a series) and illusory correlation (when people falsely perceive an association between two events or situations).

Igzy, I challenged you and others in our exchange on most of the attributes above including ambiguous evidence, attitude polarization, belief perseverance, and illusory correlation.

Try to be objective and resist the temptation to redirect it to another group. I am using our recent dialogue in this thread as the example.

I'm not trying to hurt you or put you down.

Think about it.

Drake
01-21-2017 09:02 PM
Ohio
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Igzy View Post
Hate to have to tell you this, but you are describing the group you are in.
I thought he sounded familiar.
01-21-2017 08:14 PM
Igzy
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church

Hate to have to tell you this, but you are describing the group you are in.
01-21-2017 07:48 PM
Drake
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koinonia View Post
Lee never said what you cited. In fact, I showed you where he said something quite different. Yet, you insist that you "heard" something else but cannot prove it.
Happens all the time here.

Facts are not important but anything that advances the group think narrative is perfectly acceptable and encouraged. Attributing sayings to Brother Lee that he did not really say is a favorite pasttime. Hearsay as fact is another. It played out here before our eyes again today in this thread.

It's just the nature of the beast.

Drake
01-21-2017 06:17 PM
Igzy
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koinonia View Post
Thank you. If you think the truth concerning Nee is somewhere in between Lee's and Hsu's depictions, then I am inclined to agree with you. But at this point, I am not interested in Hsu's accounts of brothels and prostitutes and rapes of coworkers anymore than I am interested in Lee's hagiography.
I understand that. But I think the firsthand account of Miao was probably real. I think Nee probably had an affair with her. But it was probably in the 1920s. They were both young. They were probably both thinking they might marry each other some day.

Is that so bad? It happens all the time. So I think Miao's remorse decades later was unfortunate. It was ancient history. It sullied neither of them in any unredeemable way.

But it does, if true, expose Nee as a typical man and human being like the rest of us. Which, as I said, is a good thing at this point.
01-21-2017 06:15 PM
Ohio
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nell View Post
I also heard Lee tell this story in person, more than once. Of course, the woman Nee was living with was his mother.

I was skeptical about the "My Unforgettable Memories" book. After reading it, I no longer doubted that she was telling the truth. Her story was compelling.

Nell
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koinonia View Post
Lee never said what you cited. In fact, I showed you where he said something quite different. Yet, you insist that you "heard" something else but cannot prove it. Okay.
How would you know, since you were not there?

You now have two witnesses who told you what they heard. Scripture says that's all you need.

It wasn't the first time Lee changed his story when it came time to write a book.

He did the same thing in Fermentation.

With sons like Philip and Timothy, how can you believe everything Lee said?
01-21-2017 06:11 PM
Koinonia
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Igzy View Post
How quick were you to accept the LCM's mythology about Nee?

Watchman Nee was neither a demigod nor a devil. He was a flawed man like the rest of us. If this story places some doubts on the ridiculous mythology the LCM has built around him and Lee then that's a good thing, IMHO. I even think Nee would admit that now.

I don't totally accept the story. I don't even necessarily believe every detail. But I think there is probably something to it. And I have more sensible reason to believe it than I have to believe what the LCM wants everyone to believe about Nee, and Lee.

God is going to humble anyone who lifts himself up too high. And Nee and Lee fed the fire of their followers' idolatry of them. We all have histories that would expose us and make us look like clowns if we pretended to be anything close to what the LCM pretends Nee and Lee were. So did they, there is no doubt about that, because they were men like us.
Thank you. If you think the truth concerning Nee is somewhere in between Lee's and Hsu's depictions, then I am inclined to agree with you. But at this point, I am not interested in Hsu's accounts of brothels and prostitutes and rapes of coworkers anymore than I am interested in Lee's hagiography.
01-21-2017 06:06 PM
Nell
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
I heard Lee and others say on several occasions that Watchman Nee was excommunicated from the church in Shanghai in 1942 because he answered "yes" when asked if he was living with another woman.

Did you hear it? How long were you in the LC's? How many trainings and conferences have you gone to? Why haven't you noticed the huge discrepancies between his spoken messages and the written messages?

I also heard Lee tell this story in person, more than once. Of course, the woman Nee was living with was his mother.

In the "spoken v written" messages department I was shocked to hear Lee speak the "man becomes God" messages in Dallas. Since I was not meeting with the church at the time, I purchased the messages in print to verify what Lee said. The "man becomes God" text was nowhere to be found in those messages.

I was skeptical about the "My Unforgettable Memories" book. After reading it, I no longer doubted that she was telling the truth. Her story was compelling.

Nell
01-21-2017 06:05 PM
Koinonia
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Who's condescending? Who made you court prosecutor?
I told you what I have seen and heard. You repeatedly asked for details. You don't like what you heard. You can believe anything you want.
Can I be excused now?
Lee never said what you cited. In fact, I showed you where he said something quite different. Yet, you insist that you "heard" something else but cannot prove it.
01-21-2017 05:58 PM
Igzy
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koinonia View Post
Something I find a bit questionable about this conversation with MYC is the fact that it happened after Hsu had already testified against Nee in his show trial.
How quick were you to accept the LCM's mythology about Nee?

Watchman Nee was neither a demigod nor a devil. He was a flawed man like the rest of us. If this story places some doubts on the ridiculous mythology the LCM has built around him and Lee then that's a good thing, IMHO. I even think Nee would admit that now.

I don't totally accept the story. But I think there is probably something to it. And I have more sensible reason to believe it than I have to believe what the LCM wants everyone to believe about Nee, and Lee.

God is going to humble anyone who lifts himself up too high. And Nee and Lee fed the fire of their followers' idolatry of them. We all have histories that would expose us and make us look like clowns if we pretended to be anything close to what the LCM pretends Nee and Lee were. So did they. There is no doubt about that, because they were men like us.

To paraphrase the old saying: The bigger they think they are, the harder they fall.
01-21-2017 05:56 PM
Ohio
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koinonia View Post
Why are you so condescending? You are stating something that is not true (or that--at the very least--you cannot prove) and insisting that it is true just because you say so. That is not acceptable.

And what exactly do you think I am in "denial and delusion" about?
Who's condescending? Who made you court prosecutor?

I told you what I have seen and heard. You repeatedly asked for details. You don't like what you heard. You can believe anything you want.

Can I be excused now?
01-21-2017 05:46 PM
Terry
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
That's like asking me if I am "completely free" of LSM's smear campaigns against Ingalls, Mallon, Chu, Tomes, etc. for refusing to get on board.

The real question is whether Hsu's story is credible, whether it has second-sourcing, whether it corresponds to the facts of history.

We do know that Lee's account does not. It is surrounded by mythological "tall tales."
I would also add Lee's account is full of omissions.
01-21-2017 05:45 PM
Koinonia
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Something I find a bit questionable about this conversation with MYC is the fact that it happened after Hsu had already testified against Nee in his show trial.

Again, I find it hard to understand why we should be so quick to accept these allegations made against Nee when there are numerous other other (ridiculous) allegations made against him (as well as against many other people) during this same period. This was an era of revolution, show trials, reeducation camps, and brainwashing. The status of Nee's morality doesn't much matter to me anymore, but some things about this story just don't add up.
01-21-2017 05:29 PM
Igzy
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

They do have relevance if you try to get point I was making.

And how do you know they were communist propaganda? Because they became known in the 1950s? That's no proof it's propaganda.

How about the firsthand confession of Miao (MYC) to Lily Hsu which I quoted? That wasn't propaganda. That was something Hsu actually witnessed.
01-21-2017 05:24 PM
Drake
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Igzy View Post
Oh, Drake. Stop being so dramatic and just get the point I was making. I realize it was a bit of a side issue. I was simply making the point that your reasoning is inconsistent. Take it for what it was worth.

It makes a lot more sense that your whopper that there is no evidence against Nee.
Dramatic? Really Igzy, let's just avoid introducing silly arguments about MOTA, Clinton, etc that have no relevance here.

So are we back to the communist propaganda now? Okay, when were all these so called "rape" allegations first made public? What year and what we're the circumstances whereby they surfaced?

Drake
01-21-2017 05:17 PM
Igzy
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Igzy,

It is apparent that there is zero evidence of the charges againsr Brother Nee that you are enthusiastically promoting.

Your gender bias argument is also a fallacy since it has nothing to do with either situation.

Drake
What do you consider evidence of anything in the past before we were alive? All we have is the testimony of others. Why do you believe Lee's stories about Nee, but not Hsu's? What evidence do you have that Lee's stories are true?
01-21-2017 05:11 PM
Igzy
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Igzy) "My question is: You don't have to believe either story, but why believe the one that is least likely?"

Igzy,

Lacking evidence for your argument you introduce unrelated things as above,.. the MOTA argument, a surefire crowd pleaser!

I'd give it up brother because even if men are fooled the Lord is not.

Drake

Oh, Drake. Stop being so dramatic and just get the point I was making. I realize it was a bit of a side issue. I was simply making the point that your reasoning is inconsistent. Take it for what it was worth.

It makes a lot more sense than your whopper that there is no evidence against Nee.
01-21-2017 05:08 PM
Igzy
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church

More from Hsu's book, 1942:
At that time Zhang Qinian blurted out a curse with a very vulgar expression: "Chop him a thousand times!"... Li pursued her and dug into the reason for her unusual resentment. Zhang finally told her that Nee forcefully raped her eight or nine years ago. (Originally Nee took care of the accounts of the "Work" of the Local Church by himself and later he assigned Zhang to help him. The he took the advantage to rape her.) It must be in 1933-34.

Li Yuanru was so furious that she smashed the glass in her hand. She then telegraphed Nee in Beijing and asked him if it was true and he admitted it. She then reported to elders .... Nee committed adultery.
The elders in Shanghai then began deliberations to excommunicate Nee. Isn't this evidence? Isn't it evidence that the Shanghai elders excommunicated Nee for immorality?

Or are we just dismissing Hsu out of hand here?
01-21-2017 05:07 PM
Drake
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Igzy) "My question is: You don't have to believe either story, but why believe the one that is least likely?"

Igzy,

Lacking evidence for your argument you introduce unrelated things as above,.. the MOTA argument, a surefire crowd pleaser!

I'd give it up brother because even if men are fooled the Lord is not.

Drake
01-21-2017 05:06 PM
Koinonia
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Sorry about what?

Not good enough for what?

Did you expect me to convince you of something?

Denial and delusion are tough things to shake loose of. Best of luck!
Why are you so condescending? You are stating something that is not true (or that--at the very least--you cannot prove) and insisting that it is true just because you say so. That is not acceptable.

And what exactly do you think I am in "denial and delusion" about?
01-21-2017 04:55 PM
Igzy
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church

From Lily Hsu's book, this story took place in 1956:
When we got there, MYC led into their living room. She asked us to sit down on the sofa. Although she looked weak, she could still compose herself. She sat with tears on a a single sofa and spoke out the past in detail prior to our utterance. She said in a low tone:
The event happened at Wuxi. Brother Nee called me by phone that he would come to see me. He drove his car and picked me up. I just followed him without a thought... He took the picture of me while I was naked. I asked him why he wanted to take that picture. His answer was: "I want to keep this as a souvenir since we would not have much chance to see each other in the future.

I had asked him multiple times to destroy it and he promised. I don't know why he has kept in so long. For this reason, he was afraid to attend the Lord's Table. Whenever there was a special meeting, he always wrote to me for confession.

That incident probably happened during the period of 1926-1931 when Nee status several times at Tsao-chiao Town, Wushi (Choaqiao, Wuxi.).
Now, is this not evidence of some kind of hanky-panky?
01-21-2017 04:49 PM
Ohio
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koinonia View Post
Sorry, Ohio, but that's not good enough.
Sorry about what?

Not good enough for what?

Did you expect me to convince you of something?

Denial and delusion are tough things to shake loose of. Best of luck!
01-21-2017 04:43 PM
Drake
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Igzy View Post
In Drake's world, if Lee says it, it's evidence, even though Lee has been caught in lies. But if Lily Hsu says it, it's not evidence.

So powerful, impressive man is credible. Insignificant woman is not.

Sound's a lot like Bill Clinton's "nuts and sluts" defense. Every woman who came out with charges against him was dismissed as either a nut or a slut.
Igzy,

It is apparent that there is zero evidence of the charges againsr Brother Nee that you are enthusiastically promoting.

Your gender bias argument is also a fallacy since it has nothing to do with either situation.

Drake
01-21-2017 04:40 PM
Ohio
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Igzy View Post
My point, obviously, is that it is irrational to believe Nee or anyone else was a "Minister of the Age"--given there is no evidence such a thing even exists--while at the same time closing one's eyes to evidence of sexual misconduct--which we know often occurs among powerful men who have no accountability.
That speaks to the core of the problem with LC leadership. It explains why so much corruption was allowed to exist, so many "storms" occurred on a regular basis, so many felt deceived and left, so much emphasis on only reading insider books, so much fear concerning internet writings, so much paranoia, etc.
01-21-2017 04:40 PM
Koinonia
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
I heard Lee and others say on several occasions that Watchman Nee was excommunicated from the church in Shanghai in 1942 because he answered "yes" when asked if he was living with another woman.

Did you hear it? How long were you in the LC's? How many trainings and conferences have you gone to? Why haven't you noticed the huge discrepancies between his spoken messages and the written messages?
Sorry, Ohio, but that's not good enough.
01-21-2017 04:29 PM
Igzy
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post

There is no evidence, nothing is obvious, and all arguments are without merit and fallacies in argumentation.

Drake
In Drake's world, if Lee says it, it's evidence, even though Lee has been caught in lies. But if Lily Hsu says it, it's not evidence.

So powerful, impressive man is credible. Insignificant woman is not.

Sound's a lot like Bill Clinton's "nuts and sluts" defense. Every woman who came out with charges against him was dismissed as either a nut or a slut.
01-21-2017 04:27 PM
Ohio
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koinonia View Post
So then you can't provide a source.
I heard Lee and others say on several occasions that Watchman Nee was excommunicated from the church in Shanghai in 1942 because he answered "yes" when asked if he was living with another woman.

Did you hear it? How long were you in the LC's? How many trainings and conferences have you gone to? Why haven't you noticed the huge discrepancies between his spoken messages and the written messages?
01-21-2017 04:16 PM
Koinonia
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
You would have to find those statements on audio / video tapes.
So then you can't provide a source.
01-21-2017 04:06 PM
Igzy
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church

Here's my point succintly: It is most likely a myth (or at least sheer speculation) that Nee was in God's reality something called "The Minister of the Age." Yet LCMers choose to believe this.

It may be a myth, but is far more likely compared to the MOTA belief, that Nee fell into sexual sin. Yet LCMers scoff at this.

My question is: You don't have to believe either story, but why believe the one that is least likely?

My point, obviously, is that it is irrational to believe Nee or anyone else was a "Minister of the Age"--given there is no evidence such a thing even exists--while at the same time closing one's eyes to evidence of sexual misconduct--which we know often occurs among powerful men who have no accountability.
01-21-2017 04:00 PM
Igzy
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
There is no evidence of sexual misconduct. Therefore, there is no basis for leveling that accusation against this brother.
Again, Drake, you've missed the point and mischaracterized what I said.

First, there is evidence of sexual misconduct. The fact that Nee of all people was banned by the the elders for it is evidence. And Lily Hsu recounts a firsthand confession by the woman Nee was allegedly involved with. That's evidence.

Second, I did not say that all persons of faith likely succumb to immorality. I said it is more likely that Nee (or anyone else) succumbed to immorality than he (or anyone else) was some kind of Minister of the Age.

So given that it is much more unlikely that Nee not a Minister of the Age, since, among other things, no one knows if such a thing even exists, then why do you choose to believe such a silly notion, but do not want to believe the far more likely reality (compared to the MOTA myth) that he fell into sin?
01-21-2017 02:37 PM
Ohio
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koinonia View Post
Ohio, you stated point blank that "even Lee's own public statements confirm" that Nee was excommunicated for sexual impropriety." Yet, what you stated is wrong. Lee did not say any such thing. You claimed that Lee connected the "living with a woman" story with excommunication, and he did not. You will not be able to find a single source that connects the "living with a woman" story with the 1942 excommunication.
You would have to find those statements on audio / video tapes.
01-21-2017 02:20 PM
Ohio
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
There is no evidence, nothing is obvious, and all arguments are without merit and fallacies in argumentation.
The devil is in the details, especially when Lee implies that all this happened years prior to Nee's actual excommunication.
01-21-2017 02:14 PM
Koinonia
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
This is not what Lee said at all. Here is how Lee actually described that incident in A Seer of the Divine Revelation chapter 10:
Ohio, you stated point blank that "even Lee's own public statements confirm" that Nee was excommunicated for sexual impropriety." Yet, what you stated is wrong. Lee did not say any such thing. You claimed that Lee connected the "living with a woman" story with excommunication, and he did not. You will not be able to find a single source that connects the "living with a woman" story with the 1942 excommunication.

Understand--I am not asserting that Nee was not excommunicated for sexual impropriety. I am simply saying that we do not know, and pointing out that it is not okay to play fast and loose with facts just because it fits our worldview.
01-21-2017 01:17 PM
Drake
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Ohio) "How do the above quotes differ in substance?"

There is no difference between those two accounts. One provides more detail.

The arguments put forward today leads me to the observation i stated earlier, that many in this forum willingly accept such propoganda because it supports what they want to believe about Watchman Nee and those close to him.

There is no evidence, nothing is obvious, and all arguments are without merit and fallacies in argumentation.

Drake
01-21-2017 01:01 PM
Ohio
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church

Quote:
3. Lee told us on several occasions that it was all a "misunderstanding," claiming that Nee was asked if he was "living with another woman," to which Nee only answered, "yes."
This is not what Lee said at all. Here is how Lee actually described that incident in A Seer of the Divine Revelation chapter 10:

Quote:
While staying in Shanghai as an unmarried person, his mother came to stay with him for a period of time. Rumors circulated that a woman was living with him. Miss Groves, a sister who had previously been a help to him, heard the rumor and came to ask, "Is it true that you have a woman living with you?" He answered, "Yes." Then she rebuked him. Years later when he related this incident to me, I asked, "Why didn't you tell her that that woman was your mother?" He replied, "Miss Groves didn't ask who that woman was." He simply did not like to explain things to people in order to vindicate himself.
How do the above quotes differ in substance?

The first is what I heard from Lee publicly on several occasions.

The second is what Lee wrote in a book. Note that he "forgot" to mention the excommunication in the account. Note how Lee says "years later" to confuse the reader regarding the timeframe.

Both of Lee's accounts are absurd disemblings of the facts. If you want to believe them that's fine with me. After what Lee wrote in Fermentation about Ingalls and others, he is no longer trustworthy. Other historians are far more credible, with nothing personal to gain. I am not here to prove anything. Lee's repeated history of lies concerning past LC scandals is what troubles me and many ex-members. I gave him every benefit of the doubt for decades, but eventually the facts have emerged from within his dunghill of lies.
01-21-2017 12:39 PM
Drake
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Ohio) "Obviously their decision was based on tangible evidence of impropriety with witnesses."

Obviously?

Tangible?

It is not obvious and there is nothing tangible. It is conjecture.

Drake
01-21-2017 12:35 PM
Koinonia
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
2. Obviously their decision was based on tangible evidence of impropriety with witnesses. Nee would never have been excommunicated based on hearsay, without careful investigation.

3. Lee told us on several occasions that it was all a "misunderstanding," claiming that Nee was asked if he was "living with another woman," to which Nee only answered, "yes."

4. Lee's simplified account informs us that the accusation against Nee was related to sexual immorality.
This is not what Lee said at all. Here is how Lee actually described that incident in A Seer of the Divine Revelation chapter 10:

Quote:
While staying in Shanghai as an unmarried person, his mother came to stay with him for a period of time. Rumors circulated that a woman was living with him. Miss Groves, a sister who had previously been a help to him, heard the rumor and came to ask, "Is it true that you have a woman living with you?" He answered, "Yes." Then she rebuked him. Years later when he related this incident to me, I asked, "Why didn't you tell her that that woman was your mother?" He replied, "Miss Groves didn't ask who that woman was." He simply did not like to explain things to people in order to vindicate himself.
Watchman Nee was married in 1934. Lee reported this incident as having happened before Nee was married. I do not know what happened surrounding Nee's excommunication, but what you are saying about Lee connecting Nee's excommunication with this "living with a woman" story is not what Lee actually said.

Quote:
6. With numerous unanswered questions encircling the story, a retired medical doctor who lived thru the events comes along and informs us what really happened.
It makes no difference to me that Hsu is a "retired medical doctor." The fact is--during the Communist Party witch-hunt, she--at the time a college student--became a self-described "tool of the government" who denied God and testified against Christians in a Maoist show trial. She did not "live through the events." She lived through the Maoist Revolution. The fact that she became, many years later, a "retired medical doctor" does not give her account more credence.

Quote:
7. The LC faithful reject such historical records, instead choose to accept mythological spins purported by their leaders, just like they do with every other "storm" that passes thru their little sect, claiming some vast global conspiracy to "attack" the ministry.
This does not describe my view at all. I do not know what happened to Nee (or Peace Wang or Ruth Lee), but neither does anyone here, and neither does Hsu. Just because I no longer like Nee does not mean that I need to accept at face value everything said by one of his detractors.
01-21-2017 12:22 PM
Ohio
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
What troubled me was the events surrounding Nee's excommunication by the elders in Shanghai in 1942 -- long before the Communists entered the scene.

Lee's explanation of Nee getting excommunicated for answering "yes" when asked if he was "living with another women" simply smacks of deception and coverup.

The story from Lee is frankly not credible. To accept it is to believe that the same elders in Shanghai, the leading church where Nee worked, and appointed by Nee himself, behaved as brain dead imbeciles. Surely they knew I Timothy 5.19-21. Surely they had credible witnesses. Surely they confronted Nee about the accusations against him. Surely the matter weighed on their hearts in prayer. Surely their decision was not at all reckless as Lee would like us to believe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koinonia View Post
What is the "evidence"?

And what statements did Lee make to confirm that Nee was excommunicated for sexual impropriety?
1. All of Nee's biographers (Lee included) recorded that he was excommunicated in 1942 by the elders in Shanghai, whom he had appointed.

2. Obviously their decision was based on tangible evidence of impropriety with witnesses. Nee would never have been excommunicated based on hearsay, without careful investigation.

3. Lee told us on several occasions that it was all a "misunderstanding," claiming that Nee was asked if he was "living with another woman," to which Nee only answered, "yes."

4. Lee's simplified account informs us that the accusation against Nee was related to sexual immorality.

5. Lee's account is a misleading misdirection in order to whitewash Nee's history. In order to accept Lee's account (and btw Lee was not in Shanghai to know the facts of the matter) we must believe that these same Shanghai elders were borderline dunces.

6. With numerous unanswered questions encircling the story, a retired medical doctor who lived thru the events comes along and informs us what really happened.

7. The LC faithful reject such historical records, choosing instead to accept mythological spins purported by their leaders, just like they do with every other "storm" that passes thru their little sect, claiming some vast global conspiracy to "attack" the ministry.
01-21-2017 12:10 PM
UntoHim
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koinonia View Post
Hsu herself repented in her book for having become a "tool of the government" during the Communist Party witch-hunt and show trial.
True enough. But she also affirmed that the part about sexual impropriety was indeed true. The other stuff is somewhat irrelevant to our concerns anyway.
-
01-21-2017 11:51 AM
Koinonia
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
That is not true.

We do have evidence that Née was excommunicated for sexual impropriety.

Even Lee''s own public statements confirm that.
What is the "evidence"?

And what statements did Lee make to confirm that Nee was excommunicated for sexual impropriety?
01-21-2017 11:48 AM
Koinonia
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Igzy View Post
Not of truth, but of likelihood. Since we can't know for sure what is true, it becomes a matter of what is likely. For a variety of reasons it seems more likely than not that Nee was involved sexually with a woman not his wife.
Hsu herself repented in her book for having become a "tool of the government" during the Communist Party witch-hunt and show trial.
01-21-2017 11:43 AM
Ohio
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
There is no evidence of sexual misconduct.
That is not true.

We do have evidence that Née was excommunicated for sexual impropriety.

Even Lee's own public statements confirm that.
01-21-2017 11:38 AM
Ohio
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
That's a logical argument Ohio. Yet, I am not convinced you really believe it given your low opinion of current leadership in the Lord's Recovery.

Drake
My faith is in the pure and sinless Lamb of God, and no longer in the deceptive rulers of the Local Churches.
01-21-2017 11:37 AM
Drake
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Igzy View Post
Let's leave the Communists out of it for a moment, Drake.
Ok, lets leave the commie's propaganda machine aside.

There is no evidence of sexual misconduct. Thrrefore, there is no basis for levelling that accusation against this brother. Furthermore, the likelihood of your second scenario based on human nature and history is not valid either. Unless you intend to argue that every minister of God, every apostle of the New Testament, every person of faith, succumbs to those passions and desires. Doing so would negate the saving power of the Spirit in our living. I don't believe you would dare to pursue that argument.

Drake
01-21-2017 10:56 AM
Igzy
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Igzy,

This is a fallacy in argumentation doubled down. You are using a secondhand account based on popular communist propaganda of the time against Christian leaders who would not toe the party line as proof of an earlier unrelated situation.

Drake
I never said the Communist story proved anything. What I meant was the whole story, from beginning to end, which included a direct confession by the woman involved with Nee, leads me to believe something was up.

I never said there was "proof" of anything.

Let's leave the Communists out of it for a moment, Drake.

What's more likely, that Nee was an exceedingly pure and almost faultless Minister of the Age and Seer of divine revelation, a saint among saints, a genius among geniuses, unmatched in revelation (except by Lee) who was raised up uniquely by God to bring in the "Recovery," to complete the divine word in order to allow God to fulfill his purpose?

Or is it more likely he was the gifted and mostly sincere but flawed leader of a Christian movement who let power and privilege go to his head and strayed sexually, as many men in similar power positions throughout history have done?

Which is more likely, given the evidence and what you know of human nature and history?

Actually, even if there was no evidence of sexual misconduct, the second scenario is more likely than the first, because the first is a fantasy, and the second is typical.
01-21-2017 10:48 AM
Drake
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
What troubled me was the events surrounding Nee's excommunication by the elders in Shanghai in 1942 -- long before the Communists entered the scene.

Lee's explanation of Nee getting excommunicated for answering "yes" when asked if he was "living with another women" simply smacks of deception and coverup.

The story from Lee is frankly not credible. To accept it is to believe that the same elders in Shanghai, the leading church where Nee worked, and appointed by Nee himself, behaved as brain dead imbeciles. Surely they knew I Timothy 5.19-21. Surely they had credible witnesses. Surely they confronted Nee about the accusations against him. Surely the matter weighed on their hearts in prayer. Surely their decision was not at all reckless as Lee would like us to believe.
That's a logical argument Ohio. Yet, I am not convinced you really believe it given your low opinion of current leadership in the Lord's Recovery.

Drake
01-21-2017 10:38 AM
Drake
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Igzy View Post
Rumors of Nee's shenanigans preceded the Communist's accusations.
Igzy,

This is a fallacy in argumentation doubled down. You are using a secondhand account based on popular communist propaganda of the time against Christian leaders who would not toe the party line as proof of an earlier unrelated situation.

Drake
01-21-2017 09:49 AM
Ohio
My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Igzy View Post
Rumors of Nee's shenanigans preceded the Communist's accusations.
What troubled me was the events surrounding Nee's excommunication by the elders in Shanghai in 1942 -- long before the Communists entered the scene.

Lee's explanation of Nee getting excommunicated for answering "yes" when asked if he was "living with another women" simply smacks of deception and coverup.

The story from Lee is frankly not credible. To accept it is to believe that the same elders in Shanghai, the leading church where Nee worked, and appointed by Nee himself, behaved as brain dead imbeciles. Surely they knew I Timothy 5.19-21. Surely they had credible witnesses. Surely they confronted Nee about the accusations against him. Surely the matter weighed on their hearts in prayer. Surely their decision was not at all reckless as Lee would like us to believe.
01-21-2017 09:21 AM
Igzy
My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
There is no evidence that she does it knowingly.

Drake
Rumors of Nee's shenanigans preceded the Communist's accusations.
01-21-2017 09:19 AM
Drake
My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Igzy View Post
I think she would have piled on more if she was simply spreading propaganda.
There is no evidence that she does it knowingly.

Drake
01-21-2017 09:15 AM
Igzy
My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Ohio) "It is former members like Dr. Hsu whose testimony is hard to dismiss."

Her account has all the characteristics of the communist propaganda of that day.
I think she would have piled on more if she was simply spreading propaganda.
01-21-2017 09:13 AM
Igzy
My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koinonia View Post
Igzy: To me, Hsu's story sounds more like real life that the pablum Lee served up about Nee.
That's your standard of truth?
Not of truth, but of likelihood. Since we can't know for sure what is true, it becomes a matter of what is likely. For a variety of reasons it seems more likely than not that Nee was involved sexually with a woman not his wife.



Quote:
By the way, besides the pornography allegations, etc, Watchman Nee was sentenced for the following crimes:
  • Counter-revolution
  • Drug dealing
  • Enslavement of women as prostitutes
  • Running a casino in collusion with organized crime
  • Smuggling

This is documented in several books, including The Martyrdom of Watchman Nee, which quotes from the original sources. The detailed lists of crimes also included numerous political allegations concerning spying for the Nationalist government, directing air bombings on Chinese cities, and stockpiling weapons. Ruth Lee and Peace Wang had similar charges made against them.

Lily Hsu, a college student at the time--who would have known nothing of any of these accusations--testified at the Communist show trial. And many years later, she wrote a book.
Right... And Hsu did not accuse Nee of those extreme things. But she did say he was involved sexually with a woman not his wife. If she had simply wanted to discredit Nee for the sake of communism it seems she would have cooked up some other stories about him to go with the immorality story. But she didn't. So it seems to me she was recounting history as she knew it, nothing more, nothing less.
01-21-2017 09:04 AM
Ohio
My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Ohio) "It is former members like Dr. Hsu whose testimony is hard to dismiss."

Her account has all the characteristics of the communist propaganda of that day.

Do you really think that her account of things are completely free of the Chinese governments smear campaign against Christian leaders who refused to get on board with the TSPM?

Drake
That's like asking me if I am "completely free" of LSM's smear campaigns against Ingalls, Mallon, Chu, Tomes, etc. for refusing to get on board.

The real question is whether Hsu's story is credible, whether it has second-sourcing, whether it corresponds to the facts of history.

We do know that Lee's account does not. It is surrounded by mythological "tall tales."
01-21-2017 08:58 AM
Koinonia
My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Igzy View Post
Well, for that matter we have no way of knowing whether what anyone said about Watchman Nee is true or not, including what Witness Lee said about him.
True.

Quote:
To me, Hsu's story sounds more like real life that the pablum Lee served up about Nee.
That's your standard of truth?

Quote:
The Nee he painted had no faults but was surrounded by fools. This set the stage for Lee's reign as the next one up with no faults but surrounded by fools--which coincided with his pattern of blaming Recovery setbacks on everyone but himself.
I agree with you.

By the way, besides the pornography allegations, etc, Watchman Nee was sentenced for the following crimes:
  • Counter-revolution
  • Drug dealing
  • Enslavement of women as prostitutes
  • Running a casino in collusion with organized crime
  • Smuggling

This is documented in several books, including The Martyrdom of Watchman Nee, which quotes from the original sources. The detailed lists of crimes also included numerous political allegations concerning spying for the Nationalist government, directing air bombings on Chinese cities, and stockpiling weapons. Ruth Lee and Peace Wang had similar charges made against them.

Lily Hsu, a college student at the time--who would have known nothing of any of these accusations--testified at the Communist show trial. And many years later, she wrote a book.
01-21-2017 08:42 AM
UntoHim
My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church

To my observation (over 40 years now) what many of the followers of Witness Lee used to willingly accept as truth - specifically the truth about the history of Watchman Nee and the early Local Church movement - is now taken with a slightly jaundiced eye and a healthy dose of skepticism. The reasons for this are painfully obvious to any objective and discerning person.

The complete truth may be buried within the hearts and minds of the ever dwindling population of Nee's earliest followers who remain sequestered in the bowels of Communist China. Dr. Lily Hsu's testimony is the closest we may ever get to the complete truth. As hard as her testimony is to grasp, her personal testimony regarding the inner workings and secrecy of Watchman Nee's religion ring loud and clear for those of us who observed this dynamic in the life and ministry of Witness Lee, and now even within the little religious cabal they call the Blended Brothers.

Since the beginning of the Local Church movement the truth, and even righteousness, have always taken a back seat to saving the face of the grand leader. This dynamic started with Nee, was eagerly and aggressively taken over by Witness Lee, and now continues to this day in the Blended Brothers.

May the Spirit of Truth, Jesus Christ the Righteous and the Father of lights have mercy and grace on us all.

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01-21-2017 08:40 AM
Drake
My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church

Ohio) "It is former members like Dr. Hsu whose testimony is hard to dismiss."

Her account has all the characteristics of the communist propaganda of that day.

Do you really think that her account of things are completely free of the Chinese governments smear campaign against Christian leaders who refused to get on board with the TSPM?

Drake
01-21-2017 08:30 AM
Ohio
My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
The communists fervently destroyed the character and reputations of Christian leaders, beat them, killed them, extracted false confessions, lied about extracting true confessions. You cannot believe a word they say nor any testimony based on it.

To my observation, many in this forum willingly accept such propoganda because it supports what they want believe about Watchman Nee and those close to him.
Your post is completely bogus. No one here believes the Communists.

It is former members like Dr. Hsu whose testimony is hard to dismiss.

No one on this forum was willing to believe any such communist propaganda about Nee. He was always held in high regard, except for questions surrounding him about why the church in Shanghai would excommunicate him.

Even reputable authors like Angus Kinnear were regularly dismissed by Lee and LSM.

Have you ever considered that perhaps your views of Nee have not been steeped in some of Lee's self-serving mythology?
01-21-2017 08:28 AM
Igzy
My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koinonia View Post
Yes, I have. As far as I am concerned, there is no way for us to know--65+ years later--which parts are true and which parts are communist propaganda.
Well, for that matter we have no way of knowing whether what anyone said about Watchman Nee is true or not, including what Witness Lee said about him.

To me, Hsu's story sounds more like real life that the pablum Lee served up about Nee. The Nee he painted had no faults but was surrounded by fools. This set the stage for Lee's reign as the next one up with no faults but surrounded by fools--which coincided with his pattern of blaming Recovery setbacks on everyone but himself.
01-21-2017 08:21 AM
Igzy
My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
To my observation, many in this forum willingly accept such propoganda because it supports what they want believe about Watchman Nee and those close to him.
I think you mean "to my suspicion," not "to my observation." There is no way for you to "observe" what you say you observe without someone coming out and admitting it.

I suspect (the correct word) people believe it because Lily Hsu's testimony in her book is so believable. Why would an elderly woman make up such a story? Have you read the book?

I suspect LCMers defend Nee because they want to maintain their image of him. Added to that, they are manifestly not very good at being objective thinkers. They tend to believe that they are told to believe and to have a siege mentality.
01-21-2017 07:26 AM
Drake
My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church

The communists fervently destroyed the character and reputations of Christian leaders, beat them, killed them, extracted false confessions, lied about extracting true confessions. You cannot believe a word they say nor any testimony based on it.

To my observation, many in this forum willingly accept such propoganda because it supports what they want believe about Watchman Nee and those close to him.
01-20-2017 12:55 PM
Terry I agree, but to date I haven't had a desire to read Hsu's book. With Lee and LSM, there is a history of not being truthful as facts are withheld or twisted. For that I would be inclined to say Hsu's account would be more believable although still skewed.
01-18-2017 09:41 AM
Ohio
My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church

I agree. I understand you concerns. I held all the same convictions you hold.

Yet Lee's explanation for Nee's excommunication was a deceptive coverup. It never made sense. It occurred long before the commies entered the scene. And it has the exact same stench to it that existed in those Fermentation days of the late 80's -- using some global conspiracy to coverup abusive immorality.

Then along comes a credible witness with firsthand knowledge -- an elderly medical doctor -- who fills in the blanks, and makes some sense of the facts of history.

I am thankful that Nee kept the faith thru years of hardship and martyrdom. Unfortunately, those who revered him the most were stumbled by him. Had Nee not been exalted above measure, these ones might also have kept the faith. The Bible is faithful to record the failures of the great men of God, but not so in the Recovery. For Nee and Lee to maintain their pristine, elevated status among men requires their followers to rewrite history at all cost.

May the Lord have mercy. We owe nothing to man, only to God.
01-18-2017 07:20 AM
Koinonia
My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church

Ohio, you can't pass off my suggestion so easily. Numerous (wild) accusations are being made here--accusations that forever malign the characters of those in question. I don't know what happened in 1942 (and neither do you). But it's ridiculous to me to accept--without qualification--the indictments of the Communist regime, who threw many Christians, missionaries, businesspersons, politicians, intellectuals, etc., into prison. We are asserting here that Ruth Lee and Peace Wang renounced their faith and preached atheism to their prisonmates. We do not not know that that is true. In fact, that is exactly what Mao would like you to believe about them.
01-18-2017 06:32 AM
Ohio
My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church

Would it not also be extremely naive to attribute the actions of the Shanghai elders -- excommunicating Nee in 1942 -- to Communist propaganda?

These events are inextricably intertwined, one explaining and corresponding to the other, to be all discarded inside the dumpster of Communist propaganda.

To accept your contention is to assume that these same Shanghai elders, appointed and perfected by Nee himself, could all behave as brain dead idiotic dunces while excommunicating Nee in 1942.

This was essentially the explanation which Lee sold us all those years.
01-17-2017 09:19 PM
Koinonia
My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church

None of that means that the accounts concerning others that Lily Hsu heard (or that anyone else heard) could not be Communist propaganda. To believe otherwise would be extremely naive.
01-17-2017 07:43 PM
VoiceInWilderness
My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koinonia View Post
Yes, I have. As far as I am concerned, there is no way for us to know--65+ years later--which parts are true and which parts are communist propaganda.
Lily Hsu is about as anti-communist as one can get. She tells you how she suffered under the communists, and how inhuman they were.

There is no communist propaganda in this book except for WN's messages endorsing the communist government, which were too sickening for me to read.

She reports the testimony of many witnesses.

The person who wrote the preface is the son of the leading elder of church in Shanghai, who martyred in 50's. The son was put in forced labor camp for 20 years.

The book is endorsed by many weighty Christians who lived through that period.

The detail and sincerity of the book are not fakeable.
01-17-2017 07:22 PM
Koinonia
My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by VoiceInWilderness View Post
Koinonia, have you read Lily Hsu's book?
Yes, I have. As far as I am concerned, there is no way for us to know--65+ years later--which parts are true and which parts are communist propaganda.
01-17-2017 06:18 PM
VoiceInWilderness
My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koinonia View Post
VoiceInWilderness, you make an interesting point. However, the problem I see here is that there is no way of knowing that any of this information (about WN, or about Ruth Lee and Peace wang) is actually true.
Koinonia, have you read Lily Hsu's book?
01-17-2017 05:01 PM
Koinonia
My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church

VoiceInWilderness, you make an interesting point. However, the problem I see here is that there is no way of knowing that any of this information (about WN, or about Ruth Lee and Peace wang) is actually true.
01-10-2016 06:22 PM
HERn
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
I remember when rock was called Satan's music. Well he must no longer be a fan of rock and is now into Rap ...

Oh how we use Satan to put people and their ways down.
In the early 1970s I heard a preacher say that syncopated music was the devil's music. Preachers say a lot of things.
01-10-2016 12:03 PM
awareness
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OBW View Post
The style might be. But in the churches that reject it currently as being "of the present evil age" when it is otherwise part of their culture.
I remember when rock was called Satan's music. Well he must no longer be a fan of rock and is now into Rap ...

Oh how we use Satan to put people and their ways down.
01-07-2016 12:10 PM
OBW
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

And like Awareness, I have an acquaintance that is busy recording Christian Hip Hop and even rap. Not my style, but it is really fairly good within the genre.
01-07-2016 12:08 PM
OBW
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Are you saying that hip hop will one day be accepted as traditional Christian music?
The style might be. But in the churches that reject it currently as being "of the present evil age" when it is otherwise part of their culture. For us WASPs, hip hop is probably not going to be coming any time soon. Just as songs written to Beatles tunes is not likely coming to African American churches. Nothing wrong with either set of churches or their music — new or old.

And the issues is primarily among the kind of fundamentalism that does (did) things like preach against toilets and bathtubs inside of houses decades ago, but all allow them in today. Who decry songs in the "current" style, but now have songs from the popular styles of a generation or two past (that they were busy preaching against back then).

That was the point.
01-07-2016 11:18 AM
Ohio
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
It already is bro Ohio. One of the sons from a brother I knew in the C. in Ft. Lauderdale, who is presently trying to recover from a lung transplant, has a hip hop ministry in Miami.

And at recently family gatherings, that's made up mostly of Southern Baptists, have some children doing Christian hip hop and RAP.

Why let the devil have it?
Back in the mid-80's one of the sisters introduced rap-reading the Bible. Our place was a little famous for this kind of stuff. The HS kids did that in their gatherings, and then some of the saints had a lot of fun with it. Some were real good at rap-reading, and it would get a little hysterical at times. They would pick some verses, set a beat, and pass it around. It was good old fun with Jesus!

Then in Cleveland some tried to introduce it to other places, and TC heard of it and killed it off. By then it had run it's course anyway, and was getting a little old.
01-07-2016 09:49 AM
awareness
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Are you saying that hip hop will one day be accepted as traditional Chrisrian music?
It already is bro Ohio. One of the sons from a brother I knew in the C. in Ft. Lauderdale, who is presently trying to recover from a lung transplant, has a hip hop ministry in Miami.

And at recently family gatherings, that's made up mostly of Southern Baptists, have some children doing Christian hip hop and RAP.

Why let the devil have it?
01-06-2016 07:48 PM
awareness
Re: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by OBW View Post
I'm not sure that early Nee was really so special. More like a really smart guy with a niche in which he could appear so special.
What Nee established was a personalty cult, and Lee followed in suit.

This can be seen in Lily Hsu. When her idol, Nee, was brought down she lost all her faith.

This commonly happens to followers of personality cult leaders. When their idealized personalty leader is revealed to be phony, they dump it all. They feel so betrayed they feel even God betrayed them.

It happened to me, as it happened to many I know today. My Chinese wife gave up having anything to do with all religion.

Best to beware of great personalities, and those that want to develop followers behind them.
01-04-2016 04:12 PM
markpaul
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OBW View Post
(Once again, the quote button provides no quote)

J-1416 doesn't really do it. My first thought would not have been to check the post numbers.

I would use some generic that sort of describes the kind of person(s) you are referring to. A common phrase could be to say "any common Joe."

But when you say "Lee was closer to J than Nee" it is clear that is not the meaning and makes the reading even more difficult. After finding the post in which you introduce "J" I see what you are talking about. But after 20 or so posts and the influx of other issues in the discussion, something as vague as "J" gets lost. Might be better to simply keep repeating "false apostle." For example, "Lee was closer to being a false apostle than Nee." I might disagree on Nee, but I would understand you.
I see. Thank you very much for the advices!
01-04-2016 03:54 PM
OBW
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Thank you for pointing out the confusion to me. I use J to represent an imaginary person described in #1416 and #1418 in this thread. Maybe I’d better use J-1416&1418 instead. What do you think?
(Once again, the quote button provides no quote)

J-1416 doesn't really do it. My first thought would not have been to check the post numbers.

I would use some generic that sort of describes the kind of person(s) you are referring to. A common phrase could be to say "any common Joe."

But when you say "Lee was closer to J than Nee" it is clear that is not the meaning and makes the reading even more difficult. After finding the post in which you introduce "J" I see what you are talking about. But after 20 or so posts and the influx of other issues in the discussion, something as vague as "J" gets lost. Might be better to simply keep repeating "false apostle." For example, "Lee was closer to being a false apostle than Nee." I might disagree on Nee, but I would understand you.
01-04-2016 01:36 PM
aron
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OBW View Post
I'm saying that Lee railed on the singing of Psalms and on the newer songs written to existing tunes other than old hymns.

Consistent with aron's writings concerning Lee's general view of the Psalms and his insistence upon nothing that he did not personally approve.
The thing about the LC that is confusing is that there can be an arbitrary acceptance, nay embrace, of the "rich heritage" of Christianity, combined with a despising and rejection of "Babylon". Which is which is up to the prophet of the age, depending on how he feels today.

Similar to the Mormon Tabernacle Choir singing the Christmas classics. It looks good, helps with recruiting ("we are just regular folks") and gives the faithful a comforting blanket, unless and until it gets pulled away by the powers.
01-04-2016 12:48 PM
markpaul
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OBW View Post
(The quote button is not working.)

I see the reference to "J" followed by the parenthetical "(isolated from outside)" in an earlier post, but unless somehow "J" is just a stand-in like "X," "Y," or "Z" I am unable to discern what it is that "J" is meant to stand for.

Unless you mean Jesus. But that is not what either did. They really did not drive anyone closer to Jesus. Just to their way of looking at the Bible.
Thank you for pointing out the confusion to me. I use J to represent an imaginary person described in #1416 and #1418 in this thread. Maybe I’d better use J-1416&1418 instead. What do you think?
01-04-2016 12:00 PM
OBW
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

(The quote button is not working.)

I see the reference to "J" followed by the parenthetical "(isolated from outside)" in an earlier post, but unless somehow "J" is just a stand-in like "X," "Y," or "Z" I am unable to discern what it is that "J" is meant to stand for.

Unless you mean Jesus. But that is not what either did. They really did not drive anyone closer to Jesus. Just to their way of looking at the Bible.
01-04-2016 11:33 AM
markpaul
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

I see. Thanks for the clearance!
I agree with aron that Lee was closer to J than Nee. The symptoms such as claimed to be inspired by God (or Holy Spirit), despised the members of Jesus’ flock recorded in Bible are typical J’s.
However, it seems to me there are more to say on Lee. I’ll think about them and discuss with you later.
01-03-2016 09:05 PM
OBW
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

I'm saying that Lee railed on the singing of Psalms and on the newer songs written to existing tunes other than old hymns.

Consistent with aron's writings concerning Lee's general view of the Psalms and his insistence upon nothing that he did not personally approve.
01-02-2016 03:33 PM
markpaul
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Then I’d start the analysis on the “Accusation movement” against American missionaries to eliminate the influence of the “American imperialistic cultural aggression” in Robert/Hsu book.
Previously I shew that Christian religion is international, therefore the “movement” might be used as an excuse to push Chinese Christians closer to J (isolated from outside).
One may say their purpose might be not bad, they were trying to protect Chinese culture from Western influences. But if you consider Communist itself came from Western influence and became dominant ideology in China you could find how ridiculous it is!
For a Christian, it is not difficult to know that missionaries are nothing but Jesus’ plain command recorded in NT (Matthew 28:18-20, ESV). So if he joined those activities, it was equivalent for him to accuse Bible or Jesus. Nee attended the Convention under the title of “Observer” anyway that was another indication he was not led by Holy Spirit (at least not obeyed Holy Spirit).
The worse thing was he promoted “The People’s Standpoint” in SCA special meeting. The term “People” in Chinese is “人民”. This is a typical Communist atheism term, it added to deny the existence of God not to mention the existence of Savior of the world (deny Christ). The philosophy behinds this is The People created history (instead of God). The term “人民” is still used today, for example Chinese money is called “人民币” (RMB). The promotion of “The People’s Standpoint” indicated he stood the wrong side (against Christ), therefore I don’t think Holy Spirit led him to that way.
01-02-2016 11:24 AM
markpaul
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OBW View Post
Yes. And even those of us who did not hear it directly got it indirectly. And besides railing on the Psalms, he attacked every new song that had been written to a tune that was not either original or an old hymn.

And after that I remember going through the supplement and putting a light "X" in pencil through all of the songs that were written to worldly tunes.

Of course no one pointed to all the older hymns that had been written to saloon songs 200-400 years earlier. We were unaware of their origins and were free to use them. It was a more extreme version of the fundamentalist version of righteousness in which you could live in the world of the culture of one to three generations past, but never the present. You had to stand out from the present evil age in meaningless and even isolationist ways (while cursing those sinners who [fill in the blank]). Then in 30 year you could do whatever had been done 30 years earlier.
I’m sorry I cannot follow your saying yet. Are you saying Lee basically criticized everything (past including Psalms as aron mentioned, the time he was alive) other than his? Can I understand it in this way?
01-02-2016 07:54 AM
Ohio
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OBW View Post
Yes. And even those of us who did not hear it directly got it indirectly. And besides railing on the Psalms, he attacked every new song that had been written to a tune that was not either original or an old hymn.

And after that I remember going through the supplement and putting a light "X" in pencil through all of the songs that were written to worldly tunes.

Of course no one pointed to all the older hymns that had been written to saloon songs 200-400 years earlier. We were unaware of their origins and were free to use them. It was a more extreme version of the fundamentalist version of righteousness in which you could live in the world of the culture of one to three generations past, but never the present. You had to stand out from the present evil age in meaningless and even isolationist ways (while cursing those sinners who [fill in the blank]). Then in 30 year you could do whatever had been done 30 years earlier.
Are you saying that hip hop will one day be accepted as traditional Chrisrian music?
01-02-2016 06:39 AM
OBW
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
If you want me to say, "Lee said this at 8:15 PM on Tuesday, November 6, 1989 in Anaheim California", I can't do it. But I was there, and I remember it, and others on this site also witnessed these kind of speakings. The revelation of Lee overturned the revelation of Paul, and ignored the revelation of Jesus Christ in the gospels.
Yes. And even those of us who did not hear it directly got it indirectly. And besides railing on the Psalms, he attacked every new song that had been written to a tune that was not either original or an old hymn.

And after that I remember going through the supplement and putting a light "X" in pencil through all of the songs that were written to worldly tunes.

Of course no one pointed to all the older hymns that had been written to saloon songs 200-400 years earlier. We were unaware of their origins and were free to use them. It was a more extreme version of the fundamentalist version of righteousness in which you could live in the world of the culture of one to three generations past, but never the present. You had to stand out from the present evil age in meaningless and even isolationist ways (while cursing those sinners who [fill in the blank]). Then in 30 year you could do whatever had been done 30 years earlier.
01-01-2016 02:48 PM
markpaul
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
Two notes, here: first to emphasize that we don't judge anyone. We respect all people, and receive all Christians as such. Paul said, "Don't receive for the purpose of passing judgment." (See Rom 14:1-12)

Second is that we are charged to try all the teachings and find out what spirit is operating behind them. The isolationism, the subjective mysticism, the eventual systematization of lording over one another ('whenever you are in a room, you should know who is above you' - expressly contrary to Paul's 'each one should take the lowest place' qua Jesus), all indicate an improper spirit at work. And we should assess the severity of this. Nee himself used to reference this kind of discernment, in his writings. So he also is fair game. We all are.

p.s. That includes the Roberts/Hsu tome, which I found severely lacking.
This is interesting!
01-01-2016 11:09 AM
markpaul
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
Paul said he was eager to remember the poor. Lee ignored this, and his FTTA trainers overturned this: "don't waste your time."

Paul wrote (twice) to sing the Psalms; Lee publicly in the big meeting mockingly imitated the LC saints singing the Psalms, then said it would be better if they made songs from the NT verses, especially the epistles of Paul. But Paul's epistles said to sing Psalms! Talk about ignoring and overturning!

If you want me to say, "Lee said this at 8:15 PM on Tuesday, November 6, 1989 in Anaheim California", I can't do it. But I was there, and I remember it, and others on this site also witnessed these kind of speakings. The revelation of Lee overturned the revelation of Paul, and ignored the revelation of Jesus Christ in the gospels.

btw, these kinds of incendiary speakings were usually 'cleansed' out of the printed materials. But they were repeatedly spoken, in front of thousands of witnesses, including myself. And as I said, the public shaming and mocking from the podium in the LC was quite real, even of those who were following Paul's word of encouragement. But don't be surprised if the printers made that a little less blatant. You may not have picked up on it in the books.
This is the reason why I’m interested in your experiences in Lee’s system—you were insider. Although I didn’t involve in Lee’s system (I mean I became a LCer after Lee’s death), his written teachings definitely had influences on me. Besides, there are a lot of brothers and sisters still trapped in Nee and Lee’s teachings spiritually. Discussions with you and others here turn out to be quite useful methods that drove me to Nee and Lee problems I have not thought before. Shall we discuss above you mentioned in a shorter thread you started? I response slowly, but I promise I’ll try my best.
01-01-2016 11:06 AM
markpaul
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
(Again, think of the oriental practice of "face" - if you sang the 'wrong' songs, Lee would make you lose face. And nobody could make Lee lose his face.)
I’m afraid that he was trying to lose our “faith” instead of “face”, because he didn’t have “faith”, we couldn’t lose his face. It’s a joke, but it exposed my true feeling.
01-01-2016 10:48 AM
aron
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
Nee was converted to the Christian faith within the Protestant/Anglican gospel, so in the beginning he was probably 80%... it got worse and worse. By the time he was doing the "handing over" and "getting in line" pronouncements he was at maybe 20% to 40% (I am estimating, of course. Only God can truly judge anyone). His position in Christ was much weakened by his emphasis on isolationist organizational activities...
Two notes, here: first to emphasize that we don't judge anyone. We respect all people, and receive all Christians as such. Paul said, "Don't receive for the purpose of passing judgment." (See Rom 14:1-12)

Second is that we are charged to try all the teachings and find out what spirit is operating behind them. The isolationism, the subjective mysticism, the eventual systematization of lording over one another ('whenever you are in a room, you should know who is above you' - expressly contrary to Paul's 'each one should take the lowest place' qua Jesus), all indicate an improper spirit at work. And we should assess the severity of this. Nee himself used to reference this kind of discernment, in his writings. So he also is fair game. We all are.

p.s. That includes the Roberts/Hsu tome, which I found severely lacking.
01-01-2016 09:45 AM
UntoHim
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by unknown poster
'but Lee said he was the true oracle of God, and Paul's continuation (the one Apostle of the age) and could even ignore or overturn Paul if he wanted to.'
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
Can you provide the source(s), e.g Lee's life studies or trainings, etc., that have Lee literally said he 'could even ignore or overturn Paul if he wanted to'. The first part 'that he was the true oracle of God, and Paul's continuation' is all over Lee's spoken words, now in the many Lee books. I have no impression that I read or heard Lee said that he could even ignore or overturn Paul if he wanted to.
Unregistered Guest, please use the "Quote" function so that we can know who the made the original quote. If you are going to engage other posters with questions I must insist that you register as a member of the forum. It gets too confusing for the other members to discern one Unregistered Guest from another Unregistered Guest. Please take a couple of minutes and send an email requesting registration, along with your desired UserName, to LocalChurchDiscussions@Gmail.Com

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01-01-2016 07:43 AM
markpaul
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
Your thoughts are good. I like your analysis. And coming from within the Chinese culture, which discourages open discussion because of the idea of "face" (Don't disrespect esablished authority), your voice is important here.

Nee was converted to the Christian faith within the Protestant/Anglican gospel, so in the beginning he was probably 80%. Then he deteriorated over time with his isolationist practices, which were compounded by the not dozens but thousands and tens of thousands (???) who revered him as the absolute and unquestioned authority. This could only lead to a kind of dementia, where his every thought was equivalent to an inspiration from God. No one could "check the madness of the prophet", to quote 2 Peter 2:16. So it got worse and worse. By the time he was doing the "handing over" and "getting in line" pronouncements he was at maybe 20% to 40% (I am estimating, of course. Only God can truly judge anyone). His position in Christ was much weakened by his emphasis on isolationist organizational activities.

At the end, however, we were told that he left behind a note on his prison bed giving a simple, orthodox confession of the Christian faith.

Witness Lee differed from Nee in one significant way. Nee would start with the Bible, and an orthodox (or quasi-orthodox) view but his mystical leanings led him to wander, conceptually. Yet he never equated his writings with the Bible revelation, and at least attempted to orient toward the Christ revealed therein. But Nee was weakened by his isolation, lack of peer review, and the adoration of the masses who thought his every utterance was "revelatory."

Lee, however, went further, and claimed that his inspired utterance was the "high peak" revelation which "crystallized" the Bible revelation. So in his revelation, so-called, he could dismiss parts of the Bible which were not lined up with his vision, calling them "low" and "natural" and "fallen human concepts." (!!!!) In this Lee's deviation was worse than Nee's. He was probably at 10 or 15% in the scale you gave, from 0 to 100. He literally encouraged people to look AWAY from the Bible, and to his teachings. Inexcusable.

I don't think Lee ever realized the seriousness of his deviation. Because like Nee he was surrounded by "yes-men", people who would "amen" his every word, no matter how it deviated from the Christian faith. At his old age he repented in the matter of isolationism, and not receiving the other believers, but the damage was done, in respect to his teachings.
Thank you for your encouragement! I agree with your estimation. I also agree that Lee was worse. I'll discuss with you later.
12-31-2015 08:19 PM
aron
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
Can you provide the source(s), e.g Lee's life studies or trainings, etc., that have Lee literally said he 'could even ignore or overturn Paul if he wanted to'.

The first part 'that he was the true oracle of God, and Paul's continuation' is all over Lee's spoken words, now in the many Lee books. I have no impression that I read or heard Lee said that he could even ignore or overturn Paul if he wanted to.
In addition to the previous post, responding to this, I'd also like to refer our reader to comments I made earlier. Where does Lee's reception of the OT scripture in psalm line up with Paul, and Peter's usage? And where does it deviate? My contention has been, very little of the former, and very much of the latter. Lee even pans Peter as being "natural" in his "concepts" as Peter approvingly quotes the psalm!

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
Did Paul ever indicate that his vision was high, while Peter's or James' was low? Did he suggest that Peter should "get in line" behind him or anyone else? Did Peter ever indicate that people should get in line behind Paul, and that Paul now had primacy? The case Paul recounted in Galatians 2, where "some came from James", indicates James' influence, not Paul's. Paul resisted James' influence, but didn't assert his own.

Did Paul ever indicate that only some of the OT scriptures were profitable to mine for revelation of Christ, while others were revealing only the fallen natures of the writers? Where, in all his recommendations of scripture, are his accompanying dis-recommendations? If not, why or how should we infer this? If we do so, then are our own [i.e. Lee's] judgments become superior to the scriptures, to Paul, and to Peter, and to the writer of Hebrews?

Why didn't John, in his Revelation, indicate the primacy of an apostle? Who was the apostle of the age, after Paul had gone? Was this office somehow irrelevant to John, who with his brother James had requested the right and left hands of Jesus in the kingdom? I would say, hardly. So where is the apostle of the age indicated, in John's apocalypse? No where, that is where. The apostle isn't even indicated; it is the prophet pointing to Christ. So what happened to the apostle of the age? The closest I can see in the apocalypse is the "two witnesses" account. But that is hardly "God's man of the hour". There are two of them.

WL would stress that "the whole view of scripture" indicates this narrative, or that. But I don't see his narrative emerging from the whole view of scripture at all. I think he's superimposing it upon scripture, and subsequently for his narrative to stand, and retain coherence, you have to ignore a lot of scripture.
12-31-2015 07:43 PM
aron
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
I have no impression that I read or heard Lee said that he could even ignore or overturn Paul if he wanted to.
Paul said he was eager to remember the poor. Lee ignored this, and his FTTA trainers overturned this: "don't waste your time."

Paul wrote (twice) to sing the Psalms; Lee publicly in the big meeting mockingly imitated the LC saints singing the Psalms, then said it would be better if they made songs from the NT verses, especially the epistles of Paul. But Paul's epistles said to sing Psalms! Talk about ignoring and overturning!

If you want me to say, "Lee said this at 8:15 PM on Tuesday, November 6, 1989 in Anaheim California", I can't do it. But I was there, and I remember it, and others on this site also witnessed these kind of speakings. The revelation of Lee overturned the revelation of Paul, and ignored the revelation of Jesus Christ in the gospels.

btw, these kinds of incendiary speakings were usually 'cleansed' out of the printed materials. But they were repeatedly spoken, in front of thousands of witnesses, including myself. And as I said, the public shaming and mocking from the podium in the LC was quite real, even of those who were following Paul's word of encouragement. But don't be surprised if the printers made that a little less blatant. You may not have picked up on it in the books.
12-31-2015 06:18 PM
Unregistered
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
'but Lee said he was the true oracle of God, and Paul's continuation (the one Apostle of the age) and could even ignore or overturn Paul if he wanted to.'
Can you provide the source(s), e.g Lee's life studies or trainings, etc., that have Lee literally said he 'could even ignore or overturn Paul if he wanted to'. The first part 'that he was the true oracle of God, and Paul's continuation' is all over Lee's spoken words, now in the many Lee books. I have no impression that I read or heard Lee said that he could even ignore or overturn Paul if he wanted to.
12-31-2015 04:55 PM
aron
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
He literally encouraged people to look AWAY from the Bible, and to his teachings. Inexcusable.

I don't think Lee ever realized the seriousness of his deviation.
I was there when some of the LC saints were singing songs from the Psalms, and Lee started publicly mocking and shaming them. Paul had encouraged psalm-singing, but Lee said he was the true oracle of God, and Paul's continuation (the one Apostle of the age) and could even ignore or overturn Paul if he wanted to.

(Again, think of the oriental practice of "face" - if you sang the 'wrong' songs, Lee would make you lose face. And nobody could make Lee lose his face.)

We had prided ourselves, initially, on being from the "orthodox" school of thousands of years of accepted Christian teachings and understandings, but when Lee began to have his "revelations" like this, and deviate severely from both the letter and the spirit of the Bible, it was very disorienting. What to do? We were committed to the group, and the leader of the group was committed, so it seemed, to lead us away from the Bible. It became very confusing and discouraging for many LC christians.
12-31-2015 04:46 PM
aron
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by markpaul View Post
Therefore Nee’s above teachings could not come from Jesus’ Spirit (or Holy Spirit) indicating he was not converted like Paul but shew J’s symptom (isolated island) instead.

I’ll add more analysis on Nee’s problematic teachings later.
Your thoughts are good. I like your analysis. And coming from within the Chinese culture, which discourages open discussion because of the idea of "face" (Don't disrespect esablished authority), your voice is important here.

Nee was converted to the Christian faith within the Protestant/Anglican gospel, so in the beginning he was probably 80%. Then he deteriorated over time with his isolationist practices, which were compounded by the not dozens but thousands and tens of thousands (???) who revered him as the absolute and unquestioned authority. This could only lead to a kind of dementia, where his every thought was equivalent to an inspiration from God. No one could "check the madness of the prophet", to quote 2 Peter 2:16. So it got worse and worse. By the time he was doing the "handing over" and "getting in line" pronouncements he was at maybe 20% to 40% (I am estimating, of course. Only God can truly judge anyone). His position in Christ was much weakened by his emphasis on isolationist organizational activities.

At the end, however, we were told that he left behind a note on his prison bed giving a simple, orthodox confession of the Christian faith.

Witness Lee differed from Nee in one significant way. Nee would start with the Bible, and an orthodox (or quasi-orthodox) view but his mystical leanings led him to wander, conceptually. Yet he never equated his writings with the Bible revelation, and at least attempted to orient toward the Christ revealed therein. But Nee was weakened by his isolation, lack of peer review, and the adoration of the masses who thought his every utterance was "revelatory."

Lee, however, went further, and claimed that his inspired utterance was the "high peak" revelation which "crystallized" the Bible revelation. So in his revelation, so-called, he could dismiss parts of the Bible which were not lined up with his vision, calling them "low" and "natural" and "fallen human concepts." (!!!!) In this Lee's deviation was worse than Nee's. He was probably at 10 or 15% in the scale you gave, from 0 to 100. He literally encouraged people to look AWAY from the Bible, and to his teachings. Inexcusable.

I don't think Lee ever realized the seriousness of his deviation. Because like Nee he was surrounded by "yes-men", people who would "amen" his every word, no matter how it deviated from the Christian faith. At his old age he repented in the matter of isolationism, and not receiving the other believers, but the damage was done, in respect to his teachings.
12-31-2015 04:23 PM
markpaul
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Because Hsu was an insider of LC in 1948-1956 and other LC insider like Joshua Yu supported this book (see the preface), I would like to do analysis on some events in this period.

Please allow me to start the procedure. The theory of The Authority and Delegated Authority shows that he wanted a powerful position like Chinese Empire in dynasties that nobody could challenge his power (authority) within the kingdom (LC). His actions such as not joining Lord’s Table and no body dare to ask him, submitting “Guling Signature” to Three-Self leader without notifying persons who signed on it, etc. served as indications to support above view. His MOTA teaching made LC like isolated island (or independent kingdom) so that the door to communicate with Christians outside of LC was shut up to prevent the challenges from outside. The “Handing-Over” practice enhanced his power itself.
Above no-limit authority could only be applicable to Jesus but He never demanded His disciple did like Nee’s teachings. For example, in Luke 18:22 (NKJV) there is a verse looks like “Handing-Over” when Jesus taught a Rich Young Ruler, but look what Jesus said:
So when Jesus heard these things, He said to him, “You still lack one thing. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”

Jesus didn’t tell the Ruler pass money to Jesus Himself!
Other place in Acts 4:32-38 has a “Handing-Over” like practice, but those performed it willingly, not demanded (or urged) by Apostles.

Therefore Nee’s above teachings could not come from Jesus’ Spirit (or Holy Spirit) indicating he was not converted like Paul but shew J’s symptom (isolated island) instead.

I’ll add more analysis on Nee’s problematic teachings later.
12-31-2015 09:23 AM
markpaul
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
Nee actually was saved into Christianity fully in the Western model. But the Western model was in some flux (it usually is) and the variant he fell in with (British Brethren) gave him the excuse to "despise" the Western model, in your words above, and pull away. And the fact that China was largely a spiritual vacuum, from the standpoint of Christian culture, was seen when Nee wrote to one of his Christian friends in Europe (T.A. Sparks) and said that he had no peers in China! This was a fairly young Christian, saying that he had none who'd work with him on an equal or superior basis! He was headed for trouble, it seems.

And the second strain of Western Christianity he fell in with was the highly subjective "charismatic" sort where you get your own personal "spirit of prophecy" and can put out your inspirations to rival the Bible. Think Ellen G. White, or some such. With Nee it was more hidden, or veiled, with esoteric, sensual 'spiritual' writings, but the subjective sensualism became more obvious with some of his Little Flock spin-offs like Lord Changshou shouters in China, Eastern Lightning, and Witness Lee (who said parts of the Bible were "low" and "fallen" and "natural" compared to his own inspired hermeneutics [God's eternal economy, etc]).



Actually, yes; his nationalism was clearly seen, from this distance. But from up close, it could not be seen; rather what was seen was his reacting to Western imperialism (U.S. and European denominations). Nee's and then Lee's work was and is essentially a Chinese denomination.

But because they spent so much time and energy figuratively shouting and waving their hands in the air regarding Western nationalism and denominationalism, it wasn't readily apparent that they were replacing it with Eastern nationalism and denominationalism. But it has become increasingly clear to some of us, that this is in fact the case.

You can google the name "Theresa Zimmerman-Liu" to see some of the recent writings emerging on this topic. Some of her work is also referenced on this forum.

http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...ead.php?t=5376
Thank you for driving my attention on other factors of Nee’s teachings. I recognize the complexity of Nee’s teachings (I’ll use Nee hereafter) system, but I would like to focus on the one could be seen clearly in Robert/Hsu book and do my analysis to see if it makes sense.
I realize that the imaginary person J could lead one draws conclusion that I want to use J to represent Nee. I’d say this is misunderstanding. I use J to represent an extreme case that is 100% (I think) non-Christian faith or non-Apostle. This use could save a lot of sentences for me in discussions hereafter. To clear my idea, I’d list a comparison between Apostle Paul and fake-Apostle J as following:

Where I’ll put Nee (scale Nee in term of J) I’m not sure yet. It’s up to reader to decide by himself/herself. I’ll do my analysis on the events listed in Robert/Hsu book. I may give my estimation after some analysis but that would be my personal opinion. I’m learning something here so that it may purify my faith and may give useful information to readers especially those who are still trapped in LC spiritually.

Thanks aron!
12-30-2015 05:22 PM
aron
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by markpaul View Post
...certain person in non-Christian religion culture could be inspired by Holy Spirit directly then convert into Christian without knowing Gospel preached by Christians converted earlier than him... It would be quite difficult for such super-human like J to be advised to enter the flock (Christians) shepherded by Jesus because it would be irresistible for him to despise those who spent their whole life to hold cross follow Jesus with struggle.
Nee actually was saved into Christianity fully in the Western model. But the Western model was in some flux (it usually is) and the variant he fell in with (British Brethren) gave him the excuse to "despise" the Western model, in your words above, and pull away. And the fact that China was largely a spiritual vacuum, from the standpoint of Christian culture, was seen when Nee wrote to one of his Christian friends in Europe (T.A. Sparks) and said that he had no peers in China! This was a fairly young Christian, saying that he had none who'd work with him on an equal or superior basis! He was headed for trouble, it seems.

And the second strain of Western Christianity he fell in with was the highly subjective "charismatic" sort where you get your own personal "spirit of prophecy" and can put out your inspirations to rival the Bible. Think Ellen G. White, or some such. With Nee it was more hidden, or veiled, with esoteric, sensual 'spiritual' writings, but the subjective sensualism became more obvious with some of his Little Flock spin-offs like Lord Changshou shouters in China, Eastern Lightning, and Witness Lee (who said parts of the Bible were "low" and "fallen" and "natural" compared to his own inspired hermeneutics [God's eternal economy, etc]).

Quote:
Originally Posted by markpaul View Post
Although I’m not saying Nee was the same as [hypothetical person] J, his Nationalism factor in his teachings and behaviors was clear seen.
Actually, yes; his nationalism was clearly seen, from this distance. But from up close, it could not be seen; rather what was seen was his reacting to Western imperialism (U.S. and European denominations). Nee's and then Lee's work was and is essentially a Chinese denomination.

But because they spent so much time and energy figuratively shouting and waving their hands in the air regarding Western nationalism and denominationalism, it wasn't readily apparent that they were replacing it with Eastern nationalism and denominationalism. But it has become increasingly clear to some of us, that this is in fact the case.

You can google the name "Theresa Zimmerman-Liu" to see some of the recent writings emerging on this topic. Some of her work is also referenced on this forum.

http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...ead.php?t=5376
12-30-2015 02:39 PM
markpaul
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

While OBW and aron’s discussions are interesting to me, I’m not ready to join them yet. I still need to prepare some basic Bible knowledge and my own understanding so that I can use them as starting point to interpret Nee phenomenon (smart person and first LC builder introduced “Christian teachings” deviated from Bible’s teachings) described in Robert/Hsu book (also include other sources, but mention this one is enough at present because I’m not ready to discuss them yet).

Let me describe my observation on the Christian faith (religion). After I read NT, I could draw a conclusion that Christian religion is international not constrained in certain region. The starting place was Jerusalem, then Middle East, Europe. Therefore, there is no place for Nationalism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism) in Christian religion. When Gospel preached in certain place, the culture in that region would be converted not the other way round (see Acts).
On the other hand, it also against the idea that certain person in non-Christian religion culture could be inspired by Holy Spirit directly then convert into Christian without knowing Gospel preached by Christians converted earlier than him. Let me introduce an imaginary example to explain why that does not work. I would assume a person in other country, say Japan, whose name is J. J was inspired by Holy Spirit and converted into Christian faith, he still lived on earth but felt as if in heaven. Then J would be on a spiritual isolated island. J obeyed God so easily, cross was not necessary for him because he didn’t know what sin was (at least didn’t taste how harmful the sin to him). It would be quite difficult for such super-human like J to be advised to enter the flock (Christians) shepherded by Jesus because it would be irresistible for him to despise those who spent their whole life to hold cross follow Jesus with struggle. Therefore, when somebody had claimed he was inspired by God in a way like J, I would suspect the origin of his inspiration (not from God). Although I’m not saying Nee was the same as J, his Nationalism factor in his teachings and behaviors was clear seen.

I’ll put my analysis later.
12-30-2015 08:16 AM
aron
Re: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by OBW View Post
.. it is a narrow view of scripture heralded as the key to the scripture and the Christian life. I'm not sure that early Nee was really so special. More like a really smart guy with a niche in which he could appear so special.
This may explain why the specialness of Nee was connected to his meteoric rise and within 15 or 20 years going from a few scattered gatherings to the largest denomination in China: Nee simply happened to be in the right place at the right time. He was clearly capable of cranking out "spiritual" material, no matter that much of it, at least the early stuff, was barely re-packaged Guyon and Penn-Lewis. And there was a great hunger for a native Chinese voice.

So Nee believed that he was the Man of the Hour, and with all the throngs crowding around him, he could point to as confirmation. Great Man Syndrome strikes again. All the rest of it, with the various expulsions and triumphant returns like Napoleon from Elba, follow along nicely.
12-30-2015 07:22 AM
OBW
Re: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
I personally don't think either Nee or Lee either left the basics of the faith, but they added so many things that they and their ministries became hopelessly confused. You had "early Nee and "middle Nee" and "later Nee", all of which contradicted each other (so I think). And I'm not a good enough scholar to sort it all out.
But even "early Nee" believed his natural gifts were superior. In his earliest writings he indicates that he is convinced no one but himself could have seen what was revealed in his book. And despite the claims by others since that it was, at some level, a repackaging of another's work (Madam Guyon??), it is a narrow view of scripture heralded as the key to the scripture and the Christian life. I'm not sure that early Nee was really so special. More like a really smart guy with a niche in which he could appear so special.

I mean, when a very mentally gifted kid becomes a Christian at 17 and is writing "spiritual" articles in his own publication before he is out of college with no sign of any real training, I don't think there is some several years in Arabia time like Paul had. More like a focus of his natural speed-reading skills to assemble a lot of stuff together into a reformulated Christianity that fit his almost-adult mindset. Clearly a lot of self aggrandizement.
12-29-2015 06:45 PM
markpaul
Re: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
markpaul,

The correct English is "I'll add more later", not "lately". Otherwise your writing is pretty good. And yes those are the fundamentals of the Christian faith, more or less. It is good to constantly review the basics of the faith, and no matter how far we go in theology (study, or ideas of God), we should remain connected to the basics.

Did Watchman Nee leave the basics? Or was he simply unbalanced?
Thank you very much for your correction on my English error!
I review the basics in OT and NT to show the internal consistency of Bible and the importance to follow Bible’s teachings. I’ll try to figure out some problems in Nee’s (maybe include some of Lee’s) teachings by comparing them with Bible’s teachings. I don’t have an answer (at least answer with certainty) in mind yet. I’ll gradually show my thought to readers and discuss with one may be interested in them. Here I’m not talking about Nee or Lee’s personal faith but their teachings. The discussions with you and others in another thread already shew something I’ve never thought before. So I would like to put more thought on them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
I found the book by Lily Hsu to be a poor treatment of Nee. Incoherent.

I personally don't think either Nee or Lee either left the basics of the faith, but they added so many things that they and their ministries became hopelessly confused. You had "early Nee and "middle Nee" and "later Nee", all of which contradicted each other (so I think). And I'm not a good enough scholar to sort it all out. But I never felt that Roberts and Hsu added much to the discussion unless you took them with a whole lot of disclaimers (many of which I vehemently waved, here).
I’m not knowledgeable about their good or poor treatment of Nee. Based on my knowledge on Christian faith, Chinese culture and Communist, I’ve found some consistency in their description on Nee’s issue with other sources (in Chinese) I’ve read before this book. I’ll post the problems I concern gradually (slowly). I noticed Hsu was an insider of Nee’s system like you were insider of Lee’s system (I mean attended special meeting to listen their teachings), this is quite attractive to me. I’m very happy you could put your interesting on these and give your comments so that I could sharpen or correct my understandings on them. Thanks in advance.
12-29-2015 04:19 PM
aron
Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by markpaul View Post
I’ll add more lately.
markpaul,

The correct English is "I'll add more later", not "lately". Otherwise your writing is pretty good. And yes those are the fundamentals of the Christian faith, more or less. It is good to constantly review the basics of the faith, and no matter how far we go in theology (study, or ideas of God), we should remain connected to the basics.

Did Watchman Nee leave the basics? Or was he simply unbalanced?

I found the book by Lily Hsu to be a poor treatment of Nee. Incoherent.

I personally don't think either Nee or Lee either left the basics of the faith, but they added so many things that they and their ministries became hopelessly confused. You had "early Nee and "middle Nee" and "later Nee", all of which contradicted each other (so I think). And I'm not a good enough scholar to sort it all out. But I never felt that Roberts and Hsu added much to the discussion unless you took them with a whole lot of disclaimers (many of which I vehemently waved, here).
12-29-2015 12:01 PM
markpaul
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Then I read New Testament (NT hereafter) and understand that Jesus Christ’s first Advent changed the situations fundamentally. I found some basic facts that say Jesus was God’s only begotten Son. He came to the world through incarnation 2000 years ago. He shed His blood on the cross willingly, resurrected on the third day. His birth and death was prophesized in Old Testament (I’ll use OT hereafter). His death was not trivial like ordinary people, but was the payment of death penalty for His believers as John 3:16 (ESV) says “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.” His resurrection was the justification of His claims (Son of God, Christ) (here I just say how I understood the events through reading NT). These (there are more can be included, but due to the limit of my English expression ability I have omitted others) shew to me that the God in NT and God in OT is the same as Jesus said in John 10:30 (ESV) “I and the Father are one.”

From my simple descriptions on OT and NT, I’d share my observation on the relationship between OT and NT: they have strong interdependency each other. Without OT, I cannot know God created the heavens and the earth (I think this implies He has infinite power.), I cannot know the origin of human’s sins, I cannot understand the necessity of Jesus’ cross in NT. Without NT, I cannot understand why God dealt Israelites or Jews’ sins so seriously (harsh punishment or discipline), I cannot understand God’s goal for the discipline to Jews in OT, I cannot understand God’s good will is leading His chosen people into eternity with Him and live in New Heaven and New Earth. In other words, I think OT and NT together show God’s tight and complete set of revelations to His chosen people.

I’ll add more lately.
12-26-2015 06:41 PM
markpaul
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

With the Bible basis, I argued that the Bible is complete and closed to be modified (means neither to be added nor to be taken away) in “Article: Beware of the writings of the Watchman” discussion with others. Under this argument, as a Christian I will accept Bible as truth and historical facts hereafter. I understand Bible is God’s Holy Word. As scripture (2 Timothy 3:16-17 [ESV]) says “16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.”
I understand Old Testament as God exposed human being’s sins by choosing Abraham and his descendants (Israelites or Jews afterwards). It says the sins were so deep or strong that men could not overcome by their own efforts to please God even with God’s presence. The period lasted for several thousand years. Whoever wants to come to God should not mock or despise them (Jews etc) but as lessons learning as if the things happened for himself.

I’ll add more lately.
12-26-2015 08:59 AM
markpaul
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

In “Article: Beware of the writings of the Watchman” discussion with others, I draw a tentative conclusion that Nee or Lee’s teachings might lead to cult. That was an unexpected one and hard to be swallowed to me. I have to put more thought on it here.
12-16-2015 02:19 PM
markpaul
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry View Post
Similarly, same can be said of the blendeds. How can they go on knowing what they know about LC history?

And by chance a priest was going down on that road, and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. Likewise a Levite also, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. Luke 10:31-32

Just look the other way......

To answer your question MarkPaul, I go back at most once a year whenever I visit my parents. Yes, some teachings are suspect and the practices create division.
Thanks Terry. I have exactly the same observation: the practices create division.
12-16-2015 12:43 PM
Terry
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by markpaul View Post
Can anybody here go back to LC and live there like nothing happened?
Similarly, same can be said of the blendeds. How can they go on knowing what they know about LC history?

And by chance a priest was going down on that road, and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. Likewise a Levite also, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. Luke 10:31-32

Just look the other way......

To answer your question MarkPaul, I go back at most once a year whenever I visit my parents. Yes, some teachings are suspect and the practices create division.
12-16-2015 10:58 AM
markpaul
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
I was involved in this discussion, once. I felt that the Roberts/Hsu book made a lot of unsubstantiated claims. Lily Hsu saw something presented in a Chinese Communist courtroom. Since when does evidence submitted in a PRC courtroom in 1956 get accepted at face value?
I don’t accept the face value either. I read this kind of stories on WN earlier than Robert/Hsu book in Chinese posts. What my concerns are two aspects: (1) WN’s so called “crime” alone could lead to death according to the law at that time. The sex issue was not necessary to take into account. But if they found some useful evidences to defame WN, they would not hesitate to exploit them. (2) the sexual event happened 1930s, excommunication happened 1942. The latter was confirmed by other resource. Because the things happened before 1949, it was hard to believe C fabricated such an old event to defame him (I mean if they want to use fabricated sex events, they could fabricate them happened after 1949 that might convict WN directly). So it is hard to me to defense for WN’s innocent, although the opposite could not be ruled out absolutely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
My question was, show me a case from the PRC in the 1950s where someone was charged with a crime, pled not guilty, mounted a defense, and was acquitted.

People were like, "But Nee confessed. He admitted that he did it." Folks, everybody in a PRC courtroom confessed. If you didn't confess you got much worse treatment.
Yes, that’s my thinking too. The confession part (the sexual sins) was the most harmful one. If he was an ordinary believer and exposed his weakness that time and repent afterward, it’s no problem to me. But WN claimed to be MOT and was the leader of LC that I expected his speech was given by Holy Spirit as our Lord Jesus said (Mat 10:19-20). However, I cannot see any clue that his confession was led by Holy Spirit because his confession was a benefactor to himself (leniency to 15 years) but harmful to other sisters (victims) that was opposite to Jesus did on the cross. You could argue everybody in PRC courtroom confessed, otherwise one got much worse treatment, but if this was the case for WN it would confirm WN was not led by Holy Spirit. On the other hand, if he was forced to confess he could not get the leniency anymore (15 years). Besides, other arrested brothers and sisters in LC didn’t confess or at least didn’t confess fornication or rape etc. From these observations, I think it is reasonable to keep alert to WN’s teaching, because he was not always led by Holy Spirit and his teaching cannot be equal to the Bible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
The procedural issues in this book were very weak. The authors wouldn't acknowledge them, and this to me weakened their presentation. It came across as very, very biased. (And I am not a fan of WN).
I’m not a fan of WN either. But I would like his teaching to be led by Holy Spirit so that I can use it like Bible as other LCers do. However, I cannot convince myself on this stuff.

By the way, I didn’t get hurt from LC like most of you in this web, but once I found some suspect teaching I cannot enjoy the worship and spiritual studying like before. What do you think? Can anybody here go back to LC and live there like nothing happened?
12-15-2015 07:34 PM
markpaul
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

I will post my opinion on brother aron's concerns soon. Since I'm not a native English speaker, I don't know whether I could explain clearly. I promise I'll try my best.
12-15-2015 05:47 PM
Ohio
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Author Dana Roberts posted 2 interesting comments on Hsu's book on Amazon, so I add them here for the record ...

Quote:
The editing issue is a point well taken. I agree. The book had one too many editors. Yet the two books you mention by Lee and Wu are not witnesses to the events after 1949. Witness Lee's book gives us very, very little information about that period. He was not in China at the time. Surprisingly he speaks little about the time he was close to Nee. Much of his book is hagiography more than biography. That is also true of Newman Sze's book. The other book you mention was written by a man too young to be an eyewitness and who did not go to Shanghai and talk to those who stayed behind and knew Nee in the final years of his ministry. I did. Speak to eyewitnesses. It is the Biblical standard for finding the truth.--Dana Roberts
Quote:
DJ's review is misleading. Before he accuses her of bearing false witness he should have talked to her, even gone to the Shanghai Assembly. I was fortunate enough to visit with a number of the members who attended the Shanghai Assembly in the 1950's and were witnesses to the 1956 trial. Witness Lee had left China before Nee's arrest. Doctor Hsu's name appears on page 226 of Angus Kinnear's AGAINST THE TIDE: THE STORY OF WATCHMAN NEE. Angus Kinnear was not privileged to all the information about Nee after 1949. He had relied quite a bit on statements made by Witness Lee. Lee was not there for the arrest or trial (The only other problem I have with Kinnear's book is his claim that there was no evidence that he had seduced "over a hundred women (p. 222). Of course there was none. No one ever suggested there was a 100 women involved. The court and the Shanghai Christian looked at the evidence of two women. "Personal information" is Hsu's word for interview. I interviewed some of the people she mentions.

As Dr. Hsu's book states, I went to the elderly Shanghai Assembly members who were there. They confirm the content of Dr. Hsu's book. They saw here there at the trial. Now what evidence does DJ have? As for the book for Dongsheng John Wu's book, it is well written, scholarly, but I have reservations. But that's for another review. If he wishes to say that I and Dr. Hsu are bearing a false witness, DJ best provide proof. The Christian Church must remain faithful to the truth, even when St. Peter stumbled.--Dana Roberts
From Amazon ...

Quote:
Dana Roberts resides in China, teaching theology at Hainan University. His first work on Watchman Nee was his Master's degree thesis twenty-five years ago. He turned his interest in Nee into a lifelong obsession that has taken him deep within China and even deeper into the soul of Nee.
12-15-2015 05:29 PM
aron
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by markpaul View Post
As a Chinese speaking Christian, former LCer. I’ve noted this series for a while and read through Hsu’s book. I’d say both the book and the discussion is quite helpful for me to keep alert to WN’s teaching.
I was involved in this discussion, once. I felt that the Roberts/Hsu book made a lot of unsubstantiated claims. Lily Hsu saw something presented in a Chinese Communist courtroom. Since when does evidence submitted in a PRC courtroom in 1956 get accepted at face value?

My question was, show me a case from the PRC in the 1950s where someone was charged with a crime, pled not guilty, mounted a defense, and was acquitted.

People were like, "But Nee confessed. He admitted that he did it." Folks, everybody in a PRC courtroom confessed. If you didn't confess you got much worse treatment.

The procedural issues in this book were very weak. The authors wouldn't acknowledge them, and this to me weakened their presentation. It came across as very, very biased. (And I am not a fan of WN).
12-15-2015 04:22 PM
markpaul
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

As a Chinese speaking Christian, former LCer. I’ve noted this series for a while and read through Hsu’s book. I’d say both the book and the discussion is quite helpful for me to keep alert to WN’s teaching.
12-15-2015 02:24 PM
markpaul
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Great series and interesting discussion!
03-21-2015 10:41 AM
awareness
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

It was Lee that cooked up the Hand-Over practice:

Renewal of Dedication
Quote:
In April 1947, Witness Lee started many days of Special Meetings for the “Renewal of Dedication.” He called on all the believers to have absolute dedication in serving God. According to Zhang Xikang’s autobiography: Reminiscence of Sixty Years, the topics of Lee’s speech were: “Dealing with Mammon and Serving God,” “The Service of the Whole Body,” and “The Occupation of Believers by the World and Mammon.”(17) A year later, Nee used exactly the same topics in his messages at the National Coworkers Meeting.(18) Apparently Nee adopted the topics from Lee with his own elaboration. The enthusiasm for the Lord at SCA heated up. Many confessed their failures and repented with tears. They turned their hearts to the Lord and wrote “Handing-Over notes.” They dedicated themselves to the church together with all their possessions, their career, and their future.
Hsu M.D, Lily M.; Roberts M.A M.T.S, Dana (2013-04-02). My Unforgettable Memories:Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church (Kindle Locations 748-750). Xulon Press. Kindle Edition.
03-21-2015 09:56 AM
awareness
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Handing-Over CBC to SCA?
Quote:
In 1948 Nee called for all of the Local Churches to “hand-over” everything including their churches, themselves, even their whole families and belongings to the two “apostles,” Nee and Lee. Nee took the lead and handed-over his CBC to the church. That greatly promoted the “Handing-Over Movement.” In reality, it was impossible to hand-over his CBC to the church. SCA as a church was obviously unable to run the business. It was merely a gesture and a trick.
Hsu M.D, Lily M.; Roberts M.A M.T.S, Dana (2013-04-02). My Unforgettable Memories:Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church (Kindle Locations 3298-3302). Xulon Press. Kindle Edition.
03-21-2015 07:39 AM
Ohio
Re: LSM’s Ignorance of the Synoptic Problem - Nigel Tomes

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
What bothers me most about both Nee and Lee is what is encapsulated in their "Hand-over." I haven't been in the LC for a long time, but I remember the "all in" expectation in the LC. And it really grinds me to no end that we were expected to give our all to Lee's ministry while Lee, and now we know Nee too, wasn't as totally all in for the ministry we were expected to be.
I first heard of this in Taipei in 1987, and it kind of shocked some of us. Due to Titus Chu's constant mantra summarized by "Good Lee, Bad Blendeds," we thought it was just some rogue radical at LSM interjecting comments to LC leaders like "all your young people are ours, and all your offerings are ours." Then one day AY talked about the "handing-over" during the resumption of Nee's ministry, saying something like "we have found all the documents" concerning handing-over everything to the ministry.

This was perhaps the most troublesome item regarding Nee. The church in Shanghai had excommunicated him six years prior, and Lee successfully had him reinstated by bullying the elders, "how did you feel when you excommunicated Nee, did you sense life and peace." One would think that Nee would return slowly to minister in a humbled state, grateful to the Lord and the church, but instead Nee immediately took over the work, mandating all to "hand over" everything they owned, or they could have no part of his ministry.

Who could behave like that?

Eventually, after all my study of recovery history, I have concluded that Darby, Nee, and Lee all followed the same course. They all started humbly seeking to return to the "pure" word of God, which opened the truth to them afresh. Each of them were extremely gifted and indefatigable leaders and ministers. Slowly over time, however, their new found prestige got the best of them. Like they always say "power corrupts." Each of them began to entertain certain illusions of grandeur about beings today's Paul, God's chosen oracle, the minister of the age.
03-21-2015 12:44 AM
awareness
Re: LSM’s Ignorance of the Synoptic Problem - Nigel Tomes

Quote:
Originally Posted by VoiceInWilderness View Post
Yes, it did burst my bubble of WN.
I had thought that most of the serious errors in the local church were WL's own inventions, but most of them go back to WN, especially after the resumption of his ministry.

The one serious error that appears to be Lee's alone is his saying that some of the Bible is not the Word of God.
It may strike you as odd sounding, coming from me, but I have to admit to being somewhat sympathetic with Lee on that one. It had to be as hard for him as it is for me to reconcile "Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones" -- Psa 137:9 -- with it being the words of God. I can't believe such a statement is in the Bible. What's it doing in there? Surely it can't be from God. I can see why Lee said such statements in the Psalms is of the natural man.

Plus, and we can't forget this one, it takes one to know one ; in that Lee was looking and perchance projecting himself upon the text.

What bothers me most about both Nee and Lee is what is encapsulated in their "Hand-over." I haven't been in the LC for a long time, but I remember the "all in" expectation in the LC. And it really grinds me to no end that we were expected to give our all to Lee's ministry while Lee, and now we know Nee too, wasn't as totally all in for the ministry we were expected to be.

And given both Philip and Timothy Lee, and now what we know about Nee, Lee was a master at covering up. What else was he covering up?

Can Lee or Nee be trusted at all?
03-20-2015 08:01 PM
Freedom
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VoiceInWilderness View Post
Yes, it did burst my bubble of WN.
I had thought that most of the serious errors in the local church were WL's own inventions, but most of them go back to WN, especially after the resumption of his ministry.

The one serious error that appears to be Lee's alone is his saying that some of the Bible is not the Word of God.
I also have had to come to terms with the real Nee vs. the "fictional" Nee. When I first started having concerns about Lee's ministry, my concept was that Lee deviated from the vision that he got through Nee. In a way he did, but one must also ask just what "vision" Nee had.

Presumably Nee really had some spiritual enlightenment. I was always impressed by the fact that some Christians outside the LCM appreciated Nee's ministry, unlike Lee. So it never occurred to me that Nee could have erred in any way.

I think the first thing that troubled me a little was when I found out about how M.E. Barber was so strict with Nee, and how she would constantly rebuke him. Apparently none of Nee's peers could handle that, he was the only one. I've been told that all this rebuking is what make him so "useful". That was the first area of concern for me, because this pattern of "rebuking" brothers and sisters is still evident in the LC today.

With regards to Nee's ministry, I ran into some things that seriously troubled me. I started a thread a few months back titled "The lesser known ministry of Watchman Nee": http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...ead.php?t=5225
I was particularly troubled by the book The Latent Power of the Soul. It is an example of some of Nee's more radical views. It led me to the conclusion that I had to drop the view of only needing to be careful with Lee's ministry but not so much with Nee's ministry.

When I learned about Nee's business failure (just like what happened with Lee), and also Nee's excommunication from the Shanghai Assembly, I realized that there is a lot I was never told about Nee. I don't presume to say how Nee should be viewed, but I think that all these things should be considered in regards to who he really was.
03-20-2015 07:18 PM
VoiceInWilderness
Re: LSM’s Ignorance of the Synoptic Problem - Nigel Tomes

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
It's a good review but short. Care to elaborate here. I'm keenly interested in your thoughts, conclusions, and if it popped any of your Nee bubbles.
Yes, it did burst my bubble of WN.
I had thought that most of the serious errors in the local church were WL's own inventions, but most of them go back to WN, especially after the resumption of his ministry.

The one serious error that appears to be Lee's alone is his saying that some of the Bible is not the Word of God.
03-20-2015 01:15 PM
awareness
Re: LSM’s Ignorance of the Synoptic Problem - Nigel Tomes

Quote:
Originally Posted by VoiceInWilderness View Post
I just finished reading this book. I posted a review on Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/review/R25AMWJVO2SDP1
It's a good review but short. Care to elaborate here. I'm keenly interested in your thoughts, conclusions, and if it popped any of your Nee bubbles.
03-19-2015 07:54 PM
VoiceInWilderness
Re: LSM’s Ignorance of the Synoptic Problem - Nigel Tomes

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
That's where I came by Nee. You should add to your list of reading about him Lily Hsu's book "My Unforgettable Memories:Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church."

Hit me in PM for more info ...
I just finished reading this book. I posted a review on Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/review/R25AMWJVO2SDP1
11-27-2014 12:22 PM
awareness
Re: Clearance of the Past

Quote:
Originally Posted by rayliotta View Post
I mention it because this teaching may be consistent with someone who was plagued by guilt over something that he wanted to stop, yet continued doing.
See my post #13 on the thread "The lesser known ministry of Watchman Nee"
11-27-2014 05:37 AM
Ohio
Re: Clearance of the Past

Quote:
Originally Posted by rayliotta View Post
Remember Watchman Nee's teaching on the "clearance of the past"? This was the title of message #2 in Nee's "fifty messages for the edification of new believers."

I mention it because this teaching may be consistent with someone who was plagued by guilt over something that he wanted to stop, yet continued doing.

Rather than divorce the "good teachings" from the "sins of the teacher" entirely, maybe it's instructive to consider that particular teachings emphasized by particular teachers may be more reflective of who they are as human beings than anything else. And that's OK. But when we're following one or two teachers to the exclusion of others, aren't we just asking for imbalance?
Great points ray.
11-27-2014 05:34 AM
Ohio
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amrkelly View Post
Remove my name from this site Admin or I will raise up ten men to post into this site every day for a month.
Let us give thanks that amrkelly and his threats have not happened.
11-27-2014 01:39 AM
rayliotta
Re: Clearance of the Past

The "Clearance of the Past" message is in between "Baptism" and "Consecration." LSM publishes this as the New Believer's Series. It appears that this particular message is now published under the title Terminating the Past.
11-27-2014 01:37 AM
rayliotta
Clearance of the Past

Remember Watchman Nee's teaching on the "clearance of the past"? This was the title of message #2 in Nee's "fifty messages for the edification of new believers."

I mention it because this teaching may be consistent with someone who was plagued by guilt over something that he wanted to stop, yet continued doing.

Rather than divorce the "good teachings" from the "sins of the teacher" entirely, maybe it's instructive to consider that particular teachings emphasized by particular teachers may be more reflective of who they are as human beings than anything else. And that's OK. But when we're following one or two teachers to the exclusion of others, aren't we just asking for imbalance?
06-18-2014 01:12 PM
zeek
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amrkelly View Post
Remove my name from this site Admin or I will raise up ten men to post into this site every day for a month.
I have no control over this site. Your threat is useless.
06-18-2014 12:27 PM
awareness
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amrkelly View Post
Remove my name from this site Admin or I will raise up ten men to post into this site every day for a month.
Admin, just ignore the brat. He'll do no such thing. If his posts are removed from this thread the thread will be ruined. And I say, or shout: No No No!!!
06-18-2014 11:44 AM
amrkelly
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeek View Post
A cursory perusal of this thread reveals that amkelly makes personal attacks on anyone who disagrees with his opinion. UntoHim has shown remarkable tolerance. I was a moderator on another site and there is no way I would have put up with this kind of verbal abuse there. I'm glad I'm not a moderator here. Professing Christians sometimes act like heathen. Whether or not that is true of Watchman Nee it is certainly true on this thread.
Remove my name from this site Admin or I will raise up ten men to post into this site every day for a month.
06-18-2014 10:26 AM
zeek
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

A cursory perusal of this thread reveals that amkelly makes personal attacks on anyone who disagrees with his opinion. UntoHim has shown remarkable tolerance. I was a moderator on another site and there is no way I would have put up with this kind of verbal abuse there. I'm glad I'm not a moderator here. Professing Christians sometimes act like heathen. Whether or not that is true of Watchman Nee it is certainly true on this thread.
06-18-2014 07:00 AM
aron
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amrkelly View Post
you are an amateur and a fraud.
We are all arguably amateurs and frauds. We were created in the image and likeness of our Maker but we failed. Yet God so loved us that while we were yet sinners He sent His Son. Our failure is at the foundations of the gospels, combined with God's sending and receiving love and mercy.

Having said that, there may be ground for us to characterize one another in a judgmental fashion, or at least our works, using Jude and 2 Peter for inspirational templates. "Waterless clouds, driven by wind, barren trees, uprooted, twice died"... I used to think Jude was a paranoiac, raving about the ungodly, perverted people who've slipped in among us, blemishing our love feasts, but the more I step back and look at the whole Bible, from beginning to end, I do see the narrative. It is there, it is quite real, and it runs right alongside the narrative of redemptive love and mercy.

Nonetheless I come back to the first point: if anyone is absent grace, or quite short of it, it is I. If there is to be a judgment day, and a subsequent wedding feast, then I may be seated at the lower end of the table. Watchman Nee may be far above me, near the head. We are all sinners, and of these I may be foremost. But I am still capable of testing my conscience against the word of God, and on that basis I say that Nee's teachings of unquestioning obedience to church hierarchy is a disservice to the gospel. It robs us of the freedom of the Spirit. It creates and atmosphere of "christian giants" with attendant sycophants, lackeys, and hangers-on. Everybody becomes obsessed with "who is after who", and who's lined up with today's "apostle". Nee didn't need Hsu's poorly disguised hatchet job to come along, to be condemned. His teaching condemns itself.

The gospels present us with Jesus Christ. As does the rest of the Bible, if we'd look. The "Normal Christian Church Life" of Nee is truly an amateurish fraud. At best it is a distraction, at worst a stumbling. We didn't need Lily Hsu to rescue us from Nee's grip. If she had been wise, and circumspect, she would have just done her Shanghai Assembly reminiscences, and then quoted Nee's own writings. That alone would have been a powerful statement.

Nee's recovered church idea is a distraction from Christ. We met on his "recovered local ground" and our focus became the recovered, "proper" church, and its hierarchy, not Jesus Christ. We've had to prop up Nee's recovered church idea by semi-deifying him and making him a giant of 20th century Western Christianity. Which has also become a distraction from Christ, and a stumbling. And then Hsu & Roberts have come along to expose the mortality and foibles of this man. Which also is a distraction from Christ, and a stumbling. Etc.

In all of it we miss the simple idea that we were removed from our Father in heaven, and can be brought back to Him by believing into and following the Lord Jesus Christ. Nee missed it, and I think that so do Hsu and Roberts.
06-17-2014 05:59 PM
OBW
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry View Post
Question I have, was Lee essential to Nee resuming his ministry in 1948?
According to the book, it would appear that Nee was busy having meetings with his coworkers during his excommunication, even working on the messages that would be Authority and Submission. But he was still on he outside and it probably would have taken longer without Lee, so yes, I think he needed Lee because there needed to be someone to set the SCA ship upright and get everyone happy about Nee.
06-17-2014 05:32 PM
OBW
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amrkelly View Post
By the way sweetie pie, I just wanted to say that pointing out that the reference section of the book states that there is just one source, outside of the PRC, and the author, that Nee was a rapist and sexual monster, and comes via Joshua Yu, and variously Joshua Yu on all other references to rape, is not an ad hominem, it is a fact. This is the conclusion from the book itself party pooper. I realise that interviewing people for jobs may not require an ability to read precisely, but ordinarily reading a book, sort of does requires an ability to read. Bless! if you need any help there my dear chap, don't call me I don't speak Americana. Although I just love speaking with Harold, he is a real American and that is a fact. I get my Irish Wolf hound to translate in real time. Seems to work well enough. Toodle Pip then old boy!
And once again you are busy trying to prop Nee up by making his sexual exploits into something less than rape. The fact that the term was probably only marginally applicable, if at all was conceded by most long ago. But that does not make the rest go away. You have done nothing to further any inquiry into that because you are stuck on making JY into the whole source by equivocating between topics. The topic is the whole of Nee and his lack of fit for ministry due to sexual immorality, along with other issues. Someone used the term "rape" and you think that you can overturn what is clearly established as true because "rape" was the wrong word.

You are making it clear that you did a good job of bamboozling awareness and Ohio. You are not adding anything of value to this discussion. And you are disputing what I have said from my reading of the book by talking about my person. I point to the things I read and you point to me. Just like you don't point to the things in the book, you point to the persons who said it. And throw out strawman arguments, substituting the argument about rape for the real issue of sexual immorality.

Don't say another word about anyone here on the forum until you actually address the arguments that they are making. You have failed miserably at actually engaging in any substantive discussion of the facts. Just throwing barbs at the sources and the participants. Then you complain when you get one thrown back at you.
06-17-2014 03:58 PM
aron
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
I didn't need Hsu's book for closure. The LC forums accomplished that.

Not that I needed closure, I've been over Nee, Lee, and the LC for decades.

Why I'm still talking about them is beyond me. Perhaps it's a kind of neurosis.
I'll suggest two reasons, Harold, why you and I are still talking about them. First, I'm still talking because I still like to hear myself talk. I like to think out loud. If I write out the "voices in my head", or more hopefully the "voice in my head", or even better the "still small voice" that seeks God's reality, then I can step back a bit and look at it more objectively and see it better. Plus, I get you all to (virtually) run your bulldozers over it, and when I see what is left in the smoldering ruin, if anything, that's helpful.

So it is cathartic, and it can help the thought process. It can actually be an "anti-neurosis". It's like therapy.

Secondly, I write because maybe someone wants to hear a voice crying out in the wilderness. I don't mind typing in the virtual wilderness; you never know if someone on the "outs" of the Local Church system might be encouraged not to drop the "God" idea along with the "church life" idea. Of course when they see my writing, whether they are encouraged or discouraged is really up to God I guess. Anyway God is merciful. You never know.
06-17-2014 02:27 PM
amrkelly
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
Amen bro Andrew, and Amen again. The Lord knows. But Hsu and Roberts are claiming to know also. And they want us to know too. And the Lord is silent on the matter.
The Lord was silent on the matter of His own trial Harold, and it confounded Pilate to the core. Silence is only the wait before the testimony begins by faithful men. Nor does it mean that a thing cannot be known.

I have enclosed two screen shots which I have made into pdf files to download. They are from the book by Xi Lian "Redeemed By Fire" published in 2010. The research which went into the book began in the mid 1990s with a series of question airs which went out to dozens of men and women in China, amongst other places. On the basis of those replies Xi Lian visited China to do followup interviews. Xi is an academic and a professor in his field.

One of the men he interviewed in 1997 was Zhang Qizhen. You will find him in Hsu's book.

The pdf screen shots make reference to a printed expose of Nee in a Shanghai newspaper in 1934 just after he married Charity.

The second pdf shown the attached foot note as follows:

Zhang Qizhen, interviews, 1997. See also Kinnear, Against the Tide, pp. 80-81, 129-30; Ren Zhongxiang, Shanghai Jidutu Juhuichu, pp. 4-5

This foot note relates to this single point about the newspaper expose.

It includes three men who participated directly or indirectly to this claim by Xi Lian. Of these three men the two which are most relevant are Zhang Qizhen and Ren Zhongxiang.

Zhang Qizhen

Xi Lian relies on Zhang Qizhen on eleven occasions as a source of information. This is based on information received from 1997-99, both in written responses and face to face interviews in China.

Ren Zhongxiang

Xi Lian quotes from Ren Zhongxiang on twenty-eight occasions all of which are taken from two publications in Chinese.

Although there are other significant names who feature in providing information about Nee, these two men are cited as the source of the information regarding the newspaper article in 1934 in Shanghai.

As far as Hsu's book is concerned Ren Zhongxiang is cited as follows:

According to Dr Hsu the Chinese Government considered the Gu Ling signature drive to be the number one crime of Watchman Nee.

Yet Hsu depends entirely on the evidence of one single person when telling the story of this alleged event. That person was Ren Zhongxiang.

The relevance of saying this is to draw attention to the fact that whilst Ren Zhongxiang had been an elder in the Shanghai Assembly from the late 40s, afterwards he became a keen supporter of the TSMP. Ren Zhongxiang adopted the Government position from 1955 onwards. The book which Dr Hsu quotes from is 任鍾祥《簡史, which simply translates as Ren Zhongxiang ‘History’. The full title of the book is 上海基督徒聚會處簡史 ‘A Brief History of the Shanghai Christian Assembly.

In fact Dr Hsu quotes Ren Zhongxiang in matters relating to:

The collection of Money and valuables for the building of the new meeting place in Shanghai. This is what Hsu claims is the beginning of the ‘Handing Over Policy’. It is worth recalling that this ‘Handing Over’ was a direct accusation at Nee’s trial.

The alleged improper use of the Gu Ling signature list is also directly attributed to information provided from Ren Zhongxiang. Hsu cites this as proof of the megalomania of Nee. Hsu states “However, we did not even know our signatures for Guling were also used to support Three-Self. Not until 1956, when the government exposed it in public did we learn the truth.” It is clear therefore that this alleged crime of Nee was also first presented by the Communist Government and then much later on it is confirmed by Ren Zhongxiang in his book. This too is a part of the charges at Nee’s trial.

To further support this allegation Dr Hsu quotes Tang Shoulin, who was the chief editor of the TSMP newspaper. This is the news paper which Hsu and the reporter had a joke about when Hsu had finished her interview after the denunciation trial in January 1956. A copy was lying on the table and Hsu said “I hated Tianfeng in the past, and I even hated everyone who had expressed himself on the newspaper.” http://shanghaichristianassembly.cn/i-accuse/

Ren Zhongxiang was one of the twelve church people who attended the closed session trial of Nee in June 1956.

Ren Zhongxiang is also the source of the information regarding the collection of original signatures for the Land Reform exemption at Gu Ling in July 1950.

Ren Zhongxiang is also cited as the source of an alleged confession by Nee regarding his business activities.

Quoting from his book Hsu says, “In the beginning of 1952, as Nee realized that he would have serious problems in the Five-Anti campaign, he said he was sick and rarely got out of his bed. One day, he asked the coworkers and elders of the church to come to his residence. He confessed, repented, and asked them to pray for him. He said he “is not an overcoming Christian and could not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.”

Dr Hsu finally quotes from Ren Zhongxiang in the matter of supposed ‘pious submission’. The purpose here, in context of the book itself, is to ‘explain’ that the elders of the local churches were essentially mere figure heads.

All in all this one man who was a willing participant in the official start of the TSMP, formed in 1955, to no less that four out of five of the principle crimes which Nee was eventually denounced for.


Tang Shoulin

This man is cited eight times in Xi Lian's book. Tang Shoulin and Ren Zhongxiang both became willing and active participants in the TSMP even before the SCA "cleansing" of 1956 took place. They wrote books together and specifically stood against Witness Lee from the mid 1980s. Tang Shoulin became a member of the first standing committee of the TSPM in 1955 along with Bishop Ting. Ren Zhongxiang became a member and active participant from 1955 onwards. Ji Jianhong who was an elder of the Little Flock went on to become the Chairman of the TSPM in 2002. See the article: http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/...ber/30.68.html You can also see Ji Jianhong cited in this article in 2008 where he had lost his influential position. http://archive.episcopalchurch.org/8...03_ENG_HTM.htm

The simple reality is that every reference I have been able to follow for those men who have been cited as the source for information about Nee, are based on men who supported the TSPM and held influential positions across decades and in various roles and capacities. I have seen nothing which categorical reflects a genuine independent and first hand account to support the claims against Nee as far as rape, or even serious sexual sins are concerned.

In Hsu's book the unavoidable reality is that every single reference to sexual indiscretion as well as seven of the most serious accusations come back down to three men-Joshua Yu, Ren Zhongxiang and Tang Shoulin. Zhang Qizhen is referenced numerous times, though it is never quiet clear what he is alleged to have said. Zhang Qizhen is the only person in these names who has personally been interviewed and yet his evidence is the least clear.

As far as I am able to tell at this time, the news paper publication in 1934 was the start of the claims against Nee as a somewhat fickle individual with specific reference to morality in relation to women. The substance of that article will make for a real insight of itself. I have learned one thing from this process, as little as it has been, and that is the complexity of connections and individuals involved in either supporting or else maintaining a testimony of hate against Nee. The only people who appear to feel a need to dress that up in anything remotely resembling a claim to a spiritual benefit has been Dr Hsu. Yet remarkably her claims run way and beyond anything said previously. That is particularly true of the sexual accusations. In that department she has excelled all others.

Having seen the Admin's last post telling us that this is a discussion and not a debate I may as well leave at this point and therefore formally ask the Admin to remove me from the site forthwith. You cannot reasonably discuss a book which systematically and completely destroys a man, his work and his calling, and which then concludes that he is in heaven (maybe) having been cleansed by the evil actions of an atheistic government supported by numbers of men who have taken the name of Christ as their Lord and Saviour, and we ought to be grateful that we have his suffering and destruction as our example from the hand of God! If that is the God Hsu serves then I say she is serving the devil and not the Father in heaven.
06-17-2014 01:06 PM
Terry
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OBW View Post
For me, even though it stands as potentially no more than happenstance, it is the similarities between the incidents now reported about Nee and those that are much more substantiated that are known about Lee's sons and the manner in which they were dealt with that removes at least some of the uncertainty that might be attributable to the accounts concerning Nee.
One of the long-time unanswered questions is how Lee's sons could conduct themselves (in the same manner as the sons of Eli) and their father would look the other way?
Did Timothy and Phillip have prior knowledge from mainland China that could adversely impact their father's ministry?
Question I have, was Lee essential to Nee resuming his ministry in 1948?
06-17-2014 12:54 PM
Terry
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UntoHim View Post
Point well taken Terry (I think!)

The problem, or "issue" as you call it, becomes all the more muddled because facts are so hard to come by when discussing the teachings, practices and history of the Local Church of Nee & Lee. There is so much double-speak in the ministries of both these men (and out of the mouths of most of their defenders) that "seeking and investigating for truth" can become an exercise is futility. But, hey, apparently most of us out here have enough time on our hands to give it a go, so maybe it won't turn out to be as futile as I think.
Maybe it's just me, but the LC teachings (through the ministries of Nee and Lee) by themselves are generally not too bad. It's when you couple the teachings with the practices, have I in particular become skeptical.
Too often has a word been given by Witness Lee or by blended brothers and it has been hastily received and believed without fact-finding to verify it's accuracy. For example those of us that had been in the local churches during the 70's and 80's, there were events termed as rebellion. What was the rebellion? For the most part, if you are seeking the truth regarding this period you'll find so called rebellious brothers were actually brothers under the headship of Christ and as such couldn't be one with the direction of Living Stream Ministry.
Related to this thread what is fact and what is hearsay?
06-17-2014 11:34 AM
UntoHim
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

aron, thanks for the further explanation.

Maybe I'm still misunderstanding what your saying, but I don't see anybody here simply taking everything that is written in this book "at face value". Hey, and even if somebody did, it's not against forum rules to take something at face value. Conversely, however, I do see some rejecting of just about everything out of hand, and while doing so, are pointing their fingers at other forum members as if they were the ones actually making the accusations.

What I think is needed more of here on this thread is actual DISCUSSION....You know, that third word in the name of this place...Local Church Discussions. There is a reason why it is call Local Church Discussions and not Local Church Debates. Many forums have dedicated forum boards or threads for members to enter into debates. I do see a line, albeit a fine line, between discussions and debates. Debates usually have a goal to find out "who's right", or "who's more right than the other guy". Most of the things we discuss around this place simply cannot have that kind of outcome, and this thread is a perfect example. None of us know what actually took place there in mainland China all those decades ago. Some of us can take an "educated guess" and some can just plain guess.
06-17-2014 10:13 AM
aron
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UntoHim View Post
First of all, let's not focus too heavily on Dana Roberts, at least not on this thread. Sure, he's worth mentioning for obvious reasons, but let's not link the credibility or veracity of Hsu's testimony to that of Roberts.

Dana Roberts was already well established as a journalist long before he met Dr. Hsu. He had already written extensively about the life, times and ministry of Watchman Nee. He did not need her to "further his career". It seems to me that Hsu's testimony simply confirmed what he had heard from numerous other sources.
If someone presents what is ostensibly truth, information, evidence, or facts, it might behoove the recipient to ask, "Who is presenting me with this information, and how is it being presented, and why?" This may be difficult to answer, or nearly impossible. But it's still worth considering, and asking, and not taking everything one sees or hears or reads at face value. Surely we learned that from our time w/Lee & Co.

Really, that's all I'm trying to say. If I've gone overboard in saying it, well, that's probably typical of me. But I felt provoked by the obviously biased, even disingenuous presentation, combined with the unquestioning credulity of the public.
06-17-2014 09:54 AM
UntoHim
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
My perception of the work in question is that Hsu's memoirs presented Roberts with an opportunity to further his career as a journalist and scholar....
Roberts likely got played, and he wittingly or unwittingly became the vector for these stories because it furthered his own journey.
First of all, let's not focus too heavily on Dana Roberts, at least not on this thread. Sure, he's worth mentioning for obvious reasons, but let's not link the credibility or veracity of Hsu's testimony to that of Roberts.

Dana Roberts was already well established as a journalist long before he met Dr. Hsu. He had already written extensively about the life, times and ministry of Watchman Nee. He did not need her to "further his career". It seems to me that Hsu's testimony simply confirmed what he had heard from numerous other sources.
06-17-2014 08:53 AM
awareness
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew
Take just one thing in this book and you could run with it until you had another book to write. In short there is no where to go with it. The Lord knows.
Amen bro Andrew, and Amen again. The Lord knows. But Hsu and Roberts are claiming to know also. And they want us to know too. And the Lord is silent on the matter.
06-17-2014 08:11 AM
awareness
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
If you've been waiting for Lily Hsu to come along, to figure out that Nee was human, you've been waiting far too long.
Touché bro aron. But I have to say that I didn't need Hsu's book for closure. The LC forums accomplished that.

Not that I needed closure, I've been over Nee, Lee, and the LC for decades.

Why I'm still talking about them is beyond me. Perhaps it's a kind of neurosis.
06-17-2014 07:00 AM
amrkelly
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
My perception of the work in question is that Hsu's memoirs presented Roberts with an opportunity to further his career as a journalist and scholar. But Hsu's recollections covered the fact that someone was feeding them a mass of information. And just who might that be, pray tell? Who might have an interest in seeing Nee discredited? Obviously the PRC. The Shouters, the Eastern Lightning, the House Churches, the Little Flock, the Shanghai Assembly; whatever you want to call them they are a threat to communist hegemony and thus "the state", just as they were back in 1954.

Roberts likely got played, and he wittingly or unwittingly became the vector for these stories because it furthered his own journey. Everybody loves a scandal and now Roberts could wave one. Interestingly, who then picks up the banner, and heralds it as the "truth about Watchman Nee"? Former members of Nee-affiliated groups; I guess now they can get "closure". Well, if this is what you needed, fine. Nee may have been as morally corrupt as Hsu alleges. But her memoirs is not a good source of info on Nee, unless you want your mind made up for you.
Your point about getting "closure" is a good point Aron. Who could deny someone that right and liberty if they had a bad experience, no matter who is at fault. Our enemy is not flesh and blood, it is the devil himself, so we are all victims and participants in his wickedness at times. I would have liked to have seen this book written in a more personal sense where Dr Hsu shared what she genuinely believed and did so with the caveat that she didn't actually know about these things until the PRC told her. I suppose she has said that in a simple sense, but the problem seems to be that the PRC is still the only source of documented information on Nee. At what point do you say that despite the obvious problem of the PRC atheistic determination, you nevertheless still believe at least the central idea that Nee was a man who had affairs with two of his co-workers in his twenties and what the context of that really was.

As the Admin has said, realising that he was flesh and blood is no great thing if we remember that we are as well. I am looking into a report that a denominational News Paper ran an article on Nee just after he married, which may correspond with the 1942 disclosure in SCA regarding Zhang Qinian. The paper reported that Nee had broken off an engagement with a young woman to whom he was betrothed in order to marry Charity. In the book Hsu makes mention of an idea which supports this view because on three occasions she refers to incidences, taken from others writings, that Nee and Zhang Qinian were expected to marry at one time. She even uses the words "If Nee had not intended to marry her (Zhang) why did he take the pictures".

Give that some real thought and you will realise what the implication is on various levels. Firstly taking nude pictures of a sister, whether she is going to become your wife or not, is itself a serious breach of trust and a sin. As this happened in 1934 according to the book, then it was just a few months before Nee married Charity in October 1934. The reality is that none of the "facts" make any sense in their present form. They are confused. The Christian Newspaper report from 1934 speaks about another woman and not Zhang Qinian in any event. But it does form the basis for speculation and attacks. Why was that report printed in a public newspaper, is another question as well. It may be only necessary to point out that Nee was seriously distrusted by the Denominations in China because he rejected their denominational position and what that meant for the Chinese people.

Take just one thing in this book and you could run with it until you had another book to write. In short there is no where to go with it. The Lord knows.
06-17-2014 06:57 AM
aron
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
Is it a mistake to see Nee as human? I think the mistake is seeing Nee as more than human.
If you've been waiting for Lily Hsu to come along, to figure out that Nee was human, you've been waiting far too long.
06-17-2014 06:53 AM
awareness
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
so the Hsu/Roberts tome is likewise only going to give some satisfaction to those who need to see Nee taken down.
Is it a mistake to see Nee as human? I think the mistake is seeing Nee as more than human.
06-17-2014 06:22 AM
aron
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
Roberts likely got played, and he wittingly or unwittingly became the vector for these stories because it furthered his own journey.
Dana Roberts in this instance reminds me of Peter Arnett, a reporter for CNN who became the vehicle for Saddam Hussein's PR efforts in the first Gulf War. Hussein's government claimed that a building bombed by the U.S. was used for infant formula production. American news teams filmed people wearing jumpsuits, freshly stenciled in English, to support this "fact". I copy from Wikipedia's page on Arnett, below.

The image of a crudely made hand-painted sign reading "Baby Milk" in English and Arabic in front of the factory, and a lab coat dressed in a suit containing stitched lettering reading "BABY MILK PLANT IRAQ" only served to further the perception that purportedly civilian targets were simply being made to look like that by Saddam Hussein, and that Arnett was duped by the Iraqi government. The sign appeared to have been added by the Iraqis before the camera crews arrived as a cheap publicity ploy.

Arnett ... was insistent that "Whatever else it did, it did produce infant formula". Described as being a veritable fortress by the Pentagon, the plant, Arnett reported, had only one guard at the gate and a lot of powdered baby milk. "That's as much as I could tell you about it ... it looked innocent enough from what we could see." A CNN camera crew had been invited to tour this plant in August 1990. They videotaped workers wearing new uniforms with lettering in English reading, "Iraq Baby Milk Plant".


The building may have been associated with infant formula production. But I wouldn't decide based on Iraqi PR; independent verification might be in order. Likewise, a critical reader of Hsu & Roberts' book may not be terribly impressed. Someone who heard someone say something is now an "eyewitness" presenting "facts" about Nee... sorry, no; that's not how history works.
06-17-2014 06:04 AM
aron
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amrkelly View Post
... where the information comes from outside of the Official Record of the PRC. Dana Roberts has taken delight and not a little comfort from the fact that he was able to speak to several officials in China when he visited there from Hainan Province. What he fails to realize is that the Chinese despise European, and especially American perceptions of intellect, which... falls to the floor like dead weight compared to their own ingrained culture of noble deception. Roberts in an amateur at it. The Chinese are the masters.
My perception of the work in question is that Hsu's memoirs presented Roberts with an opportunity to further his career as a journalist and scholar. But Hsu's recollections covered the fact that someone was feeding them a mass of information. And just who might that be, pray tell? Who might have an interest in seeing Nee discredited? Obviously the PRC. The Shouters, the Eastern Lightning, the House Churches, the Little Flock, the Shanghai Assembly; whatever you want to call them they are a threat to communist hegemony and thus "the state", just as they were back in 1954.

Roberts likely got played, and he wittingly or unwittingly became the vector for these stories because it furthered his own journey. Everybody loves a scandal and now Roberts could wave one. Interestingly, who then picks up the banner, and heralds it as the "truth about Watchman Nee"? Former members of Nee-affiliated groups; I guess now they can get "closure". Well, if this is what you needed, fine. Nee may have been as morally corrupt as Hsu alleges. But her memoirs is not a good source of info on Nee, unless you want your mind made up for you.
06-17-2014 12:06 AM
amrkelly
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OBW View Post
For all AMRK's complaint about how everything is hearsay, I suggest the same about his contrary evidence. From my seat of mostly silence on this subject, I note that he has provided an alternate theory of the events that relies on the determination (without anything more than conjecture or hearsay) that everyone in the account had an axe to grind, or was just making the stuff up. In other words, there is no more evidence that his version of it all is right than there is that Hsu is right.

Or is there? The accounts put into the book are attributed to more than one person. And to more than this Joshua Yu, who appears to be a source of some of the information. Yet AMRK has not provided anything that I can recall that makes JY's accounts anything less than those of a historian who collected the information as it occurred.

It would seem that nothing will be accepted unless it was recorded in some kind of official way, and was either provided to the police (excluding the communists during the purges) or was published in a book close to the time of the alleged events.

In fact, it would seem that AMRK does not think that the three women who are alleged to be the source of the claims are actually the source. Or if they are, the fact that we may be hearing it through the account of one Joshua Yu makes them irrelevant. That the "personal" part of Hsu's story can be discounted because she was already disillusioned when she first heard what she now claims is the truth.

For me, even though it stands as potentially no more than happenstance, it is the similarities between the incidents now reported about Nee and those that are much more substantiated that are known about Lee's sons and the manner in which they were dealt with that removes at least some of the uncertainty that might be attributable to the accounts concerning Nee.

Meanwhile, AMRK is busy providing mostly ad hominems concerning those who are credited with the material in Hsu's books, not facts that stand in opposition to those in the book, while leveling ad hominems against those who don't simply take his word for it. For all the accounts of AMRK's level-headedness and potential for having actual evidence, he comes here with anything but level-headedness and provides nothing but alternate theories and ad hominems.

I'm tired of it. It reeks. I've dealt with people who interview well, get the job, then turn out to be psychopaths of one sort or another. He can make all the irrelevant comments about whether he thinks some of the sources just didn't like Nee anymore. But if he cannot keep from assaulting the membership of the forum, it is time to actually remove him. And his opening salvo after being heavily moderated makes it look as though he has no intention of playing nice.
By the way sweetie pie, I just wanted to say that pointing out that the reference section of the book states that there is just one source, outside of the PRC, and the author, that Nee was a rapist and sexual monster, and comes via Joshua Yu, and variously Joshua Yu on all other references to rape, is not an ad hominem, it is a fact. This is the conclusion from the book itself party pooper. I realise that interviewing people for jobs may not require an ability to read precisely, but ordinarily reading a book, sort of does requires an ability to read. Bless! if you need any help there my dear chap, don't call me I don't speak Americana. Although I just love speaking with Harold, he is a real American and that is a fact. I get my Irish Wolf hound to translate in real time. Seems to work well enough. Toodle Pip then old boy!
06-16-2014 10:07 PM
amrkelly
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UntoHim View Post
Wow, along with being a world-class blowhard, looks like you're a wannabe private investigator too. Well let me tell you something Sherlock, a witness's testimony is best disputed by facts and testimonies to the contrary, and not the ability to rattle off home addresses, type of employment or other personal statistics.



Dude, I ask myself a lot of things when it comes to you....and the biggest thing is how I let Harold talk me into letting you resume full participation. I couldn't care less why you have gone to so much trouble, although I suspect you have done so because you have swallowed hook, line and sinker everything that Watchman Nee and his followers have ever said about him. You can't stand to bear even the slightest chink in his armor, much less anything that would show that the man was simply mortal flesh and blood just like the rest of us. (and so are the people who have accused Nee, and so are the people who defend him as well.)

Oh, and you needn't worry about coming close to any lines when it comes to this forum Andrew....you blew past every line I could possibly think of with your first few posts.
Just in case you didn't know it, that response was more than illuminating. You don't know the meaning of substance do you? Is that the best you can do? You facilitate the other members by telling them openly that you cannot spend the time "dealing" with me, and then when one of them calls me a psychopath and openly mocks me you have no backbone to say anything.

Quote:
Actually Andrew Kelly was not banned, but all his posts had to go through the moderation que. I took this action after receiving NUMEROUS complaints from longtime forum members, and warning him several times. As I recall, he got really personal with some other posters and I just can't have that on the forum.

In any event, I have restored his ability to post in real time. But be advised that any punch below the belt will put him back in the penalty box tout de suite. Also I'm not going to spend a lot of time and energy moderating Andrew, you other members are going to have to do it for me.
How can you even pretend to have any substance? If you cannot do your job then give it to someone who can; but stop telling me in that bizarre manner of yours that I have made a personal attack on you because I made a vague allusion to you in a none offensive way.

Quote:
Andrew,

I don't believe that Dr. Hsu's "accusations" are based solely upon the prosecution of the communist government. She apparently had some kind of inside knowledge of some of the events in question. (YOU)

In any event the simple reality, despite what some may appear to need to believe &Sic....... (ME)
I can see why that comment of mine was below the belt. You obviously had your head in the clouds when you wrote yours.

That same point I made however, has been made by at least one other in the last 24 hours. Your very first post in response to me when I joined this forum was "go easy on him boys". Pathetic! Not one of you has any backbone. Go easy? Don't make me laugh. And why did you intercede for me? Because I had the audacity to tell your membership plainly that Americans abuse their freedom. I based that comment on what I had read on this site, not a comic book in the toilet block. I wasn't distracted when I said it, I really do believe it.

Do you realise that over 60,000 individual readings have been made of this particular thread? Do you know why in the last five months the thread has attracted five times the number of visits than it did in the previous 18 months? I have no idea, but judging by the fact that my own web stats tell me that I get 25 times more visits from China than the USA on my own web sites seems to allude to the possibility that there are a great number of brethren in China who would like some real answers to the question of why Nee is still being singled out for hatred. Go figure it out. Then when you have done, perhaps you and the big men on here, who tell me they know how to deal with a polite English boy, can start to actually post some substance instead of the school boy garbage that they have posted on this thread. If I mock your comments, it is because despite numerous attempts to facilitate a real discussion, you appear to be incapable of common sense.

Cut the rhetoric and prove the book. Otherwise others will start to think that it's a bag of garbage after all.
06-16-2014 08:11 PM
UntoHim
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amrkelly View Post
As for whether I am somehow expressing an opinion, I would suggest you do some real homework yourself. Track down some of the players in this book. I have and I know where every one of them lives, what they do for a living where they go to church, whether they are married or divorced, how many children they have, who they have remarried and so on and so forth.
Wow, along with being a world-class blowhard, looks like you're a wannabe private investigator too. Well let me tell you something Sherlock, a witness's testimony is best disputed by facts and testimonies to the contrary, and not the ability to rattle off home addresses, type of employment or other personal statistics.

Quote:
You may ask yourself why I would go to so much trouble. The answer is a simple one. Know what manner of man or woman you are dealing with in their private lives and you will know what manner of man or woman you are dealing with altogether. That is as close to the line as I am prepared to go on this forum.
Dude, I ask myself a lot of things when it comes to you....and the biggest thing is how I let Harold talk me into letting you resume full participation. I couldn't care less why you have gone to so much trouble, although I suspect you have done so because you have swallowed hook, line and sinker everything that Watchman Nee and his followers have ever said about him. You can't stand to bear even the slightest chink in his armor, much less anything that would show that the man was simply mortal flesh and blood just like the rest of us. (and so are the people who have accused Nee, and so are the people who defend him as well.)

Oh, and you needn't worry about coming close to any lines when it comes to this forum Andrew....you blew past every line I could possibly think of with your first few posts.
06-16-2014 05:48 PM
amrkelly
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UntoHim View Post
Actually Andrew Kelly was not banned, but all his posts had to go through the moderation que. I took this action after receiving NUMEROUS complaints from longtime forum members, and warning him several times. As I recall, he got really personal with some other posters and I just can't have that on the forum.
In any event, I have restored his ability to post in real time. But be advised that any punch below the belt will put him back in the penalty box tout de suite. Also I'm not going to spend a lot of time and energy moderating Andrew, you other members are going to have to do it for me.
Quote:
Meanwhile, AMRK is busy providing mostly ad hominems concerning those who are credited with the material in Hsu's books, not facts that stand in opposition to those in the book, while levelling ad hominems against those who don't simply take his word for it. For all the accounts of AMRK's level-headedness and potential for having actual evidence, he comes here with anything but level-headedness and provides nothing but alternate theories and ad hominems.

I'm tired of it. It reeks. I've dealt with people who interview well, get the job, then turn out to be psychopaths of one sort or another. He can make all the irrelevant comments about whether he thinks some of the sources just didn't like Nee anymore. But if he cannot keep from assaulting the membership of the forum, it is time to actually remove him. And his opening salvo after being heavily moderated makes it look as though he has no intention of playing nice.
Perhaps I could suggest that this is a real ad hominem as it speaks to a claim that I am a psychopath. In future Admin you would be better served in the Lord if you actually moderated instead of giving licence to others to make deliberate and wilful attacks on individuals. Now you can remove me if you wish. I couldn't care less.

For the record OBW if you simply troubled to actually read the book and take a few notes, many of which I have provided on this site for your convenience, you would be able to make a sound judgement yourself. As it is your rhetoric is simply personal and represents no more than a reaction. My own comments are less of a reaction, but are deliberate calculated and wilful. As to the notes I have provided they are intelligent and clear. Why don't you actually follow them and respond in a manner which contradicts them meaningfully? Don't confuse my ability to provoke with anything other than the actions of one having a clear purpose. I am not a psychopath and your inferring it is offensive. That is now the fourth time on this site my mental health has been called into question.
06-16-2014 04:47 PM
amrkelly
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
We apparently have, as amrkelly says, some people reporting what they have been told, all of which has apparently been dutifully recorded by Hsu. I have two problems, which when combined make this a poor book.

First, from my cursory reading, it didn't appear that Hsu and/or Roberts had presented an objective and unbiased set of sources, and let the reader sort through it for some semblance of reality. No; in true prosecutorial style they wave 'evidence' that's probably hearsay, while other testimonies (not LSM, but independent and/or verifiable sources) which might ameliorate or even negate them, or provide balance, are ignored. Hsu/Roberts start with their conclusion and shape, or distort, the narrative to fit.

Second, the book is packaged and sold to the reading public as an eye-witness account, when the contents are actually an amalgam of some personal recollections and the above-mentioned hatchet job.

I am not a fan of Watchman Nee. Some of his "spiritual" books impressed me years ago, but his "church life" books don't, my having passed through the Local Church system. Whether or not the Lee church is a virulent off-shoot of the "recovered church" of Nee, or if it carried out his programme to a "t" is another conversation. Certainly I have some bias; I do have my history.

So I don't need Nee's reputation or legacy to be preserved; quite the opposite. Yet I find this book to be insulting, frankly. I think it's been disingenuously packaged and sold. People with a pathological need to discredit Nee might take heart at its contents, but I can't see how anyone with a fondness for any semblance of objective "fact" or "truth" can be encouraged by this work.

Anyone has a right to their reminiscences, and anyone has a right to pen a polemic (I've put out a few on this forum). But I think we're looking at a weakly constructed polemic, thinly disguised as a memoir.
The difficulty in all of this is because this is in fact, the only book which makes these claims about Nee. Others have made statements amounting to no more than reporting things which were said to them directly, such as Xi Lian. There is also the difficulty of double speak as someone said. Then there is the difficulty of the language barrier, and the lack of meaningful access to original records. Then we have those records themselves, which being predominately in China, form an official record. Xi Lian was given access to the original records in the HQ of the TSPM and yet chose to disregard the whole file. He was present when the record were drawn and even speaks of the dust which had gathered on the files. Dust means no one is looking, in library speak.

Then we have deliberate dishonesty, self delusion, spiritual deception and a host of other problems. How would one cut through all that then? It is real easy. Ask the Lord and follow your conscience. Then you will know and know for sure. The rest may well be a task of sufferance, but the effort is worth it if you have a reason to say so. In this instance I would be very happily to stand in the presence of Dana Roberts and Lilly Hsu and say to their faces that they have laid their hands to a lie. They would no doubt say that they have written from the record, and I would have to ask which record, and they would have to say The Peoples Republic of China. Nothing to do with the church at all in China, but everything to do with the Communist government of China, and with the help of a few chosen men who are deluded into thinking that they are doing a spiritual service, and can justify it on the grounds that a Government has said so.

There is no need to show proof in this instance as the burden of proof is on the accusers. Their evidence is a shambles and a fraud. It makes me laugh to read these reactions once again and it serves to remind me why I choose to disassociate myself from the predominance of comments. I have spoken with Harold over the last 3 months for more than 15 hours altogether and have e-mailed him numerous examples of where the information comes from outside of the Official Record of the PRC. Dana Roberts has taken delight and not a little comfort from the fact that he was able to speak to several officials in China when he visited there from Hainan Province. What he fails to realise is that the Chinese despise European, and especially American perceptions of intellect, which in the presence of men and women who are given over to complete belief in hidden realities for the sake of purpose, falls to the floor like dead weight compared to their own ingrained culture of noble deception. Roberts in an amateur at it. The Chinese are the masters. Where Russian failed and ended up with a 90% Christianised nation after seventy years of Communist rule, China succeeded and have accomplished a 90% atheistic reality. They accomplished it through the art of deception and that means to be your friend in order to deceive you with a truth that all right minded men are obedient citizens and commit to serve in the propagation of the lie, despite yourself. Thus deception becomes a cloak for oneself to say Amen, and a mantra to express ones own inner disappointment.
06-16-2014 04:31 PM
amrkelly
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OBW View Post
For all AMRK's complaint about how everything is hearsay, I suggest the same about his contrary evidence. From my seat of mostly silence on this subject, I note that he has provided an alternate theory of the events that relies on the determination (without anything more than conjecture or hearsay) that everyone in the account had an axe to grind, or was just making the stuff up. In other words, there is no more evidence that his version of it all is right than there is that Hsu is right.

Or is there? The accounts put into the book are attributed to more than one person. And to more than this Joshua Yu, who appears to be a source of some of the information. Yet AMRK has not provided anything that I can recall that makes JY's accounts anything less than those of a historian who collected the information as it occurred.

It would seem that nothing will be accepted unless it was recorded in some kind of official way, and was either provided to the police (excluding the communists during the purges) or was published in a book close to the time of the alleged events.

In fact, it would seem that AMRK does not think that the three women who are alleged to be the source of the claims are actually the source. Or if they are, the fact that we may be hearing it through the account of one Joshua Yu makes them irrelevant. That the "personal" part of Hsu's story can be discounted because she was already disillusioned when she first heard what she now claims is the truth.

For me, even though it stands as potentially no more than happenstance, it is the similarities between the incidents now reported about Nee and those that are much more substantiated that are known about Lee's sons and the manner in which they were dealt with that removes at least some of the uncertainty that might be attributable to the accounts concerning Nee.

Meanwhile, AMRK is busy providing mostly ad hominems concerning those who are credited with the material in Hsu's books, not facts that stand in opposition to those in the book, while leveling ad hominems against those who don't simply take his word for it. For all the accounts of AMRK's level-headedness and potential for having actual evidence, he comes here with anything but level-headedness and provides nothing but alternate theories and ad hominems.

I'm tired of it. It reeks. I've dealt with people who interview well, get the job, then turn out to be psychopaths of one sort or another. He can make all the irrelevant comments about whether he thinks some of the sources just didn't like Nee anymore. But if he cannot keep from assaulting the membership of the forum, it is time to actually remove him. And his opening salvo after being heavily moderated makes it look as though he has no intention of playing nice.
So let me see then OBW, after just one post, you feel it is acceptable to impute a rash of vitriolic garbage against me, and ask for me to be removed from the site. You are real fine chap obviously. Anytime you want to deal with me personally please feel free to e-mail me amrkelly@ichabod.eu I will be happy to say what I mean much more plainly and in your own hearing.

As for whether I am somehow expressing an opinion, I would suggest you do some real homework yourself. Track down some of the players in this book. I have and I know where every one of them lives, what they do for a living where they go to church, whether they are married or divorced, how many children they have, who they have remarried and so on and so forth. I have e-mailed all of these reports to Harold and whilst he has been sensible enough to keep them to himself he can confirm what I am saying.

You may ask yourself why I would go to so much trouble. The answer is a simple one. Know what manner of man or woman you are dealing with in their private lives and you will know what manner of man or woman you are dealing with altogether. That is as close to the line as I am prepared to go on this forum.

As far as research goes into publications, reading them and making cross references, checking how one author references the same or a similar statement to another author, in what year they carried out their research and where they published, who published and why they published, all contribute to a clear picture. You have no idea about any of this because you sit behind a keyboard and pontificate about other people in a thinly veiled contempt of rational and reasonable insight.

Go your way OBW you are an amateur and a fraud.

By the way why don't you contact Dana Roberts and Lilly Hsu they would love to hear from you no doubt. Here are a few links which will give you a heads up.

https://www.facebook.com/Hainan1
https://www.facebook.com/lily.hsu.9212301

That should give you sufficient information to make your complaint directly then we will see who's bluffing and what I really mean to say.
06-16-2014 03:56 PM
aron
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
Hsu/Roberts present no empirical evidence against Nee, of his supposed sexual infractions. And I don't think we can get anything but hints here and there, of what really went on with Nee in China, that produces any degree of certainty.

... Nee is only so important to those that are in the movement Nee founded.
Look at these 2 statements, side by side: they perhaps indicate that just as Nee is only so important to those that are in the movement Nee founded, so the Hsu/Roberts tome is likewise only going to give some satisfaction to those who need to see Nee taken down. The only ones who get "any degree of certainty" from Hsu & Roberts are going to be those who need it. Which means that they arguably didn't learn anything from their time in the Nee/Lee camp.

First they believed all the Witness Lee campfire stories about Saint Nee and "the history of the Local Church", then they believe the Hsu/Roberts allegations. Like the woman who swallowed the spider to catch the fly, they didn't learn anything the first time.
06-16-2014 03:51 PM
amrkelly
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UntoHim View Post
Pretty not so subtle ad hominem. Keep em above the belt there, champ.



Of course it's her own testimony....after all, it's the only one she can call her own! So everything that Nee "accusers" claim is "alleged", but everything Nee defenders claim is matter-of-fact gospel truth? Nah, most of us gave up that kind of black and white thinking when we escaped the Local Church movement. What happened to those elders and deacons at the hands of ungodly thugs (though awful) is not relevant to the veracity of Dr. Hsu's testimony.

I understand that you want to paint Dr. Hsu is the worst possible light, and as far as I'm concerned she has set herself up for this kind of inspection, however I think you will find more willing ears for your arguments and contentions if you simply present the testimonies of these other parties.


So you've boiled the whole matter down to this, aye? I would expect such a claim from one of those speed reader fellows who pitch their wares on late night TV, after he skimmed the book in 5 minutes, but not from somebody who claims to be as well informed as you. Shame on you.
My comment or as you put it my ad hominem, was clear enough. For the record I never hit people below the belt. I do it straight to their face and in full visibility.
06-16-2014 03:50 PM
aron
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
I can't speak for everyone that believes Hsu's book, but my inclination ((if I can call it that) to believe it follows thusly:

Rape is a crime of violence and power. And I/we lived under Nee's power system with his deputy/delegated authority. That reveals Nee obviously had a fetish for power. Sure, that doesn't prove rape either, just something that makes it sound plausible.
Here is my inclilnation: someone with a master's degree in history, or theology, or whatever Roberts has for training, has quite an incentive to be the one who pulls down one of the most influential Christian writers and thinkers of the 20th century. Now he will be, "Dana Roberts, the giant slayer." Look at the title of his last work, before this one. "Secrets of Watchman Nee." I.e, I know something you don't. Then along comes Lily Hsu and he has his next mouthpiece.

Now he can go on the lecture circuit. "Dana Roberts, author of 3 influential books on Watchman Nee". Etc.

Now this is just conjecture. But it makes as much sense to me, probably, as yours does to you. And both could be true.
06-16-2014 03:29 PM
OBW
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

For all AMRK's complaint about how everything is hearsay, I suggest the same about his contrary evidence. From my seat of mostly silence on this subject, I note that he has provided an alternate theory of the events that relies on the determination (without anything more than conjecture or hearsay) that everyone in the account had an axe to grind, or was just making the stuff up. In other words, there is no more evidence that his version of it all is right than there is that Hsu is right.

Or is there? The accounts put into the book are attributed to more than one person. And to more than this Joshua Yu, who appears to be a source of some of the information. Yet AMRK has not provided anything that I can recall that makes JY's accounts anything less than those of a historian who collected the information as it occurred.

It would seem that nothing will be accepted unless it was recorded in some kind of official way, and was either provided to the police (excluding the communists during the purges) or was published in a book close to the time of the alleged events.

In fact, it would seem that AMRK does not think that the three women who are alleged to be the source of the claims are actually the source. Or if they are, the fact that we may be hearing it through the account of one Joshua Yu makes them irrelevant. That the "personal" part of Hsu's story can be discounted because she was already disillusioned when she first heard what she now claims is the truth.

For me, even though it stands as potentially no more than happenstance, it is the similarities between the incidents now reported about Nee and those that are much more substantiated that are known about Lee's sons and the manner in which they were dealt with that removes at least some of the uncertainty that might be attributable to the accounts concerning Nee.

Meanwhile, AMRK is busy providing mostly ad hominems concerning those who are credited with the material in Hsu's books, not facts that stand in opposition to those in the book, while leveling ad hominems against those who don't simply take his word for it. For all the accounts of AMRK's level-headedness and potential for having actual evidence, he comes here with anything but level-headedness and provides nothing but alternate theories and ad hominems.

I'm tired of it. It reeks. I've dealt with people who interview well, get the job, then turn out to be psychopaths of one sort or another. He can make all the irrelevant comments about whether he thinks some of the sources just didn't like Nee anymore. But if he cannot keep from assaulting the membership of the forum, it is time to actually remove him. And his opening salvo after being heavily moderated makes it look as though he has no intention of playing nice.
06-16-2014 03:23 PM
awareness
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

By the way, there's a wonderful post concerning Lily's book by brother znpaaneah, that's well worth the read, at:
http://forum.thebereans.net/showthre...l-Indiscretion
06-16-2014 02:49 PM
UntoHim
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry View Post
Not with just this thread, but with most threads in regard to Watchman Nee, Witness Lee, and the local churches, one of the issues is accepting hearsay as fact instead of seeking and investigating for truth to distinguish what is accurate and what is not.
Point well taken Terry (I think!)

The problem, or "issue" as you call it, becomes all the more muddled because facts are so hard to come by when discussing the teachings, practices and history of the Local Church of Nee & Lee. There is so much double-speak in the ministries of both these men (and out of the mouths of most of their defenders) that "seeking and investigating for truth" can become an exercise is futility. But, hey, apparently most of us out here have enough time on our hands to give it a go, so maybe it won't turn out to be as futile as I think.
06-16-2014 02:45 PM
awareness
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Now, now, boys. Let's not get started. Keep on topic. Let's allow a little Leeway to Andrew. After all, he is British. And he can't help his culture and heritage, any more than Nee and Lee could help their culture and heritage, that seems to leak out of their theology.
06-16-2014 02:17 PM
UntoHim
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amrkelly View Post
In any event the simple reality, despite what some may appear to need to believe,
Pretty not so subtle ad hominem. Keep em above the belt there, champ.

Quote:
As far as Miao Yunchun is concerned Hsu relies entirely on her own testimony. She takes her witness from herself in an alleged face to face discussion with Miao Yunchun in 1956 when she was acting as secretary for the TSPM appointed committee who were put in place to run SCA after all the elders and deacons were taken away for torture and to be murdered and abused.
Of course it's her own testimony....after all, it's the only one she can call her own! So everything that Nee "accusers" claim is "alleged", but everything Nee defenders claim is matter-of-fact gospel truth? Nah, most of us gave up that kind of black and white thinking when we escaped the Local Church movement. What happened to those elders and deacons at the hands of ungodly thugs (though awful) is not relevant to the veracity of Dr. Hsu's testimony.

I understand that you want to paint Dr. Hsu is the worst possible light, and as far as I'm concerned she has set herself up for this kind of inspection, however I think you will find more willing ears for your arguments and contentions if you simply present the testimonies of these other parties.

Quote:
Conversations by persons who have no evidence, no proper and material recollection and no formal statement to make, amounts to gossip. Shame on them all.
So you've boiled the whole matter down to this, aye? I would expect such a claim from one of those speed reader fellows who pitch their wares on late night TV, after he skimmed the book in 5 minutes, but not from somebody who claims to be as well informed as you. Shame on you.
06-16-2014 01:44 PM
awareness
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry View Post
Not with just this thread, but with most threads in regard to Watchman Nee, Witness Lee, and the local churches, one of the issues is accepting hearsay as fact instead of seeking and investigating for truth to distinguish what is accurate and what is not.
So thank God we have Andrew Kelly to balance this insanity.

And aron, it is true. Hsu/Roberts present no empirical evidence against Nee, of his supposed sexual infractions. And I don't think we can get anything but hints here and there, of what really went on with Nee in China, that produces any degree of certainty.

It's lost history.

But like you say, "I don't need Nee's reputation or legacy to be preserved..."

So in the end, Nee is not all that important to our Christian walk today. Nee is only so important to those that are in the movement Nee founded. And even that has probably been twisted and contorted, beyond recognition, by Witness Lee ... who was not a Watchman Nee, in any way, shape, or form.
06-16-2014 12:42 PM
Terry
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Not with just this thread, but with most threads in regard to Watchman Nee, Witness Lee, and the local churches, one of the issues is accepting hearsay as fact instead of seeking and investigating for truth to distinguish what is accurate and what is not.

‘Now if a person sins after he hears a public adjuration to testify when he is a witness, whether he has seen or otherwise known, if he does not tell it, then he will bear his guilt. Leviticus 5:1
06-16-2014 10:15 AM
aron
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amrkelly View Post
Xi Lian ... personally interviewed Zhang Qizhen in China and from whom he received the broad information-that in 1942 Nee's affair with two of his co-workers came to light-and resulted in problems for him at that time. Even in this context Lian Xi is simply reporting what he has been told.
We apparently have, as amrkelly says, some people reporting what they have been told, all of which has apparently been dutifully recorded by Hsu. I have two problems, which when combined make this a poor book.

First, from my cursory reading, it didn't appear that Hsu and/or Roberts had presented an objective and unbiased set of sources, and let the reader sort through it for some semblance of reality. No; in true prosecutorial style they wave 'evidence' that's probably hearsay, while other testimonies (not LSM, but independent and/or verifiable sources) which might ameliorate or even negate them, or provide balance, are ignored. Hsu/Roberts start with their conclusion and shape, or distort, the narrative to fit.

Second, the book is packaged and sold to the reading public as an eye-witness account, when the contents are actually an amalgam of some personal recollections and the above-mentioned hatchet job.

I am not a fan of Watchman Nee. Some of his "spiritual" books impressed me years ago, but his "church life" books don't, my having passed through the Local Church system. Whether or not the Lee church is a virulent off-shoot of the "recovered church" of Nee, or if it carried out his programme to a "t" is another conversation. Certainly I have some bias; I do have my history.

So I don't need Nee's reputation or legacy to be preserved; quite the opposite. Yet I find this book to be insulting, frankly. I think it's been disingenuously packaged and sold. People with a pathological need to discredit Nee might take heart at its contents, but I can't see how anyone with a fondness for any semblance of objective "fact" or "truth" can be encouraged by this work.

Anyone has a right to their reminiscences, and anyone has a right to pen a polemic (I've put out a few on this forum). But I think we're looking at a weakly constructed polemic, thinly disguised as a memoir.
06-16-2014 08:57 AM
awareness
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amrkelly View Post
So for those who appear to be happy with the somewhat incredulous idea that Hsu "apparently" had a source, I can say that she did have a source. It is Joshua Yu and no one else. Conversations by persons who have no evidence, no proper and material recollection and no formal statement to make, amounts to gossip. Shame on them all.
Of course it's gossip, the alleged rapes were never reported to the authorities. That may be because the rapes never occurred, or the sisters couldn't bring themselves to report Nee. The latter is common among sexual crimes in Christian circles. For one example among many, many of the pedophile crimes in the RCC took decades to come out. And by the way, just because the only source "evidence" comes from Joshua Yu does not automatically make the claims untrue.

I can't speak for everyone that believes Hsu's book, but my inclination ((if I can call it that) to believe it follows thusly:

Rape is a crime of violence and power. And I/we lived under Nee's power system with his deputy/delegated authority. That reveals Nee obviously had a fetish for power. Sure, that doesn't prove rape either, just something that makes it sound plausible. If our brother Andrew had lived under Nee's movement he might feel different too.

And as far as Nee caving in to the communist authorities (his public admission), to get a lighter sentence, that does not jibe with my impression of Nee back when I was a big fan of him, that, Nee would never do anything to bring shame to the gospel of Christ, even if they pulled his fingernails out and water-boarded him.

And that is enough to make me very disappointed in Nee.
06-16-2014 06:48 AM
amrkelly
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
The book is presented to the reading public as Lily Hsu's unforgettable memories, but inside you get Zhang Qinian's unforgettable memories, through Ruth Lee's unforgettable memories. And how did Zhang's unforgettable memories get amalgamated into Lily Hsu's account? Did Hsu read a book by Ruth Lee, which book is apparently not available to the rest of the public? Or did she talk to Ruth Lee? Did anyone else hear Zhang Qunian's account, or Ruth Lee's story of Zhang Quinian's account?
It is important to establish how the book is written before it will be possible to understand the value of its contents.

The three sisters at the heart of the accounts of rape are Li Yuanru, Miao Yunchun and Zhang Qinian. The account regarding Zhang Qinian is narrated by Hsu as fact, but actually derives from a letter to Joshua Yu in the early1990's. As I have said previously Joshua Yu is linked more than seventeen times to direct claims in this book, of which the majority are accusations of a severe kind. The most likely person to have sent these letters was Zhang Qizhen.

The important thing to note is that Zhang Qizhen was interviewed personally on two separate occasions by Xi Lian in the early 1990's and never made mention of these events to him. His book (Redeemed by Fire) was published in 2010 some three years before Hsu and in it he makes just one single reference to a sexual scandal connected with Nee.

In any event the simple reality, despite what some may appear to need to believe, is that there was and never has been any proper corroborated and sound evidence to support the claim that Nee was a sexual predator. I have more than 20 books in my collection which have been written and researched on this subject and the only one to make these claims is Dr Hsu. The next and nearest report is that of Xi Lian who personally interviewed Zhang Qizhen in China and from whom he received the broad information-that in 1942 Nee's affair with two of his co-workers came to light-and resulted in problems for him at that time. Even in this context Lian Xi is simply reporting what he has been told. He does not elaborate on it and he does not use the word rape to describe a consensual affair. If Joshua Yu has any letters which support another source, such as Ren Zhongxiang for example, then he should produce them and make his source clear. If not then the whole scheme rests on an undisclosed letter from an undisclosed source at an undisclosed date and time.

As far as Miao Yunchun is concerned Hsu relies entirely on her own testimony. She takes her witness from herself in an alleged face to face discussion with Miao Yunchun in 1956 when she was acting as secretary for the TSPM appointed committee who were put in place to run SCA after all the elders and deacons were taken away for torture and to be murdered and abused.

So for those who appear to be happy with the somewhat incredulous idea that Hsu "apparently" had a source, I can say that she did have a source. It is Joshua Yu and no one else. Conversations by persons who have no evidence, no proper and material recollection and no formal statement to make, amounts to gossip. Shame on them all.
06-16-2014 05:55 AM
aron
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

The book is presented to the reading public as Lily Hsu's unforgettable memories, but inside you get Zhang Qinian's unforgettable memories, through Ruth Lee's unforgettable memories. And how did Zhang's unforgettable memories get amalgamated into Lily Hsu's account? Did Hsu read a book by Ruth Lee, which book is apparently not available to the rest of the public? Or did she talk to Ruth Lee? Did anyone else hear Zhang Qunian's account, or Ruth Lee's story of Zhang Quinian's account?
06-15-2014 02:19 PM
aron
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
Because of all that, and her disappointment in Nee, Ruth Lee lost her faith, according Lily's account.

And that's why she's in Dr. Lily Hsu's book.
So when did Ruth Lee tell Lily Hsu this story? Or when did someone else tell Lily Hsu this story? Or when did Ruth Lee, or someone else tell Dana Roberts this story? You say this is all according to "Lily's account", but it's not clear who's account we are actually reading, here.

We are reading Zhang Qinian's account, in this instance -- but through how many intermediaries?
06-15-2014 11:14 AM
awareness
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
Who is Li Yuanru and how did she get into Lily Hsu's book?
She's Ruth Lee, who started gathering around Nee's teachings in 1926. According to Dr. Lily Hsu Witness Lee considered her one of Nee's co-workers. Under Nee’s influence, [she] they started the Lord’s Table in Nanjing. She was chief editor of Collection of Newsletters and the Open Door– Dealing with practical problems in the Local Churches. And chief editor of the Gospel room from early on. In January 29th 1956 she was arrested along with many other workers of Watchman Nee. Ruth Lee was all over Nee's work, and is therefore all over in Dr. Lily Hsu's book, and is recorded in the CWWN.

Quote:
Appendix Four Li Yuanru and Wang Peizhen
Li Yuanru and Wang Peizhen were the two most important coworkers of Watchman Nee. They helped Nee to establish the Local Church by the end of 1927. Through years, they were very much respected by the church leaders and the congregation of the vast area of the Local Churches.
Quote:
Most of the SCA leaders might not know all the facts, however, Li Yuanru, with a personality that abhorred evil as a deadly foe had already exposed the sexual immorality of Nee in 1942. Although the information exposed by Li was limited, most of the leaders trusted Li more than Nee; so it was really not as if “they knew nothing.”

This is why she was arrested :
Quote:
In July 1950, Nee, together with Li Yuanru, Wang Peizhen and Yu Chenghua, submitted a joint letter to inform the leaders of all Local Churches to motivate believers to obtain close to twenty thousand signatures. It was then sent to the People’s Government of Fujian Province to appeal the waive the property at Guling from the Land Reform.
Dr. Lily Hsu writes:
Quote:
The confessions of Li Yuanru and Wang Peizhen were broadcasted repeatedly from the microphones. They admitted with tears that they were counter-revolutionaries.
And:
Quote:
In 1942, when Li Yuanru heard that Nee had raped Zhang Qinian, her closest friend of whom she had lived together for years, she was furious. After the church suspended Nee’s preaching ministry, Li was still deeply despaired. She and Zhang Qinian left SCA and resided at Suzhou, not too far from Shanghai.
Because of all that, and her disappointment in Nee, Ruth Lee lost her faith, according Lily's account.

She has a book: The Complete Works of Ruth Li published in 2004.

But prolly, of our members here, only Andrew Kelly can get a copy of it.

And that's why she's in Dr. Lily Hsu's book.
06-15-2014 10:07 AM
aron
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
It's the rape charges that's hardest to swallow. After reading many of Nee's wonderful books and writings, and realizing the depth of his spirituality, it's hard to picture him raping sisters.

But one story, to be particular, comes across as very believable :
Who is Li Yuanru and how did she get into Lily Hsu's book?
06-15-2014 08:42 AM
awareness
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UntoHim View Post
Andrew,

I don't believe that Dr. Hsu's "accusations" are based solely upon the prosecution of the communist government. She apparently had some kind of inside knowledge of some of the events in question.

To those of us with many years of experience in the Local Church movement, your comment "and stood contrary to the effect of his ministry" does not necessarily amount to a whole lot to us here in America. Why? Just about every current Local Church member will tell you in the most glowing terms about the positive effects of the ministries of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee. In fact they will not admit to any significant fault in teaching or practice of either man.

When it comes to Witness Lee, many of us know better, much better as a matter of fact. So now when some close follower of Watchman Nee comes along and tells us that the venerable Watchman was not quite what we have been told all these years...well I'm sorry but many of us are going to simply err on the side of caution, and believe her testimony. A lot of what she writes in this book rings strong and clear to many of us I'm sure. "Been there, done that" in the current vernacular.

Why did she wait this long? I Don't know the answer to that question. But what I can tell you is that much of her testimony does indeed ring strong and clear, and most of all true. I do wish there were some other older brothers and sisters who could confirm or else deny Dr. Hsu's testimony. I fear that many are either past away or locked within the silence of Mainland China.
It's the rape charges that's hardest to swallow. After reading many of Nee's wonderful books and writings, and realizing the depth of his spirituality, it's hard to picture him raping sisters.

But one story, to be particular, comes across as very believable :

Quote:
In 1942, the brothers at CBC often came to the house of Li Yuanru to complain. She finally became impatient and ordered them to leave. Zhang Qinian, a female coworker, had been living with Li Yuanru since the late 1920’s. At that time Zhang Qinian blurted out a curse with a very vulgar expression: “Chop him a thousand times!” (That was a coarse slang once common in Jiangsu Province.) Zhang’s unexpected demeanor shocked Li since Zhang was a very gentle and courteous lady. Li pursued her and dug into the reason for her unusual resentment. Zhang finally told her that Nee forcefully raped her eight or nine years ago. (Originally Nee took care of the accounts of the “Work” of the Local Church by himself and later he assigned Zhang to help him. Then he took the advantage to rape her.) It must be in 1933-34.

Hsu M.D, Lily M.; Roberts M.A M.T.S, Dana (2013-04-02). My Unforgettable Memories:Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church (Kindle Locations 2882-2885). Xulon Press. Kindle Edition.
06-14-2014 08:51 PM
UntoHim
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amrkelly View Post
There never was any intention to intelligently and conscientiously review the book written by Dr Hsu and Dana Roberts, and the reason has to do with an unwillingness to be objective and to grasp that it is completely unrighteous to accuse any man of crimes which were never proven, and which stood contrary to the effect of his ministry in the lives of millions of men and women. I have gathered a great deal of material in the last three months and so I can see clearly where the substance can be found. It cannot be found with the accusers.
Andrew,

I don't believe that Dr. Hsu's "accusations" are based solely upon the prosecution of the communist government. She apparently had some kind of inside knowledge of some of the events in question.

To those of us with many years of experience in the Local Church movement, your comment "and stood contrary to the effect of his ministry" does not necessarily amount to a whole lot to us here in America. Why? Just about every current Local Church member will tell you in the most glowing terms about the positive effects of the ministries of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee. In fact they will not admit to any significant fault in teaching or practice of either man.

When it comes to Witness Lee, many of us know better, much better as a matter of fact. So now when some close follower of Watchman Nee comes along and tells us that the venerable Watchman was not quite what we have been told all these years...well I'm sorry but many of us are going to simply err on the side of caution, and believe her testimony. A lot of what she writes in this book rings strong and clear to many of us I'm sure. "Been there, done that" in the current vernacular.

Why did she wait this long? I Don't know the answer to that question. But what I can tell you is that much of her testimony does indeed ring strong and clear, and most of all true. I do wish there were some other older brothers and sisters who could confirm or else deny Dr. Hsu's testimony. I fear that many are either past away or locked within the silence of Mainland China.
06-14-2014 08:07 PM
awareness
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Bro amrkelly, gird up yer loins and present some proofs. You have them and we need 'em. Surely you can't let Hsu's and Roberts's book stand as it is. They're slandering Watchman Nee ... without empirical proof ... with just testimonies by some who might have an ax to grind, with the possibility of making up stories out of whole cloth.
06-14-2014 07:45 PM
amrkelly
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UntoHim View Post
Actually Andrew Kelly was not banned, but all his posts had to go through the moderation que. I took this action after receiving NUMEROUS complaints from longtime forum members, and warning him several times. As I recall, he got really personal with some other posters and I just can't have that on the forum.
In any event, I have restored his ability to post in real time. But be advised that any punch below the belt will put him back in the penalty box tout de suite. Also I'm not going to spend a lot of time and energy moderating Andrew, you other members are going to have to do it for me.
There will be no need for anyone to do anything. Whilst Harold has faithfully tried to have my guest status revoked, I gave up on that ambition several months ago. I would also like to say that I did endeavour to post several times as a guest, using my username and password, and those attempts failed to materialise. In short to say that I was not banned is less than the full account. As to the complaints, I reckon them to be of no account. I have read and reread every single one of my posts several times and find myself unable to see more than is actuality apparent in them. In point of reality that amounts to nothing more than offending national pride.

There never was any intention to intelligently and conscientiously review the book written by Dr Hsu and Dana Roberts, and the reason has to do with an unwillingness to be objective and to grasp that it is completely unrighteous to accuse any man of crimes which were never proven, and which stood contrary to the effect of his ministry in the lives of millions of men and women. I have gathered a great deal of material in the last three months and so I can see clearly where the substance can be found. It cannot be found with the accusers.

I have no intentions of continuing in this forum regardless as to the accusations levelled against me, none of which can be demonstrated from my own words. Just because men complain does not mean that those men are either reasonable, intelligent or sound.
06-14-2014 01:06 PM
awareness
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
Got it!
Thank you so much all of you. You all have been helpful by being a great source of information and that has helped me move on after feeling disillusioned by LR. Also I could relate to a lot of your experiences and that has helped me come to terms and after having a crisis with my faith I am recovering back to the Lord!
As a token of your gratitude would you please come back to us and give us some of your thoughts and reactions to the book?

The book's a hot topic ... a hot tamale ... so to speak.

I, for one, and prolly others, would love to hear more from you.

Please, pretty please, with a cherry on top ... ????????

Come back as Quest. You'll be totally anonymous ... if that is needed, and makes you comfortable.
06-12-2014 10:25 PM
Unregistered
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Got it!
Thank you so much all of you. You all have been helpful by being a great source of information and that has helped me move on after feeling disillusioned by LR. Also I could relate to a lot of your experiences and that has helped me come to terms and after having a crisis with my faith I am recovering back to the Lord!
06-12-2014 11:59 AM
awareness
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UntoHim View Post
Actually Andrew Kelly was not banned, but all his posts had to go through the moderation que. I took this action after receiving NUMEROUS complaints from longtime forum members, and warning him several times. As I recall, he got really personal with some other posters and I just can't have that on the forum.
In any event, I have restored his ability to post in real time. But be advised that any punch below the belt will put him back in the penalty box tout de suite. Also I'm not going to spend a lot of time and energy moderating Andrew, you other members are going to have to do it for me.
I'll do my best to keep him on the straight and narrow. But I doubt I'll ever tame him. He's a force of nature, if not a force of the supernatural.

But and so : WELCOME Andrew ....

Actually, Andrew is pretty busy ... so we may not hear from him very much ... sad to say.

Thanks UntoHim, for opening the door to him again.
06-12-2014 10:49 AM
UntoHim
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
I wish that Andrew Kelly could come back. He's got lots o' ink on this matter.
And contrary to popular opinion, and some display out here, he's really a great brother ... who loves Nee, and owes much to him.
He should be welcomed ...
UntoHim ... public contact : amrkelly@shanghaichristianassembly.cn
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elden1971 View Post
I agree with you Harold ....how about it untohim?
Actually Andrew Kelly was not banned, but all his posts had to go through the moderation que. I took this action after receiving NUMEROUS complaints from longtime forum members, and warning him several times. As I recall, he got really personal with some other posters and I just can't have that on the forum.
In any event, I have restored his ability to post in real time. But be advised that any punch below the belt will put him back in the penalty box tout de suite. Also I'm not going to spend a lot of time and energy moderating Andrew, you other members are going to have to do it for me.
06-12-2014 10:19 AM
UntoHim
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
Anyways I don't have access to that email ID under which I sent you the request. I seem to have forgotten the password and there's no way I can access that account once again. :P

Please try googling "recover my Gmail password" and I think you will find that you can get back into your account
.
06-12-2014 07:55 AM
Elden1971
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
I wish that Andrew Kelly could come back. He's got lots o' ink on this matter.

And contrary to popular opinion, and some display out here, he's really a great brother ... who loves Nee, and owes much to him.

He should be welcomed ...

UntoHim ... public contact : amrkelly@shanghaichristianassembly.cn
I agree with you Harold ....how about it untohim?
06-12-2014 07:04 AM
Unregistered
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Yeah, I am that member who asked you for the pdf book.
I found the electronic version of the book on Amazon but it's not for sale in the country I live in.

Here's where I got he impression the pdf version is available.
http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...?t=3489&page=3

Anyways I don't have access to that email ID under which I sent you the request. I seem to have forgotten the password and there's no way I can access that account once again. :P
06-11-2014 12:13 PM
awareness
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

I wish that Andrew Kelly could come back. He's got lots o' ink on this matter.

And contrary to popular opinion, and some display out here, he's really a great brother ... who loves Nee, and owes much to him.

He should be welcomed ...

UntoHim ... public contact : amrkelly@shanghaichristianassembly.cn
06-11-2014 11:32 AM
UntoHim
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Hey Forum members,

I received an email from a former LC member who is wanting to get a PDF version of My Unforgettable Memories by Dr. Lily Hsu. This person is a frequent lurker on the forum and was under the impression that one of the members has a PDF copy of the book. I can't remember if that was so and who it was who had the PDF copy.

Whoever may have a PDF copy and is willing to share it with this person you can let me know here or by PM if you want. I assume this person is aware that the electronic version of the book can be bought on line, but it could be that they either can't afford it or they are located in a country that will not allow certain purchases online?
04-07-2014 08:55 AM
Unregistered
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Blessed are the peacemakers.
04-03-2014 11:40 AM
awareness
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Last night I was on a conference call with amrkelly and awareness and we were able to exchange apologies.

Thank the Lord.
Andrew is an incredible resource on Nee. And he's a true brother in the Lord. I think we need to find a way to have him active on this forum. We'll be cheated if we don't.
04-03-2014 11:35 AM
amrkelly
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Last night I was on a conference call with amrkelly and awareness and we were able to exchange apologies.

Thank the Lord.
Praise the Lord Ohio. Thank you for your apology which you made freely and set a good example to me also.
04-03-2014 10:43 AM
Ohio
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amrkelly View Post
I don't recall anyone standing up to me Mr Ohio. No one has stood anywhere. You are all hiding. Perhaps you don't realise it but the term 'serial' when applied to someones perceived behaviour is a term generally describing a mental health issue. I am only writing this, along with taking a screen shot, for my own records because although a few of you have attacked me repeatedly, I am now in the dog house and can't respond in a timely manner. Of course this gives you and Igzy as well as OBW, the opportunity to continue in your attacks, facilitated by a public announcement by the site Admin no less.

Its strange what people feel is acceptable practise when teaching someone a lesson.
Last night I was on a conference call with amrkelly and awareness and we were able to exchange apologies.

Thank the Lord.
03-28-2014 05:39 AM
aron
Re: Book challenges Watchman Nee’s legacy as martyr

Quote:
Originally Posted by Juan View Post
Jesus alone is the sole authority in the church of the Lord, no men pastors or bible teachers like Nee and Lee exist in that church.
But Peter, whom of all disciples, besides John, should have known, wrote that some take the lead to follow the Chief Shepherd and thus become blueprints, or models, for others who desire also to follow. As Paul said, "imitate me as I imitate Christ".

Other than that I fully agree with your statement.
03-27-2014 08:37 PM
Guest5
Re: Book challenges Watchman Nee’s legacy as martyr

Quote:
Originally Posted by Igzy View Post
This is one of those things we'll probably never know the truth about. Speculation is a waste of time.

But I think it's important to learn to view spiritual figures such as Nee as fallible human beings, rather than as close-to-perfect saints and near idols, as the Living Stream Ministry views them.

Powerful religious leaders have long been known to sometimes take advantage of their followers. Did Nee do this? We don't know. But it would not be unheard of.

As one person said, the lesson to be learned is that a system of checks and accountability should be in place for Christian leaders. The LC had none of that. Still doesn't. In their system, the leaders are all-powerful, and the members suffer because of it.
Take a close look at what Jesus is saying in the whole chapter of John 10 and you will see that Jesus alone is the sole authority in the church of the Lord, no men pastors or bible teachers like Nee and Lee exist in that church.
03-27-2014 10:29 AM
aron
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Igzy View Post
just because people have gifts doesn't mean they use them well. I think [Nee} had certain insights. How could he not as prolific a reader as he was!
Even "prolific reading" combined with "excellent memory" don't equal "spiritual." They may, of course. "I labored more than you all, yet not I but Christ within me", wrote the apostle Paul.

But "I labored more than you all" may also indicate ambition, obsession, imbalance, and/or a number of things. Just because it's in a spiritual environment, or context, doesn't make it a spiritual activity.
03-27-2014 09:01 AM
UntoHim
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Friedel,

Thanks for joining the forum. I really look forward to your contributions, you bring a unique insight and that is always appreciated around here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Friedel View Post
What struck me again is that I believed then (as I do now) that it is very unfair to suggest Watchman Nee = Witness Lee.
This point is very well taken (by me, at least), however I don't think it is necessary to go that far to have a fair and informed critique of Watchman Nee. Of course the life and times of one Witness Lee will always be in the mix as far as most of us are concerned, because Lee is the one we have the most experience with. As I think I mentioned recently, this book is probably just a few pieces in a puzzle, albeit some very important pieces, but just pieces non the less.

Quote:
What I propose to do is to start a new thread today or tomorrow and post a bite-sized section every day or two. This will give others the opportunity to add where mine is too brief or even incomplete and/or wrong.
Yes, please do this when you get a chance. Probably have it on the same forum as this thread; "If you really Nee to know", but just start a new thread.
03-27-2014 08:11 AM
Igzy
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OBW View Post
Igzy,

On your serial adulterer to MOTA, I think he lands somewhere on the "<--" between serial adulterer and seriously flawed. (I will admit that the term "rape" has always been a bit tough to swallow even if we accept it as covering abuse of power because the evidence would suggest that it is not like sexual harassment, but more like undue influence leading to a questionable consent.

But when you say he had a teaching gift, I agree and disagree (potentially). I think that he had a natural ability that made him perfect as a teacher. But I keep reading things that suggest that his morals were flawed enough from an early time that I wonder if he ever had a gift of teaching given by the Holy Spirit, or just exercised his natural abilities on religious/spiritual matters. I realize that sometimes having a gift from the Holy Spirit is about the Spirit directing you within abilities that you already have. But the kinds of things he wrote, and the way that he maimed the scripture and puffed himself up, even in early writings, would suggest that his source may have been a self-motivated (even if well-intentioned) desire to help God.

And then I have kept that idea that the main reason he did what he did was to create a Christian sect that was not tied to Western denominations or mission boards. And if that is true, even just partly, then there is a cloud on his teaching from the very beginning.
Yeah, I meant he had the natural gift of a thinker and teacher. He was possibly INTJ or ENTJ, probably INTJ because he was a loner. Lee was probably ENTJ. I tend to think people with a natural gift have a matching spiritual gift. But I guess that isn't necessarily so. But just because people have gifts doesn't mean they use them well. I think he had certain insights. How could he not as prolific a reader as he was! Even a busted clock is right twice a day. But a "Seer of the Divine Revelation in the Present Age?" A bit overstated.
03-27-2014 07:02 AM
aron
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
Dr. Hsu's book strikes me as honest. At least more honest than Witness Lee's account...
I may have made the mistake of opening my opinions to public scrutiny, then spending the remainder of my time either back-pedaling or defending them.

I said that Lily Hsu's book didn't constitute the truth about Watchman Nee, but that didn't mean I called her dishonest. Rather, when she said she saw a picture and was told that it was the property of Nee, and believed it, and left the faith, that told me something about her, not about Nee. And when the SCA elders expelled Nee, post-confession in a Communist trial, that told me something about the SCA, not about Nee.

On a related note, when Hsu heard the woman confess (privately, to her and another) that she and Nee had been having an affair? Was that before Hsu saw the photo, or after? If Hsu had heard a confession, privately and in tears, to her and another person, and later she saw a photo of that same woman, nude, and got disgusted and quit the faith, then obviously that story would make sense, as "evidence" against Nee. But the story as it was written, to me, didn't of itself equate to "truth about Nee".

But that is not the same as saying Hsu was dishonest with the reading public. I hope the two statements are not being confused here. Because people on either side of the debate may wish to mischaracterize what others are saying, to strengthen their own points. I may have been inadvertently guilty of the same thing: not understanding what others say, in order "to make myself perfectly clear." Ha-ha.
03-27-2014 05:39 AM
aron
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Friedel View Post
I have noted several calls on this thread for a history of Watchman Nee, Witness Lee, China, Taiwan, Manila, the Little Flock, the Local Church, the Recovery, all the orchestrated mysteries and shenanigans and all the sad, sad stories in our past..
I think there are several large gaps in the record, the details of which have only been supplied by Mssrs Lee and company. So additional remarks on the history would be welcomed here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Friedel View Post
What I propose to do is to start a new thread today or tomorrow and post a bite-sized section every day or two. This will give others the opportunity to add where mine is too brief or even incomplete and/or wrong.
I am glad that you are willing to admit that your history and remarks are not "the last word".

We are, all of us, struggling to get home to the Father. People who think that they have already arrived are very difficult to have a conversation with. Even Paul said that he had "not yet laid hold"; should not our own accounts also admit this simple idea? (Phil 3:12,13)

The heart of the Local Church error, and deception, may perhaps be found in the simple statement, "I am rich, and have need of nothing". They don't dare to say that directly, but that ethos comes out in almost everything they do and speak. How "poor" everyone else is. How "rich" is the ministry of brother Witness Lee. Etc.

As long as you don't make that kind of error I imagine your thoughts would be well received on this site. God's peace be to you, in your efforts here on behalf of the rest of us, and the testimony of history.
03-27-2014 02:49 AM
Friedel
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Some notes on Watchman Nee, Witness Lee, the Little Flock, the Local Church, the Recovery, Storms, Lies and Deceit, Power Struggles, Lies and Misrepresentations, etc.

I have noted several calls on this thread for a history of Watchman Nee, Witness Lee, China, Taiwan, Manila, the Little Flock, the Local Church, the Recovery, all the orchestrated mysteries and shenanigans and all the sad, sad stories in our past.

While I was still active on the Bereans Forum seven or eight years ago, I posted a whole series on aspects of our history. I checked now and discovered it comprises more than 11,000 words. What struck me again is that I believed then (as I do now) that it is very unfair to suggest Watchman Nee = Witness Lee.

I also would like to state it clearly at the outset that it is not a written chronology; it is rather a collection of thoughts, my own evaluation of incidents and history, and the recollections of others … all producing a very remarkable grand picture. However, not for one moment do I claim it to be complete or 100% factually correct. It is not an academic or commercial piece of writing but expanded personal notes. Please see it in that light.

What I propose to do is to start a new thread today or tomorrow and post a bite-sized section every day or two. This will give others the opportunity to add where mine is too brief or even incomplete and/or wrong.
03-26-2014 05:15 PM
OBW
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Igzy,

On your

Quote:
Originally Posted by Igzy View Post
I don't think anyone can question that he was devoted to God and had a teaching gift.
On your serial adulterer to MOTA, I think he lands somewhere on the "<--" between serial adulterer and seriously flawed. (I will admit that the term "rape" has always been a bit tough to swallow even if we accept it as covering abuse of power because the evidence would suggest that it is not like sexual harassment, but more like undue influence leading to a questionable consent.

But when you say he had a teaching gift, I agree and disagree (potentially). I think that he had a natural ability that made him perfect as a teacher. But I keep reading things that suggest that his morals were flawed enough from an early time that I wonder if he ever had a gift of teaching given by the Holy Spirit, or just exercised his natural abilities on religious/spiritual matters. I realize that sometimes having a gift from the Holy Spirit is about the Spirit directing you within abilities that you already have. But the kinds of things he wrote, and the way that he maimed the scripture and puffed himself up, even in early writings, would suggest that his source may have been a self-motivated (even if well-intentioned) desire to help God.

And then I have kept that idea that the main reason he did what he did was to create a Christian sect that was not tied to Western denominations or mission boards. And if that is true, even just partly, then there is a cloud on his teaching from the very beginning.
03-26-2014 01:20 PM
aron
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry View Post
Bad business deals which prompted Lee requesting Taipei to sell church property to pay family debt. There was a Chinese brother who included the account in his writing. I recall is last name is Chi.
This and compiled by what happened in the Philippines, Lee wasn't welcome in Philippines or Taiwan. Then comes the World Fair in Seattle 1962......
That story, of Lee circa 1952-1962 needs to be told. I know (Formosa)Taiwan experienced explosive church growth after the communist take-over and subsequent exodus from the mainland. And something happened in the Philippines as well. You have "explosive church growth" combined with "Witness Lee had to leave Taiwan"... something doesn't add up. "Bad business deals" sounds like Lee, though.

Secondly, was his re-entry into Taiwan circa 1968 the equivalent of a palace coup? Who there wanted to see him back, and who wasn't happy? Were there pro-Lee and anti-Lee factions? I suspect there is more to that story than we've heard thus far.
03-26-2014 12:39 PM
Terry
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
Maybe we can hear what happened to cause Lee to leave the Far East in the early '60s, and if we can see a pattern in his moves, perhaps we can detect a pattern in his historical accounts as well.
Bad business deals which prompted Lee requesting Taipei to sell church property to pay family debt. There was a Chinese brother who included the account in his writing. I recall is last name is Chi.
This and compiled by what happened in the Philippines, Lee wasn't welcome in Philippines or Taiwan. Then comes the World Fair in Seattle 1962......
03-26-2014 10:56 AM
amrkelly
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Just like to state my position again, since I might appear to be a Nee hater for standing up to Kelly, who by all evidences was just a serial abuser.
I don't recall anyone standing up to me Mr Ohio. No one has stood anywhere. You are all hiding. Perhaps you don't realise it but the term 'serial' when applied to someones perceived behaviour is a term generally describing a mental health issue. I am only writing this, along with taking a screen shot, for my own records because although a few of you have attacked me repeatedly, I am now in the dog house and can't respond in a timely manner. Of course this gives you and Igzy as well as OBW, the opportunity to continue in your attacks, facilitated by a public announcement by the site Admin no less.

Its strange what people feel is acceptable practise when teaching someone a lesson.
03-26-2014 09:58 AM
aron
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
More troubling to me was Nee's initial teaching (upon resumption) to demand that the saints "hand over" everything to the work.
That, and "line up behind the person who is in front of you". Whatever happened to following the Spirit?

I saw the issue of this thinking, once, by the LSM FTTA trainers, when they came through our town, trying to herd us into something they called vital groups. I found their organizational schemes and practices to be bizarre and quite unspiritual. It felt like, "Chairman Mao had a vision, and now the Great Leap Forward has been initiated."

When reading those excerpts from Nee, it seemed that WL was indeed his spiritual heir.
03-26-2014 09:10 AM
Igzy
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Well said, Ohio.

Just a note that I edited my assessment of Nee just a bit in my last post.
03-26-2014 08:54 AM
Ohio
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Igzy View Post
I think your and others perception that there has been a feeding frenzy on Nee is actually because of the reaction to Kelly and his tripe. I wasn't even involved in this discussion for weeks and looked into it and saw Kelly abusing posters and shooting off his mouth. I was just trying to reel him in, not attack Nee.
Just like to state my position again, since I might appear to be a Nee hater for standing up to Kelly, who by all evidences was just a serial abuser.

Living in the LC's for decades, I heard all of Lee's tall tales of W. Nee, many of which upon examination make no sense whatsoever. I must have been an imbecile to believe Lee's story of Nee's excommunication in 1942 by the elders of the Shanghai Christian Assembly, since that presumes these elders were bumbling idiots to act against Nee for "living with another woman," who was really his mother. That story by Lee was part of the mythology he deceived us with, all for his own personal gains.

I was willing to accept Hsu's accounts of Nee only so far as they explained why the SCA disciplined Nee. The subsequent trial by the Communists is far too murky to understand or pass judgment. Both the moral issues and the complaints about Nee's business practices have been duplicated by Lee and sons for decades following China, both in Taiwan and the USA, thus characterizing a troublesome pattern which is hard not to connect. More troubling to me was Nee's initial teaching (upon resumption) to demand that the saints "hand over" everything to the work.
03-26-2014 08:33 AM
Igzy
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post

Not sure what you mean, here. When two people are fighting, does one have to wear a black hat and the other a white one? Can't two parties both have issues? What really happened may be more complex than simply sorting out who is the bad guy.
It just seemed you were giving the benefit of the doubt to Nee, rather that SCA. You kept mentioning that a single witness accusing Nee was improper. My point was the same applies to SCA elders. In fact, more so, since the Bible forbids accusing elders by a single witness, as you said. So my point was, you should be more upset by Lee accusing the SCA elders than by Hsu accusing Nee, if you are going to be consistent with your stated beliefs. Not trying to "git" you, just making a point.


I think your and others perception that there has been a feeding frenzy on Nee is actually because of the reaction to Kelly and his tripe. I wasn't even involved in this discussion for weeks and looked into it and saw Kelly abusing posters and shooting off his mouth. I was just trying to reel him in, not attack Nee.


To me the question is, how should Nee be remembered. You could look at it on this continuum:

serial adulterer, possible rapist <-- seriously suspect <-- flawed, but gifted teacher --> practically perfect --> minister of the age


I put Nee in the middle, leaning left a bit. I don't think anyone can question that he was devoted to God and had a teaching gift. I think the strong argument can be made that he began to think too highly of himself, confused his speculative ideas with truth, and, via his view on authority, forced confusion on many others.

Now we have some evidence that he had other problems. Is it conclusive? No. But it supports what most of us believe, or should believe, that he was a flawed man and certainly no minister of the age, whatever that is, just like the rest of us.

Again, the whole problem arises with setting men on too high pedestals. The MOTA doctrine has been tried in the dock and found guilty. It should be utterly rejected. Enjoy what you can from Nee. I still do. I'm certainly not going to reject a doctrine that he taught just because he taught it. But I will never receive a doctrine from him or anyone else just because they taught it, either, no matter who they are.
03-26-2014 06:56 AM
aron
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Igzy View Post
You seem to be ready to believe SCA caved to the communists by expelling Nee. So why so ready to believe that story and not the one that says Nee was at fault?
I didn't say I was ready to believe either version of events. Just that Hsu says the communists exposed Nee and then he was expelled. The cause-effect chain in the 1956 expulsion looks clear from reading Hsu... unfortunately she doesn't present any other information.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Igzy View Post
Either Nee or SCA was at fault in the expulsions. You have to believe the testimony of either Lee or Hsu. Which single testimony do you believe, and why?
Not sure what you mean, here. When two people are fighting, does one have to wear a black hat and the other a white one? Can't two parties both have issues? What really happened may be more complex than simply sorting out who is the bad guy. WL: "Then Satan stirred up the elders and the saints in the SCA and they became jealous, and vengeful, and expelled Saint Nee from their midst." That kind of simplistic version of history doesn't help anyone, whomever is portrayed as "Satan" and who is portrayed as "saint".


Quote:
Originally Posted by Igzy View Post
The book has two equally sized sections, Hsu's recollections and Hsu's conclusions. ... She's entitled to do both.
True, and readers are entitled to say, "Now I know the shocking truth about the scurrilous Nee", and other readers are entitled to question and challenge Hsu's conclusions. History works that way; it is a discussion. It unfolds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Igzy View Post
Let me ask you, if Hsu was giving a glowing, positive commentary on Nee, as Lee did in his book, would it offend you less? If we can comment on our impression of Nee, why can't she?
See my above... I am not saying Hsu cannot comment on her experiences and her research, just that her comments may not be as close to the actual truth as some of us may wish. Lee tried to make things tidy for us, and present us with ready conclusions. "No need to think here, just be one with the latest speaking out of Anaheim. Etc." Well, we don't have to be "one" with accounts promoted by either Hsu or the Blendeds. I don't think history perforce has to be a simple, dichotomous, either/or situation. It may occasionally be that simple, but it doesn't have to be.
03-26-2014 06:05 AM
aron
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elden1971 View Post
According to Don Hardy many elders and co-workers from China have shared that Lee "begged" to leave.
I remember hearing that elders and responsible ones in Taiwan and Philippines later "begged" Lee to leave? And that his return to Taiwan in '68 with all those strapping young American men was perhaps the equivalent of Napoleon returning from Elba?

Maybe we can hear what happened to cause Lee to leave the Far East in the early '60s, and if we can see a pattern in his moves, perhaps we can detect a pattern in his historical accounts as well.
03-26-2014 05:47 AM
Ohio
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elden1971 View Post
According to Don Hardy many elders and co-workers from China have shared that Lee "begged" to leave. I am encouraging Don to post his testimony.
This would be the last "giant" of the Witness Lee Mythology to come crashing down.
03-26-2014 05:44 AM
Ohio
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OBW View Post
Further, any perceived motive does not make the account false. But he would have us simply stop reading and listening because there was a motive — or at least the thought of one.
Isn't that LSM's way of disputing all accounts unfavorable of them -- assigning some evil motive to the writer?
03-26-2014 05:34 AM
OBW
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
Personally I don't see any reason Hsu's book shouldn't be scrutinized. And that goes for Nee and Lee too ... as you pointed out so well in yer post #1282.
I don't think anyone is disagreeing with this.

But Kelly was not really scrutinizing the book. Or if he was, it was so buried inside of his invective that it was virtually invisible. If he wanted to scrutinize, he should point to specific items and clearly show what is wrong with them. Instead he spent his time trying to dispute the whole book over the word "rape" and the fact that Hsu ultimately cooperated with the Communists to some extent. Neither, alone or together, makes her account false.

And if he made any rational statements, they were so buried inside of his rants about everything else that they were indecipherable.

Further, any perceived motive does not make the account false. But he would have us simply stop reading and listening because there was a motive — or at least the thought of one.
03-25-2014 06:20 PM
Igzy
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
I am not vetting Nee here, but rather an account by Hsu. I don't know if she mentions the 1942 expulsion. Regarding the 1956 expulsion, it seems as if it were based on the Communists' testimony. Were the SCA already biased by the 1942 affair, among other things, and the CEC "Nee exposition" was merely the excuse they needed? I really don't know the details... all I remember from Hsu is that the Commies pronounced verdict and subsequently the SCA elders acted. It was pretty straightforward in Hsu's book. I don't remember any details connecting the 2 expulstions. Maybe she supplied them later and I missed it...

The only "bombshell" I saw in the book was the interview that she and one other person did (I think I have the characters right - it was vaguely set up) of a woman who confessed that she and Nee had some sort of tryst. That alone is enough, assuming her account is valid (and I have no reason to doubt it is).

Why did Hsu need to go on and on with all the other stuff? How much of that was supplied by her 'translator' Roberts? It seemed like she did all the digging. Why? To justify her Communist-led denunciation of Nee? I really don't know.

The memoir, as it stands, is one thing. The tacked-on assault on Nee I really don't know what to think of. It seems both un-christian (judgmental) and a biased, self-serving account of history. I don't think Hsu/Roberts helped themselves here.
Yes, Hsu mentions both expulsions. My point is that either Nee was at fault in those, or SCA was. If you believe SCA was then... why? You have no more testimony to believe they were at fault that you have to believe Nee was at fault. You seem to be ready to believe SCA caved to the communists by expelling Nee. So why so ready to believe that story and not the one that says Nee was at fault?

Either Nee or SCA was at fault in the expulsions. You have to believe the testimony of either Lee or Hsu. Which single testimony do you believe, and why?


The book has two equally sized sections, Hsu's recollections and Hsu's conclusions. She keeps them separated, and generally tells the reader when she is moving onto from reporting to commentary. She's entitled to do both.

Let me ask you, if Hsu was giving a glowing, positive commentary on Nee, as Lee did in his book, would it offend you less? If we can comment on our impression of Nee, why can't she?
03-25-2014 05:43 PM
Elden1971
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
Yes bro aron we don't know for certain. Did Lee run, or was he sent by Nee and the Lord? Which is most likely? I say he ran ... but that's speaking from my prejudice, developed from my experience in the Local Church, and all the hidden actual history I've come to discover since.

As I see it now, ever since the founding of the Local Church Movement there's been all kinds of hidden hanky panky goin on. And I see Nee & Lee being the MOTA as sinister.
According to Don Hardy many elders and co-workers from China have shared that Lee "begged" to leave. I am encouraging Don to post his testimony.
03-25-2014 04:26 PM
aron
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Igzy View Post
Okay, let's talk about history. SCA excommunicated Nee twice, once in 1942 and once in 1956.

Why did they do this? Were they mistaken, or did they have a good reason?

If you believe they had a good reason, isn't that effectively another witness against Nee?

If you believe they did not have a good reason, why do you believe it? Where are the multiple witnesses against the SCA elders?

What other great teacher and church planter was excommunicated twice by a church he planted? (Besides Steve Jobs).
I am not vetting Nee here, but rather an account by Hsu. I don't know if she mentions the 1942 expulsion. Regarding the 1956 expulsion, it seems as if it were based on the Communists' testimony. Were the SCA already biased by the 1942 affair, among other things, and the CEC "Nee exposition" was merely the excuse they needed? I really don't know the details... all I remember from Hsu is that the Commies pronounced verdict and subsequently the SCA elders acted. It was pretty straightforward in Hsu's book. I don't remember any details connecting the 2 expulstions. Maybe she supplied them later and I missed it...

The only "bombshell" I saw in the book was the interview that she and one other person did (I think I have the characters right - it was vaguely set up) of a woman who confessed that she and Nee had some sort of tryst. That alone is enough, assuming her account is valid (and I have no reason to doubt it is).

Why did Hsu need to go on and on with all the other stuff? How much of that was supplied by her 'translator' Roberts? It seemed like she did all the digging. Why? To justify her Communist-led denunciation of Nee? I really don't know.

The memoir, as it stands, is one thing. The tacked-on assault on Nee I really don't know what to think of. It seems both un-christian (judgmental) and a biased, self-serving account of history. I don't think Hsu/Roberts helped themselves here.
03-25-2014 03:20 PM
amrkelly
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Igzy View Post
The fact that you told us here does not excuse you from not disclosing it on the site itself. Here is your disclosure from there:
I can confirm that I have no relationship with any person or organisation whatsoever linked with the Local Churches. I have no personal involvement with or political opinion on the Peoples Republic of China. I am not in the pay of any person whatsoever in any capacity whatsoever. I am independent and I am an individual. I have disclosed and supplied in a legal documented format my personal identity to the government of the Peoples Republic of China in order to conform with the requirements of registering a Chinese National Domain Name. I can confirm that this website is hosted on a commercial business server in a Swiss Data Centre.
Nothing about not being associate with SCA itself. And the "disclosure" is not supplied in Chinese. You covered your rear as much as you felt you needed to. But not enough to be truly honest with the casual browser.

I mean, give us a break. You name the site SCA and use the freakin' domain name shanghaichristianassembly.cn and you try to tell me you weren't trying to make it look like to the casual browser you were associated with SCA? I don't buy it. Change the name, change the domain name and complete the disclosure in Chinese, then you'll be up front.
Just in case you may know someone who needs to know the truth Igzy I have made provision for your advise.

http://shanghaichristianassembly.cn/igzy/

For what its worth Igzy I can't see the casual brewer happening along anytime soon. There's been a couple of Trolls though.
03-25-2014 02:27 PM
Igzy
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amrkelly View Post
Igzy I am bound to have to point out that I did create the website shanghaichristianassembly.cn. I have also stated this fact here in this site on no less than four occasions. I even went to the trouble of posting the WHOIS data to show that it was myself. I also posted the WHOIS data for shanghaichristianassembly.org to show that the registered owner is hidden behind a privacy mask. This is rather in the same way this website is registered behind a privacy mask. I have hidden behind nothing. Not even my words. Thank you.

http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...&postcount=984

Whatever we miss we are ignorant of. It's just that simple.
The fact that you told us here does not excuse you from not disclosing it on the site itself. Here is your disclosure from there:
I can confirm that I have no relationship with any person or organisation whatsoever linked with the Local Churches. I have no personal involvement with or political opinion on the Peoples Republic of China. I am not in the pay of any person whatsoever in any capacity whatsoever. I am independent and I am an individual. I have disclosed and supplied in a legal documented format my personal identity to the government of the Peoples Republic of China in order to conform with the requirements of registering a Chinese National Domain Name. I can confirm that this website is hosted on a commercial business server in a Swiss Data Centre.
Nothing about not being associated with SCA itself. And the "disclosure" is not supplied in Chinese. You covered your rear as much as you felt you needed to. But not enough to be truly honest with the casual browser.

I mean, give us a break. You name the site SCA and use the freakin' domain name shanghaichristianassembly.cn and you try to tell me you weren't trying to make it look like to the casual browser you were associated with SCA? I don't buy it. Change the name, change the domain name and complete the disclosure in Chinese, then you'll be up front.
03-25-2014 01:14 PM
amrkelly
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Igzy View Post
Well, if he created that website, and I think he did, why would he try to make it look like it is produced by SCA?
Igzy I am bound to have to point out that I did create the website shanghaichristianassembly.cn. I have also stated this fact here in this site on no less than four occasions. I even went to the trouble of posting the WHOIS data to show that it was myself. I also posted the WHOIS data for shanghaichristianassembly.org to show that the registered owner is hidden behind a privacy mask. This is rather in the same way this website is registered behind a privacy mask. I have hidden behind nothing. Not even my words. Thank you.

http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...&postcount=984

Whatever we miss we are ignorant of. It's just that simple.
03-25-2014 01:04 PM
Igzy
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Okay, let's talk about history. SCA excommunicated Nee twice, once in 1942 and once in 1956.

Why did they do this? Were they mistaken, or did they have a good reason?

If you believe they had a good reason, isn't that effectively another witness against Nee?

If you believe they did not have a good reason, why do you believe it? Where are the multiple witnesses against the SCA elders?

What other great teacher and church planter was excommunicated twice by a church he planted? (Besides Steve Jobs).
03-25-2014 12:56 PM
awareness
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Bro. Friedel,

Your post was great. Thanks so much.

And:
Welcome!
03-25-2014 12:16 PM
Igzy
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
Actually I see bro Andrew as being fair and objective in this presentation at shanghaichristianassembly.cn.

I see it as coinciding with Hsu's account. It certainly doesn't discredit it. Which is Andrew's stated objective.

Personally I don't see any reason Hsu's book shouldn't be scrutinized. And that goes for Nee and Lee too ... as you pointed out so well in yer post #1282.
Well, if he created that website, and I think he did, why would he try to make it look like it is produced by SCA?
03-25-2014 12:14 PM
Igzy
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
"These claims" have been scrutinized for thousands of years by multiple examiners. I don't think Hsu has quite gotten there yet. But we're working on it...
The claims here have been scrutinized for thousands of minutes by multiple examiners.

Look, I'm not saying I want to jump to any conclusions. In one sense I don't even care about the sex stuff. To me you leave all that out, the picture she paints of Nee is (1) not flattering and (2) fits a lot better with everything else we know.
03-25-2014 12:11 PM
awareness
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
That statement was put out by the communists. Of course they're going to say that he ran. What do you think they are going to say: "Witness Lee went to Taiwan for preaching of the gospel and the building up of the Body of Christ to consummate the New Jerusalem"?
Yes bro aron we don't know for certain. Did Lee run, or was he sent by Nee and the Lord? Which is most likely? I say he ran ... but that's speaking from my prejudice, developed from my experience in the Local Church, and all the hidden actual history I've come to discover since.

As I see it now, ever since the founding of the Local Church Movement there's been all kinds of hidden hanky panky goin on. And I see Nee & Lee being the MOTA as sinister.
03-25-2014 12:10 PM
Igzy
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
I was not talking about "ignoring evidence about the lives of the deceased". I meant, don't just accept one person's witness and think you have the facts now at hand. Alive or dead, the point remains. Elder or not, the point remains.
Yes, but before you claimed that not accepting only one witness was a "spiritual reality." I'm saying although it might be a general rule of thumb one can follow, it is not a requirement. Paul was talking about current elders, not people in general, else he would have said "brother," not elder.
03-25-2014 12:10 PM
aron
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Igzy View Post
Here's another thought. The biblical writers indict all kinds of people... Where are the multiple witnesses for these claims?
"These claims" have been scrutinized and cross-examined for thousands of years by multiple examiners. I don't think Hsu has quite gotten there yet. But we're working on it...
03-25-2014 12:05 PM
Igzy
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Here's another thought. The biblical writers indict all kinds of people. Cain, Noah, Samson, Solomon, David, Alexander the coppersmith, Demetrius. Where are the multiple witnesses for these claims?
03-25-2014 12:02 PM
awareness
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Igzy View Post
This is plainly a website created by Andrew Kelly, yet pretending to be something from Shanghai Christian Assembly. He even secured a China domain name for it. That's pretty disingenuous, to say the least.

If you really read what Hsu says in the statement and interview, it is interestingly very close to what someone who leaves the Local Church in America might say, but in the context of the political and cultural atmosphere of China at the time. She says she still loves God and the Bible, but has reoriented her faith away from Nee's influence which she feels were needlessly in conflict with larger society. She is not saying she now loves godless communism. If she is a little gullible about communism, that's understandable. She doesn't have the benefit of history to guide her as we do.
Actually I see bro Andrew as being fair and objective in this presentation at shanghaichristianassembly.cn.

I see it as coinciding with Hsu's account. It certainly doesn't discredit it. Which is Andrew's stated objective.

Personally I don't see any reason Hsu's book shouldn't be scrutinized. And that goes for Nee and Lee too ... as you pointed out so well in yer post #1282.
03-25-2014 12:01 PM
aron
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Igzy View Post
John is quoting what Jesus said to him...
Well I am quoting what Jesus said to me. And I'm only being partly facetious - "Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares." If someone's comment makes you uncomfortable, that doesn't necessarily mean they're wrong. Maybe God is trying to get you to look.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Igzy View Post
Nee isn't an elder. He's a historical figure. In fact, I'm not sure he was ever an elder. Paul was talking about protecting the elders in realtime, not about ignoring evidence about the lives of the deceased.
I was not talking about "ignoring evidence about the lives of the deceased". I meant, don't just accept a single witness and think you have the facts now at hand. Alive or dead, the point remains. Elder or not, the point remains.
03-25-2014 11:44 AM
Igzy
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
I rather liked amrkelly. Of course he was acerbic but so was the apostle John in writing to the seven churches in Asia. Don't you think some of the elders in Ephesus were offended? "What! Repent! Us?!?" I imagine those seven epistles were met with incredulity by some of the recipients. Sometimes God speaks a hard word (I am not equating Kelly's word with God. I am just saying that if you are offended it doesn't automatically mean the other party is wrong).
The statements to the churches weren't John's words. They were Jesus's. John is quoting what Jesus said to him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
And lastly, "Do not receive testimony against an elder by one witness only, but by at least two or three." These are not rules, but aspects of spiritual reality. That was why I was profoundly troubled by people reading one testimony and saying, "Now we know the sordid truth about Watchman Nee!"

There is some damning stuff in there, I admit. But truth and reality continues. Don't let anyone lure you away. No tale should be compelling enough to make us leave our true spiritual position.
Nee isn't an elder. He's a historical figure. In fact, I'm not sure he was ever an elder. Paul was talking about protecting the elders in realtime, not about ignoring evidence about the lives of the deceased.
03-25-2014 11:25 AM
aron
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amrkelly View Post
Reality and Truth!

No doubt you can say what you believe or else determine what reality and truth is, on your own forum. Unless we understand what Truth is in the first instance the use of such words is just rhetoric.

Your own statement here makes it plain what this forum is about. Your members have made it similarly plain in those precise terms many times.
I rather liked amrkelly. Of course he was acerbic but so was the apostle John in writing to the seven churches in Asia. Don't you think some of the elders in Ephesus were offended? "What! Repent! Us?!?" I imagine those seven epistles were met with incredulity by some of the recipients. Sometimes God speaks a hard word (I am not equating Kelly's word with God. I am just saying that if you are offended it doesn't automatically mean the other party is wrong).

Anyway, on to the subject at hand. "Truth and reality". It struck me that when Jesus showed up mostly the demons didn't try to debate. They cried out with fear, "Ah! What is this to us, Jesus, Nazarene? Have you come to destroy us before our time?" (Mark 1:24; Luke 4:34)

These disobedient spirits knew reality when it stared them in the face. They didn't like it, but there it plainly was. Likewise, I don't think that truth is essentially an unassailable set of debating points (though notice Jesus was pretty good at that - e.g. Luke 20:40 "and no one dared ask Him any more questions") but rather is something that we continually and habitually exhibit, in all circumstances.

"Bearing one another in love". Habitually done, that's reality. That is following Jesus. "Consider one another more highly than yourselves." Ditto. "Forgive us our trespasses, even as we forgive others who trespass against us." That, when abided within, is reality, and truth. "Keep yourselves from every appearance of evil." And, "Receive one another, but not for the purposes of passing judgment." And lastly, "Do not receive testimony against an elder by one witness only, but by at least two or three." These are not rules, but aspects of spiritual reality. That was why I was profoundly troubled by people reading one testimony and saying, "Now we know the sordid truth about Watchman Nee!"

There is some damning stuff in there, I admit. But truth and reality continues. Don't let anyone lure you away. No tale should be compelling enough to make us leave our true spiritual position.
03-25-2014 11:17 AM
Friedel
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

I used to be fairly active on the old Bereans forum until I eventually found the exchanges often becoming very acrimonious and unpleasant. I then departed. I have never visited this site before about a week ago.

Somehow I just landed here and found the thread about Dr Lily Hsu’s book (My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church). The supposed contents made me sick to my stomach. Dr Hsu’s book could well be 100% true and it could also be prejudicial, tainted or not true at all or only true in parts. I have not read it yet since I only on Sunday graciously received a copy from another former LC member. Whether I am going to read it, I still do not know.

Let me state at the outset: what I write here is my perspective, which could be flawed due to my own perceptions or my memory. I am not attempting to try and convince anybody to agree with me

Although this is the first time I have heard of this, I now know that Watchman Nee was charged with rape and found guilty at his trial in 1956. I also now know that he had pleaded guilty. To have denied the charges or to have pleaded not guilty would have resulted in a much harsher sentence. However, as far as I am concerned, this is not the issue here.

When I was still in high school I discovered the writings of Watchman Nee and in the past I have always held him in high regard. Nevertheless, his association to and with Witness Lee automatically meant that I got rid of almost all his writings along with the volumes and volumes of Witness Lee when I left The Local Church 14 years ago after 24 years. I suppose I had considered him “guilty by association” with Witness Lee.My strongest conviction at this point is that it is necessary to be FAIR to all parties concerned: FAIR to Watchman Nee, FAIR to Dr Lily Hsu and FAIR to those who have genuine and legitimate doubts about Watchman Nee’s history.

Was Watchman Nee a philanderer or was he framed? Was his memory among those former members of The Local Church contaminated by the shenanigans, maneuvering, misrepresentations and lies by Witness Lee and his henchmen, leading to his entire spiritual legacy being questioned, even rejected? Reasonable questions that demand honest answers. Therefore, please hear me out: this is not a defense of Watchman Nee; it is an honest and as far as I am concerned an objective assessment of some of his history.

I would first like to relate an incident dating back to December 1989 when I visited Anaheim for about six weeks. This was the time of the famous last orchestrated “storm” that cut off at the knees people like John Ingalls and Bill Mallon and several others who just walked away for refusing to pray to and for the fourth member of the Trinity (aka Witness Lee). Long before that people like Don Hardy and Terry Risenhoover were also sacrificed for and on behalf of The Oracle.

I shared a house with Ray Macnee from New Zealand. Other brothers came and went for short spells but we were the only permanent residents during that time. It was the house directly next to the home of Witness Lee in West Ball Road, Anaheim.

During this time we arranged to one morning visit an elderly sister, Beth Rademacher, whom former members of the LC should remember well. Witness Lee always treated her with respect in the meetings. She was quite old and frail by then, although several years younger than Witness Lee himself. I believe she had passed away some years ago when well into her 80s or even 90s. She had made an indelible impression on me because of her honesty, her humility and the fact that she made no attempt to pretend to be spiritual. What you saw is what you got.

Beth Rademacher stayed with another couple in Huntington Beach and Ray and I had arranged to go and interview her on tape to hear her story since she had known Watchman Nee personally in China. (Maybe this recording was preserved at the Living Stream archives because it was Bennie Danker who had said: “It is our history.” Anyway, it was their expressed intention to keep it safe.)

Beth Rademacher did not know what to do when she finished high school in the mid-1930s. Some had then suggested she should join a missionary organization and go abroad to work as a missionary volunteer. That is how she ended up with The Open Door (I believe that was the name) that worked among unwed mothers in China. That must have been in the latter part of the 1930s and she would have been around 20 or thereabouts.The most amazing fact is that she was not saved but apparently that did not prove to be a deterrent or it possibly never even came up during the interview process. She was an American missionary in China trying to save the unsaved!

Soon after arriving she was invited to attend a weekly Bible meeting conducted by a young Chinese preacher. Everybody looked forward to this meeting. That is how she met Watchman Nee who had immediately made a deep impression on her. She started to live for the weekly meetings, the highlight of her existence. She soon met the Lord through the ministry of Watchman Nee and became a committed follower of the Lord Jesus Christ for the remainder of her life. At this point of our visit this dear elderly sister started to weep softly.

She then told us of an example used by Watchman Nee one day to illustrate the working and the importance of the Holy Spirit. According to her that was the biggest life-changing moment of her whole existence. Nee said something like this: “What does it help if you have a big, brand-new truck but there is no air in the wheels?” She was really crying now and said that from that day onwards her life had never been the same.

Foreigners were interned by Japan soon after that and they had to stay in camps. They continued to have visits from Watchman Nee. A while later there was an announcement that there would soon be an exchange of Japanese prisoners-of-war for prisoners in the internment camps. Those who desired to be considered for the exchange had to register with the authorities. She was one of the younger ones there and almost immediately went to register. However, when the older and senior female missionaries heard of her action, she was shunned (probably because she was not willing to suffer for the Lord?). It bothered her greatly and at the first opportunity afterward when she saw Watchman Nee she confided in him of her terrible mistake. He listened politely and then said, “Sometimes our mistakes are right.”

Some time later there was another announcement that there would be an exchange of prisoners. There was however an important difference: only internees who had registered for the first abortive exchange would be considered this time. So Beth Rademacher was allowed to return home while those who had not registered had to remain behind. Many died in those Japanese internment camps including the Scottish missionary and former Olympic athlete, Eric Liddell.

Beth travelled to her native New York by ship and arrived home a totally different person than the one that had left for China as an unsaved, naïve young woman: she returned home as a born-again believer and more mature as a person.Some years later she married Fred Rademacher, who was about twenty years her senior. They stayed in New York and raised their children there (three, I believe). After her husband’s death she remained in New York for a few more years until she eventually moved to southern California. While in New York she and her husband were friendly with Gene Gruhler’s folks and I believe also with Stephen Kaung. She spent her remaining years meeting with the Local Church and attended meetings, conferences and trainings. I met her every time I visited Anaheim and she was always the same loving and friendly person. To Beth Rademacher Watchman Nee was a true man of God.

I have been a Christian (a disciple of the Lord Jesus Christ) for longer than 50 years and Beth Rademacher is one believer that I had met who made a great impression on me.

That is all I want to share of her in this brief narrative.
Somewhere on this thread I read that Watchman Nee’s indiscretions took place from around 1922 (when he was 20) to about 1929 (when he was 27). (Please indulge me if my dates are not entirely correct since I have not yet read Dr Hsu’s book.)

Watchman Nee was very ill during the biggest part of the 1920s; in fact, a German physician had told him not to return to him because he had incurable tuberculosis. It was during this time he wrote “The Spiritual Man” (most of it while in great pain) and he finished the book at age 26 (1928). During this time his coworkers expected him to die at any time because he was very weak and emaciated. They prayed downstairs while he was lying in bed upstairs when the Lord unexpectedly healed him, according to his later testimony. He slowly walked down the stairs to the few friends praying downstairs. They were shocked to silence but in a short time he recovered fully. If I remember correctly he did suffer from angina pectoris for the remainder of his life which was attributed to the effects of the severity of the tuberculosis.According to my calculations he was quite unwell for most of the 1920s yet apparently according to Dr Hsu’s book he was then already active in his philandering habits. During this time Margaret Barber was also still around.

During the 1930s he visited the UK to attend the Keswick Convention, several other countries and later spent almost a year with T. Austin-Sparks in London. This probably was around the time Beth Rademacher had arrived in China. He and Austin-Sparks got along really well; in fact, in a letter a while after his return to China he bemoaned the fact that he had no peer amongst the brothers in China, nobody he could fellowship with as equals (like he had with Austin-Sparks). He found it a tremendous burden that all the Chinese brothers looked up to him.

The reason for his excommunication in the 1940s remains a mystery yet there is no clear evidence what had happened. Witness Lee again took opportunity to cloud the issue and the history and later published the volumes, “Messages Given during the Resumption of Watchman Nee’s Ministry” which reminds strongly of his biography of Watchman Nee, “A Seer of the Divine Revelation”. The biography was a very biased, terrible book written from his (Lee’s) perspective. The only messages included in the volumes on the messages were given by either Nee or Lee (there could have been a few others but I could not check since I do not have those volumes anymore).

In describing his arrest in 1952 and his trial and sentence in 1956 Witness Lee spends only one paragraph in his biography of Nee: “He was judged, falsely condemned, and sentenced to fifteen years imprisonment in 1956.” He died on a labor farm on 1 June 1972 leaving a handwritten note under his pillow. The officer of the labor farm briefly showed this note to a nephew of Nee. It read:
“Christ is the Son of God who died for the redemption of sinners and resurrected after three days. This is the greatest truth in the universe. I die because of my belief in Christ. Watchman Nee.”
Does this sound like the deathbed declaration of a philandering deluded disciple of the Lord Jesus? Can anyone reading this statement proclaim it with conviction, as the last words on a deathbed? Please stand up and be counted.

I have kept one little book by Watchman Nee, “Love Not the World”, which I still consider one of the very best on the subject. Would I have been a keen student of Watchman Nee hadn’t Witness Lee messed up his image? It is most unlikely since I believe he was too legalistic.But he was a man who knew his spirit; he knew the cross and he knew his coworkers very well. Once he called a conference and specifically invited Witness Lee to be there. Witness Lee did not show up and then Nee told one of his real close coworkers, Simon Meek: “Brother Witness Lee knows about the cross but he is unwilling to learn the lessons of the cross.” Many of us can testify to that.

Perhaps we should reconsider Watchman Nee’s character, person and actions without Witness Lee in the picture.

Perhaps we should also consider how effective communism has been over about 100 years to besmirch the names of their enemies, never afraid to lie and slander.

Maybe Dr Lily Hsu’s book can assist those who truly seek the facts.
03-25-2014 11:11 AM
Igzy
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
This was linked by Andrew Kelly in email. I noticed it supports my claim that Witness Lee ran from the communists.

It says : "Li Changshou (Witness Lee) (who has fled to Taiwan),"
http://shanghaichristianassembly.cn/i-accuse/
This is plainly a website created by Andrew Kelly, yet pretending to be something from Shanghai Christian Assembly. He even secured a China domain name for it. That's pretty disingenuous, to say the least.

If you really read what Hsu says in the statement and interview, it is interestingly very close to what someone who leaves the Local Church in America might say, but in the context of the political and cultural atmosphere of China at the time. She says she still loves God and the Bible, but has reoriented her faith away from Nee's influence which she feels were needlessly in conflict with larger society. She is not saying she now loves godless communism. If she is a little gullible about communism, that's understandable. She doesn't have the benefit of history to guide her as we do.
03-25-2014 11:09 AM
aron
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
This was linked by Andrew Kelly in email. I noticed it supports my claim that Witness Lee ran from the communists.

It says : "Li Changshou (Witness Lee) (who has fled to Taiwan),"
http://shanghaichristianassembly.cn/i-accuse/
That statement was put out by the communists. Of course they're going to say that he ran. What do you think they are going to say: "Witness Lee went to Taiwan for preaching of the gospel and the building up of the Body of Christ to consummate the New Jerusalem"?
03-25-2014 10:39 AM
awareness
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

This was linked by Andrew Kelly in email. I noticed it supports my claim that Witness Lee ran from the communists.

It says : "Li Changshou (Witness Lee) (who has fled to Taiwan),"
http://shanghaichristianassembly.cn/i-accuse/
03-25-2014 10:27 AM
Ohio
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Igzy View Post
To me, the higher a person lifts himself up, or the higher his followers lift him up, the more eligible for scrutiny he becomes. This is right and proper. The Church must have a way to protect itself from the claims of powerful leaders with fanatical followings claiming to be the one true way.

The fact is, Watchman Nee and Witness Lee led by intimidation. They consciously and in a premeditated fashion sought to cause people to fear the judgement of God for not following them.

Now, anyone who does such a thing either is what he says he is, or should be brought down at almost any cost, because the damage he does if he is wrong goes so far beyond the importance of any good he might have done or the importance of respecting his personal dignity.

Let me repeat that. Anyone who does such a thing either is what he says he is, or should be brought down at almost any cost.
I heard Lee's teaching for years on Ephesus in Revelation 2.1-7.. He would always speak of "losing your first love, removing your lampstand, the works of the Nicolaitans, and eating of the tree of life.

What he conveniently left out was their labor to "try those who call themselves apostles are are not." Lee constantly "proved" to us that he alone was today's oracle of God, pointing out the deficiencies in all other ministers. But Lee himself was not above reproach.

A careful study of LC history surrounding Lee in both China, Taiwan and the USA shows that he was constantly enduring "storms," or so he told us. Actually none of these "storms" were ever caused by "ambitious and rebellious brothers conspiring to overthrow his ministry."

The truth is that brothers surrounding Lee were simply performing their scriptural duties to test, to try, and to prove whether Lee was an apostle. Whenever Lee failed the test, instead of repenting, he attacked these brothers and undermined their credibility. These brothers were then expelled by Lee and his loyal minions, and the "cycle of storms" would later repeat itself.
03-25-2014 09:33 AM
Igzy
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

To me, the higher a person lifts himself up, or the higher his followers lift him up, the more eligible for scrutiny he becomes. This is right and proper. The Church must have a way to protect itself from the claims of powerful leaders with fanatical followings claiming to be the one true way.

The fact is, Watchman Nee and Witness Lee led by intimidation. They consciously and in a premeditated fashion sought to cause people to fear the judgement of God for not following them.

Now, anyone who does such a thing either is what he says he is, or should be brought down at almost any cost, because the damage he does if he is wrong goes so far beyond the importance of any good he might have done or the importance of respecting his personal dignity.

Let me repeat that. Anyone who does such a thing either is what he says he is, or should be brought down at almost any cost.

So we end up in a heady game of chicken, where the authoritative claims of a leader are either succumbed to by the intimidated ones seeking to avoid God's judgment, or seen as dangerous by those who are not intimidated and who realize those claims cannot be allowed to stand.

In such a situation it can be seen that the common, polite consideration that we normally afford a person and his reputation must become a casualty to higher priorities. Benefit of the doubt cannot be given to such people. They must pass the test with flying colors, or be disqualified, and they must submit to the most scathing of probes. Squeamishness over personal considerations, privacy, benefit of the doubt, etc, cannot be a factor.

The claimant of Deputy Authority status should have been smart enough to realize that, and even welcomed it.
03-25-2014 08:07 AM
Igzy
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry View Post
In other words when one "critique" (reproving, rebuking exhorting), one is "Contending for the faith". However when the "critique" is reciprocated, that is no longer "Contending for the faith" but, "attacking, accusing the brethren, and being rebellious".
Slightly a double standard wouldn't you think?
It's the calling card of fanaticism.
03-25-2014 07:23 AM
Terry
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
Actually, not hypocritical; I learned a neat maneuver from Nee and the Blendeds. When I 'critique' others I am just rebuking, reproving, and exhorting a la 2 Timothy 4:2. But when other people do it they are accusing the brethren, slandering, and attacking.
In other words when one "critique" (reproving, rebuking exhorting), one is "Contending for the faith". However when the "critique" is reciprocated, that is no longer "Contending for the faith" but, "attacking, accusing the brethren, and being rebellious".
Slightly a double standard wouldn't you think?
03-25-2014 06:04 AM
aron
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
So how can I say Hsu/Roberts were wrong in judging Nee.. I learned a neat maneuver from Nee and the Blendeds. When I 'critique' others I am just rebuking, reproving, and exhorting a la 2 Timothy 4:2. But when other people do it they are accusing the brethren, slandering, and attacking..
Correction: I meant that I learned a neat maneuver from Lee and the Blendeds, not Nee.
03-24-2014 01:46 PM
amrkelly
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UntoHim View Post

Yeap, we sure are! Tried to reason with you, humor you, appeal to your heart and finally encourage you to play nice with others.....all apparently a waste of my time....man I hate it when people waste my time!

amrkelly has now been placed in the position of a "Guest". All his posts will be placed in a moderation que and I'll have to review them and approve of them before they will appear on the forum. This will be done when I have the time.

Andrew if you want to have a parting shot I will be glad to post that....providing it is not too long and does not include any of your rude, demeaning, condescending or patronizing garbage. So just make it short and sweet (or at least as sweet as an English gentleman can manage).

UntoHim,
ADMIN
No parting shot Admin. Just an appeal for you to look further afield than the offence of men.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxX2_...ature=youtu.be


“I cannot deny that I have seen this light most thoroughly. Since 1950 I have released numerous messages on this matter and have taught people about this. But when the Lord put me in quietness, I examined myself according to this light and found out that I have not really entered into it that much. What I have seen is very thorough, and what I have preached may also be considered quite complete, but it is really questionable how much of the reality of Christ as life I have in me. In this matter we all must enter in practically.”

High Peak of the Vision and the Reality of the Body of Christ,
Witness Lee

Grafted Branch
03-24-2014 01:22 PM
awareness
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

After watching the videos on sermonindex.net I can fully understand why Watchman Nee couldn't resist those "fair young [Chinese] daughters of men."

I too was enamored with them. There were plenty of them in the local church.

But unlike Nee I didn't sample them like they were selections from the Buffet Table. I married one. And stayed true. Until the local church arraigned marriage fell apart.
03-24-2014 01:06 PM
aron
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
I re-read the book yesterday, and now feel less harshly inclined toward it, and admit I over-reacted... But I still think it fails ...two tests: the test of being Christians and letting God judge, and the test of being historians and letting the reader decide.
So how can I say Hsu/Roberts were wrong in judging Nee, while I do the same to their book? Hypocritical, no? Actually, not hypocritical; I learned a neat maneuver from Nee and the Blendeds. When I 'critique' others I am just rebuking, reproving, and exhorting a la 2 Timothy 4:2. But when other people do it they are accusing the brethren, slandering, and attacking. Pretty simple, actually. (Little bit of humor there).

Usually I am more circumspect about things, but in this case I felt like the vast majority of responses were on the level of "now we know the shocking truth about Watchman Nee", and I wanted to provide some perspective. No doubt I probably leaned too far the other way. When I read the book a second time I realized that there was an image in my mind of the book that didn't hold up to closer inspection. So I tried to qualify my position somewhat.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
I The reader isn’t given a memoir. The memoir is bait to get us “the truth about Watchman Nee”, and because of that I still say that it’s a flop; ultimately it only distracts us from Jesus Christ our Lord. If we think Lily Hsu is giving us the truth, then we didn’t learn anything from our time with Lee, and continue to lap without question from whatever source is right in front of us.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Igzy View Post
I think what you really mean is that if we accept Lily Hsu's statements unquestioningly and unthinkingly, then we didn't learn anything from our time with Lee.

Otherwise you seem to be saying, if we don't conclude Hsu is lying, we didn't learn anything. ...Obviously, no one here has "lapped without question." We all have questions. I just tend to believe her general account of history. I don't see a motive for her lying..
Igzy says, "We all have questions." Well, I didn't see much questioning, and I saw a lot of "My God, now we know the truth about Watchman Nee!" So I wanted to challenge that. I am not saying Hsu was wrong, or even inconsistent. I was just saying it was possible that some of her conclusions were not ironclad, and could be questioned. And I tried to do that.

(For the record, I did tremendously enjoy one scene, the second time through the book, in which she was a young believer, before the whole "Nee affair" blew up. The Lord spoke to me there in her story. So actually it wasn't a complete waste of my time, as I earlier stated.)

Trying to paraphrase what Orson Welles said about Paul Masson wine, "We will judge no wine before its time." (and my paraphrase may have failed miserably, I know.) Certainly there are some provocative things in Hsu's account. But it doesn't hurt to have some questions, some reticence to accept all of her conclusions. And yes, I was probably too shrill in my own questions, and conclusions. But that's the downside of freedom of speech, I guess.
03-24-2014 11:40 AM
UntoHim
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amrkelly View Post
Now that I am fully informed as to your own position we are done are we not?

Yeap, we sure are! Tried to reason with you, humor you, appeal to your heart and finally encourage you to play nice with others.....all apparently a waste of my time....man I hate it when people waste my time!

amrkelly has now been placed in the position of a "Guest". All his posts will be placed in a moderation que and I'll have to review them and approve of them before they will appear on the forum. This will be done when I have the time.

Andrew if you want to have a parting shot I will be glad to post that....providing it is not too long and does not include any of your rude, demeaning, condescending or patronizing garbage. So just make it short and sweet (or at least as sweet as an English gentleman can manage).

UntoHim,
ADMIN
03-24-2014 11:23 AM
Igzy
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amrkelly View Post
The only relevance one can assert about Nee has to do with his ministry. They are easily set against the Scriptures and stand or fall accordingly. As for the man himself, you have clearly seen it acceptable to believe that which is removing even the vestige of a reason for seeking to know if what he taught and believed it true
Well, in the first place, we have set many of Nee's ideas against the scriptures and many have failed to hold up. You weren't in on those discussions.

In the second place, if someone in his conscience feels that a minister's life disqualifies him as a teacher with authority then that's his business. It's none of yours to berate him for that decision. You need to respect people's consciences.

God has plenty of teachers. Nee is not indispensable. The idea that God cannot do without the ministry of one man is decidedly Local-Churchy and also false. If Nee's life and fruit left him suspect, there are plenty of other fish in the sea. Do you really think there is anything Nee taught which the church cannot do without and cannot be gathered elsewhere?

Nee's megalomania is enough for me. I'm not going to follow any teacher who claims to be the one people need to "hand over" to. I've seen the damage that doctrine of demons does. I'll get my goods at another store, thank you very much.
03-24-2014 10:36 AM
amrkelly
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UntoHim View Post
Andrew,
I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what this forum is all about. (probably my fault more then anything else). This forum is not really a debate venue as much as it is a clearinghouse of sorts...a place where the main items being bartered are the TRUTH and REALITY. You don't seem to understand that these are EXTREMELY VALUABLE commodities to us former Local Church members. When we were cloistered behind the LC meeting hall doors for all those years, unbeknownst to us, we were deprived of TRUTH and REALITY, which are two of the major pillars that keep us fragile humans mentally and spiritually healthy.

As you may have noticed (or should have noticed) we former LC members are real touchy about these matters. We lock horns, we battle, we fight, sometimes we even lash out at our friends - all for the sake of getting to the truth - to the reality of all the good, bad and ugly we have experienced with this movement known as The Local Church. This matter of the life and times and ministry of Watchman Nee is naturally a major cog in our quest for the truth and reality. Keep in mind, for many, if not most, of us the respect and admiration of Watchman Nee is all we have left as far as holding that the LC movement was not all bad. Now it seems that this last bastion of hope is being pulled right from underneath us, and as with all idols, it is not going to fall easily.

But as far as I'm concerned, and as far as this forum is concerned, everything must be sacrificed at the alter of truth and reality. Nothing, absolutely nothing - no person, no sacred ground, no pet teaching or practice, will be preserved at the cost of the truth and reality that is revealed to us in God's word, and now confirmed by the Spirit of Truth.

So this book, this testimony of Dr. Hsu is merely just another piece to the puzzle. If her testimony is false, God will see fit to expose that in due time, and he surely does not need somebody who is several generations and half a world away from the events in question to do the exposing for him. My gut feeling tells me that much of her testimony is true. Why? Because it explains A LOT about how and why things have developed and how things have ended up in The Local Church. Sins are usually covered up and swept under the rug. Those who try to hold a candle up to expose the darkness are always vilified, shunned, marginalized and eventually separated. I used to think that this dynamic started with Witness Lee. Now I suspect that Lee got more than just "a vision" from Watchman Nee - I think he learned this method of covering sin and attacking the messenger from Nee, and then eventually he expanded and perfected it.
Reality and Truth!

No doubt you can say what you believe or else determine what reality and truth is, on your own forum. Unless we understand what Truth is in the first instance the use of such words is just rhetoric.


Your own statement here makes it plain what this forum is about. Your members have made it similarly plain in those precise terms many times.

You all speak as if you knew Nee personally. You consistently fail to differentiate between reality and imagination. The only relevance one can assert about Nee has to do with his ministry. If they are removed then you do not even have that. His teaching is essentially the only material reality you have. They are easily set against the Scriptures and stand or fall accordingly. As for the man himself, you have clearly seen it acceptable to believe that which is removing even the vestige of a reason for seeking to know if what he taught and believed it true. That is a fools errand. It is pulling the cart to market and letting the horse push.

God is already exposing the real situation in China, and has been doing for at least ten years. There is one singular thing which will be exposed, and it is the same one we face in the West. It is the difference between the true church and the apostate church. See the video in both parts it is self explanatory. When I go to China this summer I have no doubt that I will see the distinction clearly. To the apostate, it is the trick of an Irishman into an Englishman. To the true Church is will be as a brother. No need to confuse the two really as some do. When men and women give witness of the apostate church and call that truth they have fallen into a grave error in their own thinking.

http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/wa...05&seg=1&mod=0

Do you mean to tell me that I don't understand that what you call truth and reality are not important commodities? They are your idols of offence because they are the measure of what is true and real in your own lives. It has nothing to do with the reality of another time. It is altogether to do with yourselves. That, whether you can see it or not is called subjectivism if the thing being judged is of another time and place.

It started with the Pharisees who in the mind of Satan demanded the crucifixion of the Son of Man. It has continued in every place, in every age right up till this present hour. This was one of the first things I said here. I was rebuked for it.[/COLOR]

Now that I am fully informed as to your own position we are done are we not?

http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/n...989&forum=48&0

http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/m...at.php?cid=272

You would all do well to a familiarise yourself with reality and truth if that attends to China as some have been doing for many years.

https://blog.ichabod.eu/home/ichabod-discussion/
03-24-2014 10:14 AM
awareness
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Do we excuse Nee for caving in to his communist accusers? Just because they prolly threatened to pull his finger and toe nails out?

I'm not saying I wouldn't have run with Lee from the communists. I'm just saying I wasn't preachin all in for the MOTA when the MOTA wasn't all in.

BTW. I think it no small matter that bro. Don Hardy believes Hsu's testimony as a true account.
03-24-2014 10:06 AM
Igzy
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
And saying Watchman Nee sent him to Taiwan, for the sake of the Lord's ministry, while Nee stayed behind, to suffer for the Lord's testimony, doesn't indict him either?
Not in and of itself. Just because God's calls some to be martyrs in a particular setting doesn't mean he calls everyone to be. Otherwise all the disciples would have died with Stephen, at that would have been the end of it. People have different callings.

Now, I'm not saying Nee was called to martyrdom, nor that Lee was called to Taiwan. I'm saying both could have been true at the same time. That's entirely possible in principle as far as my beliefs go.
03-24-2014 09:58 AM
awareness
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Igzy View Post
All I'm saying is that sometimes running is legitimate. The fact ALONE that Lee avoided the communists does not indict him.
And saying Watchman Nee sent him to Taiwan, for the sake of the Lord's ministry, while Nee stayed behind, to suffer for the Lord's testimony, doesn't indict him either?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lily Hsu
Why did Nee come back to Mainland China?
"His intent to return to Shanghai from Hong Kong was not likely to be a martyr. There was no record supporting his readiness for martyrdom."
Hsu M.D, Lily M.; Roberts M.A M.T.S, Dana (2013-04-02). My Unforgettable Memories:Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church (Kindle Locations 3651-3652). Xulon Press. Kindle Edition.
03-24-2014 09:46 AM
Igzy
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UntoHim View Post

So this book, this testimony of Dr. Hsu is merely just another piece to the puzzle. If her testimony is false, God will see fit to expose that in due time, and he surely does not need somebody who is several generations and half a world away from the events in question to do the exposing for him. My gut feeling tells me that much of her testimony is true. Why? Because it explains A LOT about how and why things have developed and how things have ended up in The Local Church. Sins are usually covered up and swept under the rug. Those who try to hold a candle up to expose the darkness are always vilified, shunned, marginalized and eventually separated. I used to think that this dynamic started with Witness Lee. Now I suspect that Lee got more than just "a vision" from Watchman Nee - I think he learned this method of covering sin and attacking the messenger from Nee, and then eventually he expanded and perfected it.
Well said, UntoHim. I agree with this.
03-24-2014 09:23 AM
UntoHim
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amrkelly View Post
Therefore how can I undertake that exercise here if it means that this is interpreted as detracting from the need of the other members who it is said 'sprang from Nee's ministry'.
What I am doing by very definition is going to be unwelcome and disliked, and by the definition which Igzy places on it, harmful as well.
In view of that inevitability it would appear that I am after all unable to continue on this site.
I made a comment very earlier on in my posts when I said, 'by the end of this I think we will all be sick to the stomach'...
This is a tragedy because at its heart lays a woman who provokes sympathy and a man who spent 23 years in a Labour Camp because of his refusal to cooperate with the TSPM process.
Thank you for your humility and sufferance.
Andrew,
I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what this forum is all about. (probably my fault more then anything else). This forum is not really a debate venue as much as it is a clearinghouse of sorts...a place where the main items being bartered are the TRUTH and REALITY. You don't seem to understand that these are EXTREMELY VALUABLE commodities to us former Local Church members. When we were cloistered behind the LC meeting hall doors for all those years, unbeknownst to us, we were deprived of TRUTH and REALITY, which are two of the major pillars that keep us fragile humans mentally and spiritually healthy.

As you may have noticed (or should have noticed) we former LC members are real touchy about these matters. We lock horns, we battle, we fight, sometimes we even lash out at our friends - all for the sake of getting to the truth - to the reality of all the good, bad and ugly we have experienced with this movement known as The Local Church. This matter of the life and times and ministry of Watchman Nee is naturally a major cog in our quest for the truth and reality. Keep in mind, for many, if not most, of us the respect and admiration of Watchman Nee is all we have left as far as holding that the LC movement was not all bad. Now it seems that this last bastion of hope is being pulled right from underneath us, and as with all idols, it is not going to fall easily.

But as far as I'm concerned, and as far as this forum is concerned, everything must be sacrificed at the alter of truth and reality. Nothing, absolutely nothing - no person, no sacred ground, no pet teaching or practice, will be preserved at the cost of the truth and reality that is revealed to us in God's word, and now confirmed by the Spirit of Truth.

So this book, this testimony of Dr. Hsu is merely just another piece to the puzzle. If her testimony is false, God will see fit to expose that in due time, and he surely does not need somebody who is several generations and half a world away from the events in question to do the exposing for him. My gut feeling tells me that much of her testimony is true. Why? Because it explains A LOT about how and why things have developed and how things have ended up in The Local Church. Sins are usually covered up and swept under the rug. Those who try to hold a candle up to expose the darkness are always vilified, shunned, marginalized and eventually separated. I used to think that this dynamic started with Witness Lee. Now I suspect that Lee got more than just "a vision" from Watchman Nee - I think he learned this method of covering sin and attacking the messenger from Nee, and then eventually he expanded and perfected it.
03-24-2014 09:05 AM
Igzy
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
Oh please bro Igzy. Yer just playin with me.

It's true that Lee ran like Paul and Jesus .... NOT!
All I'm saying is that sometimes running is legitimate. The fact ALONE that Lee avoided the communists does not indict him.
03-24-2014 09:03 AM
awareness
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Igzy View Post
Ummm, a bit too harsh on Lee. Paul sometimes "ran" from physical harm when he felt it wasn't yet his time. Jesus didn't just submit to the first group of stoners who wanted to kill him. Lee said he felt he should preserve and continue the ministry. Whether that is true or not, it's still a legitimate reason to "run."
Oh please bro Igzy. Yer just playin with me.

It's true that Lee ran like Paul and Jesus .... NOT!
03-24-2014 08:46 AM
Igzy
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
This alone disqualifies Nee as a true spiritual leader ... and Lee as well. Lee ran from the communists.
Ummm, a bit too harsh on Lee. Paul sometimes "ran" from physical harm when he felt it wasn't yet his time. Jesus didn't just submit to the first group of stoners who wanted to kill him. Lee said he felt he should preserve and continue the ministry. Whether that is true or not, it's still a legitimate reason to "run."
03-24-2014 08:40 AM
awareness
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elden1971 View Post
I have been to China and Taiwan and I did not need any English or American"trick" just the Love of God and here is a report received today from an old friend who has been to China many times and spoken with the Shanghai elders and believes Hsu's report: God took me with Him to China—where OVER 50 million have received the Lord Jesus, mostly without Bibles, without Xn “gimmicks” & without buildings, etc. (They meet in apartments, garages, haystacks, barns, markets, parks,etc.; and a number have been imprisoned because of their faith). Let me tell you of one teen-age girl: she got gloriously saved & filled with the Spirit, so started immed. sharing the Lord Jesus in the public square (“preaching”). The police grabbed her: at the station, they threatened & commanded her to “stop this now”, trying to intimidate her. She said, “I CANNOT!” So slapping her, they broke her jaw, then released her. Whereupon she went to the square, AGAIN proclaiming Jesus. They took her again, & broke the other side of her jaw! The unsaved folk of the town rose-up & a crowd demanded they release her; whereupon she AGAIN went to the square & shared the Lord Jesus! (Well, do we share the Lord where we are, in “safe” America?). (I could tell you many true accounts I have heard, of these “house-church” saints--I have been with those who shared their testimony). What an honor to be with God with these saints.
I do want to tell you what has so shaken-me-up lately—from 4 of the above incidents—before it is TOO LATE, but must desist temporarily. Love in Christ, Br. Don Hardy (co-worker with Samuel Chang who was Watchman Nee's brother in law...I too knew Samuel)
This sister took a stand for Christ that Watchman Nee was unwilling to take. Nee caved in to his communist accusers, for a more lenient sentence. He didn't take a stand for Christ and take whatever punishment they dished out.

This to me speaks more against Nee than all his sexual immoralities ; more even than the rape accusations. Nee required that his followers be all in, and hand over everything, yet he wasn't willing to be all in.

And it was the same for Lee. He wanted us all in to his ministry. Yet when his sons were compromising his ministry, and corrupting the church, Lee wasn't all in.

So both of them, both of "the ministers of the age," would not go all in like they wanted their followers to go. Both were not all in. Both were hypocrites.

This alone disqualifies Nee as a true spiritual leader ... and Lee as well. Lee ran from the communists.
03-24-2014 08:25 AM
Igzy
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
If we think Lily Hsu is giving us the truth, then we didn’t learn anything from our time with Lee, and continue to lap without question from whatever source is right in front of us.
I think what you really mean is that if we accept Lily Hsu's statements unquestioningly and unthinkingly, then we didn't learn anything from our time with Lee.

Otherwise you seem to be saying, if we don't conclude Hsu is lying, we didn't learn anything. If that's what you were saying then it would mean, ironically, it was you that didn't learn anything. (You also may have meant, we should remain undecided.)

Obviously, no one here has "lapped without question." We all have questions. I just tend to believe her general account of history. I don't see a motive for her lying.

Was Nee a "rapist?" I don't know, but I think he fell into sexual sin, and I think he abused spiritual authority.



The rape charge is odd. Because if all Hsu and Roberts wanted to do was damage Nee's reputation, then charges of sexual dalliances with multiple women would have been enough, and probably would have worked better. "Rape" seems like overreaching, because it sounds so fantastic and unlikely. Whereas, anyone can understand a powerful, even spiritual, man falling into sexual sin. It happened to David and Solomon, after all.

So why charge "rape?" The only answers are either that is the way Hsu heard it, or they are very stupid and overreached in their attempt to defame Nee.
03-24-2014 07:40 AM
Elden1971
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amrkelly View Post
Harold thanks for your words but there is nothing to be done. When I say to you that things could only get worse I really mean it. I have posted a tiny fraction of the information I have found. I haven't even been to China. Just remember this an Englishman is a welcomed friend in China. Its what we are good at. Its called diplomacy. When I do my English trick Harold people open doors it has always been that way.
I have been to China and Taiwan and I did not need any English or American"trick" just the Love of God and here is a report received today from an old friend who has been to China many times and spoken with the Shanghai elders and believes Hsu's report: God took me with Him to China—where OVER 50 million have received the Lord Jesus, mostly without Bibles, without Xn “gimmicks” & without buildings, etc. (They meet in apartments, garages, haystacks, barns, markets, parks,etc.; and a number have been imprisoned because of their faith). Let me tell you of one teen-age girl: she got gloriously saved & filled with the Spirit, so started immed. sharing the Lord Jesus in the public square (“preaching”). The police grabbed her: at the station, they threatened & commanded her to “stop this now”, trying to intimidate her. She said, “I CANNOT!” So slapping her, they broke her jaw, then released her. Whereupon she went to the square, AGAIN proclaiming Jesus. They took her again, & broke the other side of her jaw! The unsaved folk of the town rose-up & a crowd demanded they release her; whereupon she AGAIN went to the square & shared the Lord Jesus! (Well, do we share the Lord where we are, in “safe” America?). (I could tell you many true accounts I have heard, of these “house-church” saints--I have been with those who shared their testimony). What an honor to be with God with these saints.
I do want to tell you what has so shaken-me-up lately—from 4 of the above incidents—before it is TOO LATE, but must desist temporarily. Love in Christ, Br. Don Hardy (co-worker with Samuel Chang who was Watchman Nee's brother in law...I too knew Samuel)
03-24-2014 07:25 AM
Igzy
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amrkelly View Post
Harold thanks for your words but there is nothing to be done. When I say to you that things could only get worse I really mean it. I have posted a tiny fraction of the information I have found. I haven't even been to China. Just remember this an Englishman is a welcomed friend in China. Its what we are good at. Its called diplomacy. When I do my English trick Harold people open doors it has always been that way.
It seems like you should make it your life's work to find out the facts, rather that show Hsu wrong. The latter shows an extreme initial bias. You are clearly trying to build a case rather than letting the facts speak for themselves.

I think if you really had a strong case against Hsu you would have already summarized it and made your point here in a convincing way. But mostly you've just dumped a bunch of details that don't add up to much that is conclusive.

Some of your replies just don't hold water. When people say they don't understand you, you reply that if you wanted to make yourself understood to us, you would. Say what? Do you really expect anyone to buy that your intentionally obscure statements are only meant to hide wisdom from the unworthy? I know, I know. You don't care if we understand you or not. Which is another statement that makes you seem suspicious. Frankly, I don't think you have the case you want people to think you have, hence all the bluster.

Just stick to the facts and state them plainly and don't act as if they add up to more than what they obviously do.
03-23-2014 04:35 PM
OBW
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amrkelly View Post
There are a number of testimonies which have come out of China during these times. In many instances people broke down during intense physical and psychological torture. Even admitting to crimes they had not committed. In the main that meant admitting to counter revolutionary activities. Wang Mingdao is just one example. He is said to have had a near mental breakdown. When he recovered his mind he withdrew his acknowledgement.

This whole CEC process was not a simple matter of crimes being committed
I'll stop the quote there because it is yet another run-on sentence. Something the users of superior British English seem prone to more than many others.

But that first paragraph is a lot of nonsense. Not saying that the Chinese communists did not do a lot to break people to confess to things they never did. But in that assertion, you hide that the picture Hsu was shown actually was Nee's, and that he took it himself. That it was the product of a relationship in which a woman to whom Nee was not married would simply be naked with him in what must have been a somewhat regular way because she described the event of the taking of the picture in such a way that the only surprising or unusual thing about it was that Nee took the photograph.

I can't be bullied into believing that this did not happen just by saying this essential irrelevancy concerning the communists over and over. It doesn't even matter whether Nee actually led the people in the church to be subversive to the new government. Nee wasn't a fit leader of them. He should not have been a teacher. We should not take his teachings with anything less than great skepticism. Yet so many are willing to forgive his sins (that he did not ask forgiveness concerning that I have seen mentioned anywhere) and return him to his self-appointed place at the top of the spiritual ladder.

The only fool here is the one who thinks that everyone here is simply that stupid.
03-23-2014 03:27 PM
aron
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Igzy View Post
The book has never been sold as anything but Hsu's personal account, so of course it is subjective. It is her viewpoint, she never tries to hide that. The subtitle isn't "An Objective Study by Disinterested Parties." It's plainly Lily Hsu's recollections. It's written in the first person.
I re-read the book yesterday, and now feel less harshly inclined toward it, and admit I over-reacted, and think that I understand it better. But I still think it fails in that she uses her experiences and research to form an assessment of Watchman Nee’s person and work that she has no business doing. Worse, she tries to steer the reader instead of letting them make up their own mind. That was what I found so demeaning the first time I read it. I am perfectly capable of making up my own mind, thank you (or at least trying – and yes, I can change my mind as new information comes along).

Hsu & Roberts fail two tests: the test of being Christians and letting God judge, and the test of being historians and letting the reader decide. Of course Hsu has opinions! But she should acknowledge them try to help the reader get past them toward some semblance of truth. Instead she attempts to pin you with her subjective assessments. And Roberts the supposed scholar abets in this, instead of curing her of it.

I don’t judge her actions, at the time. If anyone was between a rock and a hard place it was young Lily Hsu, with Nee’s Little Flock on one side and the Communists on the other. Neither looks palatable. Nor do I begrudge her dredging primary and secondary sources, years later, to try and make sense of it all, or sharing her experiences and findings in a book. Had she left it there it might have been a powerful testimony.

Instead, and I quote Kelly:
Quote:
The range of issues which this book covers is simply breathtaking. It is a truly comprehensive attack on Nee the man, Nee the christian, Nee the teacher and Nee the businessman. It includes every single part of his life and ministry. No one in the whole world has that information. Especially Dr Hsu who scarcely knew him.
The reader isn’t given a memoir. The memoir is bait to get us “the truth about Watchman Nee”, and because of that I still say that it’s a flop; ultimately it only distracts us from Jesus Christ our Lord. If we think Lily Hsu is giving us the truth, then we didn’t learn anything from our time with Lee, and continue to lap without question from whatever source is right in front of us.
03-23-2014 02:31 PM
Igzy
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amrkelly View Post
I made a comment very earlier on in my posts when I said, 'by the end of this I think we will all be sick to the stomach'. That realisation sprang from the discernment that this book is written in far too much of a subjective way. It is a clever dissemination of the subjective understanding of Dr Hsu and Joshua Yu. Dana Roberts is no less implicated in that subjectivity due to his prior history of claiming that Nee's teachings are in fact heretical and harmful.

This is a tragedy because at its heart lays a woman who provokes sympathy and a man who spent 23 years in a Labour Camp because of his refusal to cooperate with the TSMP process.

Thank you for your humility and sufferance.

Andrew M. R. Kelly
The book has never been sold as anything but Hsu's personal account, so of course it is subjective. It is her viewpoint, she never tries to hide that. The subtitle isn't "An Objective Study by Disinterested Parties." It's plainly Lily Hsu's recollections. It's written in the first person.

Had the book been written by Roberts assuming a faux scholarly air, but actually only channeling Hsu, the book could have been categorized as "clever." But it's actually kind of a clunky book. There is clearly a language barrier seen in the occasional awkward prose. They don't try to smooth this over. The author isn't pretending. She definitely has some subjective opinions. But the fact that Nee's movement was her whole life for years gives her the right to have and publish some subjective opinions.

To me the book, as flawed as it is, is an invaluable record of that time. Does it paint Nee in an unflattering light? Yes. But I don't recall you or too many other people getting bent out of shape over the biographies of Nee, particularly Lee's, which went over the top painting Nee as some higher form of spiritual life.

I don't see your input of facts as a detriment to the mission of this board at all. I do see your occasional defiant intolerance of others as a detriment to YOUR mission. Just stick to the facts and stay away from hyperbole and self-defensiveness and we'll get along well enough. If you want your opinion to be the final word, it's not going to happen here. The final word is harder to find here than a compulsive truthteller in Congress.
03-23-2014 02:23 PM
amrkelly
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
But if you run off it will only look like you came on this site acting like the big kahuna, making big claims about your ambition to expose the truth about Hsu's book, without following thru. It'll all end up just being nothing but big talk.

You don't want that do you?
We are all brothers in Christ Harold. There are no big Kahuna's. I'll keep you informed personally Harold. Bless you.
03-23-2014 02:19 PM
awareness
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amrkelly View Post
Harold thanks for your words but there is nothing to be done. When I say to you that things could only get worse I really mean it. I have posted a tiny fraction of the information I have found. I haven't even been to China. Just remember this an Englishman is a welcomed friend in China. Its what we are good at. Its called diplomacy. When I do my English trick Harold people open doors it has always been that way.
But if you run off it will only look like you came on this site acting like the big kahuna, making big claims about your ambition to expose the truth about Hsu's book, without following thru. It'll all end up just being nothing but big talk.

You don't want that do you?
03-23-2014 02:09 PM
amrkelly
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
Oh toughen up bro Andrew. Don't tuck yer tail and run off. Face it you are on a forum of ex-Neeites.

Still I think your work has merit and value. And if nothing else causes us to take a closer look at Hsu's book.
Harold thanks for your words but there is nothing to be done. When I say to you that things could only get worse I really mean it. I have posted a tiny fraction of the information I have found. I haven't even been to China. Just remember this an Englishman is a welcomed friend in China. Its what we are good at. Its called diplomacy. When I do my English trick Harold people open doors it has always been that way.
03-23-2014 02:03 PM
awareness
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Oh toughen up bro Andrew. Don't tuck yer tail and run off. Face it you are on a forum of ex-Neeites.

Still I think your work has merit and value. And if nothing else causes us to take a closer look at Hsu's book.
03-23-2014 01:51 PM
amrkelly
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UntoHim View Post

I am humbly requesting amrkelly (and anyone else so inclined) to pray-read this quote several times. Ok, ok maybe not pray-read but at least take it to heart in a major way. Surely the British are not opposed to taking something to heart, are they?

There are probably only a handful of people that know the whole truth to this matter who would have access to this forum. I really hope and pray that they might come and give us some first hand testimony that may collaborate or else discredit Dr. Hsu's testimony. In the meantime, we are left to take her testimony and run it through the filter of what we do know about Watchman Nee, and maybe even more importantly for our purposes here, through the filter of our personal knowledge and experience with Nee's closest followers and the movement that sprang from his ministry.
I did of course read Igzy's post and clearly I understand what he is saying. Having read it now as you have asked several more times, thoughtfully and in consideration of the need of the other members of the forum, it's meaning seems reasonably clear. I have always understood what this forum was about, and that fact is in my first few posts. I have always acknowledged that I cannot contribute to a discussion which has to do with people who have been hurt by churches which have authoritative links with Lee, and what follows on from him.

My only question now is a simple one.

Even if I make every effort not to place a subjective interpretation onto my posts, it is inevitable in my view that what I do post will have the effect of rationally challenging this book. You have suggested that there may be only a few people who might have access to this site who are able to bear witness to the whole truth, or else deny the content of this book. I would suggest that it is unlikely that there is anyone in the whole world who is able to do that. The range of issues which this book covers is simply breathtaking. It is a truly comprehensive attack on Nee the man, Nee the christian, Nee the teacher and Nee the businessman. It includes every single part of his life and ministry. No one in the whole world has that information. Especially Dr Hsu who scarcely knew him. It is for this reason that the book is of necessity only valid if it is properly cited and the citations are tested and proven as to the origination of those sources. This will include personal letters, papers, official publications, verbal conversations, private biographies, published biographies and so on.

Therefore how can I undertake that exercise here if it means that this is interpreted as detracting from the need of the other members who it is said 'sprang from Nee's ministry'.

What I am doing by very definition is going to be unwelcome and disliked, and by the definition which Igzy places on it, harmful as well.

In view of that inevitability it would appear that I am after all unable to continue on this site.

I made a comment very earlier on in my posts when I said, 'by the end of this I think we will all be sick to the stomach'. That realisation sprang from the discernment that this book is written in far too much of a subjective way. It is a clever dissemination of the subjective understanding of Dr Hsu and Joshua Yu. Dana Roberts is no less implicated in that subjectivity due to his prior history of claiming that Nee's teachings are in fact heretical and harmful.

This is a tragedy because at its heart lays a woman who provokes sympathy and a man who spent 23 years in a Labour Camp because of his refusal to cooperate with the TSPM process.

Thank you for your humility and sufferance.

Andrew M. R. Kelly
03-23-2014 12:36 PM
Igzy
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
Usually I don't respond so strongly, so I actually was puzzled myself and went back and read through the first 14 chapters again. I guess I mischaracterized it in my response. When I said “rubbish” and “trash” it seemed as if I were passing judgment on it and in that I was wrong. I apologize. What I should have said is that the book does nothing for me. “That which once I desired now I count as refuse.” Something like what I remember of Philippians 3:8.

I came here to earth to find Christ. Christ is the way home. If Hsu & Roberts find Christ in narrating her account, so be it. But my journey is clearly elsewhere. I should have just kept my mouth shut and my typewriter quiet. Ah well. Live and learn, as they say.
Breaking down myths of so-called superspiritual men whom I am supposed to see as Acting Gods, Ministers of the Age, and Unquestioned Deputy Authorities of God on Earth definitely, definitely helps me find Chist, by removing all haunting pretenders. So the book definitely helped me find Christ. No doubt in my experience. Thumbs up. Even if all the rape allegations are mistakes. The naked emperor has been exposed. That's a good--no a GREAT--thing.
03-23-2014 12:03 PM
UntoHim
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Igzy View Post
Kelly, I appreciate your bringing facts to our attention. I wish you would let us come to our own conclusions about what those facts add up to. We also know facts that you don't. We can help each other. There is disagreement about what they mean. Don't you think God is capable of leading each of us into the truth about what that actually is, without all the strife and rancor and put downs? I know we are going to clash, but let's at least be halfway friendly about it. Someone might be watching.

I am humbly requesting amrkelly (and anyone else so inclined) to pray-read this quote several times. Ok, ok maybe not pray-read but at least take it to heart in a major way. Surely the British are not opposed to taking something to heart, are they?

There are probably only a handful of people that know the whole truth to this matter who would have access to this forum. I really hope and pray that they might come and give us some first hand testimony that may collaborate or else discredit Dr. Hsu's testimony. In the meantime, we are left to take her testimony and run it through the filter of what we do know about Watchman Nee, and maybe even more importantly for our purposes here, through the filter of our personal knowledge and experience with Nee's closest followers and the movement that sprang from his ministry.
03-23-2014 10:17 AM
awareness
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amrkelly View Post
Technically Harold it is an issue of Copyright. Anyone can steal a car and have it resprayed. That doesn't make the car yours. I have broken my own rules. These pages could be published in the original Chinese with no problem at all. In English they are Copyright. However as I have purchased the English Copyright book I am allowed to re-produce a small amount without landing myself or the Site into hot water. If I had the time to have the original translated into English it would become my legal property. Its called the 5% rule.
Here in America we have "Fair Use" of copyright material. Just be sure to cite it.
03-23-2014 09:48 AM
amrkelly
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
I told you we have to make 'em presentable. I tried. If you can, kudos to you.
Technically Harold it is an issue of Copyright. Anyone can steal a car and have it resprayed. That doesn't make the car yours. I have broken my own rules. These pages could be published in the original Chinese with no problem at all. In English they are Copyright. However as I have purchased the English Copyright book I am allowed to re-produce a small amount without landing myself or the Site into hot water. If I had the time to have the original translated into English it would become my legal property. Its called the 5% rule.
03-23-2014 09:39 AM
awareness
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amrkelly View Post
OK Harold I will convert them to PDF files so they can be text edited. I give in.

That's done Harold. Now they will be downloadable as fully view files and then if you want to OCR them you should be able to do.
I told you we have to make 'em presentable. I tried. If you can, kudos to you.
03-23-2014 09:16 AM
amrkelly
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
These attached thumbnails are unreadable ... even when magnified ... and un-scanable into OCR text. I tried.

Therefore the court rules : This evidence is inadmissible, due to impossible quality.

But I saved them anyway.
OK Harold I will convert them to PDF files so they can be text edited. I give in.

That's done Harold. Now they will be downloadable as fully viewable files and then if you want to OCR them you should be able to do. I didn't realise that the site thumb nailed other .pgn files
03-23-2014 09:08 AM
awareness
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amrkelly View Post
The following attachments represent the contribution which Luo Zhufeng made to this paper.

Luo Zhufeng was the former BRA Chief. He was responsible for the CEC processes in Shanghai in 1951 through to 1959. He was also the Chairman presiding in person and directing in person the accusations trials. This included Watchman Nee. Thus when Dr Hsu testified against Nee this is the man she was addressing on behalf of the people.
These attached thumbnails are unreadable ... even when magnified ... and un-scanable into OCR text. I tried.

Therefore the court rules : This evidence is inadmissible, due to impossible quality.

But I saved them anyway.
03-23-2014 09:04 AM
amrkelly
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

The following attachments represents content by the six researchers where they identify Ni Tuoshen (Watchman Nee) and the Shanghai Christian Assembly by name. The list of crimes almost exactly corresponded with those of Dr Hsu.

The only difference is that this was researched in 1983-86 and published internally in China for academic and theological purposes in 1987.

Most of the research was aimed at showing how effective the previous 30 years of oppression of religion had been. All the statistical information in the broader paper relates specifically to Shanghai. In these screen shots this information is hidden.
03-23-2014 08:52 AM
amrkelly
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

The following attachments represent the contribution which Luo Zhufeng made to this paper.

Luo Zhufeng was the former BRA Chief. He was responsible for the CEC processes in Shanghai in 1951 through to 1959. He was also the Chairman presiding in person and directing in person the accusations trials. This included Watchman Nee. Thus when Dr Hsu testified against Nee this is the man she was addressing on behalf of the people.
03-23-2014 08:50 AM
awareness
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

I'm just itchin to discuss Nee's confession ... but as an aside.

I just love this from Lily's book (when he says, "I am not brave enough to follow either side," that's how I feel) :

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Lily Hsu
On July 6, 2004, the late Rev. Jonathan Wu, a retired principal of China Bible Seminary in Hong Kong wrote an article Spoken out from a Sense of Justice (unpublished) with his pen name Little Ezra. It was only distributed to a few friends. I got it shortly afterward from Joshua Yu, but I did not know whom the writer was.

He wrote:
For the last several years, consciously or not, I have heard much positive and negative information regarding the private life of Brother Nee. As I cannot figure out if it is true or not, I am not brave enough to follow either side, but only to pray and ponder. When will this puzzle be solved? Only for the sake of the name of the Lord, and under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, will Christians who know the facts be willing to step forward bravely and speak out of a sense of justice. It would be helpful for the children of God to solve this puzzle. There would be no more sadness, anger, weakness and tears, for we would receive comfort from the Lord. In case of a similar situation happening in the future, we would not be shocked, like a bolt from the blue.
Hsu M.D, Lily M.; Roberts M.A M.T.S, Dana (2013-04-02). My Unforgettable Memories:Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church (Kindle Locations 218-222). Xulon Press. Kindle Edition.
03-23-2014 08:44 AM
amrkelly
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

The following attachments represent the contribution that the Chairman of the Three Self Patriotic Movement made to the research which is contained in this paper. The paper itself is based on research done by the request of the State into the condition and prevailing circumstance of religion in China after nearly 30 years of Communist Rule.

Bishop Ting became Chairman of the TSPM in 1979 after the death of Wu YaoZong.
03-23-2014 07:23 AM
amrkelly
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OBW View Post
The point would be to go to your punishment with a clear conscience. And if he confessed to a lie, then he was responsible for harming the faith of those who thought you were one step from God. And he lied to obtain a better outcome. That affects many in a negative manner. I realize that if he actually told the truth, the affect on the others was the same. But at least it was strictly between them an God as to what to do about having been following such a one. I'm sure that Hsu was far from the only one whose faith was damaged. But if she broke due to it, she was also pushed in that direction by the ones who wanted religion pushed aside anyway.

You blame her for having been shown the duplicity of her main leader and not having the knowledge and belief to withstand it? Her faith was built on the shifting sand of special teachings of Nee. If they were found to be chaff, then what else did she have? That was the foundation of her faith. She either had to declare it all lies (like Lee, BP, RK, KR, DT, DS, and so many more did and continue to do) or find a better foundation. And do it in a vacuum in which the claimant to the direct flow to God would appear to have been a fraud.

Now. I don't like the Communists. But they were the authority and we are now several years into that and the people you have been among are intentionally acting against the government. The people I have been among are now seen as having a base of uncertainty. What do you do?

Armchair warriors declare that she should have stood strong in her faith.

What faith? The one claiming superiority while the one leading the way doesn't even follow it? He just demands that you do? Not sure what that is. No matter what I thought of communism, these people I've been with are now what? Deluded subversives? I decide I am through with them but the only way to get free of them is to confess what I know of their actual activities.
There are a number of testimonies which have come out of China during these times. In many instances people broke down during intense physical and psychological torture. Even admitting to crimes they had not committed. In the main that meant admitting to counter revolutionary activities. Wang Mingdao is just one example. He is said to have had a near mental breakdown. When he recovered his mind he withdrew his acknowledgement.

This whole CEC process was not a simple matter of crimes being committed it was essentially a process of breaking the will of men and women to comply with the Communist Government and agree not to do anything which the Government thought was contrary to their ambitions. When Dr Hsu made her decision to bear witness in this process of denouncing Nee, as the head of a work, she had not been tortured. She even goes as far as to acknowledge that she found the process reasonable. The one thing she says is her interrogators were authoritative. Your argument is starting from the wrong place. It assumes Nee is once again responsible.

When Jesus was arrested the disciples were scattered. Jesus warned them that this would happen. Is the Lord to be held responsible because he acknowledged before Herod that He was the king of Israel. "Are you the king of the Jews?" "You have said well that I am the king of the Jews". When the Lord was crucified the charge above his head was "King of the Jews". It was a crime directly against the Roman State to claim to be king. The cry in Israel was "We have no other king but Caesar."

When Dr Hsu therefore agreed to cooperate with the state in China she did so on the single basis that she was shown two pieces of evidence. It seems to me that your argument is based on psychology and has little to do with the greater reality of why the Shanghai Church came under the CEC process and how that fact stood out.

The publication which Harold posted a link to sets this thing in context of how the Chinese Government saw things. They say that Shanghai Church was selected for complete destruction to make an example of them and to bring other churches in line. That is the whole point of providing real life material and evidential based material. It does not require psychology and subjective speculation. Nor does it amount to being an armchair warrior.
03-23-2014 06:39 AM
awareness
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OBW View Post
if he confessed to a lie,
Good point OBW. Does a martyr for Christ lie to save his own skin?
03-23-2014 05:37 AM
OBW
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
Did Hsu/Roberts mention that Nee had two choices: plead innocent and get hard labor or plead guilty and get confinement? Did anyone stop and think that nobody could plead innocent to any benefit at all? No? Instead I read posts that "Nee confessed. There: he is guilty. He said it himself." And when I bring up the sham Chinese legal process they change the topic and go on to something else.

I would like to know how many people in China in the years 1950 to 1960 pled innocent to charges, held a defence, convinced the magistrates of the wrongness of them, and walked away free. How many?
The point would be to go to your punishment with a clear conscience. And if he confessed to a lie, then he was responsible for harming the faith of those who thought you were one step from God. And he lied to obtain a better outcome. That affects many in a negative manner. I realize that if he actually told the truth, the affect on the others was the same. But at least it was strictly between them an God as to what to do about having been following such a one. I'm sure that Hsu was far from the only one whose faith was damaged. But if she broke due to it, she was also pushed in that direction by the ones who wanted religion pushed aside anyway.

You blame her for having been shown the duplicity of her main leader and not having the knowledge and belief to withstand it? Her faith was built on the shifting sand of special teachings of Nee. If they were found to be chaff, then what else did she have? That was the foundation of her faith. She either had to declare it all lies (like Lee, BP, RK, KR, DT, DS, and so many more did and continue to do) or find a better foundation. And do it in a vacuum in which the claimant to the direct flow to God would appear to have been a fraud.

Now. I don't like the Communists. But they were the authority and we are now several years into that and the people you have been among are intentionally acting against the government. The people I have been among are now seen as having a base of uncertainty. What do you do?

Armchair warriors declare that she should have stood strong in her faith.

What faith? The one claiming superiority while the one leading the way doesn't even follow it? He just demands that you do? Not sure what that is. No matter what I thought of communism, these people I've been with are now what? Deluded subversives? I decide I am through with them but the only way to get free of them is to confess what I know of their actual activities.
03-22-2014 09:27 PM
awareness
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Goodness! Everybody cool down ... and take a chill pill.
03-22-2014 09:20 PM
amrkelly
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Kelly, this is a public forum which I contribute to. Don't tell me to go away. Don't threaten me. Don't tell me you are not a coward. Your threats of legal action are total BullShip. Breaking International Laws? Are you on drugs? The only false accusations are from your keyboard. Have you no honesty? How can my warnings be "harassment," when you can just leave this site, something you keep promising to do. Keep your word, kelly, and leave like you promised!

Kelly, it is you who are trolling my forum. You are the one who needs to go. I help to pay the expenses here. You have no right to tell me to leave, but I have every right to tell you to behave yourself, take ownership for your actions, post in a Christian manner, don't play "re-buk-ey-you" games, don't set "snares" for others, don't mock us Yankees, etc.

Like I said, Kelly, Grow up and be a man!
You are very much mistaken Ohio. This is a public forum and when you slander a person by their true name you are breaking the Law. Regardless as to whether you can see this it is a fact. My advise is to ask the Moderator to send you a copy of the information I posted momentarily last night so that anyone who received notifications on this thread would be able to get the information. I can see that you did not. This is not a joke. This web site is in private ownership. The legally responsible party is the registered person for the domain name. The site is governed by various legal international agreements which are enforceable. Your finical participation and support of the forum has no meaning whatsoever. That is your personal and private choice. There is a good reason I don't hide behind anonymity Ohio. You would do well to realise that there is also a good reason you do.

The term go away does not mean leave the site. If that were my intended meaning then it would be inconsistent with my own comments that I would always follow the advise of the site Moderator and no one else. Clearly in that circumstance I could scarcely intend to instruct you.

My request to you is a formal one and I relate it once again Ohio. I Regard your continuous use of my name attendant to accusations which slander my person to be harassment. Are you a lawyer Ohio? Do you know any judges who might advise you? If not go and search the Internet as to the possible and likely consequences to a person in private ownership failing to take responsibility and permitting the incitement of religious hatred. I did not threaten you Ohio. You are a fool. The fact that I can leave this site voluntarily has no bearing on what has been said against me. Unfortunately for you Ohio it isn't possible to slander a nation. So there will be no reciprocity open to the owner of the site.

Even if the site is removed altogether I have, as I have said, exercised a public right to down load the whole site including all threads, posts and so on and therefore I have the material evidence as to my concern on my own computer. If you think that your anonymity is safe then I have to tell you that it is not. There are legal means to require that information from the owner of the site for legal purposes. Apart from that you have visited my own sites and left your signature electronically. Welcome to the World Wide Web Ohio.

My Name Ohio is

Andrew Michael Robert Kelly

I live at:

Bosvenna House
Bodmin
Cornwall
England
PL31 2AF

Anytime you feel like helping me to be a man please call on me. Bring your friend Igzy. I would like to see him whip my ass.
03-22-2014 09:01 PM
Ohio
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amrkelly View Post
It doesn't matter what you think Ohio. I have stated the facts. I don't care what you think. Can you not get that. What do you suppose would settle this matter Ohio? You wilfully disregard what I have said on the matter, no matter what it is I have said. I am surprised that the Moderator of this site even allows for such a continuous harassment of another member. If you even had an ounce of common sense you would stop right now Ohio.

You simply have no idea what you are doing. Go away man. I have no respect for you whatsoever. You lost it weeks ago along with a few others who have not once even tried to engage with me in a manner commensurate with what I have said. And spare me the unnecessary responses. You say nothing of merit. You do not address your own offences. You and Igzy and OBW and another have acted appallingly.

There are legal means Ohio to put a stop to you. Take my free and gracious advice and stop harassing me with your continuous insults, innuendoes and sick American humour.

You talk in terms consistent with a charade. This is not a game.There are laws against harassment even on the Internet. If you understood how close you are to breaking International Laws you would go and lie down. STOP IT OHIO I AM FORMALLY TELLING YOU THAT I REGARD YOUR CONTINUOUS USE OF MY NAME AND REPEATED FALSE ACCUSATIONS TO BE AN HARASSMENT OF MY PERSON. I am saying this for your sake and mine. You are pressing me with such ignorance and refusing to even countenance the possibility that what I have said, including the insults are self evidently clear. Just to let you know and the Moderator. I started downloading the whole site over four hours ago. At the moment I am at level 6 of the domain folder and have downloaded over 90,000 files with what appears like 30,000 to go.

Go away Ohio. Just go away. I asked you to leave me alone numerous times.
You have deliberately jumped in as others have had a swing at me. I take you to be a coward Ohio. I am not a coward I really do say what I mean. I don't hide behind the Scriptures and I have not spoken a lie. Go away Ohio for both our sakes go away.
Kelly, this is a public forum which I contribute to. Don't tell me to go away. Don't threaten me. Don't tell me you are not a coward. Your threats of legal action are total BullShip. Breaking International Laws? Are you on drugs? The only false accusations are from your keyboard. Have you no honesty? How can my warnings be "harassment," when you can just leave this site, something you keep promising to do. Keep your word, kelly, and leave like you promised!

Kelly, it is you who are trolling my forum. You are the one who needs to go. I help to pay the expenses here. You have no right to tell me to leave, but I have every right to tell you to behave yourself, take ownership for your actions, post in a Christian manner, don't play "re-buk-ey-you" games, don't set "snares" for others, don't mock us Yankees, etc.

Like I said, Kelly, Grow up and be a man!
03-22-2014 08:13 PM
amrkelly
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Kelly, at least be honest about double quoting, and quit playing stupid. Double posting can be accidental, but double quoting doesn't happen by accident, so don't be blaming your keyboard. If it really were so, you could use the edit feature. So fess up, kelly, be a man, quit playing childish games.

Kelly, you sure are full of excuses. First you blame the keyboard, then you blame Satan. I don't think the Lord cares for your little "rebukey" games. Are you now pretending to be Michael the archangel rebuking Lucifer? You come to this forum patronizing us, calling us fools, mocking us all as dumb yankees, yada, yada, yada, and then claim to speak for the Lord?

Unfortunately, kelly, you think that you have been delivered from Satan, and can now go around "setting snares for men's feet," as you have repeatedly told us. This is not God's work, but part of your past life in Satanism. Think about what you are saying. As Paul told Timothy about those caught by the "snare of the Devil," --- "return to sobriety." (2 Tim 2.26)
It doesn't matter what you think Ohio. I have stated the facts. I don't care what you think. Can you not get that. What do you suppose would settle this matter Ohio? You wilfully disregard what I have said on the matter, no matter what it is I have said. I am surprised that the Moderator of this site even allows for such a continuous harassment of another member. If you even had an ounce of common sense you would stop right now Ohio. You simply have no idea what you are doing. Go away man. I have no respect for you whatsoever. You lost it weeks ago along with a few others who have not once even tried to engage with me in a manner commensurate with what I have said. And spare me the unnecessary responses. You say nothing of merit. You do not address your own offences. You and Igzy and OBW and another have acted appallingly.

There are legal means Ohio to put a stop to you. Take my free and gracious advice and stop harassing me with your continuous insults, innuendoes and sick American humour.

You talk in terms consistent with a charade. This is not a game.There are laws against harassment even on the Internet. If you understood how close you are to breaking International Laws you would go and lie down. STOP IT OHIO I AM FORMALLY TELLING YOU THAT I REGARD YOUR CONTINUOUS USE OF MY NAME AND REPEATED FALSE ACCUSATIONS TO BE AN HARASSMENT OF MY PERSON. I am saying this for your sake and mine. You are pressing me with such ignorance and refusing to even countenance the possibility that what I have said, including the insults are self evidently clear. Just to let you know and the Moderator. I started downloading the whole site over four hours ago. At the moment I am at level 6 of the domain folder and have downloaded over 90,000 files with what appears like 30,000 to go. Go away Ohio. Just go away. I asked you to leave me alone numerous times. You have deliberately jumped in as others have had a swing at me. I take you to be a coward Ohio. I am not a coward I really do say what I mean. I don't hide behind the Scriptures and I have not spoken a lie. Go away Ohio for both our sakes go away.
03-22-2014 07:57 PM
Ohio
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amrkelly View Post
Folks ... what's wrong with this picture?
Kelly begins to double quote me, but that is NOT mocking.
I triple quote Kelly in return, but that IS mocking?
Are you serious?

You are truly a fool. It is astonishing. Can it be possible that a man of your age actually believes that I am double posting for some meaning. I have no idea why my computer has double posted. It's doing a few weird things on this site at the moment and I have no idea why. I do not even know the significance of double posting. Its pathetic! I think I have finally been convinced that you have no idea what I have even been saying. You have no idea what you have said. You think its a game. That is genuinely astonishing.

You call a man who was saved whilst he was a Satanist in prison, 'a servant of Satan', and you have no idea of the weight of the thing you have said. I know Satan up close and personal Ohio. I once worshiped him in the open, in prison and controlled the other inmates by that means. You are completely mad. You are ignorant and you are simply not worth any more of my time. I do say The Lord Rebuke you Ohio. You are worthy of the rebuke.
Kelly, at least be honest about double quoting, and quit playing stupid. Double posting can be accidental, but double quoting doesn't happen by accident, so don't be blaming your keyboard. If it really were so, you could use the edit feature. So fess up, kelly, be a man, quit playing childish games.

Kelly, you sure are full of excuses. First you blame the keyboard, then you blame Satan. I don't think the Lord cares for your little "rebukey" games. Are you now pretending to be Michael the archangel rebuking Lucifer? You come to this forum patronizing us, calling us fools, mocking us all as dumb yankees, yada, yada, yada, and then claim to speak for the Lord?

Unfortunately, kelly, you think that you have been delivered from Satan, and can now go around "setting snares for men's feet," as you have repeatedly told us. This is not God's work, but part of your past life in Satanism. Think about what you are saying. As Paul told Timothy about those caught by the "snare of the Devil," --- "return to sobriety." (2 Tim 2.26)
03-22-2014 07:19 PM
amrkelly
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Kelly, you sure like to dish it out to others "in the name of the Lord," but when I mirror a little bit back at you, then your keyboard starts shaking.

Folks ... what's wrong with this picture?
Kelly begins to double quote me, but that is NOT mocking.
I triple quote Kelly in return, but that IS mocking?
Are you serious?

Listen Kelly, you said repeatedly that you came to this forum to "set snares for men's feet." So I quoted you scripture about doing Satan's work of setting snares for men. I was hoping that you might listen to God's word, since you obviously won't listen to anyone else.

Kelly, you are just an internet troll. You are a bully. You like to shovel your holy epithets at everyone else, expecting them to beg mercy, but when I shovel it back at you, then you throw a tantrum about getting your tightey whiteys soiled.

Like the Apostle Paul said, "Grow up, Be a man."
Folks ... what's wrong with this picture?
Kelly begins to double quote me, but that is NOT mocking.
I triple quote Kelly in return, but that IS mocking?
Are you serious?

You are truly a fool. It is astonishing. Can it be possible that a man of your age actually believes that I am double posting for some meaning. I have no idea why my computer has double posted. It's doing a few weird things on this site at the moment and I have no idea why. I do not even know the significance of double posting. Its pathetic! I think I have finally been convinced that you have no idea what I have even been saying. You have no idea what you have said. You think its a game. That is genuinely astonishing.

You call a man who was saved whilst he was a Satanist in prison, 'a servant of Satan', and you have no idea of the weight of the thing you have said. I know Satan up close and personal Ohio. I once worshiped him in the open, in prison and controlled the other inmates by that means. You are completely mad. You are ignorant and you are simply not worth any more of my time. I do say The Lord Rebuke you Ohio. You are worthy of the rebuke.
03-22-2014 06:42 PM
Ohio
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amrkelly View Post
Genuine mockery is a real falsehood Mr Ohio. I am surprised that you cannot see it. How can it be possible that a man can do no more than deride a nation and be found to be a worker of Satan Mr Ohio? How can that be?

You call me friend. How is that possible? How is it possible for you to call me Friend? You have agreed with another to hate me with the worst possible accusation which can be spoken against a believer. You have not spoken against my nation, of which I care nothing, not even my possessions which are many, but my confidence in Christ, and you call me friend! How is that possible? When I said previously that Americans believe that they can say what they please do you still believe that I was wrong? Mr Ohio there is nothing you can say to me which is going to make a shred of difference to me. I came into this site with a clear message. Go and read it. It was addressed to you.

May the Lord Rebuke You Mr Ohio.
Kelly, you sure like to dish it out to others "in the name of the Lord," but when I mirror a little bit back at you, then your keyboard starts shaking.

Folks ... what's wrong with this picture?
Kelly begins to double quote me, but that is NOT mocking.
I triple quote Kelly in return, but that IS mocking?
Are you serious?

Listen Kelly, you said repeatedly that you came to this forum to "set snares for men's feet." So I quoted you scripture about doing Satan's work of setting snares for men. I was hoping that you might listen to God's word, since you obviously won't listen to anyone else.

Kelly, you are just an internet troll. You are a bully. You like to shovel your holy epithets at everyone else, expecting them to beg mercy, but when I shovel it back at you, then you throw a tantrum about getting your tightey whiteys soiled.

Like the Apostle Paul said, "Grow up, Be a man."
03-22-2014 06:32 PM
aron
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Igzy View Post
You didn't answer my question with many alternatives. If you had her story, how would you have told it?

Hsu said it plainly--for her the evidence was irrefutable. She acknowledged that the Chinese forced confessions and planted evidence, but to her the evidence still could not be denied. That was her opinion. Why you keep acting as if she didn't do this is a mystery.
Usually I don't respond so strongly, so I actually was puzzled myself and went back and read through the first 14 chapters again. I guess I mischaracterized it in my response. When I said “rubbish” and “trash” it seemed as if I were passing judgment on it and in that I was wrong. I apologize. What I should have said is that the book does nothing for me. “That which once I desired now I count as refuse.” Something like what I remember of Philippians 3:8.

I came here to earth to find Christ. Christ is the way home. If Hsu & Roberts find Christ in narrating her account, so be it. But my journey is clearly elsewhere. I should have just kept my mouth shut and my typewriter quiet. Ah well. Live and learn, as they say.
03-22-2014 06:11 PM
amrkelly
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
And now our friend Kelly has just discovered forum reverberation? reverberation? reverberation?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
And now our friend Kelly has just discovered forum reverberation? reverberation? reverberation?
Genuine mockery is a real falsehood Mr Ohio. I am surprised that you cannot see it. How can it be possible that a man can do no more than deride a nation and be found to be a worker of Satan Mr Ohio? How can that be?

You call me friend. How is that possible? How is it possible for you to call me Friend? You have agreed with another to hate me with the worst possible accusation which can be spoken against a believer. You have not spoken against my nation, of which I care nothing, not even my possessions which are many, but my confidence in Christ, and you call me friend! How is that possible? When I said previously that Americans believe that they can say what they please do you still believe that I was wrong? Mr Ohio there is nothing you can say to me which is going to make a shred of difference to me. I came into this site with a clear message. Go and read it. It was addressed to you.

May the Lord Rebuke You Mr Ohio.
03-22-2014 04:59 PM
Ohio
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amrkelly View Post
It does not concern me Mr Ohio that it would come to this and you would call me a worker of Satan.

It is an easy thing to repeat that which first appears by another man's mouth. Let it be pressed to its fullness Mr Ohio. Let it be pressed to its fullness.
Quote:
Originally Posted by amrkelly View Post
It does not concern me Mr Ohio that it would come to this and you would call me a worker of Satan.

It is an easy thing to repeat that which first appears by another man's mouth. Let it be pressed to its fullness Mr Ohio. Let it be pressed to its fullness.
Quote:
Originally Posted by amrkelly View Post
It does not concern me Mr Ohio that it would come to this and you would call me a worker of Satan.

It is an easy thing to repeat that which first appears by another man's mouth. Let it be pressed to its fullness Mr Ohio. Let it be pressed to its fullness.
And now our friend Kelly has just discovered forum reverberation? reverberation? reverberation?
03-22-2014 04:23 PM
Igzy
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
The book is a purported memoir. "My unforgettable memories", right? And these memories should inform us something of both the person, works, and possibly theology of Watchman Nee?

Yet I read that this young Christian woman saw a photo which she was told belonged to Nee. She believed the accusation. This tells us something of her gullibility, not something about Nee.

She said she idolized Nee and subsequently went into a psychological and spiritual tailspin. This tells us something about her but not about Nee.

She says she heard Nee confess in detail in the courtroom to the charges of immorality. In Chinese courtrooms "guilty" and "innocent" meant either confinement or hard labor. Yet Hsu pretends Nee's courtroom confession has meaning. She is either incredibly naïve or assumes we are.

It doesn't matter to me that she is a doctor. I have met very ignorant doctors in my life. Either she is obtuse or she thinks we are.

"As a former Local Church member, I'm stunned to learn the truth about Watchman Nee." Reading quotes like this (from an Amazon review) makes me sad. Have we learned nothing? We go from believing Lee to believing Hsu and Roberts.

It reminds me of a phrase from Isaiah 24:

And it shall be
That he who flees from the noise of the fear
Shall fall into the pit,
And he who comes up from the midst of the pit
Shall be caught in the snare;

You go from one entanglement to another. What a journey!
You didn't answer my question with many alternatives. If you had her story, how would you have told it? You haven't said how you would improve on her delivery except that she should have reminded people that Nee was probably pressed to confess something because he was between a rock and hard place. I think most people reading this book would realize that. It's not up to Hsu to lead the reader around.

You said the book told us nothing about Nee. Well, assuming she's not lying, it told me this: Nee had been sold to us (and her) as the ultimate sufferer for the truth. His willingness to sacrifice was legendary. He wouldn't even vindicate himself by telling people that accused him of living with a woman not his wife that the woman was actually his mother. That's how much he could care less for his own hide. This is how the LC portrayed Nee. Well, turns out Nee would bring shame on himself by confessing to a lie to avoid hard labor. That's a different Nee that we were sold. And that knowledge is valuable. The LC sold us this angelic Nee to further the myth of these MOTAs. So to me the book at least does that. It show Nee as something more mundane. Which if true is a good thing. The books explodes a myth that needed to be exploded. I say this IF the book is true.

Suppose the book told the same story, but with all the scholarly bells and whistles and caveats and so forth that you would like to see. Even with all the "I could be wrong" or "this was just my observation and I was emotionally rocked", etc, IT WOULD STILL TELL THE SAME STORY. The so-called facts about Nee would just be presented more palatable for you but the essence of them would remain the same.

I see value in the book because (1) it gives me details about the Little Flock that shows me that many of the major errors seen in the LC in the USA were already in place before Lee came to power, meaning they started with Nee. (2) it busts the myth that Nee had this wonderful thing going that Lee messed up, that Nee was very different from Lee in his approach to power. Actually, they were very similar and in fact Lee got his chops from Nee.


Hsu said it plainly--for her the evidence was irrefutable. She acknowledged that the Chinese forced confessions and planted evidence, but to her the evidence still could not be denied. That was her opinion. Why you keep acting as if she didn't do this is a mystery. You say you wouldn't have fallen for such evidence. But she was there and she did.

I don't think I'm gullible and weakminded. I think I am able to read an imperfect book and still read between the lines and get something out of it.
03-22-2014 03:26 PM
amrkelly
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Kelly, I would be little careful about doing the Devil's work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Kelly, I would be little careful about doing the Devil's work.

It does not concern me Mr Ohio that it would come to this and you would call me a worker of Satan.

It is an easy thing to repeat that which first appears by another man's mouth. Let it be pressed to its fullness Mr Ohio. Let it be pressed to its fullness.
03-22-2014 02:23 PM
Ohio
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amrkelly View Post
That may well be the kind of answer one would expect in a play ground Mr Ohio. It is far from the truth and I will be very happy to show it fully. That is what I do in life it is called setting snares for men's feet.
Kelly, I would be little careful about doing the Devil's work.

Quote:
That they may return to soberness out of the snare of the Devil, having being caught by him. -- 2 Tm 2.26
03-22-2014 02:15 PM
Ohio
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
And of course I'm speculating. That's pretty much all I do. I speculate, and the vast majority of it eventually dies by the wayside, and a tiny bit makes it further along. Some may be off-put by my seeming certitude, but that's simply how I write. I like to hang up sentences on a wire and see how well they hold together. Many of them don't hold well. And when someone like OBW comes along and shreds my ideas, that helps accelerate the process.
Well ... thanks aron ... personal speculations (my old LC "pastor" Philip Comfort would call them hunches) have great value in knowing God's word ... and ole' OBW has a way of shredding everyone's posts.
03-22-2014 01:01 PM
aron
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
There is nothing in the scriptures which states that Peter, James, and John did NOT properly learn this lesson via the Lord's verbal instructions to them and His brutal death at the hands of the Jewish and Roman rulers.

Peter and John's ambitions were cured long before the time Herod put James to death.
Well, yes and no. On the one hand they did learn a lot from Jesus. I didn't mean to imply that they ONLY learned the price of power when Herod made his gambit. Like that was their one "wow" moment. But it was surely a lesson.

And they didn't fully learn what they needed to know at one single point in the journey. Crucifixion and resurrection included. They (Peter, James, John, and others, beyond the 11 even - that's why I think Cleopas' 'we' in Luke 24 is so interesting) had lessons which continued beyond the cross. See for example, "Are you at this time restoring the kingdom to Israel" in Acts 1:6. What is the kingdom, and what is the Israel, that they are hoping for here, post-resurrection?

But I didn't mean to imply that they'd learned nothing about ambition, and then when Herod swung the axe and clamped the chain they learned everything.

And of course I'm speculating. That's pretty much all I do. I speculate, and the vast majority of it eventually dies by the wayside, and a tiny bit makes it further along. Some may be off-put by my seeming certitude, but that's simply how I write. I like to hang up sentences on a wire and see how well they hold together. Many of them don't hold well. And when someone like OBW comes along and shreds my ideas, that helps accelerate the process.
03-22-2014 12:56 PM
amrkelly
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Kelly,

You began insulting other posters when they disagreed with you. You never stopped. When they asked you to behave, you belittled them. Then you began with the nationality slurs. When others addressed that, you claimed we are "pressing our offense," and told us of how ignorant we all were to understand your British ways, and how we needed your "enlightenment." After all this you claim that I am "Personalizing my insults and my mockery on the other hand is offensive." When I address your condescending attitude, now you say I am mocking you.

Hello? Are you listening to yourself? Is anyone home?

Delusional is the word for you.

What would I do? Treat others with respect, you know, the Golden Rule.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Kelly,

You began insulting other posters when they disagreed with you. You never stopped. When they asked you to behave, you belittled them. Then you began with the nationality slurs. When others addressed that, you claimed we are "pressing our offense," and told us of how ignorant we all were to understand your British ways, and how we needed your "enlightenment." After all this you claim that I am "Personalizing my insults and my mockery on the other hand is offensive." When I address your condescending attitude, now you say I am mocking you.

Hello? Are you listening to yourself? Is anyone home?

Delusional is the word for you.

What would I do? Treat others with respect, you know, the Golden Rule.
That may well be the kind of answer one would expect in a play ground Mr Ohio. It is far from the truth and I will be very happy to show it fully. That is what I do in life it is called setting snares for mens feet.
03-22-2014 12:41 PM
Ohio
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amrkelly View Post
There are no high and lofty places Mr Ohio in what I have said. As always you select just a fews words which you imagine are insulting and you press your offence, even if you do feel that you have to appear to be indifferent. Where does the offence come from? It comes from ignorance of other peoples cultures. Thus enlightenment means what it has always meant. It means knowledge. To be enlightened. Or to be well informed. If therefore I say, Mr Ohio, that Americans are ignorant of British culture it is the same as saying most English people are ignorant of American culture. There is nothing odd about that and nothing mysterious in saying it. Nor is it offensive. Personalising your insults and mockery on the other hand is offensive.

I made the point before and you were all offended, I make it again and you are all offended. Yet it is a fact that most Americans appear to have a liking for that part of the British culture which they are aware of and most English people have a liking for that part of the American culture that they are aware of. In both cases it is pure ignorance.

When will you stop mocking me Mr Ohio? I ask myself that question. Ask yourself a question Mr Ohio if someone put into the subject line your true name and then listed various false assertions and went on to publicly call for your removal from a public place what would you say? There is good reason for this antagonism Mr Ohio and I will not be the one backing down. I know exactly what I am doing and I know why I am doing it. It may be best to simply ignore me as I have repeatedly asked you to do.
Kelly,

You began insulting other posters when they disagreed with you. You never stopped. When they asked you to behave, you belittled them. Then you began with the nationality slurs. When others addressed that, you claimed we are "pressing our offense," and told us of how ignorant we all were to understand your British ways, and how we needed your "enlightenment." After all this you claim that I am "Personalizing my insults and my mockery on the other hand is offensive." When I address your condescending attitude, now you say I am mocking you.

Hello? Are you listening to yourself? Is anyone home?

Delusional is the word for you.

What would I do? Treat others with respect, you know, the Golden Rule.
03-22-2014 12:05 PM
amrkelly
Re: Kelly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Thanks NeitherFirstnorLast,

It took a lot of courage and insight to write this, especially when you know that retaliation is on the way from across the pond ...
I will take that to be your answer then Mr Ohio. So be it!
03-22-2014 11:56 AM
Ohio
Re: Kelly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast View Post
I have (largely) stayed out of this "discussion" as I didn't want to lend credence to what it had become. Perhaps I should remain removed from it, but it's really taken on a life of it's own and more nearly resembles a circus sideshow than a healthy Christian dialogue.

Entertaining Kelly as a serious contributor to this Forum is, plainly speaking, unwise and unbiblical. He has stated in his very introduction that he is:

1) Gifted by the Spirit with great discernment.
2) Charged by God to make men stumble.
3) At a great cultural advantage over American members of this forum because his is a more enlightened society.
4) His aim is to prove that everything written by Hsu and or Roberts is false.

There is nothing in any of those statements you can use to suggest that Kelly is in anyway able to critically review Hsu and Roberts work. He has a conclusion based on his "Spiritual perception" and cemented by his superiority complex. He is incapable of empathy and considers it a Satanic trait. In short, this man is not at all Christ like and to treat him as a brother is dangerous. He is fractious, pugnatious, and giving him a platform to spew his vitriol is frankly allowing him to achieve exactly what he has set out to do: stumble men. He has been admonished not once, not twice, but several times over. What does the Bible tell you to do about such a man? I urge the Moderator to consider this.
Thanks NeitherFirstnorLast,

It took a lot of courage and insight to write this, especially when you know that retaliation is on the way from across the pond ...
03-22-2014 11:41 AM
Ohio
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
Yes I'm often dumbfounded and baffled. I hide it well ... me hopes. I admit, I'm not the sharpest spoon in the shed. But I'm comin along ... tryin to keep up.

Andrew has got me challenged ... bless his pea-pickin heart. He's helpin me along. He really does have a good heart. But it's like his British humor ... hidden ... methinks.
What good is a so-called "good heart" when he carries knives, axes, and swords for any who don't cower to him in awe.
03-22-2014 11:38 AM
Ohio
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
So my point was that the apostle John learned the price of temporal ambition, when his brother died, and Peter was next on the chopping block. And Peter learned, too: Peter's ambition to be "something" on earth got cured. His epistle clearly tells the leading brothers not to lord over the rest but to lead by example. Peter became very "sheep-like".
This is just speculation on aron's part. There is nothing in the scriptures which states that Peter, James, and John did NOT properly learn this lesson via the Lord's verbal instructions to them and His brutal death at the hands of the Jewish and Roman rulers.

Peter and John's ambitions were cured long before the time Herod put James to death.
03-22-2014 11:31 AM
awareness
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
yo bro awareness, don't you just love how these sublime orators visit this lowly forum to display their skills in all their grandeur to us struggling peons, who shake our heads wondering what high peak of lofty truths were just displayed before our eyes.
Yes I'm often dumbfounded and baffled. I hide it well ... me hopes. I admit, I'm not the sharpest spoon in the shed. But I'm comin along ... tryin to keep up.

Andrew has got me challenged ... bless his pea-pickin heart. He's helpin me along. He really does have a good heart. But it's like his British humor ... hidden ... methinks.
03-22-2014 11:29 AM
amrkelly
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
yo bro awareness, don't you just love how these sublime orators visit this lowly forum to display their skills in all their grandeur to us struggling peons, who shake our heads wondering what high peak of lofty truths were just displayed before our eyes.
There are no high and lofty places Mr Ohio in what I have said. As always you select just a fews words which you imagine are insulting and you press your offence, even if you do feel that you have to appear to be indifferent. Where does the offence come from? It comes from ignorance of other peoples cultures. Thus enlightenment means what it has always meant. It means knowledge. To be enlightened. Or to be well informed. If therefore I say, Mr Ohio, that Americans are ignorant of British culture it is the same as saying most English people are ignorant of American culture. There is nothing odd about that and nothing mysterious in saying it. Nor is it offensive. Personalising your insults and mockery on the other hand is offensive.

I made the point before and you were all offended, I make it again and you are all offended. Yet it is a fact that most Americans appear to have a liking for that part of the British culture which they are aware of and most English people have a liking for that part of the American culture that they are aware of. In both cases it is pure ignorance.

When will you stop mocking me Mr Ohio? I ask myself that question. Ask yourself a question Mr Ohio if someone put into the subject line your true name and then listed various false assertions and went on to publicly call for your removal from a public place what would you say? There is good reason for this antagonism Mr Ohio and I will not be the one backing down. I know exactly what I am doing and I know why I am doing it. It may be best to simply ignore me as I have repeatedly asked you to do.
03-22-2014 11:21 AM
aron
Divine fire

Bro Ohio,

Thanks for including me in the class of sublime orators.

And I don't worry about the 'grandeur' bit. God has ways to deal with that one. Believe me! God has ways.

Peace.
03-22-2014 11:03 AM
Ohio
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amrkelly View Post
Its one of those enlightened things. Do you know when I am jesting and when I am deadly serious? You have no means to differentiate. That too is to do with enlightenment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
You want to grab the brass ring in this age, it's going to burn you. Nee & Lee never learned.
Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
I'm sorry I'm so dumb bro aron. Please forgive my ignorance. All y'all seem so much smarter than I. That's one reason I'm here. To learn from y'all.
yo bro awareness, don't you just love how these sublime orators visit this lowly forum to display their skills in all their grandeur to us struggling peons, who shake our heads wondering what high peak of lofty truths were just displayed before our eyes.
03-22-2014 10:55 AM
awareness
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
See Mark 9:34 and Luke 22:24. See also Matthew 20:21. In these verses it shows clearly that the disciples had ambitions. But it was earthly, and temporal ambition, according to their fallen ideas of what power really was.

And in Matthew 21:9, when the crowds shouted "Hosanna to the Son of David" they thought that this guy Jesus was going to kick that pretender Idumean (i.e. Edomite) Herod and his Roman cronies out of Jerusalem and restore the kingdom. They didn't understand what was going on. They couldn't comprehend that the kingdom of Jesus is not of this world.

When one of the two disciples at the roadside, going to Emmaus, said, "but we had hoped that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel." (Luke 24:21) he was speaking of redemption on temporal, political terms. Those who were hoping, whom Cleopas was speaking for, did not understand the spiritual realm at all, and what was occurring.

So my point was that the apostle John learned the price of ambition for earthly position, when his brother died, and Peter was next on the chopping block. And Peter learned, too: Peter's ambition to be "something" on earth got cured. His epistle clearly tells the leading brothers not to lord over others but to lead by example. This is very "sheep-like".

Therefore, I was saying that John and Peter learned that ambition in this age is a deadly fire. And I was saying that Nee and Lee never learned, or at least not until it had brought them and countless others to ruin. That was my comparison; not that both groups were apostles.
Thanks aron. I think I get it now. You're saying that even the great founders of Christianity fell prey to ambition ... and Nee and Lee didn't learn that lesson. Right?

Mind if I comment on this? :
Quote:
Originally Posted by aron
they thought that this guy Jesus was going to kick that pretender Idumean (i.e. Edomite) Herod and his Roman cronies out of Jerusalem and restore the kingdom. They didn't understand what was going on. They couldn't comprehend that the kingdom of Jesus is not of this world.
You are right that back in those days there was a strong yearning, expectation, and belief, that God was gonna intervene, kick the Romans out of the promise land, and establish His kingdom on earth.

And those of that yearning were disappointed, and are still waiting. Cuz Jesus failed to meet the requirements of their expected messiah.
03-22-2014 10:50 AM
aron
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
And I was saying that Nee and Lee never learned from John and Peter's experiences, or they didn't understand until it had brought them and countless others into ruin.
Let me put it another way: Nee wanted power, and the Communists also wanted power. Guess who won?
03-22-2014 10:25 AM
aron
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
I'm not following bro aron. Are you likening Nee's political demise to that of Peter, James, and John? Are you considering Nee up there with them; the apostle of the age?
See Mark 9:34 and Luke 22:24. See also Matthew 20:21. In these verses it shows clearly that the disciples had ambitions. But it was earthly, and temporal ambition, according to their fallen ideas of what power was.

And in Matthew 21:9, when the crowds shouted "Hosanna to the Son of David", they thought that Jesus was going to kick the Idumean (i.e. Edomite) Herod and his Roman cronies out of Jerusalem and restore the dynastic kingdom. They had no idea what was going on. They couldn't possibly comprehend that the kingdom of Jesus is not of this world.

And when one of the two disciples on the road leading to Emmaus said, "but we had hoped that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel" (Luke 24:21) he was speaking of a redemption on temporal, political terms. Those who were hoping, whom Cleopas spoke for, did not understand the spiritual realm at all, and what was occurring. How can you hope for something that you don't realize exists?

So my point was that the apostle John learned the price of temporal ambition, when his brother died, and Peter was next on the chopping block. And Peter learned, too: Peter's ambition to be "something" on earth got cured. His epistle clearly tells the leading brothers not to lord over the rest but to lead by example. Peter became very "sheep-like".

Therefore, I was positing that John and Peter learned that ambition in this age is a deadly fire. And I was saying that Nee and Lee never learned from John and Peter's experiences, or they didn't understand until it had brought them and countless others into ruin. That was my comparison; not that both groups were composed of apostles.
03-22-2014 10:13 AM
awareness
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
You know what I find ironic about Nee? He set himself up to be top dog. And the Chinese communists, being politically savvy, knew that they could "kill the head and the body will die". Nee had something like 70,000 believers following him. So the Communists put on a show trial, railroaded him, and imploded his movement (and if you want motive, today, for Hsu/Roberts' work, look how Nee is lionized and deified by his acolytes. Surely the same motive exists today as in the 1950s. It's euphemistically called 'big game hunting').

Just like with Peter and James and John, who were top dogs in the Jesus group. Herod knew this. Why do you think he cut off James' head with a sword? Then he grabbed Peter to do the same. These were not random acts. They were political acts. I think the apostle John learned something when his brother died and Peter got nabbed. You want to grab the brass ring in this age, it's going to burn you.

Nee & Lee never learned.
I'm not following bro aron. Are you likening Nee's political demise to that of Peter, James, and John? Are you considering Nee up there with them; the apostle of the age?

I'm sorry I'm so dumb bro aron. Please forgive my ignorance. All y'all seem so much smarter than I. That's one reason I'm here. To learn from y'all.
03-22-2014 10:00 AM
aron
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

You know what I find ironic about Nee? He set himself up to be top dog. And the Chinese communists, being politically savvy, knew that they could "kill the head and the body will die". Nee had something like 70,000 believers following him. So the Communists put on a show trial, railroaded him, and imploded his movement (and if you want motive, today, for Hsu/Roberts' work, look how Nee is lionized and deified by his acolytes. Surely the same motive exists today as in the 1950s. It's euphemistically called 'big game hunting').

Just like with Peter and James and John, who were top dogs in the Jesus group. Herod knew this. Why do you think he cut off James' head with a sword? Then he grabbed Peter to do the same. These were not random acts. They were political acts. I think the apostle John learned something when his brother died and Peter got nabbed. You want to grab the brass ring in this age, it's going to burn you.

Nee & Lee never learned.
03-22-2014 09:51 AM
amrkelly
Re: Kelly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast View Post
I have (largely) stayed out of this "discussion" as I didn't want to lend credence to what it had become. Perhaps I should remain removed from it, but it's really taken on a life of it's own and more nearly resembles a circus sideshow than a healthy Christian dialogue.

Entertaining Kelly as a serious contributor to this Forum is, plainly speaking, unwise and unbiblical. He has stated in his very introduction that he is:

1) Gifted by the Spirit with great discernment.
2) Charged by God to make men stumble.
3) At a great cultural advantage over American members of this forum because his is a more enlightened society.
4) His aim is to prove that everything written by Hsu and or Roberts is false.


There is nothing in any of those statements you can use to suggest that Kelly is in anyway able to critically review Hsu and Roberts work. He has a conclusion based on his "Spiritual perception" and cemented by his superiority complex. He is incapable of empathy and considers it a Satanic trait. In short, this man is not at all Christ like and to treat him as a brother is dangerous. He is fractious, pugnatious, and giving him a platform to spew his vitriol is frankly allowing him to achieve exactly what he has set out to do: stumble men. Hehas been admonished not once, not twice, but several times over. What does the Bible tell you to do about such a man? I urge the Moderator to consider this.
That's a nice balanced statement. What I actually said was that I have a ministry of setting snares for mens feet. Which is not the same as saying I am charged by God to make men stumble. I realise that you clearly cannot see the difference but there we are then.

No man can be of himself an enlightened society. But if you are asking me if I believe that British society is more enlightened than American society I will have to politely decline to comment. It's naughty.

Gifted by the Spirit with great discernment would be a singular advantage in knowing whether there is any falsehood in something or not. As for whether that reflects on the critical faculty of the mind would really be down to whether you actually understand what you have discerned. Discernment isn't a book of directions. It's a rod of measuring. Or if you want to put into more friendly English it is a gift.

My aim is to prove that which is false in this book. Quiet correct! Thats not the same as saying that my aim is to prove the whole book is false. But then you would have to really know the difference between false and fake to make sense of that.

Thank you so much for impugning me by name in a public place. One day you may well be able to differentiate between a man and a nation. I hate America I love Americans. I hate France. I hate the French (Thats because Im British). All men who make a claim to England have a sacred duty to hate the French. It goes back to 1066. Its one of those enlightened things. Do you know when I am jesting and when I am deadly serious? You have no means to differentiate. That too is to do with enlightenment.
03-22-2014 09:50 AM
aron
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
Dr. Hsu's book strikes me as honest. At least more honest than Witness Lee's account ; another bewitcher.

Who has bewitched you bro aron?
I never liked this book from jump. That was before Kelly showed up. I like it even less the more I look at it. It is a thinly disguised accusation. It is an attempt to sway the reader with "truth". Those with itching ears and gullible minds, will get blown over by it.

As OBW wrote earlier, we don't need Hsu/Roberts to know there were serious issues with Nee. Hsu/Roberts may add some ancillary things to the discussion, but of itself it is either a distraction at best or a stumbling at worst.

I have probably been a little overheated in my rhetoric but I suppose it was because it seemed to me that Hsu/Roberts needed a blunt, critical assessment. If I have been unchristian in my writing I apologize. I wanted to make sure that I was making my point. Whether anyone agrees or gets anything from it is of course irrelevant. I just wanted the satisfaction of knowing that I had made an effort to be, as Kelly puts it, "plain".
03-22-2014 09:39 AM
aron
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Igzy View Post
You don't think there is anything true or of value in this book? ... Let's assume that the basic story Hsu has to tell is true. How should she have written the book that would have suited you?
The book is a purported memoir. "My unforgettable memories", right? And these memories should inform us something of both the person, works, and possibly theology of Watchman Nee?

Yet I read that this young Christian woman saw a photo which she was told belonged to Nee. She believed the accusation. This tells us something of her gullibility, not something about Nee.

She said she idolized Nee and subsequently went into a psychological and spiritual tailspin. This tells us something about her but not about Nee.

She says she heard Nee confess in detail in the courtroom to the charges of immorality. In Chinese courtrooms "guilty" and "innocent" meant either confinement or hard labor. Yet Hsu pretends Nee's courtroom confession has meaning. She is either incredibly naïve or assumes we are.

It doesn't matter to me that she is a doctor. I have met very ignorant doctors in my life. Either she is obtuse or she thinks we are.

"As a former Local Church member, I'm stunned to learn the truth about Watchman Nee." Reading quotes like this (from an Amazon review) makes me sad. Have we learned nothing? We go from believing Lee to believing Hsu and Roberts.

It reminds me of a phrase from Isaiah 24:

And it shall be
That he who flees from the noise of the fear
Shall fall into the pit,
And he who comes up from the midst of the pit
Shall be caught in the snare;

You go from one entanglement to another. What a journey!
03-22-2014 09:35 AM
awareness
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
Her testimony is of witnessing the Chinese kangaroo-court justice system. Yet she acts as if it were definitive. She is either ignorant or deceptive.
Without looking it up, or citation, I remember reading that she was well aware of the communist tactics, but Nee's public trial didn't strike her that way. In fact, it was so convincing to her, and the let down so hard, that she left the faith.

I can't speak for the evidence, but something about it had impact on many there back then. And Nee was excommunicated, a second time, by those believing the evidence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron
Roberts is worse. If you Google "Dana Roberts Watchman Nee" he is repeatedly referenced as a scholar, engaging in scholarship, and being a Watchman Nee scholar. But this output is anything but scholarly. It is a cheap hatchet job.
I agree the scholarship isn't up to snuff. But it is called "My Unforgettable Memories" for a reason. It's a testimony.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron
What would have suited me? Her experiences are perhaps true. But her assessment of the ministry of Nee is less than worthless; it is deceptive.
Well the final conclusion of the book is that Nee going to jail was God's judgment. That makes Nee a spiritual predator.

And after coming out of the local church, and going thru a period of deprogramming of my mind, I'm inclined to believe that conclusion.

Nee now looks to me like a bewitcher.

And Dr. Hsu's book strikes me as honest. At least more honest than Witness Lee's account ; another bewitcher.

Who has bewitched you bro aron?
03-22-2014 09:30 AM
NeitherFirstnorLast
Kelly.

I have (largely) stayed out of this "discussion" as I didn't want to lend credence to what it had become. Perhaps I should remain removed from it, but it's really taken on a life of it's own and more nearly resembles a circus sideshow than a healthy Christian dialogue.

Entertaining Kelly as a serious contributor to this Forum is, plainly speaking, unwise and unbiblical. He has stated in his very introduction that he is:

1) Gifted by the Spirit with great discernment.
2) Charged by God to make men stumble.
3) At a great cultural advantage over American members of this forum because his is a more enlightened society.
4) His aim is to prove that everything written by Hsu and or Roberts is false.


There is nothing in any of those statements you can use to suggest that Kelly is in anyway able to critically review Hsu and Roberts work. He has a conclusion based on his "Spiritual perception" and cemented by his superiority complex. He is incapable of empathy and considers it a Satanic trait. In short, this man is not at all Christ like and to treat him as a brother is dangerous. He is fractious, pugnatious, and giving him a platform to spew his vitriol is frankly allowing him to achieve exactly what he has set out to do: stumble men. Hehas been admonished not once, not twice, but several times over. What does the Bible tell you to do about such a man? I urge the Moderator to consider this.
03-22-2014 07:47 AM
awareness
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amrkelly View Post
It may well be purposeful Igzy but it is scarcely misleading. I haven't said what I believe may be the significance of the publication I have now e-mailed to Harold.
Yes, and even tho he's now shared what he could with me he's still holding on what he concludes the significance of it is.

To catch you up so far here's the source he claims is possibly the first mention of rape against Nee :

Religion under Socialism in China
http://books.google.com/books?id=cEf...&q=nee&f=false

The book was published in English in 1990. The research for the book was a few years before.

Google, trying to sell this expensive book, only provides clips of the book. But on the left of the page you can search the book. If you put in "raped" or "Nee" you'll find a reference to Nee on page 59. It says "Ni raped numerous women." It also calls him mean and unprincipled.

Kelly admits it would be foolish to jump to conclusions concerning this, but it is a written reference to Nee and rape.

My question is, did Hsu/Roberts draw their story of Nee and rape from this source? There's no indicator they did.

But we gotta give it to Andrew, he's certainly pulling info out of the woodwork.
03-21-2014 09:36 PM
Elden1971
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amrkelly View Post
I have thought about this post of your Igzy for several hours and I feel I have to reply and make my position absolutely clear.

Whilst I do not despise sentiment or personal circumstance I have no intention of involving myself in either of these two things if that means endlessly discussing any issue which is indirectly related to the book itself.

That may mean any issue at all, but is may specifically be more pertinent to speak of the MOTO issue.

I made my last post about myself primarily to show that it is an easy thing to connect with people. All one has to do is express that which broadly correlates to others personal experiences. Personal experience in the end has no bearing on this book no matter how strongly we may feel about it.

If you or anyone else for that matter, insists in making subjective and personal allusions suggesting that what I am doing is irrelevant because I will not participate in that process, then I will have no choice but to either disregard the comment or else directly post against it in such a way that I make my position clear.

I do not accept instructions on how I should participate in this forum or any other forum beyond the parameters set by the moderator. I will in all circumstances follow the moderators advise. What I will not do is walk into a snare which amounts to no more than constantly debating points which have no end to them.

I will continue to post independently, as far as possible, those points or material facts which attend to my personal ambition. I have no belief that I can benefit from further understanding how cults work or how certain doctrines attend to the effect of spiritual abuse, and therefore I see no reason to participate in such discussions. This is my personal choice and I won't be moved from this position.

Lastly, when I do post what one might refer to as a linguistic contract, intending to draw attention to inconsistencies in the forensic text of the book, no one should make assumptions as to what that means beyond the objectivity of that presentation. I can confirm that I have not expressed my personal view on any part of this book. If by personal view I mean that which I believe to be true or false, then that can be taken as a personal view regardless as to how the argument appears to flow. When I use the word false it may not necessary mean a lie. Nor can such a term mean that I am calling a person a liar. False or true is not a matter of a persons determination to lie. Someone who lies is simply a liar. Something which is false may be held to be true by the originator of the falsehood.

We cannot endlessly go round in circles in life taking the attitude that every persons opinion is valid and true, simply because every person may also be false as well. To take that position is no more than to arrive at philosophical relativism. This route to knowledge will always find its growth in common ground and the crowd becomes the standard of what is true and what is false. Experience is not the true arbiter of truth. Nor is the majority opinion the truth.

It is not a matter of being Judge, Jury or executioner. None of those apply to what I want to achieve. When I do post my own personal beliefs no one will doubt that I believe what I am writing. Until then it may be simply best not to make assumptions about what I am about. Taking your car to pieces may be more to do with trying to repair it than destroy it. Similarly taking this book to pieces in order to separate that which is false from that which is true may not mean that their is no truth in the book. The obvious honesty is to say that I believe it to be largely false.
Those of us who knew Nee's ministry, family, co-workers, elders for close to 50 years respectfully disagree with your conclusion. We will continue to pray for you and your family as we do for all members of the Body of Christ. Our oneness is in Christ and nothing can ever separate us from His Love. Even so come Lord Jesus.
03-21-2014 07:33 PM
amrkelly
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Igzy View Post
Fair enough. (We actually said "fair enough" at the same time. I didn't copy you.) Just realize you are not sole judge, jury and executioner. You are just one more voice in the chorus of folks trying to make sense of Nee. None has preeminence. Say your peace, say it with verve, and be prepared for opposition with something that you won't be ashamed of. Fight the good fight. Give us credit for doing the same. Shake hands afterwards.
I have thought about this post of your Igzy for several hours and I feel I have to reply and make my position absolutely clear.

Whilst I do not despise sentiment or personal circumstance I have no intention of involving myself in either of these two things if that means endlessly discussing any issue which is indirectly related to the book itself.

That may mean any issue at all, but is may specifically be more pertinent to speak of the MOTO issue.

I made my last post about myself primarily to show that it is an easy thing to connect with people. All one has to do is express that which broadly correlates to others personal experiences. Personal experience in the end has no bearing on this book no matter how strongly we may feel about it.

If you or anyone else for that matter, insists in making subjective and personal allusions suggesting that what I am doing is irrelevant because I will not participate in that process, then I will have no choice but to either disregard the comment or else directly post against it in such a way that I make my position clear.

I do not accept instructions on how I should participate in this forum or any other forum beyond the parameters set by the moderator. I will in all circumstances follow the moderators advise. What I will not do is walk into a snare which amounts to no more than constantly debating points which have no end to them.

I will continue to post independently, as far as possible, those points or material facts which attend to my personal ambition. I have no belief that I can benefit from further understanding how cults work or how certain doctrines attend to the effect of spiritual abuse, and therefore I see no reason to participate in such discussions. This is my personal choice and I won't be moved from this position.

Lastly, when I do post what one might refer to as a linguistic contract, intending to draw attention to inconsistencies in the forensic text of the book, no one should make assumptions as to what that means beyond the objectivity of that presentation. I can confirm that I have not expressed my personal view on any part of this book. If by personal view I mean that which I believe to be true or false, then that can be taken as a personal view regardless as to how the argument appears to flow. When I use the word false it may not necessary mean a lie. Nor can such a term mean that I am calling a person a liar. False or true is not a matter of a persons determination to lie. Someone who lies is simply a liar. Something which is false may be held to be true by the originator of the falsehood.

We cannot endlessly go round in circles in life taking the attitude that every persons opinion is valid and true, simply because every person may also be false as well. To take that position is no more than to arrive at philosophical relativism. This route to knowledge will always find its growth in common ground and the crowd becomes the standard of what is true and what is false. Experience is not the true arbiter of truth. Nor is the majority opinion the truth.

It is not a matter of being Judge, Jury or executioner. None of those apply to what I want to achieve. When I do post my own personal beliefs no one will doubt that I believe what I am writing. Until then it may be simply best not to make assumptions about what I am about. Taking your car to pieces may be more to do with trying to repair it than destroy it. Similarly taking this book to pieces in order to separate that which is false from that which is true may not mean that their is no truth in the book. The obvious honesty is to say that I believe it to be largely false.
03-21-2014 07:29 PM
aron
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Igzy View Post
I really don't like statements like this. They just seem more bluster than anything else. You don't think there is anything true or of value in this book?

Let me ask you. Let's assume that the basic story Hsu has to tell is true. How should she have written the book that would have suited you?
I was more circumspect before, but people seemed to either miss my point, or ignore it. So I became more blunt.

Her testimony is of witnessing the Chinese kangaroo-court justice system. Yet she acts as if it were definitive. She is either ignorant or deceptive.

Roberts is worse. If you Google "Dana Roberts Watchman Nee" he is repeatedly referenced as a scholar, engaging in scholarship, and being a Watchman Nee scholar. But this output is anything but scholarly. It is a cheap hatchet job.

What would have suited me? Her experiences are perhaps true. But her assessment of the ministry of Nee is less than worthless; it is deceptive.

Here is a review from Amazon.com.

"As a former Local Church member, I'm stunned to learn the truth about Watchman Nee."

I grant that the book is effective if it produces such a response. But it no more presents us with the truth than did the output of Witness Lee. The fact that thousands of people have bought Lee's biography of Nee doesn't make it true. Nor does the fact that most of its readers believe it.

I dunno. Sorry I can't do better. It is just a cheap hatchet job: "A crude or ruthless effort usually ending in destruction." Or distraction.
03-21-2014 05:20 PM
Igzy
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amrkelly View Post
Igzy I haven't been angry once in this whole process. I have fallen of my chair laughing more times than I can remember. Don't confuse plain speech with anger. ...

So don't rush me brother. I am doing a sterling British job, not a drug crazed demolition.
Fair enough. (We actually said "fair enough" at the same time. I didn't copy you.) Just realize you are not sole judge, jury and executioner. You are just one more voice in the chorus of folks trying to make sense of Nee. None has preeminence. Say your peace, say it with verve, and be prepared for opposition with something that you won't be ashamed of. Fight the good fight. Give us credit for doing the same. Shake hands afterwards.
03-21-2014 05:17 PM
amrkelly
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Igzy View Post
That sucks. I hate stories like that. I'm very sorry for your suffering at the hands of other Christians. We have to trust that it will all mean something. Everyone on this board has gone through something like that, some kind of intense suffering, at the hands of the Church. Yet, here we are. Believers!

Jesus suffered not only at the hands of his fellow Jews, but of his own creation. Amazing! I still have young sons, and I consider Jesus as a boy. And I think, there was a day when Jesus, as a young boy, first played with a puppy! What a delight that must have been! He created boys and he created puppies, and there he was experiencing what he had created to happen. Yet, that wasn't why he came. He came to suffer at the hands of his own creation. And he did, for our sake. Sin is still in the world and the principle remains for us. Sometimes we severely suffer at the hands of the ones who are supposed to love us. Yet, we are to love in return. This is how we can be like our Father.

Kelly, I appreciate your bringing facts to our attention. I wish you would let us come to our own conclusions about what those facts add up to. We also know facts that you don't. We can help each other. There is disagreement about what they mean. Don't you think God is capable of leading each of us into the truth about what that actually is, without all the strife and rancor and put downs? I know we are going to clash, but let's at least be halfway friendly about it. Someone might be watching.
That's fair enough Igzy.

I rang this pastor before he died to speak with him and I so wanted to talk to him about the effect he had had on me. In the circumstances I could hardly have done that. In the end somehow I shared in such a way that something twigged in his mind. He said I had absolutely no idea that you were even bothered. I left it at that. He was being completely sincere. I said to my wife how is that possible. I sought him out for four years. How could he have not known I was seeking a return. I never once doubted his sincerity and I never once doubted his faithfulness and love for the Lord. He was a very good pastor and led many people to the Lord. The reasons for my experience were not unique I knew why they existed and I learned to trust in the Lord's sovereignty, but it took four years to learn how to do that and make sense of the Lord's purposes in it.
03-21-2014 05:13 PM
Igzy
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
I am simply saying the Hsu/Roberts book is rubbish. Period.
I really don't like statements like this. They just seem more bluster than anything else. You don't think there is anything true or of value in this book?

Let me ask you. Let's assume that the basic story Hsu has to tell is true. How should she have written the book that would have suited you?
03-21-2014 05:10 PM
amrkelly
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Igzy View Post
And you know in your heart you can't do that, because it happened too long ago and there are not enough real witnesses and evidence to "prove" anything. So you get angry at common folks like us who poke holes in any of your theses, because you know your case is weak, and that frustrates the heck out of you. If you had confidence, you'd just calmly let the facts speak. But they don't because everything at this point is hearsay and opinion. It comes down to whom one chooses to believe, and that comes to down to a lot of subjective things, like beliefs and experiences and interpretations, and, let's be honest, what we want to believe.

I'll admit your research is impressive. My hat's off to you for the hard work you've done. But you've piled up a lot of papers that you know in your heart don't amount to the case you hope it will. Because if you really had a strong case, you wouldn't be reacting to we peons here with the anger you do. Superciliousness is a sign of weakness, not strength. So keep up the research, bro. You're going to need a lot more papers, and your intangibles thus far manifest are not going to make up for their lack.
Igzy I haven't been angry once in this whole process. I have fallen of my chair laughing more times than I can remember. Don't confuse plain speech with anger. Have you ever considered what it might be like when the executioner appears into sight. The rope, the hood, the drop three seconds and its over. From seeing the man to death. Where is his anger? Just because he does his job well does not make him angry. But see what happens if the condemned man decides to fight. The executioner has all the authority to break him into submission and hang him anyway.

It's a very British picture really. We were the world experts at hanging men. That's why the War Crimes Tribunals took a British Hangman as their preferred choice to hand over seven hundred men and women for their crimes against humanity after the second world war. What they were looking for was swift justice. A long trial, but swift justice. That's called mercy.

So don't rush me brother. I am doing a sterling British job, not a drug crazed demolition.
03-21-2014 05:00 PM
Igzy
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amrkelly View Post
For four years I sought to find fellowship once again only to be resisted by the pastor and one other elder. The irony was that I was meeting with three of the elders privately and leading bible studies. After four years I thought to myself well if I have left of my own volition I can return of my own volition. So I went into the meeting and sat down at the back of the church. The pastor walked the full length of the Church purposefully shook my hand and then walked back to the front. That was that. What he couldn't have known was in the interim I had been given a son who was severally disabled and the four years had been a complete hell for my family.
That sucks. I hate stories like that. I'm very sorry for your suffering at the hands of other Christians. We have to trust that it will all mean something. Everyone on this board has gone through something like that, some kind of intense suffering, at the hands of the Church. Yet, here we are. Believers!

Jesus suffered not only at the hands of his fellow Jews, but of his own creation. Amazing! I still have young sons, and I consider Jesus as a boy. And I think, there was a day when Jesus, as a young boy, first played with a puppy! What a delight that must have been! He created boys and he created puppies, and there he was experiencing what he had created to happen. Yet, that wasn't why he came. He came to suffer at the hands of his own creation. And he did, for our sake. Sin is still in the world and the principle remains for us. Sometimes we severely suffer at the hands of the ones who are supposed to love us. Yet, we are to love in return. This is how we can be like our Father.

Kelly, I appreciate your bringing facts to our attention. I wish you would let us come to our own conclusions about what those facts add up to. We also know facts that you don't. We can help each other. There is disagreement about what they mean. Don't you think God is capable of leading each of us into the truth about what that actually is, without all the strife and rancor and put downs? I know we are going to clash, but let's at least be halfway friendly about it. Someone might be watching.
03-21-2014 04:37 PM
aron
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OBW View Post
First, you have avoided the issue by throwing out the "so many charged with crimes" card. So? Does it make whatever crimes Nee may have committed null and void?

You (and Kelly) have jumped from "the communists charged many" to "therefore the charges are invalid." From "there was no forcible rape" to "therefore nothing happened."
I said that the "confession" that Hsu says she witnessed means nothing. Nothing. I explained why.

I did not say Nee was innocent. I said Hsu's supposed eyewitness, which is the title of the book and the snare to lure the unwary into reading it, is specious.

I don't know her motives. I don't care. Her claim of being an eyewitness to anything serious is ridiculous. Roberts the so-called scholar is her co-conspirator here. To what designed end I don't know or care.

I didn't say anything about rape. I don't know what Kelly is doing nor do I care. I am simply saying the Hsu/Roberts book is rubbish. Period.

And I notice that whenever I bring this simple point up people look elsewhere. As if it were irrelevant. The subject at hand is a book by Lily Hsu and Dana Roberts. Something about unforgettable memories, and an eyewitness account of Watchman Nee. Something like that. The book is trash.
03-21-2014 04:31 PM
aron
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OBW View Post
Actually, don't even need Hsu's book to dispose of Nee and his teachings. His rotten teachings speak for themselves.
My point on this thread is simple. Hsu/Roberts did a rotten job and the "eyewitness" thing is rubbish.

Hsu saw a photograph. Someone told her it belonged to Nee. She later (as a witness for the prosecution, I guess) was a witness to Nee confessing to charges of immorality.

From there to the expulsion by the SCA elders and horror of all and sundry.

Did Hsu/Roberts mention that Nee had two choices: plead innocent and get hard labor or plead guilty and get confinement? Did anyone stop and think that nobody could plead innocent to any benefit at all? No? Instead I read posts that "Nee confessed. There: he is guilty. He said it himself." And when I bring up the sham Chinese legal process they change the topic and go on to something else.

I would like to know how many people in China in the years 1950 to 1960 pled innocent to charges, held a defence, convinced the magistrates of the wrongness of them, and walked away free. How many?

Hsu is aware of this. So is Roberts. But they don't mention this. Why?

"A European missionary described his interrogation before a tribunal in the prison where he was being held in 1953: 'The judge said to me: If you have been arrested, it is not without reason... It is certain that you are guilty.' To protest one's innocence was to defy the government."

Gelatt, TA. The People's Republic of China and the Presumption of Innocence. The Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology 1973. p. 268.

Yet Hsu/Roberts makes hay of her "witness" of Nee's "confession". And so do the posters here, until I point out where this confession emerged. Then they change the subject, looking for "guilt" elsewhere.

I imagine it's possible that Nee did many bad things. But the Hsu/Roberts book is rubbish. That is the issue at hand here. We all know it but if someone points it out we change the topic, back to Nee the bad guy, his bad teachings and the horror of the local churches in the USA.
03-21-2014 04:04 PM
OBW
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
The only thing Hsu was an eyewitness to was the sham Chinese judicial process, and the hysteria that followed it. Period.

It's like saying that I was an eyewitness of the crowd chanting, "Crucify! Crucify! We have no king but Caesar!" Does that mean that I can now prove that Jesus was guilty as charged? Wake up. I can see why Kelly is so exasperated with this conversation. The book is a farce and so is this thread.

Here is an idea. Consider how many thousands, perhaps tens of thousands of people were charged with crimes in China in the 1950s. Okay? Now, consider how many pled innocent, fought the charges successfully in court and got released. How many? Maybe someone can please come up with some numbers here. That would be very interesting to see.

Did Nee get subjected to anything even remotely resembling a fair trial? No? Then why all the hysteria and hoopla? Maybe because we like hysteria and hoopla? I really don't know.
First, you have avoided the issue by throwing out the "so many charged with crimes" card. So? Does it make whatever crimes Nee may have committed null and void?

You (and Kelly) have jumped from "the communists charged many" to "therefore the charges are invalid." From "there was no forcible rape" to "therefore nothing happened." The soft definition used of rape was evident from the very beginning. Either that or the Chinese have a funny notion of what is an affair (and aggravated rape qualifies). Since I don't buy that, then we are clearly dealing with a possible over-application of the word.

So try this. Everywhere you see the word "rape," change it to say something that is more like "carried on a sexual relationship with." Does that make Nee's problems go away?

(And is the book entirely about his sexual sins?)

When was Nee married? And for how long — until he died or at least near that time? How many of these events occurred during his marriage? Forget arguing about why is wife didn't leave him. She wouldn't even pick papers off the floor unless he told her to. (He bragged about that.) In their world, she was little more than a slave no matter how much love there may have been claimed, or actually was at some point.

I mean, Kelly put the quote in about Nee taking the naked photograph and then keeping it for many years thereafter. He acknowledges that it is true. He can only rant about the trial and the word "rape." But he is not disputing the ongoing position of immorality that Nee put himself into. Despite his feeble requests for forgiveness, he can't part with the picture. So he doesn't even make a full confession to God. He just makes an outward one to the sister.

Still he pines for the leeks and garlic of Nee. He thinks so highly of his spiritual father that he would ignore that the man wasn't fit to be much more than any of us — a sinner saved by grace. But not a spiritual father. Or a teacher.

Somehow Paul's charges about how to spot bad teachers and charlatans does not apply to Nee.

You don't need a charge of rape. Just a relationship in which he was free to take a nude picture of a sister in Christ, then keep it until it was discovered by the Communists years later. The guy was mentally brilliant. But that is spiritually irrelevant. That he managed to piece together what some have considered "wonderful teachings" is of no consequence if he shouldn't have opened his mouth to speak them in the first place.

Actually, don't even need Hsu's book to dispose of Nee and his teachings. His rotten teachings speak for themselves. Do the thorough study of the Bible (that Lee said you needed to do to follow his God's Economy doctrine) and you will find Nee and Lee seriously lacking. Of course, when so many of us do just that, we start with the understanding that whatever they said was simply true. That "power" really should be reworded to be authority (for example), or Paul's letter to Timothy really did say to teach God's Economy (it did not). And without those two, so much of the teachings of both Nee and Lee come tumbling down.

Won't need to learn about how immoral Nee was. or corrupt Lee was in his business dealings.
03-21-2014 03:58 PM
Igzy
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amrkelly View Post
My stated aim is to take this BOOK to pieces and prove by no less a means than the book itself invokes, that it is false.
And you know in your heart you can't do that, because it happened too long ago and there are not enough real witnesses and evidence to "prove" anything. So you get angry at common folks like us who poke holes in any of your theses, because you know your case is weak, and that frustrates the heck out of you. If you had confidence, you'd just calmly let the facts speak. But they don't because everything at this point is hearsay and opinion. It comes down to whom one chooses to believe, and that comes to down to a lot of subjective things, like beliefs and experiences and interpretations, and, let's be honest, what we want to believe.

I'll admit your research is impressive. My hat's off to you for the hard work you've done. But you've piled up a lot of papers that you know in your heart don't amount to the case you hope it will. Because if you really had a strong case, you wouldn't be reacting to we peons here with the anger you do. Superciliousness is a sign of weakness, not strength. So keep up the research, bro. You're going to need a lot more papers, and your intangibles thus far manifest are not going to make up for their lack.
03-21-2014 03:46 PM
amrkelly
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Igzy View Post
Very contrived, purposefully misleading, and it continues to brush aside the points I've made. Which are:

(1) Your plan to "prove" that rape in regards to Nee was not mentioned before the Communists would prove much less that you hoped. (Shh. Don't tell anyone and shut Igzy down by launching into an irrelevant excursion into legalese!) (I told you if you just sought the input of some LCers they could tell you these things. But nooOooo. You want to reinvent the wheel.)

(2) Legalese is irrelevant here and you are using it as a smokescreen to brush aside common sense facts. Johnny Cochran would be proud.
It may well be purposeful Igzy but it is scarcely misleading. I haven't said what I believe may be the significance of the publication I have now e-mailed to Harold.

It is all to easy too get side tracked. I have no interest in proving anything if that means spending my days hitting on Nee or anyone else. What possible good would that do. Even if I did put together a paper on how power corrupts and how absolute power corrupts it would only be of any use to those who already believe it. The question is not whether power corrupts, it is whether a particular man was corrupt. I cannot even answer that question because I cannot believe the only published source of information out side of direct Communist influence, which is in my possession.

Just because I don't go along with the spiritual abuse argument doesn't mean I don't understand what that means. I have been spiritually abused.

When I came out of prison in 1985 the pastor of the church I attended hit on me very hard because he had been responsible for a community house one time where ex-offenders came as a half way point to full integration in society. They made his life a complete hell. So he decided that I needed to come into a strict authoritative position. I agreed with him. Why not? One thing he required of me was that I didn't date any of the girls in the church for at least six months. I agreed why not?

When I started a soup kitchen for homeless people he asked me not to raise money in the church and if anyone wanted to participate finically I had to tell them that their gift could only be extra to their tithe. I agreed why not. The Lord spoke to me one day and said to me "Andrew don't be afraid of this man's authority". Then I disobeyed the pastor. I asked my present wife out to the pictures and completely forgot what he had said. I told another brother what the pastor had said about money, but added that if he wanted to give me his tithe for the work I would accept it. Pretty soon I was before the church council. I acknowledged my faults but very quickly realised that certain sisters and one brother were against me and they kept resisting my position. I saved them all the effort and stood up taking Helen's hand and walked out of the church. I cannot stomach hypocrisy and so I left. The next morning I came to the pastor and apologised for leaving only to be told not to come back.

For four years I sought to find fellowship once again only to be resisted by the pastor and one other elder. The irony was that I was meeting with three of the elders privately and leading bible studies. After four years I thought to myself well if I have left of my own volition I can return of my own volition. So I went into the meeting and sat down at the back of the church. The pastor walked the full length of the Church purposefully shook my hand and then walked back to the front. That was that. What he couldn't have known was in the interim I had been given a son who was severally disabled and the four years had been a complete hell for my family.

I learned from this that when the Lord tells me not to be afraid of another man's authority that I must not be afraid. If I had gone back on the first Sunday after my walking out, the reality is that nothing could have been said.If it had been said then the separation would have been one of the power of the Lord and not the will of a man.

The Lord didn't say to me that the pastor had no authority. The Lord just said don't be afraid of his authority.

It is the whole difference.
03-21-2014 03:14 PM
awareness
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amrkelly View Post
Why don't you e-mail the admin@shanghaichristianassembly.org and ask Xu Feili yourself?
Now yer talking. Didn't know I could do that.
03-21-2014 03:13 PM
Igzy
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amrkelly View Post
I feel certain you must be right Igzy. Blah.
Very contrived, purposefully misleading, and it continues to brush aside the points I've made. Which are:

(1) Your plan to "prove" that rape in regards to Nee was not mentioned before the Communists would prove much less that you hoped. (Shh. Don't tell anyone and shut Igzy down by launching into an irrelevant excursion into legalese!) (I told you if you just sought the input of some LCers they could tell you these things. But nooOooo. You want to reinvent the wheel.)

(2) Legalese is irrelevant here and you are using it as a smokescreen to brush aside common sense facts. Johnny Cochran would be proud.
03-21-2014 02:51 PM
amrkelly
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Igzy View Post
Kelly, This is not a court of law. And you are not an attorney here. This is the court of public opinion, which is quite often wiser than a court of law. O.J. Simpson was found innocent of murder in a court of law, but most everyone in the court of public opinion figures he was really guilty. Who do you think got it right?

To use your terms, legalese is irrelevant here. Please stop acting like you are a hot shot lawyer and put away your Perry Mason secret decoder ring. I don't have any doubt that Hsu's account would be kicked out of a court of law. But that is irrelevant in the court of public opinion. In the court of public opinion. people get to decide for themselves what is relevant, what is admissible, and what obfuscating legalspeak doesn't pass the stink test, and yours doesn't.
I feel certain you must be right Igzy. The whole basis for murdering tens of thousand of men and women in China in the CEC process was based on that very premise.

“Early in the morning the chief priests with the elders and scribes and the whole Council, immediately held a consultation; and binding Jesus, they led Him away and delivered Him to Pilate. Pilate questioned Him, “Are You the King of the Jews?” And He answered him, “It is as you say.” The chief priests began to accuse Him harshly. Then Pilate questioned Him again, saying, “Do You not answer? See how many charges they bring against You!” But Jesus made no further answer; so Pilate was amazed. Now at the feast he used to release for them any one prisoner whom they requested. The man named Barabbas had been imprisoned with the insurrectionists who had committed murder in the insurrection. The crowd went up and began asking him to do as he had been accustomed to do for them. Pilate answered them, saying, “Do you want me to release for you the King of the Jews?” For he was aware that the chief priests had handed Him over because of envy. But the chief priests stirred up the crowd to ask him to release Barabbas for them instead. Answering again, Pilate said to them, “Then what shall I do with Him whom you call the King of the Jews?” They shouted back, “Crucify Him!” But Pilate said to them, “Why, what evil has He done?” But they shouted all the more, “Crucify Him!” Wishing to satisfy the crowd, Pilate released Barabbas for them, and after having Jesus scourged, he handed Him over to be crucified.” (Mark 15:1–15, NASB95)
03-21-2014 02:43 PM
amrkelly
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
Not. I read Feili's testimony and it proved nothing. It was just his testimony. If this is the best you can do bro Kelly best give it up.


So she called him and asked him to help her denounce Nee? Prove it.


How could he know what God blesses from heaven? He could be flat out wrong about that. God could want to bring the idolizing of Nee down. In fact we have proof that God wanted that. Nee was excommunicated twice by his brethren, and was locked up by his gov'ment. And then, to top it off, God moved Lily to give her testimony.


Hearsay here. Hearsay there. Everywhere hearsay. We're never gonna get to the bottom of this. We have no forensic evidence. No semen on the dress or nothin. How are we ever gonna get to the bottom of this? Only God knows. And He ain't telling.


And keep on keeping on. I'm on the edge of my seat, doin me best to keep up.

I'm all for trashing Hsu/Roberts ... and Watchman Nee too.

They're all only human. And that's the worst you can about anybody. Seems we can see that more clearly in others. So in the end we all can be trashed.
Some times Harold you surprise me by your perception of things.

I have no desire to trash anyone. If I did I wouldn't do it on a public forum. My stated aim is to take this BOOK to pieces and prove by no less a means than the book itself invokes, that it is false.

Why don't you e-mail the admin@shanghaichristianassembly.org and ask Xu Feili yourself?
03-21-2014 02:36 PM
awareness
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amrkelly View Post
Harold you make me nervous brother. I don't do cheese cake and cherries.

I have taken a number of screen shots and will e-mail them to you in a few minuets. From that you should be able to make your way to an online source for yourself. I can't make the connection for you but eventually I will be posting the whole article. The original translation from the 1987 publication in Chinese is presently deposited in an English academic repository. One of the screen shots has the information. It is possible to get a copy because I have one myself. Usually there is a charge for this. My own copy of the publication cost me £37.50 online. I would also be willing to send you my username and password so that you could access the full copy yourself. Then you could take as many screen shots as you liked.

It is mostly an uninteresting article which represents an early attempt into the field of Sociological research by the Chinese Government after the 'Opening Up' policy of 1979, and coincided with the appointment of Bishop Ting to the TSMP Committee as the chairman. There are no academic citations and no bibliographies. Which means that it was originally intended to be used internally. How it came to be published into English is a long story which I will explain sometime.

Just so it is stated in public Harold. The reason why I am willing to send you this and make what I have done accessible to you is because when I first posted about this three weeks ago you saw the relevance of the connection and immediately e-mailed me privately with the question as to why I wasn't naming names in my posts. I explained to you that I had to be certain that I wasn't going to get anyone in China into hot water, especially the translators who're working on my behalf. A little unlikely really, but I wanted to be certain.
Thanks Andrew. I'm glad you are rich. I'll hold the cherries in the future.
03-21-2014 02:30 PM
awareness
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amrkelly View Post
The sexual 'evidence' has been challenged in your sight in the past few days by the statement of Xu Feili
Not. I read Feili's testimony and it proved nothing. It was just his testimony. If this is the best you can do bro Kelly best give it up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew
Xu Mei Li (Dr Hsu) contacted Xu Feili in the USA in the early 1990s whilst he was living in Pasadena to encourage him to support her in a process of further denouncing Watchman Nee.
So she called him and asked him to help her denounce Nee? Prove it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew
He refused and stated to her that he did not believe that her endeavours would bring a blessing and approval from God in heaven.
How could he know what God blesses from heaven? He could be flat out wrong about that. God could want to bring the idolizing of Nee down. In fact we have proof that God wanted that. Nee was excommunicated twice by his brethren, and was locked up by his gov'ment. And then, to top it off, God moved Lily to give her testimony.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew
He also stated that he heard in Shanghai at that time of a political prisoner Chen Pixian, the First Secretary of East China Bureau, now fallen out of favour, was similarly accused with the crime of licentiousness by means of the same piece of film evidence.
Hearsay here. Hearsay there. Everywhere hearsay. We're never gonna get to the bottom of this. We have no forensic evidence. No semen on the dress or nothin. How are we ever gonna get to the bottom of this? Only God knows. And He ain't telling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew
In doing what I am doing I can only be proving the substance of their claim.
And keep on keeping on. I'm on the edge of my seat, doin me best to keep up.

I'm all for trashing Hsu/Roberts ... and Watchman Nee too.

They're all only human. And that's the worst you can about anybody. Seems we can see that more clearly in others. So in the end we all can be trashed.
03-21-2014 02:23 PM
amrkelly
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
After reading all you have written, it seems like a logical conclusion.

Listen, Kelly, it is frightening to me to see how you react to people who disagree with you. You attack them without hesitancy. Your volatile temper is like a powder keg waiting for a spark. Except for anonymity and the Atlantic Ocean, I frankly would would never engage you on a public forum. People have died for far less than I have posted.
If you say so Mr Ohio!

Get that did we?
03-21-2014 02:14 PM
amrkelly
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
I'm sorry if I missed it but where have you posted this official gov'ment doc.? If not hit me with it in email .... pretty please, with a cherry on top.
Harold you make me nervous brother. I don't do cheese cake and cherries.

I have taken a number of screen shots and will e-mail them to you in a few minuets. From that you should be able to make your way to an online source for yourself. I can't make the connection for you but eventually I will be posting the whole article. The original translation from the 1987 publication in Chinese is presently deposited in an English academic repository. One of the screen shots has the information. It is possible to get a copy because I have one myself. Usually there is a charge for this. My own copy of the publication cost me £37.50 online. I would also be willing to send you my username and password so that you could access the full copy yourself. Then you could take as many screen shots as you liked.

It is mostly an uninteresting article which represents an early attempt into the field of Sociological research by the Chinese Government after the 'Opening Up' policy of 1979, and coincided with the appointment of Bishop Ting to the TSMP Committee as the chairman. There are no academic citations and no bibliographies. Which means that it was originally intended to be used internally. How it came to be published into English is a long story which I will explain sometime.

Just so it is stated in public Harold. The reason why I am willing to send you this and make what I have done accessible to you is because when I first posted about this three weeks ago you saw the relevance of the connection and immediately e-mailed me privately with the question as to why I wasn't naming names in my posts. I explained to you that I had to be certain that I wasn't going to get anyone in China into hot water, especially the translators who're working on my behalf. A little unlikely really, but I wanted to be certain.
03-21-2014 02:13 PM
Ohio
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amrkelly View Post
We are scaling new heights here then Mr Ohio. Igzy tells me that he can get on a plane and whup my proverbial gluteus maximus and I get accused of being a mad man. Unusual if nothing else!
After reading all you have written, it seems like a logical conclusion.

Listen, Kelly, it is frightening to me to see how you react to people who disagree with you. You attack them without hesitancy. Your volatile temper is like a powder keg waiting for a spark. Except for anonymity and the Atlantic Ocean, I frankly would would never engage you on a public forum. People have died for far less than I have posted.
03-21-2014 02:11 PM
Igzy
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amrkelly View Post
I can see the connection Mr Ohio. Even a blindfolded Texan can see the connection. I just haven't acknowledged it for all the reason I have stated time and again. What don't you understand Mr Ohio?
kelly, If something happened in, say, the Amish community in the US. And I as an outsider wanted to understand why it happened, I would want to ask some Amish about it, to get a better understanding of the Amish community. If I couldn't find some Amish, I would probably want to talk to some Mennonites, because they are much like the Amish. Both have their roots in the Anabaptists.

LCers have a experiential insight into the Little Flock, much like the Mennonites might have of the Amish. Our roots are there. Lee sought to reproduce the LF in the US. So for you to say our insights are irrelevant is just plain stupid. We have an understanding of the tendencies of that culture that you flat do not and as a researcher would be interested in if you really wanted to get to the truth.
03-21-2014 01:59 PM
amrkelly
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Exactly.

Others have done that in Taiwan and the USA.

Like I said. You are making progress.

And since you have blind-folded yourself to the horrible dangers of MOTA theology and practice, you can't see the connection.
I can see the connection Mr Ohio. Even a blindfolded Texan can see the connection. I just haven't acknowledged it for all the reason I have stated time and again. What don't you understand Mr Ohio?
03-21-2014 01:56 PM
amrkelly
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Glad to see that I cheered your day.

You could never shock me, Kelly. I know you well enough to understand that you are probably capable of anything. I'm sure you have the ability to find me, hunt me down, take me out, all the while thinking you are doing service to God. People like you are scary.
We are scaling new heights here then Mr Ohio. Igzy tells me that he can get on a plane and whup my proverbial gluteus maximus and I get accused of being a mad man. Unusual if nothing else!

Quote:
Careful, Kelly. I can still jump on a plane and come over there and whup your butt. I'm from Texas, you know. Igzy post number 1175
03-21-2014 01:49 PM
Ohio
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Igzy View Post
Boy, you said it, Ohio. I've never seen a poster more enamored with himself. He makes Steward seem almost saintlike in comparison.

Kelly, are you sure your name isn't Johnny Cochran? Let's hear you say, "If the gloves don't fit, you must acquit!"
And go watch that film again.

Those gloves were a perfect fit.

"O.J. your fist is clenched, just relax and put the gloves on."
03-21-2014 01:47 PM
Ohio
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Igzy View Post
Kelly, This is not a court of law. And you are not an attorney here. This is the court of public opinion, which is quite often wiser than a court of law. O.J. Simpson was found innocent of murder in a court of law, but most everyone in the court of public opinion figures he was really guilty. Who do you think got it right?
That's right. The public got it right.

From the moment they busted into Game 5 of the 1994 NBA Finals between the Knicks and the Rockets to show that O.J. slow speed car chase, we knew, I mean we just knew, that O.J. killed his ex-wife.

And when O.J. threatened to kill himself, I had no sympathy. Inside I said "do it man," save us all the trouble. What a nightmare that trial was.
03-21-2014 01:46 PM
Igzy
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
You could never shock me, Kelly. I know you well enough to understand that you are probably capable of anything. I'm sure you have the ability to find me, hunt me down, take me out, all the while thinking you are doing service to God. People like you are scary.
Boy, you said it, Ohio. I've never seen a poster more enamored with himself. He makes Steward seem almost saintlike in comparison.

Kelly, are you sure your name isn't Johnny Cochran? Let's hear you say, "If the gloves don't fit, you must acquit!" C'mon. Break out the Perry Mason decoder ring and spin us some more legalese.
03-21-2014 01:38 PM
Ohio
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amrkelly View Post
Very amusing Mr Ohio. What I admit to is scarcely relevant. If I told you what I actually believe personally you might be shocked by it. But that is beside the point.

As you know very well that meeting in 1942/3 it of itself a contentious issue. Not least because the very reason why it was called is in question itself. Acknowledging that it took place is a simple matter. What it really meant and why it resulted in Nee being suspended from ministry in Shanghai Christian Assembly is still needing the necessary citations and proofs. They will come in time no doubt.
Glad to see that I cheered your day.

You could never shock me, Kelly. I know you well enough to understand that you are probably capable of anything. I'm sure you have the ability to find me, hunt me down, take me out, all the while thinking you are doing service to God. People like you are scary.
03-21-2014 01:30 PM
amrkelly
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
So now you are willing to admit that Nee was indeed disciplined by the SCA in 1942?

That is real progress, Kelly. You have had a real change in heart.
Very amusing Mr Ohio. What I admit to is scarcely relevant. If I told you what I actually believe personally you might be shocked by it. But that is beside the point. As you know very well that meeting in 1942/3 is of itself a contentious issue. Not least because the very reason why it was called is in question itself. Acknowledging that it took place is a simple matter. What it really meant and why it resulted in Nee being suspended from ministry in Shanghai Christian Assembly is still needing the necessary citations and proofs. They will come in time no doubt.
03-21-2014 01:27 PM
awareness
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amrkelly View Post
You may as well either ignore me Igzy or else start reading what I actually say. I am not a story teller, nor a gossip. Sometimes I do stray into personal vitriol, but assuming that much at least is easily recognised, the things that I am saying, are said from a forensic position.

What I said Igzy is that I can prove that the Chinese Government itself initiated the accusations of rape and this pre-dates any other reference in either China or the Western world claiming that Nee raped women. That includes anything which Dr Hsu had either written or claimed herself.

What I am not saying because it would be subjective presumption is that Dr Hsu took that claim of rape from the Communist publication I am making reference to.

The fact of the matter is very simple. Did anyone anywhere accuse Nee of rape before 1987 either in China or the Western world. I can prove by publication and Congress Registry Book record that the Chinese government appointed 6 researchers to study the religious situation in Shanghai in 1983 just after Bishop Ting came to his office of the TSMP movement. The publication is supported by the words and encouragement of the man who presided at Nee's denunciation hearing in January 1956. He was the then chief of the BRA. His name if Luo Zhufeng.

Only one man and one church is singled out in this official publication, for special attention, and that is Ni Tuoshen and the Shanghai Christian Assembly. I am not making a doubtful claim am I Igzy it is clear, precise and cannot be retracted can it?
I'm sorry if I missed it but where have you posted this official gov'ment doc.? If not hit me with it in email .... pretty please, with a cherry on top.
03-21-2014 01:27 PM
Ohio
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amrkelly View Post
Lee and his sons are not accused by Hsu of multiple rapes. It is Nee. Give me a break.
Exactly.

Others have done that in Taiwan and the USA.

Like I said. You are making progress.

And since you have blind-folded yourself to the horrible dangers of MOTA theology and practice, you can't see the connection.
03-21-2014 01:27 PM
Igzy
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Kelly, This is not a court of law. And you are not an attorney here. This is the court of public opinion, which is quite often wiser than a court of law. O.J. Simpson was found innocent of murder in a court of law, but most everyone in the court of public opinion figures he was really guilty. Who do you think got it right?

To use your terms, legalese is irrelevant here. Please stop acting like you are a hot shot lawyer and put away your Perry Mason secret decoder ring. I don't have any doubt that Hsu's account would be kicked out of a court of law. But that is irrelevant in the court of public opinion. In the court of public opinion. people get to decide for themselves what is relevant, what is admissible, and what obfuscating legalspeak doesn't pass the stink test, and yours doesn't.
03-21-2014 01:25 PM
Ohio
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amrkelly View Post
Therein lies the sad reality of this book. No one came forward to provide any evidence at the time. All the words which make for a cease that their decision was somehow a fully valid one is also a travesty of justice and a nonsense of words. That account too is butchered and misshaped by Hsu because she dances back and forth trying to prove some that cannot be proven. There is not a single shred of evidence that this so called excommunication meeting in 1942/3 even took place. Assuming that it did is is a fragmented account suggesting no less than two outcomes.

I personally believe that such a meeting did take place because I have found independent evidence that it di in fact take place.
What is not even remotely clear is what really transpired and what was said. No one came to bear witness against Nee. Nee didn't even attend the meeting itself. Wherein lies the substance in that?
So now you are willing to admit that Nee was indeed disciplined by the SCA in 1942?

That is real progress, Kelly. You have had a real change in heart.
03-21-2014 01:22 PM
awareness
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amrkelly View Post
I am saying I can prove that it was the Chinese Government who has promoted the term rape in connection with Nee
Please keep me posted ....
03-21-2014 01:22 PM
amrkelly
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
See Kelly this is where you are willfully blind to the facts.

The connection between China and the USA was Lee and his sons.
Lee and his sons are not accused by Hsu of multiple rapes. It is Nee. Give me a break.
03-21-2014 01:21 PM
amrkelly
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
I came on to this thread talking like you. Read the posts. Then read the book with an open mind.

Actually I don't even consider anything from Nee's trial as acceptable for consideration. I go back to those pre-Communist days when the SCA prayerfully weighed the accusations of many prominent saints, and then decided to discipline Nee. Nee appointed those elders. If they were just a bunch of flunkies, they never would have listened to witnesses.
Therein lies the sad reality of this book. No one came forward to provide any evidence at the time. All the words which make for a case, that their decision was somehow a fully valid one, is also a travesty of justice, and a nonsense of words. That account too is butchered and misshapen by Hsu because she dances back and forth trying to prove something that cannot be proven. There is not a single shred of evidence that this so called excommunication meeting in 1942/3 even took place in the book. Assuming that it did, it is a fragmented account suggesting no less than two outcomes.

I personally believe that such a meeting did take place because I have found independent evidence that it did in fact take place. What is not even remotely clear is what really transpired and what was said. No one came to bear witness against Nee. Nee didn't even attend the meeting itself. Wherein lies the substance in that?
03-21-2014 01:21 PM
Ohio
Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amrkelly View Post
The culture of events which happened in the Local Churches in the USA may well have a bearing on just about anything. Not least the people who were directly involved in their physical bodies. But Nee wasn't directly involved in the USA in his physical body. To keep arguing that his teachings, even if we adopt the popular meaning of those teachings, is relevant before the fact, in this instance rape, is completely nonsensical. It presupposes that Nee was guilt of either rape or at least of sexual indiscretions amounting to gross misconduct.
See Kelly this is where you are willfully blind to the facts.

The connection between China and the USA was Lee and his sons.
03-21-2014 01:10 PM
Ohio