Local Church Discussions - Reply to Topic

Additional Options
Miscellaneous Options Automatically parse links in text

10-26-2018 05:34 PM

Ohio

Re: Partial Rapture

Quote:

Originally Posted by OBW

Whole lot of interesting stuff here. But it is even more interesting that the whole idea of a rapture (as taught in dispensational theology) has only been around for 200 years.

I'm not buying this.

Believers have been seeking His return since the moment He left. "Behold, I come quickly."

Just because there have been times when an excitement has surrounded a certain truth, it does not mean that prior to this time it was totally unknown.

This is the kind of church history we got from Lee. Supposedly Martin Luther was the first "justified by faith" Christian ever.

10-26-2018 04:52 PM

countmeworthy

Re: Partial Rapture

Quote:

Originally Posted by OBW

Whole lot of interesting stuff here. But it is even more interesting that the whole idea of a rapture (as taught in dispensational theology) has only been around for 200 years.

I fear that we ultimately waste too much time trying to pin down details and minutia from types, figures, and metaphors. There is too much clearly in the scripture (including in the NT) that is not about the rapture or the end times that is mostly ignored.

Glad you found a "whole lot of interesting stuff here". That said, you 'fear'?? Why? While we are to grow in Christ, to edify and build up His body, to be witnesses and share the gospel to unbelievers, we are instructed to look up.

Pick and choose what we want to get out of the bible are we??

The Jews who for ions were looking for their Messiah missed Him or rejected HIM when He came. I guess they could not accept their KING being born in a lowly manger.

NOT saying if you or believers do not want to believe the rapture is at hand 'you will be left behind'. NOT SAYING THAT AT ALL! Still I believe it pleases the Bridegroom to be looking and waiting for Him.

For me and a whole lot of people, the Holy Spirit put it in our hearts to 'look up for your redemption draws nigh'. I was looking for Jesus to return back in the LC days!

And here I am.. still on earth..waiting..waiting and waiting some more.

I remember going through a study in Daniel a few years back and discussing Daniel 12: 9-10 Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

Surely in the last 200 yrs or so, more and more prophesy has been revealed to the church by the Holy Spirit. Not that everyone has got it 'right'.

Quote:

But we would rather pine about the "by and by" at the expense of the "here and now."

I totally but respectfully disagree with this comment here. This thread was created for this topic and this topic was discussed by Nee and Lee although quite convoluted imho. And this topic is BIBLICAL. So if you or other people don't like this thread, don't come here. Simple as that!

There are many threads on this forum I bypass because they do not interest me. They do not interest me because I was not in the LC that long of a time nor did I experience horrific pain at the words of elders or 'leading ones'.

On that note:
Peace be unto you and the forum from God above.

10-26-2018 11:35 AM

OBW

Re: Partial Rapture

Whole lot of interesting stuff here. But it is even more interesting that the whole idea of a rapture (as taught in dispensational theology) has only been around for 200 years.

I fear that we ultimately waste too much time trying to pin down details and minutia from types, figures, and metaphors. There is too much clearly in the scripture (including in the NT) that is not about the rapture or the end times that is mostly ignored.

But we would rather pine about the "by and by" at the expense of the "here and now."

10-22-2018 03:26 PM

countmeworthy

Re: Partial Rapture

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Regarding whether someone is saved . . . if by "saved" I take that to mean they have been reborn with the divine life coming into them as a seed and taking root.

If they are reborn with this life, then they can't be "unborn," can they?

If they are truly born again, they can't be 'unborn' or lose their salvation. True. I think they can lose their rewards because Revelation 2 and 3 cautions the church not to lose their crowns. There are rebukes and compliments.

But there are a lot of Christians who call themselves Christians and were never/are not born again. I recently met a really neat, intelligent God loving guy who visited my bible study group because he could play or toot the shofar really, really well. He used to go the church, the bible study leaders go to.. In fact he was raised in the church. He also was a member of the orchestra at John Hagee's church. He was a very good trumpet player which is why he could toot the shofar awesomely. He went to Israel with Hagee and his group a few times and loved it so much, he converted to JUDAISM! He denies Jesus is the Messiah but is a very good 'Jew'. Loves the Jewish religion and studies the OT with his rabbi.

He has remained friends with the people of his former 'church'. So was he ever saved? My friends who invited him say he went through the motions but never experienced true salvation. Who knows but GOD.

Quote:

Hey, I managed to do some of my worst things after receiving the new life! It was in there, but deeply suppressed - even to the point I wasn't aware of it at all. But that is the power of the indestructible resurrection life! It will eventually even crack the hard concrete to spring up.

Me too! I truly experienced the scripture God will never leave you or forsake you. I am also convinced we cannot lose our salvation if we indeed are truly washed in Blood of Jesus and born again. He drew me back to Himself.

Quote:

So we might even find, in that day, that certain ones we thought could never have been Christians (i.e., truly born again) actually had Christ's life buried deep within them. Could it be possible that Hitler or Stalin or Machiavelli received Christ at an early age and then they suppressed that life so much the world could never believe it was there? Yes, I doubt it too, but we may be surprised in that day to see some pretty nefarious individuals being severely rebuked as unfaithful and unprofitable servants of Christ. (for them, maybe it would be 1000 years in outer darkness - who knows!?)

We never know who truly repented on their death bed do we?

Quote:

And that is the purpose of the Bema - to give deserved rewards for what we've done (works the Father prepared for us) with this grace and divine life in us. Some have done much in being faithful (in a few things to further the kingdom) and some not so much. So your analogy of the school might be good - as you graduate to the next grade level, you go to a different room. (however, it seems the level is dependent upon what we do in this life, not the next)

Exactly!! It's not a punishment. God knows each and everyone of us. He is compassionate, merciful and understanding.

Quote:

BTW - The world translated in the KJV as"mansions" is probably better rendered "abode" or "room" or "dwelling place." Therefore, "In My Father's house are many rooms (or abodes)" is the way most translations have it.

So what is the difference between a mansion, a room or abode? It seems people will go into separate compartments. I have never quite understood that passage.

Quote:

According to our human view it does seem like Christ's body is divided. But recently a brother said something like this to me, "Look, you are going on what you see. Do you think that God doesn't have control of this apparent mess called the Church? It's not like when Christ returns then all of a sudden His body parts miraculously fly together as one body. His body IS one, but the enemy blinds us to seeing that. We need to take it in faith and not believe the lie." Pretty impossible in ourselves - to be sure!

God surely is in control. The church in God's Eyes may not be divided but just looking at the mess Lee created in the LC and LSM, it sure looks like a divisive bunch! To not want to fellowship because people have left the LC surely has brought about division but it has been a historical problem throughout church history. Even the Catholic church excommunicated people.

Just an observation on my part..not hung up on who's who in the Kingdom of God.

10-22-2018 11:11 AM

Sons to Glory!

Re: Partial Rapture

Quote:

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Very, very good paper!!!!

I hope you have made a few printouts and keep them around the house. Someone may find them at some point and will benefit greatly from your writings.

I don't know if Lee or the LSM has ever explained the difference between the Bema seat judgement and the Great White throne judgement.

I got to thinking, maybe the reason Jesus said in His Father's house are many mansions has to do with rewards for the believers. I don't believe God will give a 'bigger mansion' to someone and a 'smaller one' to someone else.

I think the mansions are like schools. THAT IS MY OPINION fyi. Example, a child in first grade cannot do the work of a high school student. So if a believer is in grade school when he/she dies or is caught up, perhaps their mansion will be that of their level of spiritual growth. That does not mean they will stay there for all eternity. I believe we will all continue growing in Christ beyond this earthly life. That's a topic for another thread.

I also wonder if those 'Christians' who think they have license to sin are actually saved. If they have no conviction and no transformation, are they truly saved??? oh how we need discernment and Wisdom to edify, build up and encourage the body of Christ especially the young believers.

We need God's Word, the Holy Spirit and the Cleansing Blood of the Lamb to be the Light in this world which needs HIM desperately. It is a pity the body of Christ is so divided. Still God's perfect WILL, will not fail!

Great discussion. Thank You SOG and those who participated in the discussion. To those who read this thread, hope it helped and clarified questions.

Glad you enjoyed it! Yes, many copies have been distributed here in Scottsdale, and also via emails, etc. The feedback has all been good, with some saying it has freed them from certain erroneous and burdensome teachings regarding the Bema that they've been dealing with for decades. As said, the light was given to me through another brother, and I just wrote it down (it really just flowed out).

Regarding whether someone is saved . . . if by "saved" I take that to mean they have been reborn with the divine life coming into them as a seed and taking root. If they are reborn with this life, then they can't be "unborn," can they? Hey, I managed to do some of my worst things after receiving the new life! It was in there, but deeply suppressed - even to the point I wasn't aware of it at all. But that is the power of the indestructible resurrection life! It will eventually even crack the hard concrete to spring up.

So we might even find, in that day, that certain ones we thought could never have been Christians (i.e., truly born again) actually had Christ's life buried deep within them. Could it be possible that Hitler or Stalin or Machiavelli received Christ at an early age and then they suppressed that life so much the world could never believe it was there? Yes, I doubt it too, but we may be surprised in that day to see some pretty nefarious individuals being severely rebuked as unfaithful and unprofitable servants of Christ. (for them, maybe it would be 1000 years in outer darkness - who knows!?)

And that is the purpose of the Bema - to give deserved rewards for what we've done (works the Father prepared for us) with this grace and divine life in us. Some have done much in being faithful (in a few things to further the kingdom) and some not so much. So your analogy of the school might be good - as you graduate to the next grade level, you go to a different room. (however, it seems the level is dependent upon what we do in this life, not the next)

BTW - The world translated in the KJV as"mansions" is probably better rendered "abode" or "room" or "dwelling place." Therefore, "In My Father's house are many rooms (or abodes)" is the way most translations have it.

According to our human view it does seem like Christ's body is divided. But recently a brother said something like this to me, "Look, you are going on what you see. Do you think that God doesn't have control of this apparent mess called the Church? It's not like when Christ returns then all of a sudden His body parts miraculously fly together as one body. His body IS one, but the enemy blinds us to seeing that. We need to take it in faith and not believe the lie." Pretty impossible in ourselves - to be sure!

10-22-2018 09:50 AM

countmeworthy

Re: Partial Rapture

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

So I'm not real big on quoting Lee things either, unless there really seems to be something key in it. The film in the camera analogy is one.

Great story regarding the bread picture --- It is amazing how God uses everything to speak to us!

So here's a link to the latest (and hopefully final) iteration of the recent paper I wrote on the Bema, called "Faithful in a Few Things." Attachment 217 A number of ones said it was helpful to them, to clear up some of the burdensome misconceptions they got from LC teachings regarding the Bema Seat. (and a number of Scottsdale brothers provided input as well as editing) I saw what I wrote in the paper during fellowship over dinner with a few brothers. One brother shared how the Lord told him he would hear, "Well done good and faithful servant" from the Lord. But then he also saw how it was him being "faithful in a few things" that would prompt the Lord to say that to him. I really got some light at him sharing this, and many verses started flowing in me. Please let me know your thoughts after reading.

10-22-2018 09:13 AM

countmeworthy

Re: Partial Rapture

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

And then, since all things are possible with God, there's always the possibly that catching-aways like Enoch and Elijah can happen.

Yes.. and If Elijah, Elisha and the prophets knew Elijah was going to be taken up, I believe the Holy Spirit will let us know when we are going to be caught up. WAIT FOR IT.

10-22-2018 09:11 AM

countmeworthy

Re: Partial Rapture

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Because they don't follow the instructions of 2 Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Quote:

I have to admit I'm not an overly diligent student of the word,

Neither am I but I am trying.

I know you are too.

Quote:

Am I wrong on any of these observations?

Nope

10-20-2018 01:28 PM

Sons to Glory!

Re: Partial Rapture

So why is it that most every preacher of the Word I hear on radio or TV:

1. Has little to no mention of accountability and rewards for works?

2. Says all Christians are taken up at the same time?

3. Says we're all going to live forever in heaven?

I have to admit I'm not an overly diligent student of the word, but I pretty clearly see: mention of #1 all over the place; a number of places different rapture times are presented (#2); and no where does it say #3!

Am I wrong on any of these observations?

10-19-2018 08:37 PM

Ohio

Re: Partial Rapture

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Ha - I understand! I too was at that training. But WL certainly wasn't the first to think generally along those lines, as the Nee referenced article starting this thread points out. That training was how I was introduced to the concept.

So far, I have no light that tells me anything different than multiple raptures. As is being discussed in this thread, there are certainly many places in the Bible that appear to talk about catching-aways at different times and differing circumstances.

I was there too, both summer and winter trainings on Revelations. Some things were good, but there was also lots of anti-Catholic hatred ministered.

Lee stole much of his teaching from the Exclusive Brethren, Panton, and Govett.

He said that he was "standing on their shoulders," but if someone took Lee's teachings and put them in books, LSM would sue them.

After reading several Wikipedia entries on the above, I noticed that LSM has been fairly active with the editing of these sites.

10-19-2018 07:19 PM

awareness

Re: Partial Rapture

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

there are certainly many places in the Bible that appear to talk about catching-aways at different times and differing circumstances.

And then, since all things are possible with God, there's always the possibly that catching-aways like Enoch and Elijah can happen.

10-19-2018 06:53 PM

Sons to Glory!

Re: Partial Rapture

Quote:

Originally Posted by HBJ

I was in the Revelation training in December of 1976 and the partial rapture was discussed. The rapture is a harvest and according to Lee, not all grain matures at the same time. You have the firstfruits, general harvest, and gleanings. Mature Christians will go in the first rapture as the firstfruits. Of course the LC is the best place to grow into a mature Christian according to Lee,

although it would be possible elsewhere. Others Christians would have to go through a part of the tribulation, and would go in the general harvest, the 2nd rapture. The least mature would be the gleanings, and not mature until they went through the whole tribulation and Jesus returns. However anyone still not mature would go into outer darkness to mature. My note: Protestant purgatory?!

I can't give you references or notes. I threw away any book s I had that related to the LC, so when I die someone can't find it, read it and be lead astray!

10-19-2018 06:05 PM

HBJ

Re: Partial Rapture

10-19-2018 08:12 AM

countmeworthy

Re: Partial Rapture

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

So here's a link to the latest (and hopefully final) iteration of the recent paper I wrote on the Bema, called "Faithful in a Few Things." Attachment 217 ......... Please let me know your thoughts after reading.

Will do! THANKS!!

Carol

10-18-2018 11:20 AM

Sons to Glory!

Re: Partial Rapture

Quote:

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Never heard him say this. But I was never a 'Leeite' quoting him. I was in the LC for a few short years. Lee was not really my mentor even though I read the life studies. My local 'pastors'

hee hee (elders is what we called them back then) and the more mature brethren in Christ in my locality were my spiritual mentors. But most of all, I sought the LORD with all my heart first and foremost for spiritual understanding.

OH YES!! I remember 4 months after I came into the LC, I went to a home for dinner. There was a picture of a loaf of bread with the scripture 'I AM THE BREAD OF LIFE. he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

As I am looking at the picture and the scripture, I GOT REVELATION! I GOT IT!! Woo Hoo! I had been eating and drinking the Word of God with the saints and by myself all those months. The Lord was being rooted and grounded in me. Btw, I had no knowledge of the BIBLE before I got saved. That was the first time I can recall the logos became rhema to me. That was 40 yrs ago! The logos has become rhema many, many, many times over since that day. Praise be to the Holy Spirit of God Who reveals JESUS, THE WORD OF GOD to us.

No. Sorry.. I don't always pop in as you can tell. Can you point me to the post # please and thank you. I take, it is in this thread?

10-17-2018 09:52 PM

countmeworthy

Re: Partial Rapture

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

CMW - I enjoyed your two postings. Fresh & frank. And yes, we could ALL be wrong!

Thanks.

Quote:

One example WL gave that sticks with me, and lately others I know have also commented about it. He used to say that studying the scriptures was like putting film in a camera. It was there just waiting for the light to come in.

Never heard him say this. But I was never a 'Leeite' quoting him. I was in the LC for a few short years. Lee was not really my mentor even though I read the life studies. My local 'pastors'

Quote:

So many times this has been my experience. I have the word in me, but it's more logos (static) than rhema (living). Then I get some light and shazzam - it really comes alive! Most Christians have this experience I think.

OH YES!! I remember 4 months after I came into the LC, I went to a home for dinner. There was a picture of a loaf of bread with the scripture 'I AM THE BREAD OF LIFE. he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

As I am looking at the picture and the scripture, I GOT REVELATION! I GOT IT!! Woo Hoo! I had been eating and drinking the Word of God with the saints and by myself all those months. The Lord was being rooted and grounded in me. Btw, I had no knowledge of the BIBLE before I got saved. That was the first time I can recall the logos became rhema to me. That was 40 yrs ago! The logos has become rhema many, many, many times over since that day. Praise be to the Holy Spirit of God Who reveals JESUS, THE WORD OF GOD to us.

Quote:

I must be honest and say that I am still more in the realm of the logos word when it comes to the rapture. It just makes the most sense to me that there is more than one rapture of the ekklesia, when I read about raptures occurring at different times.

Of course! Since we are still here, we can't be completely sure how it is all going to 'pan out'. I too believe there is more than one rapture. There is plenty of evidence based on the various raptures we have seen in the scriptures. GOD IS SOO GOOD!! He wants all His people to be raptured I believe. Not saying all will..

Quote:

Therefore if you ask if I believe in pre-trib, the answer is "yes." If you ask if I believe in post-trib, the answer is also "yes." That's because that's what I read - they are not mutually exclusive.

Exactly!! I too believe there will be a pre trib rapture, a mid trib rapture, and a post trib rapture. I'm banking on going in the first boatload! GOD WILLING.

Quote:

I have received some light regarding the judgement of our works at the Bema Seat of Christ. We will receive different rewards, based upon how faithful we've been in a few things that we've been given

YEP!!!

Quote:

(did you read my paper on that?).

No. Sorry.. I don't always pop in as you can tell. Can you point me to the post # please and thank you. I take, it is in this thread?

Quote:

Therefore I believe the outcome of the Bema is not binary, it is analogue - that is, varying rewards based upon our faithfulness & works.

yes! I liken the rewards something like this: a 6 yr old child, no matter how smart he/she is cannot drive a car!! A child who cannot do first grade work cannot go to second grade for he/she will not be able to do second grade work. The child will be very frustrated because he/she does not understand how to do the work.

The child is not being punished for not moving up to the second grade. A good teacher will help the child get through the work so he/she will move up.

Quote:

Many Christians seem to have a binary view of everything: I'm saved so I get it all, and therefore all Christians will be raptured at the same time.

or just satisfied 'going to heaven'.

Quote:

But what is in us is life. Life starts out small - as a seed - and grows. Good growing trees, when full-grown produce good fruit. Some fruit ripens faster and is picked earlier.

Don't forget LOVE is in us too!!

Great discussion.

Blessings!

10-17-2018 11:06 AM

Sons to Glory!

Re: Partial Rapture

CMW - I enjoyed your two postings. Fresh & frank. And yes, we could ALL be wrong!

One example WL gave that sticks with me, and lately others I know have also commented about it. He used to say that studying the scriptures was like putting film in a camera. It was there just waiting for the light to come in. So many times this has been my experience. I have the word in me, but it's more logos (static) than rhema (living). Then I get some light and shazzam - it really comes alive! Most Christians have this experience I think.

I must be honest and say that I am still more in the realm of the logos word when it comes to the rapture. It just makes the most sense to me that there is more than one rapture of the ekklesia, when I read about raptures occurring at different times. Therefore if you ask if I believe in pre-trib, the answer is "yes." If you ask if I believe in post-trib, the answer is also "yes." That's because that's what I read - they are not mutually exclusive.

I have received some light regarding the judgement of our works at the Bema Seat of Christ. We will receive different rewards, based upon how faithful we've been in a few things that we've been given (did you read my paper on that?). Therefore I believe the outcome of the Bema is not binary, it is analogue - that is, varying rewards based upon our faithfulness & works.

Many Christians seem to have a binary view of everything: I'm saved so I get it all, and therefore all Christians will be raptured at the same time.

But what is in us is life. Life starts out small - as a seed - and grows. Good growing trees, when full-grown produce good fruit. Some fruit ripens faster and is picked earlier.

10-16-2018 09:42 PM

countmeworthy

Re: Partial Rapture

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

I've found that usually when the Bible talks specifically about two things that appear to be contradictory (think predestination vs free will), then they are still both true.

yes. I may not understand the 2 doctrines of predestination vs free will but since I am secure in Christ, both definitely ring true to me.. I believe I WAS chosen before the foundation of the world! I also believe God allowed me to choose HIM or not, thus free will. Growing up, I would get 'glimpses' of God as if He was wetting my appetite for Him.

Quote:

It is just our limited mentalities which can't seem to accept that both are valid.

I liken the scriptures to be like a puzzle. God imho wants us to figure it out. The answers are all in there. It's just not cut and dry. I think that is why we are instructed to STUDY in 2 Timothy 2:15
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth.

Quote:

So if there are verses showing that rapture occurs after the GT and before, then how can this be? Our concept says there is one rapture. So which is true, our concept or the Word? (not a tough question, at least in theory)

I gave you my thoughts on the many raptures mentioned in the scriptures in the last post.

Quote:

So yes, we true Christians are all redeemed by His blood and have been reborn with His indwelling life and have been made new creations in Him, but there is also the matter of our actions after this wonderful occurrence. I have gotten much clearer on this, this past year. It is not so much about the performance-based walk idea I seemed to pick up in the LC, which was a heavy burden indeed. But there definitely is a matter of being well-pleasing to Him - being faithful in at least a few things (as he tells the unfaithful servant in Matt 25).

This past year, I have learned to pray "Thy PERFECT WILL be done in me this day"/ WOW! talk about lifting the burden off my shoulders!! AMAZING GRACE literally!!

Quote:

Many Christians miss this matter of what is expected of them after the new birth.

I blame the pulpit preachers and pulpit teachers.

James 3:1 warns teachers of the Word:
Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.

If the 'teachers' have not learned to RIGHTLY DIVIDE the WORD, is it the babe in Christ's fault they miss the matter of what is expected of them?

The NEXT question is: What does rightly dividing the Word of Truth stated in 2 Timothy 2:15 mean??

Quote:

I hope I conveyed things clearly. Does any of that make sense?

Clear as mud.

JUST KIDDING!

great discussion... and I hope my views were NOT clear as mud. Even more.. hope I did not put anyone to sleep!

10-16-2018 09:01 PM

countmeworthy

Re: Partial Rapture

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Pan trib! I love it - that's really the bottom line!

To put it in simple terms, there are two basic sets of rapture verses (following Nee's outline):
1. Verses that show rapture before the GT
2. Verses that show rapture after the GT

The scriptures reveal many raptures from Genesis to Revelation ( which I will show in a sec). What I and I suppose many Lcrs current and former are not clear on is Nee and Lee's teachings on the rapture, partial or not.

For many years, as an example, I did not know the difference between the rapture and the second coming of Christ. When I would ask Lcrs, they did not know either. That means Lee and Nee did not do a very good job explaining the difference. Now grant it, post tribbers believe the rapture and the second coming of Christ occurs at the end of the tribulation. I do not agree with that view but at least I UNDERSTAND they hold that view.

Lee's explanation was always convuluted to me. I never studied Nee's view.
Frankly since I am comfortable with my study and view on the rapture and the second coming of Christ, Nee or Lee's view does not interest me. In other words if they are pre trib (as I am) good for them. If they hold a different view, that's ok too in the sense that it is not going to persuade me one way or another.

Now to the various raptures and "my" view on a 'partial rapture':

The first time a rapture is seen is in Genesis 5:24
Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him. Hebrews 11:5 elaborates a little more: By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; and he was not found because God took him up; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God.

2) Noah, his family and the animals on the ark experienced a TYPE of rapture. While judgement rained down on earth, they went up. At the end of the trib, Jesus comes down with His armies. (Revelation 19:15)

3) Elijah was raptured and he, Elisha and the prophets following them knew Elijah was going to be taken up (raptured). A chariot with horses came down in a whirlwind (tornado) and took him up. (2 kings 2) - I LOVE THAT CHAPTER!)

4) Jesus went up to heaven twice after His resurrection. First time was when He told Mary Magdalen He had to go up to His Father. Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father John 20:17

Then in Acts 1:9 His disciples watched Jesus go up to heaven: when He had spoken these things, while they beheld, He was taken up; and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as He went up, .....

5) The "partial rapture" of the church as I see it (will explain in a few). 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 for this we say unto you by the Word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Here is where we get into the nitty gritty of the partial rapture. Since I STILL DON'T KNOW Lee or Nee's clear teaching on it, I will share mine.

First off, IT IS MY BELIEF and it is not set in stone, I COULD BE WRONG!

I believe all true Blood washed believers in Christ will be raptured. The rewards will be different for each person however.

I believe not all 'Christians' are washed in the Precious Blood of Jesus and thus they will not be raptured.

BUTTTTTT. I believe there will be other 'boatloads' during the 7 yr trib and many will be raptured then while others will be martyred. (more on this in a bit) This was a parenthesis to the other raptures found in Revelation.

6) This next rapture thought is being debated among many 'rapture centric' groups: Revelation 7 and 14. In Revelation 7, 144,000 Jews from the 12 tribes of Israel will be sealed with the seal of God. It is not clear what their assignment will be but I am convinced they will spread the gospel to the JEWS FIRST (after the rapture of the Blood washed saints) and also to the rest of the left behinders.

Fast forward to Revelation 14 and the Lamb is standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Name and the Name of His Father written on their foreheads.

Some people believe these are 2 different groups. I believe they are the same group as Revelation 7. I believe (but could be wrong) the 144k of Revelation 7 are raptured and are on Mt Zion with the Lord, the LAMB of God in Revelation 14.

7) The two witnesses in Revelation 11 are raptured for sure. But after the three and a half days, the breath of life from God came into them, and they stood on their feet; and great fear fell upon those who were watching them. 12 And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” Then they went up into heaven in the cloud, and their enemies watched them.

8) In Revelation 14:6 John saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people;

There is nothing concrete or telling there is a rapture here but it seems to me, many people will be or could be raptured during this timeframe. I COULD BE WRONG.

In any case, I have listed scriptures pointing to a number of raptures!

Beam us LORD JESUS. BEAM US UP! The sooner the better imho.

10-16-2018 09:32 AM

Sons to Glory!

Re: Partial Rapture

Quote:

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

) were very confusing to me. And when I have asked LCrs in recent years their thoughts on the rapture, they are tongue tied.

Pan trib! I love it - that's really the bottom line!

To put it in simple terms, there are two basic sets of rapture verses (following Nee's outline):
1. Verses that show rapture before the GT
2. Verses that show rapture after the GT

I've found that usually when the Bible talks specifically about two things that appear to be contradictory (think predestination vs free will), then they are still both true. It is just our limited mentalities which can't seem to accept that both are valid. But if it's in the word, it is true. Trouble arises when we, in our limited mentality, glom onto one or the other, and make our stand there. And therefore, figuratively speaking, cut those troublesome and apparently contradictory verse out of our Bible!

So if there are verses showing that rapture occurs after the GT and before, then how can this be? Our concept says there is one rapture. So which is true, our concept or the Word? (not a tough question, at least in theory)

One thing we find with verses talking of the pre-Trib is that there is some condition set for that promise. For instance, the Lord tells the ekklesia in Philadelphia (Rev 3) that "Because you have kept the word of my endurance, I will keep you out of the hour of trial." Christ praises the ones in Philadelphia for their actions (no rebuke like other churches), and says "Because you have . . . I will keep you out . . ."

So yes, we true Christians are all redeemed by His blood and have been reborn with His indwelling life and have been made new creations in Him, but there is also the matter of our actions after this wonderful occurrence. I have gotten much clearer on this, this past year. It is not so much about the performance-based walk idea I seemed to pick up in the LC, which was a heavy burden indeed. But there definitely is a matter of being well-pleasing to Him - being faithful in at least a few things (as he tells the unfaithful servant in Matt 25).

Many Christians miss this matter of what is expected of them after the new birth. We will all give an account of what we did with the grace He's given us - so yes, our works are examined, with potential reward.

That was just my overview thoughts as a quick response, and I hope I conveyed things clearly. Does any of that make sense?

BTW - Just because WN and WL advocated the partial rapture, doesn't make it wrong. They were standing on the teachings of several before them (so let's not throw the proverbial baby out with the dirty bath water).

10-15-2018 08:07 PM

countmeworthy

Re: Partial Rapture

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

So taking from Nee's quote (in the first message of this thread - BTW: does this come from a book?), here are the three basic schools of thought concerning the rapture:

(1) The whole body of the saved will be raptured before the Great Tribulation

(2) The whole body of the saved must go through the Great Tribulation before they are raptured

(3) A part of the saved will be raptured before the Great Tribulation and a part of them will be raptured after the Great Tribulation.

Personally, I have always thought that both #1 and #2 had good scripture to back up their respective viewpoints. That is, there are verses to show the rapture happens before the Great Trib, and there are verses to show it happens after the Great Trib. Therefore, #3 must be the most accurate.

What do you think: #1, #2 or door #3?

I LEAN on Door #1. BUT Door #1 must be more specific. Many believers are not saved because they have never truly trusted/experienced the Precious Blood of Jesus. They think they will go to heaven by believing in God and doing good works, going to church, giving tithes, giving to the poor etc..

If a person is truly washed in the Blood of the Lamb, the person is eternally saved, even if he /she 'backslides'. The reason we believers stand before the JUDGE at the Bema seat is to receive our rewards. At least 5 crowns (rewards) are mentioned in the scriptures. (Crown of Life, Righteousness, Exultation, (Rejoicing), and crown of Glory,).

No true believer washed in the Blood of Jesus will lose his/her salvation. (a debatable discussion among many Christian 'churches'. The confusion with the doctrine of salvation among different Christian circles is the lack of understanding the teaching and application of Christ's Blood.

That lack of understanding IMHO then leads to the 'partial rapture' theory, which does make sense. Many 'Christians' may be 'left behind' because while they might believe in God, in Jesus, are church goers but they are NOT Blood washed believers!

I don't know about you guys who were/are in the LC, but learning and experiencing the POWER of the Cleansing Blood of Jesus in my hey day in the LC, is what has truly SAVED me and kept me from the fear of man...especially the religious man. I remember hearing something like if a person leaves the LC, bad things happen. So the POWER OF THE BLOOD OF JESUS is of no avail then? Please.

Sorry to digress.

There is another interesting study that has grabbed my attention this past year which has clarified some questions on the rapture.. partial or not.

In a nutshell (if that is EVEN possible)

I have discovered that when Jesus was talking about His return, as in Matthew 24, Jesus is not talking about the rapture spoken of in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 or in 1 Corinthians 15:52.

Had I known this when I came on board with the moniker "countmeworthy" taken from Luke 21:36, I might not have chosen that moniker!

I AM counted worthy to escape ALL THE THINGS THAT ARE about to come to pass! I am not going to be left behind or go through the Trib! Revelation 3:10 11 tells us: Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. 11 I am coming quickly; hold fast what you have, so that no one will take your crown.

I AM WASHED, CLEANSED, SANCTIFIED BY THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB! In Luke 21:36, Jesus is telling the JEWS to watch, to pray TO BE COUNTED WORTHY TO ESCAPE THE TRIB! The church had not yet been born! He was not talking to the gentiles!

Again in Luke 21, as in Matthew 24, Jesus is speaking to the JEWS. They had no knowledge of the rapture or the church or the infilling of the Holy Spirit. So the TRIBULATION which is 7 yrs, and the last 3 1/2 being the GREAT TRIB is mainly for the JEWS who rejected Jesus. The religious, orthodox Jews are waiting for the Messiah to come.

I also think and it is MY PERSONAL OPINION, that Hebrews was written to the saved Jews.. and it is very possible, the non believing Jews who are left behind going through the TRIB will read HEBREWS when they realize the rapture has occurred.

I don't think Nee and Lee even knew this. As I wrote earlier, the LC teachings on the rapture be it partial, pre trib, mid trib, post trib or even PAN TRIB.. (it will all pan out = pan trib

) were very confusing to me. And when I have asked LCrs in recent years their thoughts on the rapture, they are tongue tied.

10-15-2018 06:52 PM

countmeworthy

Re: Partial Rapture

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

Bro Sons, Carol and I have a thing. But if I was putting my money on a rapture discussion, it would be on Carol.

We have a THING???

10-15-2018 04:02 PM

awareness

Re: Partial Rapture

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Awareness & Countmeworthy - I'm having a little trouble figuring out how your current replies pertain to the topic of Partial Rapture . . . maybe you can help me out.

Bro Sons, Carol and I have a thing. But if I was putting my money on a rapture discussion, it would be on Carol.

10-15-2018 11:55 AM

Sons to Glory!

Re: Partial Rapture

Awareness & Countmeworthy - I'm having a little trouble figuring out how your current replies pertain to the topic of Partial Rapture . . . maybe you can help me out.

10-15-2018 10:27 AM

countmeworthy

Re: Partial Rapture

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

There's so much packed into that paragraph.

1) Jesus may now know when he's returning, but he's not telling any more than the Father was telling back then.

And you know this how????

Quote:

2) "But He is now fully God and fully man." ??? Can a heavenly being be fully man? That's interesting.

He has always been God. The second Person of the Godhead. A Mystery for sure.. But sometimes the "God" part of Him was Blocked by the Father. I will explain in a bit.

when you are praying, .... “Pray, then, in this way:

‘Our Father who is in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
10
‘Your kingdom come.
Your will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.

In this passage Jesus was talking to the people by the mountainside..at least 5,000 I believe. (btw.. have you ever thought how all the people heard Him so clearly??

I am sure He made sure every single person heard Him loud and clear without using a megaphone!)

But in John 14:6 Jesus disclosed to His disciples in order to get to the Father in Heaven, they had to go through Him. “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

Why did Jesus not tell that to the people at the mountainside ?

Can you imagine how arrogant He would have come across? They would have stoned Him right then and there!! With His disciples though, He was preparing them to take the gospel out the world. And I am sure they were convinced Jesus was the Savior and Messiah.

Ya know 5 months before getting saved, I was writing a 'Dear God" letter one night. As I was writing, I 'heard' a Voice telling me to call on Jesus. To pray to Him. But in the other ear, the devil (not knowing it was Satan) told me to skip 'the middle Man' and go straight to God.

If there are 2 things, I am forever grateful for being in the LC in San Diego, was I learned to go to the Father through JESUS.

I am so baffled by the number of believers who rarely pray directly to their LORD, JESUS. So many people pray O GOD.. O GOD.. ETC.. in the Name of Jesus. I get the sense they do not know Jesus the Christ. But I may be wrong. And to be clear, I do address the Father at times, the Holy Spirit at other times, and our Sweet Lord Jesus most of the time. Often times, I address all Three. I also pray 'In the Name of Jesus' at times too.

The second important and most important teaching in the scriptures I learned and experienced in the LC was trusting in the PRECIOUS, PRECIOUS BLOOD OF JESUS, THE BELOVED LAMB OF GOD Who took away all of my sins, past, present and to come. I do not take His Cleansing Blood for granted in any way at all.

Quote:

I do have to admit that prophecy is captivating. I was caught up in it back in the Hal Lindsey days (before his 1988 failure - and yes, I know he's still active - but if we went by the Old Testament we would have stoned him already).

Hal Lindsey is still around. The man is the most B O R I N G teacher/preacher around. Maybe that's why he has been married 4 times, He bored his wives to death!

(Sorry LORD, just a joke..he may bore me, but not You or other people)

I still and always will believe we are in the last SECONDS of the last days. Still a die hard believer in the PRE TRIB RAPTURE followed by the TRIB and the second coming of Christ at the battle of Armageddon WITH HIS armies.

HAVE A GREAT AND BLESSED WEEK Harold and everyone here!

10-13-2018 11:17 AM

Sons to Glory!

Re: Partial Rapture

10-13-2018 09:36 AM

Weighingin

Re: Partial Rapture

Regarding prophecy, Lee said definitely that the sons of
Oil would be Moses and Elijah. Yet the scriptures
say it has been given to all men to die once. So does
Moses die a second time? I don’t see how one can definitely
Say who the sons of oil would be. By the way, to tie
This into this thread, after they’re resurrected,
arent they “raptured” into heaven?

10-13-2018 08:18 AM

awareness

Re: Partial Rapture

Quote:

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Btw.. I hope you unerstand JESUS does know when He is returning. When He made that statement, His Body had not yet died, resurrected and glorified. He was fully man. But He is now fully God and fully man. He knows for He and His Father and the Holy Spirit are ONE.

Blessings

There's so much packed into that paragraph.

1) Jesus may now know when he's returning, but he's not telling any more than the Father was telling back then.

2) "But He is now fully God and fully man." ??? Can a heavenly being be fully man? That's interesting.

3) I remember in John Jesus saying, before his death, resurrection, and glorification, "I and the Father are one."

At any rate, I'm glad you pointed out that this prophecy stuff are theories. That's what I've always loved about you Carol. You're honest.

I do have to admit that prophecy is captivating. I was caught up in it back in the Hal Lindsey days (before his 1988 failure - and yes, I know he's still active - but if we went by the Old Testament we would have stoned him already).

Blessings back at ya, sister.

Harold

10-12-2018 08:49 PM

countmeworthy

Re: Partial Rapture

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Not sure your reply has to do with the rapture, does it? (seems more like it's about knowing the day of the 2nd coming . . .)

I started the thread because I thought Nee's write-up of the differing views of the rapture (Greek: harpazo - caught away), which I cited, was laid-out the best I'd seen. And along with it he presents the different authors who held the three basic rapture views. Regardless what you think of Nee, I thought it was well organized and informative, and a good place to start.

However, there are not any current theologians listed, as Nee wrote this some time ago obviously. It seems the overwhelming thought in Christendom these days is that "Before the Great Tribulation Jesus will immediately rapture all Christians to be with Him in heaven for eternity." I don't think I've ever even heard a current preacher speak much on the possibility of something different -- perhaps once or twice in passing, and then any other ideas of the rapture that differed in the slightest were quickly dismissed as being obviously in error.

Lately, I have heard some brothers who participate in different groups around here, talk about how the church will go through the Great Trib. So maybe there are some other views out there starting to circulate.

Does anybody have a reference to TA Sparks and his take on the rapture? All I could find is this: Sparks - Manchild In this he talks about how the manchild is composed of mature believers who will be raptured to the throne for a specific purpose. Another Sparks piece on Overcomers

Chuck Missler, Robert Breaker, BBC International, Perry Stone and afew others have helped me formulate my belief in a pre trib rapture. I do also believe there will be other raptures during the trib as well as martyrdom.

I believe the 144,000 in Revelation 7 are the same as those in /revelation 14. IF so they were/are raptured. I know other people who believe Rev 7 and 14 are 2 different groups. I am not convinced.

The 2 witnesses are killed and their bodies lay in the street for 3 days then resurrected and raptured in front of a bunch of people.

Then also in Revelation 14 we read:
And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

While I have no proof, it appears to ME people responding positively with a repentant heart to the everlasting gospel might get raptured.

That is yet to be seen.

And thus you have a mid trib rapture as well as a pre trib rapture!

Now Irvin Baxter believes in a post trib rapture. I find his teachings on the last days rather compelling but I respectfully disagree on his views on a post trib rapture.

Blessings

10-12-2018 07:31 PM

Sons to Glory!

Re: Partial Rapture

Quote:

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Lee's theory via the Recovery version was/is all convuleted. When I have asked LCrs or ex Lcrs, they can't explain his partial rapture theory to me either.

Just read the 3rd school of thought (aka partial rapture theory) in Nee's paper that was linked in the first post. Section V states this school. I think this should be pretty close to what WL and the LC believes.

10-12-2018 07:06 PM

countmeworthy

Re: Partial Rapture

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

You're not the first to figure it all out. There's been plenty that were certain before you, that so far have been wrong.

If Jesus and the angels don't know the day or hour, how can I trust Nee and/or Lee to know anything at all about it? For that matter, how can I trust anyone on this matter, that is this side of the heaven. And even then, they don't know.

I did not say I have it ALL figured out. I have looked at several theories because that is what they all are, including my own.

Lee's theory via the Recovery version was/is all convuleted. When I have asked LCrs or ex Lcrs, they can't explain his partial rapture theory to me either.

Btw.. I hope you unerstand JESUS does know when He is returning. When He made that statement, His Body had not yet died, resurrected and glorified. He was fully man. But He is now fully God and fully man. He knows for He and His Father and the Holy Spirit are ONE.

Blessings

10-12-2018 02:09 PM

Sons to Glory!

Re: Partial Rapture

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

10-12-2018 01:31 PM

awareness

Re: Partial Rapture

Quote:

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

I do not know if Nee or Lee discussed in depth the rapture or partial rapture in spite of the Revelation and Matthew trainings..don't know if there was a Daniel training...

in any case, when I left the LC, on this topic I left very confused. Of course I was also young in the Lord. I do know I was confused between the rapture and the second coming, being left in outer darkness for 1000 yrs...etc

Not confused anymore.

10-12-2018 01:03 PM

countmeworthy

Re: Partial Rapture

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

In looking at the matter of the Bema (aka "Judgment Seat of Christ"), which is being discussed specifically on another thread called "Outer Darkness," the topic of the rapture is closely related. I did a search and didn't find a specific thread on here regarding the topic of Partial Rapture. This is an idea promoted by Nee, Lee and the LC, who got the concept from many before them.

Here is a paper I found by Nee that I think might be the basis for some discussion, if anyone is interested. It lays the schools for the different rapture ideas out in about the best, most concise way I've seen. Partial Rapture Paper Found Here

(Does anyone know if this appears in a specific Nee book, and if so, which one?)

THE PAPER STARTS OUT:
[/i]

10-09-2018 10:49 AM

Sons to Glory!

Partial Rapture

In looking at the matter of the Bema (aka "Judgment Seat of Christ"), which is being discussed specifically on another thread called "Outer Darkness," the topic of the rapture is closely related. I did a search and didn't find a specific thread on here regarding the topic of Partial Rapture. This is an idea promoted by Nee, Lee and the LC, who got the concept from many before them.

Here is a paper I found by Nee that I think might be the basis for some discussion, if anyone is interested. It lays the schools for the different rapture ideas out in about the best, most concise way I've seen. Partial Rapture Paper Found Here

(Does anyone know if this appears in a specific Nee book, and if so, which one?)

THE PAPER STARTS OUT:

Quote:

In order to understand Matthew 24 and 25, it is essential to have a clear knowledge of the subject of rapture. For it is one of the most important matters in this last hour. Unfortunately it is greatly misunderstood by many. Rapture is the same as the word “receive” found in John 14.1-3. It does not signify the idea of “climbing up” to heaven but of the Lord receiving us to heaven. Hence rapture is a specific term used to denote His receiving us at His soon return.

There are different views on rapture among believers. Some say (1) that the whole body of the saved will be raptured before the Great Tribulation; others believe (2) that the whole body of the saved must go through the Great Tribulation before they are raptured; while still others feel (3) that a part of the saved will be raptured before the Great Tribulation and a part of them will be raptured after the Great Tribulation. There are mainly these three schools of interpretation on the subject; yet merely because any one of them is different from the one you hold to does not give you any warrant to denounce the different view as heresy. It is wrong to withhold fellowship simply for this reason. Well-known believers are found in all three schools.

Of the first school mentioned, names can be cited such as J. N. Darby, William Kelly (C. H. Spurgeon once said that Kelly’s brain was as large as the universe), R. A. Torrey (who later changed to a post-tribulation rapture view), Phillips Brooks, James Gray, Arno G. Gaebelein, J. A. Seiss, C. I. Scofield, and so forth. Of the second school, there could be listed such names as George Muller (who first believed in pre-tribulation rapture), A.J. Gordon of Boston, A. B. Simpson, W. J. Erdman, W. G. Moorehead, Henry Frost of Canada, James Wright, Benjamin Newton, and so on. And as to the third school, we have names such as Hudson Taylor, Robert Chapman, Robert Govett (Spurgeon praised his writings as having light a century ahead of his time and as being full of gold), G. H. Pember, D. M. Panton (the “prince of prophecy”) and others. None of the three schools can completely ignore the others, yet only one is correct. Let us therefore examine them with fairness, having the attitude of a judge and not that of a lawyer.