Originally Posted by ExChurchKid

Thanks for the kind words, and I agree with you . For therapists, I've found it helpful to mention Living Stream Ministry so they have something to google. But that goes back to my whole "we should write a book so people have more knowledge" thing. I'm really glad thelordsrecovery.org is a thing, so it actually is more google-able now than when we were younger.

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

I can so much relate to this. My parents’ only friends are in the LC, if they can even be called friends because I know most of them would defriend them if my prents ever decide to leave, which at this point is unliekly. I’ve told therapists about LC and they just give me a blank look until I compare them to JW or Mormons or the Amish.

But Exchurchkid, it seems that since both of us were raised in the Lc but were able to escape from it, it speaks more to our strength and ability to think for ourselves despite outside influences. The loneliness will take some years to overcome, because we have to start from scratch so to speak. We were babies when we joined the LC- it takes hears for us to overcome the learned helplessness babies experience in detrimental environments.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Have you ordained yourself as the forum speech-Nazi?

STG was gracefully backing out of the discussion but you still took a parting shot.

Originally Posted by jigsaw44

This thread got even messier, locking it is my recommendation.

If you need help on this forum Exchurchkid, I think trapped is your best bet.

Originally Posted by ExChurchKid

I'm happy to answer this, thanks for asking! I think it's the powerlessness, and then everything stems from that. As minors we are under the control of our parents, financially and emotionally. Our parents require us to follow the LC doctrine, so the doctrine dictates our lives. The strict rules our parents enforce, both through punishments and shaming, are enforced and encouraged by all adults in our lives, because all adults our parents allow around us are LC people. The Recovery isn't well known, so complaining to people outside of it isn't very productive. At the same time, the brainwashing takes the power to dissent and think critically away from us. There is no escape, we learn. We are rebellious and wanting to leave is our natural sinful nature coming out. This is drilled into us. Sometimes it takes all the way through college and even grad school to experience the outside world enough to realize something is wrong. Then it takes therapy to overcome the brainwashing. Then you realize you're isolated from the world around you. Leaving the church leaves you isolated, because the church isolated you for so long. You have no friends. If your family is in the church, you don't have them. If they aren't, you don't have them either because they won't believe their own family members did this to you. And you don't have a relationship with them anyway because your parents kept you away from them, emotionally if not physically.

Originally Posted by jigsaw44

Exchurchkid- sure, I would stop mentioning anything along the lines of you needing help. Hopefully you find all the you answers you desire on this forum- best of luck.

Originally Posted by awareness

Can't we all just get along? I'm miffed that ExChurckKid is gone.

Cuz of her honesty and openness, she grew on me quickly. But we've connected by cell phones. I'm happy about that.

Now I see why gay or not ladies aren't welcomed here.

Seems out here we're all suppose to be the same. A repeat of the LC. So we left the church, but the church didn't leave us. Sorry to say.

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

I am sorry for my part in this. I went back and looked and things went along pretty well until I made a comment regarding the nature of this forum in post #28 (and a follow-up in #34). Until then, there was a decent discussion, at least I think so.

Please forgive me for my part in the derailment of this thread.

And since the original poster seems to take umbrage with my comments, I will sideline myself.

Originally Posted by jigsaw44

This thread got even messier, locking it is my recommendation.

If you need help on this forum Exchurchkid, I think trapped is your best bet.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Have you ordained yourself as the forum speech-Nazi?

STG was gracefully backing out of the discussion but you still took a parting shot.

Originally Posted by ExChurchKid

Dude. Your tone-deafness is showing again. Please just leave it be.

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

I'm sorry you and I don't seem to communicate effectively with one another . . . so I will stop trying, at least on this thread. It appears to be one of those frustrating situations where I only seem to make the misunderstanding worse.

But irregardless, Praise the Lord - He's got this too! Once again, we hafta just give it to Him and take a rest.

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

I'm sorry you and I don't seem to communicate effectively with one another . . . so I will stop trying, at least on this thread. It appears to be one of those frustrating situations where I only seem to make the misunderstanding worse.

But irregardless, Praise the Lord - He's got this too! Once again, we hafta just give it to Him and take a rest.

Originally Posted by Nell

Well said, Trapped.

I would add a word to all...man up. Suck it up. Don't call 911!!! Good grief!!

This discussion is not about you and your sweet little "wouldn't hurt a fly" disposition. You want to help? Listen. When someone tells you you're not helping, believe them. Stop preaching. Stop trying to explain your "negative magnet" rhetoric. You can do this.

I think we could all learn something from this discussion. Stop trying to fix ExCK.

ExCK, I don't know that StG is speaking from hypocrisy. I think "tone deaf" might be more accurate. What do you think?

Nell

Originally Posted by awareness

Did I miss something? Where did XCK say she had a hole in her heart?

Originally Posted by ExChurchKid

Nell, I could accept tone deaf as a better description than hypocritical.
* In the LC I was constantly told I was being helped, only to be hurt or shamed because I didn't feel helped.
* I am uncomfortable about what Ohio said about me being vitriolic and being banned.
* I feel that sometimes people are allowed to say very patronizing things because they say it in the garb of religion, but when I stand up for myself in plain words, I am the enemy.
* That is how it was in the Recovery.

Originally Posted by awareness

Did I miss something? Where did XCK say she had a hole in her heart?

Originally Posted by jigsaw44

so I guess exlcmember- find something that can patch the hole in your heart.

Originally Posted by Trapped

Holy smokes everyone. ExChurchKid has been pretty clear about where she is right now related to God. Let her be there.

Originally Posted by ExChurchKid

Lol. I hate the hypocrisy if StG rignt now. Claiming he just wants to help hurting ones and yet hurting them with his narrow mindedness and religious rhetoric.

Originally Posted by ExChurchKid

I am not a believer. I think what you are saying is false. You are free to have it be true to you, and I will not force my agnosticism on you, but to me it is false. Take your religiousness elsewhere and drop it. By forcing it on me, you are hurting the very type of person you claim you want to help. I have received no free gift and how dare you presume I have? If I am pushed much farther by the religion in portions of this forum, I will not be so nice about my agnosticism any longer.

Originally Posted by awareness

I'm a magnet . . . . in reverse polarity. Lighten up.

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Well thanks for coming on here! God does love you - that's the message of the whole bible. And He is infinitely capable, however, He does His best not to cross your free will. And I could tell you amazing things that prayer has done - some answers that were instantaneous and undeniable. So that's my testimony. With that, we now know a little better how to pray for you.

I have to ask - was there no time when you experienced something of the presence of the Lord? While the LC certainly has some big issues, I do believe most there are regenerated Christians with Christ living in them. So at some point you probably heard a good gospel message about Christ loving you so much He came to die for you . . . is that accurate or not? Of course, it's still up to you (that free will thing) whether you accept His free gift or not.

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

don't we want to be a "magnet" so hurting ones will come on here to get help?

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

There's also been several studies done about the proportion of people that complain verses those that have had a good experience, and the ratio of people who will talk about bad experiences is much, much higher than those who've had voice good experiences. In other words, this forum is something of a magnet for LC related grievances.*

With that said, I do, sincerely, appreciate the openness of this forum! Thanks for your service . . .

Originally Posted by ExChurchKid

I'm not a believer. God has no love or capability for me or my situation, if he is even real. Prayer does nothing in my experience, so what I need isn't prayer. I need you to accept that not everyone is a believer and that's okay.

Originally Posted by Nell

How Big Is God
Ray Price

Though man may strive to go beyond the reach of space
To crawl beyond the distant shim'ring stars
This world's a room so small within my Master's house
The open sky's a portion of His yard

How big is God? How big and wide His vast domain
To try and tell, these lips can only start
He's big enough to rule His mighty universe
Yet small enough to live within my heart

As winter's chill may cause the tiny seed to fall
To lie asleep till waked by summer's rain
The heart grown cold will warm and throb with life anew
The Master's touch will bring the glow again

I love it...the Master's touch--
Nell

Originally Posted by ExChurchKid

Ohio, are you being deliberately difficult?

Originally Posted by Ohio

Here we go again. Forum cancal culture on full display. Others ganging up on you to force you into submission and rally the troops to humiliate you? Seriously? There was nothing in your comments that should be apologized for. And now you are scrutinized for WHY you are here?

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Originally Posted by Ohio

Here we go again. Forum cancel culture on full display. Others ganging up on you to force you into submission and rally the troops to humiliate you? Seriously? There was nothing in your comments that should be apologized for. And now you are scrutinized for WHY you are here?

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

I don't care what a believer calls themself - I stand with who they really are in Christ, in the new creation. All this other stuff will get sorted out by Him - Christ in us is our one hope of glory! The Seed is planted.

My new theme these days is, "Praise the Lord - He's got this!" So regardless of what our surroundings and environment are, and the problems that face us from without and within, He loves us and He is fully able! Apart from that I don't know all that much, except take problem to Jesus.

So tell us more about yourself and what needs our prayer . . .

Originally Posted by ExChurchKid

Just out of curiosity (and in no way trying to diminish your own experiences), what about those who are agnostic, or atheist, or who believe differently? Personally, I do not stand in the Lord. I'm not sure if God is real, or cares, and I put far more trust in myself and my therapist for healing. Do you still stand with me?

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Again, I in no way want to diminish their experiences and hurt, and stand with them in the Lord for their healing!

Originally Posted by Trapped

I daresay that the reason the Lord lead you out in the 1980s (in other words, what He was saving you from experiencing) is probably the very reason the church kids who were born then and/or grew up then need to come here to get help and feel heard and find out their wounds are legitimate and deep. The ones who grew up in that era and afterward experienced what you were probably saved from going through. It is worth praising Him that He lead you out at that time!

Originally Posted by Ohio

he often gets pushback because he is not harsh enough on this forum towards the LC system. Imagine that. Please pass the irony.

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

I believe I didn't communicate well and the basics of what I was attempting to convey was fairly misunderstood . . . not that important.

We move on. Sorry.

Originally Posted by jigsaw44

The Local Churches definitely are a personality cult- who obsess and idolize the man named- Witness Lee.

Hilarious example- I remember viewing a thread on here and someone leaked a video (2018 blending conference church of irvine) on a popular figure named minrou chen. He said he had felt the spirit of witness lee inside of himself and that witness lee was by his side watching over him.................................. I expected him to correct himself and somehow acknowledge to some extent that, the statement he just said was ridiculous and his tongue slipped. But no, he stuck by that statement and try soften it by saying he was not boastful in that statement and that he just humbly and gracefully believes that the spirit of witness lee is within him and intertwined within himself. I expected everyone to realize that this was teh breaking point of Witness lee ass kissing- but not they continue to shout Amen as they usually do. Just mindless people who are to myopic to see the madness of this man or too scared to act differently cause of how popular witness lee is. This is just one sample of the many acts of looney you will see in the LC, if you stick long enough and they trust you enough to expose themselves.

....

- Btw somebody link that video of Minrou with a time stamp of his heresy.

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Sure. You'll find plenty like that here!

My LC experience wasn't that bad, and I know the Lord lead me there in 74. But I also praise Him he lead me out in the late 1980s. (plus the localities I was in, at least in in Ohio in the 80s, didn't revolve as closely around Anaheim back then) And I don't think my kids had too much in the way of negative experiences there . . . at least the one son I've asked so far didn't seem to think so.

Originally Posted by Nell

You are correct. That, and I just stated why we are here...here we try to help wounded believers. We are here for this...why are you here?

Nell

Originally Posted by ExChurchKid

Sons to Glory, I think the sidebar summary is that:
1) You assert this forum is a magnet for negative LC experiences.
2) Most people on here, including the mod, seem to disagree, and assert that this forum for discussion about the LCs, and it just so happens that most ex-LC members have negative experiences.
So in conclusion, maybe drop the negative experience magnet assertion?

P.S. I don't want to speak for Nell, but I think they were asking why you're here, because the forum isn't supposed to pass judgment on the posting of negative experiences, and yet in a way, by trying to assert some sort of magnet effect, you were passing judgment. Anyway, that's my takeaway.

Originally Posted by aron

I've used this forum as a kind of therapy. Also I read a lot of books. Also, I learned at my job that people like me and appreciate me. And I took paid therapy several times, because I needed to vent, privately, and have someone tell me that venting was okay, not evil or sinful or rebellious.

The insidious nature of the Witness Lee Mind Control Programme and Guanxi Network (WLMCPGN) is that you never know it got you. The brainwashing is so deep and self-reinforcing that you never go, "Hey, I'm brainwashed. I can't even think for myself." No, the program hides itself.

Let me give an example. Years after leaving the LC, I was in a conference with a well-known Christian speaker, and they were really hitting all the notes. The audience was just frozen with amazement. Incredible insight! Everyone was visibly moved by the message. Not me. I sat there, stoically. "It's not God's economy". That was it. I didn't care.

I had a reflexive, anti-thought program, still functioning in me, years after physically leaving the WLMCPGN. I couldn't read the Bible without an invisible "responsible one" leaning over my shoulder and whispering in my ear, what was good, and why, and what should be ignored or waved away as irrelevant.

And I came in as a church-going college student, who got recruited into the WLMCPGN because ''there is something more". I hadn't been prepped in Christianity for the zeal and the non-thought and the sloganeering. I never knew what hit me, and it took years afterward to begin to appreciate how much it had hit me.

Now, imagine you grew up in that, were never allowed other sources of information, that thinking was rebellious, that questioning was from God's enemy, that "Hear no evil, see no evil" was how to stay in the glorious church life, even when evil was obvious to all, and if you left you were a dropout and a failure and God was going to put you in a dark place. When I left, I had something to fall back on, imperfect as it was. The LC kids have no such resources, and have been drilled that any such resources are enemy territory.

Imagine, trying to create your humanity after that, when you were never given a chance at humanity in the first place. I daresay we should be generous with such ones. Give them space to find themselves. Wherever they are, that's where they are. Let them be there, today, it's okay.

Originally Posted by Nell

So you think this forum is a "magnet" for airing grievances about something and a place for people to complain?

This forum is a safe place for wounded believers to come and say what they need to say. We try to help them...not pass judgment on them for being "negative". Suffering abuse IS negative.

Why are you here?

Nell

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Originally Posted by ExChurchKid

the brainwashing takes the power to dissent and think critically away from us. There is no escape, we learn. We are rebellious and wanting to leave is our natural sinful nature coming out. This is drilled into us. Sometimes it takes all the way through college and even grad school to experience the outside world enough to realize something is wrong. Then it takes therapy to overcome the brainwashing...

Originally Posted by jigsaw44

Q. What was the breaking point of you LC kids. It breaks my heart to see y'all still inflicted after all these years. I know LC parents are super strict with kids in regards to socializing and activities like sports or entertainment. But what exactly would you LC kids say is the biggest source of pain and torment for LC kids growing up. Is it the constant berating of how "wOrLdLy" things are how sinful every little thing is? Or perhaps witness doctrine being ingrained into your mind? What exactly is the source of all this pain from LC kids? It truly breaks my heart and only share if you want to. Im just appalled of how terrible some of you are still feeling from the LC after all these years. What in the heck was the factor that led to all this misery?

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

I figured you'd reply to that! But the kind of contact you mention above is random, and therefore the results would be more random and accurate. But if you set something up to air grievances about something, that's pretty much what you get, right? At least that'll be the predominance of responses. There's also been several studies done about the proportion of people that complain verses those that have had a good experience, and the ratio of people who will talk about bad experiences is much, much higher than those who've had voice good experiences. In other words, this forum is something of a magnet for LC related grievances.*

With that said, I do, sincerely, appreciate the openness of this forum! Thanks for your service . . .

(*and do I need to put my quasi-legal disclaimer on here again that I'm not "all in the tank for the LC"? )

Originally Posted by HERn

God-Men socks might pair well with holy underwear.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_garment

Originally Posted by Nell

For a complete account of the Harvest House lawsuit look here.

It was around this time (2005) that I/we discovered the existence of God-Men socks being worn by those brothers who we can only imagine, had "arrived". Yes. God-Men socks. The mind boggles.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

So my experience is if you say something negative about the LC on here, you'll probably get 10 people confirming that experience. If you say something remotely good about the LC, maybe one person will agree.

Originally Posted by Nell

3. In December of 1980, Witness Lee, William Freeman, and the Recovery church in Anaheim filed a lawsuit against the author of The God-Men, the Swiss publisher of the German version of the book, and Spiritual Counterfeits Project (SCP). SCP could not defend themselves in court due to the extensive financial obligations of the lawsuit. This forced SCP into bankruptcy. SCP was removed from the lawsuit (apologeticsindex.org).

Originally Posted by ExChurchKid

I agree, cults are on a spectrum. I'm not sure I agree with the halo effect thing. In any case, I'm looking for like minded people who see the LC as damaging, who can sympathize with being forced into it, and who want to do something about it. I don't think there's any good the Recovery can do that would outweigh the damage it does.

Originally Posted by ExChurchKid

While I do agree with the general sentiment that the Lord's Recovery isn't a kool-aid drinking type cult, I also think that the damage it does to kids raised by parents in the organization is often overlooked. Being forced to grow up in the local churches left me with anxiety, depression, and a severe lack of close friends and family. The Recovery isolates, shames, and controls, especially the kids. Those are aspects of a cult.

Originally Posted by jigsaw44

The Local Churches definitely are a personality cult- who obsess and idolize the man named- Witness Lee.

Originally Posted by Nell

I had a habit of downloading threads from the other forum. I thought that the history should be preserved in case something happened to the Bereans Forum. Something happened and all that history is gone...except what I downloaded and saved. Maybe others downloaded too...I don't know. Included are threats made against the churches in the midwest and the Titus Chu quarantine.

I've attached the chronology thread as titled above. Most of the links are likely broken. I haven't checked them all but I'm not hopeful. I didn't compile this list but downloaded it from somewhere.

Nell

Originally Posted by Nell

anyone remember Bilbodog...

Originally Posted by jigsaw44

If the local churches are fine with this and accept the fact that they are a small bubble of loonies- then let them have at it. The vain repetition of amen and calling to the lord, idolizing man, extreme legalism to the point of counter productive growth, heresy in relations to doctrine/scripture- they can keep all these things and have the few people with them willing to put up with it. As for all the forms of abuses and control they have over peoples lives- Im sorry for the people who had to suffer this. I recently have a close brother/friend who is experiencing an attempt over the most important aspect of his life and he is not taking it well and is trying to figure out his place in life due to all this. Outside of heresy- the actions the LC commits in regards to peoples livelihood is repugnant and comes as a runner up in the many things wrong with the LC.

Originally Posted by Nell

All--

You should find this article from the Houston Chronicle, April 30, 1977 interesting. It details the account of a deprogramming session of Joyce Daly, 20, who was attending the Church in Houston and was snatched away by her parents and deprogrammed.

Nell

Originally Posted by awareness

But do we all agree that the local church is a cult?

Originally Posted by awareness

But do we all agree that the local church is a cult?

Originally Posted by Nell

So technically, Witness Lee and Bill Freeman did not "win" the lawsuit. The judge ruled in the Recovery's favor because they defaulted; Neil Duddy and SCP were defunded and run out of business and could not defend their cause of action...they could not speak. It should be noted that eventually, Bill Freeman left the Local Church.

Originally Posted by ExChurchKid

I don't really understand the point you're trying to make, but yes, I would happily sue my parents, if I could find a lawyer to take the case. Anyways, I think we're going down a bit of a nebulous rabbit hole here.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Think about it. Who would you sue? Your own family?

Originally Posted by ExChurchKid

I...find that hard to believe. Why not include that in the libel suit? It's a little far fetched for there to not be a record of it.

Originally Posted by Ohio

There were a number of people in Ohio who were basically "kidnapped" by so-called "de-programmers" who were paid by their families. I was told they learned their techniques from the military. When they returned, they were badly shaken up, kind of like PTSD.

Originally Posted by ExChurchKid

What do you mean hijacked and deprogrammed? How were they never the same? In what way did you lose everything? Sorry, I don't mean to interrogate! I'm curious as to your experience, as someone who was alive at the time.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Some of us lived thru that lawsuit in the aftermath of the Jonestown massacre, so we supported the lawsuits. The tension surrounding the LC, and that was back in the day when the LC's had meetings full of the Spirit, was almost unbearable for some. The books had the families of the saints just spooked. A number of young people were hijacked and "deprogrammed." Many were never the same. It's hard to compare today to then. While I disagree with lawsuits against Christians, some of us lost everything due to those books.

Originally Posted by ExChurchKid

Anyways, what are your thoughts?