Quote From Today's Watchman/Witness Wednesday

[Nell]

The word that comes to mind for this one is “drugs”. There’s a book “When God Becomes a Drug”.

Drugs solve all our problems. If you are filled with sorrow and worry,...are disappointed, discouraged, or distracted,...are weak or strong, take a pill. You’ll feel better. You can make it to/through the next meeting.

Nell

[Nell]

“We have seen that our experience has been a story of constant failures. We have seen also that the life that God has ordained is a life that is far higher than our current Christian experience. We have seen that the overcoming life which God has given to us is Christ and that human ways, such as suppression, struggling, prayers, etc., are useless. We have seen that this life is a matter of exchange and not change.”

Watchman Nee
The Overcoming Life, LSM 1997, p. 135


Yet their human ways of spiritual abuse continue.

Do they even read this stuff?

Nell

[OBW]

We have seen that the overcoming life which God has given to us is Christ and that human ways, such as suppression, struggling, prayers, etc., are useless. We have seen that this life is a matter of exchange and not change.I find it interesting that Nee lumps prayer in with "human ways," and declares it useless.

And saying "exchange . . . not change" is a kind of word trick. First, dismissing change is as egregious as calling prayer a useless human way. Second exchange implies change. To say that the human ways are in opposition (or contrast) to Christ is a hollow statement. I am not saying that Christ is hollow, but that the use of words is giving the whole of Christ without means to making that practical in opposition to the things that scripture actually provides as our tools of spiritual progress. (And I am in a quandary to figure out how "suppression" got into the mix of Christian experience that he seeks to speak against.)

This seems to be the Nee precursor to Lee's penchant for declaring everything to be "just Christ" (or simply Christ). "Don't care for grace, just Christ." "Forget mercy. Too low. Just Christ!" "It's too hard to reckon. Just Christ!"

While it is possible to make the argument that since everything "from above" is of Christ, "just Christ" is not entirely incorrect. But it is hardly helpful to point us to the ocean of options, characteristics, abilities, etc., when what we need right now is comfort. Surely the true comfort comes from Christ. But we do not need a mantra of "just Christ." We need comfort. Or grace. Or strength. Or courage.

And we need to pray. We need to persevere in the struggles of life.

And we wonder why some see religion as the opiate of the people. It is because some will offer nearly useless platitudes to get excited about so we can just forget our woes and buck it up and move one. Sort of like taking drugs.

I am not saying that Christ can be simply a platitude. An opiate. But Christ as all-in-all is not a whole without parts that just fixes everything. It is the parts that make up the "all" that are important. It is the finding of comfort in Christ in both our reading of the Word and the love received from the church around us. And so on.

[Unregistered]

"We must declare ourselves the race of the overcomers"- Lee

Lee, you couldn't even overcome your love for money and power. You couldn't overcome your agenda and nullified scripture as you saw fit in your own eyes. Lastly, you couldn't overcome your pride, that led to the suffering and neglect of many. Now, you have a whole group of followers that follow after you and your ways and replace Christ as the head. People in the LR spent their whole lives thinking they are growing in Christ when in reality; The people in the LR became more like Witness Lee. The fruit of the ministry is exposing the root of this tree that dwells deep in ungodliness. This man named Lee, who is as fallen as many others in this world; Is the head/center of obedience and exaltation in this group. What disaster this leads to.

The main emphasis/teaching of the LR "Christ in you"
What actually happens- "Lee in you".
Was Lee in his ministry trying to replace the nature of God with the nature of himself? I always was disturbed how he tried nullify and make void various aspects of the nature of Christ because it did not suit "his image".

Bible- God made man in his image
Lee mentality- I want to make man in my image.
Thus, he shaped an entire religious group with that very purpose. Upon getting the familiar with the LR you meet the most: vainglorious, self-centered/narcissistic, callousness, money loving, wait a second......
As I am writing this, this all seems really familiar. Paul talked about this, and I guess it was just so bizarre that I saw these traits/characteristics in a supposed "Christian church".

2 Timothy 3:1-5
3 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

Titus 1:16
16 They profess to know God, but they deny him by their works. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work.

[OBW]

As someone once said, in the beginning, God created man in His own image . . . and man has been returning the favor ever since.

While it is arguable that we all do it in some ways, it is people like Lee that spend their lives making money at it.

[UntoHim]

"In spiritual things, self-analysis will not only fail to show us the reality, it will even create spiritual paralysis. Real seeing and understanding comes only from God's illumination. As light shines, we just naturally see. We therefore do not need to ask ourselves questions; all we need to do is to ask God to cause his word to shine in us ...."
This little snipped really illustrates one of the biggest dangers in the teachings and theology of Watchman Nee - That we need to disengage from healthy questioning and studious inquiring to the subjectivity of "real seeing and understanding from God's illumination". Of course there is nothing wrong with asking God "to cause his word to shine in us", but when it is done after intentionally discarding the safeguards and boundaries that have been provided by the wise council and sound admonition of the saints that have gone before us over the past two millennia, God's people can and have been lead astray.

And if taken too far, this all leads to a large lot of precious and sincere Christians chanting and singing aloud "Get out of your mind and get your spirit in gear". :frown5: May God have mercy.
-

[OBW]

I note that he calls it "self-analysis" so that it is presumed to be merely an effort of the flesh.

I suspect that there has been little enlightenment that came from sitting around waiting for the light to shine. It usually arises when we seek diligently for answers. When we question what we have been taught and seek to have it either confirmed or set aside.

Spiritual paralysis seems to be more about the inability to do anything because we are unable to reconcile what we have been taught from the Word with what we read there. It is exacerbated when our "trusted" source keeps on speaking something different than what the Word says and we have to resort to cliches like "I can't figure it out on my own."

When the Nees and Lees of the world are not busy telling you something that the Word does not say, they are telling you that your questions are the problem, not the things that give rise to the questions. And the result is that the faithful do not question it, no matter how ridiculous it may be.

[OBW]

OK. This one is not from the Wednesday posts, but from a long-time LCer on my Facebook feed that constantly posts bits and pieces of "ministry."

We need to gain Christ for Christ — Witness Lee, Life-study of Joshua, Judges, and RuthSounds good. But is this true? Or at least important? I cannot find anything that teaches this kind of thing. Is this another unique statement? One that only people in the LC have? I can find no other reason to make such a statement as if it is a "precious promise" or significant statement from Paul or something like that.

[Ohio]

Today's Witness Wednesday Quote:

Likewise, the Father, the Son, and Spirit are not three Gods, but three stages of one God for us to possess and enjoy.

This exactly defines Modalism, the heresy WL was long criticized about. His own words convict him.

[HERn]

Today's Witness Wednesday Quote:

Likewise, the Father, the Son, and Spirit are not three Gods, but three stages of one God for us to possess and enjoy.

This exactly defines Modalism, the heresy WL was long criticized about. His own words convict him.

I guess I missed this WL quote last Wednesday, what was the reference?

[UntoHim]

Here is what was posted on the last Witness Wednesday module:

“In the heavens, where man cannot see Him, God is the Father; when He is expressed among men, He is the Son; and when He comes into men, He is the Spirit. The Father was expressed among men in the Son, and the Son became the Spirit to come into men. The Father is in the Son, and the Son became the Spirit—the three are just one God.”
Concerning The Triune God - Witness Lee

"Like wise, the Father, the Son, and Spirit are not three Gods, but three stages of one God for us to possess and enjoy."
Concerning the Triune God - Witness Lee
-

Concerning the Triune God - LSM (https://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?xid=PK05UQIC5WQQQ)
-

Another quote from Concerning the Triune God:
The term three persons does not exist in the Scriptures but is added by men in their interpretation. Since they cannot say that the three—the Father, the Son, and the Spirit—are three Gods, what else can they say? So the designation three persons is used. Actually, to use the designation three persons to explain the Father, the Son, and the Spirit is also not quite satisfactory, because three persons really means three persons.

[Ohio]

Wow. This exactly expresses the view I had of LSM when I left. Isn't it amazing how they were "judged the way they judged others?"
Today everything in Protestant Christianity is dead or is dying. This is not my word but the word of the Lord Jesus. Then, in Revelation 3:20 the Lord Jesus was knocking on the door of the church in Laodicea, indicating that He was outside the church in Laodicea. Thus, the church in Laodicea, a prefigure of the degraded Brethren assemblies as part of today’s Protestantism, is christless. This is the actual situation of today’s Christianity. On the one hand, the Protestant churches are dead or are dying in spiritual things. On the other hand, they claim to preach Christ, but they do not have Christ actually living within them.I literally spent years, hundreds of exhausting messages, attending LSM trainings and enduring dead, lifeless, esoteric, and tasteless doctrines. God is my witness, how rarely I heard some anointed word from their podium.

Nearly every Christian message I have heard in "poor, poor, Christianity" had more anointing Spirit than whole trainings at LSM.

[Nell]

However, if you live the church life, the very Christ whom you offer to God will heal you. He is better than any psychiatrist. Do not go to a psychiatrist—come to Christ and offer Him to God. Then you will be healthy, sober, and emotionally balanced.

Wow. Another cringe-worthy quote from Lee.

Nell

[Nell]

I can testify that I am happy every day in my home, but often I am not that happy. But I am guaranteed to be happy when I come to the meeting. In my fifty years in the church life I cannot remember a meeting in which I was miserable. I was miserable sometimes in my home, but I do not remember even once being miserable in the meeting. Witness Lee Collected Works, 1982, Vol. 1, LSM, p. 485

This is the way it works when you are in control of what happens in the meetings. But, if you are unable, or choose not, to control the behavior of your sons "at home", it might make a miserable "home life."

Nell

[Nell]

WL: God does not intend for us to do anything for Him. As God's children, we need to change our concept and see that God's only desire is to give Himself to us to be our enjoyment. The secret of the Christian life is not how much we work for Him, but how much we enjoy him. It is not what we do for Him, but how we enjoy him. We must learn this secret. There is no need for us to worry about doing this or that. We need to learn to simply turn our inner being to enjoy God. When we pray, there is no need for us to be concerned about our difficulties and burdens, such as a seriously ill child. We need to learn to come to God to enjoy and absorb Him, and forget about everything, even a child's illness.

How to Enjoy God and How to Practice the Enjoyment of God
"This book is composed of messages given by Brother Witness Lee in March 1958 in Taipei, Taiwan."

Contrast this cringeworthy statement with the Overcomer teaching!
Perhaps this is the origin of the disastrous “if you take care of the church, God will take care of your children.” …not even a seriously ill adult, but a sick child. He certainly didn’t raise up his own children to be godly men.

Why did he show such callousness toward children…even sick children?

[Bible-believer]

Contrast this cringeworthy statement with the Overcomer teaching!
Perhaps this is the origin of the disastrous “if you take care of the church, God will take care of your children.” …not even a seriously ill adult, but a sick child. He certainly didn’t raise up his own children to be godly men.

Why did he show such callousness toward children…even sick children?


To Contrast Lee's statements and teachings, we can hear them slap each other so hard, even the echo screaming in the corridor.

[Trapped]

God does not intend for us to do anything for Him. As God's children, we need to change our concept and see that God's only desire is to give Himself to us to be our enjoyment. The secret of the Christian life is not how much we work for Him, but how much we enjoy him. It is not what we do for Him, but how we enjoy him. We must learn this secret. There is no need for us to worry about doing this or that. We need to learn to simply turn our inner being to enjoy God. When we pray, there is no need for us to be concerned about our difficulties and burdens, such as a seriously ill child. We need to learn to come to God to enjoy and absorb Him, and forget about everything, even a child's illness.

Sick child: Mommy, my stomach hurts so bad, it's twisting in knots and I have rolling cramps, the rash and swelling are spreading and I have a splitting headache, mommy help me!

Mom: brb, kid, gotta go enjoy and absorb God! Forget about you!

And this is why so many church kids end up the way they do.......

Honestly, read the page of the book this quote comes from. Lee talks about how we should "let the children be sick" and all we need to do is "absorb the Lord again and again". The end result is "our face will shine" and he calls THAT (a shining face) "expressing the Lord".

A shining face is expressing the Lord, according to Lee.

Not taking care of your sick kids. That's not expressing the Lord.

This is rare, but I'm actually fighting a turning stomach on this one. Oh how I wish I knew decades ago what I know now about the local church. I would have jumped at the chance to tear Witness Lee's false teachings down when he was alive, so he could see his false kingdom crumbling with his own eyes.

[Trapped]

This is from just a little later on in the same chapter:

"There is no need for us to pray for so many matters. We simply need to touch the Lord, to contact Him. Our relationship with the Lord is not based on matters. He has no intention for us to do anything for Him, nor does He have any intention of doing anything for us. Our relationship with the Lord is not based on doing things but on enjoying Him. He said, “Take, eat” (Matt. 26:26). This means that He wants us to remember Him, to take and drink Him. He has given Himself to us for our enjoyment. He has no desire to do anything for us. He simply desires to be our enjoyment. He does not want us to do anything for Him. He desires us to enjoy Him. That is all He desires, and this is all that matters. He has become our enjoyment. We simply need to enjoy Him, and His glory will be expressed through us. This is the Christian life. This is the meaning of being a Christian."

Is this, like, Christian hedonism?

No doubt God wants a relationship with us, for us to know Him and for us to be known by Him, but Lee ratchets this up to extreme levels. "Enjoyment" is, literally, the only thing that matters.

I'm not sure that Lee even ever explains what you are supposed to be doing when you "enjoy Him". Do you just sit there.....basking? Mouth open? Arms up? What's happening when this is going on? Is there some beam of light that hits us? Some buzzing feeling? Warm fuzzies? What if your face isn't shining afterwards? Did you fail at enjoying the Lord? What's the lumen count off your face gotta be measured at before Lee considers you a success at enjoying and shining?

A perpetual "enjoying the Lord" as taught by Lee was honestly the most nebulous, confusing thing for me (and still is). Funnily enough, the Bible never tells to "enjoy the Lord." But Lee made it the entire meaning of being a Christian.....to the neglect of the children God entrusted us with!

Hm. Who we gonna believe on this one?

Trapped

P.S. Another part in the chapter has Lee bringing up the story of Lazarus. While I get that there are applications to the story, and the Lord can indeed "raise the dead" in our situations even when it seems like the body is too cold to do so......it seems like Lee really thinks a serious application of the Lazarus story is to forget about your sick children in the same way. Let them be, just like the Lord let Lazarus be....... You can't make this up!

[Ohio]

Honestly, read the page of the book this quote comes from. Lee talks about how we should "let the children be sick" and all we need to do is "absorb the Lord again and again". The end result is "our face will shine" and he calls THAT (a shining face) "expressing the Lord".

Equally disturbing to me are WL's comments, "God does not intend for us to do anything for Him. As God's children, we need to change our concept and see that God's only desire is to give Himself to us to be our enjoyment. The secret of the Christian life is not how much we work for Him, but how much we enjoy him."

Where is the Great Commission? Where is the work of ministry, where is the preaching of the gospel, where is serving others? Where are "good works?" Read Titus 2.11-14

WL's words here just put the believers to sleep. Didn't he used to say, "better to sleep in the meetings, than ..." Didn't he endlessly equate the "good works" in the Bible with "dead works." Even a novice student of the Bible can distinguish "good works" with "dead works." WL couldn't. Or wouldn't.

Yet when it came to one of WL's latest "flows," the endless winds and waves of activities mandated by LSM, then WL would stop talking about "us not doing anything," and he would begin to guilt shame all the LC's, whipping us into motion to "serve the ministry."

[Bible-believer]

Honestly, read the page of the book this quote comes from. Lee talks about how we should "let the children be sick" and all we need to do is "absorb the Lord again and again". The end result is "our face will shine" and he calls THAT (a shining face) "expressing the Lord".



He had to be out of mind to say so.

[Robert]

This is how ends new definitions, new thoughts, new teachings.
I think I can understand partially what he meant by this. Of course it was not about kids abandoning as few of You suggested. Not at all. Deception and danger is in kind of schizophrenic way of escape.
We have clear and simply Christian language as: trust in Lord, cast away worries etc.
Main problem is i lack of spiritual "control" of what happen in new believers.
Elders and rest is mostly satisfied when You wave hands, repeat teaching and shout "Amen"!
They do not really care about Your knowledge of Christ. Jesus Christ is actually flated to some techniques and practices. Depersonalized.
Another danger in their teaching is focus on ourselves rather than others. I see many bad fruits after years.

[Ohio]

"One thing is unmistakable: the soul is affected by outside influences, but not the spirit. For example, when the soul is provided with beautiful scenery, serene nature, inspiring music, or many other phenomena pertaining to the external world, it can be moved instantly and respond strongly. Not so the spirit. Hence those that are genuinely spiritual can be active whether or not their soul has feeling or their body has strength. -- WN"

Think how foolish this sounds. What does this say about a spirit of fear, a spirit of python, etc. Someone needs to teach all the writers in the Bible what WN said above.

[Robert]

"One thing is unmistakable: the soul is affected by outside influences, but not the spirit. For example, when the soul is provided with beautiful scenery, serene nature, inspiring music, or many other phenomena pertaining to the external world, it can be moved instantly and respond strongly. Not so the spirit. Hence those that are genuinely spiritual can be active whether or not their soul has feeling or their body has strength. -- WN"

We have to distinct OT experiences from NT. I did some home study last time about spirit and soul in OT. We can see there words "spirit" and "soul" used in same situations interchangeably. Undoubtedly OT people had no experience of the same Holy Spirit as NT believers.

What WN said is actually my experience too. For me it does not sounds foolish. I do agree with whole quoted words of WN above. We can experience it and this is scriptural. We can have peace and unshaken position In Chris Jesus. No matter what happen in our soul and body. This connection or state of heart is called FAITH. During live time we can experience what is from soul and what is from spirit.

[Robert]

"When we experience Christ as our person, his taste will become our taste, his feelings will become our feelings, his inclinations will become our inclinations, and his preferences will become our preferences." Witness Lee

Finally! Something new! New language! Now I can understand! To experience someone as my person! Much different from old and boring verses:

John 15:4
Remain in me, and I in you. As the branch can't bear fruit by itself, unless it remains in the vine, so neither can you, unless you remain in me.
15:5
I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

This is very close to visualization which comes from India. When we identify ourselves using mind, this is visualization. But when we open our spirit, then we can be one with God. Small difference but so significant. That is why we have still so religious saints in recovery.

[Sons to Glory!]

"When we experience Christ as our person, his taste will become our taste, his feelings will become our feelings, his inclinations will become our inclinations, and his preferences will become our preferences." Witness Lee

I do get the point in what WL is saying. The Spirit of Christ in us gives us inclinations towards things, or away from other things, and this is the new covenant (writing laws on our hearts & minds). I have many such things in my life. A few things He took away in an instant (like the pleasure/high of smoking pot), but most things were gradual over time. The nudges and speakings of things like, "You really shouldn't have said that in that way to your wife. Go apologize to her." etc.

So basically I see nothing wrong, per se, with this WL quote. Am I missing something big here?

[Robert]

So basically I see nothing wrong, per se, with this WL quote. Am I missing something big here?


Yes, indeed. My last words. In positive way it seems to match to those verses. I also understand and assume what he meant. But are we sure what he meant?
I think, that if Bible says "circle", You catch meaning. But some teachers still want to be more clear than Holy Spirit and add: circle is round.
Unfortunately there are thousands of religious concreted minds killing innocent saints. I've talked yesterday with Bro from LC, first time after few years. He is still i LC but what he experiences in spirit is opposite to leading ones behavior and words.
So what I observe or wonder, is how such a concreted saints "experience" Christ if we talk about the same?
I think, LC is preaching "imagined" Christ. We have enough proves here on this forum about it. I was blessed, that I was saved before I met them.
But I think about all those who was told to call three times name of Lord Jesus with assurance that they will be saved.
If I hear mysterious words about abiding in vine tree, I can use my imagination but it will still be only " As the branch can't bear fruit by itself...".
But when teacher gives You supposedly "explanation", automatically You take it more direct without concerning.
But as I said, his word left a gap. How to check, what means "experience Christ"?
That is why we was called in James to act words not only speak.
There is a private space for intimate relationship with Savior.
WL made this space like bedroom with glass walls.
I think, that unknowingly, this teaching was a garden gate for hindu perception. Visualization. If You do not know this teaching just check Yourself.

[Robert]

P.S.
My "taste" or rather spiritual sense, allowed me to recognize saints by spirit. So off course there are some really loving Jesus and saints. If not, I would not be there for so long.
So way of reading that quoted words is individual matter. But fruits will be visible, sooner or later.

[Trapped]

I think the issue is the frequent refrain when it comes to Witness Lee that "the Bible doesn't really say that" or at least "the Bible reeeeeealllly doesn't say it that way".

I may be wrong but I think this is what Raptor alluded to.

What does it mean to "take someone as my person"?

Where does my own person go? Does the Bible say we need to do this?

It doesn't mean anything.

The Bible says things differently. I don't have time to get into it detailedly right now, but Witness Lee always seemed to teach things in a way that obliterates who we are.

The truth is......what Lee says here is not an across the board thing. Each of us, I think, can be fully mature Christians.....and yet still have very different tastes, feelings, inclinations, and preferences. And none of those things are bad or wrong.

But without that distinction, it just seems like everything we taste/feel/inclined/prefer needs to go and be replaced by Christ. But the Bible never represents a body of Christ with those characteristics......one where each member has no special characteristics. It's patently not in the Bible.

I mean, I'm not ever going to like vanilla ice cream with fruity chunks in it, no matter what. I'll always prefer some chocolatey thing. And another Christian is never going to want chocolate. Has one of them failed? Of course not. What concrete things does "His preferences become our preferences" refer to? I'm not disputing this happens in some ways, but Lee is too broad here to be meaningful.

If he is speaking about, say, sinful inclinations in particular, I would agree more with what Lee is saying here, except I wouldn't say "take Christ as my Person". I would say something more like "as we walk in obedience to Christ". And I would make it clear that the things that need to be conformed to Christ are not wholesale the way Lee has described, but things that can be brought into submission while we still retain a whole lot of individual distinction that makes each of us who we are and the specific person God made us to be.

The thing is, I know there are times in our Christian life where it seems like God is speaking/leading in a particular way that has nothing to do with sin or not, and has nothing to do with what makes sense to us. But I don't think that's how it happens all the time. And that kind of thing isn't really something you can legislate or make overarching principles about. It's just about doing what you can tell, to the best of your ability, that He is nudging you to do. I feel like it's those types of experiences with the Lord that Nee/Lee try to make seem happen all the time, and then they try to make sweeping statements about how that should go down that don't match the Bible at all.

They, as usual, are just wrong.

Trapped

[Nell]

"When we experience Christ as our person, his taste will become our taste, his feelings will become our feelings, his inclinations will become our inclinations, and his preferences will become our preferences." Witness Lee

Sounds good, right? How bad could it be? Other than not supported by Scripture, it sounds pretty good. It's what I'll call a "teaching" non-essential to the Christian faith, as are many of Witness Lee's "teachings" in his "ministry".

Lee used such non-essentials to maintain control over the faithful. Said practice continues today in the "church life" and in websites like faithfulword.org. For example, the non-essential "Overcomer" teaching causes/caused fear among the believers, rather than a loving relationship between God and his children. We are left to do as we are told by a few men, rather than learn to trust and obey our Father.

The question remains, as in "overcomer", how do you know when you are experiencing "the person of Christ"? How do you know his taste, his feelings, his inclinations, and his preferences? Speculation? We know that Jesus is God. We read descriptions of his actions from the accounts in the gospels. Past that, we can only speculate on his personality. There is no indication that these descriptions are a prescription for how we should live our Christian lives.

In fact, we know that God made each of us as individuals with tastes, feelings, inclinations and preferences of our own. Why would God require us to surrender our individuality...our uniqueness?

We are individual in our body, soul and spirit. Our bodies are distinct right down to the molecular level...our DNA. Of the billions of humans who have ever lived, from eternity past, no two are alike. (Of course, identical twins excluded.)

God created us and gave us individual tastes, feelings, inclinations and preferences. Combined with many other things, this makes us who we are. He wants to grow in us in all things. Witness Lee wants to indoctrinate us to become something we are not, and never could be.

IMHO
Nell

[Robert]

I just want to give balance to what I said.

On one hand I understand what he possibly could have in mind.
When we are led by Spirit, in obedience to Jesus, we can experience oneness with Him, and sometimes we can be limited in our preferences, and can be transformed into His image. Like denying our soul, which includes out taste, preferences etc.
In that meaning all we can and should experience such a state. Like being in sabbath- rest from our works.
But as Nell mentioned, mostly these non-essential words created big field to next suggestions what is what, end never ending definitions of definitions.

That is why I trust more the Bible than books about Bible.

For me big question often coming back is, if he was conscious of what he was doing ( controlling?) with others life?

[Nell]

Even if the Lord has given someone to you, He will not allow you to be attached to him or her. He will not allow you to be attached to your wife, your children, or your friends. Even the Isaac that God promised had to be put on the altar. Many Christians have failed because their hearts are captured by people.
Watchman Nee
The Collected Works of Watchman Nee
(Set 2) Vol. 24: The Overcoming Life
Chapter 12 Section 3

I would say that Watchman Nee failed. In fact, do we know that Nee was a disciple, based on this hideous comment...love but don't get attached...?

John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you,
35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Nell

[Trapped]

Even if the Lord has given someone to you, He will not allow you to be attached to him or her. He will not allow you to be attached to your wife, your children, or your friends. Even the Isaac that God promised had to be put on the altar. Many Christians have failed because their hearts are captured by people.
Watchman Nee
The Collected Works of Watchman Nee
(Set 2) Vol. 24: The Overcoming Life
Chapter 12 Section 3

I would say that Watchman Nee failed. In fact, do we know that Nee was a disciple, based on this hideous comment...love but don't get attached...?

John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you,
35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Nell

"Hideous" is a very appropriate word.

These guys never learned that OT stories do not mean "what they went through you must go through too or else".

"God will not allow you to be attached to your wife/children"??? Prove it!

God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son to die to save us. What is that......some kind of "detached love" or something? Man these guys make me mad.

Trapped

[Robert]

Originally Posted by False Teacher Watchman Nee
Even if the Lord has given someone to you, He will not allow you to be attached to him or her. He will not allow you to be attached to your wife, your children, or your friends. Even the Isaac that God promised had to be put on the altar. Many Christians have failed because their hearts are captured by people.
Watchman Nee

Lk 14:26
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

So how we can deal with that?

Another example of misinterpreted words.
Generally as I said before many times: they were Chinese philosophers. The more they wanted to explain the more possibilities they gave to be misunderstood.
If we value more opinion of wife than Jesus, then we can not be His disciples.
I heard also one brother saying, that Jesus used hyperbole to show, that compared loving Him and pursuing we will make decision to love Lord and hate relatives, people who are not doing His will. Our soul also is against God, so we have to submit our will and desires.
That is why mentioned about hating own soul (psyche).
My wife is not always in Spirit. I have many occasions to chose Christ's leading rather than wives suggestions, desires or wishes.
Other words, we have to die for them to be able live in spiritual reality.
It did not mean to leave kids, wife, sisters and brothers. It was only about being disciple of Christ.
We are His disciples, when He is speaking and we are doers. Listening and learning doers.

So I do not have problem with that certain quote. I know what he meant by this.

[Robert]

I think, that we can find two types of "controversial" sentences or quotes.

1. Realy unbiblical idea or heresy.
2. Statement or sentence taken out of large context.

I try to be fair and share only that first.
Otherwise, I can do that second with any sentence of any man.

[Nell]

"Hideous" is a very appropriate word.

These guys never learned that OT stories do not mean "what they went through you must go through too or else".

"God will not allow you to be attached to your wife/children"??? Prove it!

God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son to die to save us. What is that......some kind of "detached love" or something? Man these guys make me mad.

Trapped

I think UntoHim digs this stuff up on purpose. :yep:

Nell

[UntoHim]

I think UntoHim digs this stuff up on purpose. :yep:
What? Lil ole me? Nah....:p

Even the Isaac that God promised had to be put on the altar.

You're right Watchman, Abraham did obey God and put his son on the alter, but Abraham didn't have to actually sacrifice him, now did he? But this is what Nee is requiring of believers, and it is hideous, and it is unbiblical, and it is dangerous. In 2 Timothy 3 the apostle Paul linked "without natural affection" with "lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive" and a number of other despicable traits. Some translations use the word "heartless". Watchman Nee is asking believers to be heartless to our spouse, our children and our friends. The God of the Bible does not ask us to be heartless to anyone, much, much less to those to whom we are the closest.

Many Christians have failed because their hearts are captured by people.

Actually Watchman, your Local Church movement has failed miserably because your follower's hearts are not captured by people - because their hearts are already captured by the person and work of Watchman and Witness. Their hearts are captured and their hearts are full. They are content to reign as kings without the rest of the body of Christ, and even without their spouses, their children or their friends. May God have mercy.
-

[Trapped]

I think, that we can find two types of "controversial" sentences or quotes.

1. Realy unbiblical idea or heresy.
2. Statement or sentence taken out of large context.

I try to be fair and share only that first.
Otherwise, I can do that second with any sentence of any man.

Robert,

When Watchman Nee says "God will not allow you to become attached to your wife"......this is not simply 'taken out of context'. It is a lie. It is not true. It reminds me of some of those pop-Christian YouTube videos out there with thumbnails that say things like "10 weird things God will do before He allows a special person to come into your life!" Actually that's a bad comparison.....it doesn't remind me of them because it's much worse than them.

It's not according to biblical truth. It is not defensible. It belongs in the dark because it is not of the light. It DOES indeed fall into the first category of "unbiblical idea".

You absolutely CAN be attached to your wife, and STILL give God the pre-eminence. "Becoming one flesh" while simultaneously "not being attached" is just more nonsense from Watchman Nee.

Trapped

[Trapped]

You're right Watchman, Abraham did obey God and put his son on the alter, but Abraham didn't have to actually sacrifice him, now did he? But this is what Nee is requiring of believers, and it is hideous, and it is unbiblical, and it is dangerous. In 2 Timothy 3 the apostle Paul linked "without natural affection" with "lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive" and a number of other despicable traits. Some translations use the word "heartless". Watchman Nee is asking believers to be heartless to our spouse, our children and our friends. The God of the Bible does not ask us to be heartless to anyone, much, much less to those to whom we are the closest-

Absolutely. Once again Nee/Lee is calling something good evil and something evil good. They uplift and promote the abhorrent and twisted, and condemn what is really of God.......but they do it in such a way that it slips past all the minds that have been told to stop functioning when they walk through the meeting hall doors.

Thank you for providing one of the few places where this kind of behavior can be exposed!

Trapped

[Robert]

Robert,

When Watchman Nee says "God will not allow you to become attached to your wife"......this is not simply 'taken out of context'. It is a lie. It is not true. It reminds me of some of those pop-Christian YouTube videos out there with thumbnails that say things like "10 weird things God will do before He allows a special person to come into your life!" Actually that's a bad comparison.....it doesn't remind me of them because it's much worse than them.

It's not according to biblical truth. It is not defensible. It belongs in the dark because it is not of the light. It DOES indeed fall into the first category of "unbiblical idea".

You absolutely CAN be attached to your wife, and STILL give God the pre-eminence. "Becoming one flesh" while simultaneously "not being attached" is just more nonsense from Watchman Nee.

Trapped

I explained my point of view or interpretation in post before one You quoted.
Just read it. You answered to additional which makes no sense.
No need to repeat it. However I do agree with You about thousands others his philosophical mixtures of word of God and his ideas.

[UntoHim]

I think, that we can find two types of "controversial" sentences or quotes.
1. Really unbiblical idea or heresy.
2. Statement or sentence taken out of large context.
I try to be fair and share only that first.
Otherwise, I can do that second with any sentence of any man.

I wanted to briefly address this post from Robert because I think it's a fair and legitimate concern.

Firstly, for many years I have posted 300+ quotes and quips per year on the forum. Although I try my best, every once in awhile I unintentionally post a stinker. Such is the occupational hazard of an Internet forum admin.

Robert, I must tell you all that I am extra careful and attentive when posting on the "Watchman/Witness Wednesday" module. I generally double-check the accuracy of the quote with both LSM and outside sources (if available) I also try to include as much of the surrounding context as is reasonable and practical. If it is not reasonable and practical I try to leave a link to the source document so that the reader can research for themselves. I hope this addresses your concern regarding "large context".

And speaking of context - I think it should be obvious to all that there are some words, terms and statements that universally stand on there own, and cannot (or should not) be mitigated by claims of "out of context" or "there is a fuller context". For example, if one states that "Jesus Christ did not rise from the dead" there is absolutely no proviso, addendum or qualifier that could mitigate such a gross heresy. If one states "God is not righteous" the same would apply. I think we're all familiar with LSMs infamous "we are becoming God in life and nature, but not in the Godhead". This statement implies that God's life and nature can somehow be separated from his very being. Of course this notion is as preposterous as it is heretical. There are probably multiple dozens of examples from Witness Lee's ministry that I could site here and now, but one could peruse this forum and find them easily enough.
-

[Trapped]

This is what is before the quote in question:

The first thing we should consecrate are the people we love. If a man does not love the Lord more than his parents, wife, children, and friends, he is not worthy to be the Lord's disciple. If you have consecrated yourself to the Lord, there should be no one in this world that can occupy your heart and nothing that can capture your heart any longer. God saves you in order to gain you wholly. Many tears pull you back. Many human sentiments bid you to return to them. Many heartbreaks persuade you to turn back. You have to say, "Lord, all my relationships with men are on the altar. My relationship with the whole world is over."

When the wife of a brother was sick, and others asked him to pray for his wife, he said, "God has not told me to pray for her yet!" When another asked whether he would grieve if his wife died, he said, "She has died to me already." Another brother had a good friend, and God wanted him to drop this friend. He could only obey. He told the Lord, "If You want this, I am willing to give it up."

This is common of Nee/Lee's ministry. What they say in the previous part, the first two sentences, about being worthy to be the Lord's disciple, is from the Bible.

But then the next part where he claims that means "no one in this world can occupy your heart" is wrong. It produces conclusions like "my wife should not occupy my heart AT ALL." And then we get sad stories of sick wives doing the dishes and husbands coming home and leaving their wife in silence as they go to bed because they don't want to "be natural" or "of their selves" or in this case, be concerned about "my wife occupying my heart."

Nee seemingly elaborates and gives real-world examples of being the Lord's disciple, but the example is NOT from the Bible. The Bible already tell us to pray! We CAN pray unceasingly.......and are not kept from praying until God tells us to. Someone basically saying they would not grieve if their wife died? All of these things are descriptions of, like, stoicism or something......not regenerated human beings.

I get there is a way to say that we must follow the Lord above people when He is asking us to. But this doesn't mean we toss all people aside all the time in the name of "loving God". That is contrary to the Bible.

The commands are to love God and love people.

Nee's commands seem to be love God and withdraw/turn your back on/do not get attached to/be cold towards people.

Trapped

[Robert]

I get there is a way to say that we must follow the Lord above people when He is asking us to. But this doesn't mean we toss all people aside all the time in the name of "loving God". That is contrary to the Bible.

Dear, Trapped!
I fully understand and agree with, that their ministry was as it was ( no need to describe).
As You know, in bread is flour and leaven.
We can find in their teaching flour and leaven.
Whatever You add from that book as "context" will be just another part to deal with.
I've commented only that certain quote.
This certain quote was not bad by itself.
According another piece You attached is the same situation. Some sentences are in line with our experiences and Word, but some are stupid, philosophical and deceptive.

That is why I do not read their works anymore.

But one think I can admit: I got really good skill to find all those hidden leaven among good flour.
After I left this corporation I strongly recommend saints to read only Bible to detox.

[Robert]

I wanted to briefly address this post from Robert because I think it's a fair and legitimate concern.

I hope nobody took my post personally as accusation.
It was just my free thought.
I am aware of false teachings and hidden deceptive and false claims.
But it does not change meaning of what I said.
I am glad that You chose quotes carefully.

Trapped gave good example of more clear mixed and false teaching.
1,2,3 sentences and then... BANG! So stupid and extreme example given by WN.

Generally, I think, WN and WL went too far with explaining and interpretation of our spiritual experiences.
Only people not familiar with Word of God can believe, that they were MOTA.
Brothers? I think Yes. Special, gifted? Somehow- Yes.
But MOTA? Uhmmm... rather not!
edit: I commented only posted quote ( about "being attached"). Whatever was before and after- only that part.

[Ohio]

Firstly, for many years I have posted 300+ quotes and quips per year on the forum. Although I try my best, every once in awhile I unintentionally post a stinker. Such is the occupational hazard of an Internet forum admin.

I, for one, would like to thank you and express my heartfelt appreciation for your labor of love finding all these quotes and quips, the numerous verses, the many songs, and the untold character sketches of notable Christians past and present, all of which really add to the presentation of LC Discussions. :thumbup:

[Cal]

What's sad about Nee's view is it is actually narcissistic. It's all about HIS spiritual condition. It's not about the need of another. He doesn't pray for the wife because he wants to be "pure." But that's actually selfish. What about the wife's inherent value in herself? What about her need? What about the Lord's love for her? It's not considered at all here.

It's really childish to be thinking "I don't want to pray for someone because I'm still natural." What you need to do is get to a place where you can pray for her. But Nee is too wrapped up in being "spiritual."

Imagine a firefighter thinking "I can't go into that building to save that person from dying because my motivations are too natural. So I'll just them burn up. See how spiritual I am?"

It's really that stupid.

[Robert]

When the wife of a brother was sick, and others asked him to pray for his wife, he said, "God has not told me to pray for her yet!" When another asked whether he would grieve if his wife died, he said, "She has died to me already." Another brother had a good friend, and God wanted him to drop this friend. He could only obey. He told the Lord, "If You want this, I am willing to give it up."

This is just another proof that he was under influence of east philosophers.
It was kind a "higher stage of conscience". Probably he wanted to be more holy than Jesus.
I remember Jesus, crying after He saw how much people loved Lazarus.
Very interesting contrast. Jesus as God, knowing content of hearts, knowing that death in His eyes was only sleep, started to cry together with them.
I see spontaneous and immediate reaction. Compassion and love.
I can see fruits of that teaching after 30 years. Some leading brothers are stone hearted when saints coming with burden, crying, suffering and pouring out hearts.
Reaction is similar to quoted. "I have no feeling about it". Or even worse- silence.
All this happen when in blind way saints accept teaching without concerning.
Can we become "christs"? Can we reproduce Christ? Can we become Word?
When we swallow such a small changes or paraphrases then it is easy to build false teaching and stick to strange spirits.

[Cal]

One gets the impression from Nee that the Bible was not nearly as important as Christians generally consider it. In his book The Ministry of God’s Word, Nee says, "Words alone cannot be considered God’s Word." In this book, Nee becomes very philosophical, mystical and incoherent.
He says that only as we deliver the Word in terms of the "reality behind it," using what he calls "Holy Spirit memory" and "presenting the pictures as well as speaking the words" will the words be correct; otherwise they are not real.
"Watching Out For Watchman Nee" G. Richard Fisher apologeticsindex.org

One could claim that Nee is saying there is a reality behind the words that the words by themselves cannot fully convey. And that would be true. All biblical interpretation contains some element of subjectivity.

But this fact is actually a refutation of the idea that anyone can be the final arbiter on what the Bible means. That is, that anyone could be the minister of the age. Because ultimately what one is dealing with is the subjective view of a person whose view may be influenced by the Holy Spirit and many not be. Or may be partially to any degree possible, from 0% to 100%.

Thus Nee in this statement is actually giving us reason NOT to believe that any minister of the age can actually exist, and NOT to believe that anyone who claims to be such should be accepted as such.

Yet Nee asserted that a MOTA could exist, as did Lee, which shows they were both contradictory, and confused.

[Robert]

One could claim that Nee is saying there is a reality behind the words that the words by themselves cannot fully convey. And that would be true. All biblical interpretation contains some element of subjectivity.

But this fact is actually a refutation of the idea that anyone can be the final arbiter on what the Bible means. That is, that anyone could be the minister of the age. Because ultimately what one is dealing with is the subjective view of a person whose view may be influenced by the Holy Spirit and many not be. Or may be partially to any degree possible, from 0% to 100%.

Thus Nee in this statement is actually giving us reason NOT to believe that any minister of the age can actually exist, and NOT to believe that anyone who claims to be such should be accepted as such.

Yet Nee asserted that a MOTA could exist, as did Lee, which shows they were both contradictory, and confused.

I think, they both did the same mistake as John Baptist did.
John the Baptist had proper revelation of Christ. He knew, Jesus was lamb of God. He baptized Jesus. But after all he continued his ministry, not directing to Jesus.
Sounds this similar?
WN and WL, started (if not always) to pay attention more to teaching and ministry itself as tool, than on Christ.
Let's imagine, that they saw something and was simply writers of books.
Without LSM, and this strong connections and all this exaltation them.
How many writers have their own church now?
All people outside and inside LC knew it is WL's church.
Even Minoru gave a testimony, that he is of WL's spirit.
Ted Wen was very close to WL. But this dear brother was living in shadow just enjoying Christ. I had a honor to be with him few times. Very humble and precious brother.
So I just wonder, what was atmosphere there in Anaheim in 90'?
Was he really adored by others so much? Can we see fruit of this now in Ron's and Minoru's words?
Or just unfaithful people made an icon from him after he died?

[Nell]

The system of fathers of the world church, the clergy system of the state church, and the pastoral system of the independent churches are all the same in nature. They are all Nicolaitans. In the Bible there are only brothers. There is the gift of a pastor, but no system of pastors. The pastoral system is man's tradition. If the children of God are not willing to return to the position of that in the beginning, no matter what they do, it will not be right.

Watchman Nee, The Orthodoxy Of The Church page 38

Can we add this:
"The 'Blended Brothers' in the Local Church of Witness Lee also joined the Nicolaitans. While in the Bible there are only brothers, that does not include the so called 'Blended Brothers.' If the Blended Brothers are not willing to return to the position of that in the beginning, no matter what they do, it will not be right."

[UntoHim]

To be a Christian is not merely difficult—it is impossible. Only the processed and consummated Triune God living in us as the all-inclusive Spirit can be a Christian. What the New Testament requires of us is too high….We praise the Lord that it is not we who need to fulfill the New Testament requirements but the Spirit in us who fulfills them. Instead of doing things in ourselves, we should simply enjoy His living and His working. Only the Spirit can be a Christian, and only the Spirit can be an overcomer. Remember, the Spirit is our God, our Father, our Lord, our Redeemer, our Savior, our Shepherd, and our life and life supply.
Witness Lee (HWMR-Week 4 Day 6)

No, Witness, it is not impossible to be a Christian. In fact, you yourself have preached how easy it is - "Just call out 'Oh, Lord Jesus' and you will be saved". What makes it harder, and all the more confusing, are all the overly-complicated, dime store catch phrases like "The processed and consummated Triune God in us as the all-inclusive Spirit".

Is it impossible for us to pick up our cross and follow him? No, it is not impossible. Is it impossible for us to deny ourselves and take the Father's will instead of our own will? No, it is not impossible. Is is impossible for us to "fulfill the New Testament requirements"? No it is not impossible.

"Only the Spirit can be a Christian, and only the Spirit can be an overcomer." Maybe so, brother Lee, maybe so. But only we, the Body of Christ, can "be his hands and feet". Only we, frail and week flesh and blood, can pass out the five loafs and two fishes to the multitudes. Only we, people of little faith, can hold forth the Word as the Light of the World, and the only truth that can set free. Only we, selfish hypocrites not worthy to represent the Maker of Heaven and Earth, can be the city set on a hill, shining forth the light so that "they may see our good works and give glory to our Father who is in heaven".
-

[Ohio]

To be a Christian is not merely difficult—it is impossible. Only the processed and consummated Triune God living in us as the all-inclusive Spirit can be a Christian. What the New Testament requires of us is too high….We praise the Lord that it is not we who need to fulfill the New Testament requirements but the Spirit in us who fulfills them. Instead of doing things in ourselves, we should simply enjoy His living and His working. Only the Spirit can be a Christian, and only the Spirit can be an overcomer. Remember, the Spirit is our God, our Father, our Lord, our Redeemer, our Savior, our Shepherd, and our life and life supply.
Witness Lee (HWMR-Week 4 Day 6)In (former LC co-worker) John Myer's latest blog post, he addressed some of the dynamics behind these sorts of outlandish statements by WL. Here's his opening lines:
When a hard heart develops, a hard head is sure to follow.
All Christians aim for the perfection of spiritual maturity, but some of them, like me, often find themselves switching lanes into legalism. It only gets worse when we mistakenly brand ourselves with terms borrowed from Scripture, like “overcomers,” “conquerors,” “warriors,” etc.

The rest of Myer's brief, but appropriately titled article, is here: "Too Perfect to Understand Anything" (https://bareknuckle.org/2022/01/26/too-perfect-to-understand-anything/)Instead of WL's "overly-complicated, dime store catch phrases" (thanks UntoHim), John Myer presents the Biblical way of grace. Here's one example:
"It is all grace—that wonderful reality that deals with a sinner more effectively than any threat of punishment ever could. It is grace that humbles, that wins the heart, that affects the change. This is God’s way—not to pretend sins haven’t been committed, but to so thoroughly root them out as to leave the sinner himself amazed."

[Paul Vusik]

"Only the Spirit can be a Christian, and only the Spirit can be an overcomer."

Unfortunately for these frauds that sell this mumbo jumbo, when they stand before God, they wouldn’t be able to blame the Spirit for not living up to the name that they have called themselves! There is no further distance that one can make up between the true work of the Holy Sprit, than that which is promoted and taught by TLR. I pray that God has some mercy and grace on some people that eat this junk food every day in these HWMRs, because if you have the real Holy Spirit in you, the last place He will lead you, is to these frauds and the plague dispensary, (AKA LSM).

[Ohio]

To be a Christian is not merely difficult—it is impossible. Only the processed and consummated Triune God living in us as the all-inclusive Spirit can be a Christian. What the New Testament requires of us is too high….We praise the Lord that it is not we who need to fulfill the New Testament requirements but the Spirit in us who fulfills them. Instead of doing things in ourselves, we should simply enjoy His living and His working. Only the Spirit can be a Christian, and only the Spirit can be an overcomer. Remember, the Spirit is our God, our Father, our Lord, our Redeemer, our Savior, our Shepherd, and our life and life supply.
Brother Witness Lee, I would really like to know why when you learned about your son Phiip molesting the sisters who volunteered in your ministry office, why didn't you practice this teaching?

Why did you do "everything in yourselves" by smearing the reputations of the elders in Anaheim whose only "crime" was trying to protect their saints? You criminally libeled and slandered them!

Why didn't you instruct your staff to "simply enjoy His living and His working?" What does the Bible say about those who don't practice what they preach?

[Zezima]

To be a Christian is not merely difficult—it is impossible. Only the processed and consummated Triune God living in us as the all-inclusive Spirit can be a Christian. What the New Testament requires of us is too high….We praise the Lord that it is not we who need to fulfill the New Testament requirements but the Spirit in us who fulfills them. Instead of doing things in ourselves, we should simply enjoy His living and His working. Only the Spirit can be a Christian, and only the Spirit can be an overcomer. Remember, the Spirit is our God, our Father, our Lord, our Redeemer, our Savior, our Shepherd, and our life and life supply.


To be a Christian isn’t impossible. We are saved by grace through faith. What can’t we do that the New Testament requires of us?

[UntoHim]

We have to wait until the thing is done before we know whether we are right or wrong.
Watchman Nee

Boy, does this kind of thinking explain a lot, or what!
-

[Ohio]

We have to wait until the thing is done before we know whether we are right or wrong.
Watchman Nee

Boy, does this kind of thinking explain a lot, or what!
-
Very telling. Kind of defines esoteric thinking -- must be deep and scholarly because we can't understand it. Why do Nee and Lee downplay the function of the "shallow" conscience, replacing it with some nebulous "life test?" Please explain to me "the test of life." And why did Apostle Paul waste his time exercising himself to have a conscience void of offense?
Many of God's children discern right from wrong according to the conscience. However, we should know that the human conscience is still something very shallow. Life is something much deeper than the conscience. Some things often pass the test of the conscience but may not necessarily pass the test of life. Occasionally we do things by way of "trial and error." If our conscience is clear after we have done something, we thank God for it, and if our conscience is guilty, we ask God for forgiveness. We have to wait until the thing is done before we know whether we are right or wrong.

[Zezima]

Very telling. Kind of defines esoteric thinking -- must be deep and scholarly because we can't understand it. Why do Nee and Lee downplay the function of the "shallow" conscience, replacing it with some nebulous "life test?" Please explain to me "the test of life." And why did Apostle Paul waste his time exercising himself to have a conscience void of offense?

Because then they can claim to have it, and lord it over people.

[Paul Vusik]

Very telling. Kind of defines esoteric thinking -- must be deep and scholarly because we can't understand it. Why do Nee and Lee downplay the function of the "shallow" conscience, replacing it with some nebulous "life test?" Please explain to me "the test of life." And why did Apostle Paul waste his time exercising himself to have a conscience void of offense?

When one rejects the faith and good conscience (1 Tim) or has seared conscience, that never leads one to the truth. THEN you have to rely on the “test of life”, to find out if wherever you’re doing a right or a wrong thing!

This line of thinking comes from antinomians, who are taught to master the art of quiet denial.

[countmeworthy]

»Wednesday Feb 23 Watchman Nee:
Once we are in the church, we should not have any distinction outside of Christ. Everyone stands on new ground. There is no place for superiority or inferiority. We must eliminate the denominational and sectarian thoughts from our hearts. If we do this, there will be no division in the meeting of the church of God and in the fellowship between the saints. We have to pay attention to these matters in the meeting, and we have to live out such a life in our daily walk.

While I believe wholeheartedly in this truth, I have never experienced it myself nor do I know anyone or any group of believers who ever did or do so now. So, when did Watchman Nee or his protege Witness Lee ever practice this concept of the church?🤔

How different is the Lord’s Recovery different from denominations or non denominations in their operations?

May our Great God and KING of Glory have exceedingly great mercy on His people.

[Paul Vusik]

Nee quote from Wednesday:
“Once we are in the church, we should not have any distinction outside of Christ. Everyone stands on new ground. There is no place for superiority or inferiority. We must eliminate the denominational and sectarian thoughts from our hearts. If we do this, there will be no division in the meeting of the church of God and in the fellowship between the saints. We have to pay attention to these matters in the meeting, and we have to live out such a life in our daily walk.”



The biggest issue I have with that quote, is that it devalues distinction and makes it sound that everyone is the same. In my most recent conversation with someone from TLR, I said that one of the biggest issues I had wihile my time in the “exclusive club” aka “the church”, is that it so oppressive in the way they describe the so called body. Why is everyone has to be the same? Does the body of Christ has 5 million toes and 10 million arms? Why does everyone in their description of the body has to look the same, dress the same, eat the same, say the same slogans, mantras? Why is everyone needs to even experience the same nonsensical emotional exercises? Why is there a one size fits all mentality? Are there gifts in the body of Christ beside regurgitating and parroting the “man”? Are there some that are more gifted than others? Does my toe has the same function as my arm? Does it need the same amount of exercise or care?

That concept comes straight from the communist playbook. When I was growing up in communist USSR, everyone must and I repeat MUST, follow the visions of one man (Lenin), look the same way, follow his teachings, repeat his mantras, and everyone except the top 1% of so called totally devoted man, had privileges and opportunities. Besides them, everyone worked for nothing, government owned you and your family. God forbid you step out of line, you question the “man”, or even consider to leave the party if you were a full fledged member. It would cost you everything. The man who had skills more than others or those who were more gifted, would only be able to get better positions of work or opportunity to advance if they show that they were willing to sacrifice more for the goals of the party, even at the expense of their beliefs, and family. “You doing it for the good of others, for the party, for the corporate community, “ you were taught.

As far as I’m concerned, that’s not the way church was, is, or should be. That’s a man made system, no church! These man installed themselves as some modern day “Moses”, have no idea of what it means to be a real shepherds and real care takers of Gods people. Their love and devotion to the idea of self importance and self exaltaction, is what drives them to create these templates for everyone to jump through, while they pretend to be the most humblest and most meek people. It’s far easier to manage one size fits all systems, since it can only go between point A and point B, and everything must fall in those parameters, otherwise it’s foreign and unsuitable. God is put in box of man, and all man women and children, all teachings, all writing, all speaking, all and all, must be viewed only through that box. That’s an awful experience to go through and calling that “LIFE”, is a scam!

It also very interesting that the kind of people that those so called “church” systems attract: people who have been under those heavy, unilateral, dictator type regimes in there lives. People who have been abused and destroyed by man, under the guise of “Care and security”. People who have no idea what grace and liberty are and never experienced those things in their lives. They don’t know any better, because they just never want to stand on their own two feet, and because fear has crippled their clear and sound thinking. They would rather live on their knees, than stand on their feet from the fear of death or drowning!
(One should see which countries and what parts of the world this system is most popular in, and then see what those people in those environments have lived through, and how much similarities there are in them).

God is so simple, able to stand with you, beside you, and take anyone through the fiercest of storms and of narrowest of ways! He is not a system, He is a living Being! He is building His body, and we are all different, all have different gifts and functions. That’s what church is, and that’s what it’s all about. I have ten fingers and ten toes, and even those have different functions. Make it simple, make it understandable. No need to complicate things to make it sound more spiritual or call it “special revelation” of sorts.

[Ohio]

Great points, Paul. Totally agree with you.

I remember Née/Lee’s comments on the 7 churches in Revelation, “all the differences between the churches were negative.” Repeated a million times. But read again. The differences between the churches were also POSITIVE. The Lord commended the churches positively too.

The underlying message in the ministry of Née/Lee is control and manipulation. Differences, like the diverse gifts given to each member, are a threat to their power structure.

[countmeworthy]

Great points, Paul. Totally agree with you.

I remember Née/Lee’s comments on the 7 churches in Revelation, “all the differences between the churches were negative.” Repeated a million times. But read again. The differences between the churches were also POSITIVE. The Lord commended the churches positively too.

The underlying message in the ministry of Née/Lee is control and manipulation. Differences, like the diverse gifts given to each member, are a threat to their power structure.

Thanks for the clarifications. I had forgotten how everyone in TLR dressed alike, spoke alike, clenched their fists when testifying. Back in my day, people testified not “prophesied”.

I was merely thinking as true believers in Christ we should not call ourselves Baptists, Catholics, TLR, etc…. We are true believers learning, growing and maturing. We should be lights in the dark. In heaven or in the New Jerusalem, we are not going to be asking each other “what denomination were you in?”

[Paul Vusik]

Thanks for the clarifications. I had forgotten how everyone in TLR dressed alike, spoke alike, clenched their fists when testifying. Back in my day, people testified not “prophesied”.

I was merely thinking as true believers in Christ we should not call ourselves Baptists, Catholics, TLR, etc…. We are true believers learning, growing and maturing. We should be lights in the dark. In heaven or in the New Jerusalem, we are not going to be asking each other “what denomination were you in?”

Countmeworthy,

My response to the quote was kind of not what you where asking in your questions, but my own personal thoughts. When I saw the quote on Wednesday, it didn’t sit well with me, and I didn’t have time during a week to respond, so I saved it.

To comment on what you asking, I’m in the line of thinking that there shouldn’t be people who are just for the sake of superiority and some secondary issues divide the body of Christ into Baptist, Pentecost, Anglican, etc. There is one body, and what’s great is that Christ is the Head, and these self appointed gurus that think they are the necks that hold the head, and can move and twist it whichever way they think is going to fit their ideology, are just delusional.

[Paul Vusik]

Great points, Paul. Totally agree with you.

I remember Née/Lee’s comments on the 7 churches in Revelation, “all the differences between the churches were negative.” Repeated a million times. But read again. The differences between the churches were also POSITIVE. The Lord commended the churches positively too.

The underlying message in the ministry of Née/Lee is control and manipulation. Differences, like the diverse gifts given to each member, are a threat to their power structure.

Spiritual Communism, is a deadly plague! It hasn’t worked in the real world as a system, nor will it ever work in the church, or under the calling of “church”. Just like in the world, it may look good for awhile outside, but eventually it will implode from inside, because people will realize that they are being used to fulfill someone else’s desires and dreams, at the expense of themselves and their family and children. They will end up standing like a hungry, destroyed sheep, in front of the broken trough, with nothing to show for the decades waisted on building the “ark”, that doesn’t float.

[GraceAlone]

My children often ask me when I can take a vacation,
and I say, “My vacation is to work.” The Lord did not give me the opportunity to take a vacation. If all the churches progress, I will take a vacation, and I will be happy. I must labor until I go to be with the Lord. I will not rest, because the burden is heavy. Everything is in the hands of the Lord, and He can make us strong.

This was interesting and poignant to read (not only because it hints at the unmet needs of his family) because the theme of rest keeps coming up in my Scripture study lately. Our pastor recently preached a whole sermon on Sabbath and how we practice it today. And I’ve been reading through the books of Law, where God repeatedly insists that His people take regular times to refrain completely from work and rest. Why? Not just because they’d be tired. No, He almost always follows it with “I am the Lord your God.” Sabbath rests remind us that He, not we, is God. He alone is responsible and capable to keep the universe running. It’s a humbling acknowledgment of that fact when our striving-prone selves step back and rest. Lee’s last line seems to nod to that truth, but it’s also incongruous with his boasting above.

It’s hard to recognize his God sometimes.

[UntoHim]

My children often ask me when I can take a vacation, and I say, “My vacation is to work.” The Lord did not give me the opportunity to take a vacation. If all the churches progress, I will take a vacation, and I will be happy. I must labor until I go to be with the Lord. I will not rest, because the burden is heavy. Everything is in the hands of the Lord, and He can make us strong.

It’s a humbling acknowledgment of that fact when our striving-prone selves step back and rest. Lee’s last line seems to nod to that truth, but it’s also incongruous with his boasting above.
It’s hard to recognize his God sometimes.

Thanks for this one GraceAlone! It almost sends chills up my spin when someone actually verbalizes what many of us have known in our hearts and minds for decades - - At times it seems that the "God" that was preached and taught in the Local Church of Witness Lee is a different god than the God that we see in the pages of the Holy Scriptures. It's a very, very hard thing for many of us former LC members to wrap our minds around. But this is nothing new in Christian history. The apostle Paul warned the Corinthians about receiving "a different Jesus", "a different Spirit" and "a different gospel" (2 Cor 11:4) And to be sure, Witness Lee was/is not the only one to preach a different Jesus or a different gospel, but since Lee is the one we are most familiar with, and the one who affected our lives the most, I think it is most appropriate for GraceAlone to make such a shocking statement!

Lee’s last line seems to nod to that truth, but it’s also incongruous with his boasting above.
When I read this I immediately thought of another time when Paul was chiding the Corinthians - "Your boasting is not good". (1Cor 5:6) Witness Lee was a very boastful man, and most of the time his boasting was not good, in fact many times it was downright shameful and embarrassing. But his captive audience ate it up. And now the this boasting has been codified, formalized and systemized into the lifeless and wooden man-made religious sect of the Local Church/Lord's Recovery/Living Stream Ministry. May God have mercy.
-

[UntoHim]

How can we differentiate between the spirit and the emotion? When a man's spirit is released, it is released with his emotion. If his emotion and spirit are in harmony with each other, the release of the spirit will strike a response in us, and we will sense that this release is pure, gentle, and firm. But when a man's spirit is released through his emotion and the two are not in harmony with each other, the result will be an intrusion of the emotion; others will not sense his spirit. His emotion will contaminate his spirit and defile it. When there is only the release of the emotion, without the release of the spirit, this release will be a kind of defilement.
Watchman Nee
The Collected Works of Watchman Nee, Set 3 Vol. 58: Spiritual Judgment and Examples of Judgment

I think I've read this complete quote about 7 or 8 times and I still can't grasp what Watchman Nee is actually saying here. Where in the Bible does it ever tell us that we are to "differentiate between the spirit and the emotion"? I don't think this is our job. This is the job of the Holy Spirit. This is job of the Word of God. Hebrews 4:12 tells us that "the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit". To say that "we will sense that this release is pure" is trusting in man's natural abilities and not in the Spirit or Word of God.

"His emotion will contaminate his spirit and defile it." This is not only nonsensical, it is just plain unbiblical. If it is true that our human spirit is where the Holy Spirit dwells (which Nee taught and the Bible teaches) then it is impossible for our "emotion" to "contaminate" our human spirit. This kind of nonsensical, unbiblical teaching really exemplifies the danger in someone like Watchman Nee becoming the chief theologian for an entire Christian movement. And we all know what happen when Witness Lee assumed the reigns and proceeded on with another 50 years of make-it-up-as-you-go-along theology. Lord have mercy.
-

[Ohio]

I think I've read this complete quote about 7 or 8 times and I still can't grasp what Watchman Nee is actually saying here. Where in the Bible does it ever tell us that we are to "differentiate between the spirit and the emotion"?
-
Translation of Today's Word by WN: Only when WN speaks and is "releasing his spirit" can we actually trust that his spirit has not been defiled by his emotion. Don't trust anyone else because their emotions may have contaminated their spirit and defiled it.

[Trapped]

Maybe I'm losing patience the older I get but more and more whenever I see these kinds of quotes from this guy (Nee), I just want to say "dude, Nee, just......stop......talking". Even this kind of teaching from Nee is just a half-skip away from being used abusively on someone. I have no patience for it anymore. All I hear is an inexperienced know-it-all who has no idea what he's talking about. The guy has no business being an exhibit in the museum of the Bible.

[Paul Vusik]

Maybe I'm losing patience the older I get but more and more whenever I see these kinds of quotes from this guy (Nee), I just want to say "dude, Nee, just......stop......talking". Even this kind of teaching from Nee is just a half-skip away from being used abusively on someone. I have no patience for it anymore. All I hear is an inexperienced know-it-all who has no idea what he's talking about. The guy has no business being an exhibit in the museum of the Bible.

Trapped,
I don’t think that it’s because you are getting older that’s the case, rather it’s because the nonsense that they spewing is getting old!

I’ll just says the following on these “quotes”:

Galatians 2:4-6
King James Version
4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:

5 To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.

6 But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:

I believe people like these who are just a “wolfs in sheeps clothing”, should be treated as such. Giving them or their garbage mindless junk a min of your time and or space as if their ideology is important, breeds nothing but death and confusion to most people.

It’s my opinion on this issue, and it would be way better to promote Godly principles and beliefs in terms of quotes, than give space and time to scam artists. I have no issues with discussion of their teachings as pertains to what they said in a thread, just like everyone else here is entitled to say what they think on the teachings or the scriptures (to whatever extent I guess it’s deemed appropriate by site owner), but not beyond that.

These man add NOTHING, so threat them as such!

[Nell]

...
It’s my opinion on this issue, and it would be way better to promote Godly principles and beliefs in terms of quotes, than give space and time to scam artists. I have no issues with discussion of their teachings as pertains to what they said in a thread, just like everyone else here is entitled to say what they think on the teachings or the scriptures (to whatever extent I guess it’s deemed appropriate by site owner), but not beyond that.

These man add NOTHING, so threat them as such!

Paul,

Thank you for your opinion. However, in case you missed the point of the sidebar quotes by Lee, Nee, et al, one goal of this forum is to expose the fallacies of the "ministry" of Lee and Nee. What better way to do that than to highlight them for all to see, scrutinize and verify the veracity of these quotes?

Or you could say, as in Acts 17: 11 Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. 12 As a result, many of them believed, as did also a number of prominent Greek women and many Greek men.

So. we are admonished to examine the wolves in sheep's clothing. It's even described as being of a "more noble character", resulting in the spread of the gospel. You could say that this is a godly principle... searching the scriptures? Right? Is what Nee said true? Is what Lee said true?

Please note that we do not quote Nee/Lee because they "add something" to the forum. We quote them precisely because they in fact "add nothing" to our Christian walk, but instead detract.

I'm sure there are other websites which have a mission more to your liking, but nevertheless, thanks for your input. i hope this helps to clarify why we do what we do, and how we do it. If you have further critiques, please do not hesitate to ask questions first. You may also care to review the forum Mission Statement.

Nell
Admin

[Ohio]

Thank you for your opinion. However, in case you missed the point of the sidebar quotes by Lee, Nee, et al, one goal of this forum is to expose the fallacies of the "ministry" of Lee and Nee. What better way to do that than to highlight them for all to see, scrutinize and verify the veracity of these quotes?

Great points Nell.

On a related note, I don't think we have ever examined how the teachings of Nee/Lee have changed for the worse following unrepentant sins. No minister is exempt from repenting for sins, and history shows us how far downward a minister can descend after covering up and hiding sins, rather than repenting and taking ownership for them. Many, many Christian ministers start out good, but sadly get lifted up after God blesses their work, feeling they have become about scrutiny, only to sin and have their minions protect them from responsibility. (Ravi Z. was just the latest high profile case.)

E.G. #1: Nee was disciplined by the church in Shanghai for immorality in 1942, but after 6 years Lee had that discipline reversed. Look what happened! Nee came back, not as a humbled servant, but as a demigod, an authoritarian church despot. He demanded all to "hand over," reaping a cash whirlwind. He taught about "deputy authority" erroneously using the types of Noah and Moses so that his elevated status could never again be questioned.

E.G. #2: Lee had long covered up the sexual sins of his son Philip, and then publicly assaulted the whistleblowers (Max Rapoport, John Ingalls et. al.) who simply demanded culpability in order to protect the children of God. Look what happened! Lee then went on to teach more about deputy authority, spiritual judgment, and flip-flopped in order to promote his "high peak" teachings to promote "God became man to make man God." Who then in the system would dare to request accountability from a minister who supposedly had become a God-Man?

[Zezima]

“ I knew of some young men in a certain organization who mixed basketball with the preaching of the gospel. Using basketball for gospel preaching is also leaven. I doubt that very many were saved through this. The whole principle of the Y.M.C.A. is leaven, for the goal of the Y.M.C.A. is to bring the heavenly standard down to the earthly level, to bring the gospel to secular society in a worldly way. So many things in Christianity are leaven. These include Christmas, Easter, idols, pictures, images, rock music, drama, and the entire Y.M.C.A. system.”

Life study of Matthew chapter 38, section 4

[Ohio]

“ I knew of some young men in a certain organization who mixed basketball with the preaching of the gospel. Using basketball for gospel preaching is also leaven. I doubt that very many were saved through this. The whole principle of the Y.M.C.A. is leaven, for the goal of the Y.M.C.A. is to bring the heavenly standard down to the earthly level, to bring the gospel to secular society in a worldly way. So many things in Christianity are leaven. These include Christmas, Easter, idols, pictures, images, rock music, drama, and the entire Y.M.C.A. system.”

Life study of Matthew chapter 38, section 4
Why is preaching the gospel during Christmas or Easter considered "leaven," but preaching the gospel during Chinese New Year not?

Duplicity anyone?

[Trapped]

In the summer of 1948 we had a conference in Shanghai for Brother Nee to resume his ministry. He had been away from his ministry for six years. One evening an older sister, who was bold, eloquent, and very outspoken, offered a prayer in the meeting. She offered a prayer that was very spiritual in wording, but her offering was fully in the flesh. This older sister was Brother Nee’s mother. He told her that her prayer in the meeting was altogether in the flesh, and he asked her not to do this anymore in any meeting.

How can anyone read this kind of stuff in the ministry and be DRAWN TO IT!?!

Hopefully Lee just left out the next part where Nee's mother took him by the ear and told that arrogant, impertinent mouther-offer to go to his room and stay there.

[Nell]

...

How can anyone read this kind of stuff in the ministry and be DRAWN TO IT!?!

Hopefully Lee just left out the next part where Nee's mother took him by the ear and told that arrogant, impertinent mouther-offer to go to his room and stay there.

My thoughts exactly.

Nell

[UntoHim]

Here is a more complete version of this quote. And as usual, when put in it's larger context, it is even more horrific and egregious than the shorter version!

In the summer of 1948, we had a conference in Shanghai for Brother Nee to resume his ministry. He had been away from his ministry for six years. One evening an older sister, who was bold, eloquent, and very outspoken, offered a prayer in the meeting. She offered a prayer which was very spiritual in wording, but her offering was fully in the flesh. This older sister was Brother Nee’s mother. We did not do anything in the meeting. After the meetings, those of us who were caring for the conference would go to another room for refreshments and further fellowship. When we came together after that particular meeting, Brother Nee asked me to write a note to that older sister. I surely knew who that older sister was. I asked him to dictate the letter, and I would write what he wanted to say. He said something very strong. He told her that her prayer in the meeting was altogether in the flesh, and he asked her not to do this anymore in any meeting. He and I and an elderly sister signed this note. We all had the peace that we did the proper thing.

The next evening we were waiting to have dinner together; afterward, we would go to the meeting hall, which was across the street. All of a sudden, we heard someone knocking on the door. The sister who was serving the dinner went to open the door. That older sister, to whom we wrote the note, was at the door. She said to the sister, “To wash people’s feet is love, but the water was too hot! It burns.” Then she went away. This shows that to be a good elder in the church is not easy.
The Intrinsic View of the Body of Christ Chpt 3 (https://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?xid=SWTWXG6ZBLGO7)

If I told my mother that she was "fully in the flesh", a certain part of my flesh would be so sore and red I wouldn't be walking for a few days. :eek:

Seriously, This bold man of God, Watchman Nee, was such a spineless little wimp that he had to send his little yes man flunky, Witness, over with a note tell his mother that he was more spiritual than her? If this is how the One Man with the One Ministry for the Age treats his mother then count me out!
-

[Nell]

"You have many things. You have a great deal of patience and humility. You are a very capable and nice person. You are loving, helpful, and forgiving. You are willing to do this and that. Humanly speaking, it is hard to find a Christian like you. But I must speak an honest word: You only have things. You have to realize that what is truly spiritual before the Lord are not things, but the Lord Jesus Christ. What you are, what you can do, or what you have does not matter; only Christ matters."
Christ is All Spiritual Matters and Things Chp 5 Sec 2 LSM

"...and don't you forget it. "

[UntoHim]

You have many things. You have a great deal of patience and humility. You are a very capable and nice person. You are loving, helpful, and forgiving. You are willing to do this and that. Humanly speaking, it is hard to find a Christian like you. But I must speak an honest word: You only have things. You have to realize that what is truly spiritual before the Lord are not things, but the Lord Jesus Christ. What you are, what you can do, or what you have does not matter; only Christ matters.
Watchman Nee

When the guru tells his followers that only Christ matters, what ends up happening is that only the guru matters. And this is why when one goes to a Local Church meeting in the USA you might find a bunch of American Caucasian brothers and sisters speaking, dressing and acting like an elderly Chinese man (or woman). On more than one occasion, when I brought a friend or relative to a Local Church meeting, they would be scratching their head and wondering why everyone spoke and prayed with the same intonation and accent. Frankly, it creeped most of them out. Of course when they asked me about all the weirdness, I would usually say "Only Christ matters!" or some such nonsense.

This quote of Nee's actually resembles more of a pseudo-pantheism than genuine, biblical, orthodox Christian teaching. To put a finer point on it - If Christ is the only thing that matters, then there is no meaning to our human life. If God only wanted Christ he would of created all the angels and heavenly beings to be exactly like Christ. Adam and Eve would have been exactly like Christ. There would be no need for the Holy Spirit to come and transform us into the likeness of the Son because we would already be the Son.:xx:

Lord Jesus, by your mercy and grace would you empty our hearts and minds of any false teaching. Let us learn from you, for you were gentle and lowly. Let us learn from you, for you came to do the will of your Father, and you did so until your work was finished on the cross. You are our example, our friend, our Lord and the author and finisher of our faith. May we take you as our example - although you were rich, for our sake you became poor. You came to serve and not to be served. Break our heart for what breaks yours. Cleanse and purify our hearts until our hearts are like yours. May we know you and the power of your resurrection.
-

[Paul Vusik]

You have many things. You have a great deal of patience and humility. You are a very capable and nice person. You are loving, helpful, and forgiving. You are willing to do this and that. Humanly speaking, it is hard to find a Christian like you. But I must speak an honest word: You only have things. You have to realize that what is truly spiritual before the Lord are not things, but the Lord Jesus Christ. What you are, what you can do, or what you have does not matter; only Christ matters.
Watchman Nee

It’s only appropriate to compare the above quote, to what actually the Bible would say regarding the matter.

2 Peter 1:2-8
King James Version
2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I’m going to say that this guy has completely missed the mark on this one. His caricature of Jesus doesn’t even exist or real. I know that TLR likes to steal the “divine nature “ out of the whole text, but forgets to read on, and actually see how that divine nature is really expressed today!

[UntoHim]

To say that we trust in the Lord is still somewhat of the Old Testament. ... If you are one spirit with the Lord you don’t need to trust.

"All Scripture is God-breathed"....in fact when the apostle Paul penned this, "all Scripture" was referring to the Old Testament. Witness's derogatory quip "somewhat of the Old Testament" exposes his ignorance and prejudices.

"If you are one spirit with the Lord you don't need trust". Well, I guess that's fine for someone who says he's the only person speaking as God's oracle since 1945. I guess that's fine for someone who was constantly taking financial advantage of his followers. I guess that's fine for someone who had never had to answer to answer to anyone for anything. Just because we are "one spirit" with the Lord does not mean that we are not accountable to God or man.
-

[Paul Vusik]

“To say that we trust in the Lord is still somewhat of the Old Testament. The New Testament is not a matter of trusting but a matter of oneness. If you are one spirit with the Lord you don’t need to trust. When you need to trust, that means you are not one spirit with Him. You are separate from Him; He is He and you are you. So one needs to trust in the other. But when you and He are one, there is no need of trusting.”

This is another typical example of the scam artist, trying to cloud and confuse people as to what some basics are. There is really nothing more here, than trying to keep people in limbo, questioning themselves, questioning God, and living and operating without any sound mind, but to ask the modern day “mad man apostles” to determine whether they are one with the spirit or not. It’s only by their determination and their definition of what that oneness is, you will know if you are one or not. Scam! Run from this! The further the better.
This is a perfect example of a deranged individual, who raised himself up, and lower God to such a level, that they are basically buddies now, taking advice from each other. I guess his god is all that, but it’s not the God of the Bible!

[Ohio]

To say that we trust in the Lord is still somewhat of the Old Testament. ... If you are one spirit with the Lord you don’t need to trust.

-
Does this mean we can no longer sing that song,

“Trust and obey, for there’s no other way?”

[Bible-believer]

“To say that we trust in the Lord is still somewhat of the Old Testament. The New Testament is not a matter of trusting but a matter of oneness. If you are one spirit with the Lord you don’t need to trust. When you need to trust, that means you are not one spirit with Him. You are separate from Him; He is He and you are you. So one needs to trust in the other. But when you and He are one, there is no need of trusting.”

2Tim 4:3
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
Praise the Lord, I trust God, but I don't trust Witness Lee.
The Holy Bible says, "let God be true, but every man a liar." Rom. 3:4

[Paul Vusik]

Does this mean we can no longer sing that song,

“Trust and obey, for there’s no other way?”

Ohio,

Great point!

Just will share couple of verses, and be to the point;

Ephesians 1:13-14
King James Version
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Hebrews 3:14
King James Version
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

[Ohio]

Ohio,

Great point!

I eventually concluded that Anaheim Recovery leaders had convinced themselves that they were so "one with the Spirit" that they no longer needed to obey the Lord, obey the scriptures, love their brothers, etc.

[Zezima]

I can tell you that most of those who believe in evolution do not honor their parents, and those who engage in homosexuality commit fornication to the uttermost. -The Law and Grace of God in His Economy, Chapter 1, Section 5

This is a loaded quote I found comical.
1. Evolution is observable, and isn’t a “belief” as much as gravity is a belief.
2. Genesis isn’t a scientific explanation to creation, viewing it as so makes you make it say what it’s not setting out to say.
3. Homosexuality is just as much of a sin as fornication, or as drunkenness, or stealing. Why does Lee have such a strong word for this specific sin?

[Trapped]

I can tell you that most of those who believe in evolution do not honor their parents, and those who engage in homosexuality commit fornication to the uttermost. -The Law and Grace of God in His Economy, Chapter 1, Section 5

This is a loaded quote I found comical.
1. Evolution is observable, and isn’t a “belief” as much as gravity is a belief.
2. Genesis isn’t a scientific explanation to creation, viewing it as so makes you make it say what it’s not setting out to say.

Even though the co-workers call Witness Lee's unstable teachings "balanced", the reality is too many times Lee made sweeping statements without getting into the finer details of the matter. What's funny to me is that Lee brings in the concept of evolution out of nowhere. He's talking about other stuff, and then he randomly drags evolution into the picture even though it's not relevant to his point, tramples it, and then drops it like he forgot he brought it up.

I've noticed this with Nee and Lee both...they go along talking about the subject, and then randomly bring in total non-sequiturs as if they just saw a commercial on the TV for it, and will throw it in just because and then include it in their swath of the teaching going forward. So much of the ministry is just their running their mouths saying whatever pops into their head.

Not to defend Lee at all on evolution here, but I'm guessing he had in his mind the primordial soup-bacteria-fish-lizard-mammal-monkey-man kind of evolution (i.e. God not required for the origins of life) rather than the observable form of evolution which is often called natural selection (i.e. God is the origin of life and creatures "change" passively over time via winning genetic combinations that give them an edge based on their surrounding environments at the time). I'm no expert here......happy to be better informed by those who are.


3. Homosexuality is just as much of a sin as fornication, or as drunkenness, or stealing. Why does Lee have such a strong word for this specific sin?

Just a shot in the dark here......but of the list of things that you will not inherit the kingdom of God for in 1 Corinthians 6, Lee was guilty of either perpetrating all of them or covering up others who had perpetrated all of them.....except for homosexuality (that we know of). He was guilty of A-F (I think....or maybe most of A-F), so he railed on G. You know - accuse others to take the heat off of himself! He was good at that!

However, this seems to be common in general Christian circles too.....they hyper-focus on practice of homosexuality but do not treat the greedy or drunkards or revilers with the same harshness.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,
10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

[Ohio]

3. Homosexuality is just as much of a sin as fornication, or as drunkenness, or stealing. Why does Lee have such a strong word for this specific sin?

While I Corinthians 6 seems to place “hiring lawyers” as the greatest of all sins, there are other chapters like Genesis 19 which appear to have influenced the opinions of many a Bible teacher, including Lee.

[Zezima]

Not to defend Lee at all on evolution here, but I'm guessing he had in his mind the primordial soup-bacteria-fish-lizard-mammal-monkey-man kind of evolution (i.e. God not required for the origins of life) rather than the observable form of evolution which is often called natural selection (i.e. God is the origin of life and creatures "change" passively over time via winning genetic combinations that give them an edge based on their surrounding environments at the time). I'm no expert here......happy to be better informed by those who are.


Most likely you’re correct, but whatever form or version it’s still a outlandish thing to claim from the pulpit.

[UntoHim]

Homosexuality is just as much of a sin as fornication, or as drunkenness, or stealing. Why does Lee have such a strong word for this specific sin?

Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body. Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.
1 Cor 6:18-20

The thing about sexual sin, be it of the heterosexual or the homosexual variety, is that it damages God's good creation. When God created man and woman, he proclaimed "it is good". Now the main feature of this goodness was that man was created in God's likeness and after his image. Intrinsic to this likeness and image was the sexual identity of the man and the woman. Only when they were paired together did they become "one flesh". And the important thing is that when they were made one flesh they still retained the image and likeness of God. (in fact, one could argue that the image and likeness was enhanced).

Both homosexuality and fornication damage man's ability to be in the image and likeness of God. A man with a man cannot be one flesh in the eyes of God. A woman with a woman cannot be one flesh in the eyes of God. It is hard enough for fallen man and fallen woman to "glorify God in your body", but according to the Word of God, it is impossible with homosexuality. In fact, homosexuality leads to the opposite - According to the apostle Paul it is "the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves" (Romans 1:24), which by extension is dishonoring God.

Lastly, a practicing homosexual is disqualifying himself/herself from the Kingdom of God. But the apostle Paul had some good news too! "And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." As sinners, as long as we are still breathing, we have a choice. We can choose to disqualify ourselves from the Kingdom, or we can fall on our knees in repentance and be washed, and be sanctified and be justified. The damaged image can be returned to the glory of God.
-

[Zezima]

All fall short of the glory of God. You don’t fall less short than others from one sin over another. Paul is articulating why sexual immortality is considered a sin, because in the context of the Roman-Greco culture, it wasn’t. In fact, homosexuality wasn’t even considered an identity like today. Pedophilia was a part of life and normal. The view of sexual morality was totally different then. Nero the ruler of all rome castrated a male slave who was 13 or so, and married him.

When Lee makes a statement like that, it’s easy for his followers to create a tier of sins, resulting in self justification & legality. Oh I’m okay because I didn’t have homosexual relations, I just cuss out my wife. Well, all fall short of the glory.

[Ohio]

When Lee makes a statement like that, it’s easy for his followers to create a tier of sins, resulting in self justification & legality.
You are definitely right that Lee used "self justification and legality" to attack his critics, both from without and within, even developing heretical teachings like "covering the brothers" to protect himself and his family from any accountability.

But both the Law of God and the Law of the land makes a "tier of sins." For example, the 9th commandment does not say "Thou shalt not lie." Yes lying is bad, but bearing false witness against your neighbor is far worse. The 9th Command should be equivalent to perjury in court. Bearing false witness could imprison, or worse, a completely innocent person. Compare that to a much needed "white lie," like telling your wife she's the "most gorgeous girl on earth."

[UntoHim]

While Paul was certainly aware of the secular Greco-Roman culture of his day, it had nothing to do with what Paul considered a sin or not. Paul's morality was based in his Judaism - He was, after all, a "Pharisee of Pharisees". Paul's view of homosexuality was no doubt based upon the biblical account of Sodom and Gomorrah, something that happened centuries before the Greco-Roman empire ever existed.

In any event, my friend Zezima, you missed my point about homosexuality damaging the image of God. This is a separate issue from everyone falling short of the glory of God. Unfortunately, to get into the differences would take us off track and would require starting a whole new thread. Trust me on this.:)

While your point about man's pathetic self-justification (I’m okay because I didn’t have homosexual relaxations, I just cuss out my wife) is well taken, I'm afraid that you're really begging the question rather than addressing the question at hand. Just sayin....
-

[Zezima]

Fair enough, I digress. Apologies for misunderstanding. Without getting into the idea of sins being more significant than others, it is interesting that Lee focuses on one in particular.

[Zezima]

But both the Law of God and the Law of the land makes a "tier of sins." For example, the 9th commandment does not say "Thou shalt not lie." Yes lying is bad, but bearing false witness against your neighbor is far worse. The 9th Command should be equivalent to perjury in court. Bearing false witness could imprison, or worse, a completely innocent person. Compare that to a much needed "white lie," like telling your wife she's the "most gorgeous girl on earth."

The consequences are different, but I’d argue that sin is sin. When you get focus on one, it sends the message that if you do this one then you’re worse than someone doing a different one. But, that maybe just my subjective reception of statements like the one Lee quoted.

[Zezima]

Your attire is also often unseemly. Some brothers dress like bums. When they stand up and speak, dressed like a bum, who will listen? I do not have the time today, but if I were to conduct the training myself, the first thing that I would do would be to change you thoroughly from head to toe. I am not asking you to buy good clothes. Rather, I want you to dress in a dignified, proper, tidy, and elegant way. You have to admit that if those who work in the bank dressed like you, they would be disqualified. You also have to agree that the church is higher than a bank. The work that we are doing today is much more valuable than the work that is done in a bank. However, the way you look today, you would not be hired if you were applying for a job at the bank.
- Vessels Useful to the Lord, Chapter 3, Section 4
- Witness Lee - Vessels Useful to the Lord LSM (https://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?xid=Q3MKJGAYAQ2FN)

[Zezima]

We do not have the slightest doubt about the divine inspiration of the Bible. On the contrary, we have proper understanding concerning the inspiration of the Scriptures. We believe that the entire Bible, every word in the Scripture, is God-breathed. Nevertheless, not every word in the Bible is the word of God. As we have seen, many words recorded in the Scriptures are the words of Satan, evil men, God's opposers, and even the nonsensical talk of godly men.

Life-Study of James, Chapter 14, Section 3 (Witness Lee)

We believe that the entire Bible is the Word of God, and every word of it is inspired.

Collected Works of Watchman Nee, The (Set 1) Vol. 03, The Christian (1), Chapter 2, Section 1 (Watchman Nee)

[Paul Vusik]

Life-Study of James, Chapter 14, Section 3 (Witness Lee)



Collected Works of Watchman Nee, The (Set 1) Vol. 03, The Christian (1), Chapter 2, Section 1 (Watchman Nee)

Both of these man did more babbling and nonsensical talk, opposing God, etc, than anyone I’m aware of. So when it comes to these quotes, it’s just a pure PR spin. They “loved” the Bible, as if we are that naive to believe them.
They love it as much as the current crop of locals, who if you would walk into a meeting hall and propose to throw away the Bible or “the ministry of both men”, I’m very sure which trash can will get filled up first. I tried to say one time to couple of them, “how about we actually open up the Bible on Sunday and preach the Word, and throw away all the rest of the books?” One should have seen the looks I got!

On the other hand, here is a quote that’s more appropriate for today’s times.

“Odd, the way the less the Bible is read the more it is translated”
C. S. Lewis

[Paul Vusik]

“This revelation came from the very God in His oracle. Does this mean that when you hear this speaking, you are listening to a man? This means that you are listening to our dear, beloved God in His oracle. If you have been listening to God in my speaking, you have been blessed. My speaking of these main, new revelations in the past twenty-five years has been the oracle of God.”

I wish I could say it any better that the quotes below stated, but I can’t. So here is what I would say to a man who wrote that quote above:


“Far better for a man that he had never been born than that he should degrade a pulpit into a show box to exhibit himself in.”
―*Charles H. Spurgeon

“Ministers should be stars to give light, not clouds to obscure. In some cases the text is as clear as a mirror, till the preacher’s breath bedims it.”
―*Charles H. Spurgeon

[Zezima]

This revelation came from the very God in His oracle. Does this mean that when you hear this speaking, you are listening to a man? This means that you are listening to our dear, beloved God in His oracle. If you have been listening to God in my speaking, you have been blessed. My speaking of these main, new revelations in the past twenty-five years has been the oracle of God.


Jesus claimed similar things..

[Ohio]

Jesus claimed similar things..

Rightly so. No one else should though.

[Nell]

This revelation came from the very God in His oracle. Does this mean that when you hear this speaking, you are listening to a man? This means that you are listening to our dear, beloved God in His oracle. If you have been listening to God in my speaking, you have been blessed. My speaking of these main, new revelations in the past twenty-five years has been the oracle of God.


I’m going for the Pepto Bismol now.

Nell

[Zezima]

Some Christians may think that it is sufficient to be godly like James. They think it is adequate to know God, to love God, to be a man of prayer and faith, and to be able to endure trials with joy. But we would say that it is not adequate to be such a godly person, for even such a man as James may lack the proper view regarding God’s move in the various dispensations.



Witness Lee, Life-Study of James, Chapter 2, Section 4

[Paul Vusik]

“Some Christians may think that it is sufficient to be godly like James. They think it is adequate to know God, to love God, to be a man of prayer and faith, and to be able to endure trials with joy. But we would say that it is not adequate to be such a godly person, for even such a man as James may lack the proper view regarding God’s move in the various dispensations.”
Witness Lee, Life-Study of James, Chapter 2, Section 4

I’m curious if the LC view in the written statement about the work of MOTA is viewed as a “proper view”, and “adequate” or to be more precise “correct and complete” vs the actual Apostle like James. Any written statements regarding those comparisons? Or even specifically in relation to WL.

[Ohio]

I’m curious if the LC view in the written statement about the work of MOTA is viewed as a “proper view”, and “adequate” or to be more precise “correct and complete” vs the actual Apostle like James. Any written statements regarding those comparisons? Or even specifically in relation to WL.

Both the Brethren and the Recovery views of MOTA (probably built upon the Protestant) of the Apostleship of James are pejorative. James, the brother of the Lord, and not one of the Twelve, is even viewed by some as a fraud. The MOTA view of an Apostle is almost singularly based on Paul, with the later addition of John.

For James, you could look at the Life Study of James.

[Paul Vusik]

The MOTA view of an Apostle is almost singularly based on Paul, with the later addition of John.

For James, you could look at the Life Study of James.

I guess I can’t find anything that has any base on Paul or John yet, so I’ll just keep looking.:rolleyes2:

[Zezima]

Both the Brethren and the Recovery views of MOTA (probably built upon the Protestant) of the Apostleship of James are pejorative. James, the brother of the Lord, and not one of the Twelve, is even viewed by some as a fraud. The MOTA view of an Apostle is almost singularly based on Paul, with the later addition of John.

For James, you could look at the Life Study of James.

In the eyes of the Lord’s Recovery, the book of James teaches an incorrect teaching & James missed the “vision of God’s Economy”. The idea that your faith bears fruit (works) doesn’t fit their interpretation. Also, because James starts his letter by saying “the 12 tribes in dispensation” Witness Lee uses that to show that James didn’t see the gentiles were also apart of the church.

This view totally ignores that James was written before Acts 15 which is the Jerusalem Council. An event that the church leaders gathered together for to determine how Jews and gentiles should integrate into the Church.

It’s another classic case of Lee approaching the text with his presuppositions, and casting his interpretation onto the text. Making it say things it’s not saying.

[Paul Vusik]

In the eyes of the Lord’s Recovery, the book of James teaches an incorrect teaching & James missed the “vision of God’s Economy”. The idea that your faith bears fruit (works) doesn’t fit their interpretation. Also, because James starts his letter by saying “the 12 tribes in dispensation” Witness Lee uses that to show that James didn’t see the gentiles were also apart of the church.

This view totally ignores that James was written before Acts 15 which is the Jerusalem Council. An event that the church leaders gathered together for to determine how Jews and gentiles should integrate into the Church.

It’s another classic case of Lee approaching the text with his presuppositions, and casting his interpretation onto the text. Making it say things it’s not saying.

I think that LSM and their minions, whenever they do the next edition of their RV bible (which they will be doing, since you know that the truth is still being recovered as I write this), should just due away with everything prior to Acts 15, + the book of James, Hebrews, and for that matter all of the Old Testament since it was all written to non gentile people, and just replace it with quotes of MOTA and his predecessor, since you know they got “full revelation” unlike all those man. Let’s call it “The Fables of Lee”, and “The Confusions of Nee”. That would be a complete New Testament, unlike what we have today, which is totally absent of the “leading of the spirit of recovery”.

[Ohio]

I think that LSM and their minions, whenever they do the next edition of their RV bible (which they will be doing, since you know that the truth is still being recovered as I write this), should just due away with everything prior to Acts 15, + the book of James, Hebrews, and for that matter all of the Old Testament since it was all written to non gentile people, and just replace it with quotes of MOTA and his predecessor, since you know they got “full revelation” unlike all those man. Let’s call it “The Fables of Lee”, and “The Confusions of Nee”. That would be a complete New Testament, unlike what we have today, which is totally absent of the “leading of the spirit of recovery”.
Hah! There was a time, IIRC during the Ephesians training, when I actually had the thought that WL’s writings should actually supersede the New Testament. Pretty crazy, eh?

[Paul Vusik]

Hah! There was a time, IIRC during the Ephesians training, when I actually had the thought that WL’s writings should actually supersede the New Testament. Pretty crazy, eh?

Ohio,

I don’t read much news or watch news anymore for a while, so I saw an email this morning in my inbox that we have a new “Ministry of Truth” established, which will fight to bring truth and override the false or incomplete narrative. So if it can be done in real world, why shouldn’t RV follow suit? Can you imagine how many more conference centers would be purchased by LSM? Sounds like a win win situation.

I hope that new establishment be a bit more transparent about their sources, and not claim that they also have a special Oracle to determine what that truth is.

[Ohio]

Ohio,

I don’t read much news or watch news anymore for a while, so I saw an email this morning in my inbox that we have a new “Ministry of Truth” established, which will fight to bring truth and override the false or incomplete narrative. So if it can be done in real world, why shouldn’t RV follow suit? Can you imagine how many more conference centers would be purchased by LSM? Sounds like a win win situation.

I hope that new establishment be a bit more transparent about their sources, and not claim that they also have a special Oracle to determine what that truth is.

Fascist and Marxist regimes always have a “Ministry of Truth,” which is really just propaganda to deceive their people. The current administration is doing the same. Kind of scary. Apart from the Scripture and the Spirit within, no one should decide for us what is true and what is truth.

On a reduced scale LSM also operates as the “Ministry of Truth” for their people. This forum was designed primarily to combat LSM’s misleading propaganda and help the reader to know the truth. I have found that interactive public correspondence on a forum such as this is the best way to render personal assistance to those caught in this system of error wishing to break thru the fog of deception.

[Paul Vusik]

Fascist and Marxist regimes always have a “Ministry of Truth,” which is really just propaganda to deceive their people. The current administration is doing the same. Kind of scary. Apart from the Scripture and the Spirit within, no one should decide for us what is true and what is truth.

On a reduced scale LSM also operates as the “Ministry of Truth” for their people. This forum was designed primarily to combat LSM’s misleading propaganda and help the reader to know the truth. I have found that interactive public correspondence on a forum such as this is the best way to render personal assistance to those caught in this system of error wishing to break thru the fog of deception.

Yes sir, been there, done that. I hope you understood that it was all sarcasm regarding “Ministry of Truth”. Lol. I seen this movie before.

If we can’t get the truth from man who claim they are “in Christ” or “into Christ”, “the Oracle”, “the only voice speaking for God”, etc, good luck with the satanic minions and demons that currently run this country. I guess there might not be much difference except the “mask” one puts on Sundays.

People in this country are spoiled to no end, thinking that there is no cost to pay for all this privilege that you get to speak freely. When it’s over, it will be like former Soviet Union, where if you say something, your neighbor will give you up, and be proud to do so.

I had some family visiting over from Germany couple weeks ago, and they brought the autobiography of my great grandpa, who lived from 1900-1978. When through WW1 and WW2, Lenin, Stalin, and 25 years in prison for Christ. And while Stalin killed 1.5 million Baptist in USSR, while sending them to Siberia and Kazakhstan to leave them in the open wilderness to die in the middle of the winter at -40C.(no food and no water, no shelter) Nothing. There are some stories that make you think twice about meaning of being a Christian, and not bending over for some things of comfort or even a simple as a daily meal.

I know that I would be considered narrow minded and probably fundamentalist of sorts on this type of forum, but I really do appreciate the ability to share things here. When I came to USA in 1997, not knowing a word of English, and could not even say a simplest of things. I remember my high school teacher who was teaching me, said one time; One of the best things about this country, is that you and I can have a conversation about a subject or issue, especially since you are Christians, we can disagree on it, and shake our hands and see each other tomorrow in the morning and still say “Good morning”. Well, those days are far gone, and it’s not only reflected in a real world out there, but in every walk of life. There are obvious issues that should be fought for at all costs, but the current way of playing victims by all means necessary, is just a sad state of humanity that think of itself that they have “progressed”. Normal human discussion is healthy and necessary, that’s how the truth is found and proclaimed. LC is the perfect example of victimhood and zero discussion. Sorry for the rant.

[Ohio]

Yes sir, been there, done that. I hope you understood that it was all sarcasm regarding “Ministry of Truth”. Lol. I seen this movie before.

If we can’t get the truth from man who claim they are “in Christ” or “into Christ”, “the Oracle”, “the only voice speaking for God”, etc, good luck with the satanic minions and demons that currently run this country. I guess there might not be much difference except the “mask” one puts on Sundays.

People in this country are spoiled to no end, thinking that there is no cost to pay for all this privilege that you get to speak freely. When it’s over, it will be like former Soviet Union, where if you say something, your neighbor will give you up, and be proud to do so.

I had some family visiting over from Germany couple weeks ago, and they brought the autobiography of my great grandpa, who lived from 1900-1978. When through WW1 and WW2, Lenin, Stalin, and 25 years in prison for Christ. And while Stalin killed 1.5 million Baptist in USSR, while sending them to Siberia and Kazakhstan to leave them in the open wilderness to die in the middle of the winter at -40C.(no food and no water, no shelter) Nothing. There are some stories that make you think twice about meaning of being a Christian, and not bending over for some things of comfort or even a simple as a daily meal.

I know that I would be considered narrow minded and probably fundamentalist of sorts on this type of forum, but I really do appreciate the ability to share things here. When I came to USA in 1997, not knowing a word of English, and could not even say a simplest of things. I remember my high school teacher who was teaching me, said one time; One of the best things about this country, is that you and I can have a conversation about a subject or issue, especially since you are Christians, we can disagree on it, and shake our hands and see each other tomorrow in the morning and still say “Good morning”. Well, those days are far gone, and it’s not only reflected in a real world out there, but in every walk of life. There are obvious issues that should be fought for at all costs, but the current way of playing victims by all means necessary, is just a sad state of humanity that think of itself that they have “progressed”. Normal human discussion is healthy and necessary, that’s how the truth is found and proclaimed. LC is the perfect example of victimhood and zero discussion. Sorry for the rant.

Thanks for the “rant,” and for sharing your testimony, and for clarifying your use of “sarcasm.” You have experience and perspective sorely sorely needed today.

I too grew very frustrated just trying to get basic honesty from LSM leaders. Even Christian leaders can fall into endless unrighteousness once they sacrifice their integrity for some base gain. When I first met LC brothers and sisters almost 50 years ago, they were solely for Christ, only Christ. They shined with the light of God. Like the USA, they have morphed into something almost unrecognizable. Church history for two millennia shows us there have been too many “Stalins” in the church.

“Our Father, Who art in Heaven, hallowed be Thy name;
Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven.”

[Paul Vusik]

Thanks for the “rant,” and for sharing your testimony, and for clarifying your use of “sarcasm.” You have experience and perspective sorely sorely needed today.

I too grew very frustrated just trying to get basic honesty from LSM leaders. Even Christian leaders can fall into endless unrighteousness once they sacrifice their integrity for some base gain. When I first met LC brothers and sisters almost 50 years ago, they were solely for Christ, only Christ. They shined with the light of God. Like the USA, they have morphed into something almost unrecognizable. Church history for two millennia shows us there have been too many “Stalins” in the church.

“Our Father, Who art in Heaven, hallowed be Thy name;
Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven.”

Wait for a bit and you might find that they will put out a newspaper or some kind of publication to disseminate their idea of truth. In the USSR they not only had Ministry of Truth, but also a daily newspaper that was called “Truth”, to which people were told to believe like it was a Bible. You question the narrative, you are going to be put in re-education camp, or quarantined from society. Even as a simple of things as saying I believe in God and pray to God, during 1930s-1940s would get you landed in one of those camps. The whole USSR was built by those prisoners, as a free labor force, in exchange for some daily bread to live.

[UntoHim]

Some Christians may think that it is sufficient to be godly like James. They think it is adequate to know God, to love God, to be a man of prayer and faith, and to be able to endure trials with joy. But we would say that it is not adequate to be such a godly person, for even such a man as James may lack the proper view regarding God’s move in the various dispensations.
Witness Lee, Life-Study of James, Chapter 2, Section 4

This thread is wondering off track. Any further posts should address this post, or maybe one of the other posts which include a quote from Nee or Lee.
-

[Paul Vusik]

This thread is wondering off track. Any further posts should address this post, or maybe one of the other posts which include a quote from Nee or Lee.
-

Got it, it’s my fault. Will do.

[UntoHim]

Here's another doozy from the same chapter in the same book Vessels Useful to the Lord:
"During the lawsuit over the book The Mindbenders, the opposing party questioned me five mornings a week for three weeks. They had prepared to question me concerning one hundred and nineteen items, but eventually they could question me concerning only nine of them. That was truly the best defense of the truth."

What Witness (and LSM editors) conveniently left out was where Witness was also asked "Do you consider yourself an apostle, and have you ever taught others to consider yourself as an apostle" (close paraphrase) Lee then criminally perjured himself and claimed "No I do not consider myself an apostle, and I never taught others to consider myself as an apostle. Any time others have proclaimed that I am an apostle, I asked them not to do this!" (close paraphrase)

Not many years later, during the "turmoil" of the late 1980s, Gene Gruhler, Francis Ball and others wrote a tract proclaiming the Witness Lee was "an apostle of the first kind" - just as the apostle Paul was an apostle of the first kind. While some claimed to be shocked and taken aback by such a claim, the simple truth is that Witness Lee was considered an apostle of the Local Church for many decades before. Lee was hiring and firing elders and co-workers for many decades before. Lee was in full control of the finances and direction of the Local Church movement for many decades before.

"The day after they questioned me about this matter, all of the main responsible ones among them examined the questions and answers given during the depositions. Soon after this they accepted the settlement agreement, and we won a complete victory."

This is another abject distortion. The fact is that the authors of The Mindbenders simply ran out of funds to pay their lawyers and were forced into bankruptcy. Lee and LSM had the deep pockets of the saint's hard earned money and were able to outspend the other side.
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************************************************** ************************************************** **********
https://i.imgur.com/dfkQ5nW.jpg?1 - - - - - - https://i.imgur.com/KUQwYJl.jpg?2
From Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_Church_controversies
Seeking relief from libel
In 1980, after all attempts to communicate with the authors and publishers were rebuffed, groups of local churches and individual church members filed libel actions concerning The Mindbenders in four jurisdictions—Anaheim, Dallas, Atlanta, and Cleveland. The lawsuits named Nelson, Sparks, Braun, Dick Ballew (an EOC bishop and close associate of Braun), and Gillquist as defendants. The discovery process was subsequently consolidated to expedite the cases. A separate libel action was filed by the Church in Anaheim, Witness Lee, and William T. Freeman against Neil Duddy, the principal author of The God-Men; Spiritual Counterfeits Project; and Schwengeler-Verlag, publisher of a German translation of the same Duddy manuscript which was the basis for the second edition of The God-Men. Although the local churches strongly protested that both The Mindbenders and The God-Men misrepresented their teachings, the issues raised in the lawsuits were not theological but were based on the books’ false and defamatory accusations of sociological deviance.[51]

Discovery in The Mindbenders case revealed that Gillquist had used his position within Nelson to push for publication of the book over objections from internal staff and outside reviewers of the pre-publication proofs.[52][53][54] After two years of discovery, the case was settled out of court. All defendants signed an agreement that stipulated financial recompense for damages and that Nelson issue a retraction[55] to be published in major newspapers and Christian periodicals nationwide.[56]

Early in The God-Men case Neil Duddy and SCP had a rancorous split stemming from Duddy's claims of SCP's financial mismanagement.[57] Duddy moved to Denmark to avoid entanglement in The God-Men proceedings.[58] Depositions showed that Duddy failed to document his accusations against the local churches with credible evidence and that SCP, despite having misgivings about Duddy's research, had not fact-checked his work or sought independent verification.[59]

On the day the court was to schedule the trial, SCP's attorneys, in anticipation of a judgment against SCP, announced that their client had filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy.[60] Neither Duddy nor representatives of Schwengeler-Verlag made an appearance. The court granted the plaintiffs’ petition for permission to present their evidence despite the SCP bankruptcy and the other defendants’ default. The local churches retained six experts to testify on their behalf.[61] During the proceedings Judge Leon Seyranian questioned the witnesses and experts in the absence of defense counsel. At the end of those proceedings, he stated that he was satisfied that the evidence presented was sufficient to decide the case without cross examination.

The court awarded damages in the amount of $11.9 million, which at the time was the largest final libel award in American history.[64] Only a small fraction of the judgment was ever paid. SCP later claimed that the only reason they lost the litigation was that a protracted discovery process had drained their financial resources.[65] However, a recent publication has challenged the veracity of this claim using SCP's own financial reports.[66]
-

[Zezima]

Regardless of whether you have been saved many years or you have only recently been saved, most of you probably do not know that the truths in the Lord's recovery are the cream of all the truths in the Bible.


Bad news if you’re lactose intolerant.

[Paul Vusik]

I just got this book “The God-man” by Neil. T. Duddy. There is a quote that I’m sure was already posted here somewhere, but I figured for our refreshing, and just to stick it to the LSM/LC, I’ll post it here again as a reminder that there are few of us who made it out. Yes, we didn’t go out and have a following as he did, by deceiving people, but I rather be solo, than deceive even a single person. So here it is:

Witness Lee said:
“ in my entire Christian life I have never seen one Christian who, when he criticized and opposed the local churches, was ever blessed by the Lord from that time forth. I have observed that all those who have opposed the church life have become backsliders. There has not been one exception. Let them all be put to shame and turn backward. It is not a small thing.... If you hate the local churches, you will have no more growth in life. There will be no rich reaping and no rich harvest”

[Ohio]

I just got this book “The God-man” by Neil. T. Duddy. There is a quote that I’m sure was already posted here somewhere, but I figured for our refreshing, and just to stick it to the LSM/LC, I’ll post it here again as a reminder that there are few of us who made it out. Yes, we didn’t go out and have a following as he did, by deceiving people, but I rather be solo, than deceive even a single person. So here it is:

Witness Lee said:
“ in my entire Christian life I have never seen one Christian who, when he criticized and opposed the local churches, was ever blessed by the Lord from that time forth. I have observed that all those who have opposed the church life have become backsliders. There has not been one exception. Let them all be put to shame and turn backward. It is not a small thing.... If you hate the local churches, you will have no more growth in life. There will be no rich reaping and no rich harvest”


And where is the blessing, the growth in life, the rich reaping, and the rich harvest in the LC’s?

Everyone who opposed WL and the LC has died. Same with all those who supported them.

On the other hand, we all should be careful what we say, as our words do matter.

[Zezima]

Over sixty young brothers and sisters received help from Miss Barber. Being deep in the Lord and exceedingly strict, she frequently rebuked the young people concerning many things. After a short time most of these young people stopped going to her. The only one who continued to see her was Watchman Nee. When he visited her, she rebuked and reproved him. Frequently she pointed out that as a young man he could not serve the Lord in this way or that way. However, the more she rebuked him, the more he returned to be rebuked. By deliberately putting himself before her to be rebuked, he received untold help.


So Watchman Nee enjoyed being rebuked by a female, this sounds more like a sexual fetish than any spiritual type of learning. What a strange thing to say in printed text about Nee

[Ohio]

Over sixty young brothers and sisters received help from Miss Barber. Being deep in the Lord and exceedingly strict, she frequently rebuked the young people concerning many things. After a short time most of these young people stopped going to her. The only one who continued to see her was Watchman Nee. When he visited her, she rebuked and reproved him. Frequently she pointed out that as a young man he could not serve the Lord in this way or that way. However, the more she rebuked him, the more he returned to be rebuked. By deliberately putting himself before her to be rebuked, he received untold help.
Have any of Nee’s contemporaries ever confirmed these stories, or are they merely old-womanish tales of hagiography by Lee?

[Paul Vusik]

Over sixty young brothers and sisters received help from Miss Barber. Being deep in the Lord and exceedingly strict, she frequently rebuked the young people concerning many things. After a short time most of these young people stopped going to her. The only one who continued to see her was Watchman Nee. When he visited her, she rebuked and reproved him. Frequently she pointed out that as a young man he could not serve the Lord in this way or that way. However, the more she rebuked him, the more he returned to be rebuked. By deliberately putting himself before her to be rebuked, he received untold help.


I’m so glad that the other 60 people had some common sense and maybe some spiritual discernment to realize what’s happening there. I can’t imagine having to deal with 60 “oracles”, speaking for God at the same time.


Have any of Nee’s contemporaries ever confirmed these stories, or are they merely old-womanish tales of hagiography by Lee?

Remember, if MOTA says so, it must be truth. No need for verification or confirmation from anyone. He was one with god, and God cannot lie, so how could he say something that’s not truth?

[Zezima]

Who was miss barber and what was her role with Nee / Lee?

[gr8ful]

Who was miss barber and what was her role with Nee / Lee?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_E._Barber

[Ohio]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_E._Barber

Nearly all the source material for this Wiki page are from Recovery people, who are known to canonize their own with sanitized and sensationalized accounts.

Supposedly, based on numerous public statements by WL, Barber is the source of the long-standing recovery practice of “perfecting the brothers” by harshly rebuking and publicly shaming them.

Don Rutledge once told the story of the time he asked Titus Chu for a single scriptural reference to support this accepted practice. None could be provided, even though Titus Chu was well known in the Recovery for this practice.

[Paul Vusik]

“My burden is to show you clearly that God's economy and plan is to make Himself man and to make us, His created beings, “God” so that He is “man-ized” and we are “God-ized.” In the end He and we, we and He, all become God-men. Hence, it is not enough for us to be good men, spiritual men, or holy men. These are not what God is after. What God wants today is God-men. God does not expect us to improve ourselves, because God is not after our being good men. He wants us to be God-men. He is our life and everything to us for the purpose that we would express Him and live Him out.”

Witness Lee

A Deeper Study of the Divine Dispensing, Chapter 3, Section 4



I can only imagine, standing before the Lord one day, and seeing a bunch of very disappointed god-wannabes, not only because they didn’t become gods, but because they completely missed the point on why God became a man.

[Zezima]

Do not accept the teaching which says that if you fail after being saved you will be lost again and perish. This is not true. At the other extreme is the teaching which says that after you have been saved you can have no problems with the Lord. However, a person who has been eternally saved may still need to be dealt with by Him. This is the full gospel. The full gospel is the whole New Testament, not just John 3:16. Here in Revelation 2:11 is a portion of the full gospel which says that we must overcome all persecution. If you do not overcome, you will not receive the crown of life; instead, you will be hurt by the second death. If you do overcome persecution and tribulation by the resurrection life within you, you will receive the crown of life positively and you will not be touched by the second death negatively. This is the Lord’s clear promise with His clear word, and we all must take it. Whether we understand it or not, we all must accept the word of the Lord. If you believe John 3:16, then you must believe Revelation 2:11. Both are the Lord’s word. I say again that this is the full gospe

There are 13 you’s in this quote, and 5 mentions of the Lord..

[Unregistered]

Stumbled on your website, and with reading all this, it can be doom and gloom. But as a daily reminder for myself, that “A good laugh is good for the soul.”, what a perfect day to hear some me vs every one else quotes from the minister. I don’t even need to go to a comedy club sometimes, I just look back 15-20 years and read things like these. BTW LSM, thanks for organizing your new website so well, makes it so much easier to find things.


CWWL, 1984, vol. 5, "The Faithful and Diligent Spreading of the Truth—concerning the Publication Service," ch. 8: Being Equipped and Other Matters Related to the Publication Work.

p. 265: The Relationship between Grammar and the Truth; Americans can read the Bible aloud, but most do not understand what they read.
p. 265: However, in regard to grammar, most Americans cannot compare with me. Grammar is very important because it is related to the truth.
p. 266: Most Americans with a master's degree or a Ph.D. in other fields are not up to the standard in grammar, in spite of the fact that the American educational system is quite good.
p. 274: In other words, accuracy is more important than time. Many Americans feel that I have a hard-working character because I was almost sixty years old when I went to the United States twenty years ago, but I am still working.
p. 274: The young Americans who try to keep up with me have fallen by the wayside. Of course, I must testify that if I push myself too hard, I will eventually get sick.


Happy Wednesday!
Cheers

[Nell]

Often Satan injects pride into the believer's spirit, evoking in him an attitude of self-importance and of self-conceit. He causes him to esteem himself a very outstanding person, one who is indispensable in God's work. Such a spirit constitutes one of the major reasons for the fall of believers. --Nee
Might this be a self-confession? It certainly fits what seems to have happened to WLee.

Nell

[Zezima]

We should be burning for the Lord and hot; However, our hotness should not be natural but spiritual. We progress from being natural to being spiritual by taking the way of the cross. Whatever we are in the natural life should be crossed out. We need to realize that our natural man has been judged by God on the cross, and for this reason it should not be regarded or honored.

Serious question, How can you naturally be hot for the Lord?

[Nell]

Serious question, How can you naturally be hot for the Lord?

Another question: How can you “be” something you are not?

[Trapped]

Serious question, How can you naturally be hot for the Lord?

The only thing I can think of that is remotely scriptural would be something like where Jesus tells the Jews that they are zealous for God, but their zeal for God is misplaced, or is lacking.

But the Jews rejected Christ. I don't know what it looks like for a real Christian to be "naturally hot" for the Lord.

Trapped

[Ohio]

Another question: How can you “be” something you are not?

I would suggest instead that you DO what you don’t normally do, such as open the Bible, speak something of Jesus to those you meet, pray for these ones, try to help them somehow.

[UntoHim]

"If you believe John 3:16, then you must believe Revelation 2:11. Both are the Lord’s word. I say again that this is the full gospel." - Witness Lee

Yes Witness, I must believe Revelation 2:11. What I DON'T have to believe is YOUR PRIVATE INTERPRETATION of Revelation 2:11. Furthermore, your version of "the full gospel" has been found to be unbiblical and heretical. The "gospel" that is preached and taught in your Local Church movement is a false gospel, and has caused your followers to become divisive, sectarian, presumptuous and arrogant. The real, genuine Gospel produces a people who are humble, gracious, forgiving and temperate. May God have mercy.
-

[Zezima]

"If you believe John 3:16, then you must believe Revelation 2:11. Both are the Lord’s word. I say again that this is the full gospel." - Witness Lee

Revelation 2:11 is addressed to the Church in Smyrna, not to Christian’s 2,000+ years later. Talk about making the text fit your own agenda, classic Witness Lee.

[Trapped]

The full gospel is the whole New Testament, not just John 3:16. Here in Revelation 2:11 is a portion of the full gospel which says that we must overcome all persecution. If you do not overcome, you will not receive the crown of life; instead, you will be hurt by the second death. If you believe John 3:16, then you must believe Revelation 2:11. Both are the Lord’s word. I say again that this is the full gospel.

Am I mistaken that "the second death" is what happens to those who reject Christ? And are the letters to the churches in Revelation the basis for Lee's "overcomers" teaching?

If so.....it almost sounds as if Witness Lee is saying that Christians who are not what he calls "overcomers".......will suffer the second death, i.e. not actually be saved?! This is a new one!

(I'm not referring to what the Bible says; I'm referring to the teaching in the local church. This is a new version of the teaching, if I am understanding it right! I never had the understanding when in the LC that non-overcomers were essentially as good as not even saved....but it's pretty easy to get that impression from this excerpt here!)

Trapped


P.S. I guess I just don't understand people who make stuff up in order to produce more merchandise for followers to pay for. There is MORE than enough stuff in the Bible for anyone who devotes their life to it to produce TRUE material without needing to create fake stuff. I don't understand the mindset of Lee seeming to flap his lips and just deciding to go with whatever mess of words happens to come out that day. He knew the Bible well, even if he wrongly taught a lot of it. Why not just teach the true stuff? Plenty of devoted Christians are happy to buy true stuff.

[Ohio]

"If you believe John 3:16, then you must believe Revelation 2:11. Both are the Lord’s word. I say again that this is the full gospel." - Witness Lee

Yes Witness, I must believe Revelation 2:11. What I DON'T have to believe is YOUR PRIVATE INTERPRETATION of Revelation 2:11. Furthermore, your version of "the full gospel" has been found to be unbiblical and heretical. The "gospel" that is preached and taught in your Local Church movement is a false gospel, and has caused your followers to become divisive, sectarian, presumptuous and arrogant. The real, genuine Gospel produces a people who are humble, gracious, forgiving and temperate. May God have mercy.
-
I thought that the “Full Gospel” was speaking in Tongues, or so I have been told.

[Bible-believer]

P.S. I don't understand the mindset of Lee seeming to flap his lips and just deciding to go with whatever mess of words happens to come out that day. He knew the Bible well, even if he wrongly taught a lot of it. Why not just teach the true stuff? Plenty of devoted Christians are happy to buy true stuff.

I don't know whether Lee knew the Bible well.
However, he did wrongly teach and divide the word of truth, and the possible reasons could be (but are not limited to):
1. He didn't know the Bible well enough so he could rightly divide the word of truth.
2. He knew the Bible enough yet taught it wrongly purposely. If it is so, he got himself into big trouble like Balaam.
3. He realized he made mistakes that he was unable to recover. So he decided to cover all his false teaching with lots of "brain-washing" training.

[Trapped]

I don't know whether Lee knew the Bible well.
However, he did wrongly teach and divide the word of truth, and the possible reasons could be (but are not limited to):
1. He didn't know the Bible well enough so he could rightly divide the word of truth.
2. He knew the Bible enough yet taught it wrongly purposely. If it is so, he got himself into big trouble like Balaam.
3. He realized he made mistakes that he was unable to recover. So he decided to cover all his false teaching with lots of "brain-washing" training.

When I say "Lee knew the Bible well", I mean it in the sense like, say......for example, Ed Marks could stand on stage and quote verse after verse from memory, or you say a verse and he knows exactly what reference it is, etc. It's not like these people have freshly picked up a Bible. That's what I mean. All of them have been swimming in it for literally decades.

It's just that now everything the co-workers teach is through the Lee filter. It's like they know the verses, but they don't know the Bible...hahaha... And frankly, you have to make a big effort to be as wrong as Lee was, so....I personally think the answer is #2 on your list!

Trapped

[Ohio]

I don't know whether Lee knew the Bible well.
However, he did wrongly teach and divide the word of truth, and the possible reasons could be (but are not limited to):
1. He didn't know the Bible well enough so he could rightly divide the word of truth.
2. He knew the Bible enough yet taught it wrongly purposely. If it is so, he got himself into big trouble like Balaam.
3. He realized he made mistakes that he was unable to recover. So he decided to cover all his false teaching with lots of "brain-washing" training.
Pride precedes the fall. The deep-seated arrogance passed on from Née clouded all the good. Lee elevated himself to be the “judge of all things Christian.” Even Billy Graham was deficient, not “seeing the church.”

Such was the legacy of the proud. We saw it with the Pharisees, the Popes, the Exclusives, etc. They always used their Bible knowledge to create false standards by which they could condemn all others. If they were successful at killing our Savior, think of what an easy job they had with us.

[Raptor]

..for example, Ed Marks could stand on stage and quote verse after verse from memory, or you say a verse and he knows exactly what reference it is, etc.
I´m pretty sure I heard EM recite entire footnotes from memory while giving a message. For example, if he would be talking about "fellowship," he would say fellowship is "xyz skdkd kskdkkd" and it was an entire word by word footnote by memory.

[UntoHim]

We think of the Christian life as a "changed life"
but it is not that. What God offers us is an "exchanged life", a "substituted life",
and Christ is our Substitute within.
Watchman Nee
-

[Ohio]

We think of the Christian life as a "changed life"
but it is not that. What God offers us is an "exchanged life", a "substituted life",
and Christ is our Substitute within.
Watchman Nee
-
I heard these idiotic messages way too many times in the LC from WL.

Never did a thing for me or others. Made no sense. Just extra-biblical chatter from those trying to impress us that they knew something that we didn’t by just reading the Bible.

[Just saying]

We think of the Christian life as a "changed life"
but it is not that. What God offers us is an "exchanged life", a "substituted life",
and Christ is our Substitute within.
Watchman Nee
-



If anyone with any kind of common sense, let alone the Holy Spirit within them, reads this quote and doesn’t see the true definition of dual personality disorder in that, then one should substitute the “changed life” for the “exchanged life” and see how long you will go before you start going from total “Jubilee” after perfectly coordinated “spiritual session”, to “I must annihilate myself after listening/reading that WL or WN message”.

[Trapped]

If anyone with any kind of common sense, let alone the Holy Spirit within them, reads this quote and doesn’t see the true definition of dual personality disorder in that, then one should substitute the “changed life” for the “exchanged life” and see how long you will go before you start going from total “Jubilee” after perfectly coordinated “spiritual session”, to “I must annihilate myself after listening/reading that WL or WN message”.

Right, it's like this kind of thing implies that we no longer exist or something. But it makes no logical sense whatsoever that God created each of us individually, created a genetic system so that no two people would ever be the same, formed us in our mother's womb, and then.....wants to eradicate us!

[Zezima]

Absolute loyalty to the Truth is a matter that must have priority in the life of every Christian. It is possible, and indeed it not infrequently happens, that a (Christian) modifies the Truth because he is influenced by men, or by circumstances, or by his own desires. The truth is absolute, and it demands undeviating loyalty of all men under all circumstances. All we possess we can sacrifice if need be, but the Truth we dare not sacrifice. We must never seek to bend it to our purpose, but must always bow to it.

This is a great quote, regardless of how far from it the author was

[Zezima]

Most cases of mental illness have their source in problems that exist in the heart. More than forty years ago, the superintendent of a large mental hospital told me that, according to his experience and observation, mental problems are caused by problems related to greed for money and sex. These are problems of the heart. Greed for money causes problems in the hearts of some, whereas lust causes problems in the hearts of others. Such problems cause the mind to come under attack. Through years of experience, we have learned that mental illness can be traced to problems in the heart. The mind is attacked because the heart is wrong. Perhaps someone has a certain ambition or desire in his heart. If this ambition or desire is not fulfilled and is not dealt with, the mind may be attacked. - LIFE-STUDY OF COLOSSIANS, MESSAGE SEVENTEEN

[Trapped]

Most cases of mental illness have their source in problems that exist in the heart. More than forty years ago, the superintendent of a large mental hospital told me that, according to his experience and observation, mental problems are caused by problems related to greed for money and sex. These are problems of the heart. Greed for money causes problems in the hearts of some, whereas lust causes problems in the hearts of others. Such problems cause the mind to come under attack. Through years of experience, we have learned that mental illness can be traced to problems in the heart. The mind is attacked because the heart is wrong. Perhaps someone has a certain ambition or desire in his heart. If this ambition or desire is not fulfilled and is not dealt with, the mind may be attacked.
- LIFE-STUDY OF COLOSSIANS, MESSAGE SEVENTEEN

Almost nothing could convince me more that Witness Lee absolutely had no idea what he was talking about. It is beyond my comprehension that anyone would consider this joker some kind of wise guru or man of God. What a waste of my childhood.

Maybe a WL apologist/coworker would argue that "he said this a while ago, this was the prevailing thought at the time". My response would be - then publish retractions or updates where you acknowledge his prior teachings were wrong and extremely damaging, repent for the hurt it caused people, and admit you have no expertise on the matter, and point people to actual experts rather than telling them to keep reading Witness Lee only.

What I wouldn't give to be able to go back in time and stand up in a conference where Witness Lee was speaking and oppose his lies to his face.

Workers at DCP who read this forum - you have no excuse before God if you continue to defend and propagate this type of sewage. And if you think that what Lee taught in this excerpt is true, then you also have no clue what you are talking about either.

Trapped

[I tell the truth]

If you're on the matter of mentally issue check the link out below. WL was saying most young women are sick either mentally or emotionally

https://www.facebook.com/132802520234921/posts/pfbid02xjDAHeU61npTGGsSmjqUrybQtNe5c2qvSNFh2D65zBg 9JgcuQd8vhj3fJSV9ma7Ul/?app=fbl

[Bible-believer]

I had helped sisters with mental issues. Some were young full-timers, and some worked at DCP. They worked at different departments or said served different matters, but they had the same symptoms: insomnia, depression, headache, rigidness, and not being happy. I remember one of them came to me with a stiff body and rushed back to work with a little relief after treatment. Some of them came to me with forced smiles on their faces. I wondered where was the "enjoyment."

[Nell]

Almost nothing could convince me more that Witness Lee absolutely had no idea what he was talking about. It is beyond my comprehension that anyone would consider this joker some kind of wise guru or man of God. What a waste of my childhood.

Maybe a WL apologist/coworker would argue that "he said this a while ago, this was the prevailing thought at the time". My response would be - then publish retractions or updates where you acknowledge his prior teachings were wrong and extremely damaging, repent for the hurt it caused people, and admit you have no expertise on the matter, and point people to actual experts rather than telling them to keep reading Witness Lee only.

What I wouldn't give to be able to go back in time and stand up in a conference where Witness Lee was speaking and oppose his lies to his face.

Workers at DCP who read this forum - you have no excuse before God if you continue to defend and propagate this type of sewage. And if you think that what Lee taught in this excerpt is true, then you also have no clue what you are talking about either.

Trapped

Trapped,

Good points.

In addition, Lee's failed "ministry" causes emotional problems. Then he blames and accuses those who develop "emotional problems" of having "emotional problems." The co-workers can't repent and retract and change. Why? They are deceived.

Nell

[UntoHim]

Here is the entire horrific quote:
Most young women are sick either emotionally or mentally. No psychiatrist can help them. However, if you live the church life, the very Christ whom you offer to God will heal you. He is better than any psychiatrist. Do not go to a psychiatrist—come to Christ and offer Him to God. Then you will be healthy, sober, and emotionally balanced. Since the church life is the proper life, it brings in God's blessing. Peace, joy, love, sympathy, kindness, normal living—all are signs of such a blessing of life which comes by the experience of Christ through the cross.
Witness Lee,
Life-Study of Genesis, Message 32
-

[Ohio]

Here is the entire horrific quote:
Most young women are sick either emotionally or mentally. No psychiatrist can help them. However, if you live the church life, the very Christ whom you offer to God will heal you. He is better than any psychiatrist. Do not go to a psychiatrist—come to Christ and offer Him to God. Then you will be healthy, sober, and emotionally balanced. Since the church life is the proper life, it brings in God's blessing. Peace, joy, love, sympathy, kindness, normal living—all are signs of such a blessing of life which comes by the experience of Christ through the cross.
Witness Lee,
Life-Study of Genesis, Message 32
-
My, how things have changed over the last half century!

It’s been almost 50 years since I first met a handful of bro/sis at work. They really “glowed” with the glory of God. They had just uprooted and migrated to Cleveland. Each testified of how the Lord rescued them from their old sad life and saved them dramatically. It was just undeniable that the Lord was with them richly. I was unsaved but what they had was quite attractive. Jesus Christ and His word was all they spoke of.

Now before some of you freak out as if I am now promoting the Recovery, let me say more.

First, that was somewhat the context for Lee’s statement above from the Genesis LS. Second, and this became the reason whatever “blessing” was there got removed, WL began to take all the credit for that blessing, rather than give it to God. Third, WL replaced God’s word with his own ministry, and replaced the Lord with practices, teachings, ordinances, legalism, and dead works. Fourth, WL hid much corruption and unrighteousness in his ministry.

Today, I would no more recommend LSM for an seeking Christian than I would recommend someone with a headache take fentanyl.

[Zezima]

Here is the entire horrific quote:
Most young women are sick either emotionally or mentally. No psychiatrist can help them. However, if you live the church life, the very Christ whom you offer to God will heal you. He is better than any psychiatrist. Do not go to a psychiatrist—come to Christ and offer Him to God. Then you will be healthy, sober, and emotionally balanced. Since the church life is the proper life, it brings in God's blessing. Peace, joy, love, sympathy, kindness, normal living—all are signs of such a blessing of life which comes by the experience of Christ through the cross.
Witness Lee,
Life-Study of Genesis, Message 32
-

The context of this section has nothing to really do with “sisters” why does he randomly call them out? Do males not experience mental illness?

Here’s the portion before:
Look at today's society. There is no cold, heat, summer, winter, day, or night. The people who attend the night clubs make the night day and the day night. Because they do not have the proper life, they are under the curse. In the church, we must have the proper life under God's blessing. Unlike us, people are not used to the church life. We who are used to the church life are truly under God's blessing, not only spiritually and mentally, but even physically. All of the church people are so healthy because they are under God's blessing through the church life.


Reminds me of Luke 18, “The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed this prayer: ‘I thank you, God, that I am not like other people—cheaters, sinners, adulterers. I’m certainly not like that tax collector! I fast twice a week, and I give you a tenth of my income.”

[Unregistered]

Here’s the portion before:
Look at today's society. There is no cold, heat, summer, winter, day, or night. The people who attend the night clubs make the night day and the day night. Because they do not have the proper life, they are under the curse. In the church, we must have the proper life under God's blessing. Unlike us, people are not used to the church life. We who are used to the church life are truly under God's blessing, not only spiritually and mentally, but even physically. All of the church people are so healthy because they are under God's blessing through the church life.


Just a lie, after lie, after lie! Some of the most physically sick people I ever met in my entire life, were people of the local church. Almost all people in the locality I was in had some of the strangest and rarest conditions I ever heard. Their children and grandchildren had conditions that I haven’t heard of since I left Recovery. But hey, it was all for building up of the body, as they go on living under this curse! What a total blind, foolish statement to make! It’s almost as if this man challenged people to look the other way, and they did, and still do.

[GraceAlone]

Here is the entire horrific quote:
Most young women are sick either emotionally or mentally. No psychiatrist can help them. However, if you live the church life, the very Christ whom you offer to God will heal you. He is better than any psychiatrist. Do not go to a psychiatrist—come to Christ and offer Him to God. Then you will be healthy, sober, and emotionally balanced. Since the church life is the proper life, it brings in God's blessing. Peace, joy, love, sympathy, kindness, normal living—all are signs of such a blessing of life which comes by the experience of Christ through the cross.
Witness Lee,
Life-Study of Genesis, Message 32
-

I’m not sure which is more horrific — the quote itself or the fact that nearly 300 people “liked” or Amen-ed it on Facebook.😱

(And this is an example of why the protestations on Shepherding Words about how the ministry doesn’t criticize seeking psychological care seem so disingenuous.)

[awareness]

Here is the entire horrific quote:
Most young women are sick either emotionally or mentally. No psychiatrist can help them. However, if you live the church life, the very Christ whom you offer to God will heal you. He is better than any psychiatrist. Do not go to a psychiatrist—come to Christ and offer Him to God. Then you will be healthy, sober, and emotionally balanced. Since the church life is the proper life, it brings in God's blessing. Peace, joy, love, sympathy, kindness, normal living—all are signs of such a blessing of life which comes by the experience of Christ through the cross.
Witness Lee,
Life-Study of Genesis, Message 32
-
Literally ... makes me want to barf!!!

[Where is it?]

Here is the entire horrific quote:
However, if you live the church life, the very Christ whom you offer to God will heal you.
Witness Lee,
Life-Study of Genesis, Message 32
-

Just curious,
Is this even a biblical statement, “Christ whom you offer to God”? Maybe I’m wrong, but I don’t believe that this is what Bible teaches. Christ offered Himself for us, thus satisfying God the Father, there is no more offering of Christ to God necessary or needed. It is finished He said!

[Trapped]

Just curious,
Is this even a biblical statement, “Christ whom you offer to God”? Maybe I’m wrong, but I don’t believe that this is what Bible teaches. Christ offered Himself for us, thus satisfying God the Father, there is no more offering of Christ to God necessary or needed. It is finished He said!

Great observation. Off the top of my head I can't think of anything whereby "we should offer Christ to God". It's not that at all! It's that Christ offered Himself for us and will forever intercede for us before God!

Trapped

[Where is it?]

Look at today's society. There is no cold, heat, summer, winter, day, or night. The people who attend the night clubs make the night day and the day night. Because they do not have the proper life, they are under the curse. In the church, we must have the proper life under God's blessing. Unlike us, people are not used to the church life. We who are used to the church life are truly under God's blessing, not only spiritually and mentally, but even physically. All of the church people are so healthy because they are under God's blessing through the church life.
Most young women are sick either emotionally or mentally. No psychiatrist can help them. However, if you live the church life, the very Christ whom you offer to God will heal you. He is better than any psychiatrist. Do not go to a psychiatrist—come to Christ and offer Him to God. Then you will be healthy, sober, and emotionally balanced. Since the church life is the proper life, it brings in God's blessing. Peace, joy, love, sympathy, kindness, normal living—all are signs of such a blessing of life which comes by the experience of Christ through the cross.

I will rewrite this quote, to actually be truthful and Biblical.

“Look at today’s society. There is no cold, heat, summer, winter, day, or night. The people who attend the night clubs make the night day and the day night. Because they do not know Jesus, they live under the control and the power of this world. However, people who live under the deception of man in the “church life”, suffering from living under the cursed system, have no blessings in any way, not spiritually, not mentally, and it shows up even in the physical. The people in the church life, are so unable to see these things, that it’s easier to go and talk to a person at night clubs, and in the society.

Most young men an women, who came through the local church have issues, as a result of it, mentally and emotionally. No one in the local church can help them! No church life, no special offering of Christ to God has been able to do anything, but further exacerbate the problems. Although Christ is way better than any psychiatrist, and can by His mighty hand do a miracle in a persons life and set them free, sometimes just a human intervention is necessary just to stop the damage and destruction done by the local church. Sometimes by allowing other true Christian’s to show people of the local church peace, joy, love, sympathy, kindness, and normal living, they might get to know real church and the real Jesus. They will experience the blessings in life that they never had or will as a members of the local church”

[Sons to Glory!]

From todays WL quote: If every believer saw what he received at the time of his salvation, he would be beside himself with joy. We received the rich and glorious Triune God—the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. Very few believers experience this kind of joy when they are saved. Usually believers know that their sins have been forgiven and that God loves them. However, they did not see the treasure that they have received when they were saved. What they saw was merely a shell, the covering of the treasure.

[UntoHim]

Very few believers experience this kind of joy when they are saved

How could Witness Lee possibly have known what the average Christian "believer experienced". For the last 60+ years of his life he did everything he could to have no significant contact with any other Christians. (other then the ones who he conned into following him and his so-called "ministry of the age") He spent a lifetime despising, ridiculing, belittling and mocking his brothers and sisters in Christ. He formed an entire ministry revolving around this. And this horrific attitude continues in the Local Church movement to this very day.

In nearly every training and conference meeting LSM speakers continue in speaking such nonsense as "most Christians believe this" or "most Christians practice this" or "very few Christians see what we see". Nothing has really changed. May God have mercy.
-

[Cal]

11/9/2022 Watchman Nee quote:

"All human affection is empty"

This is an example of Nee's (and Lee's) hyperbole and extremism. God created human affection. Affection for others, our friends, family, children, even our pets. This pleases him and is healthy. It is not the highest form of love, which is zoe, unconditional love. But it is a normal thing which can help facilitate the highest form of love, and something which God intended for us to experience and enjoy.

Paul wrote that degraded humanity would be "without natural affection." The word he used there was astorgos which means "unsociable, inhuman." It refers to the lack of natural, friendly affection in society and family.

The LR turned astorgos into a practice, saying you can't have friends, shouldn't show affection, that doing so was "honey love." This was absolutely a false teaching and is an example of how Nee and Lee's extremism led to practices that actually deny the normal humanity than God created.

[Unregistered]

“ Actually, only God can satisfy a Christian's heart; man cannot. The failure of many is to seek from man what can be found only in God. All human affection is empty; the love of God alone is able to fully satisfy one's desire. The moment a Christian seeks a love outside God his spiritual life immediately falls.”

Let me take it even further, Biblically speaking, if this quote above is correct and even remotely true, then let’s throw away Genesis 2 down the drain. When Adam was in the garden, had full access to God, unlike none of us do today I would say, God said “ It is not good that the man should be alone”. Why? Didn’t Adam experience the love of God? His care daily? He did for sure! But there is a need for a person of a human companion, helper, love and care that God Himself created in every human being, the desire of another’s human to love and care for them. It starts with marriage, children and if a healthy church is build on healthy families, then it translates to friendships, brotherly love and care for others. When it’s absent as it is in the LC, we have storms, destruction of families, children and young man and women.

I hate to add this, but I know couples, who were married solely on the principles of church, no natural attraction or affection. What a disasters, suffering and neglect, not only for themselves but the children also. That’s the result of false teachings and false reality, visible to all, but unable help, due to the complete ignorance.😢

If you call yourself a Christian, and you can’t display normal, natural, human God given love and affection, then forget about loving people with the love of God, that’s the ultimate display of sacrificial love, which cannon be faked or counterfeited, especially when the first has been destroyed.

[Cal]

Let me take it even further, Biblically speaking, if this quote above is correct and even remotely true, then let’s throw away Genesis 2 down the drain. When Adam was in the garden, had full access to God, unlike none of us do today I would say, God said “ It is not good that the man should be alone”. Why? Didn’t Adam experience the love of God? His care daily? He did for sure!

True. One way God shows his love for us is giving us family and friends and other companionship.

[UntoHim]

Actually, only God can satisfy a Christian's heart; man cannot. The failure of many is to seek from man what can be found only in God. All human affection is empty; the love of God alone is able to fully satisfy one's desire. The moment a Christian seeks a love outside God his spiritual life immediately falls.
Watchman Nee
The Spiritual Man

[Ohio]

Actually, only God can satisfy a Christian's heart; man cannot. The failure of many is to seek from man what can be found only in God. All human affection is empty; the love of God alone is able to fully satisfy one's desire. The moment a Christian seeks a love outside God his spiritual life immediately falls.
Watchman Nee
The Spiritual Man

“The moment a Christian seeks a love outside God his spiritual life immediately falls?”

Seriously? Sounds like a marketing scheme during the Dark Ages for the town monastery for boys or convent for girls.

The Bible never tells us not to seek love from others. Who would ever get married with such a pathetic attitude. It’s no wonder the Recovery has such a poor track record on marriage.

[Zezima]

Actually, only God can satisfy a Christian's heart; man cannot. The failure of many is to seek from man what can be found only in God. All human affection is empty; the love of God alone is able to fully satisfy one's desire. The moment a Christian seeks a love outside God his spiritual life immediately falls.
Watchman Nee
The Spiritual Man

If God is love, how is it possible to seek love outside of God?

[gr8ful]

11/9/2022 Watchman Nee quote:

"All human affection is empty"

...

Paul wrote that degraded humanity would be "without natural affection." The word he used there was astorgos which means "unsociable, inhuman." It refers to the lack of natural, friendly affection in society and family.

The LR turned astorgos into a practice, saying you can't have friends, shouldn't show affection, that doing so was "honey love." This was absolutely a false teaching and is an example of how Nee and Lee's extremism led to practices that actually deny the normal humanity than God created.

This makes my heart hurt. I did manage to make friends in TLR but I always had guilt regarding this. Today, whenever I run into a current member who knows me, they're polite but keep the conversation light in case I infect them, I guess. No desire to continue the 20+ years of routine, personal, contact...outside of maybe bringing me back.

But I've moved on and, in the past several years, established new relationships that are fulfilling. And guilt-free.

[GraceAlone]

This makes my heart hurt. I did manage to make friends in TLR but I always had guilt regarding this. Today, whenever I run into a current member who knows me, they're polite but keep the conversation light in case I infect them, I guess. No desire to continue the 20+ years of routine, personal, contact...outside of maybe bringing me back.

But I've moved on and, in the past several years, established new relationships that are fulfilling. And guilt-free.

gr8ful, I’ve had a similar experience (both the negative and the positive you mentioned).

By the way, I found C.S. Lewis’ book “The Four Loves” to be a helpful exploration of the various God-ordained kinds of love, and an antidote to the meager and distorted teaching on love that I received in the LR. (I think the fruit of that teaching includes lots of lonely saints.)

[Zezima]

Today, whenever I run into a current member who knows me, they're polite but keep the conversation light in case I infect them

This reminds me of a time in the FTTA, I went to dinner at an older couples house on our off time (Sunday night). They spoke about some “storm” in the 80’s or 90’ I can’t remember the specific date. They were walking at Modjeska park, and bumped into a couple that had been “poisoned” by this turmoil. They said hello, and the poisoned couple began speaking about the turmoil. At this point, the older couple said that they literally ran away from them, and when they got home they got on their knees begging God to be inoculated from said poison.

It’s really sad

[UntoHim]

All human affection is empty;
Watchman Nee

In general, it is not fair or advisable to take a few words from a lengthy quote, and then launch into a critique based upon those few words, but one is forced to make a rule out of what should be an exception when it comes to the ministry writings of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee.

Now if Nee had made the obvious/reasonable observation that "SOME human affection is empty", that would be one thing, but no, Watchman, as he was apt to do, had to frame everything in the extreme. In this one short quote, Nee used unnecessarily extreme/final terms such as "only God", "man cannot", "the failure of many" "only in God", "all human affection" "the love of God alone" "immediately falls".

In my experience and observation, when one resorts to framing things in the extreme, it usually indicates a lack of genuine experience and/or knowledge of the subject at hand.
-

[Cal]

In general, it is not fair or advisable to take a few words from a lengthy quote, and then launch into a critique based upon those few words, but one is forced to make a rule out of what should be an exception when it comes to the ministry writings of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee.

Now if Nee had made the obvious/reasonable observation that "SOME human affection is empty", that would be one thing, but no, Watchman, as he was apt to do, had to frame everything in the extreme. In this one short quote, Nee used unnecessarily extreme/final terms such as "only God", "man cannot", "the failure of many" "only in God", "all human affection" "the love of God alone" "immediately falls".

In my experience and observation, when one resorts to framing things in the extreme, it usually indicates a lack of genuine experience and/or knowledge of the subject at hand.
-

True. It is as wrong to take one phrase someone said and try to make a case out it as it is to take one Bible verse, while forgetting all the others, and try to make a case out it.

My assertions were based not only on what Nee said here, but on how far the LR took them and Lee's similar claims. They were also based on ideas I heard over and over in the LR, about rejecting natural affection, which are in direct contradiction to Romans 1:31, and the ultimate fruit of all that.

The LR likes to say that "the truth is two-sided," yet so often when making their extreme claims they don't bother to balance them.

[Cal]

If God is love, how is it possible to seek love outside of God?

Because God is the source of human love. He created it. But let me add that a person who seeks human love, but rejects God's love will ultimately come up empty.

[Nell]

“The moment a Christian seeks a love outside God his spiritual life immediately falls?”


Sounds like an indictment of itself--the LC/LSM, has been seeking to establish a form of the "Christian life" outside of God...the end result being a great fall, or fail.

Nell

[UntoHim]

"Recently I read an article in which I was accused of destroying the practice of Christmas.
Actually I do not have any intention to attack the practice of Christmas.
I certainly do not have the intention of opposing either Christmas or Christianity".
Life Study of 2 Corinthians Message 17
~
"Another example is Christmas. Christmas is a blasphemy to Christ, and no Christian with a pure conscience should have anything to do with it.
As the book, The Two Babylons, proves, Christmas originated from European paganism.
Centuries before the Christian era, on December 25 the European pagans celebrated the birthday of the sun".
Life-Study of Hebrews, Chapter 56, Section 2
~
https://i.postimg.cc/q787Qk0q/Witness-Lee-With-Daystar-Motorhome.jpg
Witness Lee
~
-------------------------------------------------------------

Witness apparently had a different idea of what "I do not have any intention to attack" actually means! There are probably thousands of such examples of Lee contradicting himself. God have mercy.
-

[Cal]

It's worse than I even thought.

[UntoHim]

If the Lord's people
will humble themselves
by admitting that deception
is quite possible to them,
they will be the less deceived.
https://i.postimg.cc/qR9MB41D/Watchman-Nee.jpg
~

Watchman, oh Watchman, If only you knew what would become of your Little Flock! Now the deceived have become the deceivers, the peace makers have come to make war, hearts of flesh have become hearts of stone, some of the sheep have become wolfs, vessels of mercy have become broken cisterns, precious ointment traded for mammon and the Kingdom of God traded for a kingdom of men. May God have mercy.
-

[Unregistered]

述祖 倪柝声弟兄 (Watchman Nee) tried everything to camouflage himself as some special incarnation of believer, but in my opinion caused more deception and evil to happen to a lot of people. Started in China, and when it all fell apart there, he send his deceivers elsewhere to justify the life that he pretend to live. How I wish more people would give up on public narratives and LSM spin-offs, and actually look at the whole situation with clear thinking and sound mind.
-

[Onlooker]

“He who has the most opinions has the grossest self. Therefore, when we re together young brothers or sisters, we need to grasp this principle and not let there opinion have any place. Since we love the church and expect our church to be thriving and prosperous, we must bury our opinions.”

I’m very curious if this quote actually applies to Witness himself? As far as I can tell, every footnote and every so-called “recovery” is his opinion, which there is lots and lots of those. There are probably more opinions on each page of the recovery Bible than the actual Holy Spirit inspired Word. So when is Mr. Lee will be buried with his opinions by the local church, and they will let the Word of God finally due its work? I would guess never, because these rules and “opinions” are for ye and not for me! Oh, sorry, his wasn’t opinions, it was pure oracle of god propaganda! After all, his famous quote rings true: “when I’m in my spirit, and I speak, god speaks!” (Paraphrasing). Y’all better listen up, and drop, bury everyone else!

[Trapped]

I’m very curious if this quote actually applies to Witness himself? As far as I can tell, every footnote and every so-called “recovery” is his opinion, which there is lots and lots of those. There are probably more opinions on each page of the recovery Bible than the actual Holy Spirit inspired Word. So when is Mr. Lee will be buried with his opinions by the local church, and they will let the Word of God finally due its work? I would guess never, because these rules and “opinions” are for ye and not for me! Oh, sorry, his wasn’t opinions, it was pure oracle of god propaganda! After all, his famous quote rings true: “when I’m in my spirit, and I speak, god speaks!” (Paraphrasing). Y’all better listen up, and drop, bury everyone else!

Exactly. Witness Lee wanted his own little world where his opinions ruled and no one else's opinions were allowed. I guess he thought he got around that by saying "you must see" or "you have to see" whenever he rolled one of his copious opinions out.

"If I just pass them off as divine fact maybe no one will notice that I'm in fact the one with the grossest self around here! I know, I'll just tell everyone that THEIR self is gross!"

[UntoHim]

He who has the most opinions has the grossest self. Therefore, when we re together young brothers or sisters, we need to grasp this principle and not let there opinion have any place. Since we love the church and expect our church to be thriving and prosperous, we must bury our opinions.
Witness Lee
Excerpts from CWWL, 1953, Vol 1,3
As quoted at Lord's Recovery Unchained (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtQZljO2C2w)
~

[Zezima]

NEE: A drowning man cannot be saved until he is utterly exhausted and ceases to make the slightest effort to save himself.

This is really good advice and any lifeguard worth their salt would confirm.

[Unregistered]

A drowning man cannot be saved until he is utterly exhausted and ceases to make the slightest effort to save himself.

Can someone please send a notification notice to all members of the local church, that there is no need to redo the completed work of Christ, and putting in all of that effort on daily basis to try to accomplish something that was already done! Trying to save yourselves by practicing some invented methods of Lee, and following instructions from a man who hasn’t shown a slightest effort to actually lead people to God, but focused all his life to make sure everyone is following him, will get you drowned. Unfortunately there are no lifeguards on duty in the local churches to even see the utterly exhausted, drowning people, that in most cases have ceased to show any effort to even call out for help!

[Nell]

If any person desires to think, he must possess memory, imagination and reasoning power; but the Christian has presently lost these powers, hence is unable to think. He cannot create, deduce or recollect, nor can he compare, judge and apprehend. Therefore he cannot think. And should he attempt to do so he experiences a kind of dazed sensation which stifles any productive thought.

Watchman Nee
The Spiritual Man

WOW. Just WOW. Is he talking about himself? Lee? Was Nee dazed when he wrote this? That would make sense.

OK, why is it we ever thought this guy was spiritually gifted...or something like that?

Nell

[zeek]

WOW. Just WOW. Is he talking about himself? Lee? Was Nee dazed when he wrote this? That would make sense.

OK, why is it we ever thought this guy was spiritually gifted...or something like that?

Nell

I'm unable to make sense of that statement. What page is it on? We know the importance of context for interpretation. What is the context of that statement?

[Nell]

I'm unable to make sense of that statement. What page is it on? We know the importance of context for interpretation. What is the context of that statement?

Quote From 12/28/2022 Watchman/Witness Wednesday…Watchman Nee, Spiritual Man. Still on the front page.

Also Post #437 in green. Your quote is #438.

[Trapped]

I'm unable to make sense of that statement. What page is it on? We know the importance of context for interpretation. What is the context of that statement?

zeek,

Best I can find is at this link, which says "part 8, chapter 2".

https://www.churchinmarlboro.org/christdigest/NiTuoSheng/part8chapter2.htm

The quote in question is around halfway down the page, last half of the first paragraph under the header "INACTIVITY".

Trapped

[zeek]

Quote From 12/28/2022 Watchman/Witness Wednesday…Watchman Nee, Spiritual Man. Still on the front page.

Also Post #437 in green. Your quote is #438.

Thanks, but I was asking for the context in which the quote occured without which I found it impossible to understand what Nee was getting at.

[zeek]

zeek,

Best I can find is at this link, which says "part 8, chapter 2".

https://www.churchinmarlboro.org/christdigest/NiTuoSheng/part8chapter2.htm

The quote in question is around halfway down the page, last half of the first paragraph under the header "INACTIVITY".

Trapped

Thank you. Now the quote makes sense. Nee was doing spiritual diagnostic work. He was describing a mind attacked by an evil spirit. When I was involved in the LCs the "leading brothers" as we called them steered us away from "The Spiritual Man". Of course, they pretty much steered us away from anything but Witness Lee's works any way, so it wasn't surprising.

Secular societry would call all of what Nee is describing as mental illness. There is plenty of evidence that professing Christians are not immune to mental illness. That all the symptoms that Nee described are caused simply by a"passive mind" attacked by evil spirits as Nee conjectures, is doubtful. To me, the big question would be if anything in the book actually helps anybody. But, I'm reading other things and I'm not interested in reading Nee, at the moment.

When I was in the church in Fort Lauderdale, a young brother who attended the meetings began hallucinating, became suicidal and slit his throat from ear to ear. He was rushed to the hospital where they saved his life, placed him on psychotropic medication and stabilized him. I visited him in the psychiatric hospital. He said he was no longer suicidal and calmly said to me that people like him surely need to believe in Christ. The wound on his throat had healed but he would have the scar from ear to ear for the rest of his life, I thought. I never saw him in an LC meeting again.

He wasn't the only person I witnessed who seemed to be afflicted by serious mental illness in the LCs. They were coming to the LC for help. Were they getting it?

Back then, it made me question whether all the meetings, pray-reading and calling on the Lord were really doing anything for any of us. The "church life' seemed to have no power on folks with serious problems.

To me it remains a question for serious reflection. It appears we can engage in all kinds of spiritual practices and have all kinds of beliefs, but, in the end "there but for the grace of God, go I."

[UntoHim]

If any person desires to think, he must possess memory, imagination and reasoning power; but the Christian has presently lost these powers, hence is unable to think. He cannot create, deduce or recollect, nor can he compare, judge and apprehend. Therefore he cannot think. And should he attempt to do so he experiences a kind of dazed sensation which stifles any productive thought.
Watchman Nee
The Spiritual Man

[Ohio]

If any person desires to think, he must possess memory, imagination and reasoning power; but the Christian has presently lost these powers, hence is unable to think. He cannot create, deduce or recollect, nor can he compare, judge and apprehend. Therefore he cannot think. And should he attempt to do so he experiences a kind of dazed sensation which stifles any productive thought.
Watchman Nee
The Spiritual Man
There is not a context in the world that would give this statement an iota of validity. I guess that’s what happens when you plagiarize JPL.

[UntoHim]

Good point Ohio. And such is the problem with quoting anybody about anything. There is always a larger context, but there is only so much room and bandwidth! I do my best to al ways include enough content to let a quote or statement stand on it's own. This can be somewhat problematic when quoting Nee and Lee since they were so all-over-the-board on theological subjects, and were apt to contradict themselves, sometimes in the very same paragraph!

In regards to elders/co-workers advising the members to avoid The Spiritual Man, the problem is that Witness Lee claimed that Nee was the One Minister of the Age and the One Deputy Authority of God on earth. He never said that Nee's earlier ministry was to be avoided. Actually he said just the opposite. And neither have the Blended Brothers officially repudiated one single word or iota of Nee's writings. Not one.
(I'm assuming that JPL is Jesse Penn Lewis)
-

[Ohio]

In regards to elders/co-workers advising the members to avoid The Spiritual Man, the problem is that Witness Lee claimed that Nee was the One Minister of the Age and the One Deputy Authority of God on earth. He never said that Nee's earlier ministry was to be avoided. Actually he said just the opposite. And neither have the Blended Brothers officially repudiated one single word or iota of Nee's writings. Not one.
(I'm assuming that JPL is Jesse Penn Lewis)
-
Yes, Penn-Lewis. Note that she authored a periodical named The Overcomer. Of course, both Nee and Lee followed her lead to endorse this special class of believers.

I have similar concerns about Nee's later ministry. Lee "restored" Nee, yet without a public repentance, implying that the blame should be on the elders for wrongly disciplining him six years prior to this. Apparently the first thing Nee did was to require the saints to "hand over" their belonging to his ministry. Then it is alleged that he made secret deals with the new communist government on behalf of the saints. Sounds more like a "pope" than a "humble servant."

At the FTTT in 1986-87, WL and the Blendeds began to introduce this "hand over" teaching to the elders and workers, (cf Acts 4.34-35) but note that this practice was never *prescribed* as an apostolic teaching, but rather only *described* as what happened in the church post-Pentecost, and that the proceeds of sales were never given to the ministry to build conference centers, but to the needy believers. The Apostles never taught this, and after the deaths of Ananias and Sapphira, it was never mentioned again. The RCC, however, back in the dark ages revived this practice and demanded this of all their priests and nuns.)

[zeek]

There is not a context in the world that would give this statement an iota of validity. I guess that’s what happens when you plagiarize JPL.

Did somebody here suggest that it was valid?

[Ohio]

Did somebody here suggest that it was valid?

I don’t think UntoHim was suggesting that, but I’ll let him respond.

[Zezima]

[COLOR="Navy"] regards to elders/co-workers advising the members to avoid The Spiritual Man, the problem is that Witness Lee claimed that Nee was the One Minister of the Age and the One Deputy Authority of God on earth.
-

I think I maybe of a different generation, but this book was never mentioned as one to avoid. There was some “rumors” about it being some crazy book that if you weren’t spiritually ready it could “damage” you (like Latent Power of The Soul). However this was never confirmed by an elder, in fact they encouraged me to read it whenever I brought it up

[zeek]

Good point Ohio. And such is the problem with quoting anybody about anything. There is always a larger context, but there is only so much room and bandwidth! I do my best to al ways include enough content to let a quote or statement stand on it's own. This can be somewhat problematic when quoting Nee and Lee since they were so all-over-the-board on theological subjects, and were apt to contradict themselves, sometimes in the very same paragraph!

In regards to elders/co-workers advising the members to avoid The Spiritual Man, the problem is that Witness Lee claimed that Nee was the One Minister of the Age and the One Deputy Authority of God on earth. He never said that Nee's earlier ministry was to be avoided. Actually he said just the opposite. And neither have the Blended Brothers officially repudiated one single word or iota of Nee's writings. Not one.
(I'm assuming that JPL is Jesse Penn Lewis)
-

In the 13 years I went to local church meetings, conferences and trainings, I don’t recall Witness Lee ever recommending that we read Watchman Nee’s books. The impression I got was that, yes Nee had been the MOTA but now Lee was and we should “ drop the past because the Lord is moving much too fast.” as he used to say.

[Ohio]

In the 13 years I went to local church meetings, conferences and trainings, I don’t recall Witness Lee ever recommending that we read Watchman Nee’s books. The impression I got was that, yes Nee had been the MOTA but now Lee was and we should “ drop the past because the Lord is moving much too fast.” as he used to say.
Yet, Lee often exalted Nee with unending superlatives, translated and re-translated every thing Nee ever said so that they could get around copyrights at CLC and CFP and other publishers, and then published those Blue Volumes, The Collected Works of WN. Perhaps some things have changed after you departed, zeek.


https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse3.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP. VU7leRhyEQXnCKHPJTv_ugHaD4%26pid%3DApi&f=1&ipt=33928a0b2dda165bfc7bda5714d0f0be95516b97c17557 4a9201f2c3e25824b4&ipo=images

[zeek]

Yet, Lee often exalted Nee with unending superlatives, translated and re-translated every thing Nee ever said so that they could get around copyrights at CLC and CFP and other publishers, and then published those Blue Volumes, The Collected Works of WN. Perhaps some things have changed after you departed, zeek.


https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse3.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP. VU7leRhyEQXnCKHPJTv_ugHaD4%26pid%3DApi&f=1&ipt=33928a0b2dda165bfc7bda5714d0f0be95516b97c17557 4a9201f2c3e25824b4&ipo=images

Right, well there were always some of Nee’s books for sale in the book store. It’s just that Lee always wanted us to read his stuff as I recall it.

[UntoHim]

The teachings taught by many in Christianity today are fragmentary. They teach the Christ who was crucified on the cross but not the Christ who comes into us. They teach that Christ died for us, but they do not teach that Christ lives in us. Christ dying on the cross for us was for redemption, whereas Christ living in us is for being our life. For Christ to solve our problems, He had to be the Redeemer, but for Christ to come into us as our life, He has to be the life-giving Spirit. If Christ were not the Redeemer, He could not solve our problems, but if He were the Redeemer but not the life-giving Spirit, He could not come into us to be our life. Hence, the Bible twice speaks of His “becoming” something. First He became flesh (John 1:14), and then He became the life-giving Spirit (1 Cor. 15:45b).
Witness Lee
Four Crucial Elements of the Bible
The Christ, the Spirit, Life, and the Church

[alwayscurious]

The teachings taught by many in Christianity today are fragmentary. They teach the Christ who was crucified on the cross but not the Christ who comes into us. They teach that Christ died for us, but they do not teach that Christ lives in us. Christ dying on the cross for us was for redemption, whereas Christ living in us is for being our life. For Christ to solve our problems, He had to be the Redeemer, but for Christ to come into us as our life, He has to be the life-giving Spirit. If Christ were not the Redeemer, He could not solve our problems, but if He were the Redeemer but not the life-giving Spirit, He could not come into us to be our life. Hence, the Bible twice speaks of His “becoming” something. First He became flesh (John 1:14), and then He became the life-giving Spirit (1 Cor. 15:45b).
Witness Lee
Four Crucial Elements of the Bible
The Christ, the Spirit, Life, and the Church

A simple google search led me to this https://lifehopeandtruth.com/change/christian-conversion/christ-in-us/.
Seems like Brother Lee is a bit wrong on this matter, many actually do teach the Christ who comes into us...
Am I wrong on this matter?

[Nell]

A simple google search led me to this https://lifehopeandtruth.com/change/christian-conversion/christ-in-us/.
Seems like Brother Lee is a bit wrong on this matter, many actually do teach the Christ who comes into us...
Am I wrong on this matter?

AC,

You’re not wrong.

Nell

[JJ]

AC,

You’re not wrong.

Nell

Yes, such broad brush statements criticizing other Christian teachers (LSM is filled with them) are both untrue and toxic…. Certainly not consistent with the mind of Christ described in Philippians 2.

[Ohio]

Right, well there were always some of Nee’s books for sale in the book store. It’s just that Lee always wanted us to read his stuff as I recall it.
Perhaps that was back in the day when CLC and CFP were publishing all of Nee’s writings.

[JJ]

Perhaps that was back in the day when CLC and CFP were publishing all of Nee’s writings.

Lee wanted us to buy and read everything published by Living Stream Ministry (LSM, which Lee ran), including Nee’s works published by LSM. While the book stores in the Local Churches also sold CLC and CFP versions of translated Nee spoken teachings and Nee writings, Lee “trashed” their translations and their publishers (so over time we read them less and less). At the time I assumed Lee was right about all that, but I didn’t know Chinese to compare the translations, nor did I know the other publishers to check on their character vs what Lee said about them. It turns out that I was lied to, and we all were. Shame shame!

[Ohio]

Lee wanted us to buy and read everything published by Living Stream Ministry (LSM, which Lee ran), including Nee’s works published by LSM. While the book stores in the Local Churches also sold CLC and CFP versions of translated Nee spoken teachings and Nee writings, Lee “trashed” their translations and their publishers (so over time we read them less and less). At the time I assumed Lee was right about all that, but I didn’t know Chinese to compare the translations, nor did I know the other publishers to check on their character vs what Lee said about them. It turns out that I was lied to, and we all were. Shame shame!
Yes, we were lied to. Back when I first contacted the LC, I bought Against The Tide, by Angus Kinnear, the son-in-law of T. A. Sparks. I had been hearing about Nee in the meetings, so why not read about him. An elder found out that I had the book, and warned me not to read it because "there are over 200 major errors in the book." How would he know that? That was obviously the rumor WL had spread. WL insisted that only his version of history would be written in the Recovery.