| 07-08-2014 01:48 AM |
| InChristAlone |
Re: Response to InChristAlone
Terry, Unregistered Guest, thank you.
Blessings,
ICA
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| 07-07-2014 05:17 PM |
| Unregistered |
Re: Response to InChristAlone
ICA, "They run round like a squirrel in a cage but the system doesn’t lead them anywhere. ", your observation is accurate.
You mentioned your wife... etc.,. ICA love the Lord your God and love your neighbor. Your first immediate neighbor is your wife, and it is the word of God 'love your wife'.
You know what to do.
Grace from our Lord to you.
.
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| 07-07-2014 11:58 AM |
| TLFisher |
Re: Response to InChristAlone
Quote:
Originally Posted by InChristAlone
I look at myself, my wife, my relatives and other saints in the LRC. The system killed our spiritual growth. We don’t love God and our neighbors more than we love our pets. However, we struggle to be perfected by knowledge, "living the proper church life". At the end of the day, we have more knowledge than love. But what is more useful: the former or the latter? If we want to enter the kingdom of God, do we need more love or more information? Do we need a plan of the New Jerusalem or a key that opens its gates?
I believe communion with God is only possible if love dwells in our hearts. Through Jesus Christ in the Holy Spirit, man comes to living communion with God the Father. There is no other meaning and purpose to the Church and to life itself. But where is Christ in WL’s message? Where is love in Morning Revival and Crystallization Study? They are full of information about God’s economy, oneness, and the New Jerusalem, but does it matter? If Christ and His love don’t live in our hearts, then all man’s doctrines are no use. What is easier: to live “the proper church life” or “love thy neighbor as thyself”? I think you know the answer. And that’s why I want a change. I want to follow Christ, not Witness Lee because I see the difference. I want the key, not the map. Otherwise, when the Lord comes to separate the sheep from the goats, I am afraid we will belong to the latter. (Matthew 25:31-46)
FaithInChrist, that was my personal experience with the LRC. Your experience can be different. Anyway, I believe you are a good personality and I am sure you are a good Christian. May the Lord bless and guide you. |
Thanks for the links InChristAlone. It is difficult for many brothers and sisters when there's the absence of grace. I have come to know grace as an expression of love. When you love brothers and sisters, there's grace. When a brother or sister decides to stop meeting, if you love them grace will be given.
Instead of grace being a characteristic of the recovery, we have witnessed through the decades brothers being maligned after their leaving. There is no expression of love and no expression of grace.
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| 07-07-2014 09:26 AM |
| aron |
Re: Response to InChristAlone
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio
Those defending the Recovery will always proclaim that only they are truly "one," while never owning up to all the divisions which have spun off from her.
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And if you go to an LRC meeting and pray, "Lord, we ask for the churches and the saints", and you only mean the churches that are "on the ground" and likewise the "recovered" saints, then what are you praying for? Didn't Jesus even teach to pray for those who persecute us? In the LRC churches they can't even pray for the supposedly degraded Christian saints and assemblies, much less the ones who are actually persecuting them. Praying for, and caring for, any "others" would be a waste of their time and attention, because they are for those who are similarly "sold out" for the LRC cause. That's about the narrowest form of oneness that I can imagine.
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| 07-07-2014 07:13 AM |
| InChristAlone |
Re: Response to InChristAlone
Quote:
Originally Posted by aron
Witness Lee would create a "straw man" argument and then react against it. But he was just reacting to his own imagination. And thus his will was not pure. His intention was distorted, and corrupted. Lee would tell us about "Christendom" and "Christianity" and then hold forth his supposedly pure alternative. But it was an alternative to a figment of his imagination.
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Aron, I agree with you.
Unfortunately, Witness Lee's imagination was not limited by his views on Christianity. What about these statements:
Quote:
“...the entire Godhead, the Triune God, became flesh.”26
“The Father was expressed among men in the Son, and the Son became the Spirit to come into men. The Father is in the Son, and the Son became the Spirit.”27
“...the Lord Christ is the Spirit and the Spirit is the Lord Christ....”28
“The Father is not only the Father, but is also the Son.”29
“...God the Father is also the Spirit (John 4:24). Hence, all three Persons of the Godhead are the Spirit.”30
“...the Lord Jesus who is the Son is also the Eternal Father.”31
26. Witness Lee, God’s New Testament Economy, fifth printing, 2002 (Anaheim, CA: Living Stream Ministry, 1986), p. 230 (emphasis added).
27. Ibid., p. 9 (emphasis added).
28. The New Testament Recovery Version, note 18-11, third printing, 2001 (Anaheim, CA: Living Stream Ministry, 1991), p. 775.
29. Witness Lee, The Economy of God, seventh printing, 1997 (Anaheim, CA: Living Stream Ministry, 1968), p. 47.
30. Ibid., p. 14.
31. Witness Lee, Concerning the Triune God, third edition, 1994 (Anaheim, CA: Living Stream Ministry, 1973), p. 19.
http://static.harvesthousepublishers..._Lawsuit_3.pdf
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No wonder the LRC lost its lawsuit against Harvest House Publishers and the authors of the Encyclopedia of Cults and New Religions. Wish members of the Lord's Recovery church knew more about the lawsuit and the reasons why their organisation lost the case.
Corporate statements of Harvest House:
http://harvesthousepublishers.com/corporate-statements/
Questions and Answers about The Local Church’s Lawsuit Against Harvest House Publishers and Authors John Ankerberg and John Weldon
http://static.harvesthousepublishers..._Lawsuit_3.pdf
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| 07-07-2014 07:12 AM |
| Ohio |
Re: Response to InChristAlone
Quote:
Originally Posted by aron
"The Lord is not building His church in Christendom, which is composed of the apostate Roman Catholic Church and the Protestant denominations. This prophecy is being fulfilled through the Lord's recovery, in which the building of the genuine church is being accomplished."
Look at that quote: no mention of the Eastern Orthodox churches, mainly the Russian and Greek. No mention of the Syrian or Egyptian believers. No mention of the Abyssinian (Ethiopian) Orthodox church, which was arguably founded in the pages of the book of Acts and has been there holding forth the testimony of Jesus ever since.
Witness Lee would create a "straw man" argument and then react against it. But he was just reacting to his own imagination. And thus his will was not pure. His intention was distorted, and corrupted. Lee would tell us about "Christendom" and "Christianity" and then hold forth his supposedly pure alternative. But it was an alternative to a figment of his imagination.
And as anyone who tried to follow him can attest, if you uncritically received his imagination as if it were real, and substantive, then you were subject to all the vagarities of this same fallen imagination. Various "flows' and "moves" ensued; how very apt as descriptions; how about also being "buffeted by winds" of Lee's imagination?
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Once we can prove that Lee's "pure" alternative, aka The Recovery and the Living Stream Ministry, was anything but pure, and required endless quarantines to smear the reputations of the prophets God sent to them, then we must also realize that Christianity is not as hopeless and helpless as we were taught by Lee.
Within the "greater" body of Christ, composed of all God's children, the Lord is building His church. One cannot see this unless they have the eyes of faith.
Those defending the Recovery will always use the excuse that "nobody's perfect," while never allowing the same excuse to be used by Christianity. Those defending the Recovery will always proclaim that only they are trule "one," while never owning up to all the divisions which have spun off from her.
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| 07-07-2014 05:29 AM |
| aron |
Re: Response to InChristAlone
"The Lord is not building His church in Christendom, which is composed of the apostate Roman Catholic Church and the Protestant denominations. This prophecy is being fulfilled through the Lord's recovery, in which the building of the genuine church is being accomplished."
Look at that quote: no mention of the Eastern Orthodox churches, mainly the Russian and Greek. No mention of the Syrian or Egyptian believers. No mention of the Abyssinian (Ethiopian) Orthodox church, which was arguably founded in the pages of the book of Acts and has been there holding forth the testimony of Jesus ever since.
Witness Lee would create a "straw man" argument and then react against it. But he was just reacting to his own imagination. And thus his will was not pure. His intention was distorted, and corrupted. Lee would tell us about "Christendom" and "Christianity" and then hold forth his supposedly pure alternative. But it was an alternative to a figment of his imagination.
And as anyone who tried to follow him can attest, if you uncritically received his imagination as if it were real, and substantive, then you were subject to all the vagarities of this same fallen imagination. Various "flows' and "moves" ensued; how very apt as descriptions; how about also being "buffeted by winds" of Lee's imagination?
I also am arguably creating a "straw man Lee" here, to some extent, and likewise reacting. I do this to separate my thinking from Lee's culture just as he did to his Methodist cultural upbringing. But in my defense, I at least recognize that and admit it. I do not pretend to be pure. I am just trying to get away from Lee's ideas. As I've mentioned in the thread on "The Asian mind and the Western mind", I find them to be culturally derived and rather obstructive to the spirit of the Bible, as I see it. So I knock Lee's ideas around and throw them into the dust, where I think they belong. Please forgive me if such a violent spirit is off-putting, but I'm vociferously rejecting something that once had taken deep root within. So it's kind of "noisy" coming out -- something like the child who cried out, rolling and flailing in the dirt, when the impure spirit was ejected. Sorry; it's not a pretty sight, I know.
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| 07-07-2014 04:24 AM |
| InChristAlone |
Re: Response to InChristAlone
Some food for mind:
A comparison of WL's doctrines with Christian doctrines:
http://www.bcbsr.com/topics/lc.html
Why the Local Church was included in the Encyclopedia of Cults and New Religions
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/379-...-new-religions
http://static.harvesthousepublishers..._Lawsuit_3.pdf
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| 07-07-2014 04:00 AM |
| InChristAlone |
Re: Response to InChristAlone
FaithInChrist, thank you for your kind reply. I am glad to hear from you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FaithInChrist
I do not believe that it's the only genuine Christian church.
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Then you disagree with Witless Lee, Ron Kangas, and other leaders of the LC.
Quote:
"The Lord is not building His church in Christendom, which is composed of the apostate Roman Catholic Church and the Protestant denominations. This prophecy is being fulfilled through the Lord's recovery, in which the building of the genuine church is being accomplished."
Witness Lee in The New Testament Recovery Version,
note 184 (Matthew 16:18)
(Anaheim: Living Stream Ministry, 1991), p. 99
http://online.recoveryversion.org/Fo...asp?FNtsID=639
"I am afraid that a number of us are still under the negative influence of Christendom. We all have to realize that today the Lord is going on and on to fully recover us and bring us fully out of Christendom."
Witness Lee, The History of the Church and the Local Churches
(Anaheim: Living Stream Ministry, 1991), p. 132
"In every denomination, including the Roman Catholic Church, there are real, saved Christians. They are God's people belonging to the Lord. But the organization of the denominations in which they are is not of God. The denominational organizations have been utilized by Satan to set up his satanic system to destroy God's economy of the proper church life."
Witness Lee, "Message Thirty-Four" in The Life-Study of Genesis
(Anaheim: Living Stream Ministry, 1987), Vol. 1, p. 464
http://www.open-letter.org
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Brother Ron Kangas about the LRC and Christianity:
Quote:
"The Lord’s recovery is not a part of Christianity"—Ron Kangas, Senior Editor and Director of Living Stream Ministry (LSM)
"If there are any bridges…between a local church and Christianity, I hope that we would go back, burn the bridges and broaden the gap."—Ron Kangas
"It is impossible for there to be any reconciliation between the recovery and Christianity."—Ron Kangas
http://www.blendedbody.com/AAA-Perso...ristianity.htm
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Here is one more WL's quote:
Quote:
"The great Babylon is fallen. We do not care for Christianity, we do not care for Christendom, we do not care for the Roman Catholic church, and we do not care for all the denominations, because in the Bible it says that the great Babylon is fallen. This is a declaration. Christianity is fallen, Christendom is fallen, Catholicism is fallen, and all the denominations are fallen. Hallelujah!"Witness Lee, The Seven Spirits for the Local Churches
(Anaheim: Living Stream Ministry, 1989), p. 97
http://www.open-letter.org/
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If "Christianity is fallen" and "the prophecy is being fulfilled through the Lord's recovery", then the LRC is the only genuine church. It’s not just my conclusion. It’s a statement made by leaders of the LRC. I heard the statement from brother Ron Kangas at a conference. He clearly said that the LRC is the only genuine church. It was "us" against "them" mentality, typical for any cult or sect. That was a turning point that made me ponder over the LRC, her nature, doctrines, and practices. Then I found this forum and it was an eye-opener.
When you are deep inside the LRC, it’s like a dream and you can hardly realize that you are dreaming. You can know all the facts but not realize what they mean. For example, now I am confident that the LRC substitutes the word of God (the Holy Bible) for the word of man (WL and his books). I am almost sure that you will disagree with me. However, if in the morning, you read Morning Revival instead of the Bible, then that may tell you something.
Open any HWMR and see how many Bible verses it contains. Then compare any page from the Gospels with any page from Morning Revival. Where do you see Christ and His message? If you say that nothing compares to the Gospels, then check this: Do messages of Morning Revival have anything to do with Christ's message from the Gospels? 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself'. How often do you hear these words in the Local Church? This is the high-peak truth for every Christian and there is nothing higher than that. But WL went further. He replaced Christ's message with his own “recovery” message.
WL created a system that substitutes spiritual life (life in and with Christ) for "proper church life" (life in and with WL’s doctrines). He didn’t need spiritual giants, saints who bear the fruits of the Holy Spirit. He needed obedient followers who would strive for the unreachable. Saints eagerly “exercise their spirit”, struggling to have oneness, build the church, and reach the New Jerusalem. What is the use of it? They run round like a squirrel in a cage but the system doesn’t lead them anywhere. WL’s books, LRC meetings, and conferences are not drawing them closer to Christ. The problem is that “the high-peak truth” of WL and the message of Christ are not the same.
I look at myself, my wife, my relatives and other saints in the LRC. The system killed our spiritual growth. We don’t love God and our neighbors more than we love our pets. However, we struggle to be perfected by knowledge, "living the proper church life". At the end of the day, we have more knowledge than love. But what is more useful: the former or the latter? If we want to enter the kingdom of God, do we need more love or more information? Do we need a plan of the New Jerusalem or a key that opens its gates?
I believe communion with God is only possible if love dwells in our hearts. Through Jesus Christ in the Holy Spirit, man comes to living communion with God the Father. There is no other meaning and purpose to the Church and to life itself. But where is Christ in WL’s message? Where is love in Morning Revival and Crystallization Study? They are full of information about God’s economy, oneness, and the New Jerusalem, but does it matter? If Christ and His love don’t live in our hearts, then all man’s doctrines are no use. What is easier: to live “the proper church life” or “love thy neighbor as thyself”? I think you know the answer. And that’s why I want a change. I want to follow Christ, not Witness Lee because I see the difference. I want the key, not the map. Otherwise, when the Lord comes to separate the sheep from the goats, I am afraid we will belong to the latter. (Matthew 25:31-46)
FaithInChrist, that was my personal experience with the LRC. Your experience can be different. Anyway, I believe you are a good personality and I am sure you are a good Christian. May the Lord bless and guide you.
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| 07-06-2014 08:52 PM |
| FaithInChrist |
Response to InChristAlone
Quote:
Originally Posted by InChristAlone
FaithInChrist, thanks for your posts. Welcome aboard!
Could you please tell us a little about yourself? How long have you been in the LRC? Do you believe that it’s the only genuine Christian church? What do you think about saints who left it? Do you know what reasons make saints leave the church? Have you ever read anything about the hidden history of the LC?
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My family has been in the "LRC" since before I was born. I do not believe that it's the only genuine Christian church. I think that leaving it is a decision that is between the individual saint and the Lord. Recently, I have read about several different reasons that caused saints to leave the "LRC." I have read a little about the hidden history of the "LC."
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