Originally Posted by Freedom

On the subject of Revivalists, I would say that they were effective so as long as they acted as problem-solvers. Notice how no one here has ever denied the possibility that Lee may have had valid criticism about the state of various Christian groups during his time.

For the sake of argument, lets say WL identified a set of problems that he sought to remedy, and his ministry encompassed what he believed to be that 'remedy'. That very well could have been the case, except for one thing. Even after 10 or 20 years of ministry, Lee was still speaking about so-called "degraded Christianity." If his ministry was meant to solve some kind of problem, and that problem was believed to have been solved, then why was everyone in the LC still so concerned about Christian groups on the outside? The fact that they were still so obsessed with the problem instead of the supposed 'solution' proves that his ministry never was a solution to anything.

In LC hymn #1273, the following lyrics are found:
For the church has fallen low, Thinking everything they know...
and
Overcome degraded Christianity!

When I read those kinds of lyrics, I wonder about their purpose. Again, the LC believes it to be the one true church. If they really believe that to be the case, and believe themselves to be in a state of 'recovery', then why do they so quickly point their fingers at Christianity?

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Thanks for the Finney update, Evangelical, but you are still posting a lot of irrelevant, off-top things. You are clearly attempting to avoid, evade and deflect from the real issues at hand. Did Finney every proclaim that he was "the only person on earth speaking as God's oracle since 1945"? (paraph) Did Finney ever hire and fire elders or co-workers at his personal whim, and according to their personal loyalty himself? Did Finney ever have to relocate to a different continent because he ripped his followers off and was abusive to his fellow co-workers? Shall I go on?
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Originally Posted by Evangelical

Charles Finney and other revivalists had negative things to say about Christianity but like us their goal was to revive not to kill.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

I don't think I heard Witness Lee mention Finney's name even one time.

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Originally Posted by Evangelical

However, my point about the degradation is not a red herring because it is directly related and a sign of the degradation. If you disagree that homosexuality is a sign of degradation, then please offer your alternative definition for degradation?

Originally Posted by Evangelical

As long as you and others consider every church in that table to be part of Christianity, and as long as those parts of Christianity are highlighted green, then I think "Christianity is degraded" is a factual statement.

If I believed that just having gay members is a sign of a degradation I would have said that. But I did not say that, I posted a wikipedia page that shows the positions of the denominations. It's one thing to have gay members, it's another to support gay marriage.

Times have certainly changed as the table shows, and 20 years ago that table would have been mostly red, and now there is a lot of green. The situation does not seem to be improving. So I think there is something to be said about degradation becoming worse than what it was years ago.

But that is just one aspect of degradation. Behind that is the turning away from God and the general spiritual degradation that the bible talks about will occur in the last days.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I did find some of it funny. We can, and do, laugh at ourselves sometimes.

Originally Posted by leastofthese

You're great Evan-g!

I'll just state what the common reader clearly knows. The problem with Lee's position (that you've adopted) is that it's not really about the denominations marked in "green" - you chose the example of gay marriage - but it could be any other issue that mark them "green".

You paint broad strokes of "degradation" "used by Satan" for any group that does not follow the teachings of Witness Lee - not denominationalism.

That's what is so obvious that it should hit you in the face. Also, my initial post was clearly satire - come on bro.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

It's not slanderous if it's true. We only have to look at the number of denominations and individual churches accepting of gay marriage for example to see how they are utilized by Satan.

One only has to go to this table

"Summary of denominational positions in North America and Europe"

and look at all the green boxes:

Originally Posted by Freedom

There you go again, throwing in another red herring. I hate to be the one to break it to you, but the LC does also have gay members. I can think of several just in the area I am from, most of whom are likely still current members. So regardless of your position on that issue, if you are going to use that as an identifier of 'degradation' then you are obligated to hold the LCM to your same standard. But that isn't really the issue is it? You're just picking an issue in attempt to make the LCM look superior.

Of course, all of this is beside the point. As has been stated time and time again, what WL criticized when he was alive is not what is in front of us today. Times have changed, Christianity faces its own issues, and the churches and denominations do not necessarily function in the same way as in the past. So even if WL had valid criticism of Christianity, how can you be so sure that such criticism is still relevant today? Why do you pick contemporary issues in order to try to defend things WL said many years ago?

Originally Posted by Evangelical

It's not slanderous if it's true. We only have to look at the number of denominations and individual churches accepting of gay marriage for example to see how they are utilized by Satan.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

It's not slanderous if it's true. We only have to look at the number of denominations and individual churches accepting of gay marriage for example to see how they are utilized by Satan.

And what about the idol worship in the Catholic church? Degradation or not?

If it's true then it's not slanderous.

But the degradation is because of denominational ism.

But with the list of things in the OP, that is slanderous because they are untrue statements. For example "14. Members must attend at least one “training” per year" is simply not the case.

Originally Posted by Freedom

Evangelical wonders how I can make statements such as "Nothing that the LC teaches or practices helps people to grow as Christians or bring other people to Jesus."

Originally Posted by Freedom

I can think of numerous instances where I heard slander directed towards other Christians, and most of the people speaking such things had never been part of any other Christian group. So if they were to make some generalization about other Christians, how would they even know if were true or not?

The fact is they had no idea and were just repeating WL's slander. WL is on the record saying things such as "Christendom has become an organ of Satan." How is that not slanderous? How is calling Christianity 'degraded' not slanderous?

Originally Posted by Ohio

Back around '03, I was in a home gathering with the college students. A young lady I knew came in and soon commented on pathetic Christianity after a song. It was quite warm in that non-A/C'd room and she was just bursting out of her skimpy clothes.

It then hit me. Is this what we have produced in our next generation?

I knew her folks for years, yet these young ones have learned only doctrines and judgments. They have become steeped with condemnation for others, which so easily rolls off their tongue, yet possess so little modesty and self-awareness as children of God.

Originally Posted by Freedom

I can think of numerous instances where I heard slander directed towards other Christians, and most of the people speaking such things had never been part of any other Christian group. So if they were to make some generalization about other Christians, how would they even know if were true or not?

The fact is they had no idea and were just repeating WL's slander. WL is on the record saying things such as "Christendom has become an organ of Satan." How is that not slanderous? How is calling Christianity 'degraded' not slanderous?

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Most of the things leastofthese posted are not "various claims the LCM makes".

For example, we never claim that it is a requirement to make accusation or slander. That itself is a slanderous and accusatory statement.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

You are looking at the outward things.

Originally Posted by Freedom

Do you not see the irony in the various claims the LCM makes? What they practice is what serves to prove that they are nothing special.

Originally Posted by Freedom

There are various teachings that are enticing to people who are part of the LCM. We could spend all day discussing those teachings, but at the end of the day none of those things are relevant to the vast majority of Christians.

Originally Posted by Freedom

Nothing that the LC teaches or practices helps people to grow as Christians or bring other people to Jesus.

Originally Posted by Freedom

It just teaches LC members how to be prideful about their supposed ‘standing’ as the church and gloat over the notion that they are ‘recovered’ when everyone else isn't.

Originally Posted by Freedom

Every wonder why a group which purports to be something so significant remains so stagnant, insignificant and unknown? It’s not because of ‘opposition’. It’s because what they practice does not compliment any of their claims. Outsiders do see that. Actions speak louder than words.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

This list contains many nonfactual and misleading statements that indicates to me you aren't a member of the local churches.

Originally Posted by leastofthese

1. Make sure this church is located in a city and has created a 501c3 organization that follows the naming scheme “The Church in (insert city name)”. Does it follow a different naming scheme? – NOT the one true church.
2. Make sure that this church is affiliated with the Living Stream Ministry, Witness Lee, and the blended brothers. Vague awareness of the LSM or an informal relationship to the LSM is unacceptable and that church would NOT be considered the one true church.
3. Propagating LSM literature within and outside the church is a must. Morning revival, Recovery version bibles, LSM hymnal, Witness Lee books MUST be sold on site. Only exception to the rule – Watchman Nee literature may also be sold.
4. Members will only read from LSM material. If a member ventures away from pre-approved reading, that person must be shamed and made to feel like they failed the Church and their God. Furthermore, if a member does not keep a library of at least 10 pre-approved books – they must be shamed accordingly. The more books you own the better. All e-books purchased must be accompanied by the corresponding paper or hardback purchase.
5. Each member will attend at least 3 meetings per week. Including 2 meetings on the Lord’s day.
6. Members will never use the word “Sunday”.
7. Members will never admit, under any circumstances, that their church is a denomination. Denominations are bad and cannot be part of the one true church.
8. Slandering other Christ followers and making self-righteous accusations must happen anytime two or more gather.
9. You will sense a spirit of confusion. Members must lead one another to ignore these feelings. When in doubt, quote the morning revival, Witness Lee, or at the very least say something “spiritual”.
10. Members learn the lingo – and repeat it often. The more cliché statements the better. When in doubt always default to “O Lord Jesus”
11. Members hold one another accountable for approving of any and all statements that follow the LSM doctrine. The use of “Amen” is the most appropriate response.
12. Members will overuse and accidentally misuse “Amen”. Disregard immediately, they were likely in their flesh.
13. All members must keep a superficial, surface level relationship with one another. This keeps things simple and neat. No mess.
14. Members must attend at least one “training” per year, preferably in Anaheim. Showing slight disapproval for those who do not attend is appropriate.
15. Members will learn and live the dress code.
16. It is highly preferred that you begin to speak using the same cadence and tonality as the other members. This is NOT a requirement, but is directly correlated to your standing before the Lord.


What else did I miss?