Originally Posted by Unregistered

1.2 million copies of Bible among 316 million people is .3%, not .003%.

Originally Posted by Freedom

Also their website says they have now distributed 1.2 million Bibles(over a period of 10-15 years). The population of the US is estimated to be about 316 million. So .003% of the US has a RcV. Big deal, that isn't even a small dent. Whatever it is that they are trying to accomplish, it's not what their name implies. It's more like trying to find a few here and there to recruit to the LC.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Door-knocking began in Taipei back in ~1985, when Americans were highly respected, and almost held in awe, by the Taiwanese. Then the statistics were doctored to "prove" what a great success Lee had become in his "laboratory."

Originally Posted by Freedom

The last time I went door-knocking was probably about 6 or 7 years ago. I think it was in interesting experience, however, nothing good ever came of it. In general, most people aren't interested, and the people we ended up talking to wanted to debate. Since debating people is discouraged, it really felt like we were stuck in a situation where we were wasting our time.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Door-knocking began in Taipei back in ~1985, when Americans were highly respected, and almost held in awe, by the Taiwanese. Then the statistics were doctored to "prove" what a great success Lee had become in his "laboratory."

As with everything promoted by Lee and Company, either you were completely on board, or you were a dismal failure, and probably "harboring secret rebellions in your heart." Personally, I found my time valuable whenever I went door-to-door with others. It is actually spiritually healthy to be challenged like that in the Lord -- lose your face for the Gospel, open your mouth to speak for the Lord, meet new people, help others overcome their fears, etc. Had Lee made the program optional, it might have had more lasting value. Instead of being "THE" way, it should have only been "A" way to share the gospel.

Originally Posted by Freedom

So it seems bizarre that in spite of the strong aversion in the US of people coming to your door, that Lee would push door-knocking as the best way.

Originally Posted by Freedom

....it seems bizarre that in spite of the strong aversion in the US of people coming to your door, that Lee would push door-knocking as the best way.

Originally Posted by Ohio

That was the comment John So in Germany said when Door-Knocking was mandated. Knowing the German people, he commented that, "they will baptize you instead," possibly making reference to the drowning of Anabaptists back in the day.

John So's comments basically went "virule" (even before Al Gore invented the internet!) via the recovery grapevine, and Phillip Lee and Company immediately blackballed him for being negative to WL and the "New Way."

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Anyway. I am surprised anyone regardless of their 'product' goes door knocking anymore. I never open my door to anyone unless they call me before coming over...not in this day and age!

Originally Posted by Freedom

There you have it. WL says that he "researched the Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses practice of door-knocking. I find it interesting that despite his findings regarding its ineffectiveness, he went on to push it as the best way to gain people. In that second quote he says that "we have a much better way". I have to wonder to myself what way that is.

Last time I checked, whatever increase the LC has is not coming from the practice of door-knocking. I'm not even sure how many are still doing that. I know there is talk now and then about trying to get is started up again. I think though most realized that it's not worth the time. Of course, since WL said that this is the new way, there are always going to be saints who try to put these things into practice - and fail.

Secondly, WL said that only one in fifty doors opens up. Well if you ask me, that sounds like a complete and utter waste of time. No wonder people got discouraged when this was all going on.

Originally Posted by rayliotta

Didn't Witness Lee support the idea of door-knocking my pointing out that it works for the Jehovah's Witnesses (back in the 80's, I think)?

So it really wouldn't be surprising if they would borrow techniques from Mormon recruitment, as well.

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

WOW...that's exactly what the Mormons do. When their trainee 'elders' come to your door, they bring a kj bible. (A closer look has the LDS footnotes in it. It is NOT the same KJ found at your local Christian or non Mormon bookstore!)

The first scripture they quote is Amos:3:7. "When the Lord God decides to do something, he will first tell his servants, the prophets."

They use that scripture and 'the bible' to get you to read everything Joseph Smith wrote in the book of Mormon etc....

The LC uses the RcV so you can read Lee's works and to a lesser extent Nee's works. They use Watchman Nee's works to reel people in as well because a lot of Nee's books are sold in local bookstores from B&N to your local Christian bookstore. But you won't find the RcV or Lee's books other than in the LSM prison just like you won't find the Mormon's KJ bible or book of Mormon, plus outside their venue.

The LSM would NOT like it if an LCr would read the bible and Nee's works but leave out the RcV & Lee's works.

Originally Posted by aron

To them, the Bible is just a means to get people into "the rich ministry of WL and WN". It's no surprise that WL books are crowding hard upon the Bible distribution process.

Originally Posted by rayliotta

The whole rest of Christianity has nothing that even compares to Witness Lee's ministry, don'tcha know that?

Wouldn't surprise me if it was LSM's intention all along to eventually expand from the RcV to other publications. Of course, they would probably claim that Bibles for America is not "part of" LSM, because it's registered as its own not-for-profit. Just like DCP is not "part of" LSM. Why the need to play these shell games? Seriously.

Originally Posted by Freedom

I shouldn't be surprised. I guess it was inevitable. You would think though that they would be happy distributing just a NT Testament littered with WL footnotes. They couldn't resist the urge to also distribute ministry books. They must think that everyone in the U.S. has been waiting their whole lives to receive one of Lee's books...

Originally Posted by aron

To them, the Bible is just a means to get people into "the rich ministry of WL and WN". It's no surprise that WL books are crowding hard upon the Bible distribution process.

Originally Posted by aron

To them, the Bible is just a means to get people into "the rich ministry of WL and WN". It's no surprise that WL books are crowding hard upon the Bible distribution process.

Originally Posted by Freedom

I have noticed that BFA has started distributing WL books in addition to Bibles now. Maybe they should change their name to WLFA (Witness Lee for America). America needs God, not Witness Lee and his writings.

Originally Posted by rayliotta

Along these lines, I would add that when there is "increase," it is often with folks who have developed a personal connection with a few particular people in the church. Sometimes this lasts. Other times, they gradually, eventually, wisen up to the fact that there's a lot more going on under the surface.

Originally Posted by Freedom

To add to my previous post, it has been my experience that when we go out and preach the gospel, it has never been simply preaching the gospel. The goal is always firstly to recruit people to the LC and secondly to get them saved. Case and point: when I've done BFA in the past, the main goal was to get people to accept a free RcV NT. It was never to tell people about God or the Bible. It was to tell them about how their Bible at home (if they even had one) was insufficient and then needed RcV instead. Also things like inviting people to come to a campus Christian club meeting were more of a recruiting effort than a concern over whether people were saved or not.

Anyways my point in saying all this is that in the LC I was never equipped to tell people about the Lord or much less to lead them to the Lord. Maybe things were different in the past. If someone were to ask me a question "How do we know that God exists?", I wouldn't be able to tell them. If I had to defend the basic fundamentals of the Christian faith, I couldn't do that. About the only thing that I could do would be to defend LC teachings. About the only thing that I know how to do in regards to gaining an increase is try to recruit people to develop an interest in the ministry. That's why LSM/BB's/local elders shouldn't be surprised when there is so little increase. Even if there is little increase outside the LC as well. So the LC is dealing with the same issues affecting Christians as a whole, in addition to their self-inflicted issues.

Originally Posted by Terry

That's been my observation also. Whether you go to preach the gospel or to invite ones to receive the gospel, if 10 out of 10 receive salvation it's considered a lost cause if none of them are brought into the local church.

The focus is all wrong. Salvation should be first and foremost. Whether they come into the local church should not be a ulterior motive.

Originally Posted by Freedom

To add to my previous post, it has been my experience that when we go out and preach the gospel, it has never been simply preaching the gospel. The goal is always firstly to recruit people to the LC and secondly to get them saved.

Originally Posted by Dave

That is unfortunate. Back in the day on campuses I would just use the 3 circles, spirit, soul, body and explain that you can't know God without experience in the deepest part of your being. This is not rocket science. You can't defend the Christian faith because you move people into their mind....ask them to just simply open their heart...if they truly want to experience God....if not, no problem, and move on... talk to as many people as possible. It's like pyramid schemes, in a sense, which we have all been approached about...you talk to enough people and you will find some who will listen...for a variety of reasons...they are searching...they are open etc... Of course, if you can respond to their concerns that is helpful but for the most part it's sales like quite honestly. Take your time and consider your own disposition...there is no quota. Persistence and everyday efforts are essential.

Originally Posted by Dave

Take your time and consider your own disposition...there is no quota. Persistence and everyday efforts are essential.

Originally Posted by Freedom

To add to my previous post, it has been my experience that when we go out and preach the gospel, it has never been simply preaching the gospel. The goal is always firstly to recruit people to the LC and secondly to get them saved. Case and point: when I've done BFA in the past, the main goal was to get people to accept a free RcV NT. It was never to tell people about God or the Bible. It was to tell them about how their Bible at home (if they even had one) was insufficient and then needed RcV instead. Also things like inviting people to come to a campus Christian club meeting were more of a recruiting effort than a concern over whether people were saved or not.

Anyways my point in saying all this is that in the LC I was never equipped to tell people about the Lord or much less to lead them to the Lord. Maybe things were different in the past. If someone were to ask me a question "How do we know that God exists?", I wouldn't be able to tell them. If I had to defend the basic fundamentals of the Christian faith, I couldn't do that. About the only thing that I could do would be to defend LC teachings. About the only thing that I know how to do in regards to gaining an increase is try to recruit people to develop an interest in the ministry. That's why LSM/BB's/local elders shouldn't be surprised when there is so little increase. Even if there is little increase outside the LC as well. So the LC is dealing with the same issues affecting Christians as a whole, in addition to their self-inflicted issues.

Originally Posted by Dave

As I indicated in post #24 things have changed. We are not living in the 1980s whether we are in the LC or other groups or denominations. We need to keep things in perspective.

Originally Posted by Ohio

This is exactly right.

When the LC's were indeed "local" churches, it was easy to invite others. The more Lee brought all the LC's under his dominion, the harder it was to invite.

The answer was simple. Lee became our center, but Lee never died for me, and neither was I ever baptized into Lee's name. (cf I Cor 1.13)

I personally was being trained to "sell" the ministry of Witness Lee rather than the precious gospel of Jesus Christ. In fact, I can still distinctly remember sitting in an Anaheim Corinthians training and bearing the guilty burden that serious problems existed because I had not adequately presented and sold the ministry of Witness Lee to others, including my own friends and family. What a twisted delusion i was living in at that time.

Originally Posted by Terry

Today's LC is a far cry from the mid's 80's when it was easy to invite friends and classmates. Now, there's an unspoken understanding the LC meetings is not for everyone. It's no longer for general believers, but for ones who have a specific appreciation of the ministry.

Originally Posted by Terry

There's an adage from a former coworker at a prior employer, "it's better to blame than to be blamed".
In context of Freedom's post, the LC/LSM dont' want to take responsibility why there is lack of an increase. Today's LC is a far cry from the mid's 80's when it was easy to invite friends and classmates. Now, there's an unspoken understanding the LC meetings is not for everyone. It's no longer for general believers, but for ones who have a specific appreciation of the ministry. The scope of receiving is so much narrower than it used to be in prior decades.

Do elders and coworkers want to be addressed with real explanations why there isn't an increase? Lack of love and a lack of grace. They may ask, what are you talking about? Just allude to former elders and coworkers no longer welcome. Of course of you do, be prepared with the "negative" label.

Originally Posted by Freedom

Blaming the rank and file members for the shortcomings of the LC is a problem I seen again and again. Maybe it's the easiest way in which to place the blame.

Originally Posted by Freedom

I was in a meeting once where a brother judged a number of us for not having any "new ones". I don't think it's wrong to eagerly encourage everyone to invite friends to meetings, but passing judgement on people for not doing that is going much too far. Anyways, when I was at that meeting, I wanted to tell that brother that there is a reason I am not bringing friends to LC meetings. The reason being is that I didn't feel it's the right place for them, especially when there is such an attitude of judging others (which I have seen in many other situations as well). That is setting aside the numerous other issue I can think for not bringing someone to a LC meeting.

It occurred to me that there are probably many who are also in my shoes. All us "small potatoes" have our reasons for not inviting people to LC meetings, however, no one is going to vocally say why. So the LC has put itself in a position that instead of trying to determine why there is a lack of a normal increase, they instead blame members for the failings of the system that they created. It's easier to call saints "lukewarm" or "passive" rather than to address question of why that is the case.

Originally Posted by awareness

Yes. Back in 1980 I felt sorry for those I brought into the LC. I shouldn't have done that.

Originally Posted by aron

I think this is an accurate assessment. And to reinforce the point, it's an assessment that could have been made 30 years ago.

Originally Posted by Freedom

... the LC has put itself in a position that instead of trying to determine why there is a lack of a normal increase, they instead blame members for the failings of the system that they created. It's easier to call saints "lukewarm" or "passive" rather than to address question of why that is the case.

Originally Posted by aron

And this was conditioned in the Local Churches by the focus on "good building material", versus sinners who need transformation. And the idea of "making it", as if the system is perfect and given by God Himself, but our inability to make sufficient progress is due to our inherent failures, which apparently cannot be corrected.

How can any system change, if it blames the people within it for its own shorcomings? And how can any system thus constructed do anything but continually spit out traumatized souls who tried and failed to please the system's unreachable dictates?

Originally Posted by aron

Even though the system was ruinous for them, they couldn't conceive of any other system. They thought somehow their own imperfections were the fault.

Originally Posted by aron

Autocratic leadership, centralization of power under "God's man of the hour," special revelations, and proprietary salvation, or at least proprietary sanctification and reward... doesn't seem too far-fetched to make comparisons.

Originally Posted by Ohio

I understand your points however, Lisbon, but most former or current LC'ers would dismiss your comparisons because it is doubtful that many of the Popes or Joseph Smith were even saved.

Originally Posted by Lisbon

I left LC exactly two years ago and no desire to return except occasionally to go with my family and be with old friends. I was there 40 years and many are my friends but I strongly believe they are badly deceived. I feel little different about the RCC or the Mormons. WL became another Joseph Smith or Pope.

Lisbon

Originally Posted by Lisbon

In 1973 a responsible elder told of a story of a happening in China. A brother with the gift of healing was much used in the church and my understanding was there was no "funny" things associated with his gift. Sick people came to him and he prayed for them and they got healed. Sounds great and to my understanding it was great.

Then the "leading ones" felt to ask him to curb his gift which he obeyed.
Some time later there came a time when they wished for some help from the gifted brother and asked him to again function with his gift.

My question is did anybody hear if the healings reappeared?

Originally Posted by Freedom

Well, I haven't left the LC yet, but I constantly find myself thinking that if only such and such were different the LC would be such a better place. I always have to stop myself when I start thinking that way, because it's not really about that. Every church is going to have issues here and there. What I am realizing is that the "system" of the LC is wrong, and that can't be fixed.

For a number of years, leading up until now, I was in and out of LC meetings. I would always attend the Lord's Table meetings, but as for other meetings, I would go when I felt like it, and then I would stop going for awhile. I always felt that I needed to get back with the program and start going to more meetings, because I felt like I was "straying". I look back at this now and the situation is so clear, LC meetings never have met my needs, period. I have seen many saints in the LC here and there that are always in and out of the LC. They meet for 6 months, then you don't see them for a year. It's obvious that the LC doesn't meet their needs either, but something keeps them coming back. I've always found it to be a little peculiar that people don't try other places when they aren't content in the LC, but I think something about the LC conditions people to remain in this type of situation.

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Everyone who has left knows the feeling rayliotta ! What is even weirder (although I totally understand why it is) is that as much as most are happy to have left, there is a strange pull that wants 'us' to return. For example, I left in 1978. When I decided I wanted to return to my Creator and hang out with my spiritual family instead of all the unbelievers, I went to a few LC meetings wondering if that is where God wanted me to be. Really??? 30 some years later?? And I wondered if God wanted me to return ?

The woman who is married to an LCr met him after he had left and was attending another 'church'. Once they got married, he decides he wants to return to the LC...

go figure!

Originally Posted by Freedom

I know how you feel. I came to a certain point where I realized that nothing was as it seemed with regards to the LC. Instead of wanting to see new people come to the meetings, I hoped that they would have the sense run as far away as possible. I couldn't stand knowing that there was so much nonsense going on behind the scenes that couldn't be addressed. It made me start feeling uncomfortable, as if I was just a pawn who had to sit in a chair, put on a happy face and make the LC look like a nice happy place for people to be.

Originally Posted by rayliotta

Yes, some people who visit local church meetings are quite uncomfortable with them, to the point of being "creeped out." By the time I left, after growing up there, I was creeped out, too. Hard to describe that feeling.

Originally Posted by rayliotta

Yes, some people who visit local church meetings are quite uncomfortable with them, to the point of being "creeped out." By the time I left, after growing up there, I was creeped out, too. Hard to describe that feeling.

Originally Posted by Freedom

Something I have seen countless times is when a new contact is invited to a meeting. The view everyone in the LC has is that the meeting will be so "captivating" that the person will definitely be back. I have seen new people countless times where they have this look on their face like they want to run for the door, and more often than not, you don't see many come back a second time.