Originally Posted by Mysteria

EDIT: Okay, I've answered your question in my intro thread in Alt Views called "Ask a Pagan a Question."

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Do you practice Wiccan ? Or worship gods like the Egyptians? Do you worship Allah? Who do you 'credit' or 'blame' evil? Where does it initiate from your perspective?

Not being critical or judgmental... just curious who and what your worship since you are a polythiest pagan.



You have to read the entire account for yourself and derive the spiritual significance of the account not just the historical aspect. In this world there are very powerful, controlling, manuplative people in both the religious and secular realms.. politics, corporations, religious institutions, relationships. Just take a look at the headlines in the last month or so!! All these powerful men (mostly) who intimidated young boys/girls..young women in Hollywood and elsewhere.



Again.. you have to read the entire account for yourself. And yes.. controlling, manipulative people can weaken strong people. Egypt, Greece, Rome were once very powerful nations.. and they came crumbling down when they were weakened.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist or a spiritual person to see that !! Also, many of the 'powerful' women in Hollywood today are coming out stating that when they were young, these powerful moguls sexually harassed them, intimated them, groped them, raped them and were threatened if they said anything to anyone. Pedophilia is rampant in Hollywood. Are the children that have been violated weak because they did not say anything?

But many like Angelina Jolie who claimed she was sexually harassed at 16 yrs old is now a powerful, successful Hollywood elite herself! And I'm sure she has controlled, manipulated people herself!



In the case of Jezebel and Ahab, I never said he was a true leader. He was not from the get go!
Just because a person has a high political or religious position does not make them true leaders.



Thank you for reading my explanation.

Originally Posted by Mysteria

I agree whole heartedly with the spirit of your message, and that's the important thing.

Nitpickingly:

- I'm not an athiest; I'm a polythiest pagan.

Originally Posted by Mysteria

I don't know how to do this formatting yet. Sorry!

I guess I can sound hostile. So I'm sorry for that.


Now that I think about it, and I can't believe I missed this, but I'm wondering why SHOULD you or anyone else automatically understand neo-pagan to have anything to do with the pagan gods? For the sake of PR mainly (and by PR, I mean not being burned at the stake or having their reputations ruined by fear) the neo-pagan movement has emphasized connection with the natural world. So I can see that my assumption might not have been as obvious as I thought it was.

Most, but not everybody, remains Christian after leaving the LC. It's hard to get it out of your system, and many don't want to. I've noticed that people go thru kind of stages after leaving, and the longer one is out, and the stages they go thru, frees them more and more from the LC Kool-Aid they've been drinking for so long. Seems that Kool-Aid becomes integrated down to the cellular level, and is hard to get rid of. It takes time. Please don't hold it against anyone on this forum for being Christian. Let's be 'christian' toward each others differences, even IF they are not Christian, or if they are.

yes that's fair! Yeah. I chalk this up a lot to the conditioning of fear. I'll get into that later when I tell my story, which I'll probably do on the Alt views section at some point. But if there is one spiritual truth I have learned, regardless of belief system, it is the power of fear and its capacity to BE the evil it claims to be afraid of. The fear of making a mistake. The fear of being lost, somehow, of falling over some invisible edge past being rescued, because you were too stupid, and of COURSE you shouldn't have trusted yourself to know right from wrong.

I WAS that Christian who fantasized about being in spiritual warfare with people minding their own business. And I was incapacitated by fear to the point that it was difficult to enter adulthood, where you have to make choices, and no one can make them for you. I saw how crippled I was by fear.

I got tired. I was still afraid, but I was more tired by then. I realized I had to know. I had to know what I didn't know, and stop guessing or taking other peoples' word for everything. So I decided to look into the darkness (meaning the scary unknown) as it were, and face it, whatever it was. Lo and behold, not scary at all. Not nearly as scary as what fear makes people do, nor as scary as realizing no one is responsible for your life, but yourself, and you as a human being have great power and potential without necessarily certainty of wisdom to use it.

I've tried over the years, but have found Christians are hard to be around, unless I keep my mouth shut ... which is impossible. Since the local church I have low tolerance for pretend spirituality. I've been known to snap at anyone claiming they know what God wants for me, for example.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Impossible. I guess I know what that is like. This will be good practice for me in patience.

And you've lost nothing. And won't if I can help it.

*warm fuzzy* From what I hear, if you made it here, I should be okay?!


If it helps feel free to get angry at me any time. Many out here will vouch that I don't tend to get angry over any of this stuff, or our discussions, even when attacked, but I can make angry. I'm handy at that. I guess this is a case in point. lol.[/I]


Agent of chaos! :P Anger has helped me out a lot in life. But I'm at a point where I don't want to be ruled by it. If you or anyone else makes me angry, that's a choice I made....at least in part!

Now we're talking. Now I understand your paganism, to some extent anyway. I believe the gods were invented to represent unseeable forces. Poseidon is a prime example, being the god of the forces of the sea. I get it now, I hope. Question : Is paganism providing connections that you weren't connected to in the LC?

It does, but here's what you have to understand, if you can. It might make more sense when I get around to telling my story from beginning to end. To me, my polythiestic, animist way of looking at God and all creation is simply the other side of a mirror. I experienced all I could with monotheism. I couldn't squeeze out more. I HAD to go another way to continue my relationship with God (the divine or sacred by whatever name you know it), so I challenged myself.

And again, it's not like I intended to. I literally outgrew Christianity. I couldn't stay there. I see my change in religion as a rites of passage, the kind you can't stop. Sooner or later, everyone grows up. Sooner or later, everyone dies. Sooner or later, we all have to face the mysterious and find our own answers. So I did. And it took a while, but I never once have felt my relationship with God interrupted. I was very fortunate to have a good model in my mother, and my parents in general, who taught me early on that everyone has a conscience.

And she taught me the importance of hearing wisdom intuitively, "God's voice" if you will, and being able to know that rather than depending on what other people demand that it is. She would say to me, "There comes a time when every Christian has to walk alone." By that she meant that God's plan for each person is not ever going to make 100% sense to anyone else who isn't that person. So you have to learn to trust yourself, and your relationship with God.

This is just one of many spiritual truths that I learned as a Christian, that still serve me and feel like universal truths. It has saved me a lot of heartache and further prolonged abuse that I could have experienced, even by well meaning people.

I've also been able to wrestle with things as a pagan that I am pretty sure I would have had to wrestle with Christianity. I didn't just get to leave behind everything I didn't like. It was nice and a reprieve to live in a world that was not defined by or did not depend on Christianity, either positively or negatively. To live a reality where it was pretty much irrelevant. It's so influential in the world that you don't even have to be a Christian to be affected by the way it has shaped our culture and world history.

Even a Satanist only makes sense in the context of the Christian worldview, and they fully acknowledge this, which is why to them Satan is a symbol and they are actually mostly athiest. Their religion is literally a reaction against another.

When Christianity defines EVERYthing it relation to it, it is hard to get at the real meaning of things, to see things purely. You can't fit things into a world view that don't belong there. But whether people want to believe it or not, it was never the only path to God, and it is not now. It was once the shiny new thing. But it's truths weren't. The sacred wasn't. It's there as it is everywhere else when you're looking.

And sometimes a person needs a break. Sometimes it helps to see things from a different point of view. I have actually come to appreciate some things about the Bible and Christian spirituality a tad more SINCE I've become a pagan. That's because I have a better understanding of the symbols, language, and cultural background, which I wanted to have as a Christian anyway. There are parts that still resonate with me, and they mean more to me for that timelessness.

And now they stand out very clearly against the silliness that people tack on around them and obscure them with. It's like someone else here said a bit ago: Truth is truth. To that person, they have only one truth, and there are no others that can be real. To me, our truth is the same. I don't need mine to be the only way for it to have the power it does.

I've gone off on a bit of a tangent to your question; it is hard to get into the connections that I make differently. They're very personal, and I don't really want to necessarily hang them in the open to be disrespected or belittled. Pearls before swine and all that. (Pigs are smart so that's not an insult. It's just that they have little use for pearls!)

I suppose at some point it's better to do less talking and more getting to know people. I can't think of any argument that is stronger than relationship.

Me neither. But I'm delighted you gals have come here to share what you've gone thru since leaving the LC. We SHOULD be totally behind you. We should identify.[/I]

That is awesome of you to say! Likewise.

And you will, if you will please do us the honor of hanging around.


Oh, we're honored now?! *puffs chest proudly*

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Thanks to you and KindnessNotBlindness for taking the time to register and post on our forum. While I wouldn't say "this forum is only for Christians", I must tell you that the general worldview and understanding of the grand metanerrative of the vast majority of our forum members is evangelical/orthodox. Above and beyond this, I would also tell you that for many (most?) of us the answer to false religion is not to abandon the God of the Bible, or the Judeo-Christian Scriptures from which He speaks, but rather to seek Him more fervently and ever more closely through the Truth, light, grace and mercy provided for us in those very Scriptures, and the Spirit of Truth who will "guide us into all truth".

As you have already discovered, we have set up a sub-forum for discussions between folks who have a decidedly different worldview and even those who consider themselves as atheist, or at least agnostic. I think you and KnB would find yourselves much more comfortable over on AltViews. It was perfectly fine for you guys to post your opening introductions/testimonies on that this sub-forum, but for further, more comprehensive/in depth discussions, I really think AltViews is more up your alley.

Thanks again for registering and posting.

UntoHim
-

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

I am so happy you realized the LR became (maybe always was??) a manipulative system, directed and controlled by the spirit of Jezebel. Isn't it interesting (at least it is for me) in retrospect, the similarities between Lee and the pope? The RCC claims it is the one true church. The LR claims it is 'the church'. The RCC has parishes. Everywhere you go to mass in any part of the world, you recognize it as the RCC. Anywhere around the world you attend an LSM meeting, you recognize it as such and feel right at home (mostly) just as a Catholic living in the U.S. but goes to mass in Africa will feel right at home.

It's no wonder the spirit of Jezebel infiltrated the LC.
I often think of the LC in Revelation 2 when the Lord is reprimanding the church in Ephesis. They had everything going for them but lost their first LOVE. IS THERE ANY LOVE IN THE LR???

Then read what the Lord says to Thyatira...
I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray

Isn't it sad and true that many people who have left the LR don't want to have anything to do with God? But in time, people like you and me were, will be drawn back to our Father because His Love for us pulls us back to HIM.

In 1 kings, Jezebel was a pagan who worshipped false gods and idols. (no offense to the atheists who refer to themselves as pagans reading this post).

You know that Ahab, a Jewish king married Jezebel, not only a non Jewish woman but a pretty wicked, evil and controlling person. She weakened Ahab and made him afraid. That fear and his weak soul empowered her to control him. But remember Ahab DISOBEYED GOD by marrying a pagan woman in the first place! So you boys --- don't go blaming the woman for being controlling and manipulative!

That spirit of domination, controlling, manipulation, power can and has grabbed hold of both men and women's hearts throughout all history. Why have children been terrified of telling an adult of sexual or emotional abuse? They are intimidated by power. (ungodly power). Who controls this world, the banking system, the corporations, the mafia, religion institutions? MEN! The spirit of Jezebel has possessed MEN in power: The Pope is a man as are his minions. The Rothschilds, the Astors, etc.. men... oh you have women in power too, the queen of England for one.



Nor is it God's plan for anyone to be 'in church'. We are to be IN CHRIST. And that's why I don't go 'to church'. 'COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE!!' Revelation 18.

We have all been taught that believers are 'the church'. Yet are forced to 'go to church'.

We are supposed to encourage, exhort, uplift and build up one another in the Lord.

Where does it say we need to be going 'to church' to do that? But don't tell the 'churchers' you don't go to church! They will you for not going! Churchers pluck my last nerve! That said, for many who only knew the LR, going to 'church' can be good... part of the healing process.

It took me a long time to go 'to church' after leaving the LC but I needed that for a season. Partly for healing and partly for learning. Glad the Lord took me out of there too.

Shalom everyone!

Originally Posted by OnHisPath

Hi Mysteria,

I'm so proud to say that I appreciated your "huevos" reference. I read it and thought, "I wonder if she meant to say...ohhhhhhh, I see what she did there!" Glad to have your voice and perspective here. Reminds me to be a participant rather than just a lurker.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

What is MOTA? Where did the recovery say this about Madam Guyon? That explains a lot, as I heard her ideas were ascetic. Which to me, is a central problem in the recovery (some strong asceticism).
Also I want to ask about ME Barber, or whatever her name was, who mentored Watchman Nee. What do we know about her? I was told by someone in the church she was sent home as a missionary because of allegations of sexual sin by her fellow missionaries. (Of course they were saying they were false allegations.) Once she denied the allegations, she was sent back to be a missionary. And ultimately all her students left her because she was so harsh, except Nee. I wonder how long Nee was with her and what ages he was? I wonder if she was sexually inappropriate and that's why she drove most everyone away. Perhaps such a betrayal by a spiritual mentor is what partly caused Nee to act out sexually against women in the church, inspite of the fact he seemed genuinely spiritual. Do you think he was genuinely spiritual? It's all hard for me to understand, how he and Lee could be such crooks who so wronged, used, and deceived the church and yet spent so much time talking about, studying the Bible and talking about their relationships with God. It seems it must have been real for them, just mixed with some deep messed up stuff about them, and a very poor conscience. Though that confuses me too, WL seemed almost OCD about being so careful not to sin or to keep everything organized etc., and to confess everything.

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I don't get too worked out about this because it is common among Christians, and not peculiar to the LRC.

I think the fundamental problem is taking certain verses out of context. For example Paul said he does not suffer a woman to teach, and in another place says the elder sisters need to teach the younger women. Therefore you have to realize the word about not teaching is in a very specific context. The chapter talks about kings and dealing with the local government. It is literally the chapter in the NT addressed to the churches "PR department". In this chapter only those given the authority to address the government officials are to do so. This is very common today. Just because you are a cook at McDonald's doesn't give you the authority to speak on behalf of McDonald's to the press. Every large corporation understands this and practices this. Employees are informed not to speak to the press unless it is their job to do so.

I am a teacher in the NYC Department of Ed. I do not speak to the press about the DOE. The chancellor could say that she "does not suffer me to speak or teach the press". That is true. It would also be completely absurd to generalize that and say I am not to teach.

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I don't get too worked out about this because it is common among Christians, and not peculiar to the LRC.

I think the fundamental problem is taking certain verses out of context. For example Paul said he does not suffer a woman to teach, and in another place says the elder sisters need to teach the younger women. Therefore you have to realize the word about not teaching is in a very specific context. The chapter talks about kings and dealing with the local government. It is literally the chapter in the NT addressed to the churches "PR department". In this chapter only those given the authority to address the government officials are to do so. This is very common today. Just because you are a cook at McDonald's doesn't give you the authority to speak on behalf of McDonald's to the press. Every large corporation understands this and practices this. Employees are informed not to speak to the press unless it is their job to do so.

I am a teacher in the NYC Department of Ed. I do not speak to the press about the DOE. The chancellor could say that she "does not suffer me to speak or teach the press". That is true. It would also be completely absurd to generalize that and say I am not to teach.

Originally Posted by Ohio

The positive history of influential women in the recovery give the rest of them hope.

The constant ministry of condemnation causes women inside the program to believe that they are the problem and not the system they are in.

Hence ... distorted congruity! LC style.

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_E._Barber (but I think this info came from the LSM)

http://mebarber.ccws.org/letters/index.html ( I think this also came from LSM)

I could not find anything else.

Originally Posted by aron

What is incongruous to me, whether Barber was 'saintly' or 'harsh' or some combination thereof, is why are people running the LSM/lc, who won't allow women to minister, then extolling these women as pillars of the recovered church?

That goes for JPL, MG, DY, RL as well. They give these women their own web pages, trafficking on their supposed spiritual credentials, then they won't allow any woman to have any functional role?

And are people that: a) brain-dead; b) bewitched; and/or c) afraid to point out the obvious?

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Also I want to ask about ME Barber, or whatever her name was, who mentored Watchman Nee. What do we know about her? I

Originally Posted by aron

What is incongruous to me, whether Barber was 'saintly' or 'harsh' or some combination thereof, is why are people running the LSM/lc, who won't allow women to minister, then extolling these women as pillars of the recovered church?

That goes for JPL, MG, DY, RL as well. They give these women their own web pages, trafficking on their supposed spiritual credentials, then they won't allow any woman to have any functional role?

And are people that: a) brain-dead; b) bewitched; and/or c) afraid to point out the obvious?

Originally Posted by Ohio

Margaret Barber, missionary from England. Little is known about her. James Reetzke of Chicago has a booklet about her, but none of his writings are objective or unbiased.

What the allegations against Barber as missionary actually were has been largely unknown, but the missionary board was always blamed. It was said that Nee lasted the longest under her, and he was in his early 20's. Most of the early hagiography about Barber and Nee comes from Lee, and is suspect.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

What is MOTA?

Originally Posted by Ohio

for Lee and LSM to elevate her [Madame Guyon] operation in the body

Originally Posted by aron

So why did Nee have a woman mentor but "women can't teach" in the Nee/Lee church? Insert 'scratchhead' or 'baffled' icon here. . .

Originally Posted by Mysteria

Look, if this forum is only for Christians, I am fine respecting that. But I would appreciate some open, explicit clarity on that, as I have not been able to find a thorough description anywhere, nor have I been able to find a list of rules, if there is one.

Originally Posted by aron

But if you read anything by Nee or Lee you read theology heavily indebted to them. For example, Nee's first book, "Spiritual Man", was simply JP Lewis plagiarized. Later editions of the book had to acknowledge what the first did not. Both Nee & Lee plagiarized others' work, including women, and passed it off as their own.

So why did Nee have a woman mentor but "women can't teach" in the Nee/Lee church? Insert 'scratchhead' or 'baffled' icon here. . .

Originally Posted by aron

90 years ago, Dora Yu could be a lioness of the "early recovery" but today, when women can be President of the USA, they can't speak except "under the covering", i.e. abject servility. . . ? And don't tell me that Barber or Penn-Lewis had some male "covering" - they didn't.

How can an intelligent, college-educated female sit there in the FTTA & not wonder at this? How can anyone not wonder at this?

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Just so you know, I have never read anything by JP Lewis or Margaret Barber, Madame Guyon, or Mary McDonough...

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

I know Nee had a woman mentor. Was it Margaret Barber? In any case, I have never read anything on Nee's mentor. I think I read where he would go to her house for mentoring/teaching and she would shoo him away until he 'got' whatever she was trying to get through to him. Something like that....

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

I don't think Lee had a woman mentor. In fact, I think he disliked women. He never mentioned his wife that I recall. He never praised/complimented any sister....

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

I have also never studied or read on the revivals. Revivals never have interested me. They're like hurricanes. They come with power and strength and then when they make landfall, they fall apart.

Originally Posted by awareness

Became my foot. Jessie Penn Lewis was a Jezebel that killed the Welsh Revival. And her spirit was in Nee and Lee. So the LR didn't become of the Jezebel spirit. It began that way. I think it plugged right into the Chinese culture, that subjugates women from childhood.

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

I am so happy you realized the LR became (maybe always was??) a manipulative system, directed and controlled by the spirit of Jezebel.

Originally Posted by aron

The LSM/lc programme is immersive and all-encompassing. For years after I left them physically, and met with other Christians, I'd sit in a meeting and I'd think, "Hmpf - that's not God's economy".

My own path led me, eventually, through a very wonderful 'functionally agnostic' period where I forgot all about God, learned to think again, and learned to take responsibility for my own emotional well-being instead of being co-dependent on some manipulative system.

Originally Posted by aron

How can an intelligent, college-educated female sit there in the FTTA & not wonder at this? How can anyone not wonder at this?

Originally Posted by HERn

Hi KNB. I think I read that you had a connection to Houston. Did you know a brother Marcus? He was a dear friend. Don't have to answer here, you can PM me if you want.

Originally Posted by Ohio

He tried to tell you, but you decided that the scriptures were "flawed."

Originally Posted by Mysteria

I am not surprised if ex sisters aren't sticking around, if this is the normal climate. Although I know it is usually not intentional, the aggressive, domineering way men are socialized to interact and push a point is often a turn off to women who are looking for space to not have to take care of others, couch everything they say in the most diplomatic terms possible, and pretend to not actually be sure of what they are saying when they are. That is what WE are socialized to do.

And it gets exhausting, especially when you are in need of expressing deep hurts and baggage like everyone else. When this happens enough, women often end up seeking women-only spaces. That is one very likely factor, just if you were wondering.

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

For a variety of reasons, including the anti-Western movement of the 1920s, many Chinese Christian leaders were seeking ways to form indigenous churches that would be free from Western missionary control. Having moved to the International Settlement in Shanghai in 1926, Ni constituted in 1932 a group of “apostolic” co-workers that would lead what became the Little Flock Movement: Wang Peizhen (Peace Wang) and Li Yuanru (Ruth Lee), with Ni himself as supreme. They soon grew from a small household gathering to a network of local churches.

By G. Wright Doyle, Director, Global China Center; English Editor, Biographical Dictionary of Chinese Christianity, Charlottesville, Virginia, USA.

Originally Posted by awareness

The old 'only God knows the grand plan' routine. I remember that. It never added up. Even when I was a dyed in the wool LC believer it didn't make sense. I mean, if God has a grand plan, why keep it to Himself?

Originally Posted by Ohio

Not easy to steal your lines bro.

For those who believe God (Hebrews chapter 11 provides a brief summary of some long before 500BC), the Problem of Evil is not a problem, rather an admission that "His ways are not our ways."

Originally Posted by awareness

Most, but not everybody, remains Christian after leaving the LC. It's hard to get it out of your system, and many don't want to. I've noticed that people go thru kind of stages after leaving, and the longer one is out, and the stages they go thru, frees them more and more from the LC Kool-Aid they've been drinking for so long. Seems that Kool-Aid becomes integrated down to the cellular level, and is hard to get rid of. .

Originally Posted by awareness

You took the words right outta me mouth bro Ohio.

The problem of evil has been a question since 500 years before Jesus. Maybe longer, but no record of it, so far ; and it's caused lots of believers to become atheists.

I'm pleased to see you embrace Kindness. She's not just a believer that became an atheist, she's a LCer that became an atheist (and I think she's better off).

She reminds me of your favorite leading Bible scholar, Dr. Bart Ehrman. The POE threw him too. From what I've read out here he went from a devoted born again to an atheist because of the problem of evil (he actually embraces agnosticism, if anything - but he sure knows his Bible inside and out (that's what tripped up his belief that the Bible is the inerrant inspired Word of God).

Hey, maybe sister Kindness can resurrect the POE thread, way way down in the sub-forum in the dungeon of AltVs (right next to Tartarus, methinks). That would be cool.

Originally Posted by Ohio

KnB, these are very difficult questions to answer, and a very difficult subject for many people.

On the thread "The Problem of Evil" in the Alternative Views Sub-Forum we explored this topic for some time with many diverse viewpoints, in case you are interested.

Originally Posted by Mysteria

Thank you, aron. I don't know if everyone here shares your openness. But good on you being evangelical and still so thoughtful and open.

I certainly intend to stick around, but that depends on whether or not I'm allowed to. Once again, if I could find the rules anywhere, that would be helpful. I'm sure not everyone appreciates me referencing "huevos." LOL I can talk good...I promise!

Originally Posted by KindnessNotBlindness

If "God" has the key to Hades and he defeated the Devil then why am I hearing on the news about a 3 year girl clinging to her mother's lifeless body when she died in a flood. I am the victim of a sexual assault and I can promise you "God" was NOT there and neither was Satan. I was alone. No it did not make me a stronger person. I felt abandoned by this "God" that I had worshipped and loved and thought loved me.

Originally Posted by KindnessNotBlindness

Why did God stand up when Peter [Stephen] was being stoned instead of saving him from that fate? I don't know. A Black man gets shot in the back eight times. Oh, no! Let's pray to God. Why? He saw him get stoned, get shot, watches children die of cancer, watches the mentally ill die prematurely because they are too ill to properly take care of themselves. Satan gets blamed for all the bad God allows to happen. He cannot be real. Cannot be.

Originally Posted by Mysteria

I screwed up too. It just took a moment for me to return from hulk form.

Awareness, I am sorry that I misread your question and assumed it was hostile.

Originally Posted by Mysteria

And I apologize to EVERYONE here for similarly assuming the worst. I am embarrassed.

Originally Posted by Mysteria

The truth is, several people have mentioned that this forum is mostly Christian, and I felt initially so discouraged and bummed out by that I was reading everything through that lens.

Originally Posted by Mystica

I have not been around a group of Christians for a while now.

Originally Posted by Mysteria

I *am* able to admit when I'm wrong even though I don't like doing it. :P I sometimes have to have the tantrum first. I'm sorry, Awareness. I just didn't want to lose what I thought I'd just found.

Originally Posted by Mystica

I assume everyone has noticed I have some slight anger issues...LOL

Originally Posted by Mystica

Okay, to briefly touch on your question, as I'm about to leave and I want to give more thought to it, I don't believe the gods are "real" in the sense that I once believed in Jesus. I (and this is common, actually) accept them as facets and manifestations of the divine, AND at the same time hold space for them as being merely archetypes. I'm of a similar opinion that something doesn't have to be objectively real to be useful, and since none of us can prove anything anyway, except that what one believes does in some respect shape the world around them and their experience of it, I've made it a conscious choice because it makes me happy.

Originally Posted by Mysteria

I'm so happy and excited people here actually want to know about mine and other beliefs...and I'm also humbled, because I wasn't expecting that.

Originally Posted by Mysteria

Please ya'll forgive me for being awkward. I got a little spooked, that's all. I do very much want to get to know all of you.

Originally Posted by HERn

Hi KNB! Loved reading your posts. Your observations are spot on as far as my experience goes. Talk about snootiness, at my final conference I noted that well after the singing started the being blinded ones sashayed into the meeting with the elders and the wanting to be blinded brothers with their glum, grumpy, almost never smiling fake gravitas mugs to sit on the reserved front rows. Kind of like royalty. I'm so glad there isn't a clergy class of people in the LSM's recovery movement!

I worked for three years as an instructor at a historically back university in the south and on several occasions wished my white skin was darker. I would sit in the sun during lunch trying to get some color so I wouldn't look so white. It was a good experience for me to feel different and noticing my feeling of wanting to be like others.

Thanks for taking the time to drop in and and share your experiences.

All the best and happiness to you and your family.

Originally Posted by Nell

Hi KNB,

From another one-of-few women on the forum, Welcome! I'm a lilly-white former baptist but I try not to take that too seriously. I was in the LC for about 15 years in Houston, New Orleans, Austin, Oklahoma City, Minneapolis, San Antonio, then OUT! I think that's all

I'm sorry for all you've suffered in your life. I can't even imagine the pain you've experienced. I have been helped by the Lord in the last few years to put some of this insanity into perspective.

I'm retired now, but I worked most of my life in the technology industry. For the last few years I was a network engineer. As such, I developed a "mind-set" to solve technical problems. On a big computer network, there are sometimes "big problems." Big problems most often can't be solved by one person, or on a superficial level. An often used term is "root cause." You have to find the root cause of a problem before you can hope to solve it.

The problems you have eloquently described in your 2 posts are so big that they are hard to understand much less solve. Where do you start? The root cause is so well hidden that ultimately people turn away from God altogether because He started this whole mess, so it must be His fault. As you have noted, most of the ugliness is man-centric and most definitely ungodly.

The Bible helped me to put this big problem in its place and this has become my perspective of the root cause:

Gen. 3:14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

The Serpent was cursed by God because he deceived the woman. (As an excuse to mistreat women, some will try to tell you that the woman, Eve, was cursed because she was deceived. Before you buy into that, demand proof. Scriptural proof that Eve was cursed. I can't find such a verse.) The Serpent was cursed because he lied to the woman. He's still lying. Because God cursed him, He was enraged with a seething, bitter hatred of the woman which would worsen until he meets his final end (as God told him he would). The Serpent determined to take revenge on her and do her in before he experienced the final bruise of his own head. That also means, the Serpent has determined to take revenge on YOU before you can bruise his disgusting head.

KNB, you have told us about your experience of this raging, bitter hatred perpetrated by the Serpent and carried out by mankind. In your two posts, you have described it to perfection. Your story of pain and suffering, perpetrated by others upon you could not have originated in the hearts of man...it's too evil. It must be the evil nature of Satan himself who masterminded his revenge upon you. How do we know this for sure? Genesis 3 is clear. Got put enmity between the woman and the Serpent. You could say that God made you and the Serpent enemies and the Serpent declared WAR on you. This war has been declared by the Serpent, but his boots on the ground are worn by men and sometimes other women...even Christians. He is coming after you, and he is unrelenting. He is still deceiving men and women to carry out his hatred on women and men of the world. He truly hates all mankind.

Yet the Serpent is doomed. He was defeated on the cross of Jesus! Past tense. He was defeated. But his final end is yet to come when he is thrown into the lake of fire. Regardless, he is doomed and, KNB, IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT. At least in his own pathetic mind, he blames you. In fact, his fate is self-inflicted. He stuck it to himself.

So, there's my take on the root cause for all that is wrong in this world. You described it to perfection and there it is in the Bible...in the very beginning it's spelled out. If you want to review how it all ends, check out Revelation 12. It's a woman! Maybe you, me and CMW are part of that Revelation 12 woman. I don't know how it's all going to shake down, but there are many opinions, mostly by men who think they know everything. They don't. Some think they have the be-all-end-all interpretation of the Bible. They don't. We'll know when it actually happens.

I hope this helps.

Nell

Originally Posted by KindnessNotBlindness

I'm not sure why there is a need to be condescending especially intentionally so. That's a little too aggressive for my liking. I can appreciate other people's views and even debate as long as it's profitable. You teach me, I teach you. Or you don't teach me and I don't teach you but we get our points across with civility. I don't think it's fair to label someone's Gods as figments of the imagination because that would mean your God is a figment of the imagination as well. I can assure both of you have good arguments to prove your point. I do personally know Mysteria and she has been out of the LC longer than me and has faced opposition even passive aggressive remarks from me when I was still in. It is hard to leave the LC when you grow up in it and it is all you know. When you leave there is great abandonment and you can only return if you "come back into the fold". I do think she is ready to have a blog because of her experiences and how much she had to overcome to be at peace. She is literally one of the smartest people I know so she can definitely hold her own but respect is a pretty classy thing. I'm into it. Peace to all!

Originally Posted by awareness

Okay, I understand now. The pagan gods are real to you. Which ones? All of them? I guess I've been spoiled. I'm a big fan of mythology, and have read many books on it, many by Joseph Campbell, the MOTA of a different sort, the Mythologist of the Age ; books like "A Hero with a Thousand Faces," and "Masks of God" - 4 books : Primitive Mythology, Oriental Mythology, Occidental Mythology, and Creative Mythology. They cover the whole gambit of gods, all the way back to the first and only universal religion on planet earth (that we know about): Animism.

So my question about your paganism, and gods that are figments was no big deal to me. There are thousands of them. All the mega-myths of old, that provided cohesion to early civilizations, are now considered false constructs, or figments if you will. But even tho they were false they were still functional. Beliefs don't have to be real to produce positive results. Early civilization builders believed that the purpose of humans were to serve the gods, and that their leader was God's representative on earth. So they served the leader. We have the Pyramids because of those beliefs. They were false beliefs, but still worked to build civilizations.

I was honestly hoping you would tell me what you like about paganism. But okay. I screwed up, and called your gods phony. You don't know me yet, but I've said that out here about the depiction of God in the Old Testament ... and in the book of Revelation. I think those are phony depictions of God ... and have taken heat for saying it, as expected.

I don't have any problems discussing these kinds of things. And I know it upsets believers. But that's where I have arrived after years of coming out of the local church. Just as you have arrived at paganism, and your friend Kindness, that has arrived at atheism (to no gods whatsoever).

I guess we all have different paths. I think I've pointed that out with exLCer friends that I have.

Maybe we just got off on the wrong foot. My bad. Sorry. Let's try again.

Originally Posted by Mysteria

Awesome! I would love to know more about what you're learning.

I know the Bible better than the average person, given my upbringing...but I've been away from it for a while.

Originally Posted by Mysteria

You can be as condescending as you like. I can also take it. I just don't put up with it. It kinda doesn't seem like you can, though...

I *am* a little raw, true, particularly after the things coming up from joining here and what it brings back. As to not being "ready," it's been years since I was in the LC. I've done plenty of processing. I would not say I'm easily offended, and I'm certainly knowledgeable about the topic. Also, I love discussing it when people are interested.

What I'm struggling to understand is why you would be surprised that question would be offensive? I realize that most of the time when people say things like what I listed, they have no idea they are being offensive. But I feel like for thinking people, it should not be too much of a stretch to consider their words when talking to someone of a different background. Sure we can discuss it openly. But I have to say, I don't quite understand exactly why you would not think that telling a person their religion involves fake deities might not be offensive, and even deliberate?

Originally Posted by KindnessNotBlindness

Nell, thanks so much for your response. Nothing wrong with being lilly white. Ha! There was certainly something wrong with being Black in the church life. Specifically a Black sister but I know a lot of Black brothers who are unhappy and fight against the saints worldly stereotypes that they have deemed to be true. Also to clarify not only am I atheist but I don't align with a political group and never vote. I have friends from all racial backgrounds. I reiterate that I do not want to be persuaded back to Christianity as I have my own issues with Christians and their hypocritical, elitist behavior. I really think without religion and spirituality this world would be a much better, a much healthier and happier place to live. I do not read the Bible anymore because I promise you it's a comical read to me. Peace to you!

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

I have read about Lilith btw.. I have not done an indepth study to formulate my thoughts but just wanted to let you know I know all about Lilith.. or used to! It's been a while I have read that account.

I am currently doing a study on 'the seed of the serpent' though and the 'synagogue of Satan'.

Mysteria wrote:


Good question!
I am reading through the OT with some friends. I have an understanding what took place. I am learning a lot and seeing things I never saw before. An answer to your question would be long winded from me and I don't want to be long winded.

Originally Posted by Mysteria

I have also already had the comment that I follow a religion that has deities "we" now "know" are figments of the imagination. Also rude, condescending, and therefore not receiving a response.

Originally Posted by Mysteria

T
First, in the Hebrew scriptures, lore and mythology out of which the Bible stories in Christianity came, Eve is not even Adam's first wife: it is Lilith.

Originally Posted by Mysteria

Hurting for you Countmeworthy and your experiences here. Living with chronic pain...I can't even begin to imagine. for 17 years!!!! I am glad you find comfort in your relationship with God.

Originally Posted by Nell

Hi KNB,

From another one-of-few women on the forum, Welcome! I'm a lilly-white former baptist but I try not to take that too seriously. I was in the LC for about 15 years in Houston, New Orleans, Austin, Oklahoma City, Minneapolis, San Antonio, then OUT! I think that's all

I'm sorry for all you've suffered in your life. I can't even imagine the pain you've experienced. I have been helped by the Lord in the last few years to put some of this insanity into perspective.

I'm retired now, but I worked most of my life in the technology industry. For the last few years I was a network engineer. As such, I developed a "mind-set" to solve technical problems. On a big computer network, there are sometimes "big problems." Big problems most often can't be solved by one person, or on a superficial level. An often used term is "root cause." You have to find the root cause of a problem before you can hope to solve it.

The problems you have eloquently described in your 2 posts are so big that they are hard to understand much less solve. Where do you start? The root cause is so well hidden that ultimately people turn away from God altogether because He started this whole mess, so it must be His fault. As you have noted, most of the ugliness is man-centric and most definitely ungodly.

The Bible helped me to put this big problem in its place and this has become my perspective of the root cause:

Gen. 3:14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

The Serpent was cursed by God because he deceived the woman. (As an excuse to mistreat women, some will try to tell you that the woman, Eve, was cursed because she was deceived. Before you buy into that, demand proof. Scriptural proof that Eve was cursed. I can't find such a verse.) The Serpent was cursed because he lied to the woman. He's still lying. Because God cursed him, He was enraged with a seething, bitter hatred of the woman which would worsen until he meets his final end (as God told him he would). The Serpent determined to take revenge on her and do her in before he experienced the final bruise of his own head. That also means, the Serpent has determined to take revenge on YOU before you can bruise his disgusting head.

KNB, you have told us about your experience of this raging, bitter hatred perpetrated by the Serpent and carried out by mankind. In your two posts, you have described it to perfection. Your story of pain and suffering, perpetrated by others upon you could not have originated in the hearts of man...it's too evil. It must be the evil nature of Satan himself who masterminded his revenge upon you. How do we know this for sure? Genesis 3 is clear. Got put enmity between the woman and the Serpent. You could say that God made you and the Serpent enemies and the Serpent declared WAR on you. This war has been declared by the Serpent, but his boots on the ground are worn by men and sometimes other women...even Christians. He is coming after you, and he is unrelenting. He is still deceiving men and women to carry out his hatred on women and men of the world. He truly hates all mankind.

Yet the Serpent is doomed. He was defeated on the cross of Jesus! Past tense. He was defeated. But his final end is yet to come when he is thrown into the lake of fire. Regardless, he is doomed and, KNB, IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT. At least in his own pathetic mind, he blames you. In fact, his fate is self-inflicted. He stuck it to himself.

So, there's my take on the root cause for all that is wrong in this world. You described it to perfection and there it is in the Bible...in the very beginning it's spelled out. If you want to review how it all ends, check out Revelation 12. It's a woman! Maybe you, me and CMW are part of that Revelation 12 woman. I don't know how it's all going to shake down, but there are many opinions, mostly by men who think they know everything. They don't. Some think they have the be-all-end-all interpretation of the Bible. They don't. We'll know when it actually happens.

I hope this helps.

Nell

Originally Posted by aron

I've been looking for other voices to find this forum for a long time. Hope you stick around.

#1 If there is a God, then He/She/It/Them probably is kooler with people who "don't believe", at least overtly/consciously, than with people who ram-rod their concepts down every one else's throats. That's my two cents, as an "evangelical Christian". Card-carrying, to boot.

Being nice is not theology, it is behavior, repeated behavior.

#2 It is good to hear from those who don't see things the way that you do. I really appreciate other perspectives. Even though I still call myself an evangelical Christian, my idea of the "gospel" has drastically changed over the past 5 years (I've been out of the LC for about 15 years). So how do I know it won't continue to evolve? Why be dogmatic? Jesus taught, do unto others . . . so if I want others to listen to me, I have to listen to others. Basic stuff here.

#3 We really need your voices to "speak truth to power" here, because the Christian view imho has been very very warped by temporal, earthly power, for centuries. It is worth noting that Jesus was offered temporal earthly power repeatedly, and repeatedly refused it.

"The crowd wanted to make Him king, but Jesus refused it"

and

"He continually withdrew"

and

"Who made me ruler over you?" (to the one who wanted Jesus to tell someone else to do something).

and

"Whoever wants to be great, be the last in stature"

etc.

So alternative views give us a chance to live what we talk. To treat "others" as if they was "us". Cuz they is "us".

Originally Posted by KindnessNotBlindness

I do not read the Bible anymore because I promise you it's a comical read to me. Peace to you!

Originally Posted by Mysteria

I'd appreciate clarity. I would like to stick around, but if this really is just LC-Lite, then I really don't belong here.

Originally Posted by KindnessNotBlindness

Aron, thank you for the response. l am not a man hater and interestingly enough I had no problem with brothers leading. I had problems with the corruption, elitism, and entitlement the brothers embodied while taking the lead. Along with them trying to counsel others and they had no light or discernment. Very, very troubling!

Originally Posted by KindnessNotBlindness

Aron, thank you for the response. l am not a man hater and interestingly enough I had no problem with brothers leading. I had problems with the corruption, elitism, and entitlement the brothers embodied while taking the lead. Along with them trying to counsel others and they had no light or discernment. Very, very troubling!

Originally Posted by Nell

So, there's my take on the root cause for all that is wrong in this world. You described it to perfection and there it is in the Bible...in the very beginning it's spelled out. If you want to review how it all ends, check out Revelation 12. It's a woman! Maybe you, me and CMW are part of that Revelation 12 woman.

Originally Posted by Nell

SoI don't know how it's all going to shake down, but there are many opinions, mostly by men who think they know everything. They don't. Some think they have the be-all-end-all interpretation of the Bible. They don't. We'll know when it actually happens.

Originally Posted by KindnessNotBlindness

Zeek, thank you so much for the welcome. Before I respond to your question I will just say that being atheist has brought me so much peace after 34 years, I'm 36, of being in the "church life" and do not want to be persuaded back to religion. I think the transition was inevitable as I felt "God" or any other supreme being is wicked for letting people suffer and blame it on "Satan". I asked my mother if she would ever be okay with me dying or anything bad happening to me. If she would stop me from being harmed would she. I knew the answer to that question but I asked. If "God" has the key to Hades and he defeated the Devil then why am I hearing on the news about a 3 year girl clinging to her mother's lifeless body when she died in a flood. I am the victim of a sexual assault and I can promise you "God" was NOT there and neither was Satan. I was alone. No it did not make me a stronger person. I felt abandoned by this "God" that I had worshipped and loved and thought loved me. Things happen, I believe, for no other reason then things happen. Also, as a psych nurse who treats patients with auditory and visual hallucinations and see patients who are hyperreligious or who get on their knees to pray to a God who does not, will not, and cannot heal their sick minds I can assure you I no longer believe in this Hallucination. Being "in the Spirit" to me is a contagious phenomenon. Mind over matter, if you will. Reading the Bible I feel as though my patients could have written it and it would be the same. Just my opinion. Leaving religion behind was so freeing to me. I find that other atheist are wonderful people with good morals and good ethics. They tend to be nonjudgmental and kind to others. It is interesting to be a Black woman who was first in the LC and now atheist because I felt judged in the church life and now judged as an atheist because most Black people are raised in the church. There are more who are becoming atheist and I am happy this is occurring!

Originally Posted by KindnessNotBlindness

Zeek, thank you so much for the welcome. Before I respond to your question I will just say that being atheist has brought me so much peace after 34 years, I'm 36, of being in the "church life" and do not want to be persuaded back to religion. I think the transition was inevitable as I felt "God" or any other supreme being is wicked for letting people suffer and blame it on "Satan". I asked my mother if she would ever be okay with me dying or anything bad happening to me. If she would stop me from being harmed would she. I knew the answer to that question but I asked. If "God" has the key to Hades and he defeated the Devil then why am I hearing on the news about a 3 year girl clinging to her mother's lifeless body when she died in a flood. I am the victim of a sexual assault and I can promise you "God" was NOT there and neither was Satan. I was alone. No it did not make me a stronger person. I felt abandoned by this "God" that I had worshipped and loved and thought loved me. Things happen, I believe, for no other reason then things happen. Also, as a psych nurse who treats patients with auditory and visual hallucinations and see patients who are hyperreligious or who get on their knees to pray to a God who does not, will not, and cannot heal their sick minds I can assure you I no longer believe in this Hallucination. Being "in the Spirit" to me is a contagious phenomenon. Mind over matter, if you will. Reading the Bible I feel as though my patients could have written it and it would be the same. Just my opinion. Leaving religion behind was so freeing to me. I find that other atheist are wonderful people with good morals and good ethics. They tend to be nonjudgmental and kind to others. It is interesting to be a Black woman who was first in the LC and now atheist because I felt judged in the church life and now judged as an atheist because most Black people are raised in the church. There are more who are becoming atheist and I am happy this is occurring!

Originally Posted by KindnessNotBlindness

I will just say that being atheist has brought me so much peace after 34 years, I'm 36, of being in the "church life" and do not want to be persuaded back to religion. I think the transition was inevitable as I felt "God" or any other supreme being is wicked for letting people suffer and blame it on "Satan". /. I am the victim of a sexual assault and I can promise you "God" was NOT there and neither was Satan. I was alone. ....

Also, as a psych nurse who treats patients with auditory and visual hallucinations and see patients who are hyperreligious or who get on their knees to pray to a God who does not, will not, and cannot heal their sick minds I can assure you I no longer believe in this Hallucination. Being "in the Spirit" to me is a contagious phenomenon.

It is interesting to be a Black woman who was first in the LC and now atheist because I felt judged in the church life and now judged as an atheist because most Black people are raised in the church. There are more who are becoming atheist and I am happy this is occurring!

Originally Posted by KindnessNotBlindness

Hi. I am new on here and joined after a sister I grew up with in the Recovery stumbled upon here. She too no longer meets. I was nervous about posting here because I am atheist and I do not want to be offensive to anyone. I am happy as an atheist. I do not know if there are many Black former saints on this forum. The reason I say that is because we are a minority in the church life and I would love to know if others share my experience.