Local Church Discussions - Reply to Topic

Additional Options
Miscellaneous Options Automatically parse links in text

03-30-2011 11:59 AM

NeitherFirstnorLast

Re: Adios, amigo

Quote:

One of the most striking things to me about this site and those who frequent it is how much impact the LC had on them. Some here have been away from the LC for over twenty years (not sure about you, Mike). That's a long time to still be driven to argue things. My take is it's because the LC really did have something, something that none of us finds outside it.

Back in the early 70's there was a conference in St. Louis where the theme was that we've all been "wrecked." I remember coming back to Indy and having a meeting where everybody kept jumping up and saying, "I've been wrecked for the Lord!" What a prophecy! We really have been wrecked. So very few have made it out of the LC into mainstream Christianity. Don Rutledge wrote movingly on how he is pretty much rejected by everyone in the Christian realm: the LSMers, the Christian he meets who always discover his LC past, even other LC churches who aren't in the LSM way anymore. I was deeply touched by that post. I have been wrecked in the same way. I have no where to go but to the Lord.

SC

Ah Saints,

Were you "wrecked"? There was a broadcast today (March 30, 2011) by Chuck Swindoll on Insight for Living on just such a matter as this - and God's Word on the subject from the book of 2nd Peter. It was very illuminating, and in case you can't link to it (http://www.insight.org/broadcast/), please allow me to post some of it here; from March 30th, 2011: "Insights from 2 Peter: Conquering through Conflict". ...It really sounds like he's addressing the LSM local church at some points here; I believe this message was originally recorded back in 1989...

Quote:

Chuck Swindoll of Insight for Living - message mate

Almost as long as there has been the genuine, there has been the counterfeit. Whether
art or money, authentic products or original publications, education or religion,
phonies have been around. Such deception can lead to financial loss — as well as to
destroyed lives. Any act of fraudulence is hurtful, but none is more hurtful than false
prophets and phony teachers who present their lives behind religious masks. War
stories abound of those who have fallen to these deceivers! To the surprise of many, the
Bible reserves some of its severest words for those who act as though they are true but
are indeed false . . . and the first three verses of 2 Peter 2 is a classic case in point.

Counterfeiters are very, very good at what they do. They will bring their deceptions to you
and parade them alongside Orthodoxy so that they look and feel so right, so good.... but at
some point they will ask you to choose. To choose between what you grew up learning and
what they are teaching. To choose between what you've always known and this new thing
that they are talking about. These men are dangerous, and what they are teaching is a heresy.

Starting Your Journey

How do you spot false teachers? Here are three simple tips. First, STOP: deliberately
refuse to follow a teacher just because he or she seems okay. Second, LOOK: make
careful observations into the life of the teacher and his or her followers. Third, LISTEN:

scrutinize everything you hear through the filter of the Scripture.

False teachers destroy lives; they are "mind benders" that can change the way you think.

Let me tell you, there was far far less in the theology that came from LSM than was worth retaining. It was a beautiful mirage, with no substance. It didn't stand on God's Word, but Lee's interpretations. That's why the Saints are so strongly encouraged to read the Word only with footnotes, and to study Lee's "Lifestudies" in place of God's Word. So that your pliable mind can be bent.

Saints, I ask you: Did Lee give up his life for you? Did Lee ransom you from sin? Is Lee your Father, Is Lee the Spirit, Is Lee the Christ? No. Christ ransomed you - and to Christ alone do we bow. You were bought for a price, and you owe your life to Him who bought you, and no other.

This blog talks about songs. Worldly songs can contain a taste of truth (I have enjoyed many myself of course), but they too are 'tainted' (please, I mean no offense using this term, but our very world is tainted - we, humanity, is tainted - sin did this; apart from Christ all things are tainted), and lack real wisdom. Let me quote from a popular Christian song today instead, when I say "It is not about what you've done, but what's been done for you. It is not about where you've been, but where your brokenness brings you to." It should bring you closer to Him.

Jesus Christ is Lord; behold - He makes all things new. He cleansed the lepers and raised the dead, do you really believe that He can't do that for you?

In Christ,

NeitherFirstnorLast

09-09-2008 06:31 AM

aron

Quote:

Originally Posted by djohnson

Having current LCS members here would sure spice things up but let's not forget how many lurkers there appears to be reading the content. My guess is a lot of these lurkers may be current LCS members who are learning for the first time what a crazy system they are in.

To me it is irrelevant how many "lurkers", i.e. those who read but do not post, are reading our threads. We are christians; we believed into Jesus Christ and now are on a journey with Him. He is shepherding us to the Father. We post because of our journey with Christ.

Believe in Jesus, follow Him, respect those whom He places alongside. Whether any fence-sitters happen to be swayed by your words is up to Him. Take care of your relationship with Jesus and whatever words that come out of your mouth or keyboard will find their destination. Where that destination is, is irrelevant, to me.

Let me rephrase: we speak because God is doing something. He is saving humankind through the person of His Son Jesus. We are testifying to the power of that great salvation. We don't need to "do" anything, as in persuade lurkers they are in a crazy system. We merely testify to small and great of the wonderful saving power of the love of God in Christ Jesus that has come into our hearts.

What happens to our testimony, and from our testimony, is up to God, not us.

08-28-2008 03:16 PM

djohnson

08-28-2008 02:54 PM

Cal

By the way, I'm remiss to neglect saying, Mike take care and may the river of life rise up to meet you.

08-28-2008 02:44 PM

Cal

moved to new thread

08-28-2008 12:53 PM

SpeakersCorner

Adios, amigo

MikeH,

We'll miss you, brother. Actually, maybe I won't because I really need to bow out myself ... again. It's ridiculous that I spend so much time here. I do enjoy the joust, at times, but what good is it doing me? Sometimes, when I get into a theological discussion, I do get the benefit of having to do some research to support my points. That's pretty good. But often it's just a melee.

I do agree fully with your points about the missing opposition. It seems to me that this forum has become kind of the bizarro LSM: same dogmatic, demonization of the other side. I've tried to play the devil's advocate and I am the most pro-Witness Lee voice here, I believe. But this place needs a Bilbodog in the worst kind of a way. Gosh, I miss that ol' coon dog.

One of the most striking things to me about this site and those who frequent it is how much impact the LC had on them. Some here have been away from the LC for over twenty years (not sure about you, Mike). That's a long time to still be driven to argue things. My take is it's because the LC really did have something, something that none of us finds outside it.

Back in the early 70's there was a conference in St. Louis where the theme was that we've all been "wrecked." I remember coming back to Indy and having a meeting where everybody kept jumping up and saying, "I've been wrecked for the Lord!" What a prophecy! We really have been wrecked. So very few have made it out of the LC into mainstream Christianity. Don Rutledge wrote movingly on how he is pretty much rejected by everyone in the Christian realm: the LSMers, the Christian he meets who always discover his LC past, even other LC churches who aren't in the LSM way anymore. I was deeply touched by that post. I have been wrecked in the same way. I have no where to go but to the Lord.

My hope and my inspiration is that we, the wrecked ones, are like the vessel the potter was working on in Jeremiah 18:

"Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words. Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold he wrought a work on the wheels. And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it."

It seems we were marred but it also seems the Lord may be looking us over, considering how to refashion us.

Anyway, goodbye Mike. I may join you.

SC

08-28-2008 11:30 AM

OBW

We’ve Lost our Way

I know that I will probably violate this vow once again, but I really need to bow out. The direction has been lost. The few threads of any merit lie unengaged. The ones that get all the attention are entirely too antagonistic and like a witch hunt to attract the LC crowd.

Which is one of the biggest flaws with this forum. We are all alone here. Except for Paul M, I don’t think any of the true LC crowd has even said “boo.” Pat C signed up, but never posted and never visited after that day. We have no real controversy.

So it appears we have to make it ourselves. At one level, I despise all that the LC has done to rob real Christians of a real Christian life. But I’m not here to hit them over the head with a 2x4. They need to see something that is concrete and cannot be denied. They need to see the real scriptures at the same time that they see Lee’s teaching on it. They need to see the truth about the leaders that they assume are doing a godly thing for them. We aren’t going to convince Benson. We might convince someone who is just hanging on. That one may convince another.

They don’t need to see bands of ex-LCers gathering at the end of the block under a broken street light with bats and lead pipes. Some will say this is not happening. But the lack of outside opposition is deafening. They knew this would happen before the migration began. Some said they would not move because they would not have the same protection. They may have been right.

In any case, I need to let the number of unread posts pile up for a while. I note that the BARM super-moderators effectively killed that site. It is a ghost town. The only thing going on is Steward and her KJV (oops, RecV) non-discussion and Pat is still trying to convince BoxJoBox that Jesus is God. It would be a shame that too much enthusiasm coupled with too much freedom ultimately does the same for this forum.

Remember it may be lawful, but not wise.

For now, it will have to do without me. (“You won’t have OBW to kick around anymore” an approximate quote for you history buffs.)

07-30-2008 04:09 AM

OBW

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Mike, I thought your avatar looked a little familiar ...

Wasn't that the album that opened with the line, "Blasting, billowing, bursting forth with the power of ten billion butterfly sneezes ..."?

It was a British tease on the American manned space flight program.

Great stuff!

Yep. That's the one. Never actually thought that much of that particular "poem" — a little preachy.

The most interesting song in that line though was "Floating." Actually quite a kids fantasy song, although I'm sure many thought it iwas about drug culture.

07-30-2008 02:21 AM

Ohio

Quote:

Originally Posted by OBW

Had to add something now that the avatars are up and working.

My avatar and byline are related. The avatar is the album cover of To Our Children’s Children’s Children by the Moody Blues (1969). The byline is the opening lines from their album On the Threshold of a Dream (also 1969).

I like the picture because it shows antiquity yet looks forward beyond the generations already alive. The byline is a reflection upon myself. I think I have a good mind. I believe what I believe. But I am not deluded into thinking that I’m completely right and will not change. But for now, if I didn’t believe in my opinions, I would change them. Would you be willing to try? I will defend them, but not with a closed mind (at least as far as I am able to discern).

If you hadn’t guessed that I like the Moody Blues, you weren’t thinking about it too hard. It’s mostly about the music. But I do like some of the ideas they express. Not the ones about New Age sort of stuff, but they did do a lot of introspective things that I have found insightful.

The curtain rises on the scene
With someone shouting to be free
The play unfolds before my eyes
There stands the actor who is ... me

Ever feel that way? I know I do. It may not be "Christian" but it is true.

Mike, I thought your avatar looked a little familiar ...

07-25-2008 11:48 AM

countmeworthy

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

... there is continuity in the human experience, which your avatar touches on.

Lee made the error of trying to do a 'clean break' from the christian tradition, and the fruit of his move has shown itself to be quite regressive and reactionary. It is not progress. Progress is incremental, and builds on the past. Christianity, for all its errors, has a continuity that links back to the church fathers, and through them to the apostles and Christ, and thus to our heavenly Father.

All the groups that try this "clean slate" approach err precisely in this vein. Yes, the past is full of mistakes, but God wants you to build on it. The foundation of the christian experience has been laid. Don't try to build another one. If you don't care for the traditions of the past, fine. Keep it to yourself. If you attempt to institutionalize (i.e. make them conditions for fellowship, and impose them on others) your rejection of the past you merely create new human traditions, apart from God, and worse than before.

What Excellent insight brother 'A'

(for Aron)

You touched on some much needed TRUTH that I can relate to! After leaving the LC, I'd visit a church here & there to prove to myself my 'openness'. But I really had a hard time swallowing some of the teaching/preaching. I tried not to be judgmental but I was.

Eventually, I just wandered in the wilderness..going around and around the same ole' mountain the Israelites did for 40 yrs. Thankfully, I only wandered 25 years!

That was long enough though!!!!

So once I immersed myself back into the Word of God, fellowshipping with Christians who freely talk about Christianity without painting a negative picture of it as we did, the sectarian stronghold over me broke.

'You' need proof?

My posts reflect how I live & who I AM in Christ Jesus. I think that is why I come to these forums, especially this one. I want to encourage my brothers & sisters in Christ who are or were in the LC.
..that we may all May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
[Ephesians 3:18-19]
I kid you not....sometimes I feel like I'm about to experience a Heavenly Explosion in my spirit, soul and body!!!

07-25-2008 09:04 AM

Peter Debelak

Quote:

Originally Posted by OBW

BTW. Igzy reminded me that the song from The Music Man is "Sadder but Wiser Girl." I had already decided upon Older But Wiser and then the song came to me later. I guess if I had seen The Music Man a little more recently I would not have made the erroneous connection.

If my mother had her way, we'd all watch the Music Man at least once a year. For me, however, when I see the Wells Fargo Wagon a-coming down the street, I shout "Eee gads!" and then tuck-tail and run!

Peter

P.S. Actually, of the army of musicals I was raised on, this one ain't so bad...

07-25-2008 07:49 AM

OBW

07-25-2008 07:04 AM

aron

Quote:

Originally Posted by OBW

That reminded me of something. There was an album that came out in 1968, I believe. The Child is Father to the Man by Blood Sweat and Tears.

And that

reminded me of a poem by John Dryden (The Hind and the Panther) that had the lines:

By education most have been misled
So they believe, because they were so bred
The priest continues what the nurse began
And thus the child imposes on the man

It reminded me that there is continuity in the human experience, which your avatar touches on. Lee made the error of trying to do a 'clean break' from the christian tradition, and the fruit of his move has shown itself to be quite regressive and reactionary. It is not progress. Progress is incremental, and builds on the past. Christianity, for all its errors, has a continuity that links back to the church fathers, and through them to the apostles and Christ, and thus to our heavenly Father.

All the groups that try this "clean slate" approach err precisely in this vein. Yes, the past is full of mistakes, but God wants you to build on it. The foundation of the christian experience has been laid. Don't try to build another one. If you don't care for the traditions of the past, fine. Keep it to yourself. If you attempt to institutionalize (i.e. make them conditions for fellowship, and impose them on others) your rejection of the past you merely create new human traditions, apart from God, and worse than before.

On a personal, and related note, if you see my testimony, I was a self-styled hedonist. I wanted pleasure, and fun. The word we used for massive consumption of drugs and alcohol was 'party'. If you met someone new, you said, "Do you party?" Consumption of drugs & alcohol was equivalent to "fun". I wanted to have a good time. Life was too short to labor, to groan and sweat and strain for some elusive goal. For five bucks you could get a 12-pack of beer, open the can or bottle, and 'voila', you have arrived at the destination. Every time I drank I felt as if I had won the Gold Medal at the Olympics, or the Nobel or Pulitzer Prize. It was time to celebrate!

Eventually, when I realized I was eating husks with the hogs, I repented and turned to the Father through my believing in His Son Jesus Christ. And when I came into the 'local church' life it was a party to the max. No "works", just "fun". Call on the name of the Lord, Praise God, sing and shout and cry out, pray and praise and declare. I loved it! It was the hedonist's dream. No hangovers, no lies, no guilty concience. As Isaiah said, "Come without money and price" It was freely given, and of incalculable worth. Just sing and shout and pray and declare. Marvelous!

Eventually, the bureaucrats and bossy people really ruined the fun. It went from "Grace" back to "Law", so I left. Today I am in many ways the same. I want to enjoy myself today, not groan toward some elusive goal. God did everything already in Christ Jesus. Our job is to appreciate, to enjoy, to praise, to thank, to "amen" God's choice, Jesus the Nazarene, the manifestation of God's love for us. Anything apart from that is, to me, a distraction and a stumbling.

OBW, I confess I probably dragged your avatar pretty far afield. I now return it; thanks for the loan.

07-24-2008 11:07 AM

countmeworthy

Quote:

Originally Posted by OBW;

[B

I will preface this by saying that we had once spent a weekend in Houston to work on the presses there, so moving to Irving with the possibility of doing more was promising. I reached out to help with the publishing by proofreading a chapter in one of the books on which they were working[/B].

When I turned my work back in I learned from the person in charge of that effort that I had made several grammatical errors according to the style handbook they were using. I later discovered that they were specifically using older rules of grammar and punctuation that had been out of vogue even in the versions used by university and professional publications for years. [/B]The smugness and certainty of this brother may not have risen to the level of an offense, but it really did bother me. After that, I decided that the printing was not for me.

It was not YOU that made the grammatical errors, Mike ! It was them! I AM sooo glad you pointed this out.

I've never been an English major myself but I recall the style in which the life studies were written. There was something quirky about the style in which it was written. A LOT of people didn't seem to notice it but I sure did! & you bringing up the 'correction' of 'grammatical errors' you made confirms exactly what I had sensed all along!

People don't write in the style the life studies were written. And that style of writing was deliberate. Ever hear or read on the 'transfer of spirits'?

It was then 'transfered' in to the LC lingo. The use of 'These ones' for instance, always drove me & still drives me bonkers.

If you ask me, it was a controlling technique used by the ministry. Lee had to have been behind it.

07-24-2008 10:44 AM

countmeworthy

Quote:

Originally Posted by OBW

My avatar and byline are related. The avatar is the album cover of To Our Children’s Children’s Children by the Moody Blues (1969). The byline is the opening lines from their album On the Threshold of a Dream (also 1969).

.. The byline is a reflection upon myself. I think I have a good mind. I believe what I believe.

If you hadn’t guessed that I like the Moody Blues, you weren’t thinking about it too hard. It’s mostly about the music.
The curtain rises on the scene
With someone shouting to be free
The play unfolds before my eyes
There stands the actor who is ... me

Ever feel that way? I know I do. It may not be "Christian" but it is true.

Mike.... Your avatar is awesome. I too am standing on a Threshold of a Dream...my dream is to see the FACE of Jesus our Lord and King. I am convinced it will be soon too!!

And I used to love the Moody Blues!

As for your mind...some might think you are 'out of your mind'.

...all teasing aside, OF COURSE you have a good mind! Your mind is being renewed day by day..and the Bible also tells us WE have the MIND of Christ.

So that means you have a MOST EXCELLENT MIND!! YOU have the MIND of CHRIST! It may not be glorified yet but it'll get there.

We walk by Faith...not by sight. FAITH is the Substance of things hoped for. Faith is the evidence of things not seen.

07-24-2008 09:45 AM

Cal

Quote:

Originally Posted by OBW

I like the picture because it shows antiquity yet looks forward beyond the generations already alive. The byline is a reflection upon myself. I think I have a good mind. I believe what I believe. But I am not deluded into thinking that I’m completely right and will not change. But for now, if I didn’t believe in my opinions, I would change them. Would you be willing to try? I will defend them, but not with a closed mind (at least as far as I am able to discern).

Mike,

I've been enjoying Chesterton lately. I enjoyed these quotes from him which are right in line with your point.

"Bigotry is an incapacity to conceive seriously the alternative to a proposition."

"It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unable to imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong."

P.S. I like the "Moodies" too. Always did.

07-24-2008 09:06 AM

OBW

06-06-2008 02:30 PM

UntoHim

Quote:

Originally Posted by Testing123

Thanks for sharing, Mike (OBW). I appreciate learning from your journey.

Me too Mike! Thanks!

Quote:

Originally Posted by OBW

I’m a bit sirprised that the system has allowed this much at one time. While I don't typically write this much at once, I'm not known for one-line posts.

For the time being there will be virtually no limit to the length of a post. Of course this may change depending on band-width limitations down the road.

05-28-2008 09:10 AM

Testing123

Thanks for sharing, Mike (OBW). I appreciate learning from your journey.

05-02-2008 01:18 PM

OBW

OBW — My Journey

While somewhat long, this is a sketch of my journey to, trough, and beyond the LC.

My name is Mike (as can be seen in the signature at the bottom). I’ve lived virtually my whole life in the Dallas area, being born to parents who themselves were born in Dallas.

Until the middle of my senior year of high school, we attended an Assemblies of God church. During the last 2 or 3 years of that time, we had some contact with various inner life teachers. During early high school, relatives in Florida introduced my parents to Watchman Nee. My Dad went out a bought a couple of his books and even began to try to use them as part of a Bible study he was involved in at the church. It did not receive the interest from his peers that he expected.

Then, in the fall of 1972, my brother ran into another student at our high school that went to the Church in Dallas. When my Dad found out about the link between Nee and Lee, he began to investigate. We began to go to a meeting now and then. By January, 1973, we severed ties to the AOG and were fully “in the church.”

I will admit that from the very beginning, I was never going to be a “burning,” “ambitious to be an elder” type. (It turns out that was one of the reasons that my wife decided she might marry me.) Since our situation was a complete family joining up, the kind of extremes that often occurred in the corporate-living situations were only heard about and not experienced.

I think that before I was even out of college, I had a realization that there were spiritual and scriptural truths that I was learning from the LC, but that there were some aspects of the outward practices from which I seemed to want to stay just a little bit apart. (With this sentence you can also see that I have become somewhat of a grammatical stickler despite the fact that I was only an OK English student. I don’t hold others to my standards and also know that I do not do everything “by the book.”) Someone mentioned the Revelation (I think) training recently. I recall sitting in my chair, drawing pictures of battleships — “destroying the destroyers.” Yep. I wasn’t going to be an elder.

Graduated from college in 77 (four years straight through — didn’t seem that common among my LC peers). Spent about 10 months in Arlington, then moved back to Dallas. Married in 79. Moved to Irving at the end of 82. Left in about August of 87. Essentially went immediately to a Bible Church nearby and we are still there after over 20 years.

The road out probably came in stages. I was bothered a little by some of the turn-it-on and turn-it-off control. The first I saw was in 73 when the “Christ v Religion” fever went through. There was a conference in Dallas. Some from other cities were waving cheerleader’s pom-poms in the meetings. Green and white — my school. It bugged me. Suddenly in one meeting, either James Barber or John Ingalls (one of those two was in the conference but I can’t remember which) rose and said about two sentences and the pom-poms disappeared along with a lot of other over-the-top stuff that had been going on. I appreciated the sanity, but the degree of immediate following was not missed. (This is an event that I have often considered and note that it is also mentioned in “The Thread of Gold.”)

Two or three years later, the first time Max R came through Dallas (no offense if you are reading this Max), my Dad commented that he knew my Dad’s name. There is nothing evil or unspiritual in finding out someone’s name, but it seemed odd to both my Dad and to me. Then came the ouster of Max and the beginning of the lawsuits. I followed the discussions with interest, but something always nagged at me about the whole business.

Also during this time, I had a couple of run-ins with Gene D. (I was never sure if he was actually and elder in Dallas, but I know he was afterwards in a couple of other cities, so I feel comfortable in mentioning the name at least in part.) At least one of them was essentially a random rant about nothing of value. It moved him down my respect scale. I later learned that he had done even worse to my Dad. (I’ve since learned that two other elders who were present were quite taken back by the incident, but were under a fog that made them incapable of doing anything at the time. There has been an apology made by one of them which I was glad to accept.)

Then came Irving. This was the first time that I had the sense that where you were in terms of locality was somewhat at the “brothers’” discretion and not really yours. Nothing was ever said, but I got the sense that it was an accepted fact. I lived fairly East in Dallas, beyond the meeting hall but had changed jobs to a place in Irving, on the West side of the county, some 26 miles either through downtown or around the primary loop. With traffic, it was seldom less than a 45 min drive and was often much longer. (I know some will say “poor baby, 45 minutes” but when there was a church in Irving, there seemed to be no reason to put up with it.) I drove it for one month and put the house on the market and moved to Irving. We went from well-known nobodies to unknown and almost unnoticed nobodies.

At this point, we were among a group of people that we mostly only knew a little from regional conferences (remember when they were regional and not just national or international?). I began to note that there were people that I knew were there but I seldom saw. Ben M, even Ray G. and many others. They were all busy proofing, typesetting, printing and binding for the LSM. Then one day I realized that I had not seen Ben for some time. There began to be whispers, but it was essentially that he had merely left.

I will preface this by saying that we had once spent a weekend in Houston to work on the presses there, so moving to Irving with the possibility of doing more was promising. I reached out to help with the publishing by proofreading a chapter in one of the books on which they were working. When I turned my work back in, I learned from the person in charge of that effort that I had made several grammatical errors according to the style handbook they were using. I later discovered that they were specifically using older rules of grammar and punctuation that had been out of vogue even in the versions used by university and professional publications for years. The smugness and certainty of this brother may not have risen to the level of an offense, but it really did bother me. After that, I decided that the printing was not for me.

We spent 4-1/2 years in the Church in Irving but I have few significant memories of meetings at the hall. I realize that part of this time we even had Sunday morning meetings in homes, but that was only the last few months or so.

I do recall a Saturday morning breakfast at Benson’s house with a large group of brothers. As it was ending and everyone was beginning to mill around and prepare to leave, I ended up near Benson. We exchanged a few words, and then he said something that remained in my mind for years, even after leaving the LC. He said something like “We’ve built really good fences, but the sheep are dying.” I don’t think I had necessarily identified something dying in me, but in hindsight, it was really true.

I also remember the last “sermon” series that Benson gave during our time there. It was in the early stages of the new door knocking move. While everyone was encouraged to get involved, Benson’s messages were on the going on of the soldiers and the citizens. While never clearly stated, it seemed obvious that the soldiers were the ones going door to door or doing other “ministry” work while the citizens were the ones that did not, but were providing the support (prayer, money, toilet cleaning, etc.) for the soldiers. The emphasis seemed to be that no one should feel that they were a second-class member of the body of Christ. But the reality was that all of the energies were put to the publishing and to the door knocking. It was hard to consider yourself anything but a second-class citizen if you weren’t deep into whatever the “flow” was at the time. It had always been that way to some degree. Now it was even worse. (It is possible that the peculiarities of a city with a conference center and printing presses made it more extreme.)

By this time, my wife and I needed real friends, not just a bunch of “amen” friends. We needed real mentoring and shepherding. It was not to be found. You weren’t supposed to know anyone “in the flesh” so your personal problems were not welcome discussion. You were expected to call on the Lord more and go to more meetings. That would fix everything. If we had continued there, it would have fixed the date for the end of our marriage. It was not yet looming, but the early warnings signs were there.

One day, my wife said “we should go try out Irving Bible Church.” It was less than a mile away. While Lee always slammed seminaries, he generally spoke somewhat highly of Dallas Theological Seminary and we knew that Bible Church ministers in our area tended to be DTS graduates. We talked back and forth about it over a couple of weeks, then just did it. Roughly August of 87, we left the LC, never to return, and went to IBC.

IBC was in the midst of a transition. It had no preacher. We still were impressed by the leadership. About two months later they brought in a preacher who was (is) about 9 months younger than me. He was not quite 32. We are still growing together.

The LC distress signals with their imbedded messages are still being searched out and destroyed. I found one just a few months ago. But the marriage has healed. We’ve had real fellowship with real people rather than pseudo-spiritual fellowship with ministry clones. I do not mean to insult any of the people in the LC with that statement. I was one of them too. It was not about us as much as it was about the thing into which the “ministry” turned us.

The LC has remained the elephant in the room when I visit my parents, or my brother or sister and their families. We did finally discuss it a little in the spring of 2006, but it got pushed aside for a while. I recall my sister recently saying something like “surely you believe that Bro Lee was right about [I don’t remember what now].” My response was essentially “No, I don’t.” They have essentially thought that it was practices and not teaching that caused us to leave and stay away. The practices were probably the thing that drove us away, but it was the eyes opening to the teachings that kept us away.

I notice that there is never any will to defend the “ministry” other than in “broad-brush” terms. (This seems to be true on both the BARM forum and in the personal discussion I have had recently on a couple of issues.) When I was going through my recent “aha” about one of Lee’s teachings, I pointed to the particular scriptures for my sister to read through, telling here what I had noticed. I never heard back. But they will talk over and over about some general wonderfulness of the “church-life.”

I’ve only been to one LC meeting since mid-87. Unfortunately it was my Mother’s funeral. The service was acceptable, but it was clear to me, and even somewhat clear to my sister and Dad (and probably my brother) that these people that she had been among for almost 35 years did not really know her. Even some of the almost exclusively “focus on the church-life” testimonies sounded like one of those mostly fictional movies that are loosely based on a real-life event. I probably wouldn’t have included this in my opening testimony except that this was only a little over 5 months ago and still fresh in my thoughts.

I’m seldom the one to see deep things in a truly original way. But I will go over what anyone tries to feed me. I’m a bit of a “shade-tree” student of logic and reasoning and will gladly take what passes muster, but shred hollow logical fallacies passed off as truth. I also have a tendency to bring out a certain level of sarcasm that sometimes comes off not exactly as intended. I recall in the first few weeks in the LC we were having dinner with another family and I made a reference to “our atheist friend in Austin.” The sister looked at me with really big eyes until she realized I was simply making a snide remark about Madeline Murray O’Hare.

For those that frequent the BARM, I am “Mike H” there. I’m not sure why I decided on a different pseudonym here, but I did. After I had set it up and it was accepted, I realized that it might be thought to mean Obi-Wan. (If I ever seem to get a light saber out, let me know and I will deal with it.) That was not my intention. Simply “older but wiser.” As I write this, I’m reminded of a line from “The Music Man.” The line was about the “older but wiser girl” — a bit odd for a guy, but the thought is accurate.

If I ever bring up a line from a song or movie that you don’t get, just ask. I tend to note where others have seen what I am seeing and put it into song or movie script. It may not be spiritual, but truth is still truth.

I’m a bit sirprised that the system has allowed this much at one time. While I don't typically write this much at once, I'm not known for one-line posts.

Posting Rules
You may post new threads You may post replies You may not post attachments You may not edit your posts BB code is On Smilies are On [IMG] code is On HTML code is Off Forum Rules