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03-04-2017 02:10 AM

aron

Re: My story and a plead for your insight

Drake,

You're right; I probably oversimplified in my reaction; the very thing which I held that you'd done, in saying, "Just repeat this and you will be fine". (But you have to admit that the LCM oeuvre is full of such sloganeering!) Please forgive me if I mistakenly saw something in your post which wasn't actually there.

But then, one could also say,

Quote:

I realized that we all need to stay away from evil mind control cults claiming that they alone have God's provenance whilst all other assemblies are devoid of Christ, and I saw that we should hold ALL scripture as inspired by God and not merely those portions of scripture that we can align with a recently created remnant dispensationalist theology.

If we simply do this, then everything should be fine. Thanks for your clarifying comments.

03-03-2017 02:44 PM

Drake

Re: My story and a plead for your insight

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

Drake,

In referencing Tasinee, you wrote, "Just repeat this and you will be fine", which is the oversimplification that i remember so well. And the fact that many who leave and are dis-oriented, and this may indicate mind control techniques at work, reinforces my idea. "Just call O Lord" and everything bad vanishes like majick, and those who point out that bad stuff remains will themselves vanish like magick. Quarantined- pouf!

But i do repent, and expect refreshings to come. And as Paul wrote to the Galatians, i do hope to change my tone (4:20).

aron,

I personally never received much help by just repeating words. But then neither do I receive much help when I am just mental about things. A bad attitude can also be a barrier to His blessing. When I said, "just repeat this and you will be fine" I referred to the whole of the experience tasinee described.

"So, I realized that, and I repented, and opened my heart to Him, to heal my wounds and restore my heart into relationship with Him. I spontaneously started calling upon His name and opening to Him when I had a moment of solitude, and I felt so refreshed, like I haven't for a long time."

I realized, I repented, I opened my heart, I asked, I desired a relationship, I spontaneously, I called on His name, I opened some more... and then I felt so refreshed like haven't for a long time.

It does not get any better than that in touching the Lord. Wouldn't you agree? I think if you would set aside all the bad things that have happened in your life, all the negative thoughts, just toss them into the lake of fire so to speak, or lay them at the Lord's feet and allow Him to do what he wants with them. and in a moment of solitude touch the Lord in the same way as tasinee did then you would agree also that the Lord's refreshing is the choicest of experiences from Him.

That is what I was encouraging tasinee to repeat. Tasinee would then be fine, you would be fine, and I would be fine.

Drake

03-03-2017 02:10 PM

aron

Re: My story and a plead for your insight

03-03-2017 01:53 PM

Drake

Re: My story and a plead for your insight

aron" Nothing in Tasinee's point was lacking."

Okay aron.

I thought tasinee's refreshing experience was a good reminder to us all. An out of the mouth of babes reminder. I addressed you because you referenced tasinee's comment in what appeared to be a way of discounting it and in the act of discounting you seemed less than refreshed, a type of contra indication of tasinee's renewal toward the Lord.

Sometimes, in the heat of different viewpoints we forget that we are all brothers and sisters here. You may disagree with me and my viewpoints and vice-versa but I think it prudent and wise not to dismiss the positive experience that draws one closer to the Lord especially from one who is tender to the Lord in a moment. I do not want, and neither do I think you want, to discourage or stumble such a one but would rather affirm the simple yet significant touch with the Lord.

This is a forum with many places to express our viewpoints. Not every thread needs to be a platform or a "speaker's corner" or an occasion to do it.

Have a very refreshing weekend,
Drake

03-03-2017 12:31 PM

aron

Re: My story and a plead for your insight

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

What you refuse to acknowledge is the context for his refreshing experience.

surely I need to repent. Surely. Jesus taught, "Forgive us our trespasses..."; don't I need to apply this, and ask forgiveness? Nothing in Tasinee's point was lacking.

But where in that do we address the chaos that she saw in the LCM? Does it all just go away by calling "Oh Lord Jeeezus" a number of times? Or "aaaayyyemaeennnn..." a few times? Where is the refreshing, there? And the injustice stands? The wrong teachings remain wrong?

Nothing in Tasinee's experience was wrong, per se. But nothing in mine was addressed by Drake. Just avoided. "Call O Lord Jeeeezus". . .

When I came to the word, and saw Christ, as the writer of Hebrews did (2:9) and it was in texts which Lee panned as "fallen and natural", telling us all they were just the natural expression of the self-absorbed David and the erroneous compilers of the OT text, then I had a choice. Do I just call "O Lord" and go on, pretending I didn't see Jesus? Or do I say, like Luther, "Here I stand"? Clearly I took the second route. But nothing in my stand obviates seasons of refreshing. In fact it is a continuation.

But as Drake said, that is my opinion. He and the rest of the LCM have Lee's opinion. I don't have any problem with that.

And as I've said before, I do apologize, and repent, if the tenor of my posts was wrong. I am not perfect, nor do I presume perfect understanding. My spirit is probably not so pure. But I attempt, here, to point to the One who is. That is my stand.

03-03-2017 11:58 AM

TLFisher

Re: My story and a plead for your insight

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

Here are my reasons. The Jesus found in the LCM looks nothing like the Jesus found in the four gospels. The gospel Jesus cared for the poor, the weak, the hungry, the sick, the imprisoned, the widows and orphans. All this was consistent with Jewish practice and custom. Jesus walked the walk, not just paid lip service.

On contrast, the LCM Jesus tells us, "Don't waste your time: go after the 'good building material', the young naive college students."

The Jesus in the gospel taught that if you get a chance to give without repayment, do so: you will be repaid in the resurrection of the righteous. The LCM Jesus isn't interested in any investment that doesn't bring immediate return. "That doesn't build the Body", they say. Only invest in what will promote the ministry in the short term. Good works are dead. Contrast that to the Jesus testified by Peter, who "went around doing good" (Acts 10:38).

I could go on: The Jesus of the gospels didn't pan scripture as written by fallen human emotions, vainly trying to be good. No, Jesus said it was written under the inspiration of the holy Spirit and was concerning Him, the Messiah promised by God. But the Jesus of the LCM says that much scripture is actually vain, fallen, natural concepts. Only the Processed and Consummated Triune God will do for the LCM Jesus. Seven-fold grace. The obedience of Jesus, as a pattern to all is ignored as an interpretive template.

Or the fallen human culture. I've already dealt with this elsewhere. See "The Asian Mind and the Western Mind" for example. Culture is panned in the LCM, except where it is Chinese-flavored. Then it gets a free pass.

Or human exaltation. "Let him be the least who wants to be first" is abandoned to an eastern-tinged "One Guru per Age" theme.

Or receiving one another. Only those submissive to LCM leadership get received.

Or corruption and nepotism. Suddenly "drunken Noah" appeared in the New Testament church.
Etc.

Emphasis mine for the last two. That is very much the case. Submissive means you don't question. You don't raise concerns. Once you do, there may be a scarlet letter reserved for you as Ohio indicated in his post. Oh the brothers and sisters know this unspoken rule of etiquette. That's why a brother may say it's better to stick his head in the sand like an ostrich. If you can't do that, suddenly "trust" becomes a requisite for receiving. "Oh we love brother so and so, but we can't trust him."
"Drunken Noah" you say? Cover the brothers seems to be an overriding them over the years.

Her prophets have smeared whitewash for them, seeing false visions and divining lies for them, saying, ‘Thus says the Lord God,’ when the Lord has not spoken. Ezekiel 22:28

Whenever I hear the phrase "cover the brothers", I think of issues being covered over; whitewashed.

03-03-2017 11:40 AM

Ohio

Re: My story and a plead for your insight

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

aron,

what is it about tasinee's refreshing experience that is lacking?

Drake

What you refuse to acknowledge is the context for his refreshing experience.

03-03-2017 11:30 AM

Drake

Re: My story and a plead for your insight

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

But where in my post was the suggestion not to repent, turn, call?

Otherwise, you seem to be saying, "Don't worry about righteousness, or truth. Just call "O Lord Jeeezus three times" . . or if the untruth or unrighteousness is really egregious, then call "O Lord Jeeeezus" six times. And then everything will be fine.

Um, no.

aron,

what is it about tasinee's refreshing experience that is lacking?

Drake

03-03-2017 11:04 AM

aron

Re: My story and a plead for your insight

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

No where in scripture are we instructed to apply new standards of scrutiny to the scripture itself..

This was the heart of my argument. How can we say that we are "closely following the apostles" when we're treading such a path of novelty? When the only thing supporting this new approach is one interpreter's logic, buttressed by a culture of unquestioning obedience to his speaking?

If his speaking today speaking contradicts yesterday's, Oh well. If it contradicts scripture, Oh well. If it isn't consistent, Oh well. If it bothers your conscience, Oh well.

When the only way to survive in such a system is not to question, not to notice, be an ostrich with your head in the sand, then it's a mind control cult. A christian one, yes. But the Mormons also name Jesus as Lord. So do the Moonies. And the Rastafarians. And they all deviate from the simple gospel message. God loved us, and sent His Son. Repent, believe and be saved. Then obey, and follow.

And all the "fallen Christians" of the RCC, the EO, the Baptists and Lutherans and the new-fangled churches being "planted' are often deformed, as Lee and company so often mention. But you know what? If Pastor Bob down at the Community Church starts to imagine himself the Apostle of the Age, or re-interpret scripture in ways antagonistic to 2,000 years of Christian understanding, then you can just leave. In the LCM you can't. You've already either tacitly or overtly admitted there's no where else to go, and those who leave are destined to wander Christless upon the earth. So no wonder there's some confusion, discouragement, and disorientation when people do leave.

03-03-2017 10:56 AM

aron

Re: My story and a plead for your insight

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

aron,

I am not trying to dissuade you from your opinion.

I am just saying that you, I, and all believers need the experience what tasinee described, that is, we all need the times of refreshing from the Lord.

I did not say follow me, or Brother Lee, or anyone else. I said follow tasinee's lead because there is a proven method of turning, repenting, contacting, and refreshing.

You can have it all figured out but if you do not have that, then what's the point?

Drake

03-03-2017 09:39 AM

Drake

Re: My story and a plead for your insight

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

Drake,

Thanks for the advice, but my refreshment comes from the scripture, not my alignment with a ministry and the interpretation it promulgates. Which Lord do they call on in the LCM?

I see a glaring discrepancy between scripture and the ministry that purports to interpret it for all and sundry. Where does scripture write itself off by the dozens of chapters, as "fallen" and "vain" and "natural concepts"? If it were so, it wouldn't be scripture, would it?

Instead we got blind adherence to the ministry. We can pan the scripture as vain concepts, but don't question the ministry, the brothers, the current speaking, or the current leading from Anaheim. What Lord are we calling on, here, that's behind this encouragement? What kind of thinking is at work?

And despising the poor and the weak. What Lord is behind this? And displaying contempt for all but those who are abjectly servile to oneself. What spirit is at work, here?

I'll be glad to call on the Lord, but not that one. But thanks anyway.

And it may seem that I've caused a snit over a few chapters of the Bible. But it's not a few but a few dozen, and not just one book but several, including the New Testament. I see a clear pattern and the establishment of a precedent, where the word of interpretation is allowed to push the word of the Lord out of the way. And I think that this bodes ill, very ill. Not coincidentally, in the full-blown cults of Asia, some of whom btw call "Lord Changshou", they also share this curious trait: The Age of the Word is over, it's now the Age of the Spirit. That's the saying, among them. In other words, ignore scripture and pay attention to whatever the Guru is speaking today. That, not the Jesus in the gospels, foretold by the prophets and testified by the faithful ever since, is the spirit and the God at work. It's the God of this world and of this age, and I see it for what it is, and call it out.

Now, does that in and of itself refresh me? No. But neither am I confused or dis-oriented, or discouraged or dismayed or dis-heartened. The word of the Lord remains. Active, lively, moving. It is there, available for all. And yes, the Spirit comes.

03-03-2017 08:35 AM

Ohio

Re: My story and a plead for your insight

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

I see a glaring discrepancy between scripture and the ministry that purports to interpret it for all and sundry. Where does scripture write itself off by the dozens of chapters, as "fallen" and "vain" and "natural concepts"? If it were so, it wouldn't be scripture, would it?

Instead we got blind adherence to the ministry. We can pan the scripture as vain concepts, but don't question the ministry, the brothers, the current speaking, or the current leading from Anaheim. What Lord are we calling on, here, that's behind this encouragement? What kind of thinking is at work?

Your simple comments here about all members' expected allegiance to LSM are absolutely telling.

On the one hand, the door was wide open for Witness Lee and his Blended successors to question verses and even whole books (i.e. James and Psalms) of scripture, holding them up to Lee's false standard of "God's Economy." Neither Jesus Himself nor the original Apostles ever did this for us. No where in scripture are we instructed to apply new standards of scrutiny to the scripture itself.

On the other hand, applying the same scrutiny to any of the teachings, practices, or questionable directives coming out of LSM would forever put a mark on you, first the scarlet letter "N" for "negative," soon to be replaced with the scarlet letter "R" for "rebellious" if one persists with one's convictions, and subsequently the scarlet letter "L" for "leprous" as one is forever expelled from the program in their factitious action plan call "quarantining."

How different is the ministry of LSM from the scriptures! Apostle Paul told the Thessalonians to "test all things, hold on to the good." The last Apostle John tells us to, "Prove the spirits, whether they are out from God." The risen Jesus commended the Ephesians because they, "tried those who call themselves Apostles and found them to be false." These are just a few examples, many more of which can be found.

03-03-2017 06:20 AM

aron

Re: My story and a plead for your insight

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

aron,

You would benefit much by following tasinee's lead here....

"So, I realized that, and I repented, and opened my heart to Him, to heal my wounds and restore my heart into relationship with Him. I spontaneously started calling upon His name and opening to Him when I had a moment of solitude, and I felt so refreshed, like I haven't for a long time."

It's a simple and proven approach that we all need .

Drake

03-03-2017 04:36 AM

Drake

Re: My story and a plead for your insight

-1

aron,

You would benefit much by following tasinee's lead here....

"So, I realized that, and I repented, and opened my heart to Him, to heal my wounds and restore my heart into relationship with Him. I spontaneously started calling upon His name and opening to Him when I had a moment of solitude, and I felt so refreshed, like I haven't for a long time."

It's a simple and proven approach that we all need .

Drake

03-03-2017 03:32 AM

aron

Re: My story and a plead for your insight

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Most importantly, just repeat this and you will be fine:

"So, I realized that, and I repented, and opened my heart to Him, to heal my wounds and restore my heart into relationship with Him. I spontaneously started calling upon His name and opening to Him when I had a moment of solitude, and I felt so refreshed, like I haven't for a long time."

The fact that people get depressed and confused and dis-oriented after attempting to get free of the influence of the LCM seems to indicate one of two things. Either the LCM is indeed God's true and pure remnant, where the Spirit of Jesus alone can linger and work, or it is rather a nefarious mind-control cult. I'm tilting toward the latter.

Here are my reasons. The Jesus found in the LCM looks nothing like the Jesus found in the four gospels. The gospel Jesus cared for the poor, the weak, the hungry, the sick, the imprisoned, the widows and orphans. All this was consistent with Jewish practice and custom. Jesus walked the walk, not just paid lip service.

On contrast, the LCM Jesus tells us, "Don't waste your time: go after the 'good building material', the young naive college students."

The Jesus in the gospel taught that if you get a chance to give without repayment, do so: you will be repaid in the resurrection of the righteous. The LCM Jesus isn't interested in any investment that doesn't bring immediate return. "That doesn't build the Body", they say. Only invest in what will promote the ministry in the short term. Good works are dead. Contrast that to the Jesus testified by Peter, who "went around doing good" (Acts 10:38).

I could go on: The Jesus of the gospels didn't pan scripture as written by fallen human emotions, vainly trying to be good. No, Jesus said it was written under the inspiration of the holy Spirit and was concerning Him, the Messiah promised by God. But the Jesus of the LCM says that much scripture is actually vain, fallen, natural concepts. Only the Processed and Consummated Triune God will do for the LCM Jesus. Seven-fold grace. The obedience of Jesus, as a pattern to all is ignored as an interpretive template.

Or the fallen human culture. I've already dealt with this elsewhere. See "The Asian Mind and the Western Mind" for example. Culture is panned in the LCM, except where it is Chinese-flavored. Then it gets a free pass.

Or human exaltation. "Let him be the least who wants to be first" is abandoned to an eastern-tinged "One Guru per Age" theme.

Or receiving one another. Only those submissive to LCM leadership get received.

Or corruption and nepotism. Suddenly "drunken Noah" appeared in the New Testament church.

Etc.

02-28-2017 07:53 PM

HERn

Re: My story and a plead for your insight

Quote:

Originally Posted by tasinee

InChristAlone, I meant ortodox denomination by its type, not by its name. To be more precise, I am talking about Nazarene denomination. It has highly legalistic doctrine, by which you will be saved if your good deeds outweigh your bad deeds. This may be too simplistic view of their doctrine, but it adequately sums their life motivation..

I could easily get another job, but I am here to help my brother in law.. Lately I am considering to send a few applications to some other companies. But I don't want to be led by my dissatisfaction, but by the Lord Jesus.

Thank you for all your answers! God bless you all!

I had a friend who was ordained in the Nazarenes, but he was not legalistic at all. They would not drink beer, but were OK with women pastors. I love the diversity in the body of Christ.

02-23-2017 04:08 AM

tasinee

Re: My story and a plead for your insight

02-22-2017 08:34 AM

InChristAlone

Re: My story and a plead for your insight

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

It was tasinee who referred to legalism in the Orthodox church ...

Ohio, you are right. I am sorry, brother, I didn't notice that.

tasinee, could you please explain what legalism in the Orthodox church did you mean? Was it the Eastern Orthodox Church? How long did you attend it?

02-22-2017 08:23 AM

InChristAlone

Re: My story and a plead for your insight

Thank you for your testimony, tasinee. I believe brothers have already replied your questions. I don't think I can add anything new or more profound to that. Let me just try to answer your questions from the Eastern Orthodox point of view.

1. What is really this 'ground of unity'? Biblically?

The ground of unity is our Savior Jesus Christ. It is He Who is the founder and the supreme Head of the Church, which is His Body (cf. Ephesians 1:22-23, 4:15; Colossians 1:18). And it is the Church which is the pillar and foundation of the truth” (1 Timothy 3:15). If we trust the apostle Paul that the pillar and foundation of truth exists, then it cannot be in error, it cannot fall, and it cannot fail. Otherwise, it ceases to be the pillar and foundation of the truth.

The unity of the Church is realized and maintained through the Holy Communion. The Holy Eucharist unites us with Christ and with each other. As the chief act of worship, the Holy Eucharist is the outward affirmation of the unity in faith, worship and love in Christ.

Is it physical position?

I don't think so. The Greek word for Church, ecclesia, implies a community called and gathered by God for a special purpose. This means that the Church can be described as the unique meeting place between God and His people. Ecclesia, united in faith and worship, uses a locality to meet but I can't imagine how the locality can be the ground of unity. The Church is founded on Christ, on the faith in Jesus Christ as the Son of God. It is Christ and our common faith in Him that unite us, not a locality.

How can I be sure that I am standing there?

I will say what makes me sure:

- Who is the founder of the Church? Is it Jesus Christ or a mere mortal like Joseph Smith, Witness Lee or Watchman Nee?

- When was the Church founded? On the day of Pentecost, 33AD, or almost 2000 years later?

- Does the clergy have the Apostolic Succession which is the tracing of a direct line of Apostolic ordination? This succession manifests itself through the unbroken succession of its bishops back to the Holy Apostles. The unbrokenness of Apostolic succession is significant because of Jesus Christ's promise that the "gates of Hell" (St. Matthew 16:18) would not prevail against the Church, and His promise that He Himself would be with the Apostles to "the end of the age" (St. Matthew 28:20).
Source: Orthodox Wiki: Apostolic Succession

- Does the Church preserve the faith and spiritual practices of the early Christian church? (Orthodox teachings today are the same as that of the first Apostles, though their mode of expression has adapted over the centuries to deal with heresies, changes in culture and so forth).

- Is the Church Democratic and Autocephalous and like the Seven Holy Churches mentioned in the Book of Revelations? There should be no earthly “Vicar of Christ” or Emperor who rules the Church.

- What is the criterion of truth in the Church? My own personal opinion? My pastor's interpretation? The Pope's word? Or the consensus of the Fathers?

2. How can I please Jesus?

Let me quote Patriarch Pavle of Serbia (1914-2009):

"St. Basil the Great says that there are three stages of spiritual growth.

The first stage is that of slave. A slave knows that his fate depends on the master to whom he belongs, who has the right to beat, kill, or sell him and his wife and children. Therefore, he will carry out his master’s will. Spiritually speaking, this is the Christian who does the will of God out of fear of hellfire. He understands that even a thousand years of living in sin will never pay off, while there he might be in torment for all of eternity.

The second stage is that of hireling. This is a free man who receives pay for his labor. He works to the extent that he gets paid. Spiritually speaking, this is the Christian whose wants to reach the highest possible level in Paradise. Not all levels there are the same. He who is worthy and good forever advances closer and closer to God, without ever attaining to Him, since God is infinite – but, still, he moves closer and closer. God, of course, is our life and our blessedness – He is our everything.

The third stage is that of son or daughter. A son carries out his father’s will not because he is afraid that his father will punish him, for he is not a slave; nor because he wants to get paid by his father, for he is not a hireling. He does so willingly, so that his father might be pleased. Spiritually speaking, this is the Christian who carries out God’s will because He loves God, so that God might be pleased.

While the first two are thinking about themselves – one does not want to be punished, while the other wants to get paid – the son or daughter is thinking about God. This is the true Christian. But no one can reach this level until he has passed through the first two. How long one will linger at each stage depends on each person individually."

Put it short, keep the Lord’s commandments, i.e. the Gospel commandments, not just the 10 commandments of the Old Testament. The Lord says, "Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them." John 14:21

Please also remember, "Love of God is manifest in obedience to His commandments; love of our neighbor - in love of our enemies." St. Macarius of Optina

3. How can I enjoy Jesus?

Be sober. Cleanse your heart from passions and evil thoughts. And never ever look for spiritual enjoyment. Looking for joy (in prayer, Gospels, meditations, commands, good deeds, etc.) can cause Prelest, self-pride, imagining oneself to be near to God and to the realm of the divine and supernatural.

Prelest is spiritual sickness, self-delusion, deception about ourselves and our spiritual state. This occurs, as Bishop Ignatius Brianchaninov says, "when the heart desires and strives for the enjoyment of holy and divine feelings while it is still completely unfit for them." He also says that if we do not have a contrite spirit, if we recognize any kind of merit or worth in ourselves, we are in this state of deception.

John Climacus warns, “Reject with your right hand, the hand of humility, all streams of joy. Lest, since you are unworthy, this joy prove a temptation, and lead you to mistake the wolf for the shepherd.”

St. Macarius of Optina writes, "According to the Apostle Paul, real joy is a fruit of the Holy Spirit, to be attained only near the summit of the way, after all evil habits and thoughts are overcome, all passions conquered, and reconciliation with God is reached. Hence, in your actual condition, you cannot possibly assume that any streams of joy that flow into you or submerge you, no matter how sweet, come from heaven or that you are already partly living there."

Isaac the Syrian adds, “God’s grace comes of itself without any ambitious striving on our part. It will only come to the heart that is pure.”

Remember the parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector. The Pharisee looked for rewards from God. The Tax Collector humbly asked for mercy: "God, have mercy on me, a sinner!" It is not joy but the state of humility and repentance which opens our hearts for the Lord to enter.

Anyway, be grateful to God for all things, sorrows and joys. Glorify His name when you are happy and when you are sad. Whatever happens in your life, pray to the Lord from the bottom of your heart: "Thank you Lord! Glory to Thee, O Lord, for all things!"

4. Is it possible to be full of joy and peace outside of this LCM?

In short, yes, it is. But why and what kind of joy and peace are you looking for? What can they give to you? Besides, it's not joy or peace that should be our goal but the Lord Jesus Christ and our communion with Him.

“Wherever God is — there is peace. And the opposite is self-evident: where there is envy, enmity, impatience, self-love — there is the devil. Wherever the devil is — there, everything is ruinous, proud and hostile.” St. Anatoly of Optina

The elder Siluan of Mount Athos says, "The soul cannot know peace unless she prays for her enemies." "How should one differ a genuine union with God and imagined experiences of philosophic or pantheistic nature?". The criteria St Silouan gave was: "namely - loving the enemies" and "where the Spirit of the Lord is, there rules unconditionally humble love for the enemy and prayer for the world".

5. How can I biblically refute their expectations of me?

From my experience, no Bible verses and no arguments work. So, don't start heated discussions. Just try to change your life. Draw near to God. Read His word. Cleanse yourself from passions and evil thoughts. Last but not least: Keep the Lord’s commandments, love your sister and her husband as yourself and pray always.

May the Lord bless and help you.

02-22-2017 07:01 AM

Ohio

Re: My story and a plead for your insight

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Tasinee,

First, show up for work on time. If you cannot find work where you can

Second, of course your sister is happy and excited. Lazarus rose from the grave! Allow her to be happy.

Most importantly, just repeat this and you will be fine:

"So, I realized that, and I repented, and opened my heart to Him, to heal my wounds and restore my heart into relationship with Him. I spontaneously started calling upon His name and opening to Him when I had a moment of solitude, and I felt so refreshed, like I haven't for a long time."

Drake ... You sound so condescending, and so dismissive of the struggles which exist in the LC's.

02-22-2017 06:58 AM

Ohio

Re: My story and a plead for your insight

Quote:

Originally Posted by InChristAlone

Ohio, I am afraid when you are talking about legalism, you are confusing the Orthodox Church with Roman Catholicism.

It was tasinee who referred to legalism in the Orthodox church ...

Quote:

Still, some among us were not really satisfied. We were constantly looking for more, for something deeper, perhaps because of some distorted views left over from the ortodox denomination we left. It was hard to learn to walk the narrow way between the legalism we left and ...

02-22-2017 05:10 AM

Drake

Re: My story and a plead for your insight

02-22-2017 02:38 AM

InChristAlone

Re: My story and a plead for your insight

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

This is legalism. It is similar to the demands of the orthodox church.

Ohio, I am afraid when you are talking about legalism, you are confusing the Orthodox Church with Roman Catholicism.

02-21-2017 05:17 PM

Nell

Re: My story and a plead for your insight

Quote:

Originally Posted by tasinee

Can you please honestly answer this questions:
1. What is really this 'ground of unity'? Biblically? Is it physical position? How can I be sure that I am standing there?
2. How can I please Jesus?
3. How can I enjoy Jesus?
4. Is it possible to be full of joy and peace outside of this LCM?
5. How can I biblically refute their expectations of me?

I think I know some of the answers, but I need your confirmation..

Tasinee,

This phrase became my reality while I was in that LCM: "It's easier to follow the Lord than to follow the elders in the LCM."

I'm going to take the liberty of rearranging your questions in order of significance (in my opinion) and give you brief answers.

1. Is it possible to be full of joy and peace outside of this LCM? Yes. Absolutely. I have had peace and joy outside the LCM for 25+ years.

2. How can I please Jesus? Read your Bible. Pray. Obey Him. I know this sounds simplistic, but this is where you start. Also, there's this and other verses on loving God's word, prayer and obedience:
Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

3. How can I enjoy Jesus? Read your Bible. Pray. Obey Him.

4. How can I biblically refute their expectations of me?

(a) It depends on what their expectations are.
(b) More important, Christians who are feeling they must refute the expectations of those with whom they fellowship is a problem in itself.

5. What is really this 'ground of unity'? Biblically? Is it physical position? How can I be sure that I am standing there?

Another question you should ask is "am I supposed to stand there?" My answer is "no."

The "ground of unity" is a man-made teaching. It is the interpretation and/or opinion of the men WNee and WLee. That is all. There are verses that have been used to promote this teaching, but the actual veracity of the teaching is questionable.

Another question is: Do I need this teaching to follow the Lord? My answer: 'no'.

In fact, all Christian teachings we encounter today are the interpretative teachings of men. Men who (hopefully) interpret the Bible. I've heard the expression "non-Biblical Christian teaching." That's also an oxymoron, or a phrase which contradicts itself.

Regarding "enjoy Jesus," that phrase is not in the Bible. I'm not saying we don't enjoy Jesus, I'm just saying it's not necessarily a Biblical teaching that we need to follow. It's very subjective and hard to know when you're actually "enjoying." It's another teaching of WL. When I was there, the only way I could figure out to "enjoy Jesus" was to repeat "Oh Lord Jesus" loudly alone or in the meetings; and "pray read" the Word loudly, alone or in the meetings, with or without fist pumps. That didn't work for me.

The last time someone asked me "are you enjoying the Lord" I replied. "No. I don't do that anymore."

Nell

02-21-2017 11:26 AM

UntoHim

Re: My story and a plead for your insight

Quote:

Originally Posted by tasinee

..We started meeting by ourselves, without any name, label, or leader. We just loved Jesus, and devoted our lives to Him. Still, some among us were not really satisfied. We were constantly looking for more, for something deeper...

Boy, does this sound familiar to many of us....sounds like the atmosphere among many young Christians in Southern California in the late 1960s to early-mid 1970s. We just loved Jesus and desired to devote out lives to Him. I know, because I was one of these young Christians in So. Calif at the time. It was an exciting and wild time. This era is known colloquially as "The Jesus Movement". It seemed that God was on the move and their was revival in the air. Yet some among us were not really satisfied....or so we thought.

Around this time, there were also some people who took advantage of this exciting and wild time, and also took advantage of the flock. Witness Lee was such a man. There were others, but he is the one we are most familiar with. It is very important to understand the main reason(s) why these men were able to come in capture the innocent, gullible sheep, and draw them away to themselves. Pardon my frankness, but I must tell you that one reason was "we just loved Jesus". We loved Him, but we did not know Him very well, and His Word even less. Our faith and knowledge was "a mile wide and an inch deep". We were as those described in the Parable of the Sower: "Other seeds fell on rocky ground, where they did not have much soil, and immediately they sprang up, since they had no depth of soil, but when the sun rose they were scorched. And since they had no root, they withered away." (Matt 13:5,6)

Many young people found themselves "looking for more, for something deeper", and the newfangled and seemingly uber spiritual teachings and practices of the Local Church of Witness Lee fit the bill. If our faith and knowledge was a mile wide and an inch deep, the teachings and practices in the Local Church seemed to be a mile deep (yet unknown to us, probably just an inch wide!) In any case, hundreds upon hundreds of young people were drawn into the Movement. The rest, as the saying goes, is history. Much of this history - the good, the bad and the ugly is recorded on this very forum.

Sorry for such a long post...by the way...WELCOME TO LOCALCHURCHDISCUSSIONS! We look forward to your valuable participation.

Quote:

Great questions! I've already taken too much of your time here for now. I'll let some others jump in and give you some input. Again, welcome to the forum.
-

02-21-2017 09:26 AM

tasinee

Re: My story and a plead for your insight

Thank you all for the encouragements, it means a lot to me! It looks like I am too insecure about myself and my standing in the Lord. That's why I fear them and their opinion. Sometime soon I will have to talk to them and tell them my view of this matter (and heavily disappoint them again). But before that I have to make sure I stand firm for what I believe. As they are.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OBW

Like Ohio says, there is a lot to your 5 "simple" questions. It will take some time to deal with them. And since they are not technically "testimony" or "introduction" we should probably take them to the main forum. Let you just introduce yourself here. And we will say "Hi" back in our own various ways.

I agree, if you want we can take the discussion somewhere else.

Thank you all!

02-20-2017 06:55 PM

HERn

Re: My story and a plead for your insight

"In some way, I was being repelled by the Lord Himself! It was hard for me to have permanent intimacy and build relationship with the Lord."

Dear tasinee, I think the only people our Lord "repelled" were the self righteous Pharisees and scribes. He never repelled a sinner or seeker of grace. He is not repelling you! He is inviting you to run into the embrace of His open arms.

02-20-2017 06:18 PM

Ohio

Re: My story and a plead for your insight

Quote:

Originally Posted by tasinee

In some way, I was being repelled by the Lord Himself! It was hard for me to have permanent intimacy and build relationship with the Lord. So, I realized that, and I repented, and opened my heart to Him, to heal my wounds and restore my heart into relationship with Him. I spontaneously started calling upon His name and opening to Him when I had a moment of solitude, and I felt so refreshed, like I haven't for a long time. So I may have hinted to my sister some of that. She got it so, so wrong, you bet. She started rejoicing that I will soon join them! And I feel miserable again, seeing her joyful as never before. Yes, she finds more joy in the idea of me joining them than in me being right with the Lord. So the repelling is back, I despise this kind of faith, I despise this Jesus, their Jesus! And I am confused, because my Jesus has the same name, and I have to fight hard to keep my heart open to Him, and to love them. Knowing I have to fail their expectations which they claim are actually the Lord's expectations, breaks my heart. Are they the Lord's expectations? Are they? I don't know anymore.

Tasinee, the Lord would never repel you! The Lord Jesus never behaves that way. In fact, He is always living to intercede for us, and always able to save us to the uttermost when we come to Him. (see Hebrews 7.25) The "repelled" feeling you have comes from rejection by LCM believers. They do love you, but they love you only when you love their church ministry. Real love, the love of God, is unconditional, loving the Lord and His children for who they are, and not for what they do.

It is so wonderful that you repented and called on the name of Jesus. You brought shame to the Father of Lies, who is the devil. The Lord Jesus always receives us when we seek Him, (Jeremiah 29.13) but the devil always lies to us that God would repel us. Only our sin or hypocrisy can keep us from Jesus, so we must only repent, and the blood of Jesus Christ will cleanse us from all sin. (see I John 1.5 - 2.2)

I encourage you to call on His name when you pray to Jesus. It is better to do this in secret, and you must not call with your lips only, but from your heart. Jesus said go to our private "closet" so that we do not pray or call His name as a performance, or man-pleasing, but only to please Jesus, our true God.

Tasinee you are in a difficult situation because you work for your brother-in-law. I suggest you come early and work hard for him. Remember that the Lord's expectations are NOT their expectations. The Lord's expectations bring us love and joy within, but their expectations make you feel repelled by God. This is legalism. It is similar to the demands of the orthodox church.

Apostle Paul told the Thessalonians, "Always rejoice, unceasingly pray, in everything give thanks, for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you. Do not quench the Spirit. Do not despise prophecies. But test all things, hold on to what is good. Abstain from every form of evil." (5.16-22)

02-20-2017 03:29 PM

ZNPaaneah

Re: My story and a plead for your insight

Quote:

Originally Posted by tasinee

Can you please honestly answer this questions:
1. What is really this 'ground of unity'? Biblically? Is it physical position? How can I be sure that I am standing there?

Watchman Nee and Witness Lee use the OT typology of the ground of the Temple. This is a very important type but they have completely misapplied it, so let's go back to the word.

The ground is the same ground where Abraham offered up Isaac as a burnt offering and where he received him again as a type of resurrection.

It is also the ground where David offered a peace offering to God by buying the threshing field for the ground of the temple.

David had sinned by not honoring God's command that when you number the people that you must offer up a ransom for each person to be used for the service in the sanctuary so that they don't have a plague among them.

This is the ground we stand on, we have been ransomed by Jesus sacrifice of His blood for us. We were not chosen because of our strength or power, it is not of us but all of Him. We stand here by faith, we believe in the promises of God, we believe in the resurrection from among the dead. Standing on this ground will keep us safe from the plague of pride.

Jesus is our burnt offering, Jesus is our sin offering, Jesus is our Peace offering. We stand on this ground by faith in Him.

However, WN and WL twist this ground to be equivalent to the boundary of a worldly city, a boundary decided not by Jesus sacrifice, but by town councils. These boundaries are ephemeral, changing frequently over time. There is no burnt offering, this doctrine is used to explain why all others are burned to ashes and only they do not get burned. There is no peace offering, rather this doctrine is used as a wedge to separate the believers from the rest of the Body of Christ. There is no sin offering, instead of recognizing that Jesus blood is our sin offering they create a new sin for the Body of Christ that is not covered in the Blood, but only forgiven if they bow to WN and WL's doctrines. As a result of this doctrine a plague of pride has run through the LC.

02-20-2017 03:16 PM

OBW

Re: My story and a plead for your insight

Quote:

Originally Posted by least

OBW
I think you have confused least with tasinee.
Tasinee started this thread and asked the five questions.
Please refer to the first post.

That is not the way that quotes work. When you quote from a particular post, it is properly attributed to the person that made that post.

That does not mean that the comment is necessarily directed at that person. It just means that the thing that is being quoted came from them.

And you made the comment about having a section to just talk about Christian things without the issues concerning the LSM or LRC. And I did comment on that, therefore it was a response to you, not tasinee.

And is one of the reasons that too many comments in the introductions and testimonies is not so good.

02-20-2017 02:46 PM

least

Re: My story and a plead for your insight

OBW
I think you have confused least with tasinee.
Tasinee started this thread and asked the five questions.
Please refer to the first post.

02-20-2017 02:17 PM

OBW

Re: My story and a plead for your insight

Quote:

Originally Posted by least

I wish this forum can have a section that discuss the bible and christian life, free from referring back to WL LCM, because this is what I need.

There has been some discussion in that way. But even that is sometimes difficult because there is a tendency in all of us to defend our way rather than seeking the truth. We understand some things certain ways and like it. And we tend to bristle if someone suggests that it might be another way.

Just look at the Trinity thread. Even within those who do not agree with Lee and the LSM, there is diversity in understanding.

That is not necessarily a bad thing. Sometimes the best answer is to be open rather than closed. I've been getting a lot of flack about challenging everything. And probably deservedly so. My faith has not waivered, but I find that I read too many verses (or more correctly, larger passages) where there is always someone declaring that this bit means "X" and that piece means "Y." And I look at them and read the words, and wonder (out loud) "WHY?" Where did we read that? What overlay forced that meaning onto this verse?

We should at least start where we are. Not somewhere else. Understand what is written before presuming something not written, or written somewhere else.

Like Ohio says, there is a lot to your 5 "simple" questions. It will take some time to deal with them. And since they are not technically "testimony" or "introduction" we should probably take them to the main forum. Let you just introduce yourself here. And we will say "Hi" back in our own various ways.

02-20-2017 01:34 PM

least

Re: My story and a plead for your insight

tasinee
I experienced the depression in my living involved in the LCM. (that depression could have been oppression from the devil).
They claim ownership of Jesus believers who want to pursue and love the LORD. They assume 'authority', but really they make themselves gods and usurp God's authority. All believers belong to God himself.
I pray the Lord saves me from man-made doctrines, and I study the bible so that the Lord himself would teach me. You'll discover they have 'high peak truths' which are extra-biblical inventions.
They emphasis 'building' but breaks up and divide people.
More joy and peace outside the LCM, because I can repent to the Lord and live with Him with a clean conscience. In the LCM must conform to their 'oneness' to the extend of suppressing the conscience and the voice of the Lord inside.

I wish this forum can have a section that discuss the bible and christian life, free from referring back to WL LCM, because this is what I need.

02-20-2017 12:52 PM

Nell

Re: My story and a plead for your insight

Welcome, Tasinee,

Many of us have indeed shared your experience/s. There is a book which you may find helpful, written by a former member, Jane Carole Anderson. The book is available in Kindle format from Amazon and hard copy on Jane's website at http://www.thethreadofgold.com/

From Amazon: "This book tells the true story of Jane Carole Anderson’s twenty-year journey through the Local Church of Witness Lee. It reveals her discovery of the powerful and practical message of the cross, one that saved her from deception and revealed God’s purpose for her life."

https://www.amazon.com/Thread-Gold-G...7622662&sr=1-3

Blessings to you--
Nell

02-20-2017 12:14 PM

Ohio

Re: My story and a plead for your insight

Tasinee, welcome to the forum!

You are not alone. We all have passed thru the same conflicts. Many LC teachings are good, but some are not, as you have discovered. Apostle Paul told us to "test all things, hold on to the good." (i Thess 5) The early church also confronted these same challenges. The Lord Jesus also instructed the disciples in the Gospels to "beware of the leaven of the Pharisees."

I have little time now, but these two principles helped me greatly. When you are troubled by these teachings, then you must pray and search the scriptures like the Bereans did.

Witness Lee and the LC brothers always told us that we can NOT "pick and choose" which part of their ministry we want, but their instruction was contrary to the teaching of the Lord Jesus and the Apostles. We MUST test all teachings, and discern what is good and what is leaven. This is part of our Christian maturity -- Hebrews 5.12-14.

Later I and others can address specific questions you have. Remember to keep your heart in the joy of your Savior Jesus!

02-20-2017 11:26 AM

tasinee

My story and a plea for your insight

Dear saints,

I am 29, married, from a family of believers, born again for about 14 years, living in a small south-european country. The denomination I belonged at first is ortodox, very closed, 'only-we-will-be-saved' type of denomination. So me, my parents, and a bunch of others left them since they prohibited visiting other saints from other denominations. We started meeting by ourselves, without any name, label, or leader. We just loved Jesus, and devoted our lives to Him.

Still, some among us were not really satisfied. We were constantly looking for more, for something deeper, perhaps because of some distorted views left over from the ortodox denomination we left. It was hard to learn to walk the narrow way between the legalism we left and ... whatever is on the other side. So, long story short, my brother and I got some books from Watchman Nee (non LSM publications). We greatly appreciated them, and were hungry for more. So, one day, at the end of 2012. year, we somewhere found small ad about free sets of books from Watchman Nee and Witness Lee. We didn't know the latter, but Nee made us interested. So we wrote to the email address stated there. A warm, greeting email came back. Soon, the books were received. It was something new, something that promised us what we longed for: a more real way to enjoy Christ. We started learning about our spirit, about the way to walk with Christ, etc. So we wanted more...

Soon we started having meetings on skype with this brother who sent us the books. We still didn't know anything about the massive organization we stumbled upon. Now when I look back, it reminds me of poking a giant who otherwise wouldn't even notice us, but now we have got his interest. So, this brother started teaching us things about Christ that were amazing,and we were hungry, so hungry that we didn't do much chewing, we just swallowed everything, as we were encouraged to do: to turn of our minds, our minds are just a barrier to a deeper experience of Life in our spirit. Hm.

After few months, this brother asked us if we would receive a few of them, he and some other brothers would like to come and visit us. We were flattered. Of course, you are welcome!

Few weeks after, they came. First meeting, we met at home. They started fighting the religious spirit, with much noise, calling, proclaiming, singing. They seemed so happy, so fresh, so we were infected by them. They stayed for a while, and we had many meetings over next week or two. It looked like it was just what we need, someone to teach us how to really touch this wonderful person of Jesus Christ! Hallelujah! When they left, our meetings were so much more alive, we were all so encouraged, so happy, so full of Jesus! Really, He was the center of everything we talked about and did, both personally and corporately.

It lasted a month or two. The skype meetings continued. In the meantime, we went on a small conference in the nearby state. Soon after that, on our skype meetings, some 'higher truths' started to surface. Red flags started rising. Some among us were starting to wonder where this would lead us.. some did a background research, and found out who they are.. some of us couldn't believe it could be true, some of us didn't care, being too drunk with the new 'high revelations'.. So, soon the phrases like 'you have to be willing to pay the price', 'you must leave denominational system', 'to be really satisfied with Jesus, you must satisfy Jesus [and leave them]', and similar, were being more and more often spoken out.

I couldn't get it. I was thinking, if I now know the truth, and have this glorious experience of Christ as never before, I want this for everyone!!! So why on earth would I leave everyone who doesn't have that? If they don't force me out of their lives, I would be there to lead them to the Christ as I experienced Him. Why would I spare them of my example? I was being told that I need to stand on 'the unity ground' (I don't know the exact English term). So I said, if you are forcing me to leave my dear brothers and sisters who honestly love the Lord, and serve Him the best they know, and seek Him with all they are, because they haven't understood or welcomed some 'higher truths' so eagerly as the rest of us - then this can't be of God. I will rather stay and help them grow than forsake them just like that. I stopped going on skype meetings.

A month or two after that, two families and one brother told us they can't visit our meetings anymore, they found a true home for them, have been in death long enough, they have experienced true life. So they departed from us. We never casted them out, we were never ever hostile toward them. We just called out the doctrines that seemed strange and asked about biblical basis for them. But no, that was death for them.

It all lasted about 9 months, since their first visit, until the divide. I 'left' in October 2013.

Last year in May, the Lord led me (I am not really so sure about that right now) to start working for my brother-in-law, the one who stayed with LCM all along. So I started spending much more time with him, and my sister. Of course, she often urged me to come back to them, telling me how much they need me, how much local church of my city needs me, how much the Lord needs me... Soon the pressure started being unbearable, some old wounds surfaced, I was lost. I was so depressed, I started being late for work (not more than 15 minutes), so even my job was on the line. My boss, that is, my brother in law, called me for a meeting one day. He made sure I know how much he is dissapointed with me, he expected much more of me, even though I am an exceptional worker (his words). He noticed that I was dejected about the work, and rebuked me for being late for work so often. I promised I will straighten up.

After I located the source of my depression, I realized that I should minimize my exposure to the urges of my sister, so for a month I avoided any unnecesary contact with them, except for work related. This was about three months ago. After that month, she apologized, and we started hanging out more again, as brother and sister. It was all well until a week or two ago.. it started again. By my fault, as it seems.

You see, the Lord told me two weeks ago that when I 'left' LCM, I actually closed my heart for Him. I wanted to follow Him, but I was repelled by anything that looks similar to what I saw in LCM. Even to the point that it was so hard for me to be spontanious with the Lord. In some way, I was being repelled by the Lord Himself! It was hard for me to have permanent intimacy and build relationship with the Lord. So, I realized that, and I repented, and opened my heart to Him, to heal my wounds and restore my heart into relationship with Him. I spontaneously started calling upon His name and opening to Him when I had a moment of solitude, and I felt so refreshed, like I haven't for a long time. So I may have hinted to my sister some of that. She got it so, so wrong, you bet. She started rejoicing that I will soon join them! And I feel miserable again, seeing her joyful as never before. Yes, she finds more joy in the idea of me joining them than in me being right with the Lord. So the repelling is back, I despise this kind of faith, I despise this Jesus, their Jesus! And I am confused, because my Jesus has the same name, and I have to fight hard to keep my heart open to Him, and to love them. Knowing I have to fail their expectations which they claim are actually the Lord's expectations, breaks my heart. Are they the Lord's expectations? Are they? I don't know anymore.

Can you please honestly answer this questions:
1. What is really this 'ground of unity'? Biblically? Is it physical position? How can I be sure that I am standing there?
2. How can I please Jesus?
3. How can I enjoy Jesus?
4. Is it possible to be full of joy and peace outside of this LCM?
5. How can I biblically refute their expectations of me?

I think I know some of the answers, but I need your confirmation..