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02-05-2024 05:12 PM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

My point is simple - there's a pattern of reception in the NT, and WL breaks that pattern.

Over on the “God’s economy” thread, I’d been discussing my issues with Witness Lee misusing the NT text, and misreading the OT whilst fabricating and supporting his interpretations of Paul. But I felt to bring my further remarks here, as it’s more specific to this topic. I wanted to expand how I came to this view.

I was at home, singing Psalm 3 from the KJV. It had a nice melody that forced me to stretch my voice, and I used to rehearse the tune. I got to, “I laid me down and slept; I awaked; for the LORD sustained me” and I fell to the floor as if struck by a solid blow. I couldn’t sing. I couldn't see. I slowly raised up, began again, and again I was put down. The third time I tried, and the same thing happened again. I lay there for some time after the third try, slowly got up, and stopped singing. I later considered the text and was thunderstruck: I could actually seem to hear Jesus' voice in my consciousness: “I have the power to lay my life down, and the power to take it up again.” It was the Lord!

When I shared the verse in a meeting, as an example of a revelation of a type or figure of Christ, the LC Elder wouldn’t hear it. He just clammed up, stared straight ahead, rigid. I slowly began to sense what I was up against here. He couldn’t deny the close textual parallel, but since WL hadn’t expounded it, he couldn’t affirm it either. So he froze, and the meeting with him. Silent, still, quite awkward. Very uncomfortable.

Later, the same thing happened when singing Psalm 18 in the NIV text. “He rescued me because He delighted in me” – I could hear the voice from heaven, saying to Peter and James and John, “This is my beloved Son, in whom I delight, hear him.” I never sensed the import of the Father’s delight in His Son, our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, until Psalm 18, then I couldn’t deny that it was an absolute show-stopper. Then it said, “The LORD has dealt with me according to my righteousness; according to the cleanness of my hands he has rewarded me” and I knew it was the clean hands of the Lord. There are none other.

(On a related topic, as an example of scholarship with a careful and thorough examination of the NT reception of Psalm, see the book edited by Human, D. J., & Steyn, G. J. Psalms and Hebrews: Studies in reception. 2010, Bloomsbury Publishing. The Epistle to the Hebrews cited Psalms 19 times without implying it was fallen concepts or vain striving by a failed law-keeper.)

12-17-2022 03:49 AM

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

I was at a “Training” on Colossians, I think, when Witness Lee belittled some sisters for singing a song that included “His loving kindness endures forever”. He told them they should be singing a song that used New Testament words and was about Gods Economy (His favorite topic).

At the time, being a babe in the Lord, I didn’t have the discernment to question what he said.

Now, many years later, and hopefully more mature in Christ, I’ve come to really appreciate “His loving kindness endures forever” and of course we should sing that.

Here is a link to Psalm 118 that starts with those words https://biblehub.com/nas/psalms/118.htm

I think this is a great Psalm, fulfilled in Jesus Christ, the Lord, who I call on when in distress, and He delivers me. He has become my salvation. Better to trust the Lord than to trust in man. The stone the builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone, this is marvelous in our eyes. Hosanna, do save, Oh Lord. Blessed is He who comes in the name of YVWH, Jesus, YVWH savior!

Matthew 1 tells the origin of Jesus and ends with why Joseph gave him that name. Relevant reading during this season. Jesus, the king, of kings.

05-22-2021 11:35 AM

OBW

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

And you know my constant drumbeat. Let each passage say what it says, and let others say what they say. Both can be correct, but not necessarily as the result of the passage in front of us at the moment.

And that is why I generally dismiss what Lee taught. He sometimes pointed to what was there, but also to what was not there. And the only way to make that point true is to find other verses. Since he did not, I can only question the validity of what he said. And it was usually the part that was missing the evidence that he was trying to get across.

I realize that was not your intent. What you said was true, just because we have seen it stated elsewhere. Lee, not so much.

05-22-2021 09:25 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by OBW

I see that no matter whether we are trying to avoid God or are in desperate situations, God is always there. But nothing (truly) about his control or his will.

Yes, perhaps it was an overstretch. The question that I was trying to address was, apart from the constant mental massaging of the LC, how to comprehend God's will for us, personally? My point was that our knowledge is bounded, God's is not, at least operationally. And our comings and goings, risings and fallings, even our uncertainties and discord, all fit within his order. He may not order our failures but his order is not threatened by them.

In my case, one day I got a simple message: "serve others". That was the way home. And from that day I haven't been blindly beating the air, but have had a message and a mission. It has sustained me and conveyed me from one day to the next. And almost daily, if not daily, do I see 5 loaves feed 2,000 hungry mouths. God does it. I am dull in perception but not so dull that I can't perceive the utter improbability of it all. Yet it consistently occurs.

As a bit of an aside, I note that James doesn't call himself an apostle, but rather the introduction says, "James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ..." James' service to God and to the Lord Jesus Christ was to serve others. In this he fulfills the Great Commandment in its two parts, what he calls the "royal law" and "the perfect law of freedom" (1:25; 2:8; 2:12). It is just to love, and to love is to serve. When you see this, you understand, and are set free. When James speaks of 'works' this is the only particular work that is noted. To visit widows and orphans in their afflictions. Other than that, stay humble, stay on the bottom, keep your mouth from prattling on. (of course I'm guilty of failure at the last point and apologize to our tired and afflicted readers. Please forgive me, for taking so much effort to make so little sense)

05-21-2021 07:03 PM

OBW

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Psalm 139: 7-12
Where shall I go from your Spirit?
Or where shall I flee from your presence?
If I ascend to heaven, you are there!
If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there!
If I take the wings of the morning
and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea,
even there your hand shall lead me,
and your right hand shall hold me.
If I say, “Surely the darkness shall cover me,
and the light about me be night,”
even the darkness is not dark to you;
the night is bright as the day,
for darkness is as light with you.

God controls all matter and space. There is nothing beyond God. No footstep of ours is beyond God’s grasp. No move escapes His will.

aron,

Not sure I see your comments about control and will as flowing from these verses. I see that no matter whether we are trying to avoid God or are in desperate situations, God is always there. But nothing (truly) about his control or his will. Whether we realize it or not, as those who believe and follow God, we are never separated from him even when we think we may be. And in our darkest moments — even if we try to hide from him — he IS still there and light is still available to us.

05-21-2021 05:02 PM

aron

The knowledge of God, and our destiny

Quote:

Originally Posted by alwayscurious

How can we find what God has called us to do on this Earth? What is God's plan for us on an individual level? Is it just to be part of his eternal plan? What about the goals I have in my life, whether professional or personal? Is it not good to fulfill them to the best of my abilities? To strive for the peak? What am I not seeing? Should I not strive to be the best human I can possibly be? At the same time, expressing the virtues of Christ and loving God more and more? does anyone else share my frustration??

Reading this question on another thread, and get the frustration - it is the quintessential post-LC angst - but wanted to answer here, in a particular context. We do not know God, truly, or ourselves, but God know us, and this knowledge is complete. And in His knowledge, not ours, we find peace.

Quote:

Psalm 139 O LORD, you have searched me and known me!
2 You know when I sit down and when I rise up;
you discern my thoughts from afar.
3 You search out my path and my lying down
and are acquainted with all my ways.
4 Even before a word is on my tongue,
behold, O LORD, you know it altogether.
5 You hem me in, behind and before,
and lay your hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me;
it is high; I cannot attain it.

This shows an appreciation and awareness of God’s knowledge. The writer can't encompass God’s knowledge in full (v6) but is aware that God's knowledge encompasses the writer in full (vv 1-4). We don't know God, but we know that God knows us. ~Gal 4:9; cf 1 Cor 8:3

Quote:

7 Where shall I go from your Spirit?
Or where shall I flee from your presence?
8 If I ascend to heaven, you are there!
If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there!
9 If I take the wings of the morning
and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea,
10 even there your hand shall lead me,
and your right hand shall hold me.
11 If I say, “Surely the darkness shall cover me,
and the light about me be night,”
12 even the darkness is not dark to you;
the night is bright as the day,
for darkness is as light with you.

God controls all matter and space. There is nothing beyond God. No footstep of ours is beyond God’s grasp. No move escapes His will.

Quote:

13 For you formed my inward parts;
you knitted me together in my mother's womb.
14 I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made.
Wonderful are your works;
my soul knows it very well.
15 My frame was not hidden from you,
when I was being made in secret,
intricately woven in the depths of the earth.
16 Your eyes saw my unformed substance;
in your book were written, every one of them,
the days that were formed for me,
when as yet there was none of them.

Time is in God’s hand. It is all in the ledger. “It is written”, said Jesus – it is definitively settled, even before we see it appear. We have free will – we can fight the ledger, ignore it. But it still exists. Everything in the ledger is true.

Quote:

7 How precious to me are your thoughts, O God!
How vast is the sum of them!
18 If I would count them, they are more than the sand.
I awake, and I am still with you.

Again, the scope of God’s thought is beyond our power to grasp. “Not a sparrow fall from the sky, but the Father knows it” said Jesus. “Every hair on your head is numbered.” Our job is not to know, as much as to appreciate that God knows. God knows all. Psalm 147:4 says, "He determines the number of the stars and calls them each by name", and Isaiah 40:26 says "Lift up your eyes and look to the heavens: Who created all these? He who brings out the starry host one by one and calls forth each of them by name. Because of his great power and mighty strength, not one of them is missing."

Quote:

19 Oh that you would slay the wicked, O God!
O men of blood, depart from me!
20 They speak against you with malicious intent;
your enemies take your name in vain.
21 Do I not hate those who hate you, O LORD?
And do I not loathe those who rise up against you?
22 I hate them with complete hatred;
I count them my enemies.

Three times the Psalms speak this phrase – “away from me!” (Psa 6, 119, 139) – and three times Jesus spoke it. One with the tempter, one with Peter, one with the sheep and the goats. Coincidence? People say, “In the NT we love, not hate” but Jesus brooked no compromise. He was obedient without fail.

Quote:

23 Search me, O God, and know my heart!
Try me and know my thoughts!
24 And see if there be any grievous way in me,
and lead me in the way everlasting!

Again the writer/speaker is open to the God who knows all. Jesus fulfilled the first three lines of this section, and thus becomes our Way everlasting. The rest of us are “in the grievous way” of v 24, but Jesus was the Obedient Lamb who redeems humanity. Because Jesus was not "in the grievous way" he becomes our Way. Both the Gospel of John and the Epistle to the Hebrews make this utterly plain to the attentive reader.

10-21-2020 03:23 PM

aron

God's economy, or Psalms as the word of Christ

I was reviewing, and came across this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

1 Peter 3:10 does not match God's economy I think that's why.

WL had panned 1 Peter's quote of Psalm 34 and the question was, Why? This was the answer.

I used to say this, too. "Not God's economy". I'd left the LC physically, and was in another Christian meeting, and even if the speaking was 'inspired' and left the audience moved, not me. I'd seen "God's economy" and nothing else matched, even Peter quoting Psalm 34. But eventually I realized that WL's definition of "God's economy" had little scriptural basis, and other readings better aligned with "the whole Bible", or the whole textual corpus, as WL used to claim for support.

For example, what if Paul hadn't written, "To Timothy, my true child in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord. As I urged you on my departure to Macedonia, you should stay on at Ephesus to instruct certain men not to teach false doctrines or devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies, which promote speculation rather than the stewardship of God’s work [oikonomian Theou], which is by faith."

Imagine if Paul had instead written, "...rather than the stewardship of God's work [or, God's economy], which is God dispensing Himself into His chosen people". In that case, there'd be some basis, no? But Paul didn't write that.

Or if the Blended Pillars in Jerusalem had given Paul the right hand of fellowship, and said "Only, remember the poor" and Paul had exclaimed, "No! I'm not here for that! I'm here for God's economy!" Then we'd have some basis, no? But instead, he said that he was eager to do that very thing (Gal 2:10). Then in Acts 24:17, Paul said, "After many years, I returned to Jerusalem, bringing alms for my people". Paul didn't just say it, and teach it, he did it. He carried it out. And this activity matches Paul's repeated comments in I and II Corinthians and Romans, to set aside funds for the poor of Jerusalem.

In the gospels, Jesus taught, "Give to those who can't repay you in this age, and your reward will be great in heaven" (Luke 14:13-21). It seems then that there's more basis to say that this is God's economy, because Jesus repeatedly stressed this, it's what the Jerusalem leaders stressed to Paul, it's what Paul eagerly assented to, and it's what Paul both taught others and did himself.

And Paul enjoined the Gentile churches to participate. Romans 15:26 says, "For Macedonia and Achaia were pleased to make a contribution for the poor among the Lord's people in Jerusalem." Do you suppose that the Apostle Paul taught the ones in Macedonia and Achaia and Rome and Corinth one thing, and then charged Timothy to teach something different to those in Ephesus? If God's economy is instead what Witness Lee said, then why isn't there NT textual support? No, it was an interpretive overlay produced by the 'revelation' of the 'seer'. It wasn't actually written down, defined, or presented, as such. Instead, you needed a revelation to see it. (You know, a hand is shaped like a glove, right?) And then, what actually was written down (both NT and OT) got panned, because, like 1 Peter quoting Psalm 34, that supposedly didn't "match God's economy", i.e. it didn't jibe with the home-brewed interpretive matrix.

When your interpretation causes you to dismiss the actual words of the Bible as the basis of your faith, preaching and practice, then perhaps you should instead drop the interpretation.

05-14-2020 08:28 AM

Ohio

Re: Covid 19

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

One passage of rescue is found in Hebrews 2. The author of Hebrews was likely not an original disciple, and had never met Jesus. “This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him.” ~Heb 2:3 (This suggests that the writer was not Paul, who strongly asserted that his revelation wasn’t second-hand, but direct [Gal 1:12].)

I agree this passage is a great rescue in order to see Jesus.

Concerning the authorship of Hebrews, a couple comments here. I don't see how v.2.3 and the authorship by Paul are mutually exclusive. Paul could have direct revelation of Jesus Christ, and yet still have confirmation from those who "heard Him," i.e. the disciples who were with Jesus in the flesh. Gal 2.2 verifies this. Even after 14 years of salvation, Paul went to Jerusalem "privately to them of reputation laying before them the gospel he proclaimed" just to confirm that he was not "running in vain." Some of the details here are recorded in Acts 15.

Furthermore, the scholars' contentions against the authorship of Paul have to do with the actual Greek text of the book of Hebrews. Scholars also say the Greek text matches the writings of Luke but dismiss him readily as unqualified. (Philip Schaff said, "Hebrews is written in purer Greek than any book of the NT, except those portions of Luke where he is independent of prior documents.")

This apparently insurmountable quandary of authorship is easily explained by asserting that Paul wrote the rough draft outline, and Luke the polished text. Were not Paul and Luke constant companions? After Paul was sent to Felix in Caesarea under house arrest, he and Luke had much time and burden to corroborate on this book. Perhaps it was finished in Rome.

05-14-2020 07:48 AM

Ohio

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Reading thru Psalms 88, it almost reads as the voice of the Messiah in Sheol 3 days and 3 nights.

3. My life is nigh unto Sheol
4. I am reckoned with those in the pit
5. Cast off among the dead, like the slain who lie in the grave
6. You laid me in the lowest pit, in dark places, in the deeps
7. Your wrath lies hard upon me ......

I looked at a bunch of commentaries, but none seemed to take this view, including the Life Studies.

Read it again with the thought that we are hearing the voice of Jesus from the grave. Pretty fascinating.

04-07-2020 04:41 PM

aron

Covid 19

While talking someone frightened by the Coronavirus Pandemic, I told them, Watch Jesus... watch him, with fixation and utter intent. Don't look at anything else.

They replied, "I can't see him."

The issue is serious, pervasive, with real consequences. People are scared and alone, and they don't see Jesus. Their fear keeps them from seeing Jesus, and not seeing Jesus keeps them cut off from others, trapped in fear.

One passage of rescue is found in Hebrews 2. The author of Hebrews was likely not an original disciple, and had never met Jesus. “This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him.” ~Heb 2:3 (This suggests that the writer was not Paul, who strongly asserted that his revelation wasn’t second-hand, but direct [Gal 1:12].)

Now to the passage: “But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honour because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.” ~Heb 2:9

Notice that the author says “we see Jesus”. “We” means all of us, writer and readers, and "see" is in the present tense. How? How do we see Jesus? The answer is in found in the surrounding text, which copiously quotes Psalms and Prophets. We see Jesus in Psalms, temporarily lower than the angels, suffering. We see Jesus in Psalms, persecuted, we see him dying in agony for our sins. We see him resurrected. We see him crowned with glory and honour, at the Father's right hand. We see Jesus.

There are a number of books on this kind of seeing, both on Psalms' reception in the NT in general and in individual NT books. One of my favourites has been by Gert Steyn, a professor of NT studies in the University of Pretoria. “Psalms and Hebrews: Studies in Reception” T&T Clark, 2012.

When you see Jesus, everything changes. Everything.

"And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.” Zech 12:10, cf John 19:37

“No one has ascended into heaven except the One who descended from heaven—the Son of Man. Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in Him may have eternal life.” John 3:13,14, cf Num 21:8 “Then the LORD said to Moses, "Make a snake and mount it on a pole. When anyone who is bitten looks at it, he will live."

You have to see Jesus, to make it out of your current predicament Covid 19 or otherwise. That’s the way home to the Father in heaven. And it’s a way of peace. Once you see him, you have a peace that nothing can shake. Once you see (believe in), obey, and trust Jesus, no storm of life can shake you, no uncertainty or perilous circumstance can make your emotions jump. It’s the path of peace.

I’d like to conclude with two passages. Psalm 3 has David hiding in a cave, pursued by Saul and abandoned by his former associates. Verse 5 says, “I lie down and sleep; I wake again, because the LORD sustains me.” On this same regard, Jesus said, “I have the power to lay my life down, and the power to take it back up again. I have this authority because the Father gives it to me.” ~John 10:17,18

And Psalm 18:19 says, “He brought me out into the open; He rescued me because He delighted in me.” Like with companion piece, and neighbor Psalm 16, the text of Psalm 18 shows us the resurrection of Jesus because of the Father’s approval. And we know that the NT repeatedly emphasizes the Father’s delight in the Son. “This is My Beloved, in whom I delight. Hear him”. The Father's delight, approval, and rescue (resurrection) are strongly pervasive themes in the NT, and are foreshadowed repeatedly in David's rescue, from Saul, from the Philistines, from Absalom's rebellion etc etc.

Many on this forum are former prisoners from the Witness Lee Mind Control Programme and Guanxi Network, aka the Lord’s Recovery, aka the Local Church, aka Living Stream Ministry and aka Bibles for America. While under its strong thought control, we were kept from seeing Jesus. No, we were told, that’s not Jesus, just David the sinner presenting his "fallen human concepts" in the Psalms. One regularly sees these phrases in the footnotes, along with "mixed sentiments" and such.

Instead of seeing Jesus we saw money going into the Daystar Motorhome Company, aka Phosphorous and Overseas Christian Stewards, which funneled wealth to the Lee family network and those of his immediate peers. Nobody knows exactly how much went to whom because those who know don’t talk. But we know where the money went – into the Lee Network. Instead of Jesus, we got “the Office”, a euphemism for another of Lee’s sons, who repeatedly abused people. We got terms like “God’s humble bondslave” as a term for someone who never took direction from anyone, did whatever he wanted, and whose inspirations were supposedly tantamount to “God’s move”. And we got phrases like “a martyr who was poured out as a fragrant sacrificial offering” for someone who was repeatedly accused of sexual misconduct, not only by the government but by his own home church (!) and who when confronted didn’t deny (!), even knowing that many would be stumbled in their Christian walk. See Lily Hsu’s published account as an example of what his confession did to the church. It seems people who knew of Watchman Nee first-hand and second-hand didn’t hold him in such high regard, as those more distantly removed in time and space.

Now, to me those are our two choices: see the world, or see Jesus. The two options are mutually exclusive. You can’t have the one and the other. It’s an either/or predicament: there’s only one Way home to the Father, and it’s Jesus.

And we see Jesus. See the below quote, for example, from Psalm 110. Please note that the "Jesus quotes" are not merely limited to Psalm 2, 8, 110, and a few others. One merely has to seek, as I tried to present in the quotes from Psalm 3 and 18 above.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

Psalm 110:1-2

1The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”
2The Lord shall send the rod of Your strength out of Zion.
Rule in the midst of Your enemies!

The phrase "till I make your enemies your footstool" I think would be what is really "God's Economy". God raised up His anointed one, our Lord Jesus, and set him as head over all. Our Christian faith is that Jesus is the Christ, the son of the Living God, that he died for our sins, that God raised him from the dead, and gave his this highest honor of sitting at God's right hand, and that one day the Christ, Jesus will return. Of course, there is a lot more to the Christian faith, but I think this is the foundation- Its the foundation, the ground of the church from which all else is built up.

So what is this "till"? Paul addresses this in 1 Cor 15: 25-28

25For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

This does not bode well with a processed triune god phony concept of God's Economy. The theology WL sold had to discount the Psalms, and the saints singing and considering the Psalms because his LSM products did not align with the scripture.

02-07-2020 09:41 AM

Boxjobox

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

01-19-2020 10:03 AM

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

2 Timothy 2:8
Remember Jesus Christ, raised from the dead, descended from David. This is my gospel

Pretty simple.

Also I like,

Romans 1:1-4
Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God— the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures regarding his Son, who as to his earthly life was a descendant of David, and who through the Spirit of holiness was appointed the Son of God in power by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.

There's nothing wrong from teasing esotericism from abstruse readings of Greek and Hebrew clauses, or from comments made by some inter-testamental "Second Temple" source like the Qumran caves, or from early non-canonical Christian writings like the Shepherd of Hermas. But everything - everything - points to this gospel, this event. When we see the earthly, suffering Christ, descended from David, now raised to glory, we lose sight of everything else. Everything else is subsumed by this singular experiential reality. An informative phrase is used by John, who saw this One and simply dissolved his consciousness onto the floor (Rev 1:17). And remember, this was a close disciple who'd hung out with him for 3+ years!

Some may say the words "Processed Triune God" speak to this very thing, but my experience is, look at how quickly that encapsulating label became the vehicle for focusing on self, on applying this "Processed God" to our subjective and fickle sensory life, this abstract "Christ is everything" and "all-inclusive Christ" becoming a cipher manipulated by charlatans for personal gain.

And I got onto this riff on Psalm 3, on post #882, because I was trying to make the case that the Psalms are a proverbial mother-lode of imagery of the "buried" Christ. Abandoned, betrayed, shamed, persecuted, and given up for dead. David in a cave, with Absalom and the nobles on a warpath, wondering if he'd ever make it out. Or, Saul and others hunting him. Or the Philistines eyeing him with muttering distrust. Then deciding, "Well, God has all power. If he put me here, He can take me out again." The link with Jonah is there. I showed the verses that overlap.

I just feel like, if "this gospel" referenced in the cited NT verses above is interesting, then this poetic imagery might be as well. Again, it's somewhat of a subjective response and isn't truth per se, but much of our sharing in the 'ekklesia' is in this vein: as long as we don't force the issue we shouldn't be afraid to present such ruminations. And I do thank all our readers for the grace afforded me here.

Indeed, great quote. If we get bored by this gospel it really has connected with us in a personal manner yet. When it does we really can’t stop speaking of this resurrected Jesus and his power to save, transform, and build up sinners in His love into a glorious assembly of Jews and gentiles that glorifies God, and Him alone. Praise Him.

Why not delve into 150 of the greatest poetic works designed for singing and pointing forth the coming son of David, son of God, the rightful king of Jews and gentiles knowing that Jesus fulfilled and fulfills them all to the glory of the Father forever and ever.

01-17-2020 07:39 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by JJ

While reading 2 Timothy I came cross two verses that corroborate what you have been saying about The Psalms being about Jesus Christ our Lord, the son of David, raised from among the dead and that we should be holding to this teaching with the faith and love which are in Him.

https://biblehub.com/2_timothy/2-8.htm

https://biblehub.com/2_timothy/1-13.htm

It really is that simple.

01-17-2020 06:51 AM

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

I agree with your point. WL couldn't get the Psalms to deliver value to his "Processed God" metric so he essentially dismissed them. He's not the first Protestant or post-Protestant to do so, but the grounds are weak.

~David was a sinner. Why then did Peter cite David's declaration in Psalm 16 in speaking on Christ's resurrection? Or why cite, "I come to do Your will, Oh God" etc? ~Heb 10:7; cf Psa 40:8. If all are sinners, and nobody can do God's will, why does the NT cite the verse? Answer: it was about Jesus. Duh.

~Violence and antagonism. In Ephesians Paul said, "We fight, just not against flesh and blood." Jesus conquered sin and death and Hades, and we celebrate his victory. David had nothing on Jesus. Demons cried out in fear when he walked in. "Oh! Jesus! Nazarene! What do we have to do with you! Have you come to destroy us?!"

Of course a new era came with Jesus. He was indeed the new Moses, the new Law-giver. But the pictures and types that support this Jesus are there, including his suffering the indignity of death on our behalf, and his being raised to glory. His obedience led directly to the Father's intervention and rescue - the pangs of death could not hold him. To me this is the central narrative in the Psalms. Everything else hinges on this one thing.

But WL had his "we're being processed to be baby gods" thing. And by being so self-focused, he missed a lot of Christ that is portrayed there.

01-16-2020 09:39 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

Aron, sorry to disrupt your excellent post with my comment about WL. I have been enjoying your writings.

01-16-2020 09:29 AM

Boxjobox

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Aron, sorry to disrupt your excellent post with my comment about WL. I have been enjoying your writings.
And thanks JJ for your note.

01-15-2020 09:18 AM

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

I'll write this, and really do not want to get into a big theological debate, but only offer my view: WL's thing was the processed triune god. Reading and singing the psalms does not bring one into a thought that God is a processed trinity- in fact, quite the opposite. It brings one more into " Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ". WL had to belittle the psalms and twist them and explain them in his own mixed up theology because they contradicted his money making product which he sold under the LSM brand.

Yes, indeed Boxjobox

I wanted to correct a post I had somewhere on these boards (forgot). The One Body Life event "What Does Ekklesia Look Like" is January 25th in Loomis near Sacramento, not this Saturday.

01-15-2020 08:25 AM

Boxjobox

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

01-14-2020 10:01 AM

aron

Re: Resurrection is the key

Quote:

Originally Posted by OBW

Christ referred to Jonah in the fish for 3 days as a sign relating to him. But the rest of the account says more about us and how God will get what he desires despite us and our desires. Still good stuff, and also says something about Christ. But I surely cannot get Obedience + . . . = Resurrection from this account. Maybe that is not what you were suggesting and I just mixed two different things together that you did not intend.

Jonah prayed in the belly of the whale, that God could save him. That was obedience. God saved him. Jesus referred to Jonah's experience as what he would pass through.

In Psalm 16, David said God would keep him from the flesh-eating corruption of death. Peter quoted this on Pentecost as portraying Christ.

My contribution was to note the "nautical theme" of many Psalms passages, which otherwise were very similar to the one quoted by Peter in Acts 2, and repeated by Paul in Acts 13. Even one of them used the same phraseology. "All your waves and billows have gone over me". Someone is copying, here. And they have the consistent theme of Righteous Obedience + Suffering + Death = Resurrection.

So I'm saying that the theme of "resurrection" looms larger in the Psalms than Psalm 16. And the 'formula' I gave is from the Psalms, not from Jonah. But otherwise, they have striking parallels. And Jesus referenced Jonah, and Peter referenced Psalms. Pretty interesting, to me.

01-14-2020 07:22 AM

OBW

Re: Resurrection is the key

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

It's a bit 'esoteric', as I'm deriving a theme from observed textual patterns in poetic imagery and its use in the NT, but the NT keeps referring to the OT prophecy as pertaining to Jesus' experiences, so I am as well. Obedience + Suffering + Death = Resurrection. Jonah shows a glimpse, and Jesus quotes that, but the Psalms provide the details.

Just read through this and something is bugging me. I agree that Jesus made reference to Jonah concerning being in the belly of the whale for 3 days. But for Jonah, the suffering/death metaphor is hardly useful as part of some formula because he did not obey, then suffer, then die (literally or figuratively) then resurrect. Instead, he disobeyed and suffered for it. That the worst part of that suffering was 3 days in the belly of a great fish, followed by preaching to Nineveh, does provide something to refer back to as foreshadow or prophecy concerning Christ does not make Jonah's experience completely like that of Christ.

If we are to use Jonah as the example, then it would be something like Disobedience (leads to) Suffering and Death (leads to) Resurrection (leads to) Obedience. If we insert "Repentance" between Death and Resurrection, it might look more like our history.

I have always liked the approach of preaching Christ from all of the Bible. But that does not mean that everything is directly linkable to Christ. Christ referred to Jonah in the fish for 3 days as a sign relating to him. But the rest of the account says more about us and how God will get what he desires despite us and our desires. Still good stuff, and also says something about Christ. But I surely cannot get Obedience + . . . = Resurrection from this account. Maybe that is not what you were suggesting and I just mixed two different things together that you did not intend.

01-13-2020 07:54 PM

Re: Praise/Worship Songs! Turn Up Your Speakers!

Thanks for sharing with us aron. These Psalms have some things worthy of discussion in light of the New Testament. The works of law can’t make anyone righteous, but the faith of Christ can, then righteous works naturally come out of the man who lives by faith. Witness Lee had trouble differentiating that and proposed to skip over Psalms or portions of them that spoke of righteousness, robbing others of the chance to learn from profitable teaching in inspired Psalms.

David’s angry approach of wishing harm on his enemies is what we all think when attacked by others but need not emulate. Jesus and Paul taught a different approach “Love your enemies” and so heaping coals of destruction on them in the day of judgement. Often those enemies were won over for God’s kingdom (think Saul of Tarsus). David’s bloodthirsty ways cost him the right to build the temple, in favor of Solomon his more peaceful son. Wielding the sword and wishing evil on others is contrary to the heart of the a Father who desires that all men be saved and come to the full knowledge of the truth. Judgement will come, but we need not take the opportunity to show mercy away in this age.

01-13-2020 06:00 AM

aron

Resurrection is the key

In the NT, one of the major arguments among the Hebrews is on the idea of resurrection: the Sadducees don't believe in a physical resurrection, and challenge Jesus (Matt 22:23), whilst the Pharisees believe (Acts 23:8). I wrote this earlier:

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

Psalm 3 is a favourite, and this is why: Psalm 1 shows the way of the righteous man, Psalm 2 shows that righteous man enthroned as King of the nations (cf Deut 17:18-20), and Psalm 3 shows this King now facing rebellion. Just like with Genesis 1 through 3, God doesn't waste time but gets right to the point: the fall of humanity, their inability to obey God's commands (both directly and through a King) and its consequences.

But look what the deposed and exiled King does in Psalm 3, sequestered in a cave, surrounded by thousands who seek his life, betrayed by kinsmen and former aides (Absalom et al) - now, the King lies down and goes to sleep, confident that God can raise him again (v5). Jesus said, "I have the power to lay my life down, and the power to raise it up again." It tracks Psalm 3:5 almost perfectly.

In this case, the consequences of rebellion are much different than in Genesis 3. In this case, not only the Faithful King willingly lays down, and is raised, but in his rising he redeems the land and the people. "Just as by one man death appeared, so by one man's death, salvation appeared to all." (cf Rom 5:12-17; 1 Cor 15:20-22).

Psalm 3:5 "I lay down and slept; I woke again, for the LORD sustained me." (ESV) is a prelude to Jesus' "I have the power to lay my life down and the power to take it back up again."

Often in the Psalms, the declaration of faith is in God's saving power towards the righteous servant, or the servant's power to obey God and be rewarded. The most relevant example for the NT is Psalm 16, given by Peter on Pentecost (and by Paul in Acts 13). But Psalm 18 has very similar intimations - "He rescued me because He delighted in me", which along with Psalm 42 quote Jonah's prayer in the whale's belly. "All your waves and your billows were over me/I was in the heart of the sea". Jesus of course references Jonah's experience, possibly through Psalms as well. "All the things written concerning me must come to pass."

Psalm 18
3 I will call upon the Lord, who is worthy to be praised: so shall I be saved from mine enemies.
4 The sorrows of death compassed me, and the floods of ungodly men made me afraid.
5 The sorrows of hell compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me.
6 In my distress I called upon the Lord, and cried unto my God: he heard my voice out of his temple, and my cry came before him, even into his ears.

15 Then the channels of waters were seen, and the foundations of the world were discovered at thy rebuke, O Lord, at the blast of the breath of thy nostrils.
16 He sent from above, he took me, he drew me out of many waters.
17 He delivered me from my strong enemy, and from them which hated me: for they were too strong for me.
18 They prevented me in the day of my calamity: but the Lord was my stay.
19 He brought me forth also into a large place; he delivered me, because he delighted in me.

Psalm 42
5 Why art thou cast down, O my soul? and why art thou disquieted in me? hope thou in God: for I shall yet praise him for the help of his countenance.
6 O my God, my soul is cast down within me: therefore will I remember thee from the land of Jordan, and of the Hermonites, from the hill Mizar.
7 Deep calleth unto deep at the noise of thy waterspouts: all thy waves and thy billows are gone over me.
8 Yet the Lord will command his lovingkindness in the day time, and in the night his song shall be with me, and my prayer unto the God of my life.

Jonah 2
1 Then Jonah prayed unto the Lord his God out of the fish's belly,
2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.
3 For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me.
4 Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again toward thy holy temple.
5 The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head.
6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O Lord my God.
7 When my soul fainted within me I remembered the Lord: and my prayer came in unto thee, into thine holy temple.
8 They that observe lying vanities forsake their own mercy.
9 But I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay that that I have vowed. Salvation is of the Lord.

Psalm 69
2 I have sunk into the miry depths, where there is no footing; I have drifted into deep waters, where the flood engulfs me.

14 Rescue me from the mire and do not let me sink; deliver me from my foes and out of the deep waters.
15 Do not let the floodwaters engulf me or the depths swallow me up or the pit close its mouth over me.

Psalm 40:2
He lifted me up from the pit of destruction, out of the miry clay; He set my feet upon a rock, and made my footsteps firm.

__________________________________________________ _____________________

It's a bit 'esoteric', as I'm deriving a theme from observed textual patterns in poetic imagery and its use in the NT, but the NT keeps referring to the OT prophecy as pertaining to Jesus' experiences, so I am as well. Obedience + Suffering + Death = Resurrection. Jonah shows a glimpse, and Jesus quotes that, but the Psalms provide the details.

The arranged structure of the 150 Psalms may point to resurrection. If so, Psalm 3 isn't randomly placed, but keys to the Righteous King's death and resurrection, after 3 days. It's not too hard to connect the dots once you see them. The 150 Psalms were structured by a Pharisee, or Pharisee-agreeing person. It's about resurrection from the dead, and the Psalms are the proof-text of the redactor.

Of course, this resurrection-believing (and promoting) arranger of the Psalms is just a hypothesis. But my question is whether the placement of Psalm 3, right after Psalms 1 and 2 (which scholars see as deliberately forming an opening pair for the collection) a random thing, or is it also deliberate? And if it's placed there deliberately, then why? I see verse 5 as the key to my hypothesis.

And behind it all lies another question: David supposedly penned several thousand Psalms, which along with the Sons of Korah, Moses, Solomon, etc, would have constituted a very large body of work. Obviously many were lost. Why was this collection of 150 put together thus? Is it random, or arranged with a larger narrative (resurrection [??]) in mind?

And did Jesus see that narrative and walk into it? When you read his plain and deliberate statements in the gospels it seems entirely possible.

01-13-2020 02:40 AM

aron

Re: Praise/Worship Songs! Turn Up Your Speakers!

Quote:

Originally Posted by JJ

The intro says David wrote this when he was being pursued by Absalom his son. When he wrote of being surrounded by 10,000 men who hated him and by 10,000 demons it was no joke. He had to rely on the Lord to be his shield. The Lord was the glory and the lifter of his head...

Psalm 3 is a favourite, and this is why: Psalm 1 shows the way of the righteous man, Psalm 2 shows that righteous man enthroned as King of the nations (for confirmation, see Deuteronomy 17:18-20), and Psalm 3 shows the King now facing rebellion. Just like with Genesis 1 through 3, God doesn't waste time but gets right to the point: the fall of humanity, their inability to obey God's commands (both directly and through a King) and its consequences.

But look what the deposed and exiled King does in Psalm 3, surrounded by thousands who seek his life, betrayed by his former kinsmen and associates (Absalom et al) - the King lies down and goes to sleep, confident that God can raise him again (v5). Jesus said, "I have the power to lay my life down, and the power to raise it up again." It tracks Psalm 3:5 almost perfectly.

Do you see the faithful King? "He trusted in God, let Him save him now"

In this case, the consequences of rebellion are much different than in Genesis 3. In this case, not only the Faithful King willingly lays down, and is raised, but in his rising he redeems the land and the people. "Just as by one man death appeared, so by one man's death, salvation appeared to all." (cf Rom 5:12-17; 1 Cor 15:20-22)

See also John 4:42 They said to the woman, "We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Saviour of the world." And 1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Saviour of the world.

01-12-2020 09:10 PM

Re: Praise/Worship Songs! Turn Up Your Speakers!

Quote:

Originally Posted by JJ

Psalm 3
Follower Rock Band
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C279gOt6tHs

Thou O Lord are a shield for me. You’re the glory and the lifter of my head.

https://biblehub.com/bsb/psalms/3.htm

The intro says David wrote this when he was being pursued by Absalom his son. When he wrote of being surrounded by 10,000 men who hated him and by 10,000 demons it was no joke. He had to rely on the Lord to be his shield. The Lord was the glory and the lifter of his head. This same Lord is ours too and offers the same powerful protection, glory, and lifting of our heads today. Praise Him.

10-22-2019 06:47 AM

aron

Re: "I need nothing"

Quote:

Originally Posted by VoiceInWilderness

"I shall not lack" in Ps 23:1 is a statement that all believers should be able to make..

Quote:

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

The rest of the psalm describes how God comes through in every aspect of our lives.

Psalm 23 is a reality in my life and never ceases to be. I have experienced every verse come true at different times in my life. Surely God's Goodness and Mercy continuously follows me and hopefully all of you every day of my/your lives.

Hi cmw & VIW,

Your posts probably reflect popular Christian reading of the Psalm, the "standard model" as it were. And in matters of interpretation there's not necessarily a wrong or a right. God is true and every man (and woman) a liar - and that includes me, foremost among them. So I'm not contending here, or I'm trying not to

But let's look for a minute at the idea of the "I" in Psalm 23 being the believer, not Jesus Christ. At first it seems obvious - Jesus is the LORD made flesh, per John 1. Jesus is the Good Shepherd, per John 10. Okay, then - Psalm 23:1 shows the Christian believer declaring by faith that Jesus is their Shepherd, and they (the believer) shall not lack anything. Pretty straight-forward.

But if one tries to carry this interpretive grid further, it falls apart, as Witness Lee showed in his Life-Study of Psalms. What happens when the "I" in the Psalms text declares unwavering obedience to God's law? The NT epistles tell us that we sinners can't do it. So WL taught that this word was therefore "fallen humanity, mistakenly trying to be good." Yet the NT citation instead refers to Jesus Christ: "I come to do Thy will, O God; behold in the scroll of the book is written concerning me" (Heb 10, cf Psa 40). Likewise, in Psalm 18, and Psalm 119, &c, when the text promises compliance to God's expressed will (the law), there's apparently a problem, which WL "solved" by saying the scripture is mistaken, and vain. He repeatedly used words like "mixed sentiments" and "human concepts". I don't want to go down that route. Jesus never intimated this - rather he repeatedly declared his fulfillment of scripture, and divine mandate.

Second, what of the Psalmist declaring "surely I was sinful at birth" (Psa 51) and "my iniquities have overwhelmed me; they are a burden too heavy to bear" (Psa 38) and "evils without number surround me; my sins have overtaken me, so that I cannot see. They are more than the hairs of my head, and my heart has failed within me" (Psa 40)? And there's more - the Psalmist repeatedly confesses his standing before God. How can this possibly be Christ? And how can this be the Christian believer, who "lacks nothing" per Psalm 23:1?

I believe that Christ became sin on our behalf, and could be touched with our weakness, so that he can intercede for us. He was without sin, but on the Cross he bore our sins. So when Jesus prayed, "Forgive us our sins" in Matt 6, the Father was able to take them away - Christ could speak such words on our behalf, even though he didn't have to. Yet because of his great love for us, he spoke them, as one of us! He walked through the valley of the shadow of death for us, so that we, today, might follow, with his Holy Spirit's leading. It's only his pioneering journey through Psalm 23 that makes ours possible. The "I" of Psalm 23 remains Christ. Any reality we find is solely in our identification with him. It's "imputed as our righteousness", as it were. Jesus as High Priest can speak these words to the Father, and the Father hears, and forgives. Only Jesus can speak these words. There's only One Mediator between humanity and God, the [sinless and perfected forever] man Christ Jesus.

Lastly, what of the so-called Psalms of imprecation? Here the Psalmist doesn't bless but curses, and rails against the foes. Again, Witness Lee said this didn't track well within NT context, and was also "fallen human concepts". Yet Christ is the Warrior, the Victorious King. Demons cried out with fear, when he walked in the room: "Oh! What do we have to do with you, Jesus, Nazarene! We know you - the Holy One of God! Have you come to destroy us before our time?!" Paul likewise said, "We don't fight against flesh and blood but against powerful, antagonistic spiritual forces". So the battle rages with light against darkness, and darkness can't withstand the light. Jesus is the Anointed King, the forever-enthroned Son of David per Psalm 18:50. We don't yet see everything under his feet, but the time is coming.

I've said this before: several times in the Psalms, the writer expresses hatred for the sinful ones, and contemptuously dismisses them. ~Psalm 6:8; 119:115; and 139:19. And at least four times Jesus uses nearly identical terminology of dismissal. ~Matt 7:23/Lu 13:27; Matt 25:41; Matt 16:22/Mark 8:33; and Matt 4:10. So one shouldn't say that some OT expression of antagonism, condemnation and rejection, doesn't match Jesus' command to bless in the NT, and to love those who hate us, and to turn the other cheek. Did David turn the other cheek to Goliath? Let's not create a make-believe Bible.

The "I" of scripture is Christ. Paul said, "No longer 'i' but 'Christ'" - he alone is the Self, or Person, of humanity in scripture. Because of sin, all others simply don't pass muster. And then we sinners see the King, and we live. He becomes our life, our living, our person. And then, we lack nothing. But only then. To insinuate our own persons into scripture is to commit grave error.

Here, I'm perhaps challenging a familiar Christian textual reading of Psalm 23, but at one point Luther took issue with the Standard Model, as later did Wesley (and others). So, occasionally it must be done. Look at the LC issue of reading "self" into the text. WL's followers said he had a "rich ministry", and he told us that he'd reached the "high peaks" of 2,000 years of Christian interpretation, that he'd learned nothing from anyone for 40+ years. Now, does that sound right-sized? Or does it rather look like the perilous position of Revelation 3:17, eventually reaching full flower or "consummation" in Rev 18:7?

10-21-2019 11:04 AM

countmeworthy

Re: "I need nothing"

Quote:

Originally Posted by VoiceInWilderness

Aron,
"I shall not lack" in Ps 23:1 is a statement that all believers should be able to make.
It is trusting the Lord for our material and psychological needs as in 2Cor 8:15.
Laodicea is saying I don't need anything from anyone outside my denomination.

The rest of the psalm describes how God comes through in every aspect of our lives.
Psalm 23 is a reality in my life and never ceases to be. I have experienced every verse come true at different times in my life. Surely God's Goodness and Mercy continuously follows me and hopefully all of you every day of my/your lives.

The more I learn about Witness Lee, the more I am appalled by him and his self righteous false teachings.

10-20-2019 05:01 PM

VoiceInWilderness

Re: "I need nothing"

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

"I need nothing"

Psalm 23:1 says "The LORD is my Shepherd; I need nothing". Revelation 3:17 says, "You say, 'I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.' But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked."

The difference between the two verses is that the first statement is a Word of Christ: the "I" of Psalm 23 is Christ. But the "I" of Revelation 3:17 is a "NT believer enjoying grace" per WL's verbiage.

WL made 2 exegetical errors in the Psalms: usually he said it was a NT believer enjoying grace in "God's NT economy", or it was David expressing his natural concepts. No; the NT reception of Psalms shows rather that it was Jesus Christ. Lee's chief error was to cause us to look a away from Christ and at our "experience" and "enjoyment".

10-20-2019 12:40 PM

aron

"I need nothing"

11-26-2018 07:09 PM

countmeworthy

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by VoiceInWilderness

Thanks Aron! You gave me a new way to look at Ps 42. This psalm could be the Lord's experience praying under extreme pressure in Gethsemane. It could be the psalm that Jesus sang together with His disciples that night. I had never taken it like that before. I updated my comments on this psalm to include the link to the Lord.
http://www.voiceinwilderness.info/psalm_42.htm

An interesting explanation of the meaning of Psalm 42 that grabbed my attention is that when a hart, deer is being chased by it's predator, it looks for water, be it a stream, river, lake. Because once it is in the water, the predator loses it's scent for the animal.

When we are being chased by the enemy, we pant for that Living Water so the enemy will lose us. When we hide in the Presence of the LORD, covered in the Blood of Jesus, covered under the shadow of God's wings, we are protected and no weapon formed against us will succeed in bringing us down.

As the deer pants for the water brooks,
So my soul pants for You, O God.
My soul thirsts for God, for the living God;

11-26-2018 06:26 PM

VoiceInWilderness

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

Another example that comes to mind is "Deep calls to deep in the roar of your waterfalls; all your waves and breakers have swept over me." from Psalm 42:7. Compare this to Jonah 2:3 "You hurled me into the depths, into the very heart of the seas, and the currents swirled about me; all your waves and breakers swept over me." Somebody appears to be copying, here. How could David the landlubber psalmist seize upon a sea-faring narrative? Because the enemy coming against him like a "flood", like "waters", is a common poetic metaphor. And this is picked up on in the NT: "Just like Jonah was in the heart of the sea, so shall the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth". To go down into the depths of the sea is a metaphor, a spiritual picture, of the descent into Hades.

11-24-2018 07:37 AM

aron

Ministry of Reconciliation, or Guanxi Network?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

How did Brother Lee treat the OT? He opened it up thoroughly. As ZNP observed verse by verse. But you mean Psalms... well, I took your advice and thumbed through the RcV and on almost every page in the book of Psalms there are footnotes.

Now, granted these footnotes in Psalms are not extensive as you would find Brother Lee wrote in Ephesians, Hebrews, Matthew, Revelation, Romans, because frankly, there is much more concerning the dispensation we now live in those NT books than in the Psalms.

The gospels presented Jesus as the Messiah foretold by the ancient inspired writers. The Acts and epistles further this: Jesus is the promised Seed of David, who brought in a new age of human living under God’s care and providence. Now, “we do not yet see all things subject to him” (Heb 2:8; cf Psa 8 & 1 Cor 15), but nonetheless all attention focused on Jesus as the fulfillment of God’s promise to man.

So footnotes and/or teachings on the Christian Bible should focus first of all on the person of Jesus in the gospels as the fulfillment of God's expressed will; second on scriptures which the gospels cite (Psalms/Isaiah etc); third on the epistles as they're showing how the gospels and the prophetic word were harmonized in one person. Everything else in the Bible makes sense only as it points to and is derived from the great fact of "Jesus as Lord": the obedient Son of Man, crucified, resurrected and glorified. Our vision, our consciousness and living should be consumed by this. ~Luke 24:44 "He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms." We never graduate from this: we only go deeper and deeper. He went through it- we go through it.

But in the RecV gospel of Matthew it's half footnotes and half text; Mark/Luke/John are less - 1/3 to 1/4 footnotes. The book of Isaiah is maybe 1/4 footnotes and the Psalms are maybe 1/8 footnotes; the rest text. Then if you look at the epistles, such as 2 Corinthians or Ephesians, you have anywhere from 2/3 to 3/4 of the page as footnotes. So clearly the focus is there.

In these lengthy epistolary footnotes there's a focus on abstract, impersonal concepts, such as "the dispensation we now live in" alluded to in the quote above; or the "NT believer enjoying grace"; or "mingled"; or "service" . . the actual person of Jesus is less important; who he was and what he did. And it’s even worse with the prophetic word: there, abstract concepts are levers used to denigrate swaths of scripture as “fallen human concepts”. Certainly not the verse-by-verse unveiling claimed by Drake. And, it cannot be over-emphasized, this is NOT what the NT writers and speakers did in regard to scripture. They never suggested this kind of treatment!

Now, the LSM apologist has a weak dodge here – “OK, smarty – why don’t you write some footnotes? Let’s see you do better” But we're not purporting to be God’s present oracle here; rather, showing why this particular claimant seems faulty. To whom much is given – ahem, ‘ministry of the age’ - much is required.

Then go from teaching to practice, to what's actually done in the LC, and there's even less connection with the Jesus of the gospels. For example, instead of a ministry of reconciliation, per 2 Corinthians, there are strong signs of a guanxi network. Run afoul of network hierarchy and there's no going back – no reconciliation. That's what we can see in the history of the LC. John Ingalls, John So, Bill Mallon, Max Rappaport, Titus Chu, Dong Yu Lan. . . a string of breaks and no mending. All were top lieutenants who ran afoul of the network culture. None came back. The culture won't allow it.

Or, where are the "good works" that Jesus did (Matt 4:23; 9:35; cf Acts 10:38)? "Oh, we're not a social service agency", says the LSM. What about Paul's focus on helping the poor (Gal 2:20)? "Well, we have a different emphasis". Indeed; and this different emphasis is also seen in the footnotes, or lack thereof.

I don't see the Bible being "opened up thoroughly" as Drake said; rather, a fallen human mind, building abstract sand-castles, and when the wind blows, any proverbial "rebellion" or "storm" or "turmoil", the edifice collapses: no reconciliation, tolerance, or forbearance. Just a holding onto abstractions - "God's economy" - but no love. How to be reconciled in such an environment? Only through abject servility; only by being subsumed to ministry ideals can one be reconciled with it. Even the Bible text itself is secondary to these ideals, not vice versa.

11-06-2018 12:00 PM

VoiceInWilderness

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

We rate higher than Balaam. We don't want the Lord speaking to us through an ass. That would mean that we are lower than an ass. Balaam's end is not good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

Bro Voice, I really enjoyed your examples of the Lord speaking to you. And I noticed that God once spoke to you "externally." You obviously rate better than I. But didn't God have to speak audibly thru the ass because Balaam was so stubborn?

I think God spoke to Balaam through the ass for our benefit.
Balaam, though he was a famous servant of God, was beyond correction.
I think the reason God spoke to me that one time in an external voice was because I was a new believer and did not have a Christian background. I have heard testimonies from Muslims who got saved that are similar.

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

Maybe like Balaam, I'd hear God's voice if like Balaam I gave God push back. But I have. I've shaken my fist at God plenty of times. In fact, when my young son died I shook my fist and challenged Him to hurt me as much as he wanted, that I wasn't running from the devastating grief and pain of that loss, into some easy escape. It got me thru. There's way more story to it ... that's on going.

owee, ow, ow. I actually know how you feel. My beautiful son, Isaac, went to be with the Lord in Feb, 2016. It was a 7 year harrowing process. My wife would cry all night long. But the Lord was there. He was near me, and speaking through the word. What kept me going those 7 years was the Psalms. Down-to-earth, honest and holy templates for prayer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

Thanks brother. It's always great to hear from you.

thanks bro

10-20-2018 09:48 AM

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

And, God has spoken to me many times and still does through the foolishness of men preaching concerning Christ and His Cross. However it is done I will respond by calling on His name and rejoicing

1 Cor 1:23 https://biblehub.com/blb/1_corinthians/1.htm
Romans 10:1-15 https://biblehub.com/blb/romans/10.htm
Philippians 1:15-18 https://biblehub.com/blb/philippians/1.htm

Even before and after that God spoke ands speaks night and day through His creation (even though I was initially ignorant to it for years!).
Romans 1:20 https://biblehub.com/blb/romans/1.htm

So, “God doesn’t speak to me” or “God sent me a text”. Lies from the enemy!

10-19-2018 10:39 PM

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

I wouldn’t worry about not hearing the Lord speak to me personally because he already has through His Son, apostles, and Spirit. It is more a matter of how I respond to the words he has already spoken to all of us.

God spoke that He is well pleased in His Son, that we should hear Him, and that He spoke to us in His Son. His Son is the radiance of His glory and the express image of His substance.
Luke 3:22 https://biblehub.com/blb/luke/3.htm
Matthew 17:5 https://biblehub.com/blb/matthew/17.htm
Hebrews 1 https://biblehub.com/blb/hebrews/1.htm

God sent His Son as the Word - we just need to behold His glory and believe in Him to have eternal life
John 1:1-14 https://biblehub.com/blb/john/1.htm

When we turn our heart to the Lord, behold and reflect Him, He transforms us into the same image as He.
2 Cor 3:16-18 https://biblehub.com/blb/2_corinthians/3.htm

God also sent apostles to speak God’s word to us. Hearing, believing, and being obedient to their word is the same as God’s word and causes us to enter into God’s rest. Such a word is living and active, divides soul from spirit and joints from marrow, and lays everything bare to the eyes of God the judge. Therefore, since we have such a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to what we profess. For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who was tempted in every way that we are, yet was without sin. Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.

God wants us to be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and without blemish; and esteem the patience of our of our Lord as salvation, grow in grace and in knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity.

1 Thessalonians 2:13
https://biblehub.com/blb/1_thessalonians/2.htm
Hebrews 4:2:7-16 https://biblehub.com/bsb/hebrews/4.htm
2 Peter 3:15-18
https://biblehub.com/blb/2_peter/3.htm

Keep away from any brother who leads an undisciplined life, not in keeping with the word heard from the apostles.
2 Thess. 3:14 https://biblehub.com/bsb/2_thessalonians/3.htm

God wants us to receive in meekness the implanted word (spoken to us by the apostles) and be doers of the word and not hearers only.
James 1:25 https://biblehub.com/blb/james/1.htm

John exhorted us to hear what the Spirit has spoken to the churches in
Revelation 2 and 3 http://biblehub.net/search.php?q=Let...he+Spirit+says

So, what me worry about God not speaking to me? No way. He has indeed.

I hope this is an encouragement when it seems that God is silent.

10-17-2018 07:25 AM

awareness

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by VoiceInWilderness

(My uncle just passed away peacefully yesterday, at 100 years old, so I'm in Baltimore for the funeral today.)

Sorry to hear that. Hope he lived a full life.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voice

God's speaking to us is not like I am speaking to you and you to me.

I eventually learned that. But still. The Bible depicts God as audibly speaking ; like at Jesus' baptism. He's certainly couldn't be considered deaf, dumb, and mute, back then. He even spoke thru a burning bush ... and ... let's not forget, an ass. Don't I rate at least that? I feel like one at times.

Bro Voice, I really enjoyed your examples of the Lord speaking to you. And I noticed that God once spoke to you "externally." You obviously rate better than I. But didn't God have to speak audibly thru the ass because Balaam was so stubborn?

Maybe like Balaam, I'd hear God's voice if like Balaam I gave God push back. But I have. I've shaken my fist at God plenty of times. In fact, when my young son died I shook my fist and challenged Him to hurt me as much as he wanted, that I wasn't running from the devastating grief and pain of that loss, into some easy escape. It got me thru. There's way more story to it ... that's on going.

Thanks brother. It's always great to hear from you.

10-16-2018 06:59 PM

VoiceInWilderness

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

I don't know brother Voice. This hits close to home for me. You recently told me that I've lost my salvation. You don't know the half of it brother. Many years ago I once went around for a year or so saying that, God is deaf, dumb, and mute. Why? Because my conversations with Him were a monologue, as in, I did all the talking. If I had a life long friend, and I did all the talking, I would eventually conclude that he, or she, was deaf dumb and mute.

So I kind of understand Ruth Lee and Peace Wang.

I guess I've said enough for now.

Thanks Awareness, that was a good and thoughtful answer.

(My uncle just passed away peacefully yesterday, at 100 years old, so I'm in Baltimore for the funeral today.)

God's speaking to us is not like I am speaking to you and you to me.

When the Lord resurrected, He appeared to the disciples and told them that He was going before them to a certain mountain in Galilee.
Peter and the disciples go to that mountain, and guess what? - No Jesus. They waited probably for days, and no Jesus. So Peter, offended that Jesus did not keep His word, says, I'm going fishing. And you know the story of the Lord's appearing to them after they spent all night fishing and caught nothing.
The Lord had kept His word: He was there before them on the mountain in Galilee, but He was invisible, and seemingly not speaking. In this way, after His resurrection, the Lord spent 40 days with them, appearing and disappearing, training them to live by His invisible presence and still small voice. (This was one of the many great teachings of WL. I don't know if he got it from someone else, but that doesn't matter to me.)

Call to mind in your past when you had the Lord's speaking. Here are some examples that come to my mind of how the Lord spoke to me in various ways.

1. I could not tell if Jesus was God or not. I had just come to the church in Cleveland, and bros showed me verses showing that Jesus was God, esp. Isa 9:6, but I didn't feel they could explain other verses that implied that Jesus was not God. A bro invited me over for dinner, and after dinner we pray-read John 14. 2 bros were reading and shouting and rejoicing, and I felt, "This is not for me". Then a bro said to me, "Steve, your spirit's connected to your mouth." He was pointing for me to read v8 where Philip tells the Lord to show us the Father. For some reason I said, "Oh, since my spirit's connected to my mouth, I'll start with v1", not knowing what I was saying. When I spoke v1 "Let not your heart be troubled", I felt that the Lord was speaking the verse to me in my heart. My heart was very troubled because I felt that I could not be saved because I could not know if Jesus was God. Instantly my heart was not troubled, but a joy that I had never felt before rose up in my heart instead. Then I continued and the Lord kept speaking in my heart, "You believe in God, believe also in Me." I started laughing. It was so simple. I believe in God, believe also in Jesus. I understood, How could I believe in Him if He were not God. Then I continued, "In My Father's house are many abodes. If it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you." I jumped up and we all started dancing around the house. On my way driving home, I was rubbing my heart, it felt so good. I told one of my frat bros, "What I experienced today was worth a whole lifetime of suffering."

2. I had just been saved and baptized for about 1 month. 4 of us had a daily evening prayer meeting at the fraternity house that I lived at. One of the bros started to become worldly, I thought. I was in a quandary how to help him. While walking quickly between classes, I thought, Eureka! I'll pray about it! When I got home to my frat room, I shut the door and prayed how to help this bro. Nothing from the Lord. So I said, Lord, here are 3 ways: I could rebuke him, or I could not say anything but be an example to him, or I could rebuke him in love. No answer. So I said, Lord, I feel the best about rebuking him in love, so that's what I'll do. And I heard a sound like a lion's roar. I jumped off my bed, and got down on my knees, and said, "What did you say, Lord?" I heard, "You change My words." And then, "Trust in Me, I will give you life." That was the only time I heard the Lord's voice externally.

3. I was typing my computer program on a keypunch. The computer room proctor was a little Jewish boy like me. I was praying for him to be saved, while I was keypunching. A big unkempt motorcycle gangster walked into the computer room smoking a cigarette. As the motorcycle guy was organizing his punch cards, the little proctor walked over, grabbed his arm and crushed out the cigarette, saying, No smoking allowed!, and then sat back down at his desk.
The motorcycle guy was enraged. He turned red and started charging at the proctor yelling, I'll teach you! I said, "Lord! What should I do?" No answer. So I just jumped up and got in the motorcycle guy's face, having no idea what to say. Then when I looked at the guy's face I knew exactly what to say. I recognized that I had preached the gospel to this guy before and he had told me he was a Christian. I yelled, "You're a Christian! What are you doing!?" He was dumbfounded and didn't know what to say. We became good friends, and he became a solid Christian.

4. I was reviewing a pile of about 30 resumes to narrow down to 5 people to interview. I saw one was an Arab name, and tossed it to the reject pile. Then the verse came to me, "You shall not despise an Egyptian because you sojourned in his land." I said, Wow, and I picked up the resume, and looked, and the guy was an Egyptian. I read over the resume again, and it was as good as the others on the "keep" pile. We hired him. He saved one of my projects that was failing which became a very successful project. He was one of the first immigrants that my company sponsored for a green card.

10-15-2018 07:14 AM

Weighingin

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Sure, thanks for the direction on presentation.

10-15-2018 05:26 AM

Ohio

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weighingin

The turmoil that resulted from who followed Lee more faithfully, BL Bros or Titus, with the "quarantine", just hurt and divided the saints. The history of the dreaded "Christianity" repeats itself. I only saw this recently. It actually has been over 40 years.

Weighingin, we probably should restrict our comments here to the thread topic about Psalms.

Would you consider opening your own thread on the Introductions sub-forum? You could introduce certain LC issues most disturbing to you.

10-14-2018 08:19 PM

awareness

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by VoiceInWilderness

Thank you for your honesty. That is apparently what happened to Ruth Lee, and she influenced Peace Wang.

I've seen it happen for others too brother. One that comes immediately to mind is a sister I've known since before the LC. I brought her and her then boyfriend in. They stayed in 5 years after I left. The same thing happened to them that happened to me : over loyalty to Christ over Lee.

After they left, she dropped it all ; everything religious ; the Bible ; Jesus : God ; the whole shebang, if you will. Her husband became an alcoholic. My dearest friend today, going back to Kangas and Detroit, is now a Hindu. And a friend going back to 2nd grade, who once was an elder, is now a Native American Shaman. All of these are still fine people. They are caring, loving, giving, and honest, human beings. I love them. Not only am I not able to turn my love for them off, I don't want to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voice

WL said that there were only 3 people who were absolutely one with WN: himself, Ruth Lee and Peace Wang. Lily Hsu's book bears that out.
This shows how destructive it is to follow a man absolutely like that.

The need to follow a man is a need of the flesh.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voice

What would have been a healthy reaction on their part to the exposing of WN would have been to realize that they were wrong to follow a man to that extent. They could have recalled the past when they started the local church with WN and were able to fellowship honestly and to disagree with him.

I never knew Lee to have a Q & A after his speakings.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voice

WN could have escaped to Taiwan, but chose to stay and suffer immensely.

He probably felt he deserved it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voice

I don't understand that either. I can only process what I saw with WL.

Yet we didn't know Nee or Lee

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voice

I don't remember that, but I commend him for that because it is honest. That statement was probably pre 1977, or at least pre 1984.

1994

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voice

Giving your life to a system is wrong, whether it is of the natural man or spiritual man.

Up until around 1977 I didn't feel I was giving myself to a system, or to following a man. I had "The Vision." The vision was that the local church was the spearhead of God's present move on the earth. I was in God's eternal purpose ... not a system.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voice

I had done that until we had a church split in 2007 over the "one publication" edict. I had thought we were better than other Christians because I thought we were more dedicated to oneness, (at the expense of truth and honesty) and then we had a church spilt over something that other Christians would have fellowshipped about and handled maturely and been reconciled. We had an ex-pastor meeting with us then, and he said that he had seen many church splits,

I grew up in the Southern Baptist church, and we moved a lot ; Detroit, Miami, Kentucky, and back to Detroit. With each move my mother carefully found just the right conservative Southern Baptist church. And in every case things were fine for awhile, and then some minor disagreement would crop up, then the love they shared turned to harsh disagreement, that led to a split with much animosity. I heard it told that that was why the Southern Baptist churches grew. It looked like a cancer to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voice

but never one that was so avoidable as this. And we had prided ourselves on Oneness. That told me that we were on the wrong road. The right road was what we had been on before WL became the center of the church - following Christ, the Spirit, the Bible and our spirit.

I got pushed out for saying that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voice

That is a terrible place to be in.
KJV 1 Corinthians 4:6 And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.

So 20 years after Pentecost Paul was already encountering division by following men. Now look at Christianity. I don't know, I don't have the stats, but it sure looks to me that Christianity is the most divided religion on the earth.

But Lee's solution was to become the center of oneness.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voice

We do project our faults onto others and also onto the Bible.
I think the "natural man" teaching by WL was off and even more off how it was distorted in testimonies.
"natural" is "soulish". Adam became a living soul when God breathed into his nostrils. So he had a soulish or "natural" body before the fall. That is Adam had a body, soul and spirit, but he was dominated by the soul.
We human beings need to live by both our soul and our spirit, and we are going to be dominated by our soul. If we reject our spirit and live only by the soul, we cannot receive the things of the Spirit of God. But until we receive spiritual bodies, we are still living souls in this age, and our dominant part is our soul. That is what it means that Adam became a living soul. To reject our soul as "natural" is to reject what it means to be a human being.

At first I was mesmerized by the three circles. It told me in three's how I was made up ; a trinity.

But it's not true. We are not three separate compartments. The body is not separate from the soul and the spirit. The soul is not separate from the body and the spirit, and the spirit is not separate from the body and the soul. Why?

Because just like the trinity, the three are one. Our entire being is all body, soul (mind), and spirit ; one hundred percent each all in one. And they all inform my decision making (done in my soul methinks). The body is the clear winner. We tend to that the most every day. It speaks the loudest. In fact, we desperately need the soul and the spirit to pull back hard on its reins. Still, when ya gotta go ya gotta go ; no need for three confirmations from the spirit. When we're hungry we eat. When we need sleep we sleep. The needs of the body rule.

But I ramble. Thanks Steve for your great response.

I wasn't there for Ruth Lee and Peace Wang. I don't know what they went thru. I don't know why they became atheists. Maybe just to fit in with the atheist authorities ... I don't know. China is still 90% atheist. Many of them are so atheist that they don't even know that they are atheist's. They know nothing of religion of any sort ... even the atheist religion.

I don't know brother Voice. This hits close to home for me. You recently told me that I've lost my salvation. You don't know the half of it brother. Many years ago I once went around for a year or so saying that, God is deaf, dumb, and mute. Why? Because my conversations with Him were a monologue, as in, I did all the talking. If I had a life long friend, and I did all the talking, I would eventually conclude that he, or she, was deaf dumb and mute.

So I kind of understand Ruth Lee and Peace Wang.

I guess I've said enough for now.

10-13-2018 09:08 PM

Weighingin

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

10-13-2018 08:25 PM

Ohio

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weighingin

It took me over 30 years to realize fully that following the ministry of LSM/Lee was not the same as following God. I thought my experiences of Christ, etc had to come from that ministry. The Lord is merciful and enlightening, but it seems He leaves it to us to seek how to be with Him.

MeToo, not to be trite.

After 30 years, I also was confronted with 2 choices, to be of Lee, or to be of Chu. Thus, something so idiotic and Romish as the One Publication Bull was used by the Lord to expose where we really were. We had become completely leavened, and needed a good purging.

10-13-2018 07:29 PM

Weighingin

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

10-13-2018 06:29 PM

VoiceInWilderness

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

Thanks Steve. Truth be told, if I hadn't already lost faith in Nee, Lily Hsu's book would have turned me into an atheist.

Thank you for your honesty. That is apparently what happened to Ruth Lee, and she influenced Peace Wang.

WL said that there were only 3 people who were absolutely one with WN: himself, Ruth Lee and Peace Wang. Lily Hsu's book bears that out.
This shows how destructive it is to follow a man absolutely like that.

What would have been a healthy reaction on their part to the exposing of WN would have been to realize that they were wrong to follow a man to that extent. They could have recalled the past when they started the local church with WN and were able to fellowship honestly and to disagree with him.

WN could have escaped to Taiwan, but chose to stay and suffer immensely.

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

I'm still dumbfounded that, a man on the one side can be a powerful spiritual minister and leader, and then on the other side be, a man of the flesh. David does come to mind. Still, both had to pay for it.

I don't understand that either. I can only process what I saw with WL.
There was great blessing on the local church in the beginning, at least up to 1977, and I think up to 1988. Don Rutledge records it well. WL was not the center of the church before 1977, at least to us in Cleveland, and we felt we were one with all Christians, including those with different views than us.
When WL excommunicated all the ex-pastors and missionaries in the churches in 1988, the blessing had ended. We could not get any non-Chinese to join the church and stay. WL could still sometimes give a good message based on what the Lord had already given him, but the Lord didn't give him anything more. The new revelations WL saw after that were all destructive, as far as I know.

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

I remember some time ago coming across Lee admitting that he did much of his ministry with the natural life.

I don't remember that, but I commend him for that because it is honest.
That statement was probably pre 1977, or at least pre 1984.

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

So if we follow them, just remember that : the system you are giving all your life to is very much of the natural man.

Giving your life to a system is wrong, whether it is of the natural man or spiritual man.
I had done that until we had a church split in 2007 over the "one publication" edict. I had thought we were better than other Christians because I thought we were more dedicated to oneness, (at the expense of truth and honesty) and then we had a church spilt over something that other Christians would have fellowshipped about and handled maturely and been reconciled. We had an ex-pastor meeting with us then, and he said that he had seen many church splits, but never one that was so avoidable as this. And we had prided ourselves on Oneness. That told me that we were on the wrong road. The right road was what we had been on before WL became the center of the church - following Christ, the Spirit, the Bible and our spirit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

We, and they today, made/make more of Nee and Lee than they deserve/deserved, or could live up to ... except as personality cult leaders ... that had to come from their natural man.

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

Maybe the reason Lee saw the natural man in scripture is cuz he was looking thru his own natural man glasses.

I don't know. But I agree. When I look at scripture thru my natural man, I see lots of natural man stuff in it.

10-12-2018 07:36 PM

awareness

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by VoiceInWilderness

It is in Lily Hsu's book, My Unforgettable Memories:Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church
which Awareness told me about.
https://www.amazon.com/My-Unforgetta...table+memories

The book is detailed and well corroborated.

At the end of the pdf version, there are links to appendices. Near the end of the list is "Li Yuanru and Wang Peizhen" (who are Ruth Lee and Peace Wang). That was the saddest part of the whole book.

Thanks Steve. Truth be told, if I hadn't already lost faith in Nee, Lily Hsu's book would have turned me into an atheist.

I'm still dumbfounded that, a man on the one side can be a powerful spiritual minister and leader, and then on the other side be, a man of the flesh. David does come to mind. Still, both had to pay for it.

I remember some time ago coming across Lee admitting that he did much of his ministry with the natural life. So if we follow them, just remember that : the system you are giving all your life to is very much of the natural man. We, and they today, made/make more of Nee and Lee than they deserve/deserved, or could live up to ... except as personality cult leaders ... that had to come from their natural man.

Maybe the reason Lee saw the natural man in scripture is cuz he was looking thru his own natural man glasses.

I don't know. But I agree. When I look at scripture thru my natural man, I see lots of natural man stuff in it.

10-12-2018 05:50 PM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by VoiceInWilderness

At the end of the pdf version [of Lily Hsu's book] there are links to appendices. Near the end of the list is "Li Yuanru and Wang Peizhen" (who are Ruth Lee and Peace Wang). That was the saddest part of the whole book.

I remember reading about Ruth Lee from several sources, including a prominent spot in WL's "The Seer of the Divine Revelation". Don't remember that part. Thanks for bringing it up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wright Doyle

For a variety of reasons, including the anti-Western movement of the 1920s, many Chinese Christian leaders were seeking ways to form indigenous churches that would be free from Western missionary control. Having moved to the International Settlement in Shanghai in 1926, Ni constituted in 1932 a group of “apostolic” co-workers that would lead what became the Little Flock Movement: Wang Peizhen (Peace Wang) and Li Yuanru (Ruth Lee), with Ni himself as supreme. They soon grew from a small household gathering to a network of local churches.

Amazing, to consider the toll of human lives that followed in the wake of WN & WL. From those who lost faith when Nee was exposed, to the "storms" of WL in Taiwan & U.S.A, the Krazy Kults that sprung up in the PRC, the "Great Rebellion" of TC & DYL, Daystar, Philip Lee, Max Rappoport, John Ingalls. . . add it up. It's a lot.

Then contrast to, say, Leland Wang, another Margaret Barber disciple, who co-founded the Church in Shanghai in his living room and was later called the "Chinese Billy Graham". How big was the human toll after him?

10-12-2018 05:20 PM

VoiceInWilderness

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

While the Spirit is still speaking, I too would like to know the source(s) of these details. Ruth Lee & Peace Wang were early founding sisters in the Nee movement. I might be wrong, but I don't remember these details in Lily Hsu's book, nor in Kinnear's Against the Tide.

Brother Voice must have different sources, or I missed it in my readings. Maybe he'll share them, or school me.

10-12-2018 06:26 AM

awareness

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by VoiceInWilderness

As you know, the 2 sisters were imprisoned by the communists and recanted their faith. Ruth Lee was taken to prison camps where she preached that Christianity was a lie. Peace Wang reported other Christians for praying, causing them to be beaten. It didn't help either one of them to get out of prison.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

I didn't know this. How much of this history has been covered over! Amazing. I think the adage is appropriate, that if you don't learn the lessons of the past, you tend to relive them.

10-12-2018 02:33 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by VoiceInWilderness

I didn't know this. How much of this history has been covered over! Amazing. I think the adage is appropriate, that if you don't learn the lessons of the past, you tend to relive them.

10-11-2018 08:04 AM

awareness

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Hey Steve, thanks for your reply.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VoiceInWilderness

You are very welcome, bro.
One of the bros here, Rick Coleman, knows you.

How, when, where?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ViW

I am thinking about the sad end of W. Nee's coworkers, Ruth Lee and Peace Wang. They were great servants of the Lord. They were not W. Nee rubber stamps. When it was found out that W. Nee had taken advantage of a sister coworker, both of them were righteously indignant and supported excommunicating WN.
When WL brought WN back, without any apology on WN's part, those 2 sisters went against what they knew was right, and from then on followed WN blindly.
When the communists exposed WN's sin above + against a 2nd sister coworker that no one had known about, the faith of Ruth Lee and Peace Wang was shattered. Apparently their faith was not in Christ or the Bible but in WN.
As you know, the 2 sisters were imprisoned by the communists and recanted their faith. Ruth Lee was taken to prison camps where she preached that Christianity was a lie. Peace Wang reported other Christians for praying, causing them to be beaten. It didn't help either one of them to get out of prison.
I wonder if your faith was in WL rather than in Christ and the Bible?

It was lack of faith in Witness Lee that got me the boot. It was lack of faith in myself for joining Lee that put me on a track to learn about everything I took for granted, including Christ and the Bible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ViW

We also prayed for you at our Bible Study yesterday.

Thanks so much. I can use 'em. Reminds me of Wednesday night Bible study.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ViW

I'll address this subject later. I want to give the Holy Spirit a little time to speak to you without me drowning it out.

The Spirit doesn't need time. There's plenty in this modern life that drowns it out. But the Spirit can speak in uploads at the speed of light ... or faster ... at the speed of thought.

Thanks brother. I'll let that happen.

10-11-2018 07:10 AM

VoiceInWilderness

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

You are very welcome, bro.
One of the bros here, Rick Coleman, knows you.

I am thinking about the sad end of W. Nee's coworkers, Ruth Lee and Peace Wang. They were great servants of the Lord. They were not W. Nee rubber stamps. When it was found out that W. Nee had taken advantage of a sister coworker, both of them were righteously indignant and supported excommunicating WN.
When WL brought WN back, without any apology on WN's part, those 2 sisters went against what they knew was right, and from then on followed WN blindly.
When the communists exposed WN's sin above + against a 2nd sister coworker that no one had known about, the faith of Ruth Lee and Peace Wang was shattered. Apparently their faith was not in Christ or the Bible but in WN.
As you know, the 2 sisters were imprisoned by the communists and recanted their faith. Ruth Lee was taken to prison camps where she preached that Christianity was a lie. Peace Wang reported other Christians for praying, causing them to be beaten. It didn't help either one of them to get out of prison.
I wonder if your faith was in WL rather than in Christ and the Bible?
We also prayed for you at our Bible Study yesterday.

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

But back to brother Lee. Did Witness Lee ever do anything we would consider "out of character?" What about, saying that the saints that lost their money on Daystar "lost their virginity?" Was that in character?

I could list more. But just one is enough to prove that Lee did things that we would consider out of character. To be honest, Witness Lee's character was full of unpredictable cognitive dissonance producing contradictions and surprises.

I'll address this subject later. I want to give the Holy Spirit a little time to speak to you without me drowning it out.

10-09-2018 07:12 PM

awareness

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by VoiceInWilderness

Harold, you understand then, that you have lost your salvation.

Hebrews 3: 12 Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God.
13 But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called "today," that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.
15 As it is said, "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion."

We prayed for you in the prayer meeting tonight to hear His voice and not harden your heart, and for the Lord to grant you repentance.

Oh my goodness, I'm gobsmacked. It's come full circle. My early days in the church was in the church in Detroit. And now the church in Detroit is praying for me.

Thank you, thank you, brother, for your prayers, and for the burden for me in your heart.

But I don't feel I have anything to repent for. I feel that I'm okay with God, and God is okay with me ... tho I don't deserve it.

Thanks again brother.

But back to brother Lee. Did Witness Lee ever do anything we would consider "out of character?" What about, saying that the saints that lost their money on Daystar "lost their virginity?" Was that in character?

I could list more. But just one is enough to prove that Lee did things that we would consider out of character. To be honest, Witness Lee's character was full of unpredictable cognitive dissonance producing contradictions and surprises.

10-09-2018 06:09 PM

VoiceInWilderness

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

You are right. We wouldn't know about Jesus without the Bible. There's no other outside evidence of him ... except a few references like in Josephus, and even that has been meddled with ... and man-handled.

10-09-2018 01:20 PM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by JJ

Thanks guys for your good counsel to awareness. A hearty amen to it!

Also, I was at the “training” that Witness Lee mocked some of the saints for singing “His mercy endures forever” from the Psalms. So I am a witness of that. He wanted them to sing from Ephesians and other epistles of Paul and his footnotes on them instead. So, the next training (on Corinthians) saints had prepared some songs that used verses from Corinthians and others from his footnotes. I never heard “His mercy endures forever” sung again.

JJ

JJ thanks for speaking up. The more the LSM apologists try to assert something never happened, the more people need to say, "No, something did happen here".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Not only that but the exhortation was repeated with slightly different language in Colossians 3:16. So Ephesians 5 wasn't a slip of the pen. Paul repeated the exhortation to another congregation. In one of WL's "high peak" epistles, no less.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

In 1978 Lee taught, "Whatever is in the Bible ... is the Word of God."

In 1995 Lee taught, "Not every word in the Bible is the word of God."

Even if you take his second statement as provable, in that Manoah said something dumb to his wife, and Job and his friends argued over arcane theology, and Peter said, "Not so Lord! This will never happen to you!", and Satan speaks in Genesis 3 (etc), notice that my first point in this thread was not "every word in Psalm 1,3,4,5,6,7,9,11,12,13,14,15,17,18,19,20,21 is a word of God or a word of Christ."

No, my point was, "Perhaps there's more Christ in the first 21 Psalms than just Psalms 2,8, and 16". That was all I was trying to say.

And Drake tried to change it, to saying that I was implying that "every word of the Psalms must reveal Christ". No, that's a false choice set. I was just saying perhaps there's more. That's all I was saying, by starting this thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

I think there is some Christ to be found in more than 3 of the first 21 Psalms. .

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

I will mention why I think Christ possibly found in Psalms 1, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 17, 18, 19, 20, and 21 in the next post. Maybe, just maybe, Lee fit the Palms into a "Procrustean bed" and cut off some of the Christ waiting to be seen there.

Those are quotes from my first 2 posts on this thread. I didn't say that every word in those 18 Psalms had to be "Christ" or "of Christ" or "a word of God" (the last one meaning revelation of God v/v WL's 'man's fallen concept').

What WL seems to be saying, by contrast, is that every word of 18 of the first 21 Psalms is "of the tree of knowledge of good and evil" and not "of the tree of life". Because that's how he framed his introductory commentary in Psalm 1, a "natural" psalm (so-called), and this dismissive tone is continued in the ensuing footnotes. Again I covered this in detail the first 20 or so posts I submitted. In the RecV, a number of psalms get no comment, and those that do, the brief comment is not favorable, but is dismissive: "natural", "mixed sentiment" etc.

I merely said that perhaps there is "more Christ" in the Psalms than WL would let on. I didn't say every word had to be demonstrably "Christ".

You might wonder, well, why is my opinion superior to that of WL? He says "no Christ" and I say "perhaps more Christ". I prefer my option because 1) it's more in line with the NT pattern of reception of the Psalms, and 2) because Jesus said, "Seek and ye shall find". In the first 21 Psalms WL said, "No, don't seek. Nothing there." (Unless he was forced to by NT usage [i.e. Psalm 2,8,16]). No, I'd rather seek. I gave examples in Psalm 3, 6, and 18 where I found some profit. So I continue to dig.

"Oh the riches/Oh the riches/Christ my Saviour has for me" Again, from Post #2:

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

I have not covered Psalms 2 through 150 ... But I hope my point from Psalm 1 is made adequately, none the less, and is suggestive of further riches thus far ignored.

10-09-2018 12:24 PM

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

10-09-2018 11:13 AM

Ohio

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

I remember hearing that too. Lee used that to mock all Christianity for supposedly only knowing God's O.T. "mercy."

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

News flash, the so - called "high peak epistles" of Ephesians and Corinthians advise the saints to sing the Psalms. So why sing Ephesians if you don't follow it? And yes, he mocked the psalm-singers. He didn't just say, "Don't sing the Psalms", he imitated them in a shaming way. Then he said, "Better to sing from Ephesians".

Lee called Gal-Eph-Phil-Col the "Heart of the divine revelation," and even put these four books together in a pamphlet. I am perfectly fine with that, but for him to constantly promote "being filled in spirit," and dodge this serious N.T. exhortation about the Psalms (Eph 5.18-19) was a little crazy.

In 1978 Lee taught, "Whatever is in the Bible ... is the Word of God."

In 1995 Lee taught, "Not every word in the Bible is the word of God."

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

And didn't someone see WL spit on Lang's book on the podium? Remember that the man was a 'charismatic' - a showman - who loved tossing red meat to his audience, which would then be toned down, sorry 'polished', by his editors before being printed, making him seem the picture of rectitude and decorum. Nigel Tomes had a thread on this.

Hundreds saw Lee spit at that Rosemead Conference. It was a defining moment for many, as noted in Ingalls' account. Prior to that Lee was a vocal supporter of G.H. Lang as Tomes wrote. This becomes strong evidence to refute LSM's contention that the "New Way" was only Lee's burden to evangelize the whole earth. Actually, no, his goal was the takeover of every LC. Lang's book The Churches of God exposes those intentions, based on Exclusive Brethren actions of the 19th Century.

10-09-2018 10:33 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

That settles it. His not seeing trumps my seeing. ...

I saw WL mock singing the psalms, "His mercy endureth forever" from the podium. He said it was "low". Then he said, "why not sing something from Ephesians?" (No, I don't remember what year. But I saw it and it's been corroborated on this forum).

News flash, the so - called "high peak epistles" of Ephesians and Corinthians advise the saints to sing the Psalms. So why sing Ephesians if you don't follow it?

And didn't someone see WL spit on Lang's book on the podium? Remember that the man was a 'charismatic' - a showman - who loved tossing red meat to his audience, which would then be toned down, sorry 'polished', by his editors before being printed, making him seem the picture of rectitude and decorum. Nigel Tomes had a thread on this.

So I wouldn't put it past him.

And yes, he mocked the psalm-singers. He didn't just say, "Don't sing the Psalms", he imitated them in a shaming way. Then he said, "Better to sing from Ephesians".

I know Drake may say, "So what" to my points. But maybe God will say "so what" to WL's points - he'll say, "Didn't I give 2,486 messages? Didn't I set up 425 churches, (only 85 of which 'rebelled')? Didn't my completed works fill 130 volumes and 3,296 pages?"

God will say, "so what"

10-09-2018 08:36 AM

Ohio

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by VoiceInWilderness

The Life Study is really ugly. I think WL had lost a lot of his mind by the time he gave the Psalms messages, but we in the LC were still following him blindly.

I would be far more lenient on W. Lee (and all elderly in general) if the decline we witnessed were simply mental in nature.

Lee protected his profligate son Philip, who regularly molested the LSM staff, by libelously attacking the credibility of life-long colleagues and co-workers. Then he claimed his ministry reached the "high peak" by purporting that his loyal followers were "becoming God."

I would suggest that this was not a failure of the mind, but of the conscience. Paul warned us to "hold faith and a good conscience" lest we become "shipwrecked." (I Tim 1.19)

10-09-2018 07:14 AM

awareness

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Yep. I never saw Brother Lee do that or anything like it. That would be way out of character.

That settles it. His not seeing trumps my seeing. And Drake must be Ron Kangas, or someone that's spent more time with Lee than Kangas, to really know what's out of character for Lee --- which means we're in the presence of a blended brother.

10-09-2018 07:03 AM

aron

Re: Concluding remarks on Psalm 18

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

Psalm 42:7 Deep calls to deep in the roar of your waterfalls; all your waves and breakers have swept over me.

Jonah 2:3 You hurled me into the depths, into the very heart of the seas, and the currents swirled about me; all your waves and breakers swept over me.

It seems either Jonah saw himself living out the psalmist's vision, or vice versa. And the image of being buried in deep waters appears fairly often in the Psalms for some reason.

Thus we can see two textual witnesses of Jesus' experience within the earth. "Just as Jonah was 3 days and nights in the belly of the whale, so shall be the Son of Man three days and nights in the heart of the earth."

Arguably those are the three most important days in history. So to have a kind of corroborated record, even if it's in impressionistic poetry, should be of some interest.

Now, should we reject the poetic "water burial" images in Psalm 42 (and Psalm 18) as "natural" because the psalmist was a sinner, or because he expressed contempt for his enemies instead of blessing them? Because the NT receives similar verses as indicative of Christ. See e.g. Psalm 45 "your arrows are sharp in the heart of your enemies". And David's failure (to resurrect in Psalm 16) being explained by Peter in Acts 2 as overcome by his vision of the promised Seed. David's failure does not preclude Christ's victory.

So if we insist on rejection, does our rejection follow the pattern of reception in the NT, both in gospel, even at Jesus' mouth, and later in Acts and epistles? If we are "adding to God's word" as Evangelical says, then isn't calling the two living birds of Leviticus 14 "Christ" because they are clean and fly above the earth also "adding to God's word"?

WL did stuff selectively.. when he did it, it was okay, but when someone else did it they were "departing from the pattern of the NT" or some such.

10-09-2018 02:32 AM

Ohio

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Yep. I never saw Brother Lee do that or anything like it. That would be way out of character.

Except for those who attended the Rosemead Conference referenced in John Ingalls' book Speaking The Truth in Love.

10-08-2018 08:35 PM

Drake

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by VoiceInWilderness

I checked with a brother that was at the Kingdom Training. He said that did not happen. He also said WL would never have done that. Your testimony is completely uncorroborated.

Yep. I never saw Brother Lee do that or anything like it. That would be way out of character.

Drake

10-08-2018 08:09 PM

awareness

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by VoiceInWilderness

The 25% of OT preserved in the DSS, 1,000 years older than the oldest Masoretic text, agrees basically word for word with the Masoretic text. It is proof how God has preserved His word.

Awareness, you say you have faith in God, not man, but the God we have faith in is defined by the Bible.

Do you know for sure that the Son of God became a man, died for our sins, and rose bodily from the dead? If you know that for sure, then how do you know it for sure? If you don't know that, then you have lost your faith.

10-08-2018 05:41 PM

VoiceInWilderness

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

Well He didn't preserve that much in the Dead Sea Scrolls ; 25% of the OT, and none of the New Testament was preserved. And if we're talking God preserving "His Word," then we have to honor His preservation of the Nag Hammadi finds ; the so called Gnostic writings. God preserved them.

10-08-2018 10:57 AM

awareness

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

The discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls has forever proven God's promise to preserve His word as an indelible witness to all mankind.

10-08-2018 07:48 AM

Ohio

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by VoiceInWilderness

It sounds like you are saying that God was unable to preserve His own word, which He promised to preserve.
Ps 12:6 Pure words are the words of the LORD,
tried as silver is tried,
tested in a furnace of earth,
seven times purified.
7 Thou shalt keep them and preserve them,
from this generation forever.

The discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls has forever proven God's promise to preserve His word as an indelible witness to all mankind.

10-08-2018 07:24 AM

awareness

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by VoiceInWilderness

Right on topic. Interesting verses. Aron started this thread concerning Lee's claim that, some of the Psalms aren't the word of the Lord.

And that's possible because, according to the Christian view of the Bible, God gave man a free will. That means scribes have free will and can, if so inclined, change what's being copied, or transcribed. The overwhelming evidence is, over the years, after copies after copies, we find, that has happened. And we don't have any original - autograph - copies of the books of the Bible, to be able to get at the pure - untampered with - word of God.

The Bible tells us to put our faith in God, and to not put our trust in man. And, sorry, but the Bible has been man-handled, by men of free will.

Thanks for the great verses brother. Does Lee consider them of the Lord, or of man?

10-07-2018 02:33 PM

VoiceInWilderness

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

I think it's possible that you are confusing the Bible with the manuscripts. And you are right. I have lost my faith ... in man ... cuz he tampered with the manuscripts of the NT, or was a clumsy scribe with the Word of God.

10-07-2018 05:34 AM

awareness

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by VoiceInWilderness

What I understood is that you went way beyond those guys in saying that the Bible has errors.

10-07-2018 04:07 AM

Ohio

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by VoiceInWilderness

Like Christine Ford's testimony, that doesn't make it true or false.
It needs some corroboration.
Who was in the meeting with you? How did you get there? How did you get home? What city was it in?

But he doesn't fly in airplanes any more and can't figure out which front door to use.

10-07-2018 03:55 AM

VoiceInWilderness

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

I don't think I have a dog in the fight concerning the wrong human concepts claim. You must be confusing me with some other Lee supporter out here.

What I understood is that you went way beyond those guys in saying that the Bible has errors.

10-06-2018 07:56 PM

awareness

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by VoiceInWilderness

To be saved we need to be assured of the incarnation, crucifixion and resurrection of Christ. If you don't know that the Bible is true, how can you keep that assurance?

When the Bible warns us not to commit certain sins, how can you stand firm, when you may think, those warnings were just Peter's wrong human concepts?

I don't think I have a dog in the fight concerning the wrong human concepts claim. You must be confusing me with some other Lee supporter out here.

10-06-2018 07:30 PM

VoiceInWilderness

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

I don't follow brother. How does that have anything to do with my faith?

10-06-2018 06:55 PM

awareness

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by VoiceInWilderness

Because it appears to me that you have lost your faith.

I don't follow brother. How does that have anything to do with my faith?

10-06-2018 06:41 PM

VoiceInWilderness

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

Goodness brother. There is no YouTube of it. Why is this troubling you so?

Because it appears to me that you have lost your faith.

10-06-2018 06:34 PM

awareness

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by VoiceInWilderness

Like Christine Ford's testimony, that doesn't make it true or false.
It needs some corroboration.
Who was in the meeting with you? How did you get there? How did you get home? What city was it in?

Goodness brother. There is no YouTube of it. Why is this troubling you so?

10-06-2018 06:26 PM

VoiceInWilderness

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

Did I mention that some wouldn't like it?

Like Christine Ford's testimony, that doesn't make it true or false.
It needs some corroboration.
Who was in the meeting with you? How did you get there? How did you get home? What city was it in?

10-06-2018 05:59 PM

awareness

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by VoiceInWilderness

I checked with a brother that was at the Kingdom Training. He said that did not happen. He also said WL would never have done that.

Your testimony is completely uncorroborated.

Did I mention that some wouldn't like it?

10-06-2018 05:44 PM

VoiceInWilderness

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

Well if you've ever tried to tear a Whitepages up, you'll know that you just can't tear books up willy-nilly (unless you're superman). And Lee may have been many things, but he wasn't that.

Did he tear some pages out of what everyone saw to be a Bible, and throw it on the floor, and jump on it? Yes he did. And there's no way to confuse bro Lee with any others. It happened. I saw it.

I was impressed. I grew up Bible! Bible! Bible! and more Bible! I knew there was more. And Lee was pointing to that. My being was filled with AMENS!

I remember it well. It was exciting.

Haha ... good one brother.

And ... no insult meant ... but maybe what you think you know about Lee is wrong.

And I didn't know Lee before he came to America. Face it, we don't know, and can't know, the entire Lee. We only know what little we saw of him ... at most the last two decades of his life. I would have never thought Lee would compromise his own ministry, to cover for his bad boys, but he did. And I could go on.

Check with Aron. I think he mentioned seeing something like it.

I checked with a brother that was at the Kingdom Training. He said that did not happen. He also said WL would never have done that.

Your testimony is completely uncorroborated.

10-06-2018 07:10 AM

awareness

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I evaluate everything on its merits. If Lee did that and if it was wrong,

I didn't think there was anything wrong with it. I thought his point was valid and right on.

Now, those that have idolized the Bible won't agree.

10-06-2018 12:52 AM

HERn

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Just like Moses receiving a new set of stone tablets to replace the ones he broke.

Yeah, just like it. Tomorrow you're going to get schooled by the smarter Evangelical.

10-06-2018 12:47 AM

Evangelical

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by HERn

Keep it coming brother! So Lee paid for his sins by writing a new version of the Bible? Actually it was Kerry and associates who wrote your Recovery version. Actually God wrote the Bible.

Just like Moses receiving a new set of stone tablets to replace the ones he broke.

10-06-2018 12:46 AM

HERn

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I evaluate everything on its merits. If Lee did that and if it was wrong, He more than made up for it by writing a new bible version and hundreds of books.

Keep it coming brother! So Lee paid for his sins by writing a new version of the Bible? Actually it was Kerry and associates who wrote your Recovery version. Actually God wrote the Bible.

10-06-2018 12:42 AM

Evangelical

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by HERn

Whatever Evangelical this is I love your honesty. "If Lee did it there is nothing wrong with it". Does your opinion extend to everything Lee has done?

I evaluate everything on its merits. If Lee did that and if it was wrong, He more than made up for it by writing a new bible version and hundreds of books.

10-06-2018 12:29 AM

HERn

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

If Lee did do that, there's nothing wrong with it - Moses smashed clay tablets chiseled by God Himself.

Whatever Evangelical this is I love your honesty. "If Lee did it there is nothing wrong with it". Does your opinion extend to everything Lee has done?

10-05-2018 11:29 PM

Evangelical

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

If Lee did do that, there's nothing wrong with it - Moses smashed clay tablets chiseled by God Himself.

10-05-2018 08:48 PM

leastofthese

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

While learning CPR Witness Lee actually brought the practice dummy to life.

10-05-2018 08:38 PM

awareness

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by VoiceInWilderness

Awareness, From what I know of WL this could not have happened.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ViW

I think what maybe happened to Christine Ford's memory has happened to your memory of this incident.

Haha ... good one brother.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ViW

Maybe someone else did this. Or maybe WL tore up something else.

And ... no insult meant ... but maybe what you think you know about Lee is wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ViW

I was not saved until 1975, in the church in Cleveland, so that was before my time.

And I didn't know Lee before he came to America. Face it, we don't know, and can't know, the entire Lee. We only know what little we saw of him ... at most the last two decades of his life. I would have never thought Lee would compromise his own ministry, to cover for his bad boys, but he did. And I could go on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ViW

There are a couple bros here in Detroit who were in the LC before 1971. I will ask them.

Check with Aron. I think he mentioned seeing something like it.

10-05-2018 07:18 PM

VoiceInWilderness

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

1970-1971 ... some where then. It was a big conference. Maybe The Kingdom Conference. It's been a long time. I remember it because it blew my mind. I loved it.

Awareness, From what I know of WL this could not have happened.

I think what maybe happened to Christine Ford's memory has happened to your memory of this incident. Maybe someone else did this. Or maybe WL tore up something else.

I was not saved until 1975, in the church in Cleveland, so that was before my time.

There are a couple bros here in Detroit who were in the LC before 1971. I will ask them.

10-05-2018 07:12 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

I remember the first time Lee shocked me. At a conference he got so worked up about it "not being about the Bible" that, he tore one up on stage and stopped on it.

Now that's some pretty serious lopping off of scripture.

I saw, and heard of, similar expressions by WL, even if not so blatant and shocking as what you saw. How to characterize this? Perhaps "dismissed" would be better. Or "disregarded", or "minimized". How about "rendered to no effect"? Or Lee's favorite word, "nullified"? How about, "Lee's teachings nullified, on a wholesale basis, the divine basis of OT scripture in his exposition of the Psalms?

One word often used is "reception", as in "the reception of Psalms in the Book of Hebrews". There's a pretty good book on that, by Gert Steyn.

https://www.amazon.com/Psalms-Hebrew.../dp/0567198847

My point has been this: When you look at the pattern of reception of the Psalms in the NT, where's a precedent to call 18 of the first 21 Psalms "natural human concepts", "mixed sentiments", "fallen" and so forth? Where's the invitation to do this based on the pattern of NT reception of these texts?

Apparently, WL took it upon himself; the chief basis seems to be Luther having called James "an epistle of straw", a point that Luther later reversed. Other than that, it was his own (fallen human) logic that led him there. We've shown numerous examples where this is self-contradictory. Talk about natural concepts!

Where's the NT basis to reject 18 of the first 21 Psalms as "natural", i.e. not divinely inspired revelation, a trend that WL kept up through the whole 150 chapters? And don't use Luther as your source - use some apostolic basis for your interpretation. Paul wrote that the Psalms were "words of Christ" and said you'd be "filled in Spirit" singing them - where does he or any other NT writer or speaker say that they are "natural" and "fallen"? We see plenty of examples in the NT of using Psalms for inspiration; where does the NT writer or speaker tell us to avoid it for its natural concepts?

10-04-2018 07:35 PM

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by VoiceInWilderness

You're very welcome bro. Thank you for you comments.
I actually found that truth liberating also.
You might like the song I made out of Psalm 26 about the working together of faith and works.
http://www.voiceinwilderness.info/psalm_26.htm

Wow! Thanks for sending the link to your web site. I’m blown away. Looks like an amazing resource.

Peace and grace to you in Christ.

JJ

10-04-2018 06:50 PM

awareness

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by VoiceInWilderness

When was that?

1970-1971 ... some where then. It was a big conference. Maybe The Kingdom Conference. It's been a long time. I remember it because it blew my mind. I loved it.

10-04-2018 06:07 PM

VoiceInWilderness

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by JJ

This whole thread took an interesting tangent with a great discussion about the inerrancy of scripture. But, I was struck and helped by the above post because when I reread some of “the go to verses” in the New Testament (including those cited in this thread) they support this thought. First here are links to the verses I checked:

https://biblehub.com/blb/luke/24.htm

https://biblehub.com/2_timothy/3-16.htm

https://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/10-11.htm

I was struck with this. In Luke 24 Jesus was able to point out during part of a 7 mile walk (say 6 hours?) the parts of scripture (Old Testament of course) that were about himself. Then what exactly do the other verses say scripture is for?
“profitable for instruction, for conviction, for correction, and for training in righteousness” and “these things happened to them as types and were written for our admonition..”, they don’t say “are all about Christ” nor “are all about Christ and the church”, nor “are all about God’s economy”.

I don’t know about you, but I find that liberating. Thanks VoiceInWilderness!
No more hunting every scripture to see how it is about Christ (what I’ve been burdened with).

10-04-2018 05:06 PM

VoiceInWilderness

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Steve,

Let’s start this part of the conversation with Peter since you used him in your second example and his use of Psalm 34.

Peter was a divinely inspired author.

Did Peter express any erroneous human concepts?

Thanks
Drake

Peter did not write any erroneous human concepts into his epistles which are part of the Bible, nor in his messages in Acts.

Of course Peter as a Christian human being said things that were wrong, but not as a writer of the Bible.

Did Bro Lee say any erroneous human concepts?

10-04-2018 04:51 PM

VoiceInWilderness

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

When was that?

10-04-2018 04:15 PM

Evangelical

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin

Wwutt? You got it wrong there pal.

Constructive criticism would be helpful. You're the Reformed expert here

Your chance to shine bro.

10-04-2018 03:09 PM

Kevin

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Allow me to explain:

God caused/inspired a mistake - this is the Calvinist perspective
God used a mistake or "allowed it to happen" - this is the Arminian perspective

These are two different perspectives about God's sovereignty. How do you see it? You might not see the two different perspectives if you are already decided on a position.

Wwutt? You got it wrong there pal.

10-04-2018 05:35 AM

zeek

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

How did they know?

10-03-2018 04:12 PM

Evangelical

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeek

To say that God inspired a mistake as opposed to that He used a mistake that was inspired by Satan or sin or human fallibility is not to say one thing from two different perspectives. A child could see the difference.I'm surprised you can't. In one case it's being asserted that God is the source of the error. In the other, God is using evil as an occasion for good as Jesus instructed us all to do following God's example.

10-03-2018 05:35 AM

zeek

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Not quite "changed" - I said one thing from two different perspectives. But I was only saying one thing - mistakes in the Bible (radically inspired or moderately conservatively used by God) are there because they are supposed to be (or allowed to be). It's another topic about God's sovereignty.

10-02-2018 08:38 PM

Evangelical

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeek

Now you've changed your position. God using a mistake as you are claiming now is different from God inspiring a mistake as you were claiming before. You went from radical to conservative in one post. I don't think the moderately conservatives here are going to have a problem with your position on this issue now. Those that maintain that the Bible is scientifically accurate will take issue with your statement about Moses and the Egyptian cosmology though.

10-02-2018 06:14 PM

zeek

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

10-02-2018 03:57 PM

Evangelical

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeek

I see. Well once again, here's your statement verbatim:

"Even the errors are divinely inspired. Just like Judas's betrayal of Christ. God can inspire human mistakes for His purpose."

So, to try to paraphrase, once again, first you're saying that mistakes in the Biblical text were God-breathed. Is that right? Second, you're saying that Judas's betrayal of Christ, not merely the account of it in the Bible, was God-breathed. Correct? Third, you're saying that the God-breathed errors in the Bible are the same as the God-breathed crime of Judas. Do I have that right?

I'm confused by your analysis. I will write again what I meant:

We can trust the original text is without error because...

If there are any errors in the original text, they were there by God's sovereign will.

Just because a human makes a mistake (like Judas), does not mean that mistake is outside of God's will. Mistakes do not mean we cannot trust the original manuscripts.

Now at this point someone might wonder - did God cause Judas to betray Christ and Judas was "doing God's will". Well no, I don't subscribe to that gnostic idea.

What I believe is that Judas made a mistake (and God knew he would make a mistake) and God used that mistake for His purpose. Similarly, God knew if the apostle Paul would make a mistake in the original text, and God would use that for His purpose, somehow.

So any mistakes by the apostle Paul or Moses, God will use for His purpose.

An example of mistakes I can give is about science. It has mistakes about science, for example, such as the Egyptian cosmology, but that's okay because God used Moses's Egyptian view of science for His purpose - to explain to Job how He created the Earth, for example. For us today, it makes nice poetry, God hammering out the bronze dome of the Earth and putting pillars underneath it so it cannot be moved. The reality is the Earth moves and wobbles all over the place. Moses would fail a science test at school today.

Egyptian cosmology in the bible is an example of an "inspired error" but because of confusion around that terminology ("does God inspire errors?"), I prefer to say - "errors by a fallible human who was inspired".

Moses was inspired, He communicated the truths that God wanted Him to communicate accurately and without error, but he also communicated errors about science, to him they were not mistakes but the best of his knowledge at the time, to us they are errors.

10-02-2018 08:12 AM

awareness

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Lopped off just hit my funny bone. Thomas Jefferson lopped off scripture, by literally cutting and pasting.

Did Lee do that? Did he cut the human verses out of the RcV?

I remember the first time Lee shocked me. At a conference he got so worked up about it "not being about the Bible" that, he tore one up on stage and stopped on it.

Now that's some pretty serious lopping off of scripture.

And a good point ... even if Bibliolatrist's don't like it.

10-02-2018 03:43 AM

zeek

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Yes it is about the Bible but you joined the sentences together and it sounds as if Judas's betrayal of Christ is a biblical error. I used two sentences to try and avoid that confusion.

10-02-2018 02:09 AM

Ohio

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

“dismissal”? That is a synonym for your accusation that Brother Lee “lopped off” Scripture which you already recanted.

“...the human concept of the holy writers was produced out of their good nature created by God, formed with the traditions of their holy race, constituted with the teachings of the Holy Scriptures, promoted by their practice of a holy life, and uttered out of their holy sentiments and impressions.”

You may disagree with Brother Lee’s POV but he never wholesale dismissed scripture. The explanation he provides above (Psalm 1: Footnote 1) attests to his careful consideration of cutting straight the word of God, the book of Psalms, not dismissing it.

Drake

You must be the only LC member who actually reads all the fine print.

Most LC members only remember not to read the book of James, and numerous Psalms, Proverbs, etc.

Why even read the Bible when those HWfMR's occupy all their time? And all those "glorious green books" on their shelves collecting dust

10-01-2018 08:41 PM

Drake

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

10-01-2018 07:46 PM

awareness

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

That's the kind of question I was hoping to avoid and sounds like a great topic on degenerate views.

lol ... Now, now. Be good.

10-01-2018 07:25 PM

Evangelical

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

Did God inspire the devil during the 40 day trial in the wilderness, when speaking to Jesus?

That's the kind of question I was hoping to avoid and sounds like a great topic on degenerate views.

10-01-2018 07:24 PM

awareness

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Yes it is about the Bible but you joined the sentences together and it sounds as if Judas's betrayal of Christ is a biblical error. I used two sentences to try and avoid that confusion.

Did God inspire the devil during the 40 day trial in the wilderness, when speaking to Jesus?

10-01-2018 04:38 PM

Evangelical

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeek

Here's an exact quote of what you stated cut and pasted:

"Even the errors are divinely inspired. Just like Judas's betrayal of Christ. God can inspire human mistakes for His purpose."

Here's my paraphrase of what you said in the form of a question:

"4) even the errors in the Bible are divinely inspired just like Judas's betrayal of Christ because God can inspire human mistakes for his purpose?"

I added "in the Bible" to supply context without quoting your entire post and "because" to make a causal connection that think you were implying. You do admit you were talking about the Bible, don't you?

Yes it is about the Bible but you joined the sentences together and it sounds as if Judas's betrayal of Christ is a biblical error. I used two sentences to try and avoid that confusion.

10-01-2018 03:14 PM

awareness

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

I asked where was the NT precedent for this kind of wholesale dismissal of scripture? No answer. Instead I get a "Who cares".

Yeah, he's willing to dismiss Lee's attack on the authenticity of Scripture, but when I mention the differences in the manuscripts, he accuses me of attacking the authenticity of scripture. And mine don't even question the authenticity of scripture, just the manuscripts.

And then Untohim deletes my posts, or moves them to Tartarus.

10-01-2018 01:33 PM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Well, you staked out a position and we all met you there to discuss it.

The position I staked out was that the ministry of Witness Lee deviated strongly from apostolic precedents in its reception of the Psalms, calling 18 of the first 21 psalms "natural human concepts"; I asked where was the NT precedent for this kind of wholesale dismissal of scripture? No answer. Instead I get a "Who cares".

Every fall, the LSM-captive assemblies send out tens of thousands of flyers to college freshmen, hoping to lure them into the thrall of WL's ministry. Perhaps some of these students will find the non-answer from the LSM apologist on this site as telling as I do.

10-01-2018 07:06 AM

Drake

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

Actually, what you said is that all a Psalms portray Christ. I responded to this in post #717.

Aron, you reserve the right to change your mind or admit you misspoke but it’s not accurate to say you never said it. Why is that important? Well, you staked out a position and we all met you there to discuss it. Thinking you had mistakenly and inadvertently driven a peg in the wrong place, I asked you at one point if your disagreement with Brother Lee was that you saw Christ in the Psalms in more places than he did because I intimated that if that was the case then, “so what?”. That was your out..... I was facilitating a path for you to a more reasonable and moderate position. I’m glad you have reconsidered and backed off that ardent and unreasonable stake in the ground.

So then, if your objection is that you see Christ in more Psalms than Brother Lee did then I ask again......so what?

Drake

10-01-2018 06:45 AM

Ohio

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trapped

This throws me off because I would not call Judas's betrayal of Christ an "error in the Bible". I would call it an "error recorded and portrayed in the Bible". These are two vastly different things. There are records and stories in the Bible of the errors people have made, but that isn't what most would describe as "an error in the Bible".

Unless you mean it is an error that it is recorded in the Bible at all.

Great points, Trapped.

Failures, even by great men of God, are recorded in the Bible for our admonition and encouragement, and that's why Paul tells us that "all scripture is God-breathed and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." (II Tim 3.16)

Even the betrayal by Judas, formerly Jesus' "familiar friend," (Psalm 41.9; 55.12-14) a trusted companion, warns us that it is never wise while following the Lord to compromise the truth, accept short term gains, condemn an innocent man, bear false witness, succumbing to filthy lucre, saving one's own skin -- all of which I saw when LSM's Blendeds held their Kangaroo Court at Whistler Resort to condemn and quarantine Titus Chu of Cleveland.

The Blendeds would be wise to learn all the lessons of Judas.

10-01-2018 06:05 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by JJ

I don’t know about you, but I find that liberating.

No more hunting every scripture to see how it is about Christ (what I’ve been burdened with).

I never said "every scripture is about Christ", or if I did I mis-spoke. What I said in the first couple of posts on this thread was that there is probably "more Christ" in the first 21 Psalms than merely Psalm 2,8, and 16.

I pointed out Psalm 3 and Psalm 6 and Psalm 18 as examples.

Drake and Evangelical will point out Job's companions speaking "naturally" &c; I likewise pointed out Manoah and his wife. But that was never the issue of this thread: it was rather, are 18 of the first 21 Psalms likewise "natural human concept"? That was my inquiry.

The NT reception gives us ample latitude to "see Jesus" a la Hebrews 2:9, in the types and figures of the OT. The pious Jew who loves God's word, who obeys, and is rewarded - "He rescued me (Christ) because He delighted in me" is an obvious example (from Psalm 18).

But I never insinuated that every word of Psalms, or Scripture, must be "Christ". The Psalmist writing in Psalm 51, "In sin I was conceived" doesn't sound like Christ to me.

To re-iterated my theme, WL departed from the apostolic precedent set in Acts 2 by Peter and Acts 13 by Paul in finding "Christ" in the Psalms. This pattern of reception and usage was similarly followed in Hebrews, Peter's epistle, and the four Gospels. The sinner David, in his struggle to find God, was a picture of the coming "Seed of David". And Asaph, Lemuel, etc. These "godly sentiments" were fulfilled by Jesus the Nazarene.

But no, not every single word has to be "Christ". I don't think that I ever suggested that. What I am saying is that there is a pattern of reception and usage in the NT, and we shouldn't be so quick, as WL was, to dismiss the pattern given us by the apostles and writers of the NT.

10-01-2018 05:30 AM

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by VoiceInWilderness

The problem with WL's treatment of Psalms (and Proverbs, Job, James and Peter) is not that he missed places that were about Christ.

The problem is that WL taught, especially later in his life, that if the Bible does not emphasize what WL emphasizes, then that part of the Bible is erroneous human concept.

There are many parts of the Bible, including Psalms that are not about Christ or the church. Most of Psalms show by experience how to live a godly, humble, down-to-earth, honest life. This is part of a balanced diet of the truth. WL said that such verses or whole Psalms or whole books were not the word of God, but are human concepts contrary to God's truth. I think this was WL's greatest error.

10-01-2018 05:16 AM

zeek

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Zeek misquoted me. That is not what I wrote at all.

10-01-2018 05:04 AM

zeek

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Zeek,

this was for discussion in Alternative Views, not on the Open Forum. If this can be further discussed there, would be better. You have the wrong context about number 3)

The first and second point was also taken out of context. You are missing the "Perhaps because.. " on point 2, which is offered as an open possibility for discussion and not an absolute statement of belief.

Points 1 and 2 are based on the following observations:

No one writes books about other books or topics which are finalized and completed. It implies that the Bible alone is insufficient.

Okay thank you for the clarification. You weren't stating that the Bible is insufficient. My mistake. But your statement is still untrue. People write books about completed books all the time.

10-01-2018 04:24 AM

Evangelical

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trapped

Zeek misquoted me. That is not what I wrote at all.

09-30-2018 11:07 PM

Trapped

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeek

Okay Drake, do you agree with Evangelical that:

4) even the errors in the Bible are divinely inspired just like Judas's betrayal of Christ because God can inspire human mistakes for his purpose?

09-30-2018 10:48 PM

Evangelical

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeek

I'll be happy to answer your question once you have answered mine. I didn't ask you to critique what Evangelical said. I just asked if you agreed with him. You freely express agreement and disagreement on this forum. Here are the questions again:

1) any believer could write a book of the Bible if they wanted to and that many do and that they call them books and sell them in bookstores?

2) the Bible alone is insufficient?

3) only the Recovery knows about being one spirit with the Lord and what that means?

4) even the errors in the Bible are divinely inspired just like Judas's betrayal of Christ because God can inspire human mistakes for his purpose?

I think Witness Lee would have disagreed with Evangelical's statement on questions 1 and 2. I'm less certain what he would have thought about 3. I think he may have recognized that Christians outside the Recovery could be one with the Lord in some matters. Number 4 is a troubling theological paradox that may be inescapable for the believer. So, I ask you again: what do you think?

Zeek,

this was for discussion in Alternative Views, not on the Open Forum. If this can be further discussed there, would be better. You have the wrong context about number 3)

09-30-2018 09:41 PM

zeek

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Sorry zeek. I missed your entry until now.

Rather than have me review and critique what Evangelical said, do you disagree with what I said?

Drake

09-30-2018 09:34 PM

Evangelical

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by VoiceInWilderness

Thanks for those links for both views. Both were spot on for what I had asked.
Based on both articles, Calvin believed strongly in the inerrancy of God's word. The article that argues against that is defining inerrancy in an extremely narrow way, and also plays a little semantics.
I don't think Calvin is very skilled with the OT.

Yes, I know Calvin is not a strong example, but Luther is. I still referred to Calvin because it is a matter of debate.

09-30-2018 11:51 AM

ZNPaaneah

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

I agree ZNP that one of the primary functions of Gods speaking is to operate within us. All Scripture is profitable in that way also.

Jesus in His divine eternal status as coequal in the Godhead is with and was God as the Word and this Word was incarnated, became flesh, and tabernacled among us. Some who beheld His glory, the glory of an Only Begotten Son, wrote down what they saw and that is included in the record in the Bible, Gods written and documented word to us. When we read the Bible or hear a message from the Bible with the Spirit then the written word becomes the instant word, a sword in function, the rhema, to operate in us, to divide the soul from the spirit.

Christ is the eternal Word, the Bible is the written word, and the Spiriit operates in us as the instant speaking word. These three uses of the “the word” are not interchangeable but all are Gods speaking to us in different formats, means, and ways.

That how i see the broader definition of the word.

Drake

Well then I feel this is true of Psalms, Job, Proverbs, and James.

09-30-2018 07:28 AM

Drake

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

Unfortunately we don't have any autograph copies of any of the NT books. So we can't correct the more variants in the over 5500 pieces of NT manuscripts than there are words in the NT.

Don't trust any scholar(s) that claim they know something about the NT autographs.

To believe they are inerrant is a matter of faith.

Nevertheless awareness, we can trust that God delivers to us His speaking in the canon of Holy Writ we call the Bible. Out of the thousands of MSS’s there is no substantive difference between them.

Drake

09-30-2018 07:19 AM

Drake

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeek

Okay Drake, do you agree with Evangelical that:

1) any believer could write a book of the Bible if they wanted to and that many do and that they call them books and sell them in bookstores?

2) the Bible alone is insufficient?

3) only the Recovery knows about being one spirit with the Lord and what that means?

4) even the errors in the Bible are divinely inspired just like Judas's betrayal of Christ because God can inspire human mistakes for his purpose?

Sorry zeek. I missed your entry until now.

Rather than have me review and critique what Evangelical said, do you disagree with what I said?

Drake

09-30-2018 07:02 AM

Drake

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

But there are other verses which say "thy word is truth" and that Jesus is the "incarnated word". Timothy says "the word of God is sharper than any two edged sword dividing soul from spirit", so rather than a "spiritual truth" I'd say it is a truth that is a two edged sword which divides soul from spirit.

09-30-2018 06:53 AM

Ohio

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Does expressing supposed "erroneous human concepts" undermine the truth? And how do we define "erroneous human concepts?"

Does the expression of "erroneous human concepts" disqualify an author or his writings in scripture?

I think this takes us down a very slippery slope indeed. The Apostle Paul apparently expressed a few "erroneous human concepts" himself both before and after his salvation. He was complicit to the stoning of Stephen. A little erroneous? He later celebrated the Passover and then took a vow in Jerusalem, which the Lord did not approve of.

It is WL once again sowing seeds of doubt concerning the word of God. If I remember correctly, it was the serpent in the garden who first started this trend. Once we open up this Pandora's Box of doubt, we will now have inbred suspicions cast on every verse. Does this then reduce us to the safety of "red letter" verses?

09-30-2018 06:48 AM

awareness

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

I am now studying the book of Job, and I am finding the hidden things of God everywhere. Just the other day I realized that Job was a righteous man who could not understand why God had forsaken him. The Father allowed him to taste this bitter agony in type -- the exact heart feeling of His Son when He cried out on the cross, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?" The word of God does not just speak to us in the obvious. Just as David tasted the agonizing pain of the crucified Christ, so did Job.

Maybe the Jesus story is everybody's story ....

09-30-2018 06:14 AM

Drake

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by VoiceInWilderness

There is no such thing in the Bible as spiritual truth or non-spiritual truth.
If you can find that in the Bible, then I'll stand corrected.
There is just truth. One package deal.

09-29-2018 08:57 PM

Ohio

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by VoiceInWilderness

Yes, it was cleaned up. I remember that the elders in Detroit strongly disagreed with the Job training because WL said that God's speaking there was not the word of God.

09-29-2018 06:55 PM

awareness

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I believe the original manuscripts are inerrant. I cannot say the same of the multitude of versions and translations, or our modern day understanding of the original manuscripts.

09-29-2018 06:05 PM

ZNPaaneah

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Ok Steve,

Here is where I think the disconnect lies. Someone being inspired by the Spirit to write something (now in the Bible) does not automatically make the thing written spiritual nor does it make it a spiritual truth.

Drake

09-29-2018 05:45 PM

VoiceInWilderness

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

With Calvin, it's a matter of debate.

These two articles present it from both sides.

https://postbarthian.com/2014/05/26/...-bible-errors/

https://www.etsjets.org/files/JETS-P...5-442_JETS.pdf

I believe the original manuscripts are inerrant. I cannot say the same of the multitude of versions and translations, or our modern day understanding of the original manuscripts.

What was more interesting to me was how their view, especially Luther's, seemed to differ from modern Reformers. Tracing the origins and history of biblical inerrancy doctrine seems to lead me closer to American fundamentalism than the actual teachings of early Reformers.

09-29-2018 05:34 PM

VoiceInWilderness

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Lee's more objectionable comments are continually edited out by his editorial staff.

Yes, it was cleaned up. I remember that the elders in Detroit strongly disagreed with the Job training because WL said that God's speaking there was not the word of God.

09-29-2018 05:29 PM

VoiceInWilderness

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

There is no such thing in the Bible as spiritual truth or non-spiritual truth.
If you can find that in the Bible, then I'll stand corrected.
There is just truth. One package deal.

09-29-2018 05:25 PM

VoiceInWilderness

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

1 Peter 3:10 does not match God's economy I think that's why.

God's real economy is what is defined in the whole NT, not parts that a man picks.

09-29-2018 10:57 AM

zeek

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

09-29-2018 06:53 AM

Drake

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by VoiceInWilderness

I posted the life study of WL on Ps 34. He said that David and Peter were not spiritual to say "Keep your tongue from evil and your lips from speaking guile". WL wrote that this divinely inspired human utterance in both Testaments is not spiritual. If it is not spiritual, how was it that David and Peter were inspired by the Holy Spirit to write it?

09-28-2018 08:18 PM

Ohio

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by VoiceInWilderness

So nothing. It's not a problem. I had remembered it as something worse from the live training.

Lee's more objectionable comments are continually edited out by his editorial staff.

09-28-2018 07:06 PM

Evangelical

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by VoiceInWilderness

Something can be a human concept and also be truth and profitable. Like math or verifiable science. Some concepts can be both human and divine, such as things that are witnessed to by our conscience.

Here is an example of what I mean by a statement that is both human and divinely inspired:
I posted the life study of WL on Ps 34. He said that David and Peter were not spiritual to say "Keep your tongue from evil and your lips from speaking guile". WL wrote that this divinely inspired human utterance in both Testaments is not spiritual. If it is not spiritual, how was it that David and Peter were inspired by the Holy Spirit to write it? WL says that Paul would never say such a thing, but Paul did many times. i.e. Eph 5:29.
Memorizing and singing this psalm helps me to keep my tongue from evil and my lips from speaking guile. It is not an unprofitable human concept as WL said. Neither is it a word about Christ. It is part of God's truth, and we need to live by every word of it. There is no such thing in the Bible as high truth and low truth. There is just "truth" and "the truth". It is a package deal. We need it all.

Can you give me an example of what you mean by something in the Psalms that helped you in the way you describe?

1 Peter 3:10 does not match God's economy I think that's why.

09-28-2018 06:57 PM

VoiceInWilderness

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

VoiceInWilderness> “Here is the quote about God's speaking in Job:
Much of the speaking in this book is ambiguous. This is the case not only of the speaking of Job, of his friends, and of Elihu, but to some extent it seems to be the case even of the speaking of Jehovah in 40:10-14. (Msg 29, p 155). I had remembered it as something worse. As it is in the Life Study, it is not heretical. “

Let’s deal with Job first.

Those verses are ambiguous.

So what?

Drake

So nothing. It's not a problem. I had remembered it as something worse from the live training.

09-28-2018 06:29 PM

Drake

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

09-28-2018 05:58 PM

VoiceInWilderness

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I don't think human concepts are necessarily erroneous...just human. I see David's human concepts as God accurately and without error, communicating the truth to us about human nature. David's human concepts show us the law and our inability to keep it. It points us to divine concepts found in Christ in the New Testament. Seeing David's human concepts is more practical to me than pretending everything he wrote is divine.

09-28-2018 05:28 PM

VoiceInWilderness

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Please provide the two quotes mentioned above. Let’s have a closer look.

Drake

Here is the quote about God's speaking in Job:
Much of the speaking in this book is ambiguous. This is
the case not only of the speaking of Job, of his friends, and
of Elihu, but to some extent it seems to be the case even of
the speaking of Jehovah in 40:10-14. (Msg 29, p 155).
I had remembered it as something worse. As it is in the Life Study, it is not heretical.

Here is the extended context of where WL said that Peter was wrong to quote Ps 34. It is Life-Study of the Psalms, msg 16, p. 203-4. I've highlighted the parts I think are beyond the realm of what a Christian should believe:
2. The Way to Fear God
In Psalm 34 David spoke of the way to fear God (vv. 11-16;
1 Pet. 3:10-12). Verses 12-16 say, ‘‘Who is the man who desires
life, / Who loves having days in order to see good? / Guard
your tongue from evil, / And your lips from speaking deceit. /
Turn away from evil and do good; / Seek peace and pursue
it. / The eyes of Jehovah are set toward the righteous, / And
His ears, toward their cry. / The face of Jehovah is against
those who do evil, / To cut off the memory of them from the
earth.’’ These verses were quoted by Peter in 1 Peter 3:10-12,
but Paul did not quote such a word. Paul’s vision of the New
Testament economy was clearer than that of all the other
apostles.
When David asked, ‘‘Who is the man who desires life, /
Who loves having days in order to see good?’’ he was not
talking about the eternal life but about the physical life.
David was a great saint in the Old Testament, and Peter was
one of the great apostles in the New Testament, but I do not
believe that what David said here is spiritual. Even among
us, who dares ask the Lord to give him long days that he
may enjoy many good things?
MESSAGE SIXTEEN 203
David said that if we love having days in order to see
good, we should guard our tongue from evil and our lips from
speaking deceit. But who has ever succeeded in guarding his
tongue from evil? What David spoke here was according to
the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Verse 15 says, ‘‘The eyes of Jehovah are set toward the
righteous, / And His ears, toward their cry.’’ But who is
righteous on this earth? Paul said that not one is righteous
(Rom. 3:10), and Isaiah said that our righteousnesses are like
filthy rags (Isa. 64:6). If we depend upon our righteousness
to enjoy God’s eyes and ears being set toward us, we will
enjoy nothing, because we have no righteousness of our own.
Concerning the righteous man, David said, ‘‘He keeps all
his bones; / Not one of them is broken’’ (v. 20). This is a verse
concerning Christ because David was a type of the suffering
Christ. When Christ was on the cross, the soldiers did not
break His legs when they saw that He had already died (John
19:33). John said, ‘‘These things happened that the Scripture
might be fulfilled: ‘No bone of His shall be broken’’’ (v. 36).
There were times in describing his sufferings that David
typified Christ.
When we look at Psalm 34, we can see the mixed
expressions of David’s sentiment. Verse 20 refers to Christ,
but most of this psalm is not according to the tree of life.
Our concept needs to be changed to the divine concept
according to the tree of life. As we grow in Christ, our concept
will be changed.

09-28-2018 08:24 AM

Evangelical

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by VoiceInWilderness

I don't believe most of the Bible was dictated by God. God used the writer's humanity to write it. I said the Bible does not contain any erroneous human concepts. I understand "God breathed" to mean similar to what Peter said:
2Pet 1: 20 knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation.
21 For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

09-28-2018 08:12 AM

Evangelical

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by VoiceInWilderness

That is very surprising to me that Calvin believed as you say.
Do you have supporting evidence?

I believe in Biblical inerrancy. The Orthodox Jews do also and always have, and so did Jesus as proved by the below among others:
John 10:34 ... and the Scripture cannot be broken.

When Luther got old he was mentally ill due to ear infections.
That is when he made his horrible anti-Semitic rants.
I don't know when in his life he made the terrible mistake of saying that the book of James was uninspired. He said the same about Hebrews, Jude and Revelation, because these books contradict his overemphasized teaching on salvation by faith alone without works.
He also did not believe Esther, Jeremiah, Jonah and Song of Songs.
Luther had been a great man of God.
This shows me that no minister of the age is inerrant and needs the checks and balances of others.
But the Bible is inerrant.

When you say the Bible is not inerrant, I understand you to mean that there are mistakes in the Bible as originally written. Is that what you mean?

09-28-2018 06:15 AM

Drake

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by VoiceInWilderness

WL said that when God Himself speaks at the end of Job, that God's speaking there is not wise.
Or when Peter quotes Psalm 34 saying to keep your tongue from evil and your lips from speaking guile, WL says that Peter was wrong to quote that verse. So WL is disagreeing with the divinely inspired Biblical authors..

Please provide the two quotes mentioned above. Let’s have a closer look.

Drake

09-28-2018 01:10 AM

VoiceInWilderness

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

These are self-contradicting statements. If the Bible is inaccurate, then it has errors. But then you say the Bible is without error, which is true, and means it is inerrant, right? Maybe you meant to say "precise" instead of "accurate".

Do you believe in the theory of evolution? It contradicts the Bible. If the theory of evolution is right, then the Bible is wrong and vice-versa.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

The error in Aron’s understanding can be traced back to his definition of the Scriptural term “God breathed” ... he and Miller offer explanations of “God breathed” as if the Bible emerged out of thin air or as if the human instruments who actually penned its pages went into a trance of some sort and started scribbling. .

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Perhaps they never understood that we have no original letters and the closest copies to the original are at least a hundred years and most are closer to 700 to 800 years removed. Maybe they don’t understand that the copies from which current versions are derived come from different schools with scribes that may have omitted or added a word here or there in an MSS to fit their concepts.... yet even that is instructive where it appears.

This is a different matter. The Bible is inerrant in its original manuscripts.
The Masoretic Text of the OT matches the Dead Sea Scrolls almost word for word throughout, even though the manuscripts are about 1,000 years apart. There are some significant 1-letter differences which affect the interpretation of prophecy, but none that affects how we should live our life and faith.
There are 1000's of NT manuscripts. They all agree similarly to how the NT and DSS agree. God has preserved His Word, as He promised.
Also the earliest complete NT manuscripts are not 700-800 years older than the originals. More like 300 years.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Nevertheless, the Bible we possess is without error but not in the way they describe that every word in it is a portrayal of Christ or God or an accurate understanding of the things of God. The human concepts are there, the lies are there, the workings of evil minds are recorded there.... and still it is without error....it is accurate in what it records.

The workings of evil minds are recorded there as what accurately happened. We can understand from the context that these are examples of what not to do. What WL said is much different. For example WL said that when God Himself speaks at the end of Job, that God's speaking there is not wise.
Or when Peter quotes Psalm 34 saying to keep your tongue from evil and your lips from speaking guile, WL says that Peter was wrong to quote that verse. So WL is disagreeing with the divinely inspired Biblical authors.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

There is a possibility they are really smart and know all this and more....but merely engaging in sophistry.... to attack the object of their discontent... Brother Lee.

I do not know what sophistry is. I don't use sarcasm. I think Bro Lee was a great man of God. I learned how to understand the Bible from him. Bro Lee also had some serious mistakes, and as I said, I think his worst one was to say that parts of the Bible are unprofitable. When he excommunicated most of the former pastors and missionaries in 1988, he lost his checks and balances, as well as the Lord's blessing.
I was saved in the LC 1975, and remained there until the church in Detroit was excommunicated by the blendeds for not agreeing to the 1-Publication doctrine in around 2007.

09-28-2018 12:09 AM

VoiceInWilderness

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

09-26-2018 08:44 AM

awareness

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Elaboration on this might be instructive. I do not believe a wholesale read back of the NT into the OT, such as the Psalms, is supported by the Bible itself for the reasons already stated. It is evident that human concepts, flawed human ideas, cultural influence, lies and deceptions and influences of spiritual forces , quotes of philosophers and works not accepted as part of the canon of Holy Writ, ideas derived from the period between the testaments, expressions of our physical world based on scientific knowledge of the time and not as we understand science today ....all are in the Bible.

Thanks for that.

The title of this thread is The Psalms are the word of Christ. I disagree. But I understand that at least some Christians have romantic notions of Psalms, and the OT, even The Song of Songs, while discounting or ignoring the brutality in the OT, and the facts of how it was written, and selected as canon.

And you've done a suburb job of expressing it. Thanks.

I've always heard, 'The Bible is the word of "God,'" not "Christ" ... which means it's all Christ. That's a very high -- and I suspect fringe -- Christology.

Plus, I respect that Lee looked at Psalms realistically. Except I think he didn't go far enough. And I'm concerned that you haven't gone far enough. I care about you too bro Drake. Your salvation isn't threatened by realizing that the books of the Bible were written over centuries, and by fallen men. It's not a salvation matter.

09-26-2018 08:16 AM

Ohio

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by VoiceInWilderness

None of the Psalms are human concept without God. All are God-breathed God's concept inspired into men.

Brother Lee trashed the Psalms terribly.

Peter quotes Psalm 34 extensively. When WL gave the training on Peter, WL gave a very good message on Peter's quotes of Ps 34. You can read it in the life studies.

Later, when WL gave his messages on Psalms, he trashed Ps 34 and even said that Peter was not spiritual because Peter should not have quoted that psalm. The Life Study is really ugly.

I think WL had lost a lot of his mind by the time he gave the Psalms messages, but we in the LC were still following him blindly.

Quite an ironic observation here by VoiceInWilderness. Here's a section from Lee's Life Study (Mesage 16) on Psalms 34:

Quote:

The title of Psalm 34 says that this was a psalm of David "when he disguised his sanity before Abimelech, who drove him out, and he departed." We can see from this that the situation in which Psalm 34 was written was not an honorable one. David was not normal; he disguised himself as being insane because he was before a king who had the power to kill him. As a result of disguising himself, David was delivered from Abimelech (1 Sam. 21:10—22:1a). Afterward, he wrote Psalm 34. In this psalm he gave all the credit to God, but actually he delivered himself by disguising himself. To disguise oneself is a kind of falsehood.

Here W. Lee criticized David saying he was "not normal, not honorable, in a kind of falsehood." But who was the one who was really losing his mind???

Reading David's story here I was reminded of the Lord Jesus, the King of Kings, standing in "disguise" before Pontius Pilate. The Lord Jesus could have rightly dressed Himself in glory, surrounded by the heavenly host, with the Father's glory, yet instead He appeared as a beggarly preacher, all alone abandoned by all, to Pilate a "fool's fool." Name me one person at that scene who thought Jesus was "normal, and in an honorable situation?"

W. Lee totally missed Christ here. Once again he exhibits his life-long practice of creating standards by which he can condemn others, and uplift his own ministry. In the previous paragraph he wrote:

Quote:

In this message we want to continue our fellowship on the mixed expressions of the psalmist's sentiment in his enjoyment of God in God's house. If we do not have a deep hunger to seek after the Lord with His Word, these messages may disappoint us. This is because what we may like according to our natural concept is exposed. What we see in the Bible and what the Bible is to us depend upon what kind of person we are. Our understanding of the Bible is always according to what we are. This is why we need to be adjusted and brought into the divine concept.

Here Lee, while denigrating David in Psalm 34, says "What we see in the Bible and what the Bible is to us depend upon what kind of person we are." He is right about that. But oh so wrong about David and the Psalms.

09-26-2018 07:10 AM

Drake

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Awareness,

You are going too far in the other direction. All Scripture is God breathed including the Psalms and profitable for correction, reproof, and instruction in righteousness. Every Psalm is there in the Holy Writ by design and for our benefit.

No one will correct you but I will ... because I care about you.

Drake

Awareness,

Elaboration on this might be instructive.

I do not believe a wholesale read back of the NT into the OT, such as the Psalms, is supported by the Bible itself for the reasons already stated. It is evident that human concepts, flawed human ideas, cultural influence, lies and deceptions and influences of spiritual forces , quotes of philosophers and works not accepted as part of the canon of Holy Writ, ideas derived from the period between the testaments, expressions of our physical world based on scientific knowledge of the time and not as we understand science today ....all are in the Bible. Yet, it is there without error. Can we now with the benefit of hindsight see in the OT Christ in places the Jews with the OT in their hands could not? Certainly. Is Christ portrayed in every verse of the OT or specially the Psalms as some have argued in this thread? Certainly not. Christ and Gods plan was hidden in the OT for a reason, so that the evil spiritual forces would not understand that crucifixion was the path of God’s plan for had they known they would not have participated in crucifying Him. In the OT Christ is revealed in a mosaic and that is one reason He was not recognized though they had the OT in their very hands. Even the disciples who were with Him, even those closest to Him, could not understand what He was about to accomplish even though they too were familiar with the OT. It was not until after His resurrection that He opened their eyes to what the OT said about Him ( Luke 24).

Nevertheless, the Bible inspires with the Spirit’s striking our spirit and a Christian may thereby see something of Christ in a verse from an instant speaking from the Lord. For example, if you go to Brother Steve’s (Miller) site you will see many such examples of this from the Psalms. Are these Hermeneutically correct read backs from the NT into the Psalms? Mostly not. Are they beneficial or edifying? I think so in this sense.... as you were strolling this morning enjoying the Lord, having a conversation with Him you may have seen a worm crawling across the path, and it may have struck you that Christ left His glorious estate to become a worm among men. The verse “I am a worm and no man” may come to mind and you might appreciate Him all the more because in so doing He saved you. Technically, Christ was not a worm and He was a man but nevertheless the inspiration leads you to some genuine spiritual experience and appreciation of Christ.

So when I say you go to far in one direction in rejecting the Psalms wholesale because they were penned by fallen men or over hundreds of years I mean you miss that all Scripture is profitable including the Psalms. So then, for you I would encourage you to go the Brother Millers site and read his explanations on the Psalms to appreciate them the way he does. Although to Brother Miller I would say that reading the NT back into the Psalms is not good hermeneutics, nevertheless, reading and listening to his enjoyment of Christ is enjoyable... like someone who saw Christ in the worm.

In my view Brother Lee struck, or attempted to, the right balance with the OT and the Psalms as Evangelical summarized a few posts back. Brother Lee didn’t do a wholesale read back of the NT into the OT and yet he and Brother Nee before him offered many spiritual insights about Christ, God’s plan and Gods purpose in the OT that were not obvious. Some may consider those insights as analogous to seeing Christ in worms, and some of it might be, but I personally have benefitted through them with what I believe to be the best balance between good solid interpretation of using the Bible to explain and interpret the Bible and becoming sensitive to the Spirit’s leading and instant speaking in the Word.

Thanks
Drake

09-25-2018 09:52 PM

awareness

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

We could say that Lee "Recovered the Reformation" from the point where it started to go astray - when the later Reformers fell into the error of literal inerrancy.

Yes, we could say....

09-25-2018 06:50 PM

Ohio

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

We could say that Lee "Recovered the Reformation" from the point where it started to go astray - when the later Reformers fell into the error of literal inerrancy.

Titus Chu and numerous men of God tried to reform and recover the Recovery.

The Blendeds then issued a papal bull against them and lynched them at the Whistler ITERO kangaroo court.

09-25-2018 06:16 PM

Evangelical

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

And bro E, if Lee's approach is very similar to Luther's wouldn't that mean that Lee's Recovery was stuck back there with Luther? Just askin'.

We could say that Lee "Recovered the Reformation" from the point where it started to go astray - when the later Reformers fell into the error of literal inerrancy.

09-25-2018 07:32 AM

awareness

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Lee's approach is very similar to Luther's - using the Scripture to interpret Scripture, but also using Scripture to critique Scripture. Lee also emphasized the inspiration of the Spirit for the proper meaning of Scripture through "pray -reading" - the spirit over the letter.

Good point ... if pray-reading triggers inspiration of the Spirit. Or if the Spirit is always available if we have the right key (let's call it the Lee key) to open it up.

But prolly, pray-reading anything my lead to deeper insights into any text ; a cookbook say, or mechanic's manual. But it can also make us see things that aren't there.

So Lee's Cargo Cult method of "inspiration of the Spirit" does not necessarily fill the gaps in the human aspects of scripture, if it causes our imagination to run wild of the Spirit. Just sayin'.

And bro E, if Lee's approach is very similar to Luther's wouldn't that mean that Lee's Recovery was stuck back there with Luther? Just askin'.

09-25-2018 05:50 AM

Drake

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

-1

This is an excellent accurate summary of the subject.

Drake

09-25-2018 12:21 AM

Evangelical

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

It was not until about 100 years after Luther and Calvin that other Reformers introduced the idea of biblical inerrancy in the text itself rather than Luther and Calvin's view that inerrancy came about because of the inspiration of the Spirit, and they allowed for the possibility of human errors. That is, even if there is an error in the bible the Holy Spirit will provide the correct inspiration and we do not need to pretend that the bible is perfect. Luther even believed that an apostle's words may be uninspired and non-apostolic and an unbelievers words may be inspired and apostolic - it was evaluated against whether or not it made Christ known or not, based upon the words of Paul (1 Cor 2:2).

Lee's approach is very similar to Luther's - using the Scripture to interpret Scripture, but also using Scripture to critique Scripture. Lee also emphasized the inspiration of the Spirit for the proper meaning of Scripture through "pray -reading" - the spirit over the letter.

So, what these people are reacting against, I believe, is a type of hermeneutics they will not find in modern evangelicalism, which assumes that the text itself is inerrant.

09-24-2018 09:43 PM

Drake

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

-1

“Likewise, when it records historical events, genealogies, etc., it does so using the idioms and cultural norms of the time--yet it is without error.”

Neither does the Bible express our physical world in accurate scientific terms ... and it quotes philosophers and non inspired writings. Yet, it is without error.

The error in Aron’s understanding can be traced back to his definition of the Scriptural term “God breathed” ... he and Miller offer explanations of “God breathed” as if the Bible emerged out of thin air or as if the human instruments who actually penned its pages went into a trance of some sort and started scribbling. . Perhaps they never understood that we have no original letters and the closest copies to the original are at least a hundred years and most are closer to 700 to 800 years removed. Maybe they don’t understand that the copies from which current versions are derived come from different schools with scribes that may have omitted or added a word here or there in an MSS to fit their concepts.... yet even that is instructive where it appears.

Nevertheless, the Bible we possess is without error but not in the way they describe that every word in it is a portrayal of Christ or God or an accurate understanding of the things of God. The human concepts are there, the lies are there, the workings of evil minds are recorded there.... and still it is without error....it is accurate in what it records.

There is a possibility they are really smart and know all this and more....but merely engaging in sophistry.... to attack the object of their discontent... Brother Lee.

Drake

09-24-2018 08:43 PM

Evangelical

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

There's a fairly comprehensive article on CARM that refutes the idea that "The Bible isn't the Word of God. It contains the Word of God."

https://carm.org/bible-isnt-word-god...tains-word-god

It explains how the bible inerrantly records lies.

So if this is the understanding of evangelical Christianity , how exactly is Lee wrong to differentiate between lies/humanity and truth/divinity in the Bible?

09-24-2018 08:25 PM

Drake

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by VoiceInWilderness

Because every word of Scripture is God-breathed and we are to live by it.
On what basis do you say that parts of the Bible are erroneous human concepts?

After you catch up we’ll talk.... pick it up from what has already been said.

Thanks
Drake

09-24-2018 05:54 PM

VoiceInWilderness

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

09-24-2018 05:33 PM

VoiceInWilderness

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Of course all Scripture is God breathed. On what basis do you teach that every word of every verse of every chapter of every book does not display or contain human concepts?

Drake

Because every word of Scripture is God-breathed and we are to live by it.
On what basis do you say that parts of the Bible are erroneous human concepts?

09-24-2018 08:48 AM

awareness

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Thanks. You're a peach.
-

09-24-2018 06:53 AM

Drake

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

09-24-2018 06:49 AM

Ohio

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Talk about being disingenuous and deceptive.

Nobody in their right mind would have concluded that. But you did.

09-24-2018 06:39 AM

Drake

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

And likewise, you see Christ in David smashing Goliath in the head with a stone? And Agag getting stabbed by Samuel? And Deborah driving a nail into the skull of Sisera?
Well, alrighty then. We all can see where you stand on violence in the OT.
Shouldn't David submit to Goliath? That would have been the NT thing to do in those circumstances. Show love. Turn the other cheek, go the second mile.

Hmmm.. ok, so now you don’t see Christ in the story of Goliath having previously argued in its favor. Instead, you think David should have submitted to Goliath in the name of love... and you see Christ in the smashing of infants against rocks.

Nutty.

Here is the problem with your human concepts Aron (your cohort Miller holds the same erroneous core belief) ....at the source it starts by a misunderstanding on your part, a misunderstanding that seems right but actually is very misguided ..... it is the erroneous belief that because all Scripture is God breathed that every word in it depicts or portrays Christ. The scripture is God breathed but not every word or verse or Psalm or expression of an idea represents Christ, or Gods economy, or the revelation of Gods purpose and things related. Rather, the God breathed word shows us those things, sometimes and often hidden in a mosaic, but it also shows us contrasting human concepts, man’s expression of his ideas about God or God’s care for His people, etc. Those human ideas are there in the God breathed word for our understanding and are profitable for correction, reproof, and instruction in righteousness. The error that you and Mr. Miller are deeply stuck in is in equating the definition of “God breathed” with a portrayal of Christ. The Bible never makes a claim to your method of interpretation and by embracing it so adamantly you have fallen into the error described above.. you then end up teaching nutty interpretations such as depicting Christ in the smashing of infants against rocks.

When applying OT to the NT it is important to keep in mind what the NT conveys about the Lord and how He is depicted as the tabernacle, the offerings, the Noahic flood, the rock that followed the Israelites, the Red Sea, etc. and is compared or contracted in some aspect to various personalities like Moses, David, Solomon, or Enoch.... but not in every way is the Lord like the types that typify Him. Therefore, some discernment must be made about which OT items represent Him in allegory, figures, and types and how they do not. A wholesale read back of the NT into the Psalms is not supported by the scripture itself. This is where your logic and understanding have failed you and where I hoped to open a window that you may see the fallacy of your argument in your blind spot. You rejected that in favor of digging into some rather bizarre and contradictory statements and teachings. Yet, I think yours is the quintessential example of how a misunderstanding of a core belief as described above can vector off into a series of odd, nutty, or bizarre beliefs down the line. Off a quarter inch today and you are then off by a quarter mile tomorrow.

Hope that helps.

Drake

09-24-2018 05:33 AM

Ohio

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

Then the spin-offs get spin-offs. With the LC, now they wonder "who has the mantle"? The splinter groups all claim the true line from Martin Luther.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

So your reply is, So what? Similar to your perfunctory dismissals after we pointed out the Timothy Lee Daystar money fiasco and the Philip Lee Affairs.

Careful there aron. If you keep mentioning the Midwest "spin-off" or Lee's profligate boys, Drake will put you on his "ignore list" like he did to me, pick up all his marbles, and won't talk to you anymore.

09-24-2018 04:13 AM

awareness

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Again, so what?

Drake

Thanks for that bro Drake ; finally the sound of reason. This whole thing is absurd. Psalms are not the word of Christ. Psalms is a composition of over 5 centuries, all of it written by fallen men. Still, it is great literature ... except 137:9, and all the other verses about destroying enemies ... that Jesus countered with "love your enemy."

Meanwhile, let's continue -- in the spirit of Psalms -- to pile on bro Drake. It's fun. After all, he's in that awful local church. Where's David's slingshot when we need it. We needed it for that giant Witness Lee.

09-24-2018 03:11 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

If your only point is that you see Christ in Psalms where Brother Lee doesn't but you also recognize that there are psalms with human concepts then to that I say...

So what?

The only point you have made then is that you have a different interpretation of some of the Psalms. You see Christ in every Psalm or you refuse to identify those with human concepts and how you decided which ones have human concepts (you keep oscillating back and forth between those two positions but it matters not which you actually believe)... Brother Lee doesn't see Christ in every Psalm.... Therefore, you want the reader to accept your interpretation.

Again, so what?

Drake

Thanks for your summary of your defense of Witness Lee's treatment of the Psalms. I pointed out that he went from "Christ is everything"- the reality of all positive OT types - to a nearly wholesale dismissal of the "natural concepts" of the OT writer trying to please God, and obey. I pointed out the contradictory treatments of different psalms, arbitrarily labeling them as "fallen human sentiments" or "revelatory", apparently at whim. I noted how this treatment of the OT text was at stark variance with the NT reception.

So your reply is, So what? Similar to your perfunctory dismissals after we pointed out the Timothy Lee Daystar money fiasco and the Philip Lee Affairs.

Perhaps we should have a similar reaction to all the conferences, trainings, self-published book titles. All the thousands of footnotes and cross-references in the RecV. All the outlines and HWMR "we should" and "we need to" exortations.

Just look at the source of it all. Enough said.

09-24-2018 02:38 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Both traditions can appreciate Luther’s famous dictum as a recovery, they are saying that both Catholic and Protestant can appreciate that Luther recovered justification by faith..

And the EOC? Your view is more defensible in Western Europe struggling to emerge from centuries of medeivalism, than 21st century global Christianity.

Also note all the spin-offs, each claiming further restoration or recovery. Ellen White, Mary Baker Eddy, etc. Then the spin-offs get spin-offs. With the LC, now they wonder "who has the mantle"? The splinter groups all claim the true line from Martin Luther.

For that matter, perhaps the Eastern Lightning carefully traces their Mota lineage back through WL and Luther. It helps getting converts, you know. The patina of credibility.

09-24-2018 02:28 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

That is your argument? You see in the Psalms Christ in the smashing of infants on rocks....?

Well, alrighty.... I see what Evangelical meant....

Drake

And likewise, you see Christ in David smashing Goliath in the head with a stone? And Agag getting stabbed by Samuel? And Deborah driving a nail into the skull of Sisera?

Well, alrighty then. We all can see where you stand on violence in the OT.

Shouldn't David submit to Goliath? That would have been the NT thing to do in those circumstances. Show love. Turn the other cheek, go the second mile.

09-23-2018 06:55 PM

Drake

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

That is your argument? You see in the Psalms Christ in the smashing of infants on rocks....?

Well, alrighty.... I see what Evangelical meant....

Drake

09-23-2018 06:35 PM

Evangelical

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

And where are your scholars who also have sanctioned Martin Luther the first Minister of the Age? Try to get your facts straight matey!

They state that Luther recovered salvation by faith. That is the topic we were discussing, not "Minister of the Age". Let's address the facts one at a time.

Knowing this fact, it is easy to see how Luther is qualified to be a Minister of the Age. I don't expect any scholar to use this language, but they do appreciate that Luther had a bigger role in the Reformation than you seem to admit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Taking my words out of context? I expect more from the current LSM mouthpiece. The "worst in Martin Luther" comment referred specifically to his dismissal of the book of James ("straw epistle fit for burning") and his anti-Semitic rants. But you knew that. And you call me a liar?

Your other deceptive technique is to present a false choice set, like Drake does. Since I don't accept that Luther is the first MOTA of the Recovery, then I must be some contemptuous "closet Catholic" like you find on other forums.

Yes I know what it referred to and I remarked that if Luther did not dismiss the book of James, then we would still be reading the Latin Vulgate with the Apocrypha as well.

The reason is, that it would very hard to convince Catholic people of justification by faith alone and convert them to the Reformation as long as the book of James about faith+works was staring them in the face.

The Reformation was mainly built upon a doctrine of justification by faith (alone) of which it seemed necessary for Luther to dismiss the book of James. The Catholic doctrine very much depended upon and still depends today on a literal interpretation of James - "your (saving) faith is dead unless you have works".

My "closet Catholic" remark stems from understanding that Luther's doctrine of justification by faith alone does not blend well with the book of James. Defending James, to a degree, is almost to defend Catholicism.

It is popular today for evangelicals to explain away what the book of James says, but this is only reminiscent of closer ties between Catholicism and Evangelicism in my view. It is interesting that Luther did not merely try to "explain away" the book of James as evangelicals do today, but dismissed it outright, at least initially.

The goal of any good Catholic who wants to convert an Evangelical is firstly to get them to see how Luther's justification by faith alone was wrong - to do that they will use the book of James. The goal of any good Protestant, or Reformer, is to turn our attention away from James's saving works, and focus ourselves on the Scriptures regarding salvation by faith alone. At least, a real Reformer would do that in my view.

The book of James was such a problem for the Reformers that Calvin went to the lengths of adding the word "alone" to James 2:24.

I would just like to bring your attention to a Catholic blog which supports everything I have been saying:

But there's good news about this, because once we see why Protestants have continued to follow Calvin by adding the word "alone" to James 2:24, we will be able to refute Luther's heresy all the more easily.

http://catholicnick.blogspot.com/201...-to-james.html

In this blog we can see the Catholic's aim to convert Protestants, and secondly their aim to use James to refute the Reformation.

09-23-2018 05:58 PM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

As examples, aron recognizes human concepts in the Psalms but won't name the verses or how he derives that they are human concepts. Then his feathers get all ruffled when you quote him directly stating he sees Christ in every Psalm but then he responds suggesting he never meant that. In another place he refers to James as an ignorant leader but then rents his clothes and throws dust in the air at a reasonable explanation that James' epistle is influenced by the law. He demands precision from others but then asks the reader to forgive his frequent exaggerations. He criticizes others for holding an opinion but prizes his own very highly.

I still don't really know what he thinks about the Psalms because of that..... but it seems his purpose is not to generate light but rather heat. That is, just to find fault with Brother Lee's explanation without offering a cohesive one of his own.

Drake

I'll patiently restate my case for what seems like the 35th time. How is it that David hitting Goliath in the face with a rock is "Christ" but smashing infants on the rocks is not? Do you retrospectively impose the Geneva convention?

Paul already answered this: we struggle against spiritual forces. The OT allegories still hold.

And yes, James was influenced by the law. He was a Jew. As was David. How is it that you require the Jews to live like the gentiles? (But I don't think you'll get that one).

p.s. I did name the verse: Psalm 51:5.

09-23-2018 05:46 PM

Drake

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

If that is the case then smashing babies into rocks portrays Christ to Aron. He must divide the Psalms somehow, and if he doesn't do that then he is comparing Christ to all the negative things in the Psalms.

Yep. That too.

I'm addressing the duplicitous nature of his argument.

As examples, aron recognizes human concepts in the Psalms but won't name the verses or how he derives that they are human concepts. Then his feathers get all ruffled when you quote him directly stating he sees Christ in every Psalm but then he responds suggesting he never meant that. In another place he refers to James as an ignorant leader but then rents his clothes and throws dust in the air at a reasonable explanation that James' epistle is influenced by the law. He demands precision from others but then asks the reader to forgive his frequent exaggerations. He criticizes others for holding an opinion but prizes his own very highly.

I still don't really know what he thinks about the Psalms because of that..... but it seems his purpose is not to generate light but rather heat. That is, just to find fault with Brother Lee's explanation without offering a cohesive one of his own.

Drake

09-23-2018 05:34 PM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

If you see Christ in a verse in which Christ is not to be found, then have you not in effect "added" your human concepts to God's Word?

I would like to hear the logical and rational reasoning why it is not the case.

No, you are right. Except, then Peter and Paul violate this in the book of Acts, seeing Christ in Psalm 16. Because David was a sinner, see? He didn't rise from the dead, & thus could not typify Christ. So they are improperly adding to scripture.

Of course I'm being facetious. The OT is a book of types and figures. If WL's many liberal interpretations don't "add to God's Word", then how do mine? In fact, I think my logic is better than his. But then I'm probably biased.

But seriously, I'm following the path of WL: looking at NT authors seeing Christ in the OT, and following suit. If you reject my interpretation as adding to God's Word, and as going beyond what is written, you must likewise reject the bulk of WL's ministry, along with Darby et al.

Or are you going to pull out the old, "Its okay when we do it but not when you do it" argument? That's the LSM fallback position - the MOTA can do it, but you can't.

09-23-2018 03:52 PM

Ohio

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Don't worry about Drake, worry about yourself - it's amazing how you put forward nonfactual statements, that could be refuted by the quoting of expert scholars, while claiming Lee was the worst historian ever. If you can't even get little facts straight...

We can thank the "worst in Martin Luther" for the Reformation, otherwise we'd all still be reading from the Latin Vulgate. He did not merely just copy the Catholic Bible and make it available for all..

As much as you and others criticize Lee and Luther for their views of James, you sound like closet Catholics to be honest - I could find similar statements on a Catholic forum. I don't know what non-Catholic people see in the book of James about Christ that Luther and many others could not see. You must really be better than great men like Martin Luther and others who could not find much Christ in it. There must be even a hint of faith+works in your justification doctrine - I don't think Luther would have accepted you as a Reformer tbh.

And where are your scholars who also have sanctioned Martin Luther the first Minister of the Age? Try to get your facts straight matey!

Taking my words out of context? I expect more from the current LSM mouthpiece. The "worst in Martin Luther" comment referred specifically to his dismissal of the book of James ("straw epistle fit for burning") and his anti-Semitic rants. But you knew that. And you call me a liar?

09-23-2018 03:37 PM

Ohio

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

You present a false choice set: either 18 of the first 21 Psalms are natural, per Witness Lee, or "every word of every Psalm" must unequivocally show Christ. You say, it's either Lee's 15% or it must be 100%. My first posts made clear that I wasn't going for the second option of 100%. I just said, There is more Christ in the Psalms than Brother Lee let on. That's it. I made my case with a few of the first Psalms. Point made. And I've repeated this several times. I never said I was going to do a systematic review of every word of every Psalm. I doubt you think that way, either - rather you're trying to divert attention from Brother Lee's deficient Bible study.

aron, when dealing with folks who only know extremes, you must learn to repetitively repeat yourself redundantly again and again.

Just trying to help you out.

09-23-2018 03:12 PM

Evangelical

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

2. The NT reception of the Psalms by Jesus, the gospel writers, Paul, and the Epistle to the Hebrews, doesn't suggest that only the Psalms cited in the NT were to be viewed as pertaining to Christ. Yet current LSM mouthpiece Evangelical says that if we see Christ where it isn't explicitly cited, then perhaps we're "adding to God's word". Really? Can someone affiliated with LSM say this with a straight face? Amazing.

09-23-2018 02:05 PM

Evangelical

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Ok Aron. So you’ve changed your mind since a few posts back when I posed this question to you.

Nevertheless, now that we know where you are coming from with the above statement then your reasons for objecting to anyone characterizing any Psalm as a human concept and not a portrayal of Christ is consistent. You accept every Psalm as a portrayal of Christ without exception.

Drake

09-23-2018 02:00 PM

Evangelical

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

It's truly amazing watching LSMers like Drake, forced to constantly defend their infallible MOTA Witness Lee, twist and contort their understanding of the interpretation of the scriptures. Unfortunately these same ones never gave any of the rest of the ministers in the body of Christ one iota of accommodation or tolerance for their teachings and practices.

The rest of us accept the Psalms as the word of God. Every one of them were sung by Israel in the worship of God. Some praise, some worship, some exhort, some educate, some expose, some uplift us, some humble us, etc. The early church continued this practice, as the Apostles took the Psalms with them as they evangelized the nations. Never did they give us warning concerning "human sentiments" or the exceedingly dangerous "human concepts" which today spook the LC's. Thank you Witness Lee.

I did a search "seeing Christ in the Psalms." Endless websites popped up. Christians around the globe are constantly looking to find more of Christ in His word. The New Covenant promises, "all will know Him," and there is so much to know, by all of God's children, here a little there a little. Yet only W. Lee demeans certain Psalms and books like James as "natural concepts, human sentiments." Lee digs up the worst of Martin Luther in order to justify his bad and arrogant behavior, because there's nothing in the scripture to justify this.

VoiceinWilderness succinctly exposes this arrogant attitude of W. Lee and his supporters -- "Brother Lee trashed the Psalms terribly. Peter quotes Psalm 34 extensively. When WL gave the training on Peter, WL gave a very good message on Peter's quotes of Ps 34. You can read it in the life studies. Later, when WL gave his messages on Psalms, he trashed Ps 34 and even said that Peter was not spiritual because Peter should not have quoted that psalm. The Life Study is really ugly."

09-23-2018 01:32 PM

Drake

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

My first couple of points made clear that I wasn't going for the second option. I just said, There is more Christ in the Psalms than Brother Lee let on. That's it. I made my case with a few of the first Psalms. Point made..

09-23-2018 01:03 PM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

You accept every Psalm as a portrayal of Christ without exception.

You present a false choice set: either 18 of the first 21 Psalms are natural, per Witness Lee, or "every word of every Psalm" must unequivocally show Christ. You say, it's either Lee's 15% or it must be 100%. My first posts made clear that I wasn't going for the second option of 100%. I just said, There is more Christ in the Psalms than Brother Lee let on. That's it. I made my case with a few of the first Psalms. Point made. And I've repeated this several times. I never said I was going to do a systematic review of every word of every Psalm. I doubt you think that way, either - rather you're trying to divert attention from Brother Lee's deficient Bible study.

Here was my quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

I think there is some Christ to be found in more than 3 of the first 21 Psalms. I am not a scholar like Nigel Tomes, so please bear with my abbreviated account.

If you want to do a systematic review of every word of every Psalm, perhaps you should start your own study. I never aimed for that. I merely said there was more than what Brother Lee said.

1. Witness Lee deviated from his pattern of "seeing Christ" in the text when he came to the Psalms.
2. The NT reception of the Psalms by Jesus, the gospel writers, Paul, and the Epistle to the Hebrews, doesn't suggest that only the Psalms cited in the NT were to be viewed as pertaining to Christ. Yet current LSM mouthpiece Evangelical says that if we see Christ where it isn't explicitly cited, then perhaps we're "adding to God's word". Really? Can someone affiliated with LSM say this with a straight face? Amazing.
3. The reasons given to disqualify Psalms from consideration in the RecV footnotes were typically: A) the psalm-writer was a sinner and not qualified to represent Christ in his statements of divine fealty and reward; and B) the psalm-writer was breathing "unchristian" imprecations toward his enemies, rather than loving and forgiving. I dealt with this already in detail. Neither Drake nor Evangelical has answered. Instead we get the diversions like quoted above.
4. Brother Lee was inconsistent, saying a phrase was "divine" and another was "natural" with no discernible difference between the two. Both would be imperfect sinners writing, both were fighting with others, etc. My comment was, Did nobody notice this inconsistency? Were we all so mesmerised? Or were we cowed into silence?

I was addressing the first 21 Psalms as a representative sample of the book, knowing the trend continued beyond. I felt that my point was made. Recently, in Post #714, I gave some more examples from the first dozen Psalms. No answer from Drake. Instead, diversions.

Here is an answer: Psalm 51:5 "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me." I personally don't think the 'I' and 'me' here is of Christ. Okay? Good? We found a "human sentiment" in the Psalms! But we already know all this. Satan has a speaking role from Genesis 3 onwards. I give Manoah as a good example of "fallen human concept". (there are others as well)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Judges 13:21-23

When the angel of the Lord did not show himself again to Manoah and his wife, Manoah realized that it was the angel of the Lord. “We are doomed to die!” he said to his wife. “We have seen God!”
But his wife answered, “If the Lord had meant to kill us, he would not have accepted a burnt offering and grain offering from our hands, nor shown us all these things or now told us this.”

Typically, when someone speaks "natural concept", the Bible clearly tells us this is happening. When it's instead up to the interpreter with his hermeneutic (viz,"God's New Testament Economy") we should be more circumspect. Especially when it makes us discard 18 of the first 21 Psalms as of human and not divine origin, a trend which continues for the rest of the book.

So no, I don't think that every word of every Psalms

09-23-2018 10:19 AM

Ohio

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Of course all Scripture is God breathed. On what basis do you teach that every word of every verse of every chapter of every book does not display or contain human concepts?

09-23-2018 07:07 AM

Drake

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by VoiceInWilderness

None of the Psalms are human concept without God. All are God-breathed God's concept inspired into men.

Of course all Scripture is God breathed. On what basis do you teach that every word of every verse of every chapter of every book does not display or contain human concepts?

Drake

09-23-2018 07:03 AM

Drake

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

Actually, I haven't found any Psalms that don't portray Christ.......

09-22-2018 07:32 PM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by VoiceInWilderness

None of the Psalms are human concept without God. All are God-breathed God's concept inspired into men.

Brother Lee trashed the Psalms terribly.

If the NT reception of the Psalms had given some precedent, or basis to Brother Lee's approach, we'd have to take it seriously. The NT did not, and neither should we.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acts 13:32-41

“We tell you the good news: What God promised our ancestors he has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising up Jesus. As it is written in the second Psalm:

“‘You are my son;
today I have become your father.’
God raised him from the dead so that he will never be subject to decay. As God has said,
“‘I will give you the holy and sure blessings promised to David.’
So it is also stated elsewhere:

“‘You will not let your holy one see decay.’
“Now when David had served God’s purpose in his own generation, he fell asleep; he was buried with his ancestors and his body decayed. But the one whom God raised from the dead did not see decay.

“Therefore, my friends, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses. Take care that what the prophets have said does not happen to you:

“‘Look, you scoffers,
wonder and perish,
for I am going to do something in your days
that you would never believe,
even if someone told you.’”

Interesting that the Gamaliel-trained Pharisee Paul uses the same approach that the illiterate Galilean fisherman Peter does: David's pious declarations of fealty and reward present us with a picture of the coming Christ. In Acts 13, Paul quotes the Psalms and also Isaiah 55:3 affirming God's promise to David:

Quote:

Isaiah 55:1 “Come, all you who are thirsty,
come to the waters;
and you who have no money,
come, buy and eat!
Come, buy wine and milk
without money and without cost.
2 Why spend money on what is not bread,
and your labor on what does not satisfy?
Listen, listen to me, and eat what is good,
and you will delight in the richest of fare.
3 Give ear and come to me;
listen, that you may live.
I will make an everlasting covenant with you,
my faithful love promised to David.
4 See, I have made him a witness to the peoples,
a ruler and commander of the peoples.
5 Surely you will summon nations you know not,
and nations you do not know will come running to you,
because of the LORD your God,
the Holy One of Israel,
for he has endowed you with splendor.”

From Paul's usage of Psalms and Isaiah in Acts 13, the basis for Psalm citation isn't the rightness of the psalmist, but the promise made to him (v4). For corroboration, see Peter in Acts 2:30,31

Quote:

"But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. Seeing what was to come, he spoke . . ."

And according to Paul's use of Isaiah, in Christ God has "summoned the nations whom you [David] knew not". (v5) Marvelous! Even if David didn't know the nations, God used his writings (of Christ) to summon them! Amazing!

And here we are. . .

09-22-2018 07:23 PM

VoiceInWilderness

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Aron, list the Psalms you characterize as human concept and why. Brother Lee spoke volumes on the Psalms, life studies and books we can examine,

None of the Psalms are human concept without God. All are God-breathed God's concept inspired into men.

Brother Lee trashed the Psalms terribly.

Peter quotes Psalm 34 extensively. When WL gave the training on Peter, WL gave a very good message on Peter's quotes of Ps 34. You can read it in the life studies.

Later, when WL gave his messages on Psalms, he trashed Ps 34 and even said that Peter was not spiritual because Peter should not have quoted that psalm. The Life Study is really ugly.

I think WL had lost a lot of his mind by the time he gave the Psalms messages, but we in the LC were still following him blindly.

09-22-2018 06:04 PM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

while attacking Brother Lee for holding similar beliefs ...

I could just as easily say Brother Lee attacks David, or even attacks Christ. Your subjectively freighted terminology will only mollify the true believers, who aren't going to be on this site anyway, having been warned away. (But you got a special dispensation from LSM to write here?)

Brother Lee does have similar beliefs. Here is a quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Witness Lee

“We should always be ready in our spirit to receive the instant inspiration of the Spirit. If we are living a revived and overcoming life and are one with the Lord, we will always be ready to receive instant inspiration. . . we also need to have the spiritual insight into all matters through the enlightening of the divine light, that is, through the enjoyment of the Lord in the Word. If we have the Word, and in our spirit, we are ready to receive inspiration, then we will also have the insight over all things, even in all matters, trough the enlightening of the divine light. Prophecy is always composed of the Word, inspiration, and the divine light. We need to put all the foregoing principles concerning prophesying into practice for the organic building up of the church. (The Practical and Organic Building Up of the Church p.88)

So if I read, or sing, or pray-read Psalm 1:3 and get an "instant inspiration" that the tree growing by the river, bearing fruit in season, whose leaf doesn't wither, seems a lot like the Christ portrayed in Revelation 22, that makes me a lot like Brother Lee, doesn't it? But for some reason Brother Lee in the Psalms didn't seem a lot like Brother Lee. Why is that? Because David was a sinner? Where is the "insight" and the "divine light"? I don't see any.

I mentioned that David and Goliath cursed each other and did greivous physical harm. David killed a few (or more) of the Philistines. Yet he still seems to be one according to God's heart.

Actually, I haven't found any Psalms that don't portray Christ. Even Psalm 51, at the end, David says, "Then I will teach transgressors your ways/and sinners will turn back to you". Jesus told Peter, "When you turn, you will strengthen the brothers" (Luke 22:32). The repentant transgressor (David/Peter) then becomes a beacon to the other wayward sheep! Marvelous. . . "God's mercy saved David/Peter - He will save me, too!" All of us can follow Psalm 51's hope.

Elsewhere, the violent imagery portrays the conquering King. "Your arrows are sharp/in the heart of your enemy" (Psalm 45) Why does Lee's footnote say that such sentiment is "Christ" in one place and yet it is "natural" or "fallen" in another? And you say I'm being selective in my readings?

But perhaps there is a spot that is truly "fallen" and "natural". . . but I have not seen Brother Lee make a compelling case. He says Psalm 1 is "according to the tree of knowledge of good and evil". I disagree. The psalm shows the Righteous Man who does God's will. David was a man after God's heart, and that is a picture of Christ. That man is enthroned in Psalm 2 as Son of God. Or did you miss that part? I didn't see any comments. Or are you deliberately mis-reading my writings? Or reading them selectively - I went over all this already. And I already wrote how this King who loves God's law is the same King in Deuteronomy 17:18. I've covered all this already. Remember? No?

Then Psalm 3: "I have the power to lay my life down, and the power to pick it up again" Did you miss that one also? I don't remember your comments.

So far Witness Lee is 1 for 3; I am 3 for 3.

Psalm 4:8 "I will both lay me down in peace, and sleep: for thou, Lord, only makest me dwell in safety." Echoes Psalm 3, above; see also Psalm 17:15 "As for me, I will be vindicated and will see your face; when I awake, I will be satisfied with seeing your likeness."

What do you think "sleep" and "wake" signify here?

Psalm 5:11 "But let all those that put their trust in thee rejoice: let them ever shout for joy, because thou defendest them: let them also that love thy name be joyful in thee. 12 For thou, Lord, wilt bless the righteous; with favour wilt thou compass him as with a shield."

The Lord Jesus loved the Name of the Father and was joyful in Him; likewise, the Father blessed the Lord Jesus (the Righteous One), protected him (see e.g., Psalm 91 for explicit citations/confirmation)

Psalm 6:8 "Depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity; for the Lord hath heard the voice of my weeping." See Matthew 7:23"And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (In the Psalms RecV there isn't even a cross-reference, much less a footnote - please tell us how much Lee "loved" the Psalms!)

Psalm 7:14 "Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief shall return upon his own head, and his violent dealing shall come down upon his own pate."

Jesus taught, "What you do to others will be done to you." Bless and you'll be blessed, forgive and you'll be forgiven; on the contrary if you scheme and plot to harm, and curse others, it will return on you. Where do you think Jesus got these teachings? From the OT! He was a Rabbi! ~Mark 14:45; John 1:38; Mark 9:5; John 20:16; John 3:2. Both the Psalms and Jesus taught, if you dig a ditch for someone else, you'll fall into it yourself. Pretty simple.

Of course all these comments above are my personal "readings". No more valid (or less) than Lee looking at Leviticus or Numbers and saying "this means that". I'm also a "seer of the divine revelation" like Nee and Lee were; all of us are (or can be). But my main point on this thread has not been to promote my readings but to ask: why did Lee's reading (reception) of the Psalms depart so drastically from the precedent set by NT reception of the Psalms?Peter also had a reading; Paul had a reading; Hebrews had a reading; John's gospel had a reading; why did Brother Lee ignore this clear pattern and forge his own, in the opposite direction?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Aron, list the Psalms you characterize as human concept and why.

Drake, please list Jesus, Peter, Paul, John and the Epistle to the Hebrews in the NT showing us the Psalms being of human concept. I can show you quite a few where they list them as of divine inspiration - where are the opposite cases? What basis in the NT reception did Brother Lee use for his own? If you can show us the NT doing it, then I'll consider following.

09-22-2018 06:48 AM

Drake

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

It seems that Aron has completely misunderstood the footnotes, or their purpose. Picking apart a single footnote or two is one thing, but understanding the context and justification for them is another which brings a completely benign perspective on the matter.

Aron has not misunderstood the footnotes. Rather, he gets them quite well. His selectively picking apart a few of them and ignoring the whole, his dismissing of Brother Lee’s declared deep appreciation for the Psalms, his refusal to disclose the Psalms he characterizes as human concept or explaining why he chooses them as such while attacking Brother Lee for holding similar beliefs ... well, all that is the pattern of an antagonist not someone who misunderstands or seeks to present an alternative.

Aron’s approach is not unlike what we see today in American politics where one party on a mission to take down a president will inflate every innuendo into an impeachable offense, turn tweets into a constitutional crisis, ignore the whole and refuse to give credit for the things that are good, right, and edifying. If Aron sought to be undersood he would offer a scholarly rebuttal on the Psalms contrasting his view with Brother Lees so we could compare and determine which are words of life and which are indeed human concepts and he would acknowledge the beliefs of the other side as his starting point, not dismiss them. Making a compelling case should not be a difficult undertaking for Aron given his scholarly pursuits. Yet, his posts have not offered anything close to a scholars presentation and appear rather as a play to the party faithful designed at taking someone down.... politics as usual.

But who knows, he might yet roll out the big scholarly guns....

Aron, list the Psalms you characterize as human concept and why. Brother Lee spoke volumes on the Psalms, life studies and books we can examine, and yet we have still to get one cohesive post from you on the subject laying it all out for us. Alternatively, if you don’t know anything about the topic you could quote one of your Second Temple scholars. Maybe they have something substantive to offer on this topic.

Thanks
Drake

09-21-2018 07:23 PM

Evangelical

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

I'm still missing where all of these scholars say that Martin Luther started "The Recovery" and that Luther was the first Minister of the Age "MOTA," because this is the foundation of LC history as I was taught by W. Lee.

I quoted a scholar before here, who says that Luther recovered justification by faith:

https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct...-by-faith.html

Both traditions can appreciate Luther’s famous dictum as a recovery, not a discovery.

I think they are saying that both Catholic and Protestant can appreciate that Luther recovered justification by faith.

Luther started the recovery of justification by faith (alone) and I think the scholars support that. While Wycliffe, Hus, and others, even Catholics, talk about faith, and being justified by faith, but they don't teach the same things that Luther did or the faith implies faith+works.

09-21-2018 03:35 AM

Ohio

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Then there were plenty of heretical groups trying to Reform the Catholics as well, the Cathars for example.

I don't know what history books you are reading.

The history books I read, by real experts, say that Huss did not recover justification by faith.

Experts also do not see Huss, Wycliffe etc as being part of the Reformation. That is why they are called proto-Protestants, in a sort of proto-Reformation. But really they are distinct events at distinct times, each with a slightly different reason for reforming the Church.

The history books I read tell me that the Lutheran and Reformed theology was not a continuation of the groups that went before.

Even if it was, no one advanced it as much as Luther and other Reformers - the actual Reformation.

When presented with the facts, you can't argue ignorance, so if continuing to spread non-facts, these would be considered lies.

09-21-2018 02:34 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Especially this one:

Psalm 137:9 May the Lord bless everyone who beats your children against the rocks!

Ohio and I both noted Paul's spiritually- oriented warfare motif in Ephesians -"not flesh and blood" - but you let it pass. I noted the many martial aspects of Jesus' gospel activities against the forces of darkness. Not applicable, you say - these OT verses were from those speaking and doing horrific, unchristian things. Not divine revelation! Not Christ!

Yet when David and Goliath stood there spitting curses at one another, then ran together with knives and stones, wishing each other real, physical harm, what then are we to think? Should the Isaelites have submitted to the Philistines as the 'Christian' thing to do? Or Samuel with Agag? Or Deborah and Sisera? Or Abraham and the kings?

The argument leads to absurdity, so one must change it as the text moves along. With God there's no shadow cast by turnings but with WL and LSM we see exegetical turnings aplenty, and few more prominent than the treatment of the Psalms.

"He who eats bread with me, lifts his heel against me"; this was David dealing with palace intrigue. And yes they were all fallen human sinners, not one of them pure in themselves. Yet because of God's promise it is cited by Christ. "It is written" - that was good enough for Jesus but suddenly your argument is grasping for qualifiers, even if unevenly applied. John 13:18; Psa 41:9

09-21-2018 02:22 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

If this is how most Christians treat the law, I cannot see why we cannot also divide the Psalms according to what the New Testament cites and what it doesn't.

This is called dividing scripture rightly (2 Tim 2:15)

I don't recall the NT citing the badger skins or silver sockets of the ark. Yet WL made his living at going beyond what was written. But you & his captive audience don't seem to notice the glaring disconnect.

WL was, like WN before him, a self-professed "seer of the divine revelation" who could see "Christ" in the lemma of OT text. But suddenly in the Psalms, the revelations dried up. Why?

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

WL got bothered by the ministries in God's word which sprang up in the "local churches" by singing the Psalms. Several gifted musicians started doing things in the Word which the saints loved, and picked up on. This was a movement "in the churches" which hadn't been sanctioned and directed the Oracle and Apostle of the age, so it was squelched. People were passing around music cassettes which didn't have "Living Stream Ministry" on them.

It was about money and power. This drove WL's revelations, same as WN before him. Nee's theme had changed from autonomous local assemblies to the centralized "Jerusalem Principle" when events on the ground warranted it. . .in short, it was a ministry tainted by self interest and convenience. So we continually saw these stark reversals, both in exegesis and in practice. Pecuniary interests drove both the "Christ is everything" approach to interpreting OT scripture, and its polar opposite, the strict "NT citation only".

09-20-2018 09:15 PM

Evangelical

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

For 1500 years God's chosen people were justified by faith in His Son's death on the cross. Read Miller's Church History or Broadbent or Schaaf. God has always had a people who were His own. I already told you that Luther said he was a Hussite -- he began to know these same truths one hundred years earlier -- and Huss learned from others.

There is no "recovery." It was called the "reformation." Go read the history books. Huss, Luther, Calvin, Farel, Tyndale, Zwingli, and thousands more tried to "reform" the Catholic Church. They couldn't do it.

They all got QUARANTINED by the pope, just like so many "reformers" like John Ingalls or Titus Chu in the LC's got quarantined by Lee and the Blindeds.

You and Lee act like there never was a genuine Christian, or a real church, or anyone saved by faith until Luther was born. Absurd. Read church history.

And, like I said, I would not believe a single thing Lee taught about church history unless I have second source corroborating evidence. Luther was not the first MOTA.

And I could care less if you call me a liar. Bible says all men are liars, only God is true!

09-20-2018 09:04 PM

Ohio

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Especially this one:

Psalm 137:9 May the Lord bless everyone who beats your children against the rocks!

That verse was written for WL and his boys!

Too bad WL didn't read that verse, then the Lord could have blessed everyone.

09-20-2018 09:02 PM

Evangelical

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin

Saints here don't appreciate the book of Psalms because it's loaded with human opinions according to them. No wonder I don't often hear they quote from Psalms.

Especially this one:

Psalm 137:9 May the Lord bless everyone who beats your children against the rocks!

09-20-2018 09:02 PM

Ohio

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Further to the scholarly sources which I presented that shows that Huss did not recover justification by faith alone, here is a ChristianityToday article which supports the idea that Luther recovered justification by faith:

https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct...-by-faith.html

Luther’s emphasis on justification by faith was not a discovery, but a recovery.

It is good to see that scholars and a top historian can support Lee's belief that Luther recovered justification by faith.

Ohio is spreading lies twice - that Luther did not recovery justification by faith, and that Lee was a bad historian.

09-20-2018 08:43 PM

Kevin

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Why is it a lie?

Saints here don't appreciate the book of Psalms because it's loaded with human opinions according to them. No wonder I don't often hear they quote from Psalms.

09-20-2018 07:16 PM

Evangelical

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin

Nice try, but that's a lie Mr. Evan.

Why is it a lie?

09-20-2018 07:06 PM

Kevin

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Nice try, but that's a lie Mr. Evan.

09-20-2018 06:48 PM

Evangelical

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Let us not forget that in "Life-study of the Psalms" Lee says that every Psalm is a spiritual supply to us and we love all the Psalms and that the Psalms are fully Christ-centred. This somewhat destroys the argument that Lee "denigrated the Psalms".

But unlike Aron we know how to distinguish between human things and divine things. We do not let our love for Christ blind us to the reality that the Old Testament is, well.. Old!

That is, the law is about Christ but we know not to circumcise ourselves or keep the Sabbath like a Jew.

Similarly, the Psalms are Christ-centred but we know that we should not take revenge on enemies or take some of these things literally.

It seems that Aron has completely misunderstood the footnotes, or their purpose. Picking apart a single footnote or two is one thing, but understanding the context and justification for them is another which brings a completely benign perspective on the matter.

09-20-2018 06:25 PM

Evangelical

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

It's probably not coincidental that German Lutherans carried out the most violent and thorough anti-Jewish pogrom of modern times. One might want to keep that in mind when using Luther's anti-James bias to support one's own.

"What?! Are you trying to return us to the law?!" - this is the kind of knee-jerk reaction we can now expect. No, but the man of Israel who loved the law and tried to follow it does give a pretty good picture of Christ. "I come to do your will oh God" - just because David failed doesn't mean Christ did. (Heb 10:9; cf Psa 40:8)

I mean, we might want to stop for a minute and ask ourselves why the Psalms are the most-cited book in the NT. Probably not just that it's the biggest book in the OT! There are probably other reasons, as well. Just think about it for a minute. . .

FYI Psalms is actually a collection of 5 books and not all the Psalms are cited. If Christ did not cite a certain Psalm we should ask ourselves why.

Where it concerns the Law, most Christians accept that the parts of the law cited by Christ become the most relevant and important (the two love commandments for example) and the parts that Christ broke (the Sabbath, etc) became less important, such that most Christians do not keep the Sabbath today as per the old testament law.

If this is how most Christians treat the law, I cannot see why we cannot also divide the Psalms according to what the New Testament cites and what it doesn't.

This is called dividing scripture rightly (2 Tim 2:15).

To be consistent, if Aron does not like us dividing the Psalms, then he should not divide the law either according to the parts referenced by the New Testament - I hope he keeps the whole law, including circumcision, Sabbath keeping, and avoiding unclean animals.

Just as the whole law is about Christ (it shows his perfect righteousness) , we don't follow the whole law but divide between laws we should pay attention to and ones we don't (circumcision etc).
Similarly, the whole Psalms is about Christ, but we must divide between the ones we follow and the ones we don't.

09-20-2018 06:19 PM

Evangelical

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Luther did not recover justification by faith.

WL was the worst historian of church history in the history of the church.

09-20-2018 02:21 PM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by ABrotherinFaith

Could you elaborate on this Aaron. The footnotes at the beginning of Psalms are one of the things that really got me started looking into what exactly I was being told.

My point was this: when I came into the recovery church, the allegories would make your head swim. Christ was "the reality of all positive things" in the text. Christ wasn't just "the good land; no, Christ was the "iron stones" in the good land. We would make up songs about all the detailed points. Christ was the badger skins covering the ark of the testimony: furry on the outside & soft on the inside.

Okay, fair enough. Why not? Then all of a sudden, we come to the Psalms, and there is the tree, growing by the river, bearing its fruit in season, whose leaf never withers (1:3), and I think, Hey - positive imagery! Looks like the tree at the end of the bible in the NJ (Rev 22:2).

But WL is like, Nah- that's vanity. His mouthpiece here, Mr E, says that is "adding to the word of God".

So I'm asking, Why the exegetical about-face? Why have all the visions of Christ suddenly dried up?

I see Psalm 40:8, and it says "I [Christ] come to do thy [God's] will", per the interpretation of the NT (Heb 10:9). Yet other, similar expressions in the Psalms are panned by WL because they were written by sinners who disobeyed God. Yet that same sinner wrote Psalm 40! If you look at Psalm 18, for example, it has similar language; see vv 16 - 24 for example. "He [God] delighted in me [Christ" (19) and "He rewarded me because of my righteousness" (20). WL says, God didn't delight in David. But what about Jesus? "This is my beloved Son, in whom I delight. Hear him."

09-20-2018 02:11 PM

ABrotherinFaith

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

In the Psalms, WL went from being an allegorist of the first rank to being a strict constructionist.

Could you elaborate on this Aaron. The footnotes at the beginning of Psalms are one of the things that really got me started looking into what exactly I was being told.

09-20-2018 05:46 AM

Ohio

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

It's probably not coincidental that German Lutherans carried out the most violent and thorough anti-Jewish pogrom of modern times. One might want to keep that in mind before trying to use Luther's anti-James bias to support their own.

I guess they also considered Martin Luther to be the first MOTA, and used his teachings to authenticate the Holocaust. Another reason to get an accurate view of history.

09-20-2018 03:14 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

If you know anything about Luther, you would know that he would not "praise" anyone, especially not some Asian.

It's probably not coincidental that German Lutherans carried out the most violent and thorough anti-Jewish pogrom of modern times. One might want to keep that in mind when using Luther's anti-James bias to support one's own.

"What?! Are you trying to return us to the law?!" - this is the kind of knee-jerk reaction we can now expect. No, but the man of Israel who loved the law and tried to follow it does give a pretty good picture of Christ. "I come to do your will oh God" - just because David failed doesn't mean Christ did. (Heb 10:9; cf Psa 40:8)

I mean, we might want to stop for a minute and ask ourselves why the Psalms are the most-cited book in the NT. Probably not just that it's the biggest book in the OT! There are probably other reasons, as well. Just think about it for a minute. . .

09-20-2018 02:47 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Don't you find it a little ironic that, like Absalom with David, it was Lee's sons who helped undo him. If we see God's hand with Absalom in judging David, should we not also see God's hand with Philip Lee in regard to WL?

This is where "different weights and measures" comes into play. We can point out that David occasionally entertained fallen human concepts, but to suggest that WL could also be thus compromised was unthinkable. Social harmony is maintained at the expense of such willful delusion. Now our faith is not in the resurrection of Jesus but in "Brother Lee is always right". New gods have entered the scene.

09-20-2018 02:38 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

If we read a Psalm and assume it speaks of Christ when in fact it doesn't, are we not "adding to scripture"?

WL could see Christ in the silver sockets of the ark. "Christ is everything" was the mantra. Yet no one apparently noted when he did an exegetical about-face in the Psalms. Or they noted, but kept their mouths shut. That's how you survive in the LC. Big brother talks, you say amen hallelujah.

09-20-2018 02:32 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

But we know the enemies David was speaking of was Absalom and those with him in the rebellion.

In the Psalms, WL went from being an allegorist of the first rank to being a strict constructionist. And none in his assembly noticed, because to note such things might threaten the harmony - oneness uber alles. Gods oracle can contradict himself, but we cannot contradict Gods oracle. Thus, social harmony is maintained.

09-19-2018 11:29 PM

Evangelical

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Luther did not recover justification by faith.

Luther claimed he was a "Hussite," since he realized that John Huss had pioneered all these same truths 100 years earlier. The only difference between Luther and Huss, besides being from different centuries and different countries, was that the German nobility protected Luther, and not necessarily for reasons of the faith. They just hated Rome. Huss, however, was betrayed and martyred.

Read the stories of church history bro! WL was the worst historian of church history in the history of the church.

What are your sources to say that Hus taught justification by faith alone? This article by ChristianityToday says otherwise:

unlike many other reformers, Hus retained much of Catholic theology. He did not teach the doctrine of justification by faith alone, a fact Luther noted when he observed that, unlike himself, Hus had attacked only the life, not the doctrine, of late medieval Catholicism.

https://www.christianitytoday.com/hi...onnection.html

A book Jan Hus: Religious Reform and Social Revolution in Bohemia
By Thomas A. Fudge

also says:

"While Hus did speak much of grace, faith and the authority of Scripture.. he knew nothing of sola fide or sola scriptura".

"Throughout the works and sermons of Jan Hus we can locate emphases upon the theological principle fides caritate formata that salvation is apprehended when faith is formed or completed in love or good works."

My point that "Luther recovered justification by faith (alone)" remains a true statement.

Timothy George and Thomas A. Fudge are real scholars by the way. Fudge in particular is an expert on Jan Hus:

Thomas A. Fudgé is Professor of Medieval History at the University of New England, Australia. Author of thirteen books, he is recognized as an international authority on Jan Hus and Hussite history

09-19-2018 07:59 PM

Ohio

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

09-19-2018 04:48 PM

Evangelical

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Luther recovered justification by faith that's a historical fact.

There is a research article The Recovery of the Doctrine of Justification by Faith F. W. Dillistone, First Published July 1, 1954.

"Protestantism was born out of the struggle for the doctrine of justification by faith".

This struggle is still ongoing.

09-19-2018 04:08 PM

Ohio

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I think that if Luther were here on this forum today he would be praising Lee for "sticking to the books which present Christ to me, clearly and purely".

If you know anything about Luther, you would know that he would not "praise" anyone, especially not some Asian. Luther was never known for "working well with others." He was constantly at odds with the Swiss, for example.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Most Christians don't understand what it means to be a "Protestant". Luther started to question the Canon of scripture (Luther's Canon) and long-held Catholic beliefs, but also to re-evaluate and even re-interpret (from a non-Catholic point of view) the scriptures in terms of how they relate to the gospel i.e. justification by faith in Christ alone.

Luther was not the only "Protestant." Many came before him, and many came later. There were German, Swiss, French, English, Moravian, and many other Reformers. I place a huge question mark on all church history taught by WL, especially this nonsense that Luther was the First MOTA, the one who recovered Justification by faith.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Evangelicals today carry on this tradition of interpreting Scripture through the lens of Reformed theology - salvation by faith alone. To maintain this approach it is almost necessary to down-play or explain away the verses in James about justification by works. Or we could just say that the whole book of James is worthless, as Luther did. It is also necessary to focus on the books of John, Romans, Ephesians and others which affirm the doctrine of salvation by faith alone. This is why it is almost unheard of to see a verse from James in an evangelical gospel tract, but there will surely be some verses from John, Romans or Ephesians.

I don't see too many gospel tracts from Jude either. I don't fault Luther for disparaging James, but neither would I tell anybody that. It happened, it was recorded, and it helps us know history, but I take little else from comments like this from Luther.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

It is amazing how people can condemn Lee for a few footnotes but are ignorant about the history of the Reformation and what Luther said and did in over-turning the Canon and re-interpreting the Bible and even influencing the translations to better represent his theology.

Lee brings judgment upon himself for the way he condemned others. Lee had the advantage of time and decades of scholarship. Comparing Lee with Luther is just stupid. Luther should be compared to Calvin and Zwingli, his contemporaries. That's why it's foolish to teach what Athanasius taught, but Lee did it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

When a person calls themself "Protestant" this is basically what it means to be a Protestant - to question the Catholic canon, their interpretation of scripture, particularly the book of James, and evaluate Scripture in light of the Protestant gospel. We could say that Luther even gave Reformers a license and freedom to do that. To do otherwise is essentially to be a Catholic - we might as well go back to the Latin Vulgate, and not question anything.

Most Christians today do not call themselves "Protestant." Catholics may, and Lee did, but others don't. They have changed with the times, they have returned to the scriptures. They call themselves "Christians" or believers.

09-19-2018 03:49 PM

Evangelical

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

But David's own words became the words of the Savior on the cross (e.g. "My God, My God, why ... "

Why is this not possible with other Spirit-inspired lyrics he puts to Psalm? Unless, of course, it is W. Lee who alone gets to decide which is which.

Don't you find it a little ironic that, like Absalom with David, it was Lee's sons who helped undo him. If we see God's hand with Absalom in judging David, should we not also see God's hand with Philip Lee in regard to WL?

Yes Psalm 22 which is about Christ.

But every Psalm? It's possible but the New Testament record does not show that Jesus quoted all of the Psalms, unless he did in fact but it was not recorded. If we read a Psalm and assume it speaks of Christ when in fact it doesn't, are we not "adding to scripture"?

The parallel between Lee and David is interesting.

I might have to re-think whether it was David who was the first MOTA and not Luther.

09-19-2018 03:39 PM

Ohio

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

That would change things I suppose.

But we know the enemies David was speaking of was Absalom and those with him in the rebellion.

09-19-2018 03:25 PM

Evangelical

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Evangelical, since none of us here but you and Drake consider Martin Luther to be the First MOTA of the Reformation, we are willing to thank God for all the work he did, knowing that he was far from perfect. Since W. Lee was willing to espouse Luther's pitiful views of the book of James, shouldn't Lee also cling to Luther's anti-Semitism? You did mention the parallels between the two, didn't you?

According to Luther's "no syllable about Christ" standard, must we also expunge the book of Esther, which has "no syllable about God?" Such a marvelous story of God's sovereign care tossed on Persian garbage dumps to appease one of Luther's impulses.

I think that if Luther were here on this forum today he would be praising Lee for "sticking to the books which present Christ to me, clearly and purely". If that is what Lee was doing then if we condemn him then we condemn Luther and even the whole Reformation.

Most Christians don't understand what it means to be a "Protestant". Luther started to question the Canon of scripture (Luther's Canon) and long-held Catholic beliefs, but also to re-evaluate and even re-interpret (from a non-Catholic point of view) the scriptures in terms of how they relate to the gospel i.e. justification by faith in Christ alone.

Evangelicals today carry on this tradition of interpreting Scripture through the lens of Reformed theology - salvation by faith alone. To maintain this approach it is almost necessary to down-play or explain away the verses in James about justification by works. Or we could just say that the whole book of James is worthless, as Luther did. It is also necessary to focus on the books of John, Romans, Ephesians and others which affirm the doctrine of salvation by faith alone. This is why it is almost unheard of to see a verse from James in an evangelical gospel tract, but there will surely be some verses from John, Romans or Ephesians.

It is amazing how people can condemn Lee for a few footnotes but are ignorant about the history of the Reformation and what Luther said and did in over-turning the Canon and re-interpreting the Bible and even influencing the translations to better represent his theology.

When a person calls themself "Protestant" this is basically what it means to be a Protestant - to question the Catholic canon, their interpretation of scripture, particularly the book of James, and evaluate Scripture in light of the Protestant gospel. We could say that Luther even gave Reformers a license and freedom to do that. To do otherwise is essentially to be a Catholic - we might as well go back to the Latin Vulgate, and not question anything.

09-19-2018 03:13 PM

Evangelical

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

What if these enemies are not blood and flesh, but the principalities, the authorities, the world-rulers of darkness, spiritual forces of evil in the heavenlies?

That would change things I suppose.

But we know the enemies David was speaking of was Absalom and those with him in the rebellion.

09-19-2018 06:41 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Nothing is getting “lopped off” unless you lop off Psalms and other verses you think are human concepts. You might engage in the practice of lopping off scripture but Witness Lee certainly did not. He treasured the Bible . . .

Sorry I occasionally lapse into colorful expressions which don't match the facts on the ground. No, WL didn't "lop off" scriptures. But he disregarded them as vain, fallen human concepts. Read my first post again. Or, read the first 21 chapters of the RecV and see the footnotes. Most of the text passes without comment. Only a few passing remarks on how it is "fallen" and "mixed sentiments" and the like.

Peter could have said that about Psalm 16. I mean, David the sinner never rose from the dead! Just vain talk, right? Empty words from a fallen human's concept! But no, Peter didn't take that route. But WL did.

But "lopped off" was probably a mischaracterization. "Disregarded" would be better put.

09-19-2018 06:35 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

Three times in the Psalms the declaration is, "Get behind me, you workers of evil", and three times in the NT Jesus is shown using that same formula. But there's no connection, because the psalmist himself was unrighteous- right?

Quote:

Psalm 6:8 Depart from me, all you workers of iniquity, for the LORD has heard my weeping.

Psalm 119:115 Depart from me, you evildoers, that I may obey the commandments of my God.

Psalm 139:19 If only you, God, would slay the wicked! Away from me, you who are bloodthirsty!

You may disregard these psalms since they were written by sinners. And you may disregard my pointing them out. But the important question is, did Jesus also disregard them?

Quote:

Luke 13:27 NIV "But he will reply, 'I don't know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!'”

Matthew 16:23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns."

Matthew 4:10 Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.'"

09-19-2018 02:20 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

This is simple Aron, you just agreed that some % of the Psalms are human concepts and you haven’t told us how you derive that. So, you kinda want it both ways.... you want to find fault with Witness Lee’s selection and explanations but not give us the benefit of understanding (and critiquing) your selections and explanations.

The DSS say that David wrote the Psalms in the spirit. Jesus and Peter agreed with that in the NT. Paul told us to be "filled in spirit" singing them.

Don't you think we should be a little less cavalier in our dismissals?

I never said, or intimated, that ALL of the words of the Psalms are exact, one-for-one images of Jesus in his human living, suffering, rejection, death, and glories that followed. Psalm 51 comes immediately to mind as a problematic text should one try that route.

What I've said repeatedly, and you've ignored repeatedly, is that there's a clear pattern of reception in the NT, and WL went out of his way to not respect that pattern but to forge his own path with his own logic. And he did great disservice to the scripture. That's what I find "fallen" and "natural".

Psalm 1 speaks of the man who does not take the path of wickedness, but chooses the good. WL said, "nobody is good". Well, there's this guy named Jesus. . .

Psalm 2 has this very man enthroned as Son of God. Coincidence?

Psalm 3 has this man in a cave. The man says, "I will lay me down, and rise again, for the LORD gives me such power". Now, I see perhaps an intimation of the coming Messiah, but Lee said, no, that man in Psalm 3 is merely a suffering sinner, whose hope is vain.

But that logic should also disqualify Psalm 16 and 22, no? I mean, if there are none righteous, no not even one, then how does the spotty-at-best "rightness of David" then somehow allow Christ to emerge?

Again I say, Peter addressed this neatly in Acts 2. David was a sinner like us but was speaking prophetically of the coming promised seed. It is not David's fitness that paves the way for Christ to emerge from the textual shadows, nor his failures that disqualify the text from consideration. Rather, he believed Gods promise, and God's command, and by faith he declared it to be so.

The NT gives a clear apostolic pattern of reception and WL went off the rails. And in WL's "oneness church" none could restrain him.

Three times in the Psalms the declaration is, "Get behind me, you workers of evil", and three times in the NT Jesus is shown using that same formula. But there's no connection, because the psalmist himself was unrighteous- right? I mean, it's perfectly logical. Right? It couldn't possibly apply, could it? I mean, nobody is right. Right?

09-18-2018 09:21 PM

byHismercy

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Spirit—nevertheless it does not undermine the unity or identity of the Three-in-One.

6. Bibliology
The authoritative basis for all theological discussion is Scripture. Therefore, to believe something about the Bible that undermines its authority in any sense is to surrender a truly Christian epistemology and worldview, and exalt one’s own reasoning above God’s revelation. That means we have to ask: Does this teaching so distort the doctrine of Scripture that it undermines biblical authority? Does this teaching deny that authority in such a way as to invest that authority in oneself, another man, or a tribunal of men?

A denial of the inspiration of Scripture would clearly place one outside the bounds of orthodoxy. “All Scripture is God-breathed” (2 Tim 3:16). To claim that any portion of Scripture is not the Word of God, or to treat it such a way as to impugn the character of the God whose Word it is, is to exalt one’s own reasoning above God’s revelation. It is to extricate oneself from the authority of God and make one’s own understanding the measuring line of truth. This is no longer truly Christian, but humanistic, and as such it crosses the line into heretical doctrine

I found this portion on master seminary. I see this is exactly what Lee was guilty of doing. He most certainly thought himself the final, infallible, authoritative word on Gods' word! What a trap to fall into.

09-18-2018 07:23 PM

ZNPaaneah

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

ZNP,

I suppose we might agree on 3 categories.

Those references in the NT of the OT verses that refer to Christ. We have no disagreement here, you and I.

Those incidences in the OT that are blatantly not referring to Christ in anyway including typology. For instance, Solomon is clearly a type of Christ in building the temple but not in having many wives that lead into idolatry.

Those two categories above we agree., I’m sure.

Third category is probably the area that lends to disagreement. You might think a certain verse refers to Christ... or can be be applied to Christ in hindsight. That is, when the OT verse was written no one considered it to refer to the Messiah but once fulfilled in hindsight it is now more apparent. I take that to be the meaning of the part after Jesus’ resurrection where He opened all the verses in the Law of Moses, Psalms and Prophets that referred to Him. (Luke24:44). These verses were not obvious to anybody at the time as referring to Him. There are some things that referred to Him and others that did not.... and yet, do we have a complete record in the NT stated outright of all those items He said referred to Him in the Law, Psalms, Prophets.... ? He was declared the Sin offering by John the Baptist, but where was it stated plainly that He is each offering? It is not stated there outright but it is fair to apply Christ as all the offerings where we see Him as the fulfillment in the NT. Perhaps we agree in principle here but maybe not specifics.

I’ll pause here for your point of view.

Drake

I view this differently. I have repeatedly been shown in my experience to be foolish and that my thoughts are not God's. As a result I have found the most success in beginning with the assumption that "all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge are hidden in this word". Then when I see something in the word that does not seem to agree with that my go to response is that I am missing something and there is a hidden treasure here for me to see.

So yes, Solomon's many wives and his failures were not an expression of Christ, but they were an expression of the treasures of wisdom and knowledge in the word that commanded the king not to go to Egypt for horses, not to go to lebanon for cedars, and not to sail over the ocean. We can see the wisdom in the warning not to take these foreign wives because they would distract you. Rather Deuteronomy charged "this is a rich land". Superficially it appeared that Egypt was rich in horses, much richer than Israel, and Lebanon was rich in timber, much richer that Israel. But the boundaries of Israel given by Moses included the entire Arabian peninsula. Had King Solomon, the wisest man on Earth, humbled himself and said "OK, I'll receive that word by faith" then he would have discovered the industrial revolution 2,000 years earlier than we did. The oil, concrete and steel would have been far superior to the timber and horses. This isn't some "fantasy". Archaeological evidence of Solomon's mines have discovered a mining operation on an industrial scale. It was the need for water pumps in mines that led to the first steam engine. There were other mining operations in the Mediterranean area that had "rails" making it easier for carts drawn by animals to pull the ore. We also have found toy steam engines from ancient Greece. The problem wasn't the concept, it was "precision". If you are not precise in making a steam engine all the energy is wasted from steam escaping the tiny gaps. This problem was only solved when we organized many people into the solution. That is something that Solomon was skilled at doing. But his wives distracted him, and his wisdom was turned to foolishness, and as a result we are now facing catastrophic climate change because of it.

Solomon's wisdom was our downfall and a curse to mankind. I would compare what WL does in saying "this word is good" and "that word is less good" and "that word over there is natural" to what Solomon did, picking and choosing which words He would receive.

09-18-2018 06:39 PM

Ohio

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

I never said it did. I said to perfunctorily cut off 70% of scripture with no NT precedent was wrong. I didn't say, "Every Psalm applies". You're changing the subject. Paul didn't say, Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly; those Psalms explicitly cited by the apostles; the rest freely dismiss". So why did Lee give himself such discretion, on so little basis? That David was a sinner?

Isn't it also amazing that Paul said, "Be filled in spirit speaking to one another in Psalms, singing and psalming with your heart to the Lord." (Eph 5.18-19)

Why did Paul not warn them about these human sentiments in Psalms? Was Paul not being faithful to the saints in Ephesus? Why did Paul wholly endorse the Psalms if some were so suspect? Listen to what Paul told the elders from Ephesus the last time he ever saw them, "You know how I was with you all the time, serving the Lord as a slave with all humility. How I did not shrink from declaring you anything profitable, teaching you publicly and house to house." (Acts 20.17-28)

09-18-2018 06:33 PM

Drake

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

See Aron, you keep denying this but both can be and are true.... “All Scripture is God breathed” AND there are human concepts included in it. I’m also convinced that you are “entertaining human concepts” in your posts in this forum.

That inclusion of human concepts in the Scripture is another benefit in the profitability of Scripture to us.... they are instructive in guiding us. Nothing is getting “lopped off”::: unless you lop off Psalms and other verses you think are human concepts. You might engage in the practice of lopping off scripture but Witness Lee certainly did not. He treasured the Bible more than any minister I ever knew and he left quite a volume that proves just how much he did.

Drake

09-18-2018 06:25 PM

Drake

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

I never said it did. I said to perfunctorily cut off 70% of scripture with no NT precedent was wrong. I didn't say, "Every Psalm applies". You're changing the subject.

Not a bit. This is very applicable.

You want to take the position that Witness Lee had no right to characterize dozens (70%) of Psalms as human concepts..., WITHOUT telling us which ones (?%) you characterize as human concepts and why.

This is simple Aron, you just agreed that some % of the Psalms are human concepts and you haven’t told us how you derive that. So, you kinda want it both ways.... you want to find fault with Witness Lee’s selection and explanations but not give us the benefit of understanding (and critiquing) your selections and explanations.

Drake

09-18-2018 06:22 PM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Ok.... in your opinion you know what’s going on and he didn’t.

So, educate us. If you agree that there are human concepts in the Bible how does Aron identify them?

Drake

If the NT reception indicates thus. Otherwise tread with care. "All scripture is God-breathed", not 35% of it. "Man shall live by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God", not 25% of it.

Lop off God's word with extreme caution. Lee lopped it off with extreme recklessness.

Conversely, how do you know if your 'oracle' was entertaining human concepts . . . how about if he cavalierly departed from apostolic precedent? In Acts 2, Peter noted David's sin and failure, but said that his word was prophetic. Paul repeated this in Acts 13. I say we have precedent. Lee noted David's sin and failure, and said therefore his word was vain and fallen, and inapplicable.

I suppose I'll stick with apostolic precedent. Of course I'll apply it judiciously. But I won't abandon it like Witness Lee did.

09-18-2018 06:17 PM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Where does it say every Psalm applies?

Drake

I never said it did. I said to perfunctorily cut off 70% of scripture with no NT precedent was wrong. I didn't say, "Every Psalm applies". You're changing the subject. Paul didn't write, "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly; those Psalms explicitly cited by the apostles; the rest freely dismiss". No, he just said "Psalms". So why did Lee give himself such discretion, on so little basis? That David was a sinner, and Christ righteous, therefore David's word didn't apply?

Jesus said, "David was in spirit, writing about the Messiah". . .Matt 22:44. . where do you get the impression that Jesus meant only the specific verse cited in that passage? I don't. Where does Jesus say, "David was in his vain human concepts while he wrote"? So what gives you such latitude? Don't you think a little more discretion is in order, here?

09-18-2018 06:14 PM

Ohio

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

There are many parallels between Lee and Luther. Like Lee, Luther also distinguished between scripture which shows us Christ and Scripture which doesn't. Luther wrote:

Let us banish this Epistle from the university, for it is worthless. It has no syllable about Christ, not even naming him except at the beginning. - on the book of James.

"What does not teach Christ is not apostolic, even though St. Peter or St. Paul taught it"

"St. John's Gospel and his first epistle, St. Paul's epistles, especially Romans, Galatians and Ephesians and St. Peter's first epistle [which] are the books that show you Christ and teach you all that is good and necessary for you to know."

Using Luther's approach, we may say that Lee distinguished between Psalms which "teach Christ" and Psalms which don't.

09-18-2018 06:14 PM

Drake

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

But where in the NT does it say that only those explicit citations apply, and the rest are vain? Here is my first post on this thread (see esp bolded):

Where does it say every Psalm applies?

Drake

09-18-2018 06:12 PM

Drake

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

You mis-read me terribly. My point was, on what basis did Witness Lee say that 34 of the first 41 psalms were human concepts? Because the writer was a sinner? Because he struggled against his foes? Because the chapter wasn't quoted in the NT?

I don't care if you aren't interested in these questions; rather I find it quite telling that thousands of otherwise intelligent and thoughtful Christians gathered to hear these messages without any of them apparently doing so.

"Well it's only natural" -yes, quite.

Ok.... in your opinion you know what’s going on and he didn’t.

So, educate us. If you agree that there are human concepts in the Bible how does Aron identify them?

Drake

09-18-2018 06:02 PM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

do we have a complete record in the NT stated outright of all those items He said referred to Him in the Law, Psalms, Prophets.... ?

But where in the NT does it say that only those explicit citations apply, and the rest are vain? Here is my first post on this thread (see esp bolded):

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

]I tried to read the Psalms in detail in the Recovery Version, which I still own, and gave up in the 34th chapter and skimmed the rest....and my sense was that the trend continued through the whole book of Psalms. ... I estimated that they actually addressed 1/4 to 1/3 of the Psalms.

In chapter 1, verse 1 footnote, LSM introduces the Psalms as either written by "fallen man's concept", i.e. the tree of knowledge of good and evil, or by a "revelation of Christ". LSM with the "God's economy" template, naturally gets to decide which are which.

So Psalm 1 is a "natural concept of David" Psalm.

Then Psalm 2 is a revelation of Christ.

Then Psalms 3 through 7 were written according to "David's concept".

Then Psalm 8 is a "revelation of Christ" psalm.

Then Psalms 9-15 are full of the concepts of good and evil, and void of Christ. See footnotes in 9:3 and 15:1. The intervening psalms (9 through 15)pass without mention (i.e. footnotes).

Then psalm 16 is a "revelation" psalm. Footnotes ensue.

Then psalms 17-21 are "David's concept" psalms. See footnote 17:1.

Out of the first 21 chapters of the Psalms, only 3 have any value according to the 'God's economy' metric. The rest are seen merely as placeholders, or worse.

So we are supposed to believe that David was limited by his "concepts" while WL entertained no concepts? All I see in the Psalms footnotes are concepts, and rather shallow and rudimentary ones at that..

09-18-2018 05:57 PM

Drake

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

But perhaps you could enlighten us on how we distinguish which parts of God's word are truly inspired by God and which are simply the musings of the natural man.

09-18-2018 05:55 PM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Just because a Psalm has human concepts does not mean it is not of value. We need the verses that show human concepts to reveal the truth about ourselves and our human nature. David's struggles in the Psalms are something we can all identify with.

Peter answered this definitively in Acts 2. David's failure (his grave is with us today) does not obviate Christ's victory (he rose from the dead). Yet Lee ignores this and places restrictions on the word, making Christ's righteousness depend on that of the speaker. Nonsense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

By rightly dividing the word we can distinguish between the human concepts and the divine concepts, because if we don't, then we might start praying for God to destroy our enemies rather than for God to bless them. We will ask God to bless us because of our righteousness rather than the righteousness in Christ. This can be a consequence of not seeing the human concepts.

"We" can distinguish? The subject of scripture is not us but Christ. "These things (inc Psalms) were written concerning me", not concerning the "NT believer enjoying grace" or some such. Luke 24:44. Where in the NT does it restrict this principle to explicit citations? Where does Lee get off placing burdens on scripture, that the writer must be righteous for it to apply to the righteous Christ, otherwise it is vain human musings?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Don't you think the "MOTA," acting God, deputy authority paradigm in the LCM contradicts God's New Testament plan to have all things headed up in Christ?

If we judged Lee by the bases he judged others, including writers of scripture, he'd be rejected. But he asked us to forgive his "messy kitchen". cf Luke 7:36-50

09-18-2018 05:45 PM

Ohio

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I agree wholeheartedly.

Don't you think the "MOTA," acting God, deputy authority paradigm in the LCM contradicts God's New Testament plan to have all things headed up in Christ?

What about LSM's spurious lawsuits and quarantines, don't they contradict the love and heart of our eternal Father, who enjoys diversities of operations?

What about the endless railing on all of Christianity, does that not violate Christ's love and grace as the Good Shepherd, loving every single child of God unreservedly?

What about LSM's endless demands, traditions, and ordinances; don't you think these law-keeping legalities contradict God's Spirit of freedom?

09-18-2018 05:35 PM

Ohio

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

What about the particular Psalms in question. Do you think that David was justified in desiring death upon His enemies when those enemies were sent as a punishment from God (i.e as a consequence of David's sin)?

What if these enemies are not blood and flesh, but the principalities, the authorities, the world-rulers of darkness, spiritual forces of evil in the heavenlies?

09-18-2018 03:41 PM

Evangelical

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

There are many parallels between Lee and Luther. Like Lee, Luther also distinguished between scripture which shows us Christ and Scripture which doesn't. Luther wrote:

Let us banish this Epistle from the university, for it is worthless. It has no syllable about Christ, not even naming him except at the beginning. - on the book of James.

"What does not teach Christ is not apostolic, even though St. Peter or St. Paul taught it"

"St. John's Gospel and his first epistle, St. Paul's epistles, especially Romans, Galatians and Ephesians and St. Peter's first epistle [which] are the books that show you Christ and teach you all that is good and necessary for you to know."

Therefore I stick to the books which present Christ to me, clearly and purely . . .

https://www.jesuswordsonly.com/books...and-canon.html

Using Luther's approach, we may say that Lee distinguished between Psalms which "teach Christ" and Psalms which don't.

09-18-2018 03:15 PM

Evangelical

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Aron,

Other plausible explanations is that you are wrong or that you take yourself too seriously. What I mean is that often I don’t accept your stated beliefs, I think they are off a little, or they are overstated in that you are dismissive of any other viewpoints... But I don’t think all of them are worthy of addressing. You might interpret silence as confirming one thing, but it might very well mean something entirely different.

For instance, there are human concepts expressed in the NT. Of course, there will be some in the OT. Why not? You appear to have a view of scripture not supported by scripture.

On what basis do you believe there are no human concepts in the Bible? Humans were involved in writing it... and copying it... and interpreting it.

Drake

Human concepts in the writing, copying and interpretation is also a good point. The recovery version footnotes addresses some of these as well by pointing out different meanings of certain words. Most Bibles put words inserted by the translators in italics. These italicized words are certainty the human translator's concepts.

09-18-2018 03:04 PM

Evangelical

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

What if a Bible expositor told you that 80% of the Bible was fallen human concepts and only 20% revelatory? Would you react in horror? How about 60% and 40%?

Would you perhaps respond that no, that expositors work was natural? I probably would be so inclined.

I would hold onto the 20% and the 80% would still be valuable.

All Christians who read their bible do this sort of dividing anyway, because of human bias, preference, background etc. Every person who reads their bible will be undertaking in their minds, a process of dividing and sorting between verses which "applies to them" and verses which seem irrelevant. This is a sort of biblical valuation on the basis of their human preference. Many Christians have never read through the entire bible from start to finish, many Christians don't even read their bibles every day, and if they do, it is their favorite parts.

How the bible is divided also depends on the theology of the people doing the dividing. For example, prosperity teachers divide the Word in such a way that shows that God wants us to be rich, healthy and happy. This is done in a planned way by the teachers, but also by the readers as they do this implicitly as they read it because of a prosperity belief.

Lee's approach to dividing the Word seems to be on the basis of human versus divine concepts and revelation. I think this is a good approach as it differentiates between human things and God things. Another way to think about this is to think about what man needs and needs to do, and what has God done for us?

This is related to the belief that the Bible is "about God and man". There seems to be some logic behind it as the Psalms that Lee says are divine revelation are those referenced by the New Testament. If we use Calvin's commentary for example to source the Psalms referred to by Christ, we are implicitly doing what Lee has already done for us in the footnotes.

09-18-2018 03:01 PM

Evangelical

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

What makes David's failures remove the picture of Christ? Does the king marrying the Tyrean princess in Psalm 45 make it no longer a picture of Christ? Suppose that wedding was Ahab and Jezebel (a Tyrean)? What then?

David's failures reflect our fallen human condition and inability to keep the law. They do not reflect Christ because Christ did not fail in anything.

Solomon is still a picture of Christ, as is David and there are good reasons for that in typology.

Ahab and Jezebel cannot be pictures of Christ because of what they typify.

09-18-2018 02:55 PM

Evangelical

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

On Pentecost, Peter told the story of a man who broke the power of death. This was exemplified in Psalm 16, but nowhere do I see Peter (or others) suggesting that this also doesn't apply to Psalm 3, or 9, or 18. Yet Lee with his hermeneutical program said this was so. Why? Because David was a sinner, whose grave is with us today? Peter already answered that. Because the man expressed vituperation towards his foes? Paul spoke to that.

And what "high peak narrative" causes you to look beyond the resurrection of Jesus from the dead? The whole NT obsesses over this theme (pun intended).

Hebrews 1 and 2 quotes the Psalms extensively (without implying "use these and no more") and then says, "we see Jesus made a little lower than the angels, and crowned with glory and honour"; you instead imply there's some exegetical construct superior to this, one whose prosperity demands that we reject 2/3 of the Psalms, or more, as "natural".

Human concepts are those which contradict the New Testament plan, which seem good to us (and the world at large) but which contradict God's plan in Christ. They include law-keeping for righteousness, seeking revenge on and hating enemies etc.

Still I'm thinking, if human concepts, so what? Just because a Psalm has human concepts does not mean it is not of value. We need the verses that show human concepts to reveal the truth about ourselves and our human nature. David's struggles in the Psalms are something we can all identify with.

By rightly dividing the word we can distinguish between the human concepts and the divine concepts, because if we don't, then we might start praying for God to destroy our enemies rather than for God to bless them. We will ask God to bless us because of our righteousness rather than the righteousness in Christ. This can be a consequence of not seeing the human concepts.

09-18-2018 02:52 PM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

09-18-2018 02:50 PM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I don't know why some people react in horror when it is mentioned that the Bible contains human concepts.

The Bible is including humanity, God and also Satan - the three main parties that were introduced in Genesis.

Not only are human concepts found in the Scripture, but Satan's concepts are found in the Scripture as well. The Bible tells us what we need to know about God, about Satan, and about ourselves and humanity.

If human concepts were not found in Scripture, we would not have to "rightly divide it" (2 Tim 2:15).

2 Tim 2:15 means to rightly divide or cut the text into its proper parts.

One way to rightly divide the Word is to distinguish between words of man, words of Satan, and words of God.

My fear is that if Christians were handed a bible that was 100% the words of Satan they would follow it unquestionably under the belief that it is "God's Word". That is why we need to rightly divide it.

One way to divide the Old Testament is to consider which passages are referenced by the New Testament that concern Christ.

09-18-2018 02:43 PM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

On what basis do you believe there are no human concepts in the Bible? Humans were involved in writing it... and copying it... and interpreting it.

09-18-2018 02:36 PM

Evangelical

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

It is "Lee's fallen human concept," a prideful arrogance, that challenges the authority of Scripture by exalting his own "Minister of the Age," acting God, Deputy Authority. Apparently you can't make this distinction. Lee applied this same dynamic to the book of James, demeaning the truths in his epistle also.

But where does Lee's authority come from to challenge the scripture? It is a self-assumed authority much the same as that conferred to the Pope. Lee's authority basically only lines the walls of the LSM campus in Anaheim. The Blendeds claim that his authority has passed on to them much the same as the Papal Conclave convenes to select the apostolic successor to Saint Peter.

The Christian evangelical church, however, rejects these false "authorities." The Church only recognizes the authority established in scripture, and maintained according to the principles laid out in the New Testament. The true church recognizes no Pope nor MOTA, neither the false distorted oneness they employ in order to condemn other churches.

09-18-2018 02:31 PM

Evangelical

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

09-18-2018 02:27 PM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

09-18-2018 02:02 PM

ZNPaaneah

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Fair enough, lets accept your suggestion that there are human concepts expressed in God's word and let's also accept that there are human concepts expressed in God's word in the OT.

But how are you to know which is which? Evangelical's test is that if it is quoted in the NT that proves it is of God and worse yet, if it isn't that is conclusive proof that it was natural. This is a test that takes it out of the hands of a "MOTA" and can be determined with a concordance. The problem is that this makes the majority of the OT natural concepts.

Or you could take the WL approach which is that he has determined which is natural and which is "the high peak revelation". He has targeted, a couple of books in the OT he doesn't like and a couple of verses in the NT he doesn't like. But the only rhyme or reason is that these verses and books don't fit his overall thesis that well. Unless WL is God this suggests to me that the issue is with his thesis and not the Bible.

But perhaps you could enlighten us on how we distinguish which parts of God's word are truly inspired by God and which are simply the musings of the natural man.

09-18-2018 01:38 PM

Drake

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

Back to the title. Paul called the Psalms "the word of Christ", and nowhere do I see him (or others) indicating that this pertains only to 25% of the text.

What is astonishing is that thousands would fly in from around the world, and not one single question or objection like the ones I've raised here came forth in the training. This suggests that there's some powerful mind control going on, under the rubric of "oneness".

And the fact that my concerns are so breezily dismissed as, "Perhaps this is so", confirms my suspicions. We do not take the Bible seriously; rather we take "oneness" seriously.

09-18-2018 09:25 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

But where does Lee's authority come from to challenge the scripture? It is a self-assumed authority much the same as that conferred to the Pope. Lee's authority basically only lines the walls of the LSM campus in Anaheim.

Nowhere in NT reception of OT scripture to we see an invitation to the wholesale dismissal that it received at Lee's hands. Rather we consistently see the opposite.

Apparently he had a special dispensation as 'today's Paul', that allowed him to carve scripture into 'divine' and 'human' sections; the same 'apostolic privilege' that allowed him to place the selfish and carnal interests of his unspiritual sons above those of the flock. And this special dispensation allowed him to 'sail on' once the unpleasant truths came out. All these points are related, as poor theology allows bad behaviours.

Scripture is a mine to find the riches of Christ. Here's something from reading Psalm 9 several years ago, while we were discussing the "Outer darkness" thread. Scripture is higher, deeper, broader than the MOTA decoder ring can ever search out.

There was a man, and there were the jaws of death, the gates of Hades. The man won. Every one of us faces these jaws, and every one of us, while facing these jaws, gets to see (by faith) the man who won (by faith and obedience), the man who overcame. The Son of Man. The gates of Hades are now riven apart. Revelation 1:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

Psalm 9:13 "LORD, have mercy on me. See how I suffer at the hands of those who hate me. Snatch me back from the jaws of death." (NIV)

When God snatched Jesus back from the jaws of death, it was validation of the life that Jesus had lived. Jesus' moment-by-moment living in the Father's presence was validated by the Father in saving Jesus from the power of the grave.

Acts 17:31 "For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead."

Romans 1:1-4 "Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God— the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures regarding his Son, who as to his earthly life was a descendant of David, and who through the Spirit of holiness was appointed the Son of God in power by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord."

I believe that the release of the man Jesus from the power of the grave was a divine appointment; it was irrefutable proof to all that this is God's Son, the Lord and Christ. His living was entirely according to the will of God the Father. If you didn't realize this, and like Peter you set your mind on the things of the flesh, you got a quick and unequivocal, "Get behind Me, Satan!" To Jesus, the struggle to abide in the Father's kingdom was not the great bye-and-bye, but it was real, and immediate.

The 1,000 year 'interregnum' of John's Apocalypse is real; it is there in the holy revelation. But its exclusion isn't some crude Hollywood B-movie prison. The darkness of disobedience presses upon us continually. Jesus made it through alive and well, and His example is a clear invitation for us to follow. It is real, it is now, it is immediate, the power that raised our Saviour from the dead. Theology won't save us, no matter how many verses we've carefully arranged to "prove" our position. Salvation is now.

09-18-2018 06:37 AM

Ohio

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Let's test them then.

Is it Lee's fallen human concept to think that David's desire for God to slay his enemies was wrong? I would say no considering that David's rebellious son was God's correction for David's own adulterous behavior. And the New Testaments says to pray for and bless enemies, not curse. If David lived in the NT time and experienced God's grace and forgiveness, then perhaps David would have prayed for his sons salvation rather than defeat.

Is it Lee's fallen human concept to apply Psalm 68 to Christ? I would say no, considering that Psalm 68 is well recognized in Christianity to apply to Christ - verse 18 in particular.

If you disagree, how exactly are these footnotes "Lee's fallen human concept"? Let's keep it on topic - applied to Psalm 3 and Psalm 68.

What is fallen or human about Lee saying that David wishing evil on his enemies is wrong and Christ's victory of his enemies is right?

09-18-2018 06:04 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Wow! I mean Wow! Using this same logic most of the OT chapters are human concepts! No wonder he is called the "MOTA" because he alone is able to tell us which parts of God's word are the God's word that he agrees with.

Lee with the secret MOTA decoder ring could see "Christ" in the windows of Noah's ark. In the badger skins of the tabernacle. But not in the tree growing by the streams of water, whose leaf never withers, in Psalm 1:3. No, that was just a natural concept. You see, it wasn't cited in the NT. Sorry, Charlie.

And the presentation was apparently so impeccable, so faultless, so convincing, that not one of the audience stirred uneasily, suspecting something amiss. No, they all lined up afterward to praise the 'oracle'.

09-18-2018 05:13 AM

ZNPaaneah

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

09-18-2018 03:29 AM

Evangelical

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

Why should David the sinner have disqualified Psalm 16? Psalm 16 is about Christ because of Acts 2. Psalm 2 is also about Christ because of New Testament quotations.

A good test of whether a Psalm is about Christ or not is whether or not it is quoted in the New Testament. Here is a list of the Psalms which are quoted in the New Testament:

http://www.biblestudyguide.org/comme.../htm/xxxvi.htm

Notice that Psalm 2, Psalm 8, Psalm 16, Psalms 22 and 24, and Psalm 40 and Psalm 68 are in that list. These are the same Psalms that Lee said were about Christ.

Notice that Psalms 1, 3,4,6,7, 9,15, 17,21 are not in that list - those Psalms that Lee said contained human concepts.

I think this is strong proof that "human concept" Psalms are typically those which are not cited much (if at all) in the New Testament. Whereas the divine concept Psalms are those which are often cited in the New Testament.

09-18-2018 03:01 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

What is fallen or human about Lee saying that David wishing evil on his enemies is wrong and Christ's victory of his enemies is right?

I've addressed this repeatedly - Paul said, "We fight not against flesh and blood but against spiritual forces".

If you disqualify David on such grounds then you must also disqualify Samuel for striking Agag and David for causing physical harm to Goliath.

We are 600+ posts into this thread. Nowhere have I seen you, or Lee, grappling seriously with the implications if these issues. Instead we merely see arbitrary and conflicting dismissals of scripture as being of none effect.

Maybe you need to carefully pray-read those two NT words -"we fight". Or, "there was war in heaven". . .

09-18-2018 02:52 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

As far as "using this as an excuse to attack the recovery", there's this thing called the Bible. . .to dismiss it wholesale as mere human contrivance is serious, and should have basis.

09-18-2018 02:21 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

The Psalm topic is something Aron and I have gone back and forth on for a while.

Well I for one am happy to get closure. So let's see, 34 of the first 41 Psalms are disqualified as divine revelation because: A) the psalmist is a sinner and could not fulfill his declaration of fealty and reward (which would also disqualify Psalm 16); or B) because the psalmist expressed sentiments lacking the charity of the NT life (which would also disqualify Psalm 68).

Okay, got it. Sorry if I think that is arbitrary, disjointed, and contradictory but I do.

As far as "using this as an excuse to attack the recovery", there's this thing called the Bible, see? Aka "the word of God" and "scripture". To dismiss it wholesale as mere human concept is serious, and should have basis. Jesus said, "man . . . shall live by every word", not by a select few. There's no indication that Jesus dismissed scripture thus. Nor Paul or John. Lacking clear NT precedent, one should have some strong basis. I don't see it.

"David the sinner" should have disqualified Psalm 16. If you read Acts 2 and 13, it did not. What basis then did Lee have?

I do apologize if my own writings have lacked charity and grace.

09-17-2018 03:39 PM

Evangelical

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

I find it the height of hypocrisy, deception, and arrogance that Witness Lee could challenge Scripture to be expressing "fallen human concepts," yet his own footnotes and messages could not likewise be challenged.

09-17-2018 03:32 PM

Ohio

The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

How do we know if some of the RecV footnotes in the Psalms aren't merely expressing fallen human concepts? It sure looks plausible from here.

09-17-2018 03:30 PM

Evangelical

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Aron asked:

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

Why was David wrong to wish his enemies harm in Psalm 3, and yet in Psalm 68 wishing enemies harm was a type of Christ's victory over his enemies? The RecV footnotes are not consistent.

I have already explained to Aron that not all the answers to his questions are in the footnotes, but in the ministry books.

The short answer is that Psalm 3 is about David, his enemies and his life, and Psalm 68 is about God's enemies. Obviously there is a difference between wishing evil on our enemies, and asking God to deal with His enemies.

I will now give a more detailed answer to show how Aron's question about perceived inconsistency between Psalm 3 and 68 may be addressed.

LIFE-STUDY OF THE PSALMS MESSAGE FOUR explains that the Psalms were arranged in a certain way to show us that David needed correction. This is the book that Aron could have consulted to find a plausible reason for a perceived inconsistency in the footnotes.

Psalm 3 (Psalms 1 to 7) were about David's need for correction and discipline following his adultery. So these Psalms do not portray the sinless Christ but the human life of David and his reaction to God's correction.

In Psalm 1 David appreciates the law, but he was a law-breaker himself.
David committed adultery/murder with Bathsheba, repented, but is now suffering consequences for his sins at the hands of his rebellious son Absalom. In Psalm 3 he is calling for God to judge the wicked. Had he forgotten that he himself was a law-breaker and needed God's forgiveness?

Psalm 68 on the other hand is quite different. Psalm 68 starts with "May God arise, may his enemies be scattered". Psalm 68:18 and Ephesians 4:8 also shows us that this Psalm is about Christ's ascension. It follows logically that Psalm 68 would be about victory over Christ's enemies in His ascension.

In summary, there could be very good reasons why two apparently similar concepts may mean completely different things. Psalm 3 is about David, and Psalm 68 is about Christ.

To apply Psalm 3 to Christ would be as if to say that Christ needed correction or suffered because of his sins, when Christ was in fact sinless. To apply Psalm 68 to David would not make sense because it is clearly about God's enemies, not David's.

As a general comment about the Psalms - some Psalms are attributed to David and his life and do not prophesy about the Messiah. They show the human condition, the need to obey the law, the inability to keep it. They are part of the Old Testament which shows us our need for a Savior. On the other hand some Psalms or even just some verses in a particular Psalm are prophetic in that they foreshadow the Messiah or some New Testament truth. They foretell and affirm God's plan in giving us a Savior in Christ.

The Old Testament in general, does two things - 1) shows us our human condition and need for Christ. 2) Points us to Christ as the solution to our human condition. I think most wrong doctrines such as keeping the law for salvation or wishing evil on enemies are as a result of confusing the two purposes.

We must read the Old Testament from the New Testament perspective looking backwards and consider how it is related. Rather than doing what Aron is doing in comparing both Old Testament verses against each other - "these two verses in the Psalms say similar things but the footnote says different things, it's an inconsistency!".

09-17-2018 02:45 PM

Evangelical

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

Evangelical says he covered this issue at length on this thread. I'd appreciate someone pointing it out for us.

This is the kind of answer that Steel and Drake came up with. I'm not sure Evangelical even replied to the question.

How do we know if some of the RecV footnotes in the Psalms aren't merely expressing fallen human concepts? It sure looks plausible from here. Otherwise we'll have to assume that David often expressed such natural concepts in his writings, while Lee did not.

What kind of a Bible is that, based on such unchallenged assumptions? An idiosyncratic, personalised Bible. The ultimate vanity project.

We discussed Psalm 16 and others in "Repetition, Ritual, Religion".

I explained that not everything Lee wrote is found in the bible footnotes. Some of what you are looking for is found in his books.

This response might answer any and all questions you have on perceived inconsistencies or omissions in the Psalm footnotes.

09-17-2018 01:11 PM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

Why was David wrong to wish his enemies harm in Psalm 3, and yet in Psalm 68 wishing enemies harm was a type of Christ's victory over his enemies? The RecV footnotes are not consistent.

Evangelical says he covered this issue at length on this thread. I'd appreciate someone pointing it out for us.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Znp, sometimes the same writer expressed human concept and sometimes divine.

Happens all the time even here.

This is the kind of answer that Steel and Drake came up with. I'm not sure Evangelical even replied to the question.

How do we know if some of the RecV footnotes in the Psalms aren't merely expressing fallen human concepts? It sure looks plausible from here. Otherwise we'll have to assume that David often expressed such natural concepts in his writings, while Lee did not.

What kind of a Bible is that, based on such unchallenged assumptions? An idiosyncratic, personalised Bible. The ultimate vanity project.

02-22-2018 02:49 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

"Our soul is escaped as a bird from the snare of the fowlers; the snare is broken, and we are escaped" ~Psalm 124:7.

The fowler tricks the bird - he puts corn or some other grain on the ground. Perhaps a bread crumb. The bird sees it and flies down, and lands. But the bird doesn't see the noose. There's a bit of string and an entangling web of threads hidden there. The fowler pulls the string and the bird is caught.

When one footnote in the RecV says that the psalmist crushing his enemy's skull and bathing his feet in their blood is a type of Christ v/v the accuser Satan, while elsewhere in the same text (psalms) such sentiments are rejected as not "Christian" (i.e., love your enemies and forgive them, turn the other cheek), then a red light should go off for the reader, or hearer.

My question has been (and I apologise if I posed it too starkly & was disrespectful), what does this show about the system where these kinds of teachings were/are put forth? A training or seminar is held somewhere, and thousands of people fly in from around the country. At some point in the lecture series the speaker suddenly reverses field and what was once declared "Christ" now is "fallen", or vice versa, and among the many personal testimonies afterward, none step up to the microphone and make note of the glaring discrepancy. What's one to think, here?

It seems that the entire audience has suspended their critical thinking faculties via repetitive shouting, and/or those few who notice the problem are intimidated into silence. The birds all flew in for "food", but suddenly the string is pulled and the net falls.

01-07-2018 02:19 PM

leastofthese

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

In baseball terms, Drake welcomes your fast ball, your slow ball, your curve ball, or your spit ball. Bring it on. What Drake objects to is when you engage in pitching like this.

"Slow ball"?

You must be one of the 2,000 Canadians.

Sorry I couldn't help myself. Love you Drake!

01-07-2018 01:03 PM

Drake

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

-1

Brother Ohio,

Those arent bad pitches in the video... they are mostly intentional pitches directed at the batter to inflict personal injury. That’s what makes them so nasty. If you were frequently referred to as a deceiver, a liar, or a dope you’d understand the batters perspective and might be inclined to head straight for the mound too.

But look, it takes a lot of effort to make ones thoughts and attitudes clear in a post in a public forum like this one. Face to face there are many more signals available for effective communication.

Drake

01-07-2018 12:29 PM

Ohio

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Ohio>”Drake gets upset when I challenge his accounts,....”

Ohio, I thought we worked through this.

No, Drake does not get upset when you challenge his accounts. Drake objects when you resort to personal attacks like labeling him a deceiver, a liar, or a dope.

In baseball terms, Drake welcomes your fast ball, your slow ball, your curve ball, or your spit ball. Bring it on. What Drake objects to is when you engage in pitching like this.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XH7zpffBsJ0

Drake

Ouch! Some of those pitches are nasty. Baseball and hockey are way to violent for me! I prefer football and basketball. But kidding aside, none of my posts could ever be represented by these pitches.

Dear Drake, you have watched Witness Lee go after "batters" just like in the video. Look at what Benson Philips did to Jane Anderson 40 years ago. Public rebukes, humiliations, slanders, and then books and lawsuits. I could go on and on. Why don't you comment about all the lawsuits against Midwest LC's?

You justify the "bad pitches" when it's your team, but scream bloody murder when you're on the receiving end. That's not right.

01-07-2018 11:40 AM

Drake

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

01-07-2018 11:20 AM

Drake

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Aron>“And yet Drake tells us that questioning the status quo is the norm in the LC, or should be, if error emerges.”

Aron,

It’s only the way you state it that makes it an odd thing. I mean, we are not a debate club in the meetings.

Consider this: Over four decades statements have made, practices were advanced and recommendations to service were suggested that I did not always agree with. I may have missed the excitement, or I may have not understood, or I just might disagree with something. In one situation the local church I was in had two different practices..., that went on for about a month and then we all realized it wasn’t working so we did something different. We fellowshipped about it, openly, and what we decided what we would do was different than what was being suggested.

No one got called on the carpet, no one made demands, no one got fired. What was being advanced just did not work for us. In my view, this is the corporate experience of the four living creatures in Ezekiel. Here, then there, backwards, then forwards, then sideways..... just hang on, Gods move is His.

Now I suppose, had we wrote letters, phoned people up, called conferences to discuss, campaigned against it and tried to overturn it, then we might have been creating an incident and then there would something to discuss.

At the individual level, people tend to think whatever they want. In my locality a brother used to stand and read aloud poetry. It was not particularly good poetry because it was his own and he was not that good at it. Nevertheless, no one told him to stop and read instead the HWMR or get out. Today, I love to hear this brother speak. He is so clear cutting straight the word of God. In the case of a psalms I happen to agree with Brother Lee’s teaching there. It’s chicken to me. If I thought they were bones I’d spit them out.

That is why, I don’t really know the church experience you describe.

Drake

01-07-2018 10:14 AM

Ohio

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

And yet Drake tells us that questioning the status quo is the norm in the LC, or should be, if error emerges.

But it doesn't happen, because Witness Lee's logic was so impeccable? Please. I've seen posts on this thread from people who were at the Psalms training, who lowered their heads and made faces at each other while Lee delivered his clunkers. But they said nothing, because nobody questions the Guru.

Drake gets upset when I challenge his accounts, but many have questioned Lee's and LSM's leadership in the past. How could Lee direct the actions of LC's, when supposedly they are "local?" How can he exercise apostolic authority over LC's which he had never even visited? How can he demand that all the LC's teach only from his trainings?

Many, many mature men of God were convinced that LSM was taking over all the LC's and completely changing the nature of the Recovery. Receiving from LSM was no more optional. Receiving from other ministries was forbidden. Then the "straw that broke the camel's back" was the many reports of abuse and the molesting of sisters by Philip Lee.

Drake knows that he could never call out his leadership to be accountable. If Lee and LSM operate above the law, and can create new laws, then how would he ever know if "error emerges."

01-07-2018 05:56 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Many DID speak up, and were silenced. Made an example of! So that subsequent "questioners" preferred to leave quietly rather than endure the shame of public humiliations. .

And yet Drake tells us that questioning the status quo is the norm in the LC, or should be, if error emerges.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Why yes, aron. That should be what happens.

But it doesn't happen, because Witness Lee's logic was so impeccable? Please. I've seen posts on this thread from people who were at the Psalms training, who lowered their heads and made faces at each other while Lee delivered his clunkers. But they said nothing, because nobody questions the Guru.

01-06-2018 08:08 AM

Ohio

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

And you're telling me that several thousand people sat in front of this guy and not even one of them had this question? It's not that Lee's logic was unassailable but that his person was. He'd departed from the clear pattern of NT reception of OT scripture, yet none could say a word.

Many DID speak up, and were silenced. Made an example of! So that subsequent "questioners" preferred to leave quietly rather than endure the shame of public humiliations.

I wonder what would have happened at the Whistler Quarantine Kangaroo Court if Titus Chu and a few of his outspoken supporters would have been there.

01-06-2018 06:36 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Lee says Psalm 40 speaks about Christ so I'm not sure what your problem is:

The first book of the Psalms comprises Psalms 1—41. We should not forget that in this first book there are seven psalms which speak concerning Christ: Psalm 2, Psalm 8, Psalm 16, Psalms 22—24, and Psalm 40. ~Life study of Psalms.

Sorry if my presentation skills don't match the subject. My question has been, Why use one metric, that of the sinful psalmist pointing to Christ, in those few psalms, and in the rest disqualify them because the psalmist is a sinner and can't fulfill his statement?

I tried to show out the absurdity of using the "sinful psalmist" metric to disqualify the text, when the NT writer had explicitly used it to mine revelation. I know Lee didn't reject Psalm 40 as natural; NT usage wouldn't let him. But elsewhere he did just that, and not occasionally.

Why is Psalm 16 revelatory of Christ and Psalm 18 - " He rescued me because He delighted in me"- not? The same frail, sinful man wrote them both.

And you're telling me that several thousand people sat in front of this guy and not even one of them had this question? It's not that Lee's logic was unassailable but
that his person was. He'd departed from the clear pattern of NT reception of OT scripture, yet none could say a word.

01-06-2018 02:53 AM

ZNPaaneah

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Why yes,aron. Thst should be what happens. That doesn't mean He will and it doesn't mean you throw everything else out if and when He does.

Drake

Hence this forum.

01-06-2018 02:41 AM

Evangelical

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

The following was on another thread but I hear the theme often, and I think it can wrongly color understanding and interpretation of OT scripture. And Lee abused it, whether deliberately or unconsciously, and led us astray.

Suppose you're reading the OT text in Psalm 40 and you come to the part where the writer says, "I come to do your will O God - behold, in the scroll of the book it is written concerning me". And you go, "Hey, this looks like Christ". The Spirit reveals the Son and you hear the voice of the Shepherd and get life.

John 14:26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

John 15:26 "When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father--the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father--he will testify about me.

1 Cor 2:10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.

John 5:25 Truly, truly, I tell you, the hour is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

Etc.

But then someone from the LSM-affiliated 'local church' (LC) comes by and says, "No, sorry; that's just the vain and natural concepts of the psalm writer. You see, the psalmist was a sinner and couldn't please God, or do His will."

And you go, "But what of Christ?"

And the LC person says, "It's naturally understood that we're excluding Christ, here."

My refrain from the first post of this thread has been, why do we so assiduously exclude Christ from our reading of OT scripture? Witness Lee, more often than not, called the Psalms "natural concepts" and "fallen" and "mixed sentiments", not considering if the writer, admittedly a sinner, looked ahead to the promised Messiah, under the influence of the Holy Spirit.

Yet the reception of the above OT text by Hebrews 10:7-9, strongly indicates an example of this trend. Yet Witness Lee went against the clear and repeated pattern of NT reception and panned the majority of the psalms. He excluded Christ from consideration, either deliberately or unconsciously, and nobody could say anything.

So my question has been, How could several thousand people sit in a conference hall, and listen to message after message in this vein, and not one of them could be bothered, and stir, and raise a question? This is the dark side of the "oneness" movement - when the leader errs, the whole thing goes into the ditch.

On the day of Pentecost, Peter said that David was a prophet and looked ahead to the God-promised holy seed (Acts 2:30). The clear pattern of NT reception of OT scripture follows this. Yet Lee ignored it. And the whole LC assembly sat there, passively absorbing it all without one peep of protest. What kind of gospel has been preached, here? And what kind of ministry is this? I say that it's full of human error.

We all err. But if we build a man-honoring system that denies any correction, eventually the error will grow and grow and consume everything.

01-06-2018 01:22 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

If we say "no one can obey the Father" this is normally understood to exclude Christ.

Suppose you're reading the OT text in Psalm 40 and you come to the part where the writer says, "I come to do your will O God - behold, in the scroll of the book it is written concerning me". And you go, "Hey, this looks like Christ". The Spirit reveals the Son and you hear the voice of the Shepherd and get life.

John 14:26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

John 15:26 "When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father--the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father--he will testify about me.

1 Cor 2:10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.

John 5:25 Truly, truly, I tell you, the hour is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

Etc.

But then someone from the LSM-affiliated 'local church' (LC) comes by and says, "No, sorry; that's just the vain and natural concepts of the psalm writer. You see, the psalmist was a sinner and couldn't please God, or do His will."

And you go, "But what of Christ?"

And the LC person says, "It's naturally understood that we're excluding Christ, here."

My refrain from the first post of this thread has been, why do we so assiduously exclude Christ from our reading of OT scripture? Witness Lee, more often than not, called the Psalms "natural concepts" and "fallen" and "mixed sentiments", not considering if the writer, admittedly a sinner, looked ahead to the promised Messiah, under the influence of the Holy Spirit.

Yet the reception of the above OT text by Hebrews 10:7-9, strongly indicates an example of this trend. Yet Witness Lee went against the clear and repeated pattern of NT reception and panned the majority of the psalms. He excluded Christ from consideration, either deliberately or unconsciously, and nobody could say anything.

So my question has been, How could several thousand people sit in a conference hall, and listen to message after message in this vein, and not one of them could be bothered, and stir, and raise a question? This is the dark side of the "oneness" movement - when the leader errs, the whole thing goes into the ditch.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2 Peter 1

19 We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

On the day of Pentecost, Peter said that David was a prophet and looked ahead to the God-promised holy seed (Acts 2:30). The clear pattern of NT reception of OT scripture follows this. Yet Lee ignored it. And the whole LC assembly sat there, passively absorbing it all without one peep of protest. What kind of gospel has been preached, here? And what kind of ministry is this? I say that it's full of human error.

We all err. But if we build a man-honoring system that denies any correction, eventually the error will grow and grow and consume everything.

01-05-2018 05:18 PM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Why yes,aron. Thst should be what happens. That doesn't mean He will and it doesn't mean you throw everything else out if and when He does.

Drake

But if you try to function, you are accused of being independent, rebellious, or ambitious. you have to be a tape recorder. And if the tape excludes Christ, and denigrates the scripture as fallen human concepts, you have to still record the tape, and play back.

This is the essence of the "oneness" church. If the leader goes into the ditch, you have to follow.

01-05-2018 04:53 PM

Drake

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

Not strictly Ed Marks and what he sees, but rather why can't the Holy Spirit enlighten anyone, including the current Blendeds? Suppose someone sees Christ. Ed says the Father delights in the Son. Someone, anyone, sees Christ. Yet Witness Lee taught us to exclude Christ, that he isn't there, that the scripture, say Psalm 18, is vain concepts. What to do? How to function in this environment? What if you see Christ? You have to pretend to be blind.

Why yes,aron. Thst should be what happens. That doesn't mean He will and it doesn't mean you throw everything else out if and when He does.

Drake

01-05-2018 03:47 PM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

aron>"o now, when Ed Marks is giving a conference message, he can say, "I see something Witness Lee didn't see.", or "Here, Witness Lee was entertaining natural concepts", or "Here we can see Witness Lee being inconsistent in his interpretations", or "Here we can see Witness Lee violating the NT principle of scriptural reception", etc."

Yet, what if Ed doesn't see that way at all?

I think you are doing it here... is your question why shouldn't any member be able to just stand up in the meeting and say those things?

Drake

01-05-2018 03:43 PM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Suppose we were in a meeting and the presence of the Spirit of Christ put us into fits of ecstasy, and thousands pressed around us, wondering what was going on: what would we tell them? That we were going to talk of the vanity of the law-keepers, and that we were going to exclude Christ?

Because, you see, "No one can please God." What kind of a gospel message is that?

Or would we tell them that the frail, feeble and failing sinners who wrote scripture were under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and were anticipating the promised Coming One?

01-05-2018 03:37 PM

Drake

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

01-05-2018 01:18 PM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

No one is usurping His headship.

If Peter stood with the eleven, and said, "David was a sinner. His word was just fallen natural concept", and dismissed the assembly, what kind of a gospel would that be? (Acts 2:14-36). Yet this is what Lee did. He said, "Nobody can keep the law" and dismissed the scripture as fallen and natural.

In this way Witness Lee usurped the headship, by deviating from the clear pattern of scriptural reception in the NT. He deviated from the headship because nobody in the crowd could say, "Wait a minute". In other words, Witness Lee wasn't just another bozo with an opinion, possibly right and possibly wrong. Witness Lee was defining doctrine for the church, and defining which scriptures were "revelatory of Christ" and which were "natural".

So if Ed Marks gives a message on the Father's delight in the Son, and shows NT verses, he can't get light and show, say, Psalm 18's "He (the Father) rescued Me (the Son) because He delighted in Me". No, Lee shut the door on the light. We can't see Christ there because Lee said it's just a fallen sinner presuming falsely before God. So Ed Marks' mouth is shut, as is everyone in the LSM church. Because Lee has spoken.

If Lee was just another bozo with an opinion, occasionally right and occasionally wrong, we could profit somewhat, and make the necessary corrections, and go on. But in the LSM church we can't make any corrections. So we're stuck.

So now what? You say, "Go somewhere else where you get light"? Is that the new ground? "The local church of Lee isn't for everyone"? How do we all arrive at the one new man?

01-05-2018 01:08 PM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

-1

aron>"How do we assume that Witness Lee was so transformed by this "life long process" that all his judgments were true"

That is true for all of us. Includes mine and your posts.

So now what?

Drake

So now, when Ed Marks is giving a conference message, he can say, "I see something Witness Lee didn't see.", or "Here, Witness Lee was entertaining natural concepts", or "Here we can see Witness Lee being inconsistent in his interpretations", or "Here we can see Witness Lee violating the NT principle of scriptural reception", etc.

How come we can say this with Martin Luther, but not with Witness Lee? How come Witness Lee can pan Peter or James or Malachi or David, but nobody in the conference can stand up and say, "Wait a minute here - not so fast"?

So now what? If that's true with Witness Lee why don't we see any evidence of that? All I see is evidence of him dismissing scripture as natural concepts, but nobody being able to do the same with him.

None of us presume to be so "transformed by the life process" that we are beyond further correction. Why can nobody correct Lee?

01-05-2018 10:31 AM

Drake

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

-1

ZNP,

It seems to me that if one believes that everything in the Bible is God's divine concept and thought except what is specifically called out as not then there are many things that we will never learn from in the Scriptures... it is as important to see the error of others and learn from them. In my view it is all divinely inspired to be in the Scriptures but it does all represent God's concept and thought even when it is not called out specifically.

Brother Lee was a gifted teacher. I agree with his viewpoint on this and his examples in psalms. That is not elevating him above the scriptures anymore than any bible teacher that uses the scriptures to comment on and apply the scriptures to any situation. His point is to look for the divine concept and thought when you read the psalms or the prophets and not lose sight that Christ is the centrality and sum of all spiritual matters. For me, I believe that is right and my sense before the Lord is that it is right and that it is alright. No one is usurping His headship. He gave some apostles, prophets, and teachers. If Witness Lee is not a gift in your christian walk then find those that are. He does the giving and we do the receiving. Just follow the Lord and consider the gifts He gave to the Body.

Drake

01-05-2018 10:00 AM

ZNPaaneah

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

We know Satan's thoughts infiltrated Peter's because Jesus told us and it as recorded in the Bible. We know what the serpent said because it was recored in the Bible. But who decides when the Psalmists and Prophets didn't get it right? You have put that person above the Bible. No longer is the Bible the sole arbiter (something I was told), no longer is all scripture God breathed and our highest authority. Now, when WL says they got it wrong WL becomes a higher authority than the word of God. Anyone who has anything to do with the LRC needs to be aware of this. If they still want to remain then that decision will be on them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Consider it this way. Today men have something they did not have in the Old Testament. ., we have the Spirit Himself within to guide, inspire, and speak according to the Spirit's leading in every situation. And yet, everything a man of God says may or may not be the Lord's speaking. Even Paul said things he did know if it was Lord speaking or himself. Still, whatever he said was recorded in scripture and profitable for us. Similar with Peters words which were a personification of Satan's thought.... still recorded and still profitable... even as a warning to us. So, we have the Spirit to divide soul from spirit and it is a life long process. The OT prophets and psalmists did not. Not everything they said was spirit and not soul.

Drake

According to who? Who decides what is of Spirit and what is not? This is a very different explanation of how it is usually spun. The NT says "Judas hanged himself" doesn't mean we should do likewise. Satan asked a question, not the quote of God, but it is God who is quoting Satan to reveal something to us so we are not ignorant of Satan and his devices.

But you have taken this to a very different place. Now WL can proclaim that this prophet was not speaking in the Spirit but according to his natural concept. God didn't say this. Jesus didn't say this. Nowhere in the Bible is it recorded that this is the case. Instead Witness Lee said this. Once you accept this you have "the Bible according to Witness Lee". Proverbs lacks the "vision", minor prophets speak according to the natural concept, the Psalmists speak according to natural concept, James didn't have a clear vision, etc.

Again, I point out, if you are in the LRC you must be aware of this and then you will be held accountable for how you respond to this fact.

01-05-2018 09:49 AM

Drake

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

01-05-2018 09:39 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

So, we have the Spirit to divide soul from spirit and it is a life long process. The OT prophets and psalmists did not. Not everything they said was spirit and not soul.

How do we assume that Witness Lee was so transformed by this "life long process" that all his judgments were true? He arbitrarily picked out "revelations" from the rest which was "natural". Probably 70% of the Psalms, for example, were deemed "natural". But there was no consistency to his work.

If you look at Psalm 45, for example, one verse has "His arrows are sharp, in the heart of his enemy". This of course is violent! Not the NT grace at all! But Lee ignored it, with no comment (footnote) because he was busy showing "Christ" in Psalm 45. Yet elsewhere imprecations are held out as "natural" and "fallen".

Or, when Samuel slew Agag, or David slew Goliath. No panning of the protagonist as lacking grace. No lectures about turning the other cheek. Yet in the Psalms footnotes you can repeatedly see this kind of commentary.

So Drake et al will say, "some is natural, some is spiritual" but not mention that Lee violated NT reception precedent (the OT author was indeed fallen, but still pointed to Christ, not self [e.g., Peter in Acts 2 referencing Psalms 16]), or that Lee was inconsistent and arbitrary in application. The bottom line is, Lee said it, therefore it must be so.

This makes it, not "the" Bible, but the "Lee Bible". Not the same thing. The difference is too great, as Lee himself would say. Crucial!

01-05-2018 07:00 AM

Drake

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

-1

ZNP, all scripture is God breathed and profitable. Satan's thoughts and deeds are recorded there, man's words are recorded there, man's concepts about God and the things of God are recorded there. ... Satan's infiltrating man thoughts are recorded there, and God's words are there, God's speaking through psalmists, prophets, and servants is recorded there even when they sometimes do not get it right.

Consider it this way. Today men have something they did not have in the Old Testament. ., we have the Spirit Himself within to guide, inspire, and speak according to the Spirit's leading in every situation. And yet, everything a man of God says may or may not be the Lord's speaking. Even Paul said things he did know if it was Lord speaking or himself. Still, whatever he said was recorded in scripture and profitable for us. Similar with Peters words which were a personification of Satan's thought.... still recorded and still profitable... even as a warning to us. So, we have the Spirit to divide soul from spirit and it is a life long process. The OT prophets and psalmists did not. Not everything they said was spirit and not soul.

Drake

01-05-2018 04:59 AM

ZNPaaneah

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

ZNP,

My view is still the same as it was when I posted this note.

Drake

My view is that the writers of the Bible were not "Satan". Even Peter, though his speaking was "one with Satan" had repented and been transformed.

So the quotes of Satan speaking are similar to a Prosecuting attorney quoting a suspect. Yes it is a direct quote from Satan, but in context it is full of revelation, light and instruction.

However, the quotes I gave from Witness Lee are quite different. He says that the writers of the Psalms wrote based on their natural concept and he says that several of the Minor prophets wrote entire chapters based on their natural human concept.

When the Bible tells us that "this is a quote from Satan" then I am not being arrogant to say "this is a quote from Satan". But when I set myself up as a judge to decide which Bible verses are beneficial (the kernel) and which are the husk. Which ones are good for food and which ones aren't. That is arrogance. I think it is crucial that anyone associated or considering becoming associated with the Local Churches be aware of these quotes from Witness Lee.

When I first began to meet I asked about the Bible and I was told repeatedly with full assurance that "the Bible is the word of God", and "every single verse is the word of God" and the "Bible is the highest authority and our only authority". That is not true. Witness Lee's conclusions that certain books, chapters, and authors are writing according to their natural concept, human concept, or are not clear on the NT vision indicates that Witness Lee has set himself up as a higher authority to judge the Bible.

01-05-2018 02:43 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

ZNP,

My view is still the same as it was when I posted this note.

Drake

"We see instances of natural concepts" - and yet you see no natural concepts in the ministry of Lee? I see loads. And yes in yours and mine as well. Why is it that Witness Lee got to decide which of the scriptures were revelatory and which were not, and yet we're precluded from making the same assessments of his output? What force is at work, here?

01-04-2018 08:13 PM

Drake

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

ZNP,

The Bible is the Word of God and the writers were inspired by the Holy Spirit and all that is documented is for our benefit.

The Bible imparts insight to many things: God and all things related to Him including the church, then the law, many characteristics of man, culture, Satan, religions, politics, prophecy, the beginning and end of the earth and the universe, etc. In most of the books of the Bible some combination of these are revealed.

For instance, what is the significance of the Lord rebuking Peter calling him Satan? Peter loved the Lord and wanted to protect Him. He sliced off a servants ear. He said he would follow the Lord all the way and yet he denied him three times before the sun rose. Isn't that instructive to us? Isn't the Bible exposing something about our human nature, even our good human nature, even our natural love for God, matters that are contrary to God's will? Why are those things recorded in the Bible if not to edify, instruct us, and alert us what to avoid. The Bible is inspired even if what is revealed is natural or about human nature, good and bad.

So, I believe that you have to weigh what you are reading, understand what the Spirit is speaking, and seek the instruction and guidance into the reality of God. I also believe the Old Testament is more prone to human concepts because the revelation of the New Testament was unclear at the time of writing. It is no less inspired but we see instances of natural concepts and they are recorded there for a reason.

Drake

ZNP,

My view is still the same as it was when I posted this note.

Drake

12-14-2016 06:10 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

When Paul traveled to the Gentile lands bring the gospel, he always went to synagogues first. . . perhaps that was partly done because the OT scriptures were there, and Paul could begin to "connect" these new believers with the prophecies of the Christ.

Yes I think so. And look how they used it. "The heavens declare the glory of God. The skies proclaim His handiwork. Day after day, they testify. Night after night they tell of Him. There is no speech, nor even words; nothing our ears can ever discern. But their voice goes out through all of the world. Their testimony to all of the earth." Now, how would I connect that passage of the heavens, with "the word of Christ"? Do you see that as an invitation, or a connection, to preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ as Lord? Paul did. He used it in Romans 10 in his discussion of faith coming by hearing.

The NT writers took great imaginative liberties (or 'revelatory' if you prefer) with the text. They "saw Jesus", as the writer of the epistle to the Hebrews put it, temporarily made lower than angels, then crowned with glory and honor. Again and again the human Christ was seen in the experiences of the godly poet.

But when Psalm 19, used by Paul, talks of the law, Lee balked; he said it wasn't God's economy. Yet arguably, "Christ is the end of the law" in NT epistle, not because He ignored it, but because He fulfilled it. Now we Christians see, by faith, and we thus actively "hear the word of Christ" per Romans 10. And thus, and only thus, are we saved.

Today of course we do have the NT books, epistles of Paul, written gospels, and so forth. But if we ignore that which they constantly referenced, in appeals to their hearers and readers then we risk a shallow reading. Which is what I think Lee gave us.

Now LC followers might say that in certain parts he did extract revelations from the OT text. But I say that his repeated dismissal of the Psalms as natural, as in his extensive footnote in Psalm 19, not only kept people out, but discouraged them from even trying. In LC-speak, God's present oracle has spoken; therefore the scripture is natural, fallen concepts, and not looking away to Jesus but looking away from Jesus. But I say that repeated NT citation shows that those writers and speakers thought the opposite of the Bible expositor.

So Psalm 19's "Do not let sin rule over me" is not fulfilled by our keeping the law, but by our seeing Jesus. Yet who will pray, if Lee has already waved them off? "How then, can they call, without having heard?" (Rom 10:14).

Paul said salvation is by faith, and faith by hearing. Lee crippled "the word of Christ" by his characterization.

12-14-2016 05:00 AM

Ohio

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

I was reading Romans 10 the other day. "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ" (v. 17). The reference in the RecV says Colossians 3:16. "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly". Then the next verse quotes Psalm 19. "Their voice has gone out into all of the earth/their testimony to all of the world". But Witness Lee in his footnote in Psalm 19 panned the text. God doesn't care about this, said Lee, but about His eternal economy.

But again I return to the idea of the word of Christ, as presented by Paul. How many of what we call the NT texts did the Romans or Colossians have at that point? They may have had some gospel texts, sayings of Jesus. Doubtful they had an extant copy of what we'd call the Gospel of Mark, or Luke. Certainly John's gospel, no. Maybe an epistle of Paul (see e.g., Col 4:16 "read the letter to the Laodiceans").

No, the word of Christ to which Paul referred was undoubtedly the OT. The very texts cited by Paul, which Witness Lee so quickly dismissed.

When Paul traveled to the Gentile lands bring the gospel, he always went to synagogues first. I wonder if perhaps that was partly done because the OT scriptures were there, and Paul could begin to "connect" these new believers with the prophecies of the Christ.

12-14-2016 03:31 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

11-19-2016 01:10 PM

Ohio

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

I believe that Lee only saw Jesus in Psalm 16 because Acts 2 and 13 said it was Jesus. Then, Lee rejected Jesus in Psalm 18 because David was a sinner. Huh? Is that a satisfactory answer? Does that sound like the fruit of 50 years of consideration? No, it sounds like rejection out of hand, to me. No careful consideration, no prayerful musings. Just rejection. Lee saw the word "law" in Psalm 1, and said, "Aha - natural! Nobody's saved by keeping the law!" Then he had carte blanche to reject the Psalms as vain words coming from fallen men's human concepts.

I would like to know, verse by verse, how much Lee received as revelation based on his own labor in the word, and how much he merely stole from others, primarily Nee and the Exclusive Brethren, you know, "standing on their shoulders."

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

Suppose Ed Marks or Kerry Robichaux, two of the current leaders, suddenly get a revelation from heaven: the Blessed Man of Psalm 1 is none other than the Man Jesus Christ!

And then the light fades and they're alone again, and they look at each other in astonishment. What can they do? They can't go against Lee!

Here it is Nee's infamous saying which must guide them, "Whenever we have two interpretations of the scripture, someone is not holding the Head."

11-19-2016 10:33 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Igzy

Lee ran with this idea of "natural concepts" to the point where a natural concept was anything but his proprietary "God's economy" theology.

Everyone here agrees that not every word of the Psalms has to be a "word of Christ" per Col 3:16 or a word of "spirit and life" per John 6:63. Many psalms are shown to be revelatory of Christ by NT reception, some seem iffy at best. But given clear and repeated NT citation we'd do well to at least consider Christ, and not reject out of hand simply because the author of the psalm was a sinner. If that were our metric what would happen to the Bible!

Or that the psalm's author expresses "fighting words" or "judging words" - what of the sobering scenes in the NT of the Judgment Seat of Christ, or the clear spiritual struggles portrayed? "Then there was war in heaven; Michael and his angels struggled against...." . . should we think that here the NT author was expressing vain, pre-NT concepts, or that the angel Michael in heaven should 'turn the other cheek' and love his foe? Hardly. So, why a knee-jerk dismissal of such spiritual principles when we see physical struggle or judgment referenced in OT psalms? Why not take a moment or two and consider the unseen, eternal spiritual world(s) beyond the temporal physical one (2 Cor 4:18; cf 1 John 2:16,17)?

On a related note, coming to Igzy's quote above, it's long seemed to me that there were two "untouchables" in the Bible for Lee: one was Jesus Himself, and the second was Paul. Jesus is obviously the sinless Lamb of God, but Paul has a special place because of Lee's cultural and social yardsticks: Paul was the untouchable one, the apostle of the age, so-called, and everyone else had to "get in line" behind Paul. Paul was positionally untouchable, per Lee's oriental cultural/societal understanding. Social cohesion, shared meaning, values, and purpose - here, the church as Lee imagined it - needed a center. Thus, to Lee, Paul couldn't be seen making doctrinal error. Peter could err, and did, as James could, and as John could, but not Paul. Nor by extension could Nee (except for the early book "Spiritual Man", largely plagiarized from the unbalanced Penn-Lewis). Lee was consistent from Day One: proper church order meant one person had to step up and be Deputy God and everyone else had to arrange their spiritual, social, mental and behavioral worlds around that fixed point. I heard that concept reinforced a million times while in the LC. Everyone got it. Nobody forgot it. It was ingrained, unquestioned local church culture.

Now, how does that play out when we come to Psalms? Lee with his "Economy of God" metric could weigh psalms in the balance and find them wanting. But nobody could ever weigh or critically evaluate Lee; none put him in the same scale he put everything else in, including the Bible. Lee was positionally untouchable: he'd cavalierly dismiss the "vain concepts" and "natural thinking" of the writers of scripture, but nobody could ask if he ever suffered from the same malady.

11-19-2016 09:50 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

The main psalms concerning Christ: Psa. 2, 8, 16, 22, 23, 24, 45, 68, 80, 91, 110, 118

These are just the main aspects; there are many details which could be filled in. It is clear that through the Psalms we can know Christ much better than through the New Testament."

Drake

You've got to be kidding me. "There are many details which could be filled in..." by whom? If Lee didn't fill them in, who gets permission, under "One Trumpet" and "One Publication"? You? Me? I doubt it. This type of word was merely a sop for the conscience's of the faithful, or a fig leaf to cover for the newbies. Lee was a master at talking out of both sides of his mouth, and we learned to ignore one and pay attention to the other.

Suppose Ed Marks or Kerry Robichaux, two of the current leaders, suddenly get a revelation from heaven: the Blessed Man of Psalm 1 is none other than the Man Jesus Christ! They're sitting in the study room one day, reading Deuteronomy 17:14-20 together, which talks about the king whom Jehovah chooses, who shall read and keep the law all the days of his life, and whom (btw) Lee said doesn't exist, because the king was desired by the people and was thus offensive to God, and suddenly the room is filled with great light and an angel of God is standing there and says, "Oh ye of little faith! Can't you see the Messiah, plainly depicted here!? This King is none other than the King of Israel, who is the Son of God!"

And then the light fades and they're alone again, and they look at each other in astonishment. What can they do? They can't go against Lee! So they have a dilemma; they either go with God's word and the revelation of the Holy Spirit showing them the person and righteous human living (i.e. 'works') of the Lord Jesus Christ, or they go with the teachings and doctrines of LSM and RecV footnotes. What to do?

How come the Blessed Man from Psalm 1 isn't the Enthroned King from Psalm 2? If you or I, or anyone, tries to "fill in this detail", or any other that goes against Lee's "natural concept" teaching, what would happen? You and I both know what would happen.

11-19-2016 09:31 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

You took his words out of context.

Read the whole post. Read his other posts.

I'll let him respond further.

If you look at Lee's list of revelatory psalms, provided by Drake in post #595, they're all the ones cited in the NT, except for item 16 (Psalm 23, commonly held), and item 19. So of course he'll see Jesus there: he's required to by NT reception.

When I said that Lee wouldn't "see Jesus" in the text, this referenced psalms having similar and even identical principles; let's say, the righteous man suffering unjustly, and hoping for deliverance, or the man who obeys God's will, and hopes for reward, and so forth. Lee would usually say, "No, no one's righteous; or, No, nobody is obedient to God; or, No, salvation is not a reward but is by grace. . .we all know that David was a sinner", etc. So e.g. "He (the Father) rescued Me (the Son) because He delighted in Me" in Psalm 18 was held by Lee as natural, even though the Father's delight has clear NT parallel and reinforcement. So I wrote that he wouldn't see Jesus if He waved His hand in his face.

I believe that Lee only saw Jesus in Psalm 16 because Acts 2 and 13 said it was Jesus. Then, Lee rejected Jesus in Psalm 18 because David was a sinner. Huh? Is that a satisfactory answer? Does that sound like the fruit of 50 years of consideration? No, it sounds like rejection out of hand, to me. No careful consideration, no prayerful musings. Just rejection. Lee saw the word "law" in Psalm 1, and said, "Aha - natural! Nobody's saved by keeping the law!" Then he had carte blanche to reject the Psalms as vain words coming from fallen men's human concepts.

But I say, "Christ is the end of the law" (Rom 10:4) wasn't a contravention of law but its fulfillment - the law was not annulled but kept, and thus completed - I say, Psalm 1 was not vain, because arguably Christ fulfilled it. Yet to Lee it was vanity, merely because the psalmist was a sinner! I find this line of thinking to be completely unsatisfactory because: A) it's illogical, and it produces a strange, dichotomous "natural" versus "revelatory" Bible, and B) it apparently never considers Christ at all, but dismisses the possibility out of hand.

Notice that Lee never said Psalm 1, 3, 18, 34, 35 etc etc couldn't be prophetic utterance of Jesus Christ because of something intrinsic to the text itself; no, he says it isn't revelatory of Christ because the psalmist was a sinner! Well if that was our evaluatory criterion, then Psalm 16, "You will not let my flesh see corruption" would be disqualified also, but look how Peter in Acts 2 and Paul in Acts 13 dealt with that! But I never saw Lee try to deal with it, to puzzle it through, to think, to pray, to muse, to wrestle. All I see is cavalier dismissal. Thus my rather harsh statement that he wouldn't see Jesus if He waved His hand in his face.

11-19-2016 08:52 AM

Cal

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

So, I believe that you have to weigh what you are reading, understand what the Spirit is speaking, and seek the instruction and guidance into the reality of God. I also believe the Old Testament is more prone to human concepts because the revelation of the New Testament was unclear at the time of writing. It is no less inspired but we see instances of natural concepts and they are recorded there for a reason.

Drake

I think it's reasonable to wonder when David asked God to crush his (David's) enemies whether David was expressing God's nature at that time and whether we should imitate David's vindictiveness. My own conclusion is to take David's requests as calls for justice and defense, rather than as expectations of payback for his sake.

But Lee took this kind of questioning beyond just whether we should indulge in David-like vindictiveness. Lee ran with this idea of "natural concepts" to the point where a natural concept was anything but his proprietary "God's economy" theology.

Like Lee, you easily throw out this term "natural concept" as if you know exactly what is and is not one. But that's the essence of the whole error that aron is trying to refute in this thread. What Lee and you think are "natural concepts" may or may not be. Further, there is no indication from the Bible that a natural concept, whatever may be one, is always a bad or even inferior one.

Lee was very self-serving in that he would smoothly use terms like "natural concept" to essentially say "I'm right and everyone else is wrong" or, worse, "Stop thinking and just agree with me."

11-19-2016 07:48 AM

Drake

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Your post comes across as a way to equate believing that the Bible is the word of God being equal to anything.

My understanding when you say that the Bible is the word of God, is that the Bible is Holy, it expresses God's holy nature.

A writer of the Bible is not expressing his natural fallen mind. The words are the expression of the revelation of God to man.

Okay, I think I get what you are saying. However, in the Bible we see God's nature revealed and yet many other things are revealed also.

The natural concepts may be expressed by persons written about or by the writers themselves. In any scenario, the Bible is God's speaking to man, men writing under inspiration of the Holy Spirit, proitable for instruction, teaching, and edification.

Drake

11-19-2016 04:54 AM

ZNPaaneah

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

11-19-2016 04:36 AM

Drake

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

(in contrast with God's holy nature, i.e. Holy Bible).

I don't understand why you added "i.e. Holy Bible"

Please clarify.

11-19-2016 04:01 AM

Ohio

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

You took his words out of context.

Read the whole post. Read his other posts.

I'll let him respond further.

11-19-2016 03:52 AM

Drake

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Drake, I have been reading aron's post for years, including the ones on this thread, and he has NEVER said that Witness Lee "did not see Jesus in the Psalms." You have misread his posts completely.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

His mind was made up, and wouldn't see Jesus if He reached up out of the page and waved His hand in his face.

- - - - - - - -

11-19-2016 03:51 AM

Ohio

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

aron, that is what meant before when I said that you do not address what Brother Lee actually taught. You are making stuff up and you do everyone a disservice no matter which side you are on. Learn the facts then have at it.
Here is one example from one book alone that refutes your assertions that he did not see Jesus in the Psalms. The reader can decide for themselves from this concluding summary from the book

Drake, I have been reading aron's post for years, including the ones on this thread, and he has NEVER said that Witness Lee "did not see Jesus in the Psalms." You have misread his posts completely. Also, numerous authors and commentaries can provide the same list which you posted above. Lee often used others' works and did not properly reference them in his books, giving you the i pression that his writing was original.

What aron has said, and has said it repeatedly, was that Lee dismissed many Psalms as "natural or fallen concepts." I too heard this many times from Lee. He also similarly dismissed the book of James.

Perhaps this forum can help you learn "the facts."

11-18-2016 06:23 PM

ZNPaaneah

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

It is very different to say that the Bible reveals, exposes or shines a light on the natural concept. That is not what Witness Lee taught. Witness Lee taught that the writer of the Bible (in this case David) wrote according to the natural concept, the natural logic, human concept and was "very natural" (in contrast with God's holy nature, i.e. Holy Bible).

Yes, I agree with pretty much everything you say here, except when applied to Witness Lee's teachings on Psalms, which of course is the context of our discussion.

11-18-2016 04:01 PM

Drake

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

My question is does this happen in every book of the Bible? Are you saying that every writer of every book of the Bible is expressing human concepts sometimes and sometimes divine concepts?
If your answer is yes then how can you claim that the Bible is the word of God?
If your answer is no, then it goes back to your original response concerning David, WL's teaching is not typical of all writers but was specific to Psalms.

11-18-2016 03:21 PM

Drake

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

Maybe Lee had too many years of consideration. His mind was made up, and wouldn't see Jesus if He reached up out of the page and waved His hand in his face.

aron, that is what meant before when I said that you do not address what Brother Lee actually taught. You are making stuff up and you do everyone a disservice no matter which side you are on. Learn the facts then have at it.

Here is one example from one book alone that refutes your assertions that he did not see Jesus in the Psalms. The reader can decide for themselves from this concluding summary from the book Christ and the Church Revealed and Typified in the Psalms.

CONCERNING CHRIST

Let us consider now all the main aspects of Christ in the Psalms:

His divinity—Psa. 45:6; Heb. 1:8
His incarnation—Psa. 8:4; Heb. 2:6
His humanity—Psa. 8:4; Heb. 2:6
His human living—Psa. 16:1-8
His death—Psa. 22:1-21
His resurrection—Psa. 2:7; 16:10; 22:22; Heb. 2:12; Acts 2:25-32; 13:35-37
His ascension—Psa. 68:18; Eph. 4:8
His exaltation—Psa. 80:17; 110:1
His crowning—Psa. 8:5; Heb. 2:9
His enthronement—Psa. 2:6
His dominion, kingship, and authority—Psa. 2:8; 8:6; 47; 72; 89; 110
His priesthood—Psa. 110:4
His fighting—Psa. 110:5-6; 45:3-5
His victory—Psa. 110:5-6
His indwelling—Psa. 22:22
His shepherding—Psa. 23
The stone for the building—Psa. 118:22
His coming—Psa. 72; 96; 110
His reigning—Psa. 93—101

The main psalms concerning Christ: Psa. 2, 8, 16, 22, 23, 24, 45, 68, 80, 91, 110, 118
These are just the main aspects; there are many details which could be filled in. It is clear that through the Psalms we can know Christ much better than through the New Testament."

Drake

11-18-2016 10:05 AM

ZNPaaneah

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Znp, sometimes the same writer expressed human concept and sometimes divine.
Happens all the time even here.

My question is does this happen in every book of the Bible? Are you saying that every writer of every book of the Bible is expressing human concepts sometimes and sometimes divine concepts?

If your answer is yes then how can you claim that the Bible is the word of God?

If your answer is no, then it goes back to your original response concerning David, WL's teaching is not typical of all writers but was specific to Psalms.

11-18-2016 09:27 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

I'll try to recap my argument first, then address Drake.

Jesus said, "David was speaking by the Spirit" (Matt 22:43). Where does Jesus indicate the opposite, that David was not speaking by the Spirit? Just speaking according to his concepts?

Peter said, "David was a prophet and knew of the promise of God, and predicted the coming Seed who'd fulfill the word" (Acts 2:30,31). Where does Peter indicate David was merely speaking vain human considerations?

I believe our default interpretive mode should follow the pattern set by the NT. Of course this doesn't mean that every word of Psalms, (or Isaiah, or Job) indicates some detail of Jesus Christ, but we should be attuned for the Holy Spirit to reveal Him to us.

"The Holy Spirit will glorify Me by disclosing Me to you" (John 16:13,14)

"I pray that the Lord would give to you a spirit of wisdom and revelation". (Eph 1:17).

When we study the word and the Holy Spirit reveals "this Jesus" (Acts 2:32); we "see Jesus" (Heb 2:12), then we can go deeper into the Father's will. The Son goes before, and beckons to follow. These poetic texts reveal Jesus. The Spirit reveals Jesus, and Jesus reveals the Father.

Now, the problem with poetic texts is that one person may see one thing and another sees another. So when the psalm says three times, "Get behind me, you workers of evil" (Psa 6:8; 119:115; 139:19), and we remember that Jesus said the same thing three times in the gospel (Matt 4:10; 7:23; 16:23), are we seeing Jesus? Yes and no. Yes if the psalm helps us see Jesus the gospel portrays; but no in that we can't prove that this verse in Matthew fulfils the prophetic utterance of the psalmist.

Or, reading in Psalm 3: "I laid me down and slept/I awaked, for the LORD sustained me"; is that presaging "I have the power to lay my life down, and the power to take it up again"? Perhaps. It certainly can cause us to see in greater depth the power that raised Jesus from the grave. In Psalm 3 David was on the run, hiding in a cave - his son Absalom had rebelled, and violent men, under Absalom's captains' orders, were seeking his life. Men who had once been David's own guards. But David trusted, and slept, willing to face death, knowing that God could bring him back out of darkness. Is this not indicative of the Son of David? Is this not a faith that inspires, empowers?

Perhaps; that's of course something of a subjective, personal, 'spiritual' encounter with the text. But did Lee ever consider this? Or was David in Psalm 3 summarily dismissed as a vain sinner? A man of "complex sentiments", occasionally having a "squirrel!" moment but usually only capable of looking at himself. Where was Jesus' man who was in spirit, Peter's future-seeing prophet? Nowhere to be found. Not even considered, from what I could see.

So we're given a crazy, disjointed text. . . look at Psalm 34:20 - "Not one of His bones will be broken", quoted by John 19:36. The rest of the psalm, according to Lee, is just fallen human concepts. Sin has thoroughly addled David from seeing or recognizing God's Christ, yet in the middle of his selfish rant David has a "eureka" vison of a detail of the coming Messiah, then promptly goes back to his vain musings.

What kind of interpretation is that? It's like spiritual whiplash: vain, revelatory, vain. I think a third-grader might be impressed by such scattershot characterizations. I'm not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

How would you know what consideration Brother Lee had before he spoke those messages on Psalms? He had a very long ministry and would have had decades of consideration by the time he spoke the messages on Psalms. You are basing your objection on something you have no way of knowing.

Lee had decades of considerations, but all he told us was that David was a sinner and therefore was disqualified in pleasing God or fulfilling His will. No mention of the possibility if David was speaking prophetically, or was in spirit. Just, He was a sinner. Not qualified.

But Peter had already addressed that issue, in Acts 2, and gone deeper, into the spirit. Lee wouldn't. Why? He wouldn't say. "David was a sinner". So what are we to assume? That Lee had years of consideration, somehow got something deep and insightful, causing him to reject this word, and moved on to revelatory texts? He didn't want to waste our time by giving us the benefit of his considerations? What are we to think?

So I tell you what I think: he had meetings to give, books to publish, and a church empire to build and run. Move along folks, move along; nothing to see here. No consideration, no musing upon the word both day and night, no insight, no life. No revelation of Jesus Christ.

Maybe Lee had too many years of consideration. His mind was made up, and wouldn't see Jesus if He reached up out of the page and waved His hand in his face.

11-18-2016 07:00 AM

Drake

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

How would you know what consideration Brother Lee had before he spoke those messages on Psalms? He had a very long ministry and would have had decades of oonsideration by the time he spoke the messages on Psalms. You are basing your objection on something you have no way of knowing.

So you agree, like Brother Lee, that the book of Psalms contains both natural and divine concepts. His considerations are not apparent to you so you assume it's hasty judgment on his part. Your argument is flawed because you cannot possibly how much consideration went into his teaching on this. For all you know he thought about this since 1925 until 1993 when he spoke these messages. That would be 60+ years... well just to be safe let's assume a half century of opportunity to consider and develop his point of view.

By that measure, who is being hasty?

11-18-2016 05:11 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Znp, sometimes the same writer expressed human concept and sometimes divine.
Happens all the time even here.

I often overgeneralize but that's how I make sense of things. Cautious readers may prune my enthusiasms.

Here's what I see:

1. When the NT apostle held forth on the word, and had an opportunity to pan the psalmist for being low and natural, he didn't. Instead he said that the psalmist was not speaking for himself, but was speaking for the Christ.

Thus, "You will not let my flesh see corruption" was not a human concept of a sinner but was instead an indication of Jesus Christ's glories to come. I take this as the default interpretive pattern, until the NT scripture or Christian tradition (i.e. the Fathers) offers me a compelling reason to look differently.

2. I don't see the NT apostle saying, "Only these specified portions which we quote here are revelatory. Avoid other sections, which are not." Instead, the brief, scattered, but frequent (40+, I believe) references perhaps suggest that they haven't exhausted the Christ to be seen in God's word, and invite the readers or hearers to "examine the scriptures daily and see if these things are so". Cf Acts 17:11.

3. So if the psalmist says something like, "You rescued me because you delighted in me", that may perhaps speak to the Son being rescued by the Father, i.e. "He (the Son) trusted in Him (the Father); let Him save Him now."

OR, it may in fact be vain concepts of the sinner. But why did Lee pick option #2? Why didn't Lee say, "This could be speaking of the coming Messiah, but I don't think so because of reasons A), B), and C)."?

No, he just dismissed scripture with a wave of the hand: "Natural". So my response was, Who's being natural here, and burdened with fallen human concepts - the Bible expositor, or the Bible writer? Until I see compelling reasons to pick the expositor, I'm pre-disposed with the word of God, as presenting me with something potentially indicative of Christ. But Lee essentially dismissed the word of God, out of hand.

I keep coming back to NT precedent because I'm not aware of the NT apostles holding forth on the word this way: "Vain, fallen, natural". So what gave Witness Lee such license?

And I also showed why I suspect that this took place: others were getting there, before him, and "enjoying Christ" and threatening his position as sole mediator of God's revelation. So he shut it down.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

On what scriptural basis do you assert that there is nothing natural in any Psalm?

I never said there's nothing natural. I said, Let's not assume it's natural without consideration. I don't see Lee considering. He just cast a hasty judgment: "David was a sinner, so it was natural concepts expressed." That's about the extent of his analytical depth. Rubbish.

Peter never said anything like that. Paul never said anything like that. Nor John, nor Peter nor Hebrews that I remember. So where did Lee get his license? How does he treat the scriptural text thusly, en masse, and claim to be closely following the apostles?

11-18-2016 04:39 AM

Drake

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Znp, sometimes the same writer expressed human concept and sometimes divine.

Happens all the time even here.

11-18-2016 04:27 AM

ZNPaaneah

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Aron) "let's leave it at this: there's nothing in the NT reception of the Psalms that indicates that some of them were "fallen", or "natural", or "concepts". No, rather the NT usage indicates that they were perceived as revelatory. There was an invitation here, to be filled in Spirit with the words of Christ. And needless to say, WL spurned this invitation."

On what scriptural basis do you assert that there is nothing natural in any Psalm? You would need to include, at minimum, the same for the books of the law and the prophets. And we know that there is much low natural fallen concepts expressed there.

Low, natural, and fallen, concepts are revealed too, not just Christ. Revelation is not just about Christ.

Does that just apply to the psalms or does this apply to every book in the Bible?

If every single book of the Bible reveals low, natural, fallen concepts then why does WL emphasize this with Psalms?

We need to see that, on the one hand, the book of Psalms was written according to the human concept, and on the other hand, it was written according to the divine concept. If we do not see this, our understanding will be natural, and the Psalms will be understood by us according to the human concept. (Witness Lee, Life Study of Psalms)

The issue is not that fallen natural concepts are revealed in the Psalms, but that according to Witness Lee some of the Psalms are about this.

Psalm 1, however, is according to the natural, human concept. David thought that the one who meditated in the law day and night would prosper in everything. (Witness Lee, Life Study of Psalms)

According to Witness Lee the writer of the Psalm (David) was natural and mistaken.

David's logic in Psalm 37 is very natural. (Witness Lee, Life Study of Psalms)

According to Witness Lee the writer of many of the Psalms (King David) was writing based on natural concepts and using natural logic.

11-18-2016 03:50 AM

Drake

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

11-15-2016 02:18 PM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

I have a personal interest in prophecy, specifically end time. Brother Lee did not cover the books of the Prophets to the extent I would have preferred. I really value his perspective so I wanted more from him on that. Yet, it was not his main burden so I dived into them myself and over the last 10 years researched them extensively reading from many sources. What I now understand is not in the footnotes or the Life-studies though much of it is. Do I now find fault with the minister because he did not include everything I now understand about the prophecies in the RcV footnotes in the books of the Prophets?

That would be a ridiculous expectation.

If I feel strongly about it I could create and publish my own footnotes or write a book. So could you.

Brother Lee spoke thousands of messages on nearly every biblical topic and on some he went deep because it was according to his leading and burden before the Lord. He spoke hundreds about the Psalms alone. Other topics he only scratched the surface and so he asked the saints to research them (such as the significance of the minerals in the New Jerusalem).

The principle here is that every revelation given, all knowledge imparted, each experience we go through is for the building of the Body of Christ. So treat it as such and the Lord will multiply it as grace upon grace and there will we find our reward. If we do not invest wisely what He has imparted to us He may take it away when He returns and we would lose our reward.

May the Lord show you more and more and reward you at His coming.

Drake

Drake,

I addressed this issue in a previous post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

Unfortunately my presentational skills aren't up to the job, but I wanted to put out an idea: Look at the Psalms as a kind of spiritualization of the historical narrative, which spiritualization was picked up and amplified by the NT writers. A classic example is of Melchizedek. A historical character, briefly inserted into the narrative of events. Then the psalmist gives it a kind of mystical spin: "You are a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek." The NT writer says, "Hey! This is Christ!" and then amplifies it.

We don't know how much of David's original work remains, and how much of it was redacted by later generations. But the psalms as spiritual commentaries were clearly accepted and used by the NT writers, and by Jesus Himself. For example, "You are gods" from Psalm 82, quoted by Jesus to the Jewish antagonists. They were gods, to whom the word of God came (John 10:35), but they died like men, because they disobeyed and corrupted the commands (82:7). They fell like every other corrupt ruler. Jesus' use of scripture turned the charge back against the Jews: they'd claimed Jesus blasphemed, but He said that His works showed that He was one with the Father (John 10:25,37,38). So who were they? Corrupt, and due to fall. "You are gods" was merely a prelude to "you will die like men".

Another example that comes to mind is "Deep calls to deep in the roar of your waterfalls; all your waves and breakers have swept over me." from Psalm 42:7. Compare this to Jonah 2:3 "You hurled me into the depths, into the very heart of the seas, and the currents swirled about me; all your waves and breakers swept over me." Somebody appears to be copying, here. How could David the landlubber psalmist seize upon a sea-faring narrative? Because the enemy coming against him like a "flood", like "waters", is a common poetic metaphor. And this is picked up on in the NT: "Just like Jonah was in the heart of the sea, so shall the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth". To go down into the depths of the sea is a metaphor, a spiritual picture, of the descent into Hades.

Or the commonly cited "rock of my salvation" in the Psalms, "which rock was Christ" according to Paul. One could pick out many examples; I know Augustine of Hippo did in his commentaries. Let's leave it at this: there's nothing in the NT reception of the Psalms that indicates that some of them were "fallen", or "natural", or "concepts". No, rather the NT usage indicates that they were perceived as revelatory. There was an invitation here, to be filled in Spirit with the words of Christ. And needless to say, WL spurned this invitation.

I've written several hundred posts on this thread and have only touched maybe 40 of the 150 psalms. And of many other books in the Bible I'm ignorant & thus don't presume to have the complete or last word, and don't expect Lee to have it either. What I do protest, here, is seen in the bolded part at bottom: that Lee's saying the scriptural word is "low, fallen, natural" and thus not revelatory of God's Christ. There's no NT precedent for this reception of scripture. We're not talking about one or two verses here; we're talking about the majority of 150 chapters. Yet these chapters are the most quoted section in the NT. But Lee wasn't interested. He had his "God's economy" and "processed God" to attend.

11-15-2016 02:11 PM

aron

Re: All the words of this life

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

There are possibly many verses Lee did not address in his footnotes where life can be unpacked. Are you aware of any of Lee's writings or teachings that might explain why he ignored Christ in this Psalm?

There's a reason why Lee didn't address Christ in the vast majority of the psalms.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

Today there is widespread agreement that the Psalms prefigured the coming Christ. Psalm 2, Psalm 8, Psalm 16, Psalm 22, Psalm 91, Psalm 110 are heavily quoted in the New Testament, for example.

But when Paul twice (Col 3:16, Eph 5:19) urged the saints to let the word of Christ dwell in them richly as they sang psalms, singing praise to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, do you think he was thinking of limiting them to those few? I don't get any indication of that. What about all the other chapters, which Lee passed over without mention, other than that they are "natural"? Do you think Paul had the same judgment, the same caveat? I don't get that impression.

Do you think, when the Psalmist wrote "In the midst of the assembly I will sing hymns of praise to you", that this applies only when we sing Lee's "revelation of Christ" psalms? That Christ will not/cannot join us if we sing the "natural concept" psalms? Child, please.

I personally think the psalms are much deeper and more revelatory of Christ than Lee realized. It is not that the Psalms are lacking the revelation of Christ, but that Lee was lacking the revelation of Christ. Which brings the next question: why? How could a man who teased images of Christ from the badger skins and silver sockets on the ark of the covenant, and from the windows on Noah's ark, not see Christ there in so many of the Psalms?

I think it is two-fold. First, he had a bias against the "law" by Paul's expositions (see Galatians 2, Romans 7, etc). So when the psalmist expressed a love for the law, Lee recoiled instinctively. The voices of Paul the apostle and Martin Luther the expositor shouted "No!!!" within him. This prevented him from seeking, or seeing, any Christ there.

Secondly, the man clearly had control issues. When the saints actually began to take the apostle Paul at his word and sing the Psalms, "As the hart panteth after the water brooks/so panteth my soul after Thee, O God", then Lee got worried because they were enjoying the Word outside his ministry and this to him was most dangerous. Lee wanted to be the sole mediator of man's revelatory experience in the Word of God. So Lee told the fellowships in the Lord's Recovery to stop singing the Psalms, because they were too low. I have heard this verbally from several people who were there.

He didn't, of course, say "Stop singing the Psalms"; he said, "It would be better if you sang verses from Ephesians than from Psalms". Then he imitated in a mocking way the saints as they praised God using the words of the psalmist. His "shaming" actions were enough to discourage the saints.

So Witness Lee was willing to directly contravene Paul's encouragement, if Paul's encouragement led to a loss of his (Lee's) control. The Spirit was starting to move among the assemblies, and it was moving away from Lee's dominion, and this probably threatened him. Loss of control could not be tolerated. So he stopped it.

And the "spirit of wisdom and revelation" which Paul asked for in Ephesians 1:17 got frustrated. The psalms then were declared to be the "natural concepts of men", versus revelatory pictures of the persecuted, praying, believing, hoping, trusting, declaring, thirsty, hungry, stricken, suffering, fighting, struggling Jesus the Nazarene. "Oh, that's just David (or Asaph, or Lemuel, etc) trying to be good." No, that is Jesus fulfilling the destiny of humankind. That is none other than the "Savior of the world" (1 John 4:14) revealed in detail far beyond Lee's capacity to see.

Lee didn't want to lose control. So he panned the scripture, stridently and with alacrity.

11-13-2016 12:53 PM

Drake

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Thanks untohim.

Sorry for my error.

Note to aron still applicable based on his entries.

Drake

11-13-2016 10:28 AM

Drake

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

NOTE FROM MODERATOR:

The quote attributed to aron was actually from Evangelical:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I would say the old testament footnotes are incomplete, many verses have no commentary for them or the commentary is very bland. It would be interesting to investigate why Lee did not think these verses could be attributed to Christ. I don't know if that is possible by reading his books, without asking him himself.

No shame to our fine feathered friend Drake - when so many posts are made over such a short period of time it can be easy to attribute a post to the wrong person.
***However, this is one good reason to use the "Quote" feature provided by the forum system. ***

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Aron) "I would say the old testament footnotes are incomplete, many verses have no commentary for them or the commentary is very bland. It would be interesting to investigate why Lee did not think these verses could be attributed to Christ. I don't know if that is possible by reading his books, without asking him himself."

Aron,

I think it is great that you see Christ in all the Psalms. I mean it. I personally do not believe every verse of every Psalm, prophecy, or detail of the law refer to Christ specifically. Luke 24:44 indicates that the Old Testament was about Christ and some verses specifically referred to Him and He told His disciples which ones those were. Nevertheless, I am delighted when someone sees Christ where I never would have. Happens all the time.

I have a personal interest in prophecy, specifically end time. Brother Lee did not cover the books of the Prophets to the extent I would have preferred. I really value his perspective so I wanted more from him on that. Yet, it was not his main burden so I dived into them myself and over the last 10 years researched them extensively reading from many sources. What I now understand is not in the footnotes or the Life-studies though much of it is. Do I now find fault with the minister because he did not include everything I now understand about the prophecies in the RcV footnotes in the books of the Prophets?

That would be a ridiculous expectation.

If I feel strongly about it I could create and publish my own footnotes or write a book. So could you.

Brother Lee spoke thousands of messages on nearly every biblical topic and on some he went deep because it was according to his leading and burden before the Lord. He spoke hundreds about the Psalms alone. Other topics he only scratched the surface and so he asked the saints to research them (such as the significance of the minerals in the New Jerusalem).

The principle here is that every revelation given, all knowledge imparted, each experience we go through is for the building of the Body of Christ. So treat it as such and the Lord will multiply it as grace upon grace and there will we find our reward. If we do not invest wisely what He has imparted to us He may take it away when He returns and we would lose our reward.

May the Lord show you more and more and reward you at His coming.

Drake

11-13-2016 06:42 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

the writer of Hebrews profusely quoted the psalms, then said, "We see Jesus" in 2:9. By faith, we see Jesus. Not complicated..

This probably deserves an addendum. Hebrews 2:9 says, We see Jesus made a little inferior to the angels, through the suffering and death. This Suffering and Obedient Man on Earth, fully in accord with the Will of the Father in Heaven, is played out in the Psalms.

And, We see Jesus crowned with glory and honor. This also is seen, notably in Psalm 2 but referenced often in poetic text. In fact, the Obedient Son on Earth, suffering righteously on behalf of the unrighteous, is merely the earthly representation of the Eternal King. Psalm 1 and Psalm 2 show two different views, or modes. But the Person was the same. The people who said, "Isn't this Jesus?? Don't we know His mother, sisters and brothers??" didn't realize Who this was. But the demons did, and trembled. As did, notably, the angels in heaven. The Roman centurion realized this in detail, and after explaining his understanding, told Jesus, "Just speak a word and my servant will be healed." Jesus marveled at not only his faith but his understanding.

And Jesus, to validate Himself while yet on earth, said, "If you don't believe in Me, believe in the works which I do." That He was the proto-typical, prophesied Righteous Man was proved unequivocally by actions: the blind who saw, the deaf who heard, the dead who were raised. This Man was none other than the long-sought-for Messiah. His resurrection, ascension and enthronement in eternal glory merely continued the process which began with His impeccably pure behavior on earth, and the healing power which flowed therefrom. (Thus, death wasn't failure and shame, but liberation for all from the pangs of death.) When Jesus referenced "the works" that He did, it echoed Psalm 1's "Whatever He does will prosper". . . Jesus' word had power on earth because it was fully in accord with the Father's speaking in Heaven. Jesus was the (singular) man with a pure heart, who was not just a hearer but a doer of the word (i.e. He was the Incarnate Word).

"He (the Son, on earth) trusted Him (the Father, in Heaven); let Him save Him now." (Matt 27:42,43; cf Psa 22:8) The whole of the Psalms plays out this simple narrative. When you see this, "He rescued Me because He delighted in Me" of Psalm 18:9 becomes clear: we see Jesus, a little inferior temporarily to the angels, then raised (rescued) by the Father and given glory. "God has now made Him both Lord and Christ". It's thematically consistent with the repeated NT narrative, and is applicable through the OT source scriptural text (inc Psalms) without too much trouble at all.

Witness Lee noted the earthly suffering and eternal glory of Jesus in his footnote to Hebrews 2:9, but failed to connect it to the Psalms. Yet that epistle's copious citation of psalms previous to the verse could have clued him.

11-13-2016 05:49 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Please quote which verses in Psalm 1 shows us grace, then.

And which verses in Psalm 119 shows us vanity.

No, you mis-read me. What I meant was, Psalm 1 shows us Jesus. The tree planted by the water, whose leaf never withers, that is Jesus. See Revelation 22:2 for confirmation: the tree by the river, whose fruit bears in season ("whatever he does will prosper", Psa 1:3), whose leaves heal the nation. This Blessed Man in Psalm 1 becomes the Enthroned King in Psalm 2. For confirmation see Deuteronomy 17:14-20.

This theme continues strongly through the whole 150 chapters of Psalms. Of course we could nit-pick; Psalm 51 comes to mind, but even Psalm 51 at the end, echoes Jesus to Peter, "You will turn, and strengthen the brothers".

The "I will obey your word" of Psalm 119:17 is Jesus to the Father. "He was obedient to the death, even the death of the slave". And so on. It's not that complicated. Brother Lee made it complicated.

Brother Lee's euphemism for the Psalms was "complex". It's not complex; it's Jesus. At His core, He was the Simple, or Pure Man. Never deviated. Always obeyed. Grace is we the disobedient goats, seeing the Obedient Lamb, and by this faith we're saved. The righteousness of Jesus is imputed to us. "By grace you have been saved, and that through faith" That's why the writer of Hebrews profusely quoted the psalms, I think 8 citations to start off, then said, "We see Jesus" in 2:9. By faith, we see Jesus, and by faith we're saved. Not complicated.

My objection was that brother Lee didn't want to see Jesus. He either saw the OT psalmist vainly trying to please God, or the NT believer enjoying grace. But there's a gaping hole in the middle of his sermon. Brother Lee going through Psalms was like a bull-dozer going through a flower garden: the goal was achieved, and he got to the other side, but it didn't look good when he was done.

11-12-2016 06:29 PM

Evangelical

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

Psalm 119 shows us grace, as the NT believer enjoys Christ as God's law. Yet Psalm 1 shows us vanity as the psalmist tries vainly to keep God's law. But why isn't it Psalm 1 showing grace, and Psalm 119 showing vanity? Because Witness Lee says so.

What tripe. What rubbish.

Please quote which verses in Psalm 1 shows us grace, then.

And which verses in Psalm 119 shows us vanity.

11-12-2016 06:19 PM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freedom

WL’s basis for criticizing Psalm 1 seems to be based upon the fact that David failed. Yet Jesus taught that taught us that downplaying the law is reason to be called least in the kingdom of the heavens, so WL’s logic doesn’t check out as far as I'm concerned.

11-12-2016 06:15 PM

Evangelical

Re: All the words of this life

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

I think a better question on this forum would be, did Witness Lee mean that 90% of the Psalms were Satan's words? Look at how he categorizes them: natural, fallen, well-intentioned but ignorant human concepts.

When Peter told Jesus "Not so, Lord; this will never happen to You!!" he was speaking in his natural, ignorant human concept. This ignominy would never happen to Jesus! Right? Simon, aka "The Rock" Peter, would never allow it! "Not so, Lord!"

Peter's speaking was, correctly we believe, characterized by Jesus as "Satan's speaking". So my question becomes, are there degrees of well-intentioned but ignorant human concepts on display in the Bible, some of which are Satan insinuating himself into the conversation, and some not? If Psalms are merely ignorant good intentions but not "revelatory of Christ", then what are they?

When Job's wife advised him to "curse God and die" (2:9) after he was brutally afflicted, this was arguably a natural concept, via God's enemy Satan. Satan advises, at some point in the process you can give up with the praise and worship thingy, and get down to brass tacks, and tell God off. But no, "I will praise God with my dying breath" (Psa 146:2 NLT). And also like Peter: "Lord, I forgave my brother six times. Now can I bash him on the noggin as he so rightly deserves?" Again, lack of awareness of God's mercy leads to behaviors controlled by the fallen flesh. Satan has now usurped. Again and again in the NT the well-intentioned disciples crowded round, and displayed God's enemy.

But if Paul called Psalms the Words of Christ, where's the corollary calling them Words of Satan (Col 3:16)? How can Lee define scriptural text thus and say that he's closely following the apostles? Where's the precedent for this?

There is a saying that says God goes to church and so does Satan, or wherever God is Satan is there too watching. The Bible says tares and wheat live and grow together. Finding the words of God and the words of Satan in the same Psalm should not surprise us. In fact when Jesus was tempted Satan was quoting the words of God to Christ. I think fallen man, or natural man, can be considered Satan in a certain sense, but not in the same sense as Satan's literal speaking as with Christ's temptation. But actually it doesn't really matter if it is Satan speaking through natural man or Satan speaking directly, it is still Satan. We have this idea that Satan is about child sacrifice and witchcraft and all these things but actually Satan is the temptation of the natural man - just as Satan used Eve's natural desires to cause her to disobey.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

But he didn't refer to Christ at all. How can we say this RecV translation with footnotes is in any way definitive if it's so glaringly deficient?

Paul made the point that the law of itself gave nobody righteousness (Rom 3:20). But why not consider whether "I will obey Your word" in the Psalm (e.g. 119:17) might possibly reference the coming Righteous One? How many times in the gospel text does Jesus reference obedience to the Father's will? No, says Lee, that psalm is just Satan distracting and deceiving the fallen mankind. At best, at very best, I think that's a shallow and perfunctory reading of the text; to me, Lee evinced no interest whatever in finding nor unpacking "life". Jesus said, "Seek and ye shall find"; I see no evidence of seeking with Lee. How did he then claim to be a teacher, much less holding God's supposedly singular oracle?

11-12-2016 05:06 PM

Freedom

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

You are perplexed because you have some elevated or misplaced regard for the law as compared to God's plan as revealed in the New Testament. Furthermore, the New Testament reveals how others also were perplexed by the same and it's tragic consequences.

I don’t speak for aron, but as far as I’m concerned, he is spot on:

Matt 5:17-20
“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew Henry commentary:
5:17-20 Let none suppose that Christ allows his people to trifle with any commands of God's holy law. No sinner partakes of Christ's justifying righteousness, till he repents of his evil deeds. The mercy revealed in the gospel leads the believer to still deeper self-abhorrence. The law is the Christian's rule of duty, and he delights therein. If a man, pretending to be Christ's disciple, encourages himself in any allowed disobedience to the holy law of God, or teaches others to do the same, whatever his station or reputation among men may be, he can be no true disciple. Christ's righteousness, imputed to us by faith alone, is needed by every one that enters the kingdom of grace or of glory; but the new creation of the heart to holiness, produces a thorough change in a man's temper and conduct.

WL’s basis for criticizing Psalm 1 seems to be based upon the fact that David failed. Yet Jesus taught that taught us that downplaying the law is reason to be called least in the kingdom of the heavens, so WL’s logic doesn’t check out as far as I'm concerned.

11-12-2016 04:34 PM

Drake

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

So Psalm 119 delights in God's law because it is God's out-breathed word, but Psalm 1 delights in the law as vanity? How about a simple and consistent method, given clearly in the NT?

Aron,

You are perplexed because you have some elevated or misplaced regard for the law as compared to God's plan as revealed in the New Testament. Furthermore, the New Testament reveals how others also were perplexed by the same and it's tragic consequences.

The New Testament clarifies the purpose of the law was to come in along side fallen man to cause sin to abound (Romans 5:20). It also served as a child conductor to lead Israel to Christ. Once Christ came there is no need for a child conductor for believers now possess the way, truth, and the life with His actual presence.

Therefore, the law alongside Christ leads the children of Israel to Christ. The law in a standalone position causes sin to abound. The Old Testament writers did not have the benefit of looking back as we do so they, according to their limited view, sometimes spoke highly of the merits of the law on its own and in so doing did not realize that it condemed them. When a psalmist had God's view in mind, that is Christ, then the law functions in its right position.

When the Lord Jesus began His earthly ministry a conflict began with those who had a misplaced appreciation of the law. Ultimately those who appreciated the law broke the law when they murdered Him and His followers.

Therefore what you view as inconsistencies are merely Brother Lee drawing contrasts between those verses that misapply the law that leads to sin and death and those verses that bring the law alongside to lead people to Christ and to life.

Drake

11-12-2016 03:32 PM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

How about a couple of rules, here:

1. When we interpret scripture, let's do it consistently with NT reception patterns, and not go free-lancing, hm?

2. Once you pick a method of understanding scripture, keep it. Not either seeing "Christ" or "vanity" according to today's whims?

Witness Lee: Psalm 119, Verses 17 and 18 say, "Deal bountifully with Your servant that I may live/And keep Your word./Open my eyes that I may behold/Wondrous things out of Your law." This indicates that the psalmist considered God's law to be His word. This is indicated also by what the psalmist says in verses 28 and 29: "My soul melts because of grief;/Strengthen me according to Your word./Remove from me the way of falsehood,/And graciously grant me Your law." These verses prove that the psalmist thought of God's law as His living and loving word breathed out of God's mouth.

I guess this is good, right? The psalmist has a good relationship, not vain, with the law? Now look at the discussion of Psalm 1.

Witness Lee: The first psalm is concerning the law. David did not know the real function of the law. He likened himself, as one who delighted in the law, to a tree growing beside streams of water and flourishing all the time (v. 3). But after Psalm 1, there is Psalm 2 concerning Christ. Then there is Psalm 3. The heading of Psalm 3 says, "A Psalm of David, when he fled from Absalom his son." The one who enjoyed the law as the streams of water by which he grew became a kind of exile due to the rebellion of his son. This happened to David because of his murder of Uriah and his taking of Uriah's wife (2 Sam. 12:10-12). The one who enjoyed the law so much in Psalm 1 became an intentional murderer. Does this show that the law works? The law does work, but not in David's way. The law works to expose us. The law exposed David to the uttermost as one who conspired to kill Uriah and rob Uriah of his wife. Does the law work or not? We have to say that the law works, not according to David's concept in Psalm 1, but according to the apostle Paul's teaching in the New Testament. Paul pointed out that the law was something added to the central line of the divine revelation to expose man's sinful nature and wicked deeds (Rom. 3:20b; 5:20a). We need this view of the law in order to understand the Psalms according to the divine concept in the New Testament. We are not in the Old Testament as David was, but we are in the New Testament.

So Psalm 119 delights in God's law because it is God's out-breathed word, but Psalm 1 delights in the law as vanity? How about a simple and consistent method, given clearly in the NT? How about, David declared reality per God's word (in the Psalms), which reality was not actualized fully in experience by David himself (a sinner) but by David's promised seed? You know, the guy named Jesus, "whom God has now made Lord and Christ" (Acts 2:36) How is that so hard?

"But what does it say? 'The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart'-- that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation." (Romans 10:8-10).

We believe into and confess Jesus as both Lord and Christ. This is our righteousness, our faith, our confession. When we consider Psalm 1's righteous man, whose leaf never withers, I can see Jesus. Why was this an unthinkable concept for Lee? Psalm 1, Psalm 19, Psalm 119, all point to Jesus Christ as the One on earth who knew God the Father in heaven fully by embracing God's word(or, law/testimony/statutes). John even calls Jesus the incarnate Word. Jesus' delight in the law of the LORD in Psalm 1 is therefore not vain. So why are Psalm 1, 3, 4, 5, 6, etc etc "vain concepts"? I mean, if the psalmist had said, "I delight in evil", okay. But where's the opening for Lee's gambit, here?

11-12-2016 02:59 PM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

aron,

You agree with Brother Lee but you are apparently unaware of what he actually taught. Case in point:

"Psalm 119 is a Psalm of 176 verses describing Christ, who is the reality of the law, the commandments, the ordinances, the statutes, the precepts, and the judgments. "

RCV Psalm 119 footnote 1 (1).

Drake

Don't have a RecV in front of me but I'd say that Brother Lee gave us his generic "Christ is everything" answer. What does it say about obedience in verse 17; and if it actually does affirm Christs' earthly obedience to the heavenly Father's will, then why did Lee also pan obedience and righteousness elsewhere in the Psalms?

Lee: "Psalm 119 is a psalm of one hundred seventy-six verses describing Christ, who is the reality of the law, the commandments, the ordinances, the statutes, the precepts, and the judgments. In total, He is the Word of God. The words of Psalm 119 are the written words of God, but Christ is the living Word of God. The written words are the letters, but the living Word is the Spirit, who is the reality of the letters.

Now we can see not only what the law is but also who the law is. Who is the law? The law is the person of Christ, and the person of Christ is the Spirit. The Spirit is the reality of whatever God is. Hence, as the Spirit Christ is the reality of the law. Eventually, this law, this person, consummates in the way (John 14:6). When we have Him, we have not only love and light but also the way. This is Christ being the reality of the law as the testimony and the word of God."

So then why is Psalm 1 held to be vain, if there the psalmist delights in the law of the LORD? I mean, please be consistent if you are going to interpret the word like this. Lee is nearly schizophrenic. Some places is "NT enjoyment", some places "Christ", some places "vanity".

If in Psalm 119 the law is "Christ", why isn't Psalm 1 the NT believer "enjoying Christ" or some such? Why is Psalm 1 vain and natural? If Christ is the law, and Christ the law's embodiment is now the Spirit/reality, then why isn't Psalm 1, and others like it, an analog to the NT "keep the One Spirit" or something along those lines?

How about a couple of rules, here:

1. When we interpret scripture, let's do it consistently with NT reception patterns, and not go free-lancing, hm?

2. Once you pick a method of understanding scripture, keep it. Not either seeing "Christ" or "vanity" according to today's whims?

11-12-2016 01:45 PM

Drake

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Aron) "... why not consider whether "I will obey Your word" in the Psalm (e.g. 119:17) might possibly reference the coming Righteous One?"

"But he didn't refer to Christ at all. How can we say this RecV translation with footnotes is in any way definitive if it's so glaringly deficient?"

aron,

You agree with Brother Lee but you are apparently unaware of what he actually taught. Case in point:

"Psalm 119 is a Psalm of 176 verses describing Christ, who is the reality of the law, the commandments, the ordinances, the statutes, the precepts, and the judgments. "

RCV Psalm 119 footnote 1 (1).

Drake

11-12-2016 10:00 AM

aron

Re: All the words of this life

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Do you mean you can live by Satan's words?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Perhaps Lee was making a point in case people mistakenly thought that God rewarded them according to their own righteousness. But he could have said this refers to Christ and not us.

11-11-2016 09:15 PM

Evangelical

Re: All the words of this life

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Evangelical, methinks you needa get outa your mind, and turn to your spirit!

Do you mean you can live by Satan's words?

11-11-2016 04:50 PM

Ohio

Re: All the words of this life

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

It's still God's word, but its' not from God's mouth, so we cannot live by it.

Evangelical, methinks you needa get outa your mind, and turn to your spirit!

11-11-2016 04:21 PM

Evangelical

Re: All the words of this life

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

Thanks you for the charity of your reply. It's possible that I have been too strong in my condemnation (I get like that often). Anyway I found Lee's treatment to be perfunctory and unsatisfactory.

I have found that at times Lee's footnotes claim things which are not written there (hard to justify from the text), and other times denies things which clearly are.

Before joining "the Recovery" my understanding of Psalm 18 was that it did refer to Christ. That has not changed actually. The footnote by Lee did not raise alarm bells with me because I thought the statement is true - if the verse was speaking about David, or me or you, then it is correct to say we cannot appeal to our own righteousness. I never saw his footnote to be contradictory to the idea that we could "find Christ" in any Bible verse. The bible portrays Christ but the bible can also portray ourselves. Sometimes we see Christ in the Bible and other times we see ourselves.

11-11-2016 02:11 PM

aron

Re: All the words of this life

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I can see it could refer to Christ.
But he could have said this refers to Christ and not us.

Thanks you for the charity of your reply. It's possible that I have been too strong in my condemnation (I get like that often). Anyway I found Lee's treatment to be perfunctory and unsatisfactory.

11-11-2016 01:42 PM

Evangelical

Re: The NT reception of the Psalms

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

I opened the Bible and started reading in bed, after working overtime and then traveling to night school, where God arranged for us both to take a Circuits I class in Engineering. I crashed in bed, and literally was reading only minutes. I don't even remember where or what I was reading. I was not repenting. I was not praying. I was not confessing my many sins. I was laying down, not kneeling.

I will admit that my new friend from work also was recently saved. His Catholic wife rejected the gospel, and wanted out, thus creating a fiery trial in his heart. He also went 30 miles out of his way to give me a ride home because my car had died. He was excited about Jesus, and "faith comes by hearing." His gospel did not give me any "how to" instructions about salvation, rather it was a combination of Gospel stories about Jesus that he was reading, and end times events from Hal Lindsay's book that was popular at the time.

I will believe your story and think you were saved in this way because that is how the sovereign God chose to save you. People have been saved by various unique and sometimes even strange ways, seemingly outside the "pattern" of scripture that so many Christians demand (not referring to you, God saving through reading the Bible is fairly orthodox). Many Christians might say that the simple calling on the Lord 3 times as done in the Recovery is "too easy" and not the "right way" to be saved.

Yet in this case I do not think it was the object that God used to save you that gave you life but was the instrument through which you received
life.

I think doctrinally the statement that we can find life only in Christ remains true. All other means must be ways through which we receive the life, and not the source of the life itself.

No doubt if I go to a Catholic forum and say the Virgin Mary statues cannot save anyone, I will get countless examples of how the Virgin Mary has somehow saved or healed them. I know of Christians who treat the Bible in the same way, in a superstitious way and attribute life to something which God never said or meant to contain life (not talking about yourself at all here, just making the statement).

11-11-2016 01:32 PM

Evangelical

Re: All the words of this life

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

It's still God's word, but its' not from God's mouth, so we cannot live by it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

Suppose a sinner utters a prophetic word, "He rescued me because He delighted in me". Lee said, "No, Jehovah didn't delight in the sinner". But my question all along has been, why didn't Lee consider Christ? Lee says, "David considered God's approval, and this is a wrong concept" (Psa 18:20 footnote), because salvation is of God's mercy and grace etc.

Only the 2nd and 49th verses of Psalm 18 are quoted in the New Testament. Maybe that is why he does not consider Christ. But I can see it could refer to Christ.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

But Lee apparently never considered the Obedient Lamb of God. Yet the NT reception of the psalms repeatedly invited this. The psalmist declares, yet the declaration falls not to him, a sinner but on the Chosen Seed of the prophet (David, Acts 2:30), per God's promise. Why is this concept so fantastic, so amazing as to be beyond any consideration? Why do you think the crowds kept singing hosanna to the Son of David as Jesus entered Jerusalem (Matt 21:9; cf 9:27)? They knew Who was coming.

The Obedient Lamb of God is our Good Shepherd. When we see a prophetic picture of the law-keeping One it is not us the redeemed sinners, nor David (also a sinner), but God's Christ, who as a perfect Man lives by His every word (Matt 4:4). Why is this so seeming strange? Even Satan could see Christ in the psalms: "He (the Father) will set His angels around You (the Messiah, the Son) lest You (the Son) should strike Your foot against a stone". So, why couldn't Lee see Christ?

Perhaps Lee was making a point in case people mistakenly thought that God rewarded them according to their own righteousness. But he could have said this refers to Christ and not us.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

Not so fast. Christ tasted death for us. Death could not contain Him. So we are not afraid of death; it is death outside of Christ that is profitless.

So I ask, is this death in, or out of Christ? Why simply assume it is fallen, natural, fleshly? Paul wrote of putting to death (Rom 8:13, Col 3:5), but it was spiritual warfare, not flesh and blood (Eph 6:12). Why not accept Paul's invitation? Why is scripture read figuratively (when convenient), but then literally (when not convenient)?

Tell me this: was David a bad boy when he threw the stone against Goliath, or a type of the coming Christ? I say the latter. There's opportunity to see spiritual types here. Why categorically dismiss it?

Lee with his post-protestant hermeneutic said he extracted life from the Bible, but I've shown that he never considered Christ. So he failed. There is no life without Christ. And there's no life in his footnote in Psalm 18:20. Just fallen men's concepts.

The NT clearly showed the Father's deep delight in the Son. But the psalmist spoke of God's delight (Psa 18:19) and Lee simply said, "Nope." What kind of exposition is this? "He (the Father) rescued Me (the Son) because He delighted in Me". Didn't Peter use this kind of word in Acts 2, to show the relationship of the Father to the Son, and to declare that our faith in this Approved, Resurrected and Glorified Son now opened the door to salvation for all? Why close the door so quickly, so summarily?

11-11-2016 09:26 AM

aron

Re: The NT reception of the Psalms

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

I opened the Bible and started reading in bed,

Jesus said, "The Spirit will reveal Me (Jesus) to you (the disciple)." (John 16:13). At that moment the Spirit came and breathed life into you. By faith you saw Jesus, and you lived.

All this is basic Christian understanding. The Spirit conveys a revelation of Christ as life to us from the word of scripture. No one in the LC would protest this, either. What I do protest, however, is a self-styled apostle like Lee coming along, and saying which scripture you can get "life" from, and which is "vain". When you deconstruct his teaching, it all seems arbitrary, like on that particular day he was in an uncharitable mood and tough for you.

Suppose today we're going over Psalm 34, and Lee's not in the mood to see Christ, apart from what's required by NT reception ("not one of His bones is broken"), so too bad; it's all vanity, he says. Just David running around making noise, full of himself.

What nonsense.

Please understand I'm not saying that we HAVE to see Christ in Psalm 34, or elsewhere, outside explicit NT citation. I protest Lee saying we CANNOT see Christ. No. I protest. He has no right to do this. He's refusing to enter, and refusing to let anyone else enter in.

The NT invites us: "We see Jesus", says the writer (Heb 2:9), after profusely quoting the psalms. I find nothing other than perversity in Lee's categorical denial. (Obviously we're not limited to psalms; Isaiah's quite extensive, etc. But this thread was on the psalms).

11-11-2016 07:13 AM

aron

Re: All the words of this life

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Answer me this. Is this verse a "word from the mouth of God"?:

Matthew 4:9 ""All this I will give you," he said, "if you will bow down and worship me.""

No. It is from the mouth of Satan. .

Correct. From Satan. I apologize for overgeneralizing. I like generalities because it makes good copy, but "every word that proceeds from the mouth of God" needs qualifier, pertaining to scripture.

But let's go deeper, shall we? Suppose Satan quotes God. Does that then make the word null? No, of course not.

Suppose a sinner utters a prophetic word, "He rescued me because He delighted in me". Lee said, "No, Jehovah didn't delight in the sinner". But my question all along has been, why didn't Lee consider Christ? Lee says, "David considered God's approval, and this is a wrong concept" (Psa 18:20 footnote), because salvation is of God's mercy and grace etc.

But Lee apparently never considered the Obedient Lamb of God. Yet the NT reception of the psalms repeatedly invited this. The psalmist declares, yet the declaration falls not to him, a sinner but on the Chosen Seed of the prophet (David, Acts 2:30), per God's promise. Why is this concept so fantastic, so amazing as to be beyond any consideration? Why do you think the crowds kept singing hosanna to the Son of David as Jesus entered Jerusalem (Matt 21:9; cf 9:27)? They knew Who was coming.

The Obedient Lamb of God is our Good Shepherd. When we see a prophetic picture of the law-keeping One it is not us the redeemed sinners, nor David (also a sinner), but God's Christ, who as a perfect Man lives by His every word (Matt 4:4). Why is this so seeming strange? Even Satan could see Christ in the psalms: "He (the Father) will set His angels around You (the Messiah, the Son) lest You (the Son) should strike Your foot against a stone". So, why couldn't Lee see Christ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Is this a word of life or a word of death?:

1 Samuel 15:3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.'

Even though it is a word from God's mouth, it is clearly not a word of life. Suppose you read and pray read 1 Samuel 15:3, what sort of person would it make you? It would not do your spirit much good. .

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

From these simple examples I have proved that
1. Not every word in the Bible is from "God's mouth", however, every word in the Bible is inspired (is there for a purpose, according to God's will).
2. Not every word in the Bible is a matter of life or can give life. Only the Spirit gives life.

Jesus said "The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you--they are full of the Spirit and life.". There is actually no verse in the Bible that says all and every verse in Scripture gives life. I have given two such examples which do not give life - one the voice of Satan, the other God's judgement which brought death.

The Bible is a book of life but that does not me an we do not need to extract the words of life from the Bible, as Lee tried to do with the life studies.

We cannot extract much life from the words of Satan or the words of man, which are recorded in the Bible but are not from the "mouth of God".

I could go on with bible verses that are not from the mouth of God but from fallen man- the false prophets for example,or Job's friends, etc etc.

The bible has God's words recorded in it for sure, but it also has the words of Satan and the words of (uninspired, natural or fallen) man.

Lee with his post-protestant hermeneutic said he extracted life from the Bible, but I've shown that he never considered Christ. So he failed. There is no life without Christ. And there's no life in his footnote in Psalm 18:20. Just fallen men's concepts.

The NT clearly showed the Father's deep delight in the Son. But the psalmist spoke of God's delight (Psa 18:19) and Lee simply said, "Nope." What kind of exposition is this? "He (the Father) rescued Me (the Son) because He delighted in Me". Didn't Peter use this kind of word in Acts 2, to show the relationship of the Father to the Son, and to declare that our faith in this Approved, Resurrected and Glorified Son now opened the door to salvation for all? Why close the door so quickly, so summarily?

11-11-2016 06:04 AM

Ohio

Re: The NT reception of the Psalms

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

11-11-2016 02:02 AM

Evangelical

Re: All the words of this life

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

Peter was told by a heavenly messenger to continue speaking "all the words of this life" to the people. What words were they? Paul's epistles did not yet exist. The prophetic word, now made clear, was of Jesus the Nazarene. The prophesied Messiah was "this Jesus".

By contrast, where was the prophetic word called low, fallen, and vain? Nowhere is where. By its own testimony Witness Lee’s ministry was judged as fallen man's natural concepts.

Suppose you quoted Peter out of context, saying Paul's words were difficult to understand, and recommended reading only Ephesians 1 and 2, because the rest of the epistle would only bring confusion and death? What kind of a gospel are you then preaching? What kind of a Bible do you then hold?

The Bible continually stresses "every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God." Not just those words which are suitable for your hermeneutic. If you read the RecV Ephesians, you'll get a verse and a page of WL footnotes. Read a page of RecV Psalms, which Paul in his letter to the Ephesians recommended to the saints - "be filled in Spirit" - and you'll get nothing. Maybe a cross-reference. Maybe a footnote panning it as natural. Page after page of emptiness.

Answer me this. Is this verse a "word from the mouth of God"?:

Matthew 4:9 ""All this I will give you," he said, "if you will bow down and worship me.""

No. It is from the mouth of Satan.

Is this a word of life or a word of death?:

1 Samuel 15:3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.'

Even though it is a word from God's mouth, it is clearly not a word of life. Suppose you read and pray read 1 Samuel 15:3, what sort of person would it make you? It would not do your spirit much good.

From these simple examples I have proved that
1. Not every word in the Bible is from "God's mouth", however, every word in the Bible is inspired (is there for a purpose, according to God's will).
2. Not every word in the Bible is a matter of life or can give life. Only the Spirit gives life.

Jesus said "The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you--they are full of the Spirit and life.". There is actually no verse in the Bible that says all and every verse in Scripture gives life. I have given two such examples which do not give life - one the voice of Satan, the other God's judgement which brought death.

The Bible is a book of life but that does not me an we do not need to extract the words of life from the Bible, as Lee tried to do with the life studies.

We cannot extract much life from the words of Satan or the words of man, which are recorded in the Bible but are not from the "mouth of God".

I could go on with bible verses that are not from the mouth of God but from fallen man- the false prophets for example,or Job's friends, etc etc.

The bible has God's words recorded in it for sure, but it also has the words of Satan and the words of (uninspired, natural or fallen) man.

11-10-2016 05:26 PM

Evangelical

Re: The NT reception of the Psalms

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

I'll protest this until my last dying breath.

You take a part of one verse aimed at the unbelieving, Jesus hating, hypocritical Pharisees and construct doctrines around it. It is the Lee way.

I told you before that I was given a Paraphrased Bible by a coworker who showed me friendship in my time of need, and just by opening that Bible in bed before I passed out from working my 14 hour days, I was dramatically and gloriously saved. My life, and even my own personality, was forever changed in those few minutes.

And you are telling me that we can't find life in the Bible?!?

I am thankful that the total number of Christians like you is extremely limited.

Are you saying you were saved just by opening your Bible and the Spirit jumped into you at that moment. Or are you saying you got saved because you opened the Bible, read it, your eyes were opened, and you prayed to God for salvation?

Because I don't think many Christians would believe or agree that one can be saved just by opening their Bible, just as one cannot be saved just by touching the statue of the Virgin Mary for example.

It just contradicts so many things taught and believed in Christianity about how a person is saved (hearing the gospel, believing, repenting , confessing etc).

11-10-2016 07:01 AM

aron

Re: The NT reception of the Psalms

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

I'll protest this until my last dying breath.

You take a part of one verse aimed at the unbelieving, Jesus hating, hypocritical Pharisees and construct doctrines around it. It is the Lee way.

And following Evangelical's lead, how do we know that the Living Stream Ministry wasn't peddling us "Death Studies" and not "Life Studies" of the Bible? We really had Lee's word for it, and little else. What assurance do we have that it wasn't an exercise in vanity, poring over selected scriptures while ignoring or dismissing the 'unhelpful' ones, thinking that it was the process of advancing eternal life? Is the God's Economy metric really able to supersede scripture?

For good or ill, the canon of scripture was established. Where does Christian doctrine, history, or tradition permit us centuries later to relegate supposedly low and natural sections to the dustbin, or to a second-tier, "fallen human concept" status? Where's the apostolic precedent for such a move?

11-10-2016 04:35 AM

Ohio

Re: The NT reception of the Psalms

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

We do not find life in the Bible. Life is only to be found in Christ. The moment we seek life in the Bible we do as the pharisees did:
John 5:39 You pore over the Scriptures because you think you have eternal life in them, yet they testify about Me.

The Bible gives us the knowledge of life. Some Bible verses give us knowledge of life, but others give us knowledge of death.

11-10-2016 03:14 AM

aron

All the words of this life

11-09-2016 07:38 PM

Evangelical

Re: The NT reception of the Psalms

11-09-2016 04:59 AM

aron

The NT reception of the Psalms

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Hi aron, The massive quantity of messages given by Brother Lee showing Christ as the fulfillment and reality of all the types, shadows, prophecies, etc. in the Old Testament speak to his great love, honor, labor, and devotion to the Old Testament. Your accusations to the contrary have no merit. If you didn't toss those Life Studies, which Stuttgart considered good inspired stuff up until a certain date, then dust them off, read them for yourself, and refresh your understanding about what he taught.
Then, I will be happy to discuss, engage, or debate any topic concerning what Witness Lee actually taught. It is pointless to discuss teachings he never taught! No one benefits from that no matter what side they are on.
Gott gebe euch Verständnis,
Drake

Christ was the fulfillment of the types of the OT. Witness Lee taught this, true. This was in accord with the NT reception of the Psalms.

My question is, where in the NT reception of the Psalms do we see them say, "Christ is the fulfillment of Psalm 2, 8, 16, and 22, but not Psalm 1,3,4,5,6,7,9,10,11,12,13,14 etc etc?"

Did Paul give some private fellowship to the saints that only some texts were indicative of the coming Messiah, who was now revealed to the world as Jesus the Nazarene? And this private fellowship was lost for 1,900 years until Lee by his God's Economy metric was alble to pry the truth from the text?

How do we know that the Blessed Man who meditated on the word day and night, whose leaf never withered, wasn't also the enthroned King of Psalm 2? Jesus was the Obedient Lamb of God in Psalm 1 who was thus uniquely qualified to be our Good Shepherd in Psalm 2. Then in Psalm 3 you have rebellion: "I lay me down and slept/I awaked for the LORD sustained me" is akin to "I have the power to lay My life down, and the power to take it up again", etc etc. There is possibly indication of the experience of Christ in the text.

And so forth. "The unfolding of Your Word brings life/It brings understanding to the simple."

But to my recollection Lee never considered Christ. He gave two options: either the psalmist spoke truly and was the blessed man, or the "NT believers" somehow fulfilled this. He could see neither, and dismissed the text as low, fallen, natural concepts of sinful man. Why was this not considered as a revelation of Christ, as was Psalm 8 or Psalm 22 or Psalm 110 or Psalm 69?

When in Acts 2 Peter considered the failure of the psalmist to fulfill his declarations in Psalm 16 "You will not let my flesh see corruption" he didn't say it was merely vain, fallen natural concepts of a sinner, but rather the revelatory indication of the coming Christ. Why then did Lee instead take the former tack in handling the OT text? What NT precedent did he have for this kind of reception of the psalmic text?

When one looks, one can see NT echoes in the OT text, even in the most unlikely places. The psalm of David's confession, Psalm 51, would seem unrelated to Christ. Yet in the restoration line, "Then I will teach transgressors Your ways/And sinners will turn back to You" I can hear faint echoes of Jesus saying to Peter, "I have prayed for you, and when you turn, you will strengthen the brothers."

There is life in the text. Its unfolding brings life. I don't claim revelation, but rather object strenuously to Lee dismissing the text so cavalierly, and creating a system in which if he dismissed it, nobody could find life either. "You neither enter into life, nor allow your disciples to do so."

07-12-2016 07:18 AM

aron

The Faith of Jesus Christ

Rom 3:22 (KJV) Even the righteousness of God with is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Gal 3:22 But the scripture hat concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Notice that it doesn't say faith 'in' Christ but faith 'of' Christ. "He trusts in God; let Him (the Father) save Him (the Son) now" (Matt 27:43; Psa 22:8) -- Jesus Christ believed and trusted in the Father. So when He came to the scripture, "I'll obey Your word" (Psalm 119) wasn't the vain imaginations of the sinner but rather the framework and vehicle for His faith, the faith of Jesus Christ, to come and redeem sinful humanity. This is explicitly confirmed by the Hebrews 10:9 citation of Psalm 40 - "I come to do Your will, Oh God" etc. The faithful obedience of the Son becomes the gateway to salvation to all who would believe.

And it is the faithful Spirit of this Son who comes into our hearts, crying "Abba, Father!" It is the faith of Christ that inflames our hearts, not our own. Remember that it's no longer we who live but the Spirit of the Son who lives in us, who's guiding us home through repentance and obedience.

Safe to say that Witness Lee looked at the Psalms and missed all this, even though NT usage gave a clear invitation to do so. He had his "God's economy" metric to protect. I argue that by distracting people from God's Christ, and discouraging them from finding the faith of Christ in its pages, Witness Lee's RecV Bible isn't worth the paper it's printed on.

Of course that's merely my view at present, and it may change over time, as my views often do. And the real truth here may be that I'm a vain, quarrelsome person, looking to pick a fight somewhere. If so, and to what extent this is true, I apologize for a wrong spirit.

You know, if Moses was a true and faithful peacemaker, when he saw the Egyptian beating the Hebrew slave, he'd have run up and embraced them both, and healed them, and they'd all sing "Kumbaya" together. Unfortunately it wasn't to be so, at that time. But the faith of Christ is coming, folks. Be embraced and love your neighbor as yourself, even the one who's currently suffering under bad ideas, and causing others to suffer. Because we all fail. "Who has sinned, and I don't burn?"

It seems fitting to leave you with a song:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvhWTWpNWL0

07-11-2016 06:58 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by unreg

I propose that the Psalms are given less attention because there are powerful chapters in that book that can be used against demons and witchcraft.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HERn

Which ones are those and how does one use them. The reason I ask is that I might have a relative who is believing demonic lies.

The Jews long believed that David was communing intimately with God, and the words of Psalmic poetry allowed them special access. So they use David's words to pray to God. And certain specific Psalms, over time, became known as poems for, say, protection, or healing, or freedom from demonic oppression

The Lubavicher Jews seem to display this tendency most prominently. Just google "psalms protection prayer" and you'll pull up a host of websites giving particulars.

The Psalms were oral texts, recited, sung and prayed, often in communal setting. As such they became the basis of social understanding of who God was, what His will was, and what were relations between Godly persons. These inspired poems were also a window into the "mystical" unseen world. The psalmist was inspired, in oracular spirit, and by this same spirit the initiate could also enter the experience. (Not too different from Lee's ideas, except Lee panned these texts as "low", "fallen" and "natural".)

What follows an idea of why the Psalms were "given less attention" under Lee, as the unregistered poster above has noted.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

Witness Lee clearly had control issues. When the saints actually began to take the apostle Paul at his word and sing the Psalms, "As the hart panteth after the water brooks/so panteth my soul after Thee, O God", then Lee got worried because they were enjoying the Word outside his ministry and this to him was most dangerous. Lee wanted to be the sole mediator of man's revelatory experience in the Word of God. So Lee told the fellowships in the Lord's Recovery to stop singing the Psalms, because they were too low. I have heard this verbally from several people who were there.

He didn't, of course, say "Stop singing the Psalms"; he said, "It would be better if you sang verses from Ephesians than from Psalms". Then he imitated in a mocking way the saints as they praised God using the words of the psalmist. His "shaming" actions were enough to discourage the saints.

I respect the Lubavitcher, and others, and hope to learn from them, as they've had great familiarity with these words and how they've been received over millennia. (The Lubavitcher are a prominent sect in Judaism today, similar to our Baptist or Anglican). But for we the Christians, these mystical texts allow us access to the heart of Christ. The reciprocal delight between Christ and His Father becomes our new reality. When Jesus said, "These things were written concerning Me" this was his explicit assent, even encouragement, to this notion. And the epistles' repeated psalmic usage confirms the gospel record.

Quote:

"Mysticism is a technical term for a cluster of religious phenomena that relates to religious practice within a specific religious system (Judaism, Christianity), that takes as its goal the experience of union or communion with a transcendent reality that is ultimately beyond intellectual comprehension and that has concrete social function within the life of a particular community"

So these often vague pronouncements - "Behold He comes, with ten thousands of saints" - aren't merely to be analyzed objectively (Coming where? From behind Mount Seir? (Deut 33). Why did Jude cite Enoch and not Moses? And before or after the secret rapture; and with 'holy ones' or 'holy angels' [MT v. LXX] or both?) but are to be entered as experiential doors. At some point our mind also finds meaning, but primarily we "enjoy" it as the LC folk say. And we enjoy because Christ enjoyed.

"He rescued Me because He delighted in Me" (cf Psa 18); God doesn't delight in me the sinner. He delights in His Beloved Son. But by faith I see the His Beloved Son, the Christ who is our Lord, and by faith and confession am transferred "into Christ", and by faith I pursue Christ in the sacred texts. This is my salvation.

And the LC saints were entering into this: for example, a Jewish believer from dreaded "Christianity" had put Psalm 51 to music, and the saints were entering into mystical union - "take not Thy Holy Spirit from me" - and this bothered Lee. Control was slipping away, and forbidden doors were being opened. Songs were spontaneously pouring forth. Salvation was not a dry term but a deepening stream of experience, an emergent, communal performance - so he shut it down.

(Please note that I don't consider Psalms as superior writings to those of, say, Isaiah or Moses; rather I'm protesting the outright rejection of inspired scripture, both explicitly in footnote, and implicitly by non-coverage [the RecV psalms have page after blank page without footnote, and few cross-references].)

The LC have what, a dozen or fifteen psalms among their 1100 hymns, often merely a line or two? What about the other hundred and thirty five? Too low to bother with? What kind of gospel are we preaching, here? And why is our hermeneutic, our "enjoyment", taking us away from the text?

07-09-2016 04:45 PM

HERn

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I propose that the Psalms are given less attention because there are powerful chapters in that book that can be used against demons and witchcraft.

Which ones are those and how does one use them. The reason I ask is that I might have a relative who is believing demonic lies.

07-09-2016 04:17 PM

Unregistered

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

I propose that the Psalms are given less attention because there are powerful chapters in that book that can be used against demons and witchcraft.

02-22-2016 09:40 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

Instead of supporting a narrative, the text becomes a set of disjointed aphorisms, to be mined for today's theology.

What are today's texts were once oral narratives(1). They were stories, songs, poems. So each narrative had a theme. It wasn't a set of disjointed aphorisms. (Perhaps Proverbs or Ecclesiasticus were, but typically texts were initially narratives.) "Jack and Jill went up the hill to fetch a pail of water": it's how we remember things. The characters, the going, the landscape (a hill), the fetching, the pail and the water are all remembered for their place in the narrative.

So I suggest that "not one of His bones were broken" and "Zeal of Thy house has eaten Me up" were originally formed as part of a narrative; actually a set of narratives which made up a larger narrative (Psalms), a meta-narrative if you will. And this was set with and looked to "the Law" and "the Prophets" as a still larger story - that of, "the scripture says".

"His disciples remembered that it was written...", and "These things were written concerning Me..." in the NT narratives were in a context which (I suspect) gradually lost meaning, and narrative thrust. A new context arose, meet for today's need of Reformation or Recovery or True Remnant Church or whatever, and a new meta-narrative came forth, and then the text was only useful to support "God's New Testament Economy" or whatever they're pitching today.

So if you review their product, and the salesman (sorry, Bible expositor) says, "natural, natural, natural - eureka! A revelation of Christ! - natural, natural, natural", as they cover the text, and you wonder how far we've gone off-course, perhaps this is an initial clue, or signpost.

But the good news is that the text is still there, preserved largely in toto, waiting to speak. The story is still there. But ignoring the text as "natural" won't bring you the story.

1. Remember that Peter and the rest were called "unlettered" in Acts 4:13. Even then, the texts were known primarily orally, by the uneducated masses. Thus the narrative structure was crucial.

02-19-2016 02:30 PM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

Today, if you walk up to a LSM'er and quote Psalm 14 or 114, they'll stare at you blankly. It has no meaning... if you refer people back to the actual text, and to supporting documents, they stare at you as if you suddenly spoke Martian..

If you share from the "fallen texts" this puts LSM'ers in a dilemma. Lee had panned these writings, so if you dredge out life and light and hold it forth, then this threatens the validity of Lee's dismissal. You're forcing them to choose between the ministry of the age, and the Word of God, and this choice makes them uncomfortable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

But today the narrative is gone. Awareness is minimal, at best...

Instead of supporting a narrative, the text becomes a set of disjointed aphorisms, to be mined for today's theology. Otherwise it has no value and can be profitably ignored; it's not the 'up-to-date speaking for today'.

My counter-argument is that nowhere was this attitude displayed in the New Testament. Paul never treated the source texts thus, nor did Jesus. Quite the contrary. "Man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that is breathed out of the mouth of God." What ministry can obviate that?

02-19-2016 10:04 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

I think there is some Christ to be found in more than 3 of the first 21 Psalms.

According to Lee, Psalm 2, Psalm 8, and Psalm 16 had revelation of Jesus Christ. They were words in, of, for, and to the "gospel of God... concerning His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord" which Paul referred to in his letter to the Romans. (1:1 & 1:3). This gospel was promised beforehand through the prophets in the Holy Sciptures (v2), and these promises are seen in Psalms 2, 8, and 16. The New Testament usage of these texts makes this clear.

But if the NT didn't make such use of the Psalms, Lee wasn't interested, and this constituted the bulk of the material in question. Today, if you walk up to a LSM'er and quote Psalm 14 or 114, they will stare at you blankly. It has no meaning.

My argument here, has been that this corpus had meaning, as evidenced by its widespread citation in the NT. There was a narrative unfolding on the ground, which narrative was widely if not universally recognized and understood, and thus the frequent citation by NT speakers and writers. They used shared meaning to construct new meaning: "Jesus is both Lord and Christ".

But today the narrative is gone. Awareness is minimal, at best. In extremist groups like the LC, scripture's even dismissed as passe. The "NT revelation" has supposedly superseded the Old. Yet this supposed new revelation is based on teachings like those put forth by Lee, who had little respect for the body of text, and minimal knowledge, and with no external restraint his imagination was free to fabricate interpretive matrices that could even be used to dismiss the text itself.

And if you refer people back to the actual text, and to supporting documents, they stare at you as if you suddenly spoke Martian. The supporting commentary by the Fathers is gone, the pseudepigrapha and apocrypha are gone, cultural awareness is gone, and the actual text is even dismissed by and large. In their minds it truly doesn't exist.

You've moved from an unfolding revelation to sola scriptora to sola theologica. And if this theology is the homespun creation of an accountant from Yantai, Shandong, China, how far have you traveled away from the "gospel of God... concerning His Son, Jesus Christ who is our Lord"? If that which was written by the prophets is dismissed as "fallen concepts of men", what's your theology based on? What kind of gospel have you constructed with it? One that's qualitatively different from the one presented in the New Testament.

01-14-2016 06:56 AM

aron

Re: A kind of recap

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

WL only acknowledge Jesus where NT usage and/or strong Christian convention forced him to... otherwise we got LSM statuary and iconography, courtesy of "God's economy".

To tack on a brief post-script:

LSM's religious iconography and statuary:

1. God's economy
2. The local ground
3. God's deputy, the minister of the age
4. God's present move on the earth

etc
etc
etc.

All of this stuff invaded our consciousness, interrupted our dialog with our Father and each other in scripture, and became a snare, a trap, and stumbling. Salvation is found in Jesus Christ alone.

01-14-2016 06:34 AM

aron

A kind of recap

Wanted to try and recap, or sum up, the argument thus far. On another thread a poster was ruing their situation, and my counsel was to look away from the situation and at God's Christ. I wrote, "Let your consciousness meld with His". In retrospect that's pretty weak advice, even if we point to scripture verses - you know, "Look away unto Jesus" and "Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus" etc.

So I'll try and make it a little more practical, and will do so by telling two stories. First is from when I was reorienting myself toward God, and happened into a Roman Catholic building. There were stained glass windows: translucent colored panels filled with what I assumed were apostles and holy men looking down. Some of the pictures seemed to reference familiar stories; I think of Elijah getting fed by a crow, for example. In the marble-tiled foyer, there was a prominent statue of whatever patron saint was presiding over this congregation (St Whoever's Church). And in the back, against the wall, was an image of a man looking sorrowfully, wistfully, up into the sky. I assumed it was supposed to be Jesus looking up to His Father in heaven.

By analogy, I realized that there was a lot of extraneous stuff that kind of pushed Jesus into the corner, in this case literally. WL said that he rescued us from this by making Jesus Christ the "centrality and universality" of the LC experience, but ultimately I realized that his "God's economy" interpretive metric was similar to the RCC iconography in that scene in my memory: a distraction and a stumbling. Jesus Christ is still there, but His presence has diminished, and even dangerously receded.

Second story: in the gospels they were in a boat. The wind blew and the boat was tipping. These were fishermen, but were struggling to control the situation, and were fearful. Suddenly they saw Jesus. Walking toward them, across the water. I love this story because it's so stark. You know the rest: Peter calls out, Jesus replies, Peter gets out, then looks away and begins to sink. This clearly indicated to me the utter necessity of looking in a resolute and fixed way upon the Person of Jesus Christ. Don't look away from Him, for anything. Don't look at your situation: look at Him.

Now, here's how I think we can look at Jesus, and how WL's "economy" metric placed the equivalent of RCC statuary in our path. And I want to use the first few chapters of Psalms.

Psalm 1: blessed is the man who keeps the law, who obeys, who walks rightly. This is Jesus Himself.

Psalm 2: the inauguration of the King, the Son of God. This also is Jesus, the Obedient Son, who is now King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Hear Him, and live ("Kiss the Son lest you perish in the way" [2:12, etc]).

Psalm 3: Rebellion. "I lay Me down and slept/I awaked, for the LORD sustained Me." The cave, the pit, the snare, the deep water enclose Him but can't contain Him; this narrative continues unabated throughout the psalms. Again, in John's gospel: "I have the power to lay My life down, and to take it up again."

Psalm 6: Judgment. "Get away from Me, you evildoers!" (v.8). See also Psa 119:115, 139:15. For fulfillment see e.g. Matt 7:23, 25:41; also Jesus' rebuke to Peter in Matt 16:23, and rejection of Satan in the wilderness temptation.

Psalm 18: Salvation. "He rescued Me because He delighted in Me" (v.19). See continual referents in NT to God's delight of Jesus (Matt 3:17, &c).

Now, WL approached the text with "God's economy" interpretive metric in hand, and rejected the "natural boasting" of the psalmist, who said God approved of him, and who claimed obedience to the law, and who said God would save him from evil and harm, even from death. WL compared this, unfavorably, to the NT "grace enjoyer" who didn't have to do anything but receive Christ. So we got two images, one of David or Asaph or some other OT (sinful) person, and one of the prototypical Christian believer. But I argue there's a hole in the middle, here: where's Jesus? WL typically only acknowledged Him where NT usage and/or strong Christian convention forced him. (With Peter's epistle, he even rejected NT citation!) Otherwise we got LSM statuary and iconography, courtesy of "God's economy".

So my advice was, and is, let your mind become saturated with the mind of Christ. Not the Christ in Lee's folk theology but the one in text of scripture.

Lastly I recommend also the initial stages of the Epistle to the Hebrews. The author cites something like 8 psalm passages, then says, "we see Jesus". The author didn't know Jesus in person, having heard about Him from others (2:3). But now in 2:9, "we see Jesus". Where? In the text of scripture, obviously. The writer of this epistle looks into scripture, some which is cited, and sees Jesus portrayed, and uses the pronoun "we"; expecting the readers of the Epistle to do likewise.

I say, accept the invitation. Look at Jesus. Never look away. Go deeper into the divine revelation, before us in scripture. Let your mind and consciousness become infused with His. Let the Word of Christ dwell in you richly, yes even by singing psalms. Let Christ make His home in your heart. Then the love welling up within you for the Father will not be yours, but the Spirit of Christ within you, yearning to return home.

The psalmist said, "Oh how I love your law/I meditate on it all day long." (119:97). And of course the psalmist failed. As Peter said, "His grave is with us to this day." (Acts 2:29) Death claimed another pious sinner. But the love of Jesus toward His Father made Him love every single word that proceeded out of the mouth of God (cf Matt 4:4). Jesus lived in sinless perfection, and God furnished proof to all by raising Him from the dead (see e.g. Acts 17:30,31). This love, which was in Jesus' heart toward His Father, now invades our consciousness, and all our earthly loves and fears and cares vanish in the brightness of His presence (Gk: parousia).

Anyway, I'm rambling here, even dangerously so. Please forgive me for brazenly displaying my ignorant enthusiasm.

01-12-2016 06:31 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

let's go to Psalm 2. Suddenly we see the installation of the king, who's designated as God's Son. I contend that this King is none other than the person who fulfills Psalm 1. The King must be obedient to God, to love God's law, to meditate on it day and night. See Deuteronomy 17..

This idea of the "Deuteronomist" arrangement of the Psalms to show the obedient King as exemplar of divine law-keeper is worked out in

http://www.amazon.com/King-As-Exempl...ng+as+exemplar

by one of those dreaded seminary scholars.

Connecting this to rebellion in Psalm 3 to further a narrative structure is my idea, as I remember; not sure anyone else has noted it. Again, this is not theology, here, folks; I'm just thinking aloud. I enjoy writing, and it may possibly be of profit and interest to others, and when I go off the rails usually someone is willing to pipe up, and wave me back toward the flock.

01-12-2016 05:46 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Wanted to expand on some thoughts posted elsewhere:

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

... if you look at theocracy as presented in the Bible, the promoted human King, heir of Davidic line*, is fully obedient to God the Father in heaven, and as such becomes peace and salvation to all who obey Him. Please note well that Psalm 2 follows hard upon Psalm 1, and fulfills it. Jesus fulfilled all righteousness. Jesus kept the law, utterly. So He's the True King, the Anointed (Gk:Christ) Son of God, glorified forever.

Now the enemy comes in and usurps this: see Psalm 3. Absalom rebels. Someone else, a sinner, disobedient, and not anointed, comes in and proclaims that he's the new King, the new Deputy God. A sinner, unauthorized, promotes himself into the position of kingship, which should be held by Jesus alone. Chaos ensues; look at all the vain efforts to maintain the so-called Authority of this usurping one, in the context of Little Flock/Local Church history. Storm after storm. Turmoil after turmoil.

*Matthew 21:9 "The crowds that went ahead of him and those that followed shouted, "Hosanna to the Son of David!" "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!" "Hosanna in the highest heaven!"

Witness Lee said that the pious declarations of the psalmist in Psalm 1 were vain. "Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the wicked..." WL said nobody can do this. All have failed. The law can only expose - it cannot save. In Psalm 1, he ignored the obvious parallels to the "NT reality", in the tree planted by rivers, which never withers (cf Rev 22:2; Ezek 47:12) and the congregation of the righteous (cf Psa 22:22; Heb 2:12). WL said that Psalm 1 wasn't according to God's economy, but consisted of natural, fallen human concepts.

Okay, let's go to Psalm 2. Suddenly we see the installation of the king, who's designated as God's Son. I contend that this King is none other than the person who fulfills Psalm 1. The King must be obedient to God, to love God's law, to meditate on it day and night. See Deuteronomy 17.

Quote:

The King

14 When you enter the land the Lord your God is giving you and have taken possession of it and settled in it, and you say, “Let us set a king over us like all the nations around us,” 15 be sure to appoint over you a king the Lord your God chooses. He must be from among your fellow Israelites. Do not place a foreigner over you, one who is not an Israelite. 16 The king, moreover, must not acquire great numbers of horses for himself or make the people return to Egypt to get more of them, for the Lord has told you, “You are not to go back that way again.” 17 He must not take many wives, or his heart will be led astray. He must not accumulate large amounts of silver and gold.

18 When he takes the throne of his kingdom, he is to write for himself on a scroll a copy of this law, taken from that of the Levitical priests. 19 It is to be with him, and he is to read it all the days of his life so that he may learn to revere the Lord his God and follow carefully all the words of this law and these decrees 20 and not consider himself better than his fellow Israelites and turn from the law to the right or to the left. Then he and his descendants will reign a long time over his kingdom in Israel.

David, of course, was the exemplar, the man who God chose, in whom God delighted (Psa 18:19; cf Matt 3:17, 17:5), and who exulted in God as his exceeding joy (Psa 43:4).

Okay, but where's the obedience, in Psalm 2, linking it to Psalm 1? Actually this is fleshed out (pun intended) in the gospels. An excellent passage is in John 10.

Quote:

Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? 37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”

Jesus' works proved that He carried out God's will, and in so doing that He was God's Son, and the coming King, blessed forever. The works unequivocally showed this; however they felt about His teachings, and His claims was irrelevant. That He did the Father's works proved that He was the Obedient Son.

And of course there is Psalm 40, quoted in the Epistle to the Hebrews:

Quote:

7 Then I said, "Behold, I come; In the scroll of the book it is written of me. 8 I delight to do Your will, O my God; Your Law is within my heart." 9 I have proclaimed glad tidings of righteousness in the great congregation; Behold, I will not restrain my lips, O LORD, You know.…

The law-keeping King becomes the focal point and blessing of the whole land. If you serve this Son with trembling and fear, you will be blessed. (Psa 2).

Now, it's interesting that Psalm 3 comes next. Rebellion. Absalom and some nobles usurp the throne, and the True King is in a cave, writing a poem (see the superscription). In this poem he says, "I lay me down and slept/I waked, for the LORD was with me" (KJV). This parallels the NT, where Jesus said, "I have the power to lay My life down, and to raise it up again." Obedience to God gave the Anointed One a clean conscience, wherein He could lay His life down as of no regard, trusting that God, whom He unhesitatingly obeyed, would save Him.

It's interesting, also, that the structure of Psalms 1,2, and 3 also somewhat follows that of Genesis 1,2, and 3. God establishes, Man becomes the apotheosis and crowning achievement of creation (Let Him have dominion), and suddenly there's a usurpation. In neither Genesis nor the Psalms do we have a peaceful interlude following creation and establishment, but in both cases the narrative slides instantly into rebellion and war.

Amen, Lord. So be it. Come Lord Jesus.

12-31-2015 07:34 PM

Ohio

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

Did Paul ever indicate that his vision was high, while Peter's or James' was low?

Not exactly, but Paul did demean James and Peter and John in Galations 2.

12-29-2015 05:31 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

In the Psalms, WL would pan David's expressions of fealty to God, as the vain imaginations of a sinner. WL couldn't see the coming Son of David, Jesus the Christ, in spite of the NT's repeated invitations to do so. ... WL pointed either to the "fallen psalmist" under the law, or the "seeking Christian" under grace, but in either case he misaimed ... The Bible is not about David, or even about us; it is about Jesus Christ...

Jesus said, "These things were written of Me" (e.g. Luk 24:44,27; Heb 10:7 &c), and WL replied, "No, they're not; they either represent the concepts of the fallen, law-keeping psalmist, or the grace given to the New Testament (NT) believer." Unless NT usage forced him, WL typically was unwilling to see Christ Himself unveiled in psalm.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freedom

I became disillusioned with the LC, all the ranting and raving about the "richness" of WL's ministry really started to get to me... LCers talk this way because they need the constant reinforcement that these "high peak" teachings actually mean something...

The excitement of that should have died off along time ago, but it hasn't. I see all the posts on Facebook. After each of these trainings, there's talk about how the Lord has been moving and the "last revival" has been initiated to "end the age". It's actually kind of funny how this same supposed "revival" keeps happening over and over again...

I sarcastically included the idea of revival in a recent post, while paraphrasing LSM's verbiage. I suppose this makes me a scoffer; in fact I don't oppose or dismiss the idea of revival, even a 'great' and 'final' one. I'd surely love to see the knowledge of God cover the face of the earth, as waters cover the sea, per Isa 11:9 (also Hab 2:14; cf Num 14:21).

But the question here is, how to base a revival on a ministry which advances itself at the expense of the word of God? Here's a comment on the psalms of David, found in the Dead Sea Scrolls, which is therefore dated at approximately the time of Jesus Christ:

Quote:

Originally Posted by DSS 11QPs Psa 151 prose interlude

And he [David] wrote psalms: three thousand six hundred; and the songs to be sung before the altar over the perpetual offering of every day, for all the days of the year; three hundred sixty four; and for the Sabbath offerings; fifty-two songs; and for the offering for the beginning of the month, and for all the days of the festivals, and for the day of atonement: thirty songs. And all the songs which he composed were four hundred and forty-six. He composed them all through the spirit of prophecy which had been given to him from before the Most High....

It says, "He composed them all through the spirit of prophecy which had been given to him from before the Most High"; all NT reception of the psalms essentially agrees with this. And, equally important for evaluating WL's psalms treatment, there's no contemporary work (i.e. Second Temple Judaism, NT, or shortly after) which regards David's lyrical oeuvre as the equivalent of "fallen human concepts".

If the NT scripture doesn't treat OT source texts that way - in fact, the opposite - how then to give ourselves such license? I scoff not at great revival, but rather at the hubris of treating the word of God so cavalierly. And I summarily dismiss the idea of building any work, great or otherwise, upon such foundations.

No; there's a spirit of prophecy at work in the words before us, including Psalms, and if we do diligence to extract the life, as WL once urged us, long ago, we'll indeed be equipped to revive this land. May God have mercy on us all, and forgive me for my often adversarial tone while writing here. I simply must categorically disagree with the treatment of the word of God. Period. And I'd be willing to let go of pretty much everything "negative" written on this site, that I was simply being crabby, contentious, etc; you know, the "bitter ex-member." Perhaps that's true. But even as a bitter ex-member, I ask, How can we treat the word of God, thus? And, how can we base any work upon such treatment?

I think the Word is bigger than any of us, as is both the life and the works (power, or Gk 'dunamis') it contains. It will take all of us, LC included, to usher its fullness in. So I do apologize to them for my attitude, and for my crabby comments - most have been poorly presented. But I still ask, how can we pass by the word of God in such manner? And how can we expect anything good to follow, if we do so?

Sorry for carrying on, thus... as you see I'm rather passionate about the subject. Thanks for giving me a forum.

12-11-2015 04:10 PM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

The whole structure rests upon "Lee is always right", and if we challenge that, it might collapse... Friends, this is human culture at work, pure and simple.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lisbon

How things changed. One of my first trainings in the Anaheim convention center WL thought he had trouble making his point and very spontaneously called at least half dozen people whom he knew could possibly contribute come forward and speak to the subject for a few minutes. Averil Hendrickson was one of them and the only sister. She did very well. To my observation she did as well as any but such an observation is not worth much from 40 years ago. You can be sure something like that would not take place today.

One could make the argument that WL was only about one thing: the acquisition, consolidation, and maintenance of human power. This, he firmly believed, was necessary for the "building of the Body" or the "Consummation of the New Jerusalem" or whatever, but nonetheless it neatly coincided with him neatly atop the social heap.

WL initially would allow himself to be displaced at the dias; he would even initially invite people up, as Lisbon relates. But eventually the "storms" convinced him that pliable and silent sheep were best for the Church. That included women along with everyone else. It's like the guy who says, "I'm not prejudiced: I hate everybody." WL repressed everyone, women included.

As I said before, if you publicly criticize Mao in China today, 40 years after his death, you will be fired from your job. I am sure the Chinese were mystified at the virtual blood-bath the Americans went into when the Executive (B. Clinton) was found in dalliance with a young female aide. So human culture in the USA isn't inherently superior to the PRC. But my point here is that if we arrange our spiritual assembly according to our human culture, it will be flawed. And if we interpret the Bible according to the desire to maintain the spiritual assembly in a state beneficial to our personal interests, that will be a flawed interpretation.

In the Psalms, WL would pan David's expressions of fealty to God, as the vain imaginations of a sinner. WL couldn't see the coming Son of David, Jesus the Christ, in spite of the NT's repeated invitations to do so. Or, WL would present the "seeking one" of the NT as typified by the psalmist. Again, wrong. The only "seeking one" who ever existed is Jesus Christ. We find our seeking in His. Any seeking of God, apart from Jesus Christ, for the Christian disciple, is vain. WL pointed either to the "fallen psalmist" under the law, or the "seeking Christian" under grace, but in either case he misaimed by turning our attention away from God's Christ. The Bible is not about David, or about us; it is about Jesus Christ. Reality is found nowhere else.

12-07-2015 05:46 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

I'll continue my previous thoughts here, because this thread pertains to the Word of God, and how it is received, and handled. My question has been: can our cultural concepts determine our handling Scripture, and if so, what's the effect on our spiritual walk? Here was my quote, recently posted on another thread:

Quote:

Now, however, mother Nee was saved.... she was deeply convicted by the Spirit of God that she must make an open confession to her son before she could worship publicly. To the utter surprise of the entire family she suddenly stood up, walked over to her son, wrapped her arms around Watchman, and cried out, “For the sake of the Lord Jesus, please forgive me for beating you unjustly and in anger.” This touched Watchman deeply. Never had he heard of a Chinese parent accepting such loss of face. (The Finest of the Wheat, CFP, p. 15).

The teenaged Nee had never heard of a Chinese parent accepting public loss of face like this. I want to stress how strongly ingrained such societal mores (shared values, expectations, behaviors) were. Now, fast-forward 50 years: Nee's replacement, Lee, was also unable to publicly lose face, due to similar cultural imperatives. And the viability of the whole church structure rested upon this unaccountability of its leader. Lee was the "father" figure in the LC movement, and thus was untouchable.

Now let's go back to the treatment of the Word of God. We know that "all Scripture is God-breathed"; we know that the Word of God is living and operative (Heb 4:12), and able to give life and to function within the human vessel. In Matthew 13, Jesus said that the seed sown was the Word of God, the ground was the human heart, etc. This living seed clearly gives eternal life. See also Psa 119:25 - "Give me life according to Your word". I could list another half-dozen verses: "The word that I have spoken to you is spirit and life", etc etc.

But what happens if the "father" figure in the LC movement tells us that the Word is merely the vain, fallen thinking of natural men? My question here becomes: does this Word still give life? Do only some Scriptures live and operate within, separating spirit from soul, or do they all thus give life? And if the Word does in fact live and operate "richly" (Col 3:16) within the human vessel, in separating soul from spirit, then what difference does it make if the psalmist was being natural, or operating prophetically in Spirit? The Divine Word gives divine life, yes or no? Can any present exegetical stance change this simple fact?

So I see three problems, here. First, that Lee forsook the NT pattern of receiving the Psalms. I've gone over this in detail already. There are literally dozens of NT examples holding forth the psalmic Word as a prophetic utterance pertaining to the present reality in Christ Jesus, with no commensurate warning to avoid any "natural" parts. So this dismissal, or minimizing, appears to be a Lee-manufactured addition, to square his "God's economy" notion with the text in front of him. And guess what lost: the text, not his hermeneutic. The text was rejected as "natural".

Second, does then this "natural" word lose its life-giving power? If it doesn't give life, but rather leads us astray, to vain law-keeping, this is a serious issue. I mean, either all scripture is God-breathed, or is not. But if it still gives life, and quickens people from the realm of the dead, then what difference does it make if it expressed David's concepts, as Lee said, or if rather David was in Spirit, as Peter, Paul, John, and Jesus all said, and speaking of the promises to come? It's still the Word of God; it's still clearly a word of Spirit and life.

Third, we have a culture in which "Lee is always right", and this may create cognitive dissonance when LC teachings are contrary to the plain words of Scripture in front of us, and the clear pattern of NT reception thereof.

We now have no way to redress this situation. We tacitly admit that the Word gives life, but have no chance to apply it, because it's been waved away by "God's present oracle"; large sections, he said, are actually vain, fallen, natural, and the concepts of men, not the dispensing of God. We now have no chance to explore this Word, and to find life. If we were to do this, it would challenge the Oracle. And our culture forbids that.

So we're stuck; we've painted ourselves into a corner. We can't access the lively oracles of God per the teachings of His present Deputy, and we can't admit that this Oracle of God is or was wrong, because that would cause an irredeemable social/cultural breach of face. The whole structure rests upon "Lee is always right", and if we challenge that, it might collapse. In order for our social edifice (i.e. "the church life") to remain, we must reject the Word. If Lee deemed the Word to be natural and vain, then we must also, because Lee is always right. Friends, this is human culture at work, pure and simple.

08-01-2015 07:26 AM

Ohio

Re: The heart of the divine revelation

Quote:

Originally Posted by HERn

I'm a HERn and I listened to it all and chose to ignore the red flags because I thought the way they conducted the meetings where all could prophesy proved they were the legitimate heirs of new testament Christianity. It turns out it's a Chinese-flavored sect of Christianity where controlling and WL-adoring-brothers rule the roost and where exclusivity is considered a virtue. I'm glad to be done with them.

Well said HERn.

A frameable quote.

Let's make this a banner for this year's forum "training."

The older I get, the more Red Neck I become. Except for that country music and NASCAR.

07-31-2015 07:53 PM

HERn

Re: The heart of the divine revelation

Quote:

Originally Posted by HERn

Hell, I'm a HERn and I listened to it all and chose to ignore the red flags because I thought the way they conducted the meetings where all could prophesy proved they were the legitimate heirs of new testament Christianity. It turns out it's a Chinese-flavored sect of Christianity where controlling and WL-adoring-brothers rule the roost and where exclusivity is considered a virtue. I'm glad to be done with them.

I want to say that I'm not done with the dear individual saints, just with the religious system known as the Lords recovery. I had to break off all contact in order to not poison them and to get my being free from the strongholds.

07-31-2015 06:03 PM

aron

Re: The heart of the divine revelation

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

They're effectively held to be magical words, which can be incanted (chanted, declared, shouted, prayed over, recited) into existence. So we're counseled to bypass our mind, don't think, just shout repeatedly the magical words that Paul wrote and the LSM translated. Get that word into you and it will metabolically assimilate into your being and transform you.

Actually Paul's writings are special words, just as special as the gospel of John, or Revelations, or Leviticus. God spoke to us through Paul. They're good words to consider, to read often and listen to on tape or CD, to pray over and pray with, and to speak to one another. Yes we should get constituted with them. I think the book of Romans is probably about as good a piece of writing as I've read, anywhere. Brilliant stuff. White hot fire.

But so is Psalm 34. And an unbalanced obsession with one aspect of scripture (Ephesians only, Ephesians ever) leads to an unbalanced truth and an unbalanced life. And secondly, Paul wrote in Ephesians for us to pay attention to Psalm 34, among others. So if you obsess over Ephesians as the heart of the divine revelation, why don't you pay attention to what it's actually saying, instead of what your hermeneutic wants it to say? Go where it is pointing you - go.

07-31-2015 05:33 AM

aron

Re: The heart of the divine revelation

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

WL had something that he called the "heart of the divine revelation", contained in Paul's epistles to the Ephesians, Colossians, Galatians, and Philippians. I think of, for instance, the phrase, "until Christ is formed in you" in Galatians 4:19. Now, I'm no scholar and surely some could argue differently (or present the same argument differently), but I'd like to show how the conceptual Christ formed by WL deviated from that which was being presented in Paul's epistles.

Remember that at the time Paul was writing, they didn't have a New Testament (NT) corpus. The written gospels probably weren't in wide circulation either, at least in present form. What the Christian assemblies had was the extant scripture, which today we call the Old Testament (OT). So when Paul said for the word of Christ to dwell in you richly, was he talking about his epistles? Were the saints really supposed to pray-read his letters?

WL presented his idea of the economy of God, which was (as I remember) God creating man in His image and likeness, then dispensing Himself into Jesus, then as the Life-Giving Spirit dispensing this Jesus into us to transform us fully back into His intended image. The "economy" part was based on Paul telling Timothy to "pay heed to God's economy, which is in faith" (I Tim 1:4) and the Ephesians "You have heard of the stewardship (oikonomia) of God's grace given to me for you" (3:2). But where did Paul suggest that this was to be carried out by praying over his (Paul's) writings?

We might respond that Peter told us that Paul's writings were equivalent to "other scripture" (2 Peter 3:16) and Paul said to "unceasingly pray" (1 Thess 5:17), so we should pray over Paul's writings, as with other scripture. And since Paul's writings are the heart of the divine revelation of God's plan for humanity in Christ Jesus, we should pay special attention to them. This can be seen in the RecV Bible, where you can get a page of small-print footnotes from a verse in Ephesians.

They're effectively held to be magical words, which can be incanted (chanted, declared, shouted, prayed over, recited) into existence. So we're counseled to bypass our mind, don't think, just shout repeatedly the magical words that Paul wrote and the LSM translated. Get that word into you and it will metabolically assimilate into your being and transform you.

But where did Paul suggest this methodology? I don't see it. It seems as if Paul didn't even know what he was writing, or at least withheld the critical details, and only WL saw it. WL's economy of God is for us to incant, imbibe, masticate, shout, the NT and especially Paul's writings to make us the total reproduction of Jesus the God-man. Again, where does Paul actual writing suggest this activity leading to this result? I don't see it.

What I do see is Paul repeatedly telling the saints, among other things, to sing the Psalms, that this will bring the infilling of the Spirit (Eph 5:18) and cause Christ to dwell in them richly (Col 3:16). But WL ignored this recommendation because... why? Because Paul didn't know any better? Was Paul being too modest, recommending the Psalms as a source of spiritual nourishment and transformation, rather than his own writings? The Psalms prominently contained the idea of obedience to the law, and recompense therefrom, which Paul had clearly shown in the epistles to the Romans and Galatians that it couldn' save anybody... so if the law profited nothing, then why did Paul encourage singing psalms, which stress obedience, righteousness, and reward? Perhaps, in the LC, Paul's teachings had now been superseded by those of WL? Was Paul that confused, awkwardly contradicting himself, that WL needed to rescue us from Paul's advice, and turn us fully back to the NT revelation - a revelation not based on the OT scriptures prophetically showing us God's Christ, but rather on dismissing those OT writings and understandings because they were now passe, irrelevant in the newly found grace of God's New Testament economy?

"Just masticate Ephesians, Colossians, Philippians and you'll become God in life and nature but not in the Godhead." Um, sorry but I don't see Ephesians, Colossians, or Philippians saying that. I only see WL saying that.

What I see instead is essentially a confidence trick. We're confronted with circular reasoning, but naively ignore it as we're smitten by the assurance and enthusiasm of its presenter, and we don't notice that we're going round and round the mulberry bush. WL could effectively by-pass Paul, and shunt Paul's writings somewhere they weren't intended, because WL had the revelation of the age. Only WL really knew what Paul meant with his 'oikonomia', it seems; perhaps even better than Paul himself? WL was God's oracle, after all, so if he "extracted revelation" that Paul didn't present us with, it might be a continuation of Paul (and others) extracting revelation from the OT. And how do we know WL had these special extractive giftss? Because he said so - and he has the body of work as God's oracle after all. So if God's oracle tells you that his output is God's oracle you'd better believe him, because... well, because he's got God's oracle, God's present speaking! So he can lead you by the nose wherever he wants - he can take you far away from scripture but you're still in the heart of the divine revelation. And all this is for sale, for just a few dollars. What a blessing.

07-30-2015 05:14 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Here's an example of how the Christ presented in the LC differs from the Christ of the NT: in the NT you have repeated admonitions to "remember the poor", and to take care of those who lack. But the Christ in the LC ignores all that, constantly imploring them for more of the good building material for the building of the body to consummate the New Jerusalem and end the age.

Scripture reveals that God's love for us was personified in the person of His Son, who loved us and died for us. The LC acknowledges that, sometimes even prominently, like on Sunday morning at the Lord's Table meeting. But practically speaking, they pooh-pooh love for one another, likening it to "honey" that rots the pure unleavened bread. So the love which Paul wrote about in some detail 1 Corinthians 13, which was personified in Jesus Christ, isn't pursued; rather the building of the body which supports the ministry. That's the LC love: if you support the ministry you'll get love (usually - even then I've seen it occasionally withdrawn); but if you can't "line up" with the ministry you get no love at all. Jesus taught to show love toward those who can't repay you but the LC Christ seems completely disinterested.

Lastly, where did Jesus ever tell his followers to ignore the scripture, that it was fallen, and vain? Where did Paul write to sing a few of the psalms, those that were received by the NT, but ignore the rest, as mere mis-aimings of natural men? Even in the NT, Peter's quotation of the psalms got panned by WL as "low" and "natural" - where's the precedent for receiving and treating NT and OT writings thus? But in the LC, Christ was like this: only interested in "high peak" theology, showing the processed and consummated Triune God, making us God in life and nature but not in the Godhead, and looking for more converts to sign on and consecrate themselves to the rich ministry of his humble bondslave WL.

This Christ is the obsessive and unyielding centralilty and focus in and of the LC. But to me it doesn't look like the Christ revealed in scripture, so I'm wary of it.

07-30-2015 04:55 AM

aron

Re: The heart of the divine revelation

Quote:

Originally Posted by HERn

I ...chose to ignore the red flags because I thought the way they conducted the meetings where all could prophesy proved they were the legitimate heirs of new testament Christianity.

Ditto. It seemed legitimate. It seemed that we'd found a place where the oneness of the Christian faith was already accomplished and all we had to do was receive one another in the name of Jesus Christ. Simple.

But it turned out that maintaining said "oneness" was predicated upon closely following the ministry of the age, which had a definite earthly component, with real estate, bank accounts, CEO, etc. The old bait-and-switch tactic, favored by used car dealers and grocery stores. It's effective: get their attention, let them think you have what they want, then give them what you want to give them.

Back to "the heart of the divine revelation": just for fun I googled "Christ centrality Witness Lee" and found a long excerpt from his ministry, telling how Christianity had erred, by placing forms, traditions, teachings and so forth in the place of Christ. No, said WL, Christ should be the center and the focus, the all in all. A few Bible verses were sprinkled in for good measure.

But what Christ, I ask? This same message could have been given by the Mormon church: they'd love that the Christ who appeared to the South American natives in 656 AD (or whatever) and told them that they were the 12 lost tribes of Israel, whose Angel Moroni spoke to Prophet Joseph Smith in Elmira NY in 1832 (or whatever) became the centrality and prime focus of the church. In the essay WL went on about Christ, Christ, Christ; but what Christ? The Christ revealed in the Bible or in his imagination? Just like the "Jesus Christ" in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints: a fake one. No discernible basis in reality.

I don't like repeating stories but it reminds me of my friend at work, who was always going on about how Jesus watched over him, and his house, and family, and took care of their every need. Jesus, Jesus, Jesus... Hey that's great, I thought. Then one day he invited me to come over and see his Jesus - it was a crushed velvet, black light poster like the ones you can get for $40 rural gas stations. Turns out he wasn't very interested in the Bible. He already had his Jesus, and that was enough... well okay, I guess. Fine. But forgive me if I continue my search elsewhere. And if you persist in your own journey of willful ignorance, and especially if you start a religion based on it, don't be shocked if your untethered imagination eventually takes you and your followers to weird places. That's just how it works.

07-29-2015 08:22 PM

HERn

Re: The heart of the divine revelation

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

It is hard to imagine WL giving some of those messages in front of thousands of otherwise intelligent people, and none of them could point out the glaring errors of thought parading in front of them. In that sense, yes indeed there is a deceiving spirit at work. No doubt in my mind.

07-29-2015 07:45 PM

HERn

Re: The heart of the divine revelation

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

I'd reply that we're all purveyors of mixture. So strictly speaking that could apply to us all, and at least partly to the Christ which we preach. Christ is of course pure, but the Christ I present to the world isn't always perfect. The safety valve here is in the flock - where one goes astray someone else can speak a restraining or adjusting or cautionary word and vice versa. In the WL-LC-LSM variant, no restraining word is possible, so it can get pretty convoluted, and pretty contaminated.

At first the hermeneutic package seemed well-constructed: some verses from Paul's epistles, combined with the gospel message, seeming to form a coherent message; then that message, whether "God's economy" or whatever label, was overlaid upon scripture. But look critically and we see that verses taken out of context, shoehorned into saying things the NT author never intended; many, many verses are ignored, and even dismissed as "fallen" and "natural", and if you bring it up any of this you're rejected outright. Because, they say, "the oracle has spoken". So the LSM oeuvre is pretty thoroughly contaminated at this point, all the references to Christ this and Christ that notwithstanding.

In the NT, like the OT, the characters were held to be imperfect. Yet for all of that, God was pleased to reveal himself to us. Peter made many mistakes. John and James also. The disciples were often confused, ignorant, frightened, and consistently misinterpreted what was happening. Somehow we got duped by WL & Co into thinking that Paul avoided any error, and then church leadership from thenceforth was, what's the word .. ex cathedra? Unable to err. WL certainly fell into this mold. So he could dismiss the scriptures as unprofitable, and create a Christ which substantially moved away from the traditional understanding, and we had to say, "hurrah". The creation of a novel Christ, formed without any feedback from the ekklesia, should make us all wary. It is hard to imagine WL giving some of those messages in front of thousands of otherwise intelligent people, and none of them could point out the glaring errors of thought parading in front of them. In that sense, yes indeed there is a deceiving spirit at work. No doubt in my mind.

But again, we're all at best only partly sighted here on this earthly coil. So if I tried to keep away from those in deception and error I'd be locked in a box, with my own errors, and none to correct me.

Aron, I think your response was cogent, healthy and fair. Thanks.

07-29-2015 10:56 AM

aron

Re: The heart of the divine revelation

Quote:

Originally Posted by HERn

Is the WL-LSM-LC "Christ" really the resurrected and glorified God-man Jesus of Nazareth or perhaps a cleverly disguised demon?

07-29-2015 09:26 AM

HERn

Re: The heart of the divine revelation

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

"He trusted in God; let him deliver him now; if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God." Matthew 27:43

"All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying, He trusted on the Lord that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him." Psalm 22:7,8

WL had something that he called the "heart of the divine revelation", contained in Paul's epistles to the Ephesians, Colossians, Galatians, and Philippians. I think of, for instance, the phrase, "until Christ is formed in you" in Galatians 4:19. Now, I'm no scholar and surely some could argue differently (or present the same argument differently), but I'd like to show how the conceptual Christ formed by WL deviated from that which was being presented in Paul's epistles.

Remember that at the time Paul was writing, they didn't have a New Testament (NT) corpus. The written gospels probably weren't in wide circulation either, at least in present form. What the Christian assemblies had was the extant scripture, which today we call the Old Testament (OT). So when Paul said for the word of Christ to dwell in you richly, was he talking about his epistles? Were the saints really supposed to pray-read his letters?

No, he was talking about the OT. And while the Psalms weren't exclusively Paul's 'word of Christ', they were heavily cited in the NT and clearly had prominence: Paul specifically mentioned them as revelatory sources twice, in Colossians 3 and Ephesians 5. Along with singing psalms, were various songs which the believers used, parts of which are probably quoted in the text of NT epistles. But I'll make my case with the Psalms, though by no means were they alone understood as being the 'word of Christ'. But they're convenient for us to access today because they have widespread NT precedence (i.e. usage) and line up well with Jesus the Nazarene (probably why NT authors cited them so frequently).

What kind of Christ did Paul's epistles envision being formed in the Christian believer? First, he said that the word of Christ would dwell in them richly, meaning it's living and operative (cf Heb. 4:12). The living oracles (the OT prophetic words of Christ) function within the fallen but redeemed and regenerated human being to turn their thoughts (focus, attention, volition) back to the Father. Originally the prophetic word provided a framework, then Christ came and inhabited this word to the letter (see e.g. the quotes above: Psa. 22 transposed to Matt. 27). Next, the textual equivalent, or parallel, of the word of Christ indwelling us richly is the idea of being filled with the Spirit. So the Spirit that comes when we declare, "Lord Jesus!!" fills us when we access the word of Christ by singing. This is the Spirit that gives life, the same life-giving Spirit that raised Jesus from on the third day. It is indeed a word of Spirit and life.

With me so far? Okay, I hold that this is nothing less than "Christ making His home in our hearts", which gradually leads to "not I but Christ in me", and to "Christ being formed in us". Similar to WL's scheme, except in this case, Christ isn't shorn of historical context. This Christ is the one who lived and walked and breathed in Galilee and Judea, who died and went into the earth, only to rise to glory on the third day. But the Christ formed within their oeuvre is a Christ from WL's hymns, footnotes, teachings and outlines, a Christ controlling access to the word and even excluding the word, if necessary. A generic Christ who can be anything that they need him to be for the LC church life, a Christ removed from the word of scriptures, which scriptures WL called "low", "natural", and "fallen men's concepts" and the like. The choice is clear: I think WL and crew made it easy for us.

I'll repeat what was written at the start: that one could use the same verses and phrases above and argue differently, or could argue similarly using different verses or phrases. I'm not a systematic scholar, and randomly picked a few verses that seemed useful to my case. And I go by memory, so one could also claim, and maybe even show, that WL spoke or wrote differently.

But for me, the Christ that WL's adherents claim is indwelling them richly, and organically and metabolically assimilating into their beings to make them the same as God in life and nature, is a Christ removed from the word of God. It's a Christ of convenience, and of show, a Christ of a Bible expositor's imagination, and that being a Bible expositor who prized his own imagination more than the biblical text. So when they wave their phrases and platitudes it can be hard to say, "amen". I'd love to, but it's hard. Because frankly I don't know what Christ they're talking about.

Thanks much Aron. This goes to the heart of something that has been of concern to me for some time. Is the WL-LSM-LC "Christ" really the resurrected and glorified God-man Jesus of Nazareth or perhaps a cleverly disguised demon? If this is too much I apologize, but I have thought at times that the "Christ" some of the brothers proclaim is not the same Christ I claim to know. Maybe I'm the one deceived.

07-29-2015 05:12 AM

aron

The heart of the divine revelation

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

True individualism is thus to find the Christ who's there before us in the Word. Not the Christ that Lee's theology presents, one shorn of historical context, but the real and true Man who by faith walked in what was set before Him by God's commands. That those commands were previously written in scripture, by fallen men like Moses and David, is not irrelevant, not at all.

07-26-2015 05:58 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

I wanted to copy a quote from another thread, and respond here, because it matches a theme I've been exploring on this thread: obedience.

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

Terry was speaking of individualism and anti-individual ... and communism and democracy are examples of the two extremes. A Theocracy on the other hand is even more anti-individual ... .

(The following isn't presented as 'truth' per se, but some current thoughts).

The paradox of "He who loses his soul-life will gain it" is relevant in the discussion of individualism, and I'd use a quote from the Psalms to shed light. The psalmist wrote, "I run in the pathways of Your command/For You have set my heart free." There's a juxtaposition here, of complete obedience and complete freedom. The writer is a slave to God's every command, but in being obedient has found his true "self", his real being.

We once were slaves to sin, now we present ourselves as slaves to righteousness. The paragon of this latter aspect is of course Jesus Christ Himself, who was completely subsumed by the Father's will, and in so doing became the complete and real human being, i.e. the only true Individual. Hebrews 5:8,9 says that Jesus alone was "made perfect in obedience"; the rest of us, tainted by the fall, became automatons, driven by the flesh and the fallen soul. Jesus alone was completely dependent upon God's command, and thus completely independent of the fallen human sphere.

WL completely misunderstood obedience in the context of the psalmists' writings. He passed it off with, "Nobody is obedient. All are sinners", and held up David's many sins as an example. But he ignored the coming Messiah. Again and again the NT writings point to this, that the OT declarations of piety, obedience, and salvific rescue were fulfilled in Jesus Christ. WL said, "No; David rescued himself", and unwittingly repeated the same charge the scoffers made at the cross: "He trusted in God, let Him save Him (Jesus) now". Hey Jesus, You did so many miracles - Let's see You climb down from that cross! Nyah-nyah-nyah!

No, we know this isn't the case. Jesus obeyed the Father, and the Father delighted in His Son, rescued Him from the grips of death, and gave Him glory.

True individualism is thus to find the Christ who's there before us in the Word. Not the Christ that Lee's theology presents, one shorn of historical context, but the real and true Man who walked in the reality that was set before Him by God's commands. That those commands were previously written in scripture, by fallen men like Moses and David, is not irrelevant, not at all.

In one sense I'm like WL, captured by an idea. But in another sense my idea is different, in that it requires nobody to line up behind me or anyone else. True freedom is to obey God. Only Jesus found this freedom, and only through faith in Jesus Christ will I find it, as well. Only in Jesus can I run in the pathways of His commands; only in Jesus is my heart set free.

"If the Son shall make you free, you shall be free indeed." For me, this is the only true individualism. All other attempts are crushed by hard reality.

07-21-2015 05:56 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Romans 1:17

For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed--a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."

I believe that Paul was quoting Habakkuk 2:14 "See, the enemy is puffed up; his desires are not upright-- but the righteous person will live by his faithfulness --"

The faith that Habakkuk was writing about was a continual action. Being faithful. This is Jesus Christ. We Christians, we disciples of this Jesus, believe, and attempt to follow. We hold that the faithful actions of Jesus were not vain (God furnished proof of this by raising Him from the dead), nor were the declarations of faithful action by the psalmist. The power in those declarations is that they pointed to the coming Messiah. Today through those words we can see the Faithful One, re-orient ourselves to the Father's House via Him, and begin our journey home. The Word of God in this process is key: it reveals Christ to us who becomes our Way home. To disparage the word of scripture as darkened, low, or merely of fallen men's concepts is to miss the point, and fall into grave error.

07-17-2015 05:20 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

If it were about the satanic nature, then how is the Christ obedient? He was also born of a woman, born under the law (Gal 4:4). If satanic nature was the bugaboo here, Christ would be stumbled like the rest. But He believed, and obeyed, and through His obedience He was perfected (Heb 5:8,9)...

The other interesting thing about Christ's obedience, as contrasted to the disobedient angels in what I call "the third fall" (Genesis 6:1-6; for NT ref. see also Jude 1:6, Rev. 12:4) is that this act of continual and steadfast obedience caused Him to be the vector of God's rule on earth, and this could be seen in apposition, and opposition, to the disobedient "unclean spirits" that He met again and again in the gospel records. Christ had pure dominion, because He was a "man under authority" (Matt 8:9) and as such all the forces of darkness had to fall back before Him.

For those who may be puzzled by the link between the fall of the angels in Genesis 6, and the unclean spirits which Jesus continually rebuked and cast out, there was a sizable "intertestamental" literature, exemplified but not limited to the Enochic corpus. For example, jesus probably referenced this in saying, "When an evil spirit comes out of a man, it flies through waterless places seeking rest...etc". This kind of speaking would not be uncommon to the Second Temple or Intertestamental period, most of the literature of which didn't make it into the canonical status but nonetheless informed the understanding of the day. Jude and 2 Peter probably also reference this intertestamental body of work.

In the NT gospel record you see someone who has faith, who lives by faith, who obeys the commands of God without hesitation, and whose obedience makes Him a beacon to those seeking light, as well as a terror to the forces of darkness who continually press in from all sides.

"May those who fear You rejoice when they see Me". - Psa 119:74

"Ah! What have we to do with You, Jesus, Nazarene? Have You come to destroy us before our time?" - Mark 1:24; Luke 4:34

And in the Psalms you also continually see the forces of light in opposition to the forces of darkness. WL mistakenly believed that the author(s) of the Palms were natural, and fallen, unable to extricate themselves from the effect of the fall. However, I believe that they genuinely aspired to the light, and those aspirations set the stage for the One who followed - He that followed was the True Light who came into the world, and who came after them because He was before them. They rejoiced to see Him. "Truly I say to you, your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day". As did David, Lemuel, and Asaph. And many, many more.

07-16-2015 05:07 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by OBW

... concerning the fall in Genesis.. the real issue ... was that it was not that man got something added to him, or that he gained knowledge. Instead, it is more meaningful to state that we changed our allegiance from God to self. We changed our source of right and wrong from what God said to what we reasoned was right or wrong.

The fall was the result of disobedience, not fruit or snakes.

Knowledge is not the problem. Knowledge from our own counsel is.

Right and wrong is not a problem. In fact, right and wrong remain an important thing from the very beginning to the very end. But right and wrong decided by our flawed minds without the counsel of God is very much a problem.

The above quote is from the thread, "Good vs. Lee's Trees", because it touches on what I've been looking at in the text of the Psalms. The declarations of fealty and obedience aren't vain in the Psalms; rather they presage the restorative activities of the coming Christ. "I delight to do Your will", e.g. Psa 40:8, is truly a picture of the Obedient Lamb of God. Jesus said that David was in spirit and writing about Him, and Peter said that David was a prophet who looked to the promised Seed. But WL was blinkered by the "economy of God" as he presented it.

The obedience of Christ directly addresses the issue of the fall, or properly the falls. In the text we see three separate falls: Satan in Isaiah 14, humans in Genesis 3, and angels in Genesis 6. Note that each fall depended on the preceding. Satan tempted the human with fruit that was pleasing to the eye (3:6), and the daughters of Adam also were pleasing to the eyes of the angels (6:2). In both cases the trespass was made not on the act but on the turn from God's command, to begin to consider the alternative to God's will. The "seed" was already in the eyes, and the considerations of the heart, before the "fruit" was in the hand and then the stomach.

The fall of the angels is especially instructive, as the NT commentary doesn't say anything about them getting injected with sinful nature. No, the commentary (see e.g. Jude 1:6, also 2 Peter) says that the angels disobeyed, and left their divinely allotted places, just as Adam and Eve before them, and Lucifer, and as can any servant of God, who receives the commands and instructions of the Divine will.

It's not about being injected with the satanic nature. It's about obedience. The aspiration of the psalmist is good, as are the expressions, which give framework for the coming Messiah, who is Jesus the Christ, God blessed forever.

If it were about the satanic nature, then how is the Christ obedient? He was also born of a woman, born under the law (Gal 4:4). If satanic nature was the bugaboo here, Christ would be stumbled like the rest. But He believed, and obeyed, and through His obedience He was perfected (Heb 5:8,9). And now, just as He obeyed, we are to obey His commands, and be perfected as well - see the extended discourse in John 15. I wouldn't be so quick to wave off the claims of obedience in the Psalms. "I will not delay to obey Your commands." (Psa 119:60) Let's not look away so quickly from the word of God. It's there to instruct us, and guide us to the Christ, who fulfilled the law to the proverbial jot and tittle. Paul called these writings "the word of Christ", and it might behoove us to pause for a moment and consider why.

07-03-2015 07:15 PM

HERn

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

I'm thinking that it is easier to leave the LC and ignore the blindeds if you're a Lee MOTA agnostic. When you realize that Lee was just a natural mortal man who discovered a successful business model, then you can dump the MOTA legend and move on to a more normal Christian life in a healthier group.

07-03-2015 04:30 PM

Ohio

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by HERn

Just wondering who out there really believed that WL was the minister of the age, or the oracle of God? While I was in the LC I don't think I ever believed that WL was the MOTA, but I did view him as being someone special whose reputation God would protect from slander.

I thought he was something like an apostle back in the late 70's. By the time I learned he was a MOTA and the acting God, there were too many in the GLA starting to back away from such claims.

07-03-2015 12:55 PM

Freedom

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by HERn

I never bought into all the talk about Lee being the MOTA. I attended the trainings in the mid-2000's when the blinded brothers started talking about Lee being the MOTA. Little did I realize then, it was mostly talk directed at those in the GLA who weren't using Lee's ministry.

I will say that I felt that Lee had a special reputation before God. I think it was something along the lines of him having more importance than other Christian teachers. That is probably how most LC saints viewed him up to a certain point in time. Probably once Lee started claiming to be God's oracle in the 80's, people started to feel that he was something more than just a Christian teacher that they greatly appreciated.

07-03-2015 11:36 AM

HERn

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

Really, I have to ask, I mean really, just how could Lee think that he could speak for God in proclaiming what is, and what is not, Gods' speaking in the Bible.

How could he ever have any credibility after doing and claiming that, as any kind of a man of the Bible? Who did he think he was? How could we buy it at all? How could any one in their right mind follow him after claiming and doing that?

07-01-2015 08:53 PM

awareness

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Ah, Harold, you flatter me again my man! Look, if I was any kind of a god, even “a little g god”, I would have vaporized you by now, or at least shut you up like Gabriel did to Zechariah.

I'm maybe late on the uptake here.

Dismissing the part of vaporizing me

and at the risk of, perchance, undo flattery again, I'd like to make a contrast. I'd like to point out an admirable attitude of a 'normal Christian,' in UntoHim's rejection of even that he's a little g god, with Lee's shameful attitude of an 'abnormal Christian' of being the oracle of God.

Which brings me to:

Really, I have to ask, I mean really, just how could Lee think that he could speak for God in proclaiming what is, and what is not, Gods' speaking in the Bible.

How could he ever have any credibility after doing and claiming that, as any kind of a man of the Bible? Who did he think he was? How could we buy it at all? How could any one in their right mind follow him after claiming and doing that?

07-01-2015 05:23 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by OBW

Over many years, there has been some look-back to my upbringing in the Assemblies of God (Pentecostal and Arminian), noting what seemed to be an unusually large number of preachers who had to step down over moral issues... We always blamed it on a combination of the erroneous thought that having been “filled with the Holy Ghost” with all the typical Pentecostal baggage that entailed made you somehow immune to temptation, coupled with the idea that since you can lose your salvation anyway and just get it back, might as well “go with the sin” for a bit then repent.

Now other evangelical groups seem to be having the same problems. And it is more noticeable to the outside world because of the size of some of the particular churches involved, and the public profiles of the particular persons. And while the analysis is somewhat different, to me it is still almost the same. Just different in terminology.

Since we as evangelicals claim (rightly) that we are under grace, I believe that our tendency is to rely on that grace to cover our sins (which it does) rather than practice (exercise) ourselves to godliness (righteousness) and other steps which actually engage in the life that Jesus taught rather than just preach about the loving grace of God (which is true) that saves you even though you remain fallen and broken (which you do). So at some level, we come to believe that trying to do the “works” of being righteous, and of other kinds of works, like caring for the widow and orphan, to name a couple, we just assume that we will somehow become better because we read a lot of scripture and pray a lot, but don’t take any action to live like we do either of those things.

A challenge for the new Christian believer is that things are not always what they seem to be, even in church. We hear of a God who hides Himself (Isa 45:15), and may come dressed in rags, to see how we'll behave; like the tv show "Undercover Bosses". "When I was sick you visited Me..." On the other hand, the enemy of God, Satan, will occasionally disguise himself as an angel of light (2 Cor 11:14), and insinuate into the fellowship. Thus, the new believer may reject the world, confess the Lord Jesus, come into the church, and be met with liars & thieves disguised as leaders, while God is sitting very quietly over in the corner. Not easy to navigate, but there it is. And here the Charismatic experience, while not invalid, contains danger, with its stress on sensory experience over hard truth. Just shout and yell and wave your arms and righteousness, among other problems, has been magically solved. Wrong - sorry Charlie. For one example, look at the Corinthians, whose "church life" full of charismatic experiences but also full of sin.

And some of that I see in the LC experience, looking back. Consider the scenario that WL found: after a half-century of war (WWI and WWII), people were exhausted with "progress". We had televisions but also nuclear war, and with the Korean conflict barely fading and the Vietnamese conflict emerging, with civil rights and women's rights and the environmental issues swirling, it was so easy to reject "old religion" and just "exercise your spirit on the local ground". So easy and simple. Just be one. Yell Bible verses and spiritual phrases at each other. Righteousness was either irrelevant, or solved by overwhelming grace, we thought; the newbie was vulnerable to this, being trusting that whatever "leaders" do in church is of God.

Lee could create his shibboleth "religion" and pretend that he was offering a new and shiny alternative. But the fact that he kept adding things to his "Jesus", and kept trying to fleece the parishioners with money-making schemes, and that as regards to righteousness he wasn't even qualified to be a church elder, gives flight to the myth that we were all "feasting on such a rich store".

Quote:

Originally Posted by OBW

David was a failure. But he also repented and took the consequences and at least mostly kept pursuing God. And if you think this is just about reading more scrolls and praying a lot, then I don’t think you understand David very well. He took action. And he actually repented for his failures. He didn’t just say that God would forgive him because of his lovingkindness. He asked for that lovingkindness to forgive him. He repented in sackcloth and ashes. And he wrote a couple of Psalms about it. Made an example of himself.

The Psalms of repentance have a Great High Priest standing by to intervene. So they are not vain. Christ is here, waiting for our confession and acknowledgment. He is always living to intercede for us. So we don't have to pretend to be something we're not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OBW

After about 10 years on these forums, I think my lines have been read.

One of the worst internet forum sins, after being impolite, and thinking everyone else to be hopelessly wrong, is the habit of repeating oneself over and over. When the writer finally gets tired of writing the same things repeatedly, perhaps the reader is getting tired, too, or has been for a while. So I understand, and typically hide my repetitions in new phraseology, but the repetition is unfortunately still there.

So for the sake of a recently arrived reader, assuming there are any, my point in starting this thread was that the psalmist speaking of righteousness probably wasn't vain, natural, or fallen. Rather the psalmist was speaking of the irrevocable demands of the holy God, whose demands of righteousness were met for us by Jesus Christ. This is our faith, our hope, and our life; and yes this is our righteousness. Any minister who tries to dismiss the word of God as "low" or "fallen" and therefore irrelevant, probably went astray somewhere.

06-30-2015 05:38 PM

HERn

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Hi OBW, I don't really know you much, but I wish you all the best and thanks for your comments and prayers.

06-30-2015 04:57 PM

awareness

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by OBW

But my main concerns are moving elsewhere. I will probably peek in on occasion. And even post when it seems appropriate or worthwhile. No one has caused or asked me to “move on.” Just getting to a different place. After about 10 years on these forums, I think my lines have been read. My character is moving off the island. It might resurface on occasion. But it has moved away.

Enjoy.

You will be missed bro Mike.

And as I see it the Christian life isn't suppose to be going to Bible study after Bible study. Where's the Bible living studies?

06-30-2015 04:14 PM

OBW

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Over many years, there has been some look-back to my upbringing in the Assemblies of God (Pentecostal and Arminian), noting what seemed to be an unusually large number of preachers who had to step down over moral issues. I know there have been a number of large non-AOG situations in recent years. But the AOG is a fairly small denomination, so not many mega-churches to look at. And the number still is somewhat large proportionately.

We always blamed it on a combination of the erroneous thought that having been “filled with the Holy Ghost” with all the typical Pentecostal baggage that entailed made you somehow immune to temptation, coupled with the idea that since you can lose your salvation anyway and just get it back, might as well “go with the sin” for a bit then repent.

Now other evangelical groups seem to be having the same problems. And it is more noticeable to the outside world because of the size of some of the particular churches involved, and the public profiles of the particular persons. And while the analysis is somewhat different, to me it is still almost the same. Just different in terminology.

Since we as evangelicals claim (rightly) that we are under grace, I believe that our tendency is to rely on that grace to cover our sins (which it does) rather than practice (exercise) ourselves to godliness (righteousness) and other steps which actually engage in the life that Jesus taught rather than just preach about the loving grace of God (which is true) that saves you even though you remain fallen and broken (which you do). So at some level, we come to believe that trying to do the “works” of being righteous, and of other kinds of works, like caring for the widow and orphan, to name a couple, we just assume that we will somehow become better because we read a lot of scripture and pray a lot, but don’t take any action to live like we do either of those things.

I know. Someone is going to say “There goes OBW again talking about obedience.” And they are right. If you can’t obey, why do we think that anyone should listen to our words that claim a Christ that changes lives. He is not changing ours. Well, may be our attitude toward spiritual things. But not our living. Maybe we don’t rob convenience stores. But are we noteworthy in our lives? Or are we still “just as I am” (or rather were since that was supposed to be at our salvation)?

Yes. David was a failure. But he also repented and took the consequences and at least mostly kept pursuing God. And if you think this is just about reading more scrolls and praying a lot, then I don’t think you understand David very well. He took action. And he actually repented for his failures. He didn’t just say that God would forgive him because of his lovingkindness. He asked for that lovingkindness to forgive him. He repented in sackcloth and ashes. And he wrote a couple of Psalms about it. Made an example of himself.

This is off-topic — at least sort of. But it is so prominent in the various public failings of the past few years. Yes, they step down from their ministries (well most of them do). But when I look at the people I know, both inside the LCM and outside in other parts of Christianity, the tendency of the “it’s just grace” crowd to take few steps to actually live righteously — at least in the areas they don’t consider imperatives. There is something seriously wrong with that theology. And a theology that assumes that once you pray some particular prayer you are simply saved forever seems to give us all a lot of opportunity to indulge the flesh because, as Paul admitted, where there is sin, grace abounds. But he noted that they should not sin just so that grace would abound. Why do we have to still be in that same place? Maybe we aren’t having inappropriate relationships. But what acts of unrighteousness do we allow ourselves? Disdain for others rather than loving them as ourselves? Driving like a bat out of hell and thinking that it is everyone else that are the jerks? (guilty at times)

Yes. The Samaritan woman could tell what she heard and get people to move. But if she is still living with the man who is not her husband in a few months, who is going to listen? How often do we presume that what we say is more important that what we do?

I continue to think there are good reasons for this forum to be here standing up to the nonsense that is the LCM. But I don’t think that my task is to continue that fight here. Might still do it elsewhere, especially if the opportunity for real, meaningful, live interaction with certain persons comes up. But my main concerns are moving elsewhere. I will probably peek in on occasion. And even post when it seems appropriate or worthwhile. No one has caused or asked me to “move on.” Just getting to a different place. After about 10 years on these forums, I think my lines have been read. My character is moving off the island. It might resurface on occasion. But it has moved away.

Enjoy.

06-30-2015 01:45 PM

HERn

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

"All of them took our focus and attention away from our Savior."

That dear bro Aron is the chief sin of the current blindeds running the LSM-LC franchise movement.

He is after all Jesus our Savior or Jesus our Lord. He's not Jesus the creator of gods economy, or Jesus the coordinator of the one new man, or Jesus of the lords recovery, or Jesus of the local churches.

06-30-2015 05:51 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

For every person that dislikes a song, there may be someone who says, "I was in despair, and I heard this song and gave my life to Christ" or some such. Therefore one has to be careful not to be a despiser. And there is a lot of GREAT music out there. But still, the point was that a song, a testimony, a teaching, or a meeting should direct the focus towards Jesus Christ and not away from Him. When the focus of the song is on the song-writer (or his/her hypothetical protagonist) instead of Jesus Christ, then I'm not interested. Been there, done that. That was what was meant by "maudlin treacle" - we'll wallow in the fall of humanity, instead of putting it behind us and focusing, unyielding, on our Lord, Guiding Shepherd and High Priest.

Likewise, the focus of WL was too often on "the rich ministry" or "God's economy" or "The Glorious Church" (Question: if the Glorious Church was so glorious, why did Luther leave the RCC, or WN leave the Protestants?) or some other vision of his. In the LC the focus was always on so many things, added on to the gospel, which supposedly uplifted it but just ultimately distracted the hearer. For example, "Eating Jesus is the way!!" -- see how easily, yet another activity crowds in to our attention? Various flows, moves, and ways, and the storms that follow. All of them took our focus and attention away from our Savior.

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

As for this particular song, "Stranger to your holiness", by STEVE Camp (**Correction from JEREMY Camp, who is also a CCM artist, who coincidentally was born in 1978, the very year of STEVE Camp's first release of a CCM song. Steve and Jeremy are not related)...as for this particular song, Stranger to your holiness, Steve Camp wrote this song very early on in his career, over 30 years ago when he was only still in his 20s, so I think we can give him a pass for this one not being very theologically sound or complete.

Whatever things I've been called over the years, a meticulous scholar wasn't one of them. I apologize for mixing them up. And as noted, perhaps many have been helped by their music. But I offered a subjective assessment of what a particular song was doing for me, which was nothing. And I tried to make it into a larger point, but probably painted too broadly.

Back to an earlier statement:

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

Remember where the Samaritan woman went around and declared to all that Jesus was the Christ? It was based on His accurate assessment of her true condition ("He told me everything that I have done") and His offer of an alternative. The people came to Jesus based on her testimony, but after, they believed because of the experience of meeting Jesus Himself. Her testimony was only valid to draw others to Jesus, not to distract them. Suppose after 3 days they had said, to paraphrase John 4:42, "We no longer believe because what you have said, but now we have seen and believe that Jesus is Lord and you're the seer of the age" (or, "we now have seen the ground of the church", or "we have seen God's economy", etc). Our testimony should ultimately cause people to forget us and our testimony, and turn completely and unequivocally to Jesus.

So I'd modify the statement: The gospel consists of two parts. First included our failure, and how Jesus came to meet us where we were. Second, that our testimony opens the door to the voice of the Shepherd Himself that ultimately meets the hearer, and our testimony then becomes superfluous. We're here to introduce people to Jesus Christ, and then we should be wise, like John the Baptist, and recede.

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Actually I posted this particular song in reaction to hearing the news about Tullian Tchividjian - yet another South Florida megachurch pastor to be caught in adultery and lose his church and substantial national ministry. Tchividjian is a grandson of Billy Graham, and is a self-confessed, highly tattooed former bad boy....I forgot how I ran into Steve Camp's "Stranger to your holiness", but the opening line of "Look's like the boy's in trouble again" just struck me as incredibly relevant and timely to the situation with Tchividjian.

I'm vaguely aware of the name. I'm sad that calamity has come, to him or to anyone. All of us are children of calamity, pelted by the failures of the world. In Jesus Christ alone there is hope. I do desire that our testimonies, our meetings, and our ministries, would all fade away at the brightness of His appearing.

And He is there in the word. The word testifies concerning Him; even He Himself is called "the Word of God." And His testimony is true: He is quite capable of leading us home. Everything He said to us came from the Father of lights.

06-29-2015 01:42 PM

UntoHim

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

One reason I find much of CCM to be essentially maudlin treacle is that it's stuck in the first part. According to the CCM songwriter, Jesus is high up in heaven, and we're down here on earth, either waving our arms ecstatically in "worship" music, or we're confessing how poor and miserable and needy we are. The recent song posted on this site, with lyrics by Jeremy Camp, was exemplary of the genre.

While I generally agree with this statement, I would say CCM has made some very positive strides over the past 10-15 years. I was at the original Calvary Chapel in Orange County CA back in the early-mid 70s and witnessed the very beginnings of contemporary Christian music. Some of it was among the most shallow stuff I've ever heard. Of course today's CCM includes everything from remakes of the old hymns all the way to Christian Hip-Hop! There are quite a number of younger song writers/singers/musicians who are writing some very "theologically profound" lyrics. I happen to fellowship a church with the average age of early 30s, and the worship music could be considered as "contemporary". They sing a wide variety, with a pretty healthy mix of the older hymns (mostly remade with more of a contemporary melody/sound) and a lot of the newer things written by some of the newer artists. Sometimes the band gets a little loud for this old dude, but I have discovered quite a number of newer Christian artists through our worship service. I have posted a number of them on the "Listen Up" module on the home page.

As for this particular song, "Stranger to your holiness", by STEVE Camp (**Correction from JEREMY Camp, who is also a CCM artist, who coincidentally was born in 1978, the very year of STEVE Camp's first release of a CCM song. Steve and Jeremy are not related)...as for this particular song, Stranger to your holiness, Steve Camp wrote this song very early on in his career, over 30 years ago when he was only still in his 20s, so I think we can give him a pass for this one not being very theologically sound or complete.

Actually I posted this particular song in reaction to hearing the news about Tullian Tchividjian - yet another South Florida megachurch pastor to be caught in adultery and lose his church and substantial national ministry. Tchividjian is a grandson of Billy Graham, and is a self-confessed, highly tattooed former bad boy. His parents actually kicked him out of the house when he was only 16. Anyway, this was part of his testimony over the years. I forgot how I ran into Steve Camp's "Stranger to your holiness", but the opening line of "Look's like the boy's in trouble again" just struck me as incredibly relevant and timely to the situation with Tchividjian.

By the way, the teaching pastors/elders of my church just started a series on the Psalms. I think it's going to last at least 6 months. I try to keep you appraised on this tread.

06-29-2015 11:13 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

It still sad that we're stuck with the first part even tho we have the second part.

Quote:

Looks like a boy's in trouble again
Living much too close to the edge of sin
Now he finds himself where he should not have been
Oh God why is Your peace so hard to find
And the answer to the questions that haunt my mind

Oh Lord, Your ways are not like mine

Chorus:
And it pounds like thunder within in my breast
All the anger of my humanness
And though I call You "Lord" I must confess
I'm a stranger to Your holiness, a stranger to Your holiness

Can we really be what we were meant to be
Jesus' people, living by the Spirit and living free
My heart longs to serve, but wanders so aimlessly
Oh Lord You deserve every part of me

CHORUS

Hear my cry of desperation as I see the wickedness of my ways
You alone are my salvation, and Lord I've learned this one thing to be true
Is that the closer I get to You, I see I'm a stranger (to Your holiness)
Don't wanna be no stranger, and it burns like a fire.

The whole point of the gospel is not to fixate upon "the wickedness of our ways", but to see Jesus. Let me go back to the text of the Psalms: "in the midst of the 'ekklesia' (church, assembly, meeting) I will sing hymns of praise to You." This quote from Psalm 22 was shown in the epistle to the Hebrews as: "In the midst of the assembly, I Jesus will sing hymns of praise to You, Father." It is not "In the midst of the assembly I Jeremy Camp will sing hymns of praise to You Jesus".

Or course we do praise and bless the Lord Jesus. But we do so because the Lord Jesus leads us back to the Father. The focus of the church meeting is Jesus Christ, in our midst, leading us home to the Father. The focus is not we the miserable sinners (Jeremy Camp) or we the spotless Bride (Witness Lee). The focus of the meeting is on Jesus Christ bringing us home to our Father. It seems to me that Witness Lee typically ignored the first part, of our sinfulness, and is therefore stuck there. It was if, for him, the idea of sin to the "NT believer" was passe, or irrelevant. Jeremy Camp's song seems to be just stuck there. "Miserable me!!" But I believe that the focus should be that Jesus Christ came to the first part (sinful humanity) to bring them to the second part (the Father's house).

06-28-2015 10:02 AM

awareness

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

I remember reading Matthew 20, when the mother of the sons of Zebedee came to Jesus with her sons, worshipping Him and asking for a favor; WL said that "she was worshipping with a motive". Uh, ok... and he wasn't "ministering with a motive"? We all function at least somewhat impinged by motives; we're all at least partly in impurity. Even the apostle Paul, even the apostle Peter, even dear Miss Sainted Margaret Barber and Seer of the Age Watchman Nee and Witness Lee, God's Humble Bondslave. We're all impure. Only Jesus is pure. I believe that's intrinsic to the gospel message itself. "Forgive and you'll be forgiven..." if you were already perfected, being forgiven wouldn't be necessary, now would it? "Show mercy and you'll receive mercy..." if you were fully apart from the touch of fallen humanity you wouldn't need mercy, would you?

When they came to Him, saying, "Good Master..." Jesus refused the title. Only God is good. While we're here in the flesh of sin we should never presume pride of place. Only after the Bema do we find hope of reward, or glory; not here on earth. I think WL got lured by the scent of earthly glory, which happily tied in with a monopolistic merchandizing of his ministry to the Local Churches of the Lord's Recovery. So he could diss the writers of scripture as being "low" and "fallen", point out the foibles of every character in the Bible, yet anyone somehow exposing his own failures (or his family's) was in rebellion against God.

Obviously Lee was projecting, on others and scripture. I forgive the old coot. Just as I forgive my unapologetic racist father. Both were foolish old coots. I forgive but don't follow either of them.

06-27-2015 05:02 PM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

It still sad that we're stuck with the first part even tho we have the second part.

06-27-2015 03:54 PM

awareness

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

The gospel arguably has two parts. First is that we're fallen and mortal. And yes it is sad. Death impinges upon our every turn. The second part is the good part - God loved us so much that He sent His only begotten Son, in whom we might be restored to life and our Father's presence.

So the first part, while unpleasant, is merely prelude to the second. But we must be clear about the second part. God loved us so much that He sent His Son, and this is not "the normal church" or "the proper ground" or "the ministry of the age". The Son is Jesus Christ, and no other.

It still sad that we're stuck with the first part even tho we have the second part.

06-27-2015 06:52 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

It is sad that we're natural and fallen ... including Nee and Lee.

06-27-2015 06:25 AM

awareness

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

Not at all. I'm suggesting that without understanding the source (OT) of the conversation we're reading (NT), we don't understand it. If we ignorantly presume understanding, then we become shallow and puffed up.

Negative. The grumpy people in John 10 were those who opposed Jesus. They thought they knew the answers. As do we, far too often. My point is that the God Jesus presented wasn't a different God, a "new and improved" God of grace. Jesus fulfilled the law and the prophets, and opened the way for the rest of us by believing into Him. Unlike Jesus, WL held the Psalms texts to be vain, natural concepts of fallen men, which can be profitably ignored.

But if we ignore it, we don't even understand what Jesus was talking about, do we? His quotes don't make any sense to us. And how can we then follow? Even, I would ask, how can we imitate Paul, who imitated Jesus? I repeat what was written initially on this thread: the concepts I see here aren't in scripture; rather they're those of the Bible expositor. Natural and fallen.

Good response. Thanks ...

It is sad that we're natural and fallen ... including Nee and Lee.

06-26-2015 10:27 AM

UntoHim

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

This scene in John chapter 10 is a good example: the writer of the fourth gospel was intimately acquainted with the OT scriptures, as were Jesus and His opposers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

Well the writer for sure ... Jesus and the opposers aren't as certain. As I've stated: Of course the writers of the NT knew the OT. It's all they had. They couldn't be literate without it ... and therefore wouldn't know how to write, or read, for that matter -- like 90% back then -- like what is said of John & Peter, in Acts 4:13 (see Strong's).

Actually Jesus and the opposers were more intimately acquainted with the OT scriptures than even the gospel writers. Jesus was...well for reasons even too obvious for even Harold to deny. And let's not forget the “opposers” were the Pharisees and scribes...these were people who were the most intimately acquainted with the OT scriptures....it was practically their full-time job to memorize “the Law and the Prophets” (along with the rest of the OT of course) Just because they did a pretty lousy job of living those scriptures out does not negate the fact that they were the most intimately acquainted with said OT scriptures.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

The unbalanced RecV Bible, for instance, will have a page of footnotes devoted to a verse in Ephesians or Colossians, and almost nothing, maybe a cross-reference or two, in a page of Psalms.

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

Lee took "Ye are gods" very seriously ... like he could write scripture in his footnotes. But if it's true, that, we are gods, any of us could write footnotes as scripture ... even, maybe, UntoHim ... who is little 'g' god out here.

Ah, Harold, you flatter me again my man! Look, if I was any kind of a god, even “a little g god”, I would have vaporized you by now, or at least shut you up like Gabriel did to Zechariah.

06-26-2015 09:47 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

You're not suggesting that the OT can keep us from becoming "shallow, ignorant, vain, and puffed up; empty sounding brass, full of teachings but with no love or good works" are you?

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

Yeah your point is for us to go back to The Law, and a grumpy old God.

Negative. The grumpy people in John 10 were those who opposed Jesus. They thought they knew the answers. As do we, far too often. My point is that the God Jesus presented wasn't a different God, a "new and improved" God of grace. Jesus fulfilled the law and the prophets, and opened the way for the rest of us by believing into Him. Unlike Jesus, WL held the Psalms texts to be vain, natural concepts of fallen men, which can be profitably ignored.

But if we ignore it, we don't even understand what Jesus was talking about, do we? His quotes don't make any sense to us. And how can we then follow? Even, I would ask, how can we imitate Paul, who imitated Jesus? I repeat what was written initially on this thread: the concepts I see here aren't in scripture; rather they're those of the Bible expositor. Natural and fallen.

06-26-2015 05:56 AM

awareness

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

This scene in John chapter 10 is a good example: the writer of the fourth gospel was intimately acquainted with the OT scriptures, as were Jesus and His opposers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

So when Jesus quoted Psalm 82, "I said, 'You are gods'", everyone was probably expected to remember the rest of the sentence, which hadn't been quoted: "...but you will die like men."

Good point. And isn't "I have said" a throw back to: "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us..." in our Gen. 3:22? And speaking to the Pharisees maybe that's what Jesus meant. We don't know do we, why Jesus quoted Psalms, or if he really did? The author of John may have been quoting it ... maybe even from Isaiah 41:23. And is the Psalms even considered in the Hebrew Bible The Law? Wouldn't that be the Torah? Aren't we just surmising? For fun perhaps? Or for digging at the truth? If we're still doing that.

The real question is: Are we really "gods?" Is that what Jesus meant? Considering the subjective awareness reading (and writing) these words is, the center of our universe, we can certainly see ourselves as a god. Jesus, or the author of John, and Psalms, and Genesis, could have been unto something. Maybe. That even they didn't realize; with their limited view of the universe back then, in the iron age.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

But what happened over millennia, and which amplified with the Great Schism and then the Protestant Reformation and the subsequent Protestant splinterings like British Brethren and Watchman Nee's Little Flock and Witness Lee's Lord's Recovery, is a tendency for the present Christian apologist to fixate upon the so-called New Testament revelation and dismiss, downplay, or ignore the extant scriptures of Jesus' time.

Well it is the OLD Testament. I mean it's old, old, old. And given God's disposition in the OLD Testament the NEW Testament, except for Revelations, is so much better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

The unbalanced RecV Bible, for instance, will have a page of footnotes devoted to a verse in Ephesians or Colossians, and almost nothing, maybe a cross-reference or two, in a page of Psalms.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

And when we read a NT passage like the one in John 10 where Jesus was confronted by the religionists, we'll then gloss over His reply because it was from a psalm, which according to today's Paul (WL) was full of fallen men's concepts,

All of the Bible, old and new, are written by fallen men. And Lee too was a fallen man. We've more than learned that on these local church forums.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

and therefore we miss the whole point of the conversation! Why did Jesus' quoted reply point to multiple gods - "I said, 'You are gods'"? Well, it didn't at all: both He and His antagonists knew that there was only one God of Israel. In fact, Jesus taught that it was central to the "greatest commandment" (Matt. 22:36-40). So, then why the quote of "gods"? Perhaps because those "gods (who died like men)" were not "gods", or "God" at all, but had been servants who were disobedient to God's commandments to which they'd been entrusted, as were the Jewish judges facing Him at that very moment. And Jesus furthermore said in the same section that His works clearly showed His obedience to His Father in heaven, just as their refusal of Him showed their disobedience.

So "gods" in the Genesis since?

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

But we often missed all this because we were unfamiliar with source text, i.e. the OT. We were Christians, or in Lee's parlance, "New Testament believers", so we focused on the NT, the Christian commentary of the apostle Paul, or today's Paul (WL), the so-called minister of the age, and supposedly God's present oracle. Witness Lee effectively told us not to waste our time with the Psalms; stick with the "high peak truths", he said, and with the "heart of the divine revelation": Galatians, Ephesians, Colossians, Philippians. The result is that we became shallow, ignorant, vain, and puffed up; empty sounding brass, full of teachings but with no love or good works. Just like those who were arguing with Jesus in John chapter 10. They knew neither God nor scripture.

You're not suggesting that the OT can keep us from becoming "shallow, ignorant, vain, and puffed up; empty sounding brass, full of teachings but with no love or good works" are you?

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

(the above, especially the last paragraph, only pertains to my growing up Protestant and being in the LC for 6 years, and doesn't apply to many balanced and careful Christian teachers out there, and those who follow them. And Lee may have covered "...you will die like men" in his expositions of John 10 and Psalm 82. But my point still remains.)

Yeah your point is for us to go back to The Law, and a grumpy old God.

06-25-2015 05:46 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

"We know that God doesn't hear the prayers of a sinner". This comment was presented uncritically by the gospel narrator in John 9:31. So, how then does the sinner get saved? I say, because of the High Priest, who is sinless, and whose righteousness intervenes by God's mercy. Jesus is of course the true and great High Priest who's entered into heaven and who there intercedes for us. Hebrews goes into this in some detail, and even says that "He always lives to intercede for us." (7:25)

All the prayers and declarations of the pious sinners in the Psalms, which RecV footnotes typically dismiss as "natural" and "fallen", are actually opportunities for Jesus to intercede. He didn't sin, but when we the sinners confess and repent, Jesus Himself brings these declarations, prayers and words on our behalf before the Father's throne, and because of His purity, the Father hears and responds. Thus the Father can save us, even to the uttermost. And it was in this vein, I believe, that Paul repeatedly encouraged the NT saints to exercise themselves in the Psalms, even calling them "the word of Christ" (Col 3:16). Of themselves the words of the psalmist, who was admittedly a sinner, are indeed low, and natural, and vain. But because of God's mercy in Christ Jesus they become the vehicles whereby we sinners may come to God through faith and receive mercy and timely help. I therefore strongly disagree with WL's pejorative characterization of the book's contents. "Man does not live by bread alone, but by every word which proceeds out of the mouth of God." Amen.

06-24-2015 04:56 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

... the Psalms as spiritual commentaries were clearly accepted and used by the NT writers, and by Jesus Himself. For example, "You are gods" from Psalm 82, quoted by Jesus to the Jewish antagonists. They were gods, to whom the word of God came (John 10:35), but they died like men, because they disobeyed and corrupted the commands (Psa 82:7). They fell like every other corrupt ruler. Jesus' use of scripture turned the charge back against the Jews: they'd claimed Jesus blasphemed, but He said that His works showed that He was one with the Father (John 10:25,37,38)... "You are gods" was merely a prelude to "you will die like men".

This scene in John chapter 10 is a good example: the writer of the fourth gospel was intimately acquainted with the OT scriptures, as were Jesus and His opposers. So when Jesus quoted Psalm 82, "I said, 'You are gods'", everyone was probably expected to remember the rest of the sentence, which hadn't been quoted: "...but you will die like men." But what happened over millennia, and which amplified with the Great Schism and then the Protestant Reformation and the subsequent Protestant splinterings like British Brethren and Watchman Nee's Little Flock and Witness Lee's Lord's Recovery, is a tendency for the present Christian apologist to fixate upon the so-called New Testament revelation and dismiss, downplay, or ignore the extant scriptures of Jesus' time. The unbalanced RecV Bible, for instance, will have a page of footnotes devoted to a verse in Ephesians or Colossians, and almost nothing, maybe a cross-reference or two, in a page of Psalms.

And when we read a NT passage like the one in John 10 where Jesus was confronted by the religionists, we'll then gloss over His reply because it was from a psalm, which according to today's Paul (WL) was full of fallen men's concepts, and therefore we miss the whole point of the conversation! Why did Jesus' quoted reply point to multiple gods - "I said, 'You are gods'"? Well, it didn't at all: both He and His antagonists knew that there was only one God of Israel. In fact, Jesus taught that it was central to the "greatest commandment" (Matt. 22:36-40). So, then why the quote of "gods"? Perhaps because those "gods (who died like men)" were not "gods", or "God" at all, but had been servants who were disobedient to God's commandments to which they'd been entrusted, as were the Jewish judges facing Him at that very moment. And Jesus furthermore said in the same section that His works clearly showed His obedience to His Father in heaven, just as their refusal of Him showed their disobedience.

But we often missed all this because we were unfamiliar with source text, i.e. the OT. We were Christians, or in Lee's parlance, "New Testament believers", so we focused on the NT, the Christian commentary of the apostle Paul, or today's Paul (WL), the so-called minister of the age, and supposedly God's present oracle. Witness Lee effectively told us not to waste our time with the Psalms; stick with the "high peak truths", he said, and with the "heart of the divine revelation": Galatians, Ephesians, Colossians, Philippians. The result is that we became shallow, ignorant, vain, and puffed up; empty sounding brass, full of teachings but with no love or good works. Just like those who were arguing with Jesus in John chapter 10. They knew neither God nor scripture.

(the above, especially the last paragraph, only pertains to my growing up Protestant and being in the LC for 6 years, and doesn't apply to many balanced and careful Christian teachers out there, and those who follow them. And Lee may have covered "...you will die like men" in his expositions of John 10 and Psalm 82. But my point still remains.)

06-24-2015 04:21 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

... it makes sense that the Psalms can at one moment be soaring within those realms of spiritualization, and then be crying to God to slay my enemies, and being happy bashing babies against the rocks.

I understand why Lee couldn't accept all of the Psalms. You point out NT support of the Psalms, which is clearly true. But much of it, okay some of it -- too much of it -- in the Psalms, strikes as being anti-Christ; in that it's not like Christ found in the NT.

As far as I know, the only religious group still bashing babies against the rocks is the ISIL, or ISIS, or IS, or whatever they're known as. Most other religions have moved away from that kind of behavior. And yes, arguably a lot of OT stuff is not like the Christ found in the NT. David shouldn't have thrown that rock at Goliath, right? I mean, he should have turned the other cheek. And when the lion and the bear came to take his sheep, he should have offered them two! That was Jesus' teaching, clearly: "When they take you a mile, go with them two, when a man takes your cloak, offer him your shirt." So David could have been more generous in offering up the fruits of his flock.

But wait a minute - Jesus said that the shepherd lays down his life for the sheep, while the hireling runs away. So maybe David should have lain down in front of the bear or the lion and offered himself as a tasty snack, instead of fighting with them. That would have been the Christian thing to do, clearly.

Of course, the above is humor, or my version of it. In reality, there's this word called "discernment"... we're supposed to have some when we read the Bible. Otherwise we invent funny religions, or join people who have. And spiritualizing, or allegorizing, the OT text certainly takes discernment. If you lack a necessary measure, I suggest two options: first is to find someone who has it, and second is to read the ancients. Probably your first option, the person with discernment, is reading the ancients anyway.

Lee never bothered to read the ancients because he felt that Nee had read everything there was to read, so why bother? But if he'd read the ancients, he would have found that they followed the NT lead by using Psalms as a source of inspiration into divine and mystical realms. Instead, Lee created his "God's NT economy" template, a bowdlerized monstrosity that when superimposed upon the scriptures allowed him to determine which were "natural" and which were "revelatory". And the vast majority of the Psalms were dismissed as the former. Usually it was only where NT usage forced him that Lee admitted some revelation of Jesus Christ.

06-23-2015 08:06 PM

awareness

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

Unfortunately my presentational skills aren't up to the job, . . .

Maybe for this task. But in general you do a right spiffy job of it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

. . . but I wanted to put out an idea: Look at the Psalms as a kind of spiritualization of the historical narrative, ...

Well that makes sense. Then it makes sense that the Psalms can at one moment be soaring within those realms of spiritualization, and then be crying to God to slay my enemies, and being happy bashing babies against the rocks.

I understand why Lee couldn't accept all of the Psalms. You point out NT support of the Psalms, which is clearly true. But much of it, okay some of it -- too much of it -- in the Psalms, strikes as being anti-Christ; in that it's not like Christ found in the NT.

The way I see OT support in the NT is: what else did they have to go on? They were far worse off than we are today, with our limited materials and documentation, to go on. And we're bad off.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

which spiritualization was picked up and amplified by the NT writers. A classic example is of Melchizedek. A historical character, briefly inserted into the narrative of events. Then the psalmist gives it a kind of mystical spin: "You are a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek." The NT writer says, "Hey! This is Christ!" and then amplifies it.

Interesting that Melchizedek was the Pagan King Priest of Salem -- "He was priest of God Most High." But he didn't know the right name for God. Did Abram set him straight, chide him, and condemn him to hell so to speak, for calling God El Elyon, and not Yahweh? No! "Abram gave him a tenth of everything."

We should learn by this, to be careful how we judge and treat others, even those that don't believe like us, or at all ... even pagans, or worse, Unitarian Universalists

... Abram, the father of faith, wasn't dogmatic, so maybe we shouldn't be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

We don't know how much of David's original work remains . . .

As I was saying. We have only what we have. So we're left guessing. And we, and Lee, do and did plenty of that. A'guessing here, a'guessing there, everywhere a'guessing. Even about the Psalms.

Can we really blame Lee for his approach to the Psalms? He was guessing just like the rest of us. The most we can say about Lee, or the worst, is that he was nothing special. In the end he was just like the rest of us ... but with an extraordinary sense of grandiose about himself.

And if we wouldn't have fallen for it Lee would have been just another China man come to America -- which oddly enough he was -- running away from messing in his nest in Taiwan, leaving carnage, if not crimes, in his wake.

06-23-2015 05:51 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

06-08-2015 05:25 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

I may be overstretching here, and if someone has a RecV handy, or a Life-Study, please feel free to correct me. But I think there's something interesting in the way that Goliath underestimated David, and trusted his own strength, and how WL likewise trusted his "God's economy" template and dismissed scriptures as low, natural, and fallen.

On an outward sense, Goliath was huge and terrifying. Saul told David that he (David) was just a boy, and Goliath was a huge man who had been a warrior for years.

Quote:

1 Samuel 17:33 Saul replied, "You are not able to go out against this Philistine and fight him; you are only a young man, and he has been a warrior from his youth."

But David had a secret weapon: speed. When Saul began to move, David didn't stand his ground, or run away, but began moving toward Goliath at a rapid rate of speed. The speed which had allowed David to survive close-in fighting with a lion and a bear (see David's reply to Saul in 1 Sam 17:34-36) allowed him to come at Goliath so quickly that Goliath had to slow down to make adjustments. David was moving too fast! So Goliath had to slow down, in anticipation to meet the onrushing boy, and "boom!" by the time the stone flew he was too close, and entirely too slow. Game over.

Now, here's a possible parallel: When the psalmist wrote, "You send your command to the earth; Your word runs swiftly" in Psalm 147, did WL see the connection to Jesus, functioning there on earth, under the Father's authority? Did he see that the moment that Jesus said, "Let it be done", the centurion's servant was healed? (Matt 8:13). The centurion had told Jesus, "I also am a man under authority, and have servants under me, and when I tell one Go, he goes, or Come, he comes, or Do this, and he does it"; did WL also sense how "Thy word runs swiftly" at Jesus' command? Incredible!

Please understand that I'm not reveling in some arcane, subjective assessment of Hebrew poetry, compared to word selection in the Greek NT. Nor am I fixated on bashing WL. But it's probably fair to say that WL was mistaken, to dismiss of the word of God as inadequate to stand up to his hermeneutic. Somebody please show me a RecV cross-reference from Psalm 147 to Matthew 8 and I'll stand down.

If this appraisal has been too caustic or derisive I apologize. Unfortunately I tend to glory in my own thinking, just as WL seemingly fell prey to his. But I assert that there are treasures beyond compare here before us, which to WL were just blank spaces. It was like he was flying over the Gobi Desert at 30,000 feet, and looked down and just saw emptiness. If you don't get what I'm saying, look at the RecV Psalms: page after nearly blank page, with few footnotes or references, interspersed with derogatory comments on its lack of "divine revelation". Compare that to his RecV Ephesians, where one verse might get a page of footnotes! Talk about misaiming, or unbalance... and Paul had even encouraged the Ephesians to sing the Psalms... go figure... I certainly can't.

My time in the LC was part of my "goodly heritage", and it colors my thinking. But when one considers its teachings next to the plain words of scripture, they seem quite inadequate to guide.

06-04-2015 04:08 PM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Like Goliath underestimating the young lad David standing before him, so I think that WL did with the prophetic word of God he was considering. He felt "I will obey your will" was low, and natural. But what if Jesus inhabited this word? We know that Jesus' neighbors disrespected Him when He returned home, and we know that His brothers mocked Him.

Likewise WL thought these OT words common and unimpressive. But what is the height, the depth, the breadth and length if Jesus inhabits a word?

Goliath laughed with disdain, and cursed at the "stripling" that faced him. It was the last thing he said. Likewise Satan underestimated the man Jesus, until it was too late. We should never consider the word of God as low or natural, or of little or no account.

"Don't be like a horse or mule, that has no understanding at all. But their mouths must be held by the bridle or bit, or they won't come near to You." Psalm 32:9

06-04-2015 04:30 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Psalm 119:60 says, "I will not delay to obey your commands." WL would tell us that nobody could keep that word. To which I respond, "In whom, then, should we believe?" If nobody could keep the commands of God, where then is our hope?

No; the hope of the Christian believer is in Jesus Christ, born of a woman, born under law, who though in the flesh of sin, did not hesitate to obey the Father's will, all the way up to and including the death of the cross. This is our faith, our hope.

I don't know what gospel WL preached if he ignored the incarnated Word to that degree. Maybe he was, ironically, pushing a gospel of self-reliance: first he showed us the OT prophet unable to fulfill the word, then he declared that the "NT believer" could do it, according to "God's New Testament economy". In the middle of the narrative, however, was a gaping hole, where Jesus Christ was supposed to be seen. For all the talk about incarnation, and about the "humanity of Jesus", when given the opportunity to see a very human Jesus portrayed in the OT text, WL passed.

05-11-2015 09:18 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

So how to (subjectively) interpret these highly poetic texts? .... What I was faintly seeing, emerging from the text was the suggestive idea that they're so personal, and therefore so universal, that there is a kind of recursive "folding-over" in the text and I was publicly wondering where it stopped, if at all? Who's speaking here - the psalmist, or the Holy Spirit, or the Christ, or the "richly indwelling word" in the New Testament believer? If it is arguably all of them, then why stop at the edges of Christianity? Why not keep going on, forever?

The problem with this statement today is that it doesn't capture my experience at all. Secondly, what is someone else to make of it, who didn't have my own experience of "enjoying God in His word"? There's an open-ended nature to poetry, and an invitation to go beyond the borders of the rational, but when you try to rationalize your experience, what have you done except place new boundaries and borders? Put another way: I began this thread because I resented WL circumscribing the Psalms with his interpretations. How then do I begin to circumscribe it with my own descriptions of what is and is not?

So I don't disavow the previous post but it's probably of little utility. The word itself is before us, beckoning us into God, but any issue of the "going in" will probably found only in transformed living, and not in our verbiage. We have Paul's words before us, and others', and the gospel testimonies, but these words indicate sufficiently transformed and transformative behavior to merit attention. Of themselves I suspect that mine can't and don't.

We were so fooled by WL that we thought fixation on his verbiage would propel us into God's kingdom. Why think that my own ruminations, however heartfelt, might be exempt? So by all means ignore my words if you will, and likewise those of WL, but fixate yourself unyieldingly upon the words of God, as pertaining to His Christ in glory. And I suspect that this includes the Psalms as well, far more than WL let on. It's "the mind of Christ" that now dwells within us, allowing us to see the Father's house as Christ, though yet on earth, saw it. Because the prophetic words were written by men under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and Jesus indicated repeatedly that they were concerning Him.

So forget my hypothetical "recursive, post-Christian world", forget WL's templates and interpretive schemes, and let the Holy Spirit guide you in. The holy word is the vehicle for the Holy Spirit to reveal God's Son in us.

05-07-2015 05:55 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by OBW

The post-Christian. If that means that there are no more Christians, then we have a problem. But the term generally means something like the visible testimony of Christianity changes sufficiently that it no longer resembles the thing that is currently called Christianity. We may have the best doctrines (collectively) and think we are on the path. But we are going nowhere except on a journey being rapidly expelled from the mouth of God. (Not pointing fingers. I see myself going on that same journey as well.)

I think we've clearly established the NT reception of Psalms. They're part and parcel of God's speaking to fallen man, "concerning His Son, Jesus Christ" (Romans 1:3). And nowhere does the NT invite us to dismiss them, even in part, as the concepts of fallen men.

But they're poetry; they're ecstatic utterances. It becomes problematic, attempting to go beyond the strict usage of the NT; even to do a kind of quasi-systematic, "thematic" attempt. Because of the subjective and personal nature of the writings they're like Rorschach tests: we see what we want to see. The writer of the Epistle to the Hebrews saw the verse, "Your throne, O God, is forever" and said, "This is Jesus". Wow - I bet that rattled some skulls. But if I go see angels and demons whizzing around in the text it's probably a distraction at best. Who's helped by my visions? I really don't want to start a new church or new church movement.

So how to (subjectively) interpret these highly poetic texts? Or, why even try? Well, they invite us, for one. "Man doesn't live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God." The word itself is a lamp unto our feet - it guides us home. So we peer, and ponder, and wonder as shapes dimly emerge from the text. "We see, darkly" indeed. What I was faintly seeing, emerging from the text was the suggestive idea that they're so personal, and therefore so universal, that there is a kind of recursive "folding-over" in the text and I was publicly wondering where it stopped, if at all? Who's speaking here - the psalmist, or the Holy Spirit, or the Christ, or the "richly indwelling word" in the New Testament believer? If it is arguably all of them, then why stop at the edges of Christianity? Why not keep going on, forever?

"I come to do Your will, O God" was uttered by the prophet in oracular ecstasy, and pointed to the fulfillment by God's Christ. But anyone doing God's will can partake of this word. I'm bound by the history of my journey: I'm a Protestant and son of Protestants, a card-carrying American evangelical. But I'm becoming less limited by the creeds of my forebears and more freed by the images emerging from the text. Why presuppose the notion that "anyone who does God's will" is bound by Protestant creeds and theology as I am?

"When did we do your will?" ask the astonished guests. "Whenever you did it to the least of these my brothers" is the answer. If you give a cup of water to a prophet you get a prophet's reward. It doesn't say that only Protestants who give a cup of cold water will be blessed.

God is bigger than we are, and He's arguably bigger than our ideas. So the words of faith, trust, hope, and obedience, while pointing to God's Christ the Christian "NT believer" of WL's Psalms footnotes, are not dependent upon NT theology for substance. They certainly aren't framed by our understanding! At best they invite us to participate. "Be filled in Spirit by singing" as Paul wrote to the Ephesians. And as these "words of Christ" begin to dwell in us richly, they whisper to us of realities beyond, and we begin to gaze in wonderment; our eyes leave the earth, and look up. The text is inviting us to join God.

Yet, when Jesus said, "You will see the heavens open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of Man", what did He expect us to see? "The (LC) church", said WL; "which is the house of God". Angels ascending and descending are passed off by WL as "much traffic". The open heavens themselves are essentially ignored. Perhaps I (subjectively) want to run shouting after the text, "My Father, my Father, the horses and chariots of Israel!!" When the heavens open before me, I see what I want to see, not what WL wanted me to see. But at the same time I admit that a) it is subjective, b) it is provisional, and c) it ultimately awaits the proving of God.

I accept that. The day awaits.

05-07-2015 05:05 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by OBW

I see so much where the study starts with the truth in something like the Psalms and then it never gets to what does it mean for me today. And without that, it isn't worth much.

I am less lost in the clouds, but often lost in the analysis. Not much different until I actually put some of this into practice.

Maybe tomorrow.

One thing the analysis does, right off the bat, is make me resistant to poor teaching. Lord knows there's enough of that. So that helps. I've got enough problems already, without being dragged into the ditch by someone's confidence game (see under, "Lee, Witness").

Secondly I've enjoyed doing analysis as part of an ongoing conversation, or discussion, because it helps to be corrected by others, and hear what others think, as well. And it even helps when some of the correction seems a bit thin. I remember one unregistered guest who said I'd gone way off the right path, with my thinking. And perhaps I had. But the guest never addressed or even acknowledged the verses that I'd been examining. I found that to be rather telling. It was encouraging, actually, like the Holy Spirit was saying, "Keep going."

And occasionally it comes into my conversations at work and home and church. My ideas and perceptions sometimes seem helpful to others, in untangling the knots that bind us all. So it always encourages me to have something useful for others. I mean, that's what it's all about: helping others. If I just please myself, that surely wouldn't please God. It must have utility or it's nothing.

And lastly, we have the promise: "Seek and ye shall find". My seeking is of itself, as an activity, a vain affair. But God has promised us that we'll find. Therefore, I keep seeking.

Notice that the Psalms are very much in the here and now: "Let a righteous man strike me—that is a kindness; let him rebuke me—that is oil on my head." (Psalm 141:5). The Psalms were written when the battle raged. I'm not sure how much of Psalm 3 was actually composed when David was hiding in a cave, with his son Absalom and the princes on the warpath. But it is very focused on the moment. It's within the context of a God who is in heaven, who has promised and who functions, at least in part, through the "invisible host". But "Save me, O God" is not the sweet bye-and-bye. It is today. "Today, if you hear His voice, do not refuse it" (cf Psa 95:7-11; Heb 3:15).

05-07-2015 04:49 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

That's why I got so indignant when WL dismissed them as the "fallen natural concepts" of a sinner. Unbelievable. Simply shocking.

Of course I over-reacted. I always do. I write myself into an emotional state, then think that somehow my emotional state matches reality. It does not, and cannot. So forgive me for publicly hyperventilating.

Still, the NT reception of the Psalms seems fairly consistent, and WL departed from that, even radically. So it's right to question it. But to get all "huffy" about it is not my job, obviously.

05-06-2015 01:20 PM

OBW

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

I sort of doubt that. And I was not complaining about this thread. But I see so much where the study starts with the truth in something like the Psalms and then it never gets to what does it mean for me today. And without that, it isn't worth much.

I am less lost in the clouds, but often lost in the analysis. Not much different until I actually put some of this into practice.

Maybe tomorrow.

05-06-2015 11:30 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by OBW

Well I can't do the idea justice and perhaps I shouldn't have even tried. I certainly wasn't clear.

I am a sinner, redeemed and reborn. Jesus is and remains the "Lamb of God." This is my immutable fact as a Protestant evangelical fundamentalist, for lack of a better label. 'Christian' OK, fine.

But imagine a world beyond this in which there is no sin, death, pain, sorrow, shame, and confusion. Failure isn't known. But these words still fit! Incredible! The blessing and praise and honor and glory. The declarations "I will obey Your will" still stand as true and real. All that kind of stuff.

So I was looking at it not as a pious Jew or WL's "New Testament believer" but as if it were reality itself, come to us in the person of the Son of God. All my cultural "Christian" baggage isn't rendered moot, but rather in the brightness of His glory my religious background is rendered irrelevant. Sometimes I can just "feel" the Spirit of reality in these words. I don't know how to express it. But even my "Christianity" fades away.

That's why I got so indignant when WL dismissed them as the "fallen natural concepts" of a sinner. Unbelievable. Simply shocking.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OBW

This is where I see the highly spiritual view of the Psalms as a potential hook. Oh, everything you speak of is there. But it is not just about the kingdom to come. If it is not informing this life, then we have missed its impact. That is one of the reasons that I have tended to hold back from bible studies on Revelation. Too much speculation about the future and no desire to consider today. That is not the fault of Revelation, but those who study it in that manner.

Well it's pretty clear by now that I'm a "lost in the clouds" type, and I can tell you my living doesn't match my vision at all. But I try to be merciful to others, and Jesus said if you show mercy to others, then God will be merciful to you. That's my best hope.

But visions and dreams have this: they call us. Beyond ourselves, our struggles, our situations and considerations. Moses still had to go back to Egypt. He had to confront Pharoah and lead the people out. But the vision on the back side of the mountain propelled him, and sustained him. In the Psalms I see Christ calling, speaking, declaring. It is a powerful attention-getter. I certainly hope that in that day, I will be found to have followed that voice, and to have obeyed.

05-06-2015 11:19 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lisbon

WL was not that smart so could not do that much till WN left the scene. But freed, he became the Little General.

We can see why WL loved the "ground of the church" so much. It gave him unfettered access to the lives and pockets of the parishioners. Just like with WN, who could come back from shame and exile in the late-1940s and promote (demand?) the "handing over" of everything to "the church". And I guess WN initially made an example for everyone by handing over all his possessions to himself. (A little humor, there)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lisbon

He figured out a lot of things in his head but I doubt he had any revelation at all. I just don't think our God gives big revelations to the wicked.

Well the Psalms exposed this lack of revelation like nothing else that I have seen. Matthew 21:44 says, "Anyone who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; anyone on whom it falls will be crushed." WL tried to dismiss the Psalms as natural writings but instead they crushed and spit out his ministry like so much "natural" dust. It was a completely failed exegesis in my view.

05-06-2015 07:58 AM

Lisbon

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by OBW

The funny thing about this argument is that even we "rot in the grave" until the resurrection. So David is in no worse position than we are. And unless there was truly a different covenant in that day (which there was), not a single one of them have any hope for the future. None of them were righteous and none were without sin, therefore, according to Lee, they would all "rot in the grave." I guess he must mean forever. Even Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, etc. But they did have a hope. And it was not simply that the Messiah would come an save those who live after them at the time of the Messiah or after. That is no hope at all if it only resides in those who are as yet unborn.

I came into the LC the fall of 72, and officially Jan 1 73. I came in much the result of having read WN. I think I remember WN saying if you are wrong with money you are wrong with everything. Some of you well read posters can agree with this or maybe it was Ben Franklin. It certainly didn't originate with me. I do think it's right. So of course what I am coming to is that WL was wrong with money so..... My hearing is that WL had money troubles that people knew about at least back in the 50's. It seems very likely that he is traveling 6000 miles to Seattle in 1962 to sell Chinese menswear to help his situation monetarily. But it didn't work. This venture was well hidden in the DFW area however a close friend of mine was in Elden and as others have posted help try to salvage something of this venture although they were not successful. They probably ended up at Goodwill.

After this came Day Star. What a can of worms. I lost $1000, no big deal, but others lost their life's savings. Then tennis rackets, just lost $250 there. Then church chairs. To me it's not that easy to place the blame and loss on these foregoing but when we gets to selling the ministry, that's pretty easy.
Since around 1975 there have been around 4000 in attendance at the winter and summer trainings. Unless my arithmetic has gone to you know where, that comes out to 32 million dollars without including the video trainings and books. This kind of money is in the Paul Crouch-Jimmie Swaggart arena.

And of course this isn't all. There's the dumping of dozens of "co-workers" which actually he had none.

WL was not that smart so could not do that much till WN left the scene. But freed, he became the Little General. He figured out a lot of things in his head but I doubt he had any revelation at all. I just don't think our God gives big revelations to the wicked.

He had a good cover which he maintained til death
Lisbon

05-06-2015 07:56 AM

OBW

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

It has been slowly dawning on me that even as I speak of a post-Protestant world today, I could also speak of a reality in which "Christianity" itself is no more. Paul told the crowd that he was a Pharisee of Pharisees (Acts 23:6). But that was an acknowledgment of his journey through time and space and human culture. But Paul wasn't looking back; he was headed for the stars. His home was in the Father's house. And this "house", or "family" or "kingdom" is not merely a Christian realm. Rather the Christian realm, on earth today, allows us access to it. But it is not itself exclusively Christian. Yes Christ is enthroned as Head over all, but if you look at the denizens of the open heavens (e.g. John 1:51 - "you will see heaven opened") you slowly realize that the Christian faith is pointing at them. "You shall be like angels in heaven" in Matt 22:30 is not exclusively pertaining to the issues of marrying and being given in marriage, but rather the issues of marrying and being given in marriage are subsumed by the experience of "being like an angel in heaven".

And the Psalms give voice to this. In exquisite and magisterial detail they portray this. Yes they were penned by frail mortals who ultimately faltered, fell, and lay still, yet the voice is from heaven. "Your word O LORD is eternal; it stands firm in the heavens. Your faithfulness continues to all generations" (Psalm 119:89). When the angel told Mary, "No word from God will ever fail" (Luke 1:37), he was declaring something that included but transcended all of Jewishness, Christianity, and even humanity. This is something that's true at all times, and in all ways that truth can exist. Christianity certainly points to it, and draws from it, but ultimately it is not dependent upon Christian understanding. It just is. The angel was neither a Jewish angel nor a Christian one; merely a vessel bringing something forth from the presence of the eternal God. In their purest form the Psalms draw us deeper into this realm, a realm which includes WL's Christian "New Testament believer", the psalmist, certainly Jesus Christ(!), the angels, and everything that lives and breathes. Even the heavens declare the glory of God (Psalm 19:1). There is a tremendous universal character and aspiration here: to orient oneself to the Source, to praise and thank and bless and obey. The Christian experience, through our faith in the Person of Jesus Christ, allows us full access to this. But we shouldn't be so presumptuous to think that we, and our experiences, are the "center and the meaning of the universe". At least I'm not comfortable declaring this. I sense that God is bigger than my theological notions.

I just lost 30 minutes of work because despite checking the "keep me logged in" button (or thinking I did), I got logged out. Trying again.

I hear a lot these days about post-Protestantism, post-evangelicalism, and even post-Christianity.

Seems that post-Protestantism should not be a bad thing. End the protest. Recognize that we are the body of Christ. Understand that the RCC is actually Christian. Of course that still leaves us all thinking that our particular way is more right than all others. Otherwise we would change.

Post-evangelicalism is more troublesome for many of us because we think that the best collection of doctrines resides there. But doctrines don't save. When we arrive at the judgement seat, some will probably say "Lord, Lord, did we not hold to the best doctrines" to which we may hear either "so what" or "best? really?" My conclusion of late is that the best worship may not be within evangelicalism. And the best understanding of the Christian live may not be within evangelicalism. They are too concerned with shoving everyone out the door to "preach the gospel." And if you are not into that, the rhetoric would suggest that you are a sub-par Christian.

But if Jesus railed on the teachers of the law, and Paul laid out guidelines for the lives of those who would be elders, deacons, teachers, etc., then why should we, who all think that everything applies equally to us, think that we should not be the same? Instead we (and even some of our leaders) refuse to "go through the motions" to correct their sins. That is "works." Instead we take grace for our failures (and it is there for that purpose). We think we are going to arrive at anything when we reject even "trying" to start on the journey. Maybe those poor liturgicals are just "doing it in themselves." But at least they started on the journey. Not at least trying is to not move down the road.

The post-Christian. If that means that there are no more Christians, then we have a problem. But the term generally means something like the visible testimony of Christianity changes sufficiently that it no longer resembles the thing that is currently called Christianity. We may have the best doctrines (collectively) and think we are on the path. But we are going nowhere except on a journey being rapidly expelled from the mouth of God. (Not pointing fingers. I see myself going on that same journey as well.)

We have all the doctrines. But maybe the ones who follow a confessional path to salvation, and worship in a more ancient way have a better lock on practice. They don't just teach great stuff. The teach the important stuff — Christ died for our sins; obedience; and so on — and eventually you come to believe. And in the process you actually live as Christ commanded. We excuse our failures and "take the blood" and just go on our merry way.

This is where I see the highly spiritual view of the Psalms as a potential hook. Oh, everything you speak of is there. But it is not just about the kingdom to come. If it is not informing this life, then we have missed its impact. That is one of the reasons that I have tended to hold back from bible studies on Revelation. Too much speculation about the future and no desire to consider today. That is not the fault of Revelation, but those who study it in that manner.

Yes, we need to orient ourselves to the source. But too often our rhetoric ends there. If we are oriented to the source, our lives should be different. But that is seldom talked about. We get all wrapped up in the feelings of being spiritual. If we get oriented to the source, we should at least try. And if we don't try, we will never arrive. That leaves the liturgicals with their works as the only ones who have a chance of arriving.

I like the Psalms. They are 150 examples of written prayers. They come from many different aspects of life. When things are up and when things are down. When we have sinned woefully. When enemies are camped outside our city. And when enemies have been vanquished. Yet God is the same God in all. "Hear my cry, Oh Lord." "Have mercy on me, Oh God." "I will sing of the mercies of the Lord." "Your word is a lamp to my feet." And so on.

Maybe saying that it is the "Word of Christ" is not always accurate. But it is always a picture of God in some way. Whether in prophetic form, or in describing the things that God does for us, or in the character of God. And some are instructive concerning the way in which we are to go. None are simply natural man whining with no spiritual value.

05-06-2015 04:59 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

Those very verses [Psalm 133] were pray-read in the meetings, to support the Flow of Oneness that Mel Porter, the lead elder in the church in Ft. Lauderdale, came back from Anaheim with.

The Flow of Oneness was supported with Rev. 22:1. It was said that the river of life, carried the authority of the throne, to the apostle on the earth: Witness Lee.

And Lee was likened to Aaron in Psalms 133. It was said. that, the anointing came down from Lee, thru the elders, and finally, to the "garments," or us little ones.

"I'm Witness Lee - I'm the meaning of the universe;

I'm Witness Lee - I'm the meaning of the universe."

This little man fufills God's plan,

He's the center and the meaning of the universe.

(To the tune of "O I'm a man", with apologies.)

The irony here, and one of many, is that WL said that David was being ego-centric: that David was thinking that the Holy and Righteous God of heaven paid attention to him, a sinner, and declared that God had saved him out of death (see e.g. 34:4); WL's commentary said that David saved himself and that David's fallen natural concepts had ascribed this to God's intervention (see accompanying RecV footnotes). Yet when WL fortuitously came into the foment of the "Jesus Movement" of the 1960s, he skimmed off a few hundred unsuspecting young souls as his own personal acolytes, and set about anointing himself as the center of God's move on the earth today. Fallen human ego, much?

Quote:

Originally Posted by OBW

The funny thing about this argument is that even we "rot in the grave" until the resurrection. So David is in no worse position than we are. And unless there was truly a different covenant in that day (which there was), not a single one of them have any hope for the future... Even Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, etc. But they did have a hope. And it was not simply that the Messiah would come an save those who live after them at the time of the Messiah or after. That is no hope at all if it only resides in those who are as yet unborn.

Eventually I realized that what I found so deeply appealing about the Psalms was their universal character. The psalmist makes a bold declaration of piety: "I desire to do your will, my God; your law is within my heart." (Psa 40:8). But this declaration is not merely David's ego-centric fallen human nature, or Jewish religious culture, or WL's "New Testament believer", although arguably all three can be seen. But it's drawn Jews and Christians for centuries because of its transcendent nature: it may be embodied in the Christ, but even though it was fulfilled in Him ("Then he said, 'Here I am, I have come to do your will.'" [Heb 10:9]) it speaks to and of the aspirations of all creation.

Quote:

Revelation 5:13

Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!"

05-05-2015 02:48 PM

OBW

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

No, WL effectively replied, The Lord didn't hear David's cry for mercy; He didn't accept his prayer. It was vain, because "David's grave remains with us to this day." (see Acts 2:29) God didn't save David, but rather let him rot in the grave.

05-05-2015 05:15 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

The apostle Peter said that even though David declared the word and it was not fulfilled in him, God still used David's word as a prophecy of the coming Seed of David. See Acts 2:29-32.

Contrast this with the "apostle" WL who merely said that David declared the word in vain, and left it at that. It was not up to the New Testament standard, he said. So I ask, which version should WL's "New Testament believers" prefer? And are there other versions or views that also work, here?

Psalm 6:9 says, "The Lord has heard my cry for mercy; the Lord accepts my prayer." No, WL effectively replied, The Lord didn't hear David's cry for mercy; He didn't accept his prayer. It was vain, because "David's grave remains with us to this day." (see Acts 2:29) God didn't save David, but rather let him rot in the grave. (forgive me for being blunt but we're talking about a sinner - David sinned with Uriah and Bathsheba and wasn't a righteous man. WL repeatedly stressed this).

Another approach is to say that David was a type of Christ, and his words provided the framework for the coming Messiah, the coming Seed of David. David as the overcoming king presaged the coming King whose kingdom would never end. Psalm 89:3-4, for example, says, ""I have made a covenant with My chosen; I have sworn to David My servant, I will establish your seed forever And build up your throne to all generations." I believe that this is why the crowds yelled, "Hosanna to the Son of David!" (Matt 21:9) as He entered Jerusalem. They expected His immanent human ascension to glory and kingship, and (finally!!) the end of the hated Idumean (Edomite) Herod. (Could any man have been more despised and feared by the public than Herod was?) Even the opposing Council raised this thought: "This Man will provoke the Romans to act and will take away our place and our nation" (see e.g. John 11:48).

The NT record shows the expectation was already there in captive Judea, which was chafing under the Romans as it had under the Greeks, Assyrians, and Babylonians before them. And the disciples, of course, believed that this expectation was of God's Messiah was fulfilled in none other than Jesus of Nazareth. The crucifixion, death, and resurrection of Jesus were all part of the divine narrative. It is all there, already, in scripture: "My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?" All of it was there: the sufferings, the trial, the shame, the cries, the death. And then the glory that followed. And not just Israel but all of humanity would be redeemed (see e.g. John 11:52).

The disciples as religious Jews clearly believed that the prophets were pointing to the coming Christ. And their role as apostles was therefore to show that the prophets were pointing to Jesus as Christ. So in Acts 2 Peter said, "30 But he [David] was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31 Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay. 32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it."

Even though Peter the Galilean fisherman could see this, the so-called apostle WL could not see David as a prophet pointing to Christ, but rather saw David the fallen sinner pointing to himself, and declaring his own natural concepts of himself vis-a-vis God. I think that I rather prefer Peter's interpretation, here. (Sorry, I guess I'm funny that way.) And Peter is not alone in this: other sections such as Romans 1:4 and Hebrews 5:7 show God hearing the prayers and cries of the righteous Man Jesus and saving Him from the pangs of death, and giving him glory. As does the NT record elsewhere, as well: see for instance the inquiry of the Ethiopian - "Is this man writing of himself, or of someone else?" - I mean, talk about slow pitch softball! Philip knocked that one out of the park (Acts 8:34).

To conclude: the OT prophet points toward the coming Messiah, who the NT apostle then declares is none other than Jesus Christ the Nazarene. WL on the other hand said that the OT prophet (in this case David) was merely pointing to himself. WL's disciples claim that he was an apostle and held "God's oracle", but his own teachings belied this. He looked at scripture and could only see fallen men. He said that there were no righteous men (see e.g. his footnotes in Psalm 1). For some reason, he couldn't see God's Christ.

05-04-2015 10:57 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

Jesus wept not for His sins, but for ours. And the Father listened. So the tears of the psalmist are of themselves vain, but as a preface of the coming Christ they display God's salvation in His Son Jesus, the High Priest of Heaven who intervenes on our behalf...

Yes, Jesus cried strongly, and the Father heard His cries. Similarly, Psalm 6:9 says, "Jehovah has heard my supplication; Jehovah receives my prayer". Yet in covering Psalm 6 WL merely stressed the inadequacy of David's repentance. Nothing here, to WL, indicated the coming Christ.

The Epistle to the Hebrews clearly says that Jesus' cries were heard, and God saved Him from death. The psalmists' strong cries and desire to be saved from death, and the exultation and hope of the same, were found by the indifferent RecV footnote expositor to be absent of any connection. I find this strange.

05-04-2015 05:49 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Psalm 6

6 I am worn out from my groaning.
All night long I flood my bed with weeping
and drench my couch with tears.

7 My eyes grow weak with sorrow;
they fail because of all my foes.

8 Away from me, all you who do evil,
for the Lord has heard my weeping.

9 The Lord has heard my cry for mercy;
the Lord accepts my prayer.

10 All my enemies will be overwhelmed with shame and anguish;
they will turn back and suddenly be put to shame.

It occurred to me that the righteous and holy God doesn't listen to the cries of the unrighteous. Their tears are in vain. Hebrews 12:17 says, "Afterward, as you know, when [Esau] wanted to inherit this blessing, he was rejected. Even though he sought the blessing with tears, he could not change what he had done." The tears of the fallen can't change God's righteous judgment. 2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 1:6 tell of what happened to the angels who sinned. These epistles seem dependent upon the Book of Enoch's description of how the fallen angels of Genesis 6 tried to extricate themselves from punishment, but were denied.

On the other hand, the tears of the righteous avail, before God's throne. Jesus wept not for His sins, but for ours. And the Father listened. So the tears of the psalmist are of themselves vain, but as a preface of the coming Christ they display God's salvation in His Son Jesus, the High Priest of Heaven who intervenes on our behalf.

Peter went outside and wept bitterly (Luke 26:62), which was of itself vain. Only Jesus' intercession - "Peter, I have prayed for you" (Luke 22:32) - could ultimately save him from the darkness of rejection. So when the writer of Hebrews said, (5:7) "Christ, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto Him that was able to save Him from death, and was heard in that He feared," I think that this "strong crying and tears" was not only for Himself, but for the deliverance of Israel and even all humankind. The NT record continually stresses the resurrection of Jesus from the dead as God's vindication of Jesus' obedient human life, and His Father's designation as the Son of God in power (Rom 1:4), and that this resurrection becomes the hope of all humanity, to be likewise saved from death by faith in this One.

Yes, Jesus cried strongly, and the Father heard His cries. Similarly, Psalm 6:9 says, "Jehovah has heard my supplication; Jehovah receives my prayer". Yet in covering Psalm 6 WL merely stressed the inadequacy of David's repentance. Nothing here, to WL, indicated the coming Christ. The Epistle to the Hebrews clearly says that Jesus' cries were heard, and God saved Him from death. The psalmists' strong cries and desire to be saved from death, and the exultation and hope of the same, were found by the indifferent RecV footnote expositor to be absent of any connection. I find this strange.

05-02-2015 01:08 PM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

So when it says that “Jesus, knowing that he had come from God, and that He was to return to God” (John 13:3), was Jesus mistakenly looking back to the house of God? Or rather was He looking ahead?

Jesus was the only One who knew where He came from, and where He was going. The rest of us were lost. He never lost His orientation to the Father. He said, "The Father is always with Me, for I see Him and do His will." (John 8:29)

The others scorned this. No, they insisted, This is a fallen man like us. How can He say that God is His Father? (John 10:33) "Give glory to God - this man is a sinner" (John 9:24). They had lost way of the Father's house, and insisted that this Man was similarly lost. He was a Galilean - didn't they know His mother Mary, and His brothers and sisters? (Matt. 13:56).

To me, it's been similarly discouraging and frustrating to see WL's ministry continually use the text to point to, or orient toward, other things: the church, the 'natural' psalmist, the New Testament believer, and so on, all without seeing Jesus Christ. It is only by seeing Jesus' unyielding orientation to the Father in heaven, that my own orientation gets restored. He is the only way back to the Father's house. But WL put so many other things there, distracting us. We should come to the text, I argue, and "see Him, and live".

Quote:

Numbers 21:8 The LORD said to Moses, "Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live."

John 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

2 Corinthians 4:6 For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of God's glory displayed in the face of Christ.

Hebrews 2:9a But we see Jesus...

05-02-2015 11:53 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by OBW

For Lee to be truly consistent about all of this, then he should have panned Jesus' own prayer in the garden where he asked that he be spared of the agony to come. Seems awfully whiney and natural.

Quote:

Psalm 42 For the director of music. A maskil of the Sons of Korah.

1 As the deer pants for streams of water,
so my soul pants for you, my God.
2 My soul thirsts for God, for the living God.
When can I go and meet with God?
3 My tears have been my food
day and night,
while people say to me all day long,
“Where is your God?”
4 These things I remember
as I pour out my soul:
how I used to go to the house of God
under the protection of the Mighty One
with shouts of joy and praise
among the festive throng.
5 Why, my soul, are you downcast?
Why so disturbed within me?
Put your hope in God,
for I will yet praise him,
my Savior and my God.
6 My soul is downcast within me;
therefore I will remember you
from the land of the Jordan,
the heights of Hermon—from Mount Mizar.
7 Deep calls to deep
in the roar of your waterfalls;
all your waves and breakers
have swept over me.
8 By day the LORD directs his love,
at night his song is with me—
a prayer to the God of my life.
9 I say to God my Rock,
“Why have you forgotten me?
Why must I go about mourning,
oppressed by the enemy?”
10 My bones suffer mortal agony
as my foes taunt me,
saying to me all day long,
“Where is your God?”
11 Why, my soul, are you downcast?
Why so disturbed within me?
Put your hope in God,
for I will yet praise him,
my Savior and my God.

The RecV footnote for verse 4 says, “On the one hand, the psalmist was panting after God (v.1). On the other hand, he was recalling the glorious and pleasant past in his leading of the festal multitude to enjoy God in His house with His people. Actually, this recalling was a departure from his panting after God… We should not allow our considerations and our remembering of our past to distract us from our present enjoyment of god (cf Phil 3:13-14).”

So when it says that “Jesus, knowing that he had come from God, and that He was to return to God” (John 13:3), was Jesus mistakenly looking back to the house of God? Or rather was He looking ahead?

When Paul wrote to Timothy that he remembered the tears of his confession, was he mistakenly looking back? (2 Tim 1:4).

When the Jews put up a rock as a memorial for God's salvation, was that a mistake, as well? (Josh 24:27).

Psalm 137:5,6 says, "If I forget you, O Jerusalem, May my right hand forget her skill. May my tongue cling to the roof of my mouth if I do not remember you, If I do not exalt Jerusalem above my chief joy". Was this also vanity?

Now, we do know that the Lord Jesus taught that once someone put their hand to the plow, not to look back (Luke 9:62). We do remember what happened to Lot's wife, and what happened to the children of Israel who pined for the food of Egypt with their selective memory.

But the psalmist in chapter 42 wasn't daydreaming away from his "present enjoyment of God", as per the footnote. The Psalm's context has placed him outside of the land of promise (see v. 6) and thus he is rightly orienting himself back toward his true home.

What about the boy in Luke 15 who suddenly "came to himself" and lifted his eyes up above the pig trough as he remembered his father's house? Was that a mistake? Should he just have "enjoyed God" there with the carob pods? Or was God calling him back home?

I find WL's assessment of these verses to be quite arbitrarily subjective. Now, the Psalms are indeed poetry, and some interpretive leeway is understood. But I can make a better argument that Jesus was the unique One who remembered His Father's house. The rest of us became pigs. We were lost; we were dead to God. Only when we heard His voice calling us home did we lift up our eyes and turn homeward, again. Only then did we re-orient ourselves back to the Father who waited there for his lost sons, who were dead and now lived again. (Luke 15:23,24).

So if I am looking at the "festive throng" of Psalm 42:4 and make a connection with Hebrews 12:22-24 --

Quote:

But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.…

then I also am making a subjective assessment. But what if my admittedly subjective interpretation is made after "being filled in spirit by singing psalms", per Paul's encouragement in Ephesians 5:18,19? And similarly, what was the basis of WL's subjective assessment of Psalm 42? Enjoyment of any type or stripe? I see no evidence at all. A sort of hurried, disdainful glance is all I can tell from the footnotes. He didn't linger there, like Mary at the grave, waiting for life to return. He just hurried on. He had a ministry to tend to: messages to give and meetings to preside over.

05-01-2015 12:50 PM

OBW

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

So even though Jesus, in agony, quoted Psalm 31 on the cross, when the same psalm was found saying, "Do not let me be put to shame" and "rescue me O God" then its author David was complaining in his distress, according to the RecV footnote, and desiring to avoid suffering, instead of following the NT principle of "living and gaining Christ".

For Lee to be truly consistent about all of this, then he should have panned Jesus' own prayer in the garden where he asked that he be spared of the agony to come. Seems awfully whiney and natural.

05-01-2015 05:27 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Psalm 31:5 says, "Into your hands I commit my spirit; deliver me, LORD, my faithful God." We know from Luke 23:46 that Jesus quoted this: "Jesus called out with a loud voice, 'Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.' When he had said this, he breathed his last."

So even though Jesus, in agony, quoted Psalm 31 on the cross, when the same psalm was found saying, "Do not let me be put to shame" and "rescue me O God" then its author David was complaining in his distress, according to the RecV footnote, and desiring to avoid suffering, instead of following the NT principle of "living and gaining Christ". Hmmm.... seems to be a lot of effort here, expended to avoid seeing the Christ plainly coming into view. And similarly we've seen the RecV footnote panning Psalm 1, which speaks of the blessing to the righteous man. Sorry, folks, no righteous men allowed. Salvation in the NT is rather "unmerited grace to sinners". So the "assembly of the righteous" in Psalm 1:5 is naturally ignored - by definition it can't exist. Because there aren't any righteous, see?

But when Christ is found praising the Father in the midst of the assembly, (Psa 22:22; Heb 2:12), suddenly the interpreter forgets that there wasn't supposed to be an assembly of the righteous! Poof - on cue an assembly appears... likewise Psalm 26:12; 35:18; 40:9,10; 68:26; 107:32; 109:30 and so on. When the argument didn't want an assembly, there wasn't one; but when the argument needed to allow one it magically appeared on cue. How convenient; just like when the psalmist groans or cries in distress he's just complaining, unless of course it's Jesus Christ who's pictured groaning and crying out to the Father, which is of course okay. Disconnect, much?

And so I ask, why can't the LC flock include these words of scripture in their NT economy? Why can't they say, "Thy words were found and I did eat them" to these passages, as with those in Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy? I can think of two reasons: first off, WL discouraged it. So there it is, everyone: the oracle has spoken. Doesn't matter if Paul repeatedly encouraged it. "Nope", goes the reply, "We may profitably 'eat' Paul's recommendations, but we don't have to follow them! We're indeed hearers of his word, even eaters, but certainly not doers! Likewise, when Peter quotes the psalms we can dismiss Peter as being 'low' and lacking vision. Got that? Our 'apostle' WL had the high peak NT vision, like today's Paul (though we'll ignore Paul when necessary) but Peter the ignorant Galilean fisherman who composed it unfortunately didn't have sufficient revelation."

So the LC are willing to ignore Paul and dismiss Peter, if it means to closely follow their own apostle. If WL dismissed the word, then so does the LC. And if he subjectively picked through it, ignoring obvious contradictions arising in his exegeses, then his acolytes also choose that path. Because their oracle has spoken.

Second, suppose that somehow the Blendeds managed to side-step WL's ministry and figured out how to allow the LC flock to profitably exercise their spirits in this text. What then? What if they quietly ignored WL's discouraging words and - surprise, surprise - found the Spirit of God's Christ, there in those scriptures (e.g. Eph 5:18,19)? Well, another threat would soon arise. Then, unfortunately, the gates to dreaded Christianity might open! They might see others, not meeting on the precious ground of locality, who're currently enjoying Christ in the Psalms. What then? The whole foundation for being 'God's particular people' might be undermined. The whole reason for being the LC is to separate from fallen Christianity, right? No bridges allowed to Babylon - none! So if someone is seen profitably enjoying, and ministering to others from their enjoyment in the text of God's word, then the "One Trumpet" edict is in question and the whole edifice totters and shakes. "And the crash of the house was great"... who knows, there might be another Keith Green out there today, singing something like, "Create in me a clean heart, O God" from the Psalms. Then what? What if God was found moving outside of the demarcated "central lane of God's economy"?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rv16...ature=youtu.be

No, better to ignore Paul, dismiss Peter as ignorant, and just hold tightly to the letter of Lee. Ministry uber alles.

04-30-2015 05:03 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

And the weak, frail, mortal human race can now see in Scriptures this One, while yet on earth, in full dependence upon the Father's will and speaking. He was completely dependent and utterly obedient. "He trusted in Him, let Him come down and save Him now" (Psa 22:8; Matt 27:43). The vulnerability of the mortal Christ on earth, which He overcome with faith and trust and hope and obedience, is now a vision beckoning to all those vulnerable creatures who follow.

We are weak, and mortal, because of our venality. The weight of our crimes, both individual and collective, hang heavy. Yet it pleased God that the weight of our sins would be placed on a frail, mortal human body such as our own. One of our own rescued us. And this One was none other than the Lord Jesus Christ, exalted now forevermore.

It seems that the "Processed Triune God" metric of WL somehow sidestepped this. The Incarnated Jehovah superseded the clear and repeated image of a frail, mortal Man. So when the frail mortal man cried out in trouble, in type, in the poetry of psalms, WL dismissed that as vanity.

Quote:

Psalm 31:1
In You, O Jehovah, do I take refuge;

Never let me be put to shame.

Rescue me in Your righteousness.

The RecV footnote says, "In this psalm David speaks of God's saving him from distress. However, God's salvation for the New Testament believers is not mainly from their distress. In His salvation God sustains and strengthens His believers in their distresses that they may live and magnify Christ (Phil. 1:19-21a)."

Yet where is the Father rescuing Jesus Christ from death? This is the one, singular narrative, in which all others find their home. This is the "one ring to rule them all", a la JRR Tolkien. Apart from this, WL's "New Testament believers" have nothing. Yet it is ignored.

Quote:

Psalm 31:9-17

9 Be gracious to me, O Jehovah, for I am in distress. My eye is wasted away with grief, Indeed my soul and body.

10 For my life has been consumed in sorrow, And my years, in sighing. My strength fails because of my iniquity, And my bones have wasted away.

11 Because of all my adversaries, I have become a reproach, And especially so to my neighbors, And something dreaded to my acquaintances; Those who see me on the street flee from me.

12 I am forgotten, like a dead man out of mind; I am like a destroyed vessel.

13 For I hear the slander of many; Terror is on every side. When they take counsel together against me, They scheme to take my life.

14 But I trust in You, O Jehovah; I say, You are my God.

15 My times are in Your hand; Deliver me from the hand of my enemies and from those who pursue me.

16 Cause Your face to shine upon Your servant; Save me in Your lovingkindness.

17 O Jehovah, do not let me be put to shame when I call out to You; Let the wicked be put to shame; let them be silent in Sheol.

The only RecV footnote here was for verse 9. "David's distress included his grief, sorrow, and the reproach of his opposers. The believers today who follow the Lord also suffer much distress, including persecution. In the NT, however, the apostle Paul did not complain about his distress. Rather, he said that all things worked together for his good that he, as one of God's many sons, could be conformed to the image of the firstborn Son of God."

I find this assessment to be rather subjective. In the Gospel of John, Jesus said, "Now my soul is troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save Me out of this hour. But for this reason I have come to this hour." (v.27)

What? Jesus was troubled?

And, Jesus wept? (11:35)

Jesus groaned? "He was deeply moved in spirit and troubled"? (11:32, NIV)

"Jesus, once more deeply moved, came to the tomb." (11:38, NIV).

These few gospel fragments show the inner life being revealed. In actuality, the inner life was continually poured out before the Father in heaven. But it was done typically in secret, behind the proverbial "closed door" (e.g. Matt 6:6; see also Mark 1:35, Luke 5:16). Occasionally the disciples got witness of that - "And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground." (Luke 22:44 NIV)

Yet what was He praying? Was He praying Paul's epistles? Here is the RecV footnote on Psalm 29: "David's prayer and praise in this psalm is too much in the material and physical realm and cannot compare with the prayer and praise in the New Testament"

Oh, really? So if Paul, in the New Testament, encouraged the "word of Christ to dwell in you richly, in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs," then that should be rather the NT prayers and blessings that now compose the body of the "word of Christ"? Do you think Paul actually wanted us to take the Psalms out of the repertoire and simply replace them with his own writings? WL seems hopeful that this is the case. I disagree. This seems to be some kind of sleight-of-hand trick: the NT writer recommends the OT writings to dwell in you richly, but the NT expositor WL says, "Don't bother. Stick with the NT. It's much better." But did the actual NT writings in any way promote or suggest that idea? I say, quite the contrary.

Quote:

Romans 8:3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh,

When WL read the Psalms he certainly saw the "weak flesh" and the "troubled soul" but he missed its typification of the Seed of David, the Son of Man, the coming prophesied Messiah. Even though the NT constantly alludes to this, WL conceded it only when absolutely necessary. It apparently wasn't helpful to his "Processed Triune God" and "New Testament Economy" metrics.

I repeat that WL isn't entirely to blame for this exegetical mess. I grew up in Protestantism, where the viability of the NT was taken for granted, and its constant appeals to the OT were supposedly safe to ignore. The NT was scripture, and portrayed Christ. The OT, on the other hand, seemed to talk about the Jews, history, the law (which was now rendered moot by the age of grace), etc. It was useful for some background, if you really wanted to pursue it. But it could be safely and profitably ignored. Like WL put it, "Stick to he high peak revelations of the NT". But the NT was clearly building its revelations out of the OT material. The foretold coming Messiah, being fulfilled by the Man Jesus of Nazareth, was its nearly constant theme. And that included His being ground down to nothing, suffering and being lowered to the shameful death of a slave. All the "high peaks" of the NT are built on this one foundation. When Philip told Nathaniel in John 1:45, "We have found Him", that clearly presupposed common understanding of the typified Messiah alluded to in scriptures. But the gospel narrative repeatedly stressed that the disciples' ideas of this typified Messiah had missed the suffering and dying part. They can be forgiven a little quicker than today's Bible expositors, who have less excuse for ignorance.

So when David says, "You will rescue me" and "You will save me" and "I trust in You" and even, "I obey You. My hands are clean and You delight in Me" I don't think we should be so quick as WL was, to dismiss it out of hand as merely the vanity of David's fallen human imagination. There was One Man who redeemed these declarations; in fact He was even known in NT parlance as the incarnated Word Himself. He lived out this word because He was the Word. And now His sent Spirit makes this Word come alive in our hearts, as we exercise our mouths. This is why the apostle also says that we will be "filled in Spirit" by enjoying this word (Eph 5:18,19). Gee, it sounds something like God's New Testament Economy to me!

04-24-2015 05:31 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by VoiceInWilderness

Here is a verse that I have trouble with, Ps 31:6
6 I have hated the keepers
of worthless vanities,
but I've to the LORD trusted.

In the NT we are not supposed to hate people. I wish the verse said, "I have hated the keeping of worthless vanities", but that rendering doesn't seem possible.

what do you do with this verse, anyone?

I think there are a couple of related approaches. First is to see that God doesn't really "hate". God is love itself. But God is also holy, and God's dealing with the worthless vanities is unpleasant. Like when you spank your kids. You really love them, and don't hate them, but you may whale on them a bit to keep them from going into the abyss.

So what you experience as "the day of God's wrath has come" is not God being wroth but God's righteous dealings. (not saying "this is the way it is" but rather that this is one way of looking at it. We anthropomorphize God in some ways, to characterize Him, but shouldn't be too smitten by our thought-pictures)

Another way is that it's not people we hate but the forces that control them. Paul said that we fight not against flesh and blood but spiritual forces. We know this. This opens the door to a third way, which is my preferred way, because it draws out the most inference, and utility, from the source text. Look, David was a warrior, right? I mean if he wasn't tough, Goliath would have crushed him like a bug. David told Saul, "I killed a lion and a bear and now I'm gonna kill that uncircumcised Philistine."

The background of these poems was unrelenting bloodshed and warfare. Peace was only established when one side was utterly vanquished. And this is a clear picture of the coming King. When He came, the dark forces cried out with fear. "Oh! What do we have to do with you, Jesus? Have you come to destroy us before our time?"

So when Jesus said, "Get thee behind Me, Satan", to Peter, He meant it. He utterly rejected Peter at that moment. Utterly. Jesus knew that there was no compromise with the forces of darkness. Anyone who took Satan's way would be turned away. But Jesus didn't reject Peter, but the forces that operated in Peter. He prayed for Peter, and the rest, (see e.g. Luke 22:32) and God had mercy and saved them. Jesus truly fought the good fight. And yes it is a fight.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OBW

We cannot separate our theology from our practice. But our practice is a window into the value of our theology. However, there are two levels of theology — that which you have argued yourself into thinking is right and which you will argue for, and that which has become true and affects your life. And we often cannot tell the difference between the two. But it shows in our practice.

While I will not say that war is immoral, or that there is no sin, when we speak of those &@$*# homosexuals, ISIS insurgents, liberals, illegal aliens, or whatever, we may hold to "love your neighbor as yourself" as theologically true, but it is not the theology we live. And it is therefore not really our theology. We talk like it is, but we don't believe it enough to reject our natural hatred, bigotry, etc., and live like it is. So our practical theology is not what we say is our theology.

And many who still speak in that manner study, contemplate, and meditate on God's word.

I wanted to bring OBW's post over here because I think it's related. As Christians we can either judge people, and fight them, like the Crusaders going after the godless Muslims and re-taking the Holy Land. Our swords drip with blood, literally, to bring the kingdom nigh.

Or, we say, "Oh, no, we just love everybody", and become relativists. I'm okay, you're okay. No; no one is good except God. The rest of us are in peril, here in the flesh. So we struggle with our own flesh, and try to help others. We close our doors and do battle before the Father's throne.

This is where Psalms come in. The battle rages, and Jesus has won the Victory, and urges us all through the fight, to follow Him. Outwardly we imitate Him, as Christians: when someone says for us to declare judgment, we can say, "Man, who appointed me judge over you?" (Luke 12:14). On earth we are nothing, know nothing except Christ and Him crucified, and have nothing. God is everything. When someone curses us we bless, when they slap our cheeks we expose the other. But inwardly we have the "words of Christ indwelling us richly", per the apostle in Col 3:16, and yes these are words of battle. We are not surprised by anything because we can see the unseen, in the words of Scripture.

But it is not, not, not, not, not against people. We cannot overstress this. It is against forces that have usurped people. To me this is why the seven letters were written to the "angel of the church in Thyatira", etc. There were forces controlling these regions, and the word of the Lord was, "repent". Plain and simple. Repent. Turn and come back to God. John was essentially "praying over" geographical regions, and addressing the forces that were affecting the stuff seen on the ground.

Anyway, as usual I've carried on far too long. Sorry for the wordiness.

04-24-2015 04:55 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by VoiceInWilderness

I give WL more credit for intelligence than that

Well I probably should, too. Unfortunately I'm no Nigel Tomes, and don't have LC materials to present a balanced case. I just have my old RecV Bible with the Psalms. And I do oversimplify WL's presentation, in order to contrast mine. Surely his had more depth than I give him credit for, and I did his interpretation a disservice. Nonetheless, the theme in the RecV Psalms seems pretty clear: Psalm 1 he dismisses because "there's nobody righteous", and then he was committed to a theme and it carried throughout the work.

The Psalms were not about the psalmist, ultimately, nor is the Christian experience their focus. No; these are the "words of Christ", according to Paul, and were "written about Me", according to Jesus. I think a case can be made for that (with caveats of course, and hopefully I've made them as well).

Anyway I'm a rank amateur at argumentation and don't expect people to get it. I just hope to do the subject some service by being clear and direct, not too insulting by being too clear and direct(!), and not being too repetitive and wordy. I may come off like a know-it-all, but really I'm just thinking aloud. And I don't mind when people respond, that I'm more-or-less full of it, because I may well be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VoiceInWilderness

What verse is that?

When I wrote ""Oh God, you've saved me because I obey You and do your will", I was paraphrasing Psalm 18. See e.g. vv 16 - 24.

Quote:

16 He reached down from on high and took hold of me;
he drew me out of deep waters.
17 He rescued me from my powerful enemy,
from my foes, who were too strong for me.
18 They confronted me in the day of my disaster,
but the Lord was my support.
19 He brought me out into a spacious place;
he rescued me because he delighted in me.

20 The Lord has dealt with me according to my righteousness;
according to the cleanness of my hands he has rewarded me.
21 For I have kept the ways of the Lord;
I am not guilty of turning from my God.
22 All his laws are before me;
I have not turned away from his decrees.
23 I have been blameless before him
and have kept myself from sin.
24 The Lord has rewarded me according to my righteousness,
according to the cleanness of my hands in his sight.

I don't remember what WL said about Psalm 18, but it's pretty similar to Psalm 34, which he panned completely, even though it was quoted in the NT. Seems that David saved himself, not God, according to WL. And no mention by him of the foretold Son of David, even though as I said the NT cites the psalm text as of Christ.

Verse 24: "The Lord has rewarded me according to my righteousness, according to the cleanness of my hands in his sight". When I read this, I just can't see who it can be about except Jesus Christ. The rewarded "me" here, speaking, is none other than Jesus. Who else fulfills this word? Essentially that's my argument in a nutshell: WL said "nobody", and I say "Jesus Christ".

04-23-2015 07:08 PM

VoiceInWilderness

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

But WL had a kind of allergic reaction when he covered the Psalms, because they prominently have the word "law".

I give WL more credit for intelligence than that (except for when he was in his 90's his mind was not working so well, but his supporters kept saying that his ministry was getting higher and richer.)
WL's ministry was severely lacking in the working together of faith and works. Most psalms have this as their basic structure, as does much of the NT. It seems rather than acknowledge a severe lack in his ministry, WL said the word of God was wrong. As far as I know, WN never did this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

When the psalmist said, "Oh God, you've saved me because I obey You and do your will",

What verse is that?

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

Third, when John quoted Psalm 69, "And His disciples remembered where it was written, 'Zeal of Thy house has eaten Me up"', John was presupposing familiarity with the cited text. But in the evangelical, fundamentalist thought-world we take for granted the NT authority as intrinsic to itself, and typically downplay or even ignore the source text. How many Christians really have deep familiarity with Psalm 69, in toto?

good point

Here is a verse that I have trouble with, Ps 31:6
6 I have hated the keepers
of worthless vanities,
but I've to the LORD trusted.

In the NT we are not supposed to hate people. I wish the verse said, "I have hated the keeping of worthless vanities", but that rendering doesn't seem possible.

what do you do with this verse, anyone?

04-23-2015 05:17 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

"In the midst of the assembly I will sing praises to You, O Father" (Psa 22:22) If such a suffering, crucified, buried, resurrected, and ascended One is by His Holy Spirit praising the Father among us, how can we not but be encouraged, and carry on likewise? And why shouldn't we be interested in finding details of His relations with the Father in heaven, detailed in the prophetic word?

"Finding details of His relations with the Father in heaven"... that sums up my current Bible reading. To me, everything worthwhile, today, hinges on this. As I wrote earlier, WL typically gave three options from the text. First, that the psalm-writer was natural and fallen and wrote from that perspective, trying vainly to keep the law and please God. Something like "My hands are clean, and You've saved me because You delighted in me" in Psalm 18 was supposedly natural. Or, the writing typifies the Christian believer and his relations with the ascended Jesus Christ, through the Holy Spirit operating within. Today, therefore, it's not dead letter to strain after, but an indwelling, living and life-giving Spirit. And lastly, there's the option of a "revelation of Christ" which the psalmist had, while writing under the influence of the Holy Spirit: e.g. "Not one of His bones shall be broken." Obviously this interpretation was typically driven by NT usage.

But I believe that another interpretive option shows us the Man, Jesus Christ, of Nazareth town, a Galilean in occupied Judea, a descendant of David who hungered and thirsted and struggled and wept, who was mocked by His own younger brothers: "If you are the Christ, go and show yourself at the feast. Don't hide." This very frail, mortal Man can be seen, again and again, in intimate relation with His Father, who is God enthroned in heaven. In this, the psalmist typified Him excellently. Those declarations of fealty and obedience were kept to the "jot and tittle". Jesus overturned nothing, sidestepped nothing, fulfilled all - "It is finished". It is entirely complete in Him. "The things which were written concerning Me must be fulfilled" (Luke 18:31, 22:37, 24:44).

And the weak, frail, mortal human race can now see in Scriptures this One, while yet on earth, in full dependence upon the Father's will and speaking. He was completely dependent and utterly obedient. "He trusted in Him, let Him come down and save Him now" (Psa 22:8; Matt 27:43). The vulnerability of the mortal Christ on earth, which He overcome with faith and trust and hope and obedience, is now a vision beckoning to all those vulnerable creatures who follow.

Let me shift gears for a moment. I try to be "up" on what's current, and recently was viewing a website of one of the "Mega-churches". Essentially they have their own streaming tv station: all the meetings are video-taped and available for viewing. I clicked on one of their recent services, and I couldn't even make it through the first song. It was the typical "Praise and Worship" affair, with a large, plain stage and a half-dozen fresh, smiling musicians. What got me at first was the metronomic banging of the drummer. It was like they were 'thump-thump-thump' agitating the crowd into an elevated, trance-like state. (Maybe that's just my post-Pentacostal allergy kicking in).

But what killed it for me was the "We love You and praise You, our exalted Jesus" theme. Now, nothing's wrong with that of itself. But what I missed was any trace of the relationship of Jesus with the Father. I needed evidence of Jesus, on earth, praising the Father, obeying the Father, and yes even being perfected by the Father. That's why these texts rescue me today. Jesus is now enthroned on high, King of kings and Lord of lords, but before exaltation He walked the proverbial mile or three, with us. The "Man in the glory" was first a man living among the sheep. The P&W guys just bypassed that, and created their own Cargo Cult, staring up at a shiny "Jesus in the Sky" that's far above our toils and cares of humanity below.

But He was here with us.

Now back to my point, and why I think this textual imagery has such powerful potency. Instead of saying, "This is the natural psalmist trying to trust in God", or instead of, "This is the Christian trusting in his own version of 'Jesus in the Sky'", what we might see in the text is the very human Jesus, on earth, trusting in His Heavenly Father. Through fealty and obedience Jesus and the Father were one. Man and God were joined again, and the curse was broken, and estrangement and alienation were gone. When the writer of Hebrews quoted the Psalms and said, "We see Jesus" (2:9) this is Jesus that I recognize. This is He of whom Peter said, "God has raised this Jesus to life, and we're all witnesses of it." (Acts 2:32).

To sum, it's not my trust in God that counts, nor even my trust in Jesus, even (though I do). The vision that burning before me in the text is the frail, mortal, vulnerable Human Being who trusted in His Father God to save Him. This is the brass serpent who was lifted up before our eyes. And this is the One now enthroned. This is the Lamb of God, slain for all. This is the One we can see, and hear, and follow. Because we're here, and He was here, among us. The disciples were with him for several years, and their testimonies are clear; His Holy Spirit is here, declaring Him through the Holy Word.

To me, the Spirit expressly declares that "My hands are clean/I have kept Your word/You rescued Me because You delighted in Me" in Psalm 18 is not merely King David trying to rescue himself, but it importantly typifies the coming Son of David, who is Jesus Christ. God got Jesus out of the 'jam' of incarnation in the flesh of sin, and did it in a way that gives life to all who believe. This was the unique grain that fell and brought forth many grains. God even said, "This is My Son in whom I delight". God delights in Jesus, His Son.

04-22-2015 05:24 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

... there's an open invitation in the NT usage to explore the OT text for revelation of Jesus. (Of course there are limits - our revelation should be tempered by reason, precedence, and fellowship).

... there was One Man who overcame. We'd do well to heed this Man, and live. And He's revealed for us in the words of scripture.

I think Psalm 22 is a classic example. Repeatedly this psalm is cited in the NT text, showing not only the suffering and death of Jesus, but the glories to come. Yet not all of the chapter is cited. Yet it is hard to read the chapter, even the non-cited parts, and not see experiences of the coming Christ.

I don't think it's too much to say that we may cautiously peruse the non-cited parts of the book of Psalms and see pictures of our Jesus. I think the NT usage was an invitation to do just that. The frail, human, suffering Person whose faith in God sustained Him in adversity. In the midst of death He lifted up His voice and blessed the Father. How could we lose hope, with such a One in our midst?

"In the midst of the assembly I will sing praises to You, O Father" (Psa 22:22) If such a suffering, crucified, buried, resurrected, and ascended One is by His Holy Spirit praising the Father among us, how can we but be encouraged, and carry on? And why shouldn't we be interested in finding details of His relations with the Father in heaven, detailed in the prophetic word? I think if done carefully, patiently, with respect, among the oversight of the leaders of the flock, it might be profitable.

"Moreover, the rules of the Church require that Scripture should be understood as the holy Fathers explain it, and not at all arbitrarily. By being guided in our understanding of the Gospel by the explanation of the holy Fathers, we keep the tradition of the Holy Church." Russian Bishop Ignaty Brianchaninov

04-21-2015 05:46 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

How many Christians really have deep familiarity with Psalm 69, in toto? Did just that one single verse convey information about the coming Christ, or was John supposing that the reader, familiar with the source text, would continue the study?

It is not merely objective information that we get, however. It is truly the "infilling Spirit" that Paul wrote of in Ephesians 5.

Quote:

17 So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. 18 And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit, 19 speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody with your heart to the Lord;…

The disciples were not drunk on the day of Pentecost, as observers supposed. Paul's readers didn't get drunk on wine but got filled in spirit. This is not outward "head knowledge" but a spiritual entering. We enter deeper into the will of the Lord, which is entirely centered around the person of His Son Jesus Christ; likewise this "word of Christ" enters us more deeply, and begins to "dwell in us richly". I cannot adequately describe the experience, but I know it's real. WL effectively discouraged this experience by making fun of people who sang the Psalms. "Too low", he said. Better to sing a hymn by a good Protestant reformer. (insert loud "ooh-gah! ooh-gah!" noise and flashing red lights here.)

04-21-2015 05:31 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by InOmnibusCaritas

I hope that we will stick to Psalms on this thread. ... I want to listen more about Psalms.

I'll try to summarize: the apostle Paul twice mentioned singing Psalms in his epistles, calling them the "word of Christ" in Colossians and "the infilling Spirit" in Ephesians. But WL had a kind of allergic reaction when he covered the Psalms, because they prominently have the word "law". WL said "nobody can keep the law; salvation is by grace". Yes, but the standard NT interpretation was that Jesus the Nazarene was foretold in scripture. In the OT writers' declarations of fealty and obedience they typified the coming Messiah. And this is prominently featured in the Psalms. Jesus wasn't called the "Son of David" for nothing. See e.g. Luke 18:38 "He called out, 'Jesus, Son of David, have mercy on me!'" and Matthew 21:9 "The crowds that went ahead of him and those that followed shouted, 'Hosanna to the Son of David!' 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!' 'Hosanna in the highest heaven!'"

So we know that Jesus didn't circumvent the law but kept and fulfilled it, and that now we the formerly lawless ones have hope, because we can believe into the Obedient Son and be saved. And yes "being saved" involves obeying Him (in hearing, recognizing, and cooperating with the sent Spirit of Life) just as He obeyed the Father. The OT writers, including David, were indeed sinners, but in their struggles to obey God they gave and outline, or framework, for the One who was to follow.

When the psalmist said, "Oh God, you've saved me because I obey You and do your will", WL said, in effect, "No God didn't save him. He saved himself". I reject this interpretation. The psalmist's poem, or song, was a picture of the Obedient Son, and the Father's raising Him from death. This is clearly outlined in the initial speech in Acts 2, by Peter, on the day of Pentecost. David had indeed failed, but being a prophet he foreknew, and spoke about, the promise of God to his seed.

Second, the writer to Hebrews quotes the Psalms something like 8 or 10 times in the first section, then says, "we see Jesus" (2:9). Some of those quotations wouldn't seem like the humble Nazarene at first glance. "Your throne, O God, is forever", etc. Wow! That was Jesus?!? What a revelation! So there's an open invitation in the NT usage to explore the OT text for revelation of Jesus. (Of course there are limits - our revelation should be tempered by reason, precedence, and fellowship).

Third, when John quoted Psalm 69, "And His disciples remembered where it was written, 'Zeal of Thy house has eaten Me up"', John was presupposing familiarity with the cited text. But in the evangelical, fundamentalist thought-world we take for granted the NT authority as intrinsic to itself, and typically downplay or even ignore the source text. How many Christians really have deep familiarity with Psalm 69, in toto? Did just that one single verse convey information about the coming Christ, or was John supposing that the reader, familiar with the source text, would continue the study?

That brings me to my last point: is there any place in the myriad citations in the NT where the author says, in effect, "Only use this citation. The rest of the Psalms are natural, and written according to fallen human concepts. They aren't revelatory of Jesus Christ"? Where's the accompanying warning in the NT usage to ignore the "natural" chaff? I don't see it; "Man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God."

WL ran his "God's economy" bulldozer through the text and the results were not pretty. Imagine if the Ethiopian had asked, "Did he write this about himself, or someone else?" and Philip had said, "No, you can ignore that verse. That was just a natural man trying to save himself by keeping his mouth shut. Eventually everyone opens their mouth and reveals their fallen nature. All men are sinners."

No, there was One Man who overcame. We would do well to heed this Man, and live. And He is revealed for us in the words of scripture.

04-19-2015 10:15 AM

awareness

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by InOmnibusCaritas

I hope that we will stick to Psalms on this thread. There are way more threads in these forums on whether LC is a cult. The bit about evangelicalism is very bizarre though. I'm also not comfortable with the unChristian allegations that LC paid off Hank and CRI (or Fuller Theological Seminary).

At any rate, I want to listen more about Psalms.

Sorry InOmnibusCaritas ...

04-19-2015 10:02 AM

InOmnibusCaritas

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

Did somebody mention cult? I'll be the voice of cult out here.

The local church is not a cult like Jim Jones, or Heaven's Gate. Nobody is gonna drink poison Kool-Aid, or commit suicide expecting a spaceship to pick them up.

The local church is a cult because they usurp the mind. In fact, they are proud of being out of their mind.

And they are a cult of the personality type, a personality cult, because, they devote their life to following one man; their MOTA.

The problem of calling the local church a cult is that they are basically an evangelical Christian movement. So calling them a cult brands by extension evangelicalism a cult.

Why do you think CRI came out with "We Were Wrong? They didn't want to also be branded a cult ... which they are ... them and Hank, The Bible Answer Man. He's been constantly hitting me up for money in email for years now. And was prolly paid off by the local church cult to withdraw their claim that the local church is a cult.
http://www.equip.org/PDF/EnglishOpt.pdf

You boys, and gals, from the mid-west were buffered by Titus Chu. So I understand why you don't think the local church is a cult. But praise be to the Lord, ya'all were quarantined by that cult. That should tell you something about LSM. Stop cutting them slack.

Say it loud. Say it proud : LSM is a cult.

04-19-2015 08:32 AM

awareness

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

And then there were three ...

....................................

Anybody else like stand up and be counted? awareness, how about you?

04-19-2015 03:53 AM

Ohio

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by VoiceInWilderness

I agree with the 2 of you.

I'd like to know what AMCasci thinks about this.

And then there were three ...

....................................

Anybody else like stand up and be counted?

04-18-2015 08:12 PM

UntoHim

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by InOmnibusCaritas

Um... this I cannot agree. LC is an exclusive Christian sect but not a cult.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

I have been saying this for years. Unfortuately we are the minority here.

Minority here? Has there been some survey that I'm not aware of? Actually the vast majority of LCD members would not use the term "cult" to apply to the Local Church. But what do I know, I'm just the dummy who reads every post!

04-18-2015 07:23 PM

VoiceInWilderness

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Quote:
Originally Posted by InOmnibusCaritas
Um... this I cannot agree. LC is an exclusive Christian sect but not a cult.

I have been saying this for years. Unfortuately we are the minority here.

I agree with the 2 of you.

I'd like to know what AMCasci thinks about this.

04-18-2015 07:15 PM

VoiceInWilderness

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by InOmnibusCaritas

Lee doesn't devalue all the Psalms -- those that were quoted in the NT gets the thumbs up.

That was the case in the book "Christ and the Church in the Psalms".
But in his old age, WL gave ministry messages on the Psalms, and he even trashed the parts of Psalm 34 which were quoted by Peter, as pointed out by Aron.

04-18-2015 07:06 PM

VoiceInWilderness

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amcasci

Here is where we need to distinguish between the two kingdoms, the right hand Kingdom being the Gospel/Church and the left hand being Government. The Lord has established both and both have their place. So, King David and Samuel are acting in the Left hand kingdom and the task of the left hand Kingdom is to punish evil and promote good (Romans 13).

Not only so but one of the beauties of the Psalms is that they bring out the whole range of human emotion that we are all susceptible to. We are yet sinners and sinners do have outbreaks of anger, lust, greed and all. We pour out our hearts to the Lord but then we ask forgiveness for those sins. Praying the Psalms is a much needed exercise for all saints of Christ.

AM,
This is very good. Thanks for sharing. I didn't know it. WL's ministry was very lacking in this type of understanding, esp the 1st paragraph.

04-17-2015 05:08 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

If we truly want to walk upon the sea of glass, I believe that it's necessary to see the Lord. If we "exercise our spirits" in the word we will eventually say, "I have seen the Lord!"

Just seeing is of course not the same as doing. Everyone, including LSM, preaches this. It's not doctrines but behavior. Lip service alone to God doesn't cut it.

But without seeing, what doing is there? The doing of the blind, the lost, the confused. I was recently touched with Paul's reminder to the Corinthians of his ministry among them. I was touched by two aspects: "spirit" and "word". The word alone is dead letters. But the spirit unharnessed by the word is directionless. Paul claims that in his ministry they were fused, as they had been in Him who he declared, Jesus Christ.

Quote:

1Cor 2:4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power.

1Cor 2:13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.

1Cor 4:20 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of talk but of power

Back to my previous post (#462), what if I'm the word, wrestling with God as it were, and the Spirit comes and reveals Jesus Christ to me? Suddenly the "parousia" to some extent occurs, the word becomes "living and operative", and "witnesses with my spirit", and begins to "dwell richly" in me. Suddenly like Mary, I can exclaim, "I have seen the Lord!"

And then, what if my friendly neighborhood Bible expositor, says, "No, that's just a word from fallen men, according to their vain concepts". What then? And what if this particular Bible expositor is so dominating of the flock, so controlling, and insisting on "one accord", that the churches be "exactly identical" and "speaking the same thing" that essentially my vision makes me persona non grata, unwelcome? What then to do with my vision?

Actually that's not an easy question. The simple answer is "walk away" but if we all walked away from the flock every time we got a vision that not everyone else picked up on, what kind of a flock would it be? A flock of quarrelsome, divisive "seers"... no, we have to bear with one another, visions and all.

But I digress. The point I wanted to make is that the Spirit opens the word and reveals Jesus Christ. That's what Paul was doing, speaking in Athens and Philippi. That's what Peter did, standing with the eleven, after the flames came down from heaven. That's what John did, writing his Apocalypse. The Spirit uses the Word to reveal Jesus Christ to us, and this saves us. To me that's foundational. This provides the necessary lamp to our feet, the basis of our subsequent behaviors. My time in the LCs was all part of the journey. "Exercising my spirit" in the word. Like the writer to the Hebrews said, "we see Jesus" (2:9).

But at the same time, ultimately there's a decision, whether to follow the Spirit of power, or the words of men. Because at some point, these may diverge, and then one must choose whether they want "words taught by the Spirit" (1 Cor 2:13) or words taught by men. Because to maintain contact with the Spirit of the Word, they'll have to pay a price.

Quote:

Acts 5:29 But Peter and the apostles answered, “We must obey God rather than men.."

Galatians 1:10 "Am I now trying to win the approval of human beings, or of God? Or am I trying to please people? If I were still trying to please people, I would not be a servant of Christ."

04-16-2015 01:49 PM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amcasci

... one of the beauties of the Psalms is that they bring out the whole range of human emotion that we are all susceptible to. We are yet sinners and ... pour out our hearts to the Lord but then we ask forgiveness for those sins. Praying the Psalms is a much needed exercise for all saints of Christ.

My main argument for praying, singing, reading, speaking, and meditating on the Psalms as a much needed exercise is very much in line with both Paul's NT presentation and WL's vaunted "God's economy". When we "exercise our spirits" in God's word, and bring it in experientially, i.e. with action and not merely thought, it reinforces the word and opens us up to the sustained influence of that word. Paul said "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly", which meant to fully "saturate and permeate" us, in LC lexicon.

So why am I not back in the LCs? Because the word I want to experience isn't the one that the blended leadership wants me to experience. I want the word of Christ, not the interpreted word of someone's ministry.

For example, in Psalm 131:2 it says "But I have calmed and quieted myself, I am like a weaned child with its mother; like a weaned child I am content." Who was content in the boat, upon the rough sea, when the wind and waves were contrary? Only One Person could fulfil this word. "Master, why do you sleep!? Save us for we perish!" Only One could be "calm and quiet" in the storm. Only One.

If we truly want to walk upon the sea of glass, I believe that it's necessary to see the Lord. If we "exercise our spirits" in the word we will eventually say, "I have seen the Lord!"

04-09-2015 12:30 PM

Ohio

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amcasci

And why didn't Lee decide to bless those who criticized him?

He brought lawsuits against the outsiders, and quarantine smear sessions against the insiders. The Blendeds have simply duplicated his feats, except that they will also sue the insiders, like they did in Toronto, Columbus, and Mansfield.

04-08-2015 06:07 AM

Amcasci

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

"And what really irks me about Lee's coverage of the Psalms was his stubborn refusal to see spiritual types in the physical portrayals. So when the psalmist prayed for calumny to his foes, for example, that God would smite the oppressors and turn them back to darkness, Lee simply said, "We shouldn't curse others but bless them." Oh really - was David supposed to bless Goliath? Was Samuel supposed to bless Agag? "

Here is where we need to distinguish between the two kingdoms, the right hand Kingdom being the Gospel/Church and the left hand being Government. The Lord has established both and both have their place. So, King David and Samuel are acting in the Left hand kingdom and the task of the left hand Kingdom is to punish evil and promote good (Romans 13).

Not only so but one of the beauties of the Psalms is that they bring out the whole range of human emotion that we are all susceptible to. We are yet sinners and sinners do have outbreaks of anger, lust, greed and all. We pour out our hearts to the Lord but then we ask forgiveness for those sins. Praying the Psalms is a much needed exercise for all saints of Christ.

04-08-2015 05:39 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by InOmnibusCaritas

Lee doesn't devalue all the Psalms -- those that were quoted in the NT gets the thumbs up.

Even some of them didn't pass muster with Lee. Peter's citation of Psalm 34 in 1 Peter chapter 3 got a thumbs down. Not high enough, according to the so-called vision of the age.

And what really irks me about Lee's coverage of the Psalms was his stubborn refusal to see spiritual types in the physical portrayals. So when the psalmist prayed for calumny to his foes, for example, that God would smite the oppressors and turn them back to darkness, Lee simply said, "We shouldn't curse others but bless them." Oh really - was David supposed to bless Goliath? Was Samuel supposed to bless Agag? This is a complete misreading of the OT narrative, in my view. And in the NT, did Jesus bless the demons and unclean spirits, and pat them on their soft, fuzzy little heads? The often bloody and violent world of the OT can be seen as a type of the daily struggle we face. We Jesus-confessors are trying to stay connected to the path home to our Father, and we're violently opposed at every turn. And many of the worst enemies are close at hand; some are within!

Quote:

Matthew 26:40-42 "And He came to the disciples and found them sleeping, and said to Peter, "So, you men could not keep watch with Me for one hour? "Keep watching and praying that you may not enter into temptation; the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak." He went away again a second time and prayed, saying, "My Father, if this cannot pass away unless I drink it, Your will be done."

Our struggles of faith occasionally do involve threats of physical harm. I know in some places that is reality and don't want to dismiss it. But nonetheless the struggle to overcome opposition is real for all of us. Look at what happened to the disciples. They tried to "watch and pray" for one hour, but were overcome. And Paul clearly wrote, "We don't struggle against flesh and blood but spiritual forces", but Lee simply ignored this spiritual dynamic when in the Psalms. "Nope", he said. "These guys wished harm on others; that's not Christian. We can safely ignore this text. On to the next, to the 'high peak revelations' located elsewhere in the Bible."

Interestingly to me, Psalm 119 offers a vivid picture of one struggling to stay connected to spiritual reality. The protagonist continually tries to keep his/her face toward God, and constantly meets opposition, but the narrative is stylized, or generalized, to include spiritual pursuit, and spiritual opposition. "The wicked are waiting to destroy me/but I have pondered all your precepts" (v.95). The "violent opposition" in Psalm 119 is to someone trying to pray! Incredible! What a vivid portrayal of what Jesus presented to Peter et al in Matthew 26! I don't have my RecV in front of me & can't review Lee's textual treatment here, but still the larger point remains of the spiritual struggle to overcome deadness, weakness, greed, dormancy, confusion, shame, dullness, tiredness (can I stop now?) and so forth is repeatedly and clearly laid before us by the seeking one in the OT. It is not vain. Sorry, I just can't see the word of God pushed into an exegetical hole like that. No. I simply refuse this speaking.

04-08-2015 12:01 AM

InOmnibusCaritas

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by HERn

I think the entire bible, even the Psalms were meant to be read and valued. Here's a quote from Rick Warren on the Psalms.

"To instruct us in candid honesty, God gave us the book of Psalms--a worship manual, full of ranting, doubts, fears, resentments, and deep passions combined with thanksgiving, praise, and statements of faith. Every possible emotion is catalogued in the Psalms. When you read the emotional confessions of David and others, realize this is how God wants you to worship Him---holding back nothing of what you feel."

Dear brothers and sisters in the lords recovery, please tell me, who is this Lee that sniffs at the Psalms? Both Jesus and Paul valued the Psalms!

Lee doesn't devalue all the Psalms -- those that were quoted in the NT gets the thumbs up.

04-07-2015 07:27 PM

HERn

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

04-07-2015 05:17 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by InOmnibusCaritas

LC is an exclusive Christian sect but not a cult.

I won't argue with your point. Nonetheless the LC obsessively and excessively honors its founders Nee and Lee, such that it shades into the gray area of de facto "cultic" if not de jure "cult". It's an exclusive Christian sect which could be mistaken for a cult, and often is. And look how far the apple had to fall from the tree to produce a full-blown cult with the Shouter sect on mainland China, who allegedly do regard WL as Christ Himself, God become flesh. Not far at all, in fact; it didn't take much to get from "I'm a God-man" and "I'm a Baby God" and "WL was Acting God (or, Deputy Authority, Number Four, God's Oracle, MotA)" to treating him as deity incarnate.

Of course there's variance in the historical characters whom I cited. But there's also a theme, that of elevating individuals as the center and focus of a religious group; likewise the LC seems like a personality cult with a small "c". Arguably this also happens in politics, in sports, in entertainment and the arts, and too often in religious life as well. Perhaps the LC didn't cross the line, but they moved too close.

Back to the topic at hand:

Quote:

Originally Posted by InOmnibusCaritas

So we need to find out what is the underlying reason for WL's view of the Psalter. The root cause, I believe, is WL's misunderstanding of the word "law" in Psalm 1. The LXX translated the original Hebrew term "torah" as "nomos" (law) and this term got into Pauline literature as well. Unfortunately, "nomos" flattened the meaning of the word "torah" to just judicial regulations. Hence, WL equated the "law" in Psalm 1 to the Ten Commandments.

The fuller meaning of "torah" is "teaching". The Pentateuch is the Torah - the teachings of God. All the narratives in the Torah: creation, human sin, God's promise of redemption, the Abrahamic covenant, the exodus, the Decalogue, etc., are all "torah". They are God's teaching. The compilers organized the Psalter into 5 books to invite the readers to consider meditating upon these Psalms as equivalent to meditating upon the Torah...

The prevailing compilation theory held among scholars today (especially since Gerald H. Wilson's groundbreaking work - e.g., "The Editing of the Book of Psalms") is that Psalm 1 is added to the Psalter in the last redaction cycle by its final editors called the "Wisdom Editors". Psalm 1 was not meant to be a psalm by itself but rather served as an introduction or preface written by the editors to encourage the readers to meditate upon these other 149 Psalms day and night. Thus, to hold a low view of Psalm 1, understood in its original context, is to hold a low view of the entire Psalter.

I also see Psalm 1 being a kind of thematic overview of the texts that follow. And WL had a flattened view of the law, to be sure. I argue that he was entirely swayed by Luther's reaction to the RCC and the subsequent recovery of justification by faith. But in WL's hands that became a bulldozer, pushing the text into a Protestant and post-Protestant thought-world. Now, we all filter the word through our various cultural lenses to some extent, so I don't fault him there. But my lens is different: I see "law" as something not merely opposed to and subsumed by "grace" (as in the Lutheran treatment of Paul's epistles).

Rather I see God's word as eternal, and pure. It is not God's fault that we could not keep it. What were the pious Jews supposed to do but say, "Amen, LORD, we will keep your word?" And my interpretive lens is this: In the NT I see Peter in Acts 2, saying that while David indeed failed in keeping the utterance, he being a prophet foreknew that his coming Seed would not fail. Also in the NT I see the writer to the Hebrews quoting a long string of OT texts, prominently featuring psalms, and then saying "We see Jesus" (2:9). So there's an open invitation for us (the royal "we") to search the OT for Jesus. And what do I see in Psalm 1? A person who loves the word of the LORD, who meditates on it day and night, and who is blessed thereby. This is clearly contrasted with those who do not (the wicked).

Well, to me the Christian testimony is that we the wicked see this Righteous One and live. This is grace, that God sent His Son to save sinners, of whom I am indeed one. We the failed sinners see Jesus and believe, and live.

Now, we come to Psalm 2, with the installation of the victorious king, etc. These first two Psalms are not diametrically opposed, as WL thought. He said the first Psalm was vanity, being unattainable - just "kiss the Son" in Psalm 2, he said, and experience God's grace. No, the reason Jesus is enthroned in Psalm 2 is because He kept the word of Psalm 1. He did not overturn the word of God but fulfilled it. We the disobedient bow before the Obedient One. We acknowledge Him as King of all, as the designated Son of God. Yes God loves us, but He in love sent the Obedient One to die for we who were disobedient. This is love, that while we were yet sinners Christ Jesus died for us. The Blessed One who fulfilled Psalm 1 laid down His life for we who were accursed, who couldn't keep the word; we now see this One and live. We acknowledge Him as God's installed King, come under His righteous rule, and share His blessing. The promises of God to the Faithful and Obedient One ("He believed God, now let Him come and save Him" [Matt 27:43] and "My God in whom I trust; I will not be ashamed" [Psa 25:2]) now are available to all who by this same spirit of faith see Him.

04-07-2015 05:15 AM

Ohio

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by InOmnibusCaritas

Yes, exactly! "One publication" was the main trigger for my departure from LC because I realised that it was beyond reformation.

In the name of "oneness," anaheim attempted to bring every LC under subjection. My departure was finalized with the realization that LSM was becoming no different than the RCC which i had grown up in.

Quote:

Originally Posted by InOmnibusCaritas

Um... this I cannot agree. LC is an exclusive Christian sect but not a cult.

I have been saying this for years. Unfortuately we are the minority here.

04-06-2015 07:07 PM

InOmnibusCaritas

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

This is an effect of the "One trumpet" edict: no new voices can rise, and we all must now repeat the deceased oracle's speaking. The Blendeds by this, made themselves curators of a museum.

Yes, exactly! "One publication" was the main trigger for my departure from LC because I realised that it was beyond reformation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

So, what is the difference between Mary Baker Eddy, Witness Lee, Joseph Smith, Jim Jones, Brigham Young, Sun Myung Moon, Ellen G. White, David Koresh, and Haile Selassie, to name but a few? In the words of RK, "Absolutely nothing"!

Um... this I cannot agree. LC is an exclusive Christian sect but not a cult.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

So if you had a "gift" for God and it wasn't brought into "submission" below these oracles of God, you were wasting your time. God is only interested in one thing on Earth today and, according to WN, you'd better get in line. Know who's in front of you and obey without question.

Yes, the doctrine of MotA is extremely damaging. LSM likes to argue by marshalling test cases from OT. I don't even have to argue this from an NT perspective. Jeremiah and Ezekiel ministered at the same time, the former in Jerusalem, the latter in Babylon.

04-06-2015 05:10 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by InOmnibusCaritas

Outside of the LSM system. Once you allow for a post-Lee ministry, this can happen. There are also local compilations and sometimes regional ones. But I doubt there can be a new hymnal like the one published by LSM.

This is an effect of the "One trumpet" edict: no new voices can rise, and we all must now repeat the deceased oracle's speaking. The Blendeds by this, made themselves curators of a museum.

So, what is the difference between Mary Baker Eddy, Witness Lee, Joseph Smith, Jim Jones, Brigham Young, Sun Myung Moon, Ellen G. White, David Koresh, and Haile Selassie, to name but a few? In the words of RK, "Absolutely nothing"! Each of these was apparently a chosen vessel, God's man (or woman) of the hour. No one else could receive revelation, or minister God's words, apart from God's present oracle. The Bible said that none could come to the Father except through Jesus Christ, and now, according to these self-claimed "special vessels", none could get access to Jesus Christ except through them. So if you had a "gift" for God and it wasn't brought into "submission" below these oracles of God, you were wasting your time. God is only interested in one thing on Earth today and, according to WN, you'd better get in line. Know who's in front of you and obey without question.

04-05-2015 09:47 PM

InOmnibusCaritas

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Brothers in Toronto, Ontario put out a new "Songs and Hymns of Life" in 2009 after LSM had quarantined the GLA. Hymnal has Nee hymns but none of Lee due to copyrights.

04-05-2015 09:57 AM

Ohio

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by InOmnibusCaritas

With the death of WL, it is probably close to impossible to issue a new hymn book or an updated RcV. Nobody has the authority to be MotA any more since the Blendeds proclaimed "Brother We". Barring external input, stagnation is the only course.

Brothers in Toronto, Ontario put out a new "Songs and Hymns of Life" in 2009 after LSM had quarantined the GLA. Hymnal has Nee hymns but none of Lee due to copyrights.

04-05-2015 09:23 AM

InOmnibusCaritas

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

The peril of exclusive claims to truth is that once one's convinced themelves of this idea, they're on the inexorable path to self-centeredness, eccentricity, and stagnation.

Of course being open has its perils too, and associated costs. For instance, while there's good Christian music today, one may have to search far and wide to find it, while occasionally holding the nose. But the alterantive is to sit in a corner and declare that nobody else has communion with the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and thereby enter the portal of spiritual doom.

"So be open, don't be hardened, drop your concepts, eat that tree!" (a little inside humour).

And to get the living water into me

04-05-2015 07:16 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by InOmnibusCaritas

Barring external input, stagnation is the only course.

04-04-2015 10:35 PM

InOmnibusCaritas

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

Perhaps. I only observe that once WN put pen to paper and composed hymns, no "outside" songs made it into Little Flock/LC meetings, until these. And none after.

04-04-2015 04:19 PM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by InOmnibusCaritas

I don't think WL's low view of many Psalms stem from his fear of CCM songs. I think he simply couldn't reconcile these Psalms with God's economy.

Perhaps. I only observe that once WN put pen to paper and composed hymns, no "outside" songs made it into Little Flock/LC meetings, until these. And none after.

04-04-2015 03:05 PM

Unregistered

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

'I think he simply couldn't reconcile these Psalms with God's economy.'
Exact.

04-04-2015 08:39 AM

InOmnibusCaritas

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

Back in the day, when the Jesus Movement(s) were happening, there were also "all kinds of songs" springing up. Not just in the LCs either; some of the burgeoning CCM efforts made it into the LCs. Here I'm thinking specifically of scriptural songs, and psalms in particular. For example, a man named Keith Green wrote a song based on Psalm 51: "Create in me a clean heart". It was very popular in Christianity, and in the LCs as well. There were a lot of others, some of whom I later tracked down. They weren't from LC people; they were from the Baptists and "free groups" but their songs became popular in the Lord's recovery movement. The music was getting sung, re-recorded, and passed around.

The interesting thing about this is that I was taught Keith Green's Psalm 51 song by my youth serving one. I just assumed that it was written by Howard Higashi because we were big on Higashi at that time. My youth serving one has since been elevated as a "co-worker".

Only much later did I discover that it was written by "Christianity". The funny thing is that I'm currently teaching this song to the youths I am pastoring at the Methodist church here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

Can you imagine the consternation that this caused, to the control freak WL? Don't you think that this affected his interpretative abilities? Certainly there's correlation; perhaps we can't prove causation but we can suspect it. I believe that he felt the need to suppress this word because otherwise through it, these "outside forces" would have a door into his precious movement. So he created a "low word" and "high word" metric and used that to drive a wedge into the text, which enabled him to cut off anything deemed unfit for public consumption, including scripture itself.

So in Psalm 34, for example, he could say, "Natural, natural, natural" and then come to the verse saying, "not one of His bones shall be broken" and say "Revelation!", then it was right back to "Natural, natural, natural". And so forth... the whole body of the text got treated thus.

I do think WL has a low view of most of the Psalms but to be fair I don't think he totally shuns songs from Psalms. When Ron Kangas came to Malaysia, he taught us to sing Hymn 1336, "What shall I give unto the Lord", based on Psalm 116:12-13 (https://www.hymnal.net/en/hymn/h/1336).

I don't think WL's low view of many Psalms stem from his fear of CCM songs. I think he simply couldn't reconcile these Psalms with God's economy.

04-02-2015 05:40 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by InOmnibusCaritas

"Psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs" probably just meant "all kinds of songs".

Yes, I agree. But "all kinds of songs" undoubtedly included psalms as well. I don't think that Paul was either imposing or excluding anything here. WL looked right at this word and excluded Psalms. On the LSM website they had music CDs based on Song of Songs, on Isaiah, on Jeremiah, etc, etc, but no Psalms. Pretty strange, to say the least.

Back in the day, when the Jesus Movement(s) were happening, there were also "all kinds of songs" springing up. Not just in the LCs either; some of the burgeoning CCM efforts made it into the LCs. Here I'm thinking specifically of scriptural songs, and psalms in particular. For example, a man named Keith Green wrote a song based on Psalm 51: "Create in me a clean heart". It was very popular in Christianity, and in the LCs as well. There were a lot of others, some of whom I later tracked down. They weren't from LC people; they were from the Baptists and "free groups" but their songs became popular in the Lord's recovery movement. The music was getting sung, re-recorded, and passed around.

Can you imagine the consternation that this caused, to the control freak WL? Don't you think that this affected his interpretative abilities? Certainly there's correlation; perhaps we can't prove causation but we can suspect it. I believe that he felt the need to suppress this word because otherwise through it, these "outside forces" would have a door into his precious movement. So he created a "low word" and "high word" metric and used that to drive a wedge into the text, which enabled him to cut off anything deemed unfit for public consumption, including scripture itself.

So in Psalm 34, for example, he could say, "Natural, natural, natural" and then come to the verse saying, "not one of His bones shall be broken" and say "Revelation!", then it was right back to "Natural, natural, natural". And so forth... the whole body of the text got treated thus.

04-02-2015 01:25 AM

InOmnibusCaritas

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Initially PSRP was NOT for scripture, but for training outlines.

Ah, I'm not surprised. Although I only used PSRP on scripture.

04-01-2015 09:20 PM

Ohio

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by InOmnibusCaritas

That's how you were taught on PSRP? The way it was taught to me is:

Pray-read a verse: The way we all know how pray-read actually works although that may not have been the original design -- I'll talk about it in a different thread.

Study: Footnotes! What else? =D

Recite: Memorise the verse

Prophecy: Tell others about it.

Initially PSRP was NOT for scripture, but for training outlines.

04-01-2015 08:17 PM

InOmnibusCaritas

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

I've mentioned this before, but maybe it's worth telling again. I went to the LSM website a couple or 3 years ago and looked at the music section. They had CDs of people singing WL's message outlines. I kid you not. They had musical Bible verses from Philippians and Colossians. They had hymns. And at the top, the web page had Paul's exhortation to sing Psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs. But they didn't have any Psalms available.

Many of the Psalms that made it into the LC movement meetings were musically arranged outside the LC, in dreaded "Christianity", and I suspect that WL & Blended Minions couldn't openly acknowledge that the Spirit of God could do anything there. So he had to pan the Psalms, and not encourage singing them. Too low, he said, we should stick with the NT. But Paul, in the NT, had repeatedly said to sing them!

So instead we got PSRP, and WL became the ultimate redactor of the Bible, saving us from the "uninterpreted word".

"Psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs" probably just meant "all kinds of songs".

In the context of Eph. 5 and its sister verse of Col. 3:16, there is some rift between the Jews and the Gentiles (as always). Speak/Sing to one another using psalms (mizmur - Jewish), hymns (hymnos - Greek), and spiritual songs (either mizmur or hymnos or whatever else is fine).

I had to write a paper on this last year and scoured as much journal/commentary material about it as I can find and ended up favouring this one. The others are just too artificially complicated and don't seem to fit the context as much.

04-01-2015 04:32 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered

PSRP means?

PSRP means "Pray-read", "Study", "Recite", "Prophesy". It was a "move", maybe early '90s I don't remember. First you were supposed to "exercise your spirit" by repeatedly shouting the words. That's pray-reading. Then you study what WL said the words mean spiritually. Then you recite "bullet points", or snippets of "the ministry". Then you go to a LC meeting and "prophesy", or speak the WL ministry bullet points back to the crowd. If you did that repeatedly you would supposedly both "gain Christ" and "build up the Body".

I've mentioned this before, but maybe it's worth telling again. I went to the LSM website a couple or 3 years ago and looked at the music section. They had CDs of people singing WL's message outlines. I kid you not. They had musical Bible verses from Philippians and Colossians. They had hymns. And at the top, the web page had Paul's exhortation to sing Psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs. But they didn't have any Psalms available.

Many of the Psalms that made it into the LC movement meetings were musically arranged outside the LC, in dreaded "Christianity", and I suspect that WL & Blended Minions couldn't openly acknowledge that the Spirit of God could do anything there. So he had to pan the Psalms, and not encourage singing them. Too low, he said, we should stick with the NT. But Paul, in the NT, had repeatedly said to sing them!

So instead we got PSRP, and WL became the ultimate redactor of the Bible, saving us from the "uninterpreted word".

03-31-2015 04:39 PM

Unregistered

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

PSRP means?

03-30-2015 12:38 AM

InOmnibusCaritas

Re: Discussion of Psalm 2 (part 1 of 3)

Quote:

Originally Posted by VoiceInWilderness

Psalm 2 was written by David according to Acts 4:25,

I agree that you can't take a verse so out of context like that. That was one of the problems with pray-reading, that a verse would be taken out of context and often taken to mean more than it said.

Ps 2:12 Kiss the Son lest He be angry and you perish from the way when His wrath burns but a little.

This is a word for rulers. A Christian kisses the Son because he loves Him because He gave up His life for us, but a ruler kisses the Son lest He be angry.
This is not a romantic kiss.

I am perfectly fine with ascribing the Psalm to the historical David. It is plausible that David wrote this psalm as the standardised enthronement liturgy for his successors.

I am also perfectly fine with pray-reading provided the verse is studied first. I have major problems with how many LC-ers practice pray-reading. I have an even bigger issue with PSRP. Study the context first so that pray-reading doesn't lead one to impossible interpretations.

Yes, "kiss the Son lest He be angry" was written to the vassal rulers (e.g., Moab). Of course, if Gentile rulers too must be in subjection to the King, Gentile peasants like us too should pledge our allegiance to Him.

Christians today ought to "kiss the Son" out of love for the salvation afforded to us, but that application cannot be derived from Psalm 2.

03-29-2015 04:41 PM

VoiceInWilderness

Re: Discussion of Psalm 2 (part 1 of 3)

Quote:

Originally Posted by InOmnibusCaritas

No, it's not OK and it's not fine for people to use Psalm 2 in that way. While applications can and should be subjective, all applications must stem from an exegesis that "kiss the Son" means submission to the Anointed's rule. In its original sitz im leben, the "son" and the "anointed" refers to a Davidic king (cf. 2 Sam 7). If I have to speculate, I'll date Psalm 2 to Solomon or Rehoboam's enthronement. This is an enthronement Psalm. The writer of Hebrews understands that Jesus Christ is the ultimate Davidic King, the unique Son, and the greatest Messiah, and thus re-interpreted this old enthronement Psalm in view of Jesus the king (cf. Heb. 2:9 and context), and therefore we should all pledge our allegiance to Jesus and not relapse into Judaism (a primary goal of Hebrews).

How do we apply "kiss the Son"? It varies from person to person. It's subjective. But it's not uncontrolled. We subjectively experience Christ's sovereignty over our lives -- our circumstances are all different. But it must always mean Christ's sovereignty. It cannot mean "divine romance" or anything else.

03-25-2015 08:28 PM

InOmnibusCaritas

Re: Discussion of Psalm 2 (part 1 of 3)

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

And if my letter obviated God’s word, by superseding some (either implicitly or explicitly) by calling it “vain”, or “natural” or “fallen human concepts” (you see where I am going here), then that epistle of mine should be looked at as radioactive, or nearly so, by any Christian recipients. Suppose in my epistle, I said that some of the OT was essentially invalidated as revelation, because the author expressed love for God’s law, which Paul had said could save no one. Or, in the NT, I criticize Peter’s quotation of Psalms was “low”, versus Paul’s “high revelation” in his epistles.

That, to me, approaches the warning in Rev 22:18,19 (cf Deut 4:2). Do not take away from God’s word.

More eminent Christians than WL have lower view of certain parts of Scripture. Martin Luther, for example, wanted to do away with Esther, James, Jude, Hebrews, and Revelation altogether. The only reason he couldn't do so was these books have enjoyed universal canonical status. Luther's own view of the law is suspect at best.

So we need to find out what is the underlying reason for WL's view of the Psalter. The root cause, I believe, is WL's misunderstanding of the word "law" in Psalm 1. The LXX translated the original Hebrew term "torah" as "nomos" (law) and this term got into Pauline literature as well. Unfortunately, "nomos" flattened the meaning of the word "torah" to just judicial regulations. Hence, WL equated the "law" in Psalm 1 to the Ten Commandments.

The fuller meaning of "torah" is "teaching". The Pentateuch is the Torah - the teachings of God. All the narratives in the Torah: creation, human sin, God's promise of redemption, the Abrahamic covenant, the exodus, the Decalogue, etc., are all "torah". They are God's teaching. The compilers organised the Psalter into 5 books to invite the readers to consider meditating upon these Psalms as equivalent to meditating upon the Torah. Longman & Dillard's "Introduction to the OT" calls the Psalms as the "microcosm of the teaching of the whole OT" (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 2006, p. 256).

The prevailing compilation theory held among scholars today (especially since Gerald H. Wilson's groundbreaking work - e.g., "The Editing of the Book of Psalms") is that Psalm 1 is added to the Psalter in the last redactional cycle by its final editors called the "Wisdom Editors". Psalm 1 was not meant to be a psalm by itself but rather served as an introduction or preface written by the editors to encourage the readers to meditate upon these other 149 Psalms day and night. Thus, to hold a low view of Psalm 1, understood in its original context, is to hold a low view of the entire Psalter. WL's interpretation of Psalm 1 is cringeworthy.

But, I digress... Let me get back to Psalm 2:

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

03-25-2015 05:43 AM

aron

Discussion of Psalm 2 (part 3 of 3)

Suppose I'm using Psalm 2 in my letter to the Singaporeans, and say, "Kiss the Son, lest He be angry, and you perish in the way", and then make the point that we're entering a divine romance. ("Brothers and sisters, we are going to get married to God!!!")Okay, fine. That's my subjective assessment of scripture, as it pertains to us all here, at this moment; that's my subjective response in the church today. I want to go into the meeting of my church and shout, "O, Lord Jesus, we want to kiss You!! Lord Jesus, we love You!!" Fine. But it's not the definitive assessment, i.e. "this equals that".

Many English translations show Psalm 2:12 signifying obedience, not a marriage covenant. In its context it has political overtones. So what WL said isn't 'wrong', per se, but if one wanted to say "this means that", one should present a balanced assessment, which is to acknowledge that (1) one's response is subjective, and not definitive, and (2) many others interpret the 'shadows and types' of OT text differently than I'm doing here.

So it's good to kiss the Son. We love him. But if we are engaged in explication, or teaching, of scripture, we should acknowledge our subjectivity, and strive for objectivity, by allowing for other interpretations to balance our own. The Psalms Life-Study didn't really do much of that at all: typically he'd muster a few 19th century references which could be lined up with his "God's economy" teachings. And thus a thin veneer of 'objectivity' was used to cover a writing which was almost completely subjective.

"So subjective is my Christ to me/Real in me, and rich and sweet". Yes, He is. That is wonderful; "Christ in me, the hope of glory". I have a news flash, however: He's also subjective in many others as well. Your "subjective Christ" should allow you to pay attention to others' teachings, as well as present your own subjective impressions; otherwise I wonder, to what "Christ" are you being subjected?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAqkjCrBLQU

03-25-2015 05:23 AM

aron

Discussion of Psalm 2 (part 2 of 3)

This is a kind of long post so it's in 3 parts. Back to the narrative:

Suppose for the sake of brevity I simply use 3 OT verses to being my letter to the Singaporeans. I'll start with Psalm 119:9 "I am a stranger here on earth". Then maybe a verse from Daniel, talking about captivity, then a verse from, say, Leviticus, or Deuteronomy. Something about obedience to God's commands. Then I present the situation as I perceive it among the Singaporeans who name Jesus. And it parallels much of the NT text. "Do not be unequally yoked with the world, and love not the world, etc."

Nothing wrong with that, right? Maybe it's what they need to hear today, who knows. As long as I don't make 2 critical errors. (1) is to claim my letter stands as definitive oracular revelation on par with scripture. The epistle to the Hebrews quotes scripture, and is also scripture, today, on par with what it quotes. Likewise Paul's writings, etc. So all Christians agree that the revelation contained in Hebrews is equal with the revelation of Psalms or Deuteronomy. Now, the Book of Mormon is an glaring example of this critical error. "Do not add to God's word", right? WL didn't say any of his writings supplanted scripture, although his "interpreted word" comes perilously close. But I'll cut him slack here - it's probably a by-product of being the sole minister of an exclusive group. Only 'one trumpet' is allowed, so Witness Lee's writings are de facto scripture, but not de jure scripture. Okay. Let's leave that one alone.

Error (2) is to use my writings to cut off scripture. This is where my complaint lies, with WL's Psalms exegesis. If someone wants to use OT revelation to discuss the Christian life today, they're already somewhat biased because unlike the writer of the Epistle to the Hebrews, they have an expanded canon, which includes explicitly Christian texts: the NT. So reliance on the OT isn't necessary; in fact the OT can essentially be ignored in common discussions, and often is (though I've argued here that it weakens the NT understanding, which was obviously based on common grasp of the OT, and even an appeal to it).

But the "Epistle to the LCs" (i.e. Life-Study of Psalms) said that these scriptures themselves were void of revelation. This is a grievous error, and should be called out. Just because I don't understand something (and believe me, there are vast swaths of OT text that I'm quite unfamiliar with) doesn't mean it's void of revelation. It just means that it is void of revelation for me, at present.

My point (finally!!!!) is that discussing scripture is subjective. I can say that "this means this to me", and this is okay. I can even say, "This means nothing to me" -- but my "this means that" shouldn't stand as definitive, unalterable presentation of God's oracle today; i.e. God's current speaking to the church, on par with the Epistle to the Hebrews or the seven epistles to the Asian churches in Revelation 2 and 3. And it certainly should not argue that ANY of scripture is lacking revelation. Then, if other writers want to discuss God's revelation of Jesus Christ, and what it means in Singapore today, they have essentially been told to ignore sections of scripture. I don't know what WL said about "I am a stranger on earth" from Psalm 119:9, for example, but I don't need to know to discuss it myself, and I certainly protest if he says that it was merely a vain, natural concept of a vain, fallen sinner, and is not indicative in any way of God's Christ. What nonsense! Sorry, but that's what it is. Nonsense. How can I characterize that as anything but? How can I possibly defend such a treatment of scripture?

Okay, now on to Psalm 2.

03-25-2015 04:55 AM

aron

Discussion of Psalm 2 (part 1 of 3)

Suppose I wanted to write a letter to the church in Singapore. To all the saints there, not just one group (whether or not it claims to stand for all is irrelevant – lots of groups claim lots of things, including being the sole receptacle of God’s present truth, and being the exclusive corporate expression of God on earth today). Or suppose I wanted to write to all the Chinese Christians in Singapore. Like, for example, “To the Hebrews”; I would write “To the Chinese” (or to the Australians, or whatever – I'm just using Singaporeans, here).

So I might write, “To the angel of the church in Singapore”, or “To the Chinese believers in Singapore”, or whatever. Then, suppose I started off my letter with, say, 8 verses of the OT, 6 of which were from the Psalms. Look at the beginning of “To the Hebrews”, for example (NIV):

Quote:

In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.

For to which of the angels did God ever say,
“You are my Son;
today I have become your Father”?

Or again,
“I will be his Father,
and he will be my Son”?

And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,
“Let all God’s angels worship him.”
In speaking of the angels he says,
“He makes his angels spirits,
and his servants flames of fire.”

But about the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”

He also says,
“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands. They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment. You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed. But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.”

To which of the angels did God ever say,
“Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet”?

Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation? We must pay the most careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away. For since the message spoken through angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment, how shall we escape if we ignore so great a salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.
It is not to angels that he has subjected the world to come, about which we are speaking.

But there is a place where someone has testified:
“What is mankind that you are mindful of them,a son of man that you care for him?
You made them a little lower than the angels;
you crowned them with glory and honor and put everything under their feet.”

In putting everything under them, God left nothing that is not subject to them. Yet at present we do not see everything subject to them. But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. In bringing many sons and daughters to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through what he suffered. Both the one who makes people holy and those who are made holy are of the same family.

So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters, He says,
“I will declare your name to my brothers and sisters;
in the assembly I will sing your praises.”

And again,
“I will put my trust in him.”

And again he says,
“Here am I, and the children God has given me.”

In the first 17 verses of the Epistle to the Hebrews (remember that this was probably written without chapters and verses) the author quoted 12 verses from Psalms, one verse from 2 Samuel, one verse from Deuteronomy, and 2 verses from Isaiah, by my count.

Likewise, suppose I began my epistle to the Chinese saints in Singapore with such a barrage of OT quotes, went on to make my argument. Now, because we have the NT, to simply go to the OT as the sole scriptural basis of my presentation to the saints of God would be superfluous at best, and harmful at worst. Where is the NT revelation of Jesus Christ, in all this? The writer of Hebrews, however, didn’t have that option. Really, all there was for “scripture” at that time was what we call the OT. So the appeal to scripture in that way was arguably fitting. In fact, if there's a universal theme in the NT it is arguably this: an appeal to the OT.

But if I simply made my argument, today, as an understanding based on OT alone, as long as it jibed with NT canon, (whether or not I explicitly cited the NT), it would not be categorically wrong as a Christian letter. What would be wrong is if my letter to the Singaporeans was held to be “God’s speaking” as if it were on par with scripture itself. “Do not add to God’s word, lest He reprove thee, and you be found a liar.” Right? We all know this.

And if my letter obviated God’s word, by superseding some (either implicitly or explicitly) by calling it “vain”, or “natural” or “fallen human concepts” (you see where I am going here), then that epistle of mine should be looked at as radioactive, or nearly so, by any Christian recipients. Suppose in my epistle, I said that some of the OT was essentially invalidated as revelation, because the author expressed love for God’s law, which Paul had said could save no one. Or, in the NT, I criticize Peter’s quotation of Psalms was “low”, versus Paul’s “high revelation” in his epistles.

That, to me, approaches the warning in Rev 22:18,19 (cf Deut 4:2). Do not take away from God’s word.

03-22-2015 07:21 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

(Continuing my thoughts from post #431 - the previous post):

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

But in actuality, from a 'recursive' perspective, He was the reigning king all along! God furnished proof to all by raising Him from the dead and giving Him glory, but all along He was the King.

The reason that He was able to escape the clutches of death while in Hades was because when He was on earth, death could not touch Him. "Behold, the ruler of this world is coming, and in Me he has nothing." And the reason that He was able to be untouched by sin, in this world, was because He was the incarnated Holy One of God. So He reigned on earth because He reigned in Heaven. And He went into captivity itself (death and Hades), and took it captive, because He had done the same thing on earth. One was physical, one was spiritual, but it was the same thing: it was recursive; it was reality folded back upon itself. You can see different 'levels' or aspects of the same reality.

Quote:

No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man..

So we look at "heaven", and "earth" and "under the earth/Hades/Hell" as distinct and separated realms, but when the King came, everything was subject to Him. I think some of the classic "ruling Psalms" (#2,#8, #110 etc) open windows into this narrative element. It doesn't matter if you are the lowest or the highest, when the King comes you must acknowledge God's sovereignty in His Christ. "It is finished. God has spoken".

03-22-2015 07:07 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by InOmnibusCaritas

Let's talk about how best to present Psalm 2 that will cause an average LC member to pause and think.

I think that people like a story; they like narrative structure. So how to present Psalm 2 within a larger narrative structure? I felt that WL had Psalm 2 within a rather disjointed and unsatisfactory structure. According to his narrative, Psalm 1 had been merely an expose of the vanity of the "natural" psalm-writer, and Psalm 2 by contrast showed us the Son. And so on, back and forth-- typically either WL would see the vain psalmist or the NT believer "enjoying Christ", and occasionally there would be a revelation of Christ Himself. Usually this revelation of Christ that WL acknowledged in the Psalms was, not coincidentally, because there was already an existing NT citation. How could he call the NT vain (though he did, with Peter's reference)?

I believe the Psalms do have at least somewhat of a narrative structure, at least at the ends. The first psalm seems deliberately chosen, showing two paths, the path of the righteous and the path of the wicked. Then at the end, there are 5 "celebratory psalms" which clearly (to me) are meant to be a capstone on the whole affair. So what lies in between the introductory word of Psalm 1 and the praises of Psalm 146-150? Did the compilers of this book intend anything by their arrangement?

I think maybe so. Psalm 2 has the "heathens raging" against God and His king. So "kiss the Son" in this context is for them to come under the subjection of God's anointed. Although David had conquered, the real story of peaceful subjection seems to be with Solomon. David was a man of bloodshed, while Solomon was a man of peaceful rule: momentarily, the heathens stopped raging. Solomon pictured the true Son of the King who ruled wisely, and to kiss the son in this context is to bow the knee and render obedience. I notice that many translations have "submit" or "do homage". Certainly that is in line with the narrative.

Then Psalm 3 has the rebellious son, Absalom, and the nobles who deserted David and joined the new faction. David, according to the superscription, wrote this while hiding in a cave. Interestingly, here he wrote that he had the power to lay his life down (and sleep), and the power to raise it up again (to wake up).

Now, I haven't really gone beyond that, but it seems to me that the mass of NT citations of the Psalms are of the incarnated, suffering Jesus. There are some referencing resurrection, ascension, and enthronement, but a good deal of it is the Jesus that the disciples saw daily for 3+ years. "Then his disciples remembered where it was written, 'Zeal of Your house has eaten Me up'", etc.

And this is what really interested me: that there may be a 'recursive' element to the Psalms. There are multiple layers of meaning within certain passages, which may touch on multiple points in the NT narrative of Jesus. Psalm 8 says "You have made him lower than the angels, You have crowned him with glory and honor." We would probably say that the first section is the incarnation of the man Jesus, and the second section is the post-crucifixion Jesus who has been raised and has ascended to the Father.

But in actuality, from a 'recursive' perspective, He was the reigning king all along! God furnished proof to all by raising Him from the dead and giving Him glory, but all along He was the King. Yes, He was temporarily "lower than the angels" in his human flesh, but what did the Roman Centurion say to Jesus? "I also am a man under authority, and I have servants under me, and I say to this one, 'go'..." How do you think Jesus healed the Centurion's servant by just speaking a word? Now, Jesus was "under" God in Psalm 1; He was obedient. In Psalm 2 this is contrasted to the raging Gentiles who don't know God or His Anointed. The King is their hope, to be connected back to the Father. Come and recognize the Son, and be subject to Him, and live. The curse of Adam and Cain will be lifted. This is your path home to the Father. The Roman Centurion recognized the real, heavenly "Caesar", or king. It was Jesus the Nazarene.

The whole "romance" thing, in this place, seems quite misplaced. It's rather about being saved. Yes we love Him and want to be with Him forever. But Psalm 2, as part of the narrative, is not about romance.

Then, as I said, Psalm 3 has a rebellion. The True King, now rejected and in exile, lies Himself down in a cave, to sleep, and to rise again. Very interesting. I mean, don't you think this is an interesting narrative? I find it fascinating.

03-21-2015 01:29 PM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by InOmnibusCaritas

The actual context of kissing the son [in Psalm 2] is basically "submit to the king's rule". More like "pledge allegiance" and "kiss the ring". It has no romantic connotation.

This in itself doesn't disprove the teaching of the divine romance so no truth is compromised. Just that this verse doesn't teach the divine romance, that's all. The strength of this one is that it's exegetically clear. It's near impossible, if correctly explained, for LC members to deny its clear meaning.

In my cursory review of Psalms I noticed an interesting thing in the beginning of the book. Psalm 1 shows, to me, obedience. Blessing follows obeying God. It doesn't matter that we are all sinners, because we the sinners see the Obedient One, and are saved. We the wicked serpents see the Bronze Serpent raised on the cross, and are saved. In Psalm 1 we may see Christ and be similarly saved. We recognize His blessedness and His obedience. "His leaf shall not wither", indeed.

Psalm 2 shows the reigning king. Why is he reigning? Because God put him there. He is the Righteous One of God's good pleasure. And we Christians believe that this typifies Jesus, the sole obedient Son. "Go away! What do you want with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are--the Holy One of God!"(Luke 4:34 NIV) Jesus is the singular Holy One of God. And yes, “kiss the son” in this context means recognize the authority of the Anointed Son (i.e. the Christ). Psalm 2 doesn’t introduce the “Divine Romance” as much as the recognition of divinely appointed authority.

Then, Psalm 3 shows rebellion, from within the king’s house. Absalom and some of David's nobles refused to "kiss the son", God's anointed. I was amazed to find rebellion following so hard upon the establishment of the kingship in Psalm 2.

03-21-2015 11:07 AM

InOmnibusCaritas

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

And notice bro IOC, that, Lee floats the word "enjoyment" into the Bible meaning on the back of the word "trinity." It's a brilliant sleight of hand (or mind) move. Lee was no dummy there. It supports all the calling, fist pumping, neck vain popping, and crazy emotional aspect of the local church, and thus supports Lee's efforts to build a movement around himself. The "enjoyment" ultimately meant: Check your mind at the door, and just follow.

In the LC it's not "kiss the son," but, "kiss Witness Lee."

I got the boot because I wouldn't kiss Witness Lee.

Lots of evangelicals use the term "enjoyment", especially those influenced by John Piper. The crazy emotional stuffs are quite mild compared to the Pentecostals. So I'm ok with both "enjoyment" as a genuine experience of Christ and the fist pumpings, neck vain poppings as genuine expressions of the faith.

But, yes, the need to justify the term "enjoyment" via the "trinity" is very unnecessary. The theology of enjoyment/satisfaction "Christian hedonism" (See John Piper's "Desiring God") is able to stand on its own two feet without resorting to backdoor tactics and fancy footwork. For someone like Lee, who majors in "enjoyment" from Gen-Rev, this was just plain sloppy.

As for the need to kiss Witness Lee to be in LC, I'm afraid you are spot on. I do not see how anyone can critique Witness Lee and still be welcome in an LSM-aligned LC.

But we digress. Let's talk about how best to present Psalm 2 that will cause an average LC member to pause and think.

03-21-2015 08:41 AM

awareness

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by InOmnibusCaritas

Yes, thank you bro. Awareness.

I'm trying to find the soft spots where LC members may be amenable to be shown the truth that is contrary to Lee's teachings without feeling entirely threatened (and thus turned off).

We need to find the chinks in the armour. I thought the Marcan priority and the synoptic problem was a good place to start. It's a minor issue that allows LC members to be a bit more relaxed in accepting that the RcV's not update with scholarship. Some might just say, "Well, it's just dates. Doesn't affect the truth." That's the response I want because it doesn't threaten them but allow them to be aware that LSM is not 100% perfect.

Psalm 2's kiss the son is another case in point. Lee ties this phrase kiss the son to "enjoyment" of Christ. Love. The Divine Romance.

The actual context of kissing the son is basically "submit to the king's rule". More like "pledge allegiance" and "kiss the ring". It has no romantic connotation.

This in itself doesn't disprove the teaching of the divine romance so no truth is compromised. Just that this verse doesn't teach the divine romance, that's all. The strength of this one is that it's exegetically clear. It's near impossible, if correctly explained, for LC members to deny its clear meaning.

I'll probably start my serious writings on this Psalm.

03-21-2015 07:37 AM

InOmnibusCaritas

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

03-21-2015 05:52 AM

awareness

Re: "Kiss the Son" in Psalm 2

Quote:

Originally Posted by InOmnibusCaritas

What did Witness Lee teach is the meaning of "Kiss the Son" in Psalm 2?

I realise that there is even a member in this forum that goes by the screen KissTheSon.

I. THE REVELATION OF THE PSALMS BEGINNING
WITH THE PSALMIST STRESSING THE LAW AND
WITH THE SPIRIT TURNING THE PSALMIST TO CHRIST

The revelation of the Psalms begins with the psalmist stressing the law and with the Spirit turning the psalmist to Christ (Psa. 1—2). When the psalmist began in Psalm 1 by stressing the law, he was going in the wrong direction. In the first psalm, the psalmist seeking after God was driving on the wrong highway, so the Spirit came in to turn him to the right way.

In Psalm 2 the psalmist began to enjoy Christ—to take refuge in this Christ and to kiss this Christ (v. 12). The highest and best enjoyment of human life is kissing. When a child is born, the parents and grandparents enjoy kissing this child. If a person had no one whom he could kiss, he would surely be one of the most miserable people on earth. Psalm 2:12 commands us to "kiss the son." Kissing Christ is the enjoyment of Christ.

Some may wonder where the word enjoyment is in the Bible concerning our relationship with Christ. Although this word is not in the Bible, the fact of the enjoyment of Christ is there. It is the same with the words trinity and triune. Although these words are not in the Bible, the early church fathers discovered the fact in the Bible that our God is triune, that He is the Divine Trinity. In like manner, the word enjoyment is not found in the Scriptures, but the fact is there. In Psalm 2 we are told to kiss the son. The Son is a pleasant title. Kissing the Son is enjoying the Son.

The enjoyment of Christ in the Psalms begins with kissing the Son in Psalm 2. This enjoyment continues in Psalm 8, in which the psalmist declares, "How excellent is Your name/In all the earth!" (vv. 1, 9). Psalm 16 is also full of enjoyment. Verse 11 of this psalm says, "You will make known to Me the path of life;/In Your presence is fullness of joy;/In Your right hand there are pleasures forever." Psalm 22 gives us a very vivid picture of Christ's death on the cross. It also shows us His church-producing resurrection (v. 22). In Christ's resurrection His God is our God, His Father is our Father (John 20:17), and we are His brothers. The apostle Paul quoted Psalm 22:22 in Hebrews 2:12, pointing out that the Lord's brothers are the church.

Psalm 23 is full of the enjoyment of Christ as our Shepherd. Many Christians love Psalm 23, but not many have the realization that in this psalm they need to kiss Christ as the Shepherd.
http://www.ministrybooks.org/SearchM...?id=13EC03F3C3
__________________

03-21-2015 12:41 AM

InOmnibusCaritas

"Kiss the Son" in Psalm 2

What did Witness Lee teach is the meaning of "Kiss the Son" in Psalm 2?

I realise that there is even a member in this forum that goes by the screen KissTheSon.

03-18-2015 02:57 PM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by OBW

The more I think about it, the more I realize that it is not that there is not the very spiritual to be seen, but rather that we ignore what seems common. But the bulk is common. It is exactly what Lee saw. His problem is that he has no appreciation for the common because it is not lofty enough...

I think that's what I alluded to when I wrote, "To the pure God shows Himself as pure, but to the shallow God shows Himself as shallow." God is not common, nor shallow, nor is His word, but if you have a shallow (arbitrarily simplistic) hermeneutical template you might end up making that claim. You might even give messages and sell books, making that claim. But I think it says more about your theology than about the word.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OBW

And despite his claim of having all the riches, he was also missing the riches that were there. So he missed both.

Yes, suddenly in the Psalms the "allegory well" dried up, and the "typology fountain" stopped gushing forth. Now, it's possible that there were no riches there in the word, but it's also possible that the WL ministry was running on man-made steam, and simply ran out. He wasn't able to linger there, waiting for the arrival of the Spirit. So he simply moved on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OBW

He was not only blind to the Christ to be found, but to the spiritual value of the common that he DID find.

In other words, he did not have a spiritual view of the Bible. Just a skewed view of spirituality.

And that is one of the serious flaws of the inner-life camp of Christianity. They tend to ignore everything that is not our inner-life landscape. They emphasize the secular-spiritual divide rather than diminish it.

There are many, many testimonies in the Bible of those who didn't outwardly espouse theology, at least in the record, but manifested reality. Sister Dorcas, etc, etc... they were small, and common, but were connected to the well of living water. And somewhere, back in time, WL probably did have a mountain-top experience. But by the time he got to us it was covered over by layers of theology. The inner life simply became a teaching and a practice. And consequently, if up became down and in became out and black became white, well that's what "life" was telling him. And who were we to say?

03-18-2015 05:02 AM

OBW

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

Anyway, I just told God that I wanted to see. So I began to see. (Emphasis on 'began'). Then, when WL said there was nothing to see in the text I got a little miffed. But it's important not to become obsessed, and over-compensate for someone else's perceived lack. That's not our calling. Not why we're here.

And there is much to see.

The more I think about it, the more I realize that it is not that there is not the very spiritual to be seen, but rather that we ignore what seems common. But the bulk is common. It is exactly what Lee saw. His problem is that he has no appreciation for the common because it is not lofty enough. And despite his claim of having all the riches, he was also missing the riches that were there. So he missed both. He was not only blind to the Christ to be found, but to the spiritual value of the common that he DID find.

In other words, he did not have a spiritual view of the Bible. Just a skewed view of spirituality.

And that is one of the serious flaws of the inner-life camp of Christianity. They tend to ignore everything that is not our inner-life landscape. They emphasize the secular-spiritual divide rather than diminish it.

03-18-2015 04:34 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

As far as I'm concerned if bro Aron sees Christ in every verse in the Psalms more power to him ... even if I can't see 'em.

Well OBW is right: doesn't matter how much "Christ" you pull out of the text. Of itself, it means nothing. Words without actions. At the same time, acting without seeing Jesus going before is difficult at best. He isn't called the "Captain" for nothing. But OBW was presenting the necessary corollary to my "seeing Jesus in the text". It needed to be put out there.

Anyway, I just told God that I wanted to see. So I began to see. (Emphasis on 'began'). Then, when WL said there was nothing to see in the text I got a little miffed. But it's important not to become obsessed, and over-compensate for someone else's perceived lack. That's not our calling. Not why we're here.

03-17-2015 05:33 PM

awareness

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by OBW

Don't take my words too literally. Despite my tendency to think that we often over-spiritualize things, if someone doesn't at least think about things that way, we will miss what really is there. So carry on.

As far as I'm concerned if bro Aron sees Christ in every verse in the Psalms more power to him ... even if I can't see 'em.

03-17-2015 03:41 PM

OBW

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

Thanks for those correctives. They're necessary; otherwise one might become "little Jack Horner" sitting in the corner, where instead of pulling out plums from a Christmas pie, one is extracting "visions of Christ" from the Bible. But what Christ is it, absent the actual life that is lived?

Excellent points, and received with gratitude.

03-17-2015 03:00 PM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by OBW

At times, I think that it seems you are as desperate to find lots of deep spirituality in the Psalms as Lee was to dismiss them as not even the Word of God. ... Those who are truly disciples — those who believe and follow (obey) — will know the truth, not those who dig through the scriptures for it.

03-17-2015 10:56 AM

OBW

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

I understand your point about context. Yet Psalm 91 is arguably about this life, as well: "He will give His angels charge concerning you, lest you strike your foot against a stone." The stones in Psalm 91 are found in this life, just like the bones that would not be broken in Psalm 34 are in this life. Yet there is an unseen, eternal world behind the visible (see e.g. 2 Cor 4:18). This is a Christian truism. So there are various levels of reality to be perceived in scripture. Which levels WL essentially chose to ignore, in examining the Psalms. And at times he had to strain to ignore them. Why? Puzzling.

Something really strange about WL's Psalm 34 exegesis is that he's saying that the Psalmist is selfish, thinking about his own well-being on earth, and suddenly in verse 20 has a "squirrel!" moment when he perceives Christ. "Not one of His bones will be broken." Then the psalmist immediately goes back to "fallen" and "natural" concepts. And that's it - no shadows, no types, no signs. Nothing spiritual.

In Psalm 91:16, the RecV has a cross-reference for the "long life", back to Psalm 21:4, which promises "length of days, forever and ever", which Psalm was also panned by WL as "natural". Yet there WL's RecV has a cross-reference to Revelation 11:15, of "his kingdom will be forever and ever." Which theme of course is throughout the scripture prophecies, from Daniel to Isaiah. And here is the angel speaking to Mary in Luke 1:30-33

. . . .

Yet WL said there's no connection with the "many long days" promised to King David in Psalm 34. Okay... hmm...

Maybe the real analysis is that both ways of looking at it are at least partly flawed.

Lee considers so much of Psalm 34 to be just human selfishness with fallen and natural concepts. The alternative you propose is that it is all so spiritual and lofty. Maybe the reality is that the seeking of God in any way by fallen, natural man is exactly what God wants. He does not want worshipers with no acts, and does not want acts with no worship. But the revelation of God's interaction with David, a flawed man, reveals his mercy, grace, love, etc.

David's poor prayer may be just that, poor. But poor is not bad. The poor in spirit are blessed. Lee would rewrite Matthew 5 to say that cursed are the poor in spirit for they should be written out of the canon of scripture. Yet while there are surely types and examples to be found all over the OT, everything is not a goldmine of hidden treasures. A poor prayer is the honest approach to God from a low place. Those who say they are never in a low place are liars. And those who find remarkable, rich metaphors and types in virtually every passage are seeking more than Christ.

I fully respect and agree with the view that Christ is all over the scripture. But the way He is there is not always in the minutia, but in the broad picture. It is in the character of people who have been humbled before God and are seeking to do His will. Surely there are some items of foreshadowing that are important to the Jews. Many of those were intentionally included so that when Jesus came, the preponderance of fulfilment of those things should make those with open eyes see their Messiah. But was that so we would go digging to find them all ourselves, or to shepherd them to Christ?

I am not saying that they are not real or noteworthy. But what is our calling in this life? To appreciate the intricacy with which the scripture has interwoven so many hidden gems all over the place? Or to live in unity as we love God and love others? To practice the righteousness of God while refraining from forcing that righteousness on others in a less-than-loving way. I am not talking about ignoring prayer or gathering for worship. But the bulk of our living is in the everyday.

And the everyday is just as spiritual as the gathering and the prayer. Otherwise we are failures at following and living. While everyone was to pray, note that the calls to meet we significantly less than any of us practice. It was not weekly. Rest was weekly. Gathering for meeting was only a few times a year. I am not suggesting that we need to meet less. Rather that we need a different perspective on what it is to worship and serve. And a different perspective on the purpose of the meeting. The Christian life is mostly not in meetings, prayer, or Bible study. Even collectively they are less than half our waking hours. And while se do need "recharging," none of those things "live the Christian life." That mostly happens the rest of the time. And it is in very common, poor things.

I know that I have gone a little astray from your purpose in this thread. But it was to setup a different view of things. At times, I think that it seems you are as desperate to find lots of deep spirituality in the Psalms as Lee was to dismiss them as not even the Word of God. Reality seems to be that Psalms are mostly a prayer book. And they are often about real life and not "spiritual" things (in a secular is not spiritual world). And that is what got recorded. Yes, there are some special prophecies hidden here and there. But mostly we see real men praying to and praising a real God.

Yes, countering Lee's "they are not all really the Word of God" position is important. But the correction is not necessarily to "they are all full of deep metaphorical and typological meaning." Instead, much of them are full of the real problems of real people praying to God, and real praises of real people for real appreciation of God. It seems that if we cannot come to a real appreciation of that, it would seem that trying to dig for the hidden nuggets is to miss the first importance. Like looking for a gold medal without running the race. Or getting a degree without attending the classes and doing the homework.

In our case, there is a crown of righteousness laid up. But it comes as the result of living this life, not just having great appreciation for more aspects of God, or ignoring this life and pining for the next. Those who are truly disciples — those who believe and follow (obey) — will know the truth, not those who dig through the scriptures for it.

03-17-2015 05:53 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by VoiceInWilderness

Ps 91 seems to be about eternal life. Ps 34 from the context, and from the way Peter quoted it, seems to be this life.

I understand your point about context, but Psalm 91 is arguably about this life, as well: "He'll give His angels charge concerning you, lest you strike your foot against a stone." The stones in Psalm 91 are found in this life, just like the unbroken bones in Psalm 34 are in this life. Yet there's an unseen, eternal world behind the visible (see e.g. 2 Cor 4:18). We all know this. There are various levels of reality to be perceived in scripture, which levels WL seemed determined to ignore, in examining the Psalms. At times he had to strain to ignore them! It's puzzling that a merchandiser of the word, with an opportunity to generate life study messages ("I could give a conference on this one verse!" he'd tell us) just dismissed the whole thing out of hand. In his entire Psalm 34 exegesis he said that the Psalmist was selfish, thinking about his own well-being on earth, and suddenly in verse 20 the psalmist a "squirrel!" moment and perceived the coming Christ: "Not one of His bones will be broken." Then, according to WL, the psalmist immediately went back to "fallen" and "natural" concepts. And that's it - no shadows, no types, no signs. Nothing spiritual to be discerned. No hidden treasure.

For example, in Psalm 91:16, the RecV cross-references "long life" back to Psalm 21:4, which promises the psalmist "length of days, forever and ever". Psalm 21 was also panned by WL as "natural". Yet there, his RecV has a cross-reference to Revelation 11:15, where it says of Jesus, "his kingdom will be forever and ever." This theme of course runs through the scripture prophecies, from Daniel to Isaiah. Here's the angel speaking to Mary in Luke 1:30-33:

Quote:

But the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God. You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.”

Yet WL said there's no connection with the "many long days" promised to King David in Psalm 34; that, he said, was merely human concepts, natural and vain. To which I paraphrase 2 Samuel 22:27: "To the pure You show yourself pure, but to the shallow You show yourself shallow."

03-16-2015 06:24 PM

HERn

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by VoiceInWilderness

Ps 91 seems to be about eternal life. Ps 34 from the context, and from the way Peter quoted it, seems to be this life. There is nothing "low" about that. True spirituality is down to earth. This was a big lack in WL's teaching, especially after 1984. Titus Chu said, There is no such thing as "low" truth or "high" truth. That helped me. In the Bible there is just "truth", no "truths" or "a truth".

And there are not two gospels either! How can anyone have the gall to call the Lord of All's sacrificial death a low gospel? I don't think Paul ever made such an inference.

03-16-2015 06:16 PM

VoiceInWilderness

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

Here is WL talking about Psalm 34:

Now here is Psalm 91 (NIV):

Now is this vain writing? Or is Psalm 91 possibly revelatory of Christ? It's quoted in the gospel (Luke 4:10), by Jesus' adversary, as pertaining to Him (Jesus). Was the devil mistaken, or did he use the true revelation to attempt to try Jesus, and pry Him loose from the Father? So, then: what is the 'long life' promised in Psalm 91? Is it merely soulish, and natural, or revelatory of Jesus Christ? Isn't there a possible spiritual view here? Why dismiss the possibility out of hand, as WL apparently did, with Psalm 34, saying "David is not being spiritual"? And conversely, if Psalm 91 is in fact revealing something of Christ, then why isn't Psalm 34, and 18, etc? Why use different interpretive schemes for Psalms used in the NT versus Psalm sections that weren't quoted by the NT? What NT writer said, "Only these cited Psalms are useful, and no more"? Strange, really; I just can't see it. Do LSM apologists believe that if I read these commentaries prayerfully, I will somehow get it? The more I look at it, the less I get it.

03-16-2015 04:46 PM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Here is WL talking about Psalm 34:

Quote:

In Psalm 34 David spoke of the way to fear God (vv. 11-16; 1 Pet. 3:10-12). Verses 12-16 say, ‘‘Who is the man who desires life, / Who loves having days in order to see good? / Guard your tongue from evil, / And your lips from speaking deceit. / Turn away from evil and do good; / Seek peace and pursue it. / The eyes of Jehovah are set toward the righteous, / And His ears, toward their cry. / The face of Jehovah is against those who do evil, / To cut off the memory of them from the earth.’’ These verses were quoted by Peter in 1 Peter 3:10-12, but Paul did not quote such a word. Paul’s vision of the New Testament economy was clearer than that of all the other apostles.

When David asked, ‘‘Who is the man who desires life, / Who loves having days in order to see good?’’ he was not talking about the eternal life but about the physical life. David was a great saint in the Old Testament, and Peter was one of the great apostles in the New Testament, but I do not believe that what David said here is spiritual. Even among us, who dares ask the Lord to give him long days that he may enjoy many good things?

David said that if we love having days in order to see good, we should guard our tongue from evil and our lips from speaking deceit. But who has ever succeeded in guarding his tongue from evil? What David spoke here was according to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Verse 15 says, ‘‘The eyes of Jehovah are set toward the righteous, / And His ears, toward their cry.’’ But who is righteous on this earth? Paul said that not one is righteous (Rom. 3:10), and Isaiah said that our righteousnesses are like filthy rags (Isa. 64:6). If we depend upon our righteousness to enjoy God’s eyes and ears being set toward us, we will enjoy nothing, because we have no righteousness of our own.

Now here is Psalm 91 (NIV):

Quote:

14 “Because he loves me,” says the Lord, “I will rescue him;
I will protect him, for he acknowledges my name.
15 He will call on me, and I will answer him;
I will be with him in trouble,
I will deliver him and honor him.
16 With long life I will satisfy him
and show him my salvation.”

Now is this vain writing? Or is Psalm 91 possibly revelatory of Christ? It's quoted in the gospel (Luke 4:10), by Jesus' adversary, as pertaining to Him (Jesus). Was the devil mistaken, or did he use the true revelation to attempt to try Jesus, and pry Him loose from the Father? So, then: what is the 'long life' promised in Psalm 91? Is it merely soulish, and natural, or revelatory of Jesus Christ? Isn't there a possible spiritual view here? Why dismiss the possibility out of hand, as WL apparently did, with Psalm 34, saying "David is not being spiritual"? And conversely, if Psalm 91 is in fact revealing something of Christ, then why isn't Psalm 34, and 18, etc? Why use different interpretive schemes for Psalms used in the NT versus Psalm sections that weren't quoted by the NT? What NT writer said, "Only these cited Psalms are useful, and no more"? Strange, really; I just can't see it. Do LSM apologists believe that if I read these commentaries prayerfully, I will somehow get it? The more I look at it, the less I get it.

03-14-2015 02:57 PM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by VoiceInWilderness

The Hunky Dory parable helped us to enjoy the word. It eventually led to problems because we didn't go on from there. There was this unwritten concept that we should just eat the Word but not try to do any of it unless the leadership said to.

Right. We should pray-read Paul's epistles, including the parts where he encouraged us to sing Psalms, remember the poor, etc. But if leadership isn't actually recommending that we do any of it, we'd better not take initiative. Yep, it's all Hunky Dory in LC-land: we can pray-read it, then we can ignore it.

03-14-2015 12:36 PM

OBW

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Igzy

That's a good way of putting it. Someone should make that their signature.

I'll let someone else do it. But it is a good idea.

And I wish that I could claim authorship on the quote. I read the jist of it in a book on logic a few years back. It was obviously not talking about Lee, but it fits quite well.

03-13-2015 11:43 AM

Cal

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by OBW

This is the problem with Lee. It is a system that used truth to carry water for lies.

That's a good way of putting it. Someone should make that their signature.

03-13-2015 10:36 AM

OBW

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

But where does Paul write something like, "The promises of faithfulness, endurance, and obedience in Scriptures were vain, because all men are sinners"? I don't see this kind of reception by Paul, or anywhere in the NT. So what gave WL the temerity to put forth such a platform? And please note that this was not a small side issue. In Psalm 1 WL demarcates the existence of "natural" OT scripture, and proceeds to gut the Psalms. The large majority of them are either called "natural" or are ignored.

The only thing that I can think of is that WL's status as "today's oracle" gave him the boldness to depart from the NT's use of Psalms so radically. He could go where none had gone, because he was a receptacle of the revelation of God. Even when this so-called revelation was to tell us that Scripture itself lacked revelation.

This is surely a major part of his delusion. But too often we think that he only came to this conclusion starting somewhere in the mid-late 70s. Or in the mid-late 80s. Or in the 90s.

I submit that he fully believed in the teaching and position of "today's oracle" and what we came to know of as the MOTA all the way back to Nee's teaching of these things in the late 40s. And once Nee was imprisoned and Lee had fled to Taiwan, he began to act as if he was exactly that - the in challengeable, Oracle of God in our midst.

(And the fact that the other disciples of Nee, like Kwang (sp?), say nothing about Lee is that despite the fact that they are not submitting to Lee, they are under the hold of two things — a culture of reverence for those who are your elders, and a teaching that created "the one.")

Oh, we did not see that at first in the US. He had to build us up to that teaching. It took some time. But for every teaching that we consider positive that we learned from Lee, there was a worm in it because it was part of the system he used to capture us to be the believers in the MOTA.

(I will also submit that Lee might have been waiting to take full command on the title until it was clear that Nee had died.)

This is the problem with Lee. It is a system that used truth to carry water for lies. And every time that we who think we know the difference comment positively on what we got from the LRC (no matter how true it is to make those comments) we reinforce the lies that tag along for the ride. And it is those who have not seen through the lies who are harmed.

03-13-2015 05:56 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Romans 15:3 For even Christ did not please himself but, as it is written: “The insults of those who insult you have fallen on me.” 4 For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through the endurance taught in the Scriptures and the encouragement they provide we might have hope.

Paul quotes Psalm 69, then uses that to make a general point about scripture. "Everything written in the past was to teach us, so that through the endurance taught in Scriptures and the encouragement they give us, we would have hope". According to Paul, we see in OT scripture the endurance of Christ, who bore insults on behalf of God, and this vision teaches us, encourages us, and give us hope.

But where does Paul write something like, "The promises of faithfulness, endurance, and obedience in Scriptures were vain, because all men are sinners"? I don't see this kind of reception by Paul, or anywhere in the NT. So what gave WL the temerity to put forth such a platform? And please note that this was not a small side issue. In Psalm 1 WL demarcates the existence of "natural" OT scripture, and proceeds to gut the Psalms. The large majority of them are either called "natural" or are ignored.

The only thing that I can think of is that WL's status as "today's oracle" gave him the boldness to depart from the NT's use of Psalms so radically. He could go where none had gone, because he was a receptacle of the revelation of God. Even when this so-called revelation was to tell us that Scripture itself lacked revelation. Perhaps I am just talking myself into a corner here, but the more I look at what WL did, the less I like it. First, there is nothing to support it but his own suppositions, and second he's saying that some Scriptures, rather than teaching us and encouraging us, are rather showing us the vanity of the human endeavour? In other words, "My teachings are not vain, but revelatory; however the teachings in the Bible are often vain human concepts."

03-11-2015 06:02 AM

Ohio

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

And he, our "super-apostle", resolutely refused to "see Jesus" in spite of clear and repeated NT precedence.

Everything in the NT that I can see, i.e. WL's vaunted "whole view of scripture" consistently points to this kind of interpretive theme. But he was incapable of even entertaining the idea. What drew him so far afield? What caused his eyes to venture so far away from Jesus Christ? And where was the "life" in this Life Study?

In Lee's obsession to differ from all of Christianity, he could not "see Jesus" while struggling to "find Christ as life."

What drew him so far afield? It must be pride and her sisters, arrogance, exclusivism, and elitism.

03-11-2015 05:19 AM

Ohio

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by HERn

Right-on bro Aron. Your post brought to mind that Paul referred to so-called "super apostles" who must have thought pretty highly of themselves and their teaching to try to bring the gentile believers under the law.

2 Corinthians 11:5 I don’t think that those “super apostles” are any better than I am.

2 Corinthians 12:11 I have been talking like a fool, but you made me do it. You people are the ones who should say good things about me. I am worth nothing, but those “super apostles” are not worth any more than I am!
Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
Copyright © 2006 by World Bible Translation Center

Nothing can exceed the cummulative revalation given to Paul. If Jesus didn't say it, and if Paul didn't say it, and if Peter, John and James didn't say it, then who in heaven's name is WL to say it? Maybe a super-apostle wanting to build a following?

For Paul to visit the LC's today (and in those early days we would talk about which church he would send his letters to in each city), he would surely refer to their leaders as "Super Blendeds."

03-11-2015 04:57 AM

aron

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by HERn

Nothing can exceed the cumulative revelation given to Paul. If Jesus didn't say it, and if Paul didn't say it, and if Peter, John and James didn't say it, then who in heaven's name is WL to say it? Maybe a super-apostle wanting to build a following?

Did Jesus say, "Man does not live by bread alone, but by some of the words proceeding out of the mouth of God"? No; by ALL the words proceeding out... all scripture is profitable, not just some of it.

Did Peter give a speech in Acts 2 about David's "natural concepts" when David wrote that God wouldn't let his flesh see corruption? Did Peter say, "That natural David, always focused on the flesh" ...?

Or was there a deeper level? I say yes - Peter was looking deeper, beyond the mere surface. But later, when Peter alluded to deeper spiritual things, in quoting Psalm 34, WL said that the Psalmist was being soulish, and Peter lacked vision to recognize this! So WL dissed both the prophet and the apostle! And he, our "super-apostle", resolutely refused to "see Jesus" in spite of clear and repeated NT precedence. If ever I saw an "open door" it was here, and WL refused to go in. And he tried keeping us away, too.

Quote:

Advising and Teaching Others to Fear God and Take Refuge in Him

Psalm 34:7-22 show us David’s advising and teaching others to fear God and take refuge in Him. In verse 8 David said, ‘‘Blessed is the man who takes refuge in Him.’’ However, when David disguised himself in front of that king, he did not take refuge in Jehovah but in his ‘‘mask,’’ in his disguising himself. In verse 11 David said, ‘‘Come, children; hear me. / I will teach you the fear of Jehovah.’’ Do we want David to teach us to disguise ourselves, to put on a mask? This shows that on the one hand, we may trust in the Lord; on the other hand, we may put on a mask to deliver ourselves. Eventually, who saved us----the Lord or our mask?

1. The Goodness of Fearing God and Taking Refuge in Him In Psalm 34 David spoke of the goodness of fearing God and taking refuge in Him (vv. 7-10, 17-22). Verse 10 says, ‘‘The young lions hunger and starve, / But those who seek Jehovah will not lack any good thing.’’ People may quote these verses for their personal benefit but eventually end up lacking the material things they desire. Second Corinthians tells us that Paul passed through much suffering and deprivation, even to the extent that he was lacking food and clothing (11:27).

2. The Way to Fear God In Psalm 34 David spoke of the way to fear God (vv. 11-16; 1 Pet. 3:10-12). Verses 12-16 say, ‘‘Who is the man who desires life, / Who loves having days in order to see good? / Guard your tongue from evil, / And your lips from speaking deceit. / Turn away from evil and do good; / Seek peace and pursue it. / The eyes of Jehovah are set toward the righteous, / And His ears, toward their cry. / The face of Jehovah is against those who do evil, / To cut off the memory of them from the earth.’’ These verses were quoted by Peter in 1 Peter 3:10-12, but Paul did not quote such a word. Paul’s vision of the New Testament economy was clearer than that of all the other apostles.

When David asked, ‘‘Who is the man who desires life, / Who loves having days in order to see good?’’ he was not talking about the eternal life but about the physical life. David was a great saint in the Old Testament, and Peter was one of the great apostles in the New Testament, but I do not believe that what David said here is spiritual. Even among us, who dares ask the Lord to give him long days that he may enjoy many good things?

David said that if we love having days in order to see good, we should guard our tongue from evil and our lips from speaking deceit. But who has ever succeeded in guarding his tongue from evil? What David spoke here was according to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Verse 15 says, ‘‘The eyes of Jehovah are set toward the righteous, / And His ears, toward their cry.’’ But who is righteous on this earth? Paul said that not one is righteous (Rom. 3:10), and Isaiah said that our righteousnesses are like filthy rags (Isa. 64:6). If we depend upon our righteousness to enjoy God’s eyes and ears being set toward us, we will enjoy nothing, because we have no righteousness of our own.

Then, when Psalm 34:20 was quoted by John in the fourth Gospel, WL was compelled to acknowledge the "revelation of Christ".

Quote:

Concerning the righteous man, David said, ‘‘He keeps all his bones; / Not one of them is broken’’ (v. 20). This is a verse concerning Christ because David was a type of the suffering Christ. When Christ was on the cross, the soldiers did not break His legs when they saw that He had already died (John 19:33). John said, ‘‘These things happened that the Scripture might be fulfilled: ‘No bone of His shall be broken’ ’’ (v. 36).

Other than that, he basically had nothing good to say. To me this seems nothing short of schizophrenia ("failure to recognize what is real"). The eyes of Jehovah were arguably on His Son, Jesus, who was righteous (v 15). Everything in the NT that I can see, i.e. WL's vaunted "whole view of scripture" consistently points to this kind of interpretive theme. But he was incapable of even entertaining the idea. What drew him so far afield? What caused his eyes to venture so far away from Jesus Christ? And where was the "life" in this Life Study?

03-10-2015 04:18 PM

HERn

Re: The Psalms are the word of Christ

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

Did Paul ever indicate that his vision was high, while Peter's or James' was low? Did he suggest that Peter should "get in line" behind him or anyone else? Did Peter ever indicate that people should get in line behind Paul, and that Paul now had primacy? The case Paul recounted in Galatians 2, where "some came from James", indicates James' influence, not Paul's. Paul resisted James' influence, but didn't assert his own.

Did Paul ever indicate that only some of the OT scriptures were profitable to mine for revelation of Christ, while others were revealing only the fallen natures of the writers? Where, in all his recommendations of scripture, are his accompanying dis-recommendations? If not, why or how should we infer this? If we do so, then are our own judgments become superior to the scriptures, to Paul, and to Peter, and to the writer of Hebrews?

Why didn't John, in his Revelation, indicate the primacy of an apostle? Who was the apostle of the age, after Paul had gone? Was this office somehow irrelevant to John, who with his brother James had requested the right and left hands of Jesus in the kingdom? I would say, hardly. So where is the apostle of the age indicated, in John's apocalypse? No where, that is where. The apostle isn't even indicated; it is the prophet pointing to Christ. So what happened to the apostle of the age? The closest I can see in the apocalypse is the "two witnesses" account. But that is hardly "God's man of the hour". There are two of them.

WL would stress that "the whole view of scripture" indicates this narrative, or that. But I don't see his narrative emerging from the whole view of scripture at all. I think he's superimposing it upon scripture, and subsequently for his narrative to stand, and retain coherence, you have to ignore a lot of scripture.

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