Originally Posted by Terry

I'm sure many of us felt it at one time or another. The LSM system does not embrace diverse thoughts or opinions. If they say just look at the emperor's new clothes, the opinion they want if for you to marvel and express how marvelous it is. If you are I think otherwise, the common thought is how come no one else sees what I see? Then self doubt comes in and the common feeling is something must be wrong with me. It's not the system that's wrong it's I that has the problem for not being unconditionally positive.

Originally Posted by OnHisPath

I don't understand this. If you are already one with them, in Christ, it could never be a divisive question. It feels to me like we believe the same kernel of truth, but you insist on holding onto some extra little matter that makes the truth null and void.

Regardless, I really appreciate you commenting on my thoughts and helping me to engage in this conversation. It's a good exercise.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Right... that's why I don't like asking people which church they attend because that is a divisive question.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Right... that's why I don't like asking people which church they attend because that is a divisive question.

Originally Posted by OnHisPath

Right, I am not one with the Catholic in practice. But I am one with them in Christ. I think that supersedes practice. I believe that spiritual truths are greater than practical reality on this earth. One day, practical reality will perfectly match spiritual truth. For now, we cling to Christ. He is the truth that unites us. "...while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal." 2 Corthinians 4:18 Our practice is what can be seen now, and none of us are perfect or pure in our practice. Praise the Lord, He is the eternal one and our true eternal life.

In the thread, "Do you think Christianity is degraded?" You posted this:
"The genuine church is founded not on doctrine nor practice, but is...founded on the person of Christ Jesus himself." This is the point I'm trying to make. And it's so encouraging for me to see that ultimately we agree! Whoever has Christ is one and is the church. If someone is practicing more perfectly than me, but doesn't truly have Christ, there is nothing for me to be one with. I don't care about being one in practice. I want oneness in Christ because that is what He wants.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

But you are not one with the Catholic in practice, because they would never take communion with you unless it was in the Catholic mass, and they would never take mass in your home for example, without a Catholic priest. So your idea of oneness is a fantasy that cannot be realized in practice unless they remove themselves from the Catholic church, unless they remove themselves from that degraded system. I am not talking about the spiritual truths but the practical reality.

Originally Posted by OnHisPath

Nope, that's not where my logic leads at all. Christ spoke against those who were self-righteous, prideful and trusted in their own works to save themselves while disdaining others. Many Pharisees were in this camp. But it wasn't the name "Pharisee" that was at issue. It was the state of their heart and their unbelief. Remember, some Pharisees did believe.

My logic is illustrated in Luke 18 when the Pharisee and tax collector prayed very different prayers, and only one went home justified.

As Christians, we should all be begging God to be merciful to us, not pointing out the way everyone else sins and the way we believe we are "right" or even "ordained". As a Christian, I am one with the Christ in every other believer, no matter how nominally or incorrectly I believe they practice their faith. I don't have to agree with their practice, or copy their practice, or even participate in their practice at all. But I don't judge where the Lord has led them up to this point in their lives. When it's clear that they indeed have Christ in them, we are one. I am not Catholic and I wouldn't bow to a statue of Mary, but I am one with Catholic believers who trust in Christ.

Why do you think asking what denomination someone attends is divisive? I love finding out where others fellowship and attend church. But I'm coming from a viewpoint that we are already one. Maybe that's the difference.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

By your logic, then Christ as a Jew was being divisive because He constantly spoke against the Pharisees, also Jews. I agree it is division, but it's a right division. An environment that cultivates a divisive spirit is not good, we try not to do that by focussing on Christ. When our focus is taken away from Christ we may see the differences. To be honest I see no difference between myself and another Christian, on a personal level. I/we do not even ask to what denomination a person belongs, as that is also divisive. They are "Christians who attend such and such denomination". But on an organizational/structural level (when I see A Christian bowing before Mary's idol for example), I see a world of difference from which I must separate.

Originally Posted by OnHisPath

I agree with you here. In any group of people, even congregations of believers, you may have a percentage of people with personality/mental health disorders or who participate with false motives. In fact, the one person associated with the LC who has hurt me the most, clearly has some mental health struggles that contributed to a very oppressive dynamic in dealing with other people. However, in experiencing this behavior it helped me to see the thread of dysfunction in the LC system itself, rather than excusing it as one person's poor behavior.

I do not think, if asked directly, Witness Lee would have ever said that those outside of the LC cannot be true Christians (same is true for most LC members). However, the informal speaking, and even testimony during meetings that I witnessed many times, clearly highlighted the dysfunctional group dynamics of a religious system that thrived on an "us against them" mentality. To me, this is true division. Not a sign on the outside of a building. It is the cultural dynamics of the LC that foster a, possibly inadvertant, divisive spirit among some people. We know that God looks at the heart, and "out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks". The divisive speaking against other Christians is a real problem.

Originally Posted by OnHisPath

I do not think, if asked directly, Witness Lee would have ever said that those outside of the LC cannot be true Christians (same is true for most LC members). However, the informal speaking, and even testimony during meetings that I witnessed many times, clearly highlighted the dysfunctional group dynamics of a religious system that thrived on an "us against them" mentality. To me, this is true division. Not a sign on the outside of a building. It is the cultural dynamics of the LC that foster a, possibly inadvertant, divisive spirit among some people. We know that God looks at the heart, and "out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks". The divisive speaking against other Christians is a real problem.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

That's bad..even Lee did not believe that. I always keep in mind that a certain percentage of church members are psychopaths or sociopaths, cult followers, or wolves in sheep's clothing. We've had problems with cults (real cults, that is) before.

Originally Posted by Ohio

This is absolutely pathetic, especially in reference to those martyrs beheaded by terrorists.
How can you talk about LC members in this way?

Originally Posted by Ohio

Who cares about names but you? LSM has a bazilion non-scriptural names and websites, but you can sweep all these under the rug.
These ones in Egypt were beheaded for believing in the Son of God. Our Heavenly Father only sees them as beloved children. A new name is written on their foreheads.
Let's see if your faith is anywhere close to these martyrs. I highly doubt it, since LSM will file a lawsuit if you look at them cross-eyed.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I always keep in mind that a certain percentage of church members are psychopaths or sociopaths, cult followers, or wolves in sheep's clothing. We've had problems with cults (real cults, that is) before.

Originally Posted by OnHisPath

Ohio, the experiences you've shared here have given me evidence to go along with my misgivings about the LC. I saw a lot of ministry serving behavior (at the expense of individuals) displayed, but I initially found this forum after hearing about the rift in the Midwest and taking to google. I remember being so shocked, and also feeling a bit vindicated that all the hypocrisy and oppression I "felt" from the ministry was indeed manifest. Almost as shocking was the way it was kept quiet and hushed in most other parts of the country. Anything to cover the "brothers".
Like you, I have to guard against my natural propensity for judgement and bitterness being turned on members of the LC.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I don't recall the Bible saying that the Bride would be Egyptian Coptics, or anyone other than just Christians.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I don't recall the Bible saying that the Bride would be Egyptian Coptics, or anyone other than just Christians.

Originally Posted by Ohio

When I left the LC about ten years ago, I became keenly aware of how abusive the program and its leaders were towards their members. I saw this on all levels, finally concluding that there were serious systemic issues. This saying kept ringing in my ears, "the program produces bullies out of beloved brothers."
Like you, we are all recovering "judgaholics." Sometimes posting on this forum with current LC members I suffer a relapse.

Originally Posted by HERn

The only "crazy" ones are those who believe the Bride is only composed of the very narrow sect known as the lords recovery.

Originally Posted by OnHisPath

Thankfully, my husband had no interest in remaining in the Recovery and we haven't attended in many years. Besides the extreme judgement and negativity spoken of other Christians, even in the meetings, one of the final straws was witnessing the pray reading of Witness Lee's footnotes (as if they were equal to scripture) in multiple locations/states. I could no longer justify that it was just one extreme, dysfunctional locality, but that there were serious errors and dysfunctions with the system itself. We are involved in a church where we live, but for years it was hard not to judge other Christians based on Recovery standards. We are finally getting past that.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I've been reading for about 8 years and I want to thank you very, very sincerely for the running of and contribution to this website. It helped me to realize that I was not crazy...just perceptive about a dysfunctional group.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Originally Posted by OnHisPath

The original comment on this thread is mine from my email to request membership. I was a bit surprised to see it had been posted here...but after being a long time reader I suppose it was what I needed to push me onto the forum.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

It helped me to realize that I was not crazy...just perceptive about a dysfunctional group.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I've been reading for about 8 years and I want to thank you very, very sincerely for the running of and contribution to this website. It helped me to realize that I was not crazy...just perceptive about a dysfunctional group.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Yours is why I post. Helping others is a way to be helped myself. . .

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I've been reading for about 8 years and I want to thank you very, very sincerely for the running of and contribution to this website. It helped me to realize that I was not crazy...just perceptive about a dysfunctional group.