Originally Posted by Nell

I’m not crediting anyone or anything but God for that which is good, but you made my point for me. You were led of the Lord, not “the recovery”. The miracle was His doing, not “the recovery”. The Lord showed you...He preserved you...this is what He does. He put you where he wanted you so he could do his work in you. Was that because of where you were (the recovery) or because of his Sovereignty?

Whatever good exists is because He is good. I’m providing perspective to your balance.

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

So sorry for those who suffered and continue to suffer through the legalism and controlling reigns of the LR. May God give them the Grace and Strength, the Wisdom and Insight to throw out the dirty bathwater but not JESUS.

Remember JESUS will never leave you or forsake you and He makes all things new.

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

My intention here is to provide a little balance to the overwhelming amount of posts that are completely on the negative side concerning all things LC.

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

So I don't know if that addressed your question at all regarding the building. Please let me know. If you want, I can post a short paper I wrote on the above topic (Body, Bride & Building), with scriptural references - it was an awesome revelation!

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

To recap, here are the good things I've put forth that I consider the LC to have promoted (again, not necessarily originated by the LC):

1. Open meetings - encouraging all to function
I wasn't speaking specifically about the LC. I just enjoy hearing the functiing of all the saints! Take yesterday's meeting in Scottsdale for example. Different ones called songs and shared why they had enjoyed them this week. Then one of the six speaking brothers gave a message on a topic the ekklesia felt was good. Then several shared about what the Lord impressed them with during the meeting and regarding the message. Other experiences/seeings/needs were shared too. Then someone called another song toward the end that they thought pertained well to the message. In closing a sister reminded us of a study they were giving this week, concerning their family's recent trip to Israel. Then we did a potluck with lots of fellowship. Gosh, was that all so enjoyable - I experienced being part of God's family in my spirit! That's the kind of open functioning I'm talking about.

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

In the end this thread had a longer run than I probably expected! (80 posts) I sort of thought that several on here would be vehemently opposed to the idea that *ANY* good thing came out of the "Recovery."

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Define "other believers". Most people use the term to mean "different believers", where "different" refers to their denominational persuasion, but there is only one kind of believer. I use it to mean any other believer. I meet with any believer.

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Okay . . . Do you meet with other believers then, or am I misreading this?

Originally Posted by Evangelical

So the reason for meeting by locality is because there is no other excuse one may give for not meeting with other believers. Now some may take this opportunity to say that those in the recovery should join a denomination but a denomination is not the default, normal, locality-grounded place for meeting but rather a faction. They are the ones who have the non-locality based excuse for not meeting with other believers.

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

O-tay, back to this.

Because everything else shifts (creeds, doctrines, people, etc.), but the church in Jerusalem is just that - simple. But then when that becomes just another doctrine (as has been discussed on here ad nauseum squared), it certainly can be just another divisive thing. Been there. Done that. Wore out and outgrew that t-shirt.

But it was still a really nice t-shirt for a time . . . but even really nice t-shirts fail (1 Cor 3:8). So I gave it up to seek the perfect thing.

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

I remember reading a book I got so much enjoyment in my spirit from - and an incredible amount of grace (the most pleasurable aspect of grace - bubbling up from deep in my spirit). It was called the "Speciality, Generality & Practicality of the Church Life" by Witness Lee (1983). In fact, I can't recall being graced by any other book, apart from the Bible, more than this one! It showed how one we really are. This book talked about how to not focus on the minor doctrinal points and differences between believers - and, of course, there's a lot of them! The Lord spoke this to me in a way I could never forget --- most all Christian divisions are silly and vain works of the flesh. Lee said the only things we should hold firm to, with others, were just the key things of our faith, such as Christ's divinity; Him and His atoning work being the One Way; the Bible being the Word of God, etc. All else should be laid aside to not stumble a brother and to keep the oneness (that is, we should be very general about these noncritical things).

I just dug up my old coffee-stained copy of this book and quickly leafed through it again. I see nothing about the need to doggedly hold to a "one church - one city" doctrine as a central article of our faith. So, while I think OCOC is a sound principle illustrated in the NT, and I thank God for it, I don't think anyone should hold to it as a key article of their Christian faith - lest they cause a division by it.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I see it like this - in each city, there is one church. So in practice, there should be one church, in each city.

The one body, or one loaf on the table principle, is one principle yes. But think about what one body means in practice, and how it relates to one church per city. Why is it per city, why not per one Creed or other thing?

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I know the answer, but many people don't. Maybe Drake knows, Sons to Glory maybe. If you understand the principle, the one church per city idea will make sense. If you don't get the principle, it won't make sense.

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

I love to eat with the whole group! How did the early church do it?

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Another good thing is the love feast although I never have seen it practiced in the same way as the early church.

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

So now we've listed three good things to come out of The Recovery (even though they may not have been the originator) and we've got off on a few "interesting" discussions around them . . .

Here's what we have so far:

1. Open meetings - encouraging all to function
2. The Emphasis on the Indwelling Christ
3. Calling on the name of the Lord

Here's my fourth, which may set off a real flurry of discussion:

4. Taking in the Pure Milk of the Word

I was considering this last item in my morning time today. To me drinking the pure milk of the word is about getting nourishment - not just some mental education. The Recovery wasn't the first to talk about taking the word in by prayer. And I'll certainly admit some of the corporate pray-reading times I've experienced were often quite mechanical. But I'm talking about reading a verse and then talking to the Lord about it (out loud when possible).

There are many references in scripture about engaging our mouths with the word of God. Something happens when we begin to pray, speak His word and sing out loud. It isn't about memorizing (which isn't bad) or just gaining knowledge (which isn't bad), but something that actually nourishes us and builds us up in spirit.

I am thankful for this!

Originally Posted by awareness

Whoa! Wow! Me too! I feel my spirit led me out of the LC. I didn't know all the reasons why. I actually knew very little.

It took me years, decades, to discover the reasons for leaving. And I'm still learning.

That line, quoted above, was deep brother. Thanks.

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Originally Posted by Ohio

Mistakes? Hey, I agree that everyone is entitled to a few "mistakes." But we are not talking about inadvertent "mistakes," but we are discussing carefully planned stratagems at LSM to deceive God's people, coverup crimes, and smear the reputations of those whose only "crime" is to speak their conscience in order to protect the children of God. Read John Ingalls book "Speaking the Truth in Love."

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

It is certainly a supreme irony, isn't it!? I remember in the 1980s some mussing whether or not we might ever fall into the Laodacien thing - having supposed riches (and we knew we had the riches!), yet being poor, blind and naked. We thought long and hard on it for maybe 5 seconds and said, "Nah!"

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

It is certainly a supreme irony, isn't it!? I remember in the 1980s some mussing whether or not we might ever fall into the Laodacien thing - having supposed riches (and we knew we had the riches!), yet being poor, blind and naked. We thought long and hard on it for maybe 5 seconds and said, "Nah!"

Originally Posted by Ohio

This is one of the most amazing things about the LC experience -- we did learn much from the Bible about following the Lord, but it was what we learned which caused us to leave the LC.

Concerning the "work of ministry," many of us were helped by Nee's book The Normal Christian Churchlife. Yet when I reread that book with the other brothers in the church, I was shocked by how far removed the practices of LSM and many LC's were from both the New Testament pattern and Nee's more detailed instructions! According to Nee's teachings, supposedly our handbook for churchlife ministry, in many regards we were worse than the denominations!

We were not the first to learn this. Many others have compared Nee's book to the practices of Lee and the Blendeds today. One story I heard was Lee's comment when confronted with these gross discrepancies -- "Don't tell me about Nee's book, I was there!"

Originally Posted by JJ

I agree with those three things and wish they were more prevalent in Christian circles. For me learning the leading of the Holy Spirit in my human spirit. Another was relying on the written word of God in the Holy Bible as the ultimate authority of God's truth. But both of those also ultimately led me out because the Recovery replaced both with the Living Stream Ministry

Originally Posted by JJ

I agree with those three things and wish they were more prevalent in Christian circles. For me learning the leading of the Holy Spirit in my human spirit. Another was relying on the written word of God in the Holy Bible as the ultimate authority of God's truth. But both of those also ultimately led me out because the Recovery replaced both with the Living Stream Ministry

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Here are the two things we've listed so far, regarding good things to be promoted by the LC:

1. Open meetings - encouraging all to function
2. The Emphasis on the Indwelling Christ

So here's a third - Calling on the name of the Lord

Again, this doesn't mean the LC was necessarily the originator of the idea or practice, or that there weren't abuses and degradation from the idea. It just means that it was something they strongly promoted

"When you call you get the person of that Name!"

Calling on the name of the Lord has been something really saving in my life. Wherever I go or whatever I find myself in, I can call His name to myself or out loud. The word tells us that to breath the name of Jesus is a function of the Holy Spirit, and I am here to attest this is true! This fact is found in a number of places in the NT, Psalms and elsewhere. "Whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved." There is no time limit and no shelf life to this.

The Lord had me out in the middle of the desert drying out for a few years. When I returned to consistent fellowship (here in Scottsdale) He showed me that while I thought I was totally in the toilet during that time, I still had not completely denied His name. That is, I would still occasionally sigh, "Lord Jesus" in a calling way to Him. He let me know that He heard me and saved me!

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Well alrighty then . . . back to the topic. So I've listed three items I think were good things to come out of the LC hootenanny.

Anyone have something they want to say about those or add something of their own?

(I'm trying to "have good luck with that")

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Brothers - just calling it as I see it. Too much of a "good thing" is still too much.

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Question: When does trying to prove something become an accusation, and is there really a difference (some may want to debate this too!)?

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Question: When does trying to prove something become an accusation, and is there really a difference (some may want to debate this too!)?

So much of this forum is devoted to enumerating the sins of the Recovery. Sure, it is in the name of "getting the truth out" and perhaps some understanding and maybe healing. But at some point - what is the point? Do we just become another accuser of the brethren?

Yes, so many mistakes were made. Authority and central control (overt & covert) got out of control. Okay, fine. Where is Christ!? Is He going over and over all the finer points, ad nauseum, of our sins? No.

As for me, I feel to move on from sin consciousness . . .

Originally Posted by UntoHim

I would replace your term "accusation" with another word: "try". As mature Christians we are not called to accuse, per se, but we are called to try, to test and to discern. "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world." (1 John 4:1) "But have tested those who call themselves apostles and are not, and found them to be false." (Revelation 2:2)

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

But the Lord checks him each time he starts to do this and he has little appetite for it. We discussed how after reading about these things at length or being in long discussions with someone about the sins of the LC and WL, we are just deadened in spirit. (although the flesh may get all worked up)

So of course all things are lawful, but not all things are profitable for building up. Is the end result love for our brothers or a critical spirit that wants to make our point?

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

When does trying to prove something become an accusation, and is there really a difference?

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Question: When does trying to prove something become an accusation, and is there really a difference (some may want to debate this too!)?

So much of this forum is devoted to enumerating the sins of the Recovery. Sure, it is in the name of "getting the truth out" and perhaps some understanding and maybe healing. But at some point - what is the point? Do we just become another accuser of the brethren?

Yes, so many mistakes were made. Authority and central control (overt & covert) got out of control. Okay, fine. Where is Christ!? Is He going over and over all the finer points, ad nauseum, of our sins? No.

As for me, I feel to move on from sin consciousness . . .

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Read almost any LSM document or attend almost any LSM approved meeting. You'll hear condemnation of Christians. The Christian churches that I've attended or been a part of have not made condemnation of the Catholic church the center of their messaging (actually quite far from it). The Gospel of Witness Lee is based on an active condemnation of believers.

The LSM is so whacky that without a drumbeat of how bad and scary Christianity is (those poor, poor, people) - they wouldn't be able to keep the doors open. True Christianity points to Scripture and the message of Jesus.

I saw this first hand for an entire year - the LSM propaganda machine led by elders, those deceived by FTTA, and those born into the LSM lead the charge. But I had tasted and seen the Lord - my eyes were open. I gave the LSM churches a chance to show me their light, but found that behind those doors is lifeless, full of confusion, and lacking the beauty of Christ and His Spirit. I'm not writing to convince you of anything Evangelical, I'm afraid it is beyond that point. Feel free to have the last word.

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Read almost any LSM document or attend almost any LSM approved meeting. You'll hear condemnation of Christians. The Christian churches that I've attended or been a part of have not made condemnation of the Catholic church the center of their messaging (actually quite far from it). The Gospel of Witness Lee is based on an active condemnation of believers.

The LSM is so whacky that without a drumbeat of how bad and scary Christianity is (those poor, poor, people) - they wouldn't be able to keep the doors open. True Christianity points to Scripture and the message of Jesus.

I saw this first hand for an entire year - the LSM propaganda machine led by elders, those deceived by FTTA, and those born into the LSM lead the charge. But I had tasted and seen the Lord - my eyes were open. I gave the LSM churches a chance to show me their light, but found that behind those doors is lifeless, full of confusion, and lacking the beauty of Christ and His Spirit. I'm not writing to convince you of anything Evangelical, I'm afraid it is beyond that point. Feel free to have the last word.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

If your statement "The “recovery” doesn’t work without condemning other Christians. " is true, then the Gospel tract the recovery uses is a long list of condemnations of Christianity. The Gospel tract has never included any condemnations of Christianity, thus disproving your statement.

Originally Posted by leastofthese

So in your narrative you extrapolate an active condemnation of the Catholic Church as a core tenant (maybe the most important?) message of the Gospel and the work of Jesus on the cross. If that line of thinking were true, the core message of an Evangelical Gospel tract (not sure why you used a Gospel tract as your example...) is a long list of condemnations rather than the reality of scriptures and the work of Jesus on the cross. Your Gospel of Lee has it backwards - so it should be no surprise that the Witness Lee churches lack fruit and are a dying apart from the tree. Our creator offers so much more, why clinch so tightly to the words of the man Witness Lee?

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Protestantism, as the name implies (to protest), does not exist without condemning (protesting against) Catholicism.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Protestantism, as the name implies (to protest), does not exist without condemning (protesting against) Catholicism.
The narrative behind Protestantism is that the Roman Catholic church is not the one true church established by Christ founded on Peter the apostle. That "Catholicism is wrong" is implied every time an evangelical gives someone a gospel tract as opposed to directing them to their nearest Catholic Priest.

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

abolish - kat-al-oo'-o

From G2596 and G3089; to loosen down (disintegrate), that is, (by implication) to demolish (literally or figuratively); specifically (compare G2646) to halt for the night: - destroy, dissolve, be guest, lodge, come to nought, overthrow, throw down.

How would the Gospel not work without condemning Catholicism? What about countries where there is no Catholicism present? Is there no Christianity? I'm not sure what you're trying to communicate here Evangelical.

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I agree that the focus on the indwelling Christ is an important recovery.
This focus has two parts:
a) Christ lives in us and not just in heaven - this helps with intimacy and relating to the Lord as one man to another.
b) the Spirit living in us is not "a different spirit" but the Lord Himself as the Spirit - this helps with understanding that the Spirit is not some mysterious or impersonal power that might either work a strange "gold dust" miracle or strike us dead any moment, but truly a Comforter. The name Jesus is truly the name of the Father, the name of the Son, and the name of the Spirit.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Protestantism/evangelicalism doesn't work without condemning Catholicism. And Catholicism doesn't work without condemning Judaism (see the history).

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Okay, since this is a thread of good things to come out of the Recovery, let's get back to that!

So what about the Recovery's focus on the indwelling Christ? Again, I know they didn't invent this (since it is perhaps THE central theme of the New Covenant) and are not the only ones so focused. But, as said, 95% of what I hear out there seems to be a version of Christianity via Judaism.

Originally Posted by leastofthese

The “recovery” doesn’t work without condemning other Christians. It is a pillar or foundation of Lee’s ministry. They are not set apart by demonstrating the fruit of the Spirit or the works of their “ministry”, but instead, by considering themselves over Poor, Poor, Christianity. We saw Drake point to some Beyoncé service or Joel Osteen church that hosted a secular performance group - clearly insulated from reality.

Originally Posted by Drake

Good luck with that.

Originally Posted by Drake

Good luck with that.

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Okay, since this is a thread of good things to come out of the Recovery, let's get back to that!

Originally Posted by leastofthese

The “recovery” doesn’t work without condemning other Christians. It is a pillar or foundation of Lee’s ministry. They are not set apart by demonstrating the fruit of the Spirit or the works of their “ministry”, but instead, by considering themselves over Poor, Poor, Christianity.

Originally Posted by Ohio

It just shows you how insulated they are from any contact with the real world. All they know about other Christian churches are the cheap comments drummed into them for years. Is this not the very definition of prejudice and stereotyping?

Originally Posted by Kevin

Hasty generalization!

Here in Grace Baptist Church, we have cell groups where everyone has the opportunity to share from their studies and meditations on the scripture. And everyone are encouraged to evangelize the lost. You err to generalize every Christian groups with clergy-laity system!

Originally Posted by Evangelical

If everyone has the opportunity to share, then that is not a clergy-laity system.

But if everyone is lazy and looks to one person in the group to do most of the speaking, essentially they look up to that person as a "clergy". That's how it starts. It parallels the situation in Israel when they wanted a king to rule over them. They basically wanted to hand over their spiritual responsibilities to others, and those who wish to control others are more than happy to oblige under the guise of them being "unable" or doing a "poor job".

Originally Posted by Evangelical

This happens because people don't read their morning revivals and Bible at home during the week, they come to the meeting and expect others who have to fill in their knowledge gaps. This is no different really to a person in the denominations going to church on a Sunday to listen to the priest and never reading their devotionals and bible at home.

Originally Posted by Kevin

Hasty generalization!

Here in Grace Baptist Church, we have cell groups where everyone has the opportunity to share from their studies and meditations on the scripture. And everyone are encouraged to evangelize the lost. You err to generalize every Christian groups with clergy-laity system!

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Are you defining a clergy-laity system based on a meeting format or as the practice of a church body? I guess I could google it.

I regularly participate with a group of believers from different “denominations” where we sit in a circle, break bread and people are free to share a word, hymn, song, praise, etc. This is much different than at the LSM churches, where most everyone regurgitates LSM approves materials. In an attempt for some appearance of authenticity, my LSM locality was “training” people not to read directly from the LSM material. It was too blatantly obvious what was going on and they wanted people to stick to the script, but not to directly read. This carries over into home meetings too... so sad!

They also mentioned this at the training in Anaheim, so I assume this is true throughout. Those who are skilled in regurgitating Witness Lee in their own words get extra Amen’s.

Originally Posted by Kevin

Hasty generalization!

Here in Grace Baptist Church, we have cell groups where everyone has the opportunity to share from their studies and meditations on the scripture. And everyone are encouraged to evangelize the lost. You err to generalize every Christian groups with clergy-laity system!

Originally Posted by Evangelical

You mentioned rote and only certain saints allowed to say certain things, that is a liturgical clergy-laity system. If only one person is speaking they have become "clergy" to the ones who don't speak who are the "laity". The clergy-laity system evolves from a majority of members not wanting or able to speak or a few members imposing rules that only one or two can speak. The format of the meetings encourages everyone to speak but if that does not happen it becomes a clergy-laity meeting.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

You mentioned rote and only certain saints allowed to say certain things, that is a liturgical clergy-laity system. If only one person is speaking they have become "clergy" to the ones who don't speak who are the "laity". The clergy-laity system evolves from a majority of members not wanting or able to speak or a few members imposing rules that only one or two can speak. The format of the meetings encourages everyone to speak but if that does not happen it becomes a clergy-laity meeting.

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Originally Posted by Evangelical

You mentioned rote and only certain saints allowed to say certain things, that is a liturgical clergy-laity system. If only one person is speaking they have become "clergy" to the ones who don't speak who are the "laity". The clergy-laity system evolves from a majority of members not wanting or able to speak or a few members imposing rules that only one or two can speak. The format of the meetings encourages everyone to speak but if that does not happen it becomes a clergy-laity meeting.

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Not sure what you mean by your first statement - can you clarify?

Originally Posted by Evangelical

If only one person does the speaking that is the clergy-laity system so that should be discouraged.

Another good thing is the use of the (same) Bible in the meetings, and also a very good bible that is even used outside of the recovery. In denominations I was tired of pastors uses watered down versions like "the message" and spinning that into some story about social justice or whatever feel-good message they wanted to preach.