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08-22-2023 06:19 AM

Nell

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by ACuriousFellow

I've stumbled upon this thread while searching for information on this forum regarding Houston and Andrea McArdle.

My heart goes out to those brave enough to share their testimony here.

I'm not certain how to support such people. I know there are sisters in my locality who suffer in that denomination known as The Lord's Recovery. They are depressed and weak and find no nourishment in Witness Lee's so-called "Ministry of the Age."

I have a deep-seated fear because one teenage sister in particular has apparently experienced something deeply traumatic in recent years. She showed many outward signs in her appearance, speech, and mannerisms, and then her mother informed me that something terrible had indeed happened but that she would not share the details in order to protect her daughter.

After finding out about this history of abuse and covering-up in Witness Lee's sect known as The Local Churches, I can't help but tremble at the thought that she may have gone through something similar.

I simply don't know how to help, and it drives me mad. Even when I was in it I did not know how to help, much less now that I have left.

Suggestions:

Consider encouraging the one you're so concerned about, possibly through the mother, to seek professional counseling.

If you know the mother well enough, consider referring her to this forum topic, if only to let them know they are not alone.

As noted in the original post, sexual abuse is a crime.

At some point the issue may present itself that "protecting her daughter" may also be "protecting 'the church'".

I hope this helps.
Nell

08-19-2023 01:48 PM

ACuriousFellow

Re: Whistleblower

01-20-2023 08:44 AM

Nell

Whistleblower - Blowing the whistle on abusers in the Local Church

Bringing this forward again. There is a tremendous amount of information, including first-hand accounts about the abuse occurring in the LC Leadership. It began with Witness Lee himself when he covered up his son Philip's behavior.

Another topic to review is "What's going on in OKC".

From the "ChurchKid" video, we see the pattern continues in epidemic proportions.

Nell

01-08-2021 08:16 AM

Awoken

Re: Whistleblower

[Hm.. removing this for now, so as not to take focus off the things being spoken of. Suffice it to say I sympathize, at least to some degree, with the victims of these wrongdoings.]

03-19-2019 12:32 PM

JLBW

Re: Whistleblower

Thanks nell!
I'll let God be the final judge. It's time for my family to move on. Besides I'm almost positive that men involved in this cover up are aware of how I feel now that I've posted it on this DB. They know that I feel they should do the honorable thing and repay us for the cost of their cover up. I'll let God be the judge between us. He's very good at being God!
May God bless all of you on here and keep us all going on in spite of our wounds and suffering. Please pray for my family as we are all still working on healing.

03-15-2019 04:21 AM

Nell

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by JLBW

Quote:

Originally Posted by JLBW

I'm a professional counselor so I'm not going to get baited into anything that would put me in the public eye. I'm pretty private actually. So I will need to be careful and allow the Lord to lead. But I'm not getting pushed around any more either. You all have been so gracious and kind. The Lord is alive and well in the saints!

JLBW, you know what you're doing. If you think a formal announcement is appropriate, I trust your judgment. You were assaulted by an elder. You were bullied into silence, now you are being quarantined by gossipmongers ... for what? NOT speaking out?

You might consider writing your statement, that every word be established. First read it to the criminal, and his wife. This is scriptural. Record your meeting, tell them it’s being recorded. If he doesn’t make it right with you and your family, to your satisfaction, take the next step. If you follow Matthew 18:15-17, the next step would be to go and take with you witnesses. Next is "tell it to the church". There is a Witness Lee/LC perpetrated myth out there that "tell it to the church" means "tell it to the elders". Not true. Telling the elders only is an invitation for covering sin...as we have seen ad nauseaum.

"Tell it to the church" means TELL IT TO THE CHURCH. Tell the faithful. Tell those who could be effected by the sin of others. "The church" is not restricted to a geographical location. If there are two locations effected by the sinning brother, there is no reason they should not be included.

For elders, it's worse:

I Timothy 5:19-21 Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses. 20 But those elders who are sinning you are to reprove before everyone, so that the others may take warning. 21 I charge you, in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels, to keep these instructions without partiality, and to do nothing out of favoritism.

You've already done this. One elder abused you, and another bunch abused you by their sinful cowardice.

The sinning elder should be the one making a formal announcement. That would be a start. It’s his mess to clean up. He is responsible, along with those cowards who covered it up. Don’t make any threats. You don’t need to. If he can’t figure out what he should do, that’s his problem. What you do shouldn’t be contingent on what he does, or doesn’t do. If you give him an ultimatum, he could use it against you. Don't give him or the cowards anything they could use against you.

Just my thoughts...

Nell

03-14-2019 03:41 PM

JLBW

Re: Whistleblower

03-14-2019 12:11 PM

Ohio

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by JLBW

Like Igzy said, be wise as a serpent, JLBW. Seek wise counsel, and make sure your close friends and support system are on board. Pray much, that the Lord gives you clear leading. Do so as a part of your own healthy journey in the Lord, and not as retaliation.

If God is for us, whom shall we fear? And if the Lord allowed King David, a man after His own heart, to be exposed for every one else in history to see and to learn, then none of us can hide in the darkness with some "fig leaf" covering.

03-14-2019 10:25 AM

Cal

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by JLBW

Thank you brother! I believe my marriage will survive now that we left but it was really hard while we were meeting. Here's a song I found thanks to this DB where people share hymns.
https://youtu.be/8mrhPqeQRgI
You are correct Im a fighter!

03-14-2019 10:05 AM

JLBW

Re: Whistleblower

03-14-2019 08:38 AM

Cal

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by JLBW

There you go. The other shoe drops. Quarantined for sharing and responding to the truth about being abused. That's "the Lord's Recovery" for you. Where down is up and up is down. How could such a place ever seriously make the claim of being "God's best."

From what I've seen of you, sister, you have a strength and confidence that is impressive. I think that and your faith will get you through just fine. Life throws us bewildering curve balls. I recently went through a quite unexpected divorce. I have two teenagers. Traumatic doesn't even begin to describe it. But I have learned, like never before, how God can cause bad things to work for good. That he will do if we just keep trusting and give it all back to him.

But at least you can be clear that this group, for all the good things there, is nothing special, and in fact has many problems which should lead Christians to avoid it. Take the good with you, including any friendships you can maintain. Leave the bad behind. Be positive and forward-looking. Walk in freedom. Be big-hearted. But... remain as wise as a serpent.

Great song, too!

03-14-2019 08:15 AM

JLBW

Re: Whistleblower

I'm not sure if posting here had anything to do with what is happening in our life right now but we left our LC recently but last night we learned of gossip and are now being quarantined.....for leaving due to sexual abuse that we kept covered except for sharing with a few trusted friends. I guess it's time to make a formal announcement!?
Thankfully we are out but this song came to mind last night and I wanted to share

"Welcome to the Hotel California
Such a lovely place (such a lovely place)
Such a lovely face.
They livin' it up at the Hotel California
What a nice surprise (what a nice surprise), bring your alibis

Mirrors on the ceiling,
The pink champagne on ice
And she said, 'we are all just prisoners here, of our own device'
And in the master's chambers,
They gathered for the feast
They stab it with their steely knives,
But they just can't kill the beast

Last thing I remember, I was
Running for the door
I had to find the passage back to the place I was before
'Relax' said the night man,
'We are programmed to receive.
You can check out any time you like,
But you can never leave!'

03-14-2019 07:34 AM

Cal

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

What teaching could create such a dangerous system as the Recovery? Deputy authority. The teaching that one man on earth in every age stood in place of God to rule over others. Such a man alone had the oracle of God, and such a man alone was above reproach, the recovery's version of "the infallibility of the Pope." A recipe for abuse and corruption. The license to abuse others and personally escape all culpability. With these ingredients, abuse happens every time. With the Lee family, it was happening all the time.

Yes, the potential for corruption is built into the model. I've made the point before that corruption is inevitable in church group that operates under the deputy authority model, because (1) such power corrupts and, (2) once the corruption starts, the model must cover it up and destroy whistleblowers to preserve the image of the deputy authority, which the model needs to continue. So the very preservation of the model itself ensures someone is going to get run over.

In the LR, this is just part of the routine. Everyone there is either ignorant of it or in denial about it.

03-14-2019 06:59 AM

Ohio

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

In the LC we were told to "take Christ as our person", but instead we got a persona, an act, covering a man-made system that invited abuse, up to and including sexual abuse. Everything was for the system, which was deemed sacrosanct. In this the LC was no different from the RCC, Miramax, or PSU Football. Evil men abused the system, and "system men" (and women) abetted their abuses.

Constantly in the system we were indoctrinated that the "ministry was for the churches," but all the evidence was to the contrary. When the Midwest received anonymous mailings of chaos in Anaheim, we were all told by TC, "shame on those elders," and the "mistakes of my spiritual father are none of my business." But who stood up for righteousness? And who asked the Lord what we should do?

We were indoctrinated in a system watching all the brothers regularly rebuked by the "master," both in Anaheim and Cleveland. Yet simultaneously we were warned that the master was never to be critiqued. Remember what happened to Noah's son? Cursed. Remember what happened to Moses' sister? Leprosy.

What teaching could create such a dangerous system as the Recovery? Deputy authority. The teaching that one man on earth in every age stood in place of God to rule over others. Such a man alone had the oracle of God, and such a man alone was above reproach, the recovery's version of "the infallibility of the Pope." A recipe for abuse and corruption. The license to abuse others and personally escape all culpability. With these ingredients, abuse happens every time. With the Lee family, it was happening all the time.

Never forget that abuse breeds more abuse. Brothers abused then abuse others. I've seen it. I've lived it. I'm guilty too. Apostle Paul, on the contrary, was gentle towards all, as a nursing mother, night and day with tears. Examples of his love for the saints are sprinkled throughout the N.T. Never forget that love breeds more love. Brothers loved then love others.

Regarding the abuses suffered in the Recovery, it's amazing how a little sunshine could have healed us by exposing the sin. This has always been my biggest complaint about Witness Lee. It's one thing to have rotten kids, it's another thing to let them damage the children of God. Lee not only let "the damage" run wild, but he would smear the reputations of any and all whistleblowers. Then for months in the aftermath we would be instructed how evil these whistleblowers were, and how Lee himself was brutally "victimized." Disgusting! Just disgusting!

03-14-2019 02:53 AM

aron

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

I'd add to the list of sinful behavior by these elders: cowardice, ambition and idol worship of Witness Lee.

Nell

In the LC we were told to "take Christ as our person", but instead we got a persona, an act, covering a man-made system that invited abuse, up to and including sexual abuse. Everything was for the system, which was deemed sacrosanct. In this the LC was no different from the RCC, Miramax, or PSU Football. Evil men abused the system, and "system men" (and women) abetted their abuses.

The "Christ" of the LC didn't care for the poor, often denigrated women, didn't care for righteousness ("we don't care about right and wrong, but about 'life'"), was all about man-pleasing, and was only interested in the scripture inasmuch as it could be used as a prop for the system.

The person of the Bible is Jesus. He would never do this stuff, he would never condone this stuff, he would never look the other way and pretend. Never. No chance.

He hung out with sinners, which shocked many, but he himself was righteous, compassionate, giving, and holy. He would not and could not participate in schemes of deceit and treachery. He was full of respect (love, compassion, care) for others. None of us match him in full. At best we can faintly reflect him in part. But let's not kid ourselves, and presume to be something we're not.

If we focus on him, and him alone, all other reality will emerge. "Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made" ~John 1:3 NIV

03-13-2019 06:59 PM

Nell

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Sounds more like "man-pleasing" to me.

That too.

And the list goes on...

03-13-2019 04:22 PM

Ohio

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

This is exactly how it's done:

You don't have to read any further. But I would add to the list of sinful behavior by these elders: cowardice, ambition and idol worship of Witness Lee.

Nell

Sounds more like "man-pleasing" to me.

03-13-2019 12:34 PM

Nell

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Igzy

I'm struck as to how the LSM BBs can swing their weight far and wide amongst the LC churches, thumping their chests and overstepping their bounds to discipline and fire elders and shut down churches for perceived infractions--anything from not buying enough printed materials, to speaking unapproved teachings, to using unapproved music. But when a leader sexually abuses a sister, they suddenly fall silent and impotent. No indignation. No chest thumping. No proclamations. No websites. No justice for the injured. Just fecklessness, excuse making and sheepish relocation.

Obviously, Lee set the precedent by trying to cover up his sons sins. So now it's standard practice, the fruit of "follow Lee, right or wrong!" Shameful!

This is exactly how it's done:

Quote:

Hope: #103

Regarding Ben McPhersons immorality, this is the report from a first hand witness: Ray Graver was the first to know. He contacted Benson Phillips who called for an urgent gathering at his home with Ray, Joe Davis of Houston, Don Looper of Austin and Don Rutledge of Dallas. This occurred the morning after Ben was found out. All the brothers there were furious. Don Rutledge angrily declared that they had all been betrayed. All agreed that Ben should be publicly excommunicated and publicly rebuked that all may fear. All agreed that the Lord could not bless the church in Irving due to Ben’s sin. Ben had confessed to Ray that this sin was not a one time thing but had been going on for some time including when he was in Arlington. Ben also admitted that he knew the Church in Arlington had lagged (behind) the other Dallas area churches in blessing due to his sin. At that time, none of these brothers would sympathize with any immorality and especially from an elder or co-worker.

While they were meeting, Witness Lee...

You don't have to read any further. But I would add to the list of sinful behavior by these elders: cowardice, ambition and idol worship of Witness Lee.

Nell

03-13-2019 06:37 AM

Cal

Re: Whistleblower

03-12-2019 08:34 PM

Ohio

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

Harvest House?

Yeah, thanks.

LSM’s unsuccessful litigation against Harvest House regarding the Encyclopedia of Cults & New Religions by John Ankerberg & John Weldon.

03-12-2019 07:42 PM

Nell

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Too bad the all wise Drake could not provide comfort to the Blendeds who got their feelings hurt by Heritage House. Perhaps Drake could have comforted them, and saved the saints all that money when they took their lawsuit all the way to the SCOTUS.

Harvest House?

03-12-2019 05:04 PM

Ohio

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Igzy

"Enablers?"

So, if we support and encourage a sister who has been sexually abused by a religious leader in a domineering religious organization, which we know has indoctrinated its followers (she being one) to be intimidated by and cower from the very thought of challenging said leaders--some of whom are those very sexual abusers!--then it is we who are "enablers?"

But, if said domineering religious movement shuffles around those very sexual abusers and victims like checkers on the grand checkerboard of their whacked-out plan, never punishing the guilty or affording justice to the victims, what are they? Are they not enablers?

I appreciate your soft words to the sister, disingenuous though they may be. But, as usual, you have missed the mountain for the molehill.

03-12-2019 04:55 PM

Nell

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by JLBW

Maybe I should clarify? I'm good Drake. These enablers are helping me to speak out about abuse and that has set me free from a dark and lonely place. They are the real saints of God who have left a system of lawlessness that coversup sin. You have chosen to remain and I'd ask that you do something to protect all the sisters that are still meeting. How do you plan to not be accountable for the sin of your leaders now that you know it's current and ongoing? We all will answer for our choices. My choice to leave is my choice to stand against the sin. I still love the body but I'll never be ok with sin in my midst!
I pray you find the voice to call out the BBs about their complicity with sin. That would be a huge benefit to the LC. Maybe pray about that.
As for me , I'm living untothe Lord. I'm not wallowing in sadness. And no one on this board has discouraged me from that. Much to the contrary❤
Since you didn't want to know details I suppose you feel this has nothing to do with you. But Im not sure how the Lord feels....maybe check with Him. Are you accountable now that you know?

Amen and amen.

Nell

03-12-2019 04:30 PM

JLBW

Re: Whistleblower

03-12-2019 04:11 PM

Nell

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

The heart.

Whose heart?

03-12-2019 03:40 PM

Drake

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

Not bad though....Did you find that with Google?

The heart.

03-12-2019 03:12 PM

Nell

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

JLBW,

I'm here.

The help you seek will not be found by surrounding yourself with enablers who cheer you on to relive your traumatic experience. Neither is there healing in accusing others who would be just as appalled as I am at what happened to you based on your testimony here. Rather, you should trust in the Lord to guide you in the practical steps to heal, and that might include a confrontation.... and sometimes closure can only be had by justice meted out by the authorities that He has set up for that purpose. Sorry, I have no money for you. It is in the courts where personal damage is assessed in monetary terms. If you have the peace before the Lord then pursue that and find a lawyer who operates on a contingency fee if cash flow is an issue.

Do what He tells you. He is the Healer.

Drake

Not bad though....Did you find that with Google?

03-12-2019 03:06 PM

Cal

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

The help you seek will not be found by surrounding yourself with enablers who cheer you on to relive your traumatic experience.

03-12-2019 02:21 PM

Drake

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by JLBW

Oh....anyone know what happened to Drake? I was waiting for that help he offered.....you know, for healing and recompense?? Maybe he's too busy now?��

03-12-2019 01:43 PM

Nell

Re: Whistleblower

I think Drake is too busy now...writing a new book...I heard there's one on its way out. I can only imagine the title. I can't wait.

Nell

03-12-2019 12:56 PM

JLBW

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Igzy

Is there a new LSM book coming out, with a typically turgid LR title like, "The Treacherous, Unjust, Lying Cover-up Consummating in the Oppressed, Victimized and Damaged Sisters"?
That one I would buy! Much better than "The Fermentation of the Present Rebellion!"

I would buy that book!

Thank all of you dear ones for the verses and sharing. You all have said what I've been saying since I was targeted, groomed, and assaulted.
May the Lord continue to heal and cover all the wronged.

Oh....anyone know what happened to Drake? I was waiting for that help he offered.....you know, for healing and recompense?? Maybe he's too busy now?��

03-12-2019 11:27 AM

Nell

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Igzy

Nell, I'm afraid we are going to need some more detail here. I wasn't aware that Ben M. was an "abuser." I thought his issue and that of the elder's wife he had an affair with (I know who she is because I was in Austin) was one of mutual consent. Not good, but not necessarily abuse. Can you clarify please? Thanks.

It’s in the post. Read the red section by Don Rutledge marked 103. This happened 15-20 years before Ben seduced his brother’s wife as you refer to.

03-12-2019 10:32 AM

Cal

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

When someone in a powerful position has an affair with a subordinate staff member, a church member, or an employee, it can be both consensual and abusive.

Ok, I can see that.

03-12-2019 10:25 AM

Ohio

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Igzy

When someone in a powerful position has an affair with a subordinate staff member, a church member, or an employee, it can be both consensual and abusive.

03-12-2019 09:50 AM

Cal

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

03-12-2019 09:40 AM

Cal

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Yet ones like Drake, who claims to stand up in defense of these victims, remains absolutely silent as to the actions of both Witness Lee and the Blendeds during those pathetic times. The level of dishonesty he displays is appalling. Today's Blendeds (BP, MC, RG, MC, etc.) scammed a hoax on the LC's, which was perpetuated for decades.

Drake is a master at focusing on a detail while missing the larger picture (gnats and camels?). He seems to acknowledge that an offense occurred, yet fails to put two and two together and realize that the leadership he so vigorously defends engineered the cover-up for this offense and others! All while they claimed to be the designated caretakers of "the Lord's Recovery."

What is the Lord recovering here? Treachery? Subterfuge? Injustice? Lying? Cover-up? Victimizing? Oppression? Damage?

Is there a new LSM book coming out, with a typically turgid LR title like, "The Treacherous, Unjust, Lying Cover-up Consummating in the Oppressed, Victimized and Damaged Sisters"?

That one I would buy! Much better than "The Fermentation of the Present Rebellion!"

03-12-2019 09:34 AM

Nell

Re: Whistleblower

This is what happened when the family of the abuser was protected. What has always amazed me is that these elders KNEW scripturally what they should do, but were directly influenced by Witness Lee's personal intervention via BP.

Post #27 below.

The Shameful Behavior Continues

Poster “Hope” has revealed his own name: Don Rutledge. I believe this is common knowledge now.

The posts below do not make it clear, but there were two instances of sexual immorality discussed below. Don Rutledge (Hope) revealed the first instance when Ben McPherson confessed to Ray Graver. I don’t have an exact date for the conversation among the 5 elders below, but it can be traced back to the approximate time that Ben moved to Tyler, which we also don’t have an exact date for. If someone has this date (Don?) please post it.

The second instance occurred quite a few years later, and was discovered in 1991. If not for Witness Lee, Benson and Ray, the sisters in Irving, Arlington, Dallas and Fort Worth would have at least known that there was a sexual predator among them. Instead, they never knew...until the unthinkable happened. How many sisters today know that there are sexual predators among them in the Local Churches????

…and the history of sexual sin and sexual abuse in the Local Churches continues.

The Public Square (http://www.thebereans.net/forum2/index.php)
- Nee, Lee & the Church of Recovery

SECOND IMMORAL CASE (EMPHASIS BY NELL TO CLARIFY)
Ben McPherson had an affair with the wife of a brother he had served with in the Local Church in Houston, and then divorced his wife. When the affair was found out, she divorced her husband.

Ben is now married to his brother's former wife. She was my friend, my sister in the Lord, and a spiritual mother to me for years. Some of us tried to help rescue her, but we all failed.

We begged Benson Phillips to try and help rescue these two marriages too. Benson was close to all the parties involved and was responsible for a serious problem which only he could clear up. He was too busy. He had to fly off to spread the church life to Russia. KSA can tell you how well that went.

Ben's children and his brother's children all grew up together in Houston.

Nell 10-29-07 09:38
________________________________________
Quote Thankful: post #102

If anyone "in-the-know" in Texas had spoken out "negatively" about Ben M.'s condition many years ago when it was discovered, what happened to the brother who lost his wife might have been avoided.

Whoever knew and didn't tell bears a measure of responsibility in that situation since Ben M. was an elder and should have been publicly corrected. Ben M. might have even been helped. Instead, it looks like he was "protected" at his own expense and at the expense of the uninformed sheep.

No Christian likes to hear these kind of things about a fellow believer. But then again, neither does anyone like to hear a doctor say they have cancer.

If a doctor isn't willing to speak "negatively" when cancer is found, he plays a part in the outcome.

Thankful

Nell 10-29-07 09:42
________________________________________
Hope: #103

Regarding Ben McPhersons immorality, this is the report from a first hand witness: Ray Graver was the first to know. He contacted Benson Phillips who called for an urgent gathering at his home with Ray, Joe Davis of Houston, Don Looper of Austin and Don Rutledge of Dallas. This occurred the morning after Ben was found out. All the brothers there were furious. Don Rutledge angrily declared that they had all been betrayed. All agreed that Ben should be publicly excommunicated and publicly rebuked that all may fear. All agreed that the Lord could not bless the church in Irving due to Ben’s sin. Ben had confessed to Ray that this sin was not a one time thing but had been going on for some time including when he was in Arlington. Ben also admitted that he knew the Church in Arlington had lagged the other Dallas area churches in blessing due to his sin. At that time, none of these brothers would sympathize with any immorality and especially from an elder or co-worker.

While they were meeting, Witness Lee returned Bensons urgent message. After about a 30 minute conversation, Benson returned to the room where the brothers were waiting, still in a state of shock and outrage. Witness Lee urged them to consider Bens family and the harm to them if he was publicly exposed. He urged them not to publicly excommunicate him but simply ask him to move away. That is what Ray and Benson decided to do. The other three had big reservations but deferred to the Irving brothers to take care of the matter.

But then the lying started. Many people began to call wanting to know what happened to Ben. Since Witness Lee, Benson and Ray had decided to keep the real situation under wraps, what where these brothers to say. Looper and Rutledge would say that something must have happened in Irving and they did not know for sure – A LIE. Benson and Ray told various stories, Ben wanted to get away etc and not to worry since he was in fellowship.

Witness Lee urged Benson and Ray to spend time with Ben and seek to recover him, but they were too disgusted to seek to contact him.

Yes the worldly wisdom from Witness Lee and the unfaithfulness of the five brothers led to more tragedy. All five have an account to give at the judgment seat.

Hope

In Christ Jesus there is hope for us all.

03-12-2019 08:53 AM

Ohio

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Yes on Matthew 18.

But no on your concept about what constitutes church government. The “LR” is not church government. In this case the church government included the offending elder and the other local elders that advised the sister to remain quiet. At least, that is what I heard. Apparently she complied with the advice for the interest of the unknowing spouse. Yet, it is understandable in retrospect that would not bring closure. So the last step of v17 applies here and becomes relevant.... that is, no resolution in the church therefore the offending brother should be treated like a Gentile. It’s not only a civil matter, it’s a criminal matter too.

Like I said before, this sister has every right to exercise her rights as a citizen, seek justice, and obtain proper closure. Any action must be in the Holy Spirit of course... and with those whom she trusts.

Drake

Isn't it interesting that LC action (really inaction, or wrongful action) was self-servingly designed to "protect" the interest of the unknowing spouse. How deceitful! If every case was handled in this way, no criminal would ever be held accountable. There is always someone who needs "protecting." The Apostle Paul, however, demanded that "those who sin should be rebuked before all, that all be in fear." (I Tim. 5.20) Obviously this would include the family of the abusing, molesting elder. I am also a firm believer that those who sin in this way may be restored after repentance to communion as a brother, (e.g. II Cor. 2.6-7) but never be restored to church or ministry office.

For decades Witness Lee protected his boys from culpability. WL was merely protecting himself and his ministry while the list of victims grew. WL would relocate some of these victims to other churches, claiming that he would "handle his sons" personally. Yet matters only grew worse.

The so-called and much-discussed "storms" or quarantines of the late 80's and the late 90's in Anaheim were simply WL coverups for his boys. The facts of history have proven this conclusively. Instead of WL rebuking his sons before all, he attacked the accusers, the whistle blowers, by accusing them of a vast global conspiracy, branding them as rebellious lepers, worthy of expulsion, and smearing their reputations before all.

WL and the Blendeds should have been imprisoned for libel and slander based on what they did to other men of God for speaking their conscience to protect God's children. What they did was despicable. It was criminal. All to protect known degenerates like Lee's own sons. (Read what happened to Eli, whose sons were similar. I Samuel 2.12-17, 22-25, 27-34, 4.12-18)

Yet ones like Drake, who claims to stand up in defense of these victims, remains absolutely silent as to the actions of both Witness Lee and the Blendeds during those pathetic times. The level of dishonesty he displays is appalling. Today's Blendeds (BP, MC, RG, MC, etc.) scammed a hoax on the LC's, which was perpetuated for decades.

03-12-2019 07:58 AM

Cal

Re: Whistleblower

Do Justice

It is not good to be partial to the wicked or to deprive the righteous of justice. Proverbs 18:5

You shall not pervert the justice due to your poor in his lawsuit. Exodus 23:6

To do righteousness and justice is more acceptable to the Lord than sacrifice. Proverbs 21:3

Justice, and only justice, you shall follow, that you may live and inherit the land that the Lord your God is giving you. Deuteronomy 16:20

Open your mouth for the mute, for the rights of all who are destitute. Open your mouth, judge righteously, defend the rights of the poor and needy. Proverbs 31:8-9

For I the Lord love justice; I hate robbery and wrong. Isaiah 61:8

A righteous man knows the rights of the poor; a wicked man does not understand such knowledge. Proverbs 29:7

Does God pervert justice? Or does the Almighty pervert the right? Job 8:3

I know that the Lord will maintain the cause of the afflicted, and will execute justice for the needy. Psalm 140:12

Thus says the Lord: “Keep justice, and do righteousness, for soon my salvation will come, and my deliverance be revealed." Isaiah 56:1

“But woe to you Pharisees! For you tithe mint and rue and every herb, and neglect justice and the love of God. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others." Luke 11:42

For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, when all the arrogant and all evildoers will be stubble. The day that is coming shall set them ablaze, says the Lord of hosts, so that it will leave them neither root nor branch. Malachi 4:1

03-12-2019 07:45 AM

Cal

Re: Whistleblower

Do Not Oppress the Weak

You shall not mistreat any widow or fatherless child. Exodus 22:22

Woe to those who decree iniquitous decrees, and the writers who keep writing oppression, to turn aside the needy from justice and to rob the poor of my people of their right, that widows may be their spoil, and that they may make the fatherless their prey! What will you do on the day of punishment, in the ruin that will come from afar? To whom will you flee for help, and where will you leave your wealth? Nothing remains but to crouch among the prisoners or fall among the slain. For all this his anger has not turned away, and his hand is stretched out still. Isaiah 10:1-4

They have grown fat and sleek. They know no bounds in deeds of evil; they judge not with justice the cause of the fatherless, to make it prosper, and they do not defend the rights of the needy. Jeremiah 5:28

Your princes are rebels and companions of thieves. Everyone loves a bribe and runs after gifts. They do not bring justice to the fatherless, and the widow's cause does not come to them. Isaiah 1:23

Cursed be anyone who perverts the justice due to the sojourner, the fatherless, and the widow. Deuteronomy 27:19

Learn to do good; seek justice, correct oppression; bring justice to the fatherless, plead the widow's cause. Isaiah 1:17

Thus says the Lord of hosts, Render true judgments, show kindness and mercy to one another, do not oppress the widow, the fatherless, the sojourner, or the poor, and let none of you devise evil against another in your heart. Zechariah 7:9-10

Vindicate the weak and fatherless; Do justice to the afflicted and destitute. Rescue the weak and needy; Deliver them out of the hand of the wicked. Psalm 82:3-4

May he vindicate the afflicted of the people, Save the children of the needy, And crush the oppressor. Psalm 72:4

The LORD also will be a stronghold for the oppressed, A stronghold in times of trouble; Psalm 9:9

O LORD, God of vengeance, God of vengeance, shine forth! Rise up, O Judge of the earth, Render recompense to the proud. How long shall the wicked, O LORD, How long shall the wicked exult? Psalm 94:1-7

03-12-2019 06:34 AM

Cal

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Yes on Matthew 18.

But no on your concept about what constitutes church government. The “LR” is not church government. In this case the church government included the offending elder and the other local elders that advised the sister to remain quiet. At least, that is what I heard. Apparently she complied with the advice for the interest of the unknowing spouse. Yet, it is understandable in retrospect that would not bring closure. So the last step of v17 applies here and becomes relevant.... that is, no resolution in the church therefore the offending brother should be treated like a Gentile. It’s not only a civil matter, it’s a criminal matter too.

Like I said before, this sister has every right to exercise her rights as a citizen, seek justice, and obtain proper closure. Any action must be in the Holy Spirit of course... and with those whom she trusts.

Drake

You are quibbling about unimportant details, as usual.

And if you are such a big shot in the LR, why don't you get your conscience in gear on this obvious trail of evidence and CLEAN UP YOUR OWN BACKYARD? If you love the LR so much you ought to be outraged and angry. Yet, as usual, nothing seems to ruffle your feathers, except when your pride gets hurt.

"If anyone causes one of these little ones--those who believe in me--to stumble, it would be better for them if a large millstone were hung around their neck and they were thrown into the sea." Mark 9:42

03-12-2019 06:07 AM

Cal

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

I say this because LSM and the LC movement have left a long trail of victims in their wake. Rotten leaders have always been enabled by ones like Drake, who look the other way, bury their heads in the sand, and attack the whistle blower, all behind the guise of "righteousness." This is exactly what the Blendeds did for the Lee family, thus guaranteeing their own rise to power, and there's no reason to believe they will ever change.

We have see the trail of victims come through this website.

Observers should know that we have nothing against the brothers and sisters in the LR nor the churches themselves. What we have a problem with is the systemic error of a movement with an ingrained mindset and trained conscience to defend the decisions and actions of LR leadership to practically the death. Certainly that mindset has resulted in the spiritual death of many of their victims, who are all treated like cannon fodder for the juggernaut of their "great and glorious" movement--the premise of which, as I shown many times, is a HOAX.

This is what Paul called a "stronghold"* of the devil in the mind's of people. And this is why when confronted with genuine reason, facts and the light of the word, supporters like Drake end up looking ridiculous. Yet they plod on, as if somehow God will reward them for their irrationality. Forever in denial, forever going in circles. In their minds they simply cannot be wrong, reason be damned.

Why? For no other reason than Brother Lee said so. They need nothing more than that. If their view conflicts with his, they always adjust their view to match, they never decide Lee was wrong. This is the bottom line implicit rule of membership in the movement. EVERYTHING is subordinate to the principle. That's the deal, and it is obviously a seriously unhealthy attitude. But there you have it.

They are not the first in history to hold such attitudes, nor are they the only on earth today. Their error has been seen and recorded in many spiritually abusive groups. A cursory examination of the information on the Internet will reveal that the attitudes and tactics used by the LR are common to such groups. They just happen to be the one that affected us, and which we feel obligated to resist and expose.

* For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ. 2 Cor 10:3-5

03-12-2019 05:33 AM

Ohio

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by JLBW

There will be no resolution in a LC overseen by the BBs. I have chosen to move on and find a place to meet with other believers that do not cover up sin.

JLBW, what you have concluded here about the BB's is altogether correct, and I rejoice that you have decided to follow our Lord and Savior rather than to give up your faith. Your decisions bring shame to our enemy, and great glory to God. May the Lord bless you and keep you in His loving embrace.

I say this because LSM and the LC movement have left a long trail of victims in their wake. Rotten leaders have always been enabled by ones like Drake, who look the other way, bury their heads in the sand, and attack the whistle blower, all behind the guise of "righteousness." This is exactly what the Blendeds did for the Lee family, thus guaranteeing their own rise to power, and there's no reason to believe they will ever change.

What other ministry on earth maintains its own seasoned legal staff like DCP to protect itself from criminal and civil liability?

03-12-2019 05:18 AM

Nell

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by JLBW

Thank you Nell! I feel stronger and freer now that I've said it out loud. But in also afraid of DCP and what they might try to do to shut me up. Could they sue me?

Yes. They could sue you. However, anybody can file a lawsuit any time against anyone for any reason. Frivolous lawsuits are filed and thrown out of court every day.

* A lawsuit against you by DCP, if it goes forward, could backfire. It could open a door for you to testify and call witnesses. Those who have also been abused could line up to tell their story in open court and name names. But who knows? DCP exists for the purpose of filing lawsuits.

* Does DCP have a cause of action against you? You have not damaged DCP. You could file a counter claim against it for harassment.

I used to be a legal secretary and legal assistant. I have a degree in "Law and Order". I know enough to be dangerous

!

Your question "Can they sue me?" is exactly what DCP wants in the back of people's minds. This is the image it wants to portray. Because of DCP's litigious history, it looms large as a deterrent against anyone speaking out. It's history provides a bully pulpit without it saying a word. It wants people never to forget who is running the show: DCP.

Remember the Wizard of Oz? The man behind the curtain? His power was an illusion.

Nell

03-11-2019 08:18 PM

Drake

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Igzy

God also established the Church government. And as I said before, the only reference the Lord Jesus made to the practical church was in establishing it as a place where little people can go to get JUSTICE for being wronged (Matt 18:15-17).

But do you think any of these abused sisters will get any satisfaction from the LR on that? You might as well think you'll see Drake dancing and quacking in a duck suit on America's Got Talent.

Yes on Matthew 18.

But no on your concept about what constitutes church government. The “LR” is not church government. In this case the church government included the offending elder and the other local elders that advised the sister to remain quiet. At least, that is what I heard. Apparently she complied with the advice for the interest of the unknowing spouse. Yet, it is understandable in retrospect that would not bring closure. So the last step of v17 applies here and becomes relevant.... that is, no resolution in the church therefore the offending brother should be treated like a Gentile. It’s not only a civil matter, it’s a criminal matter too.

Like I said before, this sister has every right to exercise her rights as a citizen, seek justice, and obtain proper closure. Any action must be in the Holy Spirit of course... and with those whom she trusts.

Drake

03-11-2019 08:12 PM

JLBW

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Igzy

There will be no resolution in a LC overseen by the BBs. I have chosen to move on and find a place to meet with other believers that do not cover up sin.
If Drake would like to fund a civil law suit I'd be happy to let him fund it. Or I'd be happy if he facilitated a payment to reimburse my therapy, but my guess is his offer to help is limited to the useless post he made in reply to his ??s
My healing is between me and the Lord and my spouse. I posted on here only to refute the idea that sexual sin is a thing of the past. Many sisters don't want to be involved in stupid dialogues online. I've only recently gotten the strength to speak about my trauma.

03-11-2019 07:16 PM

Cal

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Just to be clear, I am not a pot stirrer... and always look for the way to settle to everyone's satisfaction before the Lord, but I also believe God established the human government with its courts to execute His judgement on wrong-doers. So, I have no qualms about advising that IF THAT IS WHAT YOU NEED as the victim to gain closure.

03-11-2019 06:58 PM

Drake

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by JLBW

Sorry Drake I had to work all day and don't have much time for this forum. Your inquisition is odd and disappointing. But I'll entertain you for the purpose of stopping this madness. I was an adult and my parents are not in the LC. They have nothing to do with this sexual misconduct.
The "brother" was an elder and I was told to keep quiet by the other elders who happen to be involved with DCP and also happened to fellowship about this with the blended brothers all the way at the top in Anaheim. No one encouraged me to do anything about this to obtain retribution from my attacker. I've spent thousands on mental health counseling. They only cared that I not damage the family of the attacker by making his sin and crime known.
Happy now? So how do you propose to go around the BBs? Are you willing to pay for my legal fees to bring a coal law suit? Do you know that this man still meets and is inappropriate with other sisters? He's only one of many that I know of. States that I have information about include Washington, Idaho, Texas, California,and Florida.....but that's only what I know about. How do we stop this damage? I'm all ears.....

JLBW,

Thanks for your clarification.

I believe that you should do what you need to do before the Lord to bring closure and sometimes that is justice. God is just and righteous and He doesn't act apart from that. A man, or a brother in the Lord, does not have a free pass to impose his flesh and fleshly desires on another no matter what may be his visible service to the Lord.... and it is not always best to protect the unsuspecting spouse even for her sake. So I disagree, as far as I can know, to keep it quiet. Furthermore, moving the problem often means that someone else has to deal with it.

What to do? Well, first everything must be done before the Lord, you and Him primarily, and others as He leads you. If an offending brother won't hear you, never repented, and you already escalated in the church then you always have a final recourse in the courts. If it has been awhile then you must consult the statute of limitations state by state. This is a good place to start:

https://www.rainn.org/state-state-gu...es-limitations

Just to be clear, I am not a pot stirrer... and always look for the way to settle to everyone's satisfaction before the Lord, but I also believe God established the human government with its courts to execute His judgement on wrong-doers. So, I have no qualms about advising that IF THAT IS WHAT YOU NEED as the victim to gain closure.

Drake

03-11-2019 06:42 PM

Cal

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by JLBW

Thanks you for your cherishing words. I engaged but only because in Christ I'm strong enough to subdue/kill a cobra.

Alright!! Well done!

03-11-2019 06:42 PM

JLBW

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

JLBW,

Thank you for coming to the forum and telling your story. You are right. Nothing can change what happened to you and, who knows how many others who were abused by men in the Local Church. I cannot bring myself to refer to these people as "brothers".

The abuse apparently continues to this day.

How can we help? This forum could be a starting place. If you know other sisters who have suffered as you have, consider encouraging them to come here and at least read. Start with Whistleblower. There is a LOT of information and conversation in this topic. Also, Martha and Marry's House is a good private place for women to share among other women.

There are a couple of posters who contributed to Whistleblower with an obvious goal of derailing the subject. To me this only shows how important this topic is to the sisters and important to the house of God that this sin be exposed and dealt with.

Again, thank you for sharing with us, and I am so sorry for 1) the sexual abuse you suffered by a man you trusted, and 2) the way you were treated when you exposed this abuse. I am praying for you.

Nell

1 Timothy 5:19-21
19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses. 20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear. 21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

Thank you Nell! I feel stronger and freer now that I've said it out loud. But in also afraid of DCP and what they might try to do to shut me up. Could they sue me?

03-11-2019 06:34 PM

JLBW

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Igzy

Amen.

JLBW, I advise you to not engage Drake. The guy is about as trustworthy as a cobra with heat rash.

Drake, Back off.

Thanks you for your cherishing words. I engaged but only because in Christ I'm strong enough to subdue/kill a cobra😉
You all are awesome supports and I appreciate all the love and care. My guess is that Drake cannot do anything to go against the BBs so he's not going to offer me help. I'd be happy to get some closure and money from my attacker.....but so far I've just trusted the Lord for healing and supply. And He is Good!!

03-11-2019 06:25 PM

JLBW

Re: Whistleblower

03-11-2019 06:01 PM

Cal

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

You don't like an honest conversation like that, well, I cannot help that, UntoHim.

Oh, that's rich! Like you would know ANYTHING about honest conversation.

It just doesn't end, folks. It just doesn't end.

03-11-2019 05:57 PM

Drake

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

I'm only going to re-post this one more time. The next time I will assume you are playing games and moderate you accordingly. Please slow down and re-read the following:

If you don't believe this sister than you don't believe her. We all know that "you have never seen or heard of such a thing in the local church". Yes, yes, we all know that is what you are going to say. Go for it and be done with it my man. But it is now painfully obvious that there are many things that have taken place and are currently taken place in the Local Church of Witness Lee that you have not personally seen or heard of. As JLBW already pointed out to you, that doesn't mean that didn't happen or that they are taking place to this very day.

Keep it up, and I'm going to sick "The Sheepdog" after ya.

UntoHim,

Please, stop threatening me with moderation. I've read it several times so don't worry about that. Furthermore, I've done nothing, nor said a single thing worthy of even a minor edit. On the other hand, you've allowed this christian forum to become a pit of profanity without raising a pinky finger to moderate the perpetrator of such despicable language. How many more profanity laced asterisks are in our future? Where does such pathetic vocabulary go next?

I, on the other hand, am very concerned about this sister. You see, it's not enough for her to simply sweep it under the proverbial rug. Nor will it be helpful that she holds on to the experience by reliving it here over and over. That is not progression and that will never reach closure. You have any experience in dealing with this sort of thing in any religious or secular settings besides this forum? No? I have.

I have no reason to doubt her personal experience and I am also for taking the appropriate action including "sicking" the law as needed... for if there is any sicking to be done that is perhaps where it should come from. She made a general statement based on a personal experience. Was it an elder or just a local active leading brother? Was it elders that advised to inaction or her parents? Was she a minor? Do you know? That matters. If so, how about you step up and agree to do the right thing by her and not use her for bashing others as is the SOP in this forum. How about that? Frankly, this forum is ill-equipped to handle this or is that not apparent? The most that can be done by any of us is to advise to facilitate her into an environment where she can get real help... and justice.

Or is it just an easier path to use this sister's personal experience to bash and generalize about all the Lords' brothers in the group you dislike? Are there incidents? I'm sure there are. Is it "rampant".... we'll see.

You don't like an honest conversation like that, well, I cannot help that, UntoHim. It's your forum and you get to exclude any thoughts you disagree with... maybe that sounds familiar to you? My observation is that this forum is the least tolerant of any internet group I have ever been a part of. Just don't take advantage of this sister because she is saying want you want to hear. It's a sensitive subject but that is not an excuse to hide behind. At least, I will step up on her behalf.

Drake

03-11-2019 05:48 PM

Cal

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

JLBW,
I am repeating myself as well:

Remember, if you want to, we can take the points of Whistleblower to Martha and Mary's House. I think the honorable brothers on this forum have much to contribute, and I hate that it may come to this. Regardless, it's not likely that Drake can control himself.

Nell

Amen.

JLBW, I advise you to not engage Drake. The guy is about as trustworthy as a cobra with heat rash.

Drake, Back off.

03-11-2019 05:43 PM

Nell

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

JLBW,
I am repeating myself as well:

Quote:

... Also, Martha and Mary's House is a good private place for women to share among other women.

There are a couple of posters who contributed to Whistleblower with an obvious goal of derailing the subject. To me this only shows how important this topic is to the sisters and important to the house of God that this sin be exposed and dealt with.

Remember, if you want to, we can take the points of Whistleblower to Martha and Mary's House. I think the honorable brothers on this forum have much to contribute, and I hate that it may come to this. Regardless, it's not likely that Drake can control himself.

Nell

03-11-2019 05:14 PM

Cal

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

JLBW, did an elder abuse you and did the the other elders in the church advise you not to say anything? Did your parents know what happened and how did they advise you?

Furthermore, how old were you when this happened? That itself could very well add weight to what action needs to be taken.

Drake

Drake,

Are you high on drugs? JLBW claims to have been sexually abused by the very people you defend within an inch of your life on this board. Do you really think she wants to engage with someone like you in public? Do you understand anything about how trust works with women? Do you really think it would be psychologically healthy for her to even begin to speak to someone like you? Would you want your wife or daughter to do that? The very fact that you jump in and begin to interrogate her right out of the chute, without registering any sympathy or tenderness or anything suggesting you aren't the Johnny Cochran of the LR (who at least had enough sense to pretend to be sympathetic), is exhibit #1 of what I say about you--that there is something very, very wrong with you. Lord, help us!

03-11-2019 04:54 PM

UntoHim

Re: Whistleblower

I'm only going to re-post this one more time. The next time I will assume you are playing games and moderate you accordingly. Please slow down and re-read the following:

Quote:

Originally Posted by JLBW

I can tell you there are many many women and girls who have been abused and harmed by "elders" and leading "brothers" in the LC and I was one of them.
I was expected to submit to the brothers and I did.

If you don't believe this sister than you don't believe her. We all know that "you have never seen or heard of such a thing in the local church". Yes, yes, we all know that is what you are going to say. Go for it and be done with it my man. But it is now painfully obvious that there are many things that have taken place and are currently taken place in the Local Church of Witness Lee that you have not personally seen or heard of. As JLBW already pointed out to you, that doesn't mean that didn't happen or that they are taking place to this very day.

Keep it up, and I'm going to sick "The Sheepdog" after ya.

03-11-2019 04:22 PM

Drake

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Come on Drake. You know very well what she means by "submit to the brothers". She is obviously talking about the elders - or should I say the elders that didn't sexually abuse her. The story about shipping the criminal out of town and silencing the victim comes right from the playbook of Witness Lee. There are several examples of this immoral and criminal shenanigans right here on this forum.
-

No I don't UntoHim.... and I don't agree with the advice she was given. Maybe she was referring to parents, friends, family, etc. She should clarify who told her (not the actual names or localities of course). Such serious charges should be specific.

JLBW, did an elder abuse you and did the the other elders in the church advise you not to say anything? Did your parents know what happened and how did they advise you?

Furthermore, how old were you when this happened? That itself could very well add weight to what action needs to be taken.

Drake

03-11-2019 03:54 PM

UntoHim

Re: Whistleblower

03-11-2019 03:00 PM

Cal

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

JLBW,

Who told you to hush?

Who told you to submit to the brothers in this matter specifically?

Not names... but who?

Drake

Here we go again, gnats and camels...

Not "I'm sorry for your suffering." Not "I'm praying for your healing." But rather, "What little detail of your testimony can I slant to cast doubt on your credibility?" Gnats and camels, gnats and camels...

03-11-2019 02:16 PM

Drake

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by JLBW

I can tell you there are many many women and girls who have been abused and harmed by "elders" and leading "brothers" in the LC and I was one of them. I was told to hush and not damage the dear sister and her family by exposing her husband's sexual misconduct with me. I was expected to submit to the brothers and I did. But I won't anymore. If you think that there are no harmed sisters just because we don't get on forums to discuss our abuse you are very deceived! The shame and humiliation that happens when you are violated sexually is more than most can bear. If you are a man you would not have any way to understand how it feels and how long it takes to heal from this type of sinful and illegal activity by "leaders" in the LC. I had no idea how much of a culture from WL and WN this was until finding this forum and now I'm even more angry. May God have mercy on every brother and leader who has covered up a sinning man and sent them away to harm other sisters in new locations. The Word is very strong in addressing this and the church should be also.

JLBW,

Who told you to hush?

Who told you to submit to the brothers in this matter specifically?

Not names... but who?

Drake

03-11-2019 11:16 AM

Cal

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by JLBW

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake
I am happy to engage in that way to show that the accusation of rampant sexual abuse by local church leaders in the local churches is a complete and utter fabrication, slander, and defamatory.

Sorry but your lack of evidence that it is happening is not the same as "not happening". I can guarantee that it is rampant as I have first hand knowledge of victims and I am one.

Don't worry about Drake, JLBW. He's a serial prevaricator, and worse. He's probably mentally ill.

Thanks for stepping up and standing up to him.

03-10-2019 05:28 AM

Nell

Re: Whistleblower

03-09-2019 05:21 PM

JLBW

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

I am happy to engage in that way to show that the accusation of rampant sexual abuse by local church leaders in the local churches is a complete and utter fabrication, slander, and defamatory.

Sorry but your lack of evidence that it is happening is not the same as "not happening". I can guarantee that it is rampant as I have first hand knowledge of victims and I am one.

03-09-2019 05:17 PM

JLBW

Re: Whistleblower

I can tell you there are many many women and girls who have been abused and harmed by "elders" and leading "brothers" in the LC and I was one of them. I was told to hush and not damage the dear sister and her family by exposing her husband's sexual misconduct with me. I was expected to submit to the brothers and I did. But I won't anymore. If you think that there are no harmed sisters just because we don't get on forums to discuss our abuse you are very deceived! The shame and humiliation that happens when you are violated sexually is more than most can bear. If you are a man you would not have any way to understand how it feels and how long it takes to heal from this type of sinful and illegal activity by "leaders" in the LC. I had no idea how much of a culture from WL and WN this was until finding this forum and now I'm even more angry. May God have mercy on every brother and leader who has covered up a sinning man and sent them away to harm other sisters in new locations. The Word is very strong in addressing this and the church should be also.

09-16-2018 03:45 PM

Evangelical

Re: Whistleblower

OK so you've given them a voice now where are the voices? Can we count them? How many voices can we see here?

As Drake pointed out, so far nothing relevant has been discussed other than goings on with PL , Watchman Nee and nothing really to suggest that "is it still happening" is true. If there was anything of substance today, would we need to keep repeating these things?

We've heard about atmospheres. We've heard about women with blank faces and the curse of Genesis. Drake was blamed for something, I still don't know what. Even the example that Nell gave in the OP was not related to the local churches but to her workplace. There's really been no attempts by any local church people to censor or evade, because no one has really said much at all.

09-16-2018 06:18 AM

UntoHim

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

If you are an abuser in the Local Church, or have knowledge of abuse, you are a criminal. You are not a participant in "God's best" but "the devil's worst." You have an obligation to your victims and to the Body of Christ to stop your sin, repent to your Lord and Savior, repent to your victims, repent to the church and to make restitution to your victims and rid the church of this heinous crime and this shame to the Lord's name.

Yet once more, for the sake of our readers, I will place this quote this from Nell's opening post to the forefront. This encapsulates all that Nell was really trying to get across in starting this thread. She can correct me if I'm wrong. As I have previously made clear, NO NAMES OF THE VICTIMS WILL BE ALLOWED ON THIS FORUM UNLESS THEY ARE VOLUNTEERED BY THE VICTIM HERSELF/HIMSELF. NO IDENTIFYING DETAILS ABOUT THE VICTIMS OR SPECIFIC DETAILS ABOUT THE ABUSE WILL BE ALLOWED ON THIS FORUM UNLESS THEY ARE VOLUNTEERED BY THE VICTIM. If anybody wants "proof" about the abuse, and covering up of the abuse, they can start their own forum and then censor the heck out of the victims, and those crying out on behalf of the victims, and then claim the moral victory before the Internet audience. Actually, such websites already exist. They are administered and under the full control of the official leaders of the Local Church of Witness Lee - The Blended Brothers.

In the meantime. The victims will have a voice here - either directly or indirectly through sisters like Nell and the other sisters that have posted here through the years. AND THEY WILL BE GIVEN A VOICE WITHOUT FACING THE UNRIGHTEOUS, UNFAIR AND DESPICABLE IMPUGNING BY LOCAL CHURCH BROTHERS WHOSE ONLY CARE IS FOR THE PROTECTION OF THEIR RELIGION, THE FOUNDER OF THEIR RELIGION AND THE CURRENT LEADERS WITHIN THEIR RELIGION.

If, as the admin of this forum, I am found to be error for giving girls/women/sisters a voice, then I will be found in error. But let it be known that my error will be on the side of caution for the sake of innocent girls/women/sisters - and on the side of God and God's Word I believe.
-

09-16-2018 04:17 AM

Ohio

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Those are your specifics and basis for leveling criminal charges of rape and sexual abuse of girls in the local churches by local current church leadership? You rely on the testimony of a young sister coerced into testifying by Communist leaders in a public kangaroo court half a century ago? You extend the consensual immorality of PL decades ago as proof that local church leadership are engaging in flourishing sexual abuse of girls?

Those are not fair words, those are not logical words, and are not even standards that rise to basement level ...

Well, welll, well ... This is the closest Drake has ever come to an honest admission of LSM's dark past.

Firstly, I would not call this "consensual" when Philip Lee, the most powerful man at LSM, is abusing the volunteer staff during working hours. Was he just a great looking guy who needed some stress relief after lunch? Hardly. Today this is called workplace sexual abuse. It is adultery. It is pathetic. And it included many more sisters who were not "willing consensuals."

And you then speak of "fairness." How about a little "fairness" for the victims? How about a little "fairness" for the other saints? How about a little "fairness" for John Ingalls and others who attempted to protect the victims?

Nope, no such fairness for them! John Ingalls and others were publicly shamed, tarred and feathered, and excommunicated from their own churches. Books were written to slander them. These ones still cry out, like Abel of old, for justice against the Lee family.

What about Philip Lee, the "Harvey Weinstein" of the Lord's Recovery? Did he suffer any consequences? None. As Ed Marks recently told poster ZNP, Philip Lee was restored to good standing because it "pleased" his Daddy. No such luck for brother John Ingalls though, or the other victims.

09-15-2018 11:17 PM

Drake

Re: Whistleblower

-1

UntoHim,

Those are your specifics and basis for leveling criminal charges of rape and sexual abuse of girls in the local churches by local current church leadership? You rely on the testimony of a young sister coerced into testifying by Communist leaders in a public kangaroo court half a century ago? You extend the consensual immorality of PL decades ago as proof that local church leadership are engaging in flourishing sexual abuse of girls?

Those are not fair words, those are not logical words, and are not even standards that rise to basement level in the house of God, You’d be lucky to find those thoughts and accusations in the gutter down the street from the house of God.

With every false accusation you wallow this forum deeper into the pigsty. Your arguments are not rational, your accusations are without basis and are unrighteous, and the standard you claim to desire for this forum, the house of God, or even that of a Christian group is way way in the gutter.

We are mostly brothers in this forum and need to conduct ourselves right here in public view with the highest standard. You want the standard found in the house of God for this forum? Then start by not allowing the accuser of the brethren to have a soapbox for leveling slanderous accusations against brothers.

So please stop.... and stop mocking my calls for civility.

Drake

09-15-2018 08:21 PM

UntoHim

Re: Whistleblower

Drake, Drake, Drake!

Stop. Please. STOP!

Since when do you get your feathers in such a ruffle over talk about sexual abuse in the Local Church of Witness Lee? It should be old hat for you by now, my man. As I just recently noted on this very thread, it is now known by anyone who wants to know that this dynamic started with Watchman Nee. He was excommunicated by the very elders he appointed for a very good reason. Thanks to Dr. Lily Hsu we now know the reason(s). Of course nobody needs a tell-all book by a reputable medical doctor to know about what happened in Witness Lee's regime - Where the Acting God unleashed a DECADES long reign of terror against innocent women by his criminally deviant son, Phillip. How's that for "specifics" bud?

And now Drake wants us all to believe that all this ended when Lee & son met their Maker. (you know, that Judge you mentioned) Really bud? Some of us may have been born at night....but it WASN'T LAST NIGHT. You don't want specifics. You want this all to go away. Just like Watchman did. Just like Witness Did. Just like the Blended do.
-

09-15-2018 02:57 PM

Drake

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

..... let's just stick with the standards for the house of God as set forth by the real Judge, shall we?
-

Why, I think that is terrific idea UntoHim..... so how about you step up as the Christian owner of this forum and stop the slander and libel coming from your forum clique fomenting accusations of “flourishing” sexual abuse, and rape, by local church leaders toward girls, women, and sisters... or are those standards that do not apply “for the house of God set forth by the real Judge”?

Or, if you really think you are on a mission from God then produce the evidence to substantiate the accusations..... let’s see the specifics .... you owe the forum that much... Step up and deliver the evidence amigo. Until then, spare us irrelevant lectures about kitty litter boxes, 1918 China, courthouses, and Bill Clinton,.. you are complicit in accusations about real people, a specific group, today, and in a public forum..... and it happens to be yours.

Trying to help you out bud. I really really am.

Drake

09-15-2018 12:20 PM

UntoHim

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Just to be clear. You prefer “flourish “ as opposed to “rampant “

What I prefer is that girls/women/sisters are not put in a position where they are sexually abused by Christian men who are in a position of trust over them. What I would also prefer is that Local Church leaders don't act like cats in the litter box. This started with Watchman Nee, continued with Witness Lee and continues to this day.

Quote:

Let’s get the terms right

So what's your next move? Are you going to tell us that "It depends upon what the meaning of 'Is' is".

I'll tell you what, why don't we see about protecting innocent girls/women/sisters first, then we can worry about terms later. This is 2018 America, not 1918 China. Girls and women can define and consider what sexual abuse is for themselves. Yes, yes, I know that "rape" has a legal definition over at the courthouse, but we are not talking about the courthouse, we are talking about the house of the living God. I know you Local Churchers would rather keep everything over at the courthouse, but since you guys haven't had much luck over there anyway lately, let's just stick with the standards for the house of God as set forth by the real Judge, shall we?
-

09-15-2018 10:44 AM

Ohio

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Let’s get the terms right

Drake

Let's get the facts of history right.

09-15-2018 10:06 AM

Nell

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Nobody has said "rampant sexual abuse by local church leaders in the Local Churches". Talk about complete and utter fabrication, slander, and defamatory. No worries though, Nell, me and most others here are used to your hypocritical feigning of indignation. It's pretty much all you do around this place.

I'll tell you what is rampant among Local Church of Witness Lee leaders - The utter disrespect and abject contempt for their sisters in Christ. I have heard more than just a few women/sisters complain about being treated as "second class citizens" in the Local Church. And while treating girls/women/sisters as second class citizens isn't in and of itself sexual abuse, IT CREATES AN ATMOSPHERE WHERE GIRLS/WOMEN/SISTERS ARE VULNERABLE AND SUBJECT TO SUCH ABUSE.

Deny it all you want. Feign indignation till the mooing cows come home. Avoid and evade to your hearts content. And most of all, you are more than welcome to feel like nobody cares for what you think and feel about the matter......Welcome to the world of the average Local Church sister.

UntoHim,

You are correct. Thank you for your support.

Rule #1 of writing is "write about what you know".

John Ingalls' "Speaking the Truth in Love" is the classic. He wrote about the sister who came to him and poured out her heart and soul, exposing the sinful behavior of her abuser, at great personal risk to both of them.

As long as this book exists, it will remain the testament of sexual abuse in the Local Church. To deny John's account of Phillip Lee's sexual behavior in the LC, as documented by him in STTIL, you may as well deny the abuse of young boys in the Catholic Church. As with the LC, the question is not "did it really happen" but "how bad was it" and "is it still happening."

After having been out of the LC for a period of years, I went back to a meeting in Irving one Sunday morning. The only thing I remember about that meeting was the looks on the faces of the sisters. Blank. No smiles. No frowns. Just blank. The men were up and down with the fist pump. Declaring "I'm so happy in this lovely place." Even a few sisters gave testimonies but their faces were still blank.

Jane Anderson described it as a "good old boys club". And the "good old boys" are still blind as bats. And if you're in the club, you don't get to vote.

Nell

09-15-2018 10:04 AM

Drake

Re: Whistleblower

-1

Just to be clear. You prefer “flourish “ as opposed to “rampant “....

.....:And the accusation of “rape” by forum members is ok with you.

Let’s get the terms right

Drake

09-15-2018 09:02 AM

UntoHim

Re: Whistleblower

09-14-2018 09:44 PM

Drake

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

So how much the more to not make a passing comment some kind of focus for the thread. Why would anyone want to make a passing comment something worth changing the direction of a thread? Maybe because they want to avoid and evade the subject matter at hand?

UntoHim,

No one wants to avoid and evade the subject. However, challenging yours and others characterization about the subject is fair game and I am happy to engage in that way to show that the accusation of rampant sexual abuse by local church leaders in the local churches is a complete and utter fabrication, slander, and defamatory. Furthermore, in this topic and in other topics what you call a passing comment is often not just passing at all but often used to bolster the main argument or use it as a proof point. It too, is fair game ...else by letting it stand unchallenged one might infer that there is tacit agreement on our part.

Even letting your post quoted above go unchallenged could give someone the impression that those of us challenging Nell’s absurd accusations are trying to avoid and evade which we are not. And it is transparent that Nells cry of “Off-Topic” is her attempt to control the arc of the dialogue by letting your and those of her companions remarks stand and by censoring Evangelicals .....as she attempted with me previously. ZNP rightly pointed out that Nell legitimized as on topic a point she then criticized as off topic.

Drake

09-13-2018 03:03 PM

UntoHim

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

So while Jerry Sandusky, Penn State, the Catholic church and the molestation of boys are all cases of sexual abuse, getting into the details of these cases will ultimately take us away from the matter at hand - To wit - Sexual abuse of women/sisters/girls in the Local Church of Witness Lee. -

09-13-2018 02:14 PM

Evangelical

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

Uh. Actually I can.

If it's bait, I can call it what it is. But that's beside the point, isn't it? Even your "FYI" is bait, written to draw the conversation off topic. Which you have done. You accuse me of "whistleblowing" "every comment I disagree with" which is clearly wrong, and blatant "bait".

I haven't seen any posts about or by LC men being sexually abused by women in the LC. That would be on topic.

Otherwise, Stop! Please. STOP!

Nell

The topic I was addressing was the topic that awareness and yourself introduced. See ZNPs post. If you wanted to discuss the curse with awareness and no one else to reply then I suggest you should have done that privately.

09-13-2018 08:57 AM

Ohio

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

I didn't link it to the curse in Genesis. I said men are the curse of women.

Men are also their greatest blessing. They're MFEO.

It is sin that is the curse of women, and our greatest enemy.

09-13-2018 08:39 AM

awareness

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

It is a stereotype if you link it to the curse in Genesis.

I didn't link it to the curse in Genesis. I said men are the curse of women.

09-13-2018 08:06 AM

UntoHim

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

I think this statement gives us the heart of the matter. It is the theme of this thread. And too many of the posts that have followed are taking us away from the general theme. That's probably on me. My bad.

So while Jerry Sandusky, Penn State, the Catholic church and the molestation of boys are all cases of sexual abuse, getting into the details of these cases will ultimately take us away from the matter at hand - To wit - Sexual abuse of women/sisters/girls in the Local Church of Witness Lee.

-

09-13-2018 07:33 AM

ZNPaaneah

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

I haven't seen any posts about or by LC men being sexually abused by women in the LC. That would be on topic.

Otherwise, Stop! Please. STOP!

Nell

The first post referenced Jerry Sandusky, Penn State, and the Catholic Church. All of those are examples of boys being raped.

All statistics suggest that boys being raped is equally prevalent.

You made this "on topic" when you tied the abuse of sisters to Biblical theology. Awareness tied it into Gen 3:6 in Response to UntoHim's comment and you built on that with a war against women by Satan.

09-13-2018 06:41 AM

Nell

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

FYI this is a discussion forum. You can't label every comment you disagree with as "bait".

I haven't seen any posts about or by LC men being sexually abused by women in the LC. That would be on topic.

Otherwise, Stop! Please. STOP!

Nell

09-13-2018 04:36 AM

Evangelical

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

This is bait.

FYI this is a discussion forum. You can't label every comment you disagree with as "bait".

09-13-2018 04:14 AM

Evangelical

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

It's not a stereotype that by far and away it's men that rape.

It is a stereotype if you link it to the curse in Genesis.

09-13-2018 03:33 AM

Ohio

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

This is bait.

Somebody needs to blow the whistle on this guy.

09-12-2018 11:21 PM

Nell

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Don't forget that women rape men too. I don't think it has anything to do with the curse of man ruling over women.

This is bait.

09-12-2018 09:26 PM

awareness

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Nuns could be complicit in the crimes? Congratulations to awareness for winning the "let's promote sexist stereotypes" award.

It's not a stereotype that by far and away it's men that rape.

09-12-2018 07:31 PM

Evangelical

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

I can't believe you are claiming the rare exception of women raping men. How many Nun's have been accused of raping boys, compared to priests?

Nuns could be complicit in the crimes? Congratulations to awareness for winning the "let's promote sexist stereotypes" award.

09-12-2018 05:51 PM

leastofthese

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

No kidding. Doesn't it just make you want to scream "Stop! Please. STOP!"

Nell

If I wanted folks to believe in Witness Lee’s movement, then yes STOP! Otherwise, it’s par for the course for that dude. Trolling maybe.... maybe something else....

09-12-2018 01:37 PM

Nell

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

I can't believe you are claiming the rare exception of women raping men. How many Nun's have been accused of raping boys, compared to priests?

No kidding. Doesn't it just make you want to scream "Stop! Please. STOP!"

Nell

09-12-2018 10:55 AM

Ohio

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

Yes. It wasn't reported to the law, and the elders had no jurisdiction over LSM.

Only in Nee/Lee's system of "THE WORK" do Lee and Sons escape all accountability and responsibility to the Elders and the church.

Why can't all Christians escape all guilt on this technicality? Just claim that you are a part of "THE WORK" and you can get away with anything. Right?

And thus we explain why Lee and Sons were never culpable for their crimes.

09-12-2018 10:29 AM

UntoHim

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

Yes. It wasn't reported to the law, and the elders had no jurisdiction over LSM.

While technically true, the LSM was being operated and administered within the same building as the Church in Anaheim. (at least it was at the Ball Road location back in those days). Furthermore, and of greater importance, the abuse by Phillip Lee was perpetrated upon some sisters who, as members of the Church in Anaheim, were indeed under the "jurisdiction" of John Ingalls, Al Knoch and Godred Otuteye.

These brothers had every right and responsibility to look out for the well-being and safety of those sisters. Of course they found out rather quickly that Witness Lee had absolutely no care or concern for these sisters. He willingly and purposefully fed them to the wolf. And this was a wolf who had attacked the sheep again and again. AND WITNESS LEE WAS FULLY AWARE OF WHAT THE WOLF WAS DOING. But when you consider yourself the Acting God, Deputy Authority and Apostle of the first order, I guess you can justify anything.

For anyone to think that these abuses of sisters in the Local Church movement ended with the death of Witness Lee and his son Phillip, they are being just as deceived as those elders in Anaheim were 30 years ago. Movements of men based upon the person and work of a mere man are always and forever susceptible to the work of the fallen flesh of mere men. Fleshly men will always resist protections and safeguards put in place for the protection, safety and well-being of the most vulnerable in the flock....and this usually means women and children.
-

09-12-2018 09:39 AM

awareness

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

In 1977 Max Rapoport confronted Philip Lee about sexual immorality and he was thrown under the bus.
In 1988 John Ingalls confronted Philip Lee about sexual immorality and he was thrown under the bus.
And you tell us that as long as Philip Lee works for a certain Book Publisher, he can get away with anything?

Yes. It wasn't reported to the law, and the elders had no jurisdiction over LSM.

09-12-2018 09:34 AM

awareness

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Don't forget that women rape men too. I don't think it has anything to do with the curse of man ruling over women.

I can't believe you are claiming the rare exception of women raping men. How many Nun's have been accused of raping boys, compared to priests?

09-11-2018 07:06 PM

Nell

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

UntoHim,

Stop. Please. STOP!

First, there are no victims of sexual abuse in this forum who have posted anything.. and no one that anyone has verbally threatened or harassed. Nor would. That is fake news. Totally.

Second, you and Nell do not have a corner on this topic. You are not the only one who has been exposed to or or had to deal with it. It is a serious matter and should not be handled carelessly. Don’t brush me with further scarring the deep wounds of many girls, women, and sisters. That is a pathetic tactic on your part to silence me....so, if I question these accusations, if I ask for the evidence which is supposed to be so apparent, if I challenge the outrageous accusations against brothers in the Lord then I am further scarring girls who have been sexually abused?.... it is deeply disturbing that you even think that way. It’s not my questions, or ZNPs, or Evangelicals that further scar. Does that matter to you at all?

Third, over the top is not calling out falsehood. Over the top is calling consensual sex as sexual abuse. Over the top is accusing leadership in the local churches of sexual abuse, rape, and other serious crimes. It’s also libelous. There is no evidence posted in this forum that it is happening or is rampant as has been alleged.

Just to be clear, this is your forum UntoHim, and you can adjust the membership anyway you please... you are responsible for its content. I think you are making a mistake by allowing libelous content to stand unchallenged..... but nevertheless, I will not allow anyone to make accusations about what I said and what I did which are patently false nor will I keep my mouth shut about it when it happens to me... or others.. If remaining silent when falsely accused are your terms for participating in this forum then we can pretty much figure out how this will end.

Drake

UntoHim,

So here's the comparison post by Drake, which was the reason I brought this topic to the top. I suggest forum members compare the two and decide for yourself what you think.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake
Trapped,

In general you are describing a contrarian and indeed I may be just that in this forum. Not purposely, but rather my minority view will seem to be deliberately contrarian simply because it is a minority view.

But I can acknowledge the characterizations in your post no further than that. Reason is because your examples are very personal and extreme. Were someone to describe such an awful experience happening to them I would not respond as you suggest. First, no one can argue with ones personal experience for it is theirs. That is why I don’t and only offer a comparison with my own. Yet, I would not be so callous as to draw a personal comparison to sexual assault or the death of a loved one in the way you describe..... unless I had such an experience myself and sharing said experience would be supportive.

I know you meant well in hopes to offer me sound advice. I accept it in that spirit but you missed the mark in your chosen examples making further dialogue about it impossible for in so doing I would lend credibility to the extreme examples which I cannot.

Drake

09-11-2018 06:54 PM

Nell

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

...I wonder if being female is a curse? I'm don't mean they are cursed for being female, I'm saying they're cursed because of men. ...

You're close, Harold:
Gen. 3:14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

The serpent was cursed and that enraged him. So he retaliated against the woman.

Here's the way Jesse Penn-Lewis phrased it:
"Henceforth the story of the ages consists of the record of a war between these two seeds; the Seed of the woman--Christ and His redeemed--and the seed of the devil (See John 8: 44; 1 John 3: 10), right on to the furthermost point of the final committal of Satan to the lake of fire.

Henceforth it is also war by Satan upon the womanhood of the world, in malignant revenge for the verdict of the garden. War by the trampling down of women in all lands where the deceiver reigns. War upon women in Christian lands, by the continuance of his Eden method of misinterpreting the Word of God; insinuating into men's minds throughout all succeeding ages, that God pronounced a "curse" upon the woman, when in truth she was pardoned and blessed; and instigating men of the fallen race to carry out the supposed curse, which was in truth a curse upon the deceiver, and not the deceived one (Gen. 3: 14).

"I will put enmity between thee and the woman," said God, as well as between "thy seed and her seed," and this vindictive enmity of the hierarchy of evil to woman, and to believers, has not lessened in its intensity from that day."

Nell

09-11-2018 06:28 PM

Evangelical

Re: Whistleblower

Don't forget that women rape men too. I don't think it has anything to do with the curse of man ruling over women.

09-11-2018 11:00 AM

Ohio

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

The only one that I know of, where LC leaders could be accused of allowing it to flourish was, Witness Lee and his sons. Philip and Timothy had a long history of it. As with the one John Ingalls got involved with, their dad wouldn't stop it. That was the beginning of the end for JI, cuz he was lead elder, and he certainly wasn't going to allow it to flourish. But by virtue of the private company LSM, Witness and his kids were outside the LC, and therefore outside the province of the elders. So the leader of the "Recovery" is the one that allowed it to flourish.

In 1977 Max Rapoport confronted Philip Lee about sexual immorality and he was thrown under the bus.

In 1988 John Ingalls confronted Philip Lee about sexual immorality and he was thrown under the bus.

And you tell us that as long as Philip Lee works for a certain Book Publisher, he can get away with anything?

09-11-2018 09:50 AM

awareness

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

On a personal note, I have had a close family member confide in me about being raped by another close family member. It repulsed me to my core.

It repulses me to the core to hear about it.

I wonder if being female is a curse? I'm don't mean they are cursed for being female, I'm saying they're cursed because of men.

I can't tell you how deeply this disturbs me. Two little angels, 6 and 8 now, that I see when I see my grand children, are the sweetest little girls. A couple yrs ago I was asked to give one of them, the older one, a ride to my granddaughter's 1st birthday.

The two little girls live in Missouri. They were here for the party. Their mother was here with them. During the ride I asked the little girl where her daddy was, and she told me she didn't want to be with him. She then stunned me by telling me that he was touching her and her younger sister down here, and she pointed. This all came out when the little girls were caught doing it to a little boy.

That's why this disturbs me so deeply. It results in life long damage.

But this makes my point. That this sort of stuff happens everywhere, even in our families. Men have an appetite. Some can't control it.

I don't remember ever allowing it to flourish with the elders I knew in the LC.. I remember a gay issue in the c. in Detroit (Kangas lead). They didn't let it flourish when it happened. And there was one in Ft. Lauderdale. The elders knew about it, but they couldn't stop it. They did still allow the brother to lead the children. There's that. The brother eventually died of AIDS.

The only one that I know of, where LC leaders could be accused of allowing it to flourish was, Witness Lee and his sons. Philip and Timothy had a long history of it. As with the one John Ingalls got involved with, their dad wouldn't stop it. That was the beginning of the end for JI, cuz he was lead elder, and he certainly wasn't going to allow it to flourish. But by virtue of the private company LSM, Witness and his kids were outside the LC, and therefore outside the province of the elders. So the leader of the "Recovery" is the one that allowed it to flourish.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Untohim

Maybe there's a reason why Eve didn't go to Adam when the serpent told her all those lies....maybe she didn't thing[k] that he would believe her

Maybe you see it differently, but in Gen. 3:6 I see that Adam was right there with Eve and the serpent, but apparently just watching ... and listening. In any case, Adam wasn't tending the garden, or eating from any of the other trees, or the right tree. He was clearly complicit with Eve and the serpent.

09-10-2018 09:00 PM

Unregistered

Re: Whistleblower

Give it one year....minimum 3 stories of children sexually abused by members of the LC...that the elders knowingly covered up. It’s coming.

09-10-2018 06:13 PM

Drake

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

...AND THEY WILL BE GIVEN A VOICE WITHOUT BEING SUBJECT TO VERBAL HARASSMENT AND THREATS BY OTHER FORUM MEMBERS.

I think our friend Drake mentioned something about "delivery" lately. Well the "delivery" of what has been posted by ZNP and Drake on this thread has been over-the-top. The tone and tenor, especially as it has been directed at Nell, stinks. It smacks of the typical male/brother insensitivity that is so prevalent in the Local Church. The nitpicking. The parsing of every jot and tittle. It's petty, and even worse, it ads to the deep wounds still scaring so many girls/women/sisters.....-

09-10-2018 04:30 PM

ZNPaaneah

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Maybe there's a reason why Eve didn't go to Adam when the serpent told her all those lies....maybe she didn't thing that he would believe her

My responses have nothing to do with "not believing" the accusations. If I didn't believe it I wouldn't have posted or asked a question. I believe the proper response when we learn someone has sinned is to confront them. If there was more to the matter of sexual abuse and cover up by the elders that I was not aware of I would act on that information. That was the motive in asking for something actionable. That is what the term "whistleblower" refers to (providing information on a person involved in illegal activity).

You seem very sensitive to those who have been abused and yet completely tone deaf to those who are accused based on inference and innuendo. I understand your desire to protect the victims, but that sentiment was also motivating elders in the Local church who were dealing with these same issues. That does not mean they were allowing the sins to "flourish". That also is the history of the Local Church going all the way back to Shanghai and the elders that excommunicated WN.

(Finally there is an issue with your use of language which is causing confusion. The term "sexual abuse" is a legal term, but you are not using it that way when you refer to WN. WN's mistress would not be "sexual abuse" unless she was an unwilling partner or a minor. That is confusing. It seems you are using the term to refer to fornication and adultery. Your story of rape is sexual abuse. PL and your story are about sexual abuse, WN and BM were about adultery.)

09-10-2018 04:00 PM

UntoHim

Re: Whistleblower

ZNP and others.
The sexual abuse problems didn't start with Phillip Lee and they certainly didn't end with Phillip Lee. It is now obvious to all but the most truest of True Believers in the Local Church that this dynamic most certainly started with the founder of the movement, Watchman Nee. Most of us with a little gray hair and decades of experience with the Local Church don't have a lot of doubts now about the things Dr. Lily Hsu detailed in her book. Everything rings true - The absolute adoration and undiscerned devotion to a man of flesh and blood almost universally ends in the abject abuse of the followers of such a man. In many cases the women/sisters in such movements end up paying the highest price. Such is the case with the Local Church of Witness Lee.

As I have clearly and strongly stated a number of times over the years, I will not allow the revealing of or discussion of intimate details regarding this kind of abuse. Members are free to PM each other, but for the sake of our readers I don't see the need for details on a public forum. The most leeway in this matter will be given to the actual victims themselves. If I am satisfied that they are genuine, then these women/sisters will be given a voice here on LocalChurchDiscusions. Additionally, those with first hand knowledge, by direct communication with the victims or first hand knowledge of any abuse will also be given a voice. AND THEY WILL BE GIVEN A VOICE WITHOUT BEING SUBJECT TO VERBAL HARASSMENT AND THREATS BY OTHER FORUM MEMBERS.

I think our friend Drake mentioned something about "delivery" lately. Well the "delivery" of what has been posted by ZNP and Drake on this thread has been over-the-top. The tone and tenor, especially as it has been directed at Nell, stinks. It smacks of the typical male/brother insensitivity that is so prevalent in the Local Church. The nitpicking. The parsing of every jot and tittle. It's petty, and even worse, it ads to the deep wounds still scaring so many girls/women/sisters who have been abused.

On a personal note, I have had a close family member confide in me about being raped by another close family member. It repulsed me to my core. And when I asked her why she didn't come forward when it happened: "I DID NOT THINK ANY OF THE MEN IN THE FAMILY WOULD BELIEVE ME." I cried in shame for days. I was one of those men. I felt shame and regret that this dear girl could not come to me when it happened. By God's mercy and grace, and no thanks to me or any other of the men who should have known, this girl has recovered as best she could. She is married now and has a family of her own. She has also turned to the Lord and to fellowship with a healthy group of believers. Thank God for this.

Maybe there's a reason why Eve didn't go to Adam when the serpent told her all those lies....maybe she didn't think that he would believe her

09-10-2018 02:00 PM

ZNPaaneah

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

To ZNP and Drake and all forum members.

My first post was in #290, I highlighted Nell’s comment about “responding to actual victims of sexual abuse” and simply asked for Nell to point me in the direction of these quotes and victim’s testimonies. I asked because I had respect for this issue.

Nell responded: “The entire Whistleblower thread is about sexual abuse by the Local Church leadership and is based on testimonies of posters on this forum and documentation from John Ingall's book.” (Nell Post 292)

Awareness seemed to echo this in posts 294 and 296: “My point is that there are always all kinds of hidden things going in every locality, every group, every church, and every religion, pretty much everywhere. I was shocked when I found out about it, and what the elders knew -- and didn't know.”

In Post #302 I looked at the posts that Nell said were testimonies of sexual abuse by the Local Church Leadership. One post quoted happiernow saying “the church allows sexual predators to flourish. I have experienced this first hand.” So we have posts from three different posters alleging that elders in the Local Church knew of sexual predators and allowed them to “flourish”. I think this is a very big deal, not unlike what we recently saw with the Catholic Church. I feel it is our responsibility to tell those we see sinning of the Lord's judgement. When I heard of EM's involvement in this I sought him out and talked to him directly about this. I wanted to know what "Local church leaders" they were talking about and if I had responsibility to speak to them. That is not "coldness" or "disrespect".

I was trying to get to the bottom of this, I thought Nell might have missed a testimony, or perhaps Nell would have said that it was part of the testimony that was deleted. In post #303 I also floated a fig leaf that “Local Church Leadership” referred to WL and the puppet elders in Anaheim.

But Nell took this post and used it to infer I was suggesting we "wink" at PL's sin. There is no basis for that conclusion. I may have mentioned PL in at least 20 posts on this forum and in everyone I have condemned him as an evil and lascivious man.

09-10-2018 10:22 AM

Drake

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

What about today? There are predators in the Local Church TODAY who are sexually abusing women who are vulnerable to Lee's "ministry"......

Until sexual sin, sexual abuse, molestation, rape, in the Local Churches is exposed and the offenders are excommunicated publicly that all may fear, you don't have a leg to stand on. If you know it's happening and do nothing, it's on you. Until you confront leadership about this ongoing sin against the Body of Christ, don't talk about some kind of fictitious "higher bar".

Nell

-1

UntoHim,

I provided a very specific example of the claim Nell made of Drake and that claim was false... that is how she reopened this thread. If my characterization was incorrect then how would you characterize it? It was not an opinion, it was a claim that I did something that everyone can read and see that I did not.

Nevertheless, my characterization pales in comparison to the inflammatory and libelous statements made above. Those are the comments that you as the owner and moderator of this forum should give a closer look.... and personally I think diligent moderation should be applied there.

So, I’ll stand down though your uneven response remains unresolved.

Drake

09-10-2018 09:40 AM

UntoHim

Re: Whistleblower

To ZNP and Drake and all forum members.

Tone down the rhetoric. Any further posts accusing another forum member of "bearing false witness" will be deleted. Both of you are showing the coldness, insensitivity and disrespect for women/sisters that the Local Church of Witness Lee is infamous for. Shame on you both. Both of you are being argumentative, insensitive and petty towards Nell. There is a context in which she is claiming that Local Church leadership is responsible for the sexual abuse experienced by quite a number of sisters/women. Some have posted on this forum. One in particular was by a sister who went by the moniker "happiernow":

Quote:

Originally Posted by happiernow

The church allows sexual predators to flourish. I have experienced this first hand. Does anyone else have experience with this?

She had originally posted a lengthy description of the abuse. She then realized it had too much personal information and deleted it, or had me delete it for her, I can't recall which. In any event it was horrific to say the least. THIS WAS DIRECT FIRST HAND TESTIMONY.

To say that what is being discussed here on this thread is "hearsay" is absolutely absurd. It's an old Witness Lee/Local Church trick, thrown out as a shameless red herring to avoid addressing real, genuine experiences and concerns by current and former members, especially women/sisters. It may have worked for the Acting God /Oracle et al, but that duck won't fly around these parts.

Again. Let's tone down the rhetoric. Calm down. Take a deep breath. Maybe a nice cup of herbal tea. TONE IT DOWN OR I WILL TONE IT DOWN FOR YOU.
**As always, I am not including myself as "any other forum member". Me and my posts are fair game. Call me a liar. Challenge me on the open forum that I am bearing witness. Go for it. Call me an unfair moderator. Have at it.
But stop attacking and accusing any other forum member of lying or bearing false witness.
-

09-10-2018 07:20 AM

ZNPaaneah

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

Does that mean the sexual abuse reported by John Ingalls is OK? Not to worry. It's everywhere so...chill.

What is definitely not OK is to twist someone's words, quote out of context and then ascribe such a nasty response. I have made it clear repeatedly that PL was "not OK". I repeated that "I had condemned PL to the uttermost". You are distorting my comment. The church is a hospital, what is foolish is to think you will have a church anywhere without sinners and fleshly people. PL was not even a member of the church. You can second guess the way in which the elders dealt with PL, and with Ben M. But saying that the elders allowed "sexual abuse" to flourish is ugly. Hope was an elder, JI was an elder. Those are the two testimonies of elders showing their response and there is no justification based on their response to conclude that the elders were complicit in allowing sexual abuse.

But would it be OK for me to say that you committed the crimes that PL did without any supporting evidence? No, that is called libel. You blamed Local Church Leadership for the crimes of PL. Based on what? PL was not Local Church Leadership. JI was. Are you blaming JI for PL? If so, give us the evidence. You pointed to a number of testimonies on this thread, none of them provided any evidence of "sexual abuse" by "local church leadership".

So, to answer your question. No, PL's abuse is not OK. Therefore why do we need to make up false charges? Since we all agree that PL's abuse was heinous and involved sufficient supporting evidence to be deemed credible this also means that the apology letter from the puppet elders that replaced JI, etal, was also heinous. I don't feel that the behavior of those elders can be used to condemn "Local Church leadership" as a whole, but if you want to throw shade on those particular elders go ahead. What I find far more relevant is that this is the undeniable evidence that ties WL into PL's sins.

09-10-2018 07:17 AM

Drake

Re: Whistleblower

I’m glad Nell brought this thread back to the top because in reviewing the arc of the discourse it brought to the forefront once again a recurring practice among a few members of this forum....

First, everyone is entitled to their own opinion but not their own facts. Opinion springs out of a belief system and not necessarily based in fact. An informed opinion will try to bolster ones opinion with some facts but at the end of the day, it is still opinion.

Facts are what actually happened but may or may not necessarily be factually based. For instance, a dissenting brother may have written a letter , that is a fact, but the content of his letter may be just an opinion based on little or no facts. Just because someone wrote a letter does not automatically mean the content is factual. Or for example, a post in this thread referenced a sister who was molested as a young girl, a link was provided, but the sister said straightforwardly that no one in the local churches perpetrated that abuse upon her. Therefore, that lent no credence to the basic charge of this thread that sexual abuse is rampant in the local churches and yet the implication is foisted upon us by innuendo.

Which brings me to this next point that I find sorrow in having to say to fellow Christians. Bearing false witness. It occurred in this thread in two ways. First the outright allegation by Nell that there is sexual abuse among local church leadership and which charge ZNPs due diligence proved false in #302....then the allegation that I, Drake, was dismissive of actual sexual abuse accounts of women that have testified and posted on this forum by Nell #289...... again, this is bearing false witness as no women who were actually sexually abused posted here and therefore I never did as was alleged nor would dismiss such a tragic incident. Both of these allegations were simply the bearing of false witness and should never proceed from the mouth of a Christian and yet the scripture says plainly from the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.

And finally there is another destructive bearing of false witness presented in this thread... that of bearing false witness through innuendo. Perhaps this is the worst kind.

If the reader cares to understand my view on this serious matter and my challenges to the falsehoods presented in the examples above then start with #44 and follow my posts through this thread. Or jump to #115 and follow the duck after that.

Thanks,
Drake

09-10-2018 07:12 AM

awareness

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

Does that mean the sexual abuse reported by John Ingalls is OK? Not to worry. It's everywhere so...chill.

I think John Ingalls gave us plenty of evidence. The women who posted told us what they could. Believe them or don't.

Regardless, I've said everything on this topic that I intend to say. I don't need to convince anyone of anything. I blew the whistle. That was my intention.

Nell

If LSM was a secular company Philip would have been out on his ear in a flash ... #MeToo ...

But Lee had experience covering for Nee's sexual exploits. So covering for his son's exploits was just doing business as usual.

Lee was too uncomely and homely for sexual exploits. He went for the money. He went for none-of-your-business-LSM, and sales -- So let Philip and Timothy have their fun, as long as money is made.

Back when Lee started charging for conferences, tickets for Lee were more expensive than tickets for top-draw Rock bands. Lee the Rock star. And hey, let's make churches buy our materials.

So we had sex and money, but no Rock and Roll.

I'm ashamed to admit that, I was just as much a sucker as those joining NXIVM today, or Scientology.

09-10-2018 06:10 AM

Nell

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I agree with Awareness that it is absurd to think that in a church fellowship of tens of thousands of believers you are not going to have sins of this nature taking place. I completely disagree with the characterization of "sexual abuse by the Local Church leadership". We have not been given any evidence of that on this thread.

09-09-2018 06:44 PM

awareness

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by eDh22

I identify with just about all you said above eDh22.

When I first 'joined' the local church I could sing "I'm so happy in this lovely place" and feel it and mean it. Back then I was discovering God's eternal purpose, and diving into it.

I diligently absorbed and sucked in everything I could by Nee and Lee. Then, as I got ever more and deeper involved -- with the soon to be golden boy, Kangas, if he wasn't already golden -- I started to see contradictions to what I was reading in their books going on. But I still believed I was in God's eternal purpose and trusted that it was coming from Gods' man.

But as I saw more and more contradictions, I couldn't just let it go and keep my mouth shut.

And irony of ironies, eventually I was accused of "using Lee's works to destroy Lee's works." In other words, holding Lee to his past teachings to destroy his present new and improved teachings, or something like that. It was crazy logic to me. It came to a head, and I got drummed out.

So how's it going for you eDh22?

09-09-2018 10:57 AM

Ohio

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by eDh22

One almost comical example was when fairly new sister gave a testimony that was, I thought quite unintentionally, "outside the party lines", and was very publicly obliterated. I remember my strong feeling of justification ("that's what happens when you don't read from the Life Studies!") being mixed with a whisper of envy ("but maybe now she is free"), watching her walk alone out the meeting hall door for what I knew would her last time.

Publicly ambushed by the LC version of PC police?

09-09-2018 10:32 AM

eDh22

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

In any moment of decision, the best thing you can do is the right thing, the next best thing is the wrong thing, and the worst thing you can do is nothing. — Teddy Roosevelt

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

I would not tell anyone what to do, but I would like to encourage those who were abused in the Local Churches to consider their options today. Think about the others who come after you. Pray about it.

When I was meeting with the LCs and the hymn "I'm so happy in this lovely place" was called, I would laugh and roll my eyes. I wasn't "happy" and this place wasn't "lovely" but that's not why I was there. I believed that the Lord's Recovery was the one true way. I wasn't particularly fond of the saints in any of the localities in which I had lived and I was comfortable maintaining a slight unspoken disagreement with our local elders and with Anaheim, but prided myself in being silent and unshaken from the true way of the Lord's Recovery, no matter what.

I'd dare to say that human behavior ranging from wacky to dangerous can be found in any gathering of humans, and that fear of confrontation is a fairly universal human sentiment, so my relative state of self-induced subjugation, while arguably part of LC enculturation, is likely being repeated day in and day out in various situations around the globe.

It took years before I allowed myself to recognize that I was existing in a state of avoidance. I was exhausted from parsing through a range of quality of teachings and behavior of the leadership but not addressing them with the saints, because of my fear of being cut off. I had seen so many brothers and sisters, some beloved, some less so but still, dismissed from the community over the years. One almost comical example was when fairly new sister gave a testimony that was, I thought quite unintentionally, "outside the party lines", and was very publicly obliterated. I remember my strong feeling of justification ("that's what happens when you don't read from the Life Studies!") being mixed with a whisper of envy ("but maybe now she is free"), watching her walk alone out the meeting hall door for what I knew would her last time.

This thread has been helpful to me. What was really my life's intension at the time? Was it affected by a lack of self-respect or by too much self-consideration? Did I allow an organization or principle to become my "false idol"? In my pride of being steadfast, who or what was I betraying?

In contrast with - "For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind" 2 Timothy 1:7 (NKJV)

09-08-2018 03:37 PM

ZNPaaneah

Re: Whistleblower

In any moment of decision, the best thing you can do is the right thing, the next best thing is the wrong thing, and the worst thing you can do is nothing. — Teddy Roosevelt

With both Ben M. and Philip L, you can argue that various elders in the Local church did not do the right thing. In both cases it was clearly "a moment of decision" and in both cases the elders were clearly offended and acted in a way to respond to the evidence of sin. PL would not have been so heinous had they not "done nothing" for so long. Still, it is slanderous to say that the Anaheim elders allowed sin to flourish. JI and the rest of them had a moment of decision. They sought fellowship and I think the response they got from RG and BP was reprehensible, still it was ultimately under their authority and they did the right thing.

No doubt the puppet elders that replaced them were culpable for their letter of apology.

As for Ben M., again you can argue that they ultimately did "the wrong thing" which is the "second best option". Immediately calling for the elders to meet and fellowship was the right thing. The reaction of the elders was the right thing. Involving WL in the fellowship was the right thing. Following his advice was certainly an understandable decision, though in hindsight was the wrong thing, still it was far better than doing nothing.

I agree with Awareness that it is absurd to think that in a church fellowship of tens of thousands of believers you are not going to have sins of this nature taking place. I completely disagree with the characterization of "sexual abuse by the Local Church leadership". We have not been given any evidence of that on this thread.

09-08-2018 10:22 AM

ZNPaaneah

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

The entire Whistleblower thread is about sexual abuse by the Local Church leadership and is based on testimonies of posters on this forum and documentation from John Ingall's book. If you're interested, review this topic.

I have looked at the posts you say are direct testimonies of sexual abuse.

#27 — Ben McPherson's divorce. The complaint in this account is not about the response of the elders involved but in the advice that was given by WL and then followed which required them to lie when asked about Ben. There is no allegation of sexual abuse (the term refers to molestation, or unwanted sexual behavior, usually by force). Since Ben had an affair with a married woman she was not a minor. Since they both subsequently were married there is no evidence in this testimony of sexual abuse. Adultery, yes. Sexual abuse, no.

#31 — This post simply asks this question: The church allows sexual predators to flourish. I have experienced this first hand. Does anyone else have experience with this? I never experienced this and would certainly not respond to a vague claim of this without specific evidence.

#32 — abuse? I am not clear what the sexual abuse is that this post is referring to.

#112 — vague (PL). Everyone on this forum has condemned PL to the uttermost, myself included. However, this post is vague. However, it is clearly a testimony of sexual abuse. But I would never consider PL as "Local Church Leadership". You can say he was LSM leadership, but to my knowledge he did not actively participate in the Local Church.

#120 — I will make it clear that nobody within the LC had molested me personally but I do know some who were by LC members. This post is a second hand account. It is not a direct testimony, it is considered hearsay. Second, even as hearsay it does not allege sexual abuse by LC leadership.

In conclusion, I have looked at every single post you have referenced and there is not one about "sexual abuse by Local church leadership". What you have is an adulterous elder, and sexual abuse by LSM leader. You also have hearsay that someone knows someone who was molested by someone in the Local church (but no allegation that the abuser was part of the Local church leadership).

09-08-2018 09:20 AM

awareness

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

The posts of those who experienced abuse (including the John Ingalls book) are: #27, #31, #32, #112 and #120. These posts contain links to the source posts.

Nell

Thank you Nell. I read every one of them. And I call foul on my deleted post. It was not off topic, and it wasn't foul.

I still say I don't doubt the stories. I could tell ones that I know of.

09-08-2018 08:18 AM

awareness

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

I don’t, and neither do you. That’s the point. You said you don’t doubt the stories. There are no stories in this thread to doubt.

Drake

See. I didn't read any of it. But I'm glad you did. I must have misread between the lines, when Nell reintroduced this thread, bringing it to the top. It sounded like sisters telling of sexual abuse.

By the way, I explained myself in a response post, basically blaming the flesh, but I guess Untohim thought it too "R" rated, and deleted it. Can't blame him. I use to be an uptight Christian too, concerning matters of the flesh. But to be fair, he may have just considered it off topic. And it was. I, me, am obviously off topic.

But I must remark. In the local church, I found the atmospheric sensitivities to things R-rated so oppressive that it discouraged victims from being able to talk about it.

It's those stories that I don't doubt.

BTW, I've got a screen shot of that deleted post. if you like I could send you a copy of it ... or to anyone else. Just ask.

Now, what's this Whistleblower thread all about? Should I steal the time to read it? or is it anticlimactic?

09-08-2018 07:17 AM

Nell

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

In a rare moment of agreement with Nell I too encourage anyone interested in what Drake thinks to read the posts with the duck avatar straight through.... they are easy to spot starting with #44.

You will also notice that Nells assertion about actual victims.....

“actual victims of sexual abuse in the Local Churches as these women have testified, in writing, on this forum “....

.... are nonexistent. No actual victims of sexual abuse will be found herein, none have written here, ...... and I, Drake, have never corresponded with an actual victim of sexual abuse in this thread or this forum as Nell claims... they simply do not exist.

Nell has asked you to compare what I have said and I join her in the request.....asking for your due diligence I challenge anyone who thinks I have to show us the post. Just follow the duck in this thread and tell us what you find.

Drake

OK. Duly noted. Let me rephrase. Take a look at the posts of those who experienced sexual abuse, including those documented by John Ingalls, and how "the duck" responded (quacked?).

If you only "follow the duck", you will have a one-sided view of the topic. I did a quick read of the entire thread...it doesn't take long. Mostly I noted that the Duck, in his #44 (above) tried to change the subject and make it about how he would handle the reports of abuse. But please don't take my word for it. Read BOTH SIDES for yourself and then you decide. Never take someone else's "interpretation" of what was said. Go to the source.

The posts of those who experienced abuse (including the John Ingalls book) are: #27, #31, #32, #112 and #120. These posts contain links to the source posts.

Nell

09-08-2018 06:13 AM

Drake

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

I'm bringing this "Whistleblower" thread to the top because of Drake's comments on the "Self Serving Doctrine of Lee" thread. Specifically:

If you look at Drakes comments on this thread, you can compare for yourself what Drake SAYS he would do, and what he SAYS in responding to actual victims of sexual abuse in the Local Churches as these women have testified, in writing, on this forum.

Then you can decide for yourself the veracity of Drake's comments above.

Nell

In a rare moment of agreement with Nell I too encourage anyone interested in what Drake thinks to read the posts with the duck avatar straight through.... they are easy to spot starting with #44.

You will also notice that Nells assertion about actual victims.....

“actual victims of sexual abuse in the Local Churches as these women have testified, in writing, on this forum “....

.... are nonexistent. No actual victims of sexual abuse will be found herein, none have testified or written here, ...... and I, Drake, have never corresponded with an actual victim of sexual abuse in this thread or this forum as Nell claims... they simply do not exist.

Nell has asked you to compare what I have said and I join her in the request.....asking for your due diligence I challenge anyone who thinks I have spoken to actual victims then show us the post. Just follow the duck in this thread and tell us what you find.

Drake

09-08-2018 04:55 AM

Drake

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

If you have one in mind I'd be glad to discuss it with you.

I don’t, and neither do you. That’s the point. You said you don’t doubt the stories. There are no stories in this thread to doubt.

Drake

09-07-2018 07:09 PM

awareness

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

What stories don't you doubt, awareness?

Which ones in this thread?

Thanks
Drake

I was hoping to get around the details. My point is that there are always all kinds of hidden things going in every locality, every group, every church, and every religion, pretty much everywhere. I was shocked when I found out about it, and what the elders knew -- and didn't know. Philip, Timothy, and Nee, aren't the first and only ones.

The urges and drives of the flesh, the strength of that are equal to those of our drive for food, water and air, is persistently relentlessly strong (Paul's law of the members). Nothing has been able to stop them, or put an end to them. Sorry. Unfortunately. They win a lot of the time. Why do you think we have a population explosion?

But thanks for asking. If you have one in mind I'd be glad to discuss it with you. I fear we'll both suffer equally, for reasons such as, not being an eyewitness, not hearing it firsthand from the victim, or not even hearing the perpetrator brag about it.

The truth is, I'm sad for the sisters. It disturbs me. And I know some gay stuff happens, between both males and females. I knew some. In fact I know of closeted gays in the LC right now. But let's face it, it's mostly sisters that suffer.

And that just shouldn't be (any of it). It just shouldn't be even in the secular world, let alone in the Christian world, and even less, I would think, in the local churches (much given, much expected).

Lo and behold ... turns out aren't any of us angels, unless it's the bad ones.

Rom 3:10* As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:*

09-07-2018 01:11 PM

Drake

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

Thanks Nell. I am interested but don't have time to read over 290 posts. I don't doubt the stories at all.

What stories don't you doubt, awareness?

Which ones in this thread?

Thanks
Drake

09-07-2018 11:39 AM

awareness

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

Should a response to a hypothetical (Trapped's hypothetical) have a different response than a real but similar situation (the Whistleblower thread)?

The entire Whistleblower thread is about sexual abuse by the Local Church leadership and is based on testimonies of posters on this forum and documentation from John Ingall's book. If you're interested, review this topic.

Thanks Nell. I am interested but don't have time to read over 290 posts. I don't doubt the stories at all.

After leaving the LC I talked to many others that left, and found out lots of immoral and unethical things that were going on, while I had my head in the clouds.

What's sad is, prolly these stories are just the tip of the iceberg. It's especially sad that believers can act no different than unbelievers.

09-07-2018 10:42 AM

Nell

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by leastofthese

I’m not sure about others, but I’ve read posts on this forum for a couple years - comments like those you’ve quoted don’t go unnoticed.

What does that mean?

09-07-2018 10:42 AM

Nell

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I don't understand what you are saying. The quote of Drake you provide is not a response to actual victims but rather to hypothetical scenarios. Can you also provide the quotes to actual victims testimonies.

09-07-2018 08:40 AM

leastofthese

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

I’m not sure about others, but I’ve read posts on this forum for a couple years - comments like those you’ve quoted don’t go unnoticed.

09-07-2018 07:44 AM

ZNPaaneah

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

I'm bringing this "Whistleblower" thread to the top because of Drake's comments on the "Self Serving Doctrine of Lee" thread. Specifically:
If you look at Drakes comments on this thread, you can compare for yourself what Drake SAYS he would do, and what he SAYS in responding to actual victims of sexual abuse in the Local Churches as these women have testified, in writing, on this forum.
Then you can decide for yourself the veracity of Drake's comments above.
Nell

09-07-2018 07:18 AM

Nell

Re: Whistleblower

I'm bringing this "Whistleblower" thread to the top because of Drake's comments on the "Self Serving Doctrine of Lee" thread. Specifically:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Trapped,

In general you are describing a contrarian and indeed I may be just that in this forum. Not purposely, but rather my minority view will seem to be deliberately contrarian simply because it is a minority view.

But I can acknowledge the characterizations in your post no further than that. Reason is because your examples are very personal and extreme. Were someone to describe such an awful experience happening to them I would not respond as you suggest. First, no one can argue with ones personal experience for it is theirs. That is why I don’t and only offer a comparison with my own. Yet, I would not be so callous as to draw a personal comparison to sexual assault or the death of a loved one in the way you describe..... unless I had such an experience myself and sharing said experience would be supportive.

I know you meant well in hopes to offer me sound advice. I accept it in that spirit but you missed the mark in your chosen examples making further dialogue about it impossible for in so doing I would lend credibility to the extreme examples which I cannot.

Drake

If you look at Drakes comments on this thread, you can compare for yourself what Drake SAYS he would do, and what he SAYS in responding to actual victims of sexual abuse in the Local Churches as these women have testified, in writing, on this forum.

Then you can decide for yourself the veracity of Drake's comments above.

Nell

02-24-2018 02:27 PM

Steel

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koinonia

Is the LC included? Or is this one of those "three fingers pointing back at you" deals?

Absolutely... In both cases.

Any "Christian" can be found in, and express... All that is related to the "...ity..." suffix.

And this reality is even confirmed in the writings of published LSM resources... In fact, it was just a few months ago that we were reading ministry that spoke about religion being in every human... Including those of us reading the ministry.

02-24-2018 02:27 PM

Steel

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Huh?
But God sees no iniquity in Israel?

God knows the source of iniquity in the creature he determine was very good.

02-24-2018 02:27 PM

Koinonia

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steel

Yep... For sure when looking at the entirety of folly Christianity.

Is the LC included? Or is this one of those "three fingers pointing back at you" deals?

02-24-2018 02:25 PM

Ohio

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steel

Yep... For sure when looking at the entirety of folly Christianity.

Huh?

But God sees no iniquity in Israel?

02-24-2018 02:19 PM

Steel

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Sounds all too familiar.

Yep... For sure when looking at the entirety of folly Christianity.

02-24-2018 10:55 AM

Ohio

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

Godly Response to Abuse in the Christian Environment
(also called GRACE or G.R.A.C.E) is a Virginia 501(c)(3) non-profit organization formed by Basyle "Boz" Tchividjian to assist evangelical groups in confronting sexual abuse, particularly child sexual abuse, within their organizations.[1][2] Tchividjian is the grandson of Billy Graham and a law professor at Liberty University, who formerly worked as a prosecutor on sexual abuse cases.[2]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godly_...an_Environment

Nell, thanks for this post. I looked at the Wiki article, which interested me:

Quote:

In the early 2000s, Tchividjian became convinced that Protestant institutions had not properly addressed incidents of sexual abuse, incidents that he believed would eventually lead to scandals similar to those that had damaged the Catholic Church.

In Tchividjian's view, the legalistic, authoritarian culture of some Protestant organizations was particularly susceptible to what he called "spiritual abuse" — the attempt of religious leaders to silence victims or convince them that they deserved their abuse Tchividjian has stated that, "When it comes to child sexual abuse, too many churches and Christian organizations prefer to sacrifice individuals in order to protect themselves. We end up living out the very antithesis of the Gospel that we preach. The consequences are devastating."

GRACE began in 2003 when a reporter called Tchividjian about a case of sexual abuse mishandled by a pastor.

Sounds all too familiar.

.

02-24-2018 09:49 AM

awareness

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

I'm friends with a sister who as a young child was sexually molested by her father ... a Baptist missionary in Pakistan.

Tchividjian is right. It really screw up her head for the rest of her life. It needs to stop, and covering it up only makes it worse.

Thanks Nell.

02-24-2018 09:12 AM

Nell

Re: Whistleblower

02-20-2018 09:57 AM

Nell

Re: Whistleblower

My Larry Nassar Testimony Went Viral. But There’s More to the Gospel Than Forgiveness.

Article in Christianity Today, January, 2018

Former gymnast Rachael Denhollander spent years discovering God’s perspective on sexual abuse. Then her advocacy for survivors cost her her church.

INTERVIEW BY MORGAN LEE| JANUARY 31, 2018

"...Yes. Church is one of the least safe places to acknowledge abuse because the way it is counseled is, more often than not, damaging to the victim. There is an abhorrent lack of knowledge for the damage and devastation that sexual assault brings. It is with deep regret that I say the church is one of the worst places to go for help. That’s a hard thing to say, because I am a very conservative evangelical, but that is the truth. There are very, very few who have ever found true help in the church. ... " (emphasis added)

This is an excellent interview by one of the Nassar victims and the response of the church to what happened to her.

Nell

02-19-2018 10:11 AM

Steel

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

Who told you that? This forum is not "a" church. It is THE church. The universal church.

How would you know... Do you know that all who participate on this forum are born again eternally saved believers who are in Christ? . . . Has there been some sort of guaranteed authentication processing carried out? . . . No, Nell... This online forum, and any other online forum is... NOT... a gathering of the church that is in Christ... In the sense/context spoken to in scripture... Which is that of being in the physical company of another/others.

So your above speaking in absolutely in error.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

The word just says "tell it to the church" with no distinction on who it is that represents the church in this matter. In fact, this forum is precisely the members of the Lord's church who need this information. We are witnesses to the whole matter. We care more for those abused than those believers who have no knowledge of Lee and his sordid sinful behavior. Anyone who has ever sat through a Witness Lee message, or purchased a Living Stream Ministry publication has a vested interested in this matter...that is...THE CHURCH.

Nell

And above we see more error... Which is understandable... As error can only produce more error.

First... The context related to "...tell it to the church.." is that of the related local church in which the matter was taking place... Second... Contrary to what Nell says above... Not everyone here "... are witnesses to the whole matter."... Third... Nell is out of place to say that "...We care more for those abused than those believers who have no knowledge of Lee and his sordid sinful behavior."... Fourth... To have a "...vested interest..." in any matter is to be of the thinking that you have some sort of investment in a matter, and are interested in gaining a profit from this investment.

Now the first three errors of Nell made clear... The fourth is what I'd like to speak on as it concernes a matter that I have been considering before the Lord regarding brothers and sisters who participate on this website... This matter being... Why do we do it?... What is our "...vested interest..."?

Two possible reasonins could be that... 1... We hold to the belief that we have in some way "...invested..." something of our person (belief, trust, effort, time, money) in related things and feel obligated to protect our investment... and 2... We hold to the belief that we in some way need to realize a profit from this investment we have made.

Thing is... As slaves... We are in error to think we have made any type of investment in anything... Or that we are obligated to protect it... And also... That we need to realize a profit from anything that we are, or have been, a part of... The only one who has a "...vested interest..." and has the right to receive a profit is the Master of us slaves.

And notice in Nell's above speaking is nothing that points to this truth... None of her speaking points to Christ Jesus... Just herself and the church.

Sure... She does use the term "...the Lord's church..." but it is in context to the members of His church... Not Him... At least in a direct sense.

I wonder if Nell, or others here, have considered what the Lord's... Our Lord's... Vested interest is in this website... And what He desires to profit from it.

02-19-2018 09:31 AM

Steel

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

Did Lee hear the brothers? Did he hear the church? There is no expiration date to "tell it to the church". . . . When a sinning brother refuse to hear the church, your responsibility for reconciliation is over. A heathen or publican needs the gospel. However, the church's responsibility to "hear" did not end. The church should remain in fear of this sinning brother.

Nell... Are you... Being just one member of the Lord's one church... That is made up of tens of millions/billions (who knows) of members... Hearing the church?

Point a finger... Three more always pointing back at you.

BTW... I've forgiven your insult... But it's up to you to repent so that you may enter into this blessing.

02-19-2018 09:23 AM

Steel

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

What really stood out to me by this post of yours is this expression "long standing offenses". It has been my impression that many within the leadership of the Local Churches and LSM feel that there is some kind of expiration date on offenses. My understanding is that you need to repent of offenses and then they are forgiven...

Now hold on a second here...

The Lord's death on the cross was/is, according to scripture, just that... Forgiveness that was given before anyone who had been forgiven had repented... The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world... Which was before humanity sinned... Are you saying that before you were forgiven by God you had to repent of your offences? . . . I hope that's not what you are saying.

Forgiving someone should take place immediately upon our (the one who has suffered the offence) turning to the Lord regarding the related matter... How else can we turn to the Lord out of a pure heart? . . . Or does scripture tell us that we can turn to the Lord even as we hold to offended feelings? . . . Surely it doesn't. . . . It is not a matter of "...you need to repent of offenses and then they are forgiven..." . . . It is a matter of to be able to enter into the forgiveness that has already been given... You need to repent. . . . Not repenting prevents you from receiving what blessing is already there for you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

You don't just sweep them under the rug and then claim "that was a long time ago".

It is not a matter of sweeping or not sweeping "...under the rug and then claim "that was a long time ago"... Which smacks of fallen natural man reasonings... It is a matter of abiding in the Lord, and expressing the Lord... The matter regarding Phillip Lee... WAS... a long time ago... Check any calendar... Thirty years is a long time ago... Thirty years is pretty much a generation (or longer)... People have been born and are now 30 years old, and this matter is still being discussed... And worse... People are still holding to their offended feelings regarding it... How the Lord must mourn this.

The above made clear... The Lord is obviously allowing this matter to be held to and discussed by some... As He could easily shut it down if He so desired... So what should really be our consideration is, "Lord, what is it that you are after that you have allowed this matter not to die?"

Perhaps the Lord would remind us of this scripture...

John 9:1-3... "And as He passed by, He saw man blind from birth... And His disciples asked Him, saying, Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he would be born blind?... Jesus answered, Neither has this man sinned nor his parents, but he was born so, that the works of God might be manifested in him."

02-19-2018 09:06 AM

Drake

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

Please note the title of this thread: Whistleblower. The objective of this thread is to blow the whistle on unrighteousness behavior in the church. You are the one trying to make it something never intended.

Perhaps I will send this link to the Dallas Morning News, the Fort Worth Star Telegram, the Houston Chronicle, the Austin Statesman, the Los Angeles Times...any one else you want to include? I will include the LSM and let them know that you insisted on reporting crimes. Of course the statute has run on the older ones and possibly the ones posted on this forum. We’ll see.

Nell

You mean you never meant to allege criminal activity?

If you are doing it because criminal activity is happening then what choice do you have?

Drake

02-19-2018 09:00 AM

Steel

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

If a brother is offended he should do everything possible to be reconciled with his brother on the way, before death takes one and no reconciliation is possible in this age.

Actually... If a born again believer in Christ Jesus has fallen into holding to offended feelings... Then this one needs to... FIRST... Turn to the Lord by turning to their regenerated spirit... Then... Abiding in the Lord by abiding in their regenerated spirit... They... Following the Lord... Do what it is the Lord leads.

This is not a matter of "...right or worng..."... But one of living in, and living out the life of Christ. . . . When we as born again believers place our reasoning of what scripture says before the actual leading of the Lord... Then we are simply entering into the way that leads to folly religion.

And I experienced, and spoke against, this very thing at yesterday's morning Lord's Day meeting of the saints in the district I meet in.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

If attempts are made then it is on the one who rejects ... then the offended brother can leave it in the Lords righteous and capable hand.

And right there in your above speaking we can see the folly of religious thinking being exposed... My brother, Drake... Nothing is every out of "...the Lords righteous and capable hand." . . . Believers in Him simply need to be those that express this reality... Meaning... Express that nothing is every out of "...the Lords righteous and capable hand."

And we can only express this reality when we believe this reality... And any believer in Christ who thinks to themselves that "... then the offended brother can leave it in the Lords righteous and capable hand..." is exposing that they are not holding to this reality... Exposing that they do not hold to the reality that there is nothing that is not already in "...the Lords righteous and capable hand...".

And this is why believers in Christ continue on in their offended feelings/offences... They simply are not holding to Christ.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Expressing discontent against another brother day in and day out on a forum like this is not leaving it in the Lords righteous and capable hands.

Absolutely... As can be any type of speaking that comes out of our old fallen natural man... And to do so day in day out is just a normal expression of those abiding in and expressing their fallen natural man.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

The other brother may be wrong but now you are too.

Drake

And what are you... Right?

Romans 14:1... "Now him who is weak in faith receive, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his considerations."

02-19-2018 08:58 AM

Drake

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

No, I must have missed that.

You have critiqued John Ingalls for not calling the authorities, but not Witness Lee who had promised to "take care of things."

And you like to play word games with words like "crime."

The reason we are discussing the matter here is that all other avenues of reporting have been removed in the LC, and the victims are just left with their guilt and shame.

If you missed it it is because you are acting reflexively.. knee jerk reaction. “It’s coming from Drake.. Attack! Attack!”

The one avenue for criminal activity is to call the cops. The law is for the lawless. By your calling everything immoral a crime then you befuddle any actual crime. If you or anyone accuse someone or a group of continued criminal activity then you need to take action.... this forum is not the place to resolve criminal activity.

However, I think a rational person knows that engaging authorities for merely something immoral and not criminal is a fools errand. That is why, I suspect, no one here will do it in this case. Rather, it is convenient to slander a group of christians whom you dislike with a broad brush of ongoing criminal activity. It is serious enough that incidents of immorality have taken place but it is also immoral to make false accusations and there is a point that it becomes criminal too. You should understand that I am trying to help here by moderating this discussion.

Drake

02-19-2018 08:51 AM

Unregistered

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

If a brother is offended he should do everything possible to be reconciled with his brother on the way, before death takes one and no reconciliation is possible in this age.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

If attempts are made then it is on the one who rejects ... then the offended brother can leave it in the Lords righteous and capable hand.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Expressing discontent against another brother day in and day out on a forum like this is not leaving it in the Lords righteous and capable hands.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

The other brother may be wrong but now you are too.

Drake

And what are you... Right?

Romans 14:1... "Now him who is weak in faith receive, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his considerations."

02-19-2018 08:44 AM

Nell

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

02-19-2018 08:34 AM

Ohio

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

I’m not defending any crime that may have been committed. Am I not the one who is advocating calling the proper authorities?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

This forum is not the place to report criminal activity IF your objective is to help victims.

The reason we are discussing the matter here is that all other avenues of reporting have been removed in the LC, and the victims are just left with their guilt and shame.

Why is it that the LSM/LC's have become like the RCC's. Do you think the strong authoritative structure might be the answer, since both adhere to the "deputy authority" heresies?

02-19-2018 07:43 AM

Drake

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Drake, what are your qualifications as an expert in this field? Are you SHRM certified?

i have not seen attempts by you to find common ground on this thread. Rather you constantly defend your favorite ministry, and denigrate those who have been victimized by it, while playing your beloved word games with all the posters here.

In a ministry such as Living Stream, do you really see much difference between sexual abuse by management and criminal behavior? Do you really feel that sexual activities at the workplace between managers and female volunteers are merely immoral and consensual, without criminality. If so, your standards for LSM don't even rise to the level of Hollywood sleaze.

No, I am not certified and I dont claim to be. How about you? Nell? Ever actually advised a victim or a perpetrator in determining legal or workplace action? Didn’t think so.

I’m not defending any crime that may have been committed. Am I not the one who is advocating calling the proper authorities? Or do you think you are the proper authority? If so, what makes you, Nell, or anyone else in this forum a proper authority to deal with this matter? You can report to the proper authorities if you think a crime has been committed. I say do it if you want to help victims.

Yes, there is a difference between adultery, fornication, and something forced in the workplace, at home, or anywhere. They are all immoral, but they are not all crimes. You do understand the difference don’t you? This forum is not the place to report criminal activity IF your objective is to help victims. If you really want to help victims then take some action with authorities who can actually do something about it. Otherwise, it is just tabloid type sleaze, since you brought up sleaze.

Drake

02-19-2018 06:17 AM

Ohio

Re: Whistleblower

02-19-2018 05:59 AM

Drake

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

Who told you that? How can you possibly know what help this discussion has been to victims? Are you in contact with them? Have you talked with them and they told you this topic doesn't help them? The decision on what to do next is theirs and theirs alone. Not yours. Your opinion on what they should do is irrelevant. I think they should do whatever they feel is the right thing for them. I would never violate their will again by doing something apart from them. Additionally, I cannot reasonably report a crime I did not witness. In fact, I'm reporting a crime to those who will one day rule in the next age in righteousness.

It is the abused women who have the option to report any crimes against them should they choose to do so. I cannot even imagine the horror they went through, and the consequences they live with possibly to this day.

You apparently you think this is about YOU and your opinion about what should be done. Your opinion seems to be more for sake of your argument rather than concern for these abused women, those who abuse women, the church, Body of Christ, and our God who is Holy and Righteous.

Nell

Nell,

Victims of sexual abuse do not often have the wherewithal, courage, or they have been made to feel shameful to report it for themselves. So if you know of a crime happening you should facilitate its reporting through the proper channels on their behalf else it just continues. You do not have to witness a crime to report it.

The problem I have with your accusation is that it is communicated through the wrong channel to have any effect and you broad brush everyone in the group. That will not help the victims of crime and it is slanderous and libelous to the vast majority believers in the Lords Recovery who pursue the Lord in a holy and upright manner of living. Your attempts to cast the Lords Recovery as practicing rampant sexual abuse is a gross mischaracterizing to serve the interests of people in this forum, not actual victims.

Nell, I’ve made several attempts to find common ground and assumed you really wanted to help victims of sexual abuse. But your rancorous responses reveal a different agenda else you would have gladly received the support of someone you consider a forum adversary. Or perhaps there really is no crime to report. You are possibly not making a distinction between a crime and immorality and just lumping them into one big “unrighteousness” bucket.

Lastly, you do not have a corner on the market for this topic. You are not an informed expert and your approach indicates a lack of understanding how to handle such situations. I know, because in a workplace setting I have been trained to recognize this and have been involved in steps to resolve a few situations. No, this is not about me, rather it is about taking tangible steps to intervene on behalf of actual victims vs. a kind of tabloid reporting.

Drake

02-19-2018 05:21 AM

ZNPaaneah

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

ZNP,

That is borrowing scripture and flipping it on its head to justify an unrighteous practice.

If you think otherwise, please explain in context how Luke 12 v2-3 is the Lord charging His believers to shout each other’s sins from the rooftops.

I think you know better and I think your spirit knows better.

Drake

I have not said that Luke 12 is a charge to believers to shout from the rooftop. However it is a warning and a promise to believers that if they do sin they had to deal with it properly because everything hidden will be known. There is nothing in Luke 12 that suggests this will only take place at the judgement seat.

Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. 2 But there is nothing covered up, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known. 3 Wherefore whatsoever ye have said in the darkness shall be heard in the light; and what ye have spoken in the ear in the inner chambers shall be proclaimed upon the housetops.

02-19-2018 12:38 AM

Evangelical

Re: Whistleblower

I think Nell has raised some very important points about abuse in a church (any church or denomination). I can certainly agree with the point made about not every brother in the local churches being a brother and not every sister being a sister. We have to be on our guard and if we suspect any wrong doing should do something about it. I have only experienced abuse of men by men and not men to women although I'm sure the same sorts of men are capable of either.

02-18-2018 06:19 PM

Nell

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Nell, Your thread will not help ongoing victims because if a crime is being committed as you allege then cops need to be called in to stop it. Why aren’t you doing that?

02-18-2018 05:59 PM

Drake

Re: Whistleblower

-1

ZNP,

There is no scriptural justification for your using this forum as a platform to work your issues or offenses with other Christians. It’s just not in the Bible so I wouldn’t be so confident about your hope of vindication at the judgement seat of Christ.

Let’s keave it there but If you wish to continue this dialogue let’s take it to the other thread where you discussed that NY meeting before. I would have posted this over there but I don’t know where it’s at .

Thanks
Drake

02-18-2018 04:45 PM

Drake

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

But isn't that what was meant when the Lord said their sins would be shouted from the rooftop?

02-18-2018 04:24 PM

Drake

Re: Whistleblower

-1

Nell,

Your thread will not help ongoing victims because if a crime is being committed as you allege then cops need to be called in to stop it.

Why aren’t you doing that?

Drake

02-18-2018 04:06 PM

Nell

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

ZNP,

The equivalent NT venue would be the public square as was found in most of the cities of that day. The Lords charge to go to your sinning brother and if he does not listen tell it to the church etc. was not to go to a pubic square day after day and berate and slander brothers and sisters.

Drake

So far, Drake, the only one berating brothers and sisters ... is you. You continue to berate we forum members as slanderers, members of the Body of Christ...the universal church...for sounding the alarm.

Regardless, the protection is on the side of the innocents who are or were victims of the predators, both then and now. You seem to have lost sight of that. Paul charged the Corinthians (below) to deliver the sinning brother to the devil for the salvation of his soul. We are charged to treat them as heathen and publican, that is, preach the gospel to them.

As bad as their sin is, the Lord in his Word still makes a way for the vilest offender to have a path back to Him...for the salvation of his soul. These vile offenders are possibly our brothers, too. By covering Philip Lee's sin, his own father abandoned him in his state. That is a horrible tragedy as well to leave these men in their sin. Benson and Ray didn't love BenM enough to try to rescue him. They exiled him and left him in his sinful state...and look what happened. Do you really want to be seen as one who would protect these men rather than the women they abuse?

There is plenty of tragedy in this horrible situation, but my heart remains to blow the whistle and stop the downward spiral of sinning men who prey on women IN THE CHURCH, not cover it up.

Nell

02-18-2018 04:06 PM

ZNPaaneah

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

But isn't that what was meant when the Lord said their sins would be shouted from the rooftop?

02-18-2018 03:44 PM

Drake

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

The church is comprised of Christian believers. All Christian believers. You have an opinion about what you think the church is, the organization of believers, but you are not the ultimate authority on who is and who isn't the church. Attempts to tell the Lord Jesus who his church ISN'T is pretty Leeish. Lee had his own personal opinion which he spun into a ministry. If you want to argue about the church...there are plenty of threads on that topic.

Nell

Well, neither do you. Who appointed you as the ultimate authority on what is the church and what is not? Under your definition Facebook is also the church.

Now what?

Better to base your belief on the biblical definition of a local church or the church universal. A public forum where Christians slander and berate other believers is not a church by biblical arrangement nor in the Spirit of Christ. Christ will present a bride to Himself that spotless and without blemish through His cleansing and washing and anyone with even a little discernment knows that the railing accusations you promote here day after day strongly resemble the tactics of the evil one.

Drake

02-18-2018 03:30 PM

Drake

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

What then is the "biblically approved" way to "tell it to the church"? A telephone? A letter? A newspaper?

If Paul "told it to the church" via published letters that were available for all to read how is that any different from a letter published on a public forum on the internet?

02-18-2018 11:55 AM

TLFisher

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Do you have any idea how many guests have gone to LC meetings and have never returned just because they were put off by the scathing criticisms of other Christians?

It's been my concern too Ohio.
Though it's generally very few who use the prophesying meeting for such speaking, elders feel no need to do anything about it. At least that was the case in my locality.
Someone could say it happens in other Christian assemblies. Various assemblies I've met with or visited, that has not been the case.

02-18-2018 10:36 AM

Nell

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Nell,

This forum is not the universal church. It is not a local church. Nothing about this forum even remotely matches the biblical definition of either. You are using that as an excuse to justify your berating and slander of believers in the Lords Recovery. It is in that way no different than the thousands of secular forums where similar unrestrained dialogue takes place.

Drake

02-18-2018 10:36 AM

ZNPaaneah

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

02-18-2018 10:22 AM

Drake

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

Who told you that? This forum is not "a" church. It is THE church. The universal church.

The word just says "tell it to the church" with no distinction on who it is that represents the church in this matter. In fact, this forum is precisely the members of the Lord's church who need this information. We are witnesses to the whole matter. We care more for those abused than those believers who have no knowledge of Lee and his sordid sinful behavior.

Nell

02-18-2018 10:19 AM

Ohio

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

He might. There is no evidence that this forum has facilitated reconciliation, but neither is that it’s stated purpose.

Drake

I doubt you could recognize "evidence" if it hit you in the head.

02-18-2018 10:13 AM

Nell

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

-2 Nell,>”Not so. In fact, the Lord left it in the hands of THE CHURCH.”

Ok. Do that then. This forum is not a church.

Drake

02-18-2018 09:57 AM

Drake

Re: Whistleblower

-2 Nell,>”Not so. In fact, the Lord left it in the hands of THE CHURCH.”

Ok. Do that then. This forum is not a church.

Drake

02-18-2018 09:55 AM

Drake

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

The Lord may want the brother to continue life long seeking reconciliation.

He might. There is no evidence that this forum has facilitated reconciliation, but neither is that it’s stated purpose.

Drake

02-18-2018 09:53 AM

Nell

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

If a brother is offended he should do everything possible to be reconciled with his brother on the way, before death takes one and no reconciliation is possible in this age. If attempts are made then it is on the one who rejects ... then the offended brother can leave it in the Lords righteous and capable hand. Expressing discontent against another brother day in and day out on a forum like this is not leaving it in the Lords righteous and capable hands.

The other brother may be wrong but now you are too.

Drake

Not so. In fact, the Lord left it in the hands of THE CHURCH. This forum clearly appeals to the church and in fact IS the church.

Matt. 18:15-17
15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Did Lee hear the brothers? Did he hear the church? There is no expiration date to "tell it to the church".

Rather, 1 Timothy 5:19-22
19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.
20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.
21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.
22 Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure.

When a sinning brother refuse to hear the church, your responsibility for reconciliation is over. A heathen or publican needs the gospel. However, the church's responsibility to "hear" did not end. The church should remain in fear of this sinning brother.

Additionally:
1 Corinthians 5:1-5

1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

02-18-2018 09:42 AM

Ohio

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

If a brother is offended he should do everything possible to be reconciled with his brother on the way, before death takes one and no reconciliation is possible in this age. If attempts are made then it is on the one who rejects ... then the offended brother can leave it in the Lords righteous and capable hand. Expressing discontent against another brother day in and day out on a forum like this is not leaving it in the Lords righteous and capable hands.

The other brother may be wrong but now you are too.

Drake

That's your opinion.

The Lord may want the brother to continue life long seeking reconciliation.

One day LSM will have to answer to the Lord for rejecting decades of appeals for repentance and reconciliation.

02-18-2018 08:20 AM

Drake

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

02-17-2018 06:07 PM

ZNPaaneah

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

UntoHim,

No, I am not happy. Three reasons...Lastly, I find unsettling the degree that Christians will slander other believers and accuse them of crimes for what appears to be personal animosity and long standing offenses.Drake

02-17-2018 05:13 PM

Indiana

Re: A couple,S dealing with Philip Lee and LSM

Email from 2006

Steve:

I got saved into the church in Atlanta in February of 1974. I moved to.
Boston area from 1977 thru 1979 with the young people from the southeast
and all over the country. I married a sister from Atlanta who also moved to
Massachusetts from Georgia. We got married in May 1979 and shortly after
moved back to Atlanta to be in the church there.

We moved to Knoxville TN in 1984 as did other saints to start up a church
life there. In early 1985 the gospel team visited Knoxville. While they
were there I got the burden to join them. My wife is a nurse and worked
full time so that I could do it. In February of 1987 my wife and I both
participated in the full time training in Taipei. We left in August of 1987
to help with new ones in Orange County that got saved during the door
knocking training in summer of ‘87. After taking care of personal matters
we came back to Orange County in Early September of 1987. We visited the
new ones at night and took part in the training during the day. The problem
was that it only lasted for a couple of weeks. After that we were doing
full time day labor for Philip and the ministry office during the day and
most of the evenings. Some evenings were open to visit the new ones.

My wife’s and my experience in Taipei was glorious. But our experience in
Orange County was far from that. We got to see Phillip in action and how
people listened to him and followed him around much the same as teeny
boppers followed rock stars. My wife and I would ask each other what and
the heck is this? In November we decided we had to go back to work and not
be full time any more. A couple in Irvine was gracious enough to let us
live at their house while we were searching for work. We wanted to stay in
the area, so that we could still help with the new ones.

We lived in the Southeast when most things happened there, and we lived in
Orange County when things were happening there. It was about the same time
the Jim and Tammy Bakker thing was going down. I remember telling my wife
here we are in the middle of something (working with the full-timers in
Taipei and also with the ones in Orange County) and look how pure it is.
That was in September when we first came to Orange County. Little did we
know we'd soon learn it was just as corrupt if not more corrupt than the
Jim and Tammy scandal. By late October we knew something was "wicked
wrong" as they'd say in the Northeast. The things that bothered us were
many but for time sake I'll mention just the ones that stand out in no
specific order:

1. Philip’s meeting with the fulltimers regarding the upcoming Thanksgiving
conference planned by the elders from the various churches.

2. Titus Chu's repentance to the fulltimers to show his support for the
office and Philip just before Witness Lee came back from Taipei.

3. Benson Phillips meeting with the fulltimers for the purpose of open
fellowship.

4. Remodeling a large room of the LSM to do the translation work for the
recovery version of the New Testament.

5. Seeing Philip in action.

6. Witness Lee's inaction when it came to addressing the problems.

7. Vindication with a capital "V".

8. The tearing down of the character of brothers publically that had true
concerns similar to yours.

9. The analyzation of every item said or written by ones with concerns,
problems or genuinely different opinions.

10. The we are always right in every case attitude.

There are so many it would take hours or days to list them all. I'll
briefly cover these ten points as succinctly as I can.

1. We, the fulltimers, were doing manual labor for Philip for at least 30
days. During this time some of us had minimal time if any to spend with the
new believers. Yet Philip ranted and raved in the meeting that the new
ones would die if we didn't spend that weekend with them [and not attend the conference__ED] They're not going to die while we're doing his labor, yet they will die if we invite them to a conference with lots of other believers and new ones. Give me a break. You don't have to get rid of all common sense to be one with the ministry or
ministry office. That's absurd to think you have to do that. For some
reason Philip didn't want the conference to happen.

{Insertion} John Ingalls: The Thanksgiving weekend was coming up, and there was to be a young people’s conference in the mountains. This was brought up for fellowship, and the question arose concerning who should go to lead the young people.

We learned then that one of the trainers from Taiwan had already been encouraged through those serving in the LSM office to come, and in fact he was preparing to come. Most all of the brothers felt strongly and expressed clearly their disagreement with that arrangement, based upon the damage wrought by the high school training in Irving, Texas, in which this particular trainer had a prominent role. The elders asked two brothers among them to telephone this trainer in Taiwan to inform him of the brothers’ feeling that someone else should lead the young people in the coming conference. They did so immediately. It was indeed a shock to the brother in Taiwan. It also was a blow to Philip Lee, who presumed to be directing these affairs. (Speaking the Truth in Love, J.I.)

2. I saw Titus Chu in Taipei walking down the street. When I first saw him
I did a double take because I couldn't remember who he was. I knew he was.
He also did a double take acting like a kid with his hand caught in the
cookie jar. When I did remember that it was Titus I took a mental note of
his reaction because I thought that it was peculiar. Later I found out that
he was conducting some kind of training for young ones in the church in
Taipei without Philip's or Witness Lee's knowledge. He was a brother who
would play both ends against the middle. He would tell John Ingalls he
stands with him and tell Witness Lee that he stands with him. He once told
some of his fulltimers that he sends ones to the training in Anaheim as a
token to show his support for Witness Lee. He would say that WL is getting
old and there's no need to give him extra worries. Titus knows exactly what
Philip's like and would no more follow him than the man in the moon.
Notice that they (churches under Titus's leadership) don't and won't
support the latest law suit.

3. Coming back to the Philip's meeting with the fulltimers, Benson was
sitting right next to Philip while he was basically going ballistic. He
did nothing to stop him and not only so, he supported him. I have no more
respect for this man. He has given up every ounce of integrity that he has
to follow a man…. Back when he met with the couples at a
restaurant on Ball Road nobody brought up this meeting or what went on with
Philip. While walking back to the meeting hall my wife and I made it a
point to confront Benson about this meeting. My wife said to him, "when do you say
enough is enough as far as the oneness goes", in other words how much can
one take and follow blindly before common sense takes over? He couldn't
come up with an answer. I said "let me get this right. When it comes to the
ministry the spiritual side, that's Witness Lee. When it comes to the
practical side, the business side of it that's Philip Lee. Am I being too
narrow to say that Philip had no business sharing anything let alone what
he shared and the manner in which he did it?" Benson's response was a
question. Did you get any life or light in anything that he shared? He
couldn't give my wife or me an answer when it was going on yet he had all
of the answers by the time of “The Fermentation of The Present
Rebellion” book. To me this is terrible. Today I would ask him to his face
how he could say things about John and his motives and not look at himself.
He knew and still knows what type of person Philip was and still is. What
it boils down to is Benson thinks it's more important to follow a man than
it is to follow God.

4. Brothers from the Bay area came down on several weekends to remodel a
portion of the LSM for the translation work. Some fulltimers including me
also helped. I laid the carpet for the room. When it was barely finished
Philip told his dad some lies about John Ingalls and the work was moved to Irving, Texas. All of the work for naught. The room was given to Dan Towle for the fulltimers.

5. Seeing Philip in action. From my few encounters with the man I can
tell he doesn't have a spiritual bone in his body. If he was a manager of
any real company he would have been sued for harassment and/embezzling and
would probably be doing some hard time in jail. And to think his holy dad
cared more about this son than he did for the church.

6., 7. and 8. I called Witness Lee brother V for vindication. I called
Philip brother F. Anyone who has a contrary opinion to his is the devil
and Lee would cut him down and tell lies about their very character. What about
him? How could he let his sons do so many terrible things to the churches
and the work for decades. How could he tear down honest sincere people like
John Ingalls and say or do nothing about Philip. If he lived his man becoming God
teaching, why is God condoning evil acts and people and being slanderous towards genuine Christian brothers and sisters? Jesus never vindicated himself while he was on the earth. Rather, He died on the cross.

Lee says he was continuing in the steps of Watchman Nee and that he was so
one with this brother. Yet Watchman being accused of living with a woman
out of wedlock let the brothers excommunicate him from the church without
trying to vindicate himself. The woman turned out to be his mother. Lee on
the other hand vindicated himself by tearing down the brothers that had
true genuine concerns by saying half truths, exaggerations and outright
lies about brothers in public. Not only that he held elders meetings where
ones would stand up publicly and tell gross lies about brothers like Bill
Mallon, John So, Joseph Fung and John Ingalls. Whosoever could tell the
tallest tale would have his ear. The elders in Anaheim through much
prayer, much waiting and much discernment excommunicated Philip. To say
it wasn't done hastily is a gross understatement. A brother was so mad at
Philip for what he did to his wife that he got a gun and was making plans
to kill Philip. It went to that extreme before something was done. Then
several years after the elders resigned, Lee strong-arms the new elders from the
church in Anaheim and tells them to write a letter to Philip, and they did write
a letter, welcoming him back. More than a year later Philip complained that the letter wasn't signed so all of the brothers signed a copy of the letter and sent it to Philip, apologizing to him for nor signing it. This is God's will? This is a man that is 99% transformed? (WL) This is disgusting is what it is.

9. In the Fermentation book, the writers went through John's 16 Points
analyzing point by point John's motives as well as every word to find fault
or error. If they took a look in the mirror and did the same to themselves
they wouldn't be able to write anything if they had a conscience.

10. You are not going to get an honest answer from people like this. Why do
you even bother? Do you really think they care? If they did care or do care
now why haven't they apologized long ago? They can't and don't because they
are always right. They believe if WL said it that's as good as God saying
it. They are infallible like the Pope when it comes to matters such as
these....

02-17-2018 03:41 PM

Ohio

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Lastly, I find unsettling the degree that Christians will slander other believers and accuse them of crimes for what appears to be personal animosity and long standing offenses.

Drake,

I find these kinds of sayings by LSMers just incredulous considering how badly they have spoken about other Christians for decades. LSMers are equal opportunity condemners -- they go after both insiders and outsiders alike.

Do you have any idea how many guests have gone to LC meetings and have never returned just because they were put off by the scathing criticisms of other Christians?

02-17-2018 12:19 PM

UntoHim

Re: Whistleblower

Drake,
Actually I was just joshin you about making you happy my man. You wouldn't be happy until any and all critics, former members and wistleblowers were silenced, and the Local Church could go back to those wonderful days of that glorious church life of the 60s & 70s. You know...where everyone was a "Witness Lee tape recorder", pumped their fists, shouted Amen! Marched on Moody Church with "down with Christianity!" placards....all the while sweeping the abuse of girls/women/sisters under that vast Local Church rug.

Calling the cops you say? Who would dare call the cops when just asking Witness Lee to contain his sexual predator son got you "quarantined", and your children called "of the devil" by Local Church kids who used to be their friends? How is anyone supposed to exercise any kind of moral or biblical discipline when Witness Lee tells Local Church elders to sweep gross sexual sin by another elder under the rug, and tell them to lie about it?

Again, you are straining the gnat of secular legal definitions and expecting us to swallow the big, fat camel of sexual abuse against innocent girls and women.

All this being said....I'll stand down too.
-

02-17-2018 10:50 AM

Drake

Re: Whistleblower

UntoHim,

No, I am not happy. Three reasons.

1) if a crime is being committed and no one is calling the cops, then rather than do the right thing the crime is simply serving as a platform to advance some personal or social agenda. Victims are getting no help so it is just pretense that a thread like this is for the sake of victims.

2) There is no magic wand to make anything just go away... that is a drawback in a court of public opinion. Accusations, whether true or false, do their damage regardless. That is why there are laws against slander and libel. In my opinion, you cannot wholesale accuse a person or a group of criminal activity even anon in a public forum. You can get away with a lot in a public forum but there are limits.

Lastly, I find unsettling the degree that Christians will slander other believers and accuse them of crimes for what appears to be personal animosity and long standing offenses.

But, let’s accept your magic. I’ll stand down... unless others bring it back up.

Drake

02-17-2018 10:11 AM

UntoHim

Re: Whistleblower

Drake,

You're the one who keeps bringing up rape. I suspect that you have used the word twice as much as anyone else. Yet you have nothing to say about the many cases of sexual abuse being committed. Methinks you may want to pull that phone pole out of your own eye before worrying so much about the toothpick in someone else's.

The crux of the issue, as it is with most issues within the Local Church of Witness Lee, is Witness Lee himself. He was decidedly hardened to the concerns and needs of women/sisters. While he did have the legitimate built in excuse of being a product of ancient Chinese/Asian culture, where women were treated as less than second class citizens, he brought this misogynistic dynamic to whole new heights (or lows as it were) in the LC movement. While wistleblowing in general was highly discouraged, it was/is especially taboo for girls and women to report abuse perpetrated upon them. This became all the more of an extreme dilemma when it was a person of trust.

Ok, let's all wave our magic wands and POOF - the term rape was never brought up - THERE! Happy now? Now let's get real about the abuses that have been perpetrated against girls/women/sisters in the Local Church - Past, present and the abject danger of it happening in the future. Even modern secular society is taking action in the protecting of girls and women (finally), how much more of a responsibility for those who would consider themselves the household of God?
-

02-16-2018 02:35 PM

Drake

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Drake, don't be so lawsuit "trigger-happy." Perhaps it's time for you to stand down and reconsider your history.
The documented evidence of credible eye witnesses supports Nell's comments here.

Ohio,

Nell's accusations of systemic sexual abuse crimes, including rape, has not been substantiated by Nell's so-called "evidence".

That is also a crime..... even on the internet.

Drake

02-16-2018 11:29 AM

Steel

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Steel, are you serious? You are on a Local Church Discussions forum defending LSM and its teachings, and then you say it is slander for me to ask if you have worked for them?

But I'm not doing what you have accused me of... It's pretty simple.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Steel, try to read more carefully.

Oh, I do... And do so as best I can in the Lord.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

I asked Drake that same question on another thread.

That's Drake... I'm not Drake.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Perhaps you are so upset, you are not seeing straight.

Or... Perhaps I'm seeing very straight... And speaking accordingly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

"Let the peace of Christ rule in your heart."

It does, Ohio... And because it does I am trying to exhort you to experience the same... And prove this ruling of Christ in your heart through actually expressing it in your speaking.

Which is something that should be absolutely a part of any consideration of whistleblowing... Meaning... Doing so according to the ruling of Christ in our heart.

02-16-2018 11:23 AM

Steel

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terry

...Loved ones I know. Parents, family friends etc who have been in the fellowship of local churches for 40-50 years. That's where the bulk of their Christian experience lies.

That's behind them... The Lord is in front of them... What is there about Philippians 3:13... "...Forgetting the things which are abehind and stretching forward to the things which are before,... pursue toward the goal for the prize to which God in Christ Jesus has called..." that isn't clear... Or should be ignored?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terry

...Realize or not, the ground of locality teaching does have it's hold.

Because people allow themselves to be imprisoned by their own preferences towards things... "...teaching..." has no way to "...hold..." anyone... Unfortunately... When we stop holding to Christ we become confused about this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terry

...The question would be asked, "where would I go?".
Yes, I'm aware of the "familiar, comfortable, preferred environments." That's one of the traits I seem to notice about denominations. Whether one is raised as a Lutheran, a Baptist, or in the Local Churches, there is willingness to meet apart from those places of fellowship.

On the road I presently live on, and have lived on for a few years, there are three meeting halls related to three different non-denomination denominations (who knows what to call this organizations these days)... And to my knowledge there is no fellowship between any of them... And the same goes for yet another group just half a mile away on another road... A group that has no problem breaking the law by placing folded plastic signs out on the highway that we're close to (not sure what that says about what they teach regarding the things of God).

Terry... I've personally witnessed/experienced the divisiveness that goes on in Christianity... And know that, although oftened denied, it is completely acceptable to have a disposition of divisiveness within Christianity.

02-16-2018 11:23 AM

Ohio

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Post #232 from Nell: "As much as you may not want to hear it, sexual violence is rampant in society today. Nee and Lee both laid the groundwork in the Local Churches by their failures to to deal with this terrible sin in the Local Churches. According to testimonies, it continues today because no one stands up and speaks"

Nell,

This is a slanderous, and some may consider it libelous, statement. You are accusing the Lord's Recovery of sexual violence, including rape. The so-called evidence you have presented thus far does not meet even the basic requirement in a court of law.

Though I have said several times that I support your call to action to report crimes when they are committed, I do not support your continued slanderous unproven innuendo of sexual crimes being committed in the Lord's Recovery. That is way over the line, Nell. Several lines actually both christian and civil.

Drake

Drake, don't be so lawsuit "trigger-happy." Perhaps it's time for you to stand down and reconsider your history.

The documented evidence of credible eye witnesses supports Nell's comments here.

02-16-2018 11:11 AM

Ohio

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steel

On various threads Ohio has either said or tried to suggest that I in some way work for, or should work for, or associated with LSM... Which I said very early on that I wasn't working for LSM, and had no desire to work with LSM.

Therefore... To continually say or suggest this amounts to slander of my person as it suggests that what I have said is not true... And by "...slander..." I mean making false and damaging statements about my person.

Steel, are you serious?

You are on a Local Church Discussions forum defending LSM and its teachings, and then you say it is slander for me to ask if you have worked for them?

Steel, try to read more carefully. I asked Drake that same question on another thread. Perhaps you are so upset, you are not seeing straight.

"Let the peace of Christ rule in your heart."

02-16-2018 11:04 AM

Steel

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

I do understand that you Local Churchers are more comfortable in a courtroom, a venue where you guys can hide behind your expensive lawyers, and where what is really happening in the Local Church of Witness Lee doesn't come to light.

And there it is.

So, Unto him, being someone who met with teh Local Church... You were guilty of the past "...sexual immorality..." that was in the Local Church and "...has become sin as a way of life and perhaps is the "best kept secret."..." in the Local Church... As Nell says?

According to Nells brush... Everyone associated with the Local Church (which includes Nell)... Past and present... Is guilty of "...sexual immorality..." . . . So are you agreeing with her?

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

There are a number of forum members who are aware of a young sister who was raped by the son of a LC leader. Of course it was swept under the rug and the perpetrator was not brought to justice. Perhaps Nell is aware of this situation and just doesn't want to discuss it on the open forum....again, this would be for the consideration and respect of the victim.

I find it very strange that this has been spoken about on public forums and that the police have not become involved. Why haven't any of those who know about this firsthand reported it? . . . Isn't doing this exactly what "...whistleblowing..." is all about.

02-16-2018 10:49 AM

Steel

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Nobody is slandering anybody on this forum. If I see it, it gets deleted immediately, and the poster reprimanded.
Please point out the post in which you were slandered.
-

On various threads Ohio has either said or tried to suggest that I in some way work for, or should work for, or associated with LSM... Which I said very early on that I wasn't working for LSM, and had no desire to work with LSM.

Therefore... To continually say or suggest this amonts to slander of my person as it suggests that what I have said is not true... And by "...slander..." I mean making false and damaging statements about my person.

My reason for asking Ohio the question I did was to try and find out why he was continuing to speak in this way about me... Fellowship is only possible when we are standing on the same ground with a desire to move forward together... Which is what I'm after with all here.

And please, all, don't get all twisted in trying to say that I'm taking the way of thinking law suit foolishness... My speaking was simply to try and point out that Ohio's speaking to me is not in line with the proper fellowship that scripture tells us should take place between members of the Lord's one body.

The above made clear... Perhaps the word "...slander...", given past history related to the matters being discussed on these threads, was not the most appropriate to use... But in the other online forums I participate in (none being local church, LSM, Witness Lee related... Just many that have an abundance of atheists involved) it is sometimes necessary to use strong words to get points across.

Now, that made clear... I do think Nell's speaking that I have already referred to in another comment was way out of line.

02-16-2018 09:36 AM

Drake

Re: Whistleblower

02-16-2018 09:26 AM

Drake

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Drake, this is not a court of law. I do understand that you Local Churchers are more comfortable in a courtroom, a venue where you guys can hide behind your expensive lawyers, and where what is really happening in the Local Church of Witness Lee doesn't come to light.

Even if somebody had some sort of evidence of rape, I would not allow it to be posted here on the open forum. Same goes for any kind of sexual assault or sexually deviant behavior. In many of these cases, the devil is literally in the details, and why should we give him place to do more harm to the victims than has already been perpetrated upon them?

There are a number of forum members who are aware of a young sister who was raped by the son of a LC leader. Of course it was swept under the rug and the perpetrator was not brought to justice. Perhaps Nell is aware of this situation and just doesn't want to discuss it on the open forum....again, this would be for the consideration and respect of the victim.
-

UntoHim,

This is not a court of law, but it is the court of public opinion. The standard is lower here, so people make accusations of crimes committed, in this case rape, without accountability and without evidence. However, we are a christian forum. So the standard should be higher than a civil court. Yet, it is not.

When a crime is committed (sadly when a christian cannot follow the Spirit's leading and casts off all basic christian restraint) then the civil authorities need to be brought in.

Forum members are taking the liberties of making unproven accusations and slandering with a broad brush the Lord's Recovery. That is irresponsible at best. If a crime was committed then someone should call the cops instead of the pathetic slandering going in here. Don't try to convince us this venue is to bring to light what's really going on.... rather, it obfuscates what is really going on with innuendo and subterfuge. Sorry UntoHim, this venue is not a high road.

Therefore, Nell's accusations of rape, a clear crime, being practiced throughout the Lord's Recovery are without proof or substantiation and, in my opinion, are slanderous, a different kind of crime but a crime nonetheless.

Drake

02-16-2018 08:51 AM

Nell

Re: Whistleblower

CONSIDERING HOW TO BRING THE PROBLEMS
BEFORE BROTHER LEE
October – November 1987
...
Godfred, Dan, and I came together a few times, joined also by Ken Unger on a couple of occasions to fellowship about the situation and what should be done. Ken Unger, who was an elder in Huntington Beach, had himself also become very concerned. We conferred about our burden to speak with Brother Lee, mentioning a number of our concerns that involved aberrations of truth and practice. When we touched the matter of the full-time training in Taipei, Dan responded by saying that if you touch the FTTT, you touch Brother Lee himself, and according to his observation of Brother Lee’s practice, Brother Lee will consider you if you become in his eyes a problem, and then he will proceed to carry out his burden without you. Godfred confirmed this by saying that he had the same realization, that Brother Lee considers anyone who criticizes him a troublemaker and will consider whether or not that one is expendable. This was indeed a most serious consideration concerning Brother Lee. But we did not care to maintain any position or standing for ourselves. We felt that for the Lord’s sake and for the sake of all the brothers and sisters, we must open our hearts to Brother Lee, no matter what it cost us.

This has always been a question for me, too. How do you approach the Local Church Leadership with a legitimate problem in the Local Churches without being perceived as a troublemaker, becoming expendable, quarantined, shunned or otherwise ostracized?

As much as you may not want to hear it, sexual violence is rampant in society today. Nee and Lee both laid the groundwork in the Local Churches by their failures to to deal with this terrible sin in the Local Churches. According to testimonies, it continues today because no one stands up and speaks. Whatever words you want to use, these terms are widely used interchangeably to describe unwanted sexual contact. This is the case generally because State Laws, coast to coast, have different definitions for sexual violence. From RAINNS.ORG:

Types of Sexual Violence
The term "sexual violence" is an all-encompassing, non-legal term that refers to crimes like sexual assault, rape, and sexual abuse. Many of these crimes are described below. Please note that the legal definition of crimes vary from state to state. There are often other crimes and forms of violence that arise jointly with crimes like sexual assault, and these are described as well.

https://www.rainn.org/types-sexual-violence

Who is rainn.org?

RAINN'S MISSION
RAINN (Rape, Abuse & Incest National Network) is the nation's largest anti-sexual violence organization. RAINN created and operates the National Sexual Assault Hotline (800.656.HOPE, online.rainn.org y rainn.org/es) in partnership with more than 1,000 local sexual assault service providers across the country and operates the DoD Safe Helpline for the Department of Defense. RAINN also carries out programs to prevent sexual violence, help survivors, and ensure that perpetrators are brought to justice.

The question remains: How do you expose a problem, any problem, in the Local Church to the Local Church and/or Living Stream Ministry leadership without yourself becoming "the problem?" i.e. If you see a problem, you ARE the problem. This is the antithesis of "If you see something, say something."

How do you blow the whistle on ANYTHING in the Local Church/Living Stream Ministry?

Nell

02-16-2018 08:44 AM

UntoHim

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Post the evidence of the rape you allege. Specifically. I do NOT know it’s happening.

02-16-2018 05:56 AM

Drake

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

And a fine example he sets. You would be wise to learn from him.

That is why I followed his lead.

02-16-2018 05:29 AM

Ohio

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Sorry Nell. Moderators do not get a pass from the rules, rather, they set the example.

There it is.

And a fine example he sets. You would be wise to learn from him.

02-16-2018 05:22 AM

Drake

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

He’s the moderator. He owns the forum. He puts up with all the garbage thrown his way. He is worn out by all the nonsense lately. So there you have it.

Nell

Sorry Nell. Moderators do not get a pass from the rules, rather, they set the example.

There it is.

Now, please address the ON TOPIC post #167.

Thanks
Drake

02-15-2018 09:38 PM

Nell

Re: Whistleblower

Before this thread goes further off the rails, let me clearly state that the purpose is to blow the whistle on sexual immorality in the Local Churches, as testified to by women who were exposed to this abuse. The result in their lives has left them, in some cases, shipwrecked in their faith. If you have no meaningful contribution to this topic, please post on another thread.

Watchman Nee laid the foundation for sexual immorality in the church as Dr. Lily Hsu described in her book My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr. Hsu
http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...74&postcount=1

On this foundation, Witness Lee continued supporting the immorality of his son, Philip as told by John Ingalls in his book Speaking the Truth in Love http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...Truth in Love.

We haven't discussed Lee's son Timothy. From what I've read, in some ways, Timothy was worse than Philip. That could be because I read a few more details from Timothy's depravity but I had to stop.

There are testimonies on this forum which brave women have shared regarding their experiences of abuse in the Local Churches. A few posters would seem to want to change the subject and detract from the topic. In that case, please start your own thread. Otherwise, this is an important topic and deserves to be addressed. The devil would like to kill, steal and destroy the lives of women who trusted that the Local Church was a safe place for them to grow as Christian women. For some, that is not the case. There may be others monitoring this topic and looking for a safe place to share their experiences. Hopefully we can continue to keep this topic from being destroyed.

Nell

02-15-2018 07:25 PM

Nell

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Nobody is slandering anybody on this forum. If I see it, it gets deleted immediately, and the poster reprimanded.
Please point out the post in which you were slandered.
-

It’s not “slander” if it’s true.

Nell

02-15-2018 05:10 PM

Evangelical

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Nobody is slandering anybody on this forum. If I see it, it gets deleted immediately, and the poster reprimanded.
Please point out the post in which you were slandered.
-

Post #40 please. But only the last paragraph. But I'm not too worried about it. Every Christian is a miniature garden of Eden.

02-15-2018 04:55 PM

Nell

Re: Whistleblower

He’s the moderator. He owns the forum. He puts up with all the garbage thrown his way. He is worn out by all the nonsense lately. So there you have it.

Nell

02-15-2018 04:43 PM

Drake

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

Please take this somewhere else...anywhere...not here.

Sorry Nell.

I need to get this straight.

UntoHim was off topic but you did not flag his post. I merely responded to UntoHim and you flagged my post.

So, should I have started a new topic in responding to UntoHim? And why didn't you flag Untohim's post..... that would have been at least consistent.

Drake

02-15-2018 04:14 PM

Nell

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

UntoHim,

The place you meet is managed by sinless, flawless, and error free leaders? Must be some kind of place!

Yet, the truth is, that is a characteristic of many who are regular posters in this forum. They have a very high standard, measure others according to that standard, and have no problem criticizing and condemning others who don't meet it. And, in some cases, have allowed their unbridled indignation lead them to slander, mocking, and derision of brothers and sisters.

There are no perfect men in this world and yet God still chooses to work through men no matter how imperfect they are. His anointing will reside where He places it for however long He chooses. The failures of servants of the Lord are a test to the revelation He has shown us. If we follow men we are headed for great disappointment. Many here followed a man at some point in their life and they never recovered from the inevitable disappointment.

Drake

Please take this somewhere else...anywhere...not here.

02-15-2018 04:07 PM

Drake

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Man oh man, Mr. Steel, for a place that considers itself as THE Lord's Recovery, God's move on earth, and it's unquestioned leader as THE One Minister with the One Ministry for the Age....there sure seems to be a lot of error! Maybe you should consider finding another Christian group/ministry that doesn't have so much error. Just sayin.....
-

02-15-2018 02:04 PM

UntoHim

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steel

Human error maybe... Are you not, as I and every other person, personally acquainted with it... Human error that is.
Again... Human error maybe... Are you not, as I and every other person, personally acquainted with it... Human error that is.
Again... Human error maybe... Are you not, as I and every other person, personally acquainted with it... Human error that is.

02-15-2018 01:58 PM

UntoHim

Re: Whistleblower

Nobody is slandering anybody on this forum. If I see it, it gets deleted immediately, and the poster reprimanded.
Please point out the post in which you were slandered.
-

02-15-2018 11:28 AM

Steel

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

No, not at all, I love you as a brother in Christ.

Even if you were my "enemy" I would still love you.

Then why do you seek to slander me?

02-15-2018 07:49 AM

Ohio

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steel

Ohio... A question... Do you dislike me?

No, not at all, I love you as a brother in Christ.

Even if you were my "enemy" I would still love you.

02-14-2018 02:03 PM

Steel

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Steel, this is the kind of aggressive posting that got your posts moderated.

I'll keep that in mind. I don't see what I said as being aggresive... But again, I'll keep it in mind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Nell is citing other LC leaders who have warned us in the past of rottenness at LSM. Combined with so many other witnesses who have posted on the board, Nell is right to sound the alarm. Better safe than sorry.

If the heart is pure... Sure. But if it isn't, then what is it that scripture says should be our response?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

If all of these brothers have warned us in the past, Nell is right to repeat their warnings. This has nothing to do with "demanding her feelings/ understanding/ knowledge/ opinions to be justified by men?"

Perhaps in your opinion... But after reading and considering what she said, my thinking regarding it differed to yours. Which is why I wrote what I did in my response.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Perhaps you could also learn something from LC leaders about "Keeping all your posts short, quick, living, and to the point!"

I try... And am getting better and better at it each day... Lord willing.

From another comment Ohio made... "I do wish our dear brother Steel would stop posting about things he knows nothing about."

Back at ya.

Ohio... A question... Do you dislike me?

02-14-2018 01:58 PM

Steel

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Right. So why is it a published requirement for LC members to consider Witness Lee, whose been dead for 20+ years, as the One Minister with the One Ministry for the Age?

Human error maybe... Are you not, as I and every other person, personally acquainted with it... Human error that is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Why is it the official, published policy that the only publications allowed in the LC movement are those spoken/written by Witness Lee, whose been dead for 20+ years?

Again... Human error maybe... Are you not, as I and every other person, personally acquainted with it... Human error that is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Right. Dead men have no ministry. So why are all the Local Churches and anyone who wants to participate forced to read and fellowship the ministry of this guy whose been dead for 20+ years?

Again... Human error maybe... Are you not, as I and every other person, personally acquainted with it... Human error that is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Why are people ostracized and quarantined if they even suggest reading and fellowshipping from the ministry of any other man?

That hasn't been my experience. No doubt there is a limitation to doing so... But I've witnessed people speak from other ministry sources in both small group meetings and prophesying meeting... Including LSM doing so itself in some of its published literature.

My doctor, who has stopped meeting with us, did tell me that he did so because a brother whose home he met in always made his speaking from other ministry an issue. Which unfortunately led to this brother (the doctor) pulling out of the meetings and going, of all places, back to meeting with the Roman Catholic folk (it's what he had come out of). Having meet on a few occassions with this doctor/brother at the home meeting he was participating in, I understood the situation. But I don't see it as a problem with the ministry, but rather a deficit of growth in life regarding the broher in whose home the meeting was being held.

Is this doctor/brother better off meeting with the RC folks again? I'll just say that I don't think it's the end of his sufferings — there are other issues that the Lord is dealing with.

But I understand what you are speaking of... The narrowness of the view regarding just using LSM literature to minister from. But the Lord knows of the situation... And many have prayed about the situation... And the Lord allows the situation. So how do we as His servants, respond to what He knows, and allows?

But if I felt a definite lack of growth in life within me in realtion to where I believe the Lord has me meeting, I would certainly take it before the Lord... Because either I got it wrong regarding where I believe the Lord has me meeting... Or I have it wrong regarding what is needed for my growth in life.

And whichever it is... I trust the Lord to correct the situation as I am continually before Him regarding it.

Shoot... He might even have me in that situation just to cause me to learn to be continually before Him. The Lord is very smart/wise that way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

"The practice these people have is their own practice". No sir. Please read the One Publication statement. Nothing, absolutely nothing is to be taught or practiced outside of what was taught and practiced by Witness Lee.

LOL... Then, my brother... They have dismally failed.

Understand this... You can write whatever you want until the cows come home... Getting people to live according to what you write... That's another story.

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Everything else outside of Lee is to be considered "religious" or "worldly".

Obviously not Darby... As he is quoted in the footnotes of the Recovery Versoin bible. Soooo....

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Look at today's quote of the day. "replacing us until all natural distinctions have been removed". To anyone who has been involved with the Local Church for any length of time, it should be painfully obvious what Witness Lee meant by "all natural distinctions". He meant anything different or apart from, or anything beyond what he taught and practiced.

Really... Then I must be living evidence of the dismal failure I referred to a little above. I understood this that is quoted...

"The new man is Christ in all the saints, permeating and replacing us until all natural distinctions have been removed and everyone is constituted of Christ."

To mean exactly what it says... This being that the new man... The one new man... Is simply "...everyone..." (meaning all born again believers) being constituted with Christ... Having all natural (our fallen man nature) distinctions... Being removed through Christ permeating and replacing us.

To me the above quoting speaking of Witness Lee is simply a type of explanation of whay Paul said... Galatians 2:20... "I am crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me."

Honestly, this morning when I saw the quote I said to myself, "Oh, that's nice, there's a positive quote from Witness Lee. And I find it really sad that some would choose to see it as some sort of declaration of only holding to his ministry.

I'm really glad God has supplied me with the grace to not be so narrow in the way I see things.

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

You should try to become clear on this reality.

Oh... I do try... Every day... On this and many others that scripture reveals... And I hope that in what I see as being clear speaking above... You see the result of my effort... And the Lord's grace working/operating in me.

02-14-2018 11:05 AM

aron

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Combined with so many other witnesses who have posted on the board, Nell is right to sound the alarm. Better safe than sorry.

As Jesus taught us, "Tell it to the church!"

02-14-2018 11:03 AM

Ohio

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Right. So why is it a published requirement for LC members to consider Witness Lee, whose been dead for 20+ years, as the One Minister with the One Ministry for the Age? Why is it the official, published policy that the only publications allowed in the LC movement are those spoken/written by Witness Lee, whose been dead for 20+ years?....

Thanks UntoHim.

All of the Midwest LC's were damaged, divided, and many sued in court over this very matter.

I do wish our dear brother Steel would stop posting about things he knows nothing about.

.

02-14-2018 10:58 AM

Ohio

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

When I hear that the Local Church leadership, actually the Living Stream Ministry leadership, stands in the assembly and says "John Ingalls was right to expose the handling of Philip Lee by his father, Witness Lee. Max Rapoport was right...Don Hardy was right...we were wrong to allow ourselves to be pressured by Witness Lee to protect sinning brothers. I'm not holding my breath until that happens, but this is the "way of life" to which I refer. Nell

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steel

So you demand your feelings/understanding/knowledge/opinions be justified by men?

Is that a scriptural way to conduct yourself?

Is this what John Ingalls wants?

Is this what Max Rapoport wants?

Is this what Don Hardy wants?

Would you think to speak for them?

Steel, this is the kind of aggressive posting that got your posts moderated.

Nell is citing other LC leaders who have warned us in the past of rottenness at LSM. Combined with so many other witnesses who have posted on the board, Nell is right to sound the alarm. Better safe than sorry.

If all of these brothers have warned us in the past, Nell is right to repeat their warnings. This has nothing to do with "demanding her feelings/ understanding/ knowledge/ opinions to be justified by men?"

Perhaps you could also learn something from LC leaders about "Keeping all your posts short, quick, living, and to the point!"

02-14-2018 10:53 AM

UntoHim

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steel

And humanly speaking... Witness Lee is dead... And has been dead for 20 years.

Quote:

Again... Witness Lee is dead... Dead men have no ministry... At least... Not in the sense of (context) practices.
Dead men can practice nothing.
Now other people might have a practice related to Witness Lee's spoken/written/past practices ministry... But the practice these people have is their own practice... Not the dead Witness Lee's practice.
You should try to become clear on this reality.

Right. Dead men have no ministry. So why are all the Local Churches and anyone who wants to participate forced to read and fellowship the ministry of this guy whose been dead for 20+ years? Why are people ostracized and quarantined if they even suggest reading and fellowshipping from the ministry of any another man?

"The practice these people have is their own practice". No sir. Please read the One Publication statement. Nothing, absolutely nothing is to be taught or practiced outside of what was taught and practiced by Witness Lee. Everything else outside of Lee is to be considered "religious" or "worldly". Look at today's quote of the day. "replacing us until all natural distinctions have been removed". To anyone who has been involved with the Local Church for any length of time, it should be painfully obvious what Witness Lee meant by "all natural distinctions". He meant anything different or apart from, or anything beyond what he taught and practiced.

You should try to become clear on this reality.
-

02-14-2018 09:37 AM

Steel

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

Perhaps this way of life is more accurately among the leadership and the offenders, but not among the majority of the membership.

Although you are still being somewhat evasive in your use of the word "...Perhaps...", which only slightly changes what you said...

If you truly believe "...but not among the majority of the membership..."...

Then apologize to those of us here who meet with other local church members... As it is the proper thing to do before the Lord your having spoken what you did in your other related comment.

And I say this not for my sake... But for your own sake.

Nell...

Whatever our differences of thought regarding the matter of Witness Lee, the LSM, and the "Local Church"... We are first and foremost believer's in Christ... We belong to Him... And should pursue serving Him... Even on this website.

And one of the ways we do this is in and through proper fellowship... Which is carried out in and through the Lord's love.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

I only know of 2 instances of the elders dealing with sexual immorality, scripturally, both occurring over 40 years ago. One account was written by John Ingalls and the other I was a witness to in Houston in the early 70's. There were approximately 100 others in that meeting as well. We have three instances of Witness Lee's personal intervention to prohibit twice dealing with his son, and once BenM at the time you noted, BenM "disappeared."

Witness Lee was a human, and as scripture tells us — and we can know from our own actions — humans make mistakes.

And humanly speaking... Witness Lee is dead... And has been dead for 20 years.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

Is there no end in sight?

Are we as believers in Christ not called to endure?

And do so in love.

And why?

Because...

1 Corinthians 13:1-13... "If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels but do not have love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal... And if I have the gift of prophecy and know all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing... And if I dole out all my possessions to feed others, and if I deliver up my body that I may boast, but do not have love, I profit nothing... Love suffers long. Love is kind; it is not jealous. Love does not brag and is not puffed up;... It does not behave unbecomingly and does not seek its own things; it is not provoked and does not take account of evil;... It does not rejoice because of unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth;... It covers all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things... Love never falls away. But whether prophecies, they will be rendered useless; or tongues, they will cease; or knowledge, it will be rendered useless... For we aknow in part, and we prophesy in part;... But when that which is complete comes, that which is in part will be rendered useless... When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I thought as a child, I reasoned as a child; since I have become a man, I have done away with childish things... For now we see in a mirror obscurely, but at that time face to face; now I know in part, but at that time I will fully know even as also I was fully known... Now there abide faith, hope, love, these three; and the greatest of these is love."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

It's one thing to have doctrinal disputes with Lee's ministry and teachings. The practices of his ministry is another thing altogether.

Again... Witness Lee is dead... Dead men have no ministry... At least... Not in the sense of (context) practices.

Dead men can practice nothing.

Now other people might have a practice related to Witness Lee's spoken/written/past practices ministry... But the practice these people have is their own practice... Not the dead Witness Lee's practice.

You should try to become clear on this reality.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

The current practice is to turn a blind eye to sins against the Body...which is the temple of the Lord.

Not according to my experience with other, LSM-associated members of the "...temple of the Lord..." whom I meet with presently.

But I certainly can't know what may be hidden... And according to scripture... Shouldn't speak about what I don't actually know.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

So you demand your feelings/understanding/knowledge/opinions be justified by men?

Is that a scriptural way to conduct yourself?

Is this what John Ingalls wants?

Is this what Max Rapoport wants?

Is this what Don Hardy wants?

Would you think to speak for them?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

I'm not holding my breath until that happens, but this is the "way of life" to which I refer.

Nell...

You have the Lord in you...

What more do you need.

I'll end with this...

Romans 8:31... "What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?... Indeed, He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not also with Him freely give us all things?... Who shall bring a charge against God's chosen ones? It is God who justifies.... Who is he who condemns? It is Christ Jesus who died and, rather, who was raised, who is also at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us... Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation or anguish or persecution or famine or nakedness or peril or sword?... As it is written, "For Your sake we are being put to death all day long; we have been accounted as sheep for slaughter.''... But in all these things we more than conquer through Him who loved us... For I am persuaded that neither death nor life nor angels nor principalities nor things present nor things to come nor powers... Nor height nor depth nor any other creature will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

It has been a while since I read the above scripture verses.

I thank the Lord that He used your speaking to cause me to spend time reading the above scripture this morning... As it is absolutely applicable to my participation on this website... And really... All that I encounter each and every day.

I needed to consider it before Him... And the Lord knew this.

As scripture tells us... God can take that which was meant for evil, and bring about good.

Praise You Lord Jesus.

02-14-2018 03:29 AM

aron

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

Why was the USOC rocked by the actions of one doctor? Or Penn State U by what one assistant coach did? Because of the institutionalisation of the sin. The institution fostered a climate in which this could occur. Obviously in any large group sin against one another can occur, and with power disparity (team doctor or coach vv athlete, elder vv church member, or Philip Lee vv office member) abuse like this can happen.

But the institution managers, who derive their power from it, seek to protect it, and thus the sin continues. Appearance takes precedence over reality. This is the institutionalisation of sin, and it affects every member in the organisation.

02-13-2018 06:48 PM

UntoHim

Re: Whistleblower

leastofthese,

I understand your concerns. They are valid and appropriate. Our new friend Steel was making a lot of long posts. I only have so much time and energy to moderate somebody like that. I'm slowly but surely catching up to get his posts on the forum.

Believe it or not, we have a lot of lurkers and passerbyers on the forum. While my main concern and consideration is for our regular members and posters, I do have a measure of concern for all the people stopping by (albeit for a moment) and want to be considerate of their time and patience to sort through the myriad of threads and forum boards we have here on LCD.

Finally, our friend Steel originally presented himself as a relatively moderate and reasonable Local Churcher. Soon after his first postings he went "nuclear" on us. He became very defensive and aggressive towards the other forum members. Drake probably sees this dynamic different...and maybe so do you. In any event, I'm going to try my best to get Mr. Steel back online full time without such heavy moderation. Trust me...it's no bowl of cherries for me to do it this way.
-

02-13-2018 05:37 PM

Ohio

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by leastofthese

UntoHim, I appreciate the time, energy, and money that you put towards this forum. I also understand that with your position comes the ability to act as you see best fit. But if Steel’s comments are true, it does seem reasonable to allow him to post. I think it is healthy for readers to see the words of those still within the walls of the LSM churches... they are their own worst enemies... and actually provide a pretty accurate snapshot into the confusion and character that is born from following Witness Lee and his ministry.

Actually Steele is posting ... but the moderator is making sure he doesn't exceed the speed limit.

02-13-2018 05:12 PM

leastofthese

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steel

Really, UntoHim...

You block me for posting too much and being aggressive... But allow Nell to post this unmitigated lie... Judging all who meet as the Local Chruch as holding to sexual immorality as their way of life.

Have you no sense of basic decency.

UntoHim, I appreciate the time, energy, and money that you put towards this forum. I also understand that with your position comes the ability to act as you see best fit. But if Steel’s comments are true, it does seem reasonable to allow him to post. I think it is healthy for readers to see the words of those still within the walls of the LSM churches... they are their own worst enemies... and actually provide a pretty accurate snapshot into the confusion and character that is born from following Witness Lee and his ministry.

02-13-2018 04:06 PM

Nell

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I knew BenM during this time and then one day he simply disappeared from the church meeting without me hearing a word (I had moved to Odessa).

But I was clueless to his immorality, I was clueless to what was taking place in Anaheim and I would consider it very reasonable if the vast majority of saints at that time were "clueless".

I don't know where you get this idea of sexual immorality becoming a way of life in the Local Church. It certainly was not my experience.

It wasn't my experience either, until I found out what was going on. Perhaps this way of life is more accurately among the leadership and the offenders, but not among the majority of the membership. Witness Lee's ministry was, among other things, a "ministry of secrecy." That is, "cover the brothers", "don't say anything negative," and a climate of "shoot the messenger" as happened to John Ingalls and Max Rapoport. I described it as a way of life. Maybe there is a better term.

I only know of 2 instances of the elders dealing with sexual immorality, scripturally, both occurring over 40 years ago. One account was written by John Ingalls and the other I was a witness to in Houston in the early 70's. There were approximately 100 others in that meeting as well. We have three instances of Witness Lee's personal intervention to prohibit twice dealing with his son, and once BenM at the time you noted, BenM "disappeared."

Is there no end in sight? It's one thing to have doctrinal disputes with Lee's ministry and teachings. The practices of his ministry is another thing altogether. The current practice is to turn a blind eye to sins against the Body...which is the temple of the Lord.

When I hear that the Local Church leadership, actually the Living Stream Ministry leadership, stands in the assembly and says "John Ingalls was right to expose the handling of Philip Lee by his father, Witness Lee. Max Rapoport was right...Don Hardy was right...we were wrong to allow ourselves to be pressured by Witness Lee to protect sinning brothers. I'm not holding my breath until that happens, but this is the "way of life" to which I refer.

Nell

02-13-2018 12:20 PM

ZNPaaneah

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

Now sexual immorality in the Local Church has become sin as a way of life and perhaps is the "best kept secret." What do you think of the "Cover the Brothers" teaching now? We know that Benson and Ray pressured 3 Texas elders to "cover" immorality of BenM. Then, a few years later BenM seduced his brother's wife, divorced his own wife, and married his brother's wife. All under cover of Lee, Benson and Ray.

02-12-2018 01:11 PM

Steel

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

Now sexual immorality in the Local Church has become sin as a way of life and perhaps is the "best kept secret."..." Nell

02-12-2018 12:22 PM

TLFisher

Re: Whistleblower

All indications is wanting it both ways. At least there is no initiative nor desire for righteousness.
Here are some of the phrases I've heard over the years in the local churches regarding immorality:

rumors
I don't want to hear about it
Just go on positively
God sees no iniquity is Israel

Bottom line, "cover the brothers" is just as important as "deputy authority", "the ground of locality", etc in the local churches. Division is produced

02-11-2018 06:59 PM

Nell

Re: Whistleblower

How is it possible, knowing what we know now, that testimony has been made public about Watchman Nee's immorality, that nothing changes? Then in 1978, via Max Rapoport, Philip Lee's immorality was made public, and again in 1987-88 via John Ingalls, Philip Lee's immorality was again brought to public attention. But nothing changes.Today we have first hand accounts posted on this forum by women who were abused by men in the Local Church. How is it possible that the LC rocks on in gross sin, offending the Body of Christ in the worse possible way. How is it possible that such sin continues and nothing changes?

The biggest horror to me is that Witness Lee is STILL idolized, and credited as the "Minister of the Age" and other such nonsense. What hypocrisy! Whatever growth that actually occurs in the Local Churches likely has nothing to do with "the ministry" of Witness Lee, but more to do with God's mercy on his people.

Then we have Lee’s perhaps greatest failure: his sons. He knew his sons were predators. He knew they abused the Lord's children. He knew it, but rather than deal with it, he covered their sin. Then pressured other men in the Local Church to do the same. Some of these men are leaders still in "office" today. They were rewarded with longevity in the LSM "office." How are these men not as repulsed and disgusted as John Ingalls described in, Speaking the Truth in Love? Ray and Benson cited the "ground of locality" teaching as reason not to deal with Philip. What do you think of the "ground of locality" teaching now?

Now sexual immorality in the Local Church has become sin as a way of life and perhaps is the "best kept secret." What do you think of the "Cover the Brothers" teaching now? We know that Benson and Ray pressured 3 Texas elders to "cover" immorality of BenM. Then, a few years later BenM seduced his brother's wife, divorced his own wife, and married his brother's wife. All under cover of Lee, Benson and Ray.

Where is the "Lord's blessing" now? You can't "cover sin" and expect the Lord to bless your meeting together. This immoral behavior is a mockery to the Lord's name, and to the Lord's Body. It's also a mockery of God's holiness, God's righteousness and God's Word.

You can't have it both ways.

Nell

02-11-2018 08:47 AM

Ohio

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I would not have agreed. He said he was an apostle and prophet of God. He said he was a servant of God. If he had told me that this was his ministry, his office and it didn't belong to God I would never have served LSM.

No one would have, because we were all persuaded it was a Levitical Service on the highest plane.

Many were asked, "why waste your time in some remote local church, when you could serve at LSM, building the body and preparing the Bride.

02-11-2018 05:39 AM

ZNPaaneah

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

And brother Lee again emphasized in those meetings—He said, “Should my private cook in my house also be a spiritual person? What if I hire an unbeliever to print books, this is my business office. My printer doesn’t have to be a spiritual person. And I do have the right to hire my son to be manager of my office to take care of this business for me.” I fully agreed. At that time, I really said, “Fair enough, fair enough.”[/COLOR]

My point is that this is still wrong. But nobody could say anything - the culture wouldn't allow it. The mantra was, we are "one", and must be "one" with leadership. This is the problem with the "oneness" church - there's no way to correct any all-too-human faults. And then when it blows up, everyone asks, "Gee, what just happened?"

02-11-2018 01:50 AM

aron

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by kumbaya

For me, if WL had come out and apologized for the whole Daystar thing, took responsibly, and repented- that would be different. My issue with it is more the cover up, the attacks on other brothers, the lack of accountability. His response was that of a guilty person. An innocent person is an open book, ready to prove their innocence. I feel like I can rightly assume that given the decades this scandal has been covered up- if the local church leaders could prove it didn’t happen, they would! Instead, there are RECORDINGS and numerous testimonies. Which, by the way, testimonies are admissible in a court of law- yet members in the LC are told (I believe it’s from the book the “overcomers”) that anyone who says anything “negative” (with no definition on what that even means and no verses justifying this statement), is a “wrong” person. You should stay away from this “wrong” person, or you will be contaminated.

Can you believe the blatant cult mentality there? I’ll have to find the quote- I’m not exaggerating. So, what we have is a system of zero accountability, no clear picture on what it means to be negative or a wrong person- just a picture full of fear....Ultimately, no one wants to be “negative” so to call out bad behavior might make you that, make you a “wrong person,” and make other people stay away from you.

It’s apparently working-most people in my locality have started to distance themselves-even my fam.

Two points:

1. The holding power of the guanxi network is fear: if you break the web of reciprocal obligations you are O.U.T. out. There is no forgiveness, no reconciliation. It's not very Christian but it's very effective!! Who ever crossed LSM leadership and got back into the network? Nobody.

2. Suppose Daystar had been a successful business, and returned a profit to its investors. It still would be wrong, because Lee used the pulpit to dun the flock for $$ for his family business. Suppose Philip had not been caught repeatedly molesting the help (even tho they were adults, because of the power disparity I don't see it as "consensual"). Suppose Philip had just been a rough unspiritual guy who was installed as 'the Office'?

John So, Manila 1990 "At that time my understanding of the office of Witness Lee, the business office of Witness Lee, was exactly what Witness Lee publicly proclaimed it to be. “It is an office to take care of his tapes, to take care of printing books, and to take care of distributing books to serve all the churches.” That was my understanding. That was really my understanding. And for some reason, there was a lot of problem in Anaheim in the home office of the Living Stream in Anaheim. And it was really at that time not so nice. The fellowship there between the churches in Orange County and the office was not very nice, and I happened to be in one of the meetings, that must be in 1982, and Witness Lee was sharing quite strongly to all the serving ones, especially regarding the Chinese work and the serving ones in the LSM office. And obviously there was a conflict between the office, which is brother Lee’s office, which is also brother Lee’s son, and many serving ones there. And brother Lee again emphasized in those meetings—He said, “Should my private cook in my house also be a spiritual person? What if I hire an unbeliever to print books, this is my business office. My printer doesn’t have to be a spiritual person. And I do have the right to hire my son to be manager of my office to take care of this business for me.” I fully agreed. At that time, I really said, “Fair enough, fair enough.”

My point is that this is still wrong. But nobody could say anything - the culture wouldn't allow it. The mantra was, we are "one", and must be "one" with leadership. This is the problem with the "oneness" church - there's no way to correct any all-too-human faults. And then when it blows up, everyone asks, "Gee, what just happened?"

02-11-2018 12:40 AM

OhLordJesus

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by kumbaya

Gotcha, I wasn’t trying to imply your mind or intentions weren’t in the right place. I’m relatively new on here and am coming from a place of seeing both sides, being in the LC most of my life.

I know John Ingalls account was recommended- that’s a good one. Also, if “evidence” is what you’re looking for, I would start with the recording of WL and Sal Benoit (just google those two names and it should come up).

There’s also a diagram of the Daystar “set up” that explains the conversation. Lmk if u can’t find from a google search and I’ll get u the links!

As far as I know, it didn’t get reported to the authorities and everyone involved (including those just following Bro. Lee’s orders) weren’t found out by law enforcement, and luckily for them- the statute of limitations has passed. Of course, that doesn’t mean they weren’t put in a really compromising and unethical position in the first place. The recording between WL and Sal Benoit might be the best thing (at least that I’ve seen) to hear WL admitting to using church funds to “Loan” to his business, which apparently is illegal given it’s a non profit corporation lending money to an overseas unincorporated “for profit” group. Someone else will have to explain the legalities of it but common sense says- don’t use church funds for your personal business, loan or not! Not to mention him asking saints to invest- it’s all there...

As far as the ones here for the local churches, I’ve wondered their motives too. It seems with all the info, the bubble would have burst by now. Everyone is different though and has their own way of dealing with things...

Thanks Kumbaya, I read the Speaking the Truth in Love and I've listened to the recording of WL and Sal. It is quite a serious matter to use the fund in non-profit organization for businesses. It must be reported.

02-10-2018 11:31 PM

kumbaya

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by OhLordJesus

My mind is always very clear since day 1 I attended LC. I remain neutral until I can see official report to the Authority for illegal activities otherwise the cover up stuffs which some of you discussed here could be just a group of responsible ones handled issues incompetently.

I read some of threads and I knew who is for and who is against LC in this forum. The question is those who support LC, what are their motives of staying here?

02-10-2018 07:40 PM

OhLordJesus

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by kumbaya

Just a helpful suggestion, you can go back and see all members comments on this site. I noticed you were asking this to a specific person and I did the same thing when I first got on here! Trying to sort it all out and see who is who is really overwhelming. It's good to have some comradory and trust with certain people but you have to consider the source. Some people on here are intentionally frustrating, avoid answering logical questions, and talk in circles- avoiding the true points of discussion. Of course, it's good to get both sides of the story but I would suggest considering the source and the amount of evidence both sides have to offer.

I'm glad the others recommended "Speaking the Truth in Love," I was going to suggest that. It really helped me. Even then, you'll have to dig a little deeper because John Ingalls refrains from mentioning the specific details of the grave offenses by Philip Lee. He also (and someone please offer an explanation to why if you know!) doesn't mention that the "brother" being excommunicated that the elders were undecided about- was PL.

He mentions the "grave offenses" by PL, but he's very careful not to go into the details. Obviously, we know they were serious in nature due to the fact that excommunication was on the table....

I'm just saying this to encourage you to read ALL the accounts, testimonies, and personal experiences that so many people have to offer before making a judgement. It's been a hard thing for me to do and I'm still coming to terms with the idea that the local church isn't what I thought it was.

Just be careful (and I'm telling myself this too) of who you go to to get the "truth" on here. The truth is somewhere in the middle of these two sides everyone is on, I'm sure. Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the life- that's all we really know.

I think it's really easy to get caught up in all the "bad things" that happened in the church. Obviously, where there's smoke- there is fire. But that was in the past and there's never going to be a clear answer, just speculation....

For me, I had to look at what Christian scholars and psychology recommends in terms of healthy/unhealthy spiritual boundaries, abuse, and best/worst practices in Christian movements. Once I did that- it was very clear. The local church is a breeding ground for spiritual abuse, manipulation, mind control, and exploits genuine believers mentally and financially. I'm not saying that was ever the intention, but sin has turned it into that. The people that are in are involved in cult mindsets/practices that have weaved their way into Christian circles. They associate their experience with the Lord with the local church and can't separate the two, all while under the influence of group think and mind narrowing thought reform techniques.

There's a lot of info about it on here, and elsewhere. Everything good I read on it doesn't even mention the LC, just helps you identify bad practices and abuse. I would definitely recommend looking into that.

Peace and love

02-10-2018 07:32 PM

ZNPaaneah

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by kumbaya

Which, by the way, testimonies are admissible in a court of law- yet members in the LC are told (I believe it’s from the book the “overcomers”) that anyone who says anything “negative” (with no definition on what that even means and no verses justifying this statement), is a “wrong” person. You should stay away from this “wrong” person, or you will be contaminated.

Can you believe the blatant cult mentality there? I’ll have to find the quote- I’m not exaggerating. So, what we have is a system of zero accountability, no clear picture on what it means to be negative or a wrong person- just a picture full of fear....Ultimately, no one wants to be “negative” so to call out bad behavior might make you that, make you a “wrong person,” and make other people stay away from you.

It’s apparently working-most people in my locality have started to distance themselves-even my fam.

This turning away is to exercise to quarantine the divisive, sectarian ones in order to protect the saints from being contaminated. The divisive ones are very contagious. Anyone who contacts them will be "infected." This would not be good for them or for others. (Elders' Training, Book 10: The Eldership and the God-Ordained Way (2), Chapter 5, Section 3)

If we realize that one who is near us is "dying" or is spreading death, we must keep ourselves away. Otherwise, if we remain near such a person, we will be contaminated by the germs of death. (Elders' Training, Book 10: The Eldership and the God-Ordained Way (2), Chapter 6, Section 13)

02-10-2018 06:52 PM

kumbaya

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Kumbaya, few comments here.

This post shows you have studied LC history well.

John Ingalls' account STTIL is absolutely trustworthy in every detail.

John's reluctance to expose some of the worst details PROVES that he never harbored any ill will towards Witness Lee or LSM. It also PROVES that everything written by Lee and LSM about him and others like So, Mallon, and Fung was all lies. History shows us conclusively that there never was a conspiracy to destroy Lee or LSM. What we were told about Ingalls et. al. in meetings and in the book Fermentation... was all lies.

Why? Simple. To preserve the pristine image of WL. In order to do that, he and all his accomplices at LSM had to destroy the reputations of the whistleblowers.

I’ve spent a lot of time reading things but there’s still so much. I went from trying to prove that this was really a site just to attack and wanting to feel like it was all lies to the realization that these are people that have been hurt, like me, by the LC. Maybe not intentionally, but the mental and spiritual damage is there. I’ll be ok- but it’s important to recognize that you probably have some flawed mentalities and ways of thinking after being in such a totalist mindset, Christian or not!

I believe John Ingalls account is factual- if anything just bc I feel his spirit. And I did respect the fact that he didn’t go into the details of Philip Lee’s behavior- even though I wanted to know! You can tell he was following his conscience on that.

I just had an experience with a family member today where I realized even with the “hard evidence” of WL himself admitting that the church in Boston loaned money to his businesses and also LSM loaned money to them (basically incriminating himself), that they can’t hear it. The response was, “I’m sorry you feel that way.” It’s so incredibly frustrating. Of course, when this many people give the same account, there has to be something there! But the recording of WL is ACTUAL PROOF of illegal activity. Unless you want to claim that someone was impersonating him- I don’t see how you can overlook it!

It just made me realize the blinders that are on them.

For me, if WL had come out and apologized for the whole Daystar thing, took responsibly, and repented- that would be different. My issue with it is more the cover up, the attacks on other brothers, the lack of accountability. His response was that of a guilty person. An innocent person is an open book, ready to prove their innocence. I feel like I can rightly assume that given the decades this scandal has been covered up- if the local church leaders could prove it didn’t happen, they would! Instead, there are RECORDINGS and numerous testimonies. Which, by the way, testimonies are admissible in a court of law- yet members in the LC are told (I believe it’s from the book the “overcomers”) that anyone who says anything “negative” (with no definition on what that even means and no verses justifying this statement), is a “wrong” person. You should stay away from this “wrong” person, or you will be contaminated.

Can you believe the blatant cult mentality there? I’ll have to find the quote- I’m not exaggerating. So, what we have is a system of zero accountability, no clear picture on what it means to be negative or a wrong person- just a picture full of fear....Ultimately, no one wants to be “negative” so to call out bad behavior might make you that, make you a “wrong person,” and make other people stay away from you.

It’s apparently working-most people in my locality have started to distance themselves-even my fam.

02-10-2018 06:25 PM

Ohio

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by kumbaya

I'm glad the others recommended "Speaking the Truth in Love," I was going to suggest that. It really helped me. Even then, you'll have to dig a little deeper because John Ingalls refrains from mentioning the specific details of the grave offenses by Philip Lee. He also (and someone please offer an explanation to why if you know!) doesn't mention that the "brother" being excommunicated that the elders were undecided about- was PL.

He mentions the "grave offenses" by PL, but he's very careful not to go into the details. Obviously, we know they were serious in nature due to the fact that excommunication was on the table....

I'm just saying this to encourage you to read ALL the accounts, testimonies, and personal experiences that so many people have to offer before making a judgement. It's been a hard thing for me to do and I'm still coming to terms with the idea that the local church isn't what I thought it was.

02-10-2018 08:17 AM

kumbaya

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by OhLordJesus

Sorry to interrupt your conversation. I am eagerly to know some of the details in this thread especially whether PL sexual abuse is true or not. If so, what was the decision made by WL as a father or a responsible one from the LSM.

02-09-2018 07:05 AM

Nell

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steel

Part of the section you quoted says...

"...I am the victim of a sexual assault and I can promise you "God" was NOT there and neither was Satan. I was alone. ..."

Tell me, Nell...

Do you agree with this person that "...God" was NOT there and neither was Satan. I was alone. ..."?

No. I do not agree.

Nell

02-09-2018 06:59 AM

Steel

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

More fruit of Witness Lee's "ministry." . . . Nell

02-09-2018 05:25 AM

Nell

Re: Whistleblower

More fruit of Witness Lee's "ministry."

Quote:

Originally Posted by KindnessNotBlindness

Zeek, thank you so much for the welcome. Before I respond to your question I will just say that being atheist has brought me so much peace after 34 years, I'm 36, of being in the "church life" and do not want to be persuaded back to religion. I think the transition was inevitable as I felt "God" or any other supreme being is wicked for letting people suffer and blame it on "Satan". ...

I am the victim of a sexual assault and I can promise you "God" was NOT there and neither was Satan. I was alone. ...

The full post is here: http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...97&postcount=3

Nell

02-09-2018 05:14 AM

Ohio

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koinonia

And what was Witness Lee's role?

It is vague and "spiritual" mumbo-jumbo. To cover for the fact that the real issue that opened up the brothers "dissension and rebellion" was the ongoing sexual assault perpetrated by the LSM Manager Philip Lee, and Witness Lee's decade-long cover-up and refusal to deal with it.

Along side the corruption at LSM offices, brothers from around the globe were resisting the onslaught of domination over all the LC's.

The situation in TLR was no different in principle from what we see in the book of Galatians. Judaizers were sent from *Headquarters* to bring the churches under submission to them and not to the Head. Read what Paul wrote as he fought this same battle two millennia ago:

"And it was because of the false brothers, brought in secretly, who stole in to spy out our freedom which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into slavery. To whom we yielded in subjection not even for an hour, that the truth of the gospel might remain with you. But from those who had a reputation as being somebody (whoever they were means nothing, since God does not accept man's person) for to me those who had a reputation imparted nothing." -- Galatians 2.4-6

I doubt the Judaizers even cared about circumcising the Gentiles. It was all to "make a show" anyways. Like LSM was doing behind the scenes, it was all about subjecting others under their control, because as we know power corrupts. Operatives from LSM, who supposedly had a "reputation" by being close to WL and PL were not received by spiritual men.

02-09-2018 04:47 AM

Nell

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by OhLordJesus

Mr Drake,

Sorry to interrupt your conversation. I am eagerly to know some of the details in this thread especially whether PL sexual abuse is true or not. If so, what was the decision made by WL as a father or a responsible one from the LSM. I thought you had all the details since you asked many challenged questions to some members here. Could you please enlighten me?

Thank you, sir.

This is laid out for you beginning with the first post of the topic. Note that even WL never disputed the accusations against his son. Also, since the article appeared in the Los Angeles Times, and since the LSM does not now OWN the LA Times we can conclude there was no libel lawsuit wherein the LSM prevailed.

This should save you some research time. However, do read Speaking the Truth in Love for a clear picture of the events.

Nell

02-09-2018 04:39 AM

Koinonia

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Spiritual mumbo jumbo? Vague?

Let’s drill down on this vague spiritual mumbo jumbo.

Drake

Sure, go ahead.

02-09-2018 04:30 AM

Drake

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koinonia

And what was Witness Lee's role?

The May 15, 1990 "An Open Letter From the Churches in California" document reads (in part):

Since the fall of 1987, the churches here have suffered under the dissension and rebellion led by four brothers who were once among us: Joseph Fung, John So, Bill Mallon, and John Ingalls. In the beginning many things were done and said by these brothers in a way that was both subtle and hidden. As a result, a number of saints were deceived and thus did not know the true nature of what was taking place. Today, however, there is no question about where these brothers stand. We do not like to see any more of the saints damaged by opening themselves innocently to the words spoke by these brothers. Therefore, we feel that we must warn the churches of the true standing of these four and their followers.

These four brothers 1) have denied the standing of the churches in the Lord’s recovery; 2) have produced divisive meetings; 3) have attempted to draw saints away from the local churches to follow after themselves; and 4) have made unfounded and malicious attacks upon some leading brothers in the recovery, and especially upon Brother Lee and his ministry.

It is vague and "spiritual" mumbo-jumbo. To cover for the fact that the real issue that opened up the brothers "dissension and rebellion" was the ongoing sexual assault perpetrated by the LSM Manager Philip Lee, and Witness Lee's decade-long cover-up and refusal to deal with it.

Spiritual mumbo jumbo? Vague?

Let’s drill down on this vague spiritual mumbo jumbo.

Drake

02-09-2018 04:25 AM

Koinonia

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

And what was Witness Lee's role?

Quote:

If this was the only reason they were quarantined then I do not think they should have been. Was this the only reason John Ingalls was quarantined? What was the stated reason? Let's have a look and we can agree or disagree.

Drake

The May 15, 1990 "An Open Letter From the Churches in California" document reads (in part):

Since the fall of 1987, the churches here have suffered under the dissension and rebellion led by four brothers who were once among us: Joseph Fung, John So, Bill Mallon, and John Ingalls. In the beginning many things were done and said by these brothers in a way that was both subtle and hidden. As a result, a number of saints were deceived and thus did not know the true nature of what was taking place. Today, however, there is no question about where these brothers stand. We do not like to see any more of the saints damaged by opening themselves innocently to the words spoke by these brothers. Therefore, we feel that we must warn the churches of the true standing of these four and their followers.

These four brothers 1) have denied the standing of the churches in the Lord’s recovery; 2) have produced divisive meetings; 3) have attempted to draw saints away from the local churches to follow after themselves; and 4) have made unfounded and malicious attacks upon some leading brothers in the recovery, and especially upon Brother Lee and his ministry.

It is vague and "spiritual" mumbo-jumbo. To cover for the fact that the real issue that opened up the brothers "dissension and rebellion" was the ongoing sexual assault perpetrated by the LSM Manager Philip Lee, and Witness Lee's decade-long cover-up and refusal to deal with it.

02-09-2018 03:47 AM

Drake

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

So Drake, I'm so surprised that you did not recommend that book of lies and smear job which Lee published about these same events called Fermentation of the Present Rebellion. What a libelous rag that was.

Ohio,

Seeing how he is a newbie I didn’t want to overwhelm him. However, you should feel free to send him your copy.

Drake

02-09-2018 03:27 AM

Ohio

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

You are not interrupting. That was an answer to a question you asked me.

My enlightenment for you is this.....If you read this thread and others like it from beginning to end you will know who knows what, who thinks what, and why they believe as they do and any assumptions they are making, what is based on sound reasoning verses fallacy in argumentation and where fact ends and opinion begins. Ohio has pointed you to reference material that we sometimes use as a basis for our conversations. Read that too. All for free unless you feel to contribute monetarily to the cause.

Since you are a self admitted eager learner not knowing little about this topic then I suggest you start there. Once you understand what has already been discussed then you will offer your own informed opinion and insight and may have some questions along the way. Some here will become your cheerleaders like LofT, some may challenge you, and some may pay no attention to you at all. No worries though, it’s all part of the discourse that takes place in here so don’t take anything personal.

Well, that should jump start you here so I hope that helps.

Oh, one more thing... I almost forgot... silly me. If you find someone is baiting you, or asking entrapment questions, or starts badgering you, my advice is that you put them on your ignore list. Works every time. So, if someone stops answering your questions you might be on that person’s ignore list. Or maybe that person just thinks your posts are irrelevant.... but if that happens to you don’t be alarmed because you’ll learn.

Drake

02-09-2018 03:09 AM

Drake

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by OhLordJesus

You are not interrupting. That was an answer to a question you asked me.

My enlightenment for you is this.....If you read this thread and others like it from beginning to end you will know who knows what, who thinks what, and why they believe as they do and any assumptions they are making, what is based on sound reasoning verses fallacy in argumentation and where fact ends and opinion begins. Ohio has pointed you to reference material that we sometimes use as a basis for our conversations. Read that too. All for free unless you feel to contribute monetarily to the cause.

Since you are a self admitted eager learner knowing little about this topic then I suggest you start there. Once you understand what has already been discussed then you will offer your own informed opinion and insight and may have some questions along the way. Some here will become your cheerleaders like LofT, some may challenge you, and some may pay no attention to you at all. Some may even become your teachers. Choose wisely. No worries though, it’s all part of the discourse that takes place in here so don’t take anything personal.

Well, that should jump start you here so I hope that helps.

Oh, one more thing... I almost forgot... silly me. If you find someone is baiting you, or asking entrapment questions, or starts badgering you, my advice is that you put them on your ignore list. Works every time. So, if someone stops answering your questions you might be on that person’s ignore list. Or maybe that person just thinks your posts are irrelevant.... but if that happens to you don’t be alarmed because you’ll learn.

Drake

02-09-2018 02:46 AM

Ohio

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by OhLordJesus

OhLordJesus, did you read John Ingalls' lengthy account of these events in Speaking The Truth in Love?

It's posted on the sub-forum "Writings of former members."

02-08-2018 09:34 PM

OhLordJesus

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Uummm. Because Koinonia and I are conversing?

02-08-2018 07:11 PM

Drake

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered

If you don't know, why don't you ask Ron Kangas?

Uummm. Because Koinonia and I are conversing?

02-08-2018 06:57 PM

TLFisher

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steel

I'd simply say "Amen, Lord... You open doors and You close doors... Lord, I'll wait on You to open another door... And do so praising You and rejoicing in You."

And why?

Because they have been following their own natural preference/affinity... And not the Lord.

Which is why the Lord comes in and removes believers from their familiar, comfortable, preferred environments.

Amen! One door closes and another door opens.

You ask and why? Loved ones I know. Parents, family friends etc who have been in the fellowship of local churches for 40-50 years. That's where the bulk of their Christian experience lies. Realize or not, the ground of locality teaching does have it's hold. The question would be asked, "where would I go?".
Yes, I'm aware of the "familiar, comfortable, preferred environments." That's one of the traits I seem to notice about denominations. Whether one is raised as a Lutheran, a Baptist, or in the Local Churches, there is willingness to meet apart from those places of fellowship.

02-08-2018 05:13 PM

Unregistered

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Koinonia,
Of course, the elders are responsible for the administration in the local church. Scripture is clear on that point....

Mr Drake,

You have been with LC for 4 decades, you should know the actual reasons why John Ingalls was quarantined, instead of asking, could you share why he was quarantined? I am quite eager to know the truth also.

If you don't know, why don't you ask Ron Kangas?
Thanks.

02-08-2018 02:38 PM

Drake

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koinonia

Drake, I am willing to answer most any question you ask of me--but to make it work, you have to answer mine too. And since you did, I'll give you yours:
No. However, to me--it is almost a moot point, as the Anaheim elders were not responsible. For whatever reason, you want me to fault the Anaheim elders for not doing enough. And yet you believe--presumably--that Witness Lee was right to quarantine them for involving themselves at all. This does not make sense.

Koinonia,

Of course, the elders are responsible for the administration in the local church. Scripture is clear on that point.

If crimes were being committed then of course, they should have done more.

If immorality, sin, and other such awful things were happening then they were responsible to address it in their office as elders..... but if no crime then it would have been dealt with according to their judgement.

If this was the only reason they were quarantined then I do not think they should have been. Was this the only reason John Ingalls was quarantined? What was the stated reason? Let's have a look and we can agree or disagree.

Drake

02-08-2018 02:34 PM

Steel

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terry

I was clear on that.

But my response was focused on "...being shunned and expelled..." from what?

A particular meeting of believers in the local church (local church being all believers in an area)?

Whose problem would that be if before the Lord those who were "...being shunned and expelled..." were actually standing in the Lord... And those doing the shunning and expelling were not doing so in the Lord?

Not mine if it were related to me.

I'd simply say "Amen, Lord... You open doors and You close doors... Lord, I'll wait on You to open another door... And do so praising You and rejoicing in You."

People have problems with being shunned and expelled because they are holding to their vanity and not Christ.

Matthew 5:10... "Blessed are those who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of the heavens."

Matthew 5:11... "Blessed are you when they reproach and persecute you, and while speaking lies, say every evil thing against you because of Me."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terry

Given Christ doesn't marginalize or expel any believer, but receiving everyone is not practiced in the local churches.

Well... Welcome to the way of the fallen man that corrupts us all... Us all being all of us born again believers in Christ.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terry

Ones who may have been shunned or marginalized may become unwelcome for fellowship and may even be escorted out when attempting to meet with a given locality.

Oh boohoo.

Suck it up, take the way of the cross... Be brought into resurrection life... And rejoice all the way through the next door that the Lord opens for you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terry

The alternative of saying go meet with another assembly is easy to say, but not easy to do for ones whose Christian fellowship has been primarily among the local churches.

And why?

Because they have been following their own natural preference/affinity... And not the Lord.

Which is why the Lord comes in and removes believers from their familiar, comfortable, preferred environments.

Shoot...

If I could I'd just rent the building next door to the building I was just escorted from and carry on with the Lord without loosing a step... Make it easy for anyone else who suffers the same... Same ministry speaking... Same recovered way... With the hope that the Lord would in His mercy and grace save myself and any I meet with from becoming religious also.

02-08-2018 02:18 PM

Steel

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

If I were still attending LSM's trainings, then I would believe the builded bride looks like thousands of little "Witness Lee tape recorders" spouting off his footnotes on demand.

Or so you think you would.

Abiding in one's natural man will cause any of us to see things according to our offended feelings.

02-08-2018 11:59 AM

ZNPaaneah

Re: Whistleblower

My issue with the LRC is not PL, or Ben M., etc. An individual who sins does not destroy the entire assembly, particularly since the vast majority of saints in the LRC were unaware and uninvolved in PL's sins or BM's, etc.

My issue is with the way in which the LRC dealt with the sins, especially those that did become aware.

What did WL do when he first became aware of PL's sins? How did he act to protect saints serving in the LSM? How did he work with PL for him to deal with his sins? Regardless of how you want to cut it the evidence strongly supports the assertion that WL worked to cover up his son's sins, to slander and discredit any who might know of his sins, and to excommunicate any who would stand for righteousness.

Likewise I don't have an issue with JI and the other elders. They were clearly in a very difficult situation, between a rock and a hard place. If any is going to judge them it should be the Lord. Perhaps they could have done a better job, I don't know. What I do know is they took this seriously and acted to deal with the sin.

My issue is with the puppet elders who took their place and wrote an apology letter to PL because "it pleased WL".

In the world if a person in authority like the FBI or College President, or key Olympic official is aware of allegations of misconduct they need to take responsibility. You can claim that you are not responsible right up to the moment you learned of the allegations. From that moment on you will be held accountable for how you act. If further misconduct takes place after you have learned of the allegations then that may be held to your account.

I have not heard any evidence that WL or other key elders were involved in sexual misconduct, however I have heard evidence that their actions after learning were not without reproach.

In this recent Olympic scandal I am most impressed with one girl who was 17 when she made her allegations. It took 14 years for others to finally do their job and convict this guy, but she stood her ground for 14 years.

02-08-2018 11:51 AM

TLFisher

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steel

"...marginalized and expelled..." from what?

Every born again believer in Christ is... Well... IN... CHRIST... Eternally.

And corporately... The entire church is... IN... Christ.

And Christ doesn't marginalize or expell any believer.

So, again... Marginalized and expelled from what?

I believe the points Ohio was trying to make to Steel is that whistleblowing tends to result in a person and their family in being shunned and expelled. The fallout from being shunned is the issues at hand become marginalized.

Given Christ doesn't marginalize or expel any believer, but receiving everyone is not practiced in the local churches. Ones who may have been shunned or marginalized may become unwelcome for fellowship and may even be escorted out when attempting to meet with a given locality.
The alternative of saying go meet with another assembly is easy to say, but not easy to do for ones whose Christian fellowship has been primarily among the local churches.

02-08-2018 09:49 AM

UntoHim

Re: Whistleblower

Thread is back open
PLEASE ADDRESS THE ISSUES AT HAND AND AVOID GETTING PERSONAL.
IT IS THE VICTIMS THAT DESERVE CIVIL DISCOURSE HERE, SO LET'S ALL TRY TO REMEMBER THIS WHEN POSTING.
PLEASE REFRAIN FROM PRESSING OR EVEN INQUIRING ABOUT A POSTER'S IDENTITY, AFFILIATIONS OR LOCATION.
PLEASE REFRAIN FROM MAKING ANYTHING PERSONAL.

02-07-2018 06:15 AM

Koinonia

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Koinonia,

Wait, not fair? Let me clarify why your questions are not simple and straightforward and why they are entrapment questions.

Of course you have another question. That was purpose of the last one! You have several more to follow. Your questions are like bird crumbs that lead to a box propped up by a stick with a string attached to the stick. Oh my, what’s that all about?

It is craft on your part. If Drake answers this way then you’ll ask that ... but if he answers that way you’ll accuse him of that..... ad nauseam. That is why you won’t answer my questions to you. Yours are leading questions like a lawyer who insists “Mr. Drake, just answer the question! I’m asking the questions here!”

But, no worries. I don’t feel entrapped because it is not that clever. It is kinda cute actually but not funny because the topics are so serious. I don’t find that kind of engagement meaningful or beneficial and since that is the mode you are operating in I put you on my ignore list. If you ever want to have a dialogue then I am always willing to converse with a brother.

Thanks
Drake

Drake, I am willing to answer most any question you ask of me--but to make it work, you have to answer mine too. And since you did, I'll give you yours:

Quote:

Do you think excommunication was sufficient?

No. However, to me--it is almost a moot point, as the Anaheim elders were not responsible. For whatever reason, you want me to fault the Anaheim elders for not doing enough. And yet you believe--presumably--that Witness Lee was right to quarantine them for involving themselves at all. This does not make sense.

02-07-2018 06:15 AM

Drake

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

Until sexual sin, sexual abuse, molestation, rape, in the Local Churches is exposed and the offenders are excommunicated publicly that all may fear, you don't have a leg to stand on. If you know it's happening and do nothing, it's on you. Until you confront leadership about this ongoing sin against the Body of Christ, don't talk about some kind of fictitious "higher bar".

Nell

Sorry Nell. Cant let you skate on that one no matter how much I agree with your main point.

Post the evidence of the rape you allege. Specifically. I do NOT know it’s happening.

02-07-2018 06:01 AM

Drake

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koinonia

Drake, this is not fair. You say that my query ("Was Witness Lee wrong to oppose Philip Lee's excommunication?") was an "entrapment question." Yet, most anyone else would consider it completely simple and straightforward (and thank you for answering it).

A follow-up would be: "If Witness Lee was wrong for opposing Philip Lee's excommunication, was he also wrong for quarantining John Ingalls?" But don't feel entrapped; don't worry--this time it's rhetorical.

Koinonia,

Wait, not fair? Let me clarify why your questions are not simple and straightforward and why they are entrapment questions.

Of course you have another question. That was the purpose of the last one! You have several more to follow. Your questions are like bird crumbs that lead to a box propped up by a stick with a string attached to the stick. Oh my, what’s that all about?

02-07-2018 05:53 AM

Nell

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Nell,

I have been an advocate and supporter of your call to action. If a crime was committed call the cops. Drop a dime. Anonymously if needed. I even suggested that the labor board be contacted... start a civil suit which has a lower bar to clear to prove guilt. I am a champion of your main point. Blow the whistle long and loud.

However, in the particular examples given, I have to trust the judgement in this scenario of the elders. Repulsive, yes. Criminal? Not proven. Else they would have called the cops. You have to allow that the suggestion of force is not proof of it. It is a sad reality that not every accusation or allegation is to be believed as is. Someone claims they were forced, maybe they were. Sometimes it is consensual as the first instance indicated that Max addressed. Maybe it was pressure from a manager, that too is criminal. But it has to be proved. Consensus in this forum is not proof. I believe your personal account, no reason not to. So this is not about that.

But if in doubt... make the call. Do something. I am for that. I agree with your main point. It should be reported. Let the authorities sort it out. Prosecute. Civil suit.

But if it is not rape don't call it rape. That bar is higher.. or should be with us.

Drake

Drake,

That's not your call.

Don't make this issue about you and what you think should have been done 40 years ago. Witness Lee is dead. As far as we know, Lee carried his sin with him to his multi-million dollar grave.

What about today? There are predators in the Local Church TODAY who are sexually abusing women who are vulnerable to Lee's "ministry". There is sin in the camp at the expense of women. You may believe you have hit on some kind of noble perspective that involves clarity on the use of the word "rape", I daresay every woman reading this forum is rolling her eyes in disbelief. Do you think Philip Lee's victims believe they were sexually abused, or, raped? Do you think it matters to them what words YOU use to define what happened to THEM?

"But if it is not rape don't call it rape. That bar is higher.. or should be with us." Really??? What a joke. There IS NO BAR in the Local Church. In the Local Church it's open season on women. Anything goes. Even if a predator gets caught...no problem. "Cover the brothers."

This forum has plenty on Lee's teaching on women...put them in their place...shut them up and do what they're told...ad nauseum. How convenient. What a fertile environment for a sick sexual predator.

Until sexual sin, sexual abuse, molestation, rape, in the Local Churches is exposed and the offenders are excommunicated publicly that all may fear, you don't have a leg to stand on. If you know it's happening and do nothing, it's on you. Until you confront leadership about this ongoing sin against the Body of Christ, don't talk about some kind of fictitious "higher bar".

Nell

02-07-2018 05:05 AM

Ohio

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

-1

And that last post is the perfect example of what I meant.

You got it bad, bro. Real bad.

Did you already forget how to use the "QUOTE" button, or are you purposely snubbing the moderator's requests?

Drake, you still have not told us what part you played in the coverup. You know my history, where I am from, and my "psychological state," but we know nothing about you. What are you hiding? What was your role with LSM during the New Way and its aftermath?

Since you have *finally* admitted that it was wrong for Witness Lee to oppose the excommunication of his son Philip, then was Witness Lee also wrong for Quarantining John Ingalls?

02-07-2018 04:26 AM

Drake

Re: Whistleblower

-1

And that last post is the perfect example of what I meant.

You got it bad, bro. Real bad.

02-07-2018 02:58 AM

Ohio

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Don’t need to be a shrink to see this serious case of obsession. My goodness Ohio. You cannot carry on a conversation without spewing the same rhetorical nonsense. You refuse to put up with common sense and civil discourse.... I suppose you are not used to that.

Drake, Obviously the whole sordid history of Philip Lee as the CEO, as "The Office," of LSM strikes a nerve with you. You really need to come clean and get over that. Usually outbursts of anger like yours over past events indicates a guilty conscience. I would encourage you to go to the Lord about what part you played during that awful period when Philip Lee ran LSM with a rod of iron, bringing all the workers, all the elders, and all the LC's under total subjection. (Perhaps you also had a hand in the coverup efforts too.)

Here is some encouragement from the Apostle John, "if you confess your sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

02-07-2018 12:14 AM

Koinonia

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Not a bit. If you were paying attention to my previous posts you would know what my view would be. It was only your darkened understanding that prevents you from seeing the obvious.

Drake

02-06-2018 10:03 PM

Drake

Re: Whistleblower

Awareness>”But the testimony from Speaking The Truth in Love doesn't say any of that. “

Right, Awareness.

Look, we all agree with Nell’s main point. Forced sex of any type is a crime. Report it. Workplace harassment? Report it. File a civil suit.

Adultery, fornication, immorality.... it’s with parents, spouses, elders, etc. it is terrible but law enforcement won’t do a thing about that until it turns into a crime... a law enforcement issue.

But don’t call it a crime when there is no evidence it’s a crime. I say, call it what it is so the right people can deal with it. All the evidence suggests that is how JI saw it.. not a matter for the police.

Drake

02-06-2018 09:29 PM

Drake

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Hi Drake, are you like some internet pseudo-shrink?

I think you got me mixed up with someone else.

I simply refuse to put up with your LC hypocrisy, and you obviously are not used to that.

02-06-2018 09:17 PM

Drake

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Thank you. Now was that so hard?

Not a bit. If you were paying attention to my previous posts you would know what my view would be. It was only your darkened understanding that prevents you from seeing the obvious.

Drake

02-06-2018 08:46 PM

awareness

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Don't put that on me., awareness.

I'd be happy for Ohio to disavow it once and for all. Gave him plenty of opportunity to do it, I said he reserves the right to change his mind, I said he can clarify it if that is not what he meant......all sorts of face saving ways out of it.....but instead he replies with he can only go by what the witnesses who were there said. How convenient.

So, it is actually worse, it has morphed into the subtle innuendo vs the original outright accusation. A wink wink nod nod type of accusation. It really does not matter how long ago Ohio alleged rape by PL. He did. He did not have to see it firsthand. His allegation is secondhand. So what? Until and unless Ohio declares his changed belief we can assume he still holds onto it.

Ohio, disavow that PL committed or attempted rape once and for all. Then we can leave that accusation in the garbage pit where it belongs.

Drake

Thanks for clearing this up, or trying to anyway. Sorry, but I don't see a claim of rape either. And what I mean by rape is forced unconsensual sex.

But some could mean something else by rape, such as uninvited unwanted groping. That is, I suppose, a kind of rape. Unwanted force is at play.

But the testimony from Speaking The Truth in Love doesn't say any of that.

I don't know. Did the sister do things she didn't really want to do? But since it was Witness Lee's son, who was clearly in the inner circle of the leader she was giving her life to, she went along with it? Then was stricken by her conscience, and then came to the elder about it?

Unless there's contradictory evidence, that's one possible explanation for what went on in the LSM office.

I guess we need to define what we mean by rape.

02-06-2018 08:26 PM

Ohio

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

But, that was not my decision and it was not your decision, was it? The difference is that you are obsessed with it....or rather it possesses you. The failure of others is the basis of your church life and by all indicators your christian life as well. Your words express all that is in your heart. Every post reveals your angst, your anger, your hatred toward brothers in the Lord.

Drake

Hi Drake, are you like some internet pseudo-shrink?

I think you got me mixed up with someone else.

I simply refuse to put up with your LC hypocrisy, and you obviously are not used to that.

02-06-2018 08:17 PM

awareness

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

My point then and now is the same: Why didn't Witness Lee, who knew the degenerate character of his son, place him in charge at LSM over all the elders and workers? Why did he then cover up for Philip, rather than act as a man of God, act with decency, act according to the scriptures, and act according to the law?

Why? I don't know. But it's obvious to me that what Lee expected of us, he wasn't welling to give the same ... to his own ministry. It must not have been worth as must he sold it as. Or he would have been as all in as we were ... for his ministry ... his own ministry.

02-06-2018 07:37 PM

Ohio

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Ohio,

I find it amusing how you latch onto a question that you think is the gotcha of all gotchas... Koinomia has been wringing his hands wanting me to answer this question.... He should funnel all his questions through you so I will answer them ... ... until he starts acting like a brother wanting to have a conversation and less like an inquisitor demanding answers to his entrapment questions.

Ready? Sit down... here comes the answer! Russians! Bombshell!

The answer to that question is easier from my chair than it was from the chairs for those who had to make that decision.

Brother Lee should not have opposed his son's excommunication.

ok?

Thank you. Now was that so hard?

02-06-2018 05:41 PM

Drake

Re: Whistleblower

Ohio>"Let me repeat. Why will not say if Witness Lee was wrong for opposing Philip Lee's excommunication?"

Ohio,

I find it amusing how you latch onto a question that you think is the gotcha of all gotchas... Koinomia has been wringing his hands wanting me to answer this question.... He should funnel all his questions through you so I will answer them ... ... until he starts acting like a brother wanting to have a conversation and less like an inquisitor demanding answers to his entrapment questions.

Ready? Sit down... here comes the answer! Russians! Bombshell!

The answer to that question is easier from my chair than it was from the chairs for those who had to make that decision.

Brother Lee should not have opposed his son's excommunication.

ok?

But, that was not my decision and it was not your decision, was it? The difference is that you are obsessed with it....or rather it possesses you. The failure of others is the basis of your church life and by all indicators your christian life as well. Your words express all that is in your heart. Every post reveals your angst, your anger, your hatred toward brothers in the Lord. Rather, you should know that every man, save One, is a failure at best. You, me, Brother Lee are the same in that way. Brother Lee was a servant of the Lord, but at the most fundamental level he was a brother in the Lord. His misjudgement in this matter of PL does not negate the anointing of his ministry. When I read the Life-study of Genesis or Christ Vs. Religion for example, I do not think "oh, he defended his son, I will throw this all away". What an insult that would be to the Lord's ministry and His anointing.

Rather, all failures are a test to the vision the Lord gave me. It is not dependent on any man. If it is then it should vanish. You mocked following the anointing. But, unless you follow the anointing you will fall into error. I think you followed a man, Witness Lee, at some time in your life... and when he stumbled, you stumbled. You were wrong to follow a man then and you are more wrong to mock following the anointing now. I do not follow a man, never have since coming into the Lord's Recovery. I do not feel any need to defend LSM. Not an inkling. I follow the anointing and today that anointing is on the ministry that produces local churches to build up the Body of Christ and bring the Lord back. If the anointing moves I will by His mercy and grace recognize it and follow it.

You have your reasons for feeling the way you do but those reasons have boxed you in. Every conversation is the same now.... like being caught in an infinite loop... but not infinite because when the Lord comes back all your harsh words will end. Then you will be released.

Drake

02-06-2018 04:17 PM

Ohio

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Rather, if my spirit is provoked it is because I find your reviling and railing allegations and innuendo of rape a lawless piling on.

Drake, what is reviling is the way Witness Lee treated John Ingalls, slander him before all of his brothers and sisters. Railing allegations and innuendo are what filled the despicable book Fermentation of the Present Rebellion. Rape is what the husband of that molested sister at LSM thought of, which is why he went to get a gun and shoot Philip Lee. Piling on is what Lee and the Blendeds have done for years to those who cry out for righteousness.

Hey Drake, why will not say if Witness Lee was wrong for opposing Philip Lee's excommunication?

Let me repeat. Why will not say if Witness Lee was wrong for opposing Philip Lee's excommunication?

And here is an odd inconsistency. You and others claim to have the highest respect for Witness Lee, the acting God, the Minister of the Age, during this time period. Yet, Witness Lee constantly promised the elders that he would take care of his son. He should have called the cops, but he did not. He should have fired his son, but he did not. He should have taken the proper action any minister of the Lord would take, but he did not ... so either he was dishonest, delinquent, negligent, or complicit in the very same crimes committed by his son Philip.

Why should John Ingalls have reported a crime at LSM months before he learned about it? He did not work at LSM. Philip Lee never met in the church he shepherded. Why did Benson Philips and Ray Graver do nothing, yet they knew all about what happened? What about all the other employees at LSM? Why did they do nothing? They too are complicit of PL's crimes. Why did Kangas and Marks say nothing? Robichaux just took over Ingalls' translation work, so he had a financial motive to remain silent. The rest of LSM's employees faced termination if they spoke up, yet they did nothing on behalf of that little sister.

Shame on the entire LSM organization! They exalt man and not God. They fear man and not God. One day they will all face His judgment seat for their action and inaction.

Well brother Drake, I just hope your own life record is as righteous as you demand of others. You are part of a ministry which daily condemns the entirety of Christianity. I really hope your conduct in life has been free of sin, immorality, and failures. Has not your abundant pride preceded your fall? You will be judged according to the standard by which you judge others. Your life record will be played to a broad audience someday. Ready for that?

I say are you ready for that?

02-06-2018 03:47 PM

Drake

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

Would that make you feel better...Drake...? ...deciding, once and for all...what word to attach to a woman's ultimate humiliation? Her ultimate violation by the son of the man who she likely respected above all others? You weren't there. You don't get to decide. That you even insist on making it about what Ohio believes is totally perverse.

The women who were his victims know what word to use. They were forced. If it happened to your wife...your mother...your sister...would you be so cavalier?

Just leave it in the garbage pit and walk away.

Nell

Nell,

I have been an advocate and supporter of your call to action. If a crime was committed call the cops. Drop a dime. Anonymously if needed. I even suggested that the labor board be contacted... start a civil suit which has a lower bar to clear to prove guilt. I am a champion of your main point. Blow the whistle long and loud.

However, in the particular examples given, I have to trust the judgement in this scenario of the elders. Repulsive, yes. Criminal? Not proven. Else they would have called the cops. You have to allow that the suggestion of force is not proof of it. It is a sad reality that not every accusation or allegation is to be believed as is. Someone claims they were forced, maybe they were. Sometimes it is consensual as the first instance indicated that Max addressed. Maybe it was pressure from a manager, that too is criminal. But it has to be proved. Consensus in this forum is not proof. I believe your personal account, no reason not to. So this is not about that.

But if in doubt... make the call. Do something. I am for that. I agree with your main point. It should be reported. Let the authorities sort it out. Prosecute. Civil suit.

But if it is not rape don't call it rape. That bar is higher.. or should be with us.

Drake

02-06-2018 03:47 PM

Ohio

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steel

Exactly what scripture tells us... His builded bride.

Do you know what this bride looks like?

You should.

If I were still attending LSM's trainings, then I would believe the builded bride looks like thousands of little "Witness Lee tape recorders" spouting off his footnotes on demand.

02-06-2018 03:29 PM

Steel

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Local Churchers talk a lot about "bringing the Lord back". What will he come back to?

Exactly what scripture tells us... His builded bride.

Do you know what this bride looks like?

You should.

02-06-2018 03:26 PM

Steel

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Brother Steel, thanks for responding. So far we are in agreement with what you have written, so I will limit responses to your questions.

Oneness among the siants is always a good thing my brother.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Witness Lee was presented to the LC members as a consummate "Minister of the Age."..."

No such designation in scripture.

And if the "...LC members..." did there due diligence regarding their searching the scriptures they would have know this.

Also... Hopefully being born again of the Spirit, and therefore having the Spirit in them to turn to so that the Spirit could reveal the reality of the situation... They would not have had to depend on what others presented Witness Lee as.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

For years the workers and elders protected him and his sons' unrighteous activities.

Fallen humans do fallen human things.

Read scripture... It says so very clearly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Any member who voiced concerns was marginalized, and later expelled.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

In many cases, their reputations were smeared before the church.

Praise the Lord.

Are you not familiar with this scripture verses...

Matthew 5:11... "Blessed are you when they reproach and persecute you, and while speaking lies, say every evil thing against you because of Me."

Or do you just choose to not believe it.

And don't you know that scripture tells us that a believer must suffer even as the Lord suffered... And that we learn (grow with the growth of God) in and through our sufferings?

Surely you know this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Are not church leaders held to higher standards?

Those who are put in positions of leadership by the Lord are held to the requirements of their given position.

The standard that they are held to is the same standard all believers are held to... That standard being Christ Jesus.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Do they not have the responsibility to protect the church of God?

In Christ, yes.

Not in their natural humanity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Do not church leaders have the responsibility to vet out contrived rumors received from headquarters before publishing them as "truth?"

Elders of a local church should always carefully consider anything being applied to the duties of their position.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Yes, God does allow many things to be exposed in the Recovery.

In chapter 6 of the book titled with his name, Isaiah tells us that he found that out.

God is like shining light... And when He comes in, His shining spontaneously exposes the true condition of what it is shining on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

He has also used this forum to shine a spotlight on LSM rulers' abuses.

He certainly could... But then scripture tells us that God can take even that which was meant for evil and bring about good.

Try not to be boastful in your fallen humanity my brother.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

In my case, for 30+ years I did "look forward" just as you suggested, ignoring all the "negative opposition" I had heard.

Wonderful.

But I didn't say or suggest anyone ignore anything... Did I.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

But LC leaders are skillful in exploiting that virtue in you, and me, and others.

Scripture tells us that Satan is a cunning, crafty enemy.

One whom only the Lord is able to be victorious over.

Which is why we should always be found in the Lord at all times.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Paul, however, challenged us to "prove all things" and hang on to the good, (Rom 12.2, I Thess 5.21) and not to trust men blindly.

Which I certainly subscribe to... And have said this on these threads.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Great points, brother. You obviously have some words of wisdom which I did not possess in those days. In fact, no one in the LC's spoke like that!

The Lord gives each of us a measure of grace according to His need.

Don't be downcast by what has past... Be uplifted by what must come.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

I have often said that perhaps my biggest failure was "trusting the brothers too much."

My brother... You are in Christ... His victory is your victory... You are only a failure when you fail to see and enter into this reality... And yet... Even then... It is the life that is in you... His life... That ensures your victory.

And that life cannot be defeated.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Hebrews 13.17 was often used in those early days, "Obey the ones leading you and submit to them, for they watch over your souls as those who will give an account."

Yes...

Look at Joseph... His beginning was awful... But his end was wonderful.

It's not how we begin our race my brother... It's how we finish our race.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Unfortunately, many LC elders only believe they need to "give an account" to LSM.

Each one is responsible for themselves.

Be responsible for yourself before the Lord.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Be careful how you trust the brothers in Austin!

I try my brother... And by God's mercy, I have brothers I can fellowship with about all matters as the Lord leads.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

I do have this Spirit of reality and believe these truths.

Amen... Now what is important is how you apply this reality... Will you do so in and for the Lord?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Here may I protest, being an older brother in the Lord, and speaking from the wisdom of scriptures?

I try to listen to all that a person is telling me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Paul told Timothy that, "All scripture is God-breathed and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." The scripture does not just instruct us to "seek His face, behold His glory, and dwell in His house," it also provides much admonition. (I Cor 10.11)

Absolutely.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

For example, Acts 20.30 warns us of those like Witness Lee who "speak perverted things and draw the disciples after them." Perhaps you ignored that warning I spoke in a previous post.

Witness Lee has been dead for over 20 years. He can speak nothing. Dead people cannot speak.

He is no threat to me.

And as long as I continously seek the Lord, and hold to what scripture tells me, and follow the leading of the Spirit, I'll be walking in the light of God and have fellowship with Him and other believers.

When it comes to his ministry... I am fine with what brother Lee has presented.

As a human... I didn't know him, so I have nothing to say about the brother.

Let the dead bury the dead.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

3 John 9 warned us of those like Diotrephes who "loved to be first among the brothers."

For sure... So did Jesus.

But we all have natural ambition my brother... Towards one thing or another, and to one degree or another.

And so, yes... Always keep watch.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

If I have seen many children of God over the years damaged by this ministry, should I not warn others to be careful?

Absolutely... But do so in life... By abiding in and speaking out of your regenerated spirit.

Not in death, by speaking in and out of the offended feelings of your fallen natural man.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

And once you know better, are you not also responsible?

My brother... Don't think to know what I know.

02-06-2018 03:13 PM

Drake

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Drake, it is you who are digging thru the garbage. Don't they call that "dumpster diving." You jumped in head first trying to rescue LSM. It's really sad that you can not distinguish between actual accusations and my dismay that Witness Lee would risk "scandals regarding rape and immorality" at his ministry.

Going back to my original 7-year-old comment that Drake is so obsessed with here, I wondered then and now why WL would not just funnel money to his kids? It was a conversation between Don Hardy and Samuel Cheng, W. Nee's brother-in-law, that alerted the readers to WL's long-term guilt concerning his sons. Why not just give them money? Why place Philip in charge at LSM, knowing what he was prone to do with women, thus risking "scandals regarding rape and immorality" at his ministry. Scandals which we are still discussing!

Ohio,

I have no need to "rescue" LSM. That is silly. Why would that be even needed? Rescue LSM from .....you? You could post 1000 more times on this topic, another 50 years of posting.... and it would not affect anything in the least at LSM. I have made my view clear... I'll repeat again for your benefit: Anything that could be destroyed should be destroyed. No props are needed. No rescue is needed. If it is not a work of ministry of the Lord then it will fall. It will fail. If it is the work of ministry raised up by the Lord then nothing you say or do here will ever affect it.

Rather, if my spirit is provoked it is because I find your reviling and railing allegations and innuendo of rape a lawless piling on. That there was sexual immorality is an awful, terrible, and repulsive thing... that you would heap on criminal allegations of rape in the face of evidence to the contrary is even worse. You appear to take special delight in dancing on the failures of others. Dumpster diving? You have taken up residence in it. Scandals? You decorate them. Obsession? I've never seen anyone so continuously preoccupied with ideas or thoughts about PL as you are. Well brother Ohio, I just hope your own life record is as righteous as you demand of others. I really hope your conduct in life has been free of sin, immorality, and failures. We will be judged according to standard by which we judged others. Our life record will be played to a broad audience someday. Ready for that?

You have had several opportunities to deny the allegation of rape. You didn't. I tried. You refused. The reader can decide now.

And here is an odd inconsistency. You and others claim to have the highest respect for John Ingalls the elder in the church in Anaheim during this time. Yet, Brother John never called the cops... so either he was delinquent, negligent, and complicit in the crime you allege by his inaction or ..... it did not reach the level of a crime. Would the John Ingalls you knew have reported a crime if he believed one was being committed? Yes, I believe he would have. Rather, his estimation was that it was a matter to be dealt with by the church. Did he not indicate that? Why? Because he considered it sin, or immorality, or something of the genre that the elders should deal with. Not the cops. Had he called the cops for something other than a crime, they would have told him the same thing Benson told him. They would have said that he needed to deal with it as it is under his jurisdiction not theirs.

Drake

02-06-2018 02:46 PM

Steel

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

Is this brother using the Bible to cover a multitude of sins, and Jesus to enable them?

Nope... But it sure seems by the gross dishonesty in your speaking regarding your veiled suggestion of what I'm saying that you have no problem holding to and expressing your old fallen man.

02-06-2018 02:08 PM

Nell

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

02-06-2018 01:21 PM

Koinonia

Re: Whistleblower

Drake, you attack Ohio over a non-issue, yet will not say if Witness Lee was wrong for opposing Philip Lee's excommunication. It is the same way you criticize John Ingalls for not calling the police on Philip Lee--when it was Witness Lee, the minister of the age, who installed his son in the first place, led the cover-up of his sexual indiscretion and abuse over a 10-year period, kept him on the board of directors of LSM, the "work of ministry," and then quarantined Ingalls for not going along with it.

I think your priorities are out of order.

02-06-2018 01:12 PM

Ohio

Re: Whistleblower

02-06-2018 12:50 PM

Drake

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

Outstanding response bro Untohim.

So that's where rape entered this thread ; our dear brother Drake.

I feel for our brother. He's trying to defend the indefensible.

02-06-2018 12:45 PM

Ohio

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

So that's where rape entered this thread ; our dear brother Drake.

Here is my quote from 7 years ago on another thread ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

I have heard others express this line of reasoning. Sure PL increased revenues at LSM, but why would WL place PL in charge and then do nothing to prevent his son from potentially destroying his entire ministry and reputation. Placing PL as the "office" contradicted thousands of WL's own teachings.

PL's vices were well known in to those related to LSM. If WL just wanted his sons to be successful via some business venture, then why not just funnel money to him? Only the accountants would then know, rather than risking scandals regarding rape and immorality.

awareness, note what I actually said, "risking scandals regarding rape and immorality." Is that not what has happened? How many devoted brothers and sisters have left the LC's over the past 30 years due to "scandals regarding rape and immorality" at LSM? Actually I never accused Philip of rape. I wasn't in the room. But ... does not workplace sexual abuse of volunteer sister-help become a "scandal of rape" when the news hits the streets? Rumors always become bigger that life. Coverups only make it even worse.

My point then and now is the same: Why didn't Witness Lee, who knew the degenerate character of his son, place him in charge at LSM over all the elders and workers? Why did he then cover up for Philip, rather than act as a man of God, act with decency, act according to the scriptures, and act according to the law?

02-06-2018 12:34 PM

Drake

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

I wasn't there. I have to go by the accounts of witnesses who were there.

We had one sister from Ohio who claimed to be groped by PL. Some would say that was an attempted rape. Wouldn't that have created a scandal?

Ohio,

Do you believe that PL attempted rape?

Drake

02-06-2018 11:42 AM

awareness

Re: Whistleblower

Outstanding response bro Untohim.

So that's where rape entered this thread ; our dear brother Drake.

I feel for our brother. He's trying to defend the indefensible.

02-06-2018 10:34 AM

UntoHim

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

I've been reviewing this thread, and I'm so far left confused. Somebody help me please.
Have we determined beyond a shadow of doubt that rape was committed?

I don't think anyone is trying to determine that rape was committed. That's a red herring brought forth from our friend Drake. He produced a quote from Ohio from years and years ago on another thread. NOT RELEVANT TO OUR DISCUSSIONS HERE.

What is not in dispute is the fact that Phillip Lee was a sexual predator of the worse kind - one that was placed in a "position of trust". And the person who put Phillip in this person of trust position was none other than his father, Witness Lee. It is a documented fact that Witness Lee was made fully aware of Phillip's deviant behavior going back at least to the mid-70s. Can there be any doubt that it goes back further in time?

There is absolutely no excuse for Witness Lee allowing his son to be placed in a position of trust with women/sisters. The entire ministry of Lee and even the entire Local Church movement was polluted and defiled by these two men - Phillip as the predator and Witness as the enabler. Any blessing that was experienced in the Local Church was in despite of these two men, and not because of them. And we don't have to wait to "let the Lord judge"....The Lord has already judged sin and death. He has already condemned sin in the flesh. Yes, "we will all appear before the judgement seat" at some point in the future. But the church is NOW. The genuine New Testament ministry is NOW. Women and children should be honored and protected NOW...in this life - we don't have to worry about the life to come....God himself will see to it that women and children are honored and protected in his Kingdom.

The church is watching. The world is watching. The public is watching. Satan and his fallen angels are watching. God is watching too. Local Churchers talk a lot about "bringing the Lord back". What will he come back to?

Quote from John Ingalls in Speaking the Truth in Love:
"and all of this happened in what we call 'The Lord's Recovery'.".

Yes, brother John, all this happened in what we call The Lord's Recovery. And what is worse, I greatly fear, is that it is still happening to this very day. May God have mercy on us, his people.

02-06-2018 10:29 AM

awareness

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

I pray this doesn't mean child molestation though I fear it does.
Full post here:
http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...2&postcount=38

Well I know if a very burning brother, who looked to be very given to the church, that was molesting his own daughters. But he wasn't in leadership, and it wasn't found out until the girls grew up and left the LC. I liked the brother. You never know someone.

02-06-2018 08:50 AM

Nell

Re: Whistleblower

I pray this doesn't mean child molestation though I fear it does.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeverfreefromLC

...
I will make it clear that nobody within the LC had molested me personally but I do know some who were by LC members. Kids are considered lower on the totem pole than women there.
...
I wish you all the best in your journey!

Full post here:
http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...2&postcount=38

Nell

02-06-2018 08:49 AM

Ohio

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steel

Should believers in these local churches not have been aware of this way of the fallen old man and been prepared for it by seeking the Lord regarding it?
Scripture tells us to always be watchful...

Brother Steel, thanks for responding. So far we are in agreement with what you have written, so I will limit responses to your questions.

Witness Lee was presented to the LC members as a consummate "Minister of the Age." For years the workers and elders protected him and his sons' unrighteous activities. Any member who voiced concerns was marginalized, and later expelled. In many cases, their reputations were smeared before the church. Are not church leaders held to higher standards? Do they not have the responsibility to protect the church of God? Do not church leaders have the responsibility to vet out contrived rumors received from headquarters before publishing them as "truth?"

Quote:

I know some things about various things that have been experienced by believers who fellowship in local churches. But I wasn't a witness to what things took place in the '70s-'90s... As God did not place me in the LSM associated local church until 2003.

What then are you suggesting ... That I look back... And in doing so ignore looking forward?
Maybe God allows what He allows for the purpose of exposing what/who we are looking at.

Yes, God does allow many things to be exposed in the Recovery. He has also used this forum to shine a spotlight on LSM rulers' abuses. In my case, for 30+ years I did "look forward" just as you suggested, ignoring all the "negative opposition" I had heard. But LC leaders are skillful in exploiting that virtue in you, and me, and others. Paul, however, challenged us to "prove all things" and hang on to the good, (Rom 12.2, I Thess 5.21) and not to trust men blindly.

Quote:

And perhaps therein was your error, and the error of many others who suffered, and continue to suffer from the things that took place. Scripture tells us that only God is good.

So why think that humanity is good. We are called to love our neighbors... Not trust them. We are called to fellowship with our brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus... Not believe in them.

Great points, brother. You obviously have some words of wisdom which I did not possess in those days. In fact, no one in the LC's spoke like that!

I have often said that perhaps my biggest failure was "trusting the brothers too much." Hebrews 13.17 was often used in those early days, "Obey the ones leading you and submit to them, for they watch over your souls as those who will give an account."

Unfortunately, many LC elders only believe they need to "give an account" to LSM. Be careful how you trust the brothers in Austin!

Quote:

I do have this Spirit of reality and believe these truths.

Quote:

Here may I protest, being an older brother in the Lord, and speaking from the wisdom of scriptures? Paul told Timothy that, "All scripture is God-breathed and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." The scripture does not just instruct us to "seek His face, behold His glory, and dwell in His house," it also provides much admonition. (I Cor 10.11)

For example, Acts 20.30 warns us of those like Witness Lee who "speak perverted things and draw the disciples after them." Perhaps you ignored that warning I spoke in a previous post. 3 John 9 warned us of those like Diotrephes who "loved to be first among the brothers."

If I have seen many children of God over the years damaged by this ministry, should I not warn others to be careful? And once you know better, are you not also responsible?

02-06-2018 08:28 AM

awareness

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steel

...Well... I'd say that the well-being of the body of Christ should be the most important concern for all born again believer's in Christ Jesus.
Christ... Christ... And more Christ... This is the only true way to "...be well informed..." and avoid being "...hurt or stumbled...".

Is this brother using the Bible to cover a multitude of sins, and Jesus to enable them?

02-06-2018 08:11 AM

Steel

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

As far as repentance being between them and the Lord, let's review the scripture ... Witness Lee knew BenM need to repent. Benson, Ray, DonR, DonL and Joe Davis knew it. Ray Graver knew it.

We can all absolutely know when repentance is needed...

But repentance is unto the Lord first... Not man first.

Unbelievers ask forgiveness every day from those around them. And though there may be some natural human value in doing so, there is not divine value.

And, according to scripture, what every born again eternally saved believer in Christ Jesus should be seeking is that which has divine value.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

The standard for elders are higher.

The requirement for elders is higher... The standard for all believers is Christ Jesus.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

Further, if Witness Lee had followed the scripture and set the standard with his own son and later with BenM, we might not be dealing with this scourge today. Witness Lee clearly feared his own son more than he feared the Lord.

This is an assumption on your part.

And we should not be so vain as to think we have the ground to make assumptions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

1 Timothy 5:19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses. (Joe Davis, Don Rutledge, Benson Phillips and Don Looper)... 20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear... 21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

Absolutely clear.

And if some don't hold to what Paul instructed Timothy to hold to and set a pattern for other believers with... What should we do?

What does scripture tells us is the proper response to these brothers and sisters?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

So elders are held to a higher standard.

Again...

Elders are held to a higher requirement...

The standard for all believers in Christ is... Christ.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

Please provide us with an example of *even one* instance of the Local Church excommunicating a sinning brother for *anything* much less sexual abuse of the sisters in the Local Church.

I can't... As I don't know of any.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

Don Rutledge's post:... "Yes the worldly wisdom from Witness Lee and the unfaithfulness of the five brothers led to more tragedy. All five have an account to give at the judgment seat.

Hope

In Christ Jesus there is hope for us all."

Yep...

"In Christ Jesus there is hope for us all."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

I do have an example of a woman who was excommunicated publicly in the 1970's in The Church In Houston whose sin was fornication as a way of life. I was there in the room. It was a definite warning and there was fear among all who were there that night. I will never forget it. And, amazingly, the Elder who spoke in that meeting, excommunicating her, was BenM. Her sin was not between herself and the Lord. It was a church matter.

The church is the Lord's possession.

And the fact that it seems that you don't understand this very basic reality can only lead you to speak in error regarding the things of the church as they relate to the Lord.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

1 Corinthians 6:19
What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

This...

"...and ye are not your own?"

Is a reality you seem to have little understanding of.

02-06-2018 07:53 AM

ZNPaaneah

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steel

My brother Ohio...
I know some things about various things that have been experienced by believers who fellowship in local churches.

Very funny, reminds me of me. Thanks.

02-06-2018 07:48 AM

Steel

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Brother Steel,

You have jumped into a hornet's nest of controversy here. Probably you had no idea.

My brother Ohio...

I "...jump into..." hornets nests almost every day as I participate in online forum discussions... And I've been doing so for some almost twenty years.

I mourn this... But I'm not fearful of it... As He who is in me is greater than he who is in any hornet's nest.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Let me say in passing, that I have little objection to how any of the elders in any of the local churches decide to love and serve the Lord. That's really none of my business.

Well... I'd say that the well-being of the body of Christ should be the most important concern for all born again believer's in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 6:10... "So then, as we have the opportunity, let us do what is good toward all, but especially toward those of the household of the faith."

And seeing that scripture tells us that God is after one thing... The built up church, we should most of all care for His body of believers, as this is to...

Psalms 100:2... "Serve Jehovah with rejoicing; Come before His presence with joyful singing."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

But should I not be a little honest with others like you about how LSM sent their lawless agents throughout Midwest area local churches a decade ago and divided up every one of them?

This is the way of the fallen old man... Divide and conquer.

Those who propagated the British Empire exemplified this way.

The folly Roman Catholic religious institution exemplifies this way.

Folly Christianity exemplifies this way.

Should believers in these local churches not have been aware of this way of the fallen old man and been prepared for it by seeking the Lord regarding it?

Scripture tells us to always be watchful...

Ephesians 6:18... "By means of all prayer and petition, praying at bevery time in spirit and watching unto this in all perseverance and petition concerning all the saints,..."

Colossians 4:2... "Persevere in prayer, watching in it with thanksgiving,..."

And to have the following mindset...

Psalms 16... "Preserve me, O God, for I take refuge in You... I say to Jehovah, You are my Lord; No good have I beyond You;... As for the saints who are on the earth, they are the excellent; All my delight is in them... The sorrows of them who bartered for some other god will be multiplied; Their drink offerings of blood I will not offer, Nor will I take up their names upon my lips... Jehovah is the portion of my inheritance and of my cup; You maintain my lot... The measuring lines have fallen on pleasant places for me; Indeed the inheritance is beautiful to me... I will bless Jehovah, who counsels me; Indeed in the nights my inward parts instruct me... I have set Jehovah before me continually; Because He is at my right hand, I shall not be shaken... Therefore my heart rejoices and my glory exults; Even my flesh dwells securely... For You will not abandon my soul to Sheol, Nor let Your Holy One see the pit... You will make known to me the path of life; In Your presence is fullness of joy; At Your right hand there are pleasures forever."

And...

1 Peter 3:14-15... "But even if you suffer because of righteousness, you are blessed. And do not be afraid with fear from them, nor be troubled,... But sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, being always ready for a defense to everyone who asks of you an account concerning the hope which is in you,..."

A believer can choose to look at humanity...

Or to look only at Christ Jesus.

Maybe God allows what He allows for the purpose of exposing what/who we are looking at.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Perhaps you know nothing of these unrighteous and divisive activities. Perhaps you were not in the least bit involved. Neither did you witness all the other corruption I and others lived thru back in the 70's, 80's, and 90's.

I know some things about various things that have been experienced by believers who fellowship in local churches.

But I wasn't a witness to what things took place in the '70s-'90s... As God did not place me in the LSM associated local church until 2003.

What then are you suggesting...

That I look back... And in doing so ignore looking forward?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Personally I believed all the stories WL and LSM presented to us, believing that "ambitious men" were out to destroy LSM, and never was able to learn both sides of the story.

And perhaps therein was your error, and the error of many others who suffered, and continue to suffer from the things that took place.

Scriture tells us that only God is good.

So why think that humanity is good.

I don't.

We are called to love our neighbors... Not trust them.

We are called to fellowship with our brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus... Not believe in them.

Hebrews 12:1-2... "Therefore let us also, having so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, put away every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us and run with endurance the race which is set before us,... Looking away unto Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down on the right hand of the throne of God."

"...Looking away unto Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith..."

That's it.

Nothing else matters.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

I and many others were greatly deceived,..."

John 16:13... "But when He, the Spirit of reality, comes, He will guide you into all the reality; for He will not speak from Himself, but what He hears He will speak; and He will declare to you the things that are coming."

Do you have this Spirit of reality?

If you are a born again eternally saved believer in Christ Jesus... You most certainly do.

And if you do... Then you could have been guided into all reality regarding any situation you encountered.

And the same is true of other born again believers.

Do you not believe this truth that scripture reveals?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

...and that's why we are on this forum, so that ones like you can make informed decisions about the ministry you are embracing, and more children of God will not be hurt or stumbled.

My brother...

According to scripture...

The best things any brother or sister in Christ can do for another brother or sister in Christ... Is to turn to the Lord in their regenerated Spirit and take Christ as their center/source of their life, living, and being.

I don't need you to give me the knowledge you believe you have acquired from past experiences...

I need you to give me the Christ you have gained from past experiences of your abiding and expressing Him.

2 Corinthians 3:18... "But we all with unveiled face, beholding and reflecting like a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord Spirit."

Psalms 27:4... "One thing I have asked from Jehovah; That do I seek: To dwell in the house of Jehovah All the days of my life, To behold the beauty of Jehovah, And to inquire in His temple."

Christ... Christ... And more Christ... This is the only true way to "...be well informed..." and avoid being "...hurt or stumbled...".

02-06-2018 07:19 AM

ZNPaaneah

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

Have we determined beyond a shadow of doubt that rape was committed?

Because of his position in LSM I think it is very reasonable to say the charge would have been sexual assault. There is a fine line between the two. Both are felonies.

02-06-2018 07:08 AM

awareness

Re: Whistleblower

I've been reviewing this thread, and I'm so far left confused. Somebody help me please.

Have we determined beyond a shadow of doubt that rape was committed?

In the c. in Ft. Lauderdale there was a brother I knew but wasn't close to. I didn't get to know him until after leaving the LC.

Turns out he was caught several times in the parking lot doing the nasty with the young daughters of the saints. The girls were underage, but were active participants in the deed. He was dealt with in each case, it was statutory rape, but the law was never called. Why? Because it would have brought public scandal and shame to the church ... and to the Lord.

This matter of public scandal is what motivates the cover up. We see it today with e RCC, who is presently sitting on evidence of sexual crimes upon young boys by declaring the sovereignty of the state of the Vatican. But it happens in churches all across this land, of the Protestant sort too, not just in the local churches.

And no one wants to shame the church. For obvious reasons. No one wants to shame the Lord.

Churches, of course, are full of sinners, so sins are going to happen. And when they happen the reflex of the loyal members is going to be to cover it up ... especially if it was a crime. And who pays the price? The victim.

Have we determined beyond a shadow of doubt that Philip Lee committed rape? Or that other like crimes were covered up?

Have I missed something? I haven't seen that yet.

02-06-2018 06:44 AM

Nell

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steel

...But their repentance is between them and the Lord.

As far as repentance being between them and the Lord, let's review the scripture ... Witness Lee knew BenM need to repent. Benson, Ray, DonR, DonL and Joe Davis knew it. Ray Graver knew it. The standard for elders are higher. Further, if Witness Lee had followed the scripture and set the standard with his own son and later with BenM, we might not be dealing with this scourge today. Witness Lee clearly feared his own son more than he feared the Lord.

1 Timothy 5:19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses. (Joe Davis, Don Rutledge, Benson Phillips and Don Looper)
20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.
21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

So elders are held to a higher standard. Please provide us with an example of *even one* instance of the Local Church excommunicating a sinning brother for *anything* much less sexual abuse of the sisters in the Local Church.

Don Rutledge's post:

Hope: #103
Regarding Ben McPhersons immorality, this is the report from a first hand witness: Ray Graver was the first to know. He contacted Benson Phillips who called for an urgent gathering at his home with Ray, Joe Davis of Houston, Don Looper of Austin and Don Rutledge of Dallas. This occurred the morning after Ben was found out. All the brothers there were furious. Don Rutledge angrily declared that they had all been betrayed. All agreed that Ben should be publicly excommunicated and publicly rebuked that all may fear. All agreed that the Lord could not bless the church in Irving due to Ben’s sin. Ben had confessed to Ray that this sin was not a one time thing but had been going on for some time including when he was in Arlington. Ben also admitted that he knew the Church in Arlington had lagged the other Dallas area churches in blessing due to his sin. At that time, none of these brothers would sympathize with any immorality and especially from an elder or co-worker.

While they were meeting, Witness Lee returned Bensons urgent message. After about a 30 minute conversation, Benson returned to the room where the brothers were waiting, still in a state of shock and outrage. Witness Lee urged them to consider Bens family and the harm to them if he was publicly exposed. He urged them not to publicly excommunicate him but simply ask him to move away. That is what Ray and Benson decided to do. The other three had big reservations but deferred to the Irving brothers to take care of the matter.

But then the lying started. Many people began to call wanting to know what happened to Ben. Since Witness Lee, Benson and Ray had decided to keep the real situation under wraps, what where these brothers to say. Looper and Rutledge would say that something must have happened in Irving and they did not know for sure – A LIE. Benson and Ray told various stories, Ben wanted to get away etc and not to worry since he was in fellowship.

Witness Lee urged Benson and Ray to spend time with Ben and seek to recover him, but they were too disgusted to seek to contact him.

Yes the worldly wisdom from Witness Lee and the unfaithfulness of the five brothers led to more tragedy. All five have an account to give at the judgment seat.

Hope

In Christ Jesus there is hope for us all.

I do have an example of a woman who was excommunicated publicly in the 1970's in The Church In Houston whose sin was fornication as a way of life. I was there in the room. It was a definite warning and there was fear among all who were there that night. I will never forget it. And, amazingly, the Elder who spoke in that meeting, excommunicating her, was BenM. Her sin was not between herself and the Lord. It was a church matter.

1 Corinthians 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

1 Corinthians 6:19
What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

Nell

02-05-2018 05:36 PM

Ohio

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steel

Actually...

The only determination that you could gain regarding my sense of the matter that I have developed over time would either be that given to you by the Lord... Or that contrived by you in and out of your natural man.

And if you were clear about scripture, you would be clear about that.

Hope that helps.

Brother Steel,

You have jumped into a hornet's nest of controversy here. Probably you had no idea.

Let me say in passing, that I have little objection to how any of the elders in any of the local churches decide to love and serve the Lord. That's really none of my business. But should I not be a little honest with others like you about how LSM sent their lawless agents throughout Midwest area local churches a decade ago and divided up every one of them?

Perhaps you know nothing of these unrighteous and divisive activities. Perhaps you were not in the least bit involved. Neither did you witness all the other corruption I and others lived thru back in the 70's, 80's, and 90's. Personally I believed all the stories WL and LSM presented to us, believing that "ambitious men" were out to destroy LSM, and never was able to learn both sides of the story. I and many others were greatly deceived, and that's why we are on this forum, so that ones like you can make informed decisions about the ministry you are embracing, and more children of God will not be hurt or stumbled.

02-05-2018 12:30 PM

Steel

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

Cool? Are you serious? What Philip Lee did, what BenM did, what the Local Church men are continuing to this day is not "cool". There is nothing about this topic that is "cool".

What you've done in your speaking above, Nell... Is try to present a dishonest straw man... Which is quite poor conduct for a believer in Christ Jesus.

I said nor suggested that I was cool with anything regarding Philip Lee or BenM, or even what the Local Church is continuing to this day.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

I find this attitude of yours totally disgusting and repulsive.

And I should care what a person whose own words expose as being dishonest thinks of me.

Nell... I'll tell you what the Lord finds totally disgusting and repulsive... Dishonesty.

And if you were clear on what scripture reveals you'd know this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

These men made no mistakes. They abused these sisters wilfully. Where is their repentance?

It certainly seems they are guilty as charged.

But their repentance is between them and the Lord.

According to scripture... Our need is to forgive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

Where is their restitution for the horrible damage they have done to the Body of Christ, to the church, and to these women?

Scripture tells us that God's wheels of justice grind slowly, but finely.

I trust the Lord to gain what He needs to gain.

You should too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

These men did not "stumble." They knew what they were doing and that is hideous sin.

Based on what I've read, I would think they did.

But if they were born again, their actions were indicative of falling/stumbling back into sin.

And if they were not saved... Their actions were simply those of a unbelievers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

The Lord knows? I know, too. All you have to do is read the Bible.

I do read scripture... And I certainly know that the Lord knows... When I'm abiding in my spirit, where the Lord dwells one with me, and me one with the Lord.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

These sisters who were abused at the hands of Local Church men were not put there for an object lesson for sexual predators in the Local Church to "rebound from a 'stumble' or prevent a stumble'".

Absolutely.

But tell me... How many "Local Church men" are there in the world... And how many of these have committed this abuse?

I'm asking because you seem to have no problem casting aspersions across a very wide body of believers... In a very general way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

Do you think these sisters think there was anything COOL about what they experienced?

Not at all.

Which is why I never said nor suggested they would be... Or I was.

But again... I understand why you seem intent on presenting a dishonest straw man.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

Did you read their testimonies?

What was presented on this thread, yes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

Your agreement with Drake is the problem.

Not for me before the Lord.

And if it is a problem for you... Then you should take it before the Lord.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

This is how the cancer in the Local Church perpetuates itself.

Actually... No.

The cancer that is within the entire body is exactly that which has corrupted it for two thousand years...

And this corruption is exposed in your own dishonest speaking, as exposed in what I've quoted in this comment...

Speaking that is not of Christ.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

Do you think the Bible is "cool"? Maybe you should put more faith in the Bible than in Drake.

I know scripture is very cool.

And the faith that I have in scripture is the very same faith that the Lord has... And actually is... Just as scripture tells us.

And again, if you were clear on what scripture reveals you'd know this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

Here's what the Bible says...

Matthew 6:23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

This is certainly what scripture tells us...

And in your above dishonesty is exposed the evil/darkness that is being referenced.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

Your and Drake's comments are full of great darkness. God have mercy on your souls... Nell

Being born again and therefore eternally saved... God has most certainly had mercy on my soul... And if Drake can say the same... Hallelujah!

As for my comment being full of darkness (I can't speak for Drake)...

Having already exposed yourself as someone who doesn't seem to know the difference between honesty and dishonesty... At this point, your opinion has no value before the Lord.

02-05-2018 12:04 PM

Steel

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Questions. Have you ever read the accounts of the victims of LSM's abuses?

Yes... On a few occasions over many years.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Or do you just believe that LSM like most ministries is good and wholesome?

If by "ministries" you are referring to the content of the ink published on the paper... In my experience what I've read from the ministry has been good.

If by "ministries" you're referring to the people associated with the content of the ink that is published on the paper, then no, as scripture is clear... Only God is good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

This would greatly determine the kind of "sense" you have developed over time.

02-05-2018 11:28 AM

Ohio

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steel

"As for me, I do not deny that there were many mistakes, misdeeds, faults, sins, etc. that have happened in the Lords Recovery. However, all the failures and shortcomings, were a test to the vision the Lord gave me. I do not follow a man, I follow the anointing. Perhaps, by sharing my experience I may supply just one little one, former or current member, to rebound from a stumble or prevent a stumble. I don’t know, the Lord knows." — Drake

Cool... I have the same sense.

Hi Steel, welcome to the forum!

Questions. Have you ever read the accounts of the victims of LSM's abuses?

Or do you just believe that LSM like most ministries is good and wholesome?

This would greatly determine the kind of "sense" you have developed over time.

02-05-2018 10:48 AM

Nell

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steel

Cool? Are you serious? What Philip Lee did, what BenM did, what the Local Church men are continuing to this day is not "cool". There is nothing about this topic that is "cool". I find this attitude of yours totally disgusting and repulsive. These men made no mistakes. They abused these sisters wilfully. Where is their repentance? Where is their restitution for the horrible damage they have done to the Body of Christ, to the church, and to these women? These men did not "stumble." They knew what they were doing and that is hideous sin.

The Lord knows? I know, too. All you have to do is read the Bible.

These sisters who were abused at the hands of Local Church men were not put there for an object lesson for sexual predators in the Local Church to "rebound from a 'stumble' or prevent a stumble'". Do you think these sisters think there was anything COOL about what they experienced? Did you read their testimonies?

Your agreement with Drake is the problem. This is how the cancer in the Local Church perpetuates itself.

Do you think the Bible is "cool"? Maybe you should put more faith in the Bible than in Drake. Here's what the Bible says:

Matthew 6:23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

Your and Drake's comments are full of great darkness. God have mercy on your souls.

Nell

02-05-2018 09:55 AM

Steel

Re: Whistleblower

02-05-2018 07:21 AM

Nell

Re: Whistleblower

More...

Complete post here:
http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...6&postcount=43

[QUOTE=BlueOrchid;69295]
Hi NeverfreefromLC,
{Virtual hug <3}
I'm so sorry you went through that.

Yes I agree. I went through a similar experience and the guilt and shame was the most intense feeling and such a depressing burden. For me it was a member of the LC as well. I mentally checked out. It didn't make sense to see this person worshipping at the table meeting, while my young young self was thinking how does he get away with it while I have to keep it a secret and try to be normal? It was exhausting to keep that secret.

I didn't feel good enough for a brother in the church life. I now know that it wasn't my shame or guilt, it was the accuser. and I know that satan tries to get a foot hold into our lives from trauma we experience. It's so deeply rooted in us at a young age, but lies are nothing compared to the truth!

I keep hearing stories of sexual abuse covered up in the church... it's always going to be a thing because satan wants to steal kill and destroy. I just wish there was more love and care for those who had been through things. But they won't in an environment where the truth of many other issues has been stifled for decades. I could never understand it, but from all the testimonies on this forum, so many things make sense!
...

Nell

02-05-2018 06:59 AM

Drake

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

"Over a decade?" ... Hmmm ... but Drake you've only been here a year ... unless of course you are the "reincarnation" of another famous LSMer on this forum.

"A test to your vision?" ... Hmmm ... but Drake why don't you allow any other believers in the body of Christ the same liberties? Why is only your "Recovery" permitted to overlook mistakes, misdeeds, faults, sins, crimes, and unrighteousness? All in the name of some "vision."

But Ohio.... I am not sure what you mean entirely. No man is without fault save One. And I do not advocate overlooking a failure because from them we may learn and be tested. I said citing the facts is one thing but reviling accusations are quite another. I said you may have a legitimate objection but then in adding in judgment you yourself go too far resulting in reviling accusations. That is not overlooking. With you this has been going on for a decade, based on your join date.

Drake

02-05-2018 05:54 AM

Ohio

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Finally, you might think.. what about the failings, the mistakes, the misdeeds, the bad judgments of Brother Lee, his sons, the coworkers, the elders, etc. ....shouldn’t we broadcast and shout them from the rooftops? You’ve done that for over a decade and if you have done that under the direct guidance of the Holy Spirit then you will receive a great reward according to your works. Yet, if your many words and works are not under the direct leading of the Holy Spirit, you will not receive a reward, rather the One Who judges righteously will settle matter in that day. It is a fact, not a threat, and when brought into our understanding the BEMA of Christ will keep us from going too far.

As for me, I do not deny that there were many mistakes, misdeeds, faults, sins, etc. that have happened in the Lords Recovery. However, all the failures and shortcomings, were a test to the vision the Lord gave me. I do not follow a man, I follow the anointing. Perhaps, by sharing my experience I may supply just one little one, former or current member, to rebound from a stumble or prevent a stumble. I don’t know, the Lord knows.

Drake

"Over a decade?" ... Hmmm ... but Drake you've only been here a year ... unless of course you are the "reincarnation" of another famous LSMer on this forum.

02-04-2018 09:44 AM

Drake

Re: Whistleblower

-1

Ohio>”So let me get this straight. According to your "standards," when anyone addresses past criminal or salacious activities at LSM, they will be judged by the Lord, but employees of LSM will always get a free pass for their "mistakes" since they are on the "proper graound."

Ohio, nothing I said remotely suggests that so you did not get that straight.

However, it is one thing to cite the facts of a situation and quite another to render judgment in that citation. More often than not, your citation ibecomes a reviling accusation against members of the local churches, elders, coworkers, and God’s servants. Will your reviling accusation bring the Lord’s smile and “Well done good and faithful servant”? I don’t think so. Yet, it is not up to me so time will tell.

Drake

02-04-2018 09:25 AM

Ohio

Re: Whistleblower

So much drama, Drake. You remind me of Nancy Pelosi screaming "Armageddon!" every time the Republicans make news.

Drake, you may claim that you "do not follow a man, I follow the anointing," yet the "kingdom of God is righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit," and your "righteousness must surpass the hypocritical scribes and Pharisees," or I doubt if your anointing is the anointing of the Holy Spirit.

It's kind of humorous coming from an LSMer that "my critique casts off all restraint." WL and the Blendeds have made it their calling to continually condemn the entire body of Christ. They have an entire publication A&C that critiques all things Christian. You may be disturbed by my posts here, but let me guarantee you that they are merely a drop in the bucket of your endless ministry of condemnation on all of Christianity. It is truly amazing that you have mistaken the haughty spirit and a mocking spirit in your trainings for the anointing.

What you call "the failings, the mistakes, the misdeeds, the bad judgments of Brother Lee, his sons, the coworkers, the elders, etc." I would call a dastardly plot to smear, discredit, slander, and destroy numerous men of God whose only "crimes" were to protect the innocent children of God and speak their conscience on behalf of righteousness. Actually I would say that you are being quite deceptive here by characterizing these actions as mere "failings, mistakes, misdeeds, and bad judgments." And you have been doing this for 30 years, all the while condemning others for bringing up the subject.

So let me get this straight. According to your "standards," when anyone addresses past criminal or salacious activities at LSM, they will be judged by the Lord, but employees of LSM will always get a free pass for their "mistakes" since they are on the "proper graound."

Oh those poor writers of the Bible! How dare they have recorded all of those "failings, mistakes, misdeeds, and bad judgments" of the Patriarchs, Judges, Kings, Prophets, Apostles, etc.

02-04-2018 07:49 AM

Drake

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Brother Drake, we are not playing verse wars here or games with scripture.
People got hurt! The children of God were stumbled by a ministry!
Should you not rather take sides with the stumbled "least of My brothers," than take sides with ministry officials who may have millstones around their necks?
Have not the lessons of the Bible and history taught you anything?

Brother Ohio,

These are reasonable and worthy questions. Of course, people got hurt. Many were stumbled. Some in this forum. History is a valuable teacher. I am in tune. I get it.

However, there are significant collateral issues that you don’t see that I do. Not because I’m smarter and you’re dumber. I don’t believe that at all. Rather, it is vantage point. Some examples are:

1) You (the collective you), may have a legitimate objection but then you go too far. You cast off all restraint in your critique. Your passion runs amok. You feed on it and work into a frenzy. Soon the legitimate concern and objection has turned into slander of brothers and sisters without regard for their well being some potentially in danger of losing freedom or their very lives. A haughty spirit, a mocking spirit, dominates the discussions in tone and tenor. You have gone too far.

2) In that environment you (the collective you again) attack every thought that disagrees or presents a different point of view. There is no middle ground with you. Either I agree it is “RAPE” else I am defending the sleazy. Any objections on most topics will predictably and invariably lead to PL. How dare I believe the truth of the minister of the age, how ridiculous that I follow God’s anointing... why, don’t I understand that PL did those things right there in the ministry office? “Toss out the bath water, toss out the baby, and now toss out the bath tub, the bottles, and the cradle!” You have gone too far.

3) Yet, there is more runway.... you do not stop with attacking dissent you now attack the dissenter. It goes something like this: Drake is a dissenter, cast the die, he knows better so he must be purposely deceiving us. Drake willingly defends every evil we cite, every wrongdoing, every mistake. How dare he stumble little ones. We are crusaders for truth and Drake is trying to cover it up. Either that or he is delusional. We have our theories too, we have worked through them a thousand times, we know how things really are, so who does Evangelical think he is showing us alternative views with all those quotes from theologians and Christian ministers? He too, is up to no good. They are LSM plants or else they are violating LSM rules. If so, they are afraid of getting caught by LSM because they would be punished. That’s why they won’t tell us where they live. Again, you go too far but we know what we signed up for in coming to this forum so all is forgiven without solicitation.

4) Which brings us to the described evil of all evils in this forum. LSM. I have recently presented the New Testament scriptural basis for the work of ministry in another thread. I have also stated that the Living Stream Ministry in its function and execution fulfills that role for the local churches on the earth today. I understand you don’t see it that way. Yet, I have personally benefitted from it in that way and so have tens of thousands of brothers and sisters in the local churches. My church life experience is not dependent on the misdeeds of PL. I am not distraught over the failed motor home business. I am delighted that there are serving ones on the earth today who give their lives to put words of life into my hands, who are willing to get on a plane and spend a weekend, a week, a month, or a year, to fellowship our wonderful Christ, who carry on a ministry that will build up the Body of Christ and may contribute to bringing the Lord back in our lifetime. If this ministry does not inspire you that way then find one that does and let your hearts to be big enough to allow the brothers and sisters in the local churches to pursue the Spirit’s leading in their lives. Your criticisms, though perhaps sometimes valid, go too far. If there is a chance of stumbling little ones it rests on your shoulders for those little ones still in the Lords Recovery and those who may be seeking a path to return.

Finally, you might think.. what about the failings, the mistakes, the misdeeds, the bad judgments of Brother Lee, his sons, the coworkers, the elders, etc. ....shouldn’t we broadcast and shout them from the rooftops? You’ve done that for over a decade and if you have done that under the direct guidance of the Holy Spirit then you will receive a great reward according to your works. Yet, if your many words and works are not under the direct leading of the Holy Spirit, you will not receive a reward, rather the One Who judges righteously will settle matter in that day. It is a fact, not a threat, and when brought into our understanding the BEMA of Christ will keep us from going too far.

As for me, I do not deny that there were many mistakes, misdeeds, faults, sins, etc. that have happened in the Lords Recovery. However, all the failures and shortcomings, were a test to the vision the Lord gave me. I do not follow a man, I follow the anointing. Perhaps, by sharing my experience I may supply just one little one, former or current member, to rebound from a stumble or prevent a stumble. I don’t know, the Lord knows.

Drake

02-03-2018 06:52 PM

Ohio

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

HERn, If challenging the allegation of rape when there was none straining at a gnat then guilty as charged. I have made my view clear on what I think of PL and his actions. Do not pretend otherwise. But save the rape charge where it applies. And you should love everything the Lord Jesus says not just selections that are convenient in the moment.

Brother Drake, we are not playing verse wars here or games with scripture.

People got hurt! The children of God were stumbled by a ministry!

Should you not rather take sides with the stumbled "least of My brothers," than take sides with ministry officials who may have millstones around their necks?

Have not the lessons of the Bible and history taught you anything?

02-03-2018 06:39 PM

HERn

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

HERn, ...And you should love everything the Lord Jesus says not just selections that are convenient in the moment.

Very good advice brother Drake. I shall ask the Lord for grace to do just that.

Best,
HERn

02-03-2018 05:17 PM

Ohio

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

If challenging the allegation of rape when there was none straining at a gnat then guilty as charged.

Drake please read this excerpt below again from Ingalls STTIL. We just don't know all the details. I wouldn't be so sure that any of the sisters did not feel they were "raped."

Quote:

In the morning of December 19, just before Ken and I were to leave for Texas that afternoon, the sister from the LSM office who had spoken to me on September 30th (see page 10) called and asked to speak to Godfred and me. We met with her and were utterly amazed at what we heard. She began to relate to us in detail some of the things she suffered while in the service of the LSM office. She wanted us to realize how grave the problem was. We were revulsed to the depths of our being, and when the conversation ended and we parted, we so full of abhorrent feelings that we were literally in a daze. Godfred drove me to the airport to meet Ken. We were in a state of shock and utter disgust. All this had taken place in what we called the Lord’s recovery!

Sounds to me like the sisters at LSM were subjected to a little more than just a few of Philip's infamous vulgar tirades.

02-03-2018 05:08 PM

Ohio

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Here's my post above from close to 7 years ago. (I'm really amazed that Drake can use the search engine so well, but not the quote button.)

That old post brings up something that has bothered me for years. Like I bolded above, for those who lived thru the LC days of the "New Way," why would WL place PL in charge and then do nothing to prevent his son from potentially destroying his entire ministry and reputation. Placing PL as "The Office" contradicted thousands of WL's own teachings.

This move was hundreds of times worse than mere nepotism, a failed Motorhome business, or milking the saints of God during every training. WL placed a known reprobate in charge of his life's work, and forced the LC's and the workers to submit to him. Why would he do such a thing? Did he not lord it over as the Gentiles do? Why take such a risk? What did he have to gain? Is this just a fallen part of Chinese culture? Establish the Lee dynasty?

02-03-2018 03:50 PM

Drake

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Hey Drake, please try your best to use the forum Quote function, especially when it's something important like this. I've looked for this quote on this thread but can't find it. In the past you have taken a quote from one poster and attributed it to another (innocent mistake I'm sure) Not saying that this is what you've done here, but could you please go back and use the forum quote function on this one so we all can see exactly where it came from.
Thanks.

Sure. I think this will hyperlink you.

http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...5&postcount=65

Drake

02-03-2018 03:41 PM

UntoHim

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Ohio>“...PL's vices were well known in to those related to LSM. If WL just wanted his sons to be successful via some business venture, then why not just funnel money to him? Only the accountants would then know, rather than risking scandals regarding rape and immorality.”

02-03-2018 03:16 PM

Drake

Re: Whistleblower

-1

HERn,

If challenging the allegation of rape when there was none straining at a gnat then guilty as charged.

I have made my view clear on what I think of PL and his actions. Do not pretend otherwise. But save the rape charge where it applies.

And you should love everything the Lord Jesus says not just selections that are convenient in the moment.

Thanks
Drake

02-03-2018 02:48 PM

HERn

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

You drop a dime when there is a crime.

What was the crime? What do you tell the police? What would the sister tell the police? What would John or Godfred tell them?

Drake

I really love some of the things our Lord Jesus said:

Matthew 11: 23 "Woe to you, scribes . . . 24 Blind guides, who strain out the gnat, but drink down the camel."

Our scribe brother Drake has done an excellent job in straining out the gnat of the potential crime issue associated with our sister's sexual abuse; but, I think he's done a much better job of drinking down the camel of not calling the behavior of the perpetrator and his enabling employer as sin.

Just my two cents.

02-03-2018 02:18 PM

Koinonia

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

If you did not expect me to answer it then what kind of game are you playing?
You are avoiding my question... why? Unlike you, I actually expect you to reciprocate and answer mine. You don’t want to? No problem, it wasn’t important enough to you to converse.

Drake, I asked you my question first. Why didn't you answer it?

02-03-2018 12:53 PM

Drake

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Why didn't Witness Lee drop that dime? Wasn't he the one that constantly denigrated the morals of American culture while extolling Chinese morality?

You drop a dime when there is a crime.

What was the crime? What do you tell the police? What would the sister tell the police? What would John or Godfred tell them?

Drake

02-03-2018 12:43 PM

TLFisher

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

Maybe he could be considered in the church because he was in the LSM office ... but not really.

This is why I believe John and Ken went to meet with Benson and Ray. The LSM office was in Anaheim, but Phillip didn't meet with the Church in Anaheim. When someone who doesn't meet in your assembly, how can you excommunicate them?
So it was really an LSM matter. In my opinion Benson and Ray already knew about Phillip's history and didn't want to be involved. To touch Phillip would mean to touch his father and that would hinder their ambitions. So they only recourse was to say it's a local matter.

02-03-2018 12:12 PM

Ohio

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

If you did not expect me to answer it then what kind of game are you playing?

You are avoiding my question... why? Unlike you, I actually expect you to reciprocate and answer mine. You don’t want to? No problem, it wasn’t important enough to you to converse.

Drake

No, Drake, it is you who are playing games.

02-03-2018 12:10 PM

Ohio

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Then why didn't John or Godfred make that call or drop a dime on PL?

Why didn't Witness Lee drop that dime?

Wasn't he the one that constantly denigrated the morals of American culture while extolling Chinese morality?

02-03-2018 11:57 AM

Drake

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koinonia

I did not expect Drake to answer the question. He won't, apparently. And that is very sad and very telling.

If you did not expect me to answer it then what kind of game are you playing?

You are avoiding my question... why? Unlike you, I actually expect you to reciprocate and answer mine. You don’t want to? No problem, it wasn’t important enough to you to converse.

Drake

02-03-2018 11:53 AM

awareness

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Bro Awareness, Please elaborate. I don’t understand what you mean by PL wasn’t in the church anyway.

He didn't attend meetings. He was the opposite of a burning brother. He preferred alcohol, porno, and messing with the sisters.

Maybe he could be considered in the church because he was in the LSM office ... but not really.

I suppose excommunication meant no more money. And that's a good thing. Why pay a sexual predator?

Does that help? Or did I go too far? Eventually his excommunication was withdrawn. And back on the payroll. That's what happens when you're the ultimate leaders son.

02-03-2018 11:46 AM

Koinonia

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Koinonia, this is hilarious, if not frighteningly sad.

For Drake to admit WL was wrong makes him feel like part of an inquisition.

I did not expect Drake to answer the question. He won't, apparently. And that is very sad and very telling.

02-03-2018 11:45 AM

Drake

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

When Philip Lee molested and abused sisters, paid or volunteer, at LSM ... yes, the police should be called.

Then why didn't John or Godfred make that call or drop a dime on PL?

02-03-2018 11:43 AM

Ohio

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Ohio>“...PL's vices were well known in to those related to LSM. If WL just wanted his sons to be successful via some business venture, then why not just funnel money to him? Only the accountants would then know, rather than risking scandals regarding rape and immorality.”

But look, I’ll be fair. You reserve the right to change your mind and to clarify.

Do you believe that PL committed rape?

Drake

02-03-2018 11:37 AM

Ohio

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Ok Ohio. Yours is a moral and biblical argument. This thread started with the introduction of the idea of criminal charges. Should criminal charges have been filed?

When Philip Lee molested and abused sisters, paid or volunteer, at LSM ... yes, the police should be called.

02-03-2018 11:36 AM

Drake

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Where? Let me see it.

Ohio>“...PL's vices were well known in to those related to LSM. If WL just wanted his sons to be successful via some business venture, then why not just funnel money to him? Only the accountants would then know, rather than risking scandals regarding rape and immorality.”

But look, I’ll be fair. You reserve the right to change your mind and to clarify.

Do you believe that PL committed rape?

Drake

02-03-2018 11:34 AM

Ohio

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koinonia

Drake, it doesn't look good for you that you don't want to answer this question.

Was Witness Lee wrong to oppose Philip Lee's excommunication?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Koinonia,

I have answered many of your questions. I am happy to answer more when you reciprocate and answer mine.

I don’t care what it looks like. I won’t voluntarily participate in what feels like an inquisition.

Drake

Koinonia, this is hilarious, if not frighteningly sad.

For Drake to admit WL was wrong makes him feel like part of an inquisition.

02-03-2018 11:25 AM

Drake

Re: Whistleblower

Ok Ohio. Yours is a moral and biblical argument.

This thread started with the introduction of the idea of criminal charges.

Should criminal charges have been filed?

Drake

02-03-2018 11:23 AM

Ohio

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Because you have made the allegation before.

But today is a new day.... you can clear it up once and for all.. do you believe PL was guilty of rape?

Yes or no?

Drake

Where? Let me see it.

02-03-2018 11:20 AM

Drake

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koinonia

Drake, it doesn't look good for you that you don't want to answer this question.

Was Witness Lee wrong to oppose Philip Lee's excommunication?

02-03-2018 11:18 AM

Ohio

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Ok, should criminal charges have been filed also? If so, what?

It's obvious from STTIL that the elders in Anaheim and the victims at LSM wanted to keep the matter "in house" and not go to the law. The principles in I Cor. 6, I Tim 5, etc. were apparently on their minds. They really thought that WL would provide "justice," thinking that judgement "begins in the house of God."

Obviously no one at LSM at that time could be considered a "wise" man. (I Cor 6.5)

Paul instructed Timothy concerning church leaders (I Tim 5.21), "I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and Christ Jesus and the chosen angels to observe these things without prejudice, doing nothing out of favoritism."

Consider how sober and serious Paul's instruction to Timothy is here. He calls on God and Christ Jesus and the chosen angels to witness: Timothy must serve without prejudice and without partiality.

This is exactly the opposite of what WL did!

During that entire time, WL treated Ingalls and others with prejudice and treated his boy Philip with partiality.

Did not God and Christ and the chosen angels witness that?

02-03-2018 11:04 AM

Koinonia

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

You’ll need to move from interrogation mode to mutual dialogue if you care continue .

Thanks
Drake

Drake, it doesn't look good for you that you don't want to answer this question.

Was Witness Lee wrong to oppose Philip Lee's excommunication?

02-03-2018 11:03 AM

Drake

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Why do you keep screaming "RAPE" in every post?

Because you have made the allegation before.

But today is a new day.... you can clear it up once and for all.. do you believe PL was guilty of rape?

Yes or no?

Drake

02-03-2018 11:00 AM

Ohio

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Thank about that... why are you so eager to make claims that principles have not made? Please provide some testimony that proves your allegation of rape.

Drake

Why do you keep screaming "RAPE" in every post?

02-03-2018 10:54 AM

Drake

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

Philip wasn't in the church anyway ... so excommunication a non-starter.

And wasn't he brought back? Like Watchman Nee ... by Witness Lee?

Bro Awareness,

Please elaborate. I don’t understand what you mean by PL wasn’t in the church anyway.

Thanks
Drake

02-03-2018 10:50 AM

awareness

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Yes, they were.

Do you think excommunication was sufficient?

Philip wasn't in the church anyway ... so excommunication a non-starter.

And wasn't he brought back? Like Watchman Nee ... by Witness Lee?

02-03-2018 10:40 AM

Drake

Re: Whistleblower

Ohio>”NO!”

Ok, should criminal charges have been filed also? If so, what?

This is where we agree and disagree. I agree that PL should have been excommunicated and I also believe if he committed a crime the police should have been called in. Did he?

If he did not commit a crime then there would be no basis for calling the police into the situation. Did John or Godfred believe a crime was committed? Did the sister allege a crime was committed? If not, why do you allege what none of them do?

Thank about that... why are you so eager to make claims that principles have not made? Please provide some testimony that proves your allegation of rape.

Drake

02-03-2018 10:29 AM

Drake

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koinonia

Was Witness Lee wrong to oppose the excommunication?

You’ll need to move from interrogation mode to mutual dialogue if you care continue .

Thanks
Drake

02-03-2018 10:15 AM

Ohio

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Do you think excommunication was sufficient?

NO!

Bible says to rebuke before all, that all may learn and be in fear. (I Tim 5.20)

In the same section, Paul instructs Timothy "not to lay hands or appoint men prematurely because the sins of some men are quite obvious, preceding them to judgment, but the sins of others surface later."

Philip's character and sins were obvious to all the brothers who knew him. By all accounts he was an unsaved reprobate. No spiritual minister would ever allow such a one as Philip to go near the people of God without posted guards. Yet WL promoted him to 2nd in command while he was in Taiwan. Unbelievable! Not just over his printing presses, but over all the workers around the globe!

WL was great at instructing everyone else how to serve in the church, but apparently never applied his teachings to himself.

Yet what disturbs so many of us the most is what WL did to these men of God, these whistleblowers, these ones like John Ingalls who spoke their conscience, acted like real shepherds, and were willing to suffer for righteousness sake. Then WL had new puppet elders appointed in Anaheim who reinstated Philip without repentance.

02-03-2018 10:03 AM

UntoHim

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Yes, they were.
Do you think excommunication was sufficient?

Sufficient or not, this rightful and righteous excommunication of the unapologetic and unrepentant sexual predator, Phillip Lee, was "undone" by those pack of man-pleasing, puppet elders in Anaheim at the direct order of Witness Lee. I know of many dear brothers and sisters who left the LC of Lee because of this dastardly act of cowardness and betrayal to the victims. Of all the lowdown, despicable things done by Witness Lee and those puppet elders, this one act stands out as the worst....and let me tell you...that takes some doing.

02-03-2018 09:37 AM

UntoHim

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

All of this indicates what a dark spirit of utter corruption and deception dominated the Local Church of Witness Lee at that point. -

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

The problem is a system where one person is considered God's authority on the earth....
That's the kind of thing Watchman Nee's Spiritual Authority produces ... and that was produced in Lee's Recovery movement.

awareness has brought up one of the roots of the problems we are discussing on this thread.
"Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely" Not a verse in the Bible but speaks of a universal truth nonetheless.

One of the main reasons that the Local Church of Witness Lee got nailed with the "cult" tag back in the 70s is the abject power invested in one man as the unquestioned "one apostle with the one ministry for the age". Of course Lee's off-the-wall home-brewed theology didn't help. Neither did their secrecy about what is really taught and practiced behind the meeting hall doors.

John Myer, in his book A Future and A Hope outlined this dynamic:
The most glaring of these was the stress on the group’s central figure, Witness Lee. I understood the concept of appreciation and respect toward ministers, but when titles like “the oracle,” “the minister of the age” and “the apostle” were routinely ascribed to Lee it struck me as being devotion of an unbalanced kind. According to my long-term observations, this issue alone raised red flags in more people than all the other questionable items in the Local Church Movement put together.
-

02-03-2018 09:19 AM

Koinonia

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Yes, they were.

Do you think excommunication was sufficient?

Was Witness Lee wrong to oppose the excommunication?

02-03-2018 09:03 AM

Drake

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

By defending the Lee's and attacking whistleblowers, you align yourself with sleazy.

No one is mischaracterizing you. You don't any help for that.

No one is attacking whistleblowers. You are not a whistleblower.

02-03-2018 09:00 AM

Drake

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koinonia

Drake, were the Anaheim elders right to excommunicate Philip Lee? And was Witness Lee wrong to oppose the measure?

Yes, they were.

Do you think excommunication was sufficient?

02-03-2018 08:07 AM

Ohio

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Right. Snippy.
Provide the citation that substantiates rape. And stop mischaracterizing my objections. I am not defending Philip Lee.

By defending the Lee's and attacking whistleblowers, you align yourself with sleazy.

No one is mischaracterizing you. You don't any help for that.

02-03-2018 08:02 AM

awareness

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

I am objecting to the sensationalism and mischaracterization of calling it rape.

Maybe I missed it, but I asked twice if poster's out here are saying the sister was raped, and neither time was the answer "yes."

Philip was acting the big shot and was sexually inappropriate when I was there but it was kept secret. I was gone by the time it came to light. But I've been on these forums for years, and if he ever did, I've never heard he rape a sister. If he did I'm sorry for that sister(s), but if so she should have reported it to the law then and there.

But if it did happen, and the sister(s) kept quiet, I understand. We can't talk freely about sex out here on this forum, much, much, much less in the LC environment. That is very clear with John I. The sister's claim was dealt with very hush-hushly. Even when he confronted it, and the offense wasn't dealt with, John didn't follow Matthew 18, and announce it to the church. Talking about sex is anathema to Christians in general. I can't even mention spiritual h******ts out here, for some weird strange reason.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

She did not claim it was rape.John or Godfred did not call it rape.

We've seen claims of rape in the MeToo movement, but long after the statue of limitation has passed. Perhaps that will happen with sisters in the LC. Maybe. Maybe not. Time will tell. Look how long it took for Watchman Nee's rapes to come out. Those three sisters didn't report it either. Why, bro Drake, why?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

You misunderstand me on your last point. I am of the belief that anything that can be destroyed should be destroyed. I have no need to hide anything from the public eye. I am not so inclined. But neither do I cast off all restraint.... we always must consider our words before the Lord and be well pleasing to Him.
Drake

I might be wrong, I don't know, but I think speaking the truth pleases the Lord.

Thanks for your reply bro Drake. You're a peach.

02-03-2018 07:41 AM

Koinonia

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Right. Snippy. Provide the citation that substantiates rape. And stop mischaracterizing my objections. I am not defending Philip Lee.

Drake, were the Anaheim elders right to excommunicate Philip Lee? And was Witness Lee wrong to oppose the measure?

02-03-2018 07:00 AM

Drake

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

So I am "snippy" for telling you to get your facts straight before you challenge men of God and defend that degenerate Philip Lee?

Right. Snippy.

Provide the citation that substantiates rape. And stop mischaracterizing my objections. I am not defending Philip Lee.

Drake

02-03-2018 06:47 AM

Ohio

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

Happiernow's full story was posted only a few minutes. I happened to open it and read it before she deleted it. She revealed so much information but thought better of it. She deleted it quickly.

I also read Happiernow's full story which was posted.

It was far worse than Nell is now telling us.

02-03-2018 06:44 AM

Ohio

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Well ,ok. Indiana just tossed that in without putting it a timeframe, so don’t get so snippy.
Take your pick..... neither support the rape allegation you made.
What testimony makes that case? Nothing presented thus far substantiates that allegation.

So I am "snippy" for telling you to get your facts straight before you challenge men of God and defend that degenerate Philip Lee?

02-03-2018 05:56 AM

Nell

Re: Whistleblower

http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...18&postcount=1

Quote:

Originally Posted by happiernow

The church allows sexual predators to flourish. I have experienced this first hand. Does anyone else have experience with this?

Happiernow's full story was posted only a few minutes. I happened to open it and read it before she deleted it. She revealed so much information but thought better of it. She deleted it quickly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

Happiernow,
Your story breaks my heart. I'm so sorry. It's amazing that you have chosen "happiernow" as your moniker. I believe that during the horror you've experienced in your young life, that God was weeping with you and his heart is surely broken also. The things you described are not of Him, but clearly from his enemy, the Devil.

No one can hurt you as much as your family. That includes your earthly family as well as your Christian brothers and sisters. There are many stories of abuse by Local Church "authorities" who lord it over God's children.
Please don't give up on Him. How can I help you?
Nell

02-02-2018 09:45 PM

Drake

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

Surely you understand that ... right bro Drake?
It's been a long time, but I can still put myself into that mindset. And I can tell you right here and now that, in that devotional mind set, the last thing I would want is for any of this to reach the public eye.

Yes Awareness, I understand that a person can be a willing participant for a personal preference or even a belief in a noble cause. Still, that is consensual. I am objecting to the sensationalism and mischaracterization of calling it rape. She did not claim it was rape.John or Godfred did not call it rape. The only ones calling it rape are forum members.....

You misunderstand me on your last point. I am of the belief that anything that can be destroyed should be destroyed. I have no need to hide anything from the public eye. I am not so inclined. But neither do I cast off all restraint.... we always must consider our words before the Lord and be well pleasing to Him.

Drake

02-02-2018 09:36 PM

awareness

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

The evidence presented suggests the sister was a willing participant. Else what did she have to repent for.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

If you believe that then why didn’t they call the cops?

Again, you are right bro Drake. But more often than not it doesn't work that way. Consider that all parties are devoted to selling to the world Christ and the Church. So the last thing any of them would want to do is to degrade and stain that message. Going to the authorities would make it public, and would give the church a bad rep. Their reflex would be to keep it in house.

If the sister was forcibly violated then, she shouldn't have taken the assault to anyone in the church. She should have gone straight to the cops. But there again, since she said that, she "served [LSM] sacrificially and faithfully" her reflex would be to protect the reputation of that which she was devoting her life to.

The best way to do that was to take it to the elder(s). And if you ask me, the elder(s) should be legally obligated to report it to the authorities. But again, everyone would want to protect the message that they were giving their whole life to. To accomplish that, if her devotion was still intact, it's likely the sister would carry that as her silent cross, while going on with Christ and the Church.

Surely you understand that ... right bro Drake?

It's been a long time, but I can still put myself into that mindset. And I can tell you right here and now that, in that devotional mind set, the last thing I would want is for any of this to reach the public eye.

02-02-2018 08:42 PM

Drake

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Get your facts straight.

These events happened a decade apart.

Well ,ok. Indiana just tossed that in without putting it a timeframe, so don’t get so snippy.

Take your pick..... neither support the rape allegation you made.

What testimony makes that case? Nothing presented thus far substantiates that allegation.

Don’t you think that if Brother John thought a rape was committed that he would have called the police?

Seriously, what kind of person do you think he was?

Drake

02-02-2018 07:01 PM

Evangelical

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

But that's hardly the point, is it?

You cited someones post who did not say they were sexually abused and tried to make it sound as if they were. If they had issues with the roomate or the training that is a different matter altogether so I dont see the relevance. Clearly their experiences have nothing to do with the matters you have raised.

02-02-2018 06:56 PM

Ohio

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Ohio,

So you are saying that Warren Peterson’s eyewitness testimony is inaccurate and that brothers John and Godfred received a confession and repentance from the sister when they should not have since she was a victim and not a willing participant.

If you believe that then why didn’t they call the cops?

“"...when they began to engage in mutually compromising immoral physical contact........The elders then went to the sister to confront her on the matter and she immediately confessed that the story was true and broke down in tears. She was very sorry and expressed her remorse and repentance to the elders. “

Your sensational charge of rape does not hold up. The eyewitness testimony states consensual and Brothers John and Godfred, the elders, did not report the crime. Unless you believe the elders were also negligent in caring for the flock by not reporting a crime and complicit in the crime by allowing it to go unchecked for a year or more.

Drake

Get your facts straight.

These events happened a decade apart.

02-02-2018 05:32 PM

TLFisher

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

The problem is a system where one person is considered God's authority on the earth.

That's the problem with deputy authority doctrine and practice. You can run roughshod over brothers and sisters without any real consequence. They either have to take it or leave.
The doctrine produces pride and negates any possibility of being called for accountability.
Reading the various posts through the day. So much focus what was included in John's book.
Not even talking about ones whose stories have yet to be told.

02-02-2018 04:40 PM

awareness

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

All of this indicates what a dark spirit of utter corruption and deception dominated the Local Church of Witness Lee at that point. -

The problem is a system where one person is considered God's authority on the earth.

It happened to the Mega-church in Ft. Lauderdale, Calvary Chapel, that had grown to 20,000 members.

Pastor Bob, as he was called, had what he called the Moses system of church governance. That is, God delivers to the Moses figure, pastor Bob in this case, who carries the ultimate unquestioned authority of God. That same unquestioned authority was delegated to the 200 preachers below him.

That allowed all kinds of sorted behavior, because the leadership went unquestioned, and were unaccountable.

Long story short, Pastor Bob got caught messing with married sisters, and the preachers below him were even involved with same sex relations. It was all covered up until a whistleblower came forth.

It happens in cults. Rose McGowan, for example, that was first to expose Weinstein, grew up in The Children of God, that was basically a sex cult. At least they were honest, and didn't cover it up.

That's the kind of thing Watchman Nee's Spiritual Authority produces ... and that was produced in Lee's Recovery movement.

02-02-2018 04:27 PM

Drake

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Your post #54 implied it was merely an affair.
You quickly rush to judge Ingalls, but never place responsibility on your MOTA.

02-02-2018 04:07 PM

Ohio

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Ohio, Of course, sexual abuse is a crime. Anywhere. What’s your point?

Your post #54 implied it was merely an affair.

You quickly rush to judge Ingalls, but never place responsibility on your MOTA.

02-02-2018 03:32 PM

Drake

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Work place sexual abuse is not a crime?

Using your position to disadvantage the staff, often volunteers, is just a sin? Is that a mortal sin or just a venial sin, Drake?

Ohio,

Of course, sexual abuse is a crime. Anywhere.

What’s your point?

Drake

02-02-2018 01:59 PM

Ohio

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Let's not forget that it was the elders in Anaheim who actually stopped the husband of one of Philip's victims from getting a gun and killing him.

Did you see the video of that guy with 3 daughters reading to that slimy Larry Nasser doctor during sentencing. Another few seconds and he would have killed the guy. The judge was great, and let him go.

This is the kind of meeting that an honorable Witness Lee should have forced Philip to endure. Let all his victims rebuke him to his face, and shame Philip before all.

02-02-2018 01:40 PM

UntoHim

Re: Whistleblower

The fact that John Ingalls and the others were "were revulsed to the depths of our being" should tell us all we need to know about the nature of the gross sexual misconduct of Phillip Lee. There is no need to get into all the gory details of this sordid affair on this public forum.

What revusles me to the depths of my being is Witness Lee's words and actions (or lack thereof) when he was made aware IN SPECIFIC DETAIL regarding Phillip Lee's gross misconduct. (in fact our dear brother Lee had been informed about Phillip's sordid behavior for YEARS before) At first he didn't want to even discipline his sexual predator son....he apparently just shrugged his shoulders and said "Nobody's Perfect!" Only when he realized that he was about to lose his iron grip on "The Recovery" did he take any serious action.

All of this indicates what a dark spirit of utter corruption and deception dominated the Local Church of Witness Lee at that point. This magnitude of corruption and deception does not come upon a movement in any short period of time....it was years and years and even decades in the making. The recent revelations regarding the sexual misconduct of Watchman Nee now bring a clearer understanding of how and when this corruption and deception entered the LC movement from the very beginnings. From the recent testimonies here on this very forum, we know for sure that this same spirit of utter corruption and deception is still active to this day. May God have mercy.

So strong is this spirit of deception, that otherwise spiritually mature, sane and sensible people will do things, and cover up things, that even unsaved and unsanctified people would scarcely consider doing. How else does one account for the inaction of people like John Ingalls, Al Knoch, Godfred Otutey, Bill Malon, John So and many others in the face of such utter corruption for years and even decades? Of course they all paid a very high price for their decided ignorance and inexcusable tolerance. To be sure, many of these men did eventual act decisively and courageously. Better late than never. But I'm afraid maybe too late for some of the hundreds upon hundreds (thousands?) of vanquished foes strung along the highway of outcasts and defectors of the Local Church of Witness Lee.

Thankfully, our God of mercy and grace is waiting to comfort and heal. For any who need help with this process we are here as well.

-

02-02-2018 01:38 PM

Ohio

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Brother John was right.. it was repulsive.

So, if it was a crime, why didn't Brother John go to the police... and why not that very same morning?

"...when they began to engage in mutually compromising immoral physical contact. "
Drake

Do you really wish to critique John Ingalls and exonerate Witness and Phillip Lee with this defense?

Quote:

That evening she sat in my living room and with tears opened her heart to me. She had served sacrificially and faithfully for many years in the LSM office, and now she said she could not tolerate anymore the gross misconduct that was being perpetrated upon some and especially upon her.

Doesn't sound consensual to me.

02-02-2018 01:18 PM

Ohio

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Right. That is how I read it too.

There was no crime so Brother John did not go to the police. What would the police do? Adultery is not a crime, it is a sin. They would have told Brother John the same thing Benson did. Brother John needed to deal with it.

Therefore, the allegations of rape are false. As terrible as the sin was it was not a crime. There is nothing to report to the police. By every account presented it was consensual. Yet, why did Brother John and Godfred wait so long to take action and only then after a near insurrection in the meeting hall?

Drake

Work place sexual abuse is not a crime?

Using your position to disadvantage the staff, often volunteers, is just a sin? Is that a mortal sin or just a venial sin, Drake?

02-02-2018 12:25 PM

awareness

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

OBW,

Exactly. And why would a sister talk to John and Godfred about a consentual "relationship" with Philip Lee??? Does this sound like "consent"?

From Speaking the Truth in Love...
Wednesday, Sept. 30th, I received a telephone call from a sister who had a prominent position in the Living Stream Ministry Office, asking if she could see me that night. I consented. That evening she sat in my living room and with tears opened her heart to me. She had served sacrificially and faithfully for many years in the LSM office, and now she said she could not tolerate anymore the gross misconduct that was being perpetrated upon some and especially upon her.
...
In the morning of December 19, just before Ken and I were to leave for Texas that afternoon, the sister from the LSM office who had spoken to me on September 30th (see page 10) called and asked to speak to Godfred and me. We met with her and were utterly amazed at what we heard. She began to relate to us in detail some of the things she suffered while in the service of the LSM office. She wanted us to realize how grave the problem was. We were revulsed to the depths of our being, and when the conversation ended and we parted, we so full of abhorrent feelings that we were literally in a daze. ...

Godfred drove me to the airport to meet Ken. We were in a state of shock and utter disgust. All this had taken place in what we called the Lord’s recovery!

...

So sister Nell, are you saying it was rape?

02-02-2018 12:21 PM

Drake

Re: Whistleblower

02-02-2018 12:12 PM

Nell

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by OBW

Consensual? Do you really believe that? This kind of position would not be tolerated today in the world, and you expect the church to ignore it?

Harvey would be smiling at you.

OBW,

Exactly. And why would a sister talk to John and Godfred about a consentual "relationship" with Philip Lee??? Does this sound like "consent"?

From Speaking the Truth in Love...
Wednesday, Sept. 30th, I received a telephone call from a sister who had a prominent position in the Living Stream Ministry Office, asking if she could see me that night. I consented. That evening she sat in my living room and with tears opened her heart to me. She had served sacrificially and faithfully for many years in the LSM office, and now she said she could not tolerate anymore the gross misconduct that was being perpetrated upon some and especially upon her.

...

In the morning of December 19, just before Ken and I were to leave for Texas that afternoon, the sister from the LSM office who had spoken to me on September 30th (see page 10) called and asked to speak to Godfred and me. We met with her and were utterly amazed at what we heard. She began to relate to us in detail some of the things she suffered while in the service of the LSM office. She wanted us to realize how grave the problem was. We were revulsed to the depths of our being, and when the conversation ended and we parted, we so full of abhorrent feelings that we were literally in a daze. ...

Godfred drove me to the airport to meet Ken. We were in a state of shock and utter disgust. All this had taken place in what we called the Lord’s recovery!

...

02-02-2018 12:08 PM

awareness

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by OBW

Consensual? Do you really believe that? This kind of position would not be tolerated today in the world, and you expect the church to ignore it?

Harvey would be smiling at you.

Bro OBW are you saying because of the power factor it was rape?

02-02-2018 11:45 AM

TLFisher

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

If immoral, then why did they as leading elders not take action for over a year or two? Why did it take a rambunctious crowd to spin out of control to incite the elders to take action shortly after?

This forum asks probing questions about why Witness Lee didnt take his son out back behind the barn and shoot him....in a manner of speaking. How about factoring in what Brother John actually said since he is being quoted extensively. What did he say that indicates he thought this was criminal behavior? You may think it was but did he?

Drake

How many times did the brothers go to Witness Lee? 12? 13? In my opinion they were looking to Witness Lee to do what was right and just. Longer it went on, the less patience many meeting as the Church in Anaheim had.
Speaking of John in particular when it came to the "fake news" of John being ambitious and "wanting to take over the recovery", by that time he had been a co-worker for more than 25 years. having served alongside him for all those years certainly there was a measure of respecting Witness Lee as a fellow brother and knowing the love a father has for his children. That he would defer to Witness Lee to do the right thing.
Regarding Witness lee, many viewed him as my serving ones taught me that Witness Lee is a modern day apostle Paul.
When you place a brother on such a pedestal, certainly you expect his actions to be in accord to his ministry.

02-02-2018 11:28 AM

OBW

Re: Whistleblower

Consensual? Do you really believe that? This kind of position would not be tolerated today in the world, and you expect the church to ignore it?

Harvey would be smiling at you.

02-02-2018 09:58 AM

Drake

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

Hey Drake, I think you are right ... if there's a crime committed, like rape.

But the goings-on in the LSM office wasn't a crime, that I know of. From what I understand, it was consenting adults. And adultery isn't a crime.

As usual, the cover up is as bad as the infraction. Why keep it hush-hush?

That's obvious. To protect the integrity and reputation of the church.

Take John Ingalls. Did he follow Matthew 18:15-17? Yes. But he didn't "tell it to the church." (He did write a book, however).

My question is then, were there crimes committed? If so, it/they should have been reported to the authorities.

I still support the 'MeToo' movement, and think those abused in the LC should be included in it.

02-02-2018 09:41 AM

awareness

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

First, I have said it many times.... if there is criminal behavior it should be reported to the police.

Yet, this whole conversation begs the questions....

Why did John Ingalls, or Godfred who knew before John mentioned it to him, not report the criminal behavior to the police? Did John or Godfred not consider the behavior criminal but rather immoral?

If immoral then why was it so and not criminal?

If immoral, then why did they as leading elders not take action for over a year or two? Why did it take a rambunctious crowd to spin out of control to incite the elders to take action shortly after?

This forum asks probing questions about why Witness Lee didnt take his son out back behind the barn and shoot him....in a manner of speaking. How about factoring in what Brother John actually said since he is being quoted extensively. What did he say that indicates he thought this was criminal behavior? You may think it was but did he?

Drake

02-02-2018 07:28 AM

Nell

Re: Whistleblower

Legally, the victims must file charges. Then the witnesses need to stand up and speak to the abuser or his enabler like John did. Hindsight is 20/20. We can't do anything about what happened 40 years ago. Every case is different, but just because no one called the police then doesn't mean they couldn't have or shouldn't have.

We can only expose the sin in the camp today. We can encourage and support those being abused today. Most important, we can listen to them and believe they are telling the truth. If they decide to report to the police, we can support them in this too because it is an option.

My post #44 suggests a course of action to those in the Local Church. You could go to your local leadership and expose the matter. What you cannot do is continue the cover up by making spurious arguments that mimimize the topic and those who may never recover from their experience with Witness Lee's "ministry".

Most of all we pray for the sisters. We pray that this gross sin in the Body of Christ will end.

Nell

02-02-2018 07:04 AM

Ohio

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

If immoral then why was it so and not criminal? If immoral, then why did they as leading elders not take action for over a year or two? Why did it take a rambunctious crowd to spin out of control to incite the elders to take action shortly after?

Some of Phillip Lee's actions were immoral, and some criminal. Your post conflates the two.

When Max first confronted him, that event was immoral, and we know this because the sister confessed as much. Yet, it was still abuse because he used his power.

Since Phillip knew he could act with impunity, without accountability, and protected by his Daddy with his cadre of enforcers, his immoral actions became more aggressive. Eventually, the husband of one molested sister planned to shoot Philip.

02-02-2018 06:38 AM

Ohio

Re: Whistleblower

Why didn't Witness Lee call the police?

Was not he the spiritual leader? The Minister of the Age?

The one who claimed to be today's Paul, yet unlike Paul, he never exercised to have a good conscience void of offense.

Why did Witness Lee promise to take care of these matters, assuring the brothers around him, and then covered up criminal activity.

The elders and saints wanted to go to the police. It was Lee who stopped them.

02-02-2018 06:18 AM

Drake

Re: Whistleblower

02-02-2018 05:59 AM

ZNPaaneah

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

The tragedy of actual church history tells us, like the Catholic church scandal, that leaders will always lie and coverup criminal activities to preserve their "reputations."

Don't tell me leaders at LSM are any different than today's politicians either. They rule just "like the Gentiles" we were all warned about.

Women in Hollywood have the courage to stand up to Harvey Weinstein, by comparison Phillip Lee was nothing. The sister's in the church have the spirit of Jesus Christ within them. How are they going to rule the gentiles if they cannot stand up to little Phillip Lee?

I have no idea how many people covered up for PL, but if you knew you should have stood up regardless of whether you were a "small sister" or a "leader". This is what it means to "take up your cross and follow Me". You have to stand up for what you know is right regardless of the cost.

02-02-2018 05:53 AM

Nell

Re: Whistleblower

They lie and cover until someone blows the whistle.That's what I'm praying for.

Nell

02-02-2018 05:43 AM

Ohio

Re: Whistleblower

02-02-2018 03:30 AM

aron

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Watchman Nee

LEADING IN THE WORK

When God’s work started in several places in China in 1921, some truths were not clearly distinguished. For instance, grace and law were not clearly defined; nor were the kingdom of heaven and eternal life, grace and reward, or salvation and victory clearly differentiated. The understanding of truths in the Lord was neither deep nor rich enough. However, the understanding of the gospel of grace was comparatively clear, and it was being quite clearly preached at that time when Mr. Wang Ming-dao was in Teh-Chow, Sister Pearl Wang and Ruth Lee were in Nanking, and some other workers and I were in Foochow.

Look at any LSM history and it's rife with statements like this. Clearly women were instrumental in "Leading the Work" at one point. But they were railroaded when they were no longer expedient, and were a potential threat to those who held power. When the organisation-building process reached critical mass, suddenly they had to "know their place".

The Recovered Church aka Little Flock aka Local Church became another human institution, with all the attendant issues, not unlike the NCAA's Big Ten Sports programs (see, Penn State U. and Michigan State U. athletic departments).

People covered the crimes to protect the institution, and they protected the institution because it fed them power. They had power to abuse, control, manipulate. But no power to heal.

02-01-2018 09:35 PM

Nell

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

There is no indication in her post that she was sexually abused for decades. She cites passive aggressiveness from a racist roommate.

But that's hardly the point, is it?

The point is the hypocrisy of Witness Lee's ministry and the fruit it has been bearing ever since his son Philip was caught in the LSM office with a sister who was another man's wife. The point is Benson and Ray listening to Witness Lee and not dealing with BenM as they KNEW they should and influencing three other elders in Texas to do the same. The point is these men LIED to the saints and didn't protect the sisters with the truth. The point is BenM later seduced his brother's wife, breaking up two marriages and marrying his brother's wife. The point is that sexual sin continues in the Local Churches TO THIS DAY.

If you want to make a meaningful contribution to this topic, why don't you print it out and carry it to Benson Phillips, Ray Graver and Ron Kangas. Tell them that sexual abuse in the Local Churches cannot continue. Tell them that this sexual abuse in the Local Churches is to the point of being "common knowledge". Tell them this is sinful hypocrisy and makes a mockery of the Lord's name. Tell them this hypocrisy exposes the ministry of Witness Lee as a sham. Tell them that women in the Body of Christ who touch the Local Churches are becoming shipwrecked in their faith because of the predators who abuse women and because of the "brothers" who condone such behavior by their inaction. Tell them you will not stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ with this on your conscience.

Tell them that if THEY DON'T do something about it, YOU WILL. Then YOU stand up in the meeting and TELL THE CHURCH. Otherwise, you're just the same old troll you've been since began posting on this forum. All your pontificating about the wonderful Local Churches and the ministry of Witness Lee are blatant hypocrisy. You're just as big a hypocrite as they are.

Blow the whistle on this criminal behavior before it becomes a police matter.

Nell

02-01-2018 07:06 PM

Evangelical

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

Women being sexually abused in the Local Church for decades and it being covered up by Née, Lee and the current leadership makes me suspicious.
Don't blame the victim for the damage done to them.

There is no indication in her post that she was sexually abused for decades. She cites passive aggressiveness from a racist roommate.

02-01-2018 05:48 PM

aron

Re: Whistleblower

Those who neatly side-step the issue of the long-standing (and continuing) treatment of women make me suspicious. Remember - Jesus met people where they were. He didn't say, "Go up to Jerusalem; there, I'll meet you by the altar." If you don't see this basic point how can you even preach the gospel?

You have to meet people where they are; if you can't meet people where they are and remain connected to God, then are you really connected to God?

02-01-2018 05:26 PM

Ohio

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Her apparent support for the lqgbtqy makes me suspicious. Then again that and feminism go hand in hand dont they? Feminism is about getting rid of men and lesbianism is about filling the void.

Does the LC leadership take any responsibility for many young people who leave their faith and have negative attitudes towards men after being victimized?

What do you think "stumbling the least of these" looks like, Evangelical?

02-01-2018 04:53 PM

UntoHim

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

Don't blame the victim for the damage done to them.

02-01-2018 04:36 PM

Nell

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Her apparent support for the lqgbtqy makes me suspicious. Then again that and feminism go hand in hand dont they? Feminism is about getting rid of men and lesbianism is about filling the void.

Women being sexually abused in the Local Church for decades and it being covered up by Née, Lee and the current leadership makes me suspicious.

Don't blame the victim for the damage done to them.

02-01-2018 03:25 PM

Evangelical

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

Here's another story from a young woman who says "It is quite liberating to be out of the LC and live like a normal person again.".

Her apparent support for the lqgbtqy makes me suspicious. Then again that and feminism go hand in hand dont they? Feminism is about getting rid of men and lesbianism is about filling the void.

02-01-2018 06:58 AM

Nell

Re: Whistleblower

Here's another story from a young woman who says "It is quite liberating to be out of the LC and live like a normal person again.".

The full post is here:
http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...96&postcount=1

Quote:

Originally Posted by QOTSA

Hi everyone!
Long time lurker, first time poster.

Long story short, I was involved in LC in the Midwest for a good 4 years. I was gained on campus when I was a freshman. Was very active on campus. Been to all training and conferences I could afford to go to. Loved spending time with the saints. Dropped out of all other extracurriculars by the end of those 4 years. Lost almost all other contacts as well.

...
Been in behavioral therapy for two years and I can't praise it enough. Therapy saved my life. It rebuilt me as a person from thought processes to actions. I was so damaged and biased and narrow minded I would literally gasp reading some of my old journals from LC years. I didn't sound like a real person; everything on those pages sounded very manufactured and... fake. I was so lost that I didn't feel safe to be honest with myself even, what a tragedy.
Going back to the title. I am a proud feminist and am really into social justice because of my LC years.
...
... I can't think of any other social groups I've been in contact with that exhibit the same level of sexism and oppression. It is unbelievable. ...

It is quite liberating to be out of the LC and live like a normal person again.

Nell

02-01-2018 06:48 AM

Nell

Re: Whistleblower

The horror in this post was removed by Happiernow after only a few minutes. She revealed so much that she, at once, thought better of it, and I totally understand. I read all of it and was shocked. It was the worst case of spiritual abuse by a man/predator in the Local Church that I have ever seen.

The replacement post she left in tact asks a question. A few more have responded with their own experiences by Local Church predators who abuse women.

http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...18&postcount=1

Quote:

Originally Posted by happiernow

The church allows sexual predators to flourish. I have experienced this first hand. Does anyone else have experience with this?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

Happiernow,
Your story breaks my heart. I'm so sorry. It's amazing that you have chosen "happiernow" as your moniker. I believe that during the horror you've experienced in your young life, that God was weeping with you and his heart is surely broken also. The things you described are not of Him, but clearly from his enemy, the Devil.

No one can hurt you as much as your family. That includes your earthly family as well as your Christian brothers and sisters. There are many stories of abuse by Local Church "authorities" who lord it over God's children.

Please don't give up on Him. How can I help you?

Nell

Nell

01-31-2018 08:16 PM

Freedom

Re: Whistleblower

What is perhaps the most disturbing of it all was the fact that Lee was in a position of power and trust, and he continually abused it. He disregarded concerns that were brought to his attention, because it benefited him to do so. He ignored Nee's escapade, saying that he wanted to know nothing about it. He protected his own sons, despite the outrage at what they had done. In another case, he just had the elders tell a brother to move away instead of actually dealing with the situation.

01-31-2018 12:03 PM

TLFisher

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

Witness Lee said: “By the Lord’s mercy, Sister Wang and I decided to know nothing, do nothing, and say nothing concerning this problem.”(22)[/B]
~Hsu M.D, Lily M.; Roberts M.A M.T.S, Dana. My Unforgettable Memories:Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church (Kindle Locations 4397-4400). Xulon Press. Kindle Edition. [/COLOR]

My goodness! Never read the book, but it is telling. If you don't learn from history, you're bound to repeat it.
Fast forward 40+ years to late 1980s Anaheim and you wonder why the Church in Anaheim was in a riotous atmosphere?
Saints were looking to the elders to do the just thing. The elders were looking to Witness Lee to do the right thing. All the while he "knew nothing, did nothing, and said nothing concerning this problem”.

01-31-2018 09:04 AM

Ohio

Re: Whistleblower

Once again scripture was discarded in favor of the MOTA.

How many times were brothers led by the Lord in a definite direction only to get a call from HQ's that changed everything?

Yet we called this "fellowship." And we declared ourselves a "local" church, governed by local elders.

No more need to pray and seek the Lord ... had not God spoken?

Yet ... this new way from HQ's never was blessed by the Lord. And no one dared to bring that up.

01-31-2018 07:26 AM

Nell

Re: Whistleblower

The Shameful Behavior Continues

Poster “Hope” has revealed his own name: Don Rutledge. I believe this is common knowledge now.

The posts below do not make it clear, but there were two instances of sexual immorality discussed below. Don Rutledge (Hope) revealed the first instance when Ben McPherson confessed to Ray Graver. I don’t have an exact date for the conversation among the 5 elders below, but it can be traced back to the approximate time that Ben moved to Tyler, which we also don’t have an exact date for. If someone has this date (Don?) please post it.

The second instance occurred quite a few years later, and was discovered in 1991. If not for Witness Lee, Benson and Ray, the sisters in Irving, Arlington, Dallas and Fort Worth would have at least known that there was a sexual predator among them. Instead, they never knew...until the unthinkable happened. How many sisters today know that there are sexual predators among them in the Local Churches????

…and the history of sexual sin and sexual abuse in the Local Churches continues.

The Public Square (http://www.thebereans.net/forum2/index.php)
- Nee, Lee & the Church of Recovery
(http://www.thebereans.net/forum2/forumdisplay.php?f=342)
- - Texas History (http://www.thebereans.net/forum2/showthread.php?t=39906)

SECOND IMMORAL CASE (EMPHASIS BY NELL TO CLARIFY)
Ben McPherson had an affair with the wife of a brother he had served with in the Local Church in Houston, and then divorced his wife. When the affair was found out, she divorced her husband.

Ben is now married to his brother's former wife. She was my friend, my sister in the Lord, and a spiritual mother to me for years. Some of us tried to help rescue her, but we all failed.

We begged Benson Phillips to try and help rescue these two marriages too. Benson was close to all the parties involved and was responsible for a serious problem which only he could clear up. He was too busy. He had to fly off to spread the church life to Russia. KSA can tell you how well that went.

Ben's children and his brother's children all grew up together in Houston.

Nell

Nell 10-29-07 09:38
________________________________________
Quote Thankful: post #102

If anyone "in-the-know" in Texas had spoken out "negatively" about Ben M.'s condition many years ago when it was discovered, what happened to the brother who lost his wife might have been avoided.

Whoever knew and didn't tell bears a measure of responsibility in that situation since Ben M. was an elder and should have been publicly corrected. Ben M. might have even been helped. Instead, it looks like he was "protected" at his own expense and at the expense of the uninformed sheep.

No Christian likes to hear these kind of things about a fellow believer. But then again, neither does anyone like to hear a doctor say they have cancer.

If a doctor isn't willing to speak "negatively" when cancer is found, he plays a part in the outcome.

Thankful

Nell 10-29-07 09:42
________________________________________
Hope: #103

Regarding Ben McPhersons immorality, this is the report from a first hand witness: Ray Graver was the first to know. He contacted Benson Phillips who called for an urgent gathering at his home with Ray, Joe Davis of Houston, Don Looper of Austin and Don Rutledge of Dallas. This occurred the morning after Ben was found out. All the brothers there were furious. Don Rutledge angrily declared that they had all been betrayed. All agreed that Ben should be publicly excommunicated and publicly rebuked that all may fear. All agreed that the Lord could not bless the church in Irving due to Ben’s sin. Ben had confessed to Ray that this sin was not a one time thing but had been going on for some time including when he was in Arlington. Ben also admitted that he knew the Church in Arlington had lagged the other Dallas area churches in blessing due to his sin. At that time, none of these brothers would sympathize with any immorality and especially from an elder or co-worker.

While they were meeting, Witness Lee returned Bensons urgent message. After about a 30 minute conversation, Benson returned to the room where the brothers were waiting, still in a state of shock and outrage. Witness Lee urged them to consider Bens family and the harm to them if he was publicly exposed. He urged them not to publicly excommunicate him but simply ask him to move away. That is what Ray and Benson decided to do. The other three had big reservations but deferred to the Irving brothers to take care of the matter.

But then the lying started. Many people began to call wanting to know what happened to Ben. Since Witness Lee, Benson and Ray had decided to keep the real situation under wraps, what where these brothers to say. Looper and Rutledge would say that something must have happened in Irving and they did not know for sure – A LIE. Benson and Ray told various stories, Ben wanted to get away etc and not to worry since he was in fellowship.

Witness Lee urged Benson and Ray to spend time with Ben and seek to recover him, but they were too disgusted to seek to contact him.

Yes the worldly wisdom from Witness Lee and the unfaithfulness of the five brothers led to more tragedy. All five have an account to give at the judgment seat.

Hope

In Christ Jesus there is hope for us all.

01-31-2018 05:41 AM

awareness

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

these whistle blowers were labeled as traders, "negative" "rebellious" "touching God's anointed"
-

When I stated that Lee brought Nee's ministry to America, and Lee's sons brought Nee's sexual improprieties to America, I failed to mention that Lee also brought his bag of tricks in covering up such improprieties. Given Nee's improprieties back in Shanghai, this was old hat to Lee. He knew exactly what to do, and what to say. He had pulled off this scam before, and saw it work.

Some might consider: “By telling the truth, the children of God will stumble, God would not be glorified, and the current Local Churches will also be suffered.” Even some might condemn those who intend to expose the true history of Nee. During the family chaos after Nee’s wedding, Witness Lee said: “By the Lord’s mercy, Sister Wang and I decided to know nothing, do nothing, and say nothing concerning this problem.”(22)
~Hsu M.D, Lily M.; Roberts M.A M.T.S, Dana. My Unforgettable Memories:Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church (Kindle Locations 4397-4400). Xulon Press. Kindle Edition.

In Shanghai Nee was looked up to as God's anointed.

Okay, given that Nee started the local church movement in China, this notion of "don't touch God's anointed" made some sense, even if covering up for Nee's sexual sins and adultery, by using Old Testament history, was reprehensible. However, it made no sense when applied to Philip. Philip, in no way shape or form, could be considered God's anointed

Still, Lee reached into that old grab bag, that he used and brought from Shanghai, and whipped out "don't touch God's anointed."

Lee's sons brought Nee's sexual ways to America, Lee brought his ministry, and Lee also brought the way to excuse and cover up such illicit matters. He had seen it before, done it before, having applied it to Nee, back in Shanghai.

Maybe it was old and shopworn, but it worked when applied to Nee, back in the day, and I'll be darn, it worked when applied to Philip too.

I'm sorry, but this makes Lee look like a shyster. And Nee too.

01-30-2018 02:56 PM

Nell

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terry

In the local church culture it's understood never get the police involved. If one does go to the police, it's received as one who is not taking the cross on the matter.

Taking the cross? Submitting to sexual abuse is not the cross. What a horrible and disgusting perversion of a most sacred spiritual truth. That has gone on long enough and it's time it stopped.To use the cross as a weapon against Christian women in order to service the fleshly desires of fleshly, sinful and corrupt men who are little more than wolves in sheep's clothing is beyond reprehensible.

It's a new day. It's time to call the police. Let the criminals "take the cross."

Nell

01-30-2018 12:18 PM

TLFisher

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

You are right. But in this topic, it's a police matter. Sexual abuse wherever it occurs is a crime. In the church, it's a shame to the Lord's name. I pray for those who have been attacked, and have come onto this forum to tell their stories.
Nell

In the local church culture it's understood never get the police involved. If one does go to the police, it's received as one who is not taking the cross on the matter.

01-30-2018 12:02 PM

TLFisher

Re: Whistleblower Re: Max Rapoport

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indiana

Eyewitness Accounts of Philip Lee

According to Philip Lin's book Sacrifice and Sail On, these eyewitness accounts never happened. That's the historical revisionism expected from LSM co-workers. Facts becomes discarded as fiction. Essentially what it means brothers giving eyewitness accounts are being called liars.

01-30-2018 10:48 AM

Ohio

Re: Whistleblower Re: Max Rapoport

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indiana

Max then went to Brother Lee, and upon hearing the report Brother Lee bowed his head and called on the Lord and said, “What shall we do?” Max said they had to do something and suggested that Philip leave Anaheim and go back to Taipei. Brother Lee did not agree with this idea. From that point, his word to the elders was that he would take care of his son. When the question was asked how he could take care of his son when he, Brother Lee, was at home sleeping while his son was still working late with a sister, the answer was the same; he would take care of his son. Although leading brothers and Brother Lee knew about the situation, no action was taken and the sister continued working with Philip at the Living Stream office.

Philip was allowed to continue in his position as manager at LSM for ten years when reports of his immoral behavior again came forth and the pattern of non-discipline was repeated.

Brother Lee’s Comment About Philip: During a troubling time, Brother Lee lacked normal human responses to the church and to many individuals, as the spiritual father of us all. However, he was quite attendant to his own family, to his own reputation, and to the protection and welfare of his own son, Philip Lee. His comment to Francis Ball and John Ingalls showed the state of unreality that he was in regarding his son and the poor choice he had made in making Philip the manager of LSM.

John Ingalls: The following week Brother Lee notified me of the annual meeting of the Board of Directors of the Living Stream Ministry. I had been a board member and the secretary of the corporation since its inception in 1968, and I still occupied these positions. The meeting was to take place at his home, Friday morning, July 15th. Present at the meeting were Brother Lee, Sister Lee, Philip Lee, Francis Ball, and myself, the five board members. Brother Lee as the president called the meeting to order and announced that the main purpose of the meeting was to elect officers for the coming year.

After the board meeting was adjourned, Sister Lee and Philip Lee left the room, and Brother Lee continued to talk at length with Francis Ball and myself about the current situation. I just listened, saying very little. He said how much he and Philip Lee and their families had suffered through all the talk about them. He then stated, “Philip, of course, is not perfect; nobody is perfect!” It shocked me that he would make such an inappropriate statement as that after all that had been said and done.

WL did nothing about his sons. Reminds me of old Eli in I Samuel. Actually WL did do something, he promoted his son Philip to "Office Manager," the 2nd in command, subjecting every worker, elder, and saint to his abuse. But hey, what's a little sexual abuse between friends. Nobody is perfect, you know.

Gymnastics Doctor Larry Nassar was not perfect either, and I'm sure his family suffered too! And by the way, Jerry Sandusky's family suffered too. Nasser and Sandusky, however, will finish their days in prison.

Who cares? Obviously WL cared nothing about the victims. Every time I read this, it makes me sick. WL had so many lieutenants who protected him, did his rotten bidding, and acted as ministry "hit men" to silence each and every whistleblower.

01-30-2018 10:22 AM

Ohio

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

In the immediate days after "the Max incident" of the late 70s, Witness Lee did a lot of rebuking of the LC members for not being "policemen" - in other words for not ratting on their brothers and sisters. (a practice that was no doubt established/encouraged at the beginnings of the LC movement by Watchman Nee, and continued by Lee.)

I thought the whole "policeman" talk was directed solely at Max. As the story went, it was the churches fault for not standing up to his abuses -- firing elders, sending all the young people to campus training centers, laying waste many LC's, etc.

Here WL proved himself the hypocrite. It was he alone who sent Max out to shake up the LC's. Had anyone like TC acted like a "policeman" and called WL, he would have been severely rebuked for not being "one with the ministry." Once again WL's winds and waves of "flows" came crashing down on innocent children of God, but he of course needed the perfect scapegoat -- Max! After it all died down, Lee came out smelling like a rose, and those who knew better were gone.

Most troubling to me was finally learning of Lee's underhanded methods on this forum. Instead of acting like a gentleman, acknowledging responsibility, he used the old Chinese custom of destroying your opponent by humiliating his wife before all the saints, claiming some secret "sisters rebellion" in the church. This occurred during the Memorial day Conference in Anaheim in 1977.

It was the same time that Benson Philips unloaded on a few Texas sisters as recorded in Jane Anderson's book Thread of Gold. Talk about a copycat crime!

01-30-2018 09:50 AM

Indiana

Re: Whistleblower Re: Max Rapoport

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

After I had read a book full of erroneous and misleading content about men and events & their motives and intentions during a tumultuous period in the churches, I decided to uncover the pertinent details left out of that book, The Fermentation of the Present Rebellion. / Philip Lee was a chaotic presence in the Local Churches which LSM and church leaders have never spoken about or put into print to show the major cause of division that he was.

from Deviating from the Path

Eyewitness Account of Philip Lee

Warren Peterson witness: Brother Warren Peterson was an eyewitness to the moral misconduct of Philip Lee and a sister at Living Stream in the late seventies that all the elders came to know about, as did Brother Lee. Philip denied the matter vehemently when an elder confronted him, but the sister confessed with many tears when elders came to her. At least one current elder in Anaheim knows this and former elders in Anaheim also know this, along with other saints, and they know the following account, as well, of what happened:

Warren said in an interview with me (2001) that he was working at the Anaheim meeting hall one night when brothers were putting a lot of time in on the Living Stream part of the building to get certain things done. He had been there all day and it was getting close to 10:00 P.M. when Brother Lee and Philip Lee approached him and Nolis Miller to ask if they could work longer. Neither brother wanted to stay but Warren did stay and was painting in a room adjoining the office where Philip (married) and a sister (married) were working. They obviously did not realize he was there, only 50 or 60 feet away, when they began to engage in mutually compromising immoral physical contact. Warren was dumbfounded as this went on for about ten to fifteen minutes. He finished what he was doing and went home, not knowing what to do about what he saw. The next day, a Saturday morning, he was determined to report the incident to an elder and did so. He reported the matter to Francis Ball who acknowledged that this was serious and informed Warren that he would bring it up with the elders that morning. Francis did that and then immediately got back to Warren, who was in the hall working with the maintenance bothers. The elders wanted to see him. He went to them, sat down, and opened to them about what he saw. They, of course, felt this was a very serious matter, one of them (Max Rapoport) stating, “we will get this cleared up, Warren. We can’t have this going on down there in the Living Stream; this will corrupt the church life.”

Max then went to Brother Lee, and upon hearing the report Brother Lee bowed his head and called on the Lord and said, “What shall we do?” Max said they had to do something and suggested that Philip leave Anaheim and go back to Taipei. Brother Lee did not agree with this idea. From that point, his word to the elders was that he would take care of his son. When the question was asked how he could take care of his son when he, Brother Lee, was at home sleeping while his son was still working late with a sister, the answer was the same; he would take care of his son. Although leading brothers and Brother Lee knew about the situation, no action was taken and the sister continued working with Philip at the Living Stream office.

Max Rapoport, wanting to get to the bottom of the story, took Philip to lunch and confronted him on the matter. Philip denied everything, nearly causing a fight in what Max described as a terrible scene in the restaurant. The elders then went to the sister to confront her on the matter and she immediately confessed that the story was true and broke down in tears. She was very sorry and expressed her remorse and repentance to the elders. It was the sister, eventually, not Philip, who was sent out of Anaheim, along with her husband and family, moving away to Texas.

Philip was allowed to continue in his position as manager at LSM for ten years when reports of his immoral behavior again came forth and the pattern of non-discipline was repeated.

01-30-2018 09:25 AM

UntoHim

Re: Whistleblower

In the immediate days after "the Max incident" of the late 70s, Witness Lee did a lot of rebuking of the LC members for not being "policemen" - in other words for not ratting on their brothers and sisters. (a practice that was no doubt established/encouraged at the beginnings of the LC movement by Watchman Nee, and continued by Lee.)

Of course when the tables were turned not many years later, and many brothers and sisters took up Lee's call to be "a policemen", these whistle blowers were labeled as traders, "negative" "rebellious" "touching God's anointed" "poisoned" "evil ones" and worse. The ones taking the lead to be policeman, such as John Ingalls and John So and were publicly excoriated by Witness Lee in the most vicious and unjust manner.

We now know that this "policeman" garbage was pulled by Witness Lee time and time again going back to the 1950's in Taiwan. We also now know that a number of the earlier American followers of Lee were made aware of these shenanigans in the early days in Los Angeles. They should have taken heed back then and took measures to protect themselves and the flock. They ended up paying a very high price for their negligence.
-

01-30-2018 07:25 AM

Nell

Whistleblower Re: Max Rapoport

CONSIDERING HOW TO BRING THE PROBLEMS BEFORE BROTHER LEE
October – November 1987

The grievous conduct reported by the sister from the LSM office had a precedent that we were well aware of. Ten years previously there had been reports of similar incidents in the LSM office confirmed by several eye-witnesses. This compounded the serious nature of the case.
…

During the next few days I telephoned several brothers, co-workers whom I respected and trusted and with whom I had served for many years. They were aware of the incidents ten years previously. …

What happened ten years prior in 1978? What is John talking about?

Before the information contained on the Bereans Forum "went away," I regularly downloaded the entire forum which contained the posts on the Local Church. The links to this Local Church section on Breans are broken, so I'm relying on what I downloaded years ago. This post has been cleaned up to remove graphic lines and superfluous html coding.

There are names in this post that appeared for years on the Bereans Forum, therefore I'm repeating them here.

Title: Max Rappaport’s ‘Rebellion’
Posts by: Nell on June 23-24, 2005, 01:52:14 PM
After a brother walked into the Living Stream office of Phillip Lee and caught him "in the act" with a married sister who was not his wife, the brother went to Max. Max went to WL and "rebelled". WL predictably "shot the messenger" and Max was hung out to dry. I think that might the one piece of information that could make a lot of things fall into place for you.

This is the nutshell account that I've heard from several sources, more than once, over many years. In the last few months, I was visiting in a home where one of the guests was the very brother who walked in on Phillip and the sister. It was interesting hearing from him on the subject.

Don Hardy walked in on Phillip Lee in a compromising position. My only documents indicated that it was Warren Peterson. She confirmed that there were actually two occasions where brothers walked in on Phillip Lee in the Living Stream Office.

The History of Philip Lee discussion appears on this forum.

From the information appearing in this thread, and other places, I think we have a picture of who the bad actors were/are and how the culture of sexual abuse in the Local Church and the Living Stream Ministry began and why it continues.

I've attached a copy of the article from the Los Angeles Times dated January 7, 1989 which briefly mentions Max near the end.

Again, we pray for all the young women who were abuse by wolves in sheep's clothing. We pray for their healing and real recovery.

To the present day sexual abusers in the Local Church we say, in addition to being a criminal, you are sick. You need help. Hiding behind the "cover the brothers" teaching of Witness Lee will not stand at the judgment seat of Christ. For your own sake, stop your sinful behavior. Repent to those you have abused and repent to the Body of Christ.

Nell

01-29-2018 02:21 PM

Nell

Re: Whistleblower

I heard this tape you mention, as well as JI spoke about it.

From John Ingalls, Speaking the Truth in Love

This is JI's account of the incident you described:

A VERY THREATENING INCIDENT
December 1987 – March 1988

In late December a brother in the church in Anaheim who had been severely damaged through the misconduct in LSM office was so traumatized psychologically that he sought revenge and took definite steps to execute a very grave act. (Thank God it never happened.)

Nell

01-29-2018 12:22 PM

Ohio

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

The next Lord’s Day morning, October 16th, the same group of saints who spoke on October 9th came again obviously to prolong their denunciations. Godfred stood at the beginning and spoke, begging them to desist and allow us to continue our study of Ephesians. They interrupted him frequently, and he patiently answered their questions. Then we proceeded to read some verses in Ephesians and in a tense atmosphere some bravely attempted to share from the Word. Eventually the saints who were intent on speaking more problematic things begin to take over the meeting with much turmoil, upon which Godfred stood and summarily dismissed the meeting. About sixty percent of those attending, including the elders, left the meeting, leaving about thirty or forty, who remained and had their own meeting.

In the Midwest back in the late 80's, tapes of this meeting were received, so all of us heard about "chaos" in Anaheim. For me personally, I was never told why or what was the reason for the "tense atmosphere." Of course, no one I knew had received John Ingalls' account of events.

The official word from Titus Chu to all the Midwest brothers was simple and twofold -- How dare John Ingalls and the elders in Anaheim let their meetings get out of hand and protest the leadership of "our brother" Lee. Secondly, Midwest brothers were all encouraged to write "shame on you" letters to these elders, and voice their support for Brother Lee.

In a total vacuum of facts, it all made sense. It wasn't until 2005 or 2006 that I learned from Ingalls' account STTIL that Titus Chu was well aware of Philip Lee's history of abuse and molesting sisters, and his actions could only be construed as political. So much for TC's governing principle: "the mistakes of my spiritual father [WL] are none of my business."

Every worthwhile principle in life must also be governed by proper boundaries. "Mistakes" are mistakes, not the coverup of criminal activities. For example, if your father is beating your mother, and you see it, then it is your business to take some action to protect her. American society is now rife with this exact same scenario because those who should have taken action decided it was "none of their business."

In WL's case, it was far worse than merely saying it was "none of my business." Over a long period of time, WL actively protected his degenerate sons Philip and Timothy, who should have been fired from LSM and arrested, and then WL went further to slander and libel the whistle blowers, whose only "crime" was to speak their conscience and stand up for the children of God. Let's not forget that it was the elders in Anaheim who actually stopped the husband of one of Philip's victims from getting a gun and killing him.

This story reminds me of the Congressional "Shush Fund" we have learned about in recent weeks, with payouts to silence the victims of sexual abuse. Not only was the ministry of WL no better than the numerous Christian ministries he long had condemned, but his own ministry was no different than what we see today in rotten politics.

01-29-2018 11:55 AM

Nell

Re: Whistleblower

01-29-2018 11:46 AM

TLFisher

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

"jurisdiction" changes at the whim of the elders or at the convenience of the elders.

Absolutely! Just like wind, jurisdiction can change at a moments notice. In one breath "it's a body matter" and in the next breath "it's a local matter". Whichever is politically beneficial for the brothers at that moment.

01-29-2018 11:35 AM

Nell

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Hypocrites!

They went to Whistler ski resort in BC, Canada to Quarantine Titus Chu and the Midwest.

They quarantined Dong Yu Lan from their LaPalma offices.

They play this "locality game" whenever it's convenient for them.

They later said that Philip Lee could not be disciplined by the Anaheim elders because he worked at LSM, and was not able to meet with the church there.

"Woe to you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside you are full of greed and self-indulgence." -- Mt 23.25

As you will see below, Philip Lee was excommunicated twice. The Anaheim Elders didn't "preside" over the meeting when Philip was excommunicated the first time. The church members did the deed without the elders.

Those in the Church in Anaheim who could no longer tolerate sexual sin in the camp are to be commended. There is another post on this forum regarding sexual abuse in the Local Church wherein the poster continues to say "Somebody needs to do something (about it)." Well, in 1988 somebody did something...the church.

The Storm Breaks
October 9, 16, 1988
...

The next Lord’s Day morning, October 16th, the same group of saints who spoke on October 9th came again obviously to prolong their denunciations. Godfred stood at the beginning and spoke, begging them to desist and allow us to continue our study of Ephesians. They interrupted him frequently, and he patiently answered their questions. Then we proceeded to read some verses in Ephesians and in a tense atmosphere some bravely attempted to share from the Word. Eventually the saints who were intent on speaking more problematic things begin to take over the meeting with much turmoil, upon which Godfred stood and summarily dismissed the meeting. About sixty percent of those attending, including the elders, left the meeting, leaving about thirty or forty, who remained and had their own meeting.

In our absence they stood and read 1 Corinthians 5 together, and took upon themselves to excommunicate a certain brother whom they believed to be guilty of gross misconduct. The elders had not done it so they did it. One of them then proceeded to tear up the announcements on the church bulletin board regarding the coming training and the Chinese Recovery Version, and threw in the trash some LSM books on display in the bookroom. This one called two days later and apologized for such unruly behavior, and we accepted the apology. Due to the chaotic condition we cancelled the evening meeting at the hall and met that night in homes.

...

EXERCISING DISCIPLINE UPON A BROTHER
November 6, 1988

During the months of September and October 1988 we had much consideration with all the elders in Anaheim regarding how to handle the problem of a certain brother and what action should be taken. It was a matter of serious misconduct on the part of the brother, and due to the ramifications of the affair Godfred, Al, and I, who were more familiar with the case, felt that church discipline should be exercised. Minoru and Philip, the other two elders, did not agree but said they would not try to stop this being done.

The date was eventually set for the Lord’s Day, November 6th. Minoru and Philip still dissented from the decision, but Godfred, Al, and I due to the serious nature of the problem, felt that we must go ahead to deal with it on the English-speaking side even without unanimity with the other two brothers on the Chinese-speaking side. The two brothers agreed to read our statements in the Chinese-speaking meeting, and then follow it with statements of their own dissenting from the action and explaining why. In the English-speaking side we would make our statement and follow it by reading the statements of Minoru and Philip.

Thus at the end of the Lord’s Day meeting, November 6th, Godfred stood and asked all the saints to read 1 Corinthians 5:6-11. He then said that in obedience to the Word of God we must ask all the saints not to associate with the brother being disciplined since we had sufficient evidence that he was such a one as described in 1 Corinthians 5:11. He then read statements by Minoru and Philip dissenting from the announcement. Of course it was a highly unusual step to take without the consensus of the brothers and indeed regrettable that all the elders could not concur in this matter. By this you may realize the situation among the elders and realize how strongly we felt about the matter.

After the meeting Godfred and I visited the wife of the disciplined brother and told her that this action did not apply to her or her children. She had come to the meeting in defiance of Godfred asking her not to come. She was greatly grieved, and we felt sorry for her.

01-29-2018 08:12 AM

Ohio

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

They argued that this affair was exclusively under the jurisdiction of the church in Anaheim, and they had no business being involved. We felt, as we mentioned earlier, that it was more than local, and that since that they were leaders in the LSM operation, they could be consulted. Some time later, however, I apologized to Benson and Ray for this, feeling that if they chose not to hear, we should not have forced the issue. -- John Ingalls

Note that when the Church in Houston "disciplined" Jane Anderson as she described in her book, Benson had no problem attending this "kangaroo court" from his "locality" which at the time was Dallas. I suppose this "affair" was not exclusively under the jurisdiction of the Church in Houston, and that "jurisdiction" changes at the whim of the elders or at the convenience of the elders. -- Nell

01-29-2018 07:38 AM

Nell

Re: Whistleblower

More from John Ingalls' Speaking the Truth in Love

ELDERS’ MEETINGS AND FELLOWSHIP WITH BROTHERS IN IRVING, TEXAS
December 1987

On Saturday afternoon, December 19th Ken Unger and I flew to Irving. I did not relate to him what the sister from the LSM office had just told us. On Monday, December 21st, we made an appointment to see Benson Phillips and Ray Graver in the morning. Having been intimate co-workers with them for many years, and knowing that they were aware of many things, we mentioned the concerns that we had presented to Brother Lee on December 12th, excluding the matter of the misconduct in the LSM office. We wanted especially to let them know how strongly we felt regarding the colossal mistake they had made in promoting and exalting the office and Philip Lee, starting in 1981. They said that they did not feel they had erred much. This really surprised and disappointed us. We tried to impress them how serious this matter was. They invited us out for dinner, and we decided to meet again in the afternoon to continue our fellowship.

Upon coming together we attempted amid protests to mention the matter of the misconduct in the LSM office. They steadfastly refused to hear about it, but we proceeded to speak. Ray Graver then quickly rose and exited the room. Benson (in whose home we were meeting) also rose to register his displeasure. We felt that they had knowledge relevant to the matter and wanted to confer with them about it. Benson admitted that the same sister from the LSM office (mentioned previously) had come to him in Taipei to disclose a related event, but he strongly protested our bringing this matter before them. They argued that this affair was exclusively under the jurisdiction of the church in Anaheim, and they had no business being involved. We felt, as we mentioned earlier, that it was more than local, and that since that they were leaders in the LSM operation, they could be consulted. Some time later, however, I apologized to Benson and Ray for this, feeling that if they chose not to hear, we should not have forced the issue.

Note that when the Church in Houston "disciplined" Jane Anderson as she described in her book, Benson had no problem attending this "kangaroo court" from his "locality" which at the time was Dallas. I suppose this "affair" was not exclusively under the jurisdiction of the Church in Houston, and that "jurisdiction" changes at the whim of the elders or at the convenience of the elders.

Nell

01-28-2018 03:38 PM

awareness

Re: What Lily Hsu portrays in her book

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indiana

Book: My Memories of Watchman Nee and the Shanghai Local Church

There's a thread on it here on LCD :
http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...ht=lily&page=4

01-28-2018 03:30 PM

awareness

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

Thanks Harold. If you still have that Don Hardy information you might consider posting it here.

Nell

I wouldn't without Don Hardy's permission. However, hit me in PM.

01-28-2018 01:49 PM

Indiana

Re: What Lily Hsu portrays in her book

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

Bless you Nell for bringing up this matter.

And you are right, sexual abuse should be reported.

Does it happen in the local church? Yes. Even the founder of the local church, Watchman Nee, admitted to sexual abuse, and rape of sisters. He spent 20 years in prison for that, and illegal business crimes.

Seems power and sexual abuse run together.

Anyway, it can happen anywhere, and by those no one would ever expect.

And it should be reported, no matter of position and power.

Thanks again Nell.

I hadn't known about Nee having a serious moral problem till I read Lily Hsu's book. You could feel her deep sentiment and heavy heart in addressing the tumult that had left the church badly shaken involving her brother in Christ, Watchman Nee, and two of her sisters in the Lord - in incidents she determined to share candidly, and carefully. I have never heard of, or experienced, such a devastating scene of disillusionment and sadness in the church as what Lily depicts and brings to light regarding both government and church judgment in an upheaval and exposure of their brother of high regard, Ni Tuosheng.

Book: My Memories of Watchman Nee and the Shanghai Local Church

The opening quote stunned me when I first read it, and unless I missed something about Nee's sentencing, i think the report could be meaningfully adjusted for accuracy's sake, if someone has enough confidence in what could be changed. (And what I have shared here, or will share, someone please adjust, if necessary, for even a small point or mis-impression on this, a most humanly sensitive subject, on a potentially volatile thread.)

01-28-2018 12:35 PM

Nell

Re: Whistleblower

Thanks Harold. If you still have that Don Hardy information you might consider posting it here.

Nell

01-28-2018 12:05 PM

awareness

Re: Whistleblower: History of Sexual Abuse in the Local Church

Good post and quotes Nell.

I'm nervous to even bring this up.

Don Hardy was very close with Witness Lee and his family. In a long list of emails he tells goings-on that would pop your eyeballs out, of all kinds on sexual goings-on at the top level of the LC.

Years ago I got a copy of them and wanted to share them with exLCers I'm still friends with. So I put them up on my domain, thinking to send the specific link to my friends, and not the whole WWW.

But that darn Google Spider found the page, so that they showed up if anyone searched for Don Hardy. And lo and behold brother Hardy found them. I was told I had to take them down.

And I did right away. Why? Because of fear of lawsuits by the Lee corporate system, and legal department, aka Defense and Confirmation Project, Inc - DCP.

The practice of suing their critics works to shut down the ugly truth of what really goes on at the top levels of the LC.

The practice of covering up sexual abuse, like what we see with the pedophile priest in the RCC, to protect the image and reputation of the institution, happens also in the local church.

So sister Nell, the information you shared from Speaking the Truth in Love, by John Ingalls, who was also close with the top inner circle, has been covered up in the local church, just as Don Hardy's revelations of the inner goings-on is covered up. And, btw, Lily Hsu's book, "My Unforgettable Memories - Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church," that reveals the sexual infractions by Nee, is also hidden from those in the local church.

Maybe that's because they know, "the truth shall set you free." Like it did to the very close co-workers of Witness Lee, when Lee and Co. was covering up Philip Lee ... and btw, the cover up of Lee's other son, Timothy Lee. His sexual infractions, with married sisters, is hardly mentioned anywhere. Hardy tells of them, because he caught Tim with is wife - now ex-wife. And Witness knew of it for 9 years, and told Hardy's wife to keep it secret.

If you ask me, Lee brought Nee's ministry to America, and Lee's sons brought Nee's sexual practices to America. Even tho it was known to at least 2500 in Shanghai, when Nee confessed, Witness Lee covered that up too.

Some "Recovery" that is.

Thanks again Nell.

Harold

01-27-2018 04:51 PM

Nell

Re: Whistleblower: History of Sexual Abuse in the Local Church

History of Sexual Abuse in the Local Church

This is the earliest instance of sexual immorality, known to me, in the Local Church. Watchman Nee's immorality was not made public until the last few years. Witness Lee's son, Philip was a predator and was reported by the sister in "the office" to John Ingalls as described below. The events that followed resulted in a disaster in the Church in Anaheim which included the excommunication of Philip Lee. In another instance, a brother walked in on Philip and a sister in "the office." The brother was devastated and reported what he saw to Max Rapoport.

In the cases I will bring to the forefront, Witness Lee's solution was a coverup. We can also surmise that the situation continues today because of Lee's disastrous failures.

I have heard stories about sexual immorality in the Local Churches for years. Some of you have probably heard stories as well.

Below are excerpts from Speaking the Truth in Love by John Ingalls which is posted on this forum here where the elders attempted to reason with Lee on the seriousness of his son's behavior and the need to deal with his son. I also have a copy of this story which was reported in the Los Angeles Times.

John Ingalls (deceased) and Godfred Otuteye were elders in the Church in Anaheim at the time.

A SHOCKING DEVELOPMENT
September 1987

On the following Tuesday, Sept. 29th, Godfred (Otuteye – O two tay) left for a business trip to Europe. On the next day, Wednesday, Sept. 30th, I received a telephone call from a sister who had a prominent position in the Living Stream Ministry Office, asking if she could see me that night. I consented. That evening she sat in my living room and with tears opened her heart to me. She had served sacrificially and faithfully for many years in the LSM office, and now she said she could not tolerate anymore the gross misconduct that was being perpetrated upon some and especially upon her. I had been acquainted with this sister for many years and knew her to be faithful, upright, and trustworthy; therefore, I took her word very seriously. I was amazed that she could put up with such conduct for so long. She stated that she tolerated it only for the sake of Brother Lee and his ministry. She said that she had no other recourse but to resign. I confirmed her intention.

That conversation utterly shocked me. I deeply felt that something must be done to acquaint Brother Lee with the situation and to let him know that we would not tolerate it. I obtained Godfred’s telephone number in Europe and called him a soon as the difference in time zones permitted, telling him the things that had come to my ears. Godfred listened and said that he already knew it. I was amazed. That night I considered what could be done. That we had to go to Brother Lee I was certain.
...

PART TWO
ANOTHER SHOCKING DEVELOPMENT
December 19,1987

In the morning of December 19, just before Ken and I were to leave for Texas that afternoon, the sister from the LSM office who had spoken to me on September 30th (see page 10) called and asked to speak to Godfred and me. We met with her and were utterly amazed at what we heard. She began to relate to us in detail some of the things she suffered while in the service of the LSM office. She wanted us to realize how grave the problem was. We were revulsed to the depths of our being, and when the conversation ended and we parted, we so full of abhorrent feelings that we were literally in a daze.

Godfred drove me to the airport to meet Ken. We were in a state of shock and utter disgust. All this had taken place in what we called the Lord’s recovery! We felt that Benson Phillips and Ray Graver, who were deeply involved in the LSM operation, must surely know something of these matters. Therefore, we resolved to confer with them about this when we got to Irving.

...

At this time Witness Lee could have put a leash on his son Philip but he did not.

More to come.

Nell

01-26-2018 04:14 PM

awareness

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

Sexual abuse is a crime. Ask the Roman Catholic Church. Ask Penn State University, ask Jerry Sandusky. Ask Harvey Weinstein. Watch the news.

Sexual abuse is a police matter and should be reported.

Bless you Nell for bringing up this matter.

And you are right, sexual abuse should be reported.

Does it happen in the local church? Yes. Even the founder of the local church, Watchman Nee (Ni Tuosheng), admitted to sexual abuse, and rape of sisters. He spent 20 years in prison for that, and illegal business crimes.

Seems power and sexual abuse run together.

Anyway, it can happen anywhere, and by those no one would ever expect.

And it should be reported, no matter of position and power.

Thanks again Nell.

01-26-2018 07:30 AM

Nell

Re: Whistleblower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Thanks for sharing this Nell.

"Blessed are those who have suffered for righteousness sake ..."

Ohio, you're welcome.

I will say that my suffering during my ordeal was temporary. I recovered, found a new and better job and I rarely think of this experience. What I can take away from the experience is that God loves me and cares for me like none other. Also, it's important to tell the truth.

From what I can see, those who experienced sexual abuse in the Local Church (or any other place) as young women cannot yet say "I recovered." Sexual abuse and/or assault happens to your body. It happens to your soul. It takes something away that can never be regained. I pray for these young women who have posted their experiences and commend them for their bravery.

As to the criminals who perpetrated these crimes against young women, their sisters in Christ perhaps, I do not have the assurance that these Local Church men are in fact brothers. I pose this question because, as the scriptures say, "by their fruit you shall know them."

This criminal behavior, sexual sin, is the fruit of the ministry of Witness Lee. Lee's own son was a sexual predator. WL knew this and did nothing about it. Well...except banish those who exposed Phillip's sinful behavior--in the Living Stream office no less.

Nell

01-25-2018 07:52 AM

Ohio

Re: Whistleblower

Thanks for sharing this Nell.

"Blessed are those who have suffered for righteousness sake ..."

01-25-2018 07:17 AM

Nell

Whistleblower

Sexual abuse is a crime. Ask the Roman Catholic Church. Ask Penn State University, ask Jerry Sandusky. Ask Harvey Weinstein. Watch the news.

Sexual abuse is a police matter and should be reported. It's called blowing the whistle, saying NO MORE. There is NO spiritual justification for sexual abuse.

While I have not been a victim of sexual abuse, I have been a "whistleblower" in the workplace. My coworkers and I were exposed to criminal behavior in a government agency on the part of our direct supervisor. We contacted the FBI because we did not trust the Inspector General's office for that agency. The FBI contacted the US Secret Service who, in turn, brought in the IG that we didn't trust. This created "oversight" of the entire process. We reported the crime, because it is also a crime to have knowledge of, but not report criminal behavior to the authorities.

If you choose to become a whistleblower in any environment, bring in an outside advocate. (We brought in the FBI.) If you choose to report sexual abuse in the Local Church, don't report it internally. Because of the intensely closed Local Church culture, you don't know who you can trust. Get a lawyer, then go to the police.

This was not easy for my coworkers and I. There was a price. The stress was enormous. I eventually was terribly humiliated when I was unjustly fired from my job. All of my coworkers who reported the crime lost their jobs. Regardless, the Lord was with me and I had some amazing experiences of his love and care for me. I told the truth and was greatly blessed for doing so. Still, it wasn't easy. I told my story on a TV interview, as did another of my coworkers. But we all paid a high price. I could never again apply for a job and check the box "Have you ever been fired from a job?" with a "NO." But there was also a price for the criminals in my office. One of my coworkers, under direction of the Secret Service, "wore a wire" to gather evidence. The criminal actually tried to recruit my coworker on this wire tap, to join their criminal activity.

There was a "raid" on my office. The criminals were removed. Their homes were searched. They confessed to their crime and lost their jobs. They can never again work for a government agency. They bargained for "deferred adjudication" and avoided going to prison and a criminal felony record.

I'm telling you this to say that I'm not just preaching about reporting a crime with no experience. I'm a whistleblower myself. Federal laws were changed after my coworkers and I became whistleblowers. We actually gained the direct support of a member of the U.S. Senate.

You will notice that I keep saying "my coworkers and I." We did what we did together. I don't think I could have done this alone. The Local Church is not above the law. In this #METOO climate, when you report your assault to the police, it will not be swept under the massive Local Church rug.

I would not tell anyone what to do, but I would like to encourage those who were abused in the Local Churches to consider their options today. Think about the others who come after you. Pray about it. If you would like to talk further, PM me and we could perhaps even discuss further on the "sisters only" forum.

If you are an abuser in the Local Church, or have knowledge of abuse, you are a criminal. You are not a participant in "God's best" but "the devil's worst." You have an obligation to your victims and to the Body of Christ to stop your sin, repent to your Lord and Savior, repent to your victims, repent to the church and to make restitution to your victims and rid the church of this heinous crime and this shame to the Lord's name.

Blessings to you all--

Nell