Shepherding Words "From The Co-Workers In The Lord's Recovery" [Archive] - Page 2

aron

12-19-2019, 03:51 AM

Unfortunately, at some level, too much of Evangelicalism — especially those more closely aligned with fundamentalism — have been almost as disdainful of "good works."

No, works do not cause us to be saved. But after that, they are paramount to continued fellowship and, I would assume, that salvation that is "worked" out with fear and trembling.

If the book of Acts is trustworthy then works of the disciples were paramount. Why did the widows weep so copiously when Dorcas died? Because they had no means to pay her, and could only pay with tears of gratitude, joy, sorrow, and love. And look at the term "daily dispensing" in Acts 6:1 (RecV). Dispensing of what? Outlines? Directives from HQ? No, real, actual, physical food, to those same widows.

And the people who laid their offerings at the apostles' feet, where did this go? Soft pillows for their wives? Expense accounts for their children? No, it was "wasted" on those poor widows, just as Jesus had already "wasted" himself on us. When Peter told the gentiles in Acts 10:38 that Jesus "went around doing good" that was central to the gospel message as he understood it. Now, if we think that Peter had a "low gospel" and we should move on, that's another conversation. But let's not pretend that the record doesn't exist.

We're saved by Jesus' righteous act, not our own. By faith in his righteousness, it's imputed as ours. But once that question's settled, there's another: what next? What shall we do? Passively sit in LSM-approved meetings and "absorb God" in their grace-on-steroids programme? Or shout slogans at one another, as if this constitutes reality itself? That doesn't align with the record of scripture.

No, what we should do is follow Jesus. We see the pattern he laid (Acts 10:38), and we follow.

12-22-2019, 09:58 PM

If the book of Acts is trustworthy then works of the disciples were paramount. Why did the widows weep so copiously when Dorcas died? Because they had no means to pay her, and could only pay with tears of gratitude, joy, sorrow, and love. And look at the term "daily dispensing" in Acts 6:1 (RecV). Dispensing of what? Outlines? Directives from HQ? No, real, actual, physical food, to those same widows.

And the people who laid their offerings at the apostles' feet, where did this go? Soft pillows for their wives? Expense accounts for their children? No, it was "wasted" on those poor widows, just as Jesus had already "wasted" himself on us. When Peter told the gentiles in Acts 10:38 that Jesus "went around doing good" that was central to the gospel message as he understood it. Now, if we think that Peter had a "low gospel" and we should move on, that's another conversation. But let's not pretend that the record doesn't exist.

We're saved by Jesus' righteous act, not our own. By faith in his righteousness, it's imputed as ours. But once that question's settled, there's another: what next? What shall we do? Passively sit in LSM-approved meetings and "absorb God" in their grace-on-steroids programme? Or shout slogans at one another, as if this constitutes reality itself? That doesn't align with the record of scripture.

No, what we should do is follow Jesus. We see the pattern he laid (Acts 10:38), and we follow.

James 2:14-25 https://biblehub.com/bsb/james/2.htm addresses what aron is talking about. Show me faith without works and I’ll show you dead faith. Yet never once in TLR was I encouraged to do good works, in fact it was discouraged.

Speaking of Christians getting involved in social issues, Christians were instrumental in finally getting it abolished http://www.jubilee-centre.org/the-abolition-of-the-slave-trade-christian-conscience-and-political-action-by-john-coffey/.

Once again Nee as the founder of TLR spouted off in ignorance, Lee, and Blendeds continued the message and tens of thousands of local church saints followed such dead faith. Time for the madness to stop!

UntoHim

01-07-2020, 08:03 AM

https://shepherdingwords.com/twisting-ron-kangass-words/

Original Quote by Kangas:
I am so thankful I have my companion, my wife, to travel with me wherever I go, but I am the co-worker; I am the one ministering.
She is nothing. She is no one. She is just my wife. I will never crown her. I will never exalt her. To do so would be to damage her.

Response by ShepherdingWords.Com:
Context and balance are critical to evaluating words fairly. Recently, a short excerpt from a message given by Brother Ron Kangas was mischaracterized as his demeaning his wife in front of thousands of people. This misrepresents Brother Ron’s attitude toward his own wife and toward marriage in general; moreover, it neglects the context of his speaking and the point he was making.

To excerpt and re-contextualize all or part of the last paragraph, which is less than 1% of the entire message, conveys two false impressions: 1) that the ministry in the Lord’s recovery demeans females; and 2) that Brother Ron specifically demeans his own wife. Both are absurd.

When it is read in context, Brother Ron’s point in mentioning his wife in his message on Miriam was not to denigrate her but to illustrate that his role in serving the Lord as a co-worker does not bestow any status in the Lord’s work upon her. In saying this, he was warning leading brothers not to assume that their wives share in their role in the church, for this will cause damage both to their wives and to the church. This is equally true of husbands whose wives serve the ministry or the church in some capacity. Suppose a married sister serves in Living Stream Ministry (LSM). Her service gives her husband no standing to touch any matter related to LSM. Were he to presume otherwise and interfere with the service of LSM, he would likewise cause damage.

Wrenching quotes from context and presenting them in an unbalanced manner is a common tactic used in attacks on the leadership in the ministry and the work in the Lord’s recovery. Our hope and prayer is that no one will be stumbled by such a deceitful and reprehensible practice but will understand the spirit in which the words were ministered and be perfected by the biblical insights they convey.
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aron

01-07-2020, 08:27 AM

Shepherding Words: We hope that people will understand the spirit in which the words were ministered and be perfected by the biblical insights they convey.

I was in the meetings and understood the spirit in which the words were ministered. I was sitting there, and heard Ron say, "Sometimes I think the only thing worse than a rebellious brother is a spiritual sister." I don't remember the paragraph before or after, but a chill settled over the crowd. It was like a dark thing flew out of his mouth in front of us all. "Sisters, know your place." That was the spirit. We all understood the spirit in which it was conveyed.

Now, how to reconcile that with the lauding - or in Ron's words "exaltation" - of "spiritual sisters" like ME Barber, J Penn-Lewis, J Guyon etc etc? No effort is ever made to balance the two extremes. What do you think it does to the souls of the flock, who are asked to simultaneously hold two radically discordant positions? It's not healthy, folks. Sorry, if that's an "attack" well that's what I saw. I was in the meeting, and heard he words. Anyone in any of the conferences or training meetings heard similar words. The quote supposedly "wrenched from context" was not a one-off. They say that stuff in most of the meetings. Somewhere along with all the spiritual speaking, they slip in a few phrases just so everyone knows - "this is how it really is."

The real problem for LC leaders is that these kinds of speakings, which have been given all along, now are being reported to the public. Twenty years ago, it didn't make it to the glossy, "polished" printed material. So now they're having an image problem.

And if the DCP & Shepherding Words want context, they have been repeatedly given the opportunity to explain how they sell a book by Mary E McDonough on "God's Plan of Salvation" and how it's quoted in their literature as supplying Nee with revelation on the "parts of man", and then the next thing they say is, "Sisters can't teach - it's in the Bible."

Go to LSM's book sales page, and look under letter "G" and there's McDonough's book.

Ohio

01-07-2020, 09:38 AM

It's truly incredible the amount of work saddled on their ministry wordsmiths to clean up endless gaffes. Kangas would know, he was Lee's chief wordsmith for decades.

UntoHim

01-07-2020, 09:56 AM

https://shepherdingwords.com/twisting-ron-kangass-words/
She is nothing. She is no one. She is just my wife.
I think many of us have seen the video of this message. We could hear with our own ears the degrading, haughty spirit with which Kangas spoke these words. Sorry co-workers, there is NO CONTEXT in which a man should speak about his wife with these words. The words "She is nothing" mean something. The words "She is no one" mean something. The words "She is just my wife" mean something.

Here’s what Ron and his defenders should have said:
I’m sorry. I was wrong. We were wrong. My words toward my wife were harsh and incendiary and I totally understand why they were received as they were. I/We now realize that, historically, with such speaking and indeed treatment of women, those of us in Leadership have cultivated a culture of abuse in the churches. To all of you, men and women, I offer my sincere repentance for this terrible misrepresentation of God’s Word and God’s heart toward all of those for whom he gave his Son.
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Ohio

01-07-2020, 12:30 PM

I think many of us have seen the video of this message. We could hear with our own ears the degrading, haughty spirit with which Kangas spoke these words. Sorry co-workers, there is NO CONTEXT in which a man should speak about his wife with these words. The words "She is nothing" mean something. The words "She is no one" mean something. The words "She is just my wife" mean something.
-
RK didn't tell this nonsense to his wife at home during a heated discussion for which he later apologized. With tears. And then some more.

Ron Kangas said this publicly. He spoke as a so-called "god-man." Supposedly he got perfected by the ministry of WL. He is elevated as an example to all LC leaders and members. He writes the outlines for all of the trainings. This is how a "god-man" treats his wife? Everyone in the meeting heard this. It was recorded. More folks heard this.

And then LSM wordsmiths defended this by saying that we "took this out of context." Hellloooo! Was not the context here the Casteel letter? And that Casteel letter was soundly condemned for citing abuses in the LC?

Oh the arrogance! "Do you see a person here wise in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him. (Proverbs 26.12)

Trapped

02-26-2020, 08:33 PM

More articles are up on shepherdingwords.com.

:rollingeyesfrown:

It looks like they roll around sites and forums looking for what's being talked about in order to know what to write about.

Freedom

02-26-2020, 08:53 PM

More articles are up on shepherdingwords.com.

:rollingeyesfrown:

It looks like they roll around sites and forums looking for what's being talked about in order to know what to write about.

They would never admit that they read these forums, but they make it pretty obvious that they do. Sometimes when I post here, I like to think of them the primary audience reading these posts since everyone here is anonymous anyways. :lol:

Freedom

02-27-2020, 09:27 AM

One of the new articles is titled Being Overcomers with a Vision, Not Idealists with a Dream. In that article, there is an excerpt from a message that Ron gave. He states: "Related to the church, there is a difference between a visionary and an idealist. An idealist has an ideal of what the church is supposed to be, and when they first come into the church life, they think they have found utopia. But gradually they discover that the church with all the saints is not a perfect place." This is a perfect example as to how the LCM works to misconstrue the legitimate and valid reasons that has led former members to leave.

First of all, whether we were raised in the LC or joined later on, I think most of us were told at some point how things were "supposed to be." This was the "vision" that we were supposedly following. The cause for concern came about when the environment didn't match the so-called vision. So in reality, what Ron is really doing here is blame-shifting. The simple fact is that the LC has failed its members. Anyone who has dared to point that out is attacked as being disillusioned, critical, too idealistic, etc.

UntoHim

02-27-2020, 10:35 AM

My Post from 9/23/2019:
2) "Through fellowship with the apostles". WHO ARE TODAY'S APOSTLES? NAME THEM. The apostle Paul named himself as an apostle: (1 Timothy 1:1) The apostle Peter named himself as an apostle: (1 Peter 1:1) The Acts of the apostles names the apostles. Presumably, some or all of the Blended Brothers consider themselves as today's apostles. Hard to say since they are constantly exercising, enforcing and reinforcing apostolic authority WITHOUT IDENTIFYING THEMSELVES BY PERSONAL NAMES.
-

Apparent response from "The Co-Workers in the Lord's recovery in North America":
"Some have misguidedly demanded a list of apostles in the Lord’s recovery. The notion is unbiblical and absurd. There is no precedent in the Bible, and it is clear from the New Testament that leadership in the church is not a fixed office, as it would be in a hierarchy."

No one is demanding a list. What we are doing is asking that those who exercise apostolic authority among the churches do what all the apostles in the New Testament did - They named themselves. Paul named himself as an apostle. Peter named himself as an apostle. Many apostles were identified by name in Acts. (The Acts the Apostles) The notion that men who exercise apostolic authority be known by name is neither unbiblical nor absurd. As far as leadership not being a "fixed office", well that is an invention of Witness Lee, pure and simple. (A rather ironic concept, since Lee's position among the Local Churches was about as fixed as a leader in a movement could possibly be!)

From these new batch of articles, we can see that the authors claim that not all workers and co-workers are equal. Some function as senior co-workers and others are under their authority and function as junior co-workers. Sounds reasonable. But it still leaves one in the dark about who is who. Again, the biblical, New Testament way is for those who take the position of leadership be known by name. How else can the members of the Body discern and test the qualifications of these men?

Many of you out there may be familiar with the "cessationism versus continuationism" debate, which has been raging in the Christian church for nearly 2,000 years. Basically, one side posits that the function or office of an apostle ceased to exist after the first generation of apostles passed away. The other side contends that the function or office of an apostle has remained down throughout church history, and continues to this present day. Apparently the Co-Workers in the Lord's Recovery movement are continuationists. That's fine - many noted and reputable Christian teachers, scholars and apologists fall into this camp. But the issue of being personally identified remains. There is still a need for the Body to be able to discern and test such a one.
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Trapped

02-27-2020, 06:36 PM

Freedom

02-27-2020, 09:08 PM

Totally. They are calling completely rational things "absurd". How is it absurd to be told to bring serious problems to the co-workers but then be told it's an absurd request when you ask who the co-workers are?

It's not a fixed office? You better believe the co-workers in TLR have been so for quite some time.

Are they just so used to being able to say whatever they want without questions they think meaningless statements made the grade?

What a picture of the extreme result of an echo chamber.

I remember reading some of the writings that emerged during the Midwest quarantine. The LSM officials published some writings and only identified themselves as the "blended coworkers." It was questioned as to just who the "blended coworkers" were. I don't think they ever gave a straight answer to the question.

Trapped

02-27-2020, 10:56 PM

I remember reading some of the writings that emerged during the Midwest quarantine. The LSM officials published some writings and only identified themselves as the "blended coworkers." It was questioned as to just who the "blended coworkers" were. I don't think they ever gave a straight answer to the question.

The ridiculous thing is if Witness Lee put things in the hands of these guys, they obviously know who they are. If these guys need to have meetings before certain training meetings start, they get notified somehow.

They just want to keep an arms length when it comes to accountability, as well as keep things shrouded in mystery and fear.

What a sad realm they've carved out for themselves.

It's just dumb.

Ohio

02-28-2020, 07:38 AM

No one is demanding a list. What we are doing is asking that those who exercise apostolic authority among the churches do what all the apostles in the New Testament did - They named themselves.

For over 20 years, since Lee passed, brothers (at least in the Midwest) have been asking who are the Blendeds? Which brothers are Blended? Who composes the Blended brothers? Who's in charge at LSM?

The only answer was nonsensical, like "the Blended brothers are those brothers who are being blended." We also heard cutesy sayings like, "Nee, Lee, We."

Reason? None of them were qualified to lead. What qualifications did Ron Kangas have? Chief book editor! Also, by not naming the blendeds, none of them needs to be accountable to the member churches.

In the New Testament, all of the genuine apostles were identified. Some of their testimonies were provided. We knew who they were. On the other hand, the super-apostles and the Judaizers, those who claimed to have great authority, went nameless.

Freedom

02-28-2020, 09:30 AM

Also, by not naming the blendeds, none of them needs to be accountable to the member churches.

Under normal circumstances, no one in their right mind would willingly submit to a group of unnamed leaders. People in the LC probably have a general idea as to who the top leaders are, but even then, I don't know that anyone would be able to come up with a definitive list.

OBW

02-28-2020, 02:47 PM

Who composes the Blended brothers? Who's in charge at LSM? . . . . The only answer was nonsensical, like "the Blended brothers are those brothers who are being blended." . . . . Reason? None of them were qualified to lead.Too true. But the question that they still do not ask is, "were Nee or Lee actually qualified to lead?"

Of course, if they actually asked that question, they would have realized the answer and wouldn't be worrying about who the Blendeds were anymore since they would no longer be part of that organization. It would be left for the blendeds to turn off the lights as the last ones leaving.

Indiana

02-29-2020, 05:20 PM

Freedom

03-31-2020, 11:37 AM

Well it looks like shepherdingwords.com is switching gears a little bit:
https://shepherdingwords.com/pdf/Letter%20from%20the%20co-workers%2003-26-2020%20-%20English.pdf
https://shepherdingwords.com/pdf/COVID19%20LetterToNAElders%20032120.pdf

I'm not sure how coronavirus ties into the stated purpose of their website, unless they think it is another "attack" on the LC. These letters that they posted do raise a couple of questions in my mind though:
1) Why do the so-called coworkers feel the need "affirm" and reiterate information that health and government officials have already made known?
2) Do they have reason to believe that LCers won't take the virus seriously until they issue the "final word" on the matter?
3) Does LC leadership perceive a global pandemic to somehow threaten their movement?

Curious

04-01-2020, 03:06 AM

I'm not sure how coronavirus ties into the stated purpose of their website, unless they think it is another "attack" on the LC. These letters that they posted do raise a couple of questions in my mind though:
1) Why do the so-called coworkers feel the need "affirm" and reiterate information that health and government officials have already made known?
2) Do they have reason to believe that LCers won't take the virus seriously until they issue the "final word" on the matter?
3) Does LC leadership perceive a global pandemic to somehow threaten their movement?

I'm gonna have a shot at an answer here.

I see two possibles:

1. Its really important for their interests right now that they seem benevolent, reasonable, neutral and helpful. They can't address the issues that have been raised against them here and elsewhere on the internet, because the longer it goes, the more obvious it becomes that their position is indefensible. They have failed to swing the debate to their advantage. Their methods of arguing work only on their thought-controlled members, and can't hold weight in the real world. So to align themselves with the topic of the moment, (unrelated to any topics of controversy), and harmonise with the authority of the land, the Government, is the manipulative way to back into a place where they seem trustworthy and in line with whom is universally accepted as the authority, to seem totally reasonable and neutral, by inference, by association.

2. They are trying to be the source of critical information distribution with the hope it will limit people's free exploration on the internet looking for information.....the longer people spend moving around on the internet, uncontrolled, the more risk that they may tap a few buttons and find themselves learning information in forbidden territory!!

The situation is unstable, as their members are unable to have their regular top-ups of their 'programming', with all the meetings in person stopped. This poses a major risk, almost all of their members being stuck at home and bored, with time and opportunity to have a good think about things. My guess is it must be a scary time for the top ranks of the LR at present.

Those are my instincts as to why. I think it is very possible this pandemic does threaten their methods of controlling their members, thereby threatening their movement. As they rely so much on filling people's time with meetings, for the purpose of keeping them busy, keeping their thinking under control as well as fostering social dependence. It's never been in the plan to let that be stopped, so it is out of their control, they have to be careful not to look too authoritarian, as they are being 'watched'. They can't hide from 'us' on the internet very easily, they have good reason to be nervous, and so they should. The situation does NOT play into their hands, on several levels.

Trapped

04-01-2020, 03:30 AM

Well it looks like shepherdingwords.com is switching gears a little bit:
https://shepherdingwords.com/pdf/Letter%20from%20the%20co-workers%2003-26-2020%20-%20English.pdf
https://shepherdingwords.com/pdf/COVID19%20LetterToNAElders%20032120.pdf

I'm not sure how coronavirus ties into the stated purpose of their website, unless they think it is another "attack" on the LC. These letters that they posted .....

How comforting to read letters telling us how we should be feeling and what we should be doing during a stressful time, written by people who won't identify themselves and who call it absurd to ask who they are :rollingeyesfrown:

Sons to Glory!

04-01-2020, 08:20 AM

UntoHim

04-01-2020, 08:47 AM

You make a good point Sons to Glory! However I think I'll have to defer to the better point made by Trapped - Right message, given by the wrong messengers.:rolleyes:
-

Ohio

04-01-2020, 09:06 AM

3) Does LC leadership perceive a global pandemic to somehow threaten their movement?
Besides Curious' two good reasons, I see another.

Recovery survival is all about meetings. Meetings to meet friends and meetings for members to also speak. At least this was a serious motivator for me.

LSM's "Feasts" held throughout the year offered great opportunities to connect and re-connect with friends around the country. Linking up at the local restaurant or hospitality during breaks was a great motivator. It was the reason for many to sacrifice their vacation time for another sort of "vacation." During those long-winded and boring messages in the meetings, I learned how to take naps while pretending to take notes. I learned how to do that in college. Sometimes I took notes just to stay awake, but I never napped during the beginning and end of the meetings.

Secondly, for the more serious members, we always came ready to speak something in the meeting. We had to. I loved to prepare, and discover something inspiring in the Word of God. The anointing Spirit would provide great strength and encouragement via this constant practice. This is the part I miss the most.

All that is over because of the corona virus. For good reason, the LC leaders realize their survival is in jeopardy. Not meeting together is far more dangerous than negative internet websites. LC members will not endure those same long-winded and boring messages watching some tasteless podcast on a computer screen.

Freedom

04-01-2020, 09:08 AM

So to align themselves with the topic of the moment, (unrelated to any topics of controversy), and harmonise with the authority of the land, the Government, is the manipulative way to back into a place where they seem trustworthy and in line with whom is universally accepted as the authority, to seem totally reasonable and neutral, by inference, by association.

Yes, this is true. It's an easy opportunity to take a favorable stance on a issue.

I think it is very possible this pandemic does threaten their methods of controlling their members, thereby threatening their movement. As they rely so much on filling people's time with meetings, for the purpose of keeping them busy, keeping their thinking under control as well as fostering social dependence. It's never been in the plan to let that be stopped, so it is out of their control, they have to be careful not to look too authoritarian, as they are being 'watched'. They can't hide from 'us' on the internet very easily, they have good reason to be nervous, and so they should. The situation does NOT play into their hands, on several levels.

The LC has such a hold on their member's time that this situation is definitely a threat to them. I think it becomes a question of what are they all going to do suddenly having a bunch of extra free time. It could easily translate into more of them browsing sites like LCD. Another possibility I see is that suddenly some of them start to spend some time doing some thinking and realize that maybe their time wasn't so balanced going to meetings every night of the week.

Nell

04-01-2020, 06:18 PM

This was interesting...encouraging the faithful to use technology. That’s a first?

“ Even though we may be unable to gather physically, we must not forsake our assembling together but rather meet often with the help of modern technology.”

N

TLFisher

04-02-2020, 02:37 PM

https://shepherdingwords.com/questions-versus-questionings

http://localchurch.web.fc2.com/PDF/PhilipLeeAccounts.pdf
.
Question to an elder Dick Ingram 2001

Reports of Moral Violation and an Eyewitness Account

I recently (2001) phoned a brother in Redding, CA, Dick Ingram, about a certain
matter and we got into a discussion about the problems of misconduct at the Living
Stream Ministry office in the late eighties. This brother, an elder, stated that he thought
that all the talk back then about the business manager’s immoral behavior was just
hearsay. Since I heard from others that it was definitely not hearsay, but true, I sought to
talk to an eye-witness. This whole matter of Philip Lee’s serious misconduct and his
being allowed to continue on in the capacity as manager of the LSM operations, working
with sisters, without discipline from Brother Lee or the elders over a long period of time
was a primary driving wedge between the saints and a major contributing factor to the
turmoil and division in the recovery.

Questions versus Questionings....another manner to say having it both ways.
For those ever summoned to the fellowship room, how can that not be in itself labeled as questionings?
"The brothers" have their assertions and I have mine. How is any history related to Phillip Lee "covered" and not "covered over"?
Most certainly it had been covering over. Regional respected brothers knew and did nothing. Currently this article had been carefully crafted to sidestep any assertions about LC history.

https://shepherdingwords.com/covering-not-covering-up/

Trapped

11-04-2020, 09:06 AM

New articles up as of a few days ago.

Just the titles of the articles make me roll my eyes....honestly. The more they write defending themselves, the more they will be without excuse.

Ohio

11-04-2020, 11:19 AM

New articles up as of a few days ago.

Just the titles of the articles make me roll my eyes....honestly. The more they write defending themselves, the more they will be without excuse.
Never is an author listed, rather the generic "coworkers."

I'm surprised they even date the articles, since these are such timeless "truths" which we all hold to be "self-evident."

UntoHim

11-05-2020, 01:01 PM

To "The co-workers in the Lord’s recovery in North America"

Regarding the following public posting on ShepherdingWords.Com:

"To say that once a church is established the apostles, that is, the leading co-workers, should never 'interfere' in that church’s affairs"

#1 Please identify by name all "The co-workers in the Lord's recovery". Christian leaders and co-workers of any Christian ministry should not be anonymous. This is neither scriptural nor ethical. Even secular corporations list the names of the board of directors. How much more is expected of a Christian ministry? You say that you are "in the Lord's recovery". Well brothers, it is time for you to "recover" the biblical, New Testament principle of publicly naming "the Co-workers in the Lord's recovery". The apostles all named themselves. Many workers and local church leaders were publicly named. Even the evil spirits knew Paul's name! "But the evil spirit answered them, Jesus I know, and Paul I recognize, but who are you?" Acts 19:15

#2 Please identify by name who are the current apostles in the Local Church movement/Lord's Recovery. Also list all the local church elders that have been appointed by these various apostles. None of the apostles in the New Testament expected to be anonymous, and neither should you brothers. You owe this to the brothers and sisters who contribute their hard-earned money and time to the various local churches, and to the Living Stream Ministry. You owe this to the Christian public, and to the Body of Christ at large.
-

Curious

11-05-2020, 09:45 PM

aron

11-06-2020, 05:48 PM

It's called 'Shepherding Words' because that's all they are good at.... Wordsmithing words.

Its called 'Shepherding Words' because they don't have Shepherding Hearts. Just empty words that go round in circles pretending they are defending their nonsense.

The latest lot on their attitude to the rest of Christianity is so full of contradiction and hints at their judgement of the rest of the church clearly enough, that it's evident just by reading it! They might as well have been more forthright about their 'superior' position.

I read the quote on the Forum front page from "Shepherding Words" and the last sentence said, "This crucial matter relates to God’s administration and therefore to the headship of Christ, so it is important to read both the Bible and the ministry carefully and thoroughly without bias, self-interest, or any other impure motive."

This crucial matter, acc to SW, needs the reader to be careful and thorough, not with bias or self interest or any other impurity. But how can they say that Witness Lee was careful, or thorough, or had no bias or self interest? After he put his son in charge of his business office, and left him alone with vulnerable women, who then had non-consensual sexual relations with him? I say non-consensual because of the power imbalance - Philip Lee preyed on them just as Harvey Weinstein did with his actresses under contract. Was Witness Lee careful when he put Philip Lee in charge?

Wasn't there self-interest when a minister puts his son on the payroll, when the son flouts all human decency not to mention Christian values, then railroads the witnesses? Wasn't there self-interest when he got the Church in Boston to hand over $100,000 to his son Timothy's Motor Home business? Or when WL called TC: "You just bought 1,000 chairs". No self-interest? Hardly.

When Sal Benoit called Witness Lee and wanted to know where the $$ went, Witness said, "Now, Sal, you know this is none of your business." Self-interest. Same with Dong Yu Lan - when a church member who had give up his career, and traveled around the world promoting DYL's church and ministry and vision, suddenly noticed that DYL's children were running the business, and got suspicious, and asked to see where the money was going, he was told, "DYL's money is a black box". This has all the appearances of self-interest.

For the wordsmiths of LSM to lecture others about selfishness and self-interest and bias is hypocrisy. If they want to correct others, they should be open to correction. If they say others lack care, and have bias, they should admit the same. There is only one Judge. ~James 4:12

Ohio

11-06-2020, 06:04 PM

Trapped

11-06-2020, 06:42 PM

I read the quote on the Forum front page from "Shepherding Words" and the last sentence said, "This crucial matter relates to God’s administration and therefore to the headship of Christ, so it is important to read both the Bible and the ministry carefully and thoroughly without bias, self-interest, or any other impure motive."

Thus says the people who:

1. claim a non-pareil MOTA status that doesn't exist
2. claim a deputy authority that doesn't exist
3. claim to be the only true ("genuine") church and then lie about their own belief

Talk about bias, extreme self-interest, and impure motive on the part of the very people threatening others not to do that same thing!

BTW, if you google "God's governmental administration".......far and away the majority of the results of the first two pages are LSM/LC related. They usually threaten "God's government" and "God's administration" when they want to steamroller their readers into a state of fear and unquestioning reception.

This is a cult fear-tactic. Hopefully readers and lurkers will take note.

Trapped

11-06-2020, 06:53 PM

The latest lot on their attitude to the rest of Christianity is so full of contradiction and hints at their judgement of the rest of the church clearly enough, that it's evident just by reading it! They might as well have been more forthright about their 'superior' position.

I read a little bit on one of the "assailing" articles regarding the ground of locality......you are right, it is full of contradiction and "plot holes".

For example:

"Those who insist on a merely universal concept of oneness discount the need to practice that oneness with believers in their own locality."

Um.....if you have a universal concept of oneness, then that by definition produces a oneness with those locally too. Universal is universal and does not exclude any believer. This would easily cover the believers in your own city. The wordsmithing co-workers set up a false claim in order to give themselves something to blame other people for.

This kind of nonsense from them is all over the place.

Also this:

"Hence, the church of God and the churches of God (1 Cor. 1:2; 11:16) differ only in their extent. While the church of God is universal, the churches of God are local. And while the church of God comprises all regenerated believers in all places and at all times (Matt. 16:18; 1 Cor. 10:32), the churches of God comprise only those regenerated believers in a particular city at a given time (Rom. 1:7; 1 Thes. 1:1)."

Verse references are nice and all, but let's take a look.

1 Cor. 1:2
To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:

1 Cor. 11:16
If anyone is inclined to dispute this, we have no other practice, nor do the churches of God.

So, if we go along with what they are saying, clearly from these verses "the church of God" is local (in Corinth), and "the churches of God" are universal. Clearly.

But the co-workers claim the exact opposite. And it's not just a typo either, because their second sentence digs it in even further. "The church of God comprises all regenerated believers in all places and at all times"?? Nope. "The church of God" in the verses they provided are very specifically about only the church in Corinth at that particular time. And vice versa on the latter half of that last sentence.

They can't even keep their own convoluted doctrines straight.

Praise Him for His mercy! I'm so glad to not be trapped (hah) in their constant lies anymore.

Edit to add: I was reminded of some of the lyrics to "Glorious Day" by Passion:

You called my name
Then I ran out of that grave
Out of the darkness
Into Your glorious day

I know that is supposed to be a song about salvation, but boy, it sure feels like it applies to being saved from the LC too.

aron

11-06-2020, 07:45 PM

Talk about bias, extreme self-interest, and impure motive on the part of the very people threatening others not to do that same thing!Was Witness Lee being careful, or rather being cavalier, when he appointed his admittedly 'unspiritual' son into authority at the LSM office? And kept him there for years, even when it became plain what was happening? Was he pure in motive when he held onto his ministry with an iron grip while the churches were subsequently imploding with "storms" and "turmoils", and the faith of many was swamped?

And then, we're to suppose that this careless man became careful, and this impure-hearted man became pure, when he sat down in front of the Bible to interpret God's government? Especially, when he was selling this interpreted word via books, trainings cassettes, CDs, calendars, to the very people that he was telling, "You just bought 1,000 chairs"?!

We don't know how many millions this 'ministry' re-directed into the Lee family coffers, and into the hands of intimate cronies. (If one church yielded $100K, it was in the millions.) But we'll never know, because it was all Lee's personal business, as he told Sal Benoit. The Phosphorous and Overseas Christian Stewards shell companies were probably little more than money-laundering rackets for his guanxi network.

And then we're supposed to think that his scriptural interpretations, supporting and buttressing these predatory relations, were on the up-and-up? I think of the thread on this forum titled, "Was DayStar poor judgment or fraud?" It really doesn't matter if WL's biblical interpretations were poor judgment, or hasty, or careless, or impure, or ignorant, or biased, or what combination of all of the above. It really doesn't matter.

Trapped

11-06-2020, 10:26 PM

Also, the co-workers are woefully out of touch with much of what is happening in current Christianity today. Their harping on the religious system of Christianity that keeps people's mouths shut while exalting their own Lord's Recovery fallen system stinks of the vomit pile that it is.

"Here in the local church, each one has!"

Oh sure, where "each one" can open their mouth to....

-recite a hymn (written or re-written by Witness Lee)
-speak a word of instruction (by Witness Lee)
-recite a revelation (from Witness Lee), or
-propagate an interpretation (of only Witness Lee, or else)

:gag:

(Am I misremembering that there is a vomit emoji on this forum? oh well, "gag" will have to do for now).

UntoHim

11-08-2020, 01:22 PM

So, co-workers in the Lord's recovery, I see that you had to dig way back 55 years to get a quote from Lee concerning apostles. So that's the latest reference you fellows could come up with? Really? I guess that should tell you about what kind of weak ground you guys are on, now shouldn't it.

I've got a much later quote from Witness Lee. It's a quote from his deposition in one of the many lawsuits Lee & Co. filed against a Christian author. Actually I'll have to give a close paraphrase: "I DO NOT REFER TO MYSELF, OR CONSIDER MYSELF, AN APOSTLE, AND I HAVE ASKED MY FOLLOWERS NOT TO REFER TO ME AS AN APOSTLE"

Actually this corresponds with my 20+ years of hearing Witness Lee in person - HE NEVER, EVER REFERRED TO HIMSELF AS AN APOSTLE IN PUBLIC. IN FACT, ON MORE THAN JUST ONE OCCATION, HE STRONGLY AND CLEARLY ASKED HIS FOLLOWERS TO NOT CALL HIM OR REFER TO HIM AS AN APOSTLE.

And now today you brothers not only refer to Witness Lee as an apostle (actually you refer to him as a super-apostle - "the One Minister with the One Ministry for the Age") you brothers are now saying that some of you are to be referred to as apostles.

Apostles have names. What are your names? Also please list your qualifications for being an apostle.
-

Trapped

11-08-2020, 07:57 PM

I believe there are probably on the order of 60-ish "co-workers" (give or take). They know who they are. It is the height of absurdity that they would all band together in agreement to publicly hide their names. This alone should send a stir through anyone reading, and tell us all that these are not genuine "apostles".

About the sidebar quote:

From the co-workers in the Lord’s recovery in North America (https://shepherdingwords.com/the-ongoing-relationship-between-the-apostles-and-the-local-churches/)
The Ongoing Relationship Between the Apostles and the Local Churches (https://shepherdingwords.com/the-ongoing-relationship-between-the-apostles-and-the-local-churches/)
"Whether a full-time co-worker can be an apostle depends solely on whether or not he has the ability to lead the churches. If he is not capable of leading the churches in an overall manner, he is only a full-timer who participates in the work; he is not qualified to stand in the position of an apostle. This kind of full-timer has a share in the work, but he should not intervene to touch the elders in the affairs of a local church, as an apostle does." (Collected Works of Witness Lee, 1965, vol. 4, 190).

"Ability to lead"? That's the SOLE thing? No other qualifications? No other contingencies?

Ability to lead means they can lead the churches......but right to hell. Ability to lead means there are numerous other critical character traits that are not a factor.

And hang on, I thought there are "no positions" but only "functions"? What is this "position of an apostle" stuff?

Also, Witness Lee pretty obviously thought of himself as the MOTA too. It's not just the co-workers who started calling him a MOTA. Lee steps onto the pedestal of MOTA-hood of his own accord in "The Vision of the Age".

UntoHim

11-11-2020, 11:57 AM

Ohio

11-11-2020, 12:43 PM

I wonder what the brothers and sisters in the Great Lakes and Toronto Canada would have to say about this statement.
-
I believe that LSM was very active behind the scenes, secretly training and funding, so that it was only locals who actually filed lawsuits. Not sure if any directly involved, who still monitor this forum, could verify.

LSM was willing to support any local dissidents, but the only actual lawsuits that I am aware of were in Mansfield, Columbus, and Toronto. They were successful in Mansfield and Columbus. When it comes to nasty lawsuits, spiritual brothers will always lose, since their focus is on spiritual and not business matters. Here is a public news brief (http://www.concernedbrothers.com/Columbus/News_Brief_Columbus__1____2.pdf) from back in the day:
COLUMBUS NEWS BRIEF

Religious Suing Saga Continues: After learning from past experiences suing Christian publishers, it was only a matter of time before followers of the Living Stream Ministry began solving disputes against churches in the same way. Columbus-based followers of the Living Stream have sued the church in Columbus, the local fellowship of which they were a part. The group alleges unfair treatment in being told by church leadership that they had to leave.

Recently, the Columbus church issued a statement clarifying that they did not view themselves as part of the Living Stream network of churches and would not follow its policies and agendas. They felt the beliefs being promoted sounded cult-like and had produced a hostile environment within the congregation. Said Columbus elder Mike Puskas, “The Living Stream group among us had become a separate church within our church, receiving directions, values, and goals not from local leadership, but from their headquarters in southern California. No church can survive such a thing. When it became a choice between letting these people stay or seeing the church become increasingly dysfunctional, we chose not to let them stay."

Trapped

11-11-2020, 03:42 PM

"Accusations that Living Stream Ministry exercises authority over local churches or has orchestrated legal action against any former member or group of members of a local church are false."
-

Again, this is just deception on their part (what a shock). The truth is that the overlap of the LSM board with the co-workers is that there is no way to separate them. If all the co-workers agree on something, it by default means that the LSM board (a subset of the co-workers) agrees on that same thing. There is not co-worker Ron and LSM Ron. There is just Ron. Ron (or whoever) may come in word as a co-worker, but he is also inextricably of LSM, representing, propagating, teaching "the ministry of the age" ONLY, which is the ONLY thing LSM produces and which ONLY LSM produces.

LSM is the practical source of "the ministry of the age". If you want to "get the ministry of the age", you hook your belt to what LSM put or puts out. This is indisputable. This same ministry says that if you don't follow that ministry, then your service isn't accepted by God. To fully receive what LSM puts out by default means you are controlled by it. It is a ministry of oppression.

What deception they spread.

Nell

11-13-2020, 06:53 AM

Trapped

11-13-2020, 12:19 PM

The Relationship between Living Stream Ministry and the Local Churches
Some have persisted in accusing Living Stream Ministry of controlling the local churches. The accusation is absurd. Each local church answers directly to the Lord and is under the oversight of local brothers. It is up to these brothers whether and to what degree the church will use LSM materials or participate in LSM-sponsored gatherings. Living Stream Ministry has no organizational, administrative, or financial control over the churches. At most LSM asks the churches to follow its standards and procedures for such things as ordering printed materials and registering for and conducting its trainings. It does so as a means to facilitate its ongoing service to the churches. Accusations that Living Stream Ministry exercises authority over local churches or has orchestrated legal action against any former member or group of members of a local church are false. PROTESTING TOO MUCH WEAKENS YOUR CASE!!!
Am I the only person who thinks ‘Well they must be guilty then!’ when the LSM says 'the accusation is absurd" or "LSM has no ... control over the churches" or "no legal action against any ..." or denies they have perpetrated some misdeed...???

We were there. We know better. We lived it. They have created a website which exemplifies "protesting too much." For this we thank you. Thank you ShepherdingWords.com for publishing, in a way that no one else could, the "Collected Failures of the Ministry of Witness Lee."

Nell

Totally agree. When I saw that sentence "the accusation is absurd" that stuck out as a gigantic red flag of a lie. The co-workers also say it is "absurd" to ask who the names of the so-called apostles are, even though it's actually completely biblical.

So we can know that, for "the co-workers" in "the Lord's recovery", true and biblical things are absurd.

And for them to say "Living Stream Ministry has no organizational, administrative, or financial control over the churches"??? The co-workers completely leave out the fact that LSM has behavioral, informational, thought, and emotion control over the churches and the individual elders and members, which is the truth they conveniently omit. LSM's whole shtick is infused with threats, fear, and heavy-handed teachings, which are precisely a form of control.

I mean, hang on. The live trainings are put on by LSM. The main speakers have for a very long time been LSM board members. The messages they speak are then published by LSM and sold to all the local churches. Their own teachings say that if you don't follow what they say ("the ministry of the age", which is only freshly released at LSM events, spoken by LSM employees, and sold by LSM itself) then you are toast before God. Explain to me again how LSM has zero control over anything?

Nell

11-13-2020, 01:16 PM

Totally agree. When I saw that sentence "the accusation is absurd" that stuck out as a gigantic red flag of a lie. The co-workers also say it is "absurd" to ask who the names of the so-called apostles are, even though it's actually completely biblical.

So we can know that, for "the co-workers" in "the Lord's recovery", true and biblical things are absurd.

And for them to say "Living Stream Ministry has no organizational, administrative, or financial control over the churches"??? The co-workers completely leave out the fact that LSM has behavioral, informational, thought, and emotion control over the churches and the individual elders and members, which is the truth they conveniently omit. LSM's whole shtick is infused with threats, fear, and heavy-handed teachings, which are precisely a form of control.

I mean, hang on. The live trainings are put on by LSM. The main speakers have for a very long time been LSM board members. The messages they speak are then published by LSM and sold to all the local churches. Their own teachings say that if you don't follow what they say ("the ministry of the age", which is only freshly released at LSM events, spoken by LSM employees, and sold by LSM itself) then you are toast before God. Explain to me again how LSM has zero control over anything?

Way back when, I was in charge of updating and printing the phone list. They were careful to make sure names of those no longer attending meetings were removed from the list. Many objected to this, because the phone list was their prayer list.

Why, you ask? Based on the phone list, LSM issued a standing order for books and literature which the churches were required to purchase in order to remain in "good standing." (Franchise fees?) This "standing order" was passed along to the saints, whether they/we wanted it or not. I could never pay that much and I didn't read all that stuff anyway. I had such a backlog that one time they just gave me my order without paying. The "standing order" just "went away" one day without fanfare.

I don't know if they still do this kind of stuff, but it was pretty sleazy while it was going on. And now, for them to build a "WHO ME??" website shouldn't surprise anyone. I'm trying to avoid saying "absurd" :-) .

Nell

Ohio

11-14-2020, 08:17 AM

Accusations that Living Stream Ministry exercises authority over local churches or has orchestrated legal action against any former member or group of members of a local church are false.Notice that this did not say, "Accusations that Living Stream Ministry exercises authority over local churches or has orchestrated legal action against any existing local church are false."

It is a matter of historical record that operatives from LSM have orchestrated legal action against local churches using using disgruntled members of that LC. They attempted this in many, many Midwest LC's, but definitely orchestrated legal actions thru these disaffected members in Toronto, ON, Columbus, OH, and Mansfield, OH.

To say otherwise is just deception.

Ohio

11-14-2020, 08:35 AM

Why, you ask? Based on the phone list, LSM issued a standing order for books and literature which the churches were required to purchase in order to remain in "good standing." (Franchise fees?) This "standing order" was passed along to the saints, whether they/we wanted it or not. I could never pay that much and I didn't read all that stuff anyway.
I too spent way too much time making phone lists, thinking they were merely a means of shepherding and communication, only to learn later on that they were politicized.

I think Texas leadership must also have agreed with Philip Lee at LSM to automatically "enroll" members on the standing order. In the Midwest, it was voluntary, but still became quite burdensome over time. I do know, however, that Cleveland was saddled with huge volumes of unsold books every month, and completely unable to shut them off. Obviously Cleveland was on a quota. TC's reputation was on the line.

The church phone list was used in other ways to establish "quotas," whether or not they were official or not. There were quotas and attendance records for the semi-annual trainings, both live and video. Quotas for FTTA. Quotas for elders' meetings and ITERO. Quotas for donations to DCP. Quotas for the massive LaPalma Campus purchase.

Nell

11-14-2020, 09:41 AM

2006, October - A Warning and a Quarantine (http://https://www.afaithfulword.org/statements/Warning%20Statement%202006-10-01.pdf)
Read it online...still active on "afaithfulword.org"
Posted on the Bereans Forum January 12, 2007

Regarding Titus Chu
See attached

...but it's not a lawsuit!

Nell

11-14-2020, 10:23 AM

Maybe the Shepherding Words, the Cow-Orkers, et al, could profit from this little booklet "The Elders Book of Cherishing".

Contents:
2 Ministry Excerpts On Shepherding the Saints. Here are a few examples:

1. “The condition of a church depends upon the eldership in that church. The proper
eldership is one in which all the elders contact people daily, weekly, regularly, and
consistently. The number of people the elders contact is the deciding factor of the
condition of the church in their locality.”

102. “Of course, I noticed that many of the elders are very careful not to offend the
saints or make them unhappy. This is good. But if the parents are always so good to the
children and do not correct them, the children will be spoiled. I am saying this to point
out that eventually the perfected saints will be grateful to the elders who care for them
properly.”

116. “We love people. We love the opposers, and we love the top rebels. I really mean
it. We love them and do not hate them. Who am I? I am not qualified to condemn or
hate. Am I perfect?”

Isn't that special?

13 Minoru Chen - Icemen in the Lord's Recovery (He needs a hug.)
15 Not Through Rebuke

This little gem is an anonymous (of course). It also is not copyright protected so maybe I won't get sued. Maybe I compiled it. I don't think I did, but it could have been me, or UntoHim or Ohio.

Here is the last paragraph:

“The problems in a church are often related to the elders, and most of the problems related to the elders arise from the elders’ negative spirit, attitude, and tone toward others. It is very difficult not to have a negative spirit. Our spirit, attitude, tone, and gesture may all offend people.” - Witness Lee, 1991, Elders’ Training Book 11, p. 23-26.

I feel better already.

Nell

Trapped

11-14-2020, 05:24 PM

Maybe the Shepherding Words, the Cow-Orkers, et al, could profit from this little booklet "The Elders Book of Cherishing".

13 Minoru Chen - Icemen in the Lord's Recovery (He needs a hug.)

Crazily enough, Minoru's word here is fairly good. I sense a desire for real care in what I read in that portion.

Boy, this just makes it all the harder to square up the bad side of things with the good side of things. How can a warm word like that make any sense when cloaked in so many horrible actions we know have occurred? I still just can't wrap my head around it.

Trapped

11-15-2020, 12:26 PM

A proper understanding of the term Lord’s recovery is needed to understand our relationship with our fellow believers who do not meet in the local churches. The Lord’s recovery is not our name, nor does it describe an elite and exclusive fellowship of believers on the earth today. It does not refer to any kind of organization. The ministry presents the Lord’s recovery as being the work initiated by God Himself for the accomplishment of His eternal purpose.

"The ministry presents the Lord's recovery......"

Wrong. Don't talk to me about what the ministry says. Where the Biblical backup, guys?

And their "explanation" makes no sense anyway. They are saying that God "recovers" some of His children and doesn't bother to recover His other children.

And now those other children are "fellow believers", not "spiritual fornicators"?

When Ron stands on stage booming "I'm so glad I'm in the Lord's recovery", even if you pretend that he's talking about "the work initiated by God Himself" as they try to pass it off, that still inherently describes an "elite and exclusive fellowship of believers on earth today", which is what the co-workers deny in this very quote.

As usual, their own teachings are self-contradictory.

No, seriously, isn't there a "throwing up" emoji on this site, or am I imagining it?

Nell

11-15-2020, 06:40 PM

Crazily enough, Minoru's word here is fairly good. I sense a desire for real care in what I read in that portion.

Boy, this just makes it all the harder to square up the bad side of things with the good side of things. How can a warm word like that make any sense when cloaked in so many horrible actions we know have occurred? I still just can't wrap my head around it.

That's always the problem for me too. How can you trust a hypocrite? Also, Monoru shared his Iceman thing in 1998...21 years ago. When will the cherishing start?

Nell

UntoHim

11-18-2020, 09:42 AM

We ask those believers who disagree with our stand to afford us the freedom to follow the Lord according to our conscience. Similarly, we allow other Christians the freedom to do the same.

"We allow other Christians the freedom to do the same"? Wow, how generous of you CoWorkersInTheLordsRecoveryNorthAmerica! You know, I'm sure all the millions and millions of genuine Christians in North America can now relax! We were all on pins and needles and holding our breaths until you Local Church of Witness Lee brothers gave us the OK to teach and practice the Christian faith according to our conscience, the same way that we have been doing for about 2,000 years now.

Disagree with your stand? Why we wouldn't dream of it! Why on earth would we disagree with a stand that says we are all "christless", and the daughters of the Great Whore? Let's face it, we poor, poor Christianity moo-cows are just grateful to be getting the table scraps from the rich ministry of the One Minister with the One Ministry for the Age!
-

Trapped

11-20-2020, 02:40 PM

We should not restrict how God communicates to man. Rather, we should receive God’s speaking in whatever form it takes. The Bible shows that God speaks to man by four principal means—through creation, in Christ, in the Scriptures, and as the indwelling Spirit of reality. Now the Lord as the Spirit of reality has joined Himself to our spirit, making us one spirit with Him . It is by the mingled spirit as a spirit of wisdom and revelation that we can know God’s unveiling of Himself and His economy in His Word.

Co-workers: "we should not restrict how God communicates to man."

Also co-workers: "we must be restricted in one publication. Witness Lee only. All others are poison."

:scratchhead:

Ohio

11-20-2020, 06:09 PM

Co-workers: "we should not restrict how God communicates to man."

Also co-workers: "we must be restricted in one publication. Witness Lee only. All others are poison."

This is so typical. I would daresay that every topic we ever discussed could find WL on both sides of the discussion.

Who is the real WL?

Many times I have stated this: After WL died and the Blendeds took over, TC had all the Midwest workers and leaders reading thru the books of WL on numerous contentious topics. His goal was to sit down with all the leaders in the Recovery, including Midwest brothers, and hash out some reasonable consensus going forward, all based on WL's direction. The compilation work was extensive. Volumes of quotes from every ministry book were assembled together and TC hand delivered them to Anaheim for their review. I have no doubt this work ended up in the dumpster.

Why? Because WL was often all over the place. His written ministry did not match his spoken ministry. His later ministry did not match his earlier ministry. RK knew this. He was responsible for "cleaning up" all of WL's messages, public and private. The written word of old during the Life Study era was much closer to scripture, though not always what most would call "orthodox." His spoken ministry of late was what Anaheim strictly followed. The Blendeds knew WL directly. TC and the Midwest mostly knew his messages and books.

Trapped

11-24-2020, 10:16 AM

I mean.....honestly I am chomping at the bit to write some more about the recent articles, but after reading the "Our Attitude Toward Other Christians and Their Work Part 2: The Vision of the Lord's Recovery Being Contrary to Today's Christianity" article......I just.....feel like I almost can't imagine another group that has so carefully and painstakingly built such a thick, foreboding wall of doctrine that is easy to see through but is so riddled with error that responding to it takes herculean amounts of effort.

I mean, it is SO unreal, it is SO arrogant, it is SO elitist, it is SO snobbish, it is SO divisive while claiming to be "in the name of oneness", and it is SO self-contradictory and hypocritical, that reading their stance just makes me sad, but it's like pulling a 2,000 foot extension cord out of the garage and knowing you've got probably a solid two hours of messing with an incredibly heavy wound-around-itself-mess-of-a-cord to have a chance of getting it unraveled.

I mean, just one sentence: "To realize why the Lord’s recovery is incompatible with today’s Christianity, we need a clear vision of the central truth in the New Testament."

And with just 24 words, they have literally written off the entirety of Christianity but themselves.

This. Screams. Aberrant. Group.

And later on in the article they state what their vision is:

"What is our vision? Our vision is that God so loved the world that He gave His Son to die for us to redeem us, the sinners, in order that we can have the life of Christ and be regenerated by Him to be God’s children, enjoying the riches of the Triune God to become the Body of Christ. In practice, the Body is expressed as the local churches in various localities, practicing the Body life in a practical and proper way. This Body, the church of God, is the focus of God’s economy. (Witness Lee, The Vision of the Age, 79)"

Uhhhhhh......they start out with quite literally the most well-known verse in the Bible and act like they alone have read it. I don't think hardly any Christian on the planet would disagree with their first sentence (save the Triune God part in some instances, I have learned). And so what that leaves is the rest of their "vision" which is just their own divisive practice of being "local" churches. Anyone reading with half a brain can see through what's going on.

And look at that...."enjoying the riches" and "the Body" are the stated focus of God's economy. None of that "eternal life is to know God and Jesus" stuff. Zoinks.

aron

11-24-2020, 01:25 PM

And look at that...."enjoying the riches" and "the Body" are the stated focus of God's economy. None of that "eternal life is to know God and Jesus" stuff. Zoinks.

"Enjoying the riches"... James said, "If you are enjoying your riches, and your brother goes by, hungry and cold, and you say, 'Be blessed, be warmed and filled', what is your enjoyment, really? Empty rhetoric." (cf Ja 2:16).

And then, John, "You say, 'I am rich, and need nothing', but you are destitute" (Rev 3:17)

And then, James again, "Howl, you rich... your riches burn you like fire" (cf Ja 5:1,3).

All this 'enjoyment' is to me just empty rhetoric. It precludes any issue, it is held as an end of itself, bringing God. In fact any issue, any work, is dismissed as "dead works", somehow obviating the grace of God. Yet that is nowhere stated in Paul's epistles, that we no longer need to heed Jesus' admonition to give to those who can't repay us, that our reward will be great in heaven.

Somehow with "enjoying the riches" we can ignore Jesus' repeated admonitions to be generous, and not to be selfish, because of Paul's epistle to the Romans stresses faith, and WL sussed out for the Body of Christ to be built up by repetitive chanting and shouting. That's the enjoyment - heel-rocking, neck-rolling, fist-pumping, sing-song cadence. And "love your neighbour" is nowhere to be found.

I see no riches whatsoever. Just dust.

UntoHim

11-27-2020, 09:50 AM

FACT CHECK:
The Minister of the Age, Not Infallibility (https://shepherdingwords.com/the-minister-of-the-age-not-infallibility/)"Not since the time of the early apostles has the vision of God’s New Testament economy been so clear,
a vision that encompasses the entire Bible from Genesis to Revelation
and that inherits all that the Lord has recovered through His servants throughout the centuries."

Is this statement demonstrably true or demonstrably false? It cannot be partially true or partially false. Since the authors of this statement are hiding behind the nebulous "The co-workers in the Lord’s recovery in North America" we have no way to question them directly. Of course, since followers of Witness Lee have never answered serious questions, I guess we wouldn't be getting any answers from these fellows anyway.
-

Trapped

11-27-2020, 10:18 AM

To say that a certain man is the minister of the age does not mean that this man is infallible. Noah was a minister of the age, but he was clearly not without mistakes. The same could be said for Abraham, Moses, Peter, and even the apostle Paul. Any mistakes Brother Nee and Brother Lee may have made do not nullify the vision or the ministry according to that vision that we have received through these two brothers. Not since the time of the early apostles has the vision of God’s New Testament economy been so clear, a vision that encompasses the entire Bible from Genesis to Revelation and that inherits all that the Lord has recovered through His servants throughout the centuries.

Noah was a minister of the age, co-workers? Really? Show me. Show me from the Scriptures. Where was his ministry? Who did he minister to? What was the topic of his ministry? What "vision" did he stand on stage and release to God's people?

It of course isn't there. He built an ark with instructions from God (not a "vision") and when the flood was over, he tended a vineyard (also not a "vision"). There is no record of him being a minister, or of having a ministry.

These guys literally just open their mouths and say whatever they want, true or not.

And the issue is not that Nee and Lee made mistakes. We all know mistakes alone don't disqualify anyone from teaching the Word (gross or immoral ones aside, I would personally say). It is what they DID following those mistakes that nullifies who they claimed to be.

Man, I'm so sick of the stream of the black, double-tongued lies and manipulation that come from the co-workers. I do like, however, that the lies are all consolidated in one place so they can be so easily seen.

Sons to Glory!

11-27-2020, 01:23 PM

Noah was a minister of the age, co-workers? Really? Show me. Show me from the Scriptures. Where was his ministry? Who did he minister to? What was the topic of his ministry? What "vision" did he stand on stage and release to God's people?

It of course isn't there. He built an ark with instructions from God (not a "vision") and when the flood was over, he tended a vineyard (also not a "vision"). There is no record of him being a minister, or of having a ministry.
I don't know about Noah being a "minister of the age." That's an interesting title that I don't even remember that being used in the LC back in the 80s when I was there last. Must be something since then, right?

I think we can certainly and accurately say Noah was God's man on the earth at that time, but "minister"? Hmmm . . . I suppose it could be how one defines what being a minister is. One definition is "one who ministers to needs." Other definitions point to someone in authority in either clergy or government. In any case, Noah was God's man for that time and gave himself to perform God's will on the earth before and during the flood, but calling him a MOTA, well that's a manmade title and no more.

Trapped

03-24-2021, 07:31 PM

More articles are up.

Riddled with bad interpretations of the Bible.

TLFisher

05-02-2021, 06:45 PM

Excerpt From: Some Questions and Answers Regarding Deputy Authority (https://shepherdingwords.com/some-questions-and-answers-regarding-deputy-authority/)

What if a deputy authority is wrong? If a deputy authority is wrong, we should still submit (Dan. 3:19-21; Acts 16:20-25), though we cannot obey if the authority insists that we act contrary to God (Dan. 3:16-18; Acts 5:29). In the church a failure by the deputy authority should be handled through proper fellowship. For example, a failure in the eldership should be handled through fellowship with the apostles (1 Cor. 1:10-11; 5:1, 13; 1 Tim. 5:19-20).
(emphasis supplied)

"Through fellowship with the apostles". WHO ARE TODAY'S APOSTLES? NAME THEM.

I have one question.
Brothers who consider themselves as apostles, what miracles have you performed?

Bible-believer

08-27-2021, 11:08 PM

"Enjoying the riches"... James said, "If you are enjoying your riches, and your brother goes by, hungry and cold, and you say, 'Be blessed, be warmed and filled', what is your enjoyment, really? Empty rhetoric." (cf Ja 2:16).

And then, John, "You say, 'I am rich, and need nothing', but you are destitute" (Rev 3:17)

And then, James again, "Howl, you rich... your riches burn you like fire" (cf Ja 5:1,3).

All this 'enjoyment' is to me just empty rhetoric. It precludes any issue, it is held as an end of itself, bringing God. In fact any issue, any work, is dismissed as "dead works", somehow obviating the grace of God. Yet that is nowhere stated in Paul's epistles, that we no longer need to heed Jesus' admonition to give to those who can't repay us, that our reward will be great in heaven.

Somehow with "enjoying the riches" we can ignore Jesus' repeated admonitions to be generous, and not to be selfish, because of Paul's epistle to the Romans stresses faith, and WL sussed out for the Body of Christ to be built up by repetitive chanting and shouting. That's the enjoyment - heel-rocking, neck-rolling, fist-pumping, sing-song cadence. And "love your neighbour" is nowhere to be found.

I see no riches whatsoever. Just dust.
1Tim. 3:17Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy;

Bible-believer

08-27-2021, 11:25 PM

FACT CHECK:
The Minister of the Age, Not Infallibility (https://shepherdingwords.com/the-minister-of-the-age-not-infallibility/)
What is our vision? Our vision is that God so loved the world that He gave His Son to die for us to redeem us, the sinners, in order that we can have the life of Christ and be regenerated by Him to be God’s children, enjoying the riches of the Triune God to become the Body of Christ. In practice, the Body is expressed as the local churches in various localities, practicing the Body life in a practical and proper way. This Body, the church of God, is the focus of God’s economy. (The Vision of the Age, 79)

You see, that's their vision- the church of God is the focus of God's economy. Their "vision", what about the biblical evidence of this "vision?" None. That's Lee's teaching, his vision, and became "their vision”，and they defined the vision as "the focus of God's economy".
They admit their vision is not infallible, yet they said their ministry is the only ministry. Why should we take a "not infallible" vision as God's focus?:confused5:

Ohio

08-28-2021, 04:55 AM

You see, that's their vision- the church of God is the focus of God's economy. Their "vision", what about the biblical evidence of this "vision?" None. That's Lee's teaching, his vision, and became "their vision”，and they defined the vision as "the focus of God's economy".
They admit their vision is not infallible, yet they said their ministry is the only ministry. Why should we take a "not infallible" vision as God's focus?:confused5:[/QUOTE]
After hearing about "the vision" for decades, not just the official published party line, but the daily vernacular, like when someone leaves the LC it is said they "lost their vision," I concluded that "the vision" simply meant that you would remain in the LC no matter what happened. These were merely high sounding code words for members who remained, and were willing to put up with any kind of nonsense mandated by LSM. It was then said, "you were faithful to 'the vision'." You were not faithful to the Lord, or to the truth, or to bring the gospel to the nations as Paul defined the vision he was obedient to, but merely a faithful member of LSM.

Trapped

10-07-2021, 12:58 PM

I was just thinking......the co-workers have really shot themselves in the foot with shepherdingwords.com. I mean, it's one thing to go along not knowing what offense people have with you, or to unintentionally not face issues.

But with shepherdingwords.com, there is a hard, public record of the co-workers:

1. being explicitly aware of the issues
2. showing understanding of the issues
3. and yet evading, manipulating, twisting, lying, and avoiding them.

And that last point - the knowing evasion, manipulation, lying - that's what God hates. The hardened heart. The unrepentant sin. The protection of darkness. Jesus showed much mercy to truthful sinners who showed godly sorrow. But no mercy and a lot of anger to hardened, manipulative, haughty people. The co-workers can't feign ignorance to God or man. God knows the hearts......and now He can show them a printout of their own website too!