RE: Open Letter - Dear Saints in the Lord's Recovery - Joann Casteel

[ACuriousFellow]

Hi Ohio,
If someone does not like to fellowship and worship in the Lord's recovery, then they are free to leave.

Yeah, sure. Raise a kid. Tell 'em that every other denomination is deformed and degraded and that The Lord's Recovery is the only way. Make every effort to hammer that in so that they become terrified of "death" for every thought they have against Witness Lee. Teach them to devalue relationships with other Christians who follow the "low gospel." Now 99% of their deepest relationships are in The Recovery. Then they start finding out all the nasty things that you guys did. They have concerns and want to fix the problem with their fellow saints in The Recovery. What are they told? Some believers would rather meet in another place where they are more comfortable.

"If you do not like it here, you can leave."

To take your own life is ones own responsibility, not a specific group of believers. It is ridiculous to blame anyone other than a mentally confused person. It is sad when a person is so depressed that they take their life, but no one encourages such an action. Obviously a weak, depressed, confused person needs some help and perhaps should seek it professionally. May the Lord have mercy on all the weaker vessels.

I would counsel you to read up on some basic psychology. Maybe take a semester with the simplest psychology courses in some community college. That's all it takes. Then when you finish those most basic of courses in psychology, take a hard look at what you've written right here while considering everything that your denomination teaches.

And boy will I have a laugh if you respond with something akin to "I am a psychologist."

[UnfilteredSkeptic]

If there is a way to describe the situation with the local church of Witness Lee, I would apply this statement that I heard from a sermon awhile back, “You are so spiritually minded, that you are no earthly good”. I understand that this isn’t a Biblical text to expound upon or something that is or was said by Biblical author. However, for those of us who have been in this movement, it hits close to home every time. The mastery and wizardry of Witness Lee to revolutionize the basic principles of application and reading of scriptures, (never mind the specific words of Jesus himself), and to punctuate and replace all tangible, meaningful things that pertain to every human need while in this world such as love, care, natural affection, friendships, relationships etc, with some life in the mystical realm as only a way of “God’s economy or God’s heart desire”, is a travesty and abomination!

Reading and seeing so many people struggling to cope with the devastating consequences and results of this ministry, especially younger generation, should be of critical importance to the current authority in place, but they just toss those people like lab rats to the side, as if the experiment on them has failed, and they aren’t very good building material to be a part of the “Bride”. This is the time you start questioning your own sanity, and asking, “God, where are You?”! Why are these men get to use such beautiful and loving name and create such a devastating group? Your answers to these questions maybe as good as mine, “they are so spiritual minded, they are no earthly good”! When the salt loses its flavor, it’s not good for any use. I suggest for the men that run this group, to spent some time in the first four gospels of New Testament, and see what and how Jesus while in this world expressed God, and what He did everyday that we have an account of in these writings. There wasn’t much mystical about it, and people loved him for it.

[aron]

I suggest for the men that run this group, to spent some time in the first four gospels of New Testament, and see what and how Jesus while in this world expressed God, and what He did everyday that we have an account of in these writings. There wasn’t much mystical about it, and people loved him for it.

To your last sentence. There was a lot mystical about it, I think. "You must be born again', then look at Nicodemus' reaction. "Whaaaaa...????" A lot of that. Very obscure, challenging, and then, "they were all astonished beyond measure."

But that's not what drew people, not obscurantism and word play. He healed people. He fed people. God's love for the world was on full display not in theology but in human action. That was the magnet. They endured the weird teaching because they loved him.

In the local church we just got weird teaching. As if that was somehow what it was all about. Someone started a thread here once, "Not many Christians know" and quoted all the sayings from WL like this. How he was the only one who'd seen this or that, or knew this or that. Usually it was either some warmed-over 19th century Sunday School lesson, or something he made up on the fly.

One time I googled "Witness Lee center of the universe" and it was amazing, what turned up. I think he must have given a message on this once, and it so wowed the crowd that he did it again, with different center! That went boffo, and he did it again! But they all contradicted each other! Didn't matter, though, as long as the crowd got a buzz.

[ACuriousFellow]

If there is a way to describe the situation with the local church of Witness Lee, I would apply this statement that I heard from a sermon awhile back, “You are so spiritually minded, that you are no earthly good”. I understand that this isn’t a Biblical text to expound upon or something that is or was said by Biblical author.

Ooh, perhaps James 2:14-19?

14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, "Go in peace; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. 18 But someone will say "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that and shudder.

Isn't Gnosticism also similar to the all of Lee's "too spiritual" mumbo jumbo?

[TLFisher]

If there is a way to describe the situation with the local church of Witness Lee, I would apply this statement that I heard from a sermon awhile back, “You are so spiritually minded, that you are no earthly good”.
I would also add in the Local Churches, Passive-aggressiveness tends to be a pervasive personality trait.
One would say the recovery is not for everyone. Yet when a brother or sister does leave, a change in attitude is transparent. An aggressive attitude.

[ACuriousFellow]

I would also add in the Local Churches, Passive-aggressiveness tends to be a pervasive personality trait.
One would say the recovery is not for everyone. Yet when a brother or sister does leave, a change in attitude is transparent. An aggressive attitude.
I feel that, TLFisher. They're very "patient" (i.e. passive-aggressive), but when you aren't "open to the fellowship" (i.e. willing to immediately drop the issue and get over it), then they aren't so "patient" anymore and are forced to protect "the flow of life" (i.e. put you out because you're ruining the good vibes by questioning Lee's doctrines).

[aron]

In the local church we just got weird teaching.

I apologize if my terms seem dismissive or disrespectful. I meant 'weird' in the manner that Jesus' "you must be born again" was weird to Nicodemus. It was new, challenging, strange, and difficult to process conceptually.

The forum is called Local Church Discussions and to facilitate discussions I shouldn't be so quick with terms that seem to make good copy. That may drive away people, instead of encouraging discussion amongst different mindsets. A discussion isn't a one-sided imposition of thoughts and values, or a debate where one wins and the other says, "We were wrong". Instead, it's a mutual learning opportunity. If I want others to learn from me, I have to choose words that demonstrate openness and learning behaviour.

[Unregistered]

If there is a way to describe the situation with the local church of Witness Lee, I would apply this statement that I heard from a sermon awhile back, “You are so spiritually minded, that you are no earthly good”. I understand that this isn’t a Biblical text to expound upon or something that is or was said by Biblical author. However, for those of us who have been in this movement, it hits close to home every time. The mastery and wizardry of Witness Lee to revolutionize the basic principles of application and reading of scriptures, (never mind the specific words of Jesus himself), and to punctuate and replace all tangible, meaningful things that pertain to every human need while in this world such as love, care, natural affection, friendships, relationships etc, with some life in the mystical realm as only a way of “God’s economy or God’s heart desire”, is a travesty and abomination!

Reading and seeing so many people struggling to cope with the devastating consequences and results of this ministry, especially younger generation, should be of critical importance to the current authority in place, but they just toss those people like lab rats to the side, as if the experiment on them has failed, and they aren’t very good building material to be a part of the “Bride”. This is the time you start questioning your own sanity, and asking, “God, where are You?”! Why are these men get to use such beautiful and loving name and create such a devastating group? Your answers to these questions maybe as good as mine, “they are so spiritual minded, they are no earthly good”! When the salt loses its flavor, it’s not good for any use. I suggest for the men that run this group, to spent some time in the first four gospels of New Testament, and see what and how Jesus while in this world expressed God, and what He did everyday that we have an account of in these writings. There wasn’t much mystical about it, and people loved him for it.

UnfilteredSkeptic,

Many years have I spent in the local church, under the influence of the “wise master builder”. I have developed an attitude of dismissal and almost to the point of modern day “Cancel Culture” when it comes to Christianity and others outside our group. Constantly and almost daily reminder’s in the writings of the ministry of LSM, plus countless voices of those around you, foster this culture of “who got it better than us?”. It’s only when you get out of it, it hits you like a load of bricks that there are people who actually got things to hear and consider, outside of this group.

In Proverbs 11:14 says, “Where there is no counsel, the people fall;
But in the multitude of counselors there is safety.” My realization that the people of LC, have abandoned this basic principles, and besides LSM and their lies, there is no counsel! There is no multitude, it’s ether Witness and LSM, or else! The safety net has been removed, and replaced by a barb wired electric fence, that as soon as you come near sounds a WARNING ⚠️ “You leave this ministry, you are leaving God!”. Although members of this movement will claim that there is a multitude of men in their midst that will often offer counsel, it’s the source of all of their claims and statements that stands out like a broken nose.

Michael Horton had an interesting quote, which says “Nobody goes to the Bible alone, but carries with him or her a host of influences. It is infinitely easier to distort the Word of God when we cut ourselves off from the consensus of other Christians across time and place.” There have been many posts here that document all of the things and writings, messages and talks from the blended, that precisely cut off all of the other Christians who speak today and those that came before. Why? Because it’s easier to distort, change, add and remove from Scriptures, when the people only have a single point of reference. You are correct on a lot these points you make, unfortunately the people in this movement have been trained to ignore all who speak to this issue.

[Nell]

UnfilteredSkeptic,

Many years have I spent in the local church, under the influence of the “wise master builder”. I have developed an attitude of dismissal and almost to the point of modern day “Cancel Culture” when it comes to Christianity and others outside our group. Constantly and almost daily reminder’s in the writings of the ministry of LSM, plus countless voices of those around you, foster this culture of “who got it better than us?”. It’s only when you get out of it, it hits you like a load of bricks that there are people who actually got things to hear and consider, outside of this group.

In Proverbs 11:14 says, “Where there is no counsel, the people fall;
But in the multitude of counselors there is safety.” My realization that the people of LC, have abandoned this basic principles, and besides LSM and their lies, there is no counsel! There is no multitude, it’s ether Witness and LSM, or else! The safety net has been removed, and replaced by a barb wired electric fence, that as soon as you come near sounds a WARNING ⚠️ “You leave this ministry, you are leaving God!”. Although members of this movement will claim that there is a multitude of men in their midst that will often offer counsel, it’s the source of all of their claims and statements that stands out like a broken nose.

Michael Horton had an interesting quote, which says “Nobody goes to the Bible alone, but carries with him or her a host of influences. It is infinitely easier to distort the Word of God when we cut ourselves off from the consensus of other Christians across time and place.” There have been many posts here that document all of the things and writings, messages and talks from the blended, that precisely cut off all of the other Christians who speak today and those that came before. Why? Because it’s easier to distort, change, add and remove from Scriptures, when the people only have a single point of reference. You are correct on a lot these points you make, unfortunately the people in this movement have been trained to ignore all who speak to this issue.

UnfilteredSkeptic. In order to continue posting on this forum, we ask that you register for membership. The moniker "UnfilteredSkeptic" is available. Send an email with your request to Reg4LCD@Gmail.Com.

Thanks--
Nell
Admin/Moderator

[HERn]

UnfilteredSkeptic,

Many years have I spent in the local church, under the influence of the “wise master builder”. I have developed an attitude of dismissal and almost to the point of modern day “Cancel Culture” when it comes to Christianity and others outside our group. Constantly and almost daily reminder’s in the writings of the ministry of LSM, plus countless voices of those around you, foster this culture of “who got it better than us?”. It’s only when you get out of it, it hits you like a load of bricks that there are people who actually got things to hear and consider, outside of this group.

In Proverbs 11:14 says, “Where there is no counsel, the people fall;
But in the multitude of counselors there is safety.” My realization that the people of LC, have abandoned this basic principles, and besides LSM and their lies, there is no counsel! There is no multitude, it’s ether Witness and LSM, or else! The safety net has been removed, and replaced by a barb wired electric fence, that as soon as you come near sounds a WARNING ⚠️ “You leave this ministry, you are leaving God!”. Although members of this movement will claim that there is a multitude of men in their midst that will often offer counsel, it’s the source of all of their claims and statements that stands out like a broken nose.

Michael Horton had an interesting quote, which says “Nobody goes to the Bible alone, but carries with him or her a host of influences. It is infinitely easier to distort the Word of God when we cut ourselves off from the consensus of other Christians across time and place.” There have been many posts here that document all of the things and writings, messages and talks from the blended, that precisely cut off all of the other Christians who speak today and those that came before. Why? Because it’s easier to distort, change, add and remove from Scriptures, when the people only have a single point of reference. You are correct on a lot these points you make, unfortunately the people in this movement have been trained to ignore all who speak to this issue.

Hi unregistered. Yes, please register as encouraged by Nell. I would like to continue reading your posts.

Best,

HERn

[TLFisher]

I feel that, TLFisher. They're very "patient" (i.e. passive-aggressive), but when you aren't "open to the fellowship" (i.e. willing to immediately drop the issue and get over it), then they aren't so "patient" anymore and are forced to protect "the flow of life" (i.e. put you out because you're ruining the good vibes by questioning Lee's doctrines).

Yes, if they're not open to your fellowship, there's the expectation you would drop the issue. One must be intuitive when to stop, because to push the issue will cause "the brothers" to become aggressive.

[Onlooker]

I feel that, TLFisher. They're very "patient" (i.e. passive-aggressive), but when you aren't "open to the fellowship" (i.e. willing to immediately drop the issue and get over it), then they aren't so "patient" anymore and are forced to protect "the flow of life" (i.e. put you out because you're ruining the good vibes by questioning Lee's doctrines).
I’ve discovered that the moment you tell those people that are seeking after you from Local Church, that I’m open to have fellowship about Christ and only about Him, without anything from the ministry, books or religious practices and rituals of Witness Lee, no footnotes or HWMRs, they will stop bugging you or just have an outburst of frustration right in front of you, but then leave you alone. It’s so sad to experience this, especially when you know what’s coming, by me being able to finish their sentences before they do. It’s almost as if it’s a robotic or prerecorded response, and then the lights go out, as if you just disarmed them! I know there are exceptions to these, and there are extreme zealots that will even assign you to Satan’s army, but those are exceptions.

[TLFisher]

Yeah, sure. Raise a kid. Tell 'em that every other denomination is deformed and degraded and that The Lord's Recovery is the only way. Make every effort to hammer that in so that they become terrified of "death" for every thought they have against Witness Lee. Teach them to devalue relationships with other Christians who follow the "low gospel." Now 99% of their deepest relationships are in The Recovery. Then they start finding out all the nasty things that you guys did. They have concerns and want to fix the problem with their fellow saints in The Recovery. What are they told? Some believers would rather meet in another place where they are more comfortable.

"If you do not like it here, you can leave."

Those of us reading ACuriousFellow's post who were raised in the Local Churches can attest to his statement. I know I can. One thing ACuriousFellow did not mention is there is a pattern of conditioning.
Having lived through all that , why would I want to raise my children in the Local Church environment? It's not healthy. That's why when asked if my children would go to Summer School of Truth, I declined. Though they think to be well-meaning, I didn't trust them to have my children's best intentions at heart.
Problems that exist in the Local Churches, those in the lead don't want change. It's been said by a late elder, "The local churches is not going to change for anybody."

[ACuriousFellow]

Have we discussed the letter from the co-workers (chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://shepherdingwords.com/pdf/North%20American%20co-workers%20letter%20to%20leading%20brothers%20-%20July%205%202019.pdf) that was written in response to Jo Casteel's letter?

I mean... I suppose it's pretty much the same thing as the "Special Fellowship" (https://livingtohim.com/2019/07/special-fellowship-at-the-2019-july-semiannual-training/) in essence, but I just wanted to make sure it's logged here.

[newman263]

Have we discussed the letter from the co-workers (http://chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://shepherdingwords.com/pdf/North%20American%20co-workers%20letter%20to%20leading%20brothers%20-%20July%205%202019.pdf) that was written in response to Jo Casteel's letter?

I mean... I suppose it's pretty much the same thing as the "Special Fellowship" (https://livingtohim.com/2019/07/special-fellowship-at-the-2019-july-semiannual-training/) in essence, but I just wanted to make sure it's logged here.
Thank you ACuriousFellow for posting this. When I clicked on the link "letter from the co-workers", I got something like: "Are you sure you want to go to this website (link-content fully shown)?" Then, as I advanced, warning after warning it is a malicious,dangerous, malware, etc site.

I stopped, retreated at this message: (Malware blocked. Site URL : juk.au9a3rqmvg.com Malware URL :juk.au9a3rqmvg.com
Potentially malicious activity has been blocked. However, you can still safely continue to view this site while using Browser Guard.).

My (naive) question is: Was this website link posted incorrectly, or has it since been somehow hacked/compromised by an external agent?

[ACuriousFellow]

Woah, yeah. I'm getting the same message now. Sorry about that. It worked at the time I posted it. Guess I'll have to find a new one.

Here's a link to the shepherding words website which contains the letter from the co-workers. (https://shepherdingwords.com/letter-from-the-co-workers-7-5-19-and-ministry-excerpts/)

Unless something happens to their website, this new link should work fine.

[newman263]

it works, thanks.

[TLFisher]

Woah, yeah. I'm getting the same message now. Sorry about that. It worked at the time I posted it. Guess I'll have to find a new one.

Here's a link to the shepherding words website which contains the letter from the co-workers. (https://shepherdingwords.com/letter-from-the-co-workers-7-5-19-and-ministry-excerpts/)

Unless something happens to their website, this new link should work fine.
Much like the public correspondence between the Concerned brothers and the Blended brothers from 15 years ago or so, I find the Blended brothers speaking in circles and not answering questions that requires answers. That was the case then as it is now.

[TLFisher]

On the FB page:
Here’s a direct quote from Brother Lee regarding not receiving mental health help. I also find this statement to be sexist:

“Most young women are sick either emotionally or mentally. No psychiatrist can help them. However, if you live the church life, the very Christ whom you offer to God will heal you. He is better than any psychiatrist. Do not go to a psychiatrist—come to Christ and offer Him to God. Then you will be healthy, sober, and emotionally balanced.” (Witness Lee, Life Study of Genesis, Volume 2, Message 32, Anaheim, CA, 1975, page 431).

I find it to be sexist as well. Most men raised in the local churches are likely in denial regarding their youth. Just as equally "most young men are sick either emotionally or mentally". From a man's point of view if you were raised in the local churches during your teen years, there is a high probability, they suffered some form of dysfunction emotionally or mentally. Don't put it all on the sisters. I place it all on parents and the local church culture. Too much peer pressure and expectation of conformity.

[TLFisher]

This is the M.O. of elders, co-workers etc when confronted with questions, criticisms, etc. Whether it be Harvest House, Steve Isitt, or direct personal interactions. No response. This is what I have termed as bunker mentality.
What do I intend to convey in the phrase "bunker mentality"?
Silence when confronted with questions, critique, etc?
Silence is a means of maintaining control. It is avoidance of accountability.
When the period of silence is over. That is when "bunker mentality" comes ceases and leading ones come out of their "bunker" Next, you can expect "blame-shifting" message/communication to happen.
Is not that a fact what happened to Jo Casteel? The brothers leveraged "blame-shifting" in their "special meeting" of fellowship regarding her open letter?
Ironically "silence when confronted with questions" along with "blame-shifting" are traits, (but not the only traits" you can find in a narcissist.