Interview Former Members

[UntoHim]

The Lord's Recovery Movement | A Chinese American Cult | Witness Lee (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FD1I7fqzfSw&t=195s)
~

[Unregistered]

I would like to interview a former member of the Lord's Recovery movement... My channel is youtube.com/kdubtru

I prefer someone who knows their theology very well.

[Zezima]

What’s your motive with this?

[Sons to Glory!]

I would like to interview a former member of the Lord's Recovery movement... My channel is youtube.com/kdubtru

I prefer someone who knows their theology very well.Good question regarding your motive - also, what's your measurement/threshold of someone knowing their "theology very well?"

[Ohio]

kdubtru has interviewed another former member, Jacob Howard, posted here:
The Lord's Recovery Movement | A Chinese American Cult | Witness Lee (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FD1I7fqzfSw&t=195s)

[UntoHim]

Hey Z and StG,
Why don't you go ahead and actually listen to the Jacob Howard interview, and I think your questions will be answered.
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[Nell]

Link doesn't work.

The link in post #1 works.

[Unregistered]

My motive is truth and love.

[Trapped]

I'm not saying you will get responses this way, but a few worries come to mind here:

1. Probably no one will want to say "I'll do it!" on this public forum. It's a known fact that DCP (the legal strongarm of the local church) actively monitors this forum. If you create a username on this forum, then that will make an avenue for anyone interested to contact you directly and privately through the private messaging system so they have less chance of being openly identified. Not saying anyone will respond, but that's the best chance you have for a response.

2. Probably most people are worried about being identified. Very few people on this forum have made their identities known and are most likely very hesitant to go on video due to the backlash and "negative" comments they will get in return. Do you have any ideas or options for either a 1) fuzzed-out video where the face cannot be identified, or for 2) voice-changing capabilities so they cannot be identified by voice either?

I watched the video you did with Jacob Howard, which was just great. As a suggestion, if you interview anyone else, it might be helpful for your interviewee and yourself to plan ahead a little bit about what questions or topics you will discuss. The complexity and breadth of the issues in the local church make it difficult to explain them in quick sound bites. Knowledge beforehand will make it easier for any interviewee to prepare and give clear, laid-out answers.

Thanks for doing what you're doing.

Trapped

[Drake]

My motive is truth and love.

Kris, I have a suggestion: Just go talk to them! Do primary research of the group and see and hear for yourself without filters. Jacob acknowledged these were genuine brothers and sisters so go hear them out.

In your interview with Jacob he talked about all the practices, beliefs, and doctrine that he didn't agree with, found peculiar, or didn't like. Yet, he offered few, if any, scriptural explanations.

For instance, Jacob criticized the "esoteric teachings" of Witness Lee quoting the verse "you have no need that anyone should teach you" to guard against "this kind of garbage" while completely ignoring the plain teaching of the Bible in Ephesians 4:11. Are we to ignore God's gifts to the Body because we have the Bible and no need for anyone to teach us when the Bible plainly states that God's gifts are for the perfecting of the saints? Even if Jacob, you, or anyone does not accept that Witness Lee was a gift to the Body to suggest that it is sufficient to have the Bible and the Spirit alone is a teaching that is unscriptural according to Ephesians 4:11.

(Kris, the irony is that you agreed with this criticism with at least two shelves of Bible helps and aids behind you!)

Inquiring directly with those genuine brothers and sisters in local churches about these matters would benefit your own understanding and that of your listeners. Not just the point of view of those who left.

That would be my suggestion.

Drake

[Trapped]

Kris, I have a suggestion: Just go talk to them! Do primary research of the group and see and hear for yourself without filters. Jacob acknowledged these were genuine brothers and sisters so go hear them out.

This presumes people currently in the group speak without filters and people formerly in the group speak with filters.

The people who have left are the only ones you can get to speak without filters.


In your interview with Jacob he talked about all the practices, beliefs, and doctrine that he didn't agree with, found peculiar, or didn't like. Yet, he offered few, if any, scriptural explanations.

This was an initial 45 minute interview with general descriptions. The first one of it's kind about the local church, it seems to me. The format is not an easy one for anyone, particularly for someone who has been messed up to believe they are "of death" or "poisonous" for speaking up about the serious problems in the local church. The lack of "scriptural explanations" sure doesn't mean there aren't any in an introductory type episode.


For instance, Jacob criticized the "esoteric teachings" of Witness Lee quoting the verse "you have no need that anyone should teach you" to guard against "this kind of garbage" while completely ignoring the plain teaching of the Bible in Ephesians 4:11. Are we to ignore God's gifts to the Body because we have the Bible and no need for anyone to teach us when the Bible plainly states that God's gifts are for the perfecting of the saints? Even if Jacob, you, or anyone does not accept that Witness Lee was a gift to the Body to suggest that it is sufficient to have the Bible and the Spirit alone is a teaching that is unscriptural according to Ephesians 4:11.

(Kris, the irony is that you agreed with this criticism with at least two shelves of Bible helps and aids behind you!)

Kdubtru, notice Drake's tactic - to kindly open the door while also putting you down. The very simple, scriptural answer to Drake's scoffing and accusation is that even with teachers as gifts to the Body, each of us is responsible to discern those teachers.

We are to work out our OWN salvation with fear and trembling.

We are to be Bereans and examine the Scriptures just like they vetted Paul's teachings.

We are to be persuaded by those teaching, not accept any of them blindly.

For God to give teachers as gifts to the Body does not contradict that we have no need that any man teach us. Teachers are servants to the believers just like everyone else, not lords. Each member has to sobermindedly hear the teachers and do their own work to determine whether those teachers are false or not.


Inquiring directly with those genuine brothers and sisters in local churches about these matters would benefit your own understanding and that of your listeners. Not just the point of view of those who left.

That would be my suggestion.

Drake

The ones inside the local churches get all the freedom in the world to squash anyone who is no longer inside. Step back and allow the wounded sheep who have left to have a voice.

Kdubtru, my tone towards Drake doesn't mean I think that interviews of current members is a bad idea. I agree that hearing only one side of the story is not good journalism (or whatever you want to call it). The issue is, as is common in cults, you won't get the truth from insiders, they will sidestep and twist and pretend so they don't look bad. We've seen it. Many of us did it ourselves when we were in it. Will you get the truth about the Moonie cult from someone inside it? Nope.

The local church is a group that desperately tries to make the outside of its cup squeaky clean so no one sees the cup is filled with stagnant swamp water. They do a great job of it. They deceive many. They are wordsmith pros and some of the leaders actually know that they use mind control techniques inside its walls, and yet laugh and do nothing about it.

My username here was "Trapped" for a reason. That's how so, so many members feel inside it and yet, because of those mind control techniques, they are.....trapped.

Trapped

[Ohio]

The local church is a group that desperately tries to make the outside of its cup squeaky clean so no one sees the cup is filled with stagnant swamp water. They do a great job of it. They deceive many. They are wordsmith pros and some of the leaders actually know that they use mind control techniques inside its walls, and yet laugh and do nothing about it.

A swamp indeed, like the Pharisees of old.

If Kdubtru really wants to understand Recovery leadership, he needs to study how WL treated his closest co-workers when they tried to clean house and protect their saints from the like of his own degenerate sons Timothy and Philip. As a preface to the story, read the opening of I Samuel about old Eli and his sons, then study John Ingalls account:
Speaking the Truth in Love by John Ingalls (http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vBulletin/showthread.php?t=411)

What WL did to John Ingalls and many others is a longstanding pattern of corruption in the so-called Recovery, and once it gets exposed, they go into attack mode to smear the reputations of whistle-blowers whose heart only long to protect the church of God.

The legal wordsmiths at LSM have a verse to justify every thing they do. Yet how do they explain away I Corinthians 6 after they have sued so many Christians over the years, and even a decade ago their own church brothers in the Midwest LC's for all their financial assets? Talk about hypocrisy, how do they claim to have "no name" and then file lawsuits to obtain this very name?

Kdubtru unless you dig below the surface, you will forever be playing the same word games and lost in the same verse wars that so many others have been swamp-stuck in.

[Zezima]

Kdubtru unless you dig below the surface, you will forever be playing the same word games and lost in the same verse wars that so many others have been swamp-stuck in.


They use acts 25 to justify this, when Paul appeals to Caesar as his last resort. At least, that’s what they told us in the FTTA. They gave an entire Monday meeting to explaining dcp and justifying it.

[Ohio]

They use acts 25 to justify this, when Paul appeals to Caesar as his last resort. At least, that’s what they told us in the FTTA. They gave an entire Monday meeting to explaining dcp and justifying it.
Yeah, I heard the same BS explanation 43 years ago.

[Drake]

Kdubtru, notice Drake's tactic - to kindly open the door while also putting you down. The very simple, scriptural answer to Drake's scoffing and accusation is that even with teachers as gifts to the Body, each of us is responsible to discern those teachers.


Trapped, thanks for bringing that up. Happy to clarify in case there is a misunderstanding.

Kris, there is no putting you down, scoffing, or accusation as Trapped claims. Your stated motives are truth and love and I accept that. Please accept my critique also in the spirit of sincerity, truth, and love in which it was delivered... one brother to another.

I do not believe you stated a belief while conscious of the shelves of material behind you contradicting the statement. If I thought that I would have characterized that as "hypocrisy".... not "irony". There could be many reasons for your agreement with what your guest said... you meant it differently, or you were being courteous to the guest, etc. The way I heard it is that you have the Bible and the Spirit and so no one need teach you but of course few Christians I have ever met believe or practice that. I know of no one in this forum who believes that either... they all prefer someone or somebody's teaching .... as do I. Hope that clarifies.

Some more considerations in your quest ... Jacob mentioned the Creation Research Institute's "We Were Wrong". Read it and decide for yourself. For clarity reach out to Hank.

WeWereWrong.PDF (http://www.equip.org/PDF/EnglishOpt.pdf)

Also, suggest reading responses to various dialogues with apologetics ministries and theologians here:

Contendingorthefaith.org/en/dialogues-with-apologetics-ministries-and-theologians (https://contendingforthefaith.org/en/dialogues-with-apologetics-ministries-and-theologians/)

Mind you Kris, I'm not asking you to accept these explanations, just suggesting you should have a solid basis from which to make informed criticisms if that is the path you wish to follow. If you'd like to engage directly in a dialogue in a particular topic in this forum then I'm happy to provide my point of view as a current member.

Drake

[UntoHim]

The way I heard it is that you have the Bible and the Spirit and so no one need teach you but of course few Christians I have ever met believe or practice that. I know of no one in this forum who believes that either... they all prefer someone or somebody's teaching .... as do I.

Drake,
I fixed the broken links to the LSM references you posted. What I can't fix is the broken logic that you are employing here on this thread:)

Your glaring omission of the reality in the Local Church would be amusing if it weren't so intentional on your part. So members in the Local Church simply "prefer" Witness Lee? The word "prefer" implies that there is a choice. Please tell us of all the choices they get. What if a brother or sister prefers John MacArthur over Witness Lee. What if they decide that something they read or heard on Grace To You was a more enlightening/biblical than the 35-60 year old Lee teachings in The Holy Word for Morning Revival. What if they PREFER to share those teachings in the home meeting or Lord's Day meeting? Good luck with that.
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[Ohio]

Drake,
Your glaring omission of the reality in the Local Church would be amusing if it weren't so intentional on your part. So members in the Local Church simply "prefer" Witness Lee? The word "prefer" implies that there is a choice. Please tell us of all the choices they get. What if a brother or sister prefers John MacArthur over Witness Lee. What if they decide that something they read or heard on Grace To You was a more enlightening/biblical than the 35-60 year old teachings in The Holy Word for Morning Revival. What if they PREFER to share those teachings in the home meeting or Lord's Day meeting? Good luck with that.
-
I'm old enough to know that these "What If's" that UntoHim suggested are not merely hypotheticals, but a regular part of LC recorded history.

For example, back in the 2000's a huge number of Midwest LC's were excommunicated, or in their vernacular "quarantined," simply because they preferred the ministry of Brother Titus Chu in Cleveland over the Blendeds Bishops in Anaheim. Titus Chu had ministered to them for half a century without any of the scandals that regularly plagued Living Stream Ministry. Never once was TC accused of teaching heresy, No, his "sin" was being a little "different and independent," teaching from the Bible directly rather than just regurgitating "leftovers" from Anaheim trainings.

What these false brothers from Anaheim then did to these unsuspecting Midwest churches was absolutely deplorable. LSM launched a massive smear campaign, both overtly and covertly, to libel and slander those who refused to subjugate to their whims. It was not sufficient for these Midwest LC's to just appreciate the ministry of Witness Lee. No, they must only prefer and love the ministry of Witness Lee, and his Blended successors. Witness Lee must be the first love, and the only love, of every sanctioned Local Church. Ones like Drake can talk about his extensive library at home, but he dares not mention them in the meetings! Or else!

[Nell]

...

WeWereWrong.PDF (http://www.equip.org/PDF/EnglishOpt.pdf)

Also, suggest reading responses to various dialogues with apologetics ministries and theologians here:

Contendingorthefaith.org/en/dialogues-with-apologetics-ministries-and-theologians (https://contendingforthefaith.org/en/dialogues-with-apologetics-ministries-and-theologians/)

Mind you Kris, I'm not asking you to accept these explanations, just suggesting you should have a solid basis from which to make informed criticisms if that is the path you wish to follow. If you'd like to engage directly in a dialogue in a particular topic in this forum then I'm happy to provide my point of view as a current member.

Drake

Drake,

You forgot to mention the response to the CRI article "We Were Wrong". This should be added to any solid basis that may exist: "Can the Local Church Leadership Say, 'We Were Wrong'?" (attached to this post) which was written by a former member.

Additionally, I have included a link to, perhaps the inspiration for the "We Were Wrong" article: an open letter (http://www.open-letter.org/). "More than 70 evangelical Christian scholars and ministry leaders from seven nations have signed an unprecedented open letter to the leadership of the 'local churches' and Living Stream Ministry."

"This letter is a public appeal to disavow and withdraw controversial statements made by their founder, Witness Lee, on the doctrine of God and the doctrine of man. The letter also asks the “local churches” and Living Stream to renounce statements made by Lee that denigrate evangelical Christian denominations and organizations. Finally, the letter appeals to the leadership of the “local churches” and Living Stream to discontinue their use of lawsuits and threatened litigation against Christian individuals and organizations to answer criticisms or resolve disputes."

It seems that the 44 page article by the late Elliot Miller is a response to the above referenced and linked Open Letter.

A quote from the author (Jane Anderson) of "Can the Local Church Say "We Were Wrong":

"I found it impossible to believe that CRI‘s ―exhaustive six-year [2003–2009] analysis of the Local Churches and Living Stream Ministry (Hanegraaff, ―Is‖) could culminate in a report presentation that was nothing more than an answer to a letter."

During his six-year analysis of the Local Church, there is no indication that Mr. Miller interviewed a single former member.

Nell

[Drake]

Drake,
I fixed the broken links to the LSM references you posted. What I can't fix is the broken logic that you are employing here on this thread:)

Your glaring omission of the reality in the Local Church would be amusing if it weren't so intentional on your part. So members in the Local Church simply "prefer" Witness Lee? The word "prefer" implies that there is a choice. Please tell us of all the choices they get. What if a brother or sister prefers John MacArthur over Witness Lee. What if they decide that something they read or heard on Grace To You was a more enlightening/biblical than the 35-60 year old Lee teachings in The Holy Word for Morning Revival. What if they PREFER to share those teachings in the home meeting or Lord's Day meeting? Good luck with that.
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UntoHim,

thanks for fixing the links... now the unbroken logic defined below::)

The original point was that few christians only use the Bible and the Spirit and nothing else. Not you, not Kris, not Trapped, not Jacob and not I. Few have original thought on major teachings and in our daily walk the Lord is faithful to guide us through His Word and by His Spirit but this does not negate the functioning of the gifts God has provided His Body for its building up.

When it comes to choice for what one reads, what aids and helps they use, that is what I mean by preference. In my 40+ years in the Lord's Recovery no one ever suggested what I should not read, or what my library should or should not contain. By choice, my library contains over 50 authors including the Collected Works of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee ... and I could not be more delighted for that rich treasury. I can't speak for anyone else's experience, its just that I have never encountered someone dictating what I can and cannot read.

Now sharing in the home meetings or and particularly in the church meetings is a different matter as follows:

First, the best experience of home meetings is one that has many questions and answers. Almost any topic can and is discussed because its a more intimate fellowship where a mutual shepherding takes place... or should be.

However, concerning the Lord's Day meeting... and by that I assume you mean the prophesying part of that meeting and not the Lord's Table, the sharing is for the building up the church.... many to many... each one has (I Cor 14:26). By contrast, most of the meetings in Catholicism or the Denominations do not even provide an opportunity to share with the whole congregation... its one to many... clergy-laity.

In the Lords' Recovery this particular prophesying meeting it is not a free-for-all... someone could not stand up and question the deity of the Lord Jesus' or they would be asked to sit down or leave. So there is some regulation about what is shared in that meeting. Someone could share something from MacArthur, Osteen, C.S, Lewis, etc.... one man stood up and read secular poetry and no one escorted him out the door. People are where they are and there is room.

But, let's come to what I think is the main point of your objection. You object to using the teachings of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee as the material for the prophesying meeting. Yes, we do. The reason is straightforward, though you may disagree with it. It is according to a scriptural vision of the building up the Body of Christ, through the experience of Christ as the great I AM supplying life, light, and everything to us the believers as His many sons, so that we may grow and mature in divine life, to join with Him to defeat His enemy in this age as His Warrior Bride, to build up the Body of Christ and consummate this age to bring Him back to establish His kingdom on earth for 1000 years.

Therefore, purpose of the prophesying meeting with this vision as the context is to release the grace the Lord has supplied to us individually throughout the week so that others may receive and benefit from that grace and it becomes "grace upon grace". The release of the spirit brings in the mutual fellowship in life of the Body of Christ, which then is built up to accomplish His eternal purpose. This is the focus on the ministry we follow and that is why other ministries may be shared but will not be promoted.

I'll close this note with this.... we believe in the mutuality of the prophesying meeting even to the extent that if someone is sharing from any ministry, including Brother Lee or Brother Nee, and go on for more than a few minutes they may be asked to end their speaking and let someone else speak.

Drake

[Ohio]

However, concerning the Lord's Day meeting... and by that I assume you mean the prophesying part of that meeting and not the Lord's Table, the sharing is for the building up the church.... many to many... each one has (I Cor 14:26). By contrast, most of the meetings in Catholicism or the Denominations do not even provide an opportunity to share with the whole congregation... its one to many... clergy-laity.

Drake, when someone posts about "returning to the word of God" instead of relying solely on Lee's books, then you protest vehemently about rejecting the gifts to the body, using Ephesians 4. But when the Pastor / Shepherd / Elder gives a message to the congregation, then you forget about these "God-given gifts" and complain about "each one has" and the dreaded "clergy-laity" system.

Which is it? Should not church leaders speak to the congregation? Did not Paul give regular messages to the churches? Did not the Head of the body give gifts to the church of God? Why do you condemn others for what the Blendeds regularly do? Oh, I get it. Change the name of the gathering from a "church meeting" to a "training meeting" and the Recovery gets to break all the rules by which they judge everyone else. So convenient. Oh, those word games again!

Oh the irony. Each one shows up and repeats some little blurb from a WL-re-gurgitated book spoken by one of the Blendeds, and voila it's called "prophesying." Is this not the "speaking of one man?" Ask me, and I would always prefer an anointed message by a Shepherd of God than the dead letters of a dead minister rehashed by everyone. I've been to both.

Oh, sorry, I did it again. Doesn't every Shepherd / Teacher / Pastor every week speak from the words of the dead apostles? Yes, but there's a huge difference. The Apostles' teachings are the word of God. Lee's are not.

[Trapped]

But, let's come to what I think is the main point of your objection. You object to using the teachings of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee as the material for the prophesying meeting. Yes, we do. The reason is straightforward, though you may disagree with it. It is according to a scriptural vision of the building up the Body of Christ, through the experience of Christ as the great I AM supplying life, light, and everything to us the believers as His many sons, so that we may grow and mature in divine life, to join with Him to defeat His enemy in this age as His Warrior Bride, to build up the Body of Christ and consummate this age to bring Him back to establish His kingdom on earth for 1000 years.

Therefore, purpose of the prophesying meeting with this vision as the context is to release the grace the Lord has supplied to us individually throughout the week so that others may receive and benefit from that grace and it becomes "grace upon grace". The release of the spirit brings in the mutual fellowship in life of the Body of Christ, which then is built up to accomplish His eternal purpose. This is the focus on the ministry we follow and that is why other ministries may be shared but will not be promoted.

Drake

"The reason we use the teachings of Nee and Lee alone is [insert long string of LSM-style spiritual sounding lingo and snippets of biblical phrases that wows people but doesn't mean much of anything in the context and certainly doesn't give the real reason why they use Nee and Lee alone]."

[Trapped]

Drake, when someone posts about "returning to the word of God" instead of relying solely on Lee's books, then you protest vehemently about rejecting the gifts to the body, using Ephesians 4. But when the Pastor / Shepherd / Elder gives a message to the congregation, then you forget about these "God-given gifts" and complain about "each one has" and the dreaded "clergy-laity" system.

Which is it? Should not church leaders speak to the congregation? Did not Paul give regular messages to the churches? Did not the Head of the body give gifts to the church of God? Why do you condemn others for what the Blendeds regularly do? Oh, I get it. Change the name of the gathering from a "church meeting" to a "training meeting" and the Recovery gets to break all the rules by which they judge everyone else. So convenient. Oh, those word games again!

Oh the irony. Each one shows up and repeats some little blurb from a WL-re-gurgitated book spoken by one of the Blendeds, and voila it's called "prophesying." Is this not the "speaking of one man?" Ask me, and I would always prefer an anointed message by a Shepherd of God than the dead letters of a dead minister rehashed by everyone. I've been to both.

Oh, sorry, I did it again. Doesn't every Shepherd / Teacher / Pastor every week speak from the words of the dead apostles? Yes, but there's a huge difference. The Apostles' teachings are the word of God. Lee's are not.


Nailed it.

[Unregistered]

Anyone who opposes the Lord's recovery will suffer a great loss for destroying God's move on earth!

[Ohio]

Anyone who opposes the Lord's recovery will suffer a great loss for destroying God's move on earth!
That's almost exactly what the Inquisitors and Papal soldiers said to the martyrs for centuries as they enacted their tortures, rapes, and murders. The worst were the zealous Dominicans and Jesuits.

[Nell]

Anyone who opposes the Lord's recovery will suffer a great loss for destroying God's move on earth!

Un,

1 Thess. 5:21 Prove (test) all things; hold fast that which is good.

We are commanded to test all things. The works and words of men, including Witness Lee, should be tested. Christ, on the way to the cross, was tested to the sweating of blood…he passed every test. If “the recovery” is everything you folks claim, then you have nothing to worry about. It cannot be destroyed.

If “the recovery” is truly “the Lord’s”, neither heaven nor hell can destroy “it”. God’s move on the earth cannot and will not be destroyed by the words of men or by the testing by men . BUT….If “God’s move” gets “destroyed”, it wasn’t God’s move, but a concoction of man…that is, a concoction of Witness Lee.

Anything that can be shaken, should be shaken. So, how did you all test Witness Lee before you became his followers?

Be at peace. Have faith in God. He is in control…

Nell

[Zezima]

Anyone who opposes the Lord's recovery will suffer a great loss for destroying God's move on earth!

This is the go to response people in the LR have when faced with facts that go against the beliefs they have been conditioned to believe. The ruler of this age blinds people, and all we can do is pray for the Lord to uncover them.

When Jesus was on the cross, he prayed to the father for the forgiveness of those who opposed him. When the LR is on the cross it’s attacks, litigates, and calls it’s opposers the spawn of Satan. The fruit speaks for itself.

[UntoHim]

LCD Member Jacob Howard to be Interviewed by Midwest Christian Outreach
Hey Fellow Former Members - you might want to put this on your calendar! Jacob Howard will be interviewed live by some knowledgeable & caring cult researchers next Tuesday. If you would care to participate via chat, maybe jot down some questions to ask.
Don Veinot is one of the 70 leaders who signed the January 2007 Open Letter To LSM & the Local Churches [ http://www.open-letter.org/ ]. Warning: the humor on the show can be massively corny (in my opinion) but it does provide much needed relief from the otherwise serious subject matter.
The MCOI Newsletter that came out today mentioned this event as follows:
Join us next Tuesday, November 2, 2021, at Noon Central time. Jacob Howard joins us to look at the late Witness Lee's group, "The Lord’s Recovery Movement." As always, we will take questions in the chat area. The live streams are available on the MCOI YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/MidwestoutreachOrg/
or our Facebook page, Twitch or Clouthub. We are working on other streaming locations and will let you know as we progress.
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[UntoHim]

The full interview is now posted online:

The full interview is now posted online here. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JU7mR6dHT4M)
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[Zezima]

Watched it, interesting overview but nothing new to existing Ex-LR folks. It’s cool to see people who weren’t involved with the LR hear about the LR. They are always, like wow that’s obviously a sketchy group.. but when you’re in it, it’s different.

[Trapped]

Watched it, interesting overview but nothing new to existing Ex-LR folks. It’s cool to see people who weren’t involved with the LR hear about the LR. They are always, like wow that’s obviously a sketchy group.. but when you’re in it, it’s different.

I agree, interesting overview but not a lot of substance for anyone with doubts to really latch on to. That's not meant to be a knock on the interview; it's just the reality of a "introduction to..." type initial video. The LC is a group that almost demands follow-up videos to really get into helpful details.

Interesting to hear Don Veinot relay the brief story of Jim Moran's site - the family gave them permission to use any of Jim's stuff, and the next day contacted them again and said they can't use the stuff any more and if they do then LSM "will sue you".

Great Christian testimony, LSM. :rollingeyesfrown:

I liked what Ron Henzel said after reading a short excerpt from shepherdingwords.com's article on "Being Safeguarded by the Discernment in the Body" where the LC leadership warned against reading anything that "attacks" the local church or WL's ministry:

"Basically if you think your congregation is too infantile or just utterly lacking in discernment or you don't trust them to read it and if they have questions bring them to you so you can use that as an opportunity to clarify, I guess being a spiritual tyrant is an okay thing, you know, censorship....."

There you go, co-workers - an outsider reads a couple paragraphs of your "shepherding words", and he rightfully and immediately discerns what's really going on - a spiritual tyranny on your part!

Trapped

[Robert]

From Ohio;
"Kdubtru unless you dig below the surface, you will forever be playing the same word games and lost in the same verse wars that so many others have been swamp-stuck in."

I think these words fits to Jacob as well. The only difference I see is in amount of knowledge about LC.
As for me there is something missing in Jacob. Some taste.
In both interviews it was just an exchange of knowledge which I appreciate of course.
But! I wish to see or hear testimonies of saints who are really in love in our Lord Jesus. May be that it actually what was missing for me.
"Haha, heh-heh!" To much of laughing from flesh as for me.
Only about structure, heresies and faults.
Not so much about people, love.
Remember, we deal with false doctrines but not rejecting saints!

[Ohio]

From Ohio;
"Kdubtru unless you dig below the surface, you will forever be playing the same word games and lost in the same verse wars that so many others have been swamp-stuck in."

I think these words fits to Jacob as well. The only difference I see is in amount of knowledge about LC.
As for me there is something missing in Jacob. Some taste.
In both interviews it was just an exchange of knowledge which I appreciate of course.
But! I wish to see or hear testimonies of saints who are really in love in our Lord Jesus. May be that it actually what was missing for me.
"Haha, heh-heh!" To much of laughing from flesh as for me.
Only about structure, heresies and faults.
Not so much about people, love.
Remember, we deal with false doctrines but not rejecting saints!
Very good points.

Which is why I prefer to address bad behaviors by Recovery leaders than merely doctrines. Many of God's children have been hurt. That is the primary purpose of this forum.

But, for many others, they feel rotten practices are the result of errant teachings, so they are convinced the teachings must be addressed first. That's what Kdubtru and Jacob are discussing.

[Robert]

"Ohio;But, for many others, they feel rotten practices are the result of errant teachings, so they are convinced the teachings must be addressed first. That's what Kdubtru and Jacob are discussing."

Me:"In both interviews it was just an exchange of knowledge which I appreciate of course."
"But! I wish to see or hear testimonies of saints who are really in love in our Lord Jesus. May be that is actually what was missing for me.
"Haha, heh-heh!" To much of laughing from flesh as for me."

[ProtectYourRecovery]

The Lord's Recovery Movement | A Chinese American Cult | Witness Lee (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FD1I7fqzfSw&t=195s)

~

It's really funny that Jacob went to talk trash on the Lord's recovery, but when he is being challenged at the comments by current members. He got schooled!

[Trapped]

~

It's really funny that Jacob went to talk trash on the Lord's recovery, but when he is being challenged at the comments by current members. He got schooled!

Right now what I see from you is a claim without support. Can you give some examples?

Maybe we can help Jacob out. :cool:

Trapped