Originally Posted by Igzy

There is a point where each of us feel compelled to speak out against a wrong.

Originally Posted by Igzy

That is different than being picky about people's imperfections.

Originally Posted by Igzy

If you don't know the difference then you shouldn't be trying to correct anyone yourself. If you do then your last post is superfluous

Originally Posted by Igzy

I don't think you can categorize the LCM authority abuses under the heading of "Oh, no one's perfect."

Originally Posted by Steel

At the beginning of your comment you say that you know that no one is perfect... And that your expectations of people reflect this... But at the end you bring in what seems like a limitation to what you first said...

Originally Posted by Igzy

Oh, I certainly don't expect anyone to be perfect. You don't expect of others what you can't produce in yourself.

Originally Posted by Igzy

My problem...

Originally Posted by Igzy

...with the LCM is not general imperfection. It's specific behavior. In particular, abuse of authority. This is intertwined with false teachings used to control the membership, like the local ground, the MOTA and the idea of God's true move being unique to one movement of man. All these are used to control membership in an abusive way.

Originally Posted by Igzy

...I still appreciate and enjoy a lot of things I got from the LCM, but they do not excuse nor make up for the grievous errors of abuse that checker the LCM's history.

Originally Posted by Steel

Amen... Now can you have the above disposition regarding people like Witness Lee and those involved with LSM and the local churches? . . . And will you not be offended by them as they try to do exactly what you say you're trying to do?

Originally Posted by Steel

But no matter how much you try to twist what I said... The words are right there for all to see... That I didn't judge anyone... Which exposes you through your own spoken words.

Originally Posted by Igzy

Anyway, they don't help your communication and are hard on the eyes, in my humble opinion. No offense, really, but I don't get them.

Originally Posted by Igzy

You'll find I'm pretty straightforward, but fair.

Originally Posted by Igzy

As for your question about how people view Christianity, I realize that there are things that are "Christ" and things that are not Christ. What God hasn't given me the wisdom for is to be the overall judge of what those things are. If I hear of a church on the other side of the country that has a music ministry with a banjo I can't determine that is or is not Christ. And neither can anyone else. I have a hard enough time determining what's Christ in me. I don't have the bandwidth, nor the commission, to police the rest of the Church.

Originally Posted by Igzy

As for God not accepting "mixture," I think that is a naive statement, which again has the intent of discounting people you have judged are less holy than they should be. As if God made you the judge.

Originally Posted by Igzy

The problem is, we are all mixed. Me, you, ABC Community Church and the local church you meet with.

Originally Posted by Igzy

We are mixed because we are still fallen. We are a work in progress. But God still accepts us.

Originally Posted by Igzy

That's what GRACE means.

Originally Posted by Igzy

So if you take your statement to the extreme, which I think you did, you end up saying that God doesn't accept anything, which denies grace.

Originally Posted by Igzy

I don't think you or anyone else is discerning enough to know precisely all the time what is Christ and what isn't, in yourself, let alone anyone else.

Originally Posted by Igzy

We just act in faith to the best of our ability and let God correct us going forward.

Originally Posted by Igzy

However well-intended they may be, they always seem to end up being used by one part of the Lord's Body to bash another.

Originally Posted by HERn

Maybe it's Christendom rather than Christianity that is the problem. Here is a quote from the publisher. I have enjoyed the book.


"Christendom, according to Malcolm Muggeridge in this fiery book, is something quite different from Christianity. Christ said his kingdom was not of this world; Christendom, on the other hand, is of this world and, like every other human creation, is subject to decay and eventual desolation. In this book Muggeridge perceptively explores the downfall of Christendom, indicating some of the contributing factors to its collapse."

About the Author
Malcolm Muggeridge (1903–1990) was a British journalist and prolific author. The End of Christendom.

Originally Posted by Igzy

That's one definition.

Originally Posted by Igzy

But not necessarily THE definition.

Originally Posted by Igzy

"Christianity" also means...

Originally Posted by Igzy

"...the collective of all Christians, their beliefs, and even, sometimes, their history. It's just a term. It can mean several things.

Originally Posted by Igzy

What's important is how the person who uses it means it.

Originally Posted by Igzy

It seems unreasonable and naive to say "Christianity" can only mean one thing and you get to define for everyone what that is.

Originally Posted by Igzy

In all communication it's best to try to truly understand what the other person means by his words rather than putting meaning in his mouth by interpreting his words in ways he did not intend.

Originally Posted by Igzy

It seems the starting point for those in the LCM is to discount that God is doing anything worthwhile outside their walls.

Originally Posted by Igzy

It's hard to take seriously people who cannot recognize that he is indeed doing many great things outside the LCM. The idea that what's going on with one's particular group is God's bestest is a deception that is not unique to the LCM. And, as has been pointed out many times, history has not been kind to those groups who assumed such an attitude.

Originally Posted by Igzy

They do this by using word definitions in certain strategic ways, not by observing spiritual realities. Example: "Christianity" is man's endeavor without God. Therefore, anything in "Christianity" is vain. But we are not vain because we are not "Christianity." Ultimately, "Christianity" to them means "everyone and everything but us."

Originally Posted by Igzy

All that is not about spiritual realities. It's simply about using convenient word definitions to aggrandize oneself and discredit others. It's a neat, but ultimately deceiving, trick.

Originally Posted by Ohio

And every long term ex-member is convinced not just "Christianity" but also "religion" is so evil, remember "Christ vs. Religion?"

Originally Posted by Ohio

Actually the Lord Jesus never was against religion. Not the Jewish religion, neither the Christian religion. It was all a "bogey man" created by Lee. The Bible never says it. Actually Jesus was against hypocrisy, and that which is recorded in the scripture.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Lee's goal was to convince all members that all religion is evil, and it even killed our Savior. Next step is to convince them that everything outside of the Recovery is religion, and there is no religion inside the Recovery.

Originally Posted by HERn

Maybe it's Christendom rather than Christianity that is the problem. Here is a quote from the publisher. I have enjoyed the book.

"Christendom, according to Malcolm Muggeridge in this fiery book, is something quite different from Christianity. Christ said his kingdom was not of this world; Christendom, on the other hand, is of this world and, like every other human creation, is subject to decay and eventual desolation. In this book Muggeridge perceptively explores the downfall of Christendom, indicating some of the contributing factors to its collapse."

About the Author
Malcolm Muggeridge (1903–1990) was a British journalist and prolific author. The End of Christendom.

Originally Posted by Igzy

That's one definition. But not necessarily THE definition. "Christianity" also means the collective of all Christians, their beliefs, and even, sometimes, their history. It's just a term. It can mean several things. What's important is how the person who uses it means it. It seems unreasonable and naive to say "Christianity" can only mean one thing and you get to define for everyone what that is.

In all communication it's best to try to truly understand what the other person means by his words rather than putting meaning in his mouth by interpreting his words in ways he did not intend.

Certainly there is God's work and there is man's labor apart from God. But calling some work "Christianity" does not make it fleshly, any more than calling it "God's Recovery" makes it spiritual. What matters is not what we call it, but what it is.

It seems the starting point for those in the LCM is to discount that God is doing anything worthwhile outside their walls. It's hard to take seriously people who cannot recognize that he is indeed doing many great things outside the LCM. The idea that what's going on with one's particular group is God's bestest is a deception that is not unique to the LCM. And, as has been pointed out many times, history has not been kind to those groups who assumed such an attitude.

They do this by using word definitions in certain strategic ways, not by observing spiritual realities. Example: "Christianity" is man's endeavor without God. Therefore, anything in "Christianity" is vain. But we are not vain because we are not "Christianity." Ultimately, "Christianity" to them means "everyone and everything but us."

All that is not about spiritual realities. It's simply about using convenient word definitions to aggrandize oneself and discredit others. It's a neat, but ultimately deceiving, trick.

Originally Posted by Steel

That's very true, and a very relevant question.

But to properly fellowship on it, it would be best if all had a clear view of just what Christianity is.

Here's my understanding... Christian...ity is exactly what the word define... Something that is out of Christian... A human endeavor.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Originally Posted by Ohio

Let the Lord deal with His servants? Lee condemned "poor, poor, Christianity" for decades. Why didn't any of you inform him of this advice? Why did you not stand up and tell him, "Drop the slander and mocking and berating and pursue resurrection life!" Of course, we know why. And we know what would happen to you.

Originally Posted by Drake

Ohio,

If I thought these brothers were all the evil things you claim then of course I would not have fellowship with them. But I do not see them that way at all, not even close.

Let the Lord deal with His servants, He knows all things of the heart. Drop the slander and mocking and berating and pursue resurrection life. If they are wrong, you also are wrong now too. Yours is not a service to God for it is His enemy that rails and slanders God's children. You may justify your behavior but God knows our true condition. All reasoning will fail before Him.

Drake

Originally Posted by Drake

Ohio, Let's see where we agree and where we disagree.

Your post above suggests that you agree there was an anointing in Brother Lee's teachings and that to follow those is fine with you as it is with me.

Your objection concerns how the situation with PL was handled by Brother Lee and the leaders in the Lord's Recovery. You believe that how that was handled caused decent men like John Ingalls to leave. Agree with that summary so far?

Originally Posted by Drake

If so, where we part company is what you and I apparently do with that information. You had expectations and your disappointment caused you to leave. Perhaps you were a decent man also and could not tolerate what you deemed mishandling and/or unrighteous behavior. On the other hand, I do not place my trust in man, any man, and do not follow a man. When I say I follow the anointing I mean an anointing applied not an anointing in the air. Of course, the gifts given to the Body are anointed but it is not necessarily permanent. It is wrong to think once anointed always anointed.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Drake, you equivocate here (as usual.) No one is saying that you should not believe or follow the teachings of WL from the Bible that Jesus is Lord, our Savior, etc. under the anointing of the Spirit. All LC members have the liberty to do that.

But when WL covers up immorality, abuse, financial crimes, etc. of high ranking officials and family members in his ministry, and the Blended Brothers are still following a man, then we have problems here. These brothers then were forced to decide between Lee's words and the teachings of the Bible, and decide between Lee himself and the Lord Jesus.

And these bad choices thrust upon the body of Christ were what led decent men of God like John Ingalls to leave.

Originally Posted by Drake

We follow the gift, the anointing, the leading.... we follow a man as he follows the Lord.

Originally Posted by Drake

What forum members do here is ignore the anointing, the gift, and focus on the man... Then they find all the faults about this man they can muster to discredit the man......so they can accuse brothers and sisters in the Lord's Recovery of following a man. However, that logic is devoid of God's NT arrangement. God gave gifts to men for a reason.... to build up the Body of Christ. All the gifts are related to ministry. The gifts are men. Men have faults and yet, gifts are anointed by God.

Originally Posted by Drake

If a man is to be followed as he follows the Lord then it is for the ministry to build up the Body of Christ.

Originally Posted by Drake

Under that definition they are comfortable to say they follow a man and so am I. Not how you and others mean it.

Drake

Originally Posted by Drake

Good examples, alb.

We follow the gift, the anointing, the leading.... we follow a man as he follows the Lord.

What forum members do here is ignore the anointing, the gift, and focus on the man... Then they find all the faults about this man they can muster to discredit the man......so they can accuse brothers and sisters in the Lord's Recovery of following a man. However, that logic is devoid of God's NT arrangement. God gave gifts to men for a reason.... to build up the Body of Christ. All the gifts are related to ministry. The gifts are men. Men have faults and yet, gifts are anointed by God.

If a man is to be followed as he follows the Lord then it is for the ministry to build up the Body of Christ. Under that definition they are comfortable to say they follow a man and so am I. Not how you and others mean it.

Drake

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Praying for you Steel. Seek the truth only found in Jesus.

Originally Posted by Terry

Steel, I am in agreement with you here. A start would be to set aside ministry publications. If we take the Bible as our only standard. This is a book in which there should be no divisions.
Your last sentence is something I had noticed years ago. Why is there a difference in care? In the locality I lived as a single brother if you were 18-20 years old there was an abundance of care. Those that were mid-20's and older not so much.

Originally Posted by Koinonia

I've heard Ron Kangas and Dan Towle (at least) say defiantly in meetings that they are "not ashamed to say they follow a man--Witness Lee."

But where is it printed? Why didn't they print it?

Originally Posted by Drake

Right. And yet, such an important practice and teaching should be documented. I'd like to read it in context. Must be there. Really. Let's see it.

Originally Posted by A little brother

How about this?

Watchman Nee—A Seer of the Divine Revelation in the Present Age
Chapter 33
...I consider Watchman Nee to be a unique gift given by the Head to His Body for His recovery in this age. I fully respect him as such a gift. I have the full confidence and assurance that it was absolutely of the Lord that I followed this gift for the Lord's interest in His present move on this earth. I feel no shame whatsoever in saying that I followed a man --a man that was the unique gift and the seer of the divine visions in this age.

How about the letter of allegiance to Witness Lee in 1986?

We also agree to follow your leading as the one who has brought us God’s New Testament economy and has led us into its practice.

Originally Posted by Drake

Provide the specific reference, lets have a look at it in context.

Originally Posted by Ohio

I was in numerous meetings when I heard this.

I am a primary eye witness.

I don't need corroboration from LSM's highly edited and sanitized publications.

Originally Posted by Ohio

I was in numerous meetings when I heard this.

I am a primary eye witness.

I don't need corroboration from LSM's highly edited and sanitized publications.

Originally Posted by Drake

Provide the specific reference, lets have a look at it in context.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Wait a minute. It was WL who said he followed a man. He boasted in following Nee. Many of the Blendeds likewise have boasted in following Lee. So you are now claiming to be some spiritual outlier?

Originally Posted by Drake

Ohio,

I believe you when you say you followed a man. That is the problem. And now, because you followed a man you think everyone else does too. You were disappointed and do not understand why everyone else doesn't see it as you do.

Therefore, perhaps you have never known what it is to follow the anointing, a vision, or the Spirit's leading. For if you had, then I am sure you would also allow that when Steel or I say we do not follow a man then you would not object to the concept.

Drake

Originally Posted by Steel

Thankfully, anyone who desires to see the actually comment made... And not just the cherry-picked bits and pieces someone may use to troll for a particular reaction... Can simply scroll to my actual comment and know the truth regarding what I said, and the context it was said in.

That's the wonderful thing about online forums... As long as the comments are not deleted or edited... They are right there for all to see.

Praise the Lord.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Unlike you, we have lived in the LC system for decades. WE KNOW THEY ARE FOLLOWING A MAN. They told us they were. We know his name. We watched elders follow him contrary to the Lord and their own conscience.

Now you can attempt to play word games like the wordsmiths at LSM and try to convince yourself that you follow a teaching of Lee, and not Lee himself, but we know better. We lived thru this. Lee may be dead but his minions are still following him. Why else would they soberly talk about the "day Thy have to face him?" And why would they still be following his disgusting practices of filing lawsuits? Just because he did it.

Originally Posted by Steel

At the time I remember struggling with the matter, wondering why born again believers had to be divided... Especially given that scripture tells us unequivocally that we are one body. Sure, many memebrs... But one body... So I went before the Lord with this matter and eventually came to this scripture verse... 1 Corinthians 12:25... "That there would be no division in the body, but that the members would have the same care for one another."

This is what stood out to me... "...no division..." . . . "...have the same care for one another." . . . So scripture is telling us that division comes out of... NOT... having the same care for one another... In the church, each born again believer should give the same care to all the different members... Because a difference in care causes division.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Hi leastofthese, don't take it personally, he treats us all the same way.

Originally Posted by leastofthese

wow.

Hey Steel - I'm going to push pause on communicating with you brother. Just because I disagree with you or see things differently does not mean I am being dishonest. I'm not here to convince you of anything and gain nothing from lying.

Your consistent barrage of personal insults to me and other forum members loudly speaks to who you are - and for that I can do nothing but pray for you. You should take a moment to sit quietly before the Lord.

I, for one, can assure you that your loveless, lifeless insults fall at your feet, not mine. I have personal no resentment, nor care, about the words you've shared...but it leaves me saddened for your heart.

Originally Posted by leastofthese

wow... Hey Steel - I'm going to push pause on communicating with you brother.

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Just because I disagree with you or see things differently does not mean I am being dishonest.

Originally Posted by leastofthese

I'm not here to convince you of anything and gain nothing from lying.

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Your consistent barrage of personal insults to me and other forum members loudly speaks to who you are - and for that I can do nothing but pray for you. You should take a moment to sit quietly before the Lord.

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Originally Posted by Steel

It seems you are confused...

This is a lie...

You'll think to be more honest in your doing so.

So again you are being dishonest.

You seem to have a problem honesty suggesting what I have said. I'd suggest you try and correct this flaw that is being exposed in your speaking.

And if you properly understood the reality scripture reveals to us regarding this matter you would know this. And knowing this, you wouldn't speak in and out of your offended feelings the way you do.

Being a little off in your speaking is to not be in God with your speaking. And to not be in God with your speaking is to be in your fallen natural man... Which is certainly not where scripture tells us we should be.

I would strongly exhort you, for your own sake/salvation (the working out of it) to become clear on this scriptural reality.

So again you have spoken in a dishonest manner.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Now you can attempt to play word games like the wordsmiths at LSM and try to convince yourself that you follow a teaching of Lee, and not Lee himself, but we know better.

Originally Posted by Ohio

We lived thru this. Lee may be dead but his minions are still following him.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Why else would they soberly talk about the "day Thy have to face him?"

Originally Posted by Ohio

And why would they still be following his disgusting practices of filing lawsuits?

Originally Posted by Ohio

Just because he did it.

Originally Posted by Steel

I have no cause... Other than Christ... And in that it is He who helps me... That reality made clear... Contrary to what you are saying... I believe there is most certainly a deliberate attempt by some to suggest that people who meet with the local church do so because they "...follow Witness Lee..." in order to suggest that we all are given to following a man... And not following the Lord in our regenerated spirit... This is why I counter this speaking by continually stating that Witness Lee is dead.

Why don't you tell the folks who are constantly saying that "...people follow the man, Witness Lee..." to stop saying that, and to speak honestly and properly about the matter. Wouldn't that be more aligned with our Christian calling regarding our speaking?

It would be easy enough for someone to say "...you hold to the teaching (or ministry) of Witness Lee." Which is actually what would be the case. And as such, would indicate that it is not a man that is being followed, but a teaching that is being held to... Which would then point the discussion away from the man, and instead focus on the teaching... Which is what scripture tells us we should be concerned with.

But I understand the need of some to continually try and suggest people follow a man, as doing so

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Also, please refrain from quoting entire large portions of scripture. We all have Bibles. You can simply quote a small portion, and then if our readers have the time and desire to do so, they can look all the verses up themselves.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Finally, please stop misunderstanding on purpose. We all know Witness Lee has been dead for 20 years now. So when someone talks about "following Witness Lee" you know very well what they mean. Don't be so obtuse...trust me...it's not helping your cause any.

Originally Posted by leastofthese

I see, that makes sense on the confusion. When I was talking about the LSM churches, I wasn't referring to all those "who have been born of the Spirit..." I was referring to the 501c3 organizations that follow the leadership and publications of the 501c3 Living Stream Ministry.

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Witness Lee laid the foundation of his ministry by condemning and lambasting churches that don't follow his ministry, yet you follow him...

Originally Posted by leastofthese

...even though (as you say) it is "a major aspect of the stumbling that occurs with the entire body of Christ".

Originally Posted by leastofthese

...I guess it would be bad enough if it was all talk - but we know from history that Lee backed up his word with action. Members in this forum were there and saw first hand.

Originally Posted by leastofthese

...As the poster Ohio points out, and it is true, nearly every message of Witness Lee condemns other churches and believers.

Originally Posted by leastofthese

...Drake will nitpick what the definition of "nearly" is... But it doesn't change reality.

Originally Posted by leastofthese

...The LSM churches are well known, in this forum and out, for their vocal distain for other churches and believers.

Originally Posted by leastofthese

...You sit through it in you meeting hall and home meetings...

Originally Posted by leastofthese

...yet you'll never hear Witness Lee questioned in those same halls and homes.

Originally Posted by leastofthese

As the poster Ohio points out, and it is true, nearly every message of Witness Lee condemns other churches and believers. Drake will nitpick what the definition of "nearly" is... But it doesn't change reality. The LSM churches are well known, in this forum and out, for their vocal distain for other churches and believers. You sit through it in you meeting hall and home meetings... yet you'll never hear Witness Lee questioned in those same halls and homes.

Originally Posted by leastofthese

As the poster Ohio points out, and it is true, nearly every message of Witness Lee condemns other churches and believers. Drake will nitpick what the definition of "nearly" is... But it doesn't change reality. The LSM churches are well known, in this forum and out, for their vocal distain for other churches and believers. You sit through it in you meeting hall and home meetings... yet you'll never hear Witness Lee questioned in those same halls and homes.

Originally Posted by Fuji

Although they always speak of how denominations are divisive, I want to say that for the many, many years that I have been a Christian and have been to 1x churches (No I am not church hopping but it's due to the nature of my work - and by being I mean fellowshipping) in my life I have never EVER seen a church like LC that mocks and belittles other non-LC believers and churches so much as LC does. It is sickening. I really honestly don't know how they can NOT get hurt when they do things like this. LC wants to repeat Nee’s saying, to have a “Normal Christian Life”, but man. When you feel normal to talk crap about other Christians not in your group, it is not normal. I think there is something VERY, VERY wrong in them when they say these things without feeling disturbed or hurt. I for one know Jesus Christ is being hurt when His people are being despised by His own people. I constantly have to share this with my close friends today to heal my wounds.

Let me give you some examples. Almost every time when I go to their meetings , big or small - when we are supposed to share our salvation testimonies, the testimonies shared by them were always not of how they became saved into Christ, but how they became SAVED INTO THE LC CHURCH LIFE. “Wow my previous church is crap! My previous church spiritual view is just so low!”

Originally Posted by Steel

All who have been born of the Spirit and are therefore in Christ Jesus.

Originally Posted by Steel

From Wikipedia...

"Sectarianism is a form of bigotry, discrimination, or hatred arising from attaching relations of inferiority and superiority to differences between subdivisions within a group. Common examples are denominations of a religion, ethnic identity, class, or region for citizens of a state and factions of a political movement.

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Thanks Steel.

When you speak of the church in your response, what definition are you using?

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Quote from Witness Lee: In the past two years, some have left the genuine local churches and have begun to meet in a divisive way. They may say that they are not a division but are simply a group meeting of the church. However, these are not genuine group meetings but sectarian divisions, because they do not care for the oneness of the Body or for the ground of locality.

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Quote from Witness Lee: In the past two years, some have left the genuine local churches and have begun to meet in a divisive way. They may say that they are not a division but are simply a group meeting of the church. However, these are not genuine group meetings but sectarian divisions, because they do not care for the oneness of the Body or for the ground of locality.

Originally Posted by Steel

Matthew 8:5-10... "And when He entered into Capernaum, a centurion came to Him, beseeching Him... And saying, Lord, my servant is lying in the house paralyzed, terribly tormented... And He said to him, I will come and heal him... But the centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not fit for You to enter under my roof; but only speak a word, and my servant will be healed... For I also am a man under authority, having soldiers under me. And I say to this one, Go, and he goes; and to another, Come, and he comes; and to my slave, Do this, and he does it... Now when Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those who followed, Truly I say to you, With no one in Israel have I found such great faith..."

Isn't it wonderful that scripture tells us that great faith can be even be spoken out of an unsaved person.

How much more do you think the Lord is able to bring something good out of a born again believer in Christ.

aron... I wasn't listening to Ed Marks... I was listening to Christ.



I'd simply say to you my brother... Look after yourself... And let the Lord look after others.

Originally Posted by aron

Great faith. . . unsaved. . .??? Sorry but I have no idea what this means. I thought faith was the way to be saved.

Originally Posted by Steel

Isn't it wonderful that scripture tells us that great faith can be even be spoken out of an unsaved person.

Originally Posted by Steel

In the regenerated spirit of every born again believer in Christ we are the perfect church.

Oh for the coming day where we will all be holding to Christ... And Christ alone.

Originally Posted by aron

You may not be in the LSM but Ed Marks whose message you seem to have appreciated certainly is.

Originally Posted by aron

As are the vast majority who get enmeshed in their programme. But you may indeed be one of the few whose garments are not stained. Surely there must be some. ~Rev. 3:4

Originally Posted by leastofthese

...you seem to admit it is as flawed... if not more flawed then other local churches...

Originally Posted by Steel

so have no expectation of me doing so and you won't be disappointed... End of story.

Originally Posted by Steel

I'm not in the "...LSM..." and therefore have no need of surviving in the LSM.
According to scripture...
Being born again of the Spirit, I'm in Christ Jesus.
And my surviving in Christ Jesus is according to His mercy and grace which I receive (as all born again believers in Christ receive) every day.
Let me know if you need me to explain this some more to you.

Originally Posted by aron

...in order to survive in the LSM you have to know nothing. Like one brother said in the Great Rebellion of '89, "I'm proud to be an ostrich with my head stuck in the sand". Or Ed Marks, "I'm a monkey".

Originally Posted by Steel

And so when someone came and opened the doors we went inside and sat down to look at this televised bible study. Some people said hello, but other than that no one said anything else to us.

The speaker was Ed Marks, and he was speaking on Psalms 68... And what a wonderful speaking it was.

Word by word the brother opened up the scripture.

I remember turning to my wife and saying, "This guy is doing what I do, but doing it so much better."

And so that was our introduction to the LSM ministry..

Originally Posted by ZNP

I ate dinner at the church in NY tonight along with Ed Marks. I knew Ed from Houston, we were both in the church in Houston in 1978-1980, then we both went to Irving together during the construction of the meeting hall there. All in all we were together for 4 1/2 years. 3 years in Houston and 1 1/2 years in Irving. While in Houston Ed gave me his car.

So when I heard he was going to be here I wanted to get his side of the story about the letter he signed apologizing to Phillip Lee. I met Phillip Lee while in Irving. He invited me and about 12 other brothers to go for "fellowship". We sat and watched him eat lobster at a very expensive Chinese restaurant. When I returned to the worksite I realized he needed the 12 of us so that he could expense the trip as "fellowship with the workers on the Irving hall". It was very clear to me that PL was a lascivious, gluttonous, deceitful man.

So I asked Ed what his side of the story was concerning this letter. He told me that there is always another side. I told him surely you can tell me now what it is, that was 30 years ago. He said that he was "a monkey" and held his hands to his eyes and then his ears. I told him I would never assume that, I reminded him that he was mentored by Dirk Engels and George Farmer. I told him those brothers were serious brothers. He told me that PL "had gone to be with the Lord". I said that I was not there to speak negatively of PL, rather I wanted to hear his side of why he signed that letter. He said he didn't know anything. I told him that one of the sisters that was abused by PL had come to Houston, he had to have known, this wasn't the first time it happened, John Ingalls and the other brothers had excommunicated him after warning him. He said that "Witness Lee was very happy with that letter."

Shortly after this Dennis Cooley, a brother who has been in the leadership of the church in NY for about 20 years and a brother I know very well (I lived with his brother in a brother's house in Odessa Texas) pulled me aside. He was angry that I talked to Ed. I told him I've known Ed since he first came into the church life and I wanted to ask him a question and this is the first time I have seen him since this event happened. He wanted to know if I had some kind of agenda to disrupt the meeting, I told him I had no idea that Ed was coming until yesterday when it was announced in the meeting (I had just happened to visit, the first time in about 10 years). Dennis said that Ed doesn't want to deal with this now. I said this has been 30 years, when are you going to deal with it? I can understand 3 months after the event you don't want to deal with it because you don't have all the facts, but at some point you have to deal with it. Dennis asked that I leave and not attend the fellowship, so I left.

I understand that you cannot judge someone for a mistake they made the moment they make the mistake, but at some point it is time to say "I made a mistake". The Lord Jesus died on the cross to deal with sin. He treats the matter of dealing with sin very seriously. For Ed, or the elders in Anaheim, or for the leaders in the Lord's Recovery to pretend that they can ignore sin, pretend they don't see it, pretend they don't hear it is an insult to the Lord Jesus. Surely God the father will not wink at this sin.

Originally Posted by leastofthese

What has made you choose the LSM affiliated Church in Austin, rather than another local church in Austin?

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Why do you think the elder "jumped all over" you? Or this other brother "shouted" at you?

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Your post below is interesting to me. You don't deny the Church in Austin to be "...lifeless..." or part of the content of a "...museum display case... but say that you are not those things.

Originally Posted by leastofthese

You say that there is no leadership other than the Lord - but that brother that yelled at you clearly thought otherwise.

Originally Posted by leastofthese

I have found that there is a implicit and explicit hierarchy of leadership in the LSM churches - with Austin being no exception - I'm sure you'd agree as well.

Originally Posted by leastofthese

It seems like you are looking for the best in the church, or finding opportunity to see with Christ's eyes... the situation in the church - which is very commendable.

Originally Posted by leastofthese

What has made you choose the LSM affiliated Church in Austin, rather than another local church in Austin?

Originally Posted by Steel

I just came across this letter and found it interesting and relevant... Forgive me if it has already been presented...

Here is an excerpt...

"Open Letter to Brother Benson Phillips from Russia

Dear Brother Benson,

At the outset allow me to explain why I chose to write you an open letter, rather than writing you privately. Originally I wanted to write you a private letter, but then I learned that you do not read correspondence which is perceived to be “negative” in content. Therefore, I felt to choose this way of communication, hoping that this way my concerns will somehow reach you.
First of all, let me thank you for all the help and care I received from you personally. I still remember my time at the FTT in Moscow as the best time in my life. My present position is not the result of personal offenses. I was always treated with love and care. My present position is a truth issue."

The full letter can be found here...

http://www.concernedbrothers.com/CE/...rom_Russia.pdf

Originally Posted by aron

Never went to Austin. Maybe there it's different.

Originally Posted by Steel

Maybe about eight months ago I had a confrontation with an elder here in Austin regarding the matter of the ministry focused on the students of UT.

It was in a kind of district meeting when things related to the district are discussed.

The elder had just spoken about the needs of the "full timers" and the students they were shepherding... Specifically in relation to the opening of homes for these students to be brought to.

Wonderful... But having a concern of my own regarding the opening of my home, I suggested that we look at the matter from the homeowners point of view... Which I thought was perfectly reasonable to bring up.

Well... It seems that in the mind of the elder, it wasn't. And he jumped all over me.

But instead of responding in kind, I simply started calling on the name of the Lord... And invited him to do the same with me... And this got him even more upset... And even caused a brother to shout across the room at me, telling me that didn't I know that it was an elder that I was speaking to.

I just continued to call on the name of the Lord.

Originally Posted by Steel

Thing is...

I meet with the local church here in Austin... And I am certainly not "...lifeless..." or part of the content of a "...museum display case...".

And the only "...leadership..." the church has is the headship of the Lord.
.

Originally Posted by aron

Steel, my own impression of the "oneness" of the LC is that it's the oneness of a museum display case. Everything neat and proper, and completely lifeless. Anyone with initiative or originality is a threat to leadership.

Originally Posted by aron

Regarding the ministry, is that we were told to get the good building material - young, naive and vulnerable college students. No matter that the Lord had said to seek those who could not repay you in this age. And when I began to hear the voice of my Shepherd in scripture, I was told, "No, those are the vain words of fallen men". See my thread on the Psalms.

Originally Posted by aron

Eventually the choice became stark for me: the LC or the Shepherd. The ministry of the interpreted word, or scripture.

Originally Posted by Steel

And even more importantly... I take everything before the Lord (or at least try my best to).

For me, and my wife... And I speak only for me and my wife... This ministry has been some of the most helpful we have ever received.

In this I have no doubt.

And I share it without hesitation.

But I also know... And know this because of the ministry and my own experience... I also know that the ministry is just ink on paper... And because you read it, and even hold to it in a natural way... This does not mean that the reality it reveals is received, abided in, and lived out by the person reading/holding to it.

It's one thing to be hearers... Quite another to be doers of what we've heard.

Originally Posted by Steel

I have no interest in the politics or religiousity that is within the business of the ministry and gets forced on the local churches. All that I know is that, for me, the ministry itself is true.

Are there some shortcomings in the ministry... Absolutely.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

So Drake, my man. Have you been away from your computer? Your silence on this is deafening. It's not a trick question ya know....maybe your answer will be....but at least give koinonia the pleasure of a response on this one.

-

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

I left in the late 80's. From things I read here, it sounds like they doubled down on the WL/LSM symbiotic relation with money flowing one way and literature flowing the other.

Originally Posted by Terry

Probably things have changed over the years, but the exclamation point when giving announcements in closing the prophesying meeting had been marketing the standing order. If you don't sign up, you 're missing out.....

Originally Posted by aron

It started with Nee plagiarizing Penn-Lewis for Spiritual Man.

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

So we can conclude that LSM is not a New Testament ministry, but a business that plagiarizes others works, packages this and sells it as a Christian product, and rounds up Christians who think it is their duty to go out and sell it to others.
So LSM has training camps to teach people how to market their products.

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

So LSM has training camps to teach people how to market their products.

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

So we can conclude that LSM is not a New Testament ministry, but a business that plagiarizes others works, packages this and sells it as a Christian product, and rounds up Christians who think it is their duty to go out and sell it to others.
So LSM has training camps to teach people how to market their products.

Originally Posted by Ohio

W. Lee was allowed to steal ideas from everyone he wanted, and then peddled them as his own. But try to "stand on his shoulders" and LSM will slap a lawsuit on you.

Originally Posted by Koinonia

Drake, do you believe the church in Cleveland is a "true local church"? If not, why not?

Originally Posted by Koinonia

Drake, are you able (or willing) to answer this question?

Originally Posted by Ohio

W. Lee was allowed to steal ideas from everyone he wanted, and then peddled them as his own. But try to "stand on his shoulders" and LSM will slap a lawsuit on you.

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

If the New Testament ministry is "I own these concepts, these words, these spiritual ideas", and " I own every church I created", and " my business is going to be sure that everyone conforms to my concepts" and " what I produced is the real church, the real testimony". And the work of that ministry is to build the business- isn't that a major disconnect from church history? WL/LSM then owes the Lutherians and the Bretheren a lot of royalties, because WL took a lot of their concepts and words and sold them as his own.

Originally Posted by Koinonia

Drake, do you believe the church in Cleveland is a "true local church"? If not, why not?

Originally Posted by UntoHim

What is a true local church? If you asked this question of most evangelical Christians, I believe the vast majority would answer "you mean a Christian church at a certain location?" They might very well ask "what church?"

If the scripture writing apostles, lets say John, Peter and Paul, were suddenly to appear today, how might they answer this question, "what is a true local church?" Now while I wouldn't pretend to know for sure exactly what they would say, I think we might have some clues in the epistles these men wrote to the original local churches.

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Kerry makes $97,000. That is not a lot for someone to live in So Cal, however, I think he also gets an allowance for rent -- they might be providing living quarters that are valued at a certain amount. By splitting up these two they are able to say that no one is paid over $100,000.

Originally Posted by Koinonia

Nonprofits can and do make money. That is why your "work of ministry," LSM, has $100 million in assets.

Originally Posted by Drake

Nonprofits do not make money LofT. That is why they are non profit. They generate income that is offset by outlay and may have more income than outlay creating a fund balance but that is not profit.

What is it about “nonprofit “ that is unclear?

Check your facts.

Drake

Originally Posted by awareness

Quote:

This is all silly talk.

Originally Posted by awareness

This is all silly talk.

When I was in the LC there was no charge to attend conferences. So I never paid to go to them ... just the cost of getting there.

Charging for conferences came after Daystar.

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Sorry Drake, check your facts - non-profits can and do make profits, I can assure you.

Your denial of truth and distortion of words moves into the business realm. Where does it end? Praying for you Drake.

Originally Posted by Drake

Ohio>”Drake, the church in Cleveland is a true church because they believe the gospel of our Lord Jesus, they hold the Bible as truth, they have elders overseeing the church, et”

Ohio, it is called summarizing for the benefit of the listeners, not lawyering. It is part of a sensible discourse. It also gives you the opportunity to identify where we saw the dialogue differently. Not it’s conclusions but the course.

According to the definition you provided above the local churches you called false are not false at all.

Drake

Originally Posted by Drake

Nonprofits do not make money LofT. That is why they are non profit. They generate income that is offset by outlay and may have more income than outlay creating a fund balance but that is not profit.

What is it about “nonprofit “ that is unclear?

Check your facts.

Drake

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Sorry Drake, check your facts - non-profits can and do make profits, I can assure you.

Your denial of truth and distortion of words moves into the business realm. Where does it end? Praying for you Drake.

Originally Posted by Drake

-1

"... a non-profit can and does make money..."

This is an oxymoron. Non profit means just that. ... non profit.

But let's have a look at the financial filing and go from there.

Drake

Originally Posted by Drake

-1

"... a non-profit can and does make money..."

This is an oxymoron. Non profit means just that. ... non profit.

But let's have a look at the financial filing and go from there.

Drake

Originally Posted by Drake

Brother Ohio,

They cannot make money... they are a non-profit.

And other ministries charge for certain services.

Originally Posted by Drake

Brother Ohio,

They cannot make money... they are a non-profit.

And other ministries charge for certain services. Here is an example:

https://store.joycemeyer.org/product...?categoryid=60

But post the link here or the IRS filing and let's all have a look.

Thanks
Drake

Originally Posted by Drake

Brother Ohio,

They cannot make money... they are a non-profit.

Originally Posted by Ohio

LSM is the ONLY ministry I know which charges money for their words. Other ministries only receive good will offerings.

Have you seen their IRS sheets? They have made a boatload of money. The Gideons also give away free Bibles, and theirs are only God's word.

Originally Posted by Drake

You are using the wrong teaching to make your point. Peddling in these verses do not mean just selling the word for profit, but it means to dilute the word and then passing it off as the real thing.... like watering down the wine. Unlike Paul and his workers who spoke in sincerity and did not hold back or adulterate the word... they did not peddle watered down wine but provided the real thing.

I have never known Brother Lee nor his co-workers to dilute the word.... I think if they did peddle the word of God they would be financially better off. But they don't and that is the price they pay for speaking the word unadulterated. Also, if the purpose and mission of LSM were to make a boatload of money then they would not offer the books on their website for free. They would not offer the Recovery Version for free to anyone who wants one. They would charge for conferences, they would charge to come speak at a local church... but they do none of that.... they will waive the training fee if the circumstances justify it.... and I have haven't heard a request for DCP funds for decades.... but I never heard a "demand" to support DCP as you say. Never.

You are confounding making money with mission. You have completely missed the motive.

Drake

Originally Posted by Drake

If they were a true ministry and they did peddle the word of God I do not believe they would be very effective.

Originally Posted by Drake

Why do you ask? Drake

Originally Posted by Ohio

If a ministry peddles the word of God are they a "true ministry."

Originally Posted by Drake

I didn’t say you said that. You said the Church in Cleveland is a true local church...

Originally Posted by Drake

If the Church in Cleveland is, as you say, a true local church, in the mold of that defined by Watchman Nee, then so is every other church in that same mold. And they would also disagree with your contention that the "Church of Christ" denomination and the congregationalist Gospel Community Church are true local churches. if they are consistent. Given that perhaps you wish to change your vote and kick the Church in Cleveland to the curb also?

Drake

Originally Posted by aron

So when you see Jesus move in the gospels, he does so with fluidity. He assembled the thousands in companies of hundreds and fifties, and set ones over them. . . .Then he "fired" the company. He broke it up. It became fluid again..

Originally Posted by Ohio

I already started, you got side-tracked.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Joyce Meyer?

How would I know?

I left Cleveland forty years ago.

Originally Posted by Drake

Happy to discuss. You start by making your case from II Corinthians and I will enjoin.

thanks
Drake

Originally Posted by Ohio

That's why we must compare WL/LSM with Paul in II Corinthians.

For starters:

• 1.12 How apostles conduct themselves
• 2.17 Not peddling the word of God for profit
• 3.9 Not the ministry of condemnation on the whole body of Christ
• 4.2 Renouncing the hidden things of shame
• 4.2 Not walking in craftiness
• 4.2 Not adulterating the word of God
• 4.2 Commending themselves to every man's conscience

Originally Posted by Ohio

Gospel Community Church is a real local church.

The church of Christ is a real local church.

But you don't really care about them because they are not in your directory.

But why won't you compare LSM with II Corinthians? Too embarrassing?

Originally Posted by Drake

Ok. What work of ministry is the Church in Cleveland affiliated with?

Drake

Originally Posted by Drake

However, we moved on.....now we are at the point of having eliminated everything that LSM contributes to the local churches, to aron's great delight, so the question now on the table is what is the work of ministry for those local churches? ... using the Bible of course.

Thanks
Drake

Originally Posted by Drake

-1

Aron, you got as far as saying the work of NT ministry looks

.... “a lot like Jesus and and the discipled ones in the four gospels”...

... then you went back on script.

Using the Bible, please describe the work of ministry to the local churches. We’ve already wisked away your LSM list so no need to visit the nonexistent. Just the Bible at this point.

Drake

Originally Posted by Drake

Good. Now we are getting somewhere.

Do real local churches exist and if so, where?

Drake

Originally Posted by Ohio

Sure, of course, and many others in Ohio. All of which have been under seige by LSM.

Originally Posted by Drake

that's been done...... I explained in detail what the biblical definition of the NT work of ministry is... I have explained how the service of LSM fits that definition in service and their historical role for those local churches.

However, we moved on.....now we are at the point of having eliminated everything that LSM contributes to the local churches, to aron's great delight, so the question now on the table is what is the work of ministry for those local churches? ... using the Bible of course.

Thanks
Drake

Originally Posted by Drake

Ok. And the ministry they are affiliated with?

Is the Church in Cleveland also a real local church in your opinion?

Drake

Originally Posted by Drake

I have explained how the service of LSM fits that definition in service and their historical role for those local churches.

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

By the way, and maybe someone can correct me if I am wrong, but I sort of remember W Née and his books not being so popular because LSM did not have the copyrights to a lot of them.

Originally Posted by Koinonia

Drake, when are you going to demonstrate from the Bible that the work of ministry is LSM?

Originally Posted by Drake

Okay, Aron. For arguments sake, let’s eliminate every one of those ministry initiatives. Poof, they’re gone!

Please describe, according to the biblical definition, what the work of ministry to the local churches looks like at that point.

Originally Posted by Ohio

The church in Columbus is a real local church.

Even though LSM used a handful of malcontents to sue them and steal their meeting hall, they are still a real local church.

Originally Posted by Drake

Good. Now we are getting somewhere.

Do real local churches exist and if so, where?

Drake

Originally Posted by Ohio

Of course. The entire N.T. defines the work of ministry. Every book.

Your problem is two-fold. LSM fails as a ministry, and your LC's are not real local churches.

Originally Posted by Drake

Ohio,

Do you agree that there is a work of ministry for the local churches? Still, in our day? Not many here do, or if they do they have not bothered to define it based on scripture.

If you don't then no measure of executing that ministry matters.

Drake

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

This is the main difficulty in a discussion concerning WL/LSM. WL is not the apostle Paul, yet verses are used to describe WL's work in those terms, so that there is this kind of two step of he is/he isn't an apostle, yet the impression left is that WL was in the same as Paul, we just can't use those words. ‬‬

Originally Posted by Ohio

How about we examine ministries based on Paul's word in II Corinthians?

Why don't you start by commenting on Boxjobox' testimony of the LSM takeover in San Diego, since it violates II Cor. 6, and has been duplicated in nearly every LC.

Originally Posted by Ohio

How about we examine ministries based on Paul's word in II Corinthians?

Why don't you start by commenting on Boxjobox' testimony of the LSM takeover in San Diego, since it violates II Cor. 6, and has been duplicated in nearly every LC.

Originally Posted by Drake

Please describe, according to the biblical definition, what the work of ministry to the local churches looks like at that point.

Originally Posted by Drake

My goodness Aron. I’m not sure why you just don’t lay your case out for why each of these are so wrong in your view. I already said these were fair game so have at it.

Drake

Originally Posted by Drake

Thanks Boxjobox,

First, the BEMA is real. I cannot speak for the one that mentioned it to you first, but if you read my comment on it, I applied to myself, Witness Lee, and Watchman Nee as well. Every christian will be judged at the Bema for how they build on the foundation. Ultimately, He is the righteous Judge and I am certain we both agree on that. Though it may not have been presented to you in a considerate way it is nevertheless an important event that we should have in view while in this life.

Yet, I still do not understand what is your view on the New Testament work of ministry.... the scriptural view of course. Because, the situation can be cast in any number of ways, but the glaring vacancy in your description is that there appears to be no work of ministry to care for and shepherd the local churches. You are someone that at an earlier time was impressed with the teaching about the local churches and enjoyed the church life for some time. Along comes LSM and asserts itself as "the husband of every LC" in your view..... but to that I say, not so at all. I never felt LSM was a husband in the half dozen churches I was in for forty years. Not one iota. Not even a little bit. But then, I understood the relationship to be the legitimate work of ministry according to the scriptures for the building up of the local churches, not a husband because we have only one Husband. So we are servants with a commission obligated to carry out our function before the Lord. The work of ministry is not the duty of a husband, rather it is a service to local churches to build the Body of Christ. If you do not have the scriptural definition of the work of ministry in your understanding then you will misinterpret the relationship between the work of ministry and the local churches.

Lastly, it doesn't matter if the history tab on the SD local church website mentions Brother Lee. If the connection is important it is in the Link tab and there you will find it. I would prefer the history not mention the work through which it came about because each local church was raised up by the Lord no matter which servant was the instrument. Yet, no one is distancing themselves from LSM.... even the Church in Cleveland links themselves to LSM!

thanks for the dialogue
Drake

Originally Posted by Drake

Kumbaya>”Again, you want to agree to those guidelines.... then let's discuss it.

I really want someone in the LC to answer theses questions for me.

If not you, then someone else.”

Hi kumbaya,

If you want answers from local church members and since you are acquainted with members of a local church where you live and they with you why don’t you ask them your questions in private setting ? Wouldn’t that yield a better result? Alternatively if you insist on a public setting you could invite some of them to this forum and have an open discussion here. I sure everyone would welcome the fresh perspectives.

Drake

Originally Posted by aron

It's just a coincidence, is all. No association between Christians on Campus and the LSM or the LC.



Drake says this is unfair - guilt by association. Like saying, "Hitler ate toast. You eat toast. Therefore you are a mass murderer."

Even if LC misleads, controls, manipulates, shames & isolates, that doesn't mean it has anything to do with similar behaviours of known cults. Don't smear their good name(s).

Christians on Campus.
Continuing Steadfastly.
Little Bankers.
Vital Groups.
DayStar.
emanna.
Rhema.
Amana Trust.
Summer School of Truth.
Perfecting Training.
Bibles for America.
Youth Propagation Groups.
Linko.
Rainbow Booklets.
Gold bar.
Life Studies.
New Move.
Seven Feasts.
One Publication.

Originally Posted by kumbaya

I was implying that the PEOPLE leading Christians on Campus are all members in the LC. ... yes, the work is different but it's still the same group of people and they are literally EMPLOYED by the LC..

Originally Posted by kumbaya

Did you know it's a common cult practice to have recruiting arms that have different names than the groups they're trying to recruit for?

Do you think it's OK for the local church to fall in line with such a misleading practice that's used in Scientology and other cults?

I personally don't. Just be honest about who your group is.

Originally Posted by Drake

for the sake of expressing a vindictive opinion in a pubic forum you would potentially throw them under the bus without a care. Be more selective in your battles Aron so you don’t cause harm to the innocent.

I requested this of you in the past and doing so here again.

Drake