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05-06-2020 07:56 AM
aron
Re: Open - Interactive Letter to The Co-Workers in The Lord's Recovery

Quote:
Originally Posted by UntoHim View Post
I ask you again, where in the New Testament are there any prescriptive, or even descriptive, passages that show us that there would be such a continuation of the apostleship on the order of the original Scripture-writing apostles?
One the one hand there's "the Lord gave apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers" from Paul in Ephesians 4, which seems to indicate an 'office' or 'role' that must be filled by an actual, living breathing human being. Apostolic wanna-be's have clung to this verse as their raison d'etre for decades, generations even.

However, Paul also says that he is "apostle to the gentiles" even as Peter is "apostle to the circumcision". Until we colonize Mars or Saturn, and find ungospelised inhabitants, the need for apostles as Paul and Peter were, to the gentile and Jew, is over.

The Lord picked twelve, the twelve gave the right hand of fellowship to Paul. Notice that the eleven drew lots when Judas departed, to replace his office ("let his office be taken by another") but when James died by the sword they didn't. Because the office was already taken. The quota was filled.

Also of note for all would-be MOTAs or MOTA-trumpeters... if you want to be great, be the least. Don't declare yourself MOTA, or hint to your followers that you just might be The Man. Jesus was that person, and God raised him from the dead, furnishing proof to all. Any others who presume such pride of place before the Bema, are being self-deceived, and in turn deceiving others.
05-05-2020 08:41 PM
Trapped
Re: Open - Interactive Letter to The Co-Workers in The Lord's Recovery

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raptor View Post
I saw a video on YouTube (canīt find it) about a year ago or so where WL spoke to FTTA trainees. The first part of the video was actually quite good, describing how to go to the word and how to look to the Lord to get light and His shining on the word.

But then around mid-way or so, he changed topics to the matter of how God used one minister in every age to accomplish His move for that age. And he kept talking about it and giving examples, like Noah, etc. Of course he never said I am the MOTA now, but he just put all the pieces there so that you would inevitably come up with that conclusion yourself.

Wish I could find the video.
That's essentially what's going on in The Vision of the Age book too. Lee traces through the "ministers of the age" and then at a certain point says something like "I'm not tooting my own horn here, but....."

And then he paints a nice little portrait of himself as the minister of the age without explicitly stating it.

There are leading brothers who take the stance that Witness Lee was so pure and humble, and it's the blended brothers who have exalted him too far. That one book alone flies in the face of that stance. WL exalted HIMSELF too far.
04-13-2020 03:46 PM
Raptor
Re: Open - Interactive Letter to The Co-Workers in The Lord's Recovery

I saw a video on YouTube (canīt find it) about a year ago or so where WL spoke to FTTA trainees. The first part of the video was actually quite good, describing how to go to the word and how to look to the Lord to get light and His shining on the word.

But then around mid-way or so, he changed topics to the matter of how God used one minister in every age to accomplish His move for that age. And he kept talking about it and giving examples, like Noah, etc. Of course he never said I am the MOTA now, but he just put all the pieces there so that you would inevitably come up with that conclusion yourself.

Wish I could find the video.
04-10-2020 07:25 AM
UntoHim
Re: Open - Interactive Letter to The Co-Workers in The Lord's Recovery

"In the New Testament, among God’s people there is no unique, definite, official, or permanent leadership; such a leadership would be an insult to the unique headship of Christ"
Practicing the Church Life under the Unique Headship of Christ - 2010 ITERO Outline
"The Lord's Recovery does not have an official, permanent, organizational, or positional leader. The only leader in the Lord's recovery is Christ."
Witness Lee - Crucial Principles for the Christian Life and the Church Life

Many of us who sat at the feet of Witness Lee for decades can testify that we never heard him declare himself to be an apostle. In fact, on more than one occasion he publicly taught us to not refer to him as an apostle. Many of us knew you brothers who now refer to yourselves as "Co-Workers in the Lord's Recovery" long before you became co-workers or employees of the Living Stream Ministry, and none of you brothers ever referred to Witness Lee as and apostle while he was alive. So what you brothers are doing is declaring Witness Lee to be an apostle posthumously. This is not biblical. This is not even logical. Nor does this align or comport with what has been taught and practiced among evangelical, orthodox Christians over the past 2,000+ years. Please explain your unbiblical stance before the brothers and sisters in the Local Churches, and to the rest of the Christian public.
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04-02-2020 08:08 AM
UntoHim
Re: Open - Interactive Letter to The Co-Workers in The Lord's Recovery

You "Co-Workers in the Lord's Recovery" have held yourselves out to being some sort of representatives of "The Universal Government of God". Presumably, you brothers feel you have inherited this mantle of authority from Witness Lee. I ask you again, where in the New Testament are there any prescriptive, or even descriptive, passages that show us that there would be such a continuation of the apostleship on the order of the original Scripture-writing apostles? What man or men have shown the "The signs of a true apostle ...with signs and wonders and mighty works"? (2 Cor 12:12) Who has demonstrated such signs, wonders and mighty works to the Body of Christ in toto, and not just in the confines of a sect or movement in which the supposed "apostle" is exercising his irresistible will against a captive audience of fanatically loyal and decidedly myopic followers of his person and work?
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03-30-2020 10:20 AM
UntoHim
Re: Open - Interactive Letter to The Co-Workers in The Lord's Recovery

"In the New Testament, among God’s people there is no unique, definite, official, or permanent leadership; such a leadership would be an insult to the unique headship of Christ"
Practicing the Church Life under the Unique Headship of Christ - 2010 ITERO Outline
"The Lord's Recovery does not have an official, permanent, organizational, or positional leader. The only leader in the Lord's recovery is Christ."
Witness Lee - Crucial Principles for the Christian Life and the Church Life

Brothers,
Not long after Witness Lee's passing, a small group of brothers associated with the Living Stream Ministry, A California 501c(3) Corp owned by Lee, claimed to have been charged/authorized by Lee himself, shortly before his death, to take over the leadership of the LSM, and by extension, leadership and control of the Local Church movement.

No official document, signed by Witness Lee, expressing his desire that any man/men take over at the LSM, much less the Local Church movement, has ever been produced - only the specious claim that "notes of such a private meeting with Lee expressing his wishes" exist at LSM. After a few years, a small cadre of men unofficially proclaimed that they were "the Blended Brothers", and that all elders, co-workers and churches throughout "The Lord's Recovery" were to follow and submit to them. Any elder, co-worker or local church that was not fully cooperative was bad-mouthed and shunned at best, and in many cases were publicly and officially "quarantined", which for all rights and purposes is actually an insidious form of excommunication.

Recently, these same cadre of men, now enlarged and bolstered by a number of other men, all proteges promoted by the original group of Blended Brothers, have proclaimed themselves de facto apostles of the Local Churches/Lord's Recovery. While they do not use the actual term "apostles", they lay claim to have the authority to appoint, discipline and remove local church elders. They have also taken it upon themselves to exercise extra-local authority to minister to and set the direction of all Local Churches within the Lord's Recovery movement.

This "leadership" practiced by you brothers at the LSM sure seems to be "unique, definite, official, and permanent". Brothers, is there some overseer group or outside board (such is common with many para-church or non-profit entities) which is in place to protect from conflicts of interest, fraud and other forms of malfeasance? Brothers, this is 2020 America and not 1920 China - There are expectations, standards and guidelines that are to be followed, even by those who consider themselves "The Universal Government of God".

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03-27-2020 10:10 AM
UntoHim
Re: Open - Interactive Letter to The Co-Workers in The Lord's Recovery

Brothers,
Over the past couple of decades, since his passing, you brothers have ascribed to Witness Lee numerous apostolic titles, such as "The One Minister with the One Ministry for the Age", "Deputy Authority" and "Acting God". As you are well aware, none of these titles are found in the New Testament. Additionally, there is no biblical prophesy that God would raise up such a person(s) in post-canonical Christianity. As a matter of fact, church history has clearly demonstrated the dangers and damage that is wrought upon the church when such lofty titles of honor and authority are bestowed upon any man.

My dear brothers, the onus is on you to show that Witness Lee's claim that God only uses one man in any one "age" is biblical. The burden is on you to show how Witness Lee demonstrated that he was an apostle in the order of the apostle Paul, who was appointed directly by God as a gift to the Body of Christ. If you are going to hold up Witness Lee as such an apostle to the Body of Christ, it is your obligation to show that Lee clearly demonstrated the "signs and wonders and power" of apostleship, and not just to the sect/denomination/movement of the Local Church, but to the Body of Christ as a whole.
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03-25-2020 08:02 AM
UntoHim
The Lord's Recover Does Not Have Official, Permanent Leader?

"In the New Testament, among God’s people there is no unique, definite, official, or permanent leadership; such a leadership would be an insult to the unique headship of Christ"
Practicing the Church Life under the Unique Headship of Christ - 2010 ITERO Outline

"The Lord's Recovery does not have an official, permanent, organizational, or positional leader. The only leader in the Lord's recovery is Christ."
Witness Lee - Crucial Principles for the Christian Life and the Church Life

Brothers. Why do you continue to hold up Witness Lee as an apostle on the order of the apostle Paul? Witness Lee has been dead for almost 23 years now. Why do you brothers hold Lee up as the unique, definite, official and permanent leader? Please explain your actions and your standing to the brothers and sisters in the Local Churches, to former members, and to the rest of the Body of Christ.
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03-22-2020 04:47 PM
Nell
Re: Open - Interactive Letter to The Co-Workers in The Lord's Recovery

Quote:
Originally Posted by ABrotherinFaith View Post
It seems their response is beginning. In the first 3 minutes Minoru distances himself and this message from any "official" relation to the LC.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZF8...ature=youtu.be
I don’t think I’ve ever heard an acknowledgment that the rest of the world existed in any other context but “poor, degraded, Christianity.” I would be curious to know if they will open their coffers to help, even their own, financially as surely there is unemployment among those in the churches. In fact, this could be a litmus test to see if they truly have compassion on others.

Nell
03-22-2020 10:13 AM
ABrotherinFaith
Re: Open - Interactive Letter to The Co-Workers in The Lord's Recovery

It seems their response is beginning. In the first 3 minutes Minoru distances himself and this message from any "official" relation to the LC.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZF8...ature=youtu.be
03-22-2020 07:07 AM
UntoHim
Open - Interactive Letter to The Co-Workers in The Lord's Recovery

This thread will serve as an open, interactive letter of sorts. It is "interactive" because it is expected that the brothers of the Living Stream Ministry, AKA "The Co-Workers in the Lord's Recovery", AKA "The Blended Brothers", will finally interact and open an honest line of communication with current and former Local Church members.

***Responses and retorts by the Local Church brothers will be presented and prominently displayed, unabridged and unedited here on this thread.***


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Brothers, why do you now refer to Witness Lee as an apostle when he never referred to himself as an apostle? As a matter of fact, in a sworn deposition, under penalty of perjury, Witness Lee clearly denied that he considered himself as an apostle, and swore under oath that he asked his followers not to refer to himself as an apostle.

Many of us who sat at the feet of Witness Lee for decades can testify that we never heard him declare himself to be an apostle. In fact, on more than one occasion he publicly taught us to not refer to him as an apostle. Many of us knew you brothers who now refer to yourselves as "Co-Workers in the Lord's Recovery" long before you became co-workers or employees of the Living Stream Ministry, and none of you brothers ever referred to Witness Lee as and apostle while he was alive. So what you brothers are doing is declaring Witness Lee to be an apostle posthumously. This is not biblical. This is not even logical. Nor does this align or comport with what has been taught and practiced among evangelical, orthodox Christians over the past 2,000+ years. Please explain your unbiblical stance before the brothers and sisters in the Local Churches, and to the rest of the Christian public.

You brothers have opined that "some have misguidedly demanded a list of apostles in the Lord’s recovery". No one is demanding anything. What we are doing is requesting that you do what the apostles Paul, Peter, John and many others did - Clearly state that they were apostles by name. It is altogether biblical and reasonable that those who exercise, enforce and reinforce apostolic authority (by appointing, disciplining and removing elders and conducting extra-local ministering and direction) be known by name. Why do you brothers feel that you are excused from this biblical mandate?

In your Site Introduction you brothers state: "Those who sincerely seek answers to questions can find them through genuine fellowship." Well, my brothers, "genuine fellowship" is not a one-way street. Genuine fellowship is not a monologue. The questions and contentions that have been posed here are not "rumors" or so-called "questionings". In the Declaration of Independence, the authors stated that "a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation." If you brothers have a decent respect for the rest of the members of the Body of Christ you must come to the table of open fellowship and make the same kind of declarations as founding fathers of the Christian church.

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