Originally Posted by Nell

I'm not saying your statement is wrong, but I just don't think it's the best. I think the best lesson is to learn the scriptures. Learn obedience. Learn that God is clean, righteous and holy. To look at others for a standard for living, we will always fall short...because THEY will always fall short.

We should be looking away to Jesus. Of course, this is a pretty lofty standard, but it's HUGE! We get to know Him in the areas of our lives where obedience is doable. If the Lord tells you to do something...do it! If He tells you not to do something...don't do it!

If He tells you to SLOW DOWN, take your foot off the gas. If He tells you to STOP TALKING, stop talking. Maybe you all do this anyway. I just think we miss the point sometimes.

Nell

Originally Posted by Ohio

The answer is that we trusted our leaders, we submitted to them as the scripture has instructed us. It was they who betrayed our trust. It was often self-serving motives in local leaders which caused them not to stand up for righteousness, and instead bow down and stick their head in the sand.

How can we be accountable for what we did not know? We as young believers are not responsible for being deceived by Christian ministers any more than a child is responsible for being abused. As long as LSM was in complete control of all information, they had a semblance of prosperity. Today, with information so readily available, LSM has had to court folks like Hank HandyGraft of CRI to maintain their credibility as Christians.

Originally Posted by Ohio

The answer is that we trusted our leaders, we submitted to them as the scripture has instructed us. It was they who betrayed our trust. It was often self-serving motives in local leaders which caused them not to stand up for righteousness, and instead bow down and stick their head in the sand.

How can we be accountable for what we did not know? We as young believers are not responsible for being deceived by Christian ministers any more than a child is responsible for being abused. As long as LSM was in complete control of all information, they had a semblance of prosperity. Today, with information so readily available, LSM has had to court folks like Hank HandyGraft of CRI to maintain their credibility as Christians.

Originally Posted by OBW

The problem is that they never just said "don't say anything negative." It was always surrounded by verses that were claimed to be guiding principles on the subject (or manipulated into sounding like it), along with one or more of Lee's stories that were supposed to prove that the principle he claims was true.

Originally Posted by OBW

How often did we fail to realize that it was the story told that really made the point and not the scripture? In fact, the scripture too often did not get us there. If it weren't for the story, we might never have bought it. So we dismissed the lack of support in the scripture and instead let some tailor-made story convince us of what the scripture could not.

Originally Posted by OBW

Yeah, we were cooked. "That one's well done. Put him on the plate. That's the way the MOTA likes em."

Originally Posted by Nell

There was a lot of stuff. I'm thinking more about the blatant stuff like this:
"Don't say anything negative." What are they really saying? "Shut up and don't ask questions." The opposite of Acts 17:11.

Originally Posted by Nell

OK. Point taken.

How can you allow yourself to be deceived? If you "allow" it, you're not deceived.

Jesus is God. He was not deceived by Judas. He was betrayed. I'm not sure what you're saying.

Nell

Originally Posted by Ohio

I'm not saying that your statement is wrong, but where did I or those around me NOT learn obedience? It was the Lord who led me to the church in Cleveland as an answer to prayer. I never idolized anyone, but did look to others, older brothers especially, as examples of the faith, as patterns to learn from. Was this not scriptural?

Sorry Nell, but you like to provide a corrective tone, which is not always applicable to others. We should never forget that real failures are part of our walk by faith, as is readily observed in the scriptures. One type of failure is allowing yourself to be deceived for a time by others. I seem to remember that even our Lord Jesus was deceived by Judas. Perhaps our Heavenly Father has provided a special grace to those who taste the same betrayal on earth as His Son did, which otherwise we would have never known.

Originally Posted by OBW

Nell,

I think this is a really good way to put it.

But I think that even when we thought we were fact checking, I am now convinced that there was often a fog over our minds. Even when we were not yet fully "insiders." It goes like this . . . .

Originally Posted by OBW

... you are going to be presented with a whole lot of verses. And a some of them were not necessarily really on the topic. They were there to underpin that there are verses for everything that is said.

Originally Posted by OBW

By the time that they get to the thing that we should have fact-checked, even if we recognized it as the important one, we were somewhat stoked with correct verse-teaching synchronization of all the previous ones such that it was often easy to miss how it was not really in sync on that one. And once you get through that message and out the door, you are at least partly on board.

Originally Posted by OBW

... we may not have been totally cooked for some time, but the nonsense was always coming. And we still missed it.

Originally Posted by Nell

I'm not saying your statement is wrong, but I just don't think it's the best. I think the best lesson is to learn the scriptures. Learn obedience. Learn that God is clean, righteous and holy. To look at others for a standard for living, we will always fall short...because THEY will always fall short.

We should be looking away to Jesus. Of course, this is a pretty lofty standard, but it's HUGE! We get to know Him in the areas of our lives where obedience is doable. If the Lord tells you to do something...do it! If He tells you not to do something...don't do it!

Originally Posted by Nell

Early on, in the 1970's I remember the Lord's blessing on the sharing of the word. It was so powerful that I came to believe that "this is IT". That's when I became the "frog in a pot". The water started to heat so slowly that I didn't notice. That is, more and more questionable teachings and questionable behavior came into play. I turned a blind eye because of the early (what I believed to be) outpouring of the Spirit. Pretty soon, the water was boiling.

Originally Posted by Igzy

...But the best lesson is to learn to differentiate the values from the hero, and never take celebrity too far.

Originally Posted by Ohio

One day I learned that Lee was lying to us about the so-called conspiracies against him. He wrongfully destroyed John Ingalls et.al. calling them rebellious lepers. Learning this news about what really has happened in LC history is so toxic in nature that in the Recovery they called it being "poisoned." Once one learns this news, he can immediately change from an admirer to a depreciator. Overnight. I know, it happened to me.

Originally Posted by Ohio

The answer is that we trusted our leaders, we submitted to them as the scripture has instructed us. It was they who betrayed our trust. It was often self-serving motives in local leaders which caused them not to stand up for righteousness, and instead bow down and stick their head in the sand.

How can we be accountable for what we did not know? We as young believers are not responsible for being deceived by Christian ministers any more than a child is responsible for being abused. As long as LSM was in complete control of all information, they had a semblance of prosperity. Today, with information so readily available, LSM has had to court folks like Hank HandyGraft of CRI to maintain their credibility as Christians.

Originally Posted by zeek

To me the issue you raise is not about Lee's character flaws. Of course, Lee may have scored somewhere in the sociopathic spectrum. But the issue is why we, the so-called saints, gave him so much power. There would certainly be something of value to be learned by elucidating that process in print, so that they who read it don't repeat it.

Originally Posted by zeek

To me the issue you raise is not about Lee's character flaws. Of course, Lee may have scored somewhere in the sociopathic spectrum. But the issue is why we, the so-called saints, gave him so much power. There would certainly be something of value to be learned by elucidating that process in print, so that they who read it don't repeat it.

Originally Posted by Ohio

I happened to hear Mike & Mike this morning talk about recent Alex Rodriguez sports news and Lance Armstrong was mentioned in the mix. My background with the history of Witness Lee immediately filled my thoughts. In fact, it was this very similar connection in their behaviors which so upset me, causing me to lose so much respect for a brother and minister whom I once loved so dearly.

Let me explain the connection using Lance Armstrong, whom I used to be a fan of. Lance, of course, had his detractors, claiming that he cheated by doping, but often other athletes have their egos and jealousies to contend with. But Lance was also a great guy who did many wonderful things for his foundations. He was also a cancer survivor, which also painted a heart-warming backdrop for his successes. He visited hospitals to encourage other victims of cancer. He was an all around great guy, he was arguably the best in his sport, he was the BOTA, the Biker of the Age. And he was an American in a mostly French sport, at a time when "french fries" became "freedom fries."

Here's the problem. Lance was also a great liar. He was the best at self-promotion. He was willing to throw any and all detractors under the bus to preserve his own legacy. He was litigious, and those who spoke up as whistle blowers were taken to court to silence them. Lance was so believable he won every court case. He maintained a stellar reputation, with a lengthy trail of damaged reputations in his wake. To uphold his many laurels, we were basically forced to believe "only Lance is true, and every man a liar."

To his credit, one day Lance came clean, and admitted what he had done. Lee, however, never did nor ever would. Lee also was litigious towards every detractor. He destroyed the reputations of notable men of God in the Recovery whose only "crime" was to speak their conscience against Lee and his abuses. In order to maintain his "god-man" status as the acting God, the Deputy Authority, the Minister of the Age, etc. we basically were forced to believe that "only Lee is true, and every man a liar."

One day I learned that Lee was lying to us about the so-called conspiracies against him. He wrongfully destroyed John Ingalls et.al. calling them rebellious lepers. Learning this news about what really has happened in LC history is so toxic in nature that in the Recovery they called it being "poisoned." Once one learns this news, he can immediately change from an admirer to a depreciator. Overnight. I know, it happened to me.

Lee cared only for his own self-preservation, and that of his family and ministry business. On the morning sports show, A-rod was likened to a sociopath. I'm thinking it applies to also to the way Lee acted when caught. What has upset me was not that Lee and Lance were merely deceivers and liars, but that they were both willing to destroy others who spoke the truth.