Originally Posted by MarsVolta

This faking of personality is what made me so great at customer service and management later in life. I can fake whatever I need to. It was easier to fake that your personality, then go through hours of re-programming and mental/physical abuse for not faking it.

Originally Posted by kappagamma

This is quite arrogant, yes? I would argue that - yes, while there is quite a bit of Lee in our upbringing you are talking about a lifetime of Bible reading, verse memorization, etc. The RV wasn't out our whole lives...we've read other Bibles, too... and further... those of us who have made the choice to leave no doubt have spent countless hours comparing translations and what is offered by other denominations etc to see what else is out there. We just aren't puffed up about it (only some offense intended). Also LOL at growing up with closed minds. Have you actually observed the cross-section of "Church Kids" out there? How "open" is any hard-core religious fanatics mind? And how "closed" is someone who has chosen a different path? Have you seen how many posts on this forum get stormed by certain individuals with certain viewpoints? That's a heck of a lot more closed-minded than most of the "Church Kids" I know... but what would I know... I only am...er....was one

Originally Posted by awareness

Anyway, those growing up in the LC have a ton of catching up to do. They followed only one voice, Lee's. That leaves 'em incredibly short on christian matters.
Google and Wikipedia are just starting off points. And so is the opening up of their minds. After growing up with closed minds, that ain't easy.
May the Lord of all knowledge be with them. And thanks to Him for the abundance of the internet. We wouldn't be here without it.

Originally Posted by kappagamma

3) Performance. I've known - and been myself- one who knew what to say and how to say it and when to say it in meetings of the LC and felt nothing on the inside. No thanks. I don't want to belong to an organization that says they are outside of religion and culture but very clearly has one all of its own. We all know it does. We all know what we are supposed to do and say or not do and not say. Fake. I don't like acting and didn't want to do it anymore.

Originally Posted by kappagamma

I grew up in what I believed at the time to be a fairly strict LC household but as I've come to hear of other experiences it was not as strict as I once thought. I was required to attend every Sunday, as well summer school of truths, conferences, and even semi-annuals when I was older. I lived in a sisters house a few years in college and attended FTT-Anaheim for two years. I would say that I was marginally in the CL until the FTT. It was there that most of the issues that I had came to the forefront and I, from that point, couldn't ignore it anymore and made my eventual (but quiet) exit. To me it was just another religion and, having been taught my whole life religion was bad... well, there you have it. Really intrigued to know if there are others here who have been through the FTT and found it to remove a veil rather than adding one?

Originally Posted by kappagamma

That being said I am very happy to have left this movement, even at some personal cost, and have some basic reasons:

1) Witness Lee died a long time ago. We were fed the line "standing on shoulders" year after year after year and I am highly skeptical that circa 1997 the "high peak" was reached and there is no growth/revelation left to attain. It has been 22 years. The world has changed, technology has changed, but God hasn't? I don't think so.

2) Women's roles in LC (and beyond). I'm sorry, I don't buy it. I am not a second class citizen. The suppression of women is not my thing and I'm not going to be complacent about it. I can't belong to an organization that silences and suppresses and demeans half (or more) of it's population.

3) Performance. I've known - and been myself- one who knew what to say and how to say it and when to say it in meetings of the LC and felt nothing on the inside. No thanks. I don't want to belong to an organization that says they are outside of religion and culture but very clearly has one all of its own. We all know it does. We all know what we are supposed to do and say or not do and not say. Fake. I don't like acting and didn't want to do it anymore.

4) Suppression of identity. This ties to #3 some but I would say that I feel like a shell of the person I'm supposed to be because individuality was so suppressed. Is this sentiment shared by anyone else? I feel so damaged being raised in this environment.

5) Purity culture. Unhealthy level of separation between male/female. I'm not saying that a church has should embrace immorality but there are healthy ways to teach interaction between the sexes and unhealthy ones. LC doesn't do it right and the impact it has had within the LC and other evangelical groups is real and documented. Really good books out there to read on this subject. (emphasis added)

Originally Posted by aron

I'll see you and I'll raise you one. Not only is the Bible freely available in various forms but the surrounding literature as well. For instance, the Dead Sea Scrolls open up a window to the messianic expectations of a separatist sect called the Essenes. When John the Baptist came out of the desert preaching repentance, he greeted the religious ones coming from Jerusalem with epithets. Clearly there's a back story here.

Witness Lee famously told us that he hadn't learned anything from anyone for 45 years. For those coming out of the LC/LR, there's some catching up to do!

Of course there are a lot of flakes out there, a lot of proverbial chaff. But with the internet one can sort through things fairly quickly. We have resources available that were undreamed of 30 years ago.

Originally Posted by JJ

These days purchasing a paper Bible is not necessarily needed as free on-line Bibles can be used with computer, tablet, and smart phone with internet connection or download. I use Bible Hub, Bible Gateway, and Blue Letter Bibles for different purposes. Just put each name into a search engine and viola, pick each one and try them out).... all major and many minor translations are there, individually or side by side in parallel mode). I like the literal translations like Berean’s and Young’s as well as Strong’s NASB in Bible Hub. Lot’s of tools including Greek and Hebrew text and commentaries are included. Bible Gateway has audio mode for some versions, which I like for quick reading.

Originally Posted by kappagamma

I will say though that jumping into this forum has perhaps sparked a small amount of seeking that I have not had in many, many years. I almost bought a Bible the other day but am torn between versions at the moment

Originally Posted by kappagamma

I have a lot of trouble with some of the accusations made against the LC - either because they are before my time or presented too vaguely to carry the necessary weight to resonate with me... or they don't match the sentiment that I have from being raised in this environment as opposed to those who chose it for themselves in adulthood. Being raised this way is very different and the beliefs instilled from youth are ingrained into who we are - it's not as easy as just leaving a movement. You literally are removing threads from the fabric of your identity. I am not sure, for that reason, that this forum is particularly the right place for me or not but it's better than nothing.

Originally Posted by kappagamma

Being raised this way is very different and the beliefs instilled from youth are ingrained into who we are - it's not as easy as just leaving a movement. You literally are removing threads from the fabric of your identity. I am not sure, for that reason, that this forum is particularly the right place for me or not but it's better than nothing.

Originally Posted by Ohio

How many others, like aron, were "manipulated" as youngsters to "come forward" and confess their sins and confess His name?

Originally Posted by Ohio

Then which is it? Are we saved by faith, or by being born again? In a normal world, both exist together, but these are not normal times. Thoughts?

Originally Posted by aron

I raised some objections about the LC/LR awhile back and a defender of things LSM on this forum replied, "So what? The Baptists also do this". See above, and consider the similarities. I was raised in a Baptist Church and got the fire-and-brimstone pulpit thunder, and was given the "sawdust trail" to walk on, to come forward in a revival meeting and save my soul from eternal perdition. I was, what, 10 years old? Manipulating emotionally open young persons who lack critical faculties? Amen.

But my objection was, and remains, that at its best - its best - the LC/LR is no better than the Baptists. And at its worst it is much worse. No Baptist preacher that I know says that he has the Ministry of the age, that all churches must align under his teachings, some questionable, in an absolute fashion. "If you're not 100% under me get out". All churches must be "absolutely identical" with one another and "not having any individual distinctiveness" (Footnote 1, Revelation 1:20 RecV).

No, the Baptists just give the "low gospel", believe into Jesus and be saved. They don't offer all the "extras", sorry - "High Peaks", that the LC/LR does. I believe that's why so many leave the Christian faith once they leave the LC/LR. Even FTTA graduates, who can't separate God from the LSM. So they toss everything.

Originally Posted by aron

I was raised in a Baptist Church and got the fire-and-brimstone pulpit thunder, and was given the "sawdust trail" to walk on, to come forward in a revival meeting and save my soul from eternal perdition. I was, what, 10 years old? Manipulating emotionally open young persons who lack critical faculties? Amen.

No, the Baptists just give the "low gospel", believe into Jesus and be saved. They don't offer all the "extras", sorry - "High Peaks", that the LC/LR does. I believe that's why so many leave the Christian faith once they leave the LC/LR. Even FTTA graduates, who can't separate God from the LSM. So they toss everything.

Originally Posted by aron

It was all about your choice once, now it's all about denying your kids the same choice, the same option to find a path and follow it. Everything in the "pipeline" was designed to carefully, bit by bit, remove any vestige of choice.

Yet they couldn't see it. They were so convinced that they could manufacture some crisis point (carefully built up since they were in diapers) to get the progeny to "choose Christ" which meant "choose Christ and the Church" which meant "submit to the Ministry of the Age" etc etc. The whole thing a big manufactured sham..

Originally Posted by Weighingin

"God came to me" was encouraging to me. At this time I'm wondering who God is, how does Christ fit in, etc? It is similiar to how I was before I came to the Lc in the earlier 70s. I would think I'm in my mind, I'm not exercising my spirit, I don't pray enough, I didn't have morning watch. But Christ became objective and not real to me much of the time. We only want your Christ, brother.
But now that I realize the LSM is not the unique way to the fullness of God in Christ, I'm not certain what to do except the basic Christian practices and beware of any killing or discouraging teachings.

Originally Posted by awareness

I love your gospel Aron. I have to share that after the LC I went thru all that you expressed about not wanting to be a Christian ; all the lack of evidence.

At one point, even, I was going around calling God deaf dumb and mute, because I was doing all the talking, while nothing from Him.

But at one point God came to me. Then I realized that it's not up to me. Which is good. Cuz if it depends on me I'm not going to make it.

Originally Posted by awareness

I love your gospel Aron. I have to share that after the LC I went thru all that you expressed about not wanting to be a Christian ; all the lack of evidence.

At one point, even, I was going around calling God deaf dumb and mute, because I was doing all the talking, while nothing from Him.

But at one point God came to me. Then I realized that it's not up to me. Which is good. Cuz if it depends on me I'm not going to make it.

Originally Posted by aron

If I was an unbeliever reading some of these posts I'd probably say, "I'm so glad I'm not a Christian!" Who wants to end up arguing over textual variants! Not that these posters are, but much of Christian discussion is about fluff. Vague, unprovable concepts, small data sets, ignorance and bias. I can still hear Witness Lee saying, "This means that" and, "This shows us that" and, "We must see that"... Assumption piled onto assumption.

"So subjective is my Christ in me..." yes so subjective. And who else would want your subjectivity as their de facto objective reality? No thanks!

Not speaking for kappagamma, but this was her thread, once.

I think this is a valid objection and should be taken on face value. If the Lord's Recovery (LR) teaches that ALL religion is bad, and an ex "Church Kid" realizes that there's nothing in the LR for them, then why not ditch religion altogether?

1. Nobody can prove God exists.
2. Nobody can prove that God raised Jesus from the dead.
3. Nobody can prove that the blood of Jesus does cleanse you from sin.
4. Nobody can prove that there is consciousness after death, which needs forgiveness to avoid suffering, torment etc.

I mean, if the whole thing ends up arguing over declensions and the meaning of the word "nature", then why not just chuck it all? I think that's a pretty good argument.

In my case, I am a Christian because I chose to believe in God (a universe with God somehow seemed 'warmer' than a universe without God [sorry]), and I thought the narrative figure of 'Jesus' still remains the most compelling story of human history. If it wasn't true, I wish it were. So I believe.

The "church" I am less sanguine about. But Jesus as the route to God seems attractive to me. Sorta like your first teen-age crush - you can't really explain it but it just feels right. But why impose that on others!?! Either they get it or they don't. If they don't get it, let them be at peace! I mean, really! The "gospel" should not be about us imposing our neediness on others. Most of the LR-type "gospel" I see is just that. People "need" recruits because their masters at HQ are thumping the drum - revenues are down, growth is flat - go out there and sell, sell, sell! So they go out and impose themselves on weak-willed souls.

The gospel should be a display of power - the same power that raised Jesus from the dead. It should be so obvious. If there's any curtain-pulling moment where the Great and Powerful Wizard of Oz is shown to be just a con man, well so be it (I think of WL's phone call to Sal Benoit - "It's MY business what I do with YOUR money!"). This includes Paul, Jesus, Peter, David, Moses. Everyone is on the dock. If Christianity is a sham, let's have it out on the table.

The gospel should also be a display of peace. Not speeches and rhetoric, but peace. Speech can be used, but speech can never displace peace. The gospel should be about love, patience, kindness etc. You know all the words. Get a Thesaurus. They are all there. Lastly it should be about joy. If I am unhappy because you're not a Christian, what kind of unbalanced, co-dependent 'happiness' am I seeking? Again, the majority of the Christian "gospel" I've been exposed to thus far lies in this vein: If you don't do what I want, then God won't be happy.

Oh, really!?! Get stuffed.

Jesus I'm still interested in. The rest, ...

Originally Posted by Jo S

I agree. We aren't animals and it's not based on our DNA. We have a conscience and soul bearing His image.

I think Awareness is just battling Neitzsche and the nihilistic tendencies he picked up from him.

Hang in there Harold

Originally Posted by Igzy

Well, I never said either things.

The world would not be better without us.

We are not human primates.

We are God's best creation, we bear his image. We are not primates. And the world would have no purpose without us.

Other than that, I agree with you.

Originally Posted by Igzy

Well, I never said either things.

Originally Posted by Igzy

We are not human primates.

Originally Posted by Igzy

Other than that, I agree with you.

Originally Posted by aron

kg, thanks for your voice. It is needed out here.

Originally Posted by awareness

Pretty good Igzy. The world would be a great place if there weren't people in it.

And we're all just human primates.

Originally Posted by aron

"So subjective is my Christ in me..." yes so subjective. And who else would want your subjectivity as their de facto objective reality? No thanks!

Not speaking for kappagamma, but this was her thread, once.

I think this is a valid objection and should be taken on face value. If the Lord's Recovery (LR) teaches that ALL religion is bad, and an ex "Church Kid" realizes that there's nothing in the LR for them, then why not ditch religion altogether?

1. Nobody can prove God exists.
2. Nobody can prove that God raised Jesus from the dead.
3. Nobody can prove that the blood of Jesus does cleanse you from sin.
4. Nobody can prove that there is consciousness after death, which needs forgiveness to avoid suffering, torment etc.

I mean, if the whole thing ends up arguing over declensions and the meaning of the word "nature", then why not just chuck it all? I think that's a pretty good argument.

In my case, I am a Christian because I chose to believe in God (a universe with God somehow seemed 'warmer' than a universe without God [sorry]), and I thought the narrative figure of 'Jesus' still remains the most compelling story of human history. If it wasn't true, I wish it were. So I believe.

Originally Posted by Igzy

I know this is going to sound trite, but the problem isn't God or Jesus or the Bible or even "organization." The problem is people. People are all fallen, so any time you get involved with them there are going to be problems. (This includes any time you are involved only with yourself.)

And this includes people in no matter what venue. Just going to the grocery store can be a problem because you have to deal with people.

The trouble with people is that you can't live with them and you can't live without them. That's just the way it is. So the key is to get your relationship with the Main Person (God) in line, and then let him guide you in your interaction with people.

The whole problem with the LR is the defining parameters are all whacked. There is all this angst and worry about LEAVING the LR. ("Oh, horrors!") Of course you are going to have anxiety issues if you worry about things God doesn't worry about. (Strictly speaking, though God has concerns, he doesn't worry about anything.) Let me tell you, God is not much concerned about anyone leaving the LR. Okay? It's a false concern. Leave if you want to, stay if you want to, as God leads. People change churches all the time. It's not a big deal. And, usually parents want their kids to follow in their footsteps. That's normal and human. But there is no moral imperative there. It's your life. Who has the right to tell you where you should attend church? Like I said, it's a whacked LR parameter.

But realize you are never going to find the perfect set of peeps or relationships, spiritual or secular. People are fallen. Trust me, they have the same problem with you.

Originally Posted by kappagamma

The dynamic experiences of a generation or two of people who CHOSE the LC were real to them and are valid and meaningful. Those (often) are not the experiences of "church kids" who choose to leave. Imagine being raised in that system without any of those dynamic experiences? How would you feel about Christianity? Being told your whole life this is reality and not seeing anything remotely real?

Originally Posted by kappagamma

Also I will say that there's a lot of what sounds like victim blaming. If "church kids" leave I'd say that's the fault of the parents/CL society for not providing whatever it was that drew the first gen group to Jesus in the first place. If you aren't providing what drew you to your children you're feeding them something else. That's not the kids fault.

Originally Posted by aron

Not speaking for kappagamma, but this was her thread, once.

I think this is a valid objection and should be taken on face value. If the Lord's Recovery (LR) teaches that ALL religion is bad, and an ex "Church Kid" realizes that there's nothing in the LR for them, then why not ditch religion altogether?

In my case, I am a Christian because I chose to believe in God (a universe with God somehow seemed 'warmer' than a universe without God [sorry]), and I thought the narrative figure of 'Jesus' still remains the most compelling story of human history. If it wasn't true, I wish it were. So I believe.

Originally Posted by kappagamma

I was required to attend every Sunday, as well summer school of truths, conferences, and even semi-annuals when I was older. I lived in a sisters house a few years in college and attended FTT-Anaheim for two years. I would say that I was marginally in the CL until the FTT. It was there that most of the issues that I had came to the forefront and I, from that point, couldn't ignore it anymore and made my eventual (but quiet) exit. To me it was just another religion and, having been taught my whole life religion was bad... well, there you have it. Really intrigued to know if there are others here who have been through the FTT and found it to remove a veil rather than adding one?

Originally Posted by awareness

According to Paul :

KJV : "The letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth life
ESV : "For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life."
NET : "for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life."

Strong's :
- kill:
ἀποκτείνω
apokteinō
ap-ok-ti'-no
From G575 and κτείνω kteinō (to slay); to kill outright; figuratively to destroy: - put to death, kill, slay.

- spirit :
πνεῦμα
pneuma
pnyoo'-mah
From G4154; a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is, (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, daemon, or (divine) God, Christ’s spirit, the Holy spirit: - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Compare G5590.

- life :
ζωοποιέω
zōopoieō
dzo-op-oy-eh'-o
From the same as G2226 and G4160; to (re-) vitalize (literally or figuratively): - make alive, give life, quicken.

Originally Posted by Ohio

ByHisMercy
I have always found the ego and exaltation of King James to be a little sickening personally.

Originally Posted by byHismercy

You are right to say I have only looked at one side of the debate. I took each version I had on my shelves and compared probably 15 or 20 verses against the KJV. I was really shocked at the differences, and what they did to alter the word.

The other side for me, was a testimony I saw and heard from a catholic-raised lady. She had an encounter with Jesus that converted her. Part of that story was her relating how one of her excuses to the Lord for her unbelief was the alteration of the word, the differences in translations, and her distrust of His word in these modern records. He told her it was His responsibility to uphold His truth. His word will not return to Him void! So I believe into His promise, and His ability to feed the milk and meat of the word where He intends it to go.

But after comparing the NKJV, NASB, ESV, (don't even get me started on the NIV, the Message bible) verse by verse to the KJV, I was convinced enough to get rid of all my other versions. I would be surprised to see my opinion change, however, that being said, I am open to learning more and looking at both sides, especially considering your remarks. I am sorry this grieves you, brother. What do you think about opening a separate thread on this subject, here? Or is there one already?

Originally Posted by byHismercy

You are right to say I have only looked at one side of the debate. I took each version I had on my shelves and compared probably 15 or 20 verses against the KJV. I was really shocked at the differences, and what they did to alter the word.

The other side for me, was a testimony I saw and heard from a catholic-raised lady. She had an encounter with Jesus that converted her. Part of that story was her relating how one of her excuses to the Lord for her unbelief was the alteration of the word, the differences in translations, and her distrust of His word in these modern records. He told her it was His responsibility to uphold His truth. His word will not return to Him void! So I believe into His promise, and His ability to feed the milk and meat of the word where He intends it to go.

But after comparing the NKJV, NASB, ESV, (don't even get me started on the NIV, the Message bible) verse by verse to the KJV, I was convinced enough to get rid of all my other versions. I would be surprised to see my opinion change, however, that being said, I am open to learning more and looking at both sides, especially considering your remarks. I am sorry this grieves you, brother. What do you think about opening a separate thread on this subject, here? Or is there one already?

Originally Posted by Ohio

ByHisMercy, you really should examine both sides of this debate before you accept KJV exclusivity. I have confronted this debate for decades, and it pains me how much bad information about the Textus Receptus is used to create modern day superstitions.

Originally Posted by awareness

Valid points brother. I think it's like slavery, where back in the mid-19th c. Southern Baptist's selected verses from the Bible to support the holding of slaves. BTW, the same cousin that said Eve is the reason Jesus had to die for our sins (when Paul blames it on Adam), is also the one that said God is judging America because we're not holding to His law, and the cruse of Ham, by not keeping blacks in slaver

Basically, I guess, the Bible can be used to support anything ... including Chinese/Asian culture.




I'm glad to see that. The forum needs the balance of female voices.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Good point. But happily, most of our newest members are women/sisters...so hang on to your hats fellows...the balance of power is about to be shifted around this ole popcorn stand -

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Excellent! Thank you for making my point for me. These notions do NOT come from the Bible. They come from the desperately wicked and evil heart of sinful and ignorant men. When taken as a whole, the Bible actually shows us quite an opposite portrayal and view of men and women, and their relationship to each other, and to God. The simple fact is that Witness Lee, in his teachings and established practices, continued on with a long line of Christian teachers that have corrupted the beautiful and godly relationship between men and women. Unfortunately, Lee and his followers have been quite successful in cloaking Chinese/Asian culture for "the God ordained way".

Originally Posted by awareness

I came up with it from long ago in the Southern Baptist church. And also, rather recently in the Church of Christ (Campbellites). I also heard it a year or so ago from a extended Southern Baptist family member.

Originally Posted by awareness

I came up with it from long ago in the Southern Baptist church. And also, rather recently in the Church of Christ (Campbellites). I also heard it a year or so ago from a extended Southern Baptist family member...

1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
1Ti 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Originally Posted by byHismercy

On a side note, I really like the KJVER. That's the king James version easy reader....you might also check out pastor Gene Kim and see his videos on why they stick to KJV exclusively. Pretty shocking how modern versions are stripping 'the Lord' out of the word. And other proof texts of Jesus divinity. Also the verses about the three witnesses on earth and the three witnesses in heaven....these verses present a picture of our 3in1 God, and most modern translations leave out a whole verse.....it's taking away, from what God ordered not be tampered with.

Originally Posted by kappagamma

I almost bought a Bible the other day but am torn between versions at the moment

Originally Posted by awareness

I would say for this matter to be thoroughly determined would require its own thread. However, since LCD membership is mostly male, I doubt it'd get a balanced exposition.

Originally Posted by kappagamma

I had the thought recently, based on my own experience, that if there has been as significant an amount of damage as I believe has been done to “church kids” in regard to the reasonable development of the human soul (mind, emotion, will) and if you believe that the soul and spirit are so closely connected then I would think it would make sense that, until such time real healing of the humanity of the individual has taken place, a genuine access of the spiritual realm could be difficult. Not impossible sure, but could be difficult. I think of it as scar tissue that can restrict movement and activity. I don’t know for others but I think for me there is a crying out of “look at me as a person” “see me as who I am” “care about my humanity” and if the craving is for that and you are only fed something else then eventually the proverbial stomach recoils at what is offered.

I will say though that jumping into this forum has perhaps sparked a small amount of seeking that I have not had in many, many years. I almost bought a Bible the other day but am torn between versions at the moment

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Where did you come up with such silly nonsense? Did your acting god Bart Ehrman put this into your little head? Maybe Witness Lee taught such a thing, but that would be just another good reason this forum exists.
-

Originally Posted by awareness

???????????????????????????????????

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Where did you come up with such silly nonsense? that: "women.....are to blame for Jesus having to die on the cross".
-

Originally Posted by awareness

In their defense, they get that women's bodies are a threat from the Bible.

Originally Posted by awareness

"Memoirist: Evangelical Purity Movement Sees Women's Bodies As A 'Threat'"

In their defense, they get that women's bodies are a threat from the Bible.

Originally Posted by kappagamma

I had the thought recently, based on my own experience, that if there has been as significant an amount of damage as I believe has been done to “church kids” in regard to the reasonable development of the human soul (mind, emotion, will) and if you believe that the soul and spirit are so closely connected then I would think it would make sense that, until such time real healing of the humanity of the individual has taken place, a genuine access of the spiritual realm could be difficult. Not impossible sure, but could be difficult. I think of it as scar tissue that can restrict movement and activity. I don’t know for others but I think for me there is a crying out of “look at me as a person” “see me as who I am” “care about my humanity” and if the craving is for that and you are only fed something else then eventually the proverbial stomach recoils at what is offered.

Originally Posted by kappagamma

I will say though that jumping into this forum has perhaps sparked a small amount of seeking that I have not had in many, many years. I almost bought a Bible the other day but am torn between versions at the moment

Originally Posted by kappagamma

Pure: Inside the Evangelical Movement That Shamed a Generation of Young Women and How I Broke Free by Linda Kay Klein

link to the interview: https://www.npr.org/2018/09/18/64873...es-as-a-threat

Originally Posted by kappagamma

I had the thought recently, based on my own experience, that if there has been as significant an amount of damage as I believe has been done to “church kids” in regard to the reasonable development of the human soul (mind, emotion, will) and if you believe that the soul and spirit are so closely connected then I would think it would make sense that, until such time real healing of the humanity of the individual has taken place, a genuine access of the spiritual realm could be difficult. Not impossible sure, but could be difficult. I think of it as scar tissue that can restrict movement and activity. I don’t know for others but I think for me there is a crying out of “look at me as a person” “see me as who I am” “care about my humanity” and if the craving is for that and you are only fed something else then eventually the proverbial stomach recoils at what is offered.

I will say though that jumping into this forum has perhaps sparked a small amount of seeking that I have not had in many, many years. I almost bought a Bible the other day but am torn between versions at the moment

Originally Posted by aron

First, an observation - noting the recent spate of ones posting here & on FB who have gone thru 2 years of FTT and rejected God afterward.

Instead, ask yourself a question: is the LR really that bad, and that mentally pervasive, that one must reject Christianity in toto to get the voice of Lee out of their head? Perhaps that's what they're telling us here, at least in part.)

Originally Posted by kappagamma

I would say that I was marginally in the CL until the FTT. It was there that most of the issues that I had came to the forefront and I, from that point, couldn't ignore it anymore and made my eventual (but quiet) exit. To me it was just another religion and, having been taught my whole life religion was bad... well, there you have it..

Originally Posted by RambleOn

I remember a few years ago, EM was speaking at an international conference, and he told this anecdote of a young couple who had decided to stop meeting with the LCs, and EM had asked them why, and they had told him, "because we aren't happy here." EM said his response was, "well how about what makes God happy?" Talk about presumptuous ...

Originally Posted by kappagamma

if you were one seeking power it gives you an automatic dominance. Can't remember who brought this to my attention but it should come as no surprise that after the "Me Too" movement began all of the sudden the little weekend conferences for sisters started up. Coincidence?

Originally Posted by aron

This strikes a nerve with me. The self-serving hypocrisy of lauding women as pioneers of the LR (Peace Wang, Dora Yu, ME Barber - many more) whilst simultaneously denying them any meaningful current role is glaring and needs to be called out. If "women are not allowed to teach" per Paul's dictum then why base "the three parts of man" on citations of Mary McDonough?

It is clear to me that WL systematically repressed the women (and his Brothers We followed suit) for mainly one reason - to eliminate half the potential rivals for power.

Originally Posted by Trapped

Can you mention some of the books? My level of separation was damagingly overemphasized and continues to affect me to this day. It helps to know and see what healthy ways are.

Trapped

Originally Posted by kappagamma

The suppression of women is not my thing and I'm not going to be complacent about it. I can't belong to an organization that silences and suppresses and demeans half (or more) of it's population..

Originally Posted by kappagamma

Really intrigued to know if there are others here who have been through the FTT and found it to remove a veil rather than adding one?

Originally Posted by kappagamma

Being raised this way is very different and the beliefs instilled from youth are ingrained into who we are - it's not as easy as just leaving a movement. You literally are removing threads from the fabric of your identity. I am not sure, for that reason, that this forum is particularly the right place for me or not but it's better than nothing.

Originally Posted by kappagamma

That being said I am very happy to have left this movement, even at some personal cost, and have some basic reasons:
1) Witness Lee died a long time ago. We were fed the line "standing on shoulders" year after year after year and I am highly skeptical that circa 1997 the "high peak" was reached and there is no growth/revelation left to attain. It has been 22 years. The world has changed, technology has changed, but God hasn't? I don't think so.

Originally Posted by kappagamma

3) Performance. I've known - and been myself- one who knew what to say and how to say it and when to say it in meetings of the LC and felt nothing on the inside. No thanks. I don't want to belong to an organization that says they are outside of religion and culture but very clearly has one all of its own. We all know it does. We all know what we are supposed to do and say or not do and not say. Fake. I don't like acting and didn't want to do it anymore.

Originally Posted by kappagamma

4) Suppression of identity. This ties to #3 some but I would say that I feel like a shell of the person I'm supposed to be because individuality was so suppressed. Is this sentiment shared by anyone else? I feel so damaged being raised in this environment.

Originally Posted by kappagamma

5) Purity culture. Unhealthy level of separation between male/female. I'm not saying that a church has should embrace immorality but there are healthy ways to teach interaction between the sexes and unhealthy ones. LC doesn't do it right and the impact it has had within the LC and other evangelical groups is real and documented. Really good books out there to read on this subject.

Originally Posted by kappagamma

...I'm still happy to have left and hope that the current wave of malcontent helps solidify thought & action in others the way it has for me. Even if no one else leaves the LC because of it, if it provides some peace for those of us who have left then that is a good thing, too.

Originally Posted by kappagamma

I have a lot of trouble with some of the accusations made against the LC - either because they are before my time or presented too vaguely to carry the necessary weight to resonate with me... or they don't match the sentiment that I have from being raised in this environment as opposed to those who chose it

That being said I am very happy to have left this movement, even at some personal cost,