Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Exactly! It sounds a little like what they say in politics, "Don't let any good crises go to waste!" That is, make sure that you use the crises to gain more ground.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Why would any Christian minister dream up the notion of deputy authority when so much of scripture clearly repudiates such claims, and so much church history reveals the damages caused? Wasn't the first "deputy authority" the Pope?

When did Nee and Lee begin to promote these horrible ideas? They were already "kings" in their respective "kingdoms." Supposedly it was following a rebellion, an attempted takeover by evil ambitious men, and the justification for asserting this teaching was to protect the church of God from chaos and false accusations. Didn't you know that powerful leaders always protect the church from evil?

Nothing could be further from the truth. The false teaching of deputy authority was promoted to protect the leader from being accountable for sin.

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

What a crock! This is why I've chosen to not read any books about this. There are elders where I meet, and I don't want any silly, man-made opinions I might form hindering fellowship between us. These guys are brothers first and foremost, and to consider them as something lofty would be a rip-off for all involved. Know what I mean? Yes, they have a position which I respect, and I pray for the Lord to give them strength and wisdom, but we don't need some silly opinions about man's "deputy authority." I much rather trust the Anointing regarding this potentially harmful matter!

Originally Posted by Terry

"you're going against God's deputy authority".

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

I was wondering what you mean by that. TLR preached against the clergy/laity, and rightly so I believe. BUT I think they practice it too, behind a veil of eldership. As I remember, by definition it is someone who is above, that is, telling others what to do. This is a blatant usurping of the headship of Christ. "It is for freedom that Christ set us free" (Gal 5:1), and not to be yoked under bondage of someone besides the Anointing One within.

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

I was wondering what you mean by that. TLR preached against the clergy/laity, and rightly so I believe. BUT I think they practice it too, behind a veil of eldership. As I remember, by definition it is someone who is above, that is, telling others what to do. This is a blatant usurping of the headship of Christ. "It is for freedom that Christ set us free" (Gal 5:1), and not to be yoked under bondage of someone besides the Anointing One within.

Originally Posted by Terry

The Lord's Recovery as they like to call themselves as is a cesspool of blatant hypocrisy. Clergy/Laity is just one of many examples.

Originally Posted by aron

It was a clever back-door ruse. "No opinions" meant only my opinion ever got heard. "No Pastor" meant I got to direct everything. "No culture" meant only my culture set group norms. "No ambition" meant only my ambition got validated.

I've mentioned before, how remarkable it was that one speaker gave hundreds and hundreds of messages in front of thousands, and at the end of every message they'd line up at the microphones to congratulate the speaker on his brilliant insights, but did anyone ever come up to the mike and say, "Hey Brother Lee - your point A(2)b doesn't seem to line up with what you taught last winter in the Ezekiel Training"? Or, "Watchman Nee said something quite different here"? No - critique never came out of the assembly, post-message. It was all, validation, validation, validation - what a revelation, that God has given to [us] His people!

This observation leads me to think that BL was either dispositionally or positionally without fault, and really was "channeling God", or else he was some kind of charlatan who led the captive assembly into a lazy and stupefied self-satisfaction, with perhaps a side dose of fear. The disposition hypothesis fails with Daystar and Philip Lee as the Office. The position hypothesis needs its source culture to survive - don't question the Big Boss. It's not biblical. In the Bible when leaders erred they got called on it. So that leaves me looking at the third option.

Originally Posted by HERn

The first book I read after leaving the LC and attending a community Church was Desiring God by John Piper.

Originally Posted by awareness

I find E. P. Sanders does that in leaps and bounds.

Originally Posted by Raptor

I was just recently asking the Lord this week that if there is no single MOTA, then who else in the Body today have You given as gifts that minister according to the New Testament ministry? And out of nowhere as I was looking for resources on the net on how to speak to Jehovah Witnesses, (I just found out a couple that befriended me in my neighborhood is JW) I ran into this YouTube video by a John Piper....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHg7YcJ2NPQ

His sharing is sharp, penetrating, full of power and light....

And then I found this one on "How does Christ live in me?" Gal. 2:20

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAnByp5lt-M

This is healthy teaching. (I hope the rest of his ministry is similar.....)

Originally Posted by HERn

Yep, don't know how rabid a Calvinist he is. The first book I read after leaving the LC and attending a community Church was Desiring God by John Piper. Made the writing of LSM and RK look sophomoric.

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Is John Piper calvinist? I was told he is.

Originally Posted by Raptor

I was just recently asking the Lord this week that if there is no single MOTA, then who else in the Body today have You given as gifts that minister according to the New Testament ministry? And out of nowhere as I was looking for resources on the net on how to speak to Jehovah Witnesses, (I just found out a couple that befriended me in my neighborhood is JW) I ran into this YouTube video by a John Piper....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHg7YcJ2NPQ

His sharing is sharp, penetrating, full of power and light....

And then I found this one on "How does Christ live in me?" Gal. 2:20

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAnByp5lt-M

This is healthy teaching. (I hope the rest of his ministry is similar.....)

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

John Piper's books, "Desiring God." I was amazed at the focus on Christ, the talk of experiencing God, and the living water Piper shared in that book.

Originally Posted by HERn

That's precious! I'm returning to the locality that I excommunicated the elders from my family's life, and have thought about restarting a non-LSM home meeting where we can enjoy the Lord and His word without interference.

Originally Posted by HERn

That's precious! I'm returning to the locality that I excommunicated the elders from my family's life, and have thought about restarting a non-LSM home meeting where we can enjoy the Lord and His word without interference.

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Funny and not so funny at the same time! Twenty some years ago I would have been amazed by that statement, because I still believed the line I was fed since 1974: "There is nothing of the Lord's life to be experienced outside TLR!" I was so cast-down, exasperated and nearly in tears trying to find something living outside the LC. That's when the Lord led me in 1998 to one of John Piper's books, "Desiring God." I was amazed at the focus on Christ, the talk of experiencing God, and the living water Piper shared in that book.

With the fire rekindled within me, I was immediately drawn to gather with the saints (numerous ex-LCers + others) here in Scottsdale, and this gathering has been my rest ever since. Praise God!

Originally Posted by Adelphos

That is fantastic news! There is abundant life outside the religious slavery of the LC/LSM system.

Originally Posted by HERn

I wish all the brothers and sisters could experience this, I know I desperately need this to live a normal life!

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

My spirit sank at hearing these ones, who were being robbed of the fresh witnessing of Christ working in and through them!

We have a Thursday brothers' breakfast gathering that is most rich. This is because there is no set agenda. We sing, eat and then freely share Christ with one another. Over and over and over we'll make the comment, "Boy, I wish that all was recorded!" This is because the spontaneity of the Spirit that comes through the various brothers is just astounding, incredible and watering. Thank you Jesus!!!

Originally Posted by HERn

That's basically like it was when I was there at the beginning. We had to keep to the assigned reading but we could bring in all kinds of testimonies, etc. Towards the end in another locality where the full-timers who had gone to the FTTA and the original FTTT in the 80s were in control, it was just repeat the speaking. In many of the other groups I've been in there has always been places and times for small group interactions where you could share from the Word, your experiences, testimonies, and prayer requests. This has been going on in Christ's church a long time and continues without LSM stepping in to control. Hey LSM, maybe God is really sovereign and does move in His church and does not need the co-workers and being blinded brothers to help God out. If you think otherwise I think you're agnostic.

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

WINNER WINNER CHICKEN DINNER!! That is a HUGE benefit to the body, and I wish it was practiced by more (including the LC)!

Originally Posted by Terry

I wonder how many 2nd generation ckids remember the era before Holy Word for Morning Revival. Instead of prophesying according to HWFMR there was testifying according to your daily experience of Christ from the week. In my opinion as a young Christian, that was far more beneficial.
Holy Word for Morning Revival-that's clergy/laiety all because of a book.

Originally Posted by Adelphos

Unless they are a 2nd generation church kid they are to blame for being stuck in this.

Originally Posted by awareness

I remember Lee saying at a conference back in the 70s that just by being at the conference we were being transformed into the image of Christ.

That's some highfalutin claim that, just by being in Lee's presence it was transforming us.

Just who did Lee think his was anyway. Did his shadow heal the sick?

Originally Posted by Adelphos

I began attending the LC meetings after seeing a small group passing out books at an outside market in the Greater Seattle Area. I noticed right away the reliance the members had on the Morning Revival Books. Jesus is the Way, the TRUTH and the Life but they replaced the word truth with "Reality" Very strange I thought. Perhaps they are trying to make sure people don't hear the word truth anymore so that they can undermine any sense of truthful scriptural teaching. I think of that now after discovering just how SINISTER some of this human-centered doctrine really is. Glad we all escaped. All Glory to God.

Originally Posted by aron

Notice how they'd sometimes label the meeting series or conferences as "perfecting trainings"? By getting "trained" or conformed to the groupthink, you were supposedly getting more like the Ascended Master BL, who we now realize was anything but perfect. And yet the conceit was that by getting sucked deeper into the rabbit hole, you were getting "perfected".

Originally Posted by aron

It was a clever back-door ruse. "No opinions" meant only my opinion ever got heard. "No Pastor" meant I got to direct everything. "No culture" meant only my culture set group norms. "No ambition" meant only my ambition got validated.

I've mentioned before, how remarkable it was that one speaker gave hundreds and hundreds of messages in front of thousands, and at the end of every message they'd line up at the microphones to congratulate the speaker on his brilliant insights, but did anyone ever come up to the mike and say, "Hey Brother Lee - your point A(2)b doesn't seem to line up with what you taught last winter in the Ezekiel Training"? Or, "Watchman Nee said something quite different here"? No - critique never came out of the assembly, post-message. It was all, validation, validation, validation - what a revelation, that God has given to [us] His people!

This observation leads me to think that BL was either dispositionally or positionally without fault, and really was "channeling God", or else he was some kind of charlatan who led the captive assembly into a lazy and stupefied self-satisfaction, with perhaps a side dose of fear. The disposition hypothesis fails with Daystar and Philip Lee as the Office. The position hypothesis needs its source culture to survive - don't question the Big Boss. It's not biblical. In the Bible when leaders erred they got called on it. So that leaves me looking at the third option.

Originally Posted by aron

Notice how they'd sometimes label the meeting series or conferences as "perfecting trainings"? By getting "trained" or conformed to the groupthink, you were supposedly getting more like the Ascended Master BL, who we now realize was anything but perfect. And yet the conceit was that by getting sucked deeper into the rabbit hole, you were getting "perfected".

Originally Posted by Igzy

I personally don't believe Lee was a charlatan. I believe he was delusional. He really believed his own PR. He really thought he was the ultimate spiritual authority on earth at the time. And he acted accordingly. Now he was monumentally deceived. But he wasn't purely cynical. He was misled by his own delusion of power. Whatever contradictions that produced he rationalized away. The end justified the means. After all, he was the MOTA, right?

You don't have to be completely evil for God to be against you for your false visions.

Originally Posted by Igzy

I personally don't believe Lee was a charlatan. I believe he was delusional. He really believed his own PR. He really thought he was the ultimate spiritual authority on earth at the time. And he acted accordingly. Now he was monumentally deceived. But he wasn't purely cynical. He was misled by his own delusion of power. Whatever contradictions that produced he rationalized away. The end justified the means. After all, he was the MOTA, right?

You don't have to be completely evil for God to be against you for your false visions.

Originally Posted by awareness

The latter brother, the latter.

Originally Posted by aron

This observation leads me to think that BL was either dispositionally or positionally without fault, and really was "channeling God", or else he was some kind of charlatan who led the captive assembly into a lazy and stupefied self-satisfaction, with perhaps a side dose of fear.

Originally Posted by Adelphos

They claim we are all pastors, teachers etc. I think a man of God in charge might throw away all those books and lead a group out of servitude to LSM.

Originally Posted by Adelphos

Quite telling in my opinion as to why there is no Pastor in authority in any LC as there is in other churches. They claim we are all pastors, teachers etc. I think a man of God in charge might throw away all those books and lead a group out of servitude to LSM. The structure is designed so that there is no authoritative challenge to LSM...

Originally Posted by awareness

Christian Dominionists want to bring back stoning. But methinks they overlooked Biblical stoning of false prophets, and that there might not be enough stones for all the Christian prophet/profit leaders that so frequently rise up among them, claiming to be Bible interpreters from God.

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

Witness Lee always distorts the true meaning. He modifies some biblical verse for justifying his cultish beliefs and what Blended Brothers are teaching.

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

Witness Lee always distorts the true meaning. He modifies some biblical verse for justifying his cultish beliefs and what Blended Brothers are teaching.