View Full Version : YouTube Channel Discusses the Local Church
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-2QoHtRerA
Unregistered
08-25-2019, 03:33 AM
wow, I can relate almost everything on this! How can you know so much like the marriage issue since you left at age of 23?
Yes, I went back for a while. But I've observed the group for years and followed this board, which has been a great help. I prefer some anonymity, so I'll comment through YouTube. Thanks for listening!
Unregistered
08-25-2019, 04:47 PM
A new video posted.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfOv9-6yE-U
Gubei
08-25-2019, 07:30 PM
Yes, I went back for a while. But I've observed the group for years and followed this board, which has been a great help. I prefer some anonymity, so I'll comment through YouTube. Thanks for listening!
Thanks. I've subscribed to your channel.
Unregistered
08-26-2019, 03:38 PM
Episode #3 on Abuse of Authority has been posted.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9scXlTXlOI&t=20s
Unregistered
08-27-2019, 05:22 PM
Episode #4 on the Fallacy of the Local Ground has been posted.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6Oe6ILfi44
Video #5 up. More opinions on the local ground. Thanks for listening.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xb-EZ0aRJU
Episode #6 on the Fallacy of the Minister of the Age now posted.
I wanted to get these foundational videos up quickly. Now I'll take a break for a while. Thanks for listening!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFwdYsxg4pY
Truthseeker
08-30-2019, 03:33 PM
Yes, I went back for a while. But I've observed the group for years and followed this board, which has been a great help. I prefer some anonymity, so I'll comment through YouTube. Thanks for listening!
Yeah, I think you may go back to observe the situation in LC for a while and let us know its advance. I thought then you were Texas street preacher because your voice sounds like him.
Raptor
08-31-2019, 02:10 AM
Thanks for making those videos, keep them coming.....
Yeah, I think you may go back to observe the situation in LC for a while and let us know its advance. I thought then you were Texas street preacher because your voice sounds like him.
That's funny, because my voice is slightly altered on the audios. :lol:
No, I'm not him. I got the idea for starting my channel from seeing him, but I do things in a very different style.
Thanks for making those videos, keep them coming.....
The ones I put out form the basis of my argument about the group. I am praying about how to go forward. Thanks for your support!
Episode #7 up, which examines the question of whether the "the Lord's Recovery" is a cult.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wX-3_llIG6o
Episode #8 is up, examining the Christian Research Institute's (CRI) flawed defense of the "The Lord's Recovery."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2l4B1-NnK4
Episode #9 up. Message to the Lord's Recovery - Time to Grow Up.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLLNHLttR8E
Episode #10 posted. Subject - Exposing the Siege Mentality.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzhvIizk0Sg
byHismercy
09-05-2019, 11:41 PM
I loved the newest installment, Cal. Everything I saw is getting named. Siege Mentality indeed.
I loved the newest installment, Cal. Everything I saw is getting named. Siege Mentality indeed.
Thank you, byHismercy! :)
Episode #11 posted. "Is That Really How God Does Things?"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAoFgzxXZTY
Episode #12 posted. On Going on Post-Lord's Recovery.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAmSs1dGfMA
Episode #13 posted. A Simple Way to Go On Post-Lord's Recovery.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R16pRi0-aOQ
Episode #14 posted. Not So Unique After All.
Turns out the "Lord's Recovery" is not as unique as it claimed. It is actually a very typical controlling, abusive group, manifesting all ten characteristics of a "cult" as specified by the Cult Education Institute.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zmqxabNTNM
Episode #15 posted. God Gives Us All Things to Enjoy.
Exposing the extreme and imbalanced austerity of human behavior in "the Lord's Recovery" movement and recommending a healthier approach.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Rkggy7WeAE
Episode #16 posted. The Sanctity of Autonomy
No person, group, church or ministry has the right to give you orders. Your spiritual decisions are strictly between you and God.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzCL29Ji5-c
Episode #17 posted. The Hypocrisy of "the Recovery"
Belief in the principle of recovery should compel "the Lord's Recovery" to understand that people might have to leave the movement for recovery to occur.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEp1QIERgeM
awareness
09-14-2019, 08:12 PM
Episode #17 posted. The Hypocrisy of "the Recovery"
Belief in the principle of recovery should compel "the Lord's Recovery" to understand that people might have to leave the movement for recovery to occur.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEp1QIERgeM
Is that your voice on the vid.?
UntoHim
09-14-2019, 08:23 PM
Hey Cal, keep em guessing on this one...it ads to the intrigue!
-
Is that your voice on the vid.?
No, that's Ohio. ;)
least
09-14-2019, 09:53 PM
Is that your voice on the vid.? -Awareness
No, that's Ohio. ;)
Voice masked (altered electronically).
Well, they know now exactly who you are. They, LSM DCP body.
They will get you.
Let your voice be heard!
No, that's Ohio. ;)
Cal vs. Ohio.
The conflict never ends. Who will get quarantined this time? Stay tuned.
awareness
09-15-2019, 07:33 AM
No, that's Ohio. ;)
Now, now, ya can't fool me. I know Ohio's voice. Maybe it's a voice crying out in the wilderness.
Ohio is the brains, I just supply the voice.
Or is it the other way around? :confused5:
awareness
09-15-2019, 08:56 AM
Ohio is the brains, I just supply the voice.
Or is it the other way around? :confused5:
I agree Ohio could be the brains. He's a sharp cookie. He'd add much to your youTube channel.
byHismercy
09-15-2019, 11:04 PM
I agree Ohio could be the brains. He's a sharp cookie. He'd add much to your youTube channel.
That's an awesome idea! Cal, how about interviews for the channel with ex LCers......current even, and such?
Episode #18 posted. The LR De-personalizes God and Relationships
Examining how "the Lord's Recovery" de-personalizes God and relationships to make members emotionally dependent upon Witness Lee's ministry and the group's identity.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9fMskhvMUM
Episode #19 posted. Making a Mockery of Servant Leadership
Servant leadership is how God protects his people from overbearing leaders. "The Lord's Recovery" leaders run roughshod over and make a mockery of servant leadership.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7szsZw1GYI
Episode #20 posted. Exposing the Abuse of Oneness
Examining how "the Lord's Recovery" hijacks the principle of unity for their own purposes, using it to control their members.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tnai6i0SdhQ
Episode #21 posted. Exposing More Abuses of Oneness
More examination of how "the Lord's Recovery" hijacks the idea of oneness to control their members.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEARH1LGmGQ
Truthseeker
09-21-2019, 04:05 AM
Hey will you post it on YouTube continually? I am going to follow your channel.
Hey will you post it on YouTube continually? I am going to follow your channel.
Sorry, I don't know what you mean...
Episode #22 posted. Exposing More Abuses of Oneness.
Noting the LC "rumor" squashing website shepherdingwords.com (http://www.shepherdingwords.com). And a call to speak out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51j5wtYvhpg
Just started listening to your YouTube channel. Overall very good.
I do think there is one thing that might warrant a different perspective — not necessarily in the videos, but in our thinking. We constantly look back at the LC in the 60s and at least part of the 70s and think about how much certain things were so good.
And they were. But I am not sure that the LC was responsible for that. If you had your ear to the ground, so-to-speak, concerning trends in Christianity, there were many movements in the same direction. the LC was not the first inner-life group to come along. They were not the only group pushing more spiritual views of Christian practices. There were many. My family (I was in high school at the time) was enticed because it tapped into a kind of teaching that was coming from several directions around us.
That we now find more of mainstream Christianity speaking of things that they were not talking about in the 60s and 70s is not about the influence of the LC. It is about the influence of a diverse movement that had great impact on the whole. And so much of that movement was found within the churches it would eventually impact. Or by the people from those churches who also were involved in those inner-life groups.
Unlike the LC which attracted people away from others into a separate fold. The people who come to be part of the LC were people who had some desire toward where that kind of movement was going. They just got caught up in the LC's version of the movement.
But you are right that the LC has stagnated, going nowhere since that time. Why? Because the things that really made the LC were not the inner-life movement, but the specialties of their teaching. Ground. MOA. Deputy authority. God's best. The "up to date move of God." And so on. What was motivating about the early LC was the people who came seeking that inner-life. That were about unity, oneness, fellowship, etc. Things that were forefront at first. Once they were trapped in a system that convinced them they could not go, the joy began to fade. They still grind it out, but it does not look the same anymore.
Do you have transcripts, or is it strictly to be heard? I'm not suggesting turning it into a book format, though that might be something to consider, but putting it into a format readable by a Nook or Kindle app would be nice. It's harder to stop a YouTube video at any point and then return a day later. Close the browser and you are left either starting over or fishing for where you left off.
I realize that 15 to 30 minutes each is not particularly long, but either I need to carve it up, or put up with others complaining that I am taking too much time at any point.
Thanks OBW! We've talked about making transcripts. YouTube is supposed to have some kind of service to do this, and I need to look into it. Thanks for the reminder.
E23 - shepherdingwords.com - Deputy Authority
Examining "the Lord's Recovery's" website shepherdingwords.com and its specious claims about "deputy authority."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXVlzmQue-Q
E24 - shepherdingwords.com - DA, Shortcomings, MOTA
Examining "the Lord's Recovery's" website shepherdingwords.com and its specious claims about "deputy authority" and other matters.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_aichNcM4s
E25 - shepherdingwords.com - Responding to a Listener's Comments
Responding to a listener's posted comments about "deputy authority."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzwIxNiYx7Y
E26 - A Better Way to Determine Spiritual Authority
Examining "the Lord's Recovery's" views about determining spiritual authority and suggesting a simpler, better way.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPybhGqEuoE
Raptor
09-27-2019, 11:25 PM
E26 - A Better Way to Determine Spiritual Authority
Examining "the Lord's Recovery's" views about determining spiritual authority and suggesting a simpler, better way.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPybhGqEuoE
Hi, I think it would be good to address the matter of how the leaders in the Recovery not only claim "deputy authority" but they equate their "authority" with the Old Testament authority that certain people obviously had like Moses (and not so obviously had like Noah).
The leaders in the Recovery claim that if someone disagrees or "opposes" or "rebels" against them that they will suffer God's judgment as if one rebelled vs. Moses. Yet with Moses, you had all the accompanying signs of one that represents God in the Old Testament, i.e. commanding 10 supernatural plagues, helping to save and lead all the Israelites out of Egypt, parting the Red Sea, meeting with God at Mt. Sinai, receiving the 10 commandments, guiding the Israelites through the wilderness with miraculous manna, water out of a rock, cloud during the day, fire at night, etc, etc.
Now there is a big change in the New Testament and how authority is handled. Where are the accompanying signs of the leaders in the Recovery? No signs? So how can they claim the same consequences if one "rebels" against them.....
Hi, I think it would be good to address the matter of how the leaders in the Recovery not only claim "deputy authority" but they equate their "authority" with the Old Testament authority that certain people obviously had like Moses (and not so obviously had like Noah).
The leaders in the Recovery claim that if someone disagrees or "opposes" or "rebels" against them that they will suffer God's judgment as if one rebelled vs. Moses. Yet with Moses, you had all the accompanying signs of one that represents God in the Old Testament, i.e. commanding 10 supernatural plagues, helping to save and lead all the Israelites out of Egypt, parting the Red Sea, meeting with God at Mt. Sinai, receiving the 10 commandments, guiding the Israelites through the wilderness with miraculous manna, water out of a rock, cloud during the day, fire at night, etc, etc.
Now there is a big change in the New Testament and how authority is handled. Where are the accompanying signs of the leaders in the Recovery? No signs? So how can they claim the same consequences if one "rebels" against them.....
Great points, Raptor, and I would add that Moses himself made it clear that Jehovah would one day raise up a Prophet like himself. (Deut 18.15)
There is exceedingly strong and overwhelming evidence that this coming Prophet was not Joshua, David, Peter, Paul, Nee, Lee, or Blended Wee, but Jesus, and only Jesus, who built God's house. (Hebrews 3.1-6)
And btw, here is a great polemic (http://www.letusreason.org/islam2.htm), written from the background of a false prophet from Arabia who also claimed Moses' authority, that connects Moses and Jesus is so many ways.
E27 - Witness Lee's Pasadena Rant
Looking back at Witness Lee's bizarre rant in Pasadena in 1988, where he uplifted himself up in a most inappropriate way.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cXvByMqVrQ
E27 - Witness Lee's Pasadena Rant
Looking back at Witness Lee's bizarre rant in Pasadena in 1988, where he uplifted himself up in a most inappropriate way.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cXvByMqVrQ
Great clip Cal.
I saw this comment on your channel: "Cal is so right when he says that "deputy authority" according to Witness Lee is the doctrine of demons. Paul said something similar to Timothy in I Tim 4.1-3. I'm sure Timothy wondered how "forbidding to marry, and abstaining from certain foods" could be so dangerous. But they were. Church history tells us this conclusively. The popes have also claimed to be the "deputy authority," the vicar of Christ, and popes throughout history have killed more genuine Christians than the Roman empire. This doctrine of "deputy authority," might be the worst doctrine there ever was because it can so easily abused by fallen men."
E28 - shepherdingwords.com - Racism or Sexism in the LR?
Looking at claims of racism and sexism in the "the Lord's Recovery."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muxiF6FvmUs
Freedom
09-30-2019, 10:55 AM
E27 - Witness Lee's Pasadena Rant
Looking back at Witness Lee's bizarre rant in Pasadena in 1988, where he uplifted himself up in a most inappropriate way.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cXvByMqVrQ
Thanks for doing these videos, they are clear and to the point. I hope that people in the LC will come across these and listen to them.
The shepherdingwords.com tries to downplay the purpose and intention of LC teachings like deputy authority. WL's Pasadena conference is the perfect example of the fruit of that kind of that teaching.
Thanks for doing these videos, they are clear and to the point.
Thanks Freedom! I hope they are also short (enough) and living! ;)
Thanks Freedom! I hope they are also short (enough) and living! ;)
Keeping all your YouTubes short, quick, living, and to the point?
YES! :hysterical:
E29 - shepherdingwords.com - The Daystar Debacle - "The Lord's Recovery" Movement of Witness Lee
Examining the unethical actions of the leaders of the "the Lord's Recovery" movement of Witness Lee in the Daystar money-making scheme.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjxRkTmql34
. . . unethical actions of the leaders of the "the Lord's Recovery" movement of Witness Lee in the Daystar money-making scheme.And since it was probably never reported on tax returns (a presumption) it was also likely a little bit of a money laundering scheme.
Freedom
10-01-2019, 11:32 AM
E29 - shepherdingwords.com - The Daystar Debacle - "The Lord's Recovery" Movement of Witness Lee
Examining the unethical actions of the leaders of the "the Lord's Recovery" movement of Witness Lee in the Daystar money-making scheme.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjxRkTmql34
Good point about the ethical issues of Daystar. After 40+ years, there really isn't anything that could be done about the legal issues anyways, so the fact that they chose to use that as their argument definitely is a big smoke screen.
That was something I noticed right away when reading the article. They completely sidestepped any of the ethical issues.
I heard the best line ever from Cal . . .
"These guys are the most exclusive ever, they won't even be buried next to a non LCer." :hysterical:
.................................................. ...........
Hi Cal,
Have you done a segment on the Recovery burial ground at Grace Terrace Memorial Association in Rose Hills Memorial Park Cemetery?
Talk about fleecing the saints! LSM operates their own cemetery. They claim that you can get buried with the "holy saints" rather than with those "worldly" Christians. Anybody want to get buried next to Philip Lee? That will cost you extra.
I heard the best line ever from Cal . . .
"These guys are the most exclusive ever, they won't even be buried next to a non LCer." :hysterical:
.................................................. ...........
Hi Cal,
Have you done a segment on the Recovery burial ground at Grace Terrace Memorial Association in Rose Hills Memorial Park Cemetery?
Talk about fleecing the saints! LSM operates their own cemetery. They claim that you can get buried with the "holy saints" rather than with those "worldly" Christians. Anybody want to get buried next to Philip Lee? That will cost you extra.
I've talked about it a couple of times, but not in detail. Like I said, you can't make this stuff up! :lol:
E30 - shepherdingwords.com - The One Publication Edict
Examining the fact that the "the Lord's Recovery's" one publication edict proves it cannot be the "unique move of God."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsAKFf7RXyk
E31 - Sheep, Wolf or Sheep Dog
Summarizing and expanding on the subjects I've covered so far, and why I feel called to speak out.
I'm going to try to take break for a while. This is a good place to pause and recharge. �� ��
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMxe99uiz00
SeekeroftheFullTruth
10-03-2019, 06:14 AM
Yeah, I think you may go back to observe the situation in LC for a while and let us know its advance. I thought then you were Texas street preacher because your voice sounds like him.
Naw this is very different. I can sense this brother is speaking truth in love in these youtube videos. I listened to all of them in a few days and it cheered my heart. When I saw the videos of Texas street preacher, it is hardly accurate and he is acting like a bully, and I can't sense any anointing. If The Lord ever spoke through a member, I am certain it wouldn't be like this. (Yes we can recognize his voice). He is merely just judging another and will probably fall into judgment himself. These youtube videos by "cal", as I see it, is spiritual discernment. The only thing I wonder about is who he is, and why he remains incognito, because I would like to send him a few questions :D any way to contact you brother "cal"?
I've been in fellowship with people meeting as the church and reading "the ministry" for 15 years, but the Lord has spoken to me and warned me about being proud, exclusive and falling into empty rituals. Sadly, (this is my personal belief I guess) I think many churches in the Lords recovery, even if the Lord came back, many of these brothers and sisters would still have the Lords table in their traditional way without realizing He came back. I hope I am wrong! The only pathway I see now it to practice to have brotherly love to ALL Christians, not insisting on anything, and personally living in the condition of Philadelphia. When these videos of "Cal" came out, it was like everything the Lord had spoken to me was articulated and it was great joy to me. I now meet with a few other Christian groups, but that isn't easy as well. In the Lords recovery I felt it was one extreme, reading ministry too much, but in the Christian groups i found another extreme, meeting where it all becomes a social arena instead of getting into the Word together. Being a Christians isn't too easy, I confess 😳 anyway thank you so much for the videos and please keep them coming. I hope also many that are currently in the Lords Recovery can listen to them and challenge themselves and search their heart in light of these videos. As soon as a group thinks it is above others there should be a red flag.
Sincerely from a seeking brother in Europe
UntoHim
10-03-2019, 09:11 AM
The only thing I wonder about is who he is, and why he remains incognito, because I would like to send him a few questions :D any way to contact you brother "Cal"?
SeekeroftheFullTruth, Thanks for your post! I have a wonderful solution to your problem. Simply send an Email to LocalChurchDiscussions@Gmail.Com requesting membership for the forum (I have reserved "SeekeroftheFullTruth" for you to have for your UserName). We will shoot you back a temporary password and then you can communicate with Cal and others on the open forum, or through the Private Messaging system.
Looking forward to hearing from you!
Your brother who is unto Him
-
Hi SeekeroftheFullTruth,
It makes me happy to know you've gotten some good from my videos.
As for my identity, I've always worked under a pseudonym on this forum, as most of us have, and it just seemed natural to continue that way. I prefer to protect my privacy as well as my family and to keep my options open. I've noticed though with Facebook now, many are speaking out about the LR under their real names, which is great. It's a new generation!
But UntoHim is right, if you get an LCD login, we can communicate with the personal messaging system here.
Thanks again for your kind words!
Just a note that I am going to try to take some time off and figure out which direction to take things going forward.
Blessings,
Cal
E32 - It's Easier to Control Others When You're a Morally Exempt God-man - "The Lord's Recovery"
Showing how "the Lord's Recovery" leaders blur right and wrong to enable their controlling of their members.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PhHvU3v3hY
bookworm
10-07-2019, 08:09 PM
E27 - Witness Lee's Pasadena Rant
Looking back at Witness Lee's bizarre rant in Pasadena in 1988, where he uplifted himself up in a most inappropriate way.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cXvByMqVrQ
You mentioned in this YouTube presentation that Witness Lee after a Thanksgiving Conference in 1988 held an elders’ meeting on November 27, 1988, in the meeting place of the church in San Gabriel.
If you go to the Thread Bill Mallon’s Passing you will see a post by Thankful Jane dated 10-5-2019 in which she shares:
Some here may be interested in the link below that contains many handwritten notes by Bill Mallon made during two periods of Local Church "rebellions" (1977-78 and 1987-1992).
These notes are collaborative historical evidence that will aid in confirming what is true about these two so-called "rebellions." (Many of today's church-kids were born around the time Bill was making these notes.) His notes have not been made public before now. Over the years, the Living Stream Ministry leadership has rewritten history to support their own narrative (their cover-up) of the truth about things that happened during these so-called rebellions.
Out of respect for Bill, before reading any of his notes please read first all of the material in the topic/thread that begins with “Bill’s Request: ...” (It is also found at the link below.)
Bill Mallon Speaks Posthumously
When you click the above link and look in book VIII of Bill Mallon’s notes (11-23-88 to 1-4-89), specifically photocopies DSC03077 to DSC03080, you can read in real time what Bill was told by John Ingalls after this elders’ meeting. John Ingalls tells Bill that “W.L. is hardened, and almost wild, raving, vindicating himself.”
Please note the Topic entitled “Names of Leaders that Correspond to Initials Used in Bill’s Notes” for assistance with the abbreviations.
bookworm
10-08-2019, 10:35 AM
E30 - shepherdingwords.com - The One Publication Edict
Examining the fact that the "the Lord's Recovery's" one publication edict proves it cannot be the "unique move of God."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsAKFf7RXyk
You mention John So in this YouTube message and the one-publication edict.
I would refer those who are interested to go to Book III of Bill Mallon’s notes (see my post #68 for details.)
Specifically note photocopy DSC02543 In a conversation with John Ingalls on 1-7-88 in which J. I. says John So tells about Germany, that the saints there know “Mt 16 is the foundation of the church, that it was not given by W. L. or W. N., but the Father. No new way for Ecclesiastes states there is nothing new under the sun. He said he is happy they are far away, that Germans are not gullible.”
Also DSC02589-2590 “Don Rutledge urged me to call John So.” 3-2-88
“P. L. was on John So’s case for 2 years. 5 bros went to Germany to bring printing under Str control and to get them to submit to P. L. But John So couldn’t for conscience sake tho he gave them the liberty. 5 bros got daily instruct from P. L. Then Germany was cut off from Liv Str. Germany sent 4,000 sheets camera ready to L. Str but not printed… John So and Germany in old way. Str set up office in Eng and tried to cut off Germany, cause prob among Eng churches. Also now bros in Switz have permission to print anything but exclu Germany.”
This corresponds with John So's own testimony given to the saints in Manila. That is also worth reading.
It is beyond pathetic what Philip Lee did to the saints from Stuttgart in retaliation to John So resisting PL's domination.
Reading what Witness Lee allowed his sons to do to the saints caused me to lose all respect for him.
Freedom
10-09-2019, 11:17 AM
E32 - It's Easier to Control Others When You're a Morally Exempt God-man - "The Lord's Recovery"
Showing how "the Lord's Recovery" leaders blur right and wrong to enable their controlling of their members.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PhHvU3v3hY
When was the second RK clip recorded? Is that something recent?
E33 - A Spoken History of the Lord's Recovery (1960-1997)
A spoken version of Steve Isitt's "A History of the Lord's Recovery in the US." This history reveals little known surreptitious events in the movement from 1960 to 1997.
https://youtu.be/VpkP6jOZXXI
Transcript here: https://tinyurl.com/y6qx6spa
googlelight
10-11-2019, 03:37 PM
I listen to these videos every day, and then I start all over again. I found this to be good antidote, and it helps me to wash away all the deception of the whole "ministry spirit" that is in LR and has crept into my heart without me noticing it. Today I called an elderly couple I havent had fellowship with since about 2010 because they "left." I took the word of the blended brothers, something like: "they are rebellious, full of death, opposing the Lord." It was some wonderful 58 min long fellowship ended by prayer. I discovered, they are not rebellious, not full of death and they are not opposing the Lord. They are opposing a ministry that replaces Christ as the solid Rock! As soon as I dropped the seperating wall A.K.A the ministry spirit, the foundation was there right away for life-giving fellowship with my beloved brother and sister I didnt reach out to for so many years. Immediately the love of Christ could flow between members. I got a deep realization of what Paul wrote: "Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you (Roman 15:7!)."
I heard Ron Kangas had said: Steve Issit is a man of death. And from the little I heard, he seemed to mock John Ingalls for following in the conscience, (I am sorry if I misunderstood this)
Ron Kangas will reply to the King: Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
King Jesus will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
E34 - shepherdingwords.com - The Significance of Lily Hsu's Book
Responding to shepherdingwords.com's weak accusations about Lily Hsu's book "My Unforgettable Memories," whose contents cast much doubt on the claims and legacies of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee.
https://youtu.be/V8bV9uOnW2Q
Today I called an elderly couple I havent had fellowship with since about 2010 because they "left." I took the word of the blended brothers, something like: "they are rebellious, full of death, opposing the Lord." It was some wonderful 58 min long fellowship ended by prayer. I discovered, they are not rebellious, not full of death and they are not opposing the Lord. They are opposing a ministry that replaces Christ as the solid Rock! As soon as I dropped the seperating wall A.K.A the ministry spirit, the foundation was there right away for life-giving fellowship with my beloved brother and sister I didnt reach out to for so many years. Immediately the love of Christ could flow between members. I got a deep realization of what Paul wrote: "Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you (Roman 15:7!)."
googlelight, thanks for sharing this testimony.
This is exactly how LSM divides the body of Christ on a personal level.
E35 - Thoughts on Witness Lee's Trinity
Considering Witness Lee's view of the Trinity, and proposing a better view.
https://youtu.be/DLAQh3_8x3E
googlelight
10-15-2019, 03:33 PM
E35 - Thoughts on Witness Lee's Trinity
Considering Witness Lee's view of the Trinity, and proposing a better view.
https://youtu.be/DLAQh3_8x3E
That was deep Cal :xx: Ive had 8 years+ of university, and I am still struggling to comprehend what you are saying :rollingeyesfrown::scratchhead::scratchhead::scrat chhead::scratchhead:
That was deep Cal :xx: Ive had 8 years+ of university, and I am still struggling to comprehend what you are saying :rollingeyesfrown::scratchhead::scratchhead::scrat chhead::scratchhead:
lol
Then just try reading Jonathan Edward's essay. At least I tried to make it simple. :lol:
https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/sdg/Edwards,%20Jonathan%20-%20An%20Unpublished%20Essay%20on%20the%20Tr.pdf
Simply put, I'm trying to say that Lee's view of the Trinity focuses on unconcious, impersonal processes (dispensing) rather than conscious, personal relationships (persons in fellowship), and that this lends to or parallels the LR's tendency to have a warped view of relationships.
I do not know whether Lee's view of the Trinity informs his view of relationship or vice versa. But I believe there is a connection.
The word we should think of when we consider the Trinity should be "relationship" before "dispensing."
I do not believe one who truly appreciates the love between the Father and the Son, which is the Spirit, can have the cold, distant view of relationships that the LR has. That is, something is wrong with their fundamental view of God himself. Again, they focus on process rather than relationship. For example, they concern themselves more with "being transformed" and "making the kingdom" than they do with loving God and getting to know him.
googlelight
10-16-2019, 03:53 PM
Simply put, I'm trying to say that Lee's view of the Trinity focuses on unconcious, impersonal processes (dispensing) rather than conscious, personal relationships (persons in fellowship), and that this lends to or parallels the LR's tendency to have a warped view of relationships.
I do not know whether Lee's view of the Trinity informs his view of relationship or vice versa. But I believe there is a connection.
The word we should think of when we consider the Trinity should be "relationship" before "dispensing."
I do not believe one who truly appreciates the love between the Father and the Son, which is the Spirit, can have the cold, distant view of relationships that the LR has. That is, something is wrong with their fundamental view of God himself. Again, they focus on process rather than relationship. For example, they concern themselves more with "being transformed" and "making the kingdom" than they do with loving God and getting to know him.
Thank you Cal! I am trying to figure out your age (I guess I am just humanly curious). Contentwise, it seems like you have lived together with Methuselah, becoming 969. But Given you started to fellowship with LR at around 18+ in the 70s, it seems reasonable that you are between 60 and 70. I dont need an answer. My guess would be 64.
I thank you for your service to the Body of Christ. May your videos enlighten all. It is evident that you are not against anyone, but simply speaking the truth in love. For those in the bubble, you are probably now the enemy. I think there will be a time in near future 1 - 5 - 10 years, the Lord will descent to the ministry city, and the ministry tower man has built, and if it pleases Him, he will say: "Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other" Genesis 11:7. I may stand corrected, but if this nevertheless happens, I think your videos Cal will help so many confused Christians, hopefully as much as it has helped me.
Today I have found more healthy Christians, where there is the liberty of the Spirit. The meetings are not perfect, and there are many things I am not used to, but I tell you, when I leave that group of Christian, I sense I am filled with love toward them, they hardly do anything right, but they love the Lord in a simple way. Again, thank you for your service Cal. Dont stop!
Thanks, googlelight. You're support means a lot. I'm glad to be able to do something to help people. As to my age, let's just say (1) I feel younger than I am and (2) you are a sharp cookie. :)
least
10-16-2019, 07:00 PM
hi Cal
You are one small potato. A small member in Christ just as all other members of the body of Christ. :)
Cal is only one of the YouTuber of The Age. :D
No offense.
You are 'matured' enough, by your own definition. :skeptical:
Curious
10-17-2019, 12:07 AM
Hello Cal,
I want to respond to your alternative proposition of the inner workings of the trinity. E35
I appreciate all the work and time you are putting into your youtube channel. What you have presented on the trinity certainly does address what lacks in WL’s assessment of who the trinity is. Weather true or not I don’t have enough insight to tell, but it seems far safer than The LC teaching on the trinity. I share your concerns about the damage it, along with much else that comes with the package of the LC, does to the people ensnared in it. I think it takes courage as well as work and time to deliver the messages on your channel.
I find Cal’s posts in themselves demonstrate what the local church lacks….rational, logical, sensible thought processing with a good dose of common sense. Its hard to argue against those and sound plausible, really.
We all rely on, and trust in, a legal system that bases its evaluations on the same principles. Where would our justice system be without them? And therefore our society? Stepping away from those principles is dangerous, in my view. It leads to superstition, and superstition is based in fear. It reverts to an uncivilised way of functioning, actually. A way that western civilisation broke out of as it developed the rule of law, human rights, scientific methodology, democracy etc. all these things are only possible with rational and logical thinking, something WL clearly had no appreciation or understanding of in its history or significance. He didn’t really understand the west, it’s clear. And he clashed against it when he turned against his American followers.
I hope I haven’t rambled.
Cal’s posts demonstrate good sound thinking as well as good conclusions. It’s clear he has given it all deep thought over a long period of time. It’s also noteworthy to me that he is not showing partiality. E28, ‘racism or sexism’ is one example amongst others, where he holds back and is not interested in blanket accusations beyond what he is certain of from his experience. (Those who have such experience can voice those grievances on this forum, and elsewhere, without clashing with him). This is what integrity does. An important detail to be respectful of too.
I hope he keeps going for as long as he feels lead to. I’ll be following them!
hi Cal
You are one small potato. A small member in Christ just as all other members of the body of Christ. :)
Cal is only one of the YouTuber of The Age. :D
No offense.
You are 'matured' enough, by your own definition. :skeptical:
Is your point that you feel I've lifted myself up? If so, can you tell me why you feel that way? When did I say I've matured enough? If I said something like that you probably took it in a way I didn't mean. I certainly have more maturing to do.
I hope he keeps going for as long as he feels lead to. I’ll be following them!
I very much appreciate the support. And what you say I hope is true of me.
As 'least' said, I'm just one small potato. I don't have all the answers, I just have my view and feel led to make these videos at this time. I have no idea how long I will feel led to continue, but I hope people know that I'm not trying to make a name for myself or anything like that. I'm just trying to use the gifts and skills the Lord has given me for the good of his kingdom.
Not everything I say is going to agree with everyone. Realize that I'm not trying to define what should be true for everyone, but rather simply my own beliefs and views.
I'm not anything of any age. :gag:
Again, they focus on process rather than relationship. For example, they concern themselves more with "being transformed" and "making the kingdom" than they do with loving God and getting to know him.
I agree. From my memory, the stress was on individual performance. "Eating Jesus is the way", "turn to your spirit", "let's all gain Christ", and similar phrases, got the individual to focus on their own "experience and enjoyment", versus the experiences of Jesus Christ adjudicated by his relationship with the Father.
The experience of Jesus, on earth, v/v the Father in Heaven is amply documented, and I've covered it in such detail that many readers will be bored to tears, so I'll keep it short. "He (the Father) rescued me (the Son) because He delighted in me" in Psalm 18, for instance clearly was corroborated by NT statements that the Father delighted in the Son. We hardly need to cite them, but here's a slow-pitch softball: "This is My Son, the Beloved, in whom I delight. Hear him", e.g., Matthew 3:17; 2 Pet 1:17; cf Matt 17:5; 12:18.
When you see it, it's soooo obvious what's happening in the text: the Son loves the Father and obeys, the Father delights in the Son and raises him from the dead and gives him glory, and a kingdom that never ends. There's a relationship here that's constantly implied and often stated quite plainly, and is seen consistently in the doings of both parties.
Now, in covering Psalm 18, for instance, either WL would say, "No, God didn't delight in David - David was a sinner", or he'd say, "This is the NT believer enjoying grace on the proper church ground." But in the middle there's a big hole, where the actual person Jesus Christ lived - yes, in "coinherence" (or consubstantiation or what silly physics-level-term we use) - with the Father and by the Holy Spirit.
Sorry to rant but it's been a bit of a peeve - we arguably got short-changed, and the effect's been huge. Instead of focusing on Jesus the Christ as the Way to the Father, we'd focus on self-performance, which was whatever the MOTA wanted us to do, usually for 'ministry' benefit. Then the manipulative demands would begin - look at any HWMR outline, and count how many "we need to" and "we should" and "we must" are embedded in the text. It's rife with them. All WL's unmet needs got placed on the believer, with "making it" and "overcoming" and so forth connected with local church activities and performances. It became about one's relationship to ministry demands, with a distant and abstract "processed God" receding over the conceptual horizon.
E36 - The Basic Problem
Showing that the basic problem of the Lord's Recovery is their valuing their "vision" more than people, and thereby making people means to the end of fulfilling that "vision," resulting in abuse.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4kfH-KlW68
Indiana
10-17-2019, 01:13 PM
E36 - The Basic Problem
Showing that the basic problem of the Lord's Recovery is their valuing their "vision" more than people, and thereby making people means to the end of fulfilling that "vision," resulting in abuse.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4kfH-KlW68
Just plain excellent!
Just plain excellent!
Thanks. :) God is so good!
IStillLoveYou!
10-17-2019, 03:24 PM
E36 - The Basic Problem
Showing that the basic problem of the Lord's Recovery is their valuing their "vision" more than people, and thereby making people means to the end of fulfilling that "vision," resulting in abuse.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4kfH-KlW68
"There is a lack of genuine care for people simply as people, there is a lack of love for people as people"
Cal, you have a gift. Keep going with your videos as the Lord leads you, you're doing a great job and helping people with your words (Ephesians 4:29, Proverbs 12:18) at least they have helped me to better understand the LC and given me the reassurance I needed at my darkest night, I couldn't thank you enough.
God bless you and the rest of pure hearts in this forum.
Psalm 118:5-6 “Out of my distress I called on the Lord; the Lord answered me and set me free. The Lord is on my side; I will not fear. What can man do to me?”
Cal, you have a gift. Keep going with your videos as the Lord leads you, you're doing a great job and helping people with your words (Ephesians 4:29, Proverbs 12:18) at least they have helped me to better understand the LC and given me the reassurance I needed at my darkest night, I couldn't thank you enough.
God bless you and the rest of pure hearts in this forum.
I'm so glad you've been helped! Thank you.
Yes Lord! Bless the folks on this forum, on Facebook and all those who have joined together to help each other!
Curious
10-18-2019, 12:59 AM
As an outsider, its pretty obvious:
'God's economy' implies He's a businessman. A business man is trading, selling a product (the ministry), the agenda is to promote the success of His business. Persons are merely commodities in this grand business. In every business, a commodity is only of value in so far as it's earning its way to expand your business, and drawing in the customers. Otherwise it's expendable. A 'product' has no intrinsic value in itself beyond this.
When you think in terms of 'Gods economy', the language of WL gives it all away. everything Cal is saying.
I never heard the concept of God as 'Father' mentioned at any time by LCers I knew and fellowshipped with. This was an early question mark for me. The sense of the sanctity of human life is therefore not indicated, a clear aspect of Christianity that sets it apart from other religions of the world.... except not if you are in the LC, sadly.
(it occurs to me that maybe WL was thinking about his own business ambitions more than we realise and this spilt over into his theology!)
Jesus died on the cross (apparently) because he was busy 'processing' himself, He was on his own mission. That takes the focus away from being motivated by love or the value He places in you and me. Its as if the core is gone, WL removed it.
As an outsider, its pretty obvious:
'God's economy' implies He's a businessman. A business man is trading, selling a product (the ministry), the agenda is to promote the success of His business. Persons are merely commodities in this grand business. In every business, a commodity is only of value in so far as it's earning its way to expand your business, and drawing in the customers. Otherwise it's expendable. A 'product' has no intrinsic value in itself beyond this.
When you think in terms of 'Gods economy', the language of WL gives it all away. everything Cal is saying.
I never heard the concept of God as 'Father' mentioned at any time by LCers I knew and fellowshipped with. This was an early question mark for me. The sense of the sanctity of human life is therefore not indicated, a clear aspect of Christianity that sets it apart from other religions of the world.... except not if you are in the LC, sadly.
(it occurs to me that maybe WL was thinking about his own business ambitions more than we realise and this spilt over into his theology!)
Jesus died on the cross (apparently) because he was busy 'processing' himself, He was on his own mission. That takes the focus away from being motivated by love or the value He places in you and me. Its as if the core is gone, WL removed it.
Very well said. The LR is all about "accomplishing God's purpose," and people are just means to that end, and thus expendable in the hands of the "co-workers" in that effort. People are valuable only to the extent they further the cause, otherwise they are just a problem.
But such an attitude make God's love hollow. In truth, the only thing that could have motivated Jesus to suffer and die on the cross the way he did was pure love--love both for the Father and for us. He endured it all for us, each one of us. That's love.
awareness
10-18-2019, 08:24 AM
When you think in terms of 'Gods economy', the language of WL gives it all away. everything Cal is saying.
Sorry if I'm in left field on this thread. I shy away from social media, even youTube channels. Sorry Cal.
But Lee's economy was a failure over and over again. Well until he realized he could be successful pushing his books on the saints. That's why he kept Philip.
It reminds me of AmWay, that realized the real money was in selling the training tapes. LSM is still an ongoing vital business ... doing the same thing.
It should be noted, that it's not the church I pictured that Jesus promised to build. In fact, it's not a church by any definition ... but it's the backbone of Lee's LC movement ; "Gods'" Economy.
E37 - A Broader Perspective
Pulling back to view the experience of "the Lord's Recovery" from a less religious, more general view, and proposing a fundamental principle for going forward.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrRSFDIpkLM
Trapped
10-20-2019, 11:02 PM
In a couple episodes you have mentioned Ron putting down listening to the conscience. Do you know where/when that was said and the context? Is there somewhere that could be listened to or anyone who has an excerpt of that?
jesusislord
10-21-2019, 06:06 AM
Can you explain in detail how the LC downplay relationship? I know as a member you can have no friends but hanging around with their members. Is that what you mean?
In a couple episodes you have mentioned Ron putting down listening to the conscience. Do you know where/when that was said and the context? Is there somewhere that could be listened to or anyone who has an excerpt of that?
It's in Episode 32. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PhHvU3v3hY
I don't know the whole context, but his point is clear. He is saying that John Ingalls was wrong for having a conscience problem with the way Philip Lee was handled. He is saying that "life" supersedes the conscience. This is not a healthy teaching.
Can you explain in detail how the LC downplay relationship? I know as a member you can have no friends but hanging around with their members. Is that what you mean?
The LR in general discourages close relationships with anyone not in your immediate family. (I've even heard them teach "don't love your wife too much.") They discourage friendships, both with people inside and outside the LR. Witness Lee often spoke about not being "buddy-buddy" with anyone. These types of relationships were considered "soulish."
The LR also has a strange view of our relationship with God, they talk more about "experiencing" Christ (in a rather impersonal way) than getting to know Him as a person.
And the LR has an extreme view of our relationships with ourselves. They believe in "denying" the self to the point of low self esteem.
All these approaches work together for the LR to isolate you emotionally and take control of your emotional life in order to become the controlling emotional factor in your life. According to them, your sole source of enjoyment should be your experience of God, which of course they define. This furthers their control.
All these teaching are unhealthy.
Trapped
10-21-2019, 12:31 PM
It's in Episode 32. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PhHvU3v3hY
I don't know the whole context, but his point is clear. He is saying that John Ingalls was wrong for having a conscience problem with the way Philip Lee was handled. He is saying that "life" supersedes the conscience. This is not a healthy teaching.
Thanks. Do you know where Ron said that? Was that at the recent summer training or somewhere else?
Indiana
10-21-2019, 12:48 PM
Thanks. Do you know where Ron said that? Was that at the recent summer training or somewhere else?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHjUTJuYBco
Here is the message by Ron Kangas revealing what he thinks of the conscience.
Dec 2018 at the 1:12:18 mark for context - 1:16.04 of the sound byte
Sons to Glory!
10-21-2019, 01:16 PM
As an outsider, its pretty obvious:
'God's economy' implies He's a businessman. A business man is trading, selling a product (the ministry), the agenda is to promote the success of His business. Persons are merely commodities in this grand business. In every business, a commodity is only of value in so far as it's earning its way to expand your business, and drawing in the customers. Otherwise it's expendable. A 'product' has no intrinsic value in itself beyond this.
When you think in terms of 'Gods economy', the language of WL gives it all away. everything Cal is saying.
I never heard the concept of God as 'Father' mentioned at any time by LCers I knew and fellowshipped with. This was an early question mark for me. The sense of the sanctity of human life is therefore not indicated, a clear aspect of Christianity that sets it apart from other religions of the world.... except not if you are in the LC, sadly.
(it occurs to me that maybe WL was thinking about his own business ambitions more than we realise and this spilt over into his theology!)
Jesus died on the cross (apparently) because he was busy 'processing' himself, He was on his own mission. That takes the focus away from being motivated by love or the value He places in you and me. Its as if the core is gone, WL removed it.You make some really good points here! I must admit I never saw "God's Economy" as such a central thing as some did. Even now, it is occasionally brought up here, but I don't think it has quite the same meaning as it did coming from WL. I got a lot out of the "Recovery" but at the same time it wasn't as much about the Person of Christ or our Father, as it was about the machinery that was God's economy. In other words, it was all about the purpose - God eternal has a purpose and He will get it regardless of you . . . and if you get in His way ----> SQUISH! You'll be flattened under the galactic steamroller.
After leaving the LC and drying out for several years, and coming to a place that didn't have that kind of spiritual baggage, I saw it was love that was His main motivation. As WL said near the end of his life, love was missing from the ministry, and I believe that to be quite true. Yes, God has a purpose, but the reason for His purpose is love . . . and the way He executes it is also all in love -- for us! We are brought into the love relationship between our Father and His Son!
A couple years ago we were going through some passages about His administration in His house (which can be called his economy). I saw that the order and the authority in the house was really for one key thing - so that everyone living in the house gets what they need - food, shelter, care, love and other attention. This is why there is an order . . . an administration - so that all God's riches can be loving dispense properly to all in need. It's the same in a human household - there needs to be some basic authority and headship. Why? So everyone can partake freely of all that the household has to offer. It's not "The economy stupid (as Clinton famously said);" it's love.
Trapped
10-21-2019, 02:19 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHjUTJuYBco
Here is the message by Ron Kangas revealing what he thinks of the conscience.
Thanks. Do you have a rough idea where in the 90 minutes Ron talks about it?
E38 - A Broader Perspective, Part 2
More looking at the controlling "Lord's Recovery" from a general view. In this video we encourage self-trust and the right to scrutinize any subject. Also information on Steve Hassan's BITE model of mind-controlling groups.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jATWIyrfTdI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHjUTJuYBco
Here is the message by Ron Kangas revealing what he thinks of the conscience.
Dec 2018 at the 1:12:18 mark for context - 1:16.04 of the sound byte
What a sad mockery of John Ingalls.
Are we supposed to believe such "mockers" like Ran Kangas have now advanced? He is now "reigning" in life?
I call B.S. on this nonsense!
E39 - A Broader Perspective, Part 3
More examination of "the Lord's Recovery" as a undo-influencing, controlling group, looking at how it lines up with Steve Hassan's "Influence Continuum." The results do not reflect well on the LR.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wr2P7ZS6ZLk
googlelight
10-22-2019, 03:09 PM
E39 - A Broader Perspective, Part 3
More examination of "the Lord's Recovery" as a undo-influencing, controlling group, looking at how it lines up with Steve Hassan's "Influence Continuum." The results do not reflect well on the LR.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wr2P7ZS6ZLk
Dear brother, it is so lovely you put this out. Maybe the Lord did make you a sheep-shepherd afterall! People in the LR might react to it, or dont like the things you share, but this is just the system in them reacting, which is totally to be expected. With time, if they are truly seeking our beloved Lord with a pure heart, they will see! In particular I love how you managed to put out some 39 episodes now without bitterness, slander or anything of that sort. You just say it like it is, just as Paul did to timothy; "Alexander the coppersmith did many evil things to me; the Lord will recompense him according to his works." After I have listened to all these episodes in depth and taking notes, the outcome of it is that I have had much wonderful fellowship with a variety of christians in my city, and returned to following my conscience and listening to the anointing. I shared my experience with a couple in the LR and to my great surprise, they agreed to all the things I related to them. I have no intention for them to leave or not to leave, but just to return back to the Lord. Sadly, In LR usually returning to the Lord is equivalent to returning to life-study/MR/blended brothers up-to-date speaking/the Vision/The Ministry/The Speaking of the Body.
You dont believe me? Id say like Johnny Cash:
"There are some people who say we cannot tell...
Well, I was there when it happened and so I guess I ought to know"
Dear brother, it is so lovely you put this out.
"There are some people who say we cannot tell...
Well, I was there when it happened and so I guess I ought to know"
Thanks, gl. I appreciate it. I'm glad you've gotten some good out of them. I've had to throw out some of my attempts because I felt the spirit wasn't right. I just try to be honest and sincere and follow the Lord's guidance. And I try to not take myself too seriously. :)
jesusislord
10-23-2019, 03:09 AM
The LR in general discourages close relationships with anyone not in your immediate family. (I've even heard them teach "don't love your wife too much.") They discourage friendships, both with people inside and outside the LR. Witness Lee often spoke about not being "buddy-buddy" with anyone. These types of relationships were considered "soulish."
The LR also has a strange view of our relationship with God, they talk more about "experiencing" Christ (in a rather impersonal way) than getting to know Him as a person.
And the LR has an extreme view of our relationships with ourselves. They believe in "denying" the self to the point of low self esteem.
All these approaches work together for the LR to isolate you emotionally and take control of your emotional life in order to become the controlling emotional factor in your life. According to them, your sole source of enjoyment should be your experience of God, which of course they define. This furthers their control.
All these teaching are unhealthy.
for them getting married without natural infection is fine, they said it's for the Lord. God obviously created us with the ability to favor and able to attract different gender, why such this weird group of people even exist?!
E40 - A Broader Perspective, Concluding Thoughts
Wrapping up for now the investigation of "the Lord's Recovery" from a more general, sociological standpoint. Finishing up with a word of support and encouragement.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4q_3RTt444
E41 - If You Grew Up in "The Lord's Recovery"
Examining the particular needs of people who grew up in controlling groups, that growing up in a controlling group is not that uncommon, and that a full life post-group is possible.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1732nUnkyo
E42 - Another Indicting Comparison
Comparing "the Lord's Recovery" to Cult Research's (cultresearch.org - Janja Lalich) list of defining characteristics of a cult. The results do not reflect well on "the Lord's Recovery."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHuy9XLdXd8
E43 - The Linchpin of Control
More insight into the true nature of authority, and exposing some of the errors of "the Lord's Recovery's" view.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bka89J3jcHg
Curious
11-03-2019, 12:52 PM
Hello. I want to go a step further to what Cal is saying on episode 43,’ The Linchpin of Control’, on the claim of 'shepherding words' that we should submit weather the leaders are right or wrong. I want to add the following layer of response to that directive: to submit to something that is clearly wrong, or ‘evil’ IS rebellion against God. We can’t serve two masters, when we serve one, we are automatically rebelling against the other.
To even attempt to make a theology out of allowing evil in the pursuit of God, is evil itself. Resisting evil is not easy and can be hugely costly. Going with the flow for self-protection and self- preservation has happened over and over in history, its what the masses do, not the exceptions who create change for the better.
Submitting to evil is rebellion against good (God), it is an inescapable truth. And if the church allows evil then it is tolerating Jezebel, not being the church in Philadelphia any more. Is that what the shepherding words are trying to tell us? They want to switch to be the church in Thyatira, just for a change?
How can the church be a testimony of God to the world if it allows evil to flourish without hinderance? The answer is simple, she can’t. there will be no testimony of God in her if she presents the character of the world. Satan is the ruler of this world, in other words, the world is already in submission to evil. THE difference between the world and the kingdom of God, IS who rules. Satan is God’s enemy, how can submitting to the enemy of your King be obedience to your King? This is completely non-sensical.
How could David have been forgiven and restored to God after Bathsheba if the prophet Nathan had not confronted him? He could’ve lost his relationship with God through it. Accountability is God’s grace to the leader, as much as for any other reason. The purpose is for restoration of that leader, not destruction.
To create a theology to avoid that shows great rebellion against the fundamentals of Christianity. Sorry, LC leaders. It’s a critical failure on your part. Bless you.
It depends on what we consider is "wrong." LSM built their teaching around Moses marrying a foreigner, and Noah drinking too much wine. They then infer that any error by The Deputy Authority, regardless of seriousness, is only a test to the rest of God's people. Any and all criticisms of this Deputy will result in swift judgment from God.
But look at the fruit of such a teaching. Has God really given a carte blanche license for some "Deputy" to sin? What then are the limits placed on his failures? And how is it that the Deputy alone gets to decide that he alone is the Deputy? At least the Pope has a college of Cardinals to select him.
Think about the lust for power which then inevitably develops in fallen leaders. Who would not want to be above the law concerning all their failures. I have long been convinced that the constant rivalry between Anaheim and Cleveland was due to such perks for the winner. Could not Lee's successor, the subsequent MOTA, now eliminate his rival by fabricated charges resulting in quarantine.
Does not these MOTA teachings, by definition, result in ecclesiastical politics? Is this not ruling like the Gentiles? Did not our Lord specifically warn us about this?
Unregistered
11-03-2019, 11:01 PM
For the pity of the 'sisters', calling for comments on Minoru Chen's messages to the LSM LC LR 'sisters'. 2019 messages. And 18 lessons for sisters!
Search : 2019 NorCal Sisters Conference
V
Think about the lust for power which then inevitably develops in fallen leaders. Who would not want to be above the law concerning all their failures. I have long been convinced that the constant rivalry between Anaheim and Cleveland was due to such perks for the winner. Could not Lee's successor, the subsequent MOTA, now eliminate his rival by fabricated charges resulting in quarantine.
Does not these MOTA teachings, by definition, result in ecclesiastical politics? Is this not ruling like the Gentiles? Did not our Lord specifically warn us about this?
Just read about a young man in the Philippines who left the RCC, tried several Protestant groups, flirted with atheism, then finally decided that he could recover God's original intended church, with himself as Executive Minister (naturally). This was 1914. He managed to convince thousands to follow him over several decades, then his son took over & globalised it and now they have several million adherents. Seems they teach that salvation is contingent on church membership, as all other groups are apostate.
Now the grandson's in charge, and he's purged other family members including his mother(!), and he's free to do as he wants. He's now the Executive Minister, after all. They make every congregation repeat the sermon from HQ every Sunday morning, play videos promoting the Executive Minister's leadership, warn members to stay away from the internet, social media and anyone who criticizes the church leadership, or who publicly note the EM's lavish lifestyle....
The more I read about such controlling and abusive sects, the deeper my suspicion that these aren't flawed five-talented ministers - Drunken Noah, anyone? - but rather one- and two- talented ones aiming for positions to which they've no claim to. It's exactly the gentile-styled "leadership" the Lord warned us about. Ohio is right.
Here's a powerful prayer as antidote for such fallen aims. Psalm 19:13(a) says, "Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins". Those who fall into the sin of presumption will be sent down - Jesus' teaching made this clear. We're not ignorant of the enemy's schemes. There's little difference between Felix Y. Manalo and Watchman Nee, except the vagaries of geography and culture.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iglesia_ni_Cristo
AFor the pity of the 'sisters', calling for comments on Minoru Chen's messages to the LSM LC LR 'sisters'. 2019 messages. And 18 lessons for sisters!
Search : 2019 NorCal Sisters Conference
Can you provide a transcript, or at least a synopsis?
And I'm still waiting to hear why they sell books by Mary McDonough et al, then tell women that their place is to be silent in church.
The discussion of womens' roles in the contemporary church is not without some difficulty. But we should at least expect one's position to be coherent and self consistent.
Unregistered
11-05-2019, 04:41 AM
https://player.fm/series/conferences-2415834
https://player.fm/series/conferences-2415834
Will look into this.
E44 - Five New Articles on shepherdingwords.com - "The Lord's Recovery" Movement of Witness Lee
Examining more misleading information put out by "the co-workers in 'the Lords's Recovery' in North America."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rGpWkEJrzY
E45 - Looking at Minoru Chen's Messages to Sisters
Some commentary on messages regarding the role of women in "the Lord's Recovery."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpxRTNlTCHE
E46 - A Look at the Netflix Documentary "Cults Explained "
Commentary on the well-done Netflix "Cults, Explained' documentary.
Episode video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nqx3SDecWo
Documentary video here: http://bit.ly/CultsExplained
byHismercy
11-11-2019, 10:59 PM
E45 - Looking at Minoru Chen's Messages to Sisters
Some commentary on messages regarding the role of women in "the Lord's Recovery."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpxRTNlTCHE
https://youtu.be/SdXXUIvhP30
Hi Cal, just wanted to share this perspective from ones discussing the last few minutes of Minorus message to the sisters. I think you said you didn't listen to the whole thing? I didn't either, but this member (members?) found some cause for concern.
It just seems like the culture of silence Minoru is promoting amongst the sisters speaks in defiance of Gods' word....in the council of many is safety.....
It just seems like the culture of silence Minoru is promoting amongst the sisters speaks in defiance of Gods' word....in the council of many is safety.....We're still waiting for the culture of silence to be broken.
MC: "And now we'll address any questions or issues you may have."
Sister X: ""I'm wondering when I can have my book published by LSM, to take its place besides the one by Mary McDonough. Why is LSM selling her book online, and not mine?"
MC: "I'm sorry, my dear sisters, but the door for revelation to sisters is now closed. Once Brother Nee put quill to parchment, that age ended, and a new age began. But don't worry, there's a place for you today, in the children's meetings."
Sister Y: "Brother Minoru, we can see in ministry literature that sisters once held responsible positions next to Lee and Nee. In writing on the resumption of Watchman Nee's ministry, for example, WL said that only two sisters sat up front with him as Nee talked, while the rest of the congregation was seated apart. So what happened to the role of women in the church?"
MC: "Again, my dear sisters, you have to understand that the age changed. Today, your responsibility is to be docile and listen to my patronizing lectures."
Sister Z: "Did anyone ever tell you that you're full of baloney?"
The counsel of many will be restored, as is stated in Proverbs. In many counselors, battles are one, and safety is secured. May the Lord grant all of us courage to seek this, and to speak out our counsel, and not give up. Minoru's a Christian confessor, yet at present he seems willing to live with such glaring contradictions (among many), and then becomes a tool of oppression and control.
In the church, it's the age of Jesus Christ, not the age of spiritual giants nor the age of small potatoes. Each one has a voice in the common counsel, and none should be denied. There's no male or female, young or old, slave or free man, Jew or Greek. rich or poor. If LSM Blendeds won't step up and lead believers into this, someone else will. A new day has dawned, the saints are going on.
https://youtu.be/SdXXUIvhP30
Hi Cal, just wanted to share this perspective from ones discussing the last few minutes of Minorus message to the sisters. I think you said you didn't listen to the whole thing? I didn't either, but this member (members?) found some cause for concern.
It just seems like the culture of silence Minoru is promoting amongst the sisters speaks in defiance of Gods' word....in the council of many is safety.....
I took down that message after realizing it gave people an impression I didn't mean to give.
E45 - Looking at Minoru Chen's Messages to Sisters
Some second thoughts on this sensitive subject.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shyP4PW0t90
E45 - Looking at Minoru Chen's Messages to Sisters
Some second thoughts on this sensitive subject.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shyP4PW0t90
byHismercy
11-12-2019, 02:06 PM
The only portion of the sisters message I listened to was that final 9 minutes in the link I posted. Minorus' message was very clear. When women speak, it is gossip. It saddens me to know this is the double speak all those sisters are receiving as 'coming from God' or 'a word from God'. I know that is what I used to think about the messages coming from the LC elder brothers.
Again, this conflicts with Gods will for us, coming together in 2s or 3s, in fellowship, in prayer. I don't know how that can happen if women are being indoctrinated that their interpersonal communication and sharing is nothing but gossip and should be avoided. Let me say here, I agree with God, gossip is not for believers. However, to proclaim this from the pulpit, and the weight this gives the leadership, is so wrong. The Lord Spirit is capable of leading our communications in holiness, and we can also know His voice.
Thanks for looking at it again, Cal. I probably don't know enough about this matter to comment either. But then again, I can't stomach listening to this 'ministry' anymore.
byHismercy
11-12-2019, 02:06 PM
The only portion of the sisters message I listened to was that final 9 minutes in the link I posted. Minorus' message was very clear. When women speak, it is gossip. It saddens me to know this is the double speak all those sisters are receiving as 'coming from God' or 'a word from God'. I know that is what I used to think about the messages coming from the LC elder brothers.
Again, this conflicts with Gods will for us, coming together in 2s or 3s, in fellowship, in prayer. I don't know how that can happen if women are being indoctrinated that their interpersonal communication and sharing is nothing but gossip and should be avoided. Let me say here, I agree with God, gossip is not for believers. However, to proclaim this from the pulpit, and the weight this gives the leadership, is so wrong. The Lord Spirit is capable of leading our communications in holiness, and we can also know His voice.
Thanks for looking at it again, Cal. I probably don't know enough about this matter to comment either. But then again, I can't stomach listening to this 'ministry' anymore.
byHismercy
11-12-2019, 02:32 PM
We're still waiting for the culture of silence to be broken.
MC: "And now we'll address any questions or issues you may have."
Sister X: ""I'm wondering when I can have my book published by LSM, to take its place besides the one by Mary McDonough. Why is LSM selling her book online, and not mine?"
MC: "I'm sorry, my dear sisters, but the door for revelation to sisters is now closed. Once Brother Nee put quill to parchment, that age ended, and a new age began. But don't worry, there's a place for you today, in the children's meetings."
Sister Y: "Brother Minoru, we can see in ministry literature that sisters once held responsible positions next to Lee and Nee. In writing on the resumption of Watchman Nee's ministry, for example, WL said that only two sisters sat up front with him as Nee talked, while the rest of the congregation was seated apart. So what happened to the role of women in the church?"
MC: "Again, my dear sisters, you have to understand that the age changed. Today, your responsibility is to be docile and listen to my patronizing lectures."
Sister Z: "Did anyone ever tell you that you're full of baloney?"
The counsel of many will be restored, as is stated in Proverbs. In many counselors, battles are one, and safety is secured. May the Lord grant all of us courage to seek this, and to speak out our counsel, and not give up. Minoru's a Christian confessor, yet at present he seems willing to live with such glaring contradictions (among many), and then becomes a tool of oppression and control.
In the church, it's the age of Jesus Christ, not the age of spiritual giants nor the age of small potatoes. Each one has a voice in the common counsel, and none should be denied. There's no male or female, young or old, slave or free man, Jew or Greek. rich or poor. If LSM Blendeds won't step up and lead believers into this, someone else will. A new day has dawned, the saints are going on.
Amen to moving on with Jesus, and away from this insidious LC imbalance. The Lord is awesome and I love witnessing the portion He gave to each member, both brothers and sisters. Balance is the word used and recognized in many Christian voices and perspectives, and it is the balance I so appreciate. Imbalance seems to be the fruit of believing your own little group has the only authentic view/speaking from God/practices.....
This morning I can't stop thinking how balanced everything will be when we are in His presence in heaven. He will restore it. Just as He will restore our souls!
E47 - Women in God's Kingdom - The Original Intent
A look at God's original intent for men and women, and how the improvements in the world's culture just might be the work of God.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcto5MmhvMM
E48 - Wrapping Things Up
A summary of what I've spoken before. In a glide path to 50 episodes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDIcNkeMP7U
E49 - Three Life Principles
Presenting three basic life principles which are based on the two greatest commandments, and showing how "the Lord's Recovery" missed them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3u4Nsw6JxaE
E50 - The Power of Knowing God
Explaining that, from my personal experience, the only way to be truly free is to break through to God.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7d4CyZQoPi4
E51 - Covering Up, Not Covering
First part of examining "the Lord's Recovery's" misinterpretation and misuse of the biblical story of Noah's curse of Ham and Canaan.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N55gxAg0IlU
E52 - Covering Up, Not Covering, Part 2
Second part of examining "the Lord's Recovery's" misinterpretation and misuse of the biblical story of Noah's curse of Ham and Canaan.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIhJKz8Zb2w
Curious
12-02-2019, 05:58 PM
Hi, I have just got to add my 2 cents worth here.
I’m joining my comment to this teaching on: Noah cursed, and it caused great harm. It did not reflect God’s ways but rather the fallen human nature, in opposition to God’s character and intent. That’s a brief summary of what I hear in episode 52.
Now I want to go ahead in time to the establishment of the twelve tribes if Israel. To establish something God could bless, I see a reversal of what Noah did….I see the engaging of the principles of repentance and forgiveness as laying a necessary foundation for moving forward as the people of God.
Joseph’s brothers hurt him, Benjamin, and their father through their anger that they were treated badly while he was given special status. They sinned in a cruel way towards Joseph. Joseph was deeply hurt by what they did. Yet in the end they showed the depth of their repentance, and Joseph extended his heart and forgave them, genuinely. (…Another brief summary).
(A brief note, lots of bible commentators are harsh on the Joseph’s brothers. It helps to look at them with more compassion than traditional thinking affords them).
The story is a great example of how people can hurt each other in families, especially with favouritism. And is illustrates the principle in the Lord’s prayer ‘forgive us our sins (repentance) as we forgive those who sin against us (forgiveness).
As a conclusion, Israel could never have been established with its twelve tribes if this reconciliation did not happen. The forming of Israel as a nation depended on it. that is very significant.
Back to Noah, he could’ve repented to his son for his outburst. Ham could’ve forgiven his father, and it could’ve all been resolved using principles of God’s Kingdom, and the division would not have persisted. God’s prescription for repentance and forgiveness are His antidote for division, and destruction of relationships. Noah and his sons didn’t know that, and the rest is history, as outlined on the channel. The LRM of WL cannot avoid ongoing division unless they do it God’s way. God’s way works, as you can see from the story of Joseph, and is clearly instructed in the new testament.
By ‘cursing’ dissenters the LRM are acting in spiritual blindness and are validating the flesh as described by Cal. Noah didn’t know better, he wasn’t provided a new testament copy of the bible!!. But we don't have that excuse anymore, and neither does the LRM.
By ‘cursing’ dissenters the LRM are acting in spiritual blindness and are validating the flesh as described by Cal. Noah didn’t know better, he wasn’t provided a new testament copy of the bible!!. But we don't have that excuse anymore, and neither does the LRM.
If the Recovery teaching about "covering" were an actual truth of the Bible, then shouldn't King David have cursed the prophet Nathan for not "covering" him? (II Samuel 12)
David was, after all, the greatest anointed king of Israel. If ever there was needed this "covering" teaching it was for him.
Hi, I have just got to add my 2 cents worth here.
By ‘cursing’ dissenters the LRM are acting in spiritual blindness and are validating the flesh as described by Cal. Noah didn’t know better, he wasn’t provided a new testament copy of the bible!!. But we don't have that excuse anymore, and neither does the LRM.
Well said, Curious.
If the Recovery teaching about "covering" were an actual truth of the Bible, then shouldn't King David have cursed the prophet Nathan for not "covering" him? (II Samuel 12)
David was, after all, the greatest anointed king of Israel. If ever there was needed this "covering" teaching it was for him.
They might say that Nathan "uncovered" David in private. But the Bible records the uncovering. So much for David's privacy. They might said, well, David is not here anymore. But neither is Witness Lee. So why do they need to keep "covering" him? Wouldn't it be better if everyone was able to learn from his failures, as we are from David's? But then his mystique as MOTA would be compromised. Turns out that's what protecting his image is all about.
byHismercy
12-04-2019, 01:08 AM
Because as quick as the MOTA gets uncovered(thank you, LCD) the book buying stops and the book burning begins.
E53 - Covering Up, Not Covering, Part 3
Third part of examining "the Lord's Recovery's" misinterpretation and misuse of the biblical story of Noah's curse of Ham and Canaan.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRBSctAYZ2w
E54 - The One New Testament Ministry?
Examining shepherdingwords.com's historical revisionistic claims about Witness Lee's "unique ministry of the age."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rzt90Qa7UOs
Curious
12-06-2019, 11:53 PM
On episode 54 you question the confidence in which on their 'shepherding words' site, the apostles of the LR flatly deny what any ex-LC person knows to be, some of the very clear, core, defining beleifs about themselves. This is indeed, quite surprising, and you raise the question of what they may be up to.
To learn about the actual teachings of the localchurch, for a long time I tapped my questions into Google.... 'Witness Lee on (.......)', whatever I was puzzled about. It took me to 'life studies' and exerpts from various of his books. Some things I found that were the most revealing in the way that I could not accept as a christian, I can't find them anymore. They don't appear from the same word prompts.
I didn't keep a record of where they were so i can't trace them..... it's a while ago now. I think its possible they have re-edited WL's writings as supplied on the Internet, that way they can adapt, remove some of the more judgemental, hostile to Christianity in general, and ridiculous things, without acknowledging any mistake or alteration.
That's my suspicion....They are slowly and secretly adapting themselves to a more user-friendly model of operation. While denying any adaption. Even younger LCers were more accepting of other Christians than older LCers I experienced. That's my theory to offer anyway.
Curious
12-07-2019, 12:09 AM
On episode 54 you question the confidence in which on their 'shepherding words' site, the apostles of the LR flatly deny what any ex-LC person knows to be, some of the very clear, core, defining beleifs about themselves. This is indeed, quite surprising, and you raise the question of what they may be up to.
To learn about the actual teachings of the localchurch, for a long time I tapped my questions into Google.... 'Witness Lee on (.......)', whatever I was puzzled about. It took me to 'life studies' and exerpts from various of his books. Some things I found that were the most revealing in the way that I could not accept as a christian, I can't find them anymore. They don't appear from the same word prompts.
I didn't keep a record of where they were so i can't trace them..... it's a while ago now. I think its possible they have re-edited WL's writings as supplied on the Internet, that way they can adapt, remove some of the more judgemental, hostile-to-Christianity in general, and ridiculous things, without acknowledging any mistake or alteration.
That's my suspicion....They are slowly and secretly adapting themselves to a more user-friendly model of operation. While denying any adaption. Even younger LCers were more accepting of other Christians than older LCers I experienced. That's my theory to offer anyway.
Curious, I think there is some of what you say going on. And the denial and duplicity which accompanies it, particularly the accusing others of slander, who are simply reporting what the LR has at least internally proclaimed and taught, is unacceptable.
If they are trying to improve their beliefs and message that is good, but to go about it by denying they have held to bad beliefs in the past, and further to accuse others of slander who testify to that, is not encouraging at all.
They are either clueless or liars.
Curious
12-07-2019, 08:29 PM
I agree with you Cal. If an organisation is fundamentally honest and able to be responsible, and take the rap itself for its own past mistakes and problems, then everyone is safe.
No-one is safe in an organisation where those in charge are fundamentally blame-shifters and liars, regardless of their potential doctrinal improvements. The habit of lying is problematic enough on its own and reveal where their hearts are at. Protecting, defending and justifying themselves and their pride while caring not who they turf under the bus to do so, reveals much about their heart and motives. Lies hurt people, there’s good reason why one of the 10 commandments instructs us not to do it. Its as plain and simple as that.
To lay themselves out honestly would be for them to trust God for the outcome, an act of actual faith on their part. To lie and cover up reveals no faith on God, nor fear of Him, nor love for Him (as to love him is to love His ways). That equation adds up to....no real belief in Him!
They do not demonstrate integrity, and in refusing to be vulnerable or duly responsible, they therefore remain immature, both personally and corporately. What a dangerous thing for anybody to offer trust into such a system. Anyone who does so puts themselves at great risk of harm, needlessly.
But we can all learn important lessons from exposure to this organisation, lessons that can be a great protection going forwards. That's the positive aspect which is ultimately the most important thing. May we all be transparent, honest, responsible for our own actions, and have the courage to be vulnerable, and never underestimate the value of integrity.
Lastly, you don't have to be a rocket scientist to realise that in order to survive they do have to alter things that WL taught. Sites like this forum help them to identify what those things are, as they will be hard to see from within their closed system. They want to survive, but God doesn't endorse lying, to serve Him you have to play by His rules.
Curious, I think there is some of what you say going on. And the denial and duplicity which accompanies it, particularly the accusing others of slander, who are simply reporting what the LR has at least internally proclaimed and taught, is unacceptable.
If they are trying to improve their beliefs and message that is good, but to go about it by denying they have held to bad beliefs in the past, and further to accuse others of slander who testify to that, is not encouraging at all.
They are either clueless or liars.Or maybe, like some other fringe groups of the past that eventually became more mainstream Christians, they are on the first steps of a journey from their fringe back into the fold.
Naaahhhh
E55 - Max, John and Other Abuses
Examining the half-truths and lies presented by "the Lord's Recovery" about how it handled Max Rapoport, John Ingalls and other abuses.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAR5WQ3cJMs
Indiana
12-10-2019, 04:38 PM
E55 - Max, John and Other Abuses
Examining the half-truths and lies presented by "the Lord's Recovery" about how it handled Max Rapoport, John Ingalls and other abuses.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAR5WQ3cJMs
http://www.ourneedtoexamineourselves.com/AnaheimAnnualCorporateMeeting.pdf
John Ingalls explains his experience in the required annual business meeting referred to in Shepherding Words. Brother Lee had strategically moved Minoru Chen into position as an elder in Anaheim.
Excerpt
"The business meeting and election were to take place on the Lord’s Day, March 5th. On Thursday evening, March 2nd, Al and I met with Minoru Chen and Philip Lim to discuss the agenda for the business meeting. Minoru made a point very strongly that according to our custom the directors should always be elders. In fact, without our knowledge, in the preceding Lord’s Day meeting on the Chinese-speaking side, Minoru had educated the saints to this effect, pointing out that in the coming election for directors, they should do the same on the English-speaking side. This we declined to do in the present divided situation, since the by-laws expressly stated that any member of the corporation could be nominated and elected to the post. We anticipated that this time we would have to vote by ballot as there would likely be more than one candidate nominated.
http://www.ourneedtoexamineourselves.com/AnaheimAnnualCorporateMeeting.pdf
John Ingalls explains his experience in the required annual business meeting referred to in Shepherding Words. Brother Lee had strategically moved Minoru Chen into position as an elder in Anaheim.
Excerpt
"The business meeting and election were to take place on the Lord’s Day, March 5th. On Thursday evening, March 2nd, Al and I met with Minoru Chen and Philip Lim to discuss the agenda for the business meeting. Minoru made a point very strongly that according to our custom the directors should always be elders. In fact, without our knowledge, in the preceding Lord’s Day meeting on the Chinese-speaking side, Minoru had educated the saints to this effect, pointing out that in the coming election for directors, they should do the same on the English-speaking side. This we declined to do in the present divided situation, since the by-laws expressly stated that any member of the corporation could be nominated and elected to the post. We anticipated that this time we would have to vote by ballot as there would likely be more than one candidate nominated.
Interesting! Reminds me of the Midwest quarantines.
As DCP swept in to steal meeting halls, all the Midwest LC's were suddenly forced to examine their bylaws and prep the saints for contentious elections.
E56 - "Assailing" the Local Ground
More exposing the fallacies of "the Lord's Recovery's" teaching of "the local ground of oneness."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyEdrmkVX-g
E57 - Ron Kangas, the Demeaning of Women and the Real Cause of "Turmoils"
Examining the words of Ron Kangas, the demeaning of women and the real cause of so-called turmoils in "the Lord's Recovery."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGVbCk8tdSo
E58 - "The Lord's Recovery's" Wrongheaded Views of Political and Social Activism
Refuting "the Lord's Recovery's" backward claims that Christians should not be involved in political or social activism.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-N6tG8NR1JM
E59 - Analyzing a Typical Ron Kangas Rant
Exposing "the Lord's Recovery's" demagogic us-versus-them mentality.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRSqGyPW5pA
E60 - More on Ron Kangas's Rant - "The Lord's Recovery" Movement of Witness Lee
More insight into the demagoguery of "the Lord's Recovery"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csH_A1KIAd0
E61 - The Greatest Among Us
Exposing the emptiness of "the Lord's Recovery's" claim of being "God's best."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXOS02lN43Y
jesusislord
01-21-2020, 03:39 PM
Hi Cal, maybe you want to speak about the fruits of exclusivity?
Christian Piano and Instrumental Music
Five and a half hours of gentle Christian piano and instrumental music. Classic and modern hymns and inspirational selections. Blackscreen for listening using your television.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3dW7M0b_30
E62 - Just One More "One True Way" - "The Lord's Recovery" Movement of Witness Lee
Shedding more light on "the Lord's Recovery's" confusing themselves with their ideal.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K67yBa6GYyo
Trapped
02-03-2020, 01:46 PM
Thanks for all the time and work you've put into these 62 episodes, Cal.
Thanks for all the time and work you've put into these 62 episodes, Cal.
You're welcome. And thank you, too.
Hi Cal, maybe you want to speak about the fruits of exclusivity?
Sorry I missed this. I feel like I've covered this some. But I will think and pray about about it some more and see where the Lord leads. Thanks for the suggestion.
E63 - Truly a Legacy of Shame - "The Lord's Recovery" Movement of Witness Lee
Quotations from leaders of aberrant groups down through history show that "the Lord's Recovery's" claims of being the unique move of God are nothing new.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdF-zGteMgo
Curious
02-11-2020, 05:28 PM
Wow, this episode is fabulous. All the episodes are good, and great, but this one really takes the axe to the root of the tree. And in a broader way. ANY group claiming this set of 'delusions' is exposed and therefore this episode is perhaps a very necessary guide to those leaving, as to what may feel familiar and attractive but is to be a red flag.
I have a friend who has gone through three exclusive groups, each time believing themselves to be in 'the one' true church. This friend cares nothing for listening to anyone outside their current group for advice, including me. This information is a great way to avoid that fate for those leaving the LC. Excellent work, and very relevant.
jesusislord
02-11-2020, 08:41 PM
E63 - Truly a Legacy of Shame - "The Lord's Recovery" Movement of Witness Lee
Quotations from leaders of aberrant groups down through history show that "the Lord's Recovery's" claims of being the unique move of God are nothing new.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdF-zGteMgo
this is a masterpiece. But Cal you should share positive experience after you left and join other groups. I think for that you can have another 50+ videos, your channel is helpful for those who had left and still a believer of Jesus.
this is a masterpiece. But Cal you should share positive experience after you left and join other groups. I think for that you can have another 50+ videos, your channel is helpful for those who had left and still a believer of Jesus.
Thanks JiL, I have shared some positive experiences since the LR, things, but I will share some more. Thanks!
E64 - What to Do? Where to Go? What to Be? - "The Lord's Recovery" Movement of Witness Lee
Thoughts on some questions I've received and on going forward from wherever you find yourself.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxlI7in83IM
Curious
02-13-2020, 01:15 PM
An old-fashioned saying that I think sums up the relationship between loving others, trust, and one's having ownership of one's own choices and responsibilities in life goes like this:
'Love many, trust few, always paddle your own canoe!'
I say that over in my mind whenever something pops up around me that could compromise one of those 3 values. I think it harmonises well with episode 64.
byHismercy
02-14-2020, 10:18 PM
E64 - What to Do? Where to Go? What to Be? - "The Lord's Recovery" Movement of Witness Lee
Thoughts on some questions I've received and on going forward from wherever you find yourself.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxlI7in83IM
Very encouraging, brother! The Lord was amening your message within!
An old-fashioned saying that I think sums up the relationship between loving others, trust, and one's having ownership of one's own choices and responsibilities in life goes like this:
'Love many, trust few, always paddle your own canoe!'
I say that over in my mind whenever something pops up around me that could compromise one of those 3 values. I think it harmonises well with episode 64.
Love it. Thanks, Curious!
Very encouraging, brother! The Lord was amening your message within!
Glad it helped!
Hey Everybody,
I wanted to thank everyone for their prayers and support. MyOpinionsFree would have never been possible without all I gained from Local Church Discussions and all my dear friends (and adversaries) here. It's been an amazing ride seeing our wonderful God step in and be our Defender and Vindicator. Please keep praying that the lies that blind our dear brothers and sisters in the LR will fall away and that the Lord's Church will be united in Him, and Him alone. You guys are the best! Take care.
Cal
E65- Examining Witness Lee's "God's Eternal Purpose and Economy" - "The Lord's Recovery" Movement
Taking a look at what's right and wrong about Witness Lee's view of God's purpose and economy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lW2EfhoU6uQ
E66 - Some Humble Advice to Ron Kangas and the Other Co-workers in the LR in North America
Some sincere tongue-in-cheek advice to the continuation of the one true ministry of the age.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hr1eYg2jGDo
Trapped
02-20-2020, 09:56 PM
Cal, this was a great example of the Lord's recovery's hypocritical positions taken to their logical end.
Honestly I'm surprised the blended brothers haven't contacted you directly yet to join their ranks - you represented their teachings perfectly! :hysterical:
Cal, this was a great example of the Lord's recovery's hypocritical positions taken to their logical end.
Honestly I'm surprised the blended brothers haven't contacted you directly yet to join their ranks - you represented their teachings perfectly! :hysterical:
Thanks Trapped!
I'm awaiting the call.
E67 - Speech and Thought Control in Action - "The Lord's Recovery" Movement of Witness Lee
In "the Lord's Recovery," crisis control equals speech and thought control.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtZ3BsZrt0I
E68 - Partial Inspiration, Temporal Discipline and Endless Self-Promotion
Seemingly everything "the Lord's Recovery" teaches is an opportunity for them to promote themselves.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blt3RPv5h6g
E68 - Partial Inspiration, Temporal Discipline and Endless Self-Promotion
Seemingly everything "the Lord's Recovery" teaches is an opportunity for them to promote themselves.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blt3RPv5h6g
Self-Promotion is always at the expense of God's Firstborn Son!
E69 - No, Witness Lee wasn't an Apostle - "The Lord's Recovery" Movement of Witness Lee
Responding to the shepherdingwords.com article on apostles and co-workers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pyng2LDKbI
E70 - The Appalling "Apostle" Effect - "The Lord's Recovery" Movement of Witness Lee
More examination into the bad fruit produced by claiming apostleship.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlW8_coUuG0
byHismercy
03-07-2020, 06:16 PM
E69 - No, Witness Lee wasn't an Apostle - "The Lord's Recovery" Movement of Witness Lee
Responding to the shepherdingwords.com article on apostles and co-workers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pyng2LDKbI
Hey Cal, I realized later you covered everything I mentioned in my comment. (I listened to this installment with giggling 6 and 11 year olds literally crawling all over me.) Next time I will slow down and listen to the whole thing before I start ranting.
Hey Cal, I realized later you covered everything I mentioned in my comment. (I listened to this installment with giggling 6 and 11 year olds literally crawling all over me.) Next time I will slow down and listen to the whole thing before I start ranting.
I didn't think you were ranting. I always appreciate your comments They've been a big help. Yep, kids and puppies can be a distraction, but they are worth it. I'm dealing with the latter right now.
byHismercy
03-08-2020, 12:34 PM
Awe, well puppies are at least as much fun as children. They probably go to bed easier too. ;-)
Indiana
03-09-2020, 12:22 PM
E70 - The Appalling "Apostle" Effect - "The Lord's Recovery" Movement of Witness Lee
More examination into the bad fruit produced by claiming apostleship.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlW8_coUuG0
Brothers at LSM / E-manna appear to be following Cal Freeman's posts on Apostleship. Their fellowship might help us, while they, perhaps, might pick up key and essential points from Cal.
The Fellowship of the Apostles
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Bible Verses~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Acts 2:42 And they continued steadfastly in the teaching
and the fellowship of the apostles, in the breaking of bread and the prayers.
2 Corinthians 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Words of Ministry~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[Part 2 of 2]
The word "fellowship" used in Acts 2:42 and 1 John 1:3
indicates the putting away of private interest and the joining with others for a certain common purpose. Hence, to have fellowship with the apostles, to be in the fellowship of the apostles, and to have fellowship with the Triune God in the apostles' fellowship, is to put away our private interests and join with the apostles and the Triune God for the carrying out of God's purpose. Our participation in the apostles' enjoyment of the Triune God is our joining with them and with the Triune God for His divine purpose, which is common to God, the apostles, and all the believers.
The fellowship of the apostles is open, receiving all kinds of genuine believers in Christ. For example, this fellowship receives believers who have been immersed and believers who have been sprinkled. Furthermore, those in this fellowship do not require that believers be immersed only by them.
However, certain sects insist that only their baptism is valid. They may insist that a believer be baptized again if he wants to join their group. This is an illustration of a fellowship that is different from the fellowship of the apostles.
Do you know how to determine whether or not a particular Christian group is a sect? One way to determine this is to check whether or not that group receives all real believers in Christ. Any group that does not receive all true believers is a sect and is not practicing the fellowship of
the apostles.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~
Bible verses are taken from the Recovery Version of the
Bible and Words of Ministry, from Witness Lee, Life-
study of Acts, pp. 93-94. Both are published by Living
Stream Ministry, Anaheim, CA.
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googlelight123
03-12-2020, 09:19 PM
E70 - The Appalling "Apostle" Effect - "The Lord's Recovery" Movement of Witness Lee
More examination into the bad fruit produced by claiming apostleship.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlW8_coUuG0
Thank you for this profound video.
I got EF. 4:16 while listening.
The Body.. Builds up itself in... love
Not through the ministry of the age, or Gods economy... In love. Thank you. This is true light...it has set me free
Thank you for this profound video.
I got EF. 4:16 while listening.
The Body.. Builds up itself in... love
Not through the ministry of the age, or Gods economy... In love. Thank you. This is true light...it has set me free
So glad it helped! Blessings to you!
E71 - Looking at a Defense and Confirmation Project Publication, Part 1 - The LR Movement of W. Lee
Responding to a DCP publication which defends "the Lord's Recovery's" criticism of everyone but themselves.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiS7jsHkQFU
E72 - Coronavirus and "the Lord's Recovery" Questions vs Questionings - The LR Movement of W. Lee
Checking in about the coronavirus, and making some parallels with "the Lord's Recovery"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TW6WgayLQVs
E73 - Coronavirus and "the Lord's Recovery" Commenting on a Comment - The LR Movement of W. Lee
More discussion on the coronavirus and "the Lord's Recovery" and addressing a listener's comment.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uoTTYFYRZY
E74 - The Top 10 Things "the Lord's Recovery Got Right - "The Lord's Recovery" of Witness Lee
My top ten list of the best of "the Lord's Recovery"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gskEKEak7-g
Curious
03-26-2020, 03:38 PM
Episode 74, I just want to say, excellent! So clear-thinking and wise to seperate the good out, and name it. Amongst this list are the things that I liked and was drawn to, the functioning of the believers to share together that makes things interactive and alive, rather than always sitting and listening to a speaker only. And pray-reading within the context Cal outlines has really helped me absorb mentally and spiritually from what I read, a practise I have taken on with me too.
This episode is excellent in helping to redeem the good from this movement, cutting through the confusion, which is one of the biggest issues for all of us impacted by the LRM. I predict it to be of immense benefit to those leaving and trying to sort it all out. Its really a true 'balancing word'!
I am looking forward to next episode!
Episode 74, I just want to say, excellent!
Thank you, Curious! I appreciate your prayers asking the Lord to give me wisdom in what I speak. It's easy to be a smart-aleck. In fact... it comes naturally to me! :D
But I need to be tenderhearted, too. Our amazing God knows how to act in every situation. He is my example. Thanks again, and stay healthy!
E75 - The Top 5 Things "the Lord's Recovery Got Wrong - "The Lord's Recovery" of Witness Lee
My top five list of the worst of "the Lords' Recovery"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UEZj-2Nb2I
E76 - Get Me to the Church On TIme - "The Lord's Recovery" of Witness Lee
How "the Lord's Recovery" has missed what God really wants us to do.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGNqx1jxAdA
E77 - The Failed Experiment - "The Lord's Recovery" of Witness Lee
Update on the progress of the channel, some odds and ends, and a look at the failed experiment called "the Lord's Recovery."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RglabkiR6II
E78 - Ten Things "The Lord's Recovery" Should Do to Reform - "The Lord's Recovery" of Witness Lee
Ten Things "the Lord's Recovery" must do to have a future besides being a fringe, suspect group.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxBbmXF29ac
Freedom
04-14-2020, 02:42 PM
This is a great video. So many of the problems within the LC are related to things like their authority structure or lack of humility. It's hard to believe how they can remain so oblivious to some of these readily apparent problems like their public perception, members leaving, etc.
Before I left, it seemed like there was was an ever-increasing disregard for current members who were struggling or who might be considering leaving. Even just in general, the LC didn't give any thought to making the environment the type of place that people would want to be part of.
TLFisher
04-17-2020, 05:49 PM
This is a great video. So many of the problems within the LC are related to things like their authority structure or lack of humility. It's hard to believe how they can remain so oblivious to some of these readily apparent problems like their public perception, members leaving, etc.
Before I left, it seemed like there was was an ever-increasing disregard for current members who were struggling or who might be considering leaving. Even just in general, the LC didn't give any thought to making the environment the type of place that people would want to be part of.
It is the lack of humility why there will not be repentance, reconciliation, or reform. I know it will be refuted, but the fruit of deputy authority doctrine is pride.
The LC is fully rejecting any culpability why members leave. It's completely owned by those who leave. It's usually labeled by any number of adjectives as the cause why brothers or sisters leave.
The LC attitude is that of a math formula. Just plug yourself into the ministry and the ministry will take care of you.
Trapped
04-17-2020, 08:37 PM
They have a great little system set up for this kind of stuff.
Having problems? You are too much in your mind.
Speaking up? You are rebellious.
Leaving to get help? You just remained in unforgiven offense.
Speaking up after you leave? DCP goes after you.
And then they circle tighter and shun the struggling member so their echo chamber reinforces itself all the more.
It's sad because the effect is on human lives. But since they circled tighter they don't see the effect. And even when they do see the effect, they, uncomprehendingly, don't care.
They are so steeped in a ministry that requires them to suspend logical thought to accept it that when they are confronted with reasonable discourse and logic it literally does not compute. It truly is so strange to encounter.
Sons to Glory!
04-18-2020, 10:43 AM
Speaking up after you leave? DCP goes after you.
And then they circle tighter and shun the struggling member so their echo chamber reinforces itself all the more.
It's sad because the effect is on human lives. But since they circled tighter they don't see the effect. And even when they do see the effect, they, uncomprehendingly, don't care.When I hear "shun" as it relates to the LC I always think of the Amish practice. There is little difference. Why would you turn your back on someone just because they leave your group!? This is so silly and unbiblical. I can't think of anywhere in scripture that this sort of thing is even vaguely mentioned - am I wrong? While there are places in the word that speak of distancing oneself if a brother is in gross sin or strongly divisive, but nowhere does this extend to what we are talking about here - someone who is merely questioning and perhaps just wants to leave (or has left).
The only reason I can see the LC does this is a defense mechanism - man's attempt to protect a system and control something they don't like. Well boo hoo, show some maturity and get over it! Love and acceptance is to be extended to every member of the body of Christ - NO EXCEPTION. And especially not for some trivial and silly notion like this!
Where I've fellowshipped these past couple decades, many have come and gone for various reasons, including some that didn't quite agree with what was going on here. NOT ONCE have I seen the saints here SHUN someone because of this kind of nonsense. On the contrary, there is a lot of reaching out to just have simple fellowship in the enjoyment of Christ with one another, regardless whether they see fit to meet with us or not. And even if they don't want to come to a Sunday ministry gathering, oftentimes they show up at smaller fellowship and bible study gatherings.
Saints in the LC - this ought not to be so!
E79 - Responding to a "Lord's Recovery" Member - The "Lord's Recovery" of Witness Lee.
Responding to a long message from a "Lord's Recovery" member.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9abIN1epoHg
E80 - Feel Free to Enjoy Your Soul - The "Lord's Recovery" of Witness Lee
Exposing the "Lord's Recovery's" draconian micro-managing of people's inner lives.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8vp_eXLtxU
Curious
04-28-2020, 02:16 AM
Yes, opinion is certainly the work of the devil in us. Adam and Eve had no opinions or nasty soulish 'feelings' before the fall. We know this because it must be so, so that Witness Lee is proved correct.
Also, God forgot to put this in the 10 Commandments. After all, it was a stressful time with the Israelites rebelling at the bottom of the mountain the whole while. it must have been very distracting!
I’m sure if Jesus’ ministry lasted more than 3 short years, he would’ve remembered to mention it too. Good thing WL was able to articulate it for the Godhead….better late than never I guess…..it just proves his value as MOTA.
However, shocking though it may seem, there something even WORSE than opinion (and peculiarity-another gem of wisdom from the riches of WL’s ministry) Yes indeedy there is. And I’m here to let everyone here know what that is……it is being magnanimous. WL saw the danger in this as even worse than having an opinion. It is having an opinion that he couldn’t get at!!!!
You can find his insight on this matter covered in his book “The experience of Life” chapter 10, section 8-9, or Google ‘Witness Lee magnanimous’.
To hold one’s own counsel and keep ones own opinions to oneself, to have emotional self-control and be generous hearted enough to tolerate the differences of others, to also perceive the futility of arguing a point when hearers would clearly reject any discussion…..all these are more dangerous and sinister than merely having an opinion.
(Additionally, they are so frustrating when you are attempting to steam-roller a person into submission, where do you lever-up an edge, gain an advantage over someone who cannot be riled, and try as you may, you can't force to engage on your terms? I’m sure nothing could be more frustrating for our poor MOTA than this ability to remain not susceptible to his efforts to get inside someone’s head!)
Somewhere that I can’t find it continued to say that having an opinion and emotional reaction is better than being magnanimous, as at least there is an opening to 'deal with' the person in the case that what is inside them is not under their own control! (my summary of the text).
The dictionary defines ‘magnanimous’ as: ‘being generous and kind in forgiving an insult or injury, free from petty resentfulness or vindictiveness’. This definition makes me think straight away, of 1 Corinthians chapter 13 v 4-7.
According to WL, to be magnanimous means to be ‘self-righteous’, ‘arrogant’, ‘blind’, ‘in spiritual darkness’, a ‘Pharisee’ who ‘will one day open their mouth and pour out all these pent-up opinions’! ('Gems' from the text referred to above).
So wise of WL to understand the English language better than English speakers, and to redefine our words for us, oh and also to guide us away from scriptures on love. How deceived we would otherwise be!!!
Interestingly also, WL contradicts all this completely, in his writings on 'emotions'. What he says there instructs his followers to keep feelings and reactions very much to oneself. to be 'mild', 'temperate', 'restricted' and 'restrained', 'polite' and 'self-controlled', 'tranquil'..... magnanimous, perhaps? ["Lessons on Prayer" chapter 7 section 3, easy find by google 'Witness Lee on emotion'].
Therefore, perhaps we can conclude that to treat LC’ers we know with a magnanimous attitude, will be one of the most effective ways to disintegrate their system of thinking. Showing them by example the way of love as outlined in the Corinthians verses above, and being non-reactive to their efforts to control seems to be one thing WL could not conquer in a person. Just a thought that comes to me as I write this.
Yes, opinion is certainly the work of the devil in us. Adam and Eve had no opinions or nasty soulish 'feelings' before the fall. We know this because it must be so, so that Witness Lee is proved correct.
Great points, Curious. I just love how a little sarcasm can be used to expose some of the worst nonsense surrounding WL's own opinions.
Curious
04-29-2020, 02:00 AM
Great points, Curious. I just love how a little sarcasm can be used to expose some of the worst nonsense surrounding WL's own opinions.
Thankyou for that. Interesting you validate my sarcasm, I am embracing it, I see it has it's place.
I can't help but wonder if the 10 commandments were rewritten to reflect WL's theology, what would that read like?
Trapped
04-29-2020, 02:28 AM
I can't help but wonder if the 10 commandments were rewritten to reflect WL's theology, what would that read like?
1. Follow Witness Lee to be accepted by God
2. Read no other ministry besides Lee's
3. Do not notice contradictions in Lee's ministry
4. Remember to attend every feast given by Lee or his protegees
5. Honor Lee as your spiritual father
6. Thou shalt spread the threat of death to any who speak up
7. Thou shalt not have a conversation with the opposite gender
8. Thou shalt be robbed of healthy human enjoyments at every turn
9. Thou shalt slander anyone who rightly identifies false apostles and wolves
10. Thou shalt spit on all other Christians outside my little publication kingdom
I guess that's not really his theology, more the LC sociology.
Thankyou for that. Interesting you validate my sarcasm, I am embracing it, I see it has it's place.
I can't help but wonder if the 10 commandments were rewritten to reflect WL's theology, what would that read like?
Sarcasm does have a place. Both Jehovah in the Old and Jesus in the Gospels have used it effectively.
It was consideration of the 10 Commandments, specifically God's righteous standards, that helped clear my own brain fog concerning the many claims of the Recovery. How could the Lord endorse, or even bless, Recovery leadership after reading John Ingalls' truthful account of events? Lee and sons had egregiously violated every command of God.
As Trapped has enumerated, the commands of God must be rewritten for those in "the know," referring to the Blendeds, whose collective conscience has been seared by compromise.
E81 - Megalomaniacs - The "Lord's Recovery" Movement of Witness Lee
More exposure of the corrupted mentality of "the Lords' Recovery."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYC8IQGgzMw
Freedom
04-29-2020, 04:14 PM
E81 - Megalomaniacs - The "Lord's Recovery" Movement of Witness Lee
More exposure of the corrupted mentality of "the Lords' Recovery."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYC8IQGgzMw
Good video. It really can't be emphasized enough that if the LC ever did or still does have anything beneficial to offer, it has nothing to do with the claims that they make for themselves.
If they would just open their eyes, they might realize that outside interest in their group remains very low, they are struggling to retain the members that they do have, and nobody besides them has really heard of or even reads WL's books. If they feel they have something so great and valuable, they might want to just consider why nobody else seems to care.
E82 - Faith, Not Fear - The "Lord's Recovery" of Witness Nee
Victory means trusting God and not giving in to fear and worry.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REawlbbigRc
Trapped
05-01-2020, 09:40 PM
Several episodes back there was a "DCP Part 1" type thing in the title of the video. Are you planning on doing a DCP Part 2?
Several episodes back there was a "DCP Part 1" type thing in the title of the video. Are you planning on doing a DCP Part 2?
I decided not to. Maybe in the future.
Curious
05-04-2020, 10:27 PM
Interestingly also, WL contradicts all this completely, in his writings on 'emotions'. What he says there instructs his followers to keep feelings and reactions very much to oneself. to be 'mild', 'temperate', 'restricted' and 'restrained', 'polite' and 'self-controlled', 'tranquil'..... magnanimous, perhaps? ["Lessons on Prayer" chapter 7 section 3, easy find by google 'Witness Lee on emotion'].
-(Quote from my own post no.206 on this thread)
As I have time today, I am going to correct my own comment here. Having thought about this comment of mine here a little more, I find I don't agree with it. WL is not describing being motivated by love or a magnanimous attitude here. He is describing what this motivation as a behavior looks like but not touching on the motivation that should be behind it. That difference makes a particular behavior at risk of expressing an opposite source. His description can be motivated by fear, by a manipulative agenda, by social conditioning, but have no love for others involved. The definition of magnanimous touches on the reason for such an attitude...kindness, humility, are referenced, as does the 1 Corinthians 13 description of love.
The directional words in this list, taken directly from his own writings on this topic, can be described as teaching a person to be restricted, restrained, suppressed, even oppressed. All very unhealthy from a mental health perspective. A copy-cat outwardly, of mature Christian conduct but without any reference to how to arrive at this place where this conduct is a natural, not imposed, expression of the freedom to love and express goodness to others. This is where his writings are superficial, and betray the superficiality of his own understanding and function.
Thankyou Trapped for offering an alternative 10 commandments. Amongst the 10 commandments, the beatitudes, and the Lord's prayer, there is not even a sideways reference to what WL puts center square in his 'perfecting training'. (To note, as well, any other preaching that places other outward behavior or focus in substitution of these three sets of fundamental directives from heaven to us).
E83 - Highlights of Interview with Cult Expert Steve Hassan - The "Lord's Recovery" of Witness Lee
Jordan Harbinger interviews cult expert Steve Hassan about controlling group practices.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wn1l8Dvp3nA
Trapped
05-11-2020, 04:13 PM
E83 - Highlights of Interview with Cult Expert Steve Hassan - The "Lord's Recovery" of Witness Lee
Jordan Harbinger interviews cult expert Steve Hassan about controlling group practices.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wn1l8Dvp3nA
When Steve was talking about sleep deprivation affecting critical thinking skills, I thought of the FTTA.
Now, I know the FTTA sleep deprivation is nowhere near on par with truly sinister deprivation tactics....no one is being forced to stay up for 50 hours or only operate on a couple hours sleep night after night.
But the schedule is bedtime at 10:30pm and wake up at 6:00am, which is 7.5 hours of sleep if you fall asleep immediately and sleep all night. If you don't fall asleep immediately, which I believe many trainees do not because their day is so packed they need the wind-down time, you are verging into 6-7 hours of sleep. Many people in general do need 8-9 hours, and trainees are probably no different.
Indeed, it's well known that many trainees graduate the training with some kind of anxiety and/or depression or other mental health issue, and some graduate sick and worn down. I wonder if the slight edge of sleep deprivation is to make them more amenable to taking in the errors in what they are hearing.
Trapped
05-11-2020, 04:25 PM
Quote from Steve Hassan in the interview:
"Every mind control cult does not want you saying anything negative against the leader, the doctrine, or the policy. So that's part of the information control, right? In healthy organizations you want to hear criticisms, you want to hear feedback. If the leader said something wrong, bad decision or something, you want to call the leader out and say, 'Hey we trusted you, you did this wrong.' And you want a leader that goes, 'You're right, I screwed up, I apologize. And you want that kind of responsive dynamic organization."
TLFisher
05-12-2020, 06:24 PM
When Steve was talking about sleep deprivation affecting critical thinking skills, I thought of the FTTA.
Me too! The first thought I had was FTTA. I never attended, but I heard stories of insufficient sleep. I'm in the opinion insufficient sleep can lead to physical health/mental health issues.
Brothers I had lived in a brother's house with, prior to FTTA they were real characters. Hilarious, compassionate, and simply full of life. As FTTA graduates I barely recognized them as people. Their personality was replaced by the ministry.
byHismercy
05-12-2020, 06:39 PM
Minoru spoke critically of getting too much sleep in a conference once. Actually he was very critical of an 8 hour sleep. He felt that was just worldly, and unnecessary. He was sure 6 to 7 hours was more than adequate, anything more was just indulging the flesh, and akin to laziness. I went home feeling kind of ashamed of myself, but the more I thought about it, the more I disagreed and resented that level of involvement in the lives of church members....a degree of involvement I believed was inappropriate. And I was right. It is completely inappropriate for a group to say how much sleep an individual needs or does not need. Just crazy. No boundaries. No sense of right and wrong with these people.
Trapped
05-12-2020, 09:41 PM
Me too! The first thought I had was FTTA. I never attended, but I heard stories of insufficient sleep. I'm in the opinion insufficient sleep can lead to physical health/mental health issues.
Brothers I had lived in a brother's house with, prior to FTTA they were real characters. Hilarious, compassionate, and simply full of life. As FTTA graduates I barely recognized them as people. Their personality was replaced by the ministry.
Is it any wonder that the common refrain from the FTTA graduates after their two-year immersion in the ministry and everything Lord's recovery is, literally, "I don't know how to BE"?????
And they try to pass that off as a healthy place? The best place?
E84 - Killing the Nattering Nabobs of Negativity - aka the Prophets
Showing how the "Lord's Recovery" ignores God's offce of prophets and even, like all corrupt religious leaders, kills the prophets.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIPIKwCF6E0
googlelight
05-19-2020, 04:26 PM
E84 - Killing the Nattering Nabobs of Negativity - aka the Prophets
Showing how the "Lord's Recovery" ignores God's offce of prophets and even, like all corrupt religious leaders, kills the prophets.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIPIKwCF6E0
thank you, I have watched episode 83 around 7 or 8 times. Should be useful for all christian on this planet imo! As I was considering all of this, it just dawned on me; 1 Cor 12:21 says; "The eye cannot say to the hand, “I don’t need you!” LR seems to claim they are the eye. "Vision of the age" "High Peaks of divine revelation." The hand, to me, seems to be those today that labor preaching the gospel. at the very best, this is true, and even if it was, the eye cant say "I dont need you to the hand." This seems to me to be exactly what is happening. And I am still considering this, even if LR is philadelfia or laodecia (not up to me to judge), the Lord is still speaking to to the rest of the churches, calling them to overcome. So it is fairly illogical to me to have a view that the speaking is only among LR, yet many there still hold this view. I dont understand this at all. Thank you so much for all these videos to me, it has helped me more than I can describe Cal!
thank you, I have watched episode 83 around 7 or 8 times. Should be useful for all christian on this planet imo! As I was considering all of this, it just dawned on me; 1 Cor 12:21 says; "The eye cannot say to the hand, “I don’t need you!” LR seems to claim they are the eye. "Vision of the age" "High Peaks of divine revelation." The hand, to me, seems to be those today that labor preaching the gospel. at the very best, this is true, and even if it was, the eye cant say "I dont need you to the hand." This seems to me to be exactly what is happening. And I am still considering this, even if LR is philadelfia or laodecia (not up to me to judge), the Lord is still speaking to to the rest of the churches, calling them to overcome. So it is fairly illogical to me to have a view that the speaking is only among LR, yet many there still hold this view. I dont understand this at all. Thank you so much for all these videos to me, it has helped me more than I can describe Cal!
I makes me happy that some people are being helped by the videos. Thanks!
even if LR is philadelfia or laodecia (not up to me to judge), the Lord is still speaking to to the rest of the churches, calling them to overcome. So it is fairly illogical to me to have a view that the speaking is only among LR, yet many there still hold this view. I dont understand this at all.The LR says "we are the genuine [local] expression of God" yet they still teach that all the seven churches in Revelation 2 and 3 were genuine local churches of God, represented by real golden lampstands, which lampstands typify various groups (Protestant, Bretheren, RCC etc). But they say those groups are not genuine local churches. So they are genuine lampstands, and then they are not. This is fairly illogical, as well.
I mean, let your yes be yes, and your no be no. Instead you get this illogical, "It is (but it isn't)". You'll note that they sing the classic Protestant hymns, calling them "our rich heritage", then blast all Protestants for being Babyolon. And so forth. And no members notice the hypocrisy?
The LR says "we are the genuine [local] expression of God" yet they still teach that all the seven churches in Revelation 2 and 3 were genuine local churches of God, represented by real golden lampstands, which lampstands typify various groups (Protestant, Bretheren, RCC etc). But they say those groups are not genuine local churches. So they are genuine lampstands, and then they are not. This is fairly illogical, as well.
I mean, let your yes be yes, and your no be no. Instead you get this illogical, "It is (but it isn't)". You'll note that they sing the classic Protestant hymns, calling them "our rich heritage", then blast all Protestants for being Babyolon. And so forth. And no members notice the hypocrisy?
What they do is identify what they consider the best parts of Christian and Church history and say that's OUR legacy and even that's US. And they identify the bad parts and say that's "CHRISTIANITY'S" legacy and that's THEM.
The "Recovery" is all the good stuff, which they claim as theirs. All the bad stuff is not theirs. It doesn't matter what is is--if they like it they claim it as part of their legacy. If not, it's someone else's. And it doesn't matter how historically mixed-up and in various combinations these good and bad things have occurred. If it was good it's the "Recovery," and if it was bad it's "Christianity."
They never own failure. Why? Because "the Recovery" is by definition only the good stuff. If it's bad it's categorically not "the Recovery," therefore it's not them.
It's an astounding and monstrous self-deception. But it's equally astounding how effective it can be. People seem to want so much to believe that they are the good guys, and someone else are the bad guys.
What they do is identify what they consider the best parts of Christian and Church history and say that's OUR legacy and even that's US. And they identify the bad parts and say that's "CHRISTIANITY'S" legacy and that's THEM.
The "Recovery" is all the good stuff, which they claim as theirs. All the bad stuff is not theirs. It doesn't matter what is is--if they like it they claim it as part of their legacy. If not, it's someone else's. And it doesn't matter how historically mixed-up and in various combinations these good and bad things have occurred. If it was good it's the "Recovery," and if it was bad it's "Christianity."
They never own failure. Why? Because "the Recovery" is by definition only the good stuff. If it's bad it's categorically not "the Recovery," therefore it's not them.
It's an astounding and monstrous self-deception. But it's equally astounding how effective it can be. People seem to want so much to believe that they are the good guys, and someone else are the bad guys.
Well said!!!
I can't even count the number of times I heard WL compare the best of the Recovery -- like a refreshing testimony from a young one -- to the worst of Christianity. And we all wildly cheered. Hurray for us!
But why not compare WL's own boys to some fine, upstanding youth pastors? That's an honest comparison.
TLFisher
05-23-2020, 11:51 AM
The "Recovery" is all the good stuff, which they claim as theirs. All the bad stuff is not theirs. It doesn't matter what is is--if they like it they claim it as part of their legacy. If not, it's someone else's. And it doesn't matter how historically mixed-up and in various combinations these good and bad things have occurred. If it was good it's the "Recovery," and if it was bad it's "Christianity."
They never own failure. Why? Because "the Recovery" is by definition only the good stuff. If it's bad it's categorically not "the Recovery," therefore it's not them.
It's an astounding and monstrous self-deception. But it's equally astounding how effective it can be. People seem to want so much to believe that they are the good guys, and someone else are the bad guys.
I think it's a fair question to ask, if the recovery is the best why are so many children raised in the Local Churches end up in fellowship with non-LC Christian congregations?
E85 - Am I Being Judgmental? - The "Lord's Recovery" of Witness Lee
Addressing a judgmental listener's claims that I should not be judgmental.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkV1Grm7SxI
Sons to Glory!
05-29-2020, 08:57 AM
E85 - Am I Being Judgmental? - The "Lord's Recovery" of Witness Lee
Addressing a judgmental listener's claims that I should not be judgmental.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkV1Grm7SxIYou may be judgmental, but I'm so much more humble than you! :hysterical:
E83 - Highlights of Interview with Cult Expert Steve Hassan - The "Lord's Recovery" of Witness Lee
Jordan Harbinger interviews cult expert Steve Hassan about controlling group practices.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wn1l8Dvp3nA
Good stuff!
E86 - What "The Recovery" Really Is - The "Lord's Recovery" of Witness Lee
Discussing how the "Lord's Recovery" claims only the good things for itself, and blames all the bad things on others.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ht7KxD1OSc
E87 - A Look at Quarantining - The "Lord's Recovery" of Witness Lee
Discussing the "Lord's Recovery's" extreme application of shunning, which they call quarantining.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lag6Bl-BJog
Curious
06-07-2020, 04:15 AM
Ahhh, I see, I finally get it. When the LC quarantines a person, they are actually quarantining, or shunning, THEMSELVES from that person. Not the obvious way around.
THEY have backed gross sexual sin, thereby extending it's guilt over themselves, THEY have been divisive in the church, and THEY have taught heresy. So they qualify on all the scriptural scenarios for being shunned mentioned in episode 87. By quarantining an individual, they are acknowledging that person's concern for truth and rightness means they can no longer associate themselves with the LC. If you are quarantined, consider it the confession of the LC that righteousness needs to be seperated from corruption. i.e. YOUR righteousness can no longer be in submission to THEIR corruption! They are at least getting something right! Quarantining themselves is exactly the scriptural correct thing to do!!
Ahhh, I see, I finally get it. When the LC quarantines a person, they are actually quarantining, or shunning, THEMSELVES from that person. Not the obvious way around.
Very good observation, Curious!
Ahhh, I see, I finally get it. When the LC quarantines a person, they are actually quarantining, or shunning, THEMSELVES from that person. Not the obvious way around.
They are merely protecting their remaining members from getting poisoned ... I mean "sick."
Curious
06-07-2020, 03:23 PM
Ahhh, I see, I finally get it. When the LC quarantines a person, they are actually quarantining, or shunning, THEMSELVES from that person. Not the obvious way around!
Its like a computer game. You go in, achieve the level... gather the items or achieve the goals, in this case, gain the wisdom, see through the cracks and the deceptions, then, the system itself kicks you out once it realises you've passed the level. Even if you've put down roots there and would like to stay. No. You've got the next level of learning that God has predestined for your life and you have to move on. The LC itself identifies this, (in their own, twisted way), just like a computer game and you can't go backwards or atrophy.
Also, like Joseph got moved on 3 times in his life: from a son to a slave, from a slave to a prisoner, from a prisoner to a President (or ancient-world equivalent). Each time without warning, each time a total seperation from the life he had, each time with a new set of lessons to learn in preperation for the end goal. And also, each time brutal and abrupt without warning, and the first two times, through malignant intentions of the one's causing it. He got spat out of one normality and onto the next.
We just need to ask God for the strength to survive it all and the wisdom to keep gaining from it what He has set before us. And the ability to remain in God anf His love, and keep free from bitterness, through the hardships.
Hello Everybody!
Just want to let you know that I changed the name of the "My OpinionsFree" youtube channel to "Examining the Lord's Recovery."
Also, I am in the process of trimming off the Calvin intro and outro on the videos. I know, I will miss Calvin, too. But I want to use the name "My Opinions Free" for a more general subject channel. Like Calvin I think my opinions are what the world needs. By the way, the follow up to the panel below was Calvin saying to Hobbes. "I don't understand why no one is buying. Everyone needs what I'm selling.
https://i.imgur.com/aUgB4JS.png
Curious
06-15-2020, 10:13 PM
I am buying! only its free so I don't pay money!!
One thing I've thought about for a long time but not said....when you list famous actors who grew up in cults, on one of your episodes, they happen to be all women. One significant man actor is Joaquim Phoenix. He and his brother River both grew up in the one with the 'flirty fishing', which practised paedophilia. His brother River, died young and he has survived, and drawn on his experience in the cult, no doubt, to make an excellent depraved, incestuously motivated Emporer in the movie 'the Gladiator.'...a movie that also accurately portrays the pre-Christian world of Rome. And the pall of despair and darkness that pervaded life there.
I just think it might be an encouragement to male readers to have an example of a male in that mix too. Otherwise, keep going. I will subscribe to both of your channels!
I am buying! only its free so I don't pay money!!
One thing I've thought about for a long time but not said....when you list famous actors who grew up in cults, on one of your episodes, they happen to be all women. One significant man actor is Joaquim Phoenix. He and his brother River both grew up in the one with the 'flirty fishing', which practised paedophilia. His brother River, died young and he has survived, and drawn on his experience in the cult, no doubt, to make an excellent depraved, incestuously motivated Emporer in the movie 'the Gladiator.'...a movie that also accurately portrays the pre-Christian world of Rome. And the pall of despair and darkness that pervaded life there.
I just think it might be an encouragement to male readers to have an example of a male in that mix too. Otherwise, keep going. I will subscribe to both of your channels!
Yes, the reason I picked all women was so I could pull the gag of saying "What do all these women have in common.... No, it's not that they were all harassed by Philip Lee... Shame on you for thinking that."
It's hard for me to pass up a gag like that, so please forgive me.
Yes, many men have been raised in cults as well. It's a common experience. Nothing is really that unique about the LR.
Joaquin Phoenix probably drew on his cult experience to play the Joker as well, which I haven't seen, but now that I think about it I probably should.
Okay, launching my new, more general video channel. It will touch on some current events from my Christian perspective. The voice on the video is closer to my actual voice.
I won't advertise these here necessarily going forward, because they are not directly related to the LR. But you can join the Facebook "Former Members of the Local Church" group to see them. It is another group of former members in discussion.
E01 - Beginnings
Introduction to my video series and to my beliefs and worldview.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDI0DXD4CnY
Second installment of my new video series on my Christian worldview, This one covering what I call the three relationships.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McyGZihlets
That will be last video of my new series that I announce here on LCD, since they are not specifically germane to the LR. Going forward please check for additional ones on the channel itself.
I will continue to announce my "Examining the LR" videos here, however. But I probably will not make another one of those until something new comes out from the movement that prompts a fresh response.
Thanks for your support.
TLFisher
07-13-2020, 07:06 AM
But you can join the Facebook "Former Members of the Local Church" group to see them. It is another group of former members in discussion.
If it is the same one I was part of in 2018, there should be a disclaimer. "If you are a conservative, you do so at your own peril." This board is far more accepting in accepting diverse views and opinions.
If it is the same one I was part of in 2018, there should be a disclaimer. "If you are a conservative, you do so at your own peril."
Agreed. Also, you might want to keep quiet about supporting traditional God-ordained marriage, and His creation of males and females.
E88 - A Final Word, For Now
Wrapping up this video series... for now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFf9RCo-G5Q
E88 - A Final Word, For Now
Wrapping up this video series... for now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFf9RCo-G5Q
Cal, you have done well.
You have used your talents to help others, those who are hurting.
Cal, you have done well.
You have used your talents to help others, those who are hurting.
Thanks, Ohio. Same to you.
Unregistered
08-04-2020, 10:57 AM
My parents forced me into the local church in Anaheim. I fought the whole thing from day one. I hated it I did not subscribe I didn't follow anything. Every day I waited for it to fall. I don't know maybe I sensed already it was something that was not on the up and up and in fact evil. The people that came out of there were decent folks but I have no contact with any nor do I want any. There are some that are still in it and I'm glad they're on their own. I follow no man nor am I afraid.
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