| 08-29-2016 06:30 PM |
| HERn |
Re: I came into the church in 1975 in Boston
Quote:
Originally Posted by SimpleSister2
I too, came into the LC in July, 1975 in Boston. If you want to contact me, please do so. I would like to talk to you.
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Hi sister! If you are still meeting with the LC do you find this site to be safe?
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| 08-29-2016 05:38 PM |
| SimpleSister2 |
Re: I came into the church in 1975 in Boston
I too, came into the LC in July, 1975 in Boston. If you want to contact me, please do so. I would like to talk to you.
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| 08-20-2016 02:51 AM |
| DistantStar |
Re: I came into the church in 1975 in Boston
Quote:
Originally Posted by UntoHim
Yeah, our new friend DistantStar has brought up a lot of questions! If he doesn't have any objections, maybe we could just move everything over to his original thread.
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Sure, go ahead. I have no problems with keeping the forum organised and clear.
Thanks for the great discussions so far.
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| 08-19-2016 09:24 AM |
| Koinonia |
Re: I came into the church in 1975 in Boston
Quote:
Originally Posted by DistantStar
Interesting. Who are the current leaders of LSM and do you know where I can find out who the leaders are in my area?
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The top local leader in South Africa is John Hwang, in Pretoria. The two Southern California Local Church "coworkers" who oversee the African continent are Dick Taylor and James Lee.
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| 08-19-2016 07:37 AM |
| UntoHim |
Re: I came into the church in 1975 in Boston
Yeah, our new friend DistantStar has brought up a lot of questions! If he doesn't have any objections, maybe we could just move everything over to his original thread.
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| 08-19-2016 07:20 AM |
| Ohio |
Re: I came into the church in 1975 in Boston
UntoHim
This thread has long departed from the thread opener. Sorry.
Perhaps it can be moved to another.
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| 08-19-2016 07:14 AM |
| Ohio |
Re: I came into the church in 1975 in Boston
Quote:
Originally Posted by aron
Kangas is a good speaker but he can be exceedingly small-minded and bitter.
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TC told us back in '98-99 (after Lee's passing) that he complimented Ron on his teaching ministry, saying how the LC's needed it, and Ron basically scoffed at his compliment.
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| 08-19-2016 06:44 AM |
| aron |
Re: I came into the church in 1975 in Boston
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio
Benson Philips is the current president, but he is really not a good speaker.
Ron Kangas is their chief theologian.
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Kangas is a good speaker but he can be exceedingly small-minded and bitter.
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| 08-19-2016 06:41 AM |
| aron |
Re: I came into the church in 1975 in Boston
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio
Btw, we do have a poster from South Africa -- Friedel -- if he stops by again.
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Friedel was active in the early years (1970s) in S Africa and left in disgust with what happened to the movement. He wrote a very good history of his experiences with the Local Church. I paste the first post of his thread, here:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Friedel
What follows here is by way of introduction. There are other brothers far more qualified than I am, brothers who had been there, who could provide much needed detail. However, I assume only the role of reporter and I look to the Lord to make these posts of benefit to all and fair to all concerned.
SOME ASPECTS OF THE HISTORY OF THE LOCAL CHURCH MOVEMENT
Introduction
Before we can come to understand the history of Witness Lee, Living Stream Ministry and the Local Church Movement, I believe it is important to very briefly go back to the history of Watchman Nee. More specifically, we need to in a few words examine Nee’s relationship with three different people because they had a profound influence on his life and subsequently would have an effect on Lee and eventually on members of the Local Churches.
The three people I believe are critical to the history of Watchman Nee are Margaret Barber, Jessie Penn-Lewis and Theodore Austin-Sparks. (There are others but for the sake of this history, these three stand out.)
It is not necessary to examine Margaret Barber’s individual history but suffice to say that she was the most profound influence on Watchman Nee’s earlier life. She nurtured within him a love for the Lord, she encouraged him to learn the lessons of the cross and she instilled within him a desire to be absolute for the Lord. He really appreciated her and often confessed that he was greatly indebted to her for his spiritual growth.
Margaret Barber also introduced him to the writings of Jessie Penn-Lewis, albeit indirectly. She felt he was not yet ready for Penn-Lewis’ but he nevertheless ordered books directly from her. Penn-Lewis’ works must have had a major influence on Nee and along with the writings of Madame Guyon probably account for his “mystic” tendencies. War on the Saints, co-written by Penn-Lewis and Evan Roberts came out seven years after the Welsh Revival of 1904-1905.
The Welsh Revival lasted about nine months and a hundred thousand people were converted but it is reported that within six months there was very little evidence left of the revival. The remaining fruit was extremely limited.
Penn-Lewis and Roberts collaborated on the writing of War on the Saints and this book probably had the most enduring influence on Watchman Nee in preparation for his writing of The Spiritual Man. Nee also read all he could by Otto Stockmayer on the questions of soul and spirit and the triumph over satanic power. He simply did not have the life experience to write the book and much of it was theory. The first volume of The Spiritual Man appeared in 1926 and he completed it in 1928, when he was 26.
However, it was his friendship with Theodore Austin-Sparks which had the most profound effect on his life. For the first time he had met a brother with whom he could fellowship on an equal basis. As a matter of fact, he wrote Sparks upon his return from England: “You know, with the brethren here, because of their juniority, everything I say goes, despite their seeking the mind of the Lord. As a younger man, regarding you as a senior brother in the same testimony, I think I need this fellowship in a very real way.”
The fellowship between Austin-Sparks during 1938–1939 was mutually rewarding. It was also during this time that they extensively discussed the matter of locality and Watchman Nee translated Rethinking the Work (later published as The Normal Christian Church Life) and it appeared in London just before he left in 1939 under the title Concerning Our Missions. (Witness Lee in later years claimed that Austin-Sparks did not print it because he realized “it had something against his [Sparks’] work”. In fact, Austin-Sparks was intimately familiar with the content and his publishing company, The Witness and Testimony published the book. He just had the spiritual maturity to accommodate his younger brother, although he disagreed with his views on the ground of locality.)
Nee spoke in Shanghai on 11 June 1940:
“Our position is that, in any place, all who are the Lord’s are therefore ours because we ourselves are His, and only those who are not His are not of us. If Hardoon Road [the meeting place in Shanghai] ever comes to be a method of working in which concern for the local churches gives way to a mere concept of ‘localism’ then may God have mercy on us and smash it, for it will cease to have spiritual value. We must never forget that all in whom the Lord has liberty are ours in Him, and that in any place it is not even a spiritual local church but the Body of Christ we are called upon to build up.”
This is only by way of introduction. As we trace the years from 1940 onwards, when Witness Lee started to come to the fore more and more, it will become abundantly clear that Theodore Austin-Sparks was probably the greatest thorn in his flesh. It was also his inability in later years to work and fellowship with Austin-Sparks that caused a lot of damage within many localities.
Nee and TAS never saw each other again and had limited correspondence by mail after 1939. (For further reading on these sections, I heartily recommend the anthology of poems by Margaret E. Barber, entitled, Anchored to Infinity, but ignore the exclamation on the back cover: No Margaret Barber, No Watchman Nee!; also Against the Tide, the Story of Watchman Nee by Dr. Angus Kinnear, the son-in-law of Theodore Austin-Sparks, who had also met Nee and had known him in London. |
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| 08-19-2016 06:36 AM |
| aron |
Re: I came into the church in 1975 in Boston
Quote:
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Originally Posted by DistantStar
Is the LSM in charge of the Local Churches? I thought them merely a publication company.
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See the link to the post below. One of our members put out a kind of introductory thread for people who either don't know much about this group or only know about them through their interactions with them (which is the same thing,  ).
The short answer is, the LSM is very much in control of the Local Churches.
Exceptions: they tried to control Titus Chu and he and his regional churches (Great Lakes Area of USA) left the LSM affiliation.
Also a man named Dong Yu Lan was Witness Lee's main Lieutenant in charge of Brasil and he also wouldn't "lose face" and submit to the LSM (a Chinese cultural thing) and so he and "his" churches were also cut off from LSM. Both Brasil and GLA churches were "quarantined" about 2007.
Africa seems to be somewhat of a sphere of contention, with GLA, Brasil, and LSM operatives struggling to control various assemblies on that continent.
And in Mainland (Communist) China, Witness Lee started a big movement there after 1979 and at one point claimed millions of adherents, but it got really crazy with a lot of heretical off-shoots. LSM basically lost control of the groups that were supposedly following them, so they just washed their hands and said, "We have nothing to do with these people". They are called Shouters or Yellers or Criers in the mainland, if you want to google them. Some of the off-shoots kidnap people, extort money, have lifted up Witness Lee to be God incarnated. They don't call on the name of Jesus but on the name of "Lord Changshou" (Witness Lee's Chinese name). They say Jesus failed but Witness Lee succeeded. Etc. Very strange stuff.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unsure
This post seeks to be a starting point for newcomers to the forum. It contains a set of reading material general and comprehensive in nature to introduce them to the Local Church and to give them a window into understanding the problems and baggage that the group carries with it.
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Actually the Local Churches are a very good cautionary tale for any Christian. Don't isolate yourself, stay open to the larger body of Christian believers. "In the counsel of many is safety". And never think that you are somehow superior to others. Those who lift themselves up, or even their ideas, will be thrown down. Be humble and learn from everyone else. Witness Lee told us that he had not learned anything from anyone for 50 years! That was how "mature" or "perfected" he supposedly was.
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| 08-19-2016 06:30 AM |
| Ohio |
Re: I came into the church in 1975 in Boston
Quote:
Originally Posted by DistantStar
Interesting. Who are the current leaders of LSM and do you know where I can find out who the leaders are in my area?
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Benson Philips is the current president, but he is really not a good speaker.
Ron Kangas is their chief theologian.
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| 08-19-2016 06:17 AM |
| Ohio |
Re: I came into the church in 1975 in Boston
Quote:
Originally Posted by DistantStar
Interesting. Who are the current leaders of LSM and do you know where I can find out who the leaders are in my area?
Edit: I mean the current leaders of the Local Church.
Edit2: I've just read another post. Is the LSM in charge of the Local Churches? I thought them merely a publication company.
While in Christians on Campus there were two or three men who seemed to handle the processions, but I could never distinguish who the actual man on top (at least at campus) was. I mean, to whom do they answer?
Who is within the chain of command?
I've been wondering about this since I joined and now that I left.
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LSM is just a publishing company?
Talk about equivocating doublespeak!
One day they are "just" faithful servants publishing books, the next day they are undermining your eldership and training members how to file lawsuits.
The biggest farce is the word "local." One time Lee actually said that the local elders have the authority to select the time when the prayer meeting starts. I now question if they can do even that.
Btw, we do have a poster from South Africa -- Friedl -- if he stops by again.
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| 08-19-2016 04:40 AM |
| DistantStar |
Re: I came into the church in 1975 in Boston
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio
So much for ministries that preached oneness consrantly, and condemned other churches for being divided.
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Interesting. Who are the current leaders of LSM and do you know where I can find out who the leaders are in my area?
Edit: I mean the current leaders of the Local Church.
Edit2: I've just read another post. Is the LSM in charge of the Local Churches? I thought them merely a publication company.
While in Christians on Campus there were two or three men who seemed to handle the processions, but I could never distinguish who the actual man on top (at least at campus) was. I mean, to whom do they answer?
Who is within the chain of command?
I've been wondering about this since I joined and now that I left.
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| 08-19-2016 04:04 AM |
| Ohio |
Re: I came into the church in 1975 in Boston
Quote:
Originally Posted by DistantStar
Who is this Titus Chu? I've seen some of you mention him more than once.
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Like Witness Lee, TC was born in China, fled to Taiwan with his father, a general under Chiang Kai Shek, and then moved to the US. Agewise, TC is approx. 32 yrs younger than WL, and is still living in Cleveland, Ohio.
TC was an influential regional leader under WL for decades, and thus Cleveland, where I am from, became a regional base of operations for the movement. Since TC was Chinese and a gifted leader, he also had developed a strong following both regionally and internationally.
After WL died, a power struggle developed between the Blendeds in Anaheim, the headquarters of the movement and long term residence of WL, and Cleveland, TC's base of operations. It was widely accepted that TC individually had surpassed any of the Blendeds in ministry and fruitfulness. Lieutenants from both parties engaged in tract-writing wars for years, hoping to rally supporters. Eventually Anaheim prevailed, publically quarantined TC, and the movement divided.
Anaheim sent their operatives into certain GLA cities to work with local TC dissidents to file lawsuits for church assets. Those local battles got pretty ugly. Many GLA cities now have two churches, one loyal to TC and one loyal to the Blendeds. So much for ministries that preached oneness consrantly, and condemned other churches for being divided.
Didn't Someone once say, "with what judgment you judge, you also will be judged."
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| 08-19-2016 03:08 AM |
| DistantStar |
Re: I came into the church in 1975 in Boston
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio
Titus Chu Rebellion?
Titus Chu "rebelled" by writing and publishing books and permitting the young people to use electric guitars.
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Who is this Titus Chu? I've seen some of you mention him more than once.
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| 05-20-2016 10:27 PM |
| HERn |
Re: I came into the church in 1975 in Boston
Quote:
Originally Posted by Igzy
Hi P. Hayes,
If you are still experiencing guilt over the LC I would very much encourage you to get some professional Christian counseling. You'd be surprised how much it can help. God bless.
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That is so true! I have greatly benefited from such. There is no shame in seeking help.
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| 05-19-2016 09:39 AM |
| Cal |
Re: I came into the church in 1975 in Boston
Hi P. Hayes,
If you are still experiencing guilt over the LC I would very much encourage you to get some professional Christian counseling. You'd be surprised how much it can help. God bless.
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| 05-19-2016 09:28 AM |
| Ohio |
Re: I came into the church in 1975 in Boston
Quote:
Originally Posted by HERn
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How could I forget? 
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| 05-19-2016 08:54 AM |
| HERn |
Re: I came into the church in 1975 in Boston
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio
Titus Chu Rebellion?
Titus Chu "rebelled" by writing and publishing books and permitting the young people to use electric guitars.
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And drums! Oh my!  
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| 05-19-2016 08:08 AM |
| Ohio |
Re: I came into the church in 1975 in Boston
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered
Boston is very different today. It is now used as an extension of the Anaheim training program. Almost all of the original families are gone. Silas Wu, who served with Witness Lee from 1952 to 1997, left in 2007 over the Titus Chu Rebellion.
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Titus Chu Rebellion?
Titus Chu "rebelled" by writing and publishing books and permitting the young people to use electric guitars.
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| 05-19-2016 07:51 AM |
| aron |
Re: I came into the church in 1975 in Boston
Quote:
Originally Posted by P. Hayes64
I am currently a part of a small church in Fort Worth, but always feeling tremendous guilt that I am not attending the local church.
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"always feeling tremendous guilt" - this is the result of a ministry of judgment and condemnation. In order to escape this feeling, you must recognize it for what it is. Call it what it is, and it will no longer bother you.
It turns out that disobedient spirits love to hide out in religion! Who woulda thunk it? They bring you in, "love bomb" you if you go along, get you to unquestioningly agree with their characterization of everyone else as fallen, dark, natural etc and that you alone are "God's best", and then you have the hook in you. Whatever they want you'll do, or you'll feel the tremendous guilt and weight of the condemnation which you already agreed was justified.
But there is no condemnation in Christ Jesus. He was judged for our transgressions. Refuse those feelings of guilt for what they are. And be wise, and recognise the teachings that lie behind them. Once you begin to question those teachings, they will no longer have power over you.
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| 05-19-2016 03:51 AM |
| Unregistered |
Re: I came into the church in 1975 in Boston
Boston is very different today. It is now used as an extension of the Anaheim training program. Almost all of the original families are gone. Silas Wu, who served with Witness Lee from 1952 to 1997, left in 2007 over the Titus Chu Rebellion.
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| 05-18-2016 10:31 PM |
| Nell |
Re: I came into the church in 1975 in Boston
Quote:
Originally Posted by P. Hayes64
I came into the church in 1975 in Boston, then moved to Atlanta and was very involved in the recovery until 1984....then moved to the church in Dallas in 1989, attending in Plano, Texas. I have tried to figure out what happened to everyone I knew.....these folks were closer than family and they have all disappeared. I am currently a part of a small church in Fort Worth, but always feeling tremendous guilt that I am not attending the local church. I have tried contacting them, and they will not respond in any way. When I searched the local church on the net I found a made up history of the church in Plano, and some bizarre history about some saints that were very dear to me, from Atlanta, I had no idea. What happened. I downloaded some of the conference messages and music, and was shocked by the changes. This is very sad. I really don't have an explanation.......What Happened!
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Have you tried going to a meeting in Ft. Worth, Irving, Arlington, etc. in the D/FW metroplex to inquire about your friends? A lot has happened since 1989...when were you going to meetings last? Lee died in 1997 I think, so things really began to change then. This forum is an exhaustive account of "what happened". Do you have specific questions? If so, there is probably a topic that would help you. Most forum members are former LC members and write from that perspective.
I hope this will help to point you in the right direction to find the answers you need.
Nell
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| 05-18-2016 09:26 PM |
| Koinonia |
Re: I came into the church in 1975 in Boston
The LC in Plano is now one of the major Chinese hubs in the USA. Most likely, the group there now has little to do with the group you had there in the 1980s.
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| 05-18-2016 05:07 PM |
| UntoHim |
Re: I came into the church in 1975 in Boston
P. Hayes64,
Thanks for coming to post on LocalChurchDiscussions!
I think the majority of members on this forum came into the Local Church during the 1970s. Needless to say, it was probably the "hey day" decade for the Local Churches here in America.
When you get a chance, shoot an email to LocalChurchDiscussions@Gmail.Com requesting membership along with your desired UserName and we'll get you set up right away. When you're a registered member you will gain full access to the Private Messaging system on which you and other forum members will have a way to communicate "offline".
Thanks for your consideration.
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| 05-18-2016 03:21 PM |
| P. Hayes64 |
I came into the church in 1975 in Boston
I came into the church in 1975 in Boston, then moved to Atlanta and was very involved in the recovery until 1984....then moved to the church in Dallas in 1989, attending in Plano, Texas. I have tried to figure out what happened to everyone I knew.....these folks were closer than family and they have all disappeared. I am currently a part of a small church in Fort Worth, but always feeling tremendous guilt that I am not attending the local church. I have tried contacting them, and they will not respond in any way. When I searched the local church on the net I found a made up history of the church in Plano, and some bizarre history about some saints that were very dear to me, from Atlanta, I had no idea. What happened. I downloaded some of the conference messages and music, and was shocked by the changes. This is very sad. I really don't have an explanation.......What Happened!
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