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01-10-2019 08:51 AM
countmeworthy
Re: Charismania, truncation, and understanding
[QUOTE=aron;82897]This begins to approach my thinking as well.

A couple of affirming points:

Quote:
~The gospels and the Acts until Peter visited Cornelius in Acts 10 were all law-keeping Jews, and everything written and said was with that assumed. Even at the end of the book of Acts, Paul publicly confessed that he'd been baptised by a law-observing Jew (Paul was accused of teaching the Jews to ignore the law).
BINGO !!!

Quote:
~The issue in the NT wasn't the Jews keeping the law (they did), but the newly-arrived, Jesus-believing gentiles, whether they had to keep the law (the answer was a resounding 'no').
But the converted Jews had a difficult time learning how to follow the Spirit. Jesus came to set them free from the law, the Mosaic law, the grain offerings, the animal sacrifices, etc. So when I would read Hebrews in particular chapter 10, I did not understand why I needed to know But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. 4 it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

I not only knew but experienced the Blood of Jesus wiping my slate clean when I got saved!


It now makes sense Hebrews for the most part is written to the converted Hebrews. They were still babes in Christ, learning but not sure on how to follow the Holy Spirit in them. They were considering going back and follow the LAW. But Paul was warning them that the blood of bulls and goats did not wipe their sins away. It was the BLOOD OF JESUS. It is the blood of Christ, Who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, purged theirs (and our) conscience from dead works to serve the living God.

Imagine the mockery they would have made of the shed Blood of Jesus had they returned to 'the LAW'?!

Thus many scriptures in Hebrews apply to me/to us gentile believers, the church.

Hebrews 10 starts with:
the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near.

Then in vs 16 which btw is repeated several times throughout the bible both in the Old and New testament and applies to me and you says:
Quote:
“This is the covenant that I will make with them After those days, says the Lord:I will put My laws upon their heart, And on their mind I will write them,”
See how the converted Jews are reminded they were FREED from the Law? He told them again the only way we could/can keep 'the law' is by inscribing it (HIM) in their hearts and cementing JESUS through His Holy Spirit in their minds. (as He does us).

Quote:
[B]He then says,

17 “And their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more. [/B
Again, did we gentile believers ever offer any kind of sin offerings? Go to a priest year after year, continuously? In essence, the New Covenant is for the Jews as as pagan gentile believers never followed or knew anything about God's laws prescribed in the OT. However the New Covenant applies to us too. What a blessing our sins and our lawless deeds God remembers no more. !!!

Quote:
~The fact that so many sects have arisen, seeing completely different messages from the exact same text (Holy Bible), makes one wary.
That's because they have not followed the instructions given in 2 Timothy 2:15 Be diligent (study) to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling (dividing) the Word of Truth. Btw, it has only been in the last 6 months I have come to understand this scripture.

Quote:
Context is needed, else you go somewhere funny. That includes the LC, who thought they were somehow immune!!
Yes!! And it brings on the spirit of confusion!!
In 1 Corinthians 10:32 (KJ) describes 3 classes of people. I never knew that until recently but here it is:
Give none offence, neither to (1) the Jews, nor to (2) the Gentiles, nor to (3)the church of God

Quoting Clarence Larkin:
While the bible was written for all classes of people, and for our learning it is not addressed to all people in general. Part of it is addressed to the JEWS, part of it to the GENTILES, and part of it to the CHURCH. (Why else would Paul make the distinction in 1 Corinthians 10:32?)

Larkin continues to write:
Quote:
While the whole bible was written for the instruction of the church, it is not all written about the church. The church is not mentioned in the OT.
Jesus said in Matthew 15:24
I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

He came to the JEWS first. The church is not even mentioned in the gospels!

The church is alluded to only once to my knowledge in the gospel of John 10:16 where Jesus tells His disciples: other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

That other fold is US gentile believers!

Learning how to read and study the bible has made me excited to read and study like never before. My love for the Lord, for His Word, to live unto HIM, to encourage the saints, God's people have ignited my spirit.

Thanks again for reading my insights and thoughts.
01-10-2019 06:44 AM
aron
Re: Charismania, truncation, and understanding
Quote:
Originally Posted by countmeworthy View Post
Me too Aron!! ME TOO!! It has been a frustruating journey on this matter until the last 6 months or so when I started to understand that the bible is written for all to read but it is not written TO everyone. Some of it is written to the Jews, some of it to the gentiles and the church which is a great mystery (Ephesians 3:8-10)

Even JAMES, the book Lee disliked if I'm not mistaken is not written to THE CHURCH! (though we benefit from it). Check out how it begins:
James, a bond-servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes who are dispersed abroad: Greetings.

It is not written to the converted gentiles. It says so right there. And there is a reason the book of James and the book of Hebrews are written to the converted Jews. But I will not go into my findings here.

Something else I learned this past year and that is that the book of Acts is a transitional book. In other words, it begins with the Jews being converted to Christ and being filled with the Holy Spirit. Acts 2 begins with:
And how is it that we each hear them in our own [i]language [j]to which we were born? Parthians and Medes and Elamites, and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea etc....visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, (Proselytes are converted Jews btw for those who did not know)

But when Paul came into the scene, the gospel went out to the gentiles. The gentiles never read the OT as the Jews did. They had no clue what the Mosaic LAW was.
This begins to approach my thinking as well.

A couple of affirming points:

~The gospels and the Acts until Peter visited Cornelius in Acts 10 were all law-keeping Jews, and everything written and said was with that assumed. Even at the end of the book of Acts, Paul publicly confessed that he'd been baptised by a law-observing Jew (Paul was accused of teaching the Jews to ignore the law).

~The issue in the NT wasn't the Jews keeping the law (they did), but the newly-arrived, Jesus-believing gentiles, whether they had to keep the law (the answer was a resounding 'no').

~The fact that so many sects have arisen, seeing completely different messages from the exact same text (Holy Bible), makes one wary. Context is needed, else you go somewhere funny. That includes the LC, who thought they were somehow immune!!
01-09-2019 01:42 PM
countmeworthy
Re: Charismania, truncation, and understanding
Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
More on "there's neither Jew nor Greek": If there is no Jew or Greek, then how is Jesus the King of the Jews?

"Where is he who is born King of the Jews? For we have seen his star at its rising, and have come to worship him". Such statements make no sense if Jews are to be effaced in the one new man.
Can't tell if you are being sarcastic or asking the question as 'food for thought'... One thing I do know is a lot of people do not have the answer and I am fairly, fairly certain the LSMrs surely do not have the answer.


Sooo.. I will do my best to explain..hoping it makes sense.

Jesus came for the Jews first as we know. The OT is written to the Jews. There is no Christian church. And the Jews in the OT and still today are waiting for their KING. Part of the reason the Jews rejected Jesus as their King is because Jesus was born in a manger not in a kingly mansion.

That's not what they were expecting in their KING. Even in the 4 gospels, Jesus is addressing the Jews not the gentiles, not the church. During the Tribulation, Jesus will reveal Himself as KING OF THE JEWS to the Jews who rejected Jesus.

But as KING of kings and LORD of lords, Jesus is KING to both Jew and Greek (gentile) In Christ, we are His body, whether we are Caucasian, Asian, Latino, African, Middle Eastern, Israeli, Jewish. In Christ, we are neither Jew or Greek (gentile).

.
Quote:
At the risk of creating my own reflexive mantra, I say again: Bad theology, loudly shouted, doesn't become good theology. Bad ideas, which diminish the inherent meaning of the text, are not magically rescued by enthusiasm and intensity of reception. If volume and repetition could transfer divinity, then the so-called Screamers (or Shouters) would have done so.
So very, very true!! Well explained too.


Quote:
I saw video smuggled out, which showed Lee's theology via his hymns being shouted over and over. But at the end of the day, it was just Lee's theology, uncritically received via repetitive shouting. They called it "eating God" and claimed it would make them God, but look what happened: after Lee was gone, things deteriorated such that Lee's publication organ LSM had to disavow them.
Christ Jesus alone is our SOLID ROCK. ALL OTHER GROUND is sinking sand. All other ground is sinking sand and that includes the 'ground of the Lee/LSM church'.

Quote:
I've had people come to me over the years and try to make me come under the law. I tell them, "Read Acts 15". It's clear that we can't compel gentiles to keep the law.
Me too Aron!! ME TOO!! It has been a frustruating journey on this matter until the last 6 months or so when I started to understand that the bible is written for all to read but it is not written TO everyone. Some of it is written to the Jews, some of it to the gentiles and the church which is a great mystery (Ephesians 3:8-10)

Even JAMES, the book Lee disliked if I'm not mistaken is not written to THE CHURCH! (though we benefit from it). Check out how it begins:
James, a bond-servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes who are dispersed abroad: Greetings.

It is not written to the converted gentiles. It says so right there. And there is a reason the book of James and the book of Hebrews are written to the converted Jews. But I will not go into my findings here.

Something else I learned this past year and that is that the book of Acts is a transitional book. In other words, it begins with the Jews being converted to Christ and being filled with the Holy Spirit. Acts 2 begins with:
And how is it that we each hear them in our own [i]language [j]to which we were born? Parthians and Medes and Elamites, and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea etc....visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, (Proselytes are converted Jews btw for those who did not know)

But when Paul came into the scene, the gospel went out to the gentiles. The gentiles never read the OT as the Jews did. They had no clue what the Mosaic LAW was.

Here's another thought. If a person insists we must come 'under the law' then they have to come under the entire law, not just part of it! That means they have to offer grain sacrifices, animal sacrifices, go to an earthly priess/high priest etc.

In truth, they are making a mockery of the PRECIOUS BLOOD OF JESUS who did away with all the grain sacrifices, animal sacrifices, earthly priests and earthly high priests and wiped away all our sins, past, present and future. Plus He remembers our sins NO MORE.

He is the LAW in us through His Holy Spirit working in us. Circumcision is no longer an outward sign. In the OT Jewish men were circumcised to distinguish them from the pagan men.

it is believed by many (including myself) that Joseph, son of Jacob convinced his brothers he was their brother by revealing to them his circumcision as they did not recognize him looking like an Egyptian...maybe even "walking like an Egyptian".

Then Joseph could not control himself before all those who stood by him, and he cried, “Have everyone go out from me.” So there was no man with him when Joseph made himself known to his brothers. 2 He wept so loudly that the Egyptians heard it, and the household of Pharaoh heard of it. 3 Then Joseph said to his brothers, “I am Joseph! Genesis 45:1-2

Quote:
,,,no matter how many times you shout that the moon is made of green cheese, and how loudly, it doesn't make it so. You may "enjoy" the warm glow for a while, but the "metabolic transformation" that you were promised doesn't automatically follow. The moon remains what it already was.
It is only the Blood of Jesus by the Power of the Holy Spirit and God's Living Word, Jesus that we are transformed. No amount of shouting, of 'pray reading' or reading the foot notes, or reading the revivals, parroting what Lee said, even reading the scriptures without the Spirit revealing Jesus to us transforms us. for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. 2 Corinthians 3:6

Thanks for reading and I hope what I wrote made some sense. Blessings to all.
01-09-2019 02:36 AM
aron
Re: Charismania, truncation, and understanding
Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
Jesus is King of the Jews and Saviour of the World (nations, or 'ethnoi'). He's both. The King of the Jews is to rule the world. . .some object saying "there is neither Jew nor Greek"; I reply, Why was Paul sending thanks from the churches of the gentiles (Rom 16:4) if there were no gentiles? How could Paul be the apostle to the gentiles (Eph 3:1; Gal 2:8; Rom 1:5) if there were no more gentiles?
And if there is no Jew or Greek, then how is Jesus repeatedly called their King? "Where is he who is born King of the Jews? For we have seen his star at its rising, and have come to worship him". Such statements make no sense if the Jewish race are effaced in the one new man.

At the risk of creating a reflexive mantra, I say again: Bad theology loudly shouted doesn't become good theology. Bad ideas, which diminish the inherent meaning of the text, are not magically rescued by our enthusiasm and intensity of reception. If volume and repetition could transfer divinity, then the so-called Screamers (or Shouters) would have done so. I saw video smuggled out, which showed Lee's theology via his hymns being shouted over and over. But at the end of the day, it was just Lee's theology, uncritically received via repetitive shouting. They called it "eating God" and claimed it would make them God, but look what happened: after Lee was gone, things deteriorated such that Lee's publication organ LSM had to disavow them.

I've had people come to me over the years and try to make me come under the law. I tell them, "Read Acts 15". It's clear that we can't compel gentiles to keep the law. "Yet not even Titus, who was with me, was compelled to be circumcised, even though he was a Greek" ~Gal 2:3 Any passage of the Bible, when taken out of original context, can be used to lead us astray. Coming into the LC, I didn't appreciate this as much as today.

And repetitive shouting doesn't prevent this from happening; rather it may enable deception. It may bring us to a weakened state where we're more receptive to theological nonsense. Put differently, no matter how many times you shout that the moon is made of green cheese, nor how loudly, doesn't make it so. You may "enjoy" the warm glow for a while, but the "metabolic transformation" that you were promised doesn't automatically follow. The moon remains what it already was.
01-08-2019 08:00 PM
countmeworthy
Re: Charismania, truncation, and understanding
Quote:
Originally Posted by byHismercy View Post
Aron, since leaving the Lee ministry, and coming to the awareness of my need to know more of Gods' word and proper doctrine, I have found many believers who 'rightly divide' scripture....in who it is speaking to....Gods' chosen race, or everyone else. What is your opinion on this point? Actually I would like everybodies opinion. Perhaps this is the wrong place to ask. No doubt it is. Forgive me! Kinda typical of me, huh? Lol please move this question if need be. I do feel this goes to the understanding without context question.
I am among those believers who in the last 6 months am being led by the Spirit I truly believe to learn to study and rightly divide the Word of Truth. I am understanding the Word of God with much more clarity now.

I had been pondering on starting a new thread on this subject matter because as I study, I have realized Lee and possibly Nee did not rightly divide the Word of Truth as instructed in 2 Timothy 2:15. Lee for sure ushered in the spirit of confusion and then some.

That's not to say they got all their teachings wrong.
BUT A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
01-08-2019 05:35 PM
countmeworthy
Re: Charismania, truncation, and understanding
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Bible says tongues are for a sign to unbelievers (I Cor 14.22).

Perhaps "shout/pray-read" qualifies?


01-08-2019 05:24 PM
aron
Re: Charismania, truncation, and understanding
Quote:
Originally Posted by byHismercy View Post
Aron, since leaving the Lee ministry, and coming to the awareness of my need to know more of Gods' word and proper doctrine, I have found many believers who 'rightly divide' scripture....in who it is speaking to....Gods' chosen race, or everyone else. What is your opinion on this point? Actually I would like everybodies opinion. Perhaps this is the wrong place to ask. No doubt it is. Forgive me! Kinda typical of me, huh? Lol please move this question if need be. I do feel this goes to the understanding without context question.
Yes it goes to the context question. The Bible gives its own context. It is there I find the answers.

One of the most puzzling verses to me was, "And the nations shall walk by its light; and the kings of the earth bring their glory into it." Who are the nations or Revelation 21? The RecV does the strangest thing, with the footnote saying, This is people, who are "justified ones" who are "unregenerated... but live forever". Not, mind you, the believers in Jesus. But "justified unbelievers"....??? What? Justified unbelievers who live forever?

I think that John, a devout Jew, albeit a Jesus-believing one, rather meant "Jesus-believing gentiles" by this. Because notice its pair: "the kings of the earth bring their glory" to it. The greek word for "nations" is 'ethnoi' which means gentiles, or non-Jews.

Jesus is A) King of the Jews; and B) Saviour of the World (nations, or 'ethnoi'). He is both. The King of the Jews is to rule the world. See Psalm 2, for example. Why do the 'ethnoi' roar in tumult against JHWH and His King? (v.1,2) and "I (JHWH) will give you (Messiah/King) the 'ethnoi' as your inheritance" (v.8). The "prudent kings" in Psalm 2:10 are the "kings who bring their glory into the Holy City" in Revelation 21:24. They tremble before the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, the Redeeming Lamb of God. See Psalm 2:11, as well, for confirmation.

In OT type, the 'nations' would come to the Light of Messiah. This is in many prophetic utterances. You can look them up. The pre-figure is Solomon; if you notice, the kings of the earth bring their glory to Jerusalem when he reigns. (see, viz, 1 Kings 4; 1 Kings 10; 2 Chron 9). This was the high point of the Jewish nation, which would be matched and even surpassed by the Promised King.

The first fulfillment is found in the birth/infancy gospel story of the 'magi' from the nations who bring valuables from afar. Then, the Greeks "wish to see Jesus" before he dies (he demurs). Then, Paul's the apostle anointed to "preach him among the 'ethnoi' (Gk)" (Gal 1:16), and he comes back bringing gifts from the ethnoi to Jerusalem. He says he's hurrying back to bring these gifts for Pentecost (the feast of gathered sheaves). (Acts 20:16)

Then, in Revelation, you have the climax - the 'ethnoi' bring their glory into the Holy City - the Holy City is now open to the nations. The gates are no longer closed.

Anyway, your question is a trick question: the answer is "Both". It's written to the chosen race, and also to the gentiles. You need two legs to run a race. God wants both, for the one new man.

Now, some object saying "there is neither Jew nor Greek"; I reply, Why was Paul sending thanks from the churches of the gentiles (Rom 16:4) if there were no gentiles? How could Paul be the apostle to the gentiles (Eph 3:1; Gal 2:8; Rom 1:5) if there were no more gentiles?

All the above, of course, is tentative, hypothesis, conjecture, not some claim to special knowledge or understanding, or "true light". But the context of the Bible seems to be suggesting this sort of narrative to me. It just seems to make the most sense. Otherwise one reads weird footnotes like the RecV in Rev 21:24.

Christian believers may indeed shout and yell, even repetitively (they may also pray in one's closet; or may do both, at different times). But what I'm offering is the opposite of "get out of your mind" spiritism, either LC version or other brands; what the thread title refers to as "charismania". I rather suggest sober, continual and unrelenting reflection, pursuit, and the humility to learn from others, until the light of understanding begins to dawn. It's a process. (And I have absolutely no idea where I am in the process. God only knows.)
01-08-2019 03:56 PM
Ohio
Re: Charismania, truncation, and understanding
Quote:
Originally Posted by byHismercy View Post
Ohio, I would add to what you advise and say, if you can display Jesus, if you have peace before a room full of unbelievers, to shout/pray-read, then do so. If you fear the witness of Christ in you is lost before them, refrain.
byHismercy
Bible says tongues are for a sign to unbelievers (I Cor 14.22).

Perhaps "shout/pray-read" qualifies?
01-08-2019 01:50 PM
byHismercy
Re: Charismania, truncation, and understanding
Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
Yes and the more context the better. Context brings understanding, and understanding brings changed behaviour, and changed behaviour brings transformation.

"Study, to show thyself approved"; the LC has "study" as part of PSRP, but study what? LSM theology? More verses out of context?

My point has been, there's a narrative there in the text. Repetition of itself will neither lead us further into or away from the narrative. It's a tool like any other.
I remember this as well. Bad theology, loudly screamed, doesn't become good theology.
Aron, since leaving the Lee ministry, and coming to the awareness of my need to know more of Gods' word and proper doctrine, I have found many believers who 'rightly divide' scripture....in who it is speaking to....Gods' chosen race, or everyone else. What is your opinion on this point? Actually I would like everybodies opinion. Perhaps this is the wrong place to ask. No doubt it is. Forgive me! Kinda typical of me, huh? Lol please move this question if need be. I do feel this goes to the understanding without context question.
01-08-2019 01:47 PM
aron
Re: Charismania, truncation, and understanding
Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
I was listening to a Christian musician go over and over a verse from the Bible. It was in a "Praise and Worship" setting, and the musician, a keyboardist/vocalist with a band, kept repeating the same phrase about 25 times.
Back to my story: I simply watched a video of a song being played. After the song was over, there may have been an outstanding sermon giving the proper context, or understanding, of the verses in question. I don't know. What I do feel is that the song alone, absent context, may bring emotional response. But without understanding there is no real change. And without context how can we have understanding?
01-08-2019 01:43 PM
byHismercy
Re: Charismania, truncation, and understanding
This morning I was reading Proverbs chapter 8 (because it's the 8th, of course). It personifies wisdom as a woman standing on high, standing at the doors, standing by the wayside. It places wisdom with God eternal, before the creation, always with the Creator. Wisdom goes together with prudence, which I translated 'caution'. I agree with all of you....Aron, Ohio, and Countmeworthy. Ohio, I would add to what you advise and say, if you can display Jesus, if you have peace before a room full of unbelievers, to shout/pray-read, then do so. If you fear the witness of Christ in you is lost before them, refrain.
byHismercy
01-08-2019 01:34 PM
aron
Re: Charismania, truncation, and understanding
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
context does help us, like lanes on the road to direct our prayers in the right direction.
Yes and the more context the better. Context brings understanding, and understanding brings changed behaviour, and changed behaviour brings transformation.

"Study, to show thyself approved"; the LC has "study" as part of PSRP, but study what? LSM theology? More verses out of context?

My point has been, there's a narrative there in the text. Repetition of itself will neither lead us further into or away from the narrative. It's a tool like any other.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
LSM really went off the rails during the semi-annual trainings of the "new way" era. WL, purportedly a perfected spiritual man, allowed all sorts of revelry in the name of God. I remember the rising star JJ going off with contemptuous ridicule while speaking on the conclusion of the Acts 15 council. WL loved to be extolled even at the expense of the Apostles..
I remember this as well. Bad theology, loudly screamed, doesn't become good theology.
01-08-2019 09:37 AM
countmeworthy
Re: Charismania, truncation, and understanding
Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
.... the musician, a keyboardist/vocalist with a band, kept repeating the same phrase about 25 times. But they would add things to "instensify" the verse and make the crowd hand-wave and arm-wave and stay engaged.

It made me think about the LC practice of pray-reading, taking one phrase and going over and over again, building "emotional context" or subjectivity into the word, but losing context in meaning, as the original sentence was once part of a narrative, with a beginning and an ending. In other words, there was a story there, once; now there was just a verse in a vacuum, filled with whatever imaginary things one might choose to put.
Everyone's experience in pray reading is different. While what you share here is true, Aron, and many people experienced just that, yours truly included, I sometimes did enter into the Presence of God through pray reading. Pray reading taught me how to meditate on the Word of God. I even used the pray reading technique to study for a test! It helped me retain my notes!

That's not to say I never experienced the emotional context... I did but it never felt real to me and due that my salvation from the Lord Jesus was so strong and intense, I believe I was able to discern what was real and what was fake, even in me.

I'm not sure when Matthew 6:7 came alive in me but at some point in my journey it did: when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

Jesus told us in John 14:26 that
the Helper, the Holy Spirit, Whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

These scriptures helped me to focus on Christ when I prayed or read/meditated on the scriptures. These scriptures were/are also instrumental in helping me to discern what is man's teachings for his personal gain, his/her control by manipulating the scriptures and to discern what is of the SPIRIT.

Unfortunately, I don't think the LC leaders (or many preachers for that matter) emphasized to us when we pray or study/read the word to read/pray from a pure heart.

We are told in Timothy to follow Righteousness,(Who is Christ Jesus) faith, charity,(Love) peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

Blessings to all
01-08-2019 08:55 AM
Ohio
Re: Charismania, truncation, and understanding
Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
It made me think about the LC practice of pray-reading, taking one phrase and going over and over again, building "emotional context" or subjectivity into the word, but losing context in meaning, as the original sentence was once part of a narrative, with a beginning and an ending. In other words, there was a story there, once; now there was just a verse in a vacuum, filled with whatever imaginary things one might choose to put.
Perhaps coming from Ohio, I have mixed feelings here. Christians have long taken a few words out of context and applied them to every situation in life -- e.g. "no weapon formed against us will prosper" -- but each of us can name dozens more.

As far as repetitive vocal sayings go, my golden rule is simple -- Is your heart and spirit connected to your mouth? As such, repetition is not bad, but when there is an internal disconnect, then the warnings of Jesus about vain babblings ought to be heeded. In this regard, context does help us, as aron has said, like lanes on the road to direct our prayers in the right direction.

The LSM system plays on emotional highs based on the lung's "volume control." The size of the audience also exaggerated the "high." The louder the "amens," the more fuel was added. It's amazing what people will say or do when given a camera and a microphone. Remember that famous line about 15 minutes of fame?

LSM really went off the rails during the semi-annual trainings of the "new way" era. WL, purportedly a perfected spiritual man, allowed all sorts of revelry in the name of God. I remember the rising star JJ going off with contemptuous ridicule while speaking on the conclusion of the Acts 15 council. WL loved to be extolled even at the expense of the Apostles.

Bottom line for me is our fallen nature loves vain glory. Remember to always connect your mouth with your spirit! If you can't scream Bible phrases -- aka pray-reading -- in private, then don't do it in public.
01-08-2019 06:53 AM
aron
Charismania, truncation, and understanding
I was listening to a Christian musician go over and over a verse from the Bible. It was in a "Praise and Worship" setting, and the musician, a keyboardist/vocalist with a band, kept repeating the same phrase about 25 times. But they would add things to "instensify" the verse and make the crowd hand-wave and arm-wave and stay engaged.

It made me think about the LC practice of pray-reading, taking one phrase and going over and over again, building "emotional context" or subjectivity into the word, but losing context in meaning, as the original sentence was once part of a narrative, with a beginning and an ending. In other words, there was a story there, once; now there was just a verse in a vacuum, filled with whatever imaginary things one might choose to put.

In this case, a phrase could be removed from context, with a few "special words" over-stressed, and suddenly a "hidden" meaning pops out! Suddenly we are ecstatic because "God has revealed His heart" to us. There's certainly a place for "Cry out and Shout, O inhabitants of Zion/For Great is the Holy One of Israel in the Midst of Thee"; but there's also context. There was once a meaning to the words, which conveyed understanding to the original intended audience. And, listening to that Christian musician, and the crowd focusing on a verse or two, and ignoring the rest of the chapter, much less the book, made me think that there was potentially a loss of meaning, a loss of understanding, associated with this kind of practice.

We've already lost so much by the intervening years; why lose even more by truncating the text into bites that we then re-configure according to our subjective and sensory leadings? Soberness is also called for, along with ecstasy.

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