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| 03-05-2009 03:20 AM | ||
| Indiana |
Re: What Deputy Authority is Not LEE: Those of us who were in Los Angeles from 1963 to 1973 can recall that we were with one accord and with one mouth. Whoever came to a meeting in those years could sense and realize the impact. Because there was no dissenting or different opinion, there was the impact. www.twoturmoils.com/OneAccord.pdf |
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| 03-02-2009 09:25 PM | ||
| Indiana |
Re: Establishing One's Own Kingdom Another sign offered by DCP that one does not have spiritual authority, or that he has lost it. www.twoturmoils.com/ForumKingdom.pdf |
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| 03-02-2009 05:58 PM | ||
| TLFisher |
Re: Emphasis on "success" and numbers in new way Quote:
Terry |
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| 03-02-2009 10:11 AM | ||
| Indiana |
Re: Emphasis on "success" and numbers in new way John So Talk in Manila 1990 The Care for the Church New Way as a Rolls Royce Jim Batten said further that I considered the new way as a Rolls Royce. Yes, that’s right, I did. I think that must have been in 1987 sometime. Brother Lee said in [The Fermentation of the Present Rebellion] “John So said to a brother in England that it was better to have one’s own body than to have a Rolls Royce.” I will explain what I meant. I had gone back to Europe and found that Blackpool, England was fully destroyed. It was fully destroyed to the ground through the establishing of the LSM office there. And at that time nobody was caring for the church in Blackpool, for those poor brothers in Blackpool. And there they were door knocking and boasting how many thousands got baptized in California. If brother Jim Batten would be honest before the Lord, and I have witnesses there. Eddie Wong was there. Some other brothers were there. I was very considerate of Jim Batten. And I had no intention to convince him of anything. In fact, I explained to him, I said, “Brother, go and door knock. That’s fine. That’s good. But do not forget about our brothers who are in much trouble in Blackpool. Please take care also of these brothers in Blackpool.” And I just made an illustration and asked, “what is more important -- a Rolls Royce or a man’s body.” I likened the new way to a Roll’s Royce and the church to man’s body. A best car, you know, is a Rolls Royce. I didn’t compare the new way with a Volkswagon or a Fiat or a Manila jeepney. I compared it to a Rolls Royce. My goodness, what is better than a Rolls Royce, right? Don’t you want to have a Rolls Royce? But, I said, “No matter how good it is, your body, your health, is more important.” I encouraged him, therefore, to take care of the church, along with his care for the new way. My! You are criticizing the new way! Brothers, let us be logical. Don’t believe in such a way that you become superstitious. Just anything that doesn’t sound like you are for it, people say you are blowing cold wind. “You said the new way is a Rolls Royce.” What should I say? A chariot, a heavenly chariot? Okay, I can say it. You know Elijah went with a heavenly chariot of fire and is gone. Okay. If you think that is better than a Rolls Royce, well, compare it. This is not the way. Really, brothers, this is not the way. Let us be normal. Let’s be able to talk in a normal way. “My, that is something fermenting in John So.” Oh my, you see, a testimony is written here to prove that I am rebelling. Rebellion is fermenting in me. Our brother Na Ning said that you’re not the jury. I’m going to consider you tonight as the jury. Whether you like it or not, Na Ning, I’m going to consider you as a jury, and I’m not afraid to be judged by you here. One day I’m going to be judged by the Lord anyway. And, let’s bring this book to the Lord, and let Him judge. Just by this alone they want to prove that rebellion and conspiracy was fermenting within me. I don’t like to talk about these things—the Lord knows. I had a hard time preparing this crazy thing. Anyway, anyway, at least, I hope they will correct the mistake. Maybe they will find other witnesses that are correct. Okay. They can always put another piece of paper into the book and say, “Correction, that witness is wrong.” Otherwise, you should write in here, “With false testimonies; maybe it’s a misprint.” |
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| 03-01-2009 09:44 PM | ||
| Indiana |
Re: What Deputy Authority is Not Statistics Manipulated from John So in Manila, 1990, following his quarantine I wasn’t opposing and I didn’t have anything fermenting within me. I’m sorry to say, dear saints, I think there was a plot, a conspiracy, there in Taipei, not on our part, but on somebody else’s part, to bring the churches in Europe and myself under a certain leading - under the hidden function of the office. That, I must confess, I cannot fully agree with. But that doesn’t mean that if I don’t agree, I oppose. I went to Taipei. I joined the door knocking. Okay, I enjoyed it. You might not believe me, but I really enjoyed it. In fact, I fully submitted to the group. You can ask my group leaders. And, I baptized a few people, really. And I was quite fond of that whole group. But when I was there, listen, one major leading brother in Taipei every time he saw me, he told me that the statistics were manipulated. That’s the word I think he used. I said, “Are you sure brother?” He said, “Yes.” I said, “Why then don’t you go and see Witness Lee? If it’s manipulated, you have to tell Witness Lee.” He told me, “It’s very hard to see him. I tried several times, but I can’t get through.” So, that made me a little concerned. Of course, I’m not a piece of wood, brothers; I’m a brother, right? I’m not only a person, I’m serving the Lord. If it was really so that the statistics were being manipulated, I’m concerned. Don’t say I’m criticizing—I’m concerned. Well, I went one time to see brother Jim Batten. I love him. He is a very fine young man; I’m really very fond of this brother. I went to him. Of course, I shared with him a little bit of my concern. Brother, wouldn’t you share your concern to hear such a thing from a major leading brother in Taipei here? My goodness, and if we are manipulating the numbers of those who are saved and baptized, and nobody dares to say anything, my, your work must be a super, super, super, super work. Let me turn to page 40 and also page 139 in the book, [The Fermentation], brother Jim Batten’s testimony is here. I just want to show you what was said. |
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| 03-01-2009 04:15 PM | ||
| TLFisher |
Re: Emphasis on Numbers and Success Quote:
About four years ago I read an article of John So's speaking in Manila. One aspect that troubled John So during late eighties, was not only the emphasis on numbers, but the manipulation of numbers to make it appear as if the New Way was a success. What was really important about the New Way? Was it bringing people to receive Jesus Christ as their savior, or was it to bring people to salvation and remain meeting in the local churches? If the purpose was to bring people to receive the Lord, the New Way served its need. Terry |
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| 03-01-2009 11:34 AM | ||
| Indiana |
Re: Emphasis on Numbers and Success When the elders in Southern California came together and opened to one another about the real situation in their churches, Brother Lee showed little interest that serious problems were taking a toll on the members and on the elders. He did show much concern though for the progress of LSM and fully expected elders to submit to his objectives, without showing regard for their feeling. John Ingalls – On the evening of Monday, December 14, 1987, Brother Lee called a meeting of the elders of Southern California. There was a fair number there representing most of the churches in the area. After prayer, Brother Lee opened the fellowship by giving a long word concerning the new way and its great success in Taiwan. Then he asked for fellowship from the brothers, desiring especially to know how successful the new way had been in their locality. Dick Taylor, an elder in Long Beach, started with a lively, full-of enjoyment kind of testimony, such as Dick is well-known for, thanking the Lord for the door-knocking and the Gospel preaching in Long Beach, but ending with an honest word about the depression and the discouragement among some of the saints. This was unusual for Dick but he was telling it like it was. Other brothers followed who also spoke very honestly about dissensions concerning the new way and discouragement among the saints in their localities, for which they were very concerned. In some places divisions had arisen over the new way. John Smith, an elder in San Diego, ended the time of sharing with an honest account of his concerns for the saints in his church, mentioning how he feared that with the overemphasis on methods, numbers, and increase the saints would become activity-centered instead of Christ-centered. What was extraordinary was the elders speaking up in such an honest and forthright way, knowing that such reports were not what Brother Lee liked or wanted to hear. We were not accustomed to doing this due partly to a sense of intimidation. To my knowledge this was the first time that had been done. This was encouraging. But Brother Lee was visibly bothered, and later reacted strongly to the brothers’ speaking, saying of one brother’s sharing (John Smith’s) that it was like pouring iced water on him. We were not the only ones who went to Brother Lee with our concerns during these days. We heard that Dan Towle, individually, and Frank Scavo together with Dick Taylor also went to see Brother Lee to express to him their concerns about the present situation. (p. 103) Witness Lee commented on the same meeting: "Before I went to Irving in December 1987, I had an elders’ meeting with the leading ones in Southern California. During that meeting, John Smith stood up to say that numbers do not represent anything, and he went on to mention things such as statistics, budgets, work, and activity. By that time Rosemead had already rebelled, and this kind of speaking was a repetition of what was spoken there as accusations. By listening to all the sharing in that elders’ meeting in Orange County, I realized that the whole situation had been poisoned by John Ingalls.” (p. 59, FPR). This was Brother Lee’s reaction to brothers who shared from their heart about serious problems in their localities. He gave the impression that his own objectives were more important than listening to the Body and to the concerns of responsible elders for their localities. These speakings by Dick Taylor, John Smith, and others were from their own experience and had not been influenced by John Ingalls. |
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| 02-28-2009 04:40 PM | ||
| Indiana |
Re: The Sign of Emphasizing Success Another Important Sign www.twoturmoils.com/SignofEmphasizingSuccess.pdf |
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| 02-27-2009 06:40 PM | ||
| TLFisher |
Re: What Deputy Authority is Not Other than saying Andrew Yu's writing was taken out of context, how can blended brothers and blended co-workers refute what the article is about? Here are the major points Steve wrote what a deputy authority is not: 1. Asserting One's Own Authority 2. Practicing Self-Vindication 3. Bearing False Witness 4. Misrepresenting God 5. Mishandling financial matters Terry |
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| 02-27-2009 02:44 AM | ||
| Indiana |
What Deputy Authority is Not www.twoturmoils.com/WhatDeputyAuthorityisNot.pdf The purpose of this writing is to show what authentic spiritual authority is not, rather than to talk much about what it is. For, once we see what it is not; we are in a much better position to clearly understand, and appreciate, what genuine spiritual authority is. Nearing the end of the late eighties turmoil in the local churches, Andrew Yu wrote a book to explain what deputy authority is. In its most basic definition, a deputy authority of God is one who represents God; and he exercises God’s authority among men, according to God’s own thought and by His own action. In the first two chapters of Yu’s book, he points to the Scriptures that reveal examples of deputy authority and teachings on the subject. Then in the third and final chapter, he ascribes blame in the most severe fashion imaginable on former leaders for their alleged rebellion against Witness Lee, long-recognized in the local churches as a deputy authority of God, and God’s oracle on the earth. In an atmosphere of clouds and chaos in the mid to late eighties, Yu formed his opinions... |
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