Originally Posted by Trapped

I can understand having that mindset, because the "step down" can certainly be an adjustment, as well as a bit of a personal earth-shatterer if it comes out of the blue.

Because even if they do somehow manage to walk through the doors of a "denomination" or "so-called church" one Sunday, or a few Sundays in a row, they still have to contend with the ingrained judgmental attitude that can be hard to beat.

"Oh, their music is contemporary"
"Oh, they just have one man speaking"
"That graphic on the screen feels like leaven"
"They didn't mention God's economy even once"
"That pastor seems to be drumming up emotion rather than the reality of Christ as life"

And on and on and on, and it makes it almost impossible to just sit there and take it in.

But honestly, once you do "step down", it's such a relief. You can just be a failure of a human being, washed in the blood, much more real and authentic with those around you who are also in just one of many churches, and not in the be-all, end-all place.

Because it's exhausting "having all the riches" when your life doesn't bear it out.

Originally Posted by Trapped

I can understand having that mindset, because the "step down" can certainly be an adjustment, as well as a bit of a personal earth-shatterer if it comes out of the blue.

Because even if they do somehow manage to walk through the doors of a "denomination" or "so-called church" one Sunday, or a few Sundays in a row, they still have to contend with the ingrained judgmental attitude that can be hard to beat.

"Oh, their music is contemporary"
"Oh, they just have one man speaking"
"That graphic on the screen feels like leaven"
"They didn't mention God's economy even once"
"That pastor seems to be drumming up emotion rather than the reality of Christ as life"

And on and on and on, and it makes it almost impossible to just sit there and take it in.

But honestly, once you do "step down", it's such a relief. You can just be a failure of a human being, washed in the blood, much more real and authentic with those around you who are also in just one of many churches, and not in the be-all, end-all place.

Because it's exhausting "having all the riches" when your life doesn't bear it out.

Originally Posted by Terry

They've been conditioned for years of not being able to go anywhere else.
There's no trying. Being told for years, "we have all the riches". Results in pride. Being told "here in the local churches we're unique". That too results in pride.
Ever see the movie Goodfellas? Last scene of the movie reminds me of the LCM. Here you have Henry Hill in the witness protection program reduced to being just another schmuck. The distinction and the uniqueness is no more.
Just like the LC. Some don't want to go anywhere else. Not wanting to meet as just another church when believing "we had all the riches" and "we were God's move on the earth".

Originally Posted by Trapped

Yes, it's just what they do.

And then you get the sheepish, "because where else is there to go? we can't go anywhere else."

Originally Posted by Trapped

I was in a meeting in the last couple years where the fellowship was about, what else, life.

I can't recall the details of the meeting, but in the sharing time afterward a brother stood up and balled his hands up into fists while punching the air (is there a better phrase to describe that action we all know?), saying desperately, "I just need life! Oh, I just want life! I have been so dry and down and am so desperate for life!"

Originally Posted by Trapped

I was in a meeting in the last couple years where the fellowship was about, what else, life.

I can't recall the details of the meeting, but in the sharing time afterward a brother stood up and balled his hands up into fists while punching the air (is there a better phrase to describe that action we all know?), saying desperately, "I just need life! Oh, I just want life! I have been so dry and down and am so desperate for life!"

I just sat there watching him, thinking, "what else have you all been talking about for the past countless decades? how is it you are desperate for what you all should be swimming in by now?"

What I'm trying to describe is what feels like an atmosphere of always pining for something that is never quite obtained. And how can it be obtained? They are told "if you think you have obtained, you haven't. And if you don't think you've obtained, you have!" That leaves you always pining. There's no joy in that.

Originally Posted by Terry

Handful of times I've visited a LC meeting in the last ten years, that is correct. Little joy. My perspective it's a time for a social outlet (before, during, and after the meeting). For some it's become a form of religion. As in "this is what we do."

Originally Posted by Kyle Yoakum

I have been out of the LC for many years. Once in a while I see LSM Youtube videos where everyone lo so happy. Are you saying many of the meetings, conferences are boring, with little to no vitality? Little joy?

Originally Posted by Kyle Yoakum

I have been out of the LC for many years. Once in a while I see LSM Youtube videos where everyone lo so happy. Are you saying many of the meetings, conferences are boring, with little to no vitality? Little joy?

Originally Posted by Freedom

I think for me, the meetings felt boring a lot of the time. I remember when the elders would get the sense that someone or multiple people weren't enjoying the meeting, that's when they would start making everyone stand up and call on the Lord three times. Sometimes they would even single someone out and make them do it by themselves.

I could never understand what made them think that getting people to do that would resolve the boredom, lack of interest or whatever other underlying problem there was.

Originally Posted by Terry

Yes, it's my experience. Everyone is so positive and so okay, why don't I feel it? I must be the only one who has a problem.
Having to speak one way for the meetings, but never to speak what is on my mind or what interests me. To truly speak my mind would have resulted being escorted out of the meeting hall. That is what fear of man does.

Originally Posted by Trapped

For bullet #2, feigning being positive for the ministry but this is the only Christian life they know.....part of what comes with that is disillusionment, deflation, dissatisfaction, depression. It's a totally defeated mind and soul. It's "what am I doing wrong?" It's "why aren't I happy?" It's "why does everyone else act okay? Am I the problem? Does God not care about me?" It's a feeling of being totally trapped, knowing that what you are being fed isn't cutting it, but being literally afraid and unable to try anything else.

It creates a life of desperation for that person.

I am so ready for something to change in the LC.

Originally Posted by Terry

It's really sad, but that's how it was and I believe still is.
Ones raised in the local churches are either:

• positive for the ministry
• feign being positive for the ministry but this is the only Christian life they know
• Allow their experiences in the local churches to affect their faith, lose faith and become unbelieving out of the thought local churches represent what it is to be a Christian (which it is not).
• Those who have see past the pretention and seek to meet with Christians outside the local churches.

Originally Posted by Freedom

By contrast, those who grew up in the LC never knew anything different, so it would be impossible to make that kind of determination without having visited other groups. Most of us just learned to take other people's word for it.

Originally Posted by Terry

I have been told that too. Also in there is the practice of "everyone speaking". My response is if you become part of a home meeting group, there is plenty opportunity for everyone to speak.

Originally Posted by Freedom

That is a very good point. I can't even count how many times I heard people in the LC say things like that. I didn't always realize it, but by the time there is that kind of talk happening, the disillusionment has probably been there for awhile.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Originally Posted by Freedom

The thing that was always so striking to me was that there were clear cases of disillusionment that I saw among long time members. Most of the time these members would try to find ways to rationalize or attempt to minimize the extent of the disillusionment.

Originally Posted by Freedom

Personally, I wonder if LC members even really believe what they are being told. I suspect that in regards to some of these issues, they know that leaders are sidestepping the issue, but they don't want to raise any fuss about it by questioning that.

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

WL made such a big deal about the church not having a name; the church is simply “the” church which meets in the various cities. Yet he had no problem putting a name on “ the” ministry which we don’t find in the scriptures. So his ministry morphed into the ministry, the only legitimate ministry for the age.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I left after nearly 8 yrs in the LC. I was saved there and enjoyed the fellowship with the saints. But the exclusiveness of the LC caused me to be a minion,and I think it's time to say goodbye, for a greater good. Looking back I was living in a delusion. I was a proud Christian because we were taught we are the recovery, commissioned by the Lord, unlike rest of the group. When I met with Christians who aren't from the LC, I don't expect to have any fellowship with them, because they are a 'denomination'. I never read books from the leaders of Christianity, I only read material given by LSM, although many times I found the Life Study by Lee isn't helpful. When I say the church and the ministry, I never had a feeling of including all other churches which aren't of the LC, or I say the ministry I can only thought of LSM. That's the effect of the brainwashing that has been done to my head. Basically I'm locked in a tiny, restricted area.

When I read the church history from the non LSM perspective I'm so happy to quit. Because being in the LC is like living in North Korea, it's a system of error, it just should not be that way, it doesn't make sense, it feels like the Mormon system or JW system, it is controlling, hiding history, telling the lies, a division and a delusion. Sad when I try to talk to some of them their brain can't even reason properly. They say lee isn't all perfect but can't admit LSM make mistake. They can't accept and appreciate the good work done by other Christian group, seemingly only LSM is worth praising. Even worse, they're not open to alternate interpretations, they won't read books that aren't from LSM. The fact is those books by LSM don't make many sales on amazon, yet they think those are the best books on earth that worth reading.

Now I enjoy reading books by many different authors now, and learn how to interpret the bible, look at references and commentary by different authors. I no longer subscribe to the one ministry idea, the idea itself is stupid and cultish.

Originally Posted by Terry

That's my experience.
"I don't want to talk about it." or "God sees no iniquity in Israel" are some of the responses you might hear.
To talk about LSM's mistakes is likened to "uncovering or Noah".
It's just very narrow minded approach to have to shut down any logic or reason. That's been tossed out long ago.

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

That's an interesting interpretation regarding TAS & WL . . . never heard it stated like that before. And do you mean Lee violated the OCOC because he violated their autonomy via central control?

Originally Posted by Ohio

Actually Lee never really practiced the one church one city (OCOC) doctrine. There are endless stories about him and his minions violating OCOC teachings with their divisive practices. Lee only used this OCOC doctrine on TASparks in order to create a wedge between them, and have a weapon to condemn TAS.

This was never so evident to me as when Lee's Blendeds came into the Midwest, dividing all the true LC's, who had long stood on the "local ground" of oneness, and filed lawsuits against them to steal their meeting halls.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Sad when I try to talk to some of them their brain can't even reason properly. They say lee isn't all perfect but can't admit LSM make mistake. They can't accept and appreciate the good work done by other Christian group, seemingly only LSM is worth praising. Even worse, they're not open to alternate interpretations, they won't read books that aren't from LSM. The fact is those books by LSM don't make many sales on amazon, yet they think those are the best books on earth that worth reading.

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

Yeah, Books of T. Austin Sparks are very rich in divine revealation but he was despised by Lee because of ground of oneness controversies. Lee insisted to pratice his one church per city. When Sparks seeked to correct Lee, it was Lee who turned his back from Sparks and despised him since then.

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Great observation! T. Austin Sparks certainly pointed out shortcomings in Christendom, but I never get the sense from him that he's setting himself up as something superior. (and BTW - Sparks certainly had books published during that time, which is certainly not lightweight stuff!)

What a prideful trap we all fell in back then . . . hard to believe it now! I remember the elation and freedom I felt when the Lord directed me to some books by John Piper. I was so happy in spirit that someone else outside the LC could write things about being seriously in love with God and about how we were meant to be enjoying Him daily! I had been in a really deep despair because I knew I didn't want to return to the LC, but I thought there was nothing else out there of genuine spiritual value. God led me through that despair to find Piper's "Desiring God." Through that book I was led into fellowship with some ex-LCers nearby.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I left after nearly 8 yrs in the LC. I was saved there and enjoyed the fellowship with the saints. But the exclusiveness of the LC caused me to be a minion,and I think it's time to say goodbye, for a greater good. Looking back I was living in a delusion. I was a proud Christian because we were taught we are the recovery, commissioned by the Lord, unlike rest of the group. When I met with Christians who aren't from the LC, I don't expect to have any fellowship with them, because they are a 'denomination'. I never read books from the leaders of Christianity, I only read material given by LSM, although many times I found the Life Study by Lee isn't helpful. When I say the church and the ministry, I never had a feeling of including all other churches which aren't of the LC, or I say the ministry I can only thought of LSM. That's the effect of the brainwashing that has been done to my head. Basically I'm locked in a tiny, restricted area.

When I read the church history from the non LSM perspective I'm so happy to quit. Because being in the LC is like living in North Korea, it's a system of error, it just should not be that way, it doesn't make sense, it feels like the Mormon system or JW system, it is controlling, hiding history, telling the lies, a division and a delusion. Sad when I try to talk to some of them their brain can't even reason properly. They say lee isn't all perfect but can't admit LSM make mistake. They can't accept and appreciate the good work done by other Christian group, seemingly only LSM is worth praising. Even worse, they're not open to alternate interpretations, they won't read books that aren't from LSM. The fact is those books by LSM don't make many sales on amazon, yet they think those are the best books on earth that worth reading.

Now I enjoy reading books by many different authors now, and learn how to interpret the bible, look at references and commentary by different authors. I no longer subscribe to the one ministry idea, the idea itself is stupid and cultish.

Originally Posted by Freedom

No doubt, Nee and Lee did correctly identify some of the shortcomings in various groups. That probably would have been fine if it had stopped there. Instead they sought to use that as a means to position the LC as something superior. Not only that, but it seems that at some point, a notion developed that there is some singular path that can be traced throughout church history, with the brethren as the immediate "successor" to the LC. Everything that happened outside of the LC after that point in time was completely irrelevant as far as the LC was concerned.

Lee even went on to make statements like "From 1945 to 1984, I found out that in both the English-speaking world and the Chinese-speaking world, there was not a weighty spiritual book published." Upon what basis could he even make such a claim? He could only do that because people in the LC were conditioned to believe exactly what they were told. It's ironic how things all started out with a seemingly fair assessment of church history and then became just another form of information control.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

When I read the church history from the non LSM perspective I'm so happy to quit. Because being in the LC is like living in North Korea, it's a system of error, it just should not be that way, it doesn't make sense, it feels like the Mormon system or JW system, it is controlling, hiding history, telling the lies, a division and a delusion. Sad when I try to talk to some of them their brain can't even reason properly. They say lee isn't all perfect but can't admit LSM make mistake. They can't accept and appreciate the good work done by other Christian group, seemingly only LSM is worth praising. Even worse, they're not open to alternate interpretations, they won't read books that aren't from LSM. The fact is those books by LSM don't make many sales on amazon, yet they think those are the best books on earth that worth reading.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

They say lee isn't all perfect but can't admit LSM make mistake.