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07-09-2019 05:52 PM
aron
Re: Definition of "The Lordīs Recovery"

I can't see how anyone could sit under W. Lee's excoriations of Christianity and not come away untraumatized. Imagine sitting there passively while your spiritual family is denigrated. I was there and it sucked. But I was sold out, wrecked, ruined. But finally I had enough and left. (And I knew those who came back because they didn't know where else to go. Like an abused wife returning home).

ZNP's experience may prove the exception not the rule. How many have called out EM publicly, to his face, over his craven actions with PL? Not many I daresay.
07-09-2019 01:54 PM
Cal
Re: Definition of "The Lordīs Recovery"

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
I was not required to bow my knees to any doctrine, or any teacher. I stated my belief in Jesus Christ as Lord and savior and I was baptized into the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
I love ZNP's attitude! God's in charge. I'm with him. If you don't like it that's your problem.

That's the antidote to the LR mentality. Let the chips fall where they may.
07-09-2019 01:26 PM
ZNPaaneah
Re: Definition of "The Lordīs Recovery"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo S View Post
ZNP, they didn't bow their knee to Baal. Those is the Lord's Recovery have no choice if they choose to stay. They have to bow their knee to Nee's vision. God's grace requires you at least resist evil...
I was not required to bow my knees to any doctrine, or any teacher. I stated my belief in Jesus Christ as Lord and savior and I was baptized into the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

That said, I equate bowing the knee to Baal with bowing the knee to money. There is quite a bit that has been brought out in numerous threads whether it is Daystar, Training, PL, Standing orders, LSM, etc. that suggests those taking the lead in the LC have in fact bowed the knee to money.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo S View Post
I hesitate going to scripture when trying to argue points concerning the Lord's Recovery because when I do, I feel it only validates the movement but if you want to go to scripture, look at 2 John 1:9-11.

"Anyone who runs ahead without remaining in the teaching of Christ does not have God. Whoever remains in His teaching has both the Father and the Son.

If anyone comes to you but does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your home or even greet him. Whoever greets such a person shares in his evil deeds. "

The Local Churches teach a false gospel and a false Christ. This isn't about warts, it's about cancer. Warts don't kill but cancer does and with teachings like "losing your soul-life" and "getting out of your mind" these are veiled attacks on a person's very identity and soul. They're types of carcinogens that are imbedded in Local Church doctrine so no matter who the leaders are or the locality you're a part of.. you can't escape them. If you stay long enough, eventually you will get sick.
You are painting with a very broad brush. The gospel I heard did not mention losing the soul life, I didn't learn about that until I read the book of Galatians. As for getting out of your mind I did not hear that until we were studying Rom. 8. If you are going to claim that every single teaching that you disagree with is a carcinogen then you have surely been well trained by WL. I do not assume that an erroneous understanding of a verse in the Bible is proof that you are not following the Lord. The NT says "if in anything you are otherwise minded the Spirit will show you that".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo S View Post
Whether one wants to admit it or not, I believe all ex-members that come out of the LC's come out traumatized. Some make no bones about their pain, while others are better at hiding it in denial. While it's necessary as a coping mechanism when facing trauma, denial long term starts to eat away at your soul and when it does you become that pain and it then begins to own you. It's why many of you, even though you physically left, you're still stuck in a Local Church bubble.
Well I believe that if we are to follow the Lord we must take up our cross. Can't imagine a more traumatizing experience than the cross of Christ. I am not in denial, try reading my testimonies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo S View Post
Unfortunately all the thought reform that's a result of false doctrine overshadows any remnants of Christianity that be apparent on the surface of the Lord's Recovery. At what point or how many lies does it take to uncover in their teachings to finally say to yourself that what you were a part of wasn't biblical Christianity at all?
All it takes is one word from the Lord. I left in 1998. I was there from 1978 to 1998. My 20 years were filled with experiences of the Lord beginning with His leading me to the group and ending with His leading me out.
07-09-2019 01:12 PM
Jo S
Re: Definition of "The Lordīs Recovery"

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
know ye not what the scripture saith of Elijah? how he pleadeth with God against Israel: 3*Lord, they have killed thy prophets, they have digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have left for myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to Baal. 5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6But if it is by grace, it is no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace.

The sins of WL, PL, and others does not nullify God’s grace.
ZNP, they didn't bow their knee to Baal. Those is the Lord's Recovery have no choice if they choose to stay. They have to bow their knee to Nee's vision. God's grace requires you at least resist evil...

I hesitate going to scripture when trying to argue points concerning the Lord's Recovery because when I do, I feel it only validates the movement but if you want to go to scripture, look at 2 John 1:9-11.

"Anyone who runs ahead without remaining in the teaching of Christ does not have God. Whoever remains in His teaching has both the Father and the Son.

If anyone comes to you but does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your home or even greet him. Whoever greets such a person shares in his evil deeds. "

The Local Churches teach a false gospel and a false Christ. This isn't about warts. Warts don't kill but cancer does and with teachings like "lose your soul-life" and "get out of your mind", these are veiled attacks on a person's very identity and soul. They're carcinogens that are imbedded in Local Church doctrine so no matter who the leaders are or the locality you're a part of.. you can't escape them. If you stay long enough, eventually you will get sick.

Whether one wants to admit it or not, I believe all ex-members that come out of the LC's come out traumatized. Some make no bones about their pain, while others are better at hiding it in denial. While it's necessary as a coping mechanism, denial long term starts to eat away at your soul and when it does you become that pain and it then begins to own you. It's why many of you, even though you physically left, you're still stuck in a Local Church bubble.

Unfortunately all the thought reform that's a result of false doctrine overshadows any remnants of Christianity that may be apparent on the surface of the Lord's Recovery. At what point or how many lies does it take to uncover in their teachings to finally say to yourself that what you were a part of wasn't biblical Christianity at all?
07-09-2019 07:50 AM
Sons to Glory!
Re: Definition of "The Lordīs Recovery"

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
The sins of WL, PL, and others does not nullify God’s grace.
Well put - along with all else you conveyed in that post!
07-09-2019 07:47 AM
Sons to Glory!
Re: Definition of "The Lordīs Recovery"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo S View Post
StG, I assume you're referring to my post. So I'll respond and leave with this;

I see others on the board struggling with the same question that Ohio posed; "How could something so good become so bad?".

Watchman Nee's vision that gave birth to this movement through the doctrine or ground of locality, in my view, wasn't based on God's truth.

If it's true that the sole identity of the Lord's Recovery was founded upon and rooted in a lie, how could this movement ever be considered to have been something good?

But if you maintain your position that the Lord's Recovery was good in the beginning, you would have to agree with Nee's vision. And since God doesn't lie or contradict His Word, in order for the LC's to have been a genuine move of the Holy Spirit, God too would have had to agree that all Christians need to gather in one location within every city under one minister. Yet what I see in God's revelation is Jesus Christ gathering his entire church into only one city, the New Jerusalem.

You just can't have it both ways.
Thanks for the response, Jo. I can certainly see how you think that! However, I also think it may be a false dilemma . . . This is because we all have warts, and God works through us-ins - people with warts. There is no perfect, without error move of God, because is it done through us! But glory to God, what is truly amazing is He still gets it done somehow!

In reading a bit about church history, it is filled with those clearly in error. But God starts small, with the imperfect ones. Think about the 12 disciples - why did He chose this rag-tag bunch to start His worldwide ministry through? God chooses the foolish, the low, the motley crew, to confound the thinking of the supposedly wise.
07-09-2019 07:44 AM
ZNPaaneah
Re: Definition of "The Lordīs Recovery"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo S View Post
StG, I assume you're referring to my post. So I'll respond and leave with this;

I see others on the board struggling with the same question that Ohio posed; "How could something so good become so bad?".

Watchman Nee's vision that gave birth to this movement through the doctrine or ground of locality, in my view, wasn't based on God's truth.

If it's true that the sole identity of the Lord's Recovery was founded upon and rooted in a lie, how could this movement ever be considered to have been something good?

But if you maintain your position that the Lord's Recovery was good in the beginning, you would have to agree with Nee's vision. And since God doesn't lie or contradict His Word, in order for the LC's to have been a genuine move of the Holy Spirit, God too would have had to agree that all Christians need to gather in one location within every city under one minister. Yet what I see in God's revelation is Jesus Christ gathering his entire church into only one city, the New Jerusalem.

You just can't have it both ways.
know ye not what the scripture saith of Elijah? how he pleadeth with God against Israel: 3*Lord, they have killed thy prophets, they have digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have left for myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to Baal. 5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6But if it is by grace, it is no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace.

The sins of WL, PL, and others does not nullify God’s grace.

7What then? That which Israel seeketh for, that he obtained not; but the election obtained it, and the rest were hardened: 8according as it is written, God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear, unto this very day. 9And David saith,
Let their table be made a snare, and a trap,
And a stumblingblock, and a recompense unto them:
10
Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see,
And bow thou down their back always.

You are saying that the Lord’s Recovery was built upon a faulty doctrine, I would say that the Lord’s Recovery was built upon the seeking after the true church. This is the path that all who arrive at the church in Philadelphia must take. As it says “you shall go no more out”. Just because the Local church’s table has been made a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a recompense, that does not mean it wasn’t part of God’s plan so that the elect could arrive at Philadelphia.

The lesson I have taken away from my time in the LC is to glory in the Lord Jesus. Yes they have stumbled, but God has no intent that they fall. They are born again children of God, Jesus is the savior. We stand by faith, don’t be high minded but fear. Their disobedience is based on elevating a man to the same level as Jesus. Peter made the same error on the mount of transfiguration. God has shut up all unto disobedience that He might have mercy on all.
07-08-2019 09:29 PM
Jo S
Re: Definition of "The Lordīs Recovery"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sons to Glory! View Post
When I read the originating post definition, my mind went to a similar place. I do believe that early on there was a real move of God with the LC.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
When I left the LC, and found this forum, a nagging question haunted me: "How could something so good become so bad?"

StG, I assume you're referring to my post. So I'll respond and leave with this;

I see others on the board struggling with the same question that Ohio posed; "How could something so good become so bad?".

Watchman Nee's vision that gave birth to this movement through the doctrine or ground of locality, in my view, wasn't based on God's truth.

If it's true that the sole identity of the Lord's Recovery was founded upon and rooted in a lie, how could this movement ever be considered to have been something good?

But if you maintain your position that the Lord's Recovery was good in the beginning, you would have to agree with Nee's vision. And since God doesn't lie or contradict His Word, in order for the LC's to have been a genuine move of the Holy Spirit, God too would have had to agree that all Christians need to gather in one location within every city under one minister. Yet what I see in God's revelation is Jesus Christ gathering his entire church into only one city, the New Jerusalem.

You just can't have it both ways.
07-08-2019 04:59 PM
Sons to Glory!
Re: Definition of "The Lordīs Recovery"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
The move of God, the so-called "Jesus People Movement" of the late 60's and early 70's, was definitely a real move of God's Spirit in the USA. It was never confined to the Recovery. It was far bigger than that. All Christians were affected in some way. And yes the Recovery benefited from God's move.

The greatest hoax ever inflicted upon the Recovery was that God's move was limited to them, and that God's move was due to Lee's ministry.
Yes, agreed!
07-08-2019 02:10 PM
Ohio
Re: Definition of "The Lordīs Recovery"

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
There's no doubt in my mind that the epithets we sat under - "Poor, poor Christianity... too poor!" - affected our ability to grapple with the darkness that followed. We sat there and passively watched Witness Lee burn our bridges of escape.

Years later, looking back, I can begin to sense the cleverness and the keeping power of his system. It's quite impressive, really. We heard serial logical contradictions and kept going. We allowed the Bible to be suborned and dismissed, and we kept on. We saw unrighteousness and we continued. Our consciences protested, and still we kept going. Amazing, really.

I trusted the elders over me, those who supposedly "watched over my soul, and will give an account." (Heb 13.17)
07-08-2019 02:06 PM
Ohio
Re: Definition of "The Lordīs Recovery"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sons to Glory! View Post
When I read the originating post definition, my mind went to a similar place. I do believe that early on there was a real move of God with the LC.
The move of God, the so-called "Jesus People Movement" of the late 60's and early 70's, was definitely a real move of God's Spirit in the USA. It was never confined to the Recovery. It was far bigger than that. All Christians were affected in some way. And yes the Recovery benefited from God's move.

The greatest hoax ever inflicted upon the Recovery was that God's move was limited to them, and that God's move was due to Lee's ministry.
07-08-2019 02:00 PM
aron
Re: Definition of "The Lordīs Recovery"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Cursing others was a huge contributor. How they need the book of James!
There's no doubt in my mind that the epithets we sat under - "Poor, poor Christianity... too poor!" - affected our ability to grapple with the darkness that followed. We sat there and passively watched Witness Lee burn our bridges of escape.

Years later, looking back, I can begin to sense the cleverness and the keeping power of his system. It's quite impressive, really. We heard serial logical contradictions and kept going. We allowed the Bible to be suborned and dismissed, and we kept on. We saw unrighteousness and we continued. Our consciences protested, and still we kept going. Amazing, really.
07-08-2019 11:29 AM
Sons to Glory!
Re: Definition of "The Lordīs Recovery"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
When I left the LC, and found this forum, a nagging question haunted me: "How could something so good become so bad?"
When I read the originating post definition, my mind went to a similar place. I do believe that early on there was a real move of God with the LC.

As I visit other groups, like this weekend, I am reminded that most still do not have any knowledge of various things those in the LC saw early on - these include: the work of the indwelling Christ; our human spirit that is subject to us (and indwelt by Him); and a seeing of the whole clergy/laity for what it is and the immense benefit of practicing open meetings.
07-08-2019 06:42 AM
Ohio
Re: Definition of "The Lordīs Recovery"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raptor View Post
The Recovery is a religious organization centered around the person and teachings of Witness Lee composed of a mixture of scriptural and enlightening teachings and practices about the christian faith, the purpose of human life and the overall meaning of the Bible, mixed with unscriptural and cultish teachings and practices that have the potential to cause severe spiritual, psychological, physical, and financial damage to its members.
Not sure what my own definition is yet, but I found this one more than interesting. At first I was reminded of James' words (Chap 3):
Quote:
But no one can tame the tongue; it is a restless evil and full of deadly poison. with it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the likeness of God; from the same mouth come both blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be this way. Does a fountain send out from the same opening both fresh and bitter water?
It seems quite obvious that every curse issued from the LSM podiums has come true concerning them. They have been cursed with all the curses they spoke about others. Is not the Recovery, like Judaism of old, filled with unresolvable contradictions?

When I left the LC, and found this forum, a nagging question haunted me: "How could something so good become so bad?" Cursing others was a huge contributor. How they need the book of James!
07-06-2019 10:10 PM
Jo S
Re: Definition of "The Lordīs Recovery"

Quote:
Originally Posted by HERn View Post
Speaking of waterfowl, has anyone heard from Drake? My take is that both Drake and Evangelical were given release time from their other LSM/DCP work to mess with our heads here. They fought a good fight, but I guess their hearts were not in it (even though their minds were!).
I too was wondering what happened to Evangelical. Him and I used to get into it quite a bit. Is it too wishful to think that maybe the Lord has been working on their hearts?
07-06-2019 08:36 PM
Jo S
Re: Definition of "The Lordīs Recovery"

Quote:
Originally Posted by byHismercy View Post
This is exactly how the Lord used all things(negative, damaging things) which were perpetrated on us in the LC, for good...

...My first impression seeing the similarities in the fruit of both NAR and LC, the abuse of members, the lifting up and covering of leaders, was......same source! Same father. Same spirit at work in both.....and not that of the Holy Spirit.

byHismercy
Amen byHismercy. Even though your experience in the Lord's Recovery was painful, I'm glad you're still able to see God's heart in all of it.
07-06-2019 07:56 PM
HERn
Re: Definition of "The Lordīs Recovery"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo S View Post
Ok, you can continue calling it a duck. I'll keep calling it waterfowl.
Speaking of waterfowl, has anyone heard from Drake? My take is that both Drake and Evangelical were given release time from their other LSM/DCP work to mess with our heads here. They fought a good fight, but I guess their hearts were not in it (even though their minds were!).
07-06-2019 07:48 PM
Jo S
Re: Definition of "The Lordīs Recovery"

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
But if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck it should be called a duck.
Ok, you can continue calling it a duck. I'll keep calling it waterfowl.
07-06-2019 07:01 PM
byHismercy
Re: Definition of "The Lordīs Recovery"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo S View Post
I do understand where you're going with all of this, ZNP. Let me simplify this through a martial arts analogy.
Ok, this is scarily accurate, Jo S. This is exactly how the Lord used all things(negative, damaging things) which were perpetrated on us in the LC, for good, for ultimately speaking to me, teaching me, gaining me, increasing my faith in His love, and overall tweaking where I was looking. These past couple years have been filled with the blessing that comes from looking for Him in actions taken by the LC(He was not there), and in His word(where I discovered He didn't shun me, that was exclusively the LC). Now He is my all in all, and I walk now knowing He did not allow me to remain in a state of veiled deception in that 'movement'. I have always thought of my faith in terms of, how could He increase it, or perfect it? I have prayed for that because He said He would, and now He actually has.

And that link to the folks testifying to the NAR movement was freaky, too by the way. The LC is not even unique. It has an American twin in NAR. How ironic. The only thing the Lee ministry had going for it......

My first impression seeing the similarities in the fruit of both NAR and LC, the abuse of members, the lifting up and covering of leaders, was......same source! Same father. Same spirit at work in both.....and not that of the Holy Spirit.

byHismercy
07-06-2019 05:39 PM
Jo S
Re: Definition of "The Lordīs Recovery"

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
Are you saying that the all things here does not refer to the Local Church? For example, does the book of Job relate a "genuine move of God"? How about the book of Exodus? What about the gospels? If so, then doesn't Satan's attack on Job, Pharaohs chasing the Israelites with his army and the Romans crucifying Jesus all fall within the "Genuine move of God"?
I do understand where you're going with all of this, ZNP. Let me simplify this through a martial arts analogy.

Aikido is a Japanese martial art known for using your opponents momentum and energy against them.

The Lord is like an Aikido master is that He can use anything that comes against His will for his purpose but not in the ways we may think.

In the example of the Lord's Recovery, He can certainly use this movement in the building up of His church.

He may not use it directly as the culmination of His sole move that began in Jerusalem but He can use it to sharpen the discernment of His children that fell into the movement as preparation for His future plans for them.

In short, the Lord can use movements like the Lord's Recovery but that does not mean they are from Him.

I hope that makes sense.
07-06-2019 05:10 PM
Jo S
Re: Definition of "The Lordīs Recovery"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trapped View Post
Definition of the Lord's Recovery: human history.
Playing it safe. Funny . In hindsight, I probably should've taken your approach.
07-06-2019 05:09 PM
ZNPaaneah
Re: Definition of "The Lordīs Recovery"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo S View Post
By "off topic", I meant making this about ourselves but fair enough. For the sake of fruitful discussion I'll try to clarify the best I can.

By "genuine move of God" I'm using that phase in the context of the building up of Christ's church.
I assume you are basing this on the Lord's word that "I will build my church".

In scripture, we see Christ first laying the foundation of his church through his ministry with his disciples but the actual brick laying didn't occur until Pentecost.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo S View Post
I do believe there is a genuine move of God that began in Jerusalem but I believe this is the one and only move of God that there is with the man Christ Jesus and no one else at the helm. And this move is still occurring to this day until all things come to completion.
That is a teaching very much in line with Witness Lee's teaching.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo S View Post
The issue is that we don't have the bird's-eye view of His church, only God does, thus movements like the Lord's Recovery or the NAR which claim that they alone are God's restorative effort on earth will only end up creating something else altogether because these so called "apostles" or MOTAs cannot see the entire picture like Christ can.
Which is why I object to the use of this term. We are not God. It is really for God to determine what is and is not a genuine move of His.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo S View Post
ZNP, the way you misquoted John 1:3 has me concerned. You changed the context from past tense to present tense. That verse refers to the beginning of creation and not to all that exists today. This alludes to the belief that can be found in Daoism and pantheism, that is, the belief that God is in all things. This is simply not true. Brother, I'd test this in prayer and with scripture.

I hope that helps.
Perhaps you would prefer Jesus is Lord? That is not past tense. Or perhaps this verse:

15 who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him;

Are you saying that the all things here does not refer to the Local Church? For example, does the book of Job relate a "genuine move of God"? How about the book of Exodus? What about the gospels? If so, then doesn't Satan's attack on Job, Pharaohs chasing the Israelites with his army and the Romans crucifying Jesus all fall within the "Genuine move of God"?
07-06-2019 04:52 PM
Jo S
Re: Definition of "The Lordīs Recovery"

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
The topic is for each of us, including you, to give a definition of the Lord's Recovery. Therefore understanding your definition and your use of the words "genuine move of God" is certainly on topic.
I strongly dislike this term "genuine move of God" and consider that it is at the very heart of the error, not only in the Local Church but with a myriad of groups that have left the narrow way. It is an arrogant term. Is presupposes that God is not moving in a thousand different ways, which is arrogant. It is presumptuous because the implication is that God is genuinely moving with us, hence not with you. Finally, who is the "judge" that decides? If as you say, God is moving behind the scenes in the hearts and minds of Christians within the Local church then how can you say that for them this is not a genuine move of God?
By "off topic", I meant making this about ourselves but fair enough. For the sake of fruitful discussion I'll try to clarify the best I can.

By "genuine move of God" I'm using that phrase in the context of the building up of Christ's church.

In scripture, we see Christ first laying the foundation of his church through his ministry with his disciples but the actual brick laying didn't occur until Pentecost.

I do believe there is a genuine move of God that began in Jerusalem but I believe this is the one and only move of God that there is with the man Christ Jesus and no one else at the helm. And this move is still occurring to this day until all things come to completion.

The issue is that we don't have a bird's-eye view of His church, only God does, thus movements like the Lord's Recovery or the NAR which claim that they alone are God's restorative effort on earth will only end up creating something else altogether because these so called "apostles" or MOTAs cannot see the entire picture like Christ can.

ZNP, the way you misquoted John 1:3 has me concerned. You changed the context from past tense to present tense. That verse refers to the beginning of creation and not to all that exists today. This alludes to the belief that can be found in Daoism and pantheism, that is, the belief that God is in all things. This is simply not true. Brother, I'd test this in prayer and with scripture.

I hope that helps.
07-06-2019 04:45 PM
ZNPaaneah
Re: Definition of "The Lordīs Recovery"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trapped View Post
Definition of the Lord's Recovery: human history.
simple yet all inclusive

Jesus is Lord
07-06-2019 04:43 PM
Trapped
Re: Definition of "The Lordīs Recovery"

Definition of the Lord's Recovery: human history.

Trapped
07-06-2019 03:53 PM
ZNPaaneah
Re: Definition of "The Lordīs Recovery"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo S View Post
ZNP, I don't want to get too far off topic but to me it's very simple. I look to scripture and see that there is no new revelation to be given to the church after Christ's revelation to John (Rev 22:18).
The topic is for each of us, including you, to give a definition of the Lord's Recovery. Therefore understanding your definition and your use of the words "genuine move of God" is certainly on topic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo S View Post
The driving force behind the Lord's Recovery has been from the beginning extra-biblical special revelation of "one church one city". The Holy Spirit wouldn't contradict God's Word. That's not to say behind the scenes the Lord wasn't been working on the hearts and minds of Christians within the Recovery.
I strongly dislike this term "genuine move of God" and consider that it is at the very heart of the error, not only in the Local Church but with a myriad of groups that have left the narrow way. It is an arrogant term. Is presupposes that God is not moving in a thousand different ways, which is arrogant. It is presumptuous because the implication is that God is genuinely moving with us, hence not with you. Finally, who is the "judge" that decides? If as you say, God is moving behind the scenes in the hearts and minds of Christians within the Local church then how can you say that for them this is not a genuine move of God?
07-06-2019 11:53 AM
Jo S
Re: Definition of "The Lordīs Recovery"

ZNP, I don't want to get too far off topic but to me it's very simple. I look to scripture and see that there is no new revelation to be given to the church after Christ's revelation to John (Rev 22:18). The driving force behind the Lord's Recovery has been from the beginning extra-biblical special revelation of "one church one city". The Holy Spirit wouldn't contradict God's Word. That's not to say behind the scenes the Lord wasn't been working on the hearts and minds of Christians within the Recovery.
07-06-2019 11:48 AM
ZNPaaneah
Re: Definition of "The Lordīs Recovery"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo S View Post
A movement initiated by God through the Holy Spirit.
So you are saying there are movements that are not initiated by God? How do you reconcile that with "all things came into being through Him and apart from Him nothing exists that exists"? Also, how do you reconcile this with "all things work together for good to those that love God and are called according to purpose"? Could that really happen if the Holy Spirit was not in all things and working in all things?
07-06-2019 11:45 AM
Jo S
Re: Definition of "The Lordīs Recovery"

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
Can you define "genuine move of God"?
A movement initiated by God through the Holy Spirit.
07-06-2019 11:39 AM
ZNPaaneah
Re: Definition of "The Lordīs Recovery"

Can you define "genuine move of God"?
07-06-2019 11:26 AM
Jo S
Re: Definition of "The Lordīs Recovery"

Baptist Christian minister, Walter Martin, I believe describes the Local Churches quite well in this exerpt;

Cult expert Walter Martin was a master in understanding ‘cultspeak’, warning people to realize there is a language barrier between Christians and cultists. He stated,

“The average non-Christian cult owes its very existence to the fact that it has utilized the terminology of Christianity, has borrowed liberally from the Bible (almost always out of context), and sprinkled its format with evangelical cliches and terms wherever possible or advantageous. Up to now this has been a highly successful attempt to represent their respective systems of thought as “Christian.”


Because of stigma and the view of the term "cult" as being a slur, I personally hesitate using it to describe the Local Churches.

My definition is this: the Lord's Recovery is a group centered around a culture veiled in biblical Christianity that was given rise to by Watchman Nee and Witness Lee through their eclectic collection and implementation of eastern mystic and Pentecostal charismatic thought leading to a what I would describe as a religious movement spreading a "false gospel".

This may offend some so I apologize in advance but I'll also add that I often hear about the "glory days" within the Local Churches. While I do believe sincere and caring Christians fall into the Local Churches I don't believe the Lord's Recovery was ever a genuine move of God, not even in the beginning. I say that now knowing their effectiveness in executing mysticism or mind emptying and dissociative practices that give the individual a temporary and fleeting sense of wellbeing from their personal issues and a tight knit community centered around special "revelation" to help give reinforcement. This is where I believe the initial sense of enthusiasm stemmed from.

Harsh, I know, but in the spirit or transparency there you go...

I'll finish by saying that the Local Churches, on the surface, got so many things right like a sense of community, home meetings, strong (often times too strong) emphasis of many good Christian values but their fatal flaw was putting men and their own unique visions in the place of Jesus Christ and his revelation.
07-06-2019 09:30 AM
Raptor
Definition of "The Lordīs Recovery"

For some "The Lordīs Recovery" is Godīs up to date move to recover lost Biblical truths and practices in order to build up the church and bring Christ back, .... for others the Recovery is a cult, cult, cult and a cult. And then there is everything in between.

Nobody is going to define it 100% correctly, we all have different backgrounds, experiences, and understandings. Even our own definition might change with time.

My definition now is,

The Recovery is a religious organization centered around the person and teachings of Witness Lee composed of a mixture of scriptural and enlightening teachings and practices about the christian faith, the purpose of human life and the overall meaning of the Bible, mixed with unscriptural and cultish teachings and practices that have the potential to cause severe spiritual, psychological, physical, and financial damage to its members.

What is your definition?

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