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01-08-2017 05:41 PM

TLFisher

Re: My situation with the LC

I was meeting with a NW locality in the 90's where it appeared normal for non-LC/LC relationships even to the point of marriage. Quite the contrast from where I lived in California as Freedom had indicated in his post.
Having known and observed various couples it really comes down to ones orientation with "the ministry". Some are absolute for the ministry while others the local churches is the only Christian fellowship they've had though not being absolute for the ministry.

01-02-2017 03:53 PM

Evangelical

Re: My situation with the Local Church

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Have you suddenly become a stickler for facts? Perhaps a New Years resolution?

Factually speaking, yes.

01-02-2017 03:21 PM

Ohio

Re: My situation with the Local Church

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Drake said that. Check your facts first before posting.

UntoHim has made some factually incorrect statements about the local churches regarding the view of marriage with non-LC members as being unequally yoked.

Have you suddenly become a stickler for facts? Perhaps a New Years resolution?

01-02-2017 02:11 PM

Evangelical

Re: My situation with the Local Church

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

First you tell OGOP that, if he truly loved the girl, he should cut his ties with her because the demands upon her would be too great.

Then you say it happens all the time, and being unequally yoked is not a problem.

01-02-2017 10:29 AM

Ohio

Re: My situation with the Local Church

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

It must be nice for these couples where everyone looks on you as "being unequally yoked" as though an ox and a donkey were married.

"It happens all the time" -- is that like putting a positive spin on babies born out of wedlock, children of the saints leaving, and people marrying outside of the confines of the church?

It is one of the Recovery's greatest evils to place their system above marriages, "That God has joined together." Even the so-called "degraded" denominations do not do this.

01-02-2017 08:57 AM

ZNPaaneah

Re: My situation with the Local Church

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

01-02-2017 05:54 AM

Ohio

Re: My situation with the Local Church

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

If true, the "unequally yoked" view is no worse than the belief held by many baptists, Presbyterians, Catholics and Lutherans etc. That is, to marry someone of another denomination may bring difficulties and one of the two will have to compromise their denominational beliefs to join the other's denomination, or find a third denomination.

Anyway what you say of the local churches regarding being unequally yoked I have not found to be the case in my experience. A number of people in the movement have taken wives from non-LC churches, and Drake can probably confirm this.

01-01-2017 10:17 PM

Evangelical

Re: My situation with the Local Church

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

And Drake could not possibly know OGOP's girlfriend is not the exception in their particular LC...unless he is claiming to be like Witness Lee, who claimed in his speaking to be virtually omniscient and omnipresent, everywhere in every place since the beginning of the church. To say that "dating is not encouraged" is a whopper of an understatement. In general, entering into any serious relationship outside the Local Church denomination is considered as "unequally yoked" (as if a Christian brother or sister is some sort of unbeliever) and this should not be a hard concept to understand considering the horrific attitude towards Christians outside of the movement.

01-01-2017 06:29 AM

Drake

Re: My situation with the Local Church

OGOP) "The problem is when you're born and raised in a life, and know absolutely nothing else, you're not going to take well to somebody telling you its time to leave it all behind. All your friends, your entire social life, some of your beliefs, etc."

Brother, you really want this girl to leave her friends, companions, social life, and beliefs all behind? And knowing that she would not take well to you for saying its time to leave it all behind you think to conceal your true feelings from her?

If this is love, its not the marrying kind.

I think you should meditate on posts #7, #9, #10, and #11 on the first day of this hopeful new year and every day therafter until they sink in. Let their message penetrate your heart deeply, else I think both you and she are heading for a world of hurt.

Drake

01-01-2017 05:54 AM

Drake

Re: My situation with the Local Church

Intothewind) "i dunno what universe Drake is reporting from. Even couples in the LC follow strict unspoken code that has been laid out."

The universe part of your statement I get, but what is the "strict unspoken code" and how is it different from what i said?

Drake

12-31-2016 09:51 PM

Intothewind

Re: My situation with the Local Church

As someone who grew up in the LC and left, I understand your situation.

I actually pendulumed all the way out of Christianity, but looking back what I can tell you is people are not very rational creatures.

Even growing up in the church, I saw some read flags. The buying up and taking down of a dissenter(Moran)s website when he passed was excitedly announced in a mtg in 6th grade. The lawsuits, apologetics journal, culture.

I eventually left. I left partly out of disgust that some elders saw a vulnerable time in my life as a time to pressure me to attend the training. Id like to say I thought my way out..but mainly I escaped because the fear of the unknown because less than the pain of staying.

I dunno what universe Drake is reporting from. Even couples in the LC follow strict unspoken code that has been laid out.

Youre asking this girl to literally throw out everything and everyone she has ever known. Its great you understand that. That is not something you can convince her to do in a logical manner.

I would be supportive, and know your boundaries, and make sure you have a network outside the LC. One fear of people raised in it is that genuine love and friendship wont be found outside. This is sadly often taught.

12-31-2016 01:53 PM

UntoHim

Re: My situation with the Local Church

Quote:

Originally Posted by OGOP

My girlfriend is the exception (dating outside the LC)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

No, she is not and you could not possibly know differently given your limited experience. And "dating" probably happens more outside than it does inside since dating is not encouraged,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

..and yet you talk about laying out plans and schemes. There is love, then there is love. There is love that makes a man desperate, then there is love that puts her first, shares the heart, that can wait for things to be right, that relies on the Lord and His timing.

Please excuse our friend Drake, he apparently lives within the hermetically sealed confines of the Local Church of Witness Lee, where people are not free to make their own plans, especially young people, who are expected to follow the person and work of Lee in every aspect of their lives, even in such intimately personal matters as choosing a spouse. This is especially frustrating and confusing for American young people, who are being adversely affected by the Chinese/Asian culture of meddling and matchmaking. As has been noted on this forum, this culture of meddling and matchmaking has made for quite a number of unhappy and even miserable marriages. Due to the culture of secrecy in the sect, we will probably never know just how many marriages fell apart, but it seems there were far too many for a place that claims to be "THE Lord's Recovery".

I certainly can't blame OGOP for being at least a little desperate. The woman he loves and wants to be with for the rest of his life is being influenced not by "the Lord and His timing", but by the teachings, practices and culture of some obscure religious movement whose teachings, practices and culture stand at odds with not only traditional Christian teachings and practices, but with the common and accepted cultural norms of modern Christian people in this area of the world.
-

12-31-2016 11:00 AM

ZNPaaneah

Re: My situation with the LC

Quote:

Originally Posted by InChristAlone

For me, WL is a false teacher, the LRC is the Witness Lee Bible study group, full of very nice people, but whose "recovery" is nothing but a dangerous imitation of the Lord’s gospel. "Dangerous" because it doesn't lead its followers anywhere. They delude themselves, thinking that they are working for Christ, building up His Church. While in reality, they are just servants of a man-made business organization.

Wow, I love that -- Witness Lee Bible Study Group. How about Witness Lee Bible Study for short? WL BS?

As for "in reality they are just servants of a man-made business organization", that hurts. I would hate to think that this is how the Lord would view my service. Instead I will stick with the verse "serve as unto the Lord". If your service was, as Ed Marks said, to please Witness Lee, then yes, it will be weighed as servants of a man-made business organization. But if your service was as unto the Lord then you would not have had respect towards man (trust me everyone in the WL BS will be tested on this at some point). Then it would not be right for the Lord to forget that.

12-30-2016 10:03 AM

InChristAlone

Re: My situation with the LC

OGOP, thank you for your testimony.

I don't feel I can tell you anything more thoughtful than the brothers who left their comments in this thread. Let me just share my personal experience.

I met my wife many years ago when both of us were students. Later, I found out that she was a member of the LRC. But that wasn't a big problem for me since I was a nominal Christian. To me, the LRC was another Christian church. So, after a few years of dating, we got married. I wasn't a member of the LRC but everyone welcomed me with open arms. Partly, because they were really nice and sincere people. Partly, because (as I believe it now) they saw me as a potential brother. Though, I still believe in their natural sincerity and friendliness more than in their failed expectations. (I can't complain. Then and now, my ex-brothers and sisters have always treated me well).

After our marriage, my parents-in-law tried to convert me into their faith. I refused the baptism a few times (since I had been baptized before and the Creed says: "I confess one baptism for the remission of sins"), so my new Dad and Mom let me alone. My wife was more gentle in her approach. She knew it was useless to pressure me. So, she never forced me to do anything. It was always my or "our" common will.

Thus, I started to attend meetings, conferences and trainings in my locality. And of course, every Sunday I followed my wife when she was going for the Lord’s Table meeting. I was not very active but I read the Morning Revival, prayed, "prophesied" and even broke the bread since we didn't have many brothers in our hall.

With time, all those meetings became a routine for me. Not that I hated or enjoyed them much. But they were the only form or expression of my Christian spiritual life. Now, I realize that it was not a true life in Christ but its imitation. However, years ago, I couldn't tell the difference. I was happily married and the center of my life was not God but my beloved wife.

I read some critical articles (in my native language) about the LRC but they didn't bother me. When you are dreaming, you are not realizing that it is the illusory reality of a dream. It is the same with life in the LRC. You can read all those alerts, warnings and negative reviews, but you brush them off because you accept your dream for reality, finding out an explanation to the weird things.

After a few years of marriage, I started to feel that our life in the LRC didn't bear any fruit. Well, I could blame myself for my lukewarm heart but when I looked around, I saw that my wife and I were not the only ones without any progress. It wasn't just our problem. It was a common issue in the LRC even for her zealots. Numerous meetings, trainings and conferences didn't draw people nearer to the Lord. The glorious church life didn't work. It didn't have power to transform people's hearts. No matter how hard they tried, all their efforts were in wain. And I was one of them. I was full of passions which I didn't even notice. I was nothing but a barren fig tree. (Not that I am much better now. But at least I opened my eyes a little bit and can see clearer who I am (just a great sinner) and why I need our Lord and Savior).

So, I became more cautious towards the LRC. I started to listen to the elders critically. I found this forum. It waked me up and helped me a lot to realize the nature of the LRC. And then I decided to help my wife open her eyes.

I started to study more about the Christian faith, church history, Witness Lee, the differences between the LRC and other denominations, etc. Long story short, all my attempts to talk to my wife failed. I was talking to a wall. She had never been interested to know anything new. She had her answers before I could start asking questions. Most of our conversations ended up with quarrels, anger and insults. Even when I controlled my hot temper, my wife rejected any arguments. She could hear but never listened.

Thank God, we still kept the marriage. I believe my wife to be the best woman I ever met. In spite of anything, I am happily married because our marriage is based on love, trust, and mutual respect. But there is one important thing that my wife and I are lack of. It is spiritual union.

For my wife, WL is like a prophet and a new apostle, the LRC is the only genuine Christian Church and her teachings are the recovered Christian faith. For me, WL is a false teacher, the LRC is the Witness Lee Bible study group, full of very nice people, but whose "recovery" is nothing but a dangerous imitation of the Lord’s gospel. "Dangerous" because it doesn't lead its followers anywhere. They delude themselves, thinking that they are working for Christ, building up His Church. While in reality, they are just servants of a man-made business organization.

So, it is useless to discuss the topic with my wife. I tried to do it in different ways but always failed. In most of other things, she does listen to me but not when we try to discuss her or my faith. I brought her to an Orthodox church. I introduced her to some priests and nuns. She has a very good, friendly relationship with them. Well, that was a big step for her because originally she was set against my attempts to go back to my church. At least now she doesn't mind (at least outwardly) when on Sundays we attend different churches.

My wife is still an active member of the LRC. Only God's grace can help her to see the truth. I can only pray. Witness Lee has always been a God's oracle for her. Other Christians, especially us Eastern Orthodox, are some kind of a weird ancient brontosauros who didn't catch up with the oracle.

Once again, my wife and I have physical and mental union. But we lack of spiritual union. (Though I am sure God blessed me with my wife for a reason). Our home and we ourselves are not a small church, united by the Holy Spirit. I am not sure if I am able to explain what it means. I will just say that spiritually, we live on different planets. It doesn't mean that my planet is better or I am closer to God. (In many ways, my wife is a better person and a much better Christian than me). We are just separated by the distance. I feel the centers of our lives are in different galaxies.

I have been married for 10 years. We do love each other. And I don't have any intentions to divorce my wife. But if I had a choice to go back and choose not to marry my wife, I would not have married her. The lack of spiritual union doesn't make my marriage complete. It is not the whole thing. It is not something that is capable to grow. It is alive, not dead. But it is limited and it doesn't bear spiritual fruits.

I know neither you nor your girlfriend. Besides, we have different backgrounds, so I doubt if you will have a similar experience. I just wanted to share what makes my marriage uncompleted. You don't need to learn from my poor experience. But I would ask you to listen to the brothers who gave you a good piece of advice in this thread. In short: Pray. Be honest with your girlfriend. Don't depend on your emotions. Don't depend on a man/woman. Depend on God. Leave everything to the Lord. Don't look for your way. Ask for His way for you.

There is one more advice that helped me and my wife a lot lately. I got it from my priest. If you face a dilemma and can't find a solution, read a few chapters of the Gospels in a row (with attention, reverence, humility and gratitude) before you sleep. Then pray (again - with attention, reverence, humility, repentance, and gratitude) and ask the Lord for His guidance and help. My wife and I did it once (we read the Bible together) and received the answer next morning. Criteria of the right decision were clear thoughts, assurance/confidence in the right decision, and peace of mind.

May the Lord bless and help you and your girlfriend.

Please excuse my poor English and forgive me if I offended someone's feelings.

12-29-2016 04:21 PM

Cal

Re: My situation with the LC

Quote:

Originally Posted by OGOP

I don't agree with: "If they agree then great, if not go your separate ways and move on."

Whether it be a friend, bf, gf, etc. If you care about somebody you should give it your all to help that person find a "healthier church", if you will.

What I meant was don't get contentious with her or try to push her. One thing all men need to learn about women is we can't make them do anything. Trying to just makes things worse.

Part of my point is that if she doesn't want to leave the LCM and you don't want to join you probably should put the "couple" side of your relationship on the back burner until you are on the same stove. Does that make sense?

12-29-2016 03:46 PM

Nell

Re: My situation with the LC

Quote:

Originally Posted by OGOP

...Whether it be a friend, bf, gf, etc. If you care about somebody you should give it your all to help that person find a "healthier church", if you will.

OGOP,

You're not wrong. However, you've stumbled onto a forum of believers who have spent 25+ years, in some cases, trying to help those we love find a "healthier church" and failing miserably.

You can't help someone who doesn't want help, or someone who believes they don't need help and that they are right and you are wrong. You already know this.

Giving it your all to help someone means that "help" takes many forms, one of which is walking away.

One amazing and frustrating thing about the God we love and serve is that he has given each of us a free will. Not even God will violate our right to choose...the right He gave us, the right he gave you and the right he gave the woman you love.

For 15 years as an LC member I heard all the stuff about the LC being a cult. I saw the mistreatment of the saints by the leadership. I went through their abuse myself and it was horrible. Yet I stayed. I heard teachings that I questioned. Some things I couldn't and didn't believe...yet I stayed. One day I picked up a handout about one of the lawsuits that outlined all the accusations against "us". Then I had a thought that was clear as a bell: "everything they are saying about us is true." This was light from God Himself and I will never forget those words. This was God's mercy to me. No one was pounding on me to "see". No one was talking to me to see the wrongs of the LC, but one day God opened my eyes. I could never "unsee" the truth God had shown me. At that point, in my heart, I was no longer in the LC. I began planning my exit and when the time was right, I attended my last meeting and never looked back.

You can't make anyone "see" anything. Only God gives light. By God's mercy He rescued me. He alone opened my eyes to the truth. Everyone is different, but until your friend is ready and prepared by God to "see and hear", you can only follow Him and pray for her.

I pray that your path will be full of light, full of God's mercy and His wisdom and that the "help" you provide will be His help.

Nell

12-29-2016 01:48 PM

OGOP

Re: My situation with the LC

Quote:

Originally Posted by Igzy

I would say the worst approach would be for you to suggest she should leave the LCM so that you two can be together.

Agreed.

Quote:

Then you just have to wait to see how she responds, and live with it.

This is where I disagree. When somebody you love and care about is in an organization like the LCM, in my opinion a borderline cult, you don't just speak your mind and leave it at that.

I don't agree with: "If they agree then great, if not go your separate ways and move on."

Whether it be a friend, bf, gf, etc. If you care about somebody you should give it your all to help that person find a "healthier church", if you will.

12-28-2016 09:39 PM

Cal

Re: My situation with the LC

If this girl really cares about you then she's going to care what you think.

I would say the worst approach would be for you to suggest she should leave the LCM so that you two can be together.

Probably what you should tell her is that you care a lot about her (love her) but you just cannot see yourself in the LCM. You can go on to tell her why but do it in a way to show you care about her and her future. In other words, be selfless.

Then you just have to wait to see how she responds, and live with it.

But I'm afraid the practical lesson of this situation is don't fall in love with people in groups like the LCM.

12-28-2016 08:32 PM

OGOP

Re: My situation with the LC

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

You do not appear unable to express yourself here so what is the issue doing so with her?

The problem is when you're born and raised in a life, and know absolutely nothing else, you're not going to take well to somebody telling you its time to leave it all behind. All your friends, your entire social life, some of your beliefs, etc.
I've expressed my views to my girlfriend many times before about problems I have had with how certain things have done. It's different now because I'm not just sharing with her my distastes with certain aspects of the LC, I would be sharing that I want to leave, period.

It is different this time because I've started reading about all the cult-accusations online and controversies regarding Witness Lee and LSM. Up until a few days ago, yeah I had grievances with the LC and felt uncomfortable with some of the practices. BUT I chalked it up as being new to religion in general and that is was just a few bad people involved with my locality.

I've now been researching the "denomination" online and its not JUST church in general and its not just my locality. I've read testimonies all over the web, not just this site, about people leaving the LC for MANY reasons. Maybe I'm wrong, but you can't just sit down somebody and tell them in one sitting that their entire life has been lived in such a flawed organization.

I've been praying a lot these past couple days and appreciate all the prayers and advice I've had on this thread.

Maybe I'm overcomplicating this, but I'm really worried about going from 0-100.

OGOP

12-28-2016 08:13 PM

Drake

Re: My situation with the LC

Quote:

Originally Posted by OGOP

My girlfriend is the exception (dating outside the LC)

No, she is not and you could not possibly know differently given your limited experience. And "dating" probably happens more outside than it does inside since dating is not encouraged,

Quote:

Originally Posted by OGOP

I do not want to raise my family in the LC.

Okay, tell her that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OGOP

I really need advice on where to go from here, and I'm not sure if anybody else here as found themselves in a situation in any way similar to mine.

Yes, similar.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OGOP

Even if you haven't, knowing what you know about the local church, how would you go about explaining to somebody who was born and raised in the "church life" about my concerns.

You do not appear unable to express yourself here so what is the issue doing so with her?

Quote:

Originally Posted by OGOP

Here's what I'm leaning towards doing right now... Thoughts?

Brother, you have heard a lot of sound advice about prayer, waiting on the Lord, honesty with yourself and her, letting the Lord unfold the matter, and yet you talk about laying out plans and schemes. There is love, then there is love. There is love that makes a man desperate, then there is love that puts her first, shares the heart, that can wait for things to be right, that relies on the Lord and His timing. You've heard as much here already and it won't get any better than that.

Drake

12-28-2016 07:38 PM

OGOP

Re: My situation with the LC

Theres a couple things I think I need to address.

Firstly, I wanted to clarify that YES I have many grievances with how the LC handles relationships. Many of you have shared similar experiences and it is clear to me, whatever anybody else may be saying here, that it is a systematic aspect of the LC.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

My girlfriend is the exception (dating outside the LC), and the way our relationship has progressed (being without involvement from the elders) has been under attack from church elders from the beginning.

Nevertheless, my issues with the "church life" after my 18 month involvement reach FAR beyond the issue of dating. The "exclusiveness" of the culture, the biblical interpretations, all the controversies surrounding LSM, the FTTA, etc.
I do not want to raise my family in the LC.

I really need advice on where to go from here, and I'm not sure if anybody else here as found themselves in a situation in any way similar to mine. Even if you haven't, knowing what you know about the local church, how would you go about explaining to somebody who was born and raised in the "church life" about my concerns.

Here's what I'm leaning towards doing right now...

Rather than coming out and laying out all the facts about LC controversies and sharing some of the horror testimonies out there online about LC experiences, Im just going to ask her to check out a new church with me one sunday (after finding one), and then just take it slow and slowly expose her to mainstream Christianity.

Thoughts?

12-28-2016 07:37 PM

Ohio

Re: My situation with the LC

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Witness Lee was against elders interfering in marriages so what you describe must be bad elders.

Apparently Witness Lee also taught that Christians should not sue other Christians.

12-28-2016 07:36 PM

Ohio

Re: My situation with the LC

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Ohio, Witness Lee said elders should not control or interfere in marriages. To my knowledge this does not happen in the local churches. Of course she belongs to God and so she must be part of the church because the church belongs to God.

Baptist church belongs to God also.

Elders do what Lee does, not what he taught. The Lord Jesus made a similar comment about the Pharisees.

12-28-2016 06:29 PM

Drake

Re: My situation with the LC

Quote:

Originally Posted by been there done that

the last couple of posters were obviously never in the lc during the 70s or even 80s, at least not in LA. Going back to Elden hall days and on through the 80s most of the marriages in the lc were arranged marriages of one sort or the other. As this forum has born out, many of these marriages fell apart because the only thing they had in common was the messages of Witness Lee and the strange practices such as calling on the Lord and pray reading. When push came to shove neither party had a real relationship with the Lord but only with the local churches of Witness Lee.

I personally witnessed many of these "arranged" marriages. More than one of them happened BEFORE either boy or girl really knew much about the other person. There is no doubt this weird practice game straight from the Chinese tradition which came from Witness Lee. Untold suffering and divorces came from these arranged marriages. Nobody hardly hears about these sufferings or divorces because of the secret nature of the local churches.

True that there was a flurry that occurred of quick introductions and then vows in the early days in Elden Hall.. However, it did not become and is not a practice in the local churches. If that week true in this situation we are discussing then the sister would not have ever shown interest in the brother who opened this thread or else she would gave hid it from everyone.

Furthermore, some couples are still together from those times and someone once said that those marriages suffered no more than others. Of course there is anecdotal evidence to support either case.

Still, I believe love to be very important but that is just me. But for the sake of the brother let's continue to provide him with sound advice.

Drake

12-28-2016 05:43 PM

been there done that

Re: My situation with the LC

12-28-2016 05:08 PM

Drake

Re: My situation with the LC

I have witnessed and became aware of overreach by elders in some situations concerning marriage counseling. Howver, it would be wrong to characterize it as systemic or a policy or a practice of some sort. I never knew of elders engaging in matchmaking though some sisters were pretty quick on the draw.

That does mean that elders should use hands off as an excuse to not shepherd the flock. A person may have aspirations toward the Lord and the responsible ones should advise and counsel that one, their parents, the serving ones, etc.and sometimes intervention is required if morality is compromised. Paul taught this.

Even in this thread advice has been offered. That is not meddling. Seeing the situation on the ground gives a better perspective so we cannot judge those shepherding the flock and this sister or this brother.

I would also advise you brother that it is a fool's errand if you think to save this sister from "a cult". That is a nonstarter in so many ways.

Drake

12-28-2016 04:23 PM

Evangelical

Re: My situation with the LC

Have you pointed these elders to Witness Lee's books about this and if so what was their response?

12-28-2016 02:47 PM

Freedom

Re: My situation with the LC

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Ohio, Witness Lee said elders should not control or interfere in marriages. To my knowledge this does not happen in the local churches.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Witness Lee was against elders interfering in marriages so what you describe must be bad elders.

For the record, in the LC I was a part of, there was a couple who got married, but before the marriage happened, an elder tried to put it to a stop so he could match the brother up with a different sister. As far as I'm concerned such behavior on the part of the elder was completely unacceptable, and any group who doesn't want to be called a cult shouldn't engage in that kind of behavior. Ironically enough, this is not the only case of such meddling/interference that I am aware of. And there are plenty of cases I know of where a significant amount of guidance for a relationship/marriage was through 'fellowship' from the elders.

When I attended young people's conferences and throughout my college years, it was constantly reiterated to us that all relationships should happen through 'fellowship' with the elders. This is not fellowship that just came at a local level. It was widespread throughout the Southern California region that I'm from. Additionally, I received one-on-one 'fellowship' more than once about not engaging in any relationship without prior approval of the elders, and one of these occasions was in a LC 500 miles removed from the locality that I was from. So, as much as you or anyone else wants to deny it, there is a systemic problem that exists in the LC.

If you wish to claim ignorance to the problem, then I will assume you are telling the truth, however, when faced with the facts, why wouldn’t there be any desire or concern about a change being needed? All I have seen coming from the LC direction are attempts to rationalize or downplay the problem. At the very least, the fact that multiple people from multiple locations have relayed similar experiences of inappropriate interference and meddling, that would be indicative of the systemic problem that I have referenced. And we are even told that WL spoke against this. Why then is it the predominant culture in the LC? Why does the FTTA forbid relationships? Why do the elders so freely offer ‘fellowship’ about relationships when approached? All the evidence points in a certain direction, and is indicative of this being a culture/ideology that the LC wishes to embrace. Sorry to be so frank, but when this is the culture/environment you were born and raised in, it provoke a strong reaction when there are claims made that no such problem exists in the LC.

12-28-2016 02:07 PM

Evangelical

Re: My situation with the LC

Witness Lee was against elders interfering in marriages so what you describe must be bad elders.

12-28-2016 02:05 PM

Evangelical

Re: My situation with the LC

Quote:

Originally Posted by OGOP

What I noticed immediately about the LC was that the non LC member HAD to "convert" and join the church, or the relationship wouldn't happen. The LC member never leaves.
That was a red flag again for me. Gave a very cultish vibe.

OGOP

That does not happen in the local churches. There are no forced conversions of a non-LC person to the LC. Many brothers and sisters in the church are married to people who attend a denomination or are not attending church at all.

12-28-2016 02:00 PM

Evangelical

Re: My situation with the LC

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Evangelical, if LC dating ideas and marriage plans for young people were so successful, then we should see the fruit. Unfortunately, I have seen far too many failures. Even in other cultures, like India, where arranged marriages are the accepted norm, it is the parents who do the arranging, not the church elders or serving ones. There are far too many church elders who place the short-term needs of their church ahead of the long-term needs of young people. It was my experience in the LC that wise and mature counselors were usually no where to be found.

Some of your comments are quite troublesome. You said, "There's no problem if two people want to get married within a week and don't know each other." Are you serious? If they don't know each other, why would anyone want to marry and invest their life with a stranger? Your comment, "She is not yours," actually implies to me that you consider this young lady to be "church property" with little concern for her as a person.

The practice of a Christian courtship is far healthier for young people today. Neither the extremes of loveless arrangements nor "try before you buy" are the only options.

12-28-2016 11:01 AM

OGOP

Re: My situation with the LC

**reposting because I think the last one didn't post***

Thank you everybody for the replies, its gotten way more attention than I thought it would. More importantly, thank you for the prayers and offers of counsel.

Quote:

aron: Conversely, we see "And Jesus could do nothing because of their unbelief" (Matt 13:58; Mark 6:5). With anxiety, fear, resentment, you can block God's will from being accomplished. So be at peace. Pray, but pray with rejoicing. Petition, but petition with thanksgiving. Repent, but repent with gratitude. God will move. God loves to move. Let Him surprise you! It all starts with a rejoicing heart.

thank you for the verses. To be honest its really hard to turn to God in a situation like this. Like it just feels weird asking Him for guidance about leaving the only church I've ever known. I agree though, I need to overcome it and turn to God.

Quote:

DistantStar: "I do not wish to make light out of you situation, but I can't help but notice your choice of words for the LC."

Haha no worries, that wording was intentionally chosen to poke a little fun.

Quote:

Nell: On the other hand, the backlash you experienced is only the beginning. It won't get any better than it is now. Can you imagine starting your married life together without telling her the truth about how you feel about the LC? If you can't have that conversation now, when can you? Two or three years later there may be children involved! She will find out how you feel and blame you for deceiving her.

Marriage plans are definitely on hold from my perspective until we can deal with the LC. I'm really worried, she is the nicest most caring person I've ever met and then its like when the subject of the "church life" comes up she's a different person. Its really scary.

12-28-2016 10:59 AM

OGOP

Re: My situation with the LC

Quote:

What you are experiencing has happened many times. An LCM young person meets someone they like outside the LCM and seeks to get them to join. Make no mistake, if she is typical she is counting on you joining her group. She is much less open to following you to another more mainstream group.

This was something I noticed early on. Inter-faith marriages are something that, although not exactly common, they do happen. Inter-denomination marriages are even more common.

For example: Lets say you have a baptist guy, and a catholic girl. Usually you see either the guy or the girl, change denominations and its no big deal. I've even seen some couples where they alternate each week where they go. There might be some disgruntled family members but 95% of the time, dating somebody of a different denomination is completely fine and normal.

What I noticed immediately about the LC was that the non LC member HAD to "convert" and join the church, or the relationship wouldn't happen. The LC member never leaves.
That was a red flag again for me. Gave a very cultish vibe.

OGOP

12-28-2016 10:48 AM

OGOP

Re: My situation with the LC

Thank you everybody for the replies, its gotten way more attention than I thought it would. More importantly, thank you for the prayers and offers of counsel.

Quote:

DistantStar: "I do not wish to make light out of you situation, but I can't help but notice your choice of words for the LC."

Haha no worries, that wording was intentionally chosen to poke a little fun.

Quote:

12-28-2016 09:30 AM

Freedom

Re: My situation with the LC

I think others have provided good suggestions. Ultimately, your instincts have told you something is wrong with the LC, and it's better to have realized that sooner than later. I grew up in the LC, so I viewed a lot of the abnormalities as being completely 'normal'. Even when I began to question things, I still tended to dismiss inappropriate behavior as being ‘misguided’ or as still being done with “good intentions.” And that is exactly what I think the danger is in accepting the LC environment and trying to make it work. When you know something is wrong, you either have to act upon that instinct or dismiss it. The latter might work temporarily, but as others have said, what about 10 or 20 years from now?

In particular, I have seen a lot of meddling when it comes to relationships and dating. When I lived in a "brothers house," we were all made to sign forms that indicated we would not interact or involve ourselves in relationships with the opposite sex. I did so without a second thought and at the time, I thought this to be completely normal to restrict oneself like that. Obviously, I was completely naïve, and when you take a close look at what’s really happening, it seems young people are being brought under a certain kind of ideology, completely oblivious to the fact that what is being suggested is completely abnormal.

For the record, don’t accept the argument that somehow all the ‘chaos’ surrounding us when it comes to dating, relationships, etc., somehow validates or necessitates the LC ideology. That is what they will try to tell you. Simply put, adults have the right to make whatever decisions they want, and while such freedom in decisions making comes with an inherent risk, no one has the right to tell anyone else what to do. Part of being an adult is making decisions and living with them.

More than once, I saw LC elders attempt to arrange or destroy relationships as they saw fit. There is also an unspoken ‘rule’ in the LC that anyone seeking to involve themselves in a relationship should seek ‘fellowship’ with the elders before initiating anything. Those types of things, in particular, are the type of behavior that could easily be labeled as cult-like. I’ve seen such things taken to an extreme, and while I by no means attempt to make a blanket statement that applies to all of the LC, I find it ironic that given the LC is so worried about the cult label, that they wouldn’t distance themselves from practices that can be perceived as questionable. The conclusion I came to is that they have no interest in changing or correcting anything. They just assume that detractors and critics will leave or move on.

12-28-2016 08:50 AM

Cal

Re: My situation with the LC

Good advice, leastofthese.

As people we desire things: security, financial prosperity, relational satisfaction, success for our children, realization of our gifts, etc.

What I've found is as I'm walking with God, if any of these or other legitimate desires turn into something I do not trust God to take care of, then it becomes "lesson time" for me and I begin a wandering in the wilderness where I don't understand what's going on, why things aren't working out or when it will end. This has repeated over and over in my life.

It's God and me walking together. Then a desire or situation comes up. I don't trust God completely for it and try to work it out myself. Next thing I know I'm in the wilderness and wander around until I finally repent, submit and truly turn it over to the Lord.

Some of these experiences last days, some last years. They can overlap. But in a sense they are the sum total of my spiritual life.

God is always there saying "Trust me." I'm usually hesitating and trying to do it my way. He's patient and totally sure of himself. I'm not so sure of him, and wander until I am. That's the lesson. Over and over.

12-28-2016 08:22 AM

leastofthese

Re: My situation with the LC

OGOP-

I think you've received some good advice from each of these posts. Pray, Trust, be at Peace (it will be difficult at times, especially if other dudes are proposing to your girl). I went through a similar situation (in some ways) and also agree that having an honest conversation about where each of you "are at" is a good second step (after prayer) before getting any more serious with the relationship.

I wanted to share my own experience, as I feel God blessed me richly. I'm not any sort of MOTA, just a regular dude. This is not prescriptive, rather only descriptive of my experience:

1. I would read my bible daily - spend time in His Word
2. Pray to God (have conversations with my loving father who knows my heart and cares for me more than I can imagine)
3. Trusted that no matter what happens - His plan for me is better than my plan for myself
4. I wrote some of my prayers in a journal each day - a practice I've done on and off for years. It helps me focus and is also fun to go back and re-read.
5. Tried to focus on my relationship with Christ first (and above) my girlfriend.

The Lord strengthened me and lead me during this time. I felt he actually woke me early in the morning (and alert) with nothing else to do - so I had time to pray and seek his guidance.

I'll be praying for you. Send me a private message if you want to chat on the phone. I know it can be difficult when you don't have other believers that really understand the situation.

-least

12-28-2016 07:42 AM

Cal

Re: My situation with the LC

I agree with Drake. Before marriage is the time to be honest. Tell her your feelings about the whole situation. You don't have to use the word "cult," but you should tell her the LCM is not for you.

When you are driving and you enter an area where the streets get narrower and more potential hazards appear what do you do? You ease on the brakes. You slow down. You take things more carefully. That's what you should do now.

I don't want to make light of "young love," but I think age 21 is pretty young to know whether another person is right for you for the rest of your life. Feelings and desires (and perceived physical needs) are very strong at your age. But you haven't finished growing yet. You are not quite the final person you will be. Neither is she.

What you are experiencing has happened many times. An LCM young person meets someone they like outside the LCM and seeks to get them to join. Make no mistake, if she is typical she is counting on you joining her group. She is much less open to following you to another more mainstream group.

I have been at the marrying age in the LCM myself, and you have to understand how desperate these kids are to find a partner, and how their options are limited. They don't intend to hurt anyone, they are just trying to find relational happiness in a system that is not built for such a thing.

You don't need to rush. You have your whole life ahead of you. But you must understand this -- if you are not 100% for this group you should not consider marrying this girl until she leaves the group. You have to be on the same page with your life plans or your marriage will not work. It's hard enough to get along with someone else when your plans are congruous. Basic disagreement on life direction will just lead to unhappiness and probably divorce.

Pray and trust. Try to be at peace. Things will work out as they should if you do this.

12-28-2016 06:57 AM

Drake

Re: My situation with the LC

I agree with Nell on many points.

I add this also. Do not enter into one of the most important decisions of your life under false pretenses. It will end badly for you both.

Sometimes love means letting go. When you look back on the course of your life you will see more clearly the paths the Lord set before you. Looking forward, it is more difficult if not impossible to know what to do next. Therefore, let the Lord use time to take care of you. Don't rush, it may take years for you both to be clear. A year and a half is but a moment. Therefore, your best course at this point is to pray, let her know how you feel, avoid pretending, and speak your convictions.. Then things will unfold and at some point in your life looking back you will see the Lord's care for you in this situation. She will too.

Drake

12-28-2016 06:25 AM

Nell

Re: My situation with the LC

Quote:

Originally Posted by OGOP

....When I mentioned to my girlfriend just a few days ago that I was going to research the history of the denomination, I got quite the backlash. That I shouldn't research anything because I would be "poisoned" and "confused" by what I would see.

I need advice.
I obviously can't just go to my girlfriend, who has known only the church life nothing else, and tell her she's in church that is borderline cult. I don't want to raise my kids in an environment like that. I don't know what to do.

OGOP,

On the other hand, the backlash you experienced is only the beginning. It won't get any better than it is now. Can you imagine starting your married life together without telling her the truth about how you feel about the LC? If you can't have that conversation now, when can you? Two or three years later there may be children involved! She will find out how you feel and blame you for deceiving her.

The feelings you share now may vanish like the dew in the morning sun. Married life is hard enough without the forces of the LC interfering, and this interference will never stop. They have a teaching that "if you take care of the church, God will take care of your family." This is a lie, of course, but one that is already ingrained. She has already chosen the church and you will always be second. You will spend the rest of your life fighting these teachings.

Read aron's post again. He's right. My point is to let you know what you're up against and if your relationship can't survive the truth, you have a decision to make.

Get professional counseling.

Blessings to you OGOP.

Nell

12-28-2016 05:31 AM

DistantStar

Re: My situation with the LC

Quote:

Originally Posted by OGOP

When I moved away to college I was far too busy with school and extracurricular activities to find a denomination as a freshman.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OGOP

When I mentioned to my girlfriend just a few days ago that I was going to research the history of the denomination, I got quite the backlash.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OGOP

One thing I know is, this is not the denomination for me or my future family.

I do not wish to make light out of you situation, but I can't help but notice your choice of words for the LC.

On a more serious note, I am also in college and although I am not in love with her, it bothers me how a female friend of mine is getting more involved with this... denomination.
The only advice I can offer is to be patient. Don't overdue it. Rather share your concerns when you really have to. I'm pretty sure that the fact that you no longer like the LC is enough to make your love doubt the LC herself, even if she does not show it. I'm no prophet, but I believe if you are patient, there will come a time when something will disturb her about the LC. Then, instead of dismissing it, she will be more open minded to your criticism.

I met a very good friend of mine at one of the lunches our Christians on Campus had. When we started to meet up a few months afterwards, I noticed that he was not going to CoC anymore. He then told me about how they are too "religious", especially in regards to his choice of music. At the time I thought his reasons to be a bit underwhelming. Yet instead of pestering me about leaving them - which might have strengthened my resolve to stay, he quietly and loyally stuck by my side. Eventually when I started to have doubts it was easier to leave them as he was there to support me.

12-28-2016 03:52 AM

Ohio

Re: My situation with the LC

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I don't see why not holding hands is a problem. Many do not hold hands in church in many denominations. Hand holding is a mark of commitment and implies sexual thoughts particularly during the dating stage of a relationship. You are in church, if you want to hold hands then go to a park or something.

I don't see a problem if someone else wants to propose to your girlfriend. She is not yours, she is still single until you get married. There's nothing stopping you proposing to her yourself. There's no problem if two people want to get married within a week and don't know each other. Marriage between people relatively unknown to each other is an ancient thing. Boyfriends/girlfriends for 3-5 years and then marriage after you have "tried before you buyed" is a modern invention. Today's way of dating is a worldly concept. There are books written about that.

12-28-2016 02:37 AM

aron

Re: My situation with the LC

Young people need guidance, encouragement, structure. But there is a line where it becomes manipulation, pressure, and control. The "college work" in the LC is setting these young people up for a lifetime of being program robots.

Now, in a situation like this, you apparently have irresistible force (love) meeting immovable object (the LC)... what to do?

There is One with all power, that is God. Don't worry about LC teachings, elders, 'serving ones', even parents. Don't try to seize power yourself. Just believe, pray, trust. Anything can happen. Just believe.

Jesus taught, "Do not let your hearts be troubled. Believe into God; believe also into Me". If your girlfriend sees that your heart is not troubled this will be a great help to her. And when two people are in agreement, you know the rest: what is bound on earth shall be bound in heaven, and what is loosed on earth will be loosed in heaven. Temporal things will yield to eternal things, and will align.

Conversely, we see "And Jesus could do nothing because of their unbelief" (Matt 13:58; Mark 6:5). With anxiety, fear, resentment, you can block God's will from being accomplished. So be at peace. Pray, but pray with rejoicing. Petition, but petition with thanksgiving. Repent, but repent with gratitude. God will move. God loves to move. Let Him surprise you! It all starts with a rejoicing heart.

12-27-2016 08:51 PM

OGOP

Re: My situation with the LC

Evangelical, I think you missed the overall point of my post, but Ill address what you're saying.

My main problem with the holding hands was how the LC handled it. Sending elder brothers to sit down in an interrogation style and question her. We will agree to disagree that holding hands of your girlfriend is "implying sexual thoughts".

If you want to believe in arranged marriages than okay, I don't. All I ask is that for those who choose to court and date, that you don't try to intervene against the wishes of the two dating and arrange a marriage despite the two people being in a committed relationship.

These two situations are mere drops in the bucket of the things Ive seen going on in the LC that I am upset with.
Bottom line is I would be happier elsewhere and feel my pursuit of christ would be much less impeded. I don't want a future in the LC.

12-27-2016 08:23 PM

Evangelical

Re: My situation with the LC

12-27-2016 07:07 PM

OGOP

My situation with the Local Church

Hey everybody, I've been reading over old threads here for the past couple days.
Everything I've been experiencing for the past year and a half in the Local Church and 'Christians on Campus' is finally starting to make sense. I feel like I could write a book, but I will try to be brief about my experience.

Prior to my involvement with the LC I didn't attend any church at all. I still identified as Christian and was a believer in Jesus Christ, but I wasn't raised going to church in my family. When I moved away to college I was far too busy with school and extracurricular activities to find a denomination as a freshman. So although I wanted to get involved with a church and make faith a bigger aspect of my life, I remained "church-less".

Sophomore year, I met a girl. I knew she was religious and involved with some sort of church, but I wasn't curious enough to delve into the details right away. After the first few months of dating, she invited me to the Christians on Campus bible study. I went, and to be honest nothing seemed out of the ordinary. It was my first bible study ever so I wouldn't have really known if it was normal or not to be honest, but I saw no red flags initially.

When I started joining her at the home meetings, was when I started feeling uncomfortable. Three main things that I noticed right away:

1) The way the groups prayed.
I know that may sound wrong, but I've seen similar opinions expressed on this site in other threads so I'm sure you all know what I mean by this. The shouting of "OOOhhh LOOOOOOrd JEEEEsUUUs!" along with other things they would just shout made me feel uncomfortable.

2) The fact that at some meetings we wouldn't even read the bible and just read and analyze Morning Revival.
It didn't make sense to me that the group that kept professing about how strictly they followed the word of God, was reading these books at the meetings in place of The Bible.

3) Talk of the Full Time Training.
This screamed "cult" to me right away. You're going to spend two years of your life isolated from family, friends, the opposite sex, wearing uniforms, no technology, etc. I had never heard of anything like this before, and the fact that all of the college aged kids were being expected to attend something so extreme seemed so crazy to me.

Things started really getting out of control after the first few months.

As MANY people have experienced and shared on here, dating in the "church life" is not something ordinary by any means.
Dating in the LC as an outsider, is even more strict. I would hear everything people would say about me and our relationship, via my girlfriend. How the "elders" didn't approve.
There was even one situation where a brother was planning propose to my girlfriend. He had reached out to the older brothers and was in the process of contacting her parents for their approval to marry my girlfriend.
As you can imagine I was extremely angered by the whole handling of the situation. For somebody who had only been in the "church life" for a few months, I was dumbfounded that something like this was even allowed to happen.

The brother barely even knew my girlfriend, but it was completely acceptable for them to get married?? They would marry off two strangers simply to avoid pre-marital sex? My role as the boyfriend meant nothing to the elders. I was livid.

This was the situation that made me become extremely distrustful of the LCM. I had felt uncomfortable with some of their biblical interpretations and rituals before this happened. However after this, and several other problems due to dating in the church life, I started to secretly question the practices of the LC.

Another example: At one point my girlfriend was interrogated by some of the elder brothers when people started complaining at the sight of us holding hands. Completely inappropriate in my mind.

One more: I was even interrogated by elders who were friends of my girlfriends family, to make sure I was a genuine member of the LCM. It was one of the most uncomfortable moments of my life. Being forced to read certain verses, pray certain prayers, etc.

However, like I said, I could go on and on but thats not the purpose of this thread.

I have fallen head over heels for my girlfriend and I want to spend the rest of my life with her. We are 21 years old now, and we both want to get married. She is my true love, and I love everything about her.
Despite the multiple problems I have faced with dating within the church life, I have continued attending the meetings and even the "Lords day" service and table. After a year and a half, the church life is my entire social life. All of our friends are from the meetings. I have drifted apart from my friends I had prior to getting involved with the LC.

As recently as a few days ago, I was completely content with remaining involved in the LCM and even raising our family in the church life. A couple days ago I stumbled upon the full time training website, which led me to researching about its history, and finding out about Witness Lee and Watchman Nee. I found out about all the accusations of it being a cult. I have been completely awoken to everything, and all the little things that didn't make sense I completely understand now.

When I mentioned to my girlfriend just a few days ago that I was going to research the history of the denomination, I got quite the backlash. That I shouldn't research anything because I would be "poisoned" and "confused" by what I would see.

I need advice.
I obviously can't just go to my girlfriend, who has known only the church life nothing else, and tell her she's in church that is borderline cult. I don't want to raise my kids in an environment like that. I don't know what to do.

Thank you all for taking the time to read my story and for any responses you may have for me. I have a lot more stories I might share later, about some experiences at some of the "college conferences" and some other run ins with the elders, but for now I think Ive made my point.

I have come to see the light, no pun intended, that the Local Church is not the church for me, and I want absolutely nothing to do with it. Yes I see some of the positives it has and it has really taught me a lot about Christ and for that I am thankful. One thing I know is, this is not the denomination for me or my future family.

God Bless.