Originally Posted by Boxjobox

Minoru, et al in some position in an undefined organization labeled " the Lord's Recovery" are standing at the crossroads. I would urge them to consider the words of the apostle John who directed us to look and return to "that which was from the beginning". Taking the stand as the church in a city is not a business proposition, nor is it a boastful power trip. It should be a very humble- clothed in humility, act of forsaking all that resulted from those over the history of the church who did not return to "that which was from the beginning". The RC which was a religious/political power trip is always standing before us as a warning sign not to go down that road. The WL/LSM fiasco is along the same vein. I would urge all those meeting as a local church to turn away from that road, to turn back to what was from the beginning- the love of meeting in the Lord's name, the rejection of positions, names, titles, a return to scripture, a genuine love of the Lord's people, and put on Christ in a real way- with humility, love, kindness, simplicity, grace and purpose of serving our head-Jesus. Do it for the sake of truth, for the sake of God's will, for the sake of the unsaved, and for your own sakes.

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Wow. Just shocking. So LSM is taking from the LCs individual collection in addition to/separately from the book sales? Is that right? That is a tough spot you were in. Starving fulltimers. That made me laugh. They were very well taken care of. The ones serving on my campus were received into all the saints homes and fed well by many families in Huntington, and Anaheim, and probably homes in between. I know, because I was with them, often.

Originally Posted by Cal

That post.... was brilliant.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Out of irony comes forth wisdom!

Originally Posted by Ohio

Officially the officers of a church organization must decide how to allocate offerings, choosing to forward designated offerings to another 503c4, or NOT. Designated offerings really mean nothing, in fact, the IRS can remove your tax-exempt status if tax-exempt offerings are passed thru to designated individuals. That did happen to at least one LC. It's against the law. Otherwise I could donate my salary to you, and you donate yours to me, and neither of us pay taxes on that offering.

LSM bullies member churches into funding DCP. They of course maintain plausible deniability, but there's no denying it. Quotas are spelled out based on attendance. In a sense LC's are complicit, instructing their people to give to DCP, stating of course that the offering should not be taken from their regular giving. In 2002 after the "Phoenix Accord" where all the Midwest and Blended leaders agreed to be nice to each other, we were instructed to send a check monthly to DCP. That ended when they quarantined us.

In the Midwest, we were "taxed" by both Anaheim and Cleveland. I always had a running battle with the elder over this. He would pad our meeting stats in order to look good during the elders meetings, but I was treasurer and knew that would increase our "taxes." Every month we battled who would get paid, the bank, the utilities, or headquarters. We obviously couldn't meet all our commitments.

One day I got a note saying, "if you don't give Cleveland more money, then full-timers don't eat." Since my team had no control over either the church offering or the church expenses, I rejected the insinuation that I was starving little kids. I resigned on the spot.

Originally Posted by byHismercy

It is much more the better to be separated from the LC in my experience. Once they have decided one is on the 'outside' is when they give one the boot. Until then, I was just kept in the dark to their decisive practices. Everything I learned about what really goes on, I learned after coming out. Looking back, the paranoia surrounding me in the saints I knew was growing because of the operation of the Lord in my life. I was involved with a friend who was deeply committed to the SDA church, and learning as much as I could about that group because the Lord had really burdened me with sharing the gospel with her. Others in the Jehovas Witness church were coming to my door. Here I am, running to my LC sisters for council on how to deal with folks in cults. It is almost funny now. I got the strangest, curt, cryptic replies from them.....now I'm pretty sure they thought I was using double speak tactically towards them.....ironic since I might not be capable of that kind of mental tap dance. It is really no wonder it all came down like it did for us. Praise Jesus!

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Ohio, I can remember the time after the Lords table meeting in the Church in Diamond Bar, the leading brother asking the assembly to specifically label the tithes for DCP because that was where funds were needed. Of course, we were only to do so if the Spirit led. What a joke. It made me so uncomfortable to be sitting in the gathered saints listening to them discuss the lawsuits and the 'defence' of the ministry. I could not contribute.

Do they need tithes to be earmarked for specific purposes, to be in accordance with some law?? This was a large church with four languages meeting, in a big hall, divided for the table meeting. Is it illegal for a church to funnel tithes into their own personal lawyers pockets without knowledge or permission from the contributors? Crazy this is even a topic to discuss, of a 'church' and its' business dealings. Is that why they asked us to write where we wanted the money to go on the checks??

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

So, let's say the apostle John decided after so many years to capitalize on his bible knowledge and position and started Patmos Ministery....

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Yes - think RCC or LDS or any of a number of organizations (using that term purposely). Better that they get torn apart than to continue, at least that's my opinion.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Of course. About the same time I was told that filing lawsuits was the same as "appealing to Caesar," as if suing Christians made us more scriptural than other Christians.

The Ohio LC's were never as extreme as other places, especially not in those early days. Some of the stuff I have read since leaving the LC's still makes my head spin -- like some of the abuses mentioned by the Casteels. It's no wonder they suffered so much retaliation.

There was, however, always an undercurrent of dissent in the region, that the Ohio leadership was not as "absolute for the ministry" as other places, especially Texas/Oklahoma. Thank the Lord for that!

During the Midwest quarantines, operatives from LSM/DCP built upon those long-standing dissents, as they moved in to divide the LC's and plunder their spoils.

Originally Posted by byHismercy

It seems like that spiritual pride, is leading to their fall. That was one way they opened the door to the enemy. May the Lord lead them into deep repentance. And may Jesus keep us all from spiritual pride and divisiveness, and other error, or shine into our hearts when we go away from Him. I just feel for all the individuals in the LC. The Lord can shine into our hearts and convict with the Holy Spirit, but it is harder to see, it seems like, if you are in a whole system of error, especially when you are being trained and indoctrinated to NOT LOOK!

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Ha! If you knew then what you know now! I am kinda assuming you were told that little nugget in the LC.....?

Originally Posted by Ohio

~40 years ago I was told an interesting deflection to the cult accusation -- that cults have "church-like" characteristics. Hmmm . . .

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Yes - Satan corresponding to our flesh. In many respects he's sort of a "one-trick pony" in that his approach is generally the same over and over. Even in Eden, it was the allure of pride in being able to see, do and control things apart from God. Pride strongly entered into the LC.

No matter how good something appears - think TLR in the 60s - if there's any opening for the enemy, then the flesh will rise up to take control. And the stronger the move of the Lord, the more the enemy will seek to control it. The speed at which this happened in the LC, however, is truly astounding!

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Yes, praise God for the exhortation and warnings of the real apostles in the word, Ohio! And you said it better than I. Scripture calls it another Jesus, but we know there is only one Jesus, this 'other' spirit is the enemy of God, working tirelessly to put a wrench in Gods' work.

It's important to see that the LR looks like a, walks like a, and quacks like a cult, it is indistinguishable from a cult in practice and form, in fact, and that, most all the cults I can bring to mind are deceiving people without claiming any faith in Christ. The LC look just like the world because, like those other cults, it has nothing to do with the Spirit of the Lord.

If I had known how the LC meets and ticks boxes that your average cult does, as a young believer first coming into contact (or getting love bombed) with them, I would at the very least, have been cautious or done some research on this group. Might have avoided the deception and the damage, although who knows? Those days were pre-internet, at least for me.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Perhaps you are right, byHismercy.

The Bible also points out the fallen nature, even in church leaders, of those not guided by either the word of God, the Spirit of God, the love of God, or the headship of Christ.

It is sad to see this same pattern in the unsaved, as you mentioned, but is doubly sad to see this in church leaders. The apostle Paul faced this same battle during his entire ministry, and thank the Lord much of that was recorded, otherwise we all might be stumbled seeing this for the first time in those who were supposed to "watch over our souls." (Heb 13.17)

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Ohio, I think the reason you see a pattern is because the same guy is driving both vehicles, namely, Satan. Same driver, same patterns of behavior, same old story. I see so many similarities in behavior when I contrast the unsaved with the local churchers. The unsaved (the whole world, in fact) lie in the wicked one, and it is impossible to discern any difference between the lack of love there(think shunning) and the lack of love and shunning the LCers dish out. I see patterns and similarities wherever that devil works, even if there is no blatant connection.....

Originally Posted by JJ

Actually J.N Darby “recovered” what you described https://bibletruthpublishers.com/chu...ical-4/la62754. Watchman Nee copied him. Witness Lee copied him. And, after much success they all ruined it by trying to force their ministries on the churches.

Boxjobox have you checked out one body.life, read any of Henry Hon’s books, or attended one of the events organized by one body.life? Henry Hon suggests a way forward for Christians looking for the assembly where “each one has” in his book One Ekklesia and often speaks about that at one body.life events. I’ve met a few saints from So Cal at those events you might want to connect with.

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Ohio, I think the reason you see a pattern is because the same guy is driving both vehicles, namely, Satan. Same driver, same patterns of behavior, same old story. I see so many similarities in behavior when I contrast the unsaved with the local churchers. The unsaved (the whole world, in fact) lie in the wicked one, and it is impossible to discern any difference between the lack of love there(think shunning) and the lack of love and shunning the LCers dish out. I see patterns and similarities wherever that devil works, even if there is no blatant connection.....

Originally Posted by OBW

I am not completely opposed to the idea of paying for things from a "ministry." But that generally means that the cost is reasonably close to its cost. In other words, I do not expect some ministry to spend resources to just give me something when I can pay for it.

And I have heard many who do "small-time" writing say that it doesn't make any money.

But when it is a major income source, unless it is the only way they earn anything and the overall income is reasonable, then I have a problem with it.

When someone asks for $10,000 to appear at an event that you set up and provide everything except him/her, and they do this, on average, weekly, then there is some "splainin" to do.

Originally Posted by Ohio

I have been mulling this thought against the facts of history for several days, and to me it presents several frightening aspects of "Recovery" ministry.

First consider the foundational ideals of those in the US who initially espoused WL's ministry as a co-worker of WN: Local assembly/churches each governed by local elders seeking the Lord to best care for their members while rejecting established traditions, and faithfully adhering to the N.T. pattern in the word of God. Localism without headquarters, eldership without hierarchy, all the saints functioning by the Spirit, centered on Christ, only Christ -- all watchwords for the blossoming movement.

How did we get from there to here? Was it normal evolution, chance happenings, or an orchestrated plan of events? How did the members and local leaders agree to these monumental changes? Did we all just go along willingly?

Here's what's troubling me. The pattern I'm seeing is the same one used by organized crime. Simply stated, goons are sent into "local" businesses and in the aftermath of the resulting dangerous chaos, "protections" from these same people are then promised in exchange for "local" assets and their liberties. In the resulting state of fear, this is then justified as the "cost of doing business."

Study both the "Max" and "Ingalls" rebellions, and I cannot arrive at any other conclusion. Did not WL effectively use the tactics of organized crime to transform the entire movement from an "Antioch Principle" local movement to a "Jerusalem Principle" high-control headquartered movement? Comments?

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

We used to say "so & so doesn't 'see' the church". Meaning, apart from all the history and movements in Christianity over 1900 years, there was still that thing " the church" and "the churches". Local assemblies of believers, gathering together as the called out ones, loving the Lord, the truth, the saints, fellowshipping together, growing in grace, keeping the word, breaking bread, etc., under the leadership of elders in the local assembly who understood and saw this. WL did a good job "recovering" this, and the saints seemed to flourish. Then we were introduced to a different side of WL- the businessman who saw a golden opportunity. His business rode on the back of the churches "vision" and in no small feat, put them all under the yolk of LSM. So the one who introduced meeting with no name took on a name and we can see, he himself lost the "vision". I say no small feat, because the elders and the saints should have whole heartedly rejected such a move. As we all know, some did, and we know the history of the whole fiasco.

Still, that "vision" of the church and the churches still exists, and still needs to be "recovered". I mean, what is the alternative? The pastoral business model of Christians filing into an auditorium and watching a pastoral performance, and a midweek bible study? No Thank You!.

You would think ones like Minoru would wake up from the LSM nightmare shake off the disgusting error and repent of the error. Elders in lthe LCs should do the same: Dump the whole LSM entrapment and return to the scriptures and the "vision".

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

So, let's say the apostle John decided after so many years to capitalize on his bible knowledge and position and started Patmos Ministery. He sold his parchment notes to the saints for 25¢ and his larger scrolls for $10. Being the last of the living Apostles, he insisted that all the churches follow him and only use Patmos Ministry material. Any that rejected this were declared poison. While acknowledging Matt, Mark, and Luke, he let the saints know that they were missing the mark of complete truth which he possessed. Jude, James were low. Paul, who had now fallen asleep, well, somehow John acquired exclusive rights to his material and now it was sold under the Patmos label.

John sets up operation in Ephesus, begins training in his new way, which reaps much profits in parchment sales. John realizes somewhere along the line that a ministry emphasizing love really won't work to his benefit, so shifts his emphasis to "truth" of which he declares himself sole proprietor.

Originally Posted by Ohio

As is often said by the power-hungry, "never let a good crisis go to waste," true to form WL used manufactured self-inflicted "storms" to slowly take over absolute control of all LC's. WL would use many other gifted brothers to build his empire, and went things went south, he would throw them under the bus. Thus every Recovery crisis would pass with WL appearing more exalted like some godman MOTA, and all the LC's forfeiting our liberties to him for his "protection" against these "ambitious" men out to deceive and "poison" us. WL had mastered these techniques in China and Taiwan and was ready to apply them to gullible Americans.

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

Jesus and the apostles never presented the vocabulary WL presented. The speaking in the church should echo what is plainly taught in the NT. WL's speaking and writings present a different gospel — my recollection is that he even boasted of a new heavenly language and new light.

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

This is actually the fundamental flaw in the whole "recovery" concept: A recovery of the church would first and foremost be a recovery and return to the vocabulary of the scriptures, apart from all the garbage that has been added over the centuries. Jesus and the apostles never presented the vocabulary WL presented. The speaking in the church should echo what is plainly taught in the NT. WL's speaking and writings present a different gospel- my recollection is that he even boasted of a new heavenly language and new light. The basic concept of gathering together as the church in a city, of not adding other divisive names, the priesthood of the saints, and the open fellowship, which were not of WL's origin were great- but then his LSM business with its warped concept of God and Christ corrupted the sweetness of the church, and the true fellowship of the saints. It was no longer are you a believer, but are you a 100% follower of WL and LSM.

Originally Posted by Freedom

All too often, I saw people in the LC who were amid a constant cycle of meeting and then not meeting. I saw church kids leave, only to get caught back in, pressured to attend the FTTA, etc. What drives people back? Is it because they don't know anything else? Probably so.

Originally Posted by kappagamma

I was required to attend every Sunday, as well summer school of truths, conferences, and even semi-annuals when I was older. I lived in a sisters house a few years in college and attended FTT-Anaheim for two years. I would say that I was marginally in the CL until the FTT. It was there that most of the issues that I had came to the forefront and I, from that point, couldn't ignore it anymore and made my eventual (but quiet) exit. To me it was just another religion and, having been taught my whole life religion was bad... well, there you have it.

Originally Posted by aron

The last sentence of the post being considered says, "I've left for some time, and have come back recently. - a young working saint."

The person left for some time - now, we don't know this person's circumstances but most leave with disillusionment. What was promised never got delivered. So they go out, seeking the temporary comforts and distractions of the world.

So why do they return, to what didn't work the first time? Why re-imbibe the failed promises of old? I believe it is this: they want something "more", and know it's somehow connected to the God of the Bible, and remain convinced that LSM has the "proper interpretation" of that promise.

The perceived alternative is what many young people on this forum write of - giving up on God altogether. The assumption in both cases is that God is accessed only through LSM interpretation of scripture. Either it must be embraced in toto, or 'God' rejected altogether.

But many of us who've gone on to read the Bible apart from it's current pen-builders (we have God in our theological box) have come to see that these are false alternatives.

Originally Posted by Ohio

It's a marketing scheme -- always treat new "customers" better than those old, reliable ones, who regularly get taken advantage of.

Originally Posted by Freedom

Would you mind clarifying your comments? In my last post on this thread, I referred to the LC as a system that has failed it's members. Consider each of the major so-called turmoils that occurred within the LC. Each resulted in significant numbers leaving the LC. Additionally, there are countless "church kids" that have left, as well as rank and file members who felt that the LC is no longer for them. As an analogy, I might compare it to a truck driving down the road and losing it's load (unaware that it's happening).

The future success and impact of the LC remains to be seen, I certainly am not one to try to predict that. But based on the current state of things within the LC, the outlook doesn't look very promising. Here is why:

• LC leadership seems oblivious to the real issues that they are faced with. Steve's letter to Minoru is an attempt to highlight this.

• There has been no reckoning in regards to past failures of the LC. Even some of those who have been affected by such things have been demonized. Until the LC takes responsibility for past wrongdoings, a great number of people will continue to have a negative perception of the LC.

• LC members are continuing to speak out and leave. Jo's letter is a perfect example of this, and this is just one case. The wide impact of the letter goes to show how many current LC members are getting restless.

With these points in mind, to me it seems nonsensical to hear anyone in the LC talking about being brought into a more 'advanced' level of enjoyment. So that is supposed to happen in spite of all these things? That is supposed to all happen while current LC members are trampling on those who have concerns and less-than-positive experiences? Really?

It simply does not work that way. Going back to my analogy, sooner or later, the LCM will have to realize that they can't continue on full speed ahead. The only 'release' that has happened is that they have lost much of what gave them the potential to be an impactful movement in the first place. Some in the LC might think that all those who voiced concerns or spoke up were just weighing the LC down. Quite to the contrary, these people provided something very necessary - the feedback the LC needed to improve upon.

Originally Posted by aron

So why do they return, to what didn't work the first time? Why re-imbibe the failed promises of old? I believe it is this: they want something "more", and know it's somehow connected to the God of the Bible, and remain convinced that LSM has the "proper interpretation" of that promise.

Originally Posted by Nell

I remember Benson Phillips saying virtually the same words in the late 60’s. THE LATE 60’s!!! The words he used were “just you wait!”

Originally Posted by OBW

There it is . . . MTLCGA! Make the Local Churches Great Again!

And like the other "great again" slogan, the unanswered question is when you (me, whoever) thinks that was. If it ever was. Typically it is presumed to be some time before most can remember.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

There is a sense, among us who are still meeting, that the Lord is bringing us on to a more advanced level of “enjoyment”. That letter is not far fetched from what’s to come in the LC in the coming years. Just wait and see. There is going to be a big “release” in the coming years. I’ve left for some time, and have come back recently. - a young working saint.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Minoru and others have called for revival in the Local Churches for decades.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

There is a sense, among us who are still meeting, that the Lord is bringing us on to a more advanced level of “enjoyment”. That letter is not far fetched from what’s to come in the LC in the coming years. Just wait and see. There is going to be a big “release” in the coming years. I’ve left for some time, and have come back recently. - a young working saint.

Originally Posted by Freedom

They have the information in front of them. They have the numbers. They see that a problem exists, but they can't (or aren't willing to) pinpoint it to its origin. For example, Minoru was around in the late 80's when LC members left in their masses, and he had somewhat of a hand in that. Later on the blendeds go quarantine churches/leaders in an entire region of the U.S. and they think nothing of it. Then they wonder why their numbers are down.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Originally Posted by Curious

For those floundering, their helplessness is compounded from multiple directions. Trying to live up to being "God in life and nature" but actually being under-resourced to even function normally is not an equation that can add to a good result. This from persons born-in, second generation LCers! They are supposed to be flagships for the cause, evidence of it’s ‘reality’!....yet another source of pressure to be a living example of a schema that just doesn’t work, because it’s not actually truth.

Originally Posted by Indiana