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| The Local Church in the 21st Century Observations and Discussions regarding the Local Church Movement in the Here and Now |
Topic Review (Newest First)
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| 12-20-2023 10:22 AM | ||||||
| PriestlyScribe |
Re: The Lost and Found of the Local Church Kids Quote:
 Having solidly received the Lord external to the so-called Recovery helped me to not buy into the boastful hype which was in the LR water supply. So thankful to report that my whole family made it out of that mess with their brains intact. Merry Christmas to all! P.S. |
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| 12-19-2023 12:04 PM | ||||||
| Recovering |
Re: The Lost and Found of the Local Church Kids Quote:
With Christmas around the corner and some family members still steeped in LC culture, my wife and I have been discussing this a lot lately. I attended a Christian school during elementary school, which I enjoyed overall except for the weird need to be excused from Christmas and Easter parties. Later on, it gave me an unexpected sense of empathy with JWs. We've been trying to have some conversations with some of the "still-in" family members to gently probe the opposition to Christmas. We've found that even if you show them that Hislop was off in his assessment in "The Two Babylons" and that the book has more-or-less been discredited now, even if you point out that "celebrating the incarnation every day" really means that it's never special, the resistance often boils down to something along the lines of "well, I just don't feel the need for Christmas." In my mind that's basically an argument of cultural preference, and it ignores the impact on kids who tend to see in black-and-white and have to offer weird explanations to the their Christian classmates. Of course we don't want to make Christmas an issue for division, but for the sake of the kids, I wish it were a little less fraught to talk about. |
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| 12-17-2023 10:18 AM | ||||||
| Unregistered |
Re: The Lost and Found of the Local Church Kids Quote:
The biggest discrepancy though i find also in my own experience is for kids who are sent to so called “Christian” school as some parents find it a better alternative to public school. It was even more difficult to explain to classmates, teachers, principals, counselors, *and visiting pastors to the school why not allowed to do this and that including school class birthday parties, being excluded from the schools holiday choir(which the school practices everyday for months), not able to allowed to the “fall festival,” etc. Since supposingly we share the same belief yet I totally feel like an alien. I thought Christians were all like what the LCs taught me over the years. At first though I actually questioned the contemporary music sang at chapel sounding like rock band music with drums. And others of their practices, as being worldly ie having sports parties. I remember being got picked on even more in a so called Christian school than I was in public school. Like if I was an outer space alien who landed and enrolled in earthly school. And other kids and teachers were shocked when I mentioned I wasn't supposed to do practices they feel is normal and by no means ungodly. * I always feel for kids who grow up in LR and I always curious how their parents answer why they have to be different than other Christian kids and adults especially if they go to a Christian school. It’s interesting as the LR seem to forbid contact with other Christian groups but find Christian schools acceptable despite how Christian school would inevitably cause kids to doubt the teachings and practices of the LR. I found it very difficult when I had to go to LC at the same time. Its almost like being in a different religion. One would think LR families would homeschool or start their own schools ie Acaciawood in more places but thats for some unknown reason thats not the case. Ironically Lords recovery folks don’t seem to push homeschooling as much if at al as some other church’s pastors do especially in recent years. Apparently I believe the pressure to compete with others academically is so ingrained into Chinese culture which LC is centered upon is so great that this is one of the few things they are allowed to be like the world in. Especially the Asian world. |
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| 12-06-2023 11:13 PM | ||||||
| PriestlyScribe |
Re: The Lost and Found of the Local Church Kids Quote:
Around the same time-frame (2006-2007) I also discovered some huge black 3-ring binders in a meeting hall storage room which contained what seemed to be a really solidly laid out curriculum for children's work from the 1980s. Link to some of it here. And a great deal of the material was directed toward the parents and how they should handle their children at home - link here. When I tried to bring both of these promising looking resources to the attention of the leading brothers they were un-interested, and simply wanted us to keep doing what we had been doing (maintain the status quo). This was just one more reason that I chose to walk away from the LC after giving it 35 years of my life. There was no meaningful training for married couples and parenting - and what was being done to care for the children during meetings was grossly inadequate in my mind. P.S. |
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| 11-01-2023 05:08 PM | ||||||
| Ohio |
Re: The Lost and Found of the Local Church Kids Quote:
I have known many churches who provided wholesome alternatives to "trick-or-treating" with lots of candy, games, prizes, and fun with none of the horror. Kids loved it and came home healthy with lots of goodies. They had more fun than their friends who were costumed up. Let's get past the ruse of children's "entertainment." What propels Halloween are stupid adults, void of common sense truth. Just yesterday afternoon while walking my dog, I saw my neighbor in freaky costume with a machete in hand, waiting to scare all the little kids getting off their school bus. Unbelievable. |
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| 10-31-2023 09:23 AM | ||||||
| Unregistered |
Re: The Lost and Found of the Local Church Kids Quote:
https://youtu.be/PFAxuDApKD0?si=i1o3ROUdDccHhJax |
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| 10-28-2023 01:39 PM | ||||||
| TLFisher |
Re: The Lost and Found of the Local Church Kids [QUOTE=Anon-San;112276] James 2:1-4 My brothers and sisters, believers in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ must not show favoritism. Suppose a man comes into your meeting wearing a gold ring and fine clothes, and a poor man in filthy old clothes also comes in. If you show special attention to the man wearing fine clothes and say, “Here’s a good seat for you,” but say to the poor man, “You stand there” or “Sit on the floor by my feet,” have you not discriminated among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts? Quote:
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| 10-26-2023 10:31 AM | ||||||
| Anon-San |
Re: The Lost and Found of the Local Church Kids Quote:
Quote:
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| 10-25-2023 05:15 PM | ||||||
| TLFisher |
Re: The Lost and Found of the Local Church Kids Quote:
I also feel churchkids experience a lack of boundaries. No empowerment to say no. Because to say no may very well be received as being in rebellion. I admit I had a lack of boundaries. It was easy for the older saints to get me to comply when I really wanted to say no. Quote:
The Recovery discourages asking questions. Leading brothers being asked questions will receive it as "questionings". It's because of the lack of transparency are brothers motives and their integrity fall under scrutiny. A common phrase is to "get out of your mind". The Recovery does not want brothers and sisters to be analytical. Rather the Recovery wants brothers and sisters to comply and conform. Quote:
I think the churches associated with LSM are nothing more than ministry churches, but if it wasn't for LSM these churches have the capacity to be so much more. Just drop the ministry and come back to the pure Word of God. Quote:
Quote:
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| 10-23-2023 03:46 PM | ||||||
| Anon-San |
Re: The Lost and Found of the Local Church Kids This took a while to answer all the questions in detail as I had to reflect closely with my experience growing up in the Local Churches. Here it goes (it's a long read): (1) I felt out of place growing up. I initially thought it may have to do with my language delay; but as examined my family’s social circle, I realized how different and off they were compared with my secular peers. My family abruptly canceled Halloween when I was around 3rd grade and that was when I had to explain why I was not allowed to celebrate it. After that, my social interaction, self-esteem, and confidence went downhill because I could not keep up with their social trends and activities. I did have outside friends, but my family started to gatekeep who I could be friends with when I reached middle school. I turned down a playdate/sleepover with a former close friend in elementary school because it conflicted with my parents hosting their Friday night meeting at their house and my parents did not allow sleepovers. High school was rough because my schedule to hang out with potential friends outside of the classroom was consistently blocked by Friday/Saturday evening meetings and Sundays. My older brother, however, had greater flexibility in developing his secular social crowd. Whereas my parents infantilized me and brainwashed me in committing myself to follow dogma and expectations of the LC. From my brainwash, I had rejected 2 people who were interested in me even though I was socially behind and not up to date with pop culture. My mom did not like any of my peers in high school because they were not modest and pure enough for their daughter (me). When I was brainwashed in the LC, I saw the secular world as inferior with dangerous place filled with temptations. Now when I think about it, I had those views because I yearned for my parents’ approval as I felt my developmental delay caused much stress and burden to my family. Sadly, my brainwashed self was the time I felt my mom was truly proud of me. Other than drawing, watching nature/history documentaries, and Runescape (played in secret), I became a shell of my personality in the secular world. It didn’t help that my family enabled bullying behavior/emotional & spiritual abuse from my mom and older brother (my dad was either at work or doing leading brother duties at the local church, so he was emotionally absent). Even though I always attended the LC meetings, I really hated prophesizing every week because I found the lessons obscure, indifferent, or simply parroting my peer’s enjoyment not wanting to look like a simpleton. I just didn’t really have much to comment on in some lessons. I also felt that if what Witness Lee said was the “highest truth” why do I need to add more emphasis to prevent distorting his interpretation; it was a waste of time to me having one small enjoyable point being dragged on for another 5 minutes minimum from each member. I was really bored and tired studying the morning revivals, young people’s (SST) reading materials, and outlines from the conferences. I only endured and tolerated them because I thought I had to remain faithful to the LCs. Aside from the redundancies in the meetings, the shepherding saints for the young people and adults were kind and happy to see me (except one- he bullied me and tattled on my parents to comply with the LCs teachings in establishing my character… he was not popular with the young brothers to say the least). They really cared how the young people were doing and understood that most of us lacked the full attention span to sit 2 hours straight per message. The sisters and I helped prepare food in the kitchen and other activities involving us to support our group meetings and the younger ones. For the most part, being part of my young people’s group was enjoyable though some saints have complained my non-compliance in “getting into Word enough.” (2) I went to a local state college in a city 40 miles away from my hometown. As LC connection fashion goes, of course I was dragged by my family to the locality there to be introduced before the fall semester even started. Because I was socially sheltered, the fall semester was almost a disaster in trying to integrate into mainstream secular society. For the first 2 years in college my main social group were the members of the local church and Christians on Campus. I do admit the outings were fun, but as time went by, I was seeing more activities and attitudes become increasingly suspect. Although they have the same familiarity with the saints in my hometown, they more often attracted more radicalized new members (especially the brothers) and went above and beyond to love bomb everyone attending our meetings and only procure lessons that talked positively about the LC teachings. The heavier lessons (the more controversial writings published by Witness Lee) were only reserved for members already raised in the LC for the Friday night meetings (the CoC meetings were made separate from the traditional LC meeting schedule and structure). In other words, those who just solely attended the CoC were censored from the full picture of the LC legalism I grew up in. There were many factors that made me put my foot down to leave the LC and Christianity in general. When I was brainwashed, I thought I would be going to the FTTA after college because, again, I thought it was necessary for me to be in the LC properly so that I can “gain the riches and achieve God’s reward to enter into His Kingdom.” Entering my 4th year in college, however, everything changed. I attended the College Training in Champaign, IL. The messages that concurred there have become more antagonistic towards other church denominations, social minorities, scientific academia, and secular pleasures in general. Messages that were once wholesome have become endless militaristic propaganda to “become overcomers” and “rejecting those who opposed Witness Lee’s teachings and the Word of God.” The last straw was when the video playing one of Witness Lee’s messages. It stopped working in the middle due to technical issues and were told to pray because “the work of Satan is here to prevent us enjoying His Word!” I woke up and instead saw intellectual suicide. I got up and retreated to my dorm for the night. After summer break, I met my then-boyfriend, now husband. From the beginning of our relationship, he was clear that he has his own beliefs and will not convert otherwise. I accepted him and found my way to get out the LC system. My parents did not like him at first but eventually got over it for the most part. Post college events solidified my decision to leave the LC for good. I had to live with my parents as I could not live by myself and did not have enough money to afford rent. My mom did not like my close friend because he played for the other team and tried to lecture me on how it is wrong to be associated with him. Despite this, my friend and I have been best friends for 10 years strong. My dates with my then-boyfriend were restricted and could never stay over at his and his parents’ place with supervision overnight. However, such restrictions did not apply to my older brother as he traveled the states and overseas with his ex and current fiancé. My parents were adamantly against the idea of living in sin and berated this heavily to me when I was dating, but yet allowed my older brother and his fiancé moved in together at his newly built house. All their reasonings to restrict my autonomy were dictated by Witness Lee’s teachings and the social (sexist) expectations of the LC. They cared more about their reputation in the LC than my well-being- didn’t help that my dad was an elder prior moving to a different state for a job opportunity. When they relocated, I was made to live with my controlling grandma instead of moving in with my boyfriend’s family. In short, my grandma couldn’t tolerate my secular lifestyle, so I had to move out on short notice. My dad refused again to help me move to my boyfriend’s family house. I had no choice other than to call up my then-boyfriend to finally make my dad realize that I was not willing to compromise. In other words, I was extremely close to severing ties with my family that day. Had they decided the latter, my story would have become another testimony in how the LC’s and Witness Lee’s legalism breaks up families. (3) The LC lifestyle for kids is quite alien to mainstream society and many church denominations. Fortunately, the LC/LSM not as extreme/harmful/dangerous in comparison to the FLDS, IBLP (association with the Duggar family), and other fundamentalist groups. Being raised as LC kid, however, shared similar parallels with those raised as Jehovah Witnesses, especially if raised with more old-school, conservative principles. From personal experience, I believe the number one reason why LC kids left is because they realized that the practices and attitudes of LCs and LSM are shaping my peers into THEIR copy/paste image. The church and LSM expects them to act, speak, behave, learn, and dress the same under the principle of “What would Witness Lee think and do XYZ if he was still alive to keep the LC gravy train going” (I don’t think it was Witness Lee’s intention to exploit his teachings initially, but I would not be surprised if the brothers who formerly worked directly under him had other plans after his passing). Bluntly speaking, the current LSM encourages their members to join their cult-like lifestyle to benefit their own interests of money and social power among the leading brothers running a non-profit religious institution. The former LC kids (Millennials and younger) I knew eventually left over time upon this realization after college. I met one of my church friends recently as our moms are close friends. We knew each other growing up. I did not need to ask her if she is still part of the LC because she has gotten tattoos, lives under the same roof as her boyfriend, and supports the LGBTQ+ community. Most just stopped attending the LC and lived their lives in relatively normal 8-5PM jobs. I cannot say much about my older brother, but his first girlfriend was relentlessly pushed by my parents to attend the LC meetings with him. Their 6-year relationship fell apart and would not be surprised if the LC pressure on her gave her second thoughts. As for me, I stopped going the Sunday meetings 5 years ago, stopped going to the home meetings right when the pandemic started, and have never returned to any LC functions since then. I am trying to live my normal life with my never-LC husband. However, my parents are still active, and my mom still tries to persuade me to come back to church and eventually convert my husband. I am also in therapy right now to navigate my trauma of being raised as a local church kid. For those who stayed to raise the new LC generation, they learned how not to become their parents who once followed strict upbringing influenced by Witness Lee’s writings. My friend who lives in the neighboring town recently had her second child. Her children are raised with much love and patience, unlike what my parents have done with me. However, my friend and her husband both came from the FTTA which shaped their mannerisms as if they were still in it. The only thing I am concerned about is how they will navigate around the more controversial practices and ideas from Witness Lee as their children become older. (3.5) As for the members reflecting on the Exodus of young people leaving the LC, I cannot say much about it. I did sense fellow members being judgmental towards young people leaving the LC prematurely if they were raised in a single parent home. They blame the lack of shepherding and secular smartphone usage responsible for the Exodus of young people leaving the LC, but with our busy lives and young people trying to figure out themselves it shouldn’t be a surprise. For me, I experienced more corruption, petty politicking, and lies presented by the LC/LSM than enjoying the church’s wholesome teachings. (4) I am still learning to navigate my trauma. The saints in the locality can either grow or break your experience in the LC. It is unfortunate to see how the LCs have changed over time. I could have sworn that the LCs taught us to not delve into heavy politics because of how divisive it is. Yet, I have been seeing more saints becoming more radicalized/politicized to the point I could no longer associate with them anymore. The few bad apples in the higher administration power of the LCs changed the social climate. What was once a community of Christians brought together to support one another was spoiled by greed, power, and selfishness by people who think are better than other saints, including Witness Lee and Watchman Nee, into a cult-like environment and already caused schisms. Young people are tired of being lied to by their (leading) saints to be seen, heard, and feel equal as functioning members in the LC community; hence they leave the LC and never look back. To think that LC/LSM is free from faults & corruption is naïve and ignorant. A lot of the problems in the LC are overlooked or ignored because there is so much denial such as how much we venerate Witness Lee’s teachings/writings in LSM books than the actual Bible itself. |
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| 10-19-2023 05:10 PM | ||||||
| TLFisher |
Re: The Lost and Found of the Local Church Kids Quote:
How you are responded to has everything to do with the full time training. Those that aren't interested for the full time training tend to be neglected. Those that are received much time and attention. |
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| 10-12-2023 08:36 AM | ||||||
| ACuriousFellow |
Re: The Lost and Found of the Local Church Kids Quote:
I do not remember all from the book, and I seem to have misplaced my copy. What I do remember is a deep lamentation within the text of how The Lord’s Recovery loses up to half of its church kids by the time they finish college and how there need to be changes to make sure the church retains its own. It also spoke of how many young ones were stricken with depression and suicidal tendencies due to a lack of love and attention. It emphasized a greater need to love and cherish the young ones and made light of the need of the children’s workers to teach them using the scriptures. There was this thought of “too much bible” and that it was not the goal of the children’s ministry to teach the children regarding such things until the children themselves felt they wanted to. Still, the teaching of the scriptures were to be left primarily to the families, while the children’s workers should focus more on just loving and cherishing and making sure the little ones grow up to be “good vessels” for the Lord who could one day partake of the ministry and perhaps gain their friends from school and bring them into the ministry. I recall that when we started studying this book, we had over a dozen workers in the children’s ministry and a few more in the YP ministry. People would cycle, taking turns each Sunday to lead the children’s and YP meetings, and we would often read stories from the bible to teach kids about God’s people and whatnot. As the year went on, however, there were less and less workers willing to help out. Before I knew it, the only ones who fully dedicated dropped from over a dozen to just about three or four. The pandemic only served to make things even more difficult. By that point, it was pretty much just me and one other brother who were fully dedicated. The lessons had also dwindled to full expositions of the stories of men such as Samuel and Daniel to little blurbs about how to be made into “good vessels” for the Lord. This new format no longer included wider stories and experiences from the bible, but just several songs (10-15 minutes) followed a brief little speaking by one of the teachers about this or that with perhaps a few comments from the little ones (5-ish minutes) and the introduction of a single “memory verse” (about a minute or two, usually). Anyhow, after about a year of studying this book, it was clear that many, for various reasons, no longer sought to work in the children’s ministry, and we were not able to replenish our numbers with more workers. When I conversed with the leading brother in the children’s ministry about getting into the scriptures more, he was resistant and sounded defeated, saying that if we use more scriptures, parents will get upset but that many parents were already upset and complaining that we did not get into the bible more. Less and less children were present in the meetings, and the pandemic made this number drop from about two dozen children on average to about 5 or 6. After the pandemic began to clear up and more people were willing to come to the meetings, I recall having a conversation with my mentor about the YP meetings (middle/high school). These meetings, I felt, were also dwindling in our use of the scriptures, especially considering that these were teenagers who were coming close to becoming young adults. By this point, I felt it pertinent to really dig into the scriptures with them and help them gain more knowledge about the God they believe in and what he has done throughout the ages. Keep in mind that Lee’s teachings were said to have provided for such things, but I know many here will agree with me that Lee’s teachings, in the very best of cases, often falls short of really building these young ones up. After conversing with a few others who seemed to have a heart for the young ones, we went to the elders for guidance, and what they told us was that we should not worry about setting anything up or doing anything by our own effort. I raised concerns regarding the lack of workers, but we were told that the duty of an elder did not include telling others what to do, even through exhortation. We should just get together as the serving ones and “fellowship” until something spontaneously happens. Of course, this “fellowship” did not entail any actual planning or getting into the scriptures, but rather “calling” and “pray-reading” and praying for about half an hour. About once a month, we would check in with the elders, who would once again proceed to tell us to “fellowship” more so that we could grow in love and cherish one another, but none of that fellowship led to anything remotely substantial. After about three months of this, I became incredibly discouraged and decided to no longer participate in such fruitless meetings. About 9 months later, I pulled away from the YP meetings altogether after having served for about 3 years. Sometime after my departure, I met with my mentor and let him know that I had felt disappointed in the elders and their apparent unwillingness to do much for the YP time or to exhort others in the assembly to do something to help. I was met with indignation and a repetition of the old Recovery adage that elders simply aren’t there to tell others what to do, even through exhortation. These things must happen spontaneously, “organically.” I brought up the apostles and how they often exhorted others to do what was right and care for others within the church, but I was met with more indignation. I recalled how there was a sister who was left on her own working with the YP meetings and children’s meetings and how it was not good to have done that to her, but I was told that sisters should not speak up about such matters as sisters should be quiet in the church. I once again mentioned the lack of workers, but I was told that it was no good because they did not have money to pay more full-timers. I mentioned a particular brother that I felt was fit to lead the YP time, but I was shamed for not taking more responsibility upon myself to do more for the young people despite being one of the five or so people left who was actually consistently and faithfully serving with the young people and children. They had dedicated so much time and money and effort to the college students, even in the midst of the pandemic (you can see my testimony on this ministry over on the thread titled "Deceptions on Campus), yet they neglected to provide anything substantial to their own children in the church despite all the cries and lamentations of how the “church kids” were leaving in droves. It was such a paradoxical situation for me, and I was only shunned and shamed for speaking up about it (along with a sister who also worked tirelessly to do more for the young ones). After a few more months, I no longer had the heart to serve even in the children’s ministry to which I was even more dedicated after about 7 years of faithful service. No questions were asked by the other serving ones or the parents. No one checked on me to see why I had backed out. This was the state of the Local Church in my locality for about the last 3 years or so of my tenure in the children's/YP service, and I left that denomination altogether about a year or two after that due to another shameful scenario in which a woman and her family were shamed, slandered, and shunned for questioning Witness Lee's teachings. |
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| 12-08-2020 04:18 AM | ||||||
| NZexCK |
Re: The Lost and Found of the Local Church Kids I regret not investing my time into forming lasting friendships in high school. There was such a mental block though. They were of the world, there was this ulterior motive/pressure from our serving ones to bring them along to meetings and recruit them which felt disingenuous. I really thought the LR would be the rest of my life and my friends in there were all I needed. I was lucky to have extended family of regular Christians that would make an effort to get together each Christmas holiday so despite my immediate family never celebrating or buying gifts, I would get them from grandparents and aunts and would still be able to relate to my friends on a certain level. When I became an independent adult I still thought i would remain in the LC for many years. Things only started to click for me once I became a mother and decided I didn’t want to raise my kids in that environment. I feel like I’m going through my rebellious teenage years now in my late 20s instead of when I should have had them. I think so many kids leave because they realise it was an environment they were spiritually abused in for their entire lives. Seems like most will try out other denominations at some stage and many become agnostic. Something else I hated as a CK was constantly having strangers in my house. We always provided hospitality during conferences, always had different groups of people or trainees coming over for meals. Home is supposed to be your safe place. Not constantly open to people you barely know. Occasionally is fine but it was far too frequent for my comfort. I think initially CKs feel they are weak believers/inferior but it’s comforting when you hear/read all the stories/experiences of other ex CKs out there and realise you weren’t the only one. |
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| 12-07-2020 11:25 AM | ||||||
| SerenityLives |
Re: The Lost and Found of the Local Church Kids Hey Jigsaw I didnt mean to push you away. I dont think you are a monster. I’m glad you started this thread. if you ever want to discuss something with me, I’m more than happy to contribute to your thread here but im just also looking out for the interests of the other church kids. I hope you understand- your sister, Serenity |
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| 10-18-2020 07:47 PM | ||||||
| jigsaw44 |
Re: The Lost and Found of the Local Church Kids Oh man, that is messed up. Sorry it went that way =(. Did you invite them to the club or did they stalk you and just did a hostile take over? I know this seems like a trivial and perhaps irrelevant question since the effect of such said event is detailed in your earlier post. |
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| 10-18-2020 06:15 PM | ||||||
| HBJ |
Re: The Lost and Found of the Local Church Kids As a clarification: When I was in college, fellow LC college students came and took over my college's student nondemoninational Christian club meeting and ran it as an LC meeting. |
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| 10-11-2020 08:24 AM | ||||||
| jigsaw44 |
Re: The Lost and Found of the Local Church Kids Hbj let me get this straight. A group of high schoolers went on campus to your own personal little club and basically took over and ran the thing? How are hs kids allowed to even take over some random college club and for what purpose? I think some background info is missing..... I'm sorry bro but that part confused me |
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| 10-10-2020 05:56 PM | ||||||
| HBJ |
Re: The Lost and Found of the Local Church Kids I was in the LC from ages 12-21 in five different localities. (Because of family problems I moved from my parent's to a sibling's home, who were in the LC) Losing TV didn't bug me too much. I was an avid reader and could get books from the library. Having to give up my stamp collection and record collection really bugged me. If I got really bored I would play 8 handed Monopoly by myself. In 8th grade I wanted to go to a friend from school's house, and was told no, with no further explanation. Since most of the localities were new there were no youth programs, thus no peers to interact with and I was bored. In my 3rd locality, we at school were invited to a Christmas party at another school but needed a permission slip. I forged the signatures so I could go. I knew it wouldn't be ok. I still have the Christmas present I got decades later! In my last locality I finished HS and college. Since it was established, it had an active youth group of peers plus I had friends at school, so I wasn't feeling deprived. However in my second year of college my decision to leave started when LC young people came and took over my college's Christian club meeting and ran it like an LC meeting. I have too many dear Christians in my family who are not LC, and to tell me they are not in the Lord's purpose was a bunch of...…… Even now I enjoy going to various churches and look for Jesus wherever I go. |
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| 10-06-2020 11:43 AM | ||||||
| jigsaw44 |
Re: The Lost and Found of the Local Church Kids Thank you Iseecrazy people. I am doing fine mentally, I guess the biggest reason I am in disgust/unbelief is just how fake the LC can be. It is the most disgusting thing in the world to betray somebodys trust. The whole LC system just seems like servitude (especially for females). I almost got duped into this system if I didn't catch on to early red flags. I'm glad the elders tried to do that BS with me cause, that is what initially made my mind alert (guess the LC needs to be more subtle with their slave practices). Just imagine if I listened to those Lee slaves and broke up with my GF and if she stayed in the LC (very unlikely, but if she did), she would just be a piece of meat like cattle. Sold off to some random man with raging testosterones, who is not allowed to get a woman on his accord like any responsible man would in this world. (I mean no pun intended to the man with raging testosterone, cause he is by force not allowed to be his own man and find a woman). |
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| 10-06-2020 09:00 AM | ||||||
| ISeeCrazyPeople |
Re: The Lost and Found of the Local Church Kids Jigsaw, I find that so absurd that the elders would want you to end your relationship. Major red flag. And imagine if you grew up in this church to begin with.. you probably would never have had a girlfriend to begin with. Though I have read that women are treated differently than the men in this church, so I'm not sure what it would have been like to be raised a male in this church (I also only have sisters). I keep reading other people who write about how the sisters in the church were suppressed and not able to speak up and other things like that. I do remember sisters had to wear "head coverings" which were usually doilies folded in half. I personally was often oblivious to what was going on, and was so bored and hardly payed attention in the long winded meetings (I had to sit through them starting in junior high), so I might not have noticed the suppression of women as much as I could have. Sorry, that was a tangent. But if you don't agree with most of the practices, and are only held back by your friends, is it possible you leave ASAP but still remain friends with them? If they are truly "normal" guys like you say, they will probably understand. You probably don't even have to go into detail as to why you are leaving. You could just .. slip away. I have one friend that still attends the church, but not in my area, and we never talk about it. I have a couple other "acquaintances" who I'm on friendly terms with and talk to occasionally who are involved in the church. I know your circumstances might be different though. I just hope for your mental health, you can get away ASAP. Best of luck! |
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| 10-04-2020 11:34 PM | ||||||
| jigsaw44 |
Re: The Lost and Found of the Local Church Kids To Iseecrazypeople, I am at a crossroads right now with the LC. The only thing holding me back are some college age brothers who I have a great time with. These brothers are in the LC and like their experience so far but they are not deep enough in the waters to have been drowned and consumed by the interest of the LC. They sing and go to meetings and all that but they fully intend to do normal things such as casual dating and going to the movies and such, getting a full time job and not go to FTTA. They are sort of like me- normal and reasonable people (no pun intended to people following LC lifestyle), but I feel as though to leave the LC, I have to leave it completely and that includes them. Yes indeed, I am trying to assess my final decision and this website definitely sealed the deal for me. I have no intention of staying here long term. I would never ever want to raise kids here, this environment just seems horrible (felt terrible reading trapped post about the kid with the national geographic magazine, like what in the heck is wrong with these people). Quote from Trapped- "I remember one of the young people I knew growing up had to get rid of their "National Geographic World - Kids" magazines because they had the word "World" on the cover and their parents told them "the world is evil". As for my girlfriend, we are doing well and after reading the ways of relationships and how they are maintained and arranged in the LC, it made angrier, thinking back on how the elders tried to manipulate me in ending the relationship. In fact I just remember another thread I was supposed to make. Going to back to the point, I'm just trying to make sense of the witness lee churches and I guess I'm just starting to piece together if any of this was real. I mean do these people have emotions and minds of their own or are they just lee slaves? I can tell when somebody is a fake and whether they are genuinely who they portray to be. They seem sweet but Is it simply cause I am currently seen as LC friendly? I know a lot of these people are nice people in general but it is just such a nasty thing to betray someone's trust and deceive them. I cant even formulate my thoughts properly and just going on tangents, overall I'm just disappointed. I originally thought student org on campus was just a genuine place where Christians from all backgrounds came to meet and have a great time, while some of that is true, its just a ruse. Everything I heard on here to purposely not showing lee material right away and waiting till they suck you in and love bomb and decide to trust you with introducing lee material. There so much more I have learned from here on how they do so many things to deceive and gain FTTA potentials from campus. I'm just like- how fake can you be? You put so much effort in being a deceptive snake instead of just being honest with who you are and what you represent and believe. In conclusion, nothing seemed real with the LC. There are some who have positive experiences with the LC and a lot of people with negative experiences. I disagree with a lot of the practices and that's just me. If a person fits well with the customs of the LC then good for them. It isn't for me and the only thing holding me on is a few good hearted people who desperately wanted to live a good life in Christ and found their way there. Eventually I will depart from them to and the clock is ticking on when that happens. It feels weird now thinking I'm just looking for the perfect escape opportunity while I'm hanging out with them and just thinking, would it have been better if I never meet you in the first place, if I'm just going to leave without a trace any day now? |
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| 10-04-2020 05:30 PM | ||||||
| ISeeCrazyPeople |
Re: The Lost and Found of the Local Church Kids Jigsaw, thank you for your reply. I became curious though as to why you are asking all of these questions. So I went to read your initial post here. So, you are a current LC member? Are you looking to leave, and trying to make your decision based off of information you find out? I am certainly not going to judge you for wanting to do that. Please feel free to tell me though why you wanted to join it at all in the first place. We obviously have very different backgrounds.. you, making a personal decision to join as an adult, and me, being forced into it as a child. I think I DO miss having a sort of group to belong to. I still feel like I had a hard time leaving something that I grew up in, and am still trying to find a group where I truly belong. For some people, like myself, that might not even end up being a church group. I also saw your comment about relationships. I found this part very amusing: "But some these are men in their mid thirties sitting their hopelessly and sad, not realizing they might need to expand their world outside the local churches to get what they want. Having a woman/spouse is one of the most essential things for a man to have and to make it so hard for grown men to even have a basic interaction with woman (talking, standard dating),to me makes no sense. Especially when some men are by default of certain qualities, going to have a harder time dating/finding a woman " I would expect maybe the church got better now that it's 2020, but apparently not, haha!! It was actually not very funny for me as a female. The story about my transition period I was going to mention has to do with a very bad relationship I ended up in. My life was completely turned upside down because of this and it took me years to recover and become a strong and independent woman. I still don't feel super comfortable mentioning it here. I think what I'm waiting for is to hear from another person (female would be better just because of relatability) who group up in the LC who can truly understand the hardships I went through and the serious consequences it had on my life. So, are you a bit concerned about how being in the LC might affect you and your girlfriend? Or maybe your future children (if you want kids) if you stay in the LC? |
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| 10-03-2020 08:31 PM | ||||||
| TLFisher |
Re: The Lost and Found of the Local Church Kids Growing Up-Being raised in the local churches and depending on the localities I lived in friends varied. My grade school years my friends were primarily churchkids. Middle school and high school very few friends were local church. By those years I began to see the on/off switch. One personality for school-life and another personality for the meeting-life. Transition-As I went from high school student to college student, the concept of “submission and authority” was till present. No matter my opinion, those older than me are always right. Couple that with “The New way”, I saw college as a means to distance myself from the local churches. Reflection- LC lifestyle is only for those who embrace LSM brand of fellowship; adult or young people. If one wants to be a general Christian not wanting a ministry center, go find fellowship somewhere else. Why do LC kids forego the LC? Currently I think LC kids are filled with socialist ideology which is like “oil and water” when it comes Christianity. Others were directly affected by LC legalism. Not being supported by their parents against the legalism did irreparable harm. Each LC kid has their story whether they continue their faith (just not with LC fellowship) or whether they come to reject their Christian upbringing. Quote:
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| 10-03-2020 07:56 PM | ||||||
| jigsaw44 |
Re: The Lost and Found of the Local Church Kids Back in this thread again! Thank you for this post crazy, appreciate the detailed insight. For me personally go full throttle with your "transitional" period in life. People here express their turmoil with the LC all the time. Give details of that point in your life at your discretion. Also why do so many LC parents homeschool? Do they consider education to be "worldly"? Regardless, welcome to this forum and enjoy being here. In fact I will make another thread that I would like inight on to by Long time LC members. So feel free to hop in that thread to. |
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| 10-03-2020 05:17 PM | ||||||
| ISeeCrazyPeople |
Re: The Lost and Found of the Local Church Kids First of all, hello. I would like to say, I like your questions, because I have not yet made an initial post yet, and think that answering your questions is a good starting point for me. Just for some background information about me- I am a female in my 30s. I grew up as a “church kid” in the local church. My parents had joined this church group long before I was born. I never enjoyed sitting through church meetings as a child. They were very complex, long winded (3 or 4 hours on Sundays at least), full of testimonies, “pray-reading,” and other things that I barely understood. I have browsed through many of the comments on here so far, and many people seem like biblical scholars to me. Some of the talk here reminds me of the type of talk I used to hear. I think much of this stuff was forced down my throat as a child, but, I somehow managed to either never learn much, or just to easily forget most of the things I was supposed to learn. Maybe I wasn’t a typical LC church kid. Anyway, I will answer some of your questions now. Going to school was difficult for me. For one, I was homeschooled off and on. When I did start going to school, I was incredibly shy, I think mostly due to my lack of socialization from an early age. I never went to preschool or kindergarten. I hardly remember much of my earlier years I think because of this. When I did start public school, I felt really left out. I remember having to sit out from singing any Christmas songs with other kids up on stage. Anytime the topic of Christmas or any other holiday came up at school, I became really nervous and scared that I would be found out for being different. Back then, I don’t think teachers were as aware of diversity in beliefs. I remember the Spanish teacher going around the room and asking what everyone got for Christmas in Spanish, and I was petrified. I hated when my friends found out. They assumed I was a Jehovah’s Witness. It made no sense to them that I was a Christian that didn’t celebrate Christmas. I don’t think my parents or the church provided me with enough information to stand up for myself when confronted about these things. I just felt “different.” My parents only sort of celebrated birthdays. They really played them down and didn’t make a big deal out of them. I never had a real party with friends. As for friends, I was never specifically told I couldn’t have friends outside of the church, but I had difficulty making and keeping friends (especially after middle school) because of my poor self-esteem and feeling different. Even within the church, I felt like I was not as “cool” as some of the other kids, who didn’t have parents that were as strict as me. This may be too much information, but I was very sheltered, had the most uncool clothes, wasn’t provided with any “worldy” items like CDs, never was taken to the movies or an amusement park by my parents, and had limited access to television shows (anything rated above G, I was probably not allowed to watch.. maybe saw some occasional PG things once I was a teenager). I wasn’t strictly told I couldn’t go to dances, but I don’t think I ever asked. I was too scared. I didn’t go to prom. I really regret that. To be honest, I really tried hard to follow the rules set before me, and was scared of my parents.. and now that I know more about the church and how it’s different from other mainstream Christian churches.. I realize that my parents were greatly influenced by the church. I would call their style Authoritarian- follow their rules and don’t ask questions. So for your question about how I dealt with all of this.. I suppressed my feelings and sucked it up. I never had romantic relationships in high school (even though I would have liked to), so rejecting people wasn’t an issue. I was under the impression that my parents thought relationships and dating “lead to divorce” and that it was sinful. I never tried to date because I was scared that I would get in trouble. My transition period: If I ever get around to it, and you or anyone else is interested, I can tell you how this all turned out for me. It wasn’t very good. After high school, I eventually “snapped” and things got really ugly very fast. It’s a bit of a personal story, so I will see if this basic information gets any reactions first, and if I can feel comfortable enough to tell it. But, to answer your other question, I did not think outside life was inferior.. and I DID feel powerless and wanted to be rebellious against my parents. I was jealous of all the kids around me who could do things I couldn’t. And at the same time had tons of GUILT if I ever did desire a more “wordly” life.. I’m not sure if you are personally an ex LCer, so not sure if you know the terms.. they say lots of normal things are “wordly” and not of God… it drove me crazy. I think many of the LC kids from my particular locality are still in the church. I’m friends with them on facebook, but don’t ever see them in person or really interact with them much at all. I have only one remaining friend from the church, and she moved away from the area. We never talked much about church things when we were together. I think from the ones that did leave that I know, they are not spiritual people anymore at all from what I can guess based off of facebook. But again.. we don’t really talk. I honestly think it would be nice to reconnect with some people that have a similar past with me, but that’s why I am participating in this group right now. I haven’t talked about this stuff with anyone in years. And my husband has NO clue what I’m talking about because he grew up Catholic. So, that is all I have to say for now. I thank you again for asking those questions. I did not answer all of them exactly, but gave it a shot. Excuse me for being lengthy.. there is still so much more I could share! I am looking forward to interacting more on this discussion site in the future. |
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| 10-03-2020 04:28 PM | ||||||
| jigsaw44 |
Re: The Lost and Found of the Local Church Kids Go right ahead and If anyone else wants to chime in, come right in and join the conversation. |
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| 10-03-2020 12:04 PM | ||||||
| Unregistered |
Re: The Lost and Found of the Local Church Kids Hello. I like your post and would like to answer some of these questions. I am currently "unregistered" and requested a membership, so am first going to test if my response goes through without a membership. |
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| 09-27-2020 02:20 PM | ||||||
| Trapped |
Re: The Lost and Found of the Local Church Kids Quote:
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| 09-27-2020 01:47 PM | ||||||
| jigsaw44 |
Re: The Lost and Found of the Local Church Kids Oh man this thread is empty, I was really looking forward to hear the detailed testimonies of LC grown people. Feel free to chime in if you want, I'm pretty sure other people than I would be curious to. |
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| 09-25-2020 06:07 PM | ||||||
| jigsaw44 |
The Lost and Found of the Local Church Kids jigsaw here again with another thread with the emphasis on all of those who grew up or knew anyone who grew up in the Local Churches. Reason/inspiration for the thread- Was talking to a brother during a conference (east coast), and among the conversation was the topic of local church friends he knew while growing up and just mass amounts of them just leaving the local churches and even forgoing their beliefs entirely or just barely being described as nominal. This conversation took at the height my "cynical/skepticism thoughts of the local churches. Present time- Now after seeing LC Kids being raised when visiting the homes of different brothers/sisters and witnessing all the customs and rules of the Local churches being applied in these lives (no birthdays/holidays/no tv). Im just wondering how is it like on a grand scale of many years- being raised by the Local church for the entirety of your K-12 life? I will now present my questions for anyone who can answer 1. Growing Up- How was it like growing up, especially going to school and just interacting with the outside world? How did it feel to not be able to celebrate certain holidays such as Christmas and birthdays/ and explaining it to your friends from school? Were you allowed to have outside friends and if so was it hard to adjust your lifestyle in accordance to theirs? What about going into high school and not being able to go to prom, or constantly rejecting people who had feelings for you, and to overall enjoy the basic joys of being a teenager? How did you cope dealing with your home life restrictions/legalism while comparing it to other friends? These basic questions are just scratching the surface of - Did you just simply see the outside life as inferior and never let it affect you or was it constantly bothering you leaving you powerless or perhaps rebellious towards your parents? - For my numbered questions I am giving alot of examples/scenarios to give you an idea of what im looking for. You don't have to answer the questions exactly as I worded them. So if you have a specific story or example that answers or relates to question 1 feel free to give it to me. 2. Transition- Upon being independent adults or at least being 18 and moving on to the next step in your life. What was your initial mindset? Were you eager to continue the Local Church Legalism lifestyle or perhaps just drowned in it so long you feel like you have no other way to live? Maybe you were rebellious and plotting to abandon what has established so far in your life? Or you were caught in a rift and couldn't tell whether you wanted a taste of the outside or to remain in the LC life due to(pressure/fear from family, friends etc._. - What ever it was like at this point in your life please do tell and specific stories are wonderful. 3. Reflection - How do you reflect on the LC lifestyle for Kids. Why do you think or know the reason for the departure of so many LC kids. What do you think the deal breaker is for LC kids to forgo the LC? From your personal experience where do the lost LC kids go? Do they let go of their beliefs entirely or go to another denomination, or just stay lost not sure where to go or how to go their lives. - For question 3 as well as all the other questions- It would be wonderful if you all could give anecdotal stories. 3.5 Do the LC members consider and reflect on the exodus of many young LC kids? Or do they brush it off aside and simply think they are weak believers or inferior? Do LC people consider the causes of people leaving? 4.- Any other thoughts/ possible questions you will to chime in on? Please do tell about anything that can expand on this conversation/topic. |
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