Originally Posted by Ohio

Thus we have every LC member gleefully singing,

"Oh I'm a man --
I'm the meaning of the universe;
"Yes, I'm a man --
I'm the meaning of the universe;
God made me such,
I am so much;
I'm the center and the meaning of the universe." (Hymns #1293)

Kind of like when they hits the streets after a meeting, "I am a baby god!!!"

Originally Posted by Ohio

Peter said we are "partakers of the divine nature." (2 Peter 1.4)

Witness Lee distorted this by saying, "we become God in nature."

Originally Posted by Drake

Peter blasphemed?

Never considered that. Please explain.

Drake

Originally Posted by DistantStar

I haven't been on this forum in a while. Can you show me where those lyrics were sung?

Originally Posted by DistantStar

I haven't been on this forum in a while. Can you show me where those lyrics were sung? And where they said we become God in nature? That's the most blasphemous thing someone could possibly say.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

"O I’m a man — I’m the meaning of the universe God made me such, I am so much; I’m the center and the meaning of the universe.". Of course these lyrics came directly from Witness Lee's teachings regarding the church, and was actually one of the pillars of Lee's overall ministry. We were "becoming God in life and nature" after all.

Originally Posted by recoveringCK

The stratosphere is on our way to the 3rd heaven were god lives in the Swan constellation, Cygnus, anyway. Interesting. Entertaining.

Originally Posted by Ohio

My apologies to RecoveringCK, since we have taken this thread into the stratosphere.

Originally Posted by awareness

Now I've got the itch. I searched the whole book for "swan" and "constellation," and found nothing.

So where did Nee say it? Maybe it's been scrubbed.

And great pix bro Ohio. By the way, the stars in the swan constellation aren't anywhere related to each other. They take their shape when seen from earth.

That's why I laughed at Nee's remark. There's no actual center to the stars in the swan constellation. They aren't all stars.

Originally Posted by awareness

Now I've got the itch. I searched the whole book for "swan" and "constellation," and found nothing.

So where did Nee say it? Maybe it's been scrubbed.

And great pix bro Ohio. By the way, the stars in the swan constellation aren't anywhere related to each other. They take their shape when seen from earth.

That's why I laughed at Nee's remark. There's no actual center to the stars in the swan constellation. They aren't all stars.

Originally Posted by Drake

Hi ABF,

The Word of the.Cross. Should be Chapter 6.

Drake

Originally Posted by ABrotherinFaith

I've never heard/read that. Do you remember where I can find it in his writing? Or at least which verses he used to arrive at that idea?

Originally Posted by ABrotherinFaith

I've never heard/read that. Do you remember where I can find it in his writing? Or at least which verses he used to arrive at that idea?

Originally Posted by Drake

Brother Nee speculated that God's throne may be physically located in the "Swan" constellation.

Originally Posted by Drake

Brother Nee speculated that God's throne may be physically located in the "Swan" constellation.

Originally Posted by Drake

However, as pertains to man's spirit being the center of the universe (Zech 12:1) ... I think it is one of purpose, mission, ... also its a matter in the spiritual realm.

Originally Posted by awareness

Lee couldn't possibly have known such a thing. He didn't get it from the Bible. And despite the fact that his followers believed that Lee had a hotline to God, he didn't. Does the universe even have a center? Does it have edges? We don't know. Maybe the Big Bang is the center. We don't know that either. This is nothing but folly.

Originally Posted by JJ

Can anyone explain to me how Zech 12:1 shows the spirit of man as the center of the universe?

Originally Posted by Ohio

God on His throne is the only "center of the universe."

Originally Posted by Ohio

God on His throne is the only "center of the universe."
Teachings like these highlight Lee's excessive view of himself, really.

Originally Posted by JJ

Can anyone explain to me how Zech 12:1 shows the spirit of man as the center of the universe?

Originally Posted by JJ

Can anyone explain to me how Zech 12:1 shows the spirit of man as the center of the universe?

Originally Posted by Ohio

We should also note that J. N. Darby and company violated all of the original Brethren principles when he decided to axe Newton and Mueller.

Originally Posted by aron

One of the discordant features in LC-land is that what Watchman Nee is touted for doing, i.e. drawing from many narrative streams in Christianity, is now forbidden. Go figure.

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Yeah, there are very few I hear who have all the picture, to be sure! The main thing is to take what there is of Christ from any message from ANY source!

Originally Posted by leastofthese

This is such a key point, especially for those trapped in the LSM local churches. Pastor Brett down at the Community Church, in fact, says he isn’t today’s Paul, he tries to reconcile families, challenges you to read other resources, appreciates feedback and discussion - however imperfectly.

Originally Posted by leastofthese

To those in the LSM churches - do you have a Christian that you know, trust, and admire as a child of God (a true believer) that does not meet with the "Local Churches"? Maybe family, friend, neighbor, co-worker?

I would challenge you to share with them the "afaithfulword" website, bring them to your church and let them experience the hold that the LSM has on the body of believers.

Please share your experience on this site - it will be helpful for others.

Originally Posted by Drake

However, to ridicule the teaching with mocking is a spiritual version of Esau selling his inheritance for a bowl of porridge. What is the "porridge" you desire here

Originally Posted by awareness

Amen bro Drake ...

Originally Posted by Drake

That's correct..... except every man but One is fallen.

Drake

Originally Posted by Drake

Spiritual progress is determined how you handle the light that the Lord has entrusted to you already.

Originally Posted by awareness

Zech puts your spirit as the center of the universe. Not ... btw ... Witness Lee ... or Nee ... or any other of the "fallen." Read YOUR spirit.

Originally Posted by Drake

Specifically, you are the recipient of the recovered truth concerning Zech 12:1... the significance of man's spirit juxtaposed in a verse with the most powerful act of creation.... that of the heavens and the earth. You are part of a group whose leader embraced that teaching and learned it from someone else.

Originally Posted by Drake

Treasure the light you have received through others whose shoulders you are standing on. They paid a price and you are the beneficiary. If you have received new light then share it. Spiritual progress is determined how you handle the light that the Lord has entrusted to you already.

Drake

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

What is your definition of "birthright" here?

Originally Posted by Trapped

I was floored. Absolutely unbelievable, really, I just cannot believe it. If you do not follow Witness Lee and Witness Lee alone you are "void of light and revelation and are not serving according to [the Lord's] vision"?

Originally Posted by Trapped

LofT,

No joke, when I read your quote I was chuckling to myself because it was so extreme I literally thought you had created an over-the-top exaggerated parody version of the MOTA doctrine off the top of your head as a joke. Then you referenced the source and I realized it actually was in ministry print.

I was floored. Absolutely unbelievable, really, I just cannot believe it. If you do not follow Witness Lee and Witness Lee alone you are "void of light and revelation and are not serving according to [the Lord's] vision"?

It's actually very scary and very serious that any Christian group would try to propagate any kind of thought like this. There is no "one man per age principle", it just does not exist. The only "one man" we EVER need to spend any time on is Jesus.

I also just flat out don't understand how anyone can possibly swallow the thought that God has operated according to this "principle" throughout all the ages, and then all of a sudden, He abandons His principle and there is no longer a "one man visionary source" and you just have to keep reading the last man's material. The afaithfulword.org site even says "The dissenters' demand that the co-workers identify a present "minister of the age" is misplaced. The real question is whether we have fully entered into the vision that the Lord has already given to us."

NOPE, sorry LSM BB's, actually that demand is the logical question and conclusion of anyone with basic human intelligence that you are trying to get to swallow this ridiculous principle!!! Their three recommendations to enter into the vision actually translate in practice to "buy more LSM books and regurgitate more LSM material". Totally sickening.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Nice tax shelter.

http://rct.doj.ca.gov/Verification/W...027b8f80327bff

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Wasting time pretending and defending Lee when Christ’s work of redemption is real? - As believers we are children of God and heirs with Christ!

Originally Posted by leastofthese

This exerpt is from https://afaithfulword.org/articles/V...ster/#Minister
Please reference the link above for additional context and content.

Originally Posted by leastofthese

This exerpt is from https://afaithfulword.org/articles/V...ster/#Minister
Please reference the link above for additional context and content.

Originally Posted by Drake

Yet, maybe that is not important to you.... or perhaps God is showing you something different. In any case, you should treasure your birthright.

Drake

Originally Posted by Drake

In any case, you should treasure your birthright.

Originally Posted by recoveringCK

It's helpful to know others noted similar contradictions.

The discussions will help to enforce transparency in their compartmentalized hierarchy no matter how strongly they declare everything is open, there is no hierarchy and there are no secrets.

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Here's a funny thought: Maybe bro Lee was a little like Fox News (a right-biased news network in the USA). Things were so skewed toward a low vision of the church (a "cheapened" added word itself) that WL thought he needed to "balance" things out. But in doing so he went a tad far and elevated man even beyond what scripture says.

(And now, like brother Spurgeon was fond of saying, "Let's smoke a cigar to the glory of God!")

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Wow - I haven't thought about that song one bit for many, many years --- the Holy Spirit has never brought it up in my mind, like He does with so many other songs from way-back-when! I could not sing that song today.

While I understand that God made us in His image & likeness and has a wonderful and lofty purpose for regenerated man - much more than any of us know - to say that man is the center and meaning of the universe is going too far! It is not scriptural according to anything I've read in the Bible.

The gathering in Scottsdale certainly still sings some of the songs that came from LC sources, but that definitely is not one of them!

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

And that has been something of my experience too. Our ekklesia has a rich ministry, which I really enjoy and am greatly nourished whereby to pursue the Lord. But as I've traveled around and been to different locations and gatherings, at first I had a critical mind toward them. However I began to see how this really killed the fellowship. So instead, when I visited another group I began to just thank the Lord for them, the way they did things and their speaking. When I laid aside the old criticisms (i.e., "put off the old man"), then I was able to enjoy oneness and experience something of Christ with these different ones.

And it seems like a fair comparison of pastor Bob and WL. We also had someone here 20 years ago who was ruling families with a heavy hand and there were many broken marriages, but thankfully the Lord purged that person out.

And I think your last point was good too - yes, if things hadn't have been degraded in Christendom, then WL wouldn't have been able to offer an alternative. I do believe the enjoyment of Christ was strong in the LC in the 1960s to perhaps the mid-1970s. But a number of things suppressed that, not the least of which was the extreme exclusivity.

Originally Posted by aron

We were in a system that was hyper-aware of all the failures of everyone else but oblivious to its own. For several years I afterward, I would sit in the Community Church and mentally bad-mouth everything they were saying and doing. It took me, literally, years to begin to listen for God's voice. I was so used to listening to the ministry.

Of course Pastor Bob down at the Community Church also is self-contradictory, and misses points from scripture, and commits illogical faux pas, and so forth. But Pastor Bob doesn't try to pass himself off as Today's Paul, God's Oracle and sole Deputy either. Pastor Bob doesn't quarantine people, and split up their families, if they begin to read other sources, and raise alternatives.

There's plenty that needs adjustment. WL wouldn't have gotten a movement together if there were not people looking for alternatives to the status quo (likewise WN in China in 1925-35).

But like poem of the woman who swallowed the fly, the corrective measures may be worse than the original problem. We should at least consider that possibility.

Originally Posted by aron

Of course Pastor Bob down at the Community Church also is self-contradictory, and misses points from scripture, and commits illogical faux pas, and so forth. But Pastor Bob doesn't try to pass himself off as Today's Paul, God's Oracle and sole Deputy either. Pastor Bob doesn't quarantine people, and split up their families, if they begin to read other sources, and raise alternatives..

Originally Posted by leastofthese

I saw inconsistencies like this throughout my time with the LSM church. It is such an interesting comment “being trained or conditioned not to notice”. I also found that to be true in the LSM church. Also, if you did notice, you chalk that up to being in flesh, etc. and do not share.

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

WL thought he needed to "balance" things out. But in doing so he went a tad far

Originally Posted by aron

You have to remember that the "center of the universe" was whatever Witness Lee was teaching this week. It changed from training to training, but apparently we were 'trained' or conditioned not to notice (or not to mention that we noticed).

I did a Google search on the key words and found these varied quotes.


All this suggested brainwashing, to me.

Originally Posted by Weighingin

In regards to the comments on man being the center of the universe, I checked Zechariah 12:1 in the RV. To paraphrase some of the footnote, it states that the the heavens, the earth, and the spirit of man were made by God as three crucial and equally important items. Also, that God intended Christ to be the centrality and universality of His move on earth. I recall, as a young person, singing that song and thinking that way. I haven't heard that hymn in recent years. At that time, I just received everything that was said and done.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Originally Posted by aron

“Some years ago I read an article regarding the size of the universe published by an institute of astronomy. According to this article, two hundred forty million solar systems make one galaxy, and forty billion galaxies form the unique center of the universe. I believe the throne of God is located in this unique center. “ (Witness Lee, Basic Training p. 9)

“Revelation 22:1 says, “He showed me a river of water of life, bright as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb in the middle of its street.” The throne here is the center of the New Jerusalem. Every nation has a center. The center of a nation is its capital, the place where the central government is located. The New Jerusalem also has a center, which is the throne of God and of the Lamb.

According to the context of this portion of the Word, the throne of God and of the Lamb is the center of the New Jerusalem, on which the redeeming God, as indicated by the expression “God and the Lamb”, carries out His administration based upon His redemption, in His eternal kingdom in the new heaven and new earth, to keep everything in the universe in the order that serves His purpose.” (The Conclusion of the New Testament p. 2734)

“The throne of God in the center of the New Jerusalem is the unique source of the life supply. It is by His administration that God dispenses Himself into us as life, as the life supply, and as the eternal, absolute, all-inclusive grace. His dispensing of Himself into us depends upon His administration.” (TCONT p. 4419)

“The tree of life is the center of the universe. According to the purpose of God, the earth is the center of the universe, the garden of Eden is the center of the earth, and the tree of life is the center of the garden of Eden. We must realize that the whole universe is centered on this tree of life: nothing is more central and crucial to both God and man than this tree. It is very meaningful to see man in the garden standing before the tree of life.” (Life-Study of Genesis, p. 140)

“Looking at the plot plan of the temple compound, we can see that no matter through which gate we enter, we will arrive at the altar. When God comes from the temple to meet man, He likewise arrives at the altar. Therefore the altar is not only the center of the universe but also the meeting place of God with man and of man with God . . . the cross, therefore, is not only the center but also the circumference. . “ (Life-Study of Ezekiel, Msg 21)

"THE CENTER OF THE UNIVERSE - MAN" (Gospel Outlines, Title of Subject Three)

So, what's the center of the universe? The altar, or the tree of life, or the throne of God, or man? Answer: whatever Witness Lee needed it to be for that message. This was a ministry of expedience. Yet no one ever questioned these glaring contradictions. I could list many such examples - I just point out an obvious one.

All those messages in front of all those people. Yet nobody ever said, Wait a minute here . . . ??? Amazing, in retrospect.

Originally Posted by awareness

I tried that. It didn't turn out well.

Originally Posted by Ohio

The LSM "mission" is built on sinking sand, stating that only they are the Lord's testimony, and all others are hopelessly divided and helplessly degraded. The LSM mission is built upon Nee and Lee as MOTA's, the only legitimate Ministers of the Age, with all other ministers illegitimate at best . . .

Originally Posted by Drake

So, if you think the mission is right then I’d encourage you to be led by it and trust the Lord through your prayer and petition to align the execution with the mission/vision.

Originally Posted by Drake

You applaud the stated mission but criticize the execution of it.

The Lord will judge and what is not of Him will burn up as wood, hay, and stubble.

However, as long as the mission/vision is right the execution can be adjusted. If the mission is missing or wrong then the execution matters little. So, if you think the mission is right then I’d encourage you to be led by it and trust the Lord through your prayer and petition to align the execution with the mission/vision.

Drake

Originally Posted by recoveringCK

So far so good. Let's do it.


Unfortunately, what they actually do is substantially different from what they say they do.

They do put on a very good front and use effective control techniques.

Originally Posted by recoveringCK

Growing up in the church one is taught the light on the scriptures from WL & WN was the best available, the current move of the Lord on the earth today, the church was to be the bride of Christ, ushering in the New Jerusalem complete with the Millennial Kingdom as a reward to the overcomers, true believers who pursue Christ according to the doctrines espoused. One could even say the church was the center and meaning of the universe.

Originally Posted by Ohio

The internet made available the actual record of history, how events were precipitated by Lee's own profligate son Philip molesting sisters and abusing workers.

God shined a bright light on the deception and corruption at LSM.

Originally Posted by HistoryofLordsRecovery

1. The Beginning of the Church Life In 1962 the church life in the Lord’s recovery had already begun, but accelerated markedly with the arrival of brother Witness Lee who was fully charged and burdened by the Lord to minister the word of God in the United States. He testified that he came with a "particular commission to bring the Lord's recovery to the top Christian country". The response to his ministry in the United States was immediate and many left secure jobs and moved long distances to partake of the church life in Los Angeles.

2. The Catalyst for Coming to the U.S. (Larry Chi, former Taipei elder) Although Brother Lee testified that he was commissioned by the Lord to come to the U. S., there were serious issues between him and churches in the Far East that were a catalyst for his coming here. In the late fifties he had created a major problem to the church in Taipei through business failures involving investments from the saints, and his oldest son, Timothy, and he lost a lot of money. This brought a financial crisis to the church in Taipei. All the donations from the church members were used to pay the debt incurred, and still a large amount of money was owed. Due to the desperate situation, Brother Lee coerced the elders to sell a piece of land belonging to the church in order to pay the debt. Because of that action many coworkers and church members were especially unhappy. That piece of land had been bought by the church to build a training center and a new meeting place. Brother Lee knew that what he did was wrong and left for the West Coast of the United States in 1960.

After Brother Lee left Taiwan, the church coworkers formed two sides. One side was Brother Lee’s strong followers, while the other group had questions about some of his activities. Those two groups had a strong difference of opinion, which greatly affected the church life and made the work of the church difficult to carry out. Eventually, some of the coworkers who were followers of Brother Lee asked him to come back to Taiwan to resolve differences. In the summer of 1965, Brother Lee came back to Taipei. He decided to get rid of those coworkers who disagreed with him. Consequently, there were thousands of people who left the church. At that time almost 30% of the regular members left, a most serious situation being that about 80-90% of the young members who were college students left the church. Brother Lee’s action in 1965 has been referred to as a “cleansing massacre” to get the church to line up with him only. Others feel that it was a necessary move. At any rate Brother Lee came back to the U. S. and the saints in Taipei were left to pick up the pieces and begin to rebuild.

In other matters in the Far East, toward the end of the 1950’s co-workers in Hong Kong, the Philippines, Singapore, and Malaysia had serious differences with Brother Lee because of the absolute authority he exercised, which was hard for them to take. Everything was dictated by him, and he would not take any input from others. It was a “my way or the highway attitude”, according to one brother.

In addition some of the affluent church members were very unhappy about his handling of the financial matters. This was due to the fact that a lot of the money had been contributed by them, and Brother Lee handled the finances according to his own thought. The co-workers did not feel they could trust him anymore and because of the differences they had with him they split up.

As Brother Lee left Taiwan in 1960 for the U. S., the church work there was in serious disarray. Also the Philippines work was split off. The Philippines was very important to Brother Lee and several well-to-do church members supported the church there financially over the years. Manila, however, decided to sever relationships with Brother Lee totally in 1960.

Concerning the Philippines and finances, Brother Lee was nearly arrested at the Manila airport for trying to smuggle a gold bar out of the country. He received a warning only, because of his good reputation in the country. (by Larry Chi, former elder in Taipei)

3. Brother Lee Admits to Mistakes Even though it is not common to point to Brother Lee’s mistakes, he himself did so, saying, “I have made many mistakes; even some big mistakes” (Eph. L. S., p. 279, 1978). When he came to the West Coast, Brother Lee knew about some mistakes he made in the Far East. To repeat, when Brother Lee left Taiwan to go to the U.S. in 1960, it was not really that he went there to open up a new land for the Lord’s recovery. Rather, it was because of his own personal failure in Taiwan that he escaped to the U.S.

4. Brothers’ Request in L. A. and Problems in Taipei In 1962 Brother Lee set up a business for his oldest son, Timothy, at the Seattle World’s Fair. Since he was on the West Coast, the brothers in Los Angeles asked him to give them a conference, and he did so after the Fair. After those meetings they begged him to move to Los Angeles. He did take up residence in L. A., since he really could not go back to Taipei.

5. Brother Lee Repents Don Hardy felt that the reason Witness Lee had such impact in the U. S. in the sixties was because he had deeply repented of his wrongdoings and was a cleansed vessel to begin his rich ministry of the word in this country. Paul Ma testified to the brothers that Brother Lee spent many hours of prayerful repenting while traveling with him in the early sixties in the U. S. He was seen in the corner of a motel room praying “Lord, have mercy”, “Lord have mercy”, over and over for a long period of time.

6. Witness Lee’s Main Burden Brother Lee’s main spiritual burden in the U.S. was to reveal Christ as the life-giving Spirit with all His unsearchable riches. This burden began to be discharged in the first conference meetings held in the United States in 1962 in the home of Samuel Chang. The All-Inclusive Christ came out of that conference. His focus during the early years was on the experience of Christ as life for the building up of the church.

7. Concern for Weakness in Brother Lee In 1966 Samuel Chang revealed to a young prospective elder, Don Hardy, his serious concern for Brother Lee and a defect in his character related to his son, Timothy, and all his seven children. Don was exhorted to keep the matter covered much in prayer. Samuel’s concern was well-founded given the record of the extent Brother Lee would go for his son, Timothy, in business at the expense of others and the church. His word to Don portended for far more serious developments in the future with Timothy Lee and another son, Philip, who were made heads of businesses for Brother Lee, involving the saints.

What provoked Samuel Chang to speak to Don Hardy as he did was that the meeting place of the church in Los Angeles was being used by Brother Lee to store the unsold expensive suits and shirts left over from his World’s Fair business with Timothy. This was a source of irritation and concern to Samuel, especially since he knew of the problems Brother Lee’s business excursions had caused the church in the past in Taipei.

Originally Posted by recoveringCK

Unfortunately, what they actually do is substantially different from what they say they do.

Originally Posted by aron

Today, with the internet, one can read the stories. LSM no longer runs the only printing press in town. One can read what happened to others, as they realized the extent of the gap between how the LC " church life" was supposed to be, and how it really was.

Originally Posted by recoveringCK

Unfortunately, what they actually do is substantially different from what they say they do.

They do put on a very good front and use effective control techniques.