Love the Lord and coming to the full knowledge of the truth!

[Unregistered]

I have met in the local churches for 38 years now, and most of the years I have been faithful to the Lord. The study of the Bible surpasses other Christian groups that I have visited. The elders that I have met have been honest and humble and realize that the church is not their possession, but that the should lead as patterns for the flock. The subjective experience of the cross and dealing with the flesh is unheard of in most Christian churches, and I find that many places are too shallow for my desired pursuit of spirituality and building up of the Body of Christ. I am at home in the local church life and encourage others to be open to meet, take the cross, seek to know His resurrection power and live for His kingdom. The coming millennial kingdom is a reward to faithful believers and I find that the best place for me to run the race and earn this prize is in the local churches. I thank the Lord for bringing me to the local church life in 1983! I am forever home!

[Nell]

I have met in the local churches for 38 years now, and most of the years I have been faithful to the Lord. The study of the Bible surpasses other Christian groups that I have visited. The elders that I have met have been honest and humble and realize that the church is not their possession, but that the should lead as patterns for the flock. The subjective experience of the cross and dealing with the flesh is unheard of in most Christian churches, and I find that many places are too shallow for my desired pursuit of spirituality and building up of the Body of Christ. I am at home in the local church life and encourage others to be open to meet, take the cross, seek to know His resurrection power and live for His kingdom. The coming millennial kingdom is a reward to faithful believers and I find that the best place for me to run the race and earn this prize is in the local churches. I thank the Lord for bringing me to the local church life in 1983! I am forever home!

You forgot something: encourage people to 1) follow the Lord's leading, 2) obey the words of the Bible, and the 3) leading of the Holy Spirit. Some challenging scripture:

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Thanks for posting--
Nell

[Unregistered]

Thanks Nell, I do like your addition to my post. Amen.

[Doer]

Thank you for your testimony and your experience in the LR. I hope you don't mind if I respond.

1. Witness Lee exposition of scripture being the best available- entirely your opinion.

2. Dealing with the flesh is talked about and emphasized throughout much of Christianity. As for subjective experience of the cross? That is one of those empty phrases/sayings the coworkers say in their messages, it has little substance and they themselves wont and cant define it. So please tell me if you can, explain the "subjective experience of the cross", if you can. My time in the lords recovery, taking the cross was just a cop out that resulted in in neglecting scripture for the sake of the agenda of the LR.

3. As for most churches being shallow and unfulfilling, this is definitely true. A lot of churches out there are pretty lackluster and I came into the LR thinking this place was the place to be. Then just like the other churches, they neglect scripture to suit their culture/practices (to a horrifying extent as many pointed out on this forum). The spiritual experience overall to me was just goofy behavior engaging in some drunken like stupor that supposedly was to the way to contact God. The vain repetition is just ungodly to begin with. The lord clearly says it is heathen behavior, just mindless babbling/chanting thinking I will be heard for my much speaking. I want you to put a timer on your phone for 10 minutes, and have your child or grandchild just repeatedly moan, chant, babble your name constantly for the whole duration and just get some slight experience of just how heathen like that practice is.

4. Open to meet? The LR needs a lot of improvement on that aspect.

5. Seek to know his resurrection and live for his Kingdom? In my experience, all I was doing in the LR was being a tool to preserve a diabolical ministry that aimed to corrupt and morph the bible into a megalomaniacs self obsessed image. In the Lords Recovery I lived for Lee not Christ, Lee ministry aimed to tear apart who God really is.

6. The things you mention and desire for the most can be pursued and lived, if you actually follow the word of God. Lee ministry is pretty dangerous and looking at him and who he truly was, I wouldn't want to follow an exposition of scripture that is just a mirror reflection of his corrupted self.

I am glad you posted, you feel one way, people feel another. I hope we can understand each-other and our experiences.

[Unregistered]

Glad you shared your experience. I think we can realize that in this age of the church, we are still sinful(refer to church in Corinth) and not perfect. I find the meetings in homes to allow for bible study, questions, meals and conversation, to be the best way to help others come to the Lord. Sometimes inviting gospel friends to big speaking meeting is better too. As for studying the Bible, the Brethren opening up the matter of types and other crucial truths(such as the New Jerusalem , its spiritual interpretation and application too) are not found anywhere. Can you tell me where I could find a "helpful and insightful" commentary on Revelation 21-22? I have read a bunch of physical, meaningless mumblings about these chapters that leave any hungry believer with nothing but physical pearly gates.

I find the truths concerning the kingdom to be very encouraging and motivating. For example, the Lords word regarding the slothful slave (Matt. 24) is to a believer, not an unbeliever. The Lords word regarding virgins is also to us believers (Matt. 25). Matt. 7 mentions many will do things in the Lords name, but the Lord will say, "Depart from Me." All these portions are to motivate and encourage all believers to choose the Lord and live a sanctified life. I am happy to be in a place that shares the truths from the Bible, and does not sugar coat verses. I have seen some leave the local churches because of their personal interests things, such as in singing, or a club activity. Some prefer to go to church a couple times per year, and some leave because they do not want to offend and losing family relationship. And some are simply self-glory seeking. I can say that the emphasis is on magnifying Christ and giving Him the glory.

As for you mentioning moaning for 10 minutes, sounds like an Indian mystic practice to me. I learned to pray and pray-read over the Holy Word about 3 decades ago, and I have never repeated meaningless empty words one time in my years in the local church. I simply encourage others to use the word to help pray. And I learned to call on the Lords name because He is rich unto all men that call on His name---says in Romans 10:13. Isn't the Lord richer to you each time you turn your heart to Him and call His name? Lastly, I just want to say that I am glad to openly fellowship with you about my experience and how I have counted all things loss on account of the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord! Have a nice day!

[gr8ful]

... As for studying the Bible, the Brethren opening up the matter of types and other crucial truths(such as the New Jerusalem , its spiritual interpretation and application too) are not found anywhere. ...

Hi, Unregistered. There's a lot I appreciate about Bible facts I've learned over 30 years in the Local Church -- things like "abode" vs "mansion" in John, and the NJ coming down out of Heaven prepared as a Bride VS "a literal gold-encrusted mansion". These helped me make sense of the Bible (as opposed to the surface-level understandings common in shallower teachings) when I was a new believer and was discouraged by simpleton thinking.

However, I have to ask you to explain, from your perspective, what is crucial about the truth you highlighted in parenthesis, specifically, "The New Jerusalem"?

What effect has studying Rev 21-22 had on your life and the lives of the people with whom you come into contact?

There's no wrong answer -- I'm wanting to understand how this truth is crucial, as you put it.

[Nell]

Thanks Nell, I do like your addition to my post. Amen.

I don’t suppose you meet in Scottsdale…do you?

Nell

[Unregistered]

Hi Nell, I do not meet in Scottsdale. I have visted the localities of Tucson and Tempe though and had very sweet fellowship with saints there. I was able to visit college campuses of Univ of Arizona and Arizona State to distribute literature to help students believe in the Lord Jesus. I have visited many local churches throughout California, Oregon, and Washington, as well as the college campuses with a burden for the outreach of the gospel. The prayer and coordination with the saints in these places has always been sweet and satisfying. Have a nice day Nell!!

[Ohio]

I have met in the local churches for 38 years now, and most of the years I have been faithful to the Lord. The study of the Bible surpasses other Christian groups that I have visited. The elders that I have met have been honest and humble and realize that the church is not their possession, but that the should lead as patterns for the flock. The subjective experience of the cross and dealing with the flesh is unheard of in most Christian churches, and I find that many places are too shallow for my desired pursuit of spirituality and building up of the Body of Christ. I am at home in the local church life and encourage others to be open to meet, take the cross, seek to know His resurrection power and live for His kingdom. The coming millennial kingdom is a reward to faithful believers and I find that the best place for me to run the race and earn this prize is in the local churches. I thank the Lord for bringing me to the local church life in 1983! I am forever home!
The subjective experience of the cross of Christ and dealing with our flesh has everything to do with how we respond when being tested. Peter says the proving of our faith is more precious than gold which perishes.

For 30 years I believed that Witness Lee was a man of God, experiencing the cross of Christ and dealing with his flesh, and training others according to the narrow way that leads to life.

Then I studied the actual events in Local Church history. I learned the "rest of the story." I studied that part of LC history hidden from her members. I stopped believing just one side of the story. I discovered that every so-called "storm" in the Recovery was not as we all were told. I began to study the LC movement in the light of scriptures. I found far too many facts contrary to the published narrative by WL and the Blendeds.

Now I look at all my friends and family still stuck in the LC system with mournful pity. They believe many dead esoteric doctrines and "spiritualized" propaganda about their past. They still think far more of themselves than they ought to think. They think they are better than the rest of the body of Christ. They have such a pitiful attitude towards the entire body of Christ. They have no clue how much they resemble the Laodiceans.

I agree that some LC's can provide you with a studious and sincere community focused on the teachings of WL, but those at LSM have a long history of unrepented unrigheousness towards former members.

[Nell]

Hi Nell, I do not meet in Scottsdale. I have visted the localities of Tucson and Tempe though and had very sweet fellowship with saints there. I was able to visit college campuses of Univ of Arizona and Arizona State to distribute literature to help students believe in the Lord Jesus. I have visited many local churches throughout California, Oregon, and Washington, as well as the college campuses with a burden for the outreach of the gospel. The prayer and coordination with the saints in these places has always been sweet and satisfying. Have a nice day Nell!!

Maybe you can say a few words about your goal/s and/or motivation for posting on this forum. Your topic says you love the Lord and coming to the full knowledge of the truth. So I’m guessing your motivation has something to do with your desire to be faithful to the truth. Is this correct?

We’re big on “the truth”, and “Truth”, around here. Regarding Truth, we generally don’t take anyone’s word at face value, unless supported by a clear scripture reference…per Acts 17:11.

It’s important to register for an account if you plan to hang around for awhile (and we hope you do). When we get posts by multiple “unregistered” users, we can’t always figure out who’s who…so we have to guess. So please consider registering for your own personal account.

Looking forward to hearing from you.

Nell

[Unregistered]

Hi Nell, well I posted in spirit of fellowship as you can tell from my posts. While there may be some differences in viewpoints from the scriptures and practices between us Christians, I am striving to be obedient to the heavenly vision (Acts 26:19) that I have received from the Lord. I certainly understand the reasons for registering, and if I continue to post I will gladly register. I probably will register and continue posting in the spirit of fellowship. Allow me to pray for the Lord's leading on this matter. I hope you have an awesome day. Our God is an awesome God (Psalm 68:35).

[Ohio]

I posted in spirit of fellowship as you can tell from my posts. While there may be some differences in viewpoints from the scriptures and practices between us Christians, I am striving to be obedient to the heavenly vision (Acts 26:19) that I have received from the Lord.
Can you describe exactly what heavenly vision you have received from the Lord? I ask this because Apostle Paul wrote in detail about the vision he received and the incredible effect it had on his life, yet LC members (myself included at one time) throw this vision comment around quite casually.

Paul's heavenly vision was to take the Good News to the Gentiles. For this he suffered much. For this he exercised to always keep a good conscience before God and man.

On the contrary, I have witnessed many LC leaders (including WL himself) violating righteousness and their conscience while casually discussing this vision, a vision quite different from the Apostle Paul's vision and teaching.

Paul made it clear to Timothy that if we do not hold faith and a good conscience we will become shipwrecked. (1 Tm 1.19) Paul also makes it clear that some leaders in the Recovery can have a form of godliness, yet will be traitors, blinded with pride, arrogant, revilers, without natural affection, etc. (2 Tm 3)

[Unregistered]

Hello Ohio. Yes I am able to speak of the vision that I have seen, by way of the Holy Spirit. For now I would just like to say to you that I hope you are able to have fellowship and experience God`s salvation with other family members. I differ from some of my family members in that some are veiled by religious veils and stuck in the Catholic church, while others are more open to my pursuing to live the Christian life, even though they disagree with the way that I am taking. I grew up a religious Catholic and I went to church, but I lived a sinful life not knowing that I had a conscience nor the function of my conscience that could guide me from right/wrong. I will not state with conviction that others do not live by their conscience, as you stated in your post. I will leave the judging up to the Lord. I live by my conscience, when I fail, I apply the precious blood of Christ in a sincere way.

Part of the vision that I have seen is that the Lord cares for the oneness of His believers and He prayed for this to the Father in the book of John. Since we have started to converse, we should strive to fellowship in spirit with each other and if we do not see eye-to-eye on some Christian matters, we can agree that past local church members SHOULD NOT AFFECT how both you and I love the Lord (Matt. 22:37), share the gospel to others (Rom. 1:9), offer sinners as a sacrifice to God (Rom. 15:16), pray to the Lord (Phil.4:6), and work of faith and labor in love (1 Thess. 1:3) resulting in the building up of the Body of Christ (Eph. 4:16). Part of the vision that I have seen, like Paul saw, is that the Lord is for desiring we live in the Body (as Paul had a sweet fellowship and coordination in the gospel with the saints in Philippi), for the Body, and the issue will be an overcoming life (John mentions those that overcome in Revelation) in which believers experience becoming pillars (Rev. 3:8) in the temple of God's building. The Lord making His home in our hearts (Eph. 3:17) takes time as Paul prayed for the Ephesian believers regarding this matter.

Lastly, I hope our chatting could be edifying to both of us as we share what we have gained from His Word and our experiences that He has led us to gain Christ (Phil. 3:8). "Lord, be with Ohio and his family in a way that they can feed on your Word and encourage each other to run the race. May they be led to run the race together. Amen."

[Ohio]

Hello Ohio. Yes I am able to speak of the vision that I have seen, by way of the Holy Spirit. For now I would just like to say to you that I hope you are able to have fellowship and experience God`s salvation with other family members. I differ from some of my family members in that some are veiled by religious veils and stuck in the Catholic church, while others are more open to my pursuing to live the Christian life, even though they disagree with the way that I am taking. I grew up a religious Catholic and I went to church, but I lived a sinful life not knowing that I had a conscience nor the function of my conscience that could guide me from right/wrong. I will not state with conviction that others do not live by their conscience, as you stated in your post. I will leave the judging up to the Lord. I live by my conscience, when I fail, I apply the precious blood of Christ in a sincere way.

Part of the vision that I have seen is that the Lord cares for the oneness of His believers and He prayed for this to the Father in the book of John. Since we have started to converse, we should strive to fellowship in spirit with each other and if we do not see eye-to-eye on some Christian matters, we can agree that past local church members SHOULD NOT AFFECT how both you and I love the Lord (Matt. 22:37), share the gospel to others (Rom. 1:9), offer sinners as a sacrifice to God (Rom. 15:16), pray to the Lord (Phil.4:6), and work of faith and labor in love (1 Thess. 1:3) resulting in the building up of the Body of Christ (Eph. 4:16). Part of the vision that I have seen, like Paul saw, is that the Lord is for desiring we live in the Body (as Paul had a sweet fellowship and coordination in the gospel with the saints in Philippi), for the Body, and the issue will be an overcoming life (John mentions those that overcome in Revelation) in which believers experience becoming pillars (Rev. 3:8) in the temple of God's building. The Lord making His home in our hearts (Eph. 3:17) takes time as Paul prayed for the Ephesian believers regarding this matter.

Lastly, I hope our chatting could be edifying to both of us as we share what we have gained from His Word and our experiences that He has led us to gain Christ (Phil. 3:8). "Lord, be with Ohio and his family in a way that they can feed on your Word and encourage each other to run the race. May they be led to run the race together. Amen."

Unregistered, it would be nice if you would pick some unique name so that I could identify who wrote the post. I don't think that is too much to ask.

I too was raised Catholic, named after a Franciscan priest, and educated in their schools. Today I have many beloved Catholic friends, but would never participate in their church organization because of blatant violations of God's commands by their leadership.

Jesus and the apostles spoke of many things in the N.T., but both Peter and Paul had specific visions from the Lord, i.e. that the Good News should be taken to the Gentiles. Paul and the apostles placed the obedience to this vision and the faithful exercise of a good conscience to please God above all else. This is why God's children have been blessed for two millennia by their writings.

You specifically mentioned the oneness of the believers and the fellowship of the body life as part of your vision. I still hold these dear. On the night I was so wonderfully saved in my bedroom, the Lord gave me 3 great gifts: love for Him, love for His word, and love for His people. Back in the mid 70's He brought me to the church in Cleveland. I had intended to also spend my entire life in fellowship with these saints.

Nearly 20 years ago, leaders at LSM decided to excommunicate leaders and LC's close to me. I studied everything both sides wrote at the time. I also studied Brethren history, our spiritual forebears. The pathetic actions orchestrated by these leaders in Anaheim, violating every principle of spiritual and biblical oneness in the body of Christ, caused me to sever all ties and lose all respect for those at LSM. Further study enabled me to learn that these unrighteous actions did not originate with the Blendeds, but went back to China, Taiwan, and Ball Road.

Today I no longer trust any history I have heard from WL or the Blendeds. They are not honest ministers of the truths of the Bible. This may not be what you believe at this time, but trust me, the evidence is overwhelming.

The oneness you and I both espoused in the Recovery is not the genuine oneness of the Spirit in the body of Christ, but a prideful oneness predicated on the teachings and rulings of WL and the Blendeds. They alone get to decide who is "one" and who is not. I lived thru it. I've been behind the scenes. These Blendeds are modern day Pharisees, and like Jesus warned the disciples, "Beware of the leaven of the Blendeds."

[Nell]

Better yet, Unregistered, please do us the courtesy of registering for an account on this forum. You, at least I think it’s the same person but I don’t know for sure, you are posting too much as unregistered. Posts sit in the Moderation Queue until we find the time to approve them. This is getting to be a tedious process with you, and we cannot continue a prompt response.

The posts of Registered Members are immediately available on the main page.

Again, if you plan to continue to post, please register by sending an email to Reg4LCD@gmail.com, and include your preference for a username.

Nell

[aron]

Part of the vision that I've seen is that the Lord cares for the oneness of His believers and He prayed for this to the Father in the book of John. Since we have started to converse, we should strive to fellowship in spirit with each other and if we do not see eye-to-eye on some Christian matters, we can agree that past local church members SHOULD NOT AFFECT how both you and I love the Lord (Matt. 22:37), share the gospel to others (Rom. 1:9), offer sinners as a sacrifice to God (Rom. 15:16), pray to the Lord (Phil.4:6), and work of faith and labor in love (1 Thess. 1:3) resulting in the building up of the Body of Christ (Eph. 4:16). Part of the vision that I have seen, like Paul saw, is that the Lord is for desiring we live in the Body (as Paul had a sweet fellowship and coordination in the gospel with the saints in Philippi), for the Body, and the issue will be an overcoming life (John mentions those that overcome in Revelation) in which believers experience becoming pillars (Rev. 3:8) in the temple of God's building. The Lord making His home in our hearts (Eph. 3:17) takes time as Paul prayed for the Ephesian believers regarding this matter.
I noted the phrase "coming to the full knowledge of the truth" in the thread title, and the term "crucial truths" in an earlier post, which led to the quote above. So I take it that these elucidated points are "crucial truths". Perhaps so, but these points are in many serious scholarly books that cover the Biblical writings in question, and many earnest sermons on Sunday mornings also cover these themes.

One thing that the local churches stress continually is to be aligned with the teachings in the Witness Lee bookshelf which they call "crucial truths" and "high peak truths" and "recovered truths" and so forth. In fact, many probably are aware of the Lee family sins, such as Son Philip molesting office help, or even Lee family crimes, such as money laundering (Terry Risenhoover testified to non-profit 'donations' and 'training fees' being used to cover lost 'loans' to Son Timothy's failed motor home business). Yet they stay - why? Because of the supposed truths that they can't find elsewhere. So they say, ''No church is perfect - look at Corinth".

Yet if you look at these supposed truths that bind them so tightly, such that they overlook egregious sin, many of the points are really Christian boilerplate (even if not followed, most Christians will assent to them), and many of the novel ones are just made-up mumblings. In the local church they're held as truth simply because the minister Witness Lee supposedly was a fountain of truths. If he spoke it, and printed and sold it in a book, then the contents of his speaking must be truth itself.

Yet when one critically examines the contents, it isn't truth, but a reading, an interpretation, which often can't hold up under scrutiny. Take the Economy Of God - how many thick books came out on this theme? Yet where does Paul say that the Economy of God includes intensification? Where does Paul teach intensification? If you can't find him teaching it, why do you think he asked Timothy to remain behind in Ephesus and make sure it got taught?

No, it's just made-up teaching, unsupported by scripture. I think a superior reading of "Oikonomea Theou" is given by Jesus: "Give to those who can't repay you in this age, and your reward will be great in heaven." Paul goes into this at length in 2 Corinthians 8 and 9: Those who gather little have no lack, those with much have no excess. You can also see it stressed in the apostles' actions - or Acts - in the Book of Acts of the Apostles. They shared, they gave away, they took no thought for the morrow, as God could care for them. Paul brought alms from the gentile churches to Jerusalem (Acts 12:24,25; 24:17; cf Gal 2:7-10). They were all making abodes in heaven, and storing up treasure where no moth could eat nor rust destroy nor thieves steal from. That's God's economy. And we can see it all lived out by Peter, Paul, John, James.

But I don't hold that reading as 'truth' per se, but merely a more satisfying interpretation of one phrase in Paul's epistle, than what WL offered. Jesus himself is Truth. He came to testify to the truth. He showed us the Father. He showed us love. And our shared truth as Christians is that God raised him from the dead and gave him glory, and a name above every name in this age and that which is to come. The contents and aim of our faith is Jesus, crucified for our sins and raised to eternal glory.

Yes 'the kingdom reward' is important. But if we really cared about truth, reality, and the kingdom reward, do you think that we'd allow a man with reprobate sons to have authority in church? What 'truth' can over-ride the plain words of scripture, words of clear apostolic command, and leave our common sense, and ignore millennia of consistent Christian interpretation?

[Ohio]

Yes 'the kingdom reward' is important. But if we really cared about truth, reality, and the kingdom reward, do you think that we'd allow a man with reprobate sons to have authority in church? What 'truth' can over-ride the plain words of scripture, words of clear apostolic command, and leave our common sense, and ignore millennia of consistent Christian interpretation?
What good are Paul's detailed directions to Timothy and Titus concerning the qualifications of elders and deacons when WL could not even meet these minimum basic requirements? "But if anyone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?" (I Tim 3.5) Yet WL has been elevated in the Recovery high above all -- the Minister of the Age, the consummate MOTA, this age's last spiritual "giant," THE apostle, etc.

[aron]

What good are Paul's detailed directions to Timothy and Titus concerning the qualifications of elders and deacons when WL could not even meet these minimum basic requirements? "But if anyone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?" (I Tim 3.5) Yet WL has been elevated in the Recovery high above all -- the Minister of the Age, the consummate MOTA, this age's last spiritual "giant," THE apostle, etc.

It's a clever end-around, that the rules which apply to all Christians, even the founding apostles (!!), don't apply to the New Moses, aka The Seer of the Divine Revelation - The "SDR" was a mantle, or cloak of authority, that WL invested in WN and thence to himself.

So the local church was this strange place where the Bible was scrupulously held, except where it was inconvenient. Then it was summarily ignored, or new rules, or 'ahem' truths were manufactured, sometimes with no scriptural basis whatever. What emerged over time was this gross, pseudo-Christian monstrosity. Yet it staunchly maintained itself as genuine - "most orthodox" as I heard WL devoutly proclaim - because that gave it access to a large pool of potential converts. Like the Bible, the larger Christian faith was alternately trumpeted, drawn on for source material, and then dismissed as passe.

I've told this story before so will spare the details, but a year ago I got curious and did a key word search. I looked up "apostle of the age" and "revelation for the current generation" and so forth. Turns out there are a number of groups that have successfully worked WL's scam. One in S Korea gained notoriety early in the Covid Pandemic, when it's missionaries returned from China with the virus and the groups' meetings became super-spreader events. They have - similar to LSM - a kind of full time training and also various episodic training festivals. It's all quite bizarre, and unsettlingly familiar. I looked at their website and the verbiage could have been lifted word-for-word from LSM. "In every generation, God raises up one Gifted Minister who brings light to the darkened world...blah blah" There's this veneer of Christian fealty and underneath is anything but.

Then there was one in the Philippines. It's now run by the grandson of the New Moses Figure who founded it 100 years ago. It's one of the biggest religious groups in the country, and has outreach congregations wherever expatriate Filipinos live. Again, sound familiar?

Then there's one in Mexico. Again, membership in the hundreds of thousands if not millions. The current leader, or 'ahem' apostle, is the grandson of the New Moses Figure who started it, and is in jail on charges of rape and extortion. But of course they say that he's being persecuted for his faith.

Now, all four of these groups can't be speaking the truth (I include LSM here). God can't simultaneously raise up four separate leaders and their groups, each one of whom has proprietary claim to being the "Seer of the Divine Revelation". Either three were/are impostors and one is truly the Apostle of the Age, or all are impostors. Given the wreckage following them, I'd say the second choice seems most likely.

But here's my point - why do members continue on in the face of so much evidence that the party line - "In 1921 God raised up Watchman Nee, to bring God's present truth to the earth .. blah blah" - is so much manufactured and self-serving lies? How to continually allow oneself to be pinioned by what one constantly calls "truth" with some modifier - crucial truth, high peak truth - when there's ample evidence available that something is very wrong, and it's simply not so?

What's so clever and diabolical about these teachings is that they not only disseminate error but that the error has it's own protective coating. You get excited by incessant shouting, repetitive roaring in the congregation (that was my experience anyway) and then you're told that every other group is poisoned with lies. Don't trust anyone but the Guru. Everyone else is compromised! Only the Guru has no ambition! So you seek the euphoric rush of membership in the elite, in "God's best" as we were termed, and simultaneously you are pre-emptively pruned of any ability to think critically about what you're being fed. Don't trust your family, people at work, anyone in 'religion' - no, only the pure word of the ministry from the MOTA. Don't even trust your thoughts. Trust only the Ministry.

Gradually a loop is formed where the person only thinks Hive thoughts and does Hive activities. Even when the Hive is only loosely connected with the Bible, and has repeated and serious disconnections with the Bible, the members go on. Scandal in top leadership - "Sail on! Sail on in the Lord!". I remember singing that song. I didn't know what was behind it's composition. I just thought it was a good Christian song.

Just be simple! Don't be hardened!! Drop your concepts! EAT THAT TREEEE!!! (Those of you who were there will recognize that last one)

[Ohio]

I've told this story before so will spare the details, but a year ago I got curious and did a key word search. I looked up "apostle of the age" and "revelation for the current generation" and so forth. Turns out there are a number of groups that have successfully worked WL's scam.
aron, I can't believe that you have mentioned 3 contemporary examples, yet you missed the most prominent one. I'm not talking about some obscure Asian personality cults totally irrelevant to the subject of this forum, but one well known to LC members for decades.

I'm speaking about the current leader of the Plymouth Brethren, Bruce D. Hales in Australia, the one who has direct ministerial lineage back to the founder of the movement, none other than John Nelson Darby himself. And I'm not talking about the endless Brethren offshoots of those who have been excommunicated, I mean quarantined, by them. Hales' adherents boast the purest pedigree, meaning they are the ones who have never been expelled from their recovered church, and have always remained faithful to the "vision" from John Darby. Rather they alone have "kept the truth" by expelling all other "rebellious ones." In fact, Hales' spiritual G-G-father even expelled Watchman Nee for violating the oneness of the body of Christ. How's that for "deputy authority?"

If you want the Minister of the Age, The Oracle of God, the Chosen Vessel, today's rightful Deputy of God, and all of the scandals and corruption that accompany such false ecclesiastical prominence, do not look to those on W. LaPalma Ave. in Anaheim, but to Hales himself. Google him up. The internet reeks with his holy stench. Not enough for the reader? Then check into the Popes, whence all "Deputy Authority" began.

[Unregistered]

I have met in the local churches for 38 years now, and most of the years I have been faithful to the Lord.

Will you help change the abuse? Will you help them to stop using authoritarian methods? Stop indoctrination of children, we lived it. It was awful. AWFUL.

[aron]

...we lived it. It was awful. AWFUL.Why the difference in response from this person, to the first poster? Both shared aspects of the same collective experience. I believe that the first poster received some set of concepts as truth, as reality itself, while the second didn't.

The original poster believed this set of teachings were an end in themselves, subsuming even the contents of the Bible. Matthew 18 accountability norms were flouted, as OT types like "covering drunken Noah" replaced them. The human conscience was suppressed - "We don't care for right and wrong" was the leadership phrase. One's own mental faculties were held with suspicion and disdain - "Don't think, drink". When people would object (online on this forum) the typical response was, "You are confused". Even when it was ever so clear.

Instead of scripture, reason, and the larger Christian conversation, there was a set of teachings (called revelations, or truths) packaged and sold by a publishing house owned by the Seer (Hmmm...). Some of them weren't even put together well... as I said, there's no reason that "God's economy" should have included 'intensification" except the supposed revelation said it was so. Certainly I've never seen it in Paul's works, especially the prominent place WL gave it.

[Trapped]

I have met in the local churches for 38 years now, and most of the years I have been faithful to the Lord. The study of the Bible surpasses other Christian groups that I have visited. The elders that I have met have been honest and humble and realize that the church is not their possession, but that the should lead as patterns for the flock. The subjective experience of the cross and dealing with the flesh is unheard of in most Christian churches, and I find that many places are too shallow for my desired pursuit of spirituality and building up of the Body of Christ. I am at home in the local church life and encourage others to be open to meet, take the cross, seek to know His resurrection power and live for His kingdom. The coming millennial kingdom is a reward to faithful believers and I find that the best place for me to run the race and earn this prize is in the local churches. I thank the Lord for bringing me to the local church life in 1983! I am forever home!

Unregistered,

This might seem out of left field, but hopefully you'll humor me. What do you think about the teaching to "get out of your mind and into your spirit!"?

Trapped