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| Introductions and Testimonies Please tell everybody something about yourself. Tell us a little. Tell us a lot. Its up to you! |
Topic Review (Newest First)
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| 10-01-2008 10:35 AM | ||
| UntoHim |
Re: Handling Matters In House in the Local Churches Ok, In the case of Indiana I think it was a matter of things being moved to a different board/thread. There were a few out-of-bounds one-liners that were deleted. Sorry, I didn't have time to PM each individual to let them know. If something substantial disappears the poster needs to PM me asap so I can look into what's going on. I think it is a good idea to SAVE every post that you make. Another poster at one time said that he composes all his posts in MS Word, then cuts-and-paste's it into the reply box. In this way one can save any substantial/important posts to their computer. I have done this with most posts for many years. Oh, and this is just a regular tip: For most posts it it best to hit the "Post Reply" button at the top or bottom of the page INSTEAD of hitting the "Quote" button. Most of the time people are reacting/responding to the previous post and everybody will know this without having to re-quote the entire previous post. The exception to this is when you are reacting/responding to something that goes back quite a ways as far as number of posts or in number of days ago, or if you want to react/respond to some specific word or phrase within a large quote. This will save a lot of space and bandwidth. |
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| 10-01-2008 05:35 AM | ||
| YP0534 |
Re: Handling Matters In House in the Local Churches Quote:
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| 10-01-2008 05:12 AM | ||
| Ohio |
Re: Handling Matters In House in the Local Churches Quote:
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| 10-01-2008 04:55 AM | ||
| Suannehill |
Re: Handling Matters In House in the Local Churches Quote:
Sue |
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| 10-01-2008 04:54 AM | ||
| Ohio |
Re: My Paul Hon Attempt(s) at Handling Matters... Quote:
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| 10-01-2008 03:32 AM | ||
| Indiana |
Re: My Paul Hon Attempt(s) at Handling Matters... Please refer to www.twoturmoils.com/PaulHon.pdf |
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| 09-24-2008 07:08 AM | ||
| UntoHim |
Re: Handling Matters In House in the Local Churches Steve, I have no idea why either. I have not heard from anybody else who has had such problems. In regards to editing, when you say "limited" do you mean time wise? Everybody has 12 hours for unlimited editing of a post. If you post something at noon, you have till midnight to edit it. If you post at midnight you have till noon. |
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| 09-24-2008 03:37 AM | ||
| Indiana |
Re: Handling Matters In House in the Local Churches I have no idea why certain posts I make don't appear. It is quite frustrating. I want to ask you again, as I have before, why is our editing so limited. Things I have tried to share just don't appear. |
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| 09-24-2008 02:46 AM | ||
| Indiana |
Re: Handling Matters In House in the Local Churches I want to share my correspondence with Ransford, from 02 and my attempts at fellowship regarding him. From: Ransford Ackah (ransjohanna@yahoo.com) Sent: Thu 4/18/02 11:34 PM To: Steve Isitt (sisitt@msn.com) Dear Brother Steve, We are in a battle front, and precious lives are being destroyed here in Africa by the system and practices of LSM, so for our sake any material that will help us to stand for the truth against the evil practices of LSM is greatly needed. It is only the truth that will set people free. You have no idea what great impact your small booklet did among us here. Many more saints are making photocopies just to read. I will wait for the next one by the weekend thank you. Keep praying for us. Ransford. ----- Original Message ----- From: Steve Isitt To: Ransford Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 4:54 PM Subject: Re: another book is available, brother Ransford Dear Ransford, I am glad to receive this report from you. The booklet was written out of a deep regard for the oneness of the Body of Christ and with much feeling. There is another book available that is much stronger and more complete. I don't think any of us should be unaware of the real factors of division that occurred among us. I feel those factors should be defined. This second book does deal with the Philip Lee factor as well as brother Lee's forceful "push" in the new way, and failure to deal with Philip. It is a most serious book that I am before the Lord for how to use, or if to use it. I will probably send it to you by the end of the week. Praise the Lord, Ransford! His praise shall continually be in our mouth. Steve I. ----- Original Message ----- From: Ransford Ackah Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 12:50 AM To: Steve Isitt Subject: Thank You Dearest Brother Steve, The booklet you sent to me concerning the "Wake of the new way" was very helpful. Last month before the LSM people had their so called Blending Conference here in Accra-Ghana, all the leading ones from the various localities came together to pray. During that time we read through your booklet. It was a such an eyes opening for all of us. We made photocopies and distributed them among many of the elders. Many testified afterwards that, that small booklet has served as an eye opening to them all. Thank you for your obedience and faithfulness to the Lord in writing that small piece of information. It met the need at the right time, may the Lord bless you. You mentioned that you are writing one about Philip Lee, I hope you will send me a copy. Thank you. The unfortunate thing is that the LSM did not have the impact they were looking for. For all the money they spent their influence were not felt at all in Ghana. Many did not hear about their conference, the damage was limited. In Accra, there were only two brothers who went to their meetings because of the vain promises but apart from that the saints here are very clear about their deviation from the truth. We have been burdened to read the "Normal Christian Church Life" again to the saints. Many of the behaviour and practices of the LSM are complete deviation from what Watchman Nee wrote and what the scripture teaches. We are doing finer and may the Lord bless you. In Christ. Ransford It’s Not a Matter of Right and Wrong Brother Steve, After reading your emails and the attached documents, I just have the following points to fellowship with you: 1) Taken that you have the right intention to "straighten out" the problems in the Lord's recovery, I felt that the way you are taking is not the proper way, but instead will generate more problems. I say this because of two reasons: a. This is not the way shown to us in the scriptures. Just to get things "right" is never the way the Lord has led us. There were many things the Corinthians had wronged Paul, but Paul never took the attitude to "straighten them out" by helping them to get the facts straight and so on. In stead he preached the crucified Christ to them. There has to be the experience of the cross, the crucified Christ, in order to have the Body life. There are portions in the Word which show us that God does not care just to be "right" or "fair" or "just." Although He is a righteous God, He carries out His righteousness in the realm of life. Was Noah getting drunk and becoming naked right or wrong? Humanly speaking, we all agree that it was a mistake. However, God did not try to straighten out Noah; instead, God allowed and used Noah to curse his son Ham who saw his father's nakedness and told his brothers about it. It seems that Ham was doing the right thing to try to let his brothers know so that they can help their father out. But Ham violated the principle of life which God honors and desires so much. Noah did not get the curse, but Ham did. This is just one portion of the word which reveals this aspect of our touching God's matters. I hope that this may help to open up a new realm to you. b. This has never been the way practiced by us in the Lord's recovery as long as I have been here (for the last 36 years). There has been rebellion and turmoils in the recovery both in the east and the west in the past years, but there has never been one case where "getting things straight" resolved anything, but instead, if it ever took place, brought in more confusion and complications. Steve, I hope that you would realize that the problems that occurred in the recovery are not ordinary problems as in the world. Beside the factual side of things, that is, the mishandling and misrepresentation,etc., there are something called hidden ambition and pride involved which are extremely complicated and subjective. If there is one little bit of impurity in the motive, you are through, regardless of how righteous and correct you are in handling the matters. I really hope that you will not be misguided by your superficial view that things can be resolved by just getting the facts out and face up to them. I don't even know what you called it "the facts" are really the genuine facts. Only the Lord knows. I hope that you will not presume that you know the real facts. You should have a fear for that, especially knowing that human beings are so complicated from the fall which has involved them with ambition, pride, the flesh, and the self. These are ugly things and they are hidden and subtle. Only the cross of Christ can deal with them. 2) The second point is that since you mentioned that you are now under disciplined by the brothers in your area, I consider that as a very serious matter which you need to take to heart to be before the Lord to seek His mercy for repentance and restoration. I don't know who you are and I don't know anything about you, but the brothers in your area do. I just feel that you should take the Lord's soverignty in this arrangement to be reconciled to Him and to the brothers in your church life there. Otherwise, if your own standing is questionable, how can you try to help others to get out of their problems? This is all that I want to say. I hope that my frank words would not offend you. If you think that I am wrong, then just let it be that I am wrong. Even Paul said that he dared not judge anything, even himself, before the time comes. So in the mean time, let us be in fear and trembling before Him that we may not do or say anything that would hinder His building work on earth. This is my final email to you. I do not feel that I have the capacity and the time to address to those matters which you are concerned about. May the Lord be gracious to you. In Christ, James Lee Re: a request for the book From: jamesllee54@hotmail.com You may not know this sender.Mark as safe|Mark as unsafe Sent: Sun 4/28/02 4:53 PM To: Steve Isitt (sisitt@msn.com) Cc: Dick Taylor (dicktaylr@aol.com) Dear brother Steve, Sorry for the delayed reply to your numerous emails. Thank you for your concern over the Africa situation. It was altogether a surprise to get those emails by Ransford because there was not even one thought in us about dealing with him or his group when we planned the International blending conference. We just went on in spite of how he reacted to our blending conference. Thank the Lord that it was really a blessed time for the saints there in Africa to have this time of blending with so many from outside of the continent. They are part of the universal Body of Christ. Anyhow, regarding the books that you have written and being requested by others, I did have some fellowship with brother Dick Taylor, we feel that it would be good for you to hold off releasing that to the public. As you indicated in your email to seek fellowship, we would be open to receive a copy of your books for review and give you our comments. From our experience, we realize that many times presenting the "right facts" of the situation does not necessarily help the people, but instead may get them into the realm of right and wrong, and as you know, there is no real solution in that realm. The Lord is the One who knows the heart. Only when one's heart is right and pure can he see God in all the situations and be benefited by any environment. So, I hope that you would consider the fellowship here and wait on the Lord a little longer and allow time for more fellowship in the Body. If you would send the books to me, Grace be with you, Your brother in Christ, James ----- Original Message ----- From: Steve Isitt Sent: Friday, April 26, 2002 5:40 AM To: JamesLee; DickTaylor; dong Subject: Fw: a request for the book Dear brothers, Here, below, is a request for the book. Shall I send it to the brother, one who came into the recovery at the beginning? I feel there has been much unrighteousness wrought in the recovery, brothers, with many precious ones stumbled and brought into confusion. Brothers, we need a conscience concerning this, do we not. I ask again for your genuine fellowship over the contents of the book with me and a couple pertinent brothers who were once among us. I tentatively plan to come to Anaheim in early or mid-June. Shall we meet then, brothers? I honestly don't believe there is a reason not to share this book with others. For many, it will help clarify matters. If you don't feel I should send it out, what is your reason? My desire is to help the saints, and there are many who have questions and deserve answers, honest answers that tell the whole story. Brothers by Monday I will feel free to go ahead to answer the requests if I have not heard from you. Praise the Lord! for His economy. It surely begins by being open, honest, and real before Him and dealing with sin and all unrighteousness. That is my attitude in the book. ----- Original Message ----- From: Herman Massey Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 12:41 PM To: 'Steve Isitt' Subject: RE: another book is available, brother Ransford Steve, my name is Herman Massey. I have been receiving the emails from various brothers via Ron White. I do not know if you know me, I do not remember you. I was in the “recovery” in Texas since 1964 but because of conscience issues with how people and the Word of God was being handled I stopped assembling with the local church in Oklahoma City where I had served for 15 years. The book that you sent to Ransford and the one you mentioned in this email would be of special interest to me. I love those brothers so deeply. I worked with Benson since I was in college in the early 60s. There is so much ambiguity about so many issues that occurred in the late 80s that have never been made clear to me that I wish that I understood. However I would have no interest in anything that is based on hearsay. If you have documentation or were personally an observer of some of these matters I would like to know the truth for my own peace and assurance. Thank you Steve. Herman ----- Original Message ----- From: Steve Isitt Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 8:54 AM To: Ransford Subject: Re: another book is available, brother Ransford Dear Ransford, I am glad to receive this report from you. The booklet was written out of a deep regard and feeling for the oneness of the Body of Christ. There is another book available that is much stronger and more complete. I don't think any of us should be unaware of the real factors of division that occurred among us. I feel those factors should be defined. This second book does deal with the Philip Lee factor as well as brother Lee's forceful "push" in the new way, and failure to deal with Philip. It is a most serious book that I am before the Lord for how to use, or if to use it. I will probably send it to you by the end of the week. Praise the Lord, Ransford! His praise shall continually be in our mouth. Steve I. ----- Original Message ----- From: Ransford Ackah Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 12:50 AM To: Steve Isitt Subject: Thank You Dearest Brother Steve, The booklet you sent to me concerning the "In the Wake of the new way" was very helpful. Last month before the LSM people had their so called Blending Conference here in Accra-Ghana, all the leading ones from the various localities came together to pray. During that time we read through your booklet. It was a such an eyes opening for all of us. We made photocopies and distributed them among many of the elders. Many testified afterwards that, that small booklet has served as an eye opening to them all. Thank you for your obedience and faithfulness to the Lord in writing that small piece of information. It met the need at the right time, may the Lord bless you. You mentioned that you are writing one about Philip Lee, I hope you will send me a copy. Thank you. The unfortunate thing is that the LSM did not have the impact they were looking for. For all the money they spent their influence were not felt at all in Ghana. Many did not hear about their conference, the damage was limited. In Accra, there were only two brothers who went to their meetings because of the vain promises but apart from that the saints here are very clear about their deviation from the truth. We have been burdened to read the "Normal Christian Church Life" again to the saints. Many of the behaviour and practices of the LSM are complete deviation from what Watchman Nee wrote and what the scripture teaches. We are doing finer and may the Lord bless you. In Christ. Ransford |
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| 09-24-2008 01:29 AM | ||
| Indiana |
Re: Handling Matters In House in the Local Churches No, I was not concerned for either one of you sisters. I am actually favorably impressed with you both. I was referring to the other forum and trouble I ran into there, and frankly, have not recovered from. (I actually do not want to hurt anybody, yet, from a child truth and honesty have been very important to me, and I know it must be upheld. So, I speak accordingly. - No, it would not be accurate to think that I am an angel and altogether consistent in what I have just said - far from it - yet, a guiding principle is here, that I would adhere to....if I could; if I would...each time.) I just heard tonight from a brother who is a go-between for me with THE BROTHERS here in Bellevue that my email letter to the Billheimer brother was not received well. I don't know why. What a circus it becomes when our eyes are off of Christ and are on something besides. It was not like this in the beginning. Steve I. |
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| 09-23-2008 09:47 AM | ||
| Only by Grace |
Re: An Attempt to Attend a Meeting This Week Dear Steve, Please forgive me if you felt "drilled" by me, as my post was meant to do nothing of the sort, but rather was meant to encourage you. You post concerning being rejected by those at the church in Bellevue, and your standing at the gate longing for fellowship, literally broke my heart. My post was meant to lovingly say, there are Christian brothers and sisters "on the right and on the left" who would love you, accept you, receive you, and fellowship with you. Arms are open wide... Again, I am so sorry if I caused you hurt or offended you in any way. I was truly "weeping" with you and for you...I meant you no harm...and certainly my post was not meant to heap more hurt on you... Praying for you that the Lord will lift your countenance and that He will send brothers and sisters to you who will be used by Him to fill every void and to meet every need... In Him, OBG |
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| 09-23-2008 08:38 AM | ||
| finallyprettyokay |
Re: Handling Matters In House in the Local Churches Steve: Did I feel like a sister 'drilling you'? I hope not. I really do hope not. In short, what I meant was this --- life is short. If you feel like you really miss a lot about the LC, and can figure out a way to be there without too much compromise, then do that. Maybe. If you want. If you feel God wants. It's okay --- there are worse things  .Life really is short. One regret to NOT have is not meeting with the people who help with your walk with God. again, God be with you, bro. FPO |
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| 09-23-2008 01:14 AM | ||
| Indiana |
Re: An Attempt to Attend a Meeting This Week Well, I did pick up that Grace.... MIGHT NOT BE a brother. After reading your post, dear Aron, and having had some 10 minutes of weeping (why is there no better word than this word, weeping?), I want to share some things: (yes, now i have spent much more than ten minutes.) 1) there are sisters who have drilled me - but not CountMeWorthy and never Norma. I don't know if this amazing woman has come to this forum, but as radical and off the wall as she is (to my thinking), i just love the woman, the person. (She does not agree with me on all things - no, not at all - but she is quiet with me concerning these things. She is quiet. She will not speak.) (Yes, to others she will speak, and speak incredibly strongly, but not to me, and more importantly, not about me.) Although she can if she chooses, of course. 2) CountMeWorthy has spoken now - albeit, harmlessly, concerning me. And, I know she has much to say, as does Norma. They simply do not speak, although they disagree with me, and, I believe they disagree with me vehemently, on certain points. Of course this is due to my overall Statement concerning the Truth of our local church history, which I believe they appreciate, and not only from what comes from me.....but also from others.... but I do have a part. |
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| 09-22-2008 08:21 AM | ||
| aron |
Re: An Attempt to Attend a Meeting This Week Quote:
I always enjoy your testimonies. You are very earnest, determined, honest, and straightforward in my view. I always appreciate your thoroughness. You report what one of the 3 brothers said who escorted you out: "You know, Steve, you know". I would not have mentioned this telling detail, probably. To me it is revealing because that's all the brothers could say. They are terrified to say something not found in a footnote or outline written by Witness Lee, and there is nothing in Lee's ministry which addresses the notion of uncovering the truth as you've been doing. He gave it lip service at one point, and your weakness was that you took brother Lee at his word. Now look where it's gotten you. The brothers are terrified of you because you represent a bright light shining in the dark places. So they cannot even speak in your presence. Some day the earth will stand before her King. Some will be asked where is their wedding garment. They will be speechless before the bright glory of the Bridegroom, and this silence, along with their condition, disqualifies them. Let us all endeavor to not hide from the truth. The truth heals us, and sets us free. We can speak; it's okay. May we not hide, nor be dumb. OBG, I think Steve persists in attempting reconciliation with the group which has shunned him because the Lord said that if we have anything against another, first leave our gift at the altar, go and be reconciled, and then come and offer the gift. Some think it is okay to not be reconciled with another believer, and still offer the gift of praise and worship to God. I commend Steve on his persistence. He has a tough nut to crack however, because he wants both reconciliation and the truth, but hallelujah for his persistence! Steve, I had the same experience as you when I went "back into christianity". I went into the small group meetings and had a lot to say. One adult sunday school teacher, who taught before the big meeting, turned it over to me (with relief, I might add) because I had so much to say. I also spontaneously was in a "lead" role in many of the small-group christian gatherings as well. But I eventually realized something very important, which changed my christian walk forever. A lot of the people who had "nothing" in the way of teaching had walks with Jesus that made mine look pretty grim. I had teachings upon teachings; but some of these folks had reality upon reality; grace upon grace, and love and joy that went on and on, long after mine ran out. So I had to humble myself and admit that I wasn't "there" yet. I still have my teachings, but many of them had to get drastically recalibrated in order for me to continue my journey of faith. This is not in any way a judgment upon your testimony; it is merely mine, which is similar in that I also went to the "mainstream" groups and attempted to function there. I also struggled initially to get something of value there. Eventually I did. Today, I can speak of my time and adventures in the Local Churches, and also the amazing things God has shown me since. Peter Debelak's word in 1 Tim. 5 on "elders" and YPO's idea on /ekklesia/ being a verb not a noun, an experience and not an institution; these are examples of some of the light that may still be waiting to be poured out from God's Word on His blessed children. Peace to you. I always enjoy your sharing, and I believe Jesus loves your portion too. Grace always. aron |
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| 09-22-2008 06:13 AM | ||
| countmeworthy |
Re: An Attempt to Attend a Meeting This Week Quote:
Steve, Go back to the LC if that is where you feel you are being led...but here are my thoughts on what I see you are going through: You are very, very hungry for genuine fellowship with strong believers...for the building up & the edifying of the church, the body of Christ. Awesome! Now for the buts: The LC/LSM is NOT what it used to be. You remind me of people who try to remake movies that end up flopping or try to bring to the big screen TV shows that were hits but ultimately FLOP on the big screen. It can't be duplicated. As for the mega church experience..and otherwise, Apostosy is running rampant in the church. The falling away is at hand. Believe it or not believe it, we are living in the last seconds of the last days. We are experiencing birth pangs and the pangs are getting stronger because the return of our LORD as our Bridegroom and KING is soon approaching. You don't have to believe me...but it doesn't change the facts. Life on this earth be it the LC/LSM or anywhere on earth is just not getting better nor is it going to..until Christ the KING returns. This should lift up your HOPE, Your FAITH, & give you a level of excitement. For me, the Lord gave me a gift through the LC...that is to uplift & encourage the saints. Continue to draw near and dear to the LORD. Delight in HIM and He'll grant you the desires of your heart. (Psalm 37:4) So whatever you choose to do, be of good cheer. Lift up and encourage the saints. Don't expect much from people. Do expect the LORD to bless YOU as you follow His Leading through the Holy Spirit. GOD-SPEED Steve !  See ya in the Holy City New Jerusalem one of these days! 
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| 09-21-2008 08:41 AM | ||
| finallyprettyokay |
Re: Handling Matters In House in the Local Churches I have WiFi today and tomorrow, so I am checking in. Steve: I wonder --- do you really want to start attending LC meetings again? Ask yourself if you do, do your best to be honest with yourself in God's light. And then figure out if you did do that, to what extent would you want to be involved? Sunday morning only? A couple of meetings a week? Everything? Extra-curricular activities? (Are they still called service groups?) And if you really do want to go there, be part of that group --- figure out what it is you would need to do to be accepted there. My guess is that would be going to the 'elders' to talk about it, find out what they want and need from you to feel that you are not 'an opposer' --- and, if you can, do that. And it would probably entail not speaking of other ministries and teachings that have helped you along the way. But it sounds like you really like and benefit from LC teachings --- WL and WN ---- so maybe just sticking with them would work for you. I came to the LC in 1970, left in 1978. I guess there were high times, good teachings. I don't know. For me, the pain and abuse I eventually realized was being heaped on good people overrode anything else. Quote:
Maybe the LC is the place for you now. I feel pretty sure I wouldn't want to do that, but Steve --- there are worse things you could do . If that is what calls to you, figure it out and go for it. And let us know how it goes. I doubt there will be any sort of mass exodus on this one, people following. Not me, for sure. Just know that if you do decide to go there, you may have to bite your tongue --- maybe a LOT. God be with you, bro. fpo |
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| 09-21-2008 05:40 AM | ||
| Indiana |
Re: An Attempt to Attend a Meeting This Week Quote:
Dear brother, My guess is that you came into the church life after 1974. After 1974 things changed. From 1971 to 1973, I had not only risen up but had catapulted into an amazing sphere. What I received then, propels me today. I, by the way, am not a notable person, outwardly. I have NO distinction academically or professionally. But, I know what I have seen. And, seeing is everything. What I see is what I live by. Prior to going into the local church meeting last week, I went into the Pres meeting next door where they have 4000 members (on paper) and I worked there as a “lowly” custodian for 10 months and met many people, including the six pastors, 3 men and 3 women. There were 250! activities taking place in classrooms throughout the week that I helped take care of setting up. I met many dear believers there and enjoyed them (somewhat, honestly speaking). I also went to another popular meeting place called Washington Cathedral, and another called Westminster Chapel. These places are filled with hundreds and into the thousands of believers. Overlake Christian is another place, 5000 at least. North Baptist is another. I joined home meetings in the first 3 places I mentioned. (You know, the home group meetings have really taken hold in mainstream Christian circles, as it has also in the so-called local churches (sorry to you who do not like me to use the term, so-called). Brother, I already told you I am not a person of distinction, and along with that I don’t have a natural ability to really be a teacher. My older brother is a professor at a Christian college and another Christian brother in my family is a teacher in a high school. Yet, my brothers recognize that my speaking is not only higher than theirs, it is much higher! This is not because of me, but because of the ministry I have been under for 37 years. Don’t worry, be assured I do know the story on the negative side concerning the local churches. But my spirit also bears witness with what has been produced on the positive side, and I will not cast it aside. In other words, I HAVE “turned to the right and turned to the left” – and virtually, there is nothing there, at least not by comparison. Dear brother, there is “nothing there!” in the “best places”. This is not only my experience, it is the experience of many others looking for an alternative around the country. I know that some will say they have found an alternative, but deep down what have they actually found? Of course, the debate would begin, but I am riveted to and compelled by a vision that I saw very early on, 1971-73 (and, much more revelation came forth in subsequent years in this controversial, yet incredible ministry of brother Witness Lee.) Brother, be advised, I am certainly not happy with my treatment by elders over the years… But just as in tonight’s “outside the local church” home meeting that I am in on Saturday nights, I have the most to say of spiritual value. That is simply the truth, although a new Christian college professor sister was in attendance tonight for the first time. It doesn’t matter what home meeting I attend, anywhere, I will “dominate” and lead, spontaneously, in my way, though no one could point to me, necessarily, as a leader that night. To lead is not even in my thinking; but to minister Christ is. And, it all comes from the ministry of…….….and the grace, the love, and the fellowship according to 2 Cor. 12:13. The problem in the local churches is that our brothers and sisters have become very small, receiving only those who receive “the ministry”, which is said to be “indispensable to our oneness.” Rhetorically speaking, others are received. And, I do mean, rhetorically. This is a PROBLEM and has led to a lack of blessing, to put it quite mildly. But my eyes are on what we had in the beginning… This is what I see, and this is what motivates me. Thank you, brother, for your show of concern to me. I want to be open for correction, if it is indeed needed. Thank you again, Steve I. |
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| 09-20-2008 08:33 AM | ||
| Only by Grace |
Re: An Attempt to Attend a Meeting This Week Dear Steve, Coming from one who feels no constriction from the Lord other than to meet with followers of Jesus who don't teach heresey, I can't help but be perplexed as to why don't you join ANY of the other of 1000's of Christians who must be meeting in the Bellevue area the same time as the church in Bellevue? Is it "the name"? If so, surely the Bellevue Church of Christ, or Bellevue Community Church, or Bellevue Christian Church, Bellevue Assembly, Bellevue City Church (if there is such a thing) can't be offensive? My guess is that there are others who would welcome you in, minister to your hurts, worship with you, and be genuinely glad that you have joined them. Why continue to punish yourself with repeated rejections? If you believe as LSM recently emphasised in the HH broadcast: We are not the only church, just part of the church...and, we're not the perfect church, but just striving to be, you'll find MANY, MANY other Christians in your area who feel exactly the same way! I think Kisstheson's words from another thread could be encouragement to you... Quote:
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| 09-19-2008 01:14 AM | ||
| Indiana |
An Attempt to Attend a Meeting This Week On Sunday this week, I tried to attend a meeting in the church in Bellevue. Of course they told me in Feb of 2000 that I am not welcome there. Nevertheless, my desire was to attend and enjoy fellowship with the brothers and sisters. I went in on a break, and people were milling around talking. I sat in an empty back row, intent on making myself at home. A brother walked by and I invited him to sit with me. Ten minutes later, they arrived, asking me softly to come with them. On the way out I greeted a brother and waved and then greeted a sister surprised to see me. Both were warm toward me. And I went outside with the two elders and another brother, and we had a talk. See link below. Before coming in, I was standing outside the fence watching the saints. Once in a while I do that. It tends to stir my spirit, one way or the other. To my surprise, a sister (who I didn’t know) called out to me and asked if she could help me. What am I supposed to say? She later asked why I didn’t come in when it became obvious to her that I had local church life experience. What little I said in answer to her presented a negative picture, and she passed it on to the elders. The elders later approached the brother who they know has stood by my side from the beginning and told him that a pattern seems to be forming of Steve speaking negatively to sisters, which will be explained. Here is an email I wrote subsequently to a seeking responsible brother on the East Coast, who contacted me initially in 2005 in great conflict of heart over development in the churches over the years. He has been a reader on the forum(s) for longer than I have, and remains quiet and torn. A link to a letter I wrote to the elders this week follows my email to this brother. Hello _____, I think it may be of the Lord that you have contacted me this week. I had an experience Sunday that I want to relate to you. I tried to attend a meeting in the church in Bellevue. I went in between meetings during their break time and was sitting having good fellowship with a brother for about 10-15 minutes, when brothers asked me to come with them. They escorted me out and one of the three said, "you know, Steve, you know". I said, "I know that you brothers don't know my situation and haven't responded to my requests for fellowship. I asked you, Jim, to meet with me ongoing for prayer and fellowship and you would not; I sent a letter to you, Mark, but you did not respond. None of you three brothers have shown a bit of concern for me over the last seven years and do not know my situation. I am open to you and receive you. But you will not receive me. Can you tell me, Jim, why you are removing me from a church meeting? Can you tell me the reason I cannot be in the church life? Jim replied, "no and we don't have to know". The main elder wasn't there, Sherman Robertson, the one responsible for my being cut off from the church life. Brother ____, it bothers me greatly that these brothers remain with concepts formed by their one-sided information source, brother Sherman, whose own understanding is limited and skewed. Brothers pick up the negative information they learned from Sherman and report that much to others when occasions arise to speak about me. The whole story concerning me is not told and I am looking like the person described to you by Dexter Smith. Not the person that I actually am in the Lord and in the Body. I have felt that seven years is long enough. The only person in the church in Bellevue who has stood with me during this time has been quite reluctant to speak on my behalf. But once when he did, he gave one elder Bill Mallon's letter and JIngalls' book, and the elder became subdued, saying I know longer have a problem with Steve. But that elder remains quiet with the other elders. And, the progress basically stopped. I have asked _____ to help me, and help these brothers improve their understanding that I am not an opposer; rather I am a proposer, proposing that we examine ourselves and our honest history of division. Dexter is a brother that I sent a letter to hoping he could learn more about me, but the letter was returned to me, marked "return to sender". Later, while staying with you on business on the East Coast, he remarked to the Iranian couple in your home that I am an opposer. I haven't heard from Iranian sister since, for almost two years, and the Farsi translation work we were doing stopped. For many years the brothers have gotten away with taking the liberty to speak as they do. Of course, those who could speak on my behalf do not do so out of fear of being cut off. I told a brother last night that I wanted to contact you and now you have written to me. Would you want to speak a word to Dexter, ______, if you have not already? Of course, it is not just me that I'm caring about, but also that brothers could gain the knowledge of our actual history. There is a time to be frank and real and care for the truth, not a make-believe history that results in perpetual bearing of false witness from the mouths of many a dear uninformed brother. Yours in the Beloved One, Steve I. Read my letter to the elders written this week. www.twoturmoils.com/Jim.pdf I speak again from an appreciative perspective and will do so as long as that sense is still within me. But that experience on Sunday also awakened me a little more to the value of the most extreme voices on the forum, who though show little or no appreciation for local church members, they do SPEAK THE TRUTH!!!! |
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| 09-18-2008 05:22 AM | ||
| Ohio |
Quote:
"They did not take sides, they did not protest, they did not make themselves into a party, they did not start something else, they just stood and prayed for the Lord to build His church, and shepherded the saints without controversy ... Ask yourself this dear brother, If you are accused wrongly, what should our reaction be. Haven't we been helped to realize that we must take it from the Lord Himself, to let the Lord vindicate His truth, or to adjust us as needed, and to be open to the Lords shining on our being in the situation, and to not become part of a faction or party?. If we have not learned this over the years then we have learned nothing. And when brothers feel they need to defend themselves, I feel that very act is against the nature of God's life in us. But when I see a brother take all things as from the Lord and yet not allow division, that brother will be the one I wish to emulate." How easy it is to manipulate spiritual principles for convenience. Lord, have mercy on us. |
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| 09-18-2008 04:49 AM | ||
| Toledo | interesting... I have known and loved Dave for many years. | |
| 09-17-2008 11:10 PM | ||
| Indiana |
Handling Matters In-House Again 2003 I shared at the beginning that an elder stated that Steve Isitt should have handled matters in-house - implying that I did not. For truth's sake, more than for the sake of defending myself, I simply counter with the truth of the matter in this fellowship that I have been presenting. Many attempts were made for fellowship with leaders, such as in the following communication in the link below, which I consider a "classic" interchange of heartfelt principles. The venerable Friedel Hanson stated a few years ago when he read this correspondence: "I like what the [elder] said; but, I like what you said even better." I too like what the elder said, who was such an elder who could respond in love with thoughtfulness, a rarity among local church elders. But he speaks to one side of the coin - and I speak to the other. Dave Hoff is from the Chicago area and knew me in the seventies in the church in Chicago and in our fellowship later, after a few saints began to spread to the surrounding suburbs for the church life. Please refer to www.twoturmoils.com/DaveHoffandSteve.pdf |
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| 09-16-2008 12:01 AM | ||
| Indiana |
Handling Matters In-House -Apology letter to elders 2001 After I had approached Dan Towle via email and regular mail for fellowship, and after the backlash from elders in my area, I wrote a letter of apology to several elders, realizing that there was surely no climate for discussion - I expected fully to just be able to go on in the church, but that was not to be. The behavior of the elders toward me then and ever since only proved the points in my little book, In the Wake of the New Way. www.twoturmoils.com/Letterofapology.pdf I was apologizing - not for writing the little book or for the burden I had; I was apologizing for upsetting them, since they were no where near wanting to engage in discussion over the points I presented. |
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| 09-13-2008 01:29 AM | ||
| Indiana |
A Letter to Atsuo I addressed in a letter to a Bellevue elder, Atsuo Miyuke, each "concern" the elders had for me. www.twoturmoils.com/AtsuoOnMyHistory.pdf |
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| 09-09-2008 11:40 PM | ||
| Indiana |
Handling Matters In House (3) [B]This is the 3rd post to address the misconception that I, a brother in the local church, did not attempt to handle matters of my concern "in house", in a spirt of love and genuine fellowship/B] The following 4 paragraphs are an excerpt, followed by a link, of my letter to one of the blending brothers. Those who will be bothered by my positive approach to him (I know the arguments agains my words), please pay attention to the main line of communication that was open to him. In this current atmosphere of litigation and the tenacious holding to the fire a publishing house and two authors for their roles of defamation against us, I am moved by the Lord to submit to you a far more serious case of defamation that far exceeds the other in libelous content, injury, and need to address. Kerry, can you open with me to the Lord and consider the facts of our history, even that which has been “conveniently ignored” by our leadership for many years? Although you are intent upon the one publication matter, I am looking at this atmosphere of litigation as the opportune time for our leadership to objectively view themselves in the light of facts concerning our own case of defamatory injustice in the local churches. I have two books to present that I hope will be used as a means for elders and co-workers to become apprised of the “whole truth” of our history, since our official writings in the local churches not only ignore “important parts of the story”, but also hide from the saints the facts that would do justice to accurate historical recording among us. The following are a few pages from Hiding History in the Lord’s Recovery (280 pages), and a few pages from An Evaluation of “A Response to Recent Accusations” (225 pages), which addresses a book authored by Ron Kangas and Kerry Robichaux. For five years I have encouraged fellowship among the leaders with me on the subject of our actual history, but to no avail. I am still seeking fellowship at this point. I received a report from an elder here that the blending brothers made a joke, saying, “when we receive an email from this brother, we just hit the delete button”. I hope that attitude will change and that what I have to present will be taken seriously and respectfully before the Lord, with Whom we all have to do." Letter to Kerry www.twoturmoils.com/Kerryletter.pdf |
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| 09-07-2008 06:12 PM | ||
| Indiana |
Handling Matters In House in the Local Churches (2) After writing to Dan Towle in 2001 to initiate fellowship "in house" about concerns of the late eighties turmoil, I sent him a letter in 2003 when the subject of dafamation came up in a lawsuit against Harvest House Publishers. Dan reported that he had tried to get the attention of the HH president, which was during the same period of time I was trying to get Dan's attention. He was ignored by HH, and I was ignored by Dan, which I let him know in the letter. My letter to Dan: (copies also were sent to Chris Wilde and Francis Ball.) http://www.twoturmoils.com/DanTowleD...ionLawsuit.pdf |
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| 09-07-2008 01:03 PM | ||
| blessD | Amen!!!! Spoken well. | |
| 09-06-2008 05:48 PM | ||
| Bill W |
Fellowshipping In His Light Indiana,if you read the four gospels many times the disciples approached Jesus with many questions.Christ was approachable!For example ,He would explain about the last days to them when they asked and broke down parables to them when they didn't understand them.He never grew weary of them or was afraid they might ask something that would hinder His purpose. Every situation,problem,or unanswered question He was open 24/7. I read a book about the Brethren Movement that the local church tried to uphold as an example.In their meetings,any saint could openly and freely share anything related to the bible.There initially was absolutely no fear in their meetings and the love of God and for one another abounded.Even if a saint through ignorance or lack of understanding shared a false doctrine,then an older saint would simply stand up and teach,instruct,reprove,and correct the saint in love by His Word.All the saints would get the benefit,and no one felt evil for sharing something off since many saints were still in the learning mode. I find it a dark thing when you aren't allowed to question anything off among christians.It isn't only evil when your conscience is silenced by fear tactics to express your biblical convictions,but it is unscriptural!Jesus had no problems being challenged,then why should His followers?The Bereans even examined the apostle Paul's teachings under the microscope of the Holy scriptures,and he honored them!Like our Lord,the apostle Paul wasn't afraid to be examined under the Light of His Word.If the LC leadership and all the saints in the LC claim to follow the apostle Paul's teachings,then why don't they follow his practices also? Finally,it still amazes me that those in the leadership of the local churches want to keep their past "in house".What are they afraid of the truth and Light being shed on their unbiblical practices?God is Light and in Him there is no darkness at all!If we are children of the Light and are walking in the Light as He is in the Light,then what do we have to be afraid of?Adam when he sinned hid himself from God.It was sin that causes saints to want to hide from the piercing glare of the truth.This is why I am not surprised that you received no response for your endeavors.I just wonder why you stay and take the abuse when it is clear that they have another agenda other than the seeking of the truth as found only in Christ Jesus and His Word.I personally would flee such a dark situation that quenches life and hinders His love from flowing freely among His saints. |
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| 08-30-2008 10:26 PM | ||
| Indiana |
Handling Matters In House in the Local Churches Hello everyone, I had to “laugh” when an elder told a brother recently that I should have handled matters of our past “in house” and not publicly on the internet. This brother evidently doesn’t understand that there is no such thing as handling matters “in house”. It has been over seven years since I initially presented my burden “in house” about matters of our past and was placed in shackles as a result. The shackles remain to this day. There was no fellowship then, and there is none now. The brothers were afraid because I put the matters of my concern in print; albeit, I did so seeking first their fellowship over the points made in the book. I provided six hard copies to elders for their serious contemplation and did the same with six other saints – all for sake of having fellowship “in house”. My thought was to build a bridge of communication to the many that left the churches. When I found that I was on my own with this idea and the brothers were not going to be supportive, (“jailing” me instead), I sent out copies to others by email. Later, after acquiring much more understanding of the facts of local church history, and asking the brothers for fellowship along the way and being ignored, I placed pertinent information in abundance on the internet that would help leaders and other saints, past and present, understand local church history according to facts, not the myths and fabrications of LSM lore. (I said earlier I had to “laugh”; more accurately I was mainly incensed about the elder's statement about keeping matters "in house". Leading brothers in the churches don’t get facts straight and never will as long as they remain closed to them and regard their "one accord" even above truth. The lies and misrepresentations continue in the recovery as blind brothers follow the lead of other blind brothers in avoiding forthright dealings with serious unrighteous matters of our local church history.) Here is my initial letter to Dan Towle. (I could not have been more naïve, even after being warned about the impenetrable wall I would encounter addressing such brothers. I genuinely thought I could find men with a conscience in the leadership. With regard to my motive, intention, and purity in this cause, I was like a lamb. A very dumb lamb, on his way to the slaughter.) January 28, 2001 "Dear Dan, I have written a little book for the sake of fellowship, mainly with leading ones, concerning our past sixteen-year history of the new way. I think this period of time in the Lord’s recovery warrants our careful study of both the benefits and the costs to the church in what was such a highly controversial move among us in those beginning years. I wanted to come to you because I feel it is safe to do so. If I am inaccurate or unfair in some way, perhaps you are the most qualified one to catch me that I could either make an adjustment or terminate the proposed fellowship. I hope we can have a good, thorough, and upright fellowship over this booklet called In the Wake of the New Way, while remembering the Lord’s prayer ‘that they all may be one’ and the repeated petitions from our brother Lee, not only to heed the trumpet call for the Lord’s new move, but also to respond to the call for the rendering of care to every member for the building up of the Body in love…. I would welcome your phone call or e-mail message at …………] and sisitt@msn.com. I don’t intend for this booklet to be widespread; rather, I hope that ones who do receive it could do so in the Lord, with a holy regard and respect given to those who left the recovery, and a godly consideration rendered to those who remain, but who are in need of more significant care...." This was only the first of many attempts to handle matters “in house” with several brothers over a seven-year period. At my three-year point, the hidden matters of our history spilled over to the internet, only after the brothers took issue with Harvest House about a book they felt was defamatory. I then presented our history on the internet as a parallel story and as our own far more serious case of defamation. Since there was NO FELLOWSHIP “in house” and since I was continuing to be held in a disciplinary mode, (in shackles provided by leaders in Bellevue and Seattle), I changed my approach. I have several documents showing these attempts at fellowship. What a misrepresentation for an elder to say that I should have handled things “in house”. It could not be done! Others have also experienced the impossibility of having genuine fellowship with most leaders in the local churches. Eventually, you must just proclaim. And, this is what I have done. And, all the time with the hope for the cooperation, meaningful dialogue, and genuine mutual fellowship of local church leaders. |
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