Publication Work in The Lord's Recovery aka The One Publication

[UntoHim]

As Posted At:
http://www.lsm.org/onepublication/

PUBLICATION WORK
IN THE LORD’S RECOVERY


Through Brother Lee’s fellowship over the years, we have long realized that there should be one publication among us. The one publication is not only a testimony of our oneness in the Body but also a safeguard for the unique ministry in the Lord’s recovery. Without one publication, there is no way to preserve the integrity of the Lord’s ministry among us, which is crucial to the practical oneness among the local churches. Brother Lee gave this word of testimony on this crucial matter in the Lord’s recovery:

When we were on mainland China, only Brother Nee had a publication, and the Gospel Room belonged solely and uniquely to him. He asked me to help in the publication work. I did write some books, among which were a book on the genealogy of Christ, a translation of part of Pember’s Earth’s Earliest Ages, and some books on the kingdom of the heavens. I never published anything by myself. I always mailed my manuscript to the Gospel Room, which was under Brother Nee and his helper. It was up to their discernment whether my manuscript should be published or not. I liked to have my writings checked as to whether there might be some inaccuracy in the truth. It is not a small matter to write a book that expounds the kingdom of the heavens. I liked my material to pass through their checking. This helped and protected me. Brother Yu, the eye specialist, translated some of the mystical books, but he did not publish anything. We only had one publication. Everything was published through Brother Nee’s Gospel Room because the publication is really the trumpeting. The sounding of our trumpet is not just in the verbal message but more in the publication. (Elders’ Training, Book 8: The Life-pulse of the Lord’s Present Move, pp. 161-162. See the larger context of this quotation in the attached ministry portions.)

According to the practice established by Brother Nee in China, the one publication has always been trumpeted by one practical publication endeavor—in Brother Nee’s day by his Gospel Room, during Brother Lee’s years after he left mainland China by Taiwan Gospel Book Room, and during his years in the United States by Living Stream Ministry. Today we must be diligent to continue this practice of the trumpeting in the one publication in a practical way through the publication service of Living Stream Ministry and Taiwan Gospel Book Room. Living Stream Ministry and Taiwan Gospel Book Room publish both the past ministry that was delivered to us by Brother Nee and Brother Lee and the ongoing, up-to-date speaking that comes out of the fellowship of the blended co-workers and is based on the ministry materials of Brother Lee and Brother Nee. These are the materials that have been used regularly in the church life in the Lord’s recovery, and these constitute the one publication among us today.

When Brother Lee was among us, he took the lead in both the ministry and the publication work. As he released the Lord’s ministry to the churches, he directed Living Stream Ministry and Taiwan Gospel Book Room to publish that ministry throughout the churches so that the saints everywhere could be kept in the up-to-date fellowship of the one ministry. Because the ministry was released originally in either English or Chinese, he formed Living Stream Ministry and Taiwan Gospel Book Room as publication offices that would carry out the practical service of publishing the ministry for the churches. Today, by the Lord’s mercy, the ministry continues. Now it is carried out by fellow slaves who serve in a blended way according to Brother Lee’s realization and fellowship shortly before he went to be with the Lord. He called this “the Lord’s sovereign provision for His Body, and the up-to-date way to fulfill His ministry” (A Letter of Fellowship with Thanks, March 24, 1997). It is important to note that Brother Lee spoke directly about the continuation of the ministry among us. He felt that after his departure the ministry should be carried out by a group of co-workers who are blended, just as his own service in the ministry was under his coordination with the co-workers. Further, the need to publish the ongoing ministry still exists, and to this end Living Stream Ministry and Taiwan Gospel Book Room, a blended service overseen by a group of blended brothers who serve in coordination with the blended co-workers, continue to publish the Lord’s speaking among us in all the seven annual “feasts” and the weekly ministry meetings. In a meeting with the brothers to whom he committed the responsibility for Living Stream Ministry, Brother Lee said, “My burden is for the recovery based on the interpretation of Brother Nee and me. I am the continuation of Brother Nee; I would like to have a continuation of me, and this needs a corporation...The Living Stream corporation will continue this ministry” (from unpublished notes of a meeting of Living Stream, July 12, 1996). He placed the direction of this corporation for the continuation and publication of the ministry in the hands of a group of blended brothers, who labor to fulfill this charge before the Lord.

What Living Stream Ministry and Taiwan Gospel Book Room do, as set forth in the Living Stream’s Articles of Incorporation, is “to promote the enlightenment and revelation regarding the Bible as interpreted by the teachings of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee.” It was Brother Lee’s express wish that Living Stream Ministry and Taiwan Gospel Book Room would be the sole publishers of his and Brother Nee’s ministry. According to this wish and arrangement, Living Stream Ministry and Taiwan Gospel Book Room should be responsible for the publication of the ministry materials of these two brothers, and any use of Brother Lee’s materials or of The Collected Works of Watchman Nee should be done in coordination with Living Stream Ministry and Taiwan Gospel Book Room, and only with their express permission, according to their guidelines, and in proper fellowship with them. This includes the translation of these materials into any language as well as any republication in any form or through any medium. Further, Living Stream Ministry and Taiwan Gospel Book Room also publish the ongoing ministry in the Lord’s recovery as the extension of the ministry of these two brothers. The ongoing ministry is carried out according to the fellowship of blended co-workers and is based on outlines compiled from Brother Lee’s and Brother Nee’s ministry materials. As has been apparent to all the saints everywhere, this labor produces the same ministry with the same taste as has been enjoyed in all the churches since Brother Nee’s time. The up-to-date speaking among us is published primarily in the outlines of the messages for the seven “feasts,” The Holy Word for Morning Revival, and The Ministry magazine by Living Stream Ministry and in corresponding publications by Taiwan Gospel Book Room. In addition, Living Stream Ministry and Taiwan Gospel Book Room publish works that support the Lord’s ministry. There are a number of publications which Brother Lee initiated that fall into this category, most notably the journal Affirmation & Critique, which presents the truths of the Lord’s recovery to an academically-trained audience as we have received them from Brother Lee. As much as possible, Living Stream Ministry and Taiwan Gospel Book Room avoid venturing into other kinds of publications, but according to Brother Lee’s own example, occasionally there may be publications of these other kinds which Living Stream Ministry and Taiwan Gospel Book Room feel to publish either under their own names or under special imprints that serve particular publication needs. For example, Living Stream Books (as opposed to Living Stream Ministry) publishes God’s Plan of Redemption by Mary E. McDonough, and A&C Press publishes a translation from French of a scholarly study on deification in the early church.

At times there may be writings among us that could be considered for publication as part of the one publication among us. As Brother Lee points out in the quote from Elders’ Training, Book above, these proposals should be “checked as to whether there might be some inaccuracy in the truth.” Discernment must always be exercised when expressing matters related to the divine truth, the divine life, and the gospel. The exercise of this sort of discernment not only protects the teaching among us and the spiritual supply to the saints; it also helps and protects those who endeavor to write. Hence, it is proper that those who endeavor to write in this way bring their work to those who take the lead in the ministry and those who take the lead in the publication work, and those who take the lead should exercise the discernment as to whether or not such proposals should be published as part of the one publication. This was the practice when Brother Nee took the lead in the ministry and in the publication work in China, and it was our practice when Brother Lee took the lead in the ministry and in the publication work among us. It should be our continued practice today. Thus, those who wish to write in this way should bring their proposals to the blended co-workers as well as to Living Stream Ministry and Taiwan Gospel Book Room and have their proposals checked to see whether they should be published or not. In every way, this practice of passing everything that we publish through a discerning check is best for all of us and best for the sounding of the one trumpet in the Lord’s recovery today.

We all must realize that the one publication in the Lord’s recovery is quite a serious matter. Anyone who participates in it must genuinely have the portion from the Lord to do so, and this portion should be easily recognizable to the churches and affirmed by those who take the lead in the ministry and those who take the lead in the publication work. No one can take up this portion in the Lord’s recovery on his own. While we all have a basic right to publish, in the Lord’s recovery we are governed by the higher vision of serving under the cross in a blended way in the Body, especially when it affects the churches and the dear saints everywhere. Since Brother Nee’s day we in the Lord’s recovery have been “restricted in one publication” (Elders’ Training, p. 161), and this restriction has resulted in one testimony among us. For decades we all have been nurtured and richly supplied by the one publication. The benefits of being restricted in one publication can hardly be denied.

But being restricted in the one publication does not mean, and has never meant, that individual churches are not free to produce and distribute materials for their local needs. We have always had publications like this among us, and there have generally been no problems related to these. Songbooks, local tracts, church meeting outlines, testimonies, etc., have long been produced among us without controversy. These are actually not part of the one publication among us in that they do not involve all the churches. These are publications that address local needs. Problems can be caused, however, when these local and non-permanent publications gain larger geographical status. Further, it is particularly problematic when new technologies, such as the Internet, are used to distribute these local publications. The elders should take special care to assure that what is produced for their local churches remains a local matter. Otherwise, damage may result. Although technologies now exist that permit the easy dissemination of material, we should not use these technologies at the risk of causing confusion among the saints and of damaging the one accord among the churches. The elders and saints everywhere should exercise the same caution that Brother Lee spoke of when he testified concerning the one publication in mainland China: all the saints and all the churches everywhere should similarly be restricted in one publication in the Lord’s recovery.

Technology today allows almost any individual to publish whatever he or she desires, and it should not be the intention of the responsible ones in the Lord’s recovery to suppress the rights of individuals to express themselves (unless, of course, such expressions are sinful, heretical, or divisive). Some saints have a desire to write church histories, to produce children’s materials, to record music, and even to give and publish messages. Without much effort these can be reproduced in a variety of media and distributed widely, especially on the Internet and on CDs and DVDs. But the fact that these publications can be produced and distributed should not give them any more credence among the churches than anything else that can be published today, secular or religious. These are simply other publications that our brothers and sisters may or may not be interested in. They are not part of the one publication in the Lord’s recovery, and they are not necessarily beneficial to the spiritual good of the saints among us. The churches, through the elders, should be educated to understand this, and the saints and the churches need to discern the value of these publications for themselves. As shepherds of the flock of God (1 Pet. 5:2), the elders everywhere should have a proper care for the churches with regard to publications, and they should guard the flock from things that could cause damage (Acts 20:28-29). As long as the churches do not become platforms for the dissemination of these publications, these publications should not become matters of issue among us.

Finally, all the churches and saints everywhere must understand that the matter of one publication is not a matter of the common faith but something related to the one ministry in the Lord’s recovery. The ministry is the sounding of the trumpet among us in the Lord’s recovery, and there should be no uncertain sounding of this trumpet, as Brother Lee has mentioned on a number of occasions. However, the one publication should not become the basis of our accepting or rejecting any persons in the communion of faith or in the fellowship of the churches; it should not be insisted on as an item of the faith. If any are not inclined to be restricted in one publication, these ones are still our brothers; they are still in the genuine local churches. We would like to conclude with these words from our Brother Lee and wish to recommend that the full context of his words be read from Elders’ Training, Book 7: One Accord for the Lord’s Move, pp. 74-75:

Whether or not a certain church takes the ministry does not decide whether that church is a genuine local church. The title of this message does not say “no uncertain sounding of the trumpet in the Lord’s recovery” but “in the Lord’s ministry.” I am not talking about something in the Lord’s recovery, but I am talking about the ministry...

I have to be faithful to the Lord, faithful to so many of you who have been very much affected by this ministry, and faithful to myself. For this reason, this ministry cannot allow anyone to pretend to be in it and yet still say something different. This does not mean that I ask you to stay away from your local church or that your local church is no longer a local church. What I am fellowshipping about is the impact of the ministry for the fighting of the Lord’s interest in His recovery.

The blended co-workers in the Lord’s recovery
June 30, 2005


Ministry Portions


BEING RESTRICTED IN ONE PUBLICATION

One thing that has caused the Lord’s recovery trouble is the fact that we have different publications. If we mean business for the Lord’s recovery, we must avoid any kind of involvement in problems. When we were on mainland China, only Brother Nee had a publication, and the Gospel Room belonged solely and uniquely to him. He asked me to help in the publication work. I did write some books, among which were a book on the genealogy of Christ, a translation of part of Pember’s Earth’s Earliest Ages, and some books on the kingdom of the heavens. I never published anything by myself. I always mailed my manuscript to the Gospel Room, which was under Brother Nee and his helper. It was up to their discernment whether my manuscript should be published or not. I liked to have my writings checked as to whether there might be some inaccuracy in the truth. It is not a small matter to write a book that expounds the kingdom of the heavens. I liked my material to pass through their checking. This helped and protected me. Brother Yu, the eye specialist, translated some of the mystical books, but he did not publish anything. We only had one publication. Everything was published through Brother Nee’s Gospel Room because the publication is really the trumpeting. The sounding of our trumpet is not just in the verbal message but more in the publication.

I hate to see that some of the brothers would try to publish something by copying my points mixed with their “spices” and their “color.” Why do they need to put out some points from my writings in this way? Brother Nee taught us concerning the kingdom of the heavens. I received the basic knowledge from his teaching, but he never expounded on it very much; he simply gave a sketch. It was I who from 1936 began to expound upon the sketch given to me by Brother Nee. After I published my exposition, Brother Nee admired it and told me personally that it was very good.

I hope that some of you brothers would do much development and expounding of all the messages I give. Do not merely speak some points, adding your own “color” and “spices.” This changes the taste. It damages my messages. You must receive the ability to expound all these things. I am not narrow. I would like to see that all of you will be great servants used by God. How wonderful that would be. But I do not like to see that some would merely repeat what I have said, pretending that it is their work with their spices and color.

It bothers me that some brothers among us still put out publications. According to my truthful observation there is no new light or life supply there. They may contain some biblical doctrines, but any point of life or light has been adopted from the publications of Living Stream Ministry. There is nearly no item of life or light that has not been covered by our publications. Based upon this fact, what is the need for these brothers to put out their publications? Because all the publications are mine, it is hard for me to speak such a word. But I am forced to tell the truth. By putting out your own publication, you waste your time and money. You waste the money given by the saints, and you waste their time in reading what you publish. Where is the food, the life supply, and the real enlightenment in the other publications among us? Be assured that there is definitely at least one major revelation in every Living Stream Ministry publication.

I was burdened to publish the Life-study Messages to stress the matter of life because this matter has been neglected, missed, and even lost to the uttermost in today’s Christianity. In most of the commentaries and expositions there is not much of life. Even the term Life-study is a new term. I have used this term for thirty-two years. In 1954 and 1955 I finished a Life-study on the entire Bible, from Genesis to Revelation in Taipei.

This does not mean that I am so capable or so knowledgeable. It all depends upon whether or not our sovereign Lord has given you this portion. Even though I wrote some books in mainland China, I never dared to publish anything by myself. I do not like to have another sounding. Our sounding must be one, so we must be restricted in one publication. My intention in calling a writers’ conference was to encourage you to write something, but not in the way that came out. This fellowship may preserve and protect us from doing things lawlessly.

If some localities would have gone the proper way of the recovery, using all the materials of the ministry, their number would have increased greatly. Some are wasting their time by writing and publishing their own material. This is not their portion. I would like to see that many brothers had this portion with the riches of truth. This would be marvelous and wonderful, but this is our problem today. I advise all of you to take care of this matter. You have to swallow up the dissension. Do not let dissension eat you up.

I hope this fellowship will render some help to all the churches. Take these principles, pray before the Lord, and consider the real situation in your locality. Then you can make some adjustment of the eldership. (Elders’ Training, Book 8: The Life-pulse of the Lord’s Present Move, pp. 161-164, Witness Lee)

FULFILLING THE LORD’S COMMISSION
TO HIS RECOVERY

The Lord’s commission is His recovery, and His recovery today is to recover Christ as life, to recover the church as our living, to recover the enjoyment of Christ as everything to us, and to recover all the significances of the church life for the purpose of not only preaching the gospel but also spreading the truth. I believe that this is the unique reason that He has given us nearly all the truths in today’s Christianity. He has given us His truths for us to spread them not only to Christians but even to the unbelievers. The entire globe is under darkness. Every human being on the earth needs to hear the truth, but our spreading of the precious truths we have received has been strongly limited. There have been many strong testimonies concerning people getting attracted and caught by the notes in the Recovery Version, but who has the burden to go out and spread these truths?

Some brothers who are with us do not use these truths when they teach and preach. They teach and preach what they feel is good, yet they do not realize how poor their messages are. Some brothers among us continually put out some publications. I was honest to tell them that there was no light and nothing new in what they put out. The points in our publications are full of life and light, but these brothers would not present them as they are. I could not understand why they have to change the messages we publish to present something in their own style and in their own way. There are no new points of life or light in what they publish. Any life or light in their material is altogether adopted from this ministry. I have been observing this situation among us for years. I would like to see whether some younger brothers among us would be raised up by the Lord to speak something. If I could see this, I would praise the Lord. On the other hand, I have seen some who like to build up something around themselves.

The Lord has commissioned us with His recovery, and He has surely opened up the New Testament to reveal many dear and precious truths to us. What the Lord needs is for thousands of His dear saints who love Him, who live to Him, and who know nothing but His recovery to take one way. Regardless of whether the saints are from Brazil, Australia, New Zealand, Taiwan, England, Thailand, Indonesia, or the United States, we all bear the same burden, take the same way, and spread the same truths. We dispense the truths embodied in the “gold bar,” the Recovery Version. We have no other merchandise! If we would be like this, the entire earth will be taken!

It breaks my heart to see some practicing to have another ministry, using the material of the ministry. We all have to pray, “Lord, rescue me from my ambition to be somebody in the recovery.” We should only know the truths of God’s New Testament economy. We only use one way by one accord, prayer, the Spirit, and the Word. This is what I believe the Lord is after, and this is what we all expect in the depths of our being. Everyone will feel happy about this.

When we go out, we do not go in a dissenting or ambitious way. If you go out with your ambition to build yourself up and I go out with my ambition to build my ministry up, we are finished. The Lord has to go to others. We all need to go out in one way like an army. Then we will have the morale and the impact.

We do not need to do that much. We just need to go out with a pure heart, without anything to ourselves but all things to Him. Just go out with all the truths and the Recovery Version to read to people. I assure you that you will catch someone every week. You do not need to preach your teaching or your kind of doctrine with your terminology. We have to see what the Lord’s recovery is. The Lord’s recovery has been commissioned with a big enterprise to spread the Lord’s truths. He has given us the truths which we are holding. But we need the faithful, pure-hearted ones, who do not have any intention to live to themselves but to Him, to go out to spread these “gold bar” truths. There is no need for you to preach or teach in your way. Open up the Recovery Version and read some of the notes with the hungry ones.

Actually, though, I do not care that much for the increase. I care for the spreading of the truths so that they can get into the needy hearts. If we spread these truths, we will become the faithful servants to serve food to the Lord’s people at the appointed time (Matt. 24:45). Then we will fulfill the commission of the Lord’s recovery. This is where my heart is. I will die to this. I told the brothers in the Far East I will not stop until my entire being is exhausted by this ministry. I hope you all will say the same thing.

If the Lord can gain ten thousand saints in the United States to go full-time with one kind of teaching, one kind of preaching, one kind of material, one kind of publication, one kind of way, and everything one kind, this will be our morale! The wise way is that we all take the full-time way and speak the same thing, think the same thing, present the same thing, and teach the same thing, having the same essence, appearance and expression. Then we will have the morale, the impact, to defeat the enemy. This is what the Lord needs! (Elders’ Training, Book 8: The Life-pulse of the Lord’s Present Move, pp. 123-127, Witness Lee)

THE MINISTRY AND THE CHURCHES

Whether or not a certain church takes the ministry does not decide whether that church is a genuine local church. The title of this message does not say “no uncertain sounding of the trumpet in the Lord’s recovery” but “in the Lord’s ministry.” I am not talking about something in the Lord’s recovery, but I am talking about the ministry. The citizens of the United States may say many things to criticize the government and the commander in chief of the Armed Forces. But when you get into the army and become a soldier, you lose your right to say anything. It is possible to argue, debate, and even fight in the Senate, but even when the senators get in the army and become soldiers, they have to be quiet. There is no uncertain sounding in the army. The ministry is not like the Senate. The ministry is not a Congress for anyone to come here to express his opinion. The ministry has no capacity for that. The ministry is altogether filled up with a fighting spirit. I do not control any church. All the saints who have left the denominations, the divisive sects, and stand on the proper ground are a local church in their locality. They can express their opinions, but they may have nothing to do with this ministry.

Paul told us that all who were in Asia turned away from him (2 Tim. 1:15). The believers in Asia who had formerly received the apostle’s ministry now forsook him. They did not lose their status as local churches due to the fact that they gave up Paul’s ministry, but in fighting the battle, Paul’s ministry could not depend upon them. For Paul’s ministry they could not be counted on. To say that the ministry cannot depend upon a certain church does not mean that that church has been cut off from being a local church. It is still a local church, but we must realize that the ministry is a fighting unit. In this fighting unit there is no capacity and no time for your opinion.

I mean business for the Lord’s interest. I have sacrificed my entire life for the Lord’s ministry. I gave up everything to take the way of the Lord’s recovery. Now I must be faithful to myself. Furthermore, through my ministry on this globe, thousands of saints have come into the recovery, so I must be faithful to them. Many of the saints have given up high degrees to follow the Lord in His recovery, yet it seems what they are in is tending to be disappointing. This burdens me. Some of the saints became what they are in the Lord one hundred percent due to my ministry, and I do not want my ministry to waste their time. I have to do something to insure their investment of their whole being into the Lord’s recovery. They have given up their future in the world, but they cannot have much encouragement in the Lord’s recovery. I have to be faithful to the Lord, faithful to so many of you who have been very much affected by this ministry, and faithful to myself. For this reason, this ministry cannot allow anyone to pretend to be in it and yet still say something different. This does not mean that I ask you to stay away from your local church or that your local church is no longer a local church. What I am fellowshipping about is the impact of the ministry for the fighting of the Lord’s interest in His recovery.

Whatever I would say concerning the home gatherings, the full-timers, the truth lessons, and the spreading of the gospel is not for anyone who does not feel good about my ministry, who is dissenting to my ministry, who is pretending to be here under the ministry yet actually is not. I still love all the dear saints who may fall into this category and still count them as brothers in Christ, but we need to have an army full of impact, and this army has no capacity and no time for anyone to express any kind of opinion. We are fighting a battle. The army began the fighting already in Taiwan. Now we want to see this army increasing to fight the battle not only in the United States but also in Canada, in Central America, in South America, in Europe, in Africa, in Australasia, and in the entire continent of Asia. This is what I want to see. I am not talking about the churches, I am talking about the ministry. The ministry is one thing, and the churches are another thing. These two things can be differentiated in the Epistles written by Paul. Paul’s ministry is one category, and the churches are another category. Paul never tried to force all the churches to follow him in his ministry, but Paul surely had a ministry for the churches. (Elders’ Training, Book 7: One Accord for the Lord’s Move, pp. 74-76, Witness Lee)

© 2005 Living Stream Ministry

[Koinonia]

I would encourage everyone to listen to the following audio message: Promoting Reading the Publication of the Ministry Among the Saints (http://churchinbellevue.org/archives/promoting-reading-the-publication-of-the-ministry-among-the-saints) given last week in Bellevue, WA by Bill Lawson.

This will give a very definite impression of where the LC is today. Recently, due to flagging LSM book sales, LC coworkers have appointed a group of brothers to travel around the US (and elsewhere) pushing LC members to purchase more and more ministry publications--with an explicit view to selling off large stocks of books that have been collecting dust in LSM warehouses for the last number of years.

In this presentation, Bill Lawson gives an overview of some of the recent LSM conferences and goes through manipulation after manipulation convincing the audience of their need to buy more LSM products. An accompanied PowerPoint presentation can be viewed here (https://www.facebook.com/churchnews/photos/pcb.1287580527930525/1287578197930758/?type=3&theater). The same presentation is being rolled out across the country by the other brothers chosen for this task (who are all named at the beginning of the Lawson recording).

[least]

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!
for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made,
ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

[Freedom]

This will give a very definite impression of where the LC is today. Recently, due to flagging LSM book sales, LC coworkers have appointed a group of brothers to travel around the US (and elsewhere) pushing LC members to purchase more and more ministry publications--with an explicit view to selling off large stocks of books that have been collecting dust in LSM warehouses for the last number of years.

It's really sad to see how the LSM is attempting to disguise its marketing efforts. It's kind of ironic that they would claim there is a need to read more ministry publications, when that is all LC members do in the first place.

[TLFisher]

Constituting oneself with knowledge of an earthly ministry doesn't have a corresponding reality. Still when it comes to fellow Christians not meeting in the local churches, there's no capacity to receive non-LC Christians because they are not denominated by ministry publications.

[TLFisher]

It's kind of ironic that they would claim there is a need to read more ministry publications, when that is all LC members do in the first place.

I'm not so sure about that. In addition to the HWFMR, the publications seem to multiply. Even if you have capital to invest in the publications, who has time to read them all? They just collect dust. IMHO, money would be better spent on a genuine non-profit organization that has real community charity work.

[Koinonia]

I'm not so sure about that. In addition to the HWFMR, the publications seem to multiply. Even if you have capital to invest in the publications, who has time to read them all? They just collect dust. IMHO, money would be better spent on a genuine non-profit organization that has real community charity work.

LSM is adept at repackaging the same things over and over again in various formats. But really the whole enterprise is running out of steam. A flyer has recently been circulated among LC members that is titled "Announcing the Completion of the Collected Works of Witness Lee" (scheduled: 2018). Here (https://www.livingstream.com/cwwl/about-cwwl.php) is a corresponding website. It is difficult for me to understand how people can get excited about this...

The LSM online bookstore is currently featuring a softbound copy of the Recovery Version of the Ezekiel (the upcoming Winter Training will begin the Crystallization-study of Ezekiel). Of course, the Recovery Version of Ezekiel has already been published in other formats for years. But diehards will buy multiple copies of the single volume, I'm sure. In recent years, LSM has also experimented with gimmicky things like pocket versions of various Life-studies ("Dwarsligger (http://www.dwarsligger.com)" format), in an apparent attempt at providing tired (and younger) members with new materials.

The dilemma for LSM is that they have no good ways to grow (or even maintain) book sales figures. They are mostly limited to a captive audience of current LC members. Once they really do put out the Collected Works of Witness Lee, they will have no new material--other than new editions of periodical publications like Holy Word for Morning Revival and Ministry Magazine. So, they will be stuck pushing members to buy copies of the same books to give away to other people, as well as coming up with newly packaged formats of the same existing publications. You can already see this happening.

[Evangelical]

They are not that well written either. For example, the publications are not well written, nor are they written well. Repeat the same things they tend to do. So as to repeat the things they tend to do the same. However, in my experience, many Christians cannot read well, so repeating things the same is not a problem, however we should practice more.

[Freedom]

It seems to me that the LSM made two major mistakes with regards to its publication business. Firstly, they limited their publications to Nee and Lee. By doing so, they have limited the scope of what can be published and since WL has been gone 20 years, there is nothing new to put out. Their product is limited by the aggregate of 2 past ministries, and all they can do now is find new ways to sell an old product. They have have assumed that there will be a perpetual demand for such publications, when it is likely that demand peaked long ago.

The other mistake is that the market for LSM publications has already been saturated with existing LSM publications. Take any longtime member and they have likely purchased a good number of LSM publications and a Life-Study set. Thus, it is unlikely that they want to repurchase the newer publications, even if it is the latest CWWL or whatever.

It was also my observation that the younger/newer members did not see the necessity to purchase LSM publications except on an as-needed basis. So the all the publications that LSM might have expected to sell in more recent times have likely gone largely unsold. I think the practice of buying every single book that came out was largely a thing of the past.

[Koinonia]

It was also my observation that the younger/newer members did not see the necessity to purchase LSM publications except on an as-needed basis. So the all the publications that LSM might have expected to sell in more recent times have likely gone largely unsold. I think the practice of buying every single book that came out was largely a thing of the past.

This is very true. A lot of younger members now mostly use ministrybooks.org or certain officially released "epublications." However, many also use unofficially released (free) "epublications," which has become a major issue with LC coworkers. I have personally heard certain of them severely excoriate groups of FTTA trainees for using these.

[Ohio]

I tried to listen to Bill Lawson, I really did, but became exhausted after 15 minutes. So sad, so stale, been thru this for years. "HWFMR ... morning after morning ... but it's just like licking bar-b-que sauce off the chicken."

Really? Hold on folks! Wasn't that steady diet of HWFMR, excerpts from the most recent training, supposed to "constitute the reader with the divine riches for the building up of the body of Christ consummating in the New Jerusalem?"

Apparently it didn't work. So, buy some more books! Look, we're running a special. Collected Works. Order now and save 45%.

Their market is definitely drying up. Go to a campus meeting -- no one even carries a Bible any more. Got a smart phone or a tablet? That's all you need.

I'm starting to think that LSM quarantined the GLA and Brazil simply because their regional sales projections were falling off. Regardless of what you may have been told, the LC's exist only to support LSM -- attend their trainings, send your kids to FTTA, and buy their books.

My long-time observation is that the anointing on those messages is drying up. I read messages 40 years ago, and they were indeed anointed with holy oil. Not so today. Those same messages are dry and tasteless. It's not a joke.

[Evangelical]

Messages are not anointed. People are. If we use our spirit to pray and contact the Lord any boring message becomes full of life.

[Ohio]

Messages are not anointed. People are. If we use our spirit to pray and contact the Lord any boring message becomes full of life.

Don't people give messages?

And if any boring message can become full of life, then all of us would have remained in the dreaded denominations.

You are definitely conflicted in your assessments.

[least]

"HWFMR ... morning after morning ... but it's just like licking bar-b-que sauce off the chicken."
Really? Hold on folks! Wasn't that steady diet of HWFMR, excerpts from the most recent training, supposed to "constitute the reader with the divine riches for the building up of the body of Christ consummating in the New Jerusalem?"
:lol::hysterical::scratchhead::eek:

Not kidding!!!! Buy buy buy, listen ... multiple sets of tens of thousands of pages for yuor consumption. Another 20 years of HWFMR + HWFAR ... it'll be like licking bar-b-sauce + chicken skin. Then need mooooore boooooks, tens of thousands of pages + hundreds of thousands of pages and another 20years later of HWFMR+HWFAR+HWFNR .... THEN will be like licking bar-b-que sauce + chicken skin + a slice of chicken meat ... :D:D:D

[HERn]

I listened to the whole thing. My take was that it was nervously given with a worry that not enough books are getting on the members' bookshelves. Not once did I hear the word "Bible". I heard the word "ministry" countless times and the word "word" several times. The speaker equates the ministry or publications of LSM with the word, and the only two names associated with their ministry are Nee and Lee, although the speaker did mention Paul once. They say they are rich, but really they are deceived in that their reading only the publications of LSM keeps them in darkness, poverty and separated from the body of Christ.

[ZNPaaneah]

Look, we're running a special. Collected Works. Order now and save 45%.


If you really want to save some money wait for a year. When the Local Church book rooms clean out their closets with yard sales you can probably get this for 95% off.

[Ohio]

If you really want to save some money wait for a year. When the Local Church book rooms clean out their closets with yard sales you can probably get this for 95% off.

Hang out with a few older malcontents ... You might even get free delivery! :hysterical:

[Freedom]

I tried to listen to Bill Lawson, I really did, but became exhausted after 15 minutes. So sad, so stale, been thru this for years. "HWFMR ... morning after morning ... but it's just like licking bar-b-que sauce off the chicken."

Really? Hold on folks! Wasn't that steady diet of HWFMR, excerpts from the most recent training, supposed to "constitute the reader with the divine riches for the building up of the body of Christ consummating in the New Jerusalem?"

The LC is full of gimmicky promotions, but this one tops most others. What strikes me is how evident the current state of the LC is, yet members believe they are in the best place on earth. If the LC continues down its current path, it won't be long before LC members really begin to pick up on it. When a group bases itself upon enthusiasm for a certain ministry, and that enthusiasm is simmering down, it's only a matter of time before the inevitable happens. Perhaps the inevitable has already began to occur. Certainly, the enthusiasm for what Lee taught peaked long ago.

I think part of the reason LSM books sold well in the past is because people who were there in the heyday of the LC wanted to be immersed in what Lee was teaching. Therefore, buying all the books being put out, reading all the Life-Studies was more desirable during that time. I was around brothers who were always encouraging us to read the ministry, read the Life-Studies, yet despite that push, we never really were much enthusiastic to read more than what we had to. There was simply not much interest in reading LSM publications beyond what HWFMR the church was going over.

The LC has been in the U.S. for over 50 years. That has been plenty of time for any benefits of reading ministry books to have become apparent. But when members do what they're encouraged to do, and nothing comes of it, discouragement sets in. The next time they're encouraged to do the same thing, they know better, so they passively resist doing it. That is basically the root of the problem that the LC is facing. They cannot come up with any new idea to make things work better. They just keep rehashing the same ideas that have failed time and time again.

[Koinonia]

The LC is full of gimmicky promotions, but this one tops most others. What strikes me is how evident the current state of the LC is, yet members believe they are in the best place on earth. If the LC continues down its current path, it won't be long before LC members really begin to pick up on it. When a group bases itself upon enthusiasm for a certain ministry, and that enthusiasm is simmering down, it's only a matter of time before the inevitable happens. Perhaps the inevitable has already began to occur. Certainly, the enthusiasm for what Lee taught peaked long ago.

I think part of the reason LSM books sold well in the past is because people who were there in the heyday of the LC wanted to be immersed in what Lee was teaching. Therefore, buying all the books being put out, reading all the Life-Studies was more desirable during that time. I was around brothers who were always encouraging us to read the ministry, read the Life-Studies, yet despite that push, we never really were much enthusiastic to read more than what we had to. There was simply not much interest in reading LSM publications beyond what HWFMR the church was going over.

The LC has been in the U.S. for over 50 years. That has been plenty of time for any benefits of reading ministry books to have become apparent. But when members do what they're encouraged to do, and nothing comes of it, discouragement sets in. The next time they're encouraged to do the same thing, they know better, so they passively resist doing it. That is basically the root of the problem that the LC is facing. They cannot come up with any new idea to make things work better. They just keep rehashing the same ideas that have failed time and time again.

This is very insightful. When you look at various LC initiatives (and they are always coming), they are usually about trying to drum up interest in Witness Lee's books. Radio program, seminars, giving away books, selling books, translating books, etc., etc., etc. When interest wanes, there is not a lot left.

[Ohio]

I think part of the reason LSM books sold well in the past is because people who were there in the heyday of the LC wanted to be immersed in what Lee was teaching. Therefore, buying all the books being put out, reading all the Life-Studies was more desirable during that time.

Early books by Lee closely covered the scriptures, either sequentially or topically. As I entered the scene in 1976, we would receive a few messages a week on "standing order." At the time, the church in Cleveland was going thru Genesis. I found the messages very "edible," and easily carried in my pocket, so I could read them at work. Then they did away with "loose" messages, which made them less accessible.

Initially the messages met a real need in the saints. It was apparent that the ministry of WL attempted to "serve us." Then, those on standing order began to receive books at an overwhelming rate. Only the fastest readers could keep up. I went back to college and had little time for superfluous reading. Unread materials started gathering dust on my shelves. Then the same materials were re-released as "rainbow" booklets, then in soft-bound books, and eventually hard-bound in green volumes. Soon most of us only stayed with the standing order as a donation, and by the '90's most of us dropped out of the standing order.

LSM over time moved from Life-Studies to New Way Instructions to Crystallization Studies to "High Peak" to Blendeds Re-speaking, with each progression distancing the written page from the Word of God. Some where along that windy path I lost my appetite for all things LSM. In '07 my basement flooded wiping out boxes of un-shelved books, then a few years ago I gave away all the blue and green bound volumes. I never missed them.

Some of the brothers who were with WL from the early days have written how they had definitely noticed the anointing on his ministry wane over time. The decline definitely corresponded with unrepentant unrighteousness in the ministry. So it's no wonder that the long-time survivors would speak of those old glory days at Elden Hall. For most of us, the truth behind the "storms" of rebellion was kept secret, so we became laden with guilt that our lack of appetite for ministry books was our own fault. Actually it had nothing to do with us. The books now are mostly tasteless doctrines.

[HERn]

Another thing I perceived during Bill Lawson's pitch were tepid "amens". They were polite but noone seemed FTT enthusiastic. What Freedom posted about enthusiasm waning seems spot on.

[Evangelical]

Another thing I perceived during Bill Lawson's pitch were tepid "amens". They were polite but noone seemed FTT enthusiastic. What Freedom posted about enthusiasm waning seems spot on.

You mean he was not using his spirit.

[Koinonia]

You mean he was not using his spirit.

It could have something to do with his subject matter, too.

[Koinonia]

"Announcing the Completion of the Collected Works of Witness Lee (https://www.livingstream.com/cwwl/index.php?showModal=yes)"

In August 2018 The Collected Works of Witness Lee will be completed and made available in its entirety. This represents a monumental step in church history because it is a faithful preservation of the ministry that has been given by the Lord to His church for the growth and building up of the Body of Christ. Concerning this ministry, Brother Lee testifies, “It is a fact of history in the Lord’s recovery that any church which follows the ministry is strong and blessed. But those churches which neglect the ministry and try instead to do something on their own have become a failure...My burden is to produce groceries. The churches and the saints are free either to use them or to disregard them. But if the saints cast away the nourishment found in these messages, I wonder what they will feed on. We are what we eat. If we eat the ‘groceries’ produced in today’s religion, we shall be part of religion. Let me say in frankness and honesty that the leading ones need to take ‘these things’ and lay them before the saints that they may be nourished”

Possessing this set is a unique opportunity to preserve the priceless supply of the ministry with which the Lord has blessed His recovery through the speaking of the Spirit. We encourage the churches around the world to make this heritage available to the saints. The Collected Works of Witness Lee with the comprehensive index will be an invaluable resource for use in personal study, in home meetings, and in the shepherding and care of the saints. In addition, this complete set will provide a lasting legacy of the truth for our children and generations to come. Surely, this ministry is not for us alone, for in receiving it, we have been entrusted with a stewardship. “If indeed you have heard of the stewardship of the grace of God which was given to me for you, that by revelation the mystery was made known to me...by which, in reading it, you can perceive my understanding in the mystery of Christ” (Eph. 3:2-4). “The stewardship of the grace is for the dispensing of the grace of God to His chosen people for the producing and building up of the church. Out of this stewardship comes the ministry” (v. 2, footnote 2). “If you lay these things before the brothers, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, being nourished with the words of the faith and of the good teaching which you have closely followed” (1 Tim. 4:6). “To minister Christ to others requires that first we ourselves be nourished with the words of life concerning Christ”

[HERn]

"monumental step in church history"? Which church and by whose accounting? Can you imagine Paul saying his book of Romans was a monumental step in church history? Or maybe John about the book of Revelation. I doubt the name Witness Lee will even be known after 100 years much less 2,000 years. It's possible Watchman Nee will be remembered. Does the recovery think fhd writings of WL surpasses the writings of Paul?

[Evangelical]

Well Paul only wrote 15 books over his ministry period of 30 years. Witness Lee wrote over 400 books over a ministry period of about 50 years. Paul did not write sufficiently for us today. In fact Paul did not even write books to explain various things like Witness Lee did, they are just letters from which we must infer many things. The insufficiency of Paul's writings is evident by the prevalence of Christian writings today and Christian bookstores. Otherwise why would we need them? It is remarkable that some Christians think God, knowing that the church would continue or 2000 years after Paul, would not provide people with sufficient written resources to aid their spiritual growth, by people such as Watchman Nee and Witness Lee.

[Ohio]

I don't think WL ever sat down and wrote a single book.

[Koinonia]

I don't think WL ever sat down and wrote a single book.

Witness Lee may have written Watchman Nee: A Seer in the Divine Revelation in the Present Age, but that's about it. Perpetually attached recording devices and teams of volunteer and paid transcribers/editors/proofreaders/printers, etc., is not the same thing as "writing over 400 books."

[Freedom]

I don't think WL ever sat down and wrote a single book.

It's actually a bit ironic when you really think about it. Virtually all the LSM publications are transcriptions of messages that Nee and Lee gave. Along with WL's Seer, I think Nee wrote several books, though I don't recall which ones they were, but other than that it's virtually all messages.

The thing about a message is it's given to a specific audience. A book is usually written with a much larger audience in mind. When WL traveled to a church somewhere, gave a conference, how do we know those messages were intended to be applicable to everyone, not just to address a need with the church that invited him? We simply have no way of knowing what WL's was intending to accomplish with any given message that he gave.

And I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with producing books that are transcriptions of messages. I think there are plenty of such types of Christian books that can be beneficial. It's just that LSM has transcribed everything spoken into the written form and then published it, as if every single spoken message WL gave is universally applicable. That is mainly what I call into question. When LSM publishes a random book composed of messages WL gave at some point, how do we know that those messages are applicable to us now? Why should anyone feel compelled to read them? By contrast, anyone can go to a Christian book store or go online to Kindle and download a book to read, a book written on a particular topic, meant to address a particular subject, not based on some message given in the distant past.

[Koinonia]

Along with WL's Seer, I think Nee wrote several books, though I don't recall which ones they were, but other than that it's virtually all messages.

Nee did do some writing, but I believe the only book he actually ever sat down and wrote was The Spiritual Man.

[Cal]

I kept my green bound life-studies for a long time. They sat in the garage in a cardboard box for years. I guess my original idea that they were a good summation of the Bible stuck with me. Finally I just decided to get rid of them. It felt hypocritical to sell them so I put them in my car and went and threw them in a dumpster. It wasn't an act of contempt, just cleaning out the garage and moving on. I've never regretted it.

Besides, the strength of Lee's ministry was never in the details. In fact he often goes way off on the details, particularly about relationships. He was really always about the big vision and that can pretty much be summed up in one book or his Bible footnotes. Most of his stuff is very repetitive to the point of being superfluous.

Lee was never very good about practically applying the word to real life. He was always about life being an ongoing process of being blown away by big visions, being motivated by that to do things (attend meetings, give money), and then repeating.

What was essentially good about Lee's ministry? Basically to have a real intimate relationship with God, let that permeate your life and cause you meet with other Christians in unity and simplicity for the glory of God. That's what's stuck with me--have a real relationship with Christ and love and receive all believers, don't get hung up on doctrines.

The rest was just the details. Some was very good: Resurrection life, indwelling Spirit, glorious riches. But much was just superfluous and even in error: The local ground, mingling, metabolic transformation, spiritual authority, the Recovery, Minister of the Age, one trumpet, quarantining.

[Ohio]

I kept my green bound life-studies for a long time. They sat in the garage in a cardboard box for years. I guess my original idea that they were a good summation of the Bible stuck with me. Finally I just decided to get rid of them. It felt hypocritical to sell them so I put them in my car and went and threw them in a dumpster.

I gave mine to an old friend. He and his wife had a spat and she took all his green and blue books and threw them in a dumpster. :rollingeyesfrown:

[Cal]

I gave mine to an old friend. He and his wife had a spat and she took all his green and blue books and threw them in a dumpster. :rollingeyesfrown:

Maybe he lectured her from "the Ministry." :whack: Big mistake!

[Ohio]

Maybe he lectured her from "the Ministry." :whack: Big mistake!

She had an "allergic reaction" to the ministry "medication."

[HERn]

Well Paul only wrote 15 books over his ministry period of 30 years. Witness Lee wrote over 400 books over a ministry period of about 50 years. Paul did not write sufficiently for us today. In fact Paul did not even write books to explain various things like Witness Lee did, they are just letters from which we must infer many things. The insufficiency of Paul's writings is evident by the prevalence of Christian writings today and Christian bookstores. Otherwise why would we need them? It is remarkable that some Christians think God, knowing that the church would continue or 2000 years after Paul, would not provide people with sufficient written resources to aid their spiritual growth, by people such as Watchman Nee and Witness Lee.

"The insufficiency of Paul's writings"

Wow! That statement was an honest opinion that would never be uttered in pub!ic by the elders or LSM leaders. There we have it, God's inspired word, the New Testsament is insufficient!!

[Evangelical]

"The insufficiency of Paul's writings"

Wow! That statement was an honest opinion that would never be uttered in pub!ic by the elders or LSM leaders. There we have it, God's inspired word, the New Testsament is insufficient!!

So I assume you don't have any Christian books other than just the New Testament. If you do, then this proves that the New Testament is not sufficient for you. That is what I meant by the insufficiency of Paul's writings, not that they themselves lacked anything except deeper and further revelation which others could complete.

The Bible never says it was complete, nor does it say ministry ceased when the Bible was written.

[Cal]

So I assume you don't have any Christian books other than just the New Testament. If you do, then this proves that the New Testament is not sufficient for you. That is what I meant by the insufficiency of Paul's writings, not that they themselves lacked anything except deeper and further revelation which others could complete.

The Bible never says it was complete, nor does it say ministry ceased when the Bible was written.

There is the warning in Revelation 22 about not adding or taking away from the revelation. The fact that it came at the end of the whole Bible could be taken to mean "revelation" refers to the whole Bible.

The LCM has always flirted with the idea that Lee's teaching was "further revelation" almost on par or even on par with the Bible. That's the danger.

[JJ]

The concept of needing "the interpreted Word" from "the minister of the Word" came from Watchman Nee

http://www.ministrybooks.org/SearchMinBooksDsp.cfm?id=27062AC2C5

It was restated by Witness Lee

http://www.ministrybooks.org/SearchMinBooksDsp.cfm?id=260328CBC5

http://www.ministrybooks.org/SearchMinBooksDsp.cfm?id=260328CBCA

And in recent years, I witnessed "the blenders", coworkers, elders, and saints in TLR teaching that "the interpreted Word" is the LSM publications, and they are better than the Bible itself for guiding your Christian life and "church life".

That is one of the things that caused me to run, and run fast from TLR.

Paul considered that he was completing the word of God http://biblehub.com/colossians/1-25.htm

John and Old Testament prophets gave severe warnings about adding to or taking away from God's Word
http://biblehub.com/revelation/22-19.htm

That's enough for me to steal clear of LSM "interpreted word" claims, and warn others not to "buy it". Read the Bible yourself, rely on the Holy Spirit first, commentaries second.

[Evangelical]

If it is correct that we just need to read the Bible for ourselves and rely on the Spirit, then why did God give the church teachers? (Ephesians 4:11). It seems that teachers are not required if we just read for ourselves and rely upon the Spirit.

And why did the Spirit lead Philip to speak to this man:

Acts 8:30 Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. "Do you understand what you are reading?" Philip asked.

Acts 8:31 "How can I," he said, "unless someone explains it to me?" So he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.

Did Philip tell the man to "rely on the Holy Spirit first"? No, it was the Spirit who inspired Philip to help the man.

Reading the bible for ourselves without consulting others is a sure way to fall into deception. We need teachers and explainers like Philip to help us understand the Bible.

This is why we have Sunday School classes. We don't just expect children to read the bible for themselves and not help them understand it.

I know the hypocrisy of many in denominations today. On the one hand they hold just a copy of the Bible and claim to be led by the Spirit when they read it, not requiring any other assistance. On the other hand they gladly accept the pastor's messages (such as how to be successful in business etc) which have nothing to do with Paul's ministry, and when they say "give more so you will be blessed more" they are all too willing to part with their money so as to receive a "blessing".

[JJ]

Good come back. You have been well trained, as that example was cited by both Nee and Lee as the basis for their "interpreted word" teaching. Phillip's interpretation helped the Eunich to understand the scripture and turn to Jesus. But Phillip didn't tell the Eunich to put his scripture away. And, the Holy Spirit bore witness to both.

Dropping any one of these things (help from other brothers, written scripture, or Holy Spirit's guidance) is the problem.

I observed saints reading only portions of LSM without the verse references, dead meetings without scripture reading to check what was being said, and praising of Witness Lee and Watchman Nee and/or "the church".

[Evangelical]

Good come back. You have been well trained, as that example was cited by both Nee and Lee as the basis for their "interpreted word" teaching. Phillip's interpretation helped the Eunich to understand the scripture and turn to Jesus. But Phillip didn't tell the Eunich to put his scripture away. And, the Holy Spirit bore witness to both.

Dropping any one of these things (help from other brothers, written scripture, or Holy Spirit's guidance) is the problem.

I observed saints reading only portions of LSM without the verse references, dead meetings without scripture reading to check what was being said, and praising of Witness Lee and Watchman Nee and/or "the church".

It's not a replacement for scripture, we never tell anyone to put scripture away. Scripture always comes first.

[Ohio]

It's not a replacement for scripture, we never tell anyone to put scripture away. Scripture always comes first.

Just keep them so busy that they don't have time for anything but hwfmr.

Then don't allow them to speak from the Bible, only the hwfmr.

[Evangelical]

Just keep them so busy that they don't have time for anything but hwfmr.

Then don't allow them to speak from the Bible, only the hwfmr.

Still, because of the ministry material, a young one in the Lord's Recovery can expound the scripture better than an old person in the average denomination. Having the ministry material puts all the other churches to shame. And furthermore, the young people are capable to stand up and speak. In most denominations, young people cannot do that.

[Cal]

Still, because of the ministry material, a young one in the Lord's Recovery can expound the scripture better than an old person in the average denomination. Having the ministry material puts all the other churches to shame.

I gotta love you, Evangelical. You are giving me so much material for my comic strip MOTA! :lol:

[Ohio]

Still, because of the ministry material, a young one in the Lord's Recovery can expound the scripture better than an old person in the average denomination. Having the ministry material puts all the other churches to shame. And furthermore, the young people are capable to stand up and speak. In most denominations, young people cannot do that.

The Pharisees could make the same claim.

90% of the young people leave, and you get excited about the 10% who become Know-it-alls.

[ZNPaaneah]

Still, because of the ministry material, a young one in the Lord's Recovery can expound the scripture better than an old person in the average denomination. Having the ministry material puts all the other churches to shame. And furthermore, the young people are capable to stand up and speak. In most denominations, young people cannot do that.

Puts the other churches to shame? Are you even aware of what actually puts a church to shame?

1Cor 6:5 I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you, not even one, who will be able to judge between his brethren? 6 But brother goes to law against brother, and that before unbelievers!

[least]

Just keep them so busy that they don't have time for anything but hwfmr.
Then don't allow them to speak from the Bible, only the hwfmr.

No. That's only fmr. Just like licking the bbq sauce off the chicken.
Buy multiple sets of tens of thousands of pages, for afternoon revival, fnr, ...

[Cal]

Still, because of the ministry material, a young one in the Lord's Recovery can expound the scripture better than an old person in the average denomination. Having the ministry material puts all the other churches to shame. And furthermore, the young people are capable to stand up and speak. In most denominations, young people cannot do that.

There are all kinds of material available to indoctrinate young people if your goal is to fill them with theology. Any church could to that and they wouldn't need Lee's ministry to do it.

What most leaders have figured out is that doesn't work. What works is helping kids have a love for God and others. Inundating them with theology can just give them a false sense of spirituality--as it has done with (ahem) some people we know.

As for being able to speak in meetings, the LCM practice may teach kids to mindlessly repeat things they don't even really believe to get crowd approval. Not very healthy.

[Ohio]

As for being able to speak in meetings, the LCM practice ...


Initially, being encouraged to speak in meetings was only a positive, at least for me, because we were encouraged to publicly give our personal testimonies.

Later on the exhortation to speak in meetings was still mostly positive because, even though we used Lee's messages as a starting point, we in the GLA were encouraged to go back to the Bible for our truth and inspiration.

Repeating hwfmr with robotic amen's has little spiritual value.

[Drake]

The Pharisees could make the same claim.

90% of the young people leave, and you get excited about the 10% who become Know-it-alls.

Most of the young people I know have not left and they don't exhibit that attitude.

Drake

[Ohio]

Puts the other churches to shame? Are you even aware of what actually puts a church to shame?

1Cor 6:5 I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you, not even one, who will be able to judge between his brethren? 6 But brother goes to law against brother, and that before unbelievers!

Any shame when the manager of LSM gets caught with "interns."

Even our Prez took more heat than "The Office" for the same sins.

Perhaps the proponents of LSM on this forum will use the excuse that a ministry and its staff are not subject to the same standards as elders and churches. The apostle Paul, however, would differ. (II Cor 4.2)

[Koinonia]

Most of the young people I know have not left and they don't exhibit that attitude.

Drake

Even LC leaders say that 50%+ leave. And from my observation, the number is much higher.

[Cal]

Even LC leaders say that 50%+ leave. And from my observation, the number is much higher.

In fairness, the dropout rate across the board in all churches is high. I think the main problem is we don't encourage kids to develop their own faith. We indoctrinate them, put them on cruise control and avoid the tough questions.

I just teach my boys that God is real, he wants to be close to them and that they can trust him. I encourage good behavior, of course, but I don't preach to them. I think if they learn to love and trust God like David did, they have a good chance. "Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it." Proverbs 22:6.

However, because of the LCM's grand opinion of themselves and their methods they are more in the hot seat than others on this. Talk is cheap. It's all about the fruit.

[Ohio]

In fairness, the dropout rate across the board in all churches is high. I think the main problem is we don't encourage kids to develop their own faith. We indoctrinate them, put them on cruise control and avoid the tough questions.

I just teach my boys that God is real, he wants to be close to them and that they can trust him. I encourage good behavior, of course, but I don't preach to them. I think if they learn to love and trust God like David did, they have a good chance. "Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it." Proverbs 22:6.

However, because of the LCM's grand opinion of themselves and their methods they are more in the hot seat than others on this. Talk is cheap. It's all about the fruit.

In my neck of the woods it often seemed like hotheads were always promoted and rarely were held accountable. When my son thinks back on the LC experience, he remembers one event at a church camp that stood out. One of the boys was being a pain while playing unsupervised basketball, so he made up a story, told his dad, and blamed my son. Dad shows up and strangled my son screaming at him.

Hothead never asked the other boys what was happening in the game. Hothead never cared to reconcile or moderate play, introducing his son back into the game. All the other church kids were just shocked that junior had successfully deceived his father. I was not at the camp, but I assume that hothead had to leave "the fellowship" in order to intervene ...

Nothing was really learned there about relationships. I found out months later. Hothead was close friends with the leading elder, so there was no available recourse, and I know how they think, "kids need to learn a lesson ..."

And the "lessons" they learned?

[Koinonia]

In fairness, the dropout rate across the board in all churches is high. I think the main problem is we don't encourage kids to develop their own faith. We indoctrinate them, put them on cruise control and avoid the tough questions.

I just teach my boys that God is real, he wants to be close to them and that they can trust him. I encourage good behavior, of course, but I don't preach to them. I think if they learn to love and trust God like David did, they have a good chance. "Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it." Proverbs 22:6.

However, because of the LCM's grand opinion of themselves and their methods they are more in the hot seat than others on this. Talk is cheap. It's all about the fruit.

The numbers may be comparable, I'm not sure--although I do think the number that leaves the LC is closer to 90%. I've seen FTTA grads snap and give up the whole thing, even to become atheists. And that is something especially troubling to me--"church-kids" who become disillusioned often seem to have be so messed up by it that they are unable to get spiritual help anywhere after that.

[Cal]

And that is something especially troubling to me--"church-kids" who become disillusioned often seem to have be so messed up by it that they are unable to get spiritual help anywhere after that.

This is the dark side of declaring "Christianity" as "fallen, divided Babylon." If people don't think there is anything really positive there they can't get help there. They get stuck in limbo. Some never break out of it.

There will be an accounting for all these damaged people. Somebody will be held accountable. Lord help us all.

[Drake]

This is the dark side of declaring "Christianity" as "fallen, divided Babylon." If people don't think there is anything really positive there they can't get help there. They get stuck in limbo. Some never break out of it.

There will be an accounting for all these damaged people. Somebody will be held accountable. Lord help us all.

It is a thought provoking discussion and there could be several possible reasons.

I don't agree with generalizations but I don't dismiss the anecdotal out of hand either. I have some of my own, for instance, there is a higher dropout rate in America that I don't see in other places. Second and third generation often do not have the life changing experiences that brought their parents or grandparents into the Lords Recovery and still keeps them. The restrictions placed on the children in terms of television, dances, parties, and other activities considered worldly created resentment. Young people today have the lure of the world and ready made accommodation to sin right at their fingertips that we never had to deal with. There were individual situations like Ohio mentions.

I join Igzy in this sincere plea: Lord help us and the young people.

Drake

[Freedom]

I was born and raised in the LC, and as such, I got to experience some of the disconnect in discussion first hand. For example, my family was completely anti-Christmas, even to an extreme. So much so that on days where there were holiday related activities, we were pulled from school. As a kid, I obviously had no idea what was going on, other than the stark realization that I was different than everyone else. Moreover the whole attitude felt punitive. Us kids didn't even know what Christmas was, yet we kids got 'punished' for it in the sense of the social isolation. I've since moved on from the resentment, since what happened is over and done. The reason I bring this up ,however, is to illustrate just what happens when things are imposed as has been discussed.

Getting back to the subject of LSM publications, I believe that there is anecdotal value to this type of discussion. When WL started out, I think that people were drawn to him because he was perceived to be a gifted Bible teacher. Thus his ministry and publications had some sort of expository value to people who felt it helped them to know the Bible better. Somewhere along the way, a view developed that WL's ministry encompassed THE truth that everyone needed to be 'constituted' with. This was certainly my view of his ministry, and the view that was continually instilled in me. Notice that I'm not saying that his ministry didn't have any potential benefit. It's just the fact that the entire approach was wrong. Along with anyone else, if we were going to be encouraged to read WL's ministry, it should have been with a personal goal to be able to know and understand the Bible better. That was never the goal. The goal was to be 'constituted' with his ministry.

The end result is members, even young members, who can recite spiritual jargon but really have no clue what they are talking about. Maybe a lot of it is just harmless, I'm not out to judge, but I do see it all the time on places like Facebook. The more concerning issue, however, is what happens when all these people run into problems that they're not ready to deal with, problems that reciting spiritual jargon can't solve. Again, I'm not saying that WL's ministry itself is the dead end, it's how it is being utilized and promoted. It is my belief that the current LC approach to WL's ministry has ruined any positive benefit it might have had for the larger Christian community.

[Ohio]

This is the dark side of declaring "Christianity" as "fallen, divided Babylon." If people don't think there is anything really positive there they can't get help there. They get stuck in limbo. Some never break out of it.

There will be an accounting for all these damaged people. Somebody will be held accountable. Lord help us all.

This to me is inexcusable. Many workers / trainers at LSM actively desire to make their young people totally "wrecked" for Christianity. They would rather have these young people in the world or in a mental hospital, than have them in another Christian church. How pathetic is this?

This disease came straight from the top. The constant railing against all things Christian, has born fruit, bad fruit.

One of the things that surprised us the most, while visiting other churches, is this multi-generational faith. We often saw 3 generations of Christians in the church, with the grandchildren marrying and starting the fourth. What a beautiful thing!

Exclusivism truly is a self-destructive disease.

[Evangelical]

Initially, being encouraged to speak in meetings was only a positive, at least for me, because we were encouraged to publicly give our personal testimonies.

Later on the exhortation to speak in meetings was still mostly positive because, even though we used Lee's messages as a starting point, we in the GLA were encouraged to go back to the Bible for our truth and inspiration.

Repeating hwfmr with robotic amen's has little spiritual value.

You are talking about the difference between those who use their spirit and those who don't.

[Evangelical]

This to me is inexcuseable. Many workers / trainers at LSM actively desire to make the young people "wrecked" for Christianity. They would rather have these young people in the world or in a mental hospital, than have them in another Christian church. How pathetic is this?

This disease came straight from the top. The constant railing against all things Christian, has born fruit, bad fruit.

One of the things that surprised us the most, while visiting other churches, is this multi-generational faith. We often saw 3 generations of Christians in the church, with the grandchildren marrying and starting the fourth. What a beautiful thing!

Exclusivism truly is a self-destructive disease.

Generational Christianity is evident in Catholic and JW churches too. Actually the Mormons do it even better, with the power of exponentiation with multiple wives.

[Evangelical]

The Pharisees could make the same claim.

90% of the young people leave, and you get excited about the 10% who become Know-it-alls.

Even those stats would make any pastor in the denominations jealous.

[Evangelical]

The end result is members, even young members, who can recite spiritual jargon but really have no clue what they are talking about. Maybe a lot of it is just harmless, I'm not out to judge, but I do see it all the time on places like Facebook. The more concerning issue, however, is what happens when all these people run into problems that they're not ready to deal with, problems that reciting spiritual jargon can't solve. Again, I'm not saying that WL's ministry itself is the dead end, it's how it is being utilized and promoted. It is my belief that the current LC approach to WL's ministry has ruined any positive benefit it might have had for the larger Christian community.

How do you know that people don't have a clue what they are talking about based upon their Facebook post?

[Cal]

To me a test of your validity and sincerity as a believer is: Can you pass on your faith to the next generation? The cliche is that the preacher's kids are often the wildest. Witness Lee's son Philip was out of control. It's a real challenge that can be easily blown if you handle it wrong.

I went to an event where the writer of the book The Shack (soon to be a movie) spoke frankly about his life. His dad was a Christian worker of some sort, but one who showed very little love for his children. He was well-behaved at church, but abusive at home. It's a sad legacy that is repeated all too often.

There is something about we committed Christians who are parents that tends to expect our kids to be good Christians as a matter of course. This won't work. We need to be proactive in a genuine way.

My approach is simple and basic:


Love your kids.

Be holy, but not holier-than-thou.

Apologize when you've done wrong. Don't protect your image.

Be genuine.

Don't be a prude. Have a sense of humor.

Teach your kids the essentials: Love. Relationships. Prayer. Faith. Trust. The positive rewards of a life entrusted to God.

A little theology is okay, but don't overdo it. They will tune it out. Always bring it back to a joyful and natural relationship with God.

Always let them know that they are special to God. Teach them to be content and comfortable with how God made them.

Laugh a lot. Have a happy home.

Show them a life of sacrificial love. This where the rubber meets the road. This is what God honors.

Pray, pray, pray.

[Evangelical]

How your children turn out is not one of the tests for validity and sincerity of a person's faith.

[Drake]

How your children turn out is not one of the tests for validity and sincerity of a person's faith.

I agree with that.

I have witnessed model parents in the faith and by any standard terrific where some of their children turned out superb and others not so good. I have also witnessed parents who were not so faithful but their children turned out great.

There are many factors and at some point children decide and make choices for themselves.

Drake

[Cal]

How your children turn out is not one of the tests for validity and sincerity of a person's faith.

Jesus did say "by their fruit you shall know them."

But I wouldn't make it black and white. I agree there are many factors involved. But I do think it's hard for hypocrites to pass on Christian sincerity to their children. Children know fakes when they see them.

[Koinonia]

Even those stats would make any pastor in the denominations jealous.

Do you actually believe that?

[Evangelical]

Do you actually believe that?

No, I was being facetious, which is my response to a 90%/10% figure pulled out of thin air.

[UntoHim]

How your children turn out is not one of the tests for validity and sincerity of a person's faith.

True enough. But how your children turn out is absolutely one of the tests for qualification and fitness for leadership - At the very least, being an elder or a deacon. This is where Witness Lee failed miserably, and this failure was known by brothers and sisters in the Far East going back to at least the 60s.

This is one of the main reasons I question those who say there was so much "blessing" in the Local Church of Witness Lee movement at any point in time. Yes, God can bless whomever he chooses to bless, regardless of their spirituality, holiness, knowledge, faithfulness, etc. God knows that I am living proof of this. However, individual blessing is a totally different matter than the blessing, much less approval, of an entire Christian movement.

Witness Lee, and now the Blended Brothers, demand that every Local Church member fully imbibe (swallow wholesale) everything that came out of Witness Lee's mouth. Everything the man ever said is to be taken as manna from heaven. As a matter of fact, Lee's words are to be taken as the ONLY manna from heaven. This would be a huge enough problem if Witness Lee was someone qualified in person, character, education and reputation to be a leader of an entire movement - the fact that he was unqualified in any of these aspects makes the whole situation very sad and very dangerous for his followers. May God have mercy.
-

[Evangelical]

Jesus did say "by their fruit you shall know them."

But I wouldn't make it black and white. I agree there are many factors involved. But I do think it's hard for hypocrites to pass on Christian sincerity to their children. Children know fakes when they see them.

:lol: good response

[Koinonia]

No, I was being facetious, which is my response to a 90%/10% figure pulled out of thin air.

As I mentioned before--even LC leaders agonize over the fact that 50% of the young people leave the LC during their high school years (data based on a detailed "census" maintained each year in Southern California). When you consider the number that leave after high school, during college, into young adulthood, etc., the final number that leaves has to be much higher that. Almost no one I grew up with in the LC remains there. And sadly, there are very, very few among those who are any kind of practicing Christian at all.

[Ohio]

No, I was being facetious, which is my response to a 90%/10% figure pulled out of thin air.

If it wasn't so sad, I would pad my comments with numerous details and stories.

[ZNPaaneah]

Jesus did say "by their fruit you shall know them."

But I wouldn't make it black and white. I agree there are many factors involved. But I do think it's hard for hypocrites to pass on Christian sincerity to their children. Children know fakes when they see them.

I think we all know fakes when we see them. But some people will have a stake in pretending the fake is real, hence they fall into a trap. This happened at Enron. You know it is fake, but your entire net worth is tied up in the sham. As a result you become a slave of sin.

Children growing up in this environment can see it, but are not enslaved to it, so it is much easier for them to leave.

It is like Upton Sinclair said, it is very hard for a man to know the truth when his job is paying him to not know it.

[ZNPaaneah]

If it wasn't so sad, I would pad my comments with numerous details and stories.

Why is it sad? Got is not mocked. You reap what you sow.

[Ohio]

Why is it sad? Got is not mocked. You reap what you sow.

It is sad because I knew so many of these young people who have basically given up on the Lord.

[ZNPaaneah]

It is sad because I knew so many of these young people who have basically given up on the Lord.

God deals with us as sons, if He didn't we would be bastards. You get what you pay for. You want to inherit the kingdom, then you should embrace paying the price.

The standard swindle in the world is the idea of getting something for nothing, it is simply a way to swindle sinners enticed by greed and avarice. If you are not willing to pay the price for something then you don't really want it in the first place.

[OnHisPath]

So I assume you don't have any Christian books other than just the New Testament. If you do, then this proves that the New Testament is not sufficient for you. That is what I meant by the insufficiency of Paul's writings, not that they themselves lacked anything except deeper and further revelation which others could complete.

The Bible never says it was complete, nor does it say ministry ceased when the Bible was written.

Evangelical, I'm curious about this. If Paul's writings could be in need of "deeper and further revelation which others could complete", do you feel the same is true for Nee and Lee's writings?

The Bible may never say it was complete, but the LC seems to say that Lee's writings/ministry are complete and will end the age. Since the Lord hasn't returned yet, could there be more revelation, ministry and such from believers? I personally don't see any need for more revelation than Christ and Him crucified, but I'm curious your thoughts.

I remember expecting my first child and reading some of Nee's writings having to do with family and child rearing with my in-laws. We read a portion where it was suggested that the whole family should be involved in the punishment of children. After the parents had hit the children's hands with an implement and made them bleed, the siblings should be ready with cloth and water to help tend to the wounds. Kinda freaked me out a bit. As you suggested that Paul didn't write sufficiently for us today, I would suggest that Nee and Lee didn't write sufficiently for us today, either.

[Ohio]

I remember expecting my first child and reading some of Nee's writings having to do with family and child rearing with my in-laws. We read a portion where it was suggested that the whole family should be involved in the punishment of children. After the parents had hit the children's hands with an implement and made them bleed, the siblings should be ready with cloth and water to help tend to the wounds. Kinda freaked me out a bit. As you suggested that Paul didn't write sufficiently for us today, I would suggest that Nee and Lee didn't write sufficiently for us today, either.

W. Nee obviously never had children of his own. He spoke more from some ancient Chinese customs, than from the Bible.

And to think ... LSM regularly condemns Dr. James Dobson of Focus on the Family. Most of us had to read his books in secret.

[Evangelical]

Evangelical, I'm curious about this. If Paul's writings could be in need of "deeper and further revelation which others could complete", do you feel the same is true for Nee and Lee's writings? The Bible may never say it was complete, but the LC seems to say that Lee's writings/ministry are complete and will end the age. Since the Lord hasn't returned yet, could there be more revelation, ministry and such from believers?

Well they are complete because they are dead. It doesn't stop anyone else coming along and providing further revelation.

[UntoHim]

"further revelation" has gotten false teachers and apostles and their followers in a lot of trouble since the beginning. Most of the time this is because their "further revelation" is untethered from the plain words of the Scriptures, or sometimes the twisting of or misinterpretation of the plain words.

Still other false teachers and apostles claim to be bringing us back to the original or "recovered" interpretations/meanings of the Scriptures. In most cases, this term recovered is nothing more than the wolf of heresy disguised in the sheep's clothing of "further revelation".
-

[Cal]

Well they are complete because they are dead. It doesn't stop anyone else coming along and providing further revelation.

That's not what the Blendeds teach. They said Lee completed the intepretation of Bible. The age of spiritual giants is over, say they, the only thing left to do is follow Lee's teachings to a "T" and "build the Body."

Getting those standing orders going! Buy those books! :lol:

[Evangelical]

That's not what the Blendeds teach. They said Lee completed the intepretation of Bible. The age of spiritual giants is over, say they, the only thing left to do is follow Lee's teachings to a "T" and "build the Body."

Getting those standing orders going! Buy those books! :lol:

I disagree with that because there are still lots of verses in my recovery version that have no foot notes or where the foot notes are very light in specifics.

[Cal]

I disagree with that because there are still lots of verses in my recovery version that have no foot notes or where the foot notes are very light in specifics.

Well, that's what they taught, dude. Best deal with it and talk to them about it. I'm just the messenger.

[OnHisPath]

That's not what the Blendeds teach. They said Lee completed the intepretation of Bible. The age of spiritual giants is over, say they, the only thing left to do is follow Lee's teachings to a "T" and "build the Body."

Getting those standing orders going! Buy those books! :lol:

This is exactly what I remember. There was no room left for other teachers, ministries, etc. It was put forth very clearly that the LC was the complete and final package and the sole move of God on the earth.

[ZNPaaneah]

This is exactly what I remember. There was no room left for other teachers, ministries, etc. It was put forth very clearly that the LC was the complete and final package and the sole move of God on the earth.

Paul said he had not arrived, even Witness Lee said he had not yet arrived. I guess they should revise their RcV to say that they have arrived.

[Freedom]

This is exactly what I remember. There was no room left for other teachers, ministries, etc. It was put forth very clearly that the LC was the complete and final package and the sole move of God on the earth.

Earlier you mentioned Nee's 'advice' on how to discipline children using a form of corporal punishment. These kinds of teachings are the perfect example of why these ministries are not any kind of "final package" to be followed 'absolutely'. Unless LC members are willing to follow Nee's advice and risk getting arrested for child abuse, then it seems they are not really as 'absolute' for the ministry as they claim to be. This highlights a lot of the irony involved in the exclusive use of LSM materials. These kinds of things are still published by LSM and then read among LC members, and while certain things they (hopefully) know not to take seriously, they read these things anyways as if there is some value in reading them. I suspect that the only reason anyone pays any attention to such nonsense like this is because such things came directly from the mouth of the perceived Seer of the Divine Revelation in the Present Age.

Under normal circumstances, if LC members read something by Nee or Lee that they disagreed with, they should have every right to vocalize that disagreement. Instead, they are forced to read things that everyone knows won't be taken seriously, yet they have to keep the disagreement to themselves, and simply 'ignore' things that bother them. Valuable time is wasted reading things of little value. And I'm not saying that Nee or Lee's ministry have no value at all, but because an exclusive use of their ministries has been mandated, the things of little value are mixed in with the things that do have the potential to be helpful, thereby resulting in an ultimate watering down of any potential benefit of these ministries.

[Freedom]

Under normal circumstances, if LC members read something by Nee or Lee that they disagreed with, they should have every right to vocalize that disagreement. Instead, they are forced to read things that everyone knows won't be taken seriously, yet they have to keep the disagreement to themselves, and simply 'ignore' things that bother them. Valuable time is wasted reading things of little value. And I'm not saying that Nee or Lee's ministry have no value at all, but because an exclusive use of their ministries has been mandated, the things of little value are mixed in with the things that do have the potential to be helpful, thereby resulting in an ultimate watering down of any potential benefit of these ministries.

I remember attending a home meeting where we read a Nee excerpt in which he went on a rant about casinos/gambling. Obviously, among LC members or Christians in general, you would be hard-pressed to find anyone who would be interested in gambling or patronizing casinos. Therefore, the inevitable question arises, what is the value of reading ministry on that specific topic like that? Towards the end of that meeting, I felt a bit frustrated when trying to think of what I could possibly share as my ‘enjoyment’ from that reading.

In a situation like what I have described, I don’t fault Nee for having ministered on a topic of questionable relevance, rather I fault whoever haphazardly selected the reading material. Unlike Nee’s opinions on discipline children, I don’t find anything objectionable about speaking against casinos or gambling, however, the question in a case like this is how relevant or necessary the topic is. We mustn’t forget that the LC criticizes ministries that focus on subjects like marriage that are indeed relevant to people, however, whenever Nee or Lee went off on some tangent about something hardly relevant to anyone, LC members are expected to just read it without objection or complaint.

I attended enough LC home meetings to know that the part of the meeting where everyone’s attention started to become a bit strained is when it was time to read whatever the assigned material was. I think part of the reason for that was simply that everyone knew that there was little likelihood the reading material would meet any practical need. Again, the inability to identify with the subject of the ministry material at hand doesn’t necessary fault the ministry itself, but how it is being utilized. The LC likes to do everything in a cookie-cutter fashion. It is assumed that anything Nee or Lee taught is relevant to any situation at any point in time.

As far as I’m concerned, the root of the problem is related to how LC leaders have attempted to utilize and promote the ministries of Nee and Lee. I’m not aware of anyone on this forum who has claimed that Nee and Lee didn’t any positive aspects to their ministries. But the pressing question is why, despite the seemingly positive aspects of either or both ministries, that both ministries remain largely irrelevant and suspect to the general Christian public? I would say that by strongly and haphazardly promoting anything related to these ministries, LC leaders have successfully caused many people to see the questionable or irrelevant aspects of either ministry instead of anything potentially beneficial. At the present, it seems LC members are also beginning to experience the same kind of disconnect with these ministries.

[Ohio]

I remember attending a home meeting where we read a Nee excerpt in which he went on a rant about casinos/gambling. Obviously, among LC members or Christians in general, you would be hard-pressed to find anyone who would be interested in gambling or patronizing casinos. Therefore, the inevitable question arises, what is the value of reading ministry on that specific topic like that? Towards the end of that meeting, I felt a bit frustrated when trying to think of what I could possibly share as my ‘enjoyment’ from that reading.


IIRC, that message was part of a series of books, "Do All to the Glory of God," in a section on recreation and playing games. Nee felt we should never play games of chance, a very extreme view, and only play games of skill. He did not differentiate between casino gambling and home games, nor did he differentiate between playing for fun and playing for money. I remember thinking, "chess good, monopoly bad."

How could a family game using chance, i.e. the rolling of dice, be bad for Christians? Playing games is a great family activity, especially for Christians. It's real hard for old and young to play games like Scrabble together, and rolling dice becomes a great equalizer. Nee didn't think so.

[ZNPaaneah]

IIRC, that message was part of a series of books, "Do All to the Glory of God," in a section on recreation and playing games. Nee felt we should never play games of chance, a very extreme view, and only play games of skill. He did not differentiate between casino gambling and home games, nor did he differentiate between playing for fun and playing for money. I remember thinking, "chess good, monopoly bad."

How could a family game using chance, i.e. the rolling of dice, be bad for Christians? Playing games is a great family activity, especially for Christians. It's real hard for old and young to play games like Scrabble together, and rolling dice becomes a great equalizer. Nee didn't think so.

It is also completely impractical. All business decisions are a game of chance. All career decisions are a game of chance. Is a game of cards gambling or skill? Obviously gambling when you are looking at those who are addicts and have blown their life savings. Obviously skill when you are talking about Warren Buffet playing bridge.

Every year I have to decide what the best use of my time is for my students to get the maximum benefit, if I make a mistake I will find out at the end of the year. Therefore I use a lot of statistical analysis, almost on a daily basis, to determine what the best use of my time is. It is a gamble. Like all gambling, knowledge is power, the better your information, the better your decisions. Figuring this out is not that different from the process a Bridge player goes through in order to bid.

This was one of those things that WN taught that I quietly decided to discard while still in the LRC. Gambling can be an addiction, like alcohol, so it is better when you are talking to a church of thousands to be concerned with those who are former addicts. But, it is also something that is necessary and useful, so what you do privately, let each be persuaded in his own conscience.

[UntoHim]

Former Local Church member, Philip van Dijk of the Netherlands, recently produced this polemic regarding the One Publication Document.

COMMENTS ON THE ONE PUBLICATION DOCUMENT PRODUCED BY THE BLENDED BROTHERS OF LIVING STREAM MINISTRY ON 30 JUNE 2005
By Philip van Dijk
21 December 2016

The blended brothers of Living Stream Ministry's fixation with using only one publication, only one evangelistic method, only one gold bar translation i.e. the Recovery Version of the Bible etc. as a testimony for others outside the Lord's Recovery had becoming increasingly clearer in my mind and in my spirit after reading through their document at www.lsm.org/onepublication:
The following words are found in Paul's and Sosthenes' first letter to the Corinthians:
'... Now there are different gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are different ministries, but the same Lord. And there are different results, but the same God who produces all of them in everyone. To each person the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the benefit of all ...' (NET)
From the above mentioned passage these brothers revealed that there are different ministries (i.e. kinds of service) within the body of Christ and not that there is only one ministry as claimed within the above mentioned document.
The New Covenant Scriptures are completely silent concerning what believers publish in writing regarding their one faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
After rereading the document, I was immediately struck by the following texts, that had not struck me the first time when I had read it, as being indeed seriously questionable:
'... In a meeting with the brothers to whom he committed the responsibility for Living Stream Ministry, Brother Lee said, “My burden is for the recovery based on the interpretation of Brother Nee and me. I am the continuation of Brother Nee; I would like to have a continuation of me, and this needs a corporation ... The Living Stream corporation will continue this ministry” (from unpublished notes of a meeting of Living Stream, July 12, 1996). He placed the direction of this corporation for the continuation and publication of the ministry in the hands of a group of blended brothers, who labor to fulfill this charge before the Lord ...'
'... In every way, this practice of passing everything that we publish through a discerning check is best for all of us and best for the sounding of the one trumpet in the Lord’s recovery today …'


(1) What really bugged me after rereading the document was: Where is the Headship and the Lordship of our Lord Jesus Christ Himself in this specific recovery if it truly belongs to Him and Him alone?
(2) If the Lord's Recovery is, as our brother Witness Lee claims, nothing more than a burden based on an interpretation of Watchman Nee and himself, then is this recovery maybe nothing more than another institutional denomination, something this recovery of the Lord vehemently sought to depart from in the first place?
(3) Isn't an institutional denomination just another word for a corporation with a religious agenda and (a) human founder(s) other than Jesus Christ Himself?
(4) So, if all literature published by Living Stream Ministry is the sounding of the one and only trumpet for this present-day Lord's Recovery, are these 2 entities then not one and the same thing in reality?

There were more comments about the document that seemed more intriguing and insightful than I had previously thought:
'... He [Watchman Nee] asked me to help in the publication work. I [Witness Lee] did write some books, among which were a book on the genealogy of Christ, a translation of part of Pember's Earth's Earliest Ages, and some books on the kingdom of the heavens. I [Witness Lee] never published anything by myself ...'

Isn't Witness Lee only stating the obvious by claiming that he never published anything by himself? Watchman Nee had actually asked him to help with the publication work in the first place! Aren't these just basic circular statements?

'... I [Witness Lee] always mailed my manuscript to the Gospel Room, which was under Brother Nee and his helper. It was up to their discernment whether my manuscript should be published or not. I [Witness Lee] liked to have my writings checked as to whether there might be some inaccuracy in the truth. It is not a small matter to write a book that expounds the kingdom of the heavens. I liked my material to pass through their [Watchman Nee and brother Yu] checking. This helped and protected me. Brother Yu, the eye specialist, translated some of the mystical books, but he did not publish anything ...'

Here again, Witness Lee seems to be making more and more circular statements, for want of a better terminology. By mentioning that he (Witness Lee) then mailed manuscripts to Watchman Nee and brother Yu, because it was really Watchman Nee's publication, then claiming that he (Witness Lee) liked to have his contribution to the publication work checked because they (Watchman Nee and/or brother Yu) did not just publish anything etc. ...

'... We only had one publication. Everything was published through Brother Nee's Gospel Room because the publication is really the trumpeting. The sounding of our trumpet is not just in the verbal message but more in the publication. It bothers me that some brothers among us still put out publications ...'

Suddenly the publication work had become something far more than a publication work alone: It had become the sounding of a trumpet! Witness Lee even mentions that their (Watchman Nee's and Witness Lee's) trumpeting of the apostles' teaching had more prominence than their verbal speaking of the apostles' teaching.

But wait a minute, didn't Paul, Silvanus and Timothy mention in their first letter to the Thessalonians and didn't Paul and Sosthenes also mention in their first letter to the Corinthians
'... For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first ...' and '... in a moment, in the blinking of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed …' (NET)
that any trumpeting would be God's trumpeting when the Lord Jesus Christ returns for collecting His beautiful bride for Himself?

Regarding the previously cited sentence within the document:
'... In every way, this practice of passing everything that we publish through a discerning check is best for all of us and best for the sounding of the one trumpet in the Lord’s recovery today ...'

Are we having to make a choice between:
(1) the sounding of the trumpet as legislated by Living Stream Ministry and
(2) the sounding of the trumpet of God when the Lord returns for His beautiful bride?

Also, regarding the sounding of a trumpet mentioned in Paul's and Sosthenes' first letter to the Corinthians:
'... Now, brothers and sisters, if I come to you speaking in tongues, how will I help you unless I speak to you with a revelation or with knowledge or prophecy or teaching? It is similar for lifeless things that make a sound, like a flute or harp. Unless they make a distinction in the notes, how can what is played on the flute or harp be understood? If, for example, the trumpet makes an unclear sound, who will get ready for battle? It is the same for you. If you do not speak clearly with your tongue, how will anyone know what is being said? For you will be speaking into the air. There are probably many kinds of languages in the world, and none is without meaning. If then I do not know the meaning of a language, I will be a foreigner to the speaker and the speaker a foreigner to me. It is the same with you. Since you are eager for manifestations of the Spirit, seek to abound in order to strengthen the church ...' (NET)

Yet, the context of the trumpet in the above mentioned passage seems to be conveying that:
(1) just as believers are to understand (with their mind and their spirit) when a revelation, knowledge a prophecy or a teaching is being spoken, so too
(2) a harp and a flute needs to produce a distinctive note or melody and
(3) a trumpet needs to make a clear sound so that an army understands when to prepare for war.

Therefore, the clear sounding of a trumpet in this context does not seem to convey that the saints are called to be restricted to one ministry or even to one publication for that matter!
Even the word teaching in the above mentioned context is being referred to as a teaching that is to be understood and not that the oneness of the teaching itself is implied in this instance.

'... According to my [Witness Lee] truthful observation there is no new light or life supply there. They may contain some biblical doctrines, but any point of life or light has been adopted from the publications of Living Stream Ministry. There is nearly no item of life or light that has not been covered by our publications [Isn't this just a presumption?]. Based upon this fact, what is the need for these brothers to put out their publications? [Are we not free in Christ to do so?] Because all the publications are mine [So, it's really about ownership then?], it is hard for me to speak such a word. But I am forced to tell the truth. By putting out your own publication, you waste your time and money. You waste the money given by the saints, and you waste their time in reading what you publish. Where is the food, the life supply, and the real enlightenment in the other publications among us? [This is really going quite far, isn't it?] Be assured that there is definitely at least one major revelation in every Living Stream Ministry publication [Isn't this just a presumption?] .... If the Lord can gain ten thousand saints in the United States to go full-time with one kind of teaching, one kind of preaching, one kind of material, one kind of publication, one kind of way, and everything one kind, this will be our morale! The wise way is that we all take the full-time way and speak the same thing, think the same thing, present the same thing, and teach the same thing, having the same essence, appearance and expression. Then we will have the morale, the impact, to defeat the enemy. [Is this of the same essence regarding the oneness of the Spirit that Jesus prayed for before His crucifixion and which Paul appealed to in his letter to the Ephesians?] This is what the Lord needs! ...' [Witness Lee, Elders' Training, Book 8: The Life-pulse of the Lord's Present Move, pp. 161-164, 123-127]

What I have come to establish for myself is that in literally everything where one shared one's life in Christ, ministered His life with others etc. in the fellowship, one had to have it routinely filtered through the writings of Living Stream Ministry.
This filtering system had become the ultimate lockdown for me and eventually explained for me why my own previous attempts at discussing organic body life in Christ outside this filtering system were not being answered or were answered by answers such as '… go and read Witness Lee's Recovery Version footnotes, his Life Studies etc. about this …'
These dear fellow saints in the Lord's Recovery seem to have little individual conviction on what the Scriptures are revealing to themselves, but more specifically on the pertinent issues that I had questions on. This probably explains their regular reliance on the writings of Living Stream Ministry for having it revealed to them instead.

Philip van Dijk
Skype: philipvdijk
LinkedIn: https://nl.linkedin.com/in/philipvdijk

[aron]

'... In a meeting with the brothers to whom he committed the responsibility for Living Stream Ministry, Brother Lee said, “My burden is for the recovery based on the interpretation of Brother Nee and me. I am the continuation of Brother Nee; I would like to have a continuation of me, and this needs a corporation ... The Living Stream corporation will continue this ministry" The living stream ministry is a corporation.

If the Lord's Recovery is, as our brother Witness Lee claims, nothing more than a burden based on an interpretation of Watchman Nee and himself, then is this recovery maybe nothing more than another institutional denomination, something this recovery of the Lord vehemently sought to depart from in the first place?

The only way the interpretation equals the basis of the 'recovered' assembly is if the interpreter is given cosmic, oracular status. The interpreter is God's sole designated mouthpiece. The writing of the New Testament conveys none of this. In fact it repeatedly conveys the opposite.

And when God's so-called oracle is given untouchable status, the basis of the interpretation as being culturally-mediated seems quite clear.

[Cal]

And when God's so-called oracle is given untouchable status, the basis of the interpretation as being culturally-mediated seems quite clear.

One thing that always strikes me about the people in the LCM is that the way they use the term "Lord's Recovery" in an equivocating manner. Sometimes, apparently, without even realizing it.

Van Dijk brushes up against this insight but never quite gets it.

On the one hand Lee talked about the "Recovery" as if it is God's pure unique "move." On the other hand he talked about it as something he (Lee) should be able to control like a captain controls a ship. Certainly there is no precedent in the NT age for anyone to be given such power. Even Paul didn't have it.

It's one thing for a leader to presume to direct his church or ministry, it's a completely different thing for him to presume to direct God's very move. God's move is God's alone. He alone leads it and is entitled to change its direction, to appoint other representatives, to bless ministries, to raise up workers from stones, to inspire new insights--all without our counsel or even notifying us.

So for Lee or anyone else to say the "Recovery" should do this or the "Recovery" should do that is simply to verify that the "Recovery" is not God's move but rather simply an organization of human beings.

Van Dijk like many LCMers, despite his insights, still seems confused about this.

[OBW]

One of the biggest flaws in the logic and teaching of Lee and the LRC is that there is something called God's flow that is smaller than all that Christians are doing on the earth through the leading and power of the Holy Spirit.

God's flow includes every speaking of the gospel, from fire-and-brimstone preachers to simple homilies in any of the liturgical traditions. It includes the righteous living of His followers as they demonstrate something worthy of note in the world, even when there is nothing spoken. If Christians are in obedience, then God is flowing. In every thing that they do. From washing the dishes to going to the far reaches of the earth to evangelize those who have never heard of Jesus.

[ZNPaaneah]

It bothers me that some brothers among us still put out publications. According to my truthful observation there is no new light or life supply there. They may contain some biblical doctrines, but any point of life or light has been adopted from the publications of Living Stream Ministry. There is nearly no item of life or light that has not been covered by our publications. Based upon this fact, what is the need for these brothers to put out their publications? Because all the publications are mine, it is hard for me to speak such a word. But I am forced to tell the truth. By putting out your own publication, you waste your time and money. You waste the money given by the saints, and you waste their time in reading what you publish. Where is the food, the life supply, and the real enlightenment in the other publications among us? Be assured that there is definitely at least one major revelation in every Living Stream Ministry publication. (ELDERS' TRAINING, BOOK 08: THE LIFE-PULSE OF THE LORD'S PRESENT MOVE, Chapter 11, Section 2, Witness Lee)

I am glad that Witness Lee gave us a truthful observation, it does reveal what he felt. It is certainly judgmental "no new light or life supply there". I kind of wonder who forced him to tell the truth, because if we knew how to do that we might have found out some other things as well.

When I read his word "by putting out your own publication you waste your time and money. You waste the money given by the saints, and you waste their time in reading what you publish" I am reminded of the Lord's word "judge not lest ye be judged, for with what judgement you judge you shall be judged.

[Cal]

To me the Lee quote that ZNP just provided can be summed up simply as: "This is not God's thing, it's my thing."

[least]

It's one thing for a leader to presume to direct his church or ministry, it's a completely different thing for him to presume to direct God's very move. God's move is God's alone. He alone leads it and is entitled to change its direction, to appoint other representatives, to bless ministries, to raise up workers from stones, to inspire new insights--all without our counsel or even notifying us.


Yup.
it's a completely different thing for him to presume to direct God's very move. God's move is God's alone.

[aron]

(2) If the Lord's Recovery is, as our brother Witness Lee claims, nothing more than a burden based on an interpretation of Watchman Nee and himself, then is this recovery maybe nothing more than another institutional denomination, something this recovery of the Lord vehemently sought to depart from in the first place?

If the Lord's Recovery is a burden based on an interpretation, what happens when I come along with another interpretation, like the ekklesia was so local that it was a meeting? There was not 'non-gathered' ekklesia? It could be dispersed? There could be ekklesia in homes, boats, on mountaintops, several or even hundreds simultaneously occurring in one single large metropolitan city? What happens if I or anyone else for that matter has a revelation from God's word?

But it wasn't the Revelation of Nee. So it doesn't count. All of which shows that indeed the Lord's Recovery is based on one man's interpretation. One man's interpretation, another man's marketing of that interpretation, and a corporation claiming sovereignty over the marketing of that interpretation.

[ZNPaaneah]

When Paul writes about the gifts of the members of the Body, he begins by speaking of “dumb idols.” … In verse 2 Paul reminds them that when they were of the nations, of the Gentiles, they were “led away to dumb idols.” Here Paul does not say they were led away to sins, lusts, or the world; he says that they were led away to dumb idols, in whatever way they were led. No matter by what way they were led, they were led to dumb idols. Paul's use of the adjective “dumb” implies that both the idols and those who worship them are dumb, unable to speak…. But after coming to believe in Christ, they are now worshippers of the living God.

It is by speaking that we prove that we are living. Our God is living. The Bible reveals that our living God is the speaking God. Throughout the centuries, especially in this New Testament age, God has been speaking…. Because the God whom we worship is the living and speaking God, we also speak and thereby prove that we are the living members of the Body of Christ. (Witness Lee, Life-Study of 1 Corinthians, Chapter 57, Section 2)

This doctrine of "one trumpet" is merely the leading the saints away to dumb idols.

[Cal]

The fact that Lee tried to lead the "Recovery" proves the "Recovery" was just his movement. The "Recovery" is not God's move. If it was, no one would be trying to lead it but God.

Note the history of the "Recovery" as told by Lee: God raised up people in his good time to "recover" certain truths. But in all instances prior to Nee and Lee, these people did not consider themselves in some special move. They were simply following the Lord. But as Nee came along and especially with Lee, they began to presume to represent God's move and even to have some say in its direction. The "Recovery" thus became self-conscious and self-directing. Put simply, men presumed to take control of it.

Whether God's move was ever embodied in the "Recovery" prior to Nee and Lee is really not the point. The point is once Nee and Lee presumed to be it and to lead it they reduced whatever it was to simply their own movement. And that's what the "Recovery" is today, nothing but a movement of human beings. Do they have God's presence at some level? Sure, as do thousands of other collections of Christians.

God continues to move, of course, as he always has, completely unobligated to play by Lee's rules or anyone else's. He who sits in the heavens shall laugh, at me, you, Lee, and anyone else who gets too big for their britches.

[Cal]

So to put it as simply as possible, once leaders of a group say it represents God in an exclusive way, they guarantee it does not.

[ZNPaaneah]

The fact that Lee tried to lead the "Recovery" proves the "Recovery" was just his movement. The "Recovery" is not God's move. If it was, no one would be trying to lead it but God.

Good point. Witness Lee and the Blendeds justify following so called leaders because they are following Christ. But here they show their true colors. They say they follow Witness Lee because he follows Christ, but in actuality they are simply following Witness Lee. That is what makes them "special".

What makes God's people truly a "peculiar treasure" is that they are not puffed up, they are not special, they are not sitting in the chief seat, rather they are the offscouring of the world.

[Cal]

This discussion brings to light the LCM's hypocrisy about hierarchies as well.

LCMers love to say the LCM is not a hierarchy and that all hierarchies in the Church are invalid.

But what is their determination of whether a person is in proper relation with God?

It's whether that person is in proper relation to their leadership hierarchy.

If a person submits the leadership hierarchy of the "Recovery" then the group regards him or her as properly in God's move. Only then can any work he or she does be regarded as genuine.

If a person does not submit the leadership hierarchy of the "Recovery", he or she is regarded as out of line with God's move. Even though it might appear God is working through someone not in line with the "Recovery" hierarchy, that person and his or her work are disregarded.

Thus alignment with the LCM leadership hierarchy is their absolute test for spiritual validity, all while claiming they have no hierarchy.

By this standard they define God's move by their leadership hierarchy (something they claim does not even exist). They are effectively one and the same. God's hands are tied. He must go through them. Anything else will be categorically rejected. But since the leader at the top of the hierarchy (Lee) has passed on leaving his words set in stone, no further recovery is even possible. Thus "Recovery" becomes an ironic misnomer.

[aron]

Whether God's move was ever embodied in the "Recovery" prior to Nee and Lee is really not the point. The point is once Nee and Lee presumed to be it and to lead it they reduced whatever it was to simply their own movement.

Whatever basis God had to function on earth before that point, now was supposedly reduced to Nee's interpretation of God's move. Anything else was by definition removed. The One Trumpet edict simply codified what had been understood in the LC, all along.

One of the biggest flaws in the logic and teaching of Lee and the LRC is that there is something called God's flow that is smaller than all that Christians are doing on the earth through the leading and power of the Holy Spirit.

God's flow includes every speaking of the gospel, from fire-and-brimstone preachers to simple homilies in any of the liturgical traditions. It includes the righteous living of His followers as they demonstrate something worthy of note in the world, even when there is nothing spoken. If Christians are in obedience, then God is flowing. .

There was a sister in the late '60s named Kathryn Kuhlman, and I saw a gathering of young people once at Calvary Chapel where she was in the meeting; all the freaks and hippies with long hair and beards and beads, ending every third sentence with "man", and the conservative Christian establishment was averse. Who are these people?

But Kuhlman's message was simple, two words: "Welcome home". What power. Don't try to tell me the Lord's spirit wasn't there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCvH9NOTSzw

Of course there were failures abounding. Many stumbled and fell. But the core of the gospel message is there: that we are all deformed, fallen; that Jesus is the way - repent, believe and be saved. That core message was there, and by God's mercy thousands came in, and Lee in Anaheim benefitted enormously from it all. And then he presumed to channel it exclusively, and his befogged disciples created a corporation presuming to exclusively market God's revelation on earth. One Trumpet was merely the formalization, the fossilization, of a long-established LC understanding. In Lee's words, a consummation.

[ZNPaaneah]

The most damaging and dangerous situation for a cult or false prophet is a member that only has one lord, Jesus Christ.

I used to think, "why do they care so much about other publications, most of these are non profit, what they publish is essentially free" just like no one has to pay to read or participate in this forum. But that is what is so dangerous. Siphoning money from 10,000 saints is how those in the administration of LSM get their salaries. The most damaging "competition" is from those who "freely received and freely give", that is something they have no way to compete with.

If you do not align yourself with the leadership hierarchy (and if the local hierarchy does not align itself with the LSM hierarchy) then they will treat that as the most serious attack on them, while at the same time winking at idolatry and fornication among the leadership.

[OBW]

It bothers me that some brothers among us still put out publications. According to my truthful observation there is no new light or life supply there. They may contain some biblical doctrines, but any point of life or light has been adopted from the publications of Living Stream Ministry.And there is one of the biggest problems with the LRC. They have this thing they call light and life that trumps actual teachings in the Bible. Doesn't matter if the Bible teaches it. If they don't get a good feeling from it, it's out.

Thanks for finding that quote.

[Freedom]

I came across a Facebook post and apparently LSM made a big deal about purchasing and reading their publications during their winter training. Here is their latest gimmick:
The following are display/library sets offered as packages by the Living Stream Ministry with the purpose of providing churches or individuals with a set of Living Stream publications for physical display and sale of ministry material or to serve as a library for loaning out to individuals. For ordering, please contact us directly.
https://www.livingstream.com/en/49-display-library-packages

The 'comprehensive' package is only $4524 :eek2:. It's sad to think that all the LC members who sacrifice their hard earned dollars and vacation time go all the way to Anaheim only to be subjected to LSM's latest sales pitch. They don't even realize what is happening either. If LSM makes a point encouraging people to read and buy their books, LC members think it's for good reason, without questioning it. The vast majority of LSM's publications are readily available to read online for free, so if people really wanted to read them that bad, they would. It's really that simple.

Apparently LSM thinks an increased physical presence of their books in meeting halls and homes is going to result in more sales. They couldn't be more wrong. If nothing else, they better pick more exciting cover art for their books.

[UntoHim]

Apparently LSM thinks an increased physical presence of their books in meeting halls and homes is going to result in more sales. They couldn't be more wrong. If nothing else, they better pick more exciting cover art for their books.

http://i66.tinypic.com/2ppiq3d.jpg


Does THIS look like $4,524.58 worth of "riches" to you?
But wait...there's more....does it include those compressed wood bookcases?
-

[Koinonia]

I also saw these posts on Facebook showing a giant video screen advertising these ridiculous library sets as well as other books and book packages.

This has to bother some people.

[Freedom]

I also saw these posts on Facebook showing a giant video screen advertising these ridiculous library sets as well as other books and book packages.

This has to bother some people.

I’m sure that some people are bothered. The question is whether they are willing to speak out, or if they simply shrug it off. I’m afraid that the latter is the standard response. It doesn’t come as a complete surprise though, because I think LC members are accustomed to being pressured with whatever they latest promotion is. They know that if they ignore it, it will go away once the next gimmick starts making its rounds in the LC.

What I find striking though, is that is seems that the LSM is no longer that interested in putting much effort into disguising their intentions. In the past, it seems they at least wanted to hide behind some teaching (like the “one publication”), but now they are simply trying to increase sales by telling everyone that they should read more ministry books (as if LC members don't already read enough LSM publications). The fact that they are publicly advertising these book sets along with the different price points doesn’t really do a good job at ‘hiding’ anything. Anyone willing to be honest with themselves can easily tell what’s going on.

The only ones fooled are those who are opening their wallets and buying books that they don't need.

[Freedom]

As I see it, LSM is definitely taking a big risk by doing what they're doing. LC members sacrifice vacation time and money to attend trainings based on a perception that by traveling to Anaheim, they will be part of the "up-to-date speaking." They feel that nothing else could be a better use of time. As such, there is already the understanding that the training will be used to release the latest 'burden', so I think they are more or less prepared whatever the latest thing is that LSM is trying to sell or pressure people with. The real issue, however, is how well they can sell their gimmicks and make it seem legitimate. When I attended the semi-annual trainings, it was in the mid-2000s and they were talking about the GLA quarantine and the “one publication.” It seemed reasonable that they wanted to 'warn' everyone about the problem, so I didn't read too much into it at the time. I did question the relevance of what was being spoken, as I had no clue to any of the people involved in the scuffle, but I didn't question the larger relevancy. I just assumed that most others knew things that I didn't (but I now seriously doubt that this was the case).

At any rate, the point I'm getting at here is that by using their trainings and conferences to promote gimmicky things, LSM risks alienating some of those who would otherwise attend. Before I had any LC-specific concerns or came to this forum, I stopped attending the LSM trainings. It wasn't because I didn't want to go and be part of the 'environment', it was because I realized that there was little point in attending. I realized that I didn’t need to hear all the special ‘fellowship’ that seemed to make it’s way into the trainings. Also, I realized that the church would eventually cover the material from the training anyways (in the HWFMR). Eventually, I came to realize that the material being covered was also questionable, but that wasn't what initially prompted me to avoid the trainings, it was the way the time was being utilized.

I would suspect that at least some LC members get frustrated over such things. It's kind of a slap in the face to get confronted with a sales pitch after paying an exorbitant training fee + flight + hotel (I recall that LSM started limiting who they would provide hospitality for). I think LSM is walking on thin ice with what they're trying to do. But that is their problem, not anyone else’s problem. For so long, they have been disdainful towards any notion that there would cease to be an unwavering demand for what they have to offer. Now that interest is waning in a noticeable way, the LSM is scrambling to find a solution. It seems they are willing to take risks.

[Koinonia]

Living Stream Ministry
2431 W. La Palma Ave.
Anaheim, CA 92801

PO Box 2121
Anaheim, CA 92814

September 30, 2016

Dear Brothers,

For some time, we have been burdened about encouraging the saints to read ministry publications. In 2013, we released some excerpts from Brother Lee’s speaking on the burden and importance of the matter. He said: “I hope that all the churches in all the localities, which have received the supply in the Lord’s word from this ministry, will do their best to help the publication of the ministry…We want to encourage the brothers and sisters to build up the habit of reading spiritual books.” He hoped that the elders in each locality would “give the saints some help and encouragement so that each household would have a supply of spiritual books.” He charged us to lead the saints to have “a proper attitude to be positive and aggressive, doing our best to urge people to read His word.” He also said,

If we have a clear view and know the Bible, the condition of today’s Christianity, the truth, and the mercy given to us by God, we would spend our whole life being immersed and soaked in the truth. Then we would surely have the burden to propagate this truth as much as possible among the brothers and sisters in the churches. We would endeavor to create among the brothers and the sisters an atmosphere of desiring the truth and the Life-studies…I hope that we could all learn to appreciate the Life-studies by diving into them, bathing in them, and allowing the light of the truth to penetrate us. Only then will we be able to spread the blessings and benefits that we have received, thereby creating an atmosphere in which the saints desire the truth and the Life-studies.

The Lord’s word will require that we bear the responsibility to labor willingly to zealously encourage and urge everyone in all the local churches to pursue the truth and read the spiritual publications. In this way the Lord’s truth will spread widely, and there will be a revival.

If all the six hundred churches on the earth would seriously read the Life-studies and thoroughly study the truths contained in them, I absolutely believe that a great revival would begin not only among us but even on the whole earth.

We should help the saints to build up a practice or habit that every day they would spend at least thirty minutes in the Word…I think we need to remind them week after week, and sometimes the elders need to give the saints some direction, some encouragement, and some incentive.

Moreover, we recently found the following quotation from page 163 of The Economy of God and the Mystery of the Transmission of the Divine Trinity regarding Brother Lee’s view concerning the publications.

I hope that we could live to be eighty or ninety, even to over a hundred, so that we might be able to see the fulfillment of all that we have fellowshipped today. I wish to live on this earth and witness with my own eyes the truth of the Lord not only being printed into books through our hands, but also being sent through us to every part of the world and prevailing in every place. I absolutely believe that this will hasten the Lord’s return because it is through this that the Lord will prepare His bride. I hope that we can all see the manifestation of such a situation.

North American Elders

Based on the above words, we hope that you will fellowship about this matter among the saints. In particular, we hope that you will devote a devote a dedicated time to share this burden to the whole church. Jim Miller, Steve Watts, and Michio Miyake are quite burdened to help carry out this burden among us. We have proposed that the brothers visit the churches to fellowship more in depth about this burden. The brothers will be contacting you soon. We hope that you will arrange a time for these brothers to share with the elders and the saints the importance of this reading habit. This can be done over a weekend, or during a blending time of the churches in your region, or any time convenient to you.

May the Lord bless His recovery through His rich supply in His ministry and through the cooperation of the saints.

Your brothers,
Benson Philips, Ray Graver, Andrew Yu

[Koinonia]

VIDEO: Revitalized Book Service in a Rented Meeting Place - The Church in Ontario, CA.
(https://www.facebook.com/churchnews/videos/1399553403399903/)

Encouraging the Saints to Build Up the Habit of Reading

We also want to encourage the brothers and sisters to build up the habit of reading spiritual books after every meal and before going to bed. They will gain a great benefit from reading in this way.

Finding Ways to Promote the Truth

We must have a proper attitude and be positive and aggressive, doing our best to urge people to read His word. If we do not find ways to promote the truth or pray, how can the Lord’s word be spread? If we take the Lord’s word lightly, how can we have boldness to promote the publications among the saints? (CWWL, 1984, vol. 5, “The Faithful and Diligent Spreading of the Truth", pp. 189‐190, 207)

[Freedom]

VIDEO: Revitalized Book Service in a Rented Meeting Place - The Church in Ontario, CA.
(https://www.facebook.com/churchnews/videos/1399553403399903/)

Encouraging the Saints to Build Up the Habit of Reading

We also want to encourage the brothers and sisters to build up the habit of reading spiritual books after every meal and before going to bed. They will gain a great benefit from reading in this way.

Finding Ways to Promote the Truth

We must have a proper attitude and be positive and aggressive, doing our best to urge people to read His word. If we do not find ways to promote the truth or pray, how can the Lord’s word be spread? If we take the Lord’s word lightly, how can we have boldness to promote the publications among the saints? (CWWL, 1984, vol. 5, “The Faithful and Diligent Spreading of the Truth", pp. 189‐190, 207)

When you look at the way things are worded, phrases like "boldness to promote the publications" seem to stick out. If WL's ministry is so 'rich', why would it need to be promoted? Why would there be such need to encourage people to read it? By contrast people should be running to it, if it were everything it was claimed to be.

Everything about these types of promotions suggests there is some kind of underlying resistance or reluctance to read LSM books (which we know to be true), so to me, it exposes what a big sham it really is. If someone wants to read WL's books, then fine, go for it. But why do people need to be pressured or prodded to do so?

The fact that they have to 'promote' a basic interest in certain aspects of the LCM, basically defeats everything they think the LCM stands for. Maybe if they could bring themselves to admit that much there could be change, but that is unlikely.

[Ohio]

When you look at the way things are worded, phrases like "boldness to promote the publications" seem to stick out. If WL's ministry is so 'rich', why would it need to be promoted? Why would there be such need to encourage people to read it? By contrast people should be running to it, if it were everything it was claimed to be.

I distinctly remember one training, II Corinthians, where WL unloaded heavy guilt upon all the trainees for insufficiently promoting his ministry, and thus opening the door for opposition voices to be heard across the land. Remember at that time LSM was engaged in lawsuits against Mindbenders and Godmen Thus the problem of being misrepresented by the Christian public was never WL's, because of his own aberrant teachings and practices, but the hearers' inability to properly and adequately promote his ministry as spiritual salesmen or women.

And that's the problem in Lee-land. It's everyone else's problem, but not Lee himself, because neither he nor his teachings could be anything but God-ordained and Spirit-anointed. And that includes such notables as LinKo, DayStar, and tennis rackets. At least the Papal Infallibility Doctrine was limited to matters of faith or morals. Lee's Infallibility in practice also included his two sons, Timothy and Philip.

[askseek]

This is an interesting thread. Just seeing it for the first time today.

Some thoughts:

* young people leaving Christianity will likely continue to rise accross the board -- I say this because of the Internet, where atheists have a very loud voice, and overall trends of society becoming more secularized.

* I was in FTT for a time, and many of the trainees weren't that healthy in terms of attitude or practice. A large percentage go because of obligation/pressure. Not a good motive for successful training, even though the trainers themselves (Blendeds) seemed to think just getting them there is the main thing, then good things will happen.

* Haven't read anything of WL in a decade and gave away my box of books (almost entirely from FTT) years ago.

[Freedom]

And that's the problem in Lee-land. It's everyone else's problem, but not Lee himself, because neither he nor his teachings could be anything but God-ordained and Spirit-anointed. And that includes such notables as LinKo, DayStar, and tennis rackets. At least the Papal Infallibility Doctrine was limited to matters of faith or morals. Lee's Infallibility in practice also included his two sons, Timothy and Philip.

I heard someone state that a LSM book they were reading wasn't helpful. Guess how an elder responded to that? He told the person that the reason they weren't finding Lee's book helpful was because they weren't reading it with someone else.

It amazes me how they cannot even admit for a second to the possibility that even small portions Lee's ministry might not be helpful to some people.

[Freedom]

* young people leaving Christianity will likely continue to rise accross the board -- I say this because of the Internet, where atheists have a very loud voice, and overall trends of society becoming more secularized.

* I was in FTT for a time, and many of the trainees weren't that healthy in terms of attitude or practice. A large percentage go because of obligation/pressure. Not a good motive for successful training, even though the trainers themselves (Blendeds) seemed to think just getting them there is the main thing, then good things will happen.

* Haven't read anything of WL in a decade and gave away my box of books (almost entirely from FTT) years ago.

IMO, the blendeds are clueless when it comes to the needs of young people. Most I know who attended the FTT, had no desire to go, right up until the time when they were supposedly 'led' to go. And most had absolutely zero interest prior in reading LSM books or the Bible.

[TLFisher]

http://i66.tinypic.com/2ppiq3d.jpg


Does THIS look like $4,524.58 worth of "riches" to you?
But wait...there's more....does it include those compressed wood bookcases?
-
I know there are ones who look at the publication purchases as "service". From what I've seen in homes, you'll find bookcases of LSM publications in the living room and in a side room where a home office is, you'll find a bookcase of help books of family and marriage. It implies to me the LSM publications is for image while help book is where the real needs are.

[TLFisher]

As I mentioned before--even LC leaders agonize over the fact that 50% of the young people leave the LC during their high school years (data based on a detailed "census" maintained each year in Southern California). When you consider the number that leave after high school, during college, into young adulthood, etc., the final number that leaves has to be much higher that. Almost no one I grew up with in the LC remains there. And sadly, there are very, very few among those who are any kind of practicing Christian at all.
In my generation (mid-late eighties) the percentage would be even higher. 95% would be fairly conservative. Only a few I knew remain.

[Freedom]

I know there are ones who look at the publication purchases as "service". From what I've seen in homes, you'll find bookcases of LSM publications in the living room and in a side room where a home office is, you'll find a bookcase of help books of family and marriage. It implies to me the LSM publications is for image while help book is where the real needs are.

When I was younger, I remember going to the homes of various LC members and being impressed with their collections of LSM materials. But it never occurred to me that there is no way that they could possibly have had time to have read through all of those books unless they were retired or something. It's simply not possible.

[Koinonia]

When I was younger, I remember going to the homes of various LC members and being impressed with their collections of LSM materials. But it never occurred to me that there is no way that they could possibly have had time to have read through all of those books unless they were retired or something. It's simply not possible.

And the books keep coming . . .

[TLFisher]

When I was younger, I remember going to the homes of various LC members and being impressed with their collections of LSM materials. But it never occurred to me that there is no way that they could possibly have had time to have read through all of those books unless they were retired or something. It's simply not possible.

In my younger days as a single brother, there was certainly more time to read than as a married brother. Living in a brother's house there was so much emphasis in reading the publications, reading the Word was deemphasized and secondary. At one of the college age meetings there was "a recommended list" of publications to read.

[Freedom]

And the books keep coming . . .

As long as people are willing to buy books, I guess that LSM has a market to sell them. But really, I don't look as anything different than if someone collects something, such as coke bottles. It's something purchased to display. And there is always going to be a limited market for that kind of stuff, limited to those who see a value in collecting it.

[Koinonia]

From Church News:

How does your locality conduct an effective book service in a rented meeting place?

In order to help the saints pursue the truth and read more spiritual publications, the church in Ontario (CA) has recently started providing mobile and effective book service through a portable display stand for the saints on Lord’s Day. They rent a few rooms from a local high school each Lord’s day and because of this they are using a portable book display for convenience.

Before having this portable display, the book service in Ontario mostly consisted of distributing the Holy Word for Morning Revival to the saints. However, during the 2016 winter training, there was a burden to encourage the saints to read more of the ministry publications.

This burden was brought to the saints in Ontario to see how it can be carried out. Through prayer, fellowship and the Lord’s leading, a portable display stand was purchased along with one of the library packages offered by Living Stream Ministry (LSM). LSM offers display/library sets as packages with the purpose of providing churches or individuals with a set of Living Stream publications for physical display and sale of ministry material or to serve as a library for loaning out to individuals.

“The Lord’s word will require that we bear the responsibility to labor willingly to zealously encourage and urge everyone in all the local churches to pursue the truth and read the spiritual publications. In this way the Lord’s truth will spread widely, and there will be a real revival.” (CWWL, 1984, vol. 5, “The Faithful and Diligent Spreading of the Truth,” p. 208)

The hope is that through this book service, the saints would be encouraged to pursue the truth and read more spiritual publications. Once the Lord’s truth gets into the saints, it can easily spread and this will help bring in a real revival in the saints and among the churches in the Lord’s recovery.

[Koinonia]

The LC obsession with the sale of LSM books is truly bizarre and becoming more and more so.

[Freedom]

The LC obsession with the sale of LSM books is truly bizarre and becoming more and more so.

The whole idea of promoting and selling printed books is a bit dated. There's only going to be so much demand for that. I know that the LSM offers a lot of books in the electronic format, but it seems that for whatever reason, they prefer selling printed books. It could be about the money, I don't know.

As for the churches that are trying to demonstrate how to have a good "book service", I would think that the only reason for them doing so would be to demonstrate that they are in line with what the blendeds are saying, and maybe get a little bit of credit for being the first to implement something.

[Koinonia]

The whole idea of promoting and selling printed books is a bit dated. There's only going to be so much demand for that. I know that the LSM offers a lot of books in the electronic format, but it seems that for whatever reason, they prefer selling printed books. It could be about the money, I don't know.

Declining booksales are the very reason that LSM recently started selling special libraries and sending brothers all over the U.S. and Canada to promote people's reading them. In the LC, book sales are used as an indication of both membership numbers and membership engagement. But in my opinion they are fighting a losing battle (for a variety of reasons).

I assume that income considerations must also be a factor, though I'm not entirely certain why.

[Koinonia]

The fact of the matter is that most people, even in the LC, simply do not enjoy reading Witness Lee. Even in the FTTA, this would be admitted to each other in hushed tones like a confession. After years of trying, I got fed up with forcing myself to read so much stuff that I just did not enjoy.

Freedom made an insightful observation in another thread when he pointed out that most LCers these days collect books more than read them. Once the publication of the CWWL is finished, I'm sure it will be a rite of passage for every young brother to acquire a complete set (as well as a set from the penultimate Minister-of-the-Age). The interesting thing is that this will become LSM's nearly only actual market.

[Ohio]

The fact of the matter is that most people, even in the LC, simply do not enjoy reading Witness Lee. Even in the FTTA, this would be admitted to each other in hushed tones like a confession. After years of trying, I got fed up with forcing myself to read so much stuff that I just did not enjoy.


LSM has moved further and further away from God's Word. Initially the Conferences and Life Study Trainings were commentaries on scripture. Then we had Crystalization Studies based on the Life studies, and then we had the Blendeds re-speaking the Crystalizations.

Let's be honest, as much as LSM would like the truth to be different, the Lord is just not anointing their ministry any more. That's why it has no appeal. They can't just keep blaming all the readers and the hearers! The problem is with the source of their ministry, not with The Spirit of God or the children of God.

The leadership at LSM has never acknowledged nor repented of their past unrighteousness, especially how they have abused, mistreated, and slandered both former members and the Christian public.

[TLFisher]

The leadership at LSM has never acknowledged nor repented of their past unrighteousness, especially how they have abused, mistreated, and slandered both former members and the Christian public.

I hear what you're saying Ohio, but status is a standoff. Local elders generally feel the need to "be one with the brothers". As such any historical reports are regarded as "perceived wrongdoings".

[TLFisher]

The fact of the matter is that most people, even in the LC, simply do not enjoy reading Witness Lee. Even in the FTTA, this would be admitted to each other in hushed tones like a confession. After years of trying, I got fed up with forcing myself to read so much stuff that I just did not enjoy.

Freedom made an insightful observation in another thread when he pointed out that most LCers these days collect books more than read them. Once the publication of the CWWL is finished, I'm sure it will be a rite of passage for every young brother to acquire a complete set (as well as a set from the penultimate Minister-of-the-Age). The interesting thing is that this will become LSM's nearly only actual market.

There's a term "early Lee" and "later Lee". Publications whose first editions came out prior to 1973 I enjoyed much more than those post-1973.

One item I cannot get over is how LSM receiving local churches can say they are not ministry churches. As soon a locality no longer receives LSM publications, it is no longer received by fellow localities. Moses Lake in Washington state and countless more in the Great lakes area.
By the way the GLA turmoil from the previous decade I feel in part was revenue based. You may say Titus had a work within a work, but from afar it didn't seem he was trying to compete against LSM.
Once the quarantine edicts were issued and lawsuits began, it was localities that had real estate were targeted. Others were passed over.

[Ohio]

I hear what you're saying Ohio, but status is a standoff. Local elders generally feel the need to "be one with the brothers". As such any historical reports are regarded as "perceived wrongdoings".

That's why the local elders have little responsibility in the matter.

[TLFisher]

That's why the local elders have little responsibility in the matter.

I have come to accept LC elders becoming a product of loyalty than of qualities mentioned in Paul's epistles.

[Ohio]

I have come to accept LC elders becoming a product of loyalty than of qualities mentioned in Paul's epistles.

You are so right. Of course!

We in the GLA always heard that Titus Chu was "different" in this matter.

Then it all hit close to home, prior to the GLA quarantines, and the perpetual "prevarications" of LC leadership smacked me upside the head, and this sleeper awoke. (Ephesians 5.14)

[Freedom]

One item I cannot get over is how LSM receiving local churches can say they are not ministry churches. As soon a locality no longer receives LSM publications, it is no longer received by fellow localities. Moses Lake in Washington state and countless more in the Great lakes area.
By the way the GLA turmoil from the previous decade I feel in part was revenue based. You may say Titus had a work within a work, but from afar it didn't seem he was trying to compete against LSM.
Once the quarantine edicts were issued and lawsuits began, it was localities that had real estate were targeted. Others were passed over.

In light of an apparent inability to sell books, it makes sense why the blendeds would feel threatened by publications not produced by LSM. Was that the entire issue? Probably not, but certainly a lot of the issues they have attempted to spiritualize are really just about money.

[TLFisher]

In light of an apparent inability to sell books, it makes sense why the blendeds would feel threatened by publications not produced by LSM. Was that the entire issue? Probably not, but certainly a lot of the issues they have attempted to spiritualize are really just about money.
A brother I know had an audio tape of the Spring 1986 Elders Conference/training. As much time Lee spent speaking on Linko, instances like that says there's a HUGE emphasis on money.

[Koinonia]

Encouraging responses from the saints in Florida after hearing the burden of getting into the ministry publications.

After the speaking, we allowed 20 to 30 minutes for testimonies of the saints' experience of reading the ministry publications. The saints were very appreciative of the visits and they all eagerly received and confirmed the burden. We focused our sharing on building up a daily 30-minute habit of reading the ministry, becoming a "scholarly" family by reading and accumulating books, and lending books. We recorded the testimonies of saints who gave us permission to share their testimony on the internet. We collected a minimum 10 testimonies per meeting. These will be used in our weekly newsletter.

The net effect of the church visits was not only a renewed appreciation of the ministry publications for personal and corporate enjoyment and distribution, but the visits were an encouragement and shepherding to the saints as well. The saints in Ft Meyers/Seabring were especially happy and receptive to the sharing, even promoting the ministry publications during their testimonies using the LSM flyers that we brought.

Both Samuel and I felt that there is a benefit to sharing the burden church by church. Moreover, there was great value in having Ted join us to gain a perspective of each church's local situation. This provides good foundation for his future revisits to the churches.

SUMMARY OF FLORIDA TRIP

June 2 Fly into JAX
June 3 Afternoon Jacksonville
SE Responsible Brothers' Meeting


Afternoon meeting with about 100 responsible brothers from Florida, Atlanta, Tennesee, South Carolina, and one brother from Brazil. We reviewed Br. Lee's burden for the leading ones to get into the truth, participate in building up a local book service, and leading the saints into the truth. Rick Scatterday was present and gave an excellent, short concluding word.

Documents distributed to brothers: LSM Sept 30 letter, eleven ministry exceprts, Propagation of the Truth in the Lord's Recovery, LSM package and CWWL flyers, booklists for LSM packages, outline: Fellowship on Establishing a Book Service, outline: How to Lend Books, outline: Faithful and Diligent Spreading of the Truth, excerpt from CWWL 1997, vol 1, "We Become What we Read", Ray's sheet containing accounts of David Livingstone and Hudson Taylor borrowing books.


June 3 Evening Jacksonville
Evening mtg with about 25 saints from the church in Jacksonville
June 4 Jacksonville Lord's Table with about 50 saints
June 4 Tallahassee
Dinner with four responsible brothers then church mtg~15 saints.
June 5 Gainesville (with a few saints from Ocala)
Dinner with two brothers, then church mtg~25 saints
June 6 Orlando
Dinner with~ six brothers, then church mtg~25 saints
June 7 Tampa
Dinner with~ six brothers, then church mtg~25 saints
June 8 Ft Meyers (with Seabring)
Dinner with six brrothers, then Spanish-English meeting -34 saints
June 9 Miami-dinner with seven brothers
June 10 Miami (with Fort Lauderdale and Boca Raton)
Spanish-English meeting ~200 saints.


For the ministry propagation brothers,
Michio

[Koinonia]

http://ministrypropagation.org/category/testimony/

Pages of brothers and sisters preaching about "the books." This is the LC.

[Ohio]

http://ministrypropagation.org/category/testimony/

Pages of brothers and sisters preaching about "the books." This is the LC.

That is crazy!

"The Interpreted Word saved me ..."

Witness Lee has "risen" above Jesus and His word.

[Freedom]

http://ministrypropagation.org/category/testimony/

Pages of brothers and sisters preaching about "the books." This is the LC.

Their 'testimonies' have some interesting titles...

"Those two books turned my life around"

"The Ministry Book that Stopped Me from Arguing with Brother Lee"

"Crucial Matters in the Bible Revealed to Me by the Books of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee"

"The Writings of Witness Lee Opening Up Truth after Truth from the Bible"

"Redeeming the Time By Using the App to Enjoy the Ministry"

"Becoming the Church in Our Locality through These books"

"A Deep Impression On a Scholarly Family"

"The Traditional Concept Being Changed through the Life studies"

"The Benefits of Having Ministry Books in the Home"

"The Ministry Books Revealing to Us What the Church Really Is"

[Koinonia]

These videos, websites, and letters show the real condition of the LC. The LC is the religion of Witness Lee and Witness Lee's books.

[Freedom]

These videos, websites, and letters show the real condition of the LC. The LC is the religion of Witness Lee and Witness Lee's books.

All in all, it is hard to understand how people in the LC don't see through these kinds of promotions, or the condition that it is indicative of.

What I find more concerning, however, is knowing what kind of problem they are creating for LC members when they encourage they to promote the LSM books with what they call "proper aggression." That is bound to backfire sooner or later. For example, one of their outlines on that website tells members to suggestively place ministry books around their home in "convenient locations" in hopes that family members or guests will read the books.

I've seen these types of subtle attempts they use to pressure LC members. It's what most people would call passive-aggressive behavior. For example, I was just telling someone recently about how in the city I'm from, the elders used to sign people up for conferences without asking them, and then tell them that they have been signed up already and need to attend.

That's the same type of tactic as it seems they are promoting here - trying to pressure people without asking them a question directly, which would allow for a yes/no response.

[TLFisher]

"The Ministry Book that Stopped Me from Arguing with Brother Lee"

That book would not be Fermentation of the Present Rebellion.

[TLFisher]

What I find more concerning, however, is knowing what kind of problem they are creating for LC members when they encourage they to promote the LSM books with what they call "proper aggression." That is bound to backfire sooner or later. For example, one of their outlines on that website tells members to suggestively place ministry books around their home in "convenient locations" in hopes that family members or guests will read the books.

When it's located on the same bookshelf as an Encyclopedia or the Bible, it is an Encyclopedia or the Bible that will be read before a ministry book would. All the word-smithing utilized to try to make LSM publications unique and distinct only results in a fast tract to irrelevance.

[Freedom]

When it's located on the same bookshelf as an Encyclopedia or the Bible, it is an Encyclopedia or the Bible that will be read before a ministry book would. All the word-smithing utilized to try to make LSM publications unique and distinct only results in a fast tract to irrelevance.

LSM books are readily available to read online and purchase on places like amazon for anyone who wishes to do so, not to mention all the vast collections of books LC members already have. So if people aren't reading them, it's not a lack of availability or a lack of visibility of the books. The market is already saturated, and people are bored with the same old books. These promotions just highlight the reality of the situation.

Anyways, if the LSM is so intent on selling books, maybe they should learn from Dong Yu Lan and start opening BooKafes :hysterical:
https://christianbookshopsblog.org.uk/2014/02/08/bookafe-a-bright-new-face-in-the-uks-christian-bookshopcafe-culture/

[Ohio]

LSM books are readily available to read online and purchase on places like amazon for anyone who wishes to do so, not to mention all the vast collections of books LC members already have. So if people aren't reading them, it's not a lack of availability or a lack of visibility of the books. The market is already saturated, and people are bored with the same old books. These promotions just highlight the reality of the situation.

We should never forget that it is the Spirit who gives life. A book that once was anointed, may not always be anointed, in contrast to God's Word.

LSM's books are not meeting people's needs, and hence have become worse than boring. From spoken messages to Life Studies to Rainbow Booklets to Green Volumes to Crystalization Studies to Blended Rehashings, the same teachings have been reprinted, repackaged, and resold for profit to the same customers. Nothing new, nothing fresh, nothing anointed.

Their people are starving, yet they claim to be stuffed with riches.

[TLFisher]

LSM books are readily available to read online and purchase on places like amazon for anyone who wishes to do so, not to mention all the vast collections of books LC members already have. So if people aren't reading them, it's not a lack of availability or a lack of visibility of the books. The market is already saturated, and people are bored with the same old books. These promotions just highlight the reality of the situation.

I suspect many of the newer books have their content taken from earlier publications only to make it appear "this is new". As it is much of the online content is diluted from it's original form.

[Nell]

We should never forget that it is the Spirit who gives life. A book that once was anointed, may not always be anointed, in contrast to God's Word.

LSM's books are not meeting people's needs, and hence have become worse than boring. From spoken messages to Life Studies to Rainbow Booklets to Green Volumes to Crystalization Studies to Blended Rehashings, the same teachings have been reprinted, repackaged, and resold for profit to the same customers. Nothing new, nothing fresh, nothing anointed.

Their people are starving, yet they claim to be stuffed with riches.

Ohio,

This doesn't say much for Lee being the "Minister of the Age", does it? Perhaps Lee's "age" is OVER? Lee's ministry ended with his death. All that's left is recycled and repackaged books...like eating Hamburger Helper every meal.

However, Martin Luther's contribution, justification by faith, is ageless and timeless. Lee's contribution is ... not.

Nell

[Ohio]

Ohio,

This doesn't say much for Lee being the "Minister of the Age", does it? Perhaps Lee's "age" is OVER? Lee's ministry ended with his death. All that's left is recycled and repackaged books...like eating Hamburger Helper every meal.

Nell

There was a time when I lived on Hamburger Helper....

Definitely tasted better than repackaged Lee.

Please retract your negative comments! :p

[Nell]

There was a time when I lived on Hamburger Helper....

Definitely tasted better than repackaged Lee.

Please retract your negative comments! :p

OK. You have a point. Hamburger Helper does taste better. :eek:
Oh right...I forgot. Don't say anything negative. Are you sure that applies to Hamburger Helper? :confused:

How long do i have to retract before I get banned?

[Freedom]

I suspect many of the newer books have their content taken from earlier publications only to make it appear "this is new". As it is much of the online content is diluted from it's original form.

When the LSM releases 'new' books, everyone can rest assured that it is nothing new.

I noticed that in the advertising for the CWWL they say that a significant portion of the material is previously unreleased. That may very well be true. But there is a big thing people forget about WL. He wasn't an author. He didn't write much of anything. He spoke messages. Lots of them.

Messages are delivered to audiences, and the content of a spoken message is not usually considered to have a long term applicability. It is spoken in the here and now. So what the LSM is actually releasing is a bunch of content that has a highly questionable applicability and relevance.

[Nell]

When the LSM releases 'new' books, everyone can rest assured that it is nothing new.

I noticed that in the advertising for the CWWL they say that a significant portion of the material is previously unreleased. That may very well be true. But there is a big thing people forget about WL. He wasn't an author. He didn't write much of anything. He spoke messages. Lots of them.

Messages are delivered to audiences, and the content of a spoken message is not usually considered to have a long term applicability. It is spoken in the here and now. So what the LSM is actually releasing is a bunch of content that has a highly questionable applicability and relevance.

Conversely, the spoken message tape transcripts are themselves are edited in content before released in print. Some spoken-to-written editing is necessary but content should be polished, not completely omitted.

I attended a Witness Lee meeting in Dallas in the '90's wherein he shared about "man becomes God". I was shocked by this, as it was a fairly new topic for Lee. I waited for months to obtain a copy of this Dallas conference message in print. When it was finally released, I was shocked again that "man becomes God" was nowhere to be found. I was there. I heard it with my own ears. It was in my notes.

This was only one example. Several times I thought I heard something ...controversial... looked it up in my notes and there it was. Yet it never made it to print. I cited a passage from "Elders Training #9" to an LC member. They came back "That's not in my ET#9". Sure enough, it wasn't. I had the original publication, my friend did not...so he did not believe WL said what I cited.

The spoken messages are transcribed, then often manipulated for a desired effect, applicability and an "updated relevance".

Nell

[Ohio]

Conversely, the spoken message tape transcripts are themselves are edited in content before released in print. Some spoken-to-written editing is necessary but content should be polished, not completely omitted.

I attended a Witness Lee meeting in Dallas in the '90's wherein he shared about "man becomes God". I was shocked by this, as it was a fairly new topic for Lee. I waited for months to obtain a copy of this Dallas conference message in print. When it was finally released, I was shocked again that "man becomes God" was nowhere to be found. I was there. I heard it with my own ears. It was in my notes.

This was only one example. Several times I thought I heard something ...controversial... looked it up in my notes and there it was. Yet it never made it to print. I cited a passage from "Elders Training #9" to an LC member. They came back "That's not in my ET#9". Sure enough, it wasn't. I had the original publication, my friend did not...so he did not believe WL said what I cited.

The spoken messages are transcribed, then often manipulated for a desired effect, applicability and an "updated relevance".

Nell
Nell, this explains so much, that even the current members do not understand.

For example, why the Blendeds felt compelled to cut off Titus Chu when nothing, even in their own books, would warrant it.

[ZNPaaneah]

Conversely, the spoken message tape transcripts are themselves are edited in content before released in print. Some spoken-to-written editing is necessary but content should be polished, not completely omitted.

I attended a Witness Lee meeting in Dallas in the '90's wherein he shared about "man becomes God". I was shocked by this, as it was a fairly new topic for Lee. I waited for months to obtain a copy of this Dallas conference message in print. When it was finally released, I was shocked again that "man becomes God" was nowhere to be found. I was there. I heard it with my own ears. It was in my notes.

This was only one example. Several times I thought I heard something ...controversial... looked it up in my notes and there it was. Yet it never made it to print. I cited a passage from "Elders Training #9" to an LC member. They came back "That's not in my ET#9". Sure enough, it wasn't. I had the original publication, my friend did not...so he did not believe WL said what I cited.

The spoken messages are transcribed, then often manipulated for a desired effect, applicability and an "updated relevance".

Nell

When I was in Houston and Irving there were layers of editing. These messages generally went through 3 levels of editing, only one level involved polishing the English language. I think I and others did the first layer of obvious mistakes. James F and Pat F were two of those who did the basic english editing. When I was there Ben M was one of those responsible for editing out the aspects that would be picked up by the cult books.

Basic error of the cult books was to base their study off of the written word instead of getting the video tapes.

[TLFisher]

Conversely, the spoken message tape transcripts are themselves are edited in content before released in print. Some spoken-to-written editing is necessary but content should be polished, not completely omitted.

I attended a Witness Lee meeting in Dallas in the '90's wherein he shared about "man becomes God". I was shocked by this, as it was a fairly new topic for Lee. I waited for months to obtain a copy of this Dallas conference message in print. When it was finally released, I was shocked again that "man becomes God" was nowhere to be found. I was there. I heard it with my own ears. It was in my notes.

This was only one example. Several times I thought I heard something ...controversial... looked it up in my notes and there it was. Yet it never made it to print. I cited a passage from "Elders Training #9" to an LC member. They came back "That's not in my ET#9". Sure enough, it wasn't. I had the original publication, my friend did not...so he did not believe WL said what I cited.

The spoken messages are transcribed, then often manipulated for a desired effect, applicability and an "updated relevance".

Such is true Nell. It may have been inferred if not spoken directly that the cult books that came out in the late 70's/early 80's had it's content based more off audio tapes than published material.
Even if one was to go by Witness Lee's final conference. What he spoke was edited to appear quite differently. Just by removing one word hear or there, it becomes quote easy to take out of context what was actually spoken.

[Freedom]

Conversely, the spoken message tape transcripts are themselves are edited in content before released in print. Some spoken-to-written editing is necessary but content should be polished, not completely omitted.

My point wasn't so much about the editing itself, but of the fact that WL didn't sit down and write books with a broad audience in mind. It seems I read somewhere that WL claimed that he often went up to the podium not knowing what he was going to speak. If true, then the published content of such messages has a particularly questionable applicability.

[OBW]

We should never forget that it is the Spirit who gives life. A book that once was anointed, may not always be anointed, in contrast to God's Word.

LSM's books are not meeting people's needs, and hence have become worse than boring. From spoken messages to Life Studies to Rainbow Booklets to Green Volumes to Crystalization Studies to Blended Rehashings, the same teachings have been reprinted, repackaged, and resold for profit to the same customers. Nothing new, nothing fresh, nothing anointed.

Their people are starving, yet they claim to be stuffed with riches.And I will be the fly in the ointment.

A book (other than the Bible) is never anointed. What it says may be (in part) and if it is then it should always be, even if not readily understood in other contexts, cultures, times, etc.

But when it comes to LSM books, my question is "what needs did LSM books ever meet?"

And I would suggest that it was the need to get deeper into a garlic room of misdirection and confusion. And I say that no matter how much many of us once held them in (at least somewhat) high esteem. I admit I was fooled once. But no more. At least not by that source.

[Drake]

OBW"A book (other than the Bible) is never anointed."

The wording of this sentence obfuscates the spiritual reality.

For instance, if Billy Graham speaks and 1000 people come forward to receive the Lord then there can be no doubt that his speaking was anointed. The anointing being the Spirit operating on a person as a result of the spoken word.

If that same message is transcribed into print, and people read it and the Spirit operates causing them to come to the Lord then that also confirms the same word is anointed.

Spoken or written the message is anointed, it is the Spirit's speaking.

Drake

[Freedom]

Personally, I wouldn't deny the possibility of a book being anointed, but I think there is a lot more ambiguity with books. Going back to the Billy Graham example, it is easy to characterize speaking as being anointed in a particular place and time. If a recording or transcription of that meeting is made, how do we know it will retain a lasting impact? The fact is that no one can guarantee or know if it will. Most importantly, it seems a presumptuous to look at the impact a message, then assume publishing a book based on that meeting would have the same impact.

Of course, there are plenty of books that do have a noticeable impact. When The Purpose Driven Life was published, there was definitely something special about the book that resulted in it becoming so popular. Whether someone wants to call it 'anointed' or not doesn't make any difference to me, but I would be comfortable saying that the full impact of that particular book has already been realized. In other words, most of the people who will might find help from that book have already received help from it.

WL might have given numerous messages that most people who were there would say characterize it as being ‘anointed’. However, for those who were not there, reading a book is not going to recreate the environment of actually being there. Whether or not that book is helpful depends mostly on the individual. Don’t forget that in their own words, LSM calls this current book drive a promotion. If LSM books are everything they are claimed to be, then why do they need to be promoted? Why do people need to be pressured to read them? Books that people actually want usually sell themselves. Go on Amazon and look at all the top selling Christian books and Bibles. People actually pay money to purchase those. The LCM struggles to give away the RcV for free.

[Drake]

-1 I was responding to the notion of "never anointed".

[Evangelical]

Books are not anointed, only people are.

One person may say a book is anointed, another may say it isn't. It depends on the person, not the book.

[Cal]

I think if the person is in the Spirit when they write something, or record something, then that amount of the Spirit, in keeping with the spirit in which they wrote or spoke it, continues to bear witness to it. The Spirit is the eternal Spirit. He is not subject to time.

For example, if you watch a video of a person speaking in the Spirit, you will realize they were/are speaking in the Spirit. I remember a brother who used to remark, "I don't see how the Spirit can get on tape." Well, the Spirit bore witness when it happened, and he will continue to bear witness when it is replayed, or re-read.

However, Evangelical has a point. The anointing experienced also depends on the reader/listener. Some listeners hear a message which many others would witness was anointed, yet they might say they are untouched by it. So there are two sides to it.

He that has an ear, let him hear.

[TLFisher]

Don’t forget that in their own words, LSM calls this current book drive a promotion. If LSM books are everything they are claimed to be, then why do they need to be promoted? Why do people need to be pressured to read them? Books that people actually want usually sell themselves. Go on Amazon and look at all the top selling Christian books and Bibles. People actually pay money to purchase those. The LCM struggles to give away the RcV for free.

I don't know if they still do it now, but a one time a particular tactic to promote the publications would to say if you want to be an overcomer, you need to get into the ministry.
Perhaps after a number of years and an unseemly number of dollars spent on books coming out left and right, some people saw through the façade? Others might say, why am I pretending? Buying books never read only to collect dust in their garage, bookshelves, closets, etc.

[Trapped]

I have heard that one thing that is being pushed now is called something like "Bookroom Service Workshop" where saints in the bookroom (plus a mandatory elder) fly out to Anaheim to get instructed how to carry out a proper bookroom, i.e. pleasing book displays, how ordering from LSM works, making sure the saints know about the bookroom, the importance of the ministry, and other topics on HWMR, CWWL, etc, etc. Of course to show loyalty many localities will feel obligated to participate. The instant I heard about it I just thought "money", but also "uhmm, seriously?"

Sheesh.

[Trapped]

In August 2018 The Collected Works of Witness Lee will be completed and made available in its entirety. This represents a monumental step in church history because it is a faithful preservation of the ministry that has been given by the Lord to His church for the growth and building up of the Body of Christ. Concerning this ministry, Brother Lee testifies, “It is a fact of history in the Lord’s recovery that any church which follows the ministry is strong and blessed. But those churches which neglect the ministry and try instead to do something on their own have become a failure...My burden is to produce groceries. The churches and the saints are free either to use them or to disregard them. But if the saints cast away the nourishment found in these messages, I wonder what they will feed on. We are what we eat. If we eat the ‘groceries’ produced in today’s religion, we shall be part of religion. Let me say in frankness and honesty that the leading ones need to take ‘these things’ and lay them before the saints that they may be nourished”

Possessing this set is a unique opportunity to preserve the priceless supply of the ministry with which the Lord has blessed His recovery through the speaking of the Spirit. We encourage the churches around the world to make this heritage available to the saints. The Collected Works of Witness Lee with the comprehensive index will be an invaluable resource for use in personal study, in home meetings, and in the shepherding and care of the saints. In addition, this complete set will provide a lasting legacy of the truth for our children and generations to come. Surely, this ministry is not for us alone, for in receiving it, we have been entrusted with a stewardship. “If indeed you have heard of the stewardship of the grace of God which was given to me for you, that by revelation the mystery was made known to me...by which, in reading it, you can perceive my understanding in the mystery of Christ” (Eph. 3:2-4). “The stewardship of the grace is for the dispensing of the grace of God to His chosen people for the producing and building up of the church. Out of this stewardship comes the ministry” (v. 2, footnote 2). “If you lay these things before the brothers, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, being nourished with the words of the faith and of the good teaching which you have closely followed” (1 Tim. 4:6). “To minister Christ to others requires that first we ourselves be nourished with the words of life concerning Christ”


This announcement about CWWL bothered me when it came out. Aside from the "monumental step in church history" nonsense, the other one was: "Possessing this set is a unique opportunity to preserve the priceless supply of the ministry..." ?????? No, I think LSM and all the digital records are preserving it, me buying it does not preserve it. Stop using overblown language to create the "we must" "we need" frenzy already! Invaluable? I think you meant unvaluable!!

[leastofthese]

This announcement about CWWL bothered me when it came out. Aside from the "monumental step in church history" nonsense, the other one was: "Possessing this set is a unique opportunity to preserve the priceless supply of the ministry..." ?????? No, I think LSM and all the digital records are preserving it, me buying it does not preserve it. Stop using overblown language to create the "we must" "we need" frenzy already! Invaluable? I think you meant unvaluable!!

Unreal, I had to search it for myself to make sure it wasn’t edited by our poster. It would be funny if it weren’t so sad/scary for those who are deceived and trapped in this mess they call Lee’s ministry.

The direct source for this quote: https://www.livingstream.com/cwwl/

[Ohio]

This announcement about CWWL bothered me when it came out. Aside from the "monumental step in church history" nonsense, the other one was: "Possessing this set is a unique opportunity to preserve the priceless supply of the ministry..." ?????? No, I think LSM and all the digital records are preserving it, me buying it does not preserve it. Stop using overblown language to create the "we must" "we need" frenzy already! Invaluable? I think you meant unvaluable!!
And I'm quite sure that Brother Witness Lee will give a hearty and extended thanks to all of the beloved brothers who worked so hard along side of him to build up his ministry -- ones such as Ingalls, Rapoport, Hardy, Godfred, Ransford, Grueler, Knoch, Chu, Duane, So, Mallon, and the untold number of others all recorded in the Lamb's book of life.

[countmeworthy]

I have heard that one thing that is being pushed now is called something like "Bookroom Service Workshop" where saints in the bookroom (plus a mandatory elder) fly out to Anaheim to get instructed how to carry out a proper bookroom, i.e. pleasing book displays, how ordering from LSM works, making sure the saints know about the bookroom, the importance of the ministry, and other topics on HWMR, CWWL, etc, etc. Of course to show loyalty many localities will feel obligated to participate. The instant I heard about it I just thought "money", but also "uhmm, seriously?"

Sheesh.

Hi all..
The LSM/LC just like many denominations and non denominations man made 'church' institutions have lost their first love: Jesus.

How is possible that a 'proper bookroom' 'pleasing book displays' etc is more important than building up the body of Christ and seeking Christ with all our hearts and minds and spirits of course?

I don't get it.

[Trapped]

I didn't see a thread anywhere dedicated to the "One Publication" letter put out by LSM. The letter is reproduced below, but can be found online here: https://www.lsm.org/onepublication/


PUBLICATION WORK IN THE LORD’S RECOVERY

Through Brother Lee’s fellowship over the years, we have long realized that there should be one publication among us. The one publication is not only a testimony of our oneness in the Body but also a safeguard for the unique ministry in the Lord’s recovery. Without one publication, there is no way to preserve the integrity of the Lord’s ministry among us, which is crucial to the practical oneness among the local churches. Brother Lee gave this word of testimony on this crucial matter in the Lord’s recovery:

When we were on mainland China, only Brother Nee had a publication, and the Gospel Room belonged solely and uniquely to him. He asked me to help in the publication work. I did write some books, among which were a book on the genealogy of Christ, a translation of part of Pember’s Earth’s Earliest Ages, and some books on the kingdom of the heavens. I never published anything by myself. I always mailed my manuscript to the Gospel Room, which was under Brother Nee and his helper. It was up to their discernment whether my manuscript should be published or not. I liked to have my writings checked as to whether there might be some inaccuracy in the truth. It is not a small matter to write a book that expounds the kingdom of the heavens. I liked my material to pass through their checking. This helped and protected me. Brother Yu, the eye specialist, translated some of the mystical books, but he did not publish anything. We only had one publication. Everything was published through Brother Nee’s Gospel Room because the publication is really the trumpeting. The sounding of our trumpet is not just in the verbal message but more in the publication. (Elders’ Training, Book 8: The Life-pulse of the Lord’s Present Move, pp. 161-162. See the larger context of this quotation in the attached ministry portions.)

According to the practice established by Brother Nee in China, the one publication has always been trumpeted by one practical publication endeavor—in Brother Nee’s day by his Gospel Room, during Brother Lee’s years after he left mainland China by Taiwan Gospel Book Room, and during his years in the United States by Living Stream Ministry. Today we must be diligent to continue this practice of the trumpeting in the one publication in a practical way through the publication service of Living Stream Ministry and Taiwan Gospel Book Room. Living Stream Ministry and Taiwan Gospel Book Room publish both the past ministry that was delivered to us by Brother Nee and Brother Lee and the ongoing, up-to-date speaking that comes out of the fellowship of the blended co-workers and is based on the ministry materials of Brother Lee and Brother Nee. These are the materials that have been used regularly in the church life in the Lord’s recovery, and these constitute the one publication among us today.

When Brother Lee was among us, he took the lead in both the ministry and the publication work. As he released the Lord’s ministry to the churches, he directed Living Stream Ministry and Taiwan Gospel Book Room to publish that ministry throughout the churches so that the saints everywhere could be kept in the up-to-date fellowship of the one ministry. Because the ministry was released originally in either English or Chinese, he formed Living Stream Ministry and Taiwan Gospel Book Room as publication offices that would carry out the practical service of publishing the ministry for the churches. Today, by the Lord’s mercy, the ministry continues. Now it is carried out by fellow slaves who serve in a blended way according to Brother Lee’s realization and fellowship shortly before he went to be with the Lord. He called this “the Lord’s sovereign provision for His Body, and the up-to-date way to fulfill His ministry” (A Letter of Fellowship with Thanks, March 24, 1997). It is important to note that Brother Lee spoke directly about the continuation of the ministry among us. He felt that after his departure the ministry should be carried out by a group of co-workers who are blended, just as his own service in the ministry was under his coordination with the co-workers. Further, the need to publish the ongoing ministry still exists, and to this end Living Stream Ministry and Taiwan Gospel Book Room, a blended service overseen by a group of blended brothers who serve in coordination with the blended co-workers, continue to publish the Lord’s speaking among us in all the seven annual “feasts” and the weekly ministry meetings. In a meeting with the brothers to whom he committed the responsibility for Living Stream Ministry, Brother Lee said, “My burden is for the recovery based on the interpretation of Brother Nee and me. I am the continuation of Brother Nee; I would like to have a continuation of me, and this needs a corporation...The Living Stream corporation will continue this ministry” (from unpublished notes of a meeting of Living Stream, July 12, 1996). He placed the direction of this corporation for the continuation and publication of the ministry in the hands of a group of blended brothers, who labor to fulfill this charge before the Lord.

What Living Stream Ministry and Taiwan Gospel Book Room do, as set forth in the Living Stream’s Articles of Incorporation, is “to promote the enlightenment and revelation regarding the Bible as interpreted by the teachings of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee.” It was Brother Lee’s express wish that Living Stream Ministry and Taiwan Gospel Book Room would be the sole publishers of his and Brother Nee’s ministry. According to this wish and arrangement, Living Stream Ministry and Taiwan Gospel Book Room should be responsible for the publication of the ministry materials of these two brothers, and any use of Brother Lee’s materials or of The Collected Works of Watchman Nee should be done in coordination with Living Stream Ministry and Taiwan Gospel Book Room, and only with their express permission, according to their guidelines, and in proper fellowship with them. This includes the translation of these materials into any language as well as any republication in any form or through any medium. Further, Living Stream Ministry and Taiwan Gospel Book Room also publish the ongoing ministry in the Lord’s recovery as the extension of the ministry of these two brothers. The ongoing ministry is carried out according to the fellowship of blended co-workers and is based on outlines compiled from Brother Lee’s and Brother Nee’s ministry materials. As has been apparent to all the saints everywhere, this labor produces the same ministry with the same taste as has been enjoyed in all the churches since Brother Nee’s time. The up-to-date speaking among us is published primarily in the outlines of the messages for the seven “feasts,” The Holy Word for Morning Revival, and The Ministry magazine by Living Stream Ministry and in corresponding publications by Taiwan Gospel Book Room. In addition, Living Stream Ministry and Taiwan Gospel Book Room publish works that support the Lord’s ministry. There are a number of publications which Brother Lee initiated that fall into this category, most notably the journal Affirmation & Critique, which presents the truths of the Lord’s recovery to an academically-trained audience as we have received them from Brother Lee. As much as possible, Living Stream Ministry and Taiwan Gospel Book Room avoid venturing into other kinds of publications, but according to Brother Lee’s own example, occasionally there may be publications of these other kinds which Living Stream Ministry and Taiwan Gospel Book Room feel to publish either under their own names or under special imprints that serve particular publication needs. For example, Living Stream Books (as opposed to Living Stream Ministry) publishes God’s Plan of Redemption by Mary E. McDonough, and A&C Press publishes a translation from French of a scholarly study on deification in the early church.

At times there may be writings among us that could be considered for publication as part of the one publication among us. As Brother Lee points out in the quote from Elders’ Training, Book above, these proposals should be “checked as to whether there might be some inaccuracy in the truth.” Discernment must always be exercised when expressing matters related to the divine truth, the divine life, and the gospel. The exercise of this sort of discernment not only protects the teaching among us and the spiritual supply to the saints; it also helps and protects those who endeavor to write. Hence, it is proper that those who endeavor to write in this way bring their work to those who take the lead in the ministry and those who take the lead in the publication work, and those who take the lead should exercise the discernment as to whether or not such proposals should be published as part of the one publication. This was the practice when Brother Nee took the lead in the ministry and in the publication work in China, and it was our practice when Brother Lee took the lead in the ministry and in the publication work among us. It should be our continued practice today. Thus, those who wish to write in this way should bring their proposals to the blended co-workers as well as to Living Stream Ministry and Taiwan Gospel Book Room and have their proposals checked to see whether they should be published or not. In every way, this practice of passing everything that we publish through a discerning check is best for all of us and best for the sounding of the one trumpet in the Lord’s recovery today.

We all must realize that the one publication in the Lord’s recovery is quite a serious matter. Anyone who participates in it must genuinely have the portion from the Lord to do so, and this portion should be easily recognizable to the churches and affirmed by those who take the lead in the ministry and those who take the lead in the publication work. No one can take up this portion in the Lord’s recovery on his own. While we all have a basic right to publish, in the Lord’s recovery we are governed by the higher vision of serving under the cross in a blended way in the Body, especially when it affects the churches and the dear saints everywhere. Since Brother Nee’s day we in the Lord’s recovery have been “restricted in one publication” (Elders’ Training, p. 161), and this restriction has resulted in one testimony among us. For decades we all have been nurtured and richly supplied by the one publication. The benefits of being restricted in one publication can hardly be denied.

But being restricted in the one publication does not mean, and has never meant, that individual churches are not free to produce and distribute materials for their local needs. We have always had publications like this among us, and there have generally been no problems related to these. Songbooks, local tracts, church meeting outlines, testimonies, etc., have long been produced among us without controversy. These are actually not part of the one publication among us in that they do not involve all the churches. These are publications that address local needs. Problems can be caused, however, when these local and non-permanent publications gain larger geographical status. Further, it is particularly problematic when new technologies, such as the Internet, are used to distribute these local publications. The elders should take special care to assure that what is produced for their local churches remains a local matter. Otherwise, damage may result. Although technologies now exist that permit the easy dissemination of material, we should not use these technologies at the risk of causing confusion among the saints and of damaging the one accord among the churches. The elders and saints everywhere should exercise the same caution that Brother Lee spoke of when he testified concerning the one publication in mainland China: all the saints and all the churches everywhere should similarly be restricted in one publication in the Lord’s recovery.

Technology today allows almost any individual to publish whatever he or she desires, and it should not be the intention of the responsible ones in the Lord’s recovery to suppress the rights of individuals to express themselves (unless, of course, such expressions are sinful, heretical, or divisive). Some saints have a desire to write church histories, to produce children’s materials, to record music, and even to give and publish messages. Without much effort these can be reproduced in a variety of media and distributed widely, especially on the Internet and on CDs and DVDs. But the fact that these publications can be produced and distributed should not give them any more credence among the churches than anything else that can be published today, secular or religious. These are simply other publications that our brothers and sisters may or may not be interested in. They are not part of the one publication in the Lord’s recovery, and they are not necessarily beneficial to the spiritual good of the saints among us. The churches, through the elders, should be educated to understand this, and the saints and the churches need to discern the value of these publications for themselves. As shepherds of the flock of God (1 Pet. 5:2), the elders everywhere should have a proper care for the churches with regard to publications, and they should guard the flock from things that could cause damage (Acts 20:28-29). As long as the churches do not become platforms for the dissemination of these publications, these publications should not become matters of issue among us.

Finally, all the churches and saints everywhere must understand that the matter of one publication is not a matter of the common faith but something related to the one ministry in the Lord’s recovery. The ministry is the sounding of the trumpet among us in the Lord’s recovery, and there should be no uncertain sounding of this trumpet, as Brother Lee has mentioned on a number of occasions. However, the one publication should not become the basis of our accepting or rejecting any persons in the communion of faith or in the fellowship of the churches; it should not be insisted on as an item of the faith. If any are not inclined to be restricted in one publication, these ones are still our brothers; they are still in the genuine local churches. We would like to conclude with these words from our Brother Lee and wish to recommend that the full context of his words be read from Elders’ Training, Book 7: One Accord for the Lord’s Move, pp. 74-75:

Whether or not a certain church takes the ministry does not decide whether that church is a genuine local church. The title of this message does not say “no uncertain sounding of the trumpet in the Lord’s recovery” but “in the Lord’s ministry.” I am not talking about something in the Lord’s recovery, but I am talking about the ministry...

I have to be faithful to the Lord, faithful to so many of you who have been very much affected by this ministry, and faithful to myself. For this reason, this ministry cannot allow anyone to pretend to be in it and yet still say something different. This does not mean that I ask you to stay away from your local church or that your local church is no longer a local church. What I am fellowshipping about is the impact of the ministry for the fighting of the Lord’s interest in His recovery.

The blended co-workers in the Lord’s recovery

June 30, 2005

Ministry Portions
BEING RESTRICTED IN ONE PUBLICATION

One thing that has caused the Lord’s recovery trouble is the fact that we have different publications. If we mean business for the Lord’s recovery, we must avoid any kind of involvement in problems. When we were on mainland China, only Brother Nee had a publication, and the Gospel Room belonged solely and uniquely to him. He asked me to help in the publication work. I did write some books, among which were a book on the genealogy of Christ, a translation of part of Pember’s Earth’s Earliest Ages, and some books on the kingdom of the heavens. I never published anything by myself. I always mailed my manuscript to the Gospel Room, which was under Brother Nee and his helper. It was up to their discernment whether my manuscript should be published or not. I liked to have my writings checked as to whether there might be some inaccuracy in the truth. It is not a small matter to write a book that expounds the kingdom of the heavens. I liked my material to pass through their checking. This helped and protected me. Brother Yu, the eye specialist, translated some of the mystical books, but he did not publish anything. We only had one publication. Everything was published through Brother Nee’s Gospel Room because the publication is really the trumpeting. The sounding of our trumpet is not just in the verbal message but more in the publication.

I hate to see that some of the brothers would try to publish something by copying my points mixed with their “spices” and their “color.” Why do they need to put out some points from my writings in this way? Brother Nee taught us concerning the kingdom of the heavens. I received the basic knowledge from his teaching, but he never expounded on it very much; he simply gave a sketch. It was I who from 1936 began to expound upon the sketch given to me by Brother Nee. After I published my exposition, Brother Nee admired it and told me personally that it was very good.

I hope that some of you brothers would do much development and expounding of all the messages I give. Do not merely speak some points, adding your own “color” and “spices.” This changes the taste. It damages my messages. You must receive the ability to expound all these things. I am not narrow. I would like to see that all of you will be great servants used by God. How wonderful that would be. But I do not like to see that some would merely repeat what I have said, pretending that it is their work with their spices and color.

It bothers me that some brothers among us still put out publications. According to my truthful observation there is no new light or life supply there. They may contain some biblical doctrines, but any point of life or light has been adopted from the publications of Living Stream Ministry. There is nearly no item of life or light that has not been covered by our publications. Based upon this fact, what is the need for these brothers to put out their publications? Because all the publications are mine, it is hard for me to speak such a word. But I am forced to tell the truth. By putting out your own publication, you waste your time and money. You waste the money given by the saints, and you waste their time in reading what you publish. Where is the food, the life supply, and the real enlightenment in the other publications among us? Be assured that there is definitely at least one major revelation in every Living Stream Ministry publication.

I was burdened to publish the Life-study Messages to stress the matter of life because this matter has been neglected, missed, and even lost to the uttermost in today’s Christianity. In most of the commentaries and expositions there is not much of life. Even the term Life-study is a new term. I have used this term for thirty-two years. In 1954 and 1955 I finished a Life-study on the entire Bible, from Genesis to Revelation in Taipei.

This does not mean that I am so capable or so knowledgeable. It all depends upon whether or not our sovereign Lord has given you this portion. Even though I wrote some books in mainland China, I never dared to publish anything by myself. I do not like to have another sounding. Our sounding must be one, so we must be restricted in one publication. My intention in calling a writers’ conference was to encourage you to write something, but not in the way that came out. This fellowship may preserve and protect us from doing things lawlessly.

If some localities would have gone the proper way of the recovery, using all the materials of the ministry, their number would have increased greatly. Some are wasting their time by writing and publishing their own material. This is not their portion. I would like to see that many brothers had this portion with the riches of truth. This would be marvelous and wonderful, but this is our problem today. I advise all of you to take care of this matter. You have to swallow up the dissension. Do not let dissension eat you up.

I hope this fellowship will render some help to all the churches. Take these principles, pray before the Lord, and consider the real situation in your locality. Then you can make some adjustment of the eldership. (Elders’ Training, Book 8: The Life-pulse of the Lord’s Present Move, pp. 161-164, Witness Lee)

FULFILLING THE LORD’S COMMISSION TO HIS RECOVERY

The Lord’s commission is His recovery, and His recovery today is to recover Christ as life, to recover the church as our living, to recover the enjoyment of Christ as everything to us, and to recover all the significances of the church life for the purpose of not only preaching the gospel but also spreading the truth. I believe that this is the unique reason that He has given us nearly all the truths in today’s Christianity. He has given us His truths for us to spread them not only to Christians but even to the unbelievers. The entire globe is under darkness. Every human being on the earth needs to hear the truth, but our spreading of the precious truths we have received has been strongly limited. There have been many strong testimonies concerning people getting attracted and caught by the notes in the Recovery Version, but who has the burden to go out and spread these truths?

Some brothers who are with us do not use these truths when they teach and preach. They teach and preach what they feel is good, yet they do not realize how poor their messages are. Some brothers among us continually put out some publications. I was honest to tell them that there was no light and nothing new in what they put out. The points in our publications are full of life and light, but these brothers would not present them as they are. I could not understand why they have to change the messages we publish to present something in their own style and in their own way. There are no new points of life or light in what they publish. Any life or light in their material is altogether adopted from this ministry. I have been observing this situation among us for years. I would like to see whether some younger brothers among us would be raised up by the Lord to speak something. If I could see this, I would praise the Lord. On the other hand, I have seen some who like to build up something around themselves.

The Lord has commissioned us with His recovery, and He has surely opened up the New Testament to reveal many dear and precious truths to us. What the Lord needs is for thousands of His dear saints who love Him, who live to Him, and who know nothing but His recovery to take one way. Regardless of whether the saints are from Brazil, Australia, New Zealand, Taiwan, England, Thailand, Indonesia, or the United States, we all bear the same burden, take the same way, and spread the same truths. We dispense the truths embodied in the “gold bar,” the Recovery Version. We have no other merchandise! If we would be like this, the entire earth will be taken!

It breaks my heart to see some practicing to have another ministry, using the material of the ministry. We all have to pray, “Lord, rescue me from my ambition to be somebody in the recovery.” We should only know the truths of God’s New Testament economy. We only use one way by one accord, prayer, the Spirit, and the Word. This is what I believe the Lord is after, and this is what we all expect in the depths of our being. Everyone will feel happy about this.

When we go out, we do not go in a dissenting or ambitious way. If you go out with your ambition to build yourself up and I go out with my ambition to build my ministry up, we are finished. The Lord has to go to others. We all need to go out in one way like an army. Then we will have the morale and the impact.

We do not need to do that much. We just need to go out with a pure heart, without anything to ourselves but all things to Him. Just go out with all the truths and the Recovery Version to read to people. I assure you that you will catch someone every week. You do not need to preach your teaching or your kind of doctrine with your terminology. We have to see what the Lord’s recovery is. The Lord’s recovery has been commissioned with a big enterprise to spread the Lord’s truths. He has given us the truths which we are holding. But we need the faithful, pure-hearted ones, who do not have any intention to live to themselves but to Him, to go out to spread these “gold bar” truths. There is no need for you to preach or teach in your way. Open up the Recovery Version and read some of the notes with the hungry ones.

Actually, though, I do not care that much for the increase. I care for the spreading of the truths so that they can get into the needy hearts. If we spread these truths, we will become the faithful servants to serve food to the Lord’s people at the appointed time (Matt. 24:45). Then we will fulfill the commission of the Lord’s recovery. This is where my heart is. I will die to this. I told the brothers in the Far East I will not stop until my entire being is exhausted by this ministry. I hope you all will say the same thing.

If the Lord can gain ten thousand saints in the United States to go full-time with one kind of teaching, one kind of preaching, one kind of material, one kind of publication, one kind of way, and everything one kind, this will be our morale! The wise way is that we all take the full-time way and speak the same thing, think the same thing, present the same thing, and teach the same thing, having the same essence, appearance and expression. Then we will have the morale, the impact, to defeat the enemy. This is what the Lord needs! (Elders’ Training, Book 8: The Life-pulse of the Lord’s Present Move, pp. 123-127, Witness Lee)

THE MINISTRY AND THE CHURCHES

Whether or not a certain church takes the ministry does not decide whether that church is a genuine local church. The title of this message does not say “no uncertain sounding of the trumpet in the Lord’s recovery” but “in the Lord’s ministry.” I am not talking about something in the Lord’s recovery, but I am talking about the ministry. The citizens of the United States may say many things to criticize the government and the commander in chief of the Armed Forces. But when you get into the army and become a soldier, you lose your right to say anything. It is possible to argue, debate, and even fight in the Senate, but even when the senators get in the army and become soldiers, they have to be quiet. There is no uncertain sounding in the army. The ministry is not like the Senate. The ministry is not a Congress for anyone to come here to express his opinion. The ministry has no capacity for that. The ministry is altogether filled up with a fighting spirit. I do not control any church. All the saints who have left the denominations, the divisive sects, and stand on the proper ground are a local church in their locality. They can express their opinions, but they may have nothing to do with this ministry.

Paul told us that all who were in Asia turned away from him (2 Tim. 1:15). The believers in Asia who had formerly received the apostle’s ministry now forsook him. They did not lose their status as local churches due to the fact that they gave up Paul’s ministry, but in fighting the battle, Paul’s ministry could not depend upon them. For Paul’s ministry they could not be counted on. To say that the ministry cannot depend upon a certain church does not mean that that church has been cut off from being a local church. It is still a local church, but we must realize that the ministry is a fighting unit. In this fighting unit there is no capacity and no time for your opinion.

I mean business for the Lord’s interest. I have sacrificed my entire life for the Lord’s ministry. I gave up everything to take the way of the Lord’s recovery. Now I must be faithful to myself. Furthermore, through my ministry on this globe, thousands of saints have come into the recovery, so I must be faithful to them. Many of the saints have given up high degrees to follow the Lord in His recovery, yet it seems what they are in is tending to be disappointing. This burdens me. Some of the saints became what they are in the Lord one hundred percent due to my ministry, and I do not want my ministry to waste their time. I have to do something to insure their investment of their whole being into the Lord’s recovery. They have given up their future in the world, but they cannot have much encouragement in the Lord’s recovery. I have to be faithful to the Lord, faithful to so many of you who have been very much affected by this ministry, and faithful to myself. For this reason, this ministry cannot allow anyone to pretend to be in it and yet still say something different. This does not mean that I ask you to stay away from your local church or that your local church is no longer a local church. What I am fellowshipping about is the impact of the ministry for the fighting of the Lord’s interest in His recovery.

Whatever I would say concerning the home gatherings, the full-timers, the truth lessons, and the spreading of the gospel is not for anyone who does not feel good about my ministry, who is dissenting to my ministry, who is pretending to be here under the ministry yet actually is not. I still love all the dear saints who may fall into this category and still count them as brothers in Christ, but we need to have an army full of impact, and this army has no capacity and no time for anyone to express any kind of opinion. We are fighting a battle. The army began the fighting already in Taiwan. Now we want to see this army increasing to fight the battle not only in the United States but also in Canada, in Central America, in South America, in Europe, in Africa, in Australasia, and in the entire continent of Asia. This is what I want to see. I am not talking about the churches, I am talking about the ministry. The ministry is one thing, and the churches are another thing. These two things can be differentiated in the Epistles written by Paul. Paul’s ministry is one category, and the churches are another category. Paul never tried to force all the churches to follow him in his ministry, but Paul surely had a ministry for the churches. (Elders’ Training, Book 7: One Accord for the Lord’s Move, pp. 74-76, Witness Lee)

© 2005 Living Stream Ministry

[Trapped]

I realize the shortcomings of this type of forum as the vehicle for discussion of a letter of this length and concerning what I know is a topic that has caused a lot of problems, so I am not sure how this will go. I'd love to go line by line, or paragraph by paragraph, but it is difficult in a forum format.

What I really want is a sober-minded, non-inflammatory, logical, rational look at the document. I personally see many flaws and double-speak, but I don't want to get into it in an irrational way.....I am looking for more of a "detached" analysis, if you will. A level-headed discussion about it without getting into high emotions. Please note that I have no intention to dismiss the many, many hurts, pains, sufferings, or lives that have found themselves thrown off a moving vehicle and skidding along a gravel highway at 100 mph because of this letter and the ramifications thereof. I have just personally found that if I speak to elders or co-workers in a more analytical way about things like this, they are much more willing to listen and even agree. An emotional response is more than valid given what has occurred in the local churches, I fully recognize that, but within the restrictions of what I am trying to accomplish with this thread, a more detached approach would help.

I don't even know where to start but wanted to get this much written for now so I would be on the hook to keep going.

[Trapped]

PUBLICATION WORK IN THE LORD’S RECOVERY

Through Brother Lee’s fellowship over the years, we have long realized that there should be one publication among us. The one publication is not only a testimony of our oneness in the Body but also a safeguard for the unique ministry in the Lord’s recovery. Without one publication, there is no way to preserve the integrity of the Lord’s ministry among us, which is crucial to the practical oneness among the local churches. Brother Lee gave this word of testimony on this crucial matter in the Lord’s recovery:



I guess I can start out with the first paragraph.

1. My first issue is the title. If LSM truly considers the "recovery" work of the Lord to have broadly started with Martin Luther as they say (see 3rd bullet point here: https://www.localchurches.org/beliefs/recovery/), and claim that "the Lord's Recovery" is not a name used to refer to the churches under Nee/Lee, then the title right off is ludicrous.

2. "...there should be one publication among us." To say "among us" is instantly divisive in the Body of Christ, as Nee himself stated. To paraphrase, "if we use the term "we" or "us" to refer to anything other than all the believers in a city, then we are schismatic."

3. "testimony of our oneness in the Body" - I didn't know there was supposed to be a separately grouped entity in oneness within the Body! I thought the whole Body was supposed to be one.

4. "safeguard for the unique ministry in the Lord's recovery" - what does this mean exactly? What is the Lord's recovery, defined? Again, if it goes back to Luther, then Lee/Nee cannot claim uniqueness in anything, and the ones upon whose shoulders they stood should be part of this ministry.

5. I can't even go on, they throw so many overblown buzzwords into the next sentence that my brain short circuits - "no way" "preserve" "integrity" "crucial" "practical oneness" - enough already.

I don't even know if I can do this. Others are more than welcome to jump in and make suggestions for this thread. I just wanted to at least give a place for the One Publication letter specifically.

[Drake]

What I really want is a sober-minded, non-inflammatory, logical, rational look at the document. I personally see many flaws and double-speak, but I don't want to get into it in an irrational way.....I am looking for more of a "detached" analysis, if you will. A level-headed discussion about it without getting into high emotions............I don't even know where to start but wanted to get this much written for now so I would be on the hook to keep going.

Commendable Trapped, but there are few threads able to maintain the standard of sober minded, logical, rational without high emotions in this forum. Nevertheless, it is a worthy discussion and your posting the whole document here as a reference may help.

I’m not sure going paragraph by paragraph is the best way because there are clarifications near the back that explain the what is near the front.

Thanks
Drake

[Ohio]

PUBLICATION WORK IN THE LORD’S RECOVERY

Through Brother Lee’s fellowship over the years, we have long realized that there should be one publication among us. The one publication is not only a testimony of our oneness in the Body but also a safeguard for the unique ministry in the Lord’s recovery. Without one publication, there is no way to preserve the integrity of the Lord’s ministry among us, which is crucial to the practical oneness among the local churches. Brother Lee gave this word of testimony on this crucial matter in the Lord’s recovery:

This is what Paul told the Corinthians ...4. Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5. And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord.
6. There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all.
7. But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. (I Cor 12)By mandating their "One Publication" bull, LSM has negated the scriptures. They have robbed the body of Christ of a varieties of ministries by allowing only the ministry of Lee.

Rather than keeping the oneness of the body, this divides the body. This makes all the member LC's "of Lee." The oneness of the body of Christ requires the work of the Spirit thru many gifts and the work of the Lord thru many ministries. LSM has replaced the work of God with the fleshly efforts of a publishing house in Anaheim.

By veering way off the instruction of the scripture, LSM continues to produce the exact opposite results of their published objectives.

[Drake]

I guess I can start out with the first paragraph.

1. My first issue is the title. If LSM truly considers the "recovery" work of the Lord to have broadly started with Martin Luther as they say (see 3rd bullet point here: https://www.localchurches.org/beliefs/recovery/), and claim that "the Lord's Recovery" is not a name used to refer to the churches under Nee/Lee, then the title right off is ludicrous.

2. "...there should be one publication among us." To say "among us" is instantly divisive in the Body of Christ, as Nee himself stated. To paraphrase, "if we use the term "we" or "us" to refer to anything other than all the believers in a city, then we are schismatic."

3. "testimony of our oneness in the Body" - I didn't know there was supposed to be a separately grouped entity in oneness within the Body! I thought the whole Body was supposed to be one.

4. "safeguard for the unique ministry in the Lord's recovery" - what does this mean exactly? What is the Lord's recovery, defined? Again, if it goes back to Luther, then Lee/Nee cannot claim uniqueness in anything, and the ones upon whose shoulders they stood should be part of this ministry.

5. I can't even go on, they throw so many overblown buzzwords into the next sentence that my brain short circuits - "no way" "preserve" "integrity" "crucial" "practical oneness" - enough already.

I don't even know if I can do this. Others are more than welcome to jump in and make suggestions for this thread. I just wanted to at least give a place for the One Publication letter specifically.

Ok... so...

I’d like to approach it differently and get the lay of the land from a higher slope rather than start hiking in the canyon so to speak.

Therefore, I ask, what explanation is provided in the document about the document? What does it say about its purpose? What problem was it trying to solve, if any? Is there anything in the document that provides context or explains the situation? In what way do the proposed solutions address the problem and are there alternatives to address the same issue? Is scope defined? Are there limitations defined?

I’d say the document addresses most of those questions.

To your first point Trapped about the “Lord’s recovery”... the scope... I do not find the scope of this document to encompass the broader definition of “Lord’s recovery” beginning with Luther. Brother Lee and the document repeatedly state that a narrower definition is being used... it says “According to the practice established by Brother Nee...” and again “When we were on mainland China...” . This is one of the vectors in the scope of the document ... that is, the document is addressing something in these current phases of the Lord’s recovery. If we were to try to apply the points of the document to the broader definition of the Lords recovery beginning with Luther is doesn’t apply or make sense. So anything stated in the document only applies to the period in the Lords recovery, approximately the last hundred years, till today from His recovery beginning, or part way into,in China.

Drake

[Ohio]

4. "safeguard for the unique ministry in the Lord's recovery" - what does this mean exactly? What is the Lord's recovery, defined? Again, if it goes back to Luther, then Lee/Nee cannot claim uniqueness in anything, and the ones upon whose shoulders they stood should be part of this ministry.

Using Martin Luther as the starting point of "Recovery" requires extensive historical revisionism. Without a doubt Luther stood with many Reformers across Europe to work with the Spirit of God. Luther himself, however, declared "I am a Hussite" when he starkly realized that his faith and teachings merely duplicated that of the Bohemian martyr John Huss a century before him. And who was Huss's predecessor? You get the point.

Yes, the dark ages were dark indeed, but there never was a time when the faith or the scriptures were completely "lost" as Lee would want us to believe. In yet another irony, Martin Luther is simultaneously declared the first Minister of the Age (MOTA) and a total failure for the Lutheran state church. Supposedly he began the recovery but ruined the church. Oh well.

The tenets of the "Recovery" are built on the sinking sands of hagiography. It exists merely to serve the legitimacy needs of their MOTA. In principle there is no difference from the RCC's claim that Peter was their first Pope, and the recovery's claim that Luther was their first MOTA. Like the mythological lineage of popes, it really gets crazy when they attempt to establish the lineage of MOTAs after Luther. Anyone ever hear of Madame Guyon? Yep, a bona fide MOTA. Just ask LSM archivists.

[Ohio]

Ok... so...

I’d like to approach it differently and get the lay of the land from a higher slope rather than start hiking in the canyon so to speak.

Therefore, I ask, what explanation is provided in the document about the document? What does it say about its purpose? What problem was it trying to solve, if any? Is there anything in the document that provides context or explains the situation? In what way do the proposed solutions address the problem and are there alternatives to address the same issue? Is scope defined? Are there limitations defined?

I’d say the document addresses most of those questions.

To your first point Trapped about the “Lord’s recovery”... the scope... I do not find the scope of this document to encompass the broader definition of “Lord’s recovery” beginning with Luther. Brother Lee and the document repeatedly state that a narrower definition is being used... it says “According to the practice established by Brother Nee...” and again “When we were on mainland China...” . This is one of the vectors in the scope of the document ... that is, the document is addressing something in these current phases of the Lord’s recovery. If we were to try to apply the points of the document to the broader definition of the Lords recovery beginning with Luther is doesn’t apply or make sense. So anything stated in the document only applies to the period in the Lords recovery, approximately the last hundred years, till today from His recovery beginning, or part way into,in China.

Drake
Does this make any sense? Call on Martin Luther et. al. for legitimacy, and then say "oh by the way, we change the rules." Luther, via the printing press, opened the floodgates of diverse writings about scripture. Anybody and everybody now had a voice. And a pen. Only the money changers at LSM think this is bad.

W. Lee led us to believe many things about China under W. Nee. Today I don't believe anything he told us. To believe Lee is to negate every other author, both from within and without the Little Flock movement in China. Either W. Lee is right and all other co-workers and historians are liars, or ... You fill in the blanks.

Actually, in the early days in the US, roughly from 1962 to 1980, there were many writers and publishers within the LCM. Lee was just one of many ministers, that is until he took over and threw the rest of them under the bus. By 2010 LSM's takeover was complete when they excommunicated Titus Chu in Cleveland and Dong Yu Lan in Brazil. They have finally purged the last holdouts.

Now they claim "we have always had only one publication, and that's why we have always been so one."

Hypocrites.


.

[leastofthese]

I don't even know if I can do this. Others are more than welcome to jump in and make suggestions for this thread. I just wanted to at least give a place for the One Publication letter specifically.

Trapped,

I think the letter speaks for itself, it doesn't even take a critical eye so see its absurdity (I don't intend for this to be inflammatory, but I know of no other way to describe this message). Some passages I found interesting from different paragraphs:

Without one publication, there is no way to preserve the integrity of the Lord’s ministry among us, which is crucial to the practical oneness among the local churches.

Living Stream Ministry and Taiwan Gospel Book Room publish both the past ministry that was delivered to us by Brother Nee and Brother Lee and the ongoing, up-to-date speaking that comes out of the fellowship of the blended co-workers and is based on the ministry materials of Brother Lee and Brother Nee. These are the materials that have been used regularly in the church life in the Lord’s recovery, and these constitute the one publication among us today.

It is important to note that Brother Lee spoke directly about the continuation of the ministry among us. He felt that after his departure the ministry should be carried out by a group of co-workers who are blended, just as his own service in the ministry was under his coordination with the co-workers.

occasionally there may be publications of these other kinds which Living Stream Ministry and Taiwan Gospel Book Room feel to publish either under their own names or under special imprints that serve particular publication needs.

Thus, those who wish to write in this way should bring their proposals to the blended co-workers as well as to Living Stream Ministry and Taiwan Gospel Book Room and have their proposals checked to see whether they should be published or not.

We all must realize that the one publication in the Lord’s recovery is quite a serious matter. Anyone who participates in it must genuinely have the portion from the Lord to do so, and this portion should be easily recognizable to the churches and affirmed by those who take the lead in the ministry and those who take the lead in the publication work.... For decades we all have been nurtured and richly supplied by the one publication. The benefits of being restricted in one publication can hardly be denied.

Problems can be caused, however, when these local and non-permanent publications gain larger geographical status. Further, it is particularly problematic when new technologies, such as the Internet, are used to distribute these local publications. The elders should take special care to assure that what is produced for their local churches remains a local matter.

Finally, all the churches and saints everywhere must understand that the matter of one publication is not a matter of the common faith but something related to the one ministry in the Lord’s recovery. The ministry is the sounding of the trumpet among us in the Lord’s recovery, and there should be no uncertain sounding of this trumpet, as Brother Lee has mentioned on a number of occasions. However, the one publication should not become the basis of our accepting or rejecting any persons in the communion of faith or in the fellowship of the churches; it should not be insisted on as an item of the faith. If any are not inclined to be restricted in one publication, these ones are still our brothers; they are still in the genuine local churches. We would like to conclude with these words from our Brother Lee and wish to recommend that the full context of his words be read from Elders’ Training, Book 7: One Accord for the Lord’s Move, pp. 74-75:

I have to be faithful to the Lord, faithful to so many of you who have been very much affected by this ministry, and faithful to myself. For this reason, this ministry cannot allow anyone to pretend to be in it and yet still say something different. This does not mean that I ask you to stay away from your local church or that your local church is no longer a local church. What I am fellowshipping about is the impact of the ministry for the fighting of the Lord’s interest in His recovery.

[Drake]

Ok... so...

I’d like to approach it differently and get the lay of the land from a higher slope rather than start hiking in the canyon so to speak.

Therefore, I ask, what explanation is provided in the document about the document? What does it say about its purpose? What problem was it trying to solve, if any? Is there anything in the document that provides context or explains the situation? In what way do the proposed solutions address the problem and are there alternatives to address the same issue? Is scope defined? Are there limitations defined?

I’d say the document addresses most of those questions.

To your first point Trapped about the “Lord’s recovery”... the scope... I do not find the scope of this document to encompass the broader definition of “Lord’s recovery” beginning with Luther. Brother Lee and the document repeatedly state that a narrower definition is being used... it says “According to the practice established by Brother Nee...” and again “When we were on mainland China...” . This is one of the vectors in the scope of the document ... that is, the document is addressing something in these current phases of the Lord’s recovery. If we were to try to apply the points of the document to the broader definition of the Lords recovery beginning with Luther is doesn’t apply or make sense. So anything stated in the document only applies to the period in the Lords recovery, approximately the last hundred years, till today from His recovery beginning, or part way into,in China.

Drake

The scope of this document further narrows the subject.... (within that time period of the Lords' recovery commencing during Watchman Nee's ministry to the present) to the ministry... not the Lord's recovery in its entirety.

Brother Lee explains as follows:

"Whether or not a certain church takes the ministry does not decide whether that church is a genuine local church. The title of this message does not say “no uncertain sounding of the trumpet in the Lord’s recovery” but “in the Lord’s ministry.” I am not talking about something in the Lord’s recovery, but I am talking about the ministry."

Drake

[Ohio]

The scope of this document further narrows the subject.... (within that time period of the Lords' recovery commencing during Watchman Nee's ministry to the present) to the ministry... not the Lord's recovery in its entirety.

Brother Lee explains as follows:

"Whether or not a certain church takes the ministry does not decide whether that church is a genuine local church. The title of this message does not say “no uncertain sounding of the trumpet in the Lord’s recovery” but “in the Lord’s ministry.” I am not talking about something in the Lord’s recovery, but I am talking about the ministry."

Drake

Once again this quote by Drake shows the gross disconnect between actions taken by LSM and what some book says. Operatives from LSM came into every Midwest LC 10 years ago to divide these churches over this very matter. The quote by Lee supposedly addresses the ministry only. Actually it places standards on churches, whether they are genuine local churches or not.

Let me be honest here but blunt -- I continue to find everything Drake posts about LSM to be nothing more than horse manure!

I am a contemporary of Drake. I first contacted the LC in Cleveland in 1973. I was actively serving greater Ohio churches for 30 years. Then they came in as thieves to divide and destroy every Midwest church over this one matter -- do we use LSM's books exclusively in our meetings?

[Nell]

If "the ministry" as defined by a bunch of old fat men in "the one publication", were all it claimed to be, it would in fact be UNSTOPPABLE. If you have to legislate allegiance to your "ministry", there is something really wrong with your "ministry."

Does the Bible owe its longevity to a bunch of old fat men who, by mandate, crammed it down the throats of the faithful for centuries in order to keep it alive?

In fact, the nature of God is to give people the freedom to choose to follow Him---or not. We have the Bible today because of the faithful men and women, Divinely inspired and empowered, who chose to keep it alive for centuries. We are told that the Word of God is living (not the "one publication"). In the beginning was the Word...the Word was God...And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

How does this compare to "the ministry" of Witness Lee, in which Lee points the way to himself and not to Jesus? This "one publication" letter/document/whatever is an embarrassment to those who wrote it...as Trapped has noted. Further, this document is an obvious admission that Lee's "ministry" cannot stand on its own. That is, Lee's "ministry" can only stand as long as some old fat men prop it up with bogus mandatory loyalty imposed on those over whom they have "power". This "one publication" edict is an admission that the "ministry" of a dead man will die without someone (a bunch of old fat men) pumping air into it.

Why do we need "the ministry," the "one publication", when we have the eternal, unstoppable Bible?

Nell

[Drake]

Why do we need "the ministry," the "one publication", when we have the eternal, unstoppable Bible?

Nell

Nell, Your post conflates two things. In this post I’ll address the first here which suggests that since we have the Bible we don’t need the ministry.

The answer is stated in the Bible itself, ......the Bible, though available to almost every person in the world who wants one, does not build up the Body of Christ by itself. Therefore, Christ in His ascension gave gifts to men to perfect the saints for the work of ministry unto the building up of the Body of Christ.

“For He Himself gave some as apostles and some as prophets and some as evangelists and some as shepherds and teachers, for the perfecting of the saints unto the work of ministry , unto the building up of the Body of Christ.” Ephesians 4:11-12

Therefore, we have the Bible but we also need the gifts Christ gave.... for instance we need the teachers to teach God’s Word. Every gift given by Christ to us has a function to perfect the saints.

If we neglect the gifts we neglect the perfecting and we miss participation in the ministry that builds up the Body of Christ according to Ephesians 4:11-12

Drake

[Drake]

Does the Bible owe its longevity to a bunch of old fat men who, by mandate, crammed it down the throats of the faithful for centuries in order to keep it alive?

How does this compare to "the ministry" of Witness Lee, in which Lee points the way to himself and not to Jesus?

Nell,

Your second point above is not accurate and even the document itself refutes that statement. If you really believe it then you’ll need to show us out of the tens of thousands of pages released through this ministry where Brother Lee does not point to Jesus..... for he dedicated this ministry to all that pertains to Christ as the subject in nearly every message.. This ministry’s focus is on Christ as life and the Church as His Body and the expression of the testimony of oneness of the Body in each locality. That is what attracted me to this way over forty years ago..... and still does. Yet, your experience is different, I get that, but it is a completely inaccurate to say this ministry does not point to Jesus but to Brother Lee... so let’s examine this document as the base note specified...,

Your first point above says “mandate”.... ... if there is a mandate implied in the document of any sort it is what LSM will publish on their presses under the banner of this ministry. It is not a read only mandate for everyone, it is not a mandate to every local church to read what LSM publishes, it is not a mandate that no other writings can be published by local churches for its own needs, it is not a mandate for the Lords recovery...etc. On the contrary, any member can read what they want, a local church is a local church whether they use LSM materials or not, any locality can publish their own material for their own need,..it is something directly about the ministry not the Lord’s recovery in general.

The implication of mandate in your post is stretched well beyond the definition in the document and what Brother Lee has said himself.

Drake

[awareness]

If we neglect the gifts we neglect the perfecting and we miss participation in the ministry that builds up the Body of Christ according to Ephesians 4:11-12

Hey Drake. Thanks for bringing this up.

My gift got more than neglected. It got rejected. It got pushed out. Not because I rejected Jesus, God, or the Bible ... or the church. All because of one thing : because I rejected the Lee as the MOTA thing.

They liked my delivery, but told me to restrict my testimonies to repeating Lee, and/or the elders.

All other gifts get neglected and rejected. At least it was that way way back then. Has it changed? I keep an eye on it, and see no proof of that yet.

[Drake]

Hi awareness,

I understand. Based only on your testimony in the past, I have a deep impression that the Lord’s provision for you in that situation was Ron’s shepherding ... his plea and request for you to join him.

It did not happen, it’s water under the bridge, but looking in the rear view mirror that is how it appears from here.

Drake

[Ohio]

Nell, Your post conflates two things. In this post I’ll address the first here which suggests that since we have the Bible we don’t need the ministry.
The answer is stated in the Bible itself, ......the Bible, though available to almost every person in the world who wants one, does not build up the Body of Christ by itself. Therefore, Christ in His ascension gave gifts to men to perfect the saints for the work of ministry unto the building up of the Body of Christ.
“For He Himself gave some as apostles and some as prophets and some as evangelists and some as shepherds and teachers, for the perfecting of the saints unto the work of ministry , unto the building up of the Body of Christ.” Ephesians 4:11-12
Therefore, we have the Bible but we also need the gifts Christ gave.... for instance we need the teachers to teach God’s Word. Every gift given by Christ to us has a function to perfect the saints.
If we neglect the gifts we neglect the perfecting and we miss participation in the ministry that builds up the Body of Christ according to Ephesians 4:11-12
Every Christian -- and Nell too -- agrees that the body of Christ needs the "work of ministry" for the building up. The Bible says it and we agree.

The real question is why Lee and LSM have twisted this into an abusive money making exclusive book publisher and training center which lords it over all the LC's? This is the question you refuse to answer.

Also, where are all of these "perfected" saints?

[Trapped]

The scope of this document further narrows the subject.... (within that time period of the Lords' recovery commencing during Watchman Nee's ministry to the present) to the ministry... not the Lord's recovery in its entirety. Brother Lee explains as follows: "Whether or not a certain church takes the ministry does not decide whether that church is a genuine local church. The title of this message does not say “no uncertain sounding of the trumpet in the Lord’s recovery” but “in the Lord’s ministry.” I am not talking about something in the Lord’s recovery, but I am talking about the ministry."

Well...................................

While the message quoted may say that, unfortunately the title of the whole letter is "...in the Lord's recovery" so it's difficult to see how they don't mean just that.

Another issue with the quote you provided is "in the Lord's ministry". They should have said "no uncertain sounding of the trumpet in Nee/Lee's ministry". This is one big problem I have seen over and over again - LSM equates/conflates/substitutes "Witness Lee's ministry" with "the ministry" with "the Lord's ministry" with "the New Testament ministry".

The Lord's ministry is actually all over the whole earth and is much larger than just Nee or Lee's ministries. It is THE LORD'S! The Lord is working in people's lives through people all over the earth in ways that have nothing to do with Lee or Nee. THAT is the Lord's ministry, not just that which proceeds out through the mouth of Lee, in which case it once again is ludicrous to say there should only be one publication in the whole of the Lord's ministry.

[Trapped]

Ok... so...

I’d like to approach it differently and get the lay of the land from a higher slope rather than start hiking in the canyon so to speak.

Therefore, I ask, what explanation is provided in the document about the document? What does it say about its purpose? What problem was it trying to solve, if any? Is there anything in the document that provides context or explains the situation? In what way do the proposed solutions address the problem and are there alternatives to address the same issue? Is scope defined? Are there limitations defined?

I’d say the document addresses most of those questions.

To your first point Trapped about the “Lord’s recovery”... the scope... I do not find the scope of this document to encompass the broader definition of “Lord’s recovery” beginning with Luther. Brother Lee and the document repeatedly state that a narrower definition is being used... it says “According to the practice established by Brother Nee...” and again “When we were on mainland China...” . This is one of the vectors in the scope of the document ... that is, the document is addressing something in these current phases of the Lord’s recovery. If we were to try to apply the points of the document to the broader definition of the Lords recovery beginning with Luther is doesn’t apply or make sense. So anything stated in the document only applies to the period in the Lords recovery, approximately the last hundred years, till today from His recovery beginning, or part way into,in China.

Drake


To respond to your first post, I will be fine if some posts in this thread are emotional rather than analytical given the seriousness of repercussions that resulted from the letter, I just don't want the thread to be dominated by it and I don't expect it will.

Regarding your suggestion above, I like that approach better than mine, but it will take some time for me to be able to provide any kind of coherent response. (Of course others can provide their responses in the meantime!)

The very short answer seems to be that the letter is saying "hey look, anyone can publish, but if you do it won't be considered part of the awe-inspiring 'One Publication'". Long-story-short it's basically it's a book publisher saying "we only publish Nee and Lee and if anyone else writes something it won't be endorsed by us and we are heavily insinuating that it will most likely cause damage so run away from it." Sadly they are addressing this letter to a specific collection of churches, which is why we are known as LSM CHURCHES!!!!

I got a little sarcastic there but let me get serious again: one thing that would help me to respond is to know a little bit more about the context of what was going on in the local churches before this letter was put out. It wasn't written in a vacuum, right? It seems obvious it is in response to some turmoil and most likely is attempting to address the "problems" inherent in the situations. Could you (or anyone) give me some background info there?

[Trapped]

If "the ministry" as defined by a bunch of old fat men in "the one publication", were all it claimed to be, it would in fact be UNSTOPPABLE. If you have to legislate allegiance to your "ministry", there is something really wrong with your "ministry."

Does the Bible owe its longevity to a bunch of old fat men who, by mandate, crammed it down the throats of the faithful for centuries in order to keep it alive?

In fact, the nature of God is to give people the freedom to choose to follow Him---or not. We have the Bible today because of the faithful men and women, Divinely inspired and empowered, who chose to keep it alive for centuries. We are told that the Word of God is living (not the "one publication"). In the beginning was the Word...the Word was God...And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

How does this compare to "the ministry" of Witness Lee, in which Lee points the way to himself and not to Jesus? This "one publication" letter/document/whatever is an embarrassment to those who wrote it...as Trapped has noted. Further, this document is an obvious admission that Lee's "ministry" cannot stand on its own. That is, Lee's "ministry" can only stand as long as some old fat men prop it up with bogus mandatory loyalty imposed on those over whom they have "power". This "one publication" edict is an admission that the "ministry" of a dead man will die without someone (a bunch of old fat men) pumping air into it.

Why do we need "the ministry," the "one publication", when we have the eternal, unstoppable Bible?

Nell
I do have to say in agreement....the only one who can have "up-to-date speaking" after his death is Jesus! He is the only one! For the blended brothers to claim that Lee's refried and rehashed ministry contains the Lord's up-to-date speaking 20 years after the mortal human being passed away is just ridiculous.

I have had conversations with elders in which I asked why we still do certain things (e.g. some aspects of the seven feasts) and they admitted that we only continue to do them because it was the practice that Lee set forth, even though as time goes by the reasons for doing them are no longer relevant and it would actually be beneficial to be able to make a change, but we can't because the man behind it is dead and we are unable to do anything different. (paraphrasing and editorializing a little obviously) We have trapped ourselves into not being able to take care of the needs of the saints and the churches in the best and most beneficial way!

In one sense it is "better" for a church to gather around a practice or teaching, like baptism by immersion or speaking in tongues, rather than gather around a specific man's ministry, because the practice/teaching can last forever, but what does a group of churches do after the man they followed dies?! Pump air into it, like you said :rolleyes2:

[UntoHim]

Salient points to keep in mind regarding "The One Publication":

First and foremost, it should be noted and understood that nothing...absolutely nothing... in this "declaration" varies or detracts one iota from what Witness Lee clearly and strongly taught for over 50 years - to wit - the he, Witness Lee, was the only person on earth speaking as God's oracle, at least since 1945. The New Testament Ministry was vested in Lee's person and work. PERIOD. No other person, no other work, shall be considered. PERIOD. When Lee died over 21+ years ago, the person died, but his personal work, The Ministry lives on...NOT in the persons or works of mere mortal men, but in an American registered corporation - The Living Stream Ministry.
"I would like to have a continuation of me, and this needs a corporation...The Living Stream corporation will continue this ministry”
(from unpublished notes of a meeting of Living Stream, July 12, 1996)

I would make this the first and foremost point because over the years many dear brothers have made the claim that The Blended Brothers have wondered from or even misrepresented Witness Lee. This is not true. Over the years I have challenged anyone to show me where the BBs have wavered from, altered or misrepresented Lee in any significant point of teaching or practice. No one has been able to meet my challenge, and nobody will, because the simple fact is that these men have, for better or for worse, faithfully fulfilled their vow and obligation to become "brother Lee's continuation".
He placed the direction of this corporation for the continuation and publication of the ministry in the hands of a group of blended brothers, who labor to fulfill this charge before the Lord.
(From The One Publication, paragraph 4)
Again, as with the late Witness Lee, these men are totally unambiguous regarding what ministry shall be accepted and imbibed in the Local Churches. Again, The New Testament Ministry was and is vested in the personal ministry of Witness Lee. "God, in these last days, has spoken", not merely by His Son, or the Holy Scriptures, or in the teachings and practices of the Apostles, but in the person and work of 李常受; Lǐ Chángshòu.

Of course there are number of facets and details of this document we can, and should, delve into on our little forum. But I wanted to make a clarification lest some here become successful with their attempt to distract, distort, mitigate, apologize for and water down what this declaration means for current members and for anyone thinking of joining the Local Church movement.
-

[Trapped]

At times there may be writings among us that could be considered for publication as part of the one publication among us. As Brother Lee points out in the quote from Elders’ Training, Book above, these proposals should be “checked as to whether there might be some inaccuracy in the truth.” Discernment must always be exercised when expressing matters related to the divine truth, the divine life, and the gospel. The exercise of this sort of discernment not only protects the teaching among us and the spiritual supply to the saints; it also helps and protects those who endeavor to write. Hence, it is proper that those who endeavor to write in this way bring their work to those who take the lead in the ministry and those who take the lead in the publication work, and those who take the lead should exercise the discernment as to whether or not such proposals should be published as part of the one publication.


There is a paragraph one or two above this one quoted that states essentially that LSM is the sole publisher of Nee and Lee's materials. I have no problem with that, in principle. What I get confused by is when statements are made such as the ones bolded in the above paragraph. Can anyone define what "the one publication" even is? That phrase is paraded and repeated over and over in the letter, but there is no definition. By inference I would think the one publication are Nee and Lee's materials only; however, what does "writings among us that could be part of the one publication" even mean after both men's death, practically? Does this mean that if Brother Smith wrote a book, it would be submitted to LSM for review, and if it passed whatever nebulous test LSM would put it through, that LSM would publish that book showing it as written by Smith? Or if it had the same "flavor" as Nee/Lee, it would just be published as LSM material with no mention of Smith? Is anyone here aware of any example, besides those provided in the letter itself (the only true one of which seems to be Affirmation and Critique which are LSM publications but which include articles authored by other people), where this has occurred? Where a non-Nee/Lee writing among the LCs has been published and disseminated officially as part of "the one publication"?

Is Journey through the Bible that used to be used years ago one of those? I don't think so. Who wrote and published that?

[Ohio]

Simple. The One Publication Policy was a means for Lee and the Blendeds to remove their rivals and potential threats to their power.
.

[Trapped]

"Whether or not a certain church takes the ministry does not decide whether that church is a genuine local church. The title of this message does not say “no uncertain sounding of the trumpet in the Lord’s recovery” but “in the Lord’s ministry.” I am not talking about something in the Lord’s recovery, but I am talking about the ministry."



This is to further detail out the contradiction found in the statement quoted above when compared to the contents of the letter.

Unfortunately, the letter goes on to make a very clear connection between the one publication and the Lord's recovery (not the Lord's ministry), over and over.

Letter itself

1. In the title: PUBLICATION WORK IN THE LORD’S RECOVERY
2. First paragraph: ... this crucial matter in the Lord’s recovery
3. Third paragraph: These are the materials that have been used regularly in the church life in the Lord’s recovery, and these constitute the one publication among us today.
4. Sixth paragraph: the sounding of the one trumpet in the Lord’s recovery today.
6. Seventh paragraph: We all must realize that the one publication in the Lord’s recovery is quite a serious matter.
7. Seventh paragraph again: Since Brother Nee’s day we in the Lord’s recovery have been “restricted in one publication”
8. Eighth paragraph: all the saints and all the churches everywhere should similarly be restricted in one publication in the Lord’s recovery.
9. Tenth paragraph: Finally, all the churches and saints everywhere must understand that the matter of one publication is ... something related to the one ministry in the Lord’s recovery.

Ministry portion following letter

1. First paragraph: One thing that has caused the Lord’s recovery trouble is the fact that we have different publications.

[Drake]

This is to further detail out the contradiction found in the statement quoted above when compared to the contents of the letter. Unfortunately, the letter goes on

Wait.

If we are going to be precise let’s be so in all aspects.

The statement quoted was from the letter. Not that the letter said one thing and the statement quoted was only found elsewhere.

So then, is your objection that the content of the letter contradicts itself?

Drake

[Nell]

The following link is a post from the Lawsuits topic. It discusses Witness Lee's deposition in the Mindbenders lawsuit as compared to the "One Publication."

Title: Witness Lee's Sworn Statements vs. Local Church Teachings
Post by: afazio on November 11, 2005, 02:39:21 AM
On the Bereans Forum (now defunct as related to the Local Churches).

http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vBulletin/showpost.php?p=79009&postcount=15

Nell

[Trapped]

Wait.

If we are going to be precise let’s be so in all aspects.

The statement quoted was from the letter. Not that the letter said one thing and the statement quoted was only found elsewhere.

So then, is your objection that the content of the letter contradicts itself?

Drake


Yes, exactly. The statement you quoted was part of the letter. That statement itself says that we are not talking about one trumpet in the Lord's recovery, but in the Lord's ministry. However, in that letter itself it says many times the one trumpet or one publication in the Lord's recovery.

[Ohio]

Yes, exactly. The statement you quoted was part of the letter. That statement itself says that we are not talking about one trumpet in the Lord's recovery, but in the Lord's ministry. However, in that letter itself it says many times the one trumpet or one publication in the Lord's recovery.


So Drake is now "Trapped."

[TLFisher]

[/SIZE][/FONT]Since Brother Nee’s day we in the Lord’s recovery have been “restricted in one publication”
[FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2]
]
Is this really accurate?
I seem to recall up until a particular time during the 70's perhaps, there were multiple publications available in bookrooms. Restriction to one publication as the author indicates didn't occur until later.

[ZNPaaneah]

Yes, exactly. The statement you quoted was part of the letter. That statement itself says that we are not talking about one trumpet in the Lord's recovery, but in the Lord's ministry. However, in that letter itself it says many times the one trumpet or one publication in the Lord's recovery.

Great point. To work for a publisher whose policy is the "one trumpet" is quite reasonable. To then apply this policy to the church which by definition is full of members who are not part of this publisher is abusive. It is also confusion. If you were a volunteer who served in this ministry without ever becoming an employee are you also now bound by this policy?

I have no issue with anyone serving in LSM and thinking they are serving the Lord. I may get a little uncomfortable when they uplift a man, I may disagree with some of their doctrines, and I may feel that they need to be more accountable and responsible with dealing with sin.

The real issue I have with them is when they bring the Body of Christ into bondage based on a lie all with the goal of making merchandise of the saints.

[Drake]

Yes, exactly. The statement you quoted was part of the letter. That statement itself says that we are not talking about one trumpet in the Lord's recovery, but in the Lord's ministry. However, in that letter itself it says many times the one trumpet or one publication in the Lord's recovery.

Trapped,

We may be as two knights passing on a ship... or something like that...:o

what I mean is the letter includes the statement and is part of the letter since the signatories are below that statement. That statement is also repeated in the supplement reading from Brother Lee below the signatories.

It should be included as part of the letter since it is in the body of the letter. That is how I see it,

Drake

[Trapped]

Trapped,

We may be as two knights passing on a ship... or something like that...:o

what I mean is the letter includes the statement and is part of the letter since the signatories are below that statement. That statement is also repeated in the supplement reading from Brother Lee below the signatories.

It should be included as part of the letter since it is in the body of the letter. That is how I see it,

Drake


I am so sorry....I'm not trying to be obtuse but I'm just stuck. I just can't grasp what you are trying to say. Could you restate it, or slip-n-slide into it from farther away with the background of what is behind it? I feel dumb but I do want to understand your point.


It is included as part of the letter. Did I somehow make it seem like it wasn't? Help me out here!

[Drake]

I am so sorry....I'm not trying to be obtuse but I'm just stuck. I just can't grasp what you are trying to say. Could you restate it, or slip-n-slide into it from farther away with the background of what is behind it? I feel dumb but I do want to understand your point.


It is included as part of the letter. Did I somehow make it seem like it wasn't? Help me out here!

Ok..... flying in for a ducky landing after circling the pond....... it may not be a perfect landing but I’ll try...

....in post 25 you indicated that the statement I quoted was not part of the content of the actual letter. In post 26 I argued that it was.... then you seemed to acknowledge it was but then said in the “letter itself” indicating Brother Lees statement was not part of the letter itself... throwing me off ...

Here is the point I am making......That the letter itself includes the statement about this being a matter of the ministry not the Lords recovery by Brother Lee. It is part of the letter itself since it is above the signatory of the letter. Therefore, I asked if your problem was that the letter itself is contradictory seeming to say two different things, that is, in the front part of the letter itself it says a matter of the Lord’s recovery... but in the latter part of the letter the statement by Brother Lee says not a matter of the Lords recovery.

The difference is meaningful.... if Brother Lees statement is not in the actual letter but only found elsewhere then the authors of the letter could have inadvertently or deliberately left out Brother Lees statement.... but if the authors included it in the body of the letter itself then Brother Lees statement must be taken as part of the definition of the letter since the authors took the time to include it juxtaposed next to their statement.

That is what I meant.... sorry I probably confused us.

Drake

[Trapped]

Ok..... flying in for a ducky landing after circling the pond....... it may not be a perfect landing but I’ll try...

....in post 25 you indicated that the statement I quoted was not part of the content of the actual letter. In post 26 I argued that it was.... then you seemed to acknowledge it was but then said in the “letter itself” indicating Brother Lees statement was not part of the letter itself... throwing me off ...

Here is the point I am making......That the letter itself includes the statement about this being a matter of the ministry not the Lords recovery by Brother Lee. It is part of the letter itself since it is above the signatory of the letter. Therefore, I asked if your problem was that the letter itself is contradictory seeming to say two different things, that is, in the front part of the letter itself it says a matter of the Lord’s recovery... but in the latter part of the letter the statement by Brother Lee says not a matter of the Lords recovery.

The difference is meaningful.... if Brother Lees statement is not in the actual letter but only found elsewhere then the authors of the letter could have inadvertently or deliberately left out Brother Lees statement.... but if the authors included it in the body of the letter itself then Brother Lees statement must be taken as part of the definition of the letter since the authors took the time to include it juxtaposed next to their statement.

That is what I meant.

Drake


Ding! I understand now. Thanks.

I did not intend to indicate in post #25 that the statement you quoted was not part of the content of the actual letter. That was not my intention or position (as revealed by my confusion in the last post!) - I fully acknowledge from the get-go that the statement you quoted is part of the letter. I think I should have said something like "then ELSEWHERE in the letter" or "when compared to the OTHER contents of the letter" but just neglected to say that because it was obvious in my mind and isn't everyone else a mind-reader? :p

Yes, my problem is that the letter itself is contradictory seeming to say two different things. When one quote says "I don't mean x linked to z" but repeated throughout the letter is "x is linked to z", then that, in my eyes, is a problem. The one instance of "I am not talking about something in the Lord's recovery" gets swallowed up by the repeated point that there must be one publication in the Lord's recovery.

[Trapped]

Ding! I understand now. Thanks.

I did not intend to indicate in post #25 that the statement you quoted was not part of the content of the actual letter. That was not my intention or position (as revealed by my confusion in the last post!) - I fully acknowledge from the get-go that the statement you quoted is part of the letter. I think I should have said something like "then ELSEWHERE in the letter" or "when compared to the OTHER contents of the letter" but just neglected to say that because it was obvious in my mind and isn't everyone else a mind-reader? :p

Yes, my problem is that the letter itself is contradictory seeming to say two different things. When one quote says "I don't mean x linked to z" but repeated throughout the letter is "x is linked to z", then that, in my eyes, is a problem. The one instance of "I am not talking about something in the Lord's recovery" gets swallowed up by the repeated point that there must be one publication in the Lord's recovery.


In my eyes the ramifications are significant.

The quote states that the genuineness of a local church is not determined by whether or not that church "takes the ministry" (which I have to assume means Nee/Lee's ministry?).

It then goes on to explain that the one trumpet should be in the Lord's ministry, rather than in the Lord's recovery, indicating that a church that does not take the ministry/one trumpet is still a genuine local church. Since ministry is juxtaposed with recovery, the implication is that if the letter stated the one trumpet should be in the Lord's recovery, then churches that do not take the ministry are thus not genuine local churches.

The problem is, the letter states that - one trumpet in the Lord's recovery - in spades.

[Drake]

Ding! I understand now. Thanks.

I did not intend to indicate in post #25 that the statement you quoted was not part of the content of the actual letter. That was not my intention or position (as revealed by my confusion in the last post!) - I fully acknowledge from the get-go that the statement you quoted is part of the letter. I think I should have said something like "then ELSEWHERE in the letter" or "when compared to the OTHER contents of the letter" but just neglected to say that because it was obvious in my mind and isn't everyone else a mind-reader? :p

Yes, my problem is that the letter itself is contradictory seeming to say two different things. When one quote says "I don't mean x linked to z" but repeated throughout the letter is "x is linked to z", then that, in my eyes, is a problem. The one instance of "I am not talking about something in the Lord's recovery" gets swallowed up by the repeated point that there must be one publication in the Lord's recovery.

Ok Trapped... thanks for the clarification.

Prior to this conversation, I never considered there to be a perceived contradiction between the ministry and the Lord's recovery.... because in my mind they are related but not synonyms. When I hear the ministry I think of the work of the gifts to the Body.. and when I think about the Lord's recovery I think about the actions that God has directed in various era's to recover His original purpose to establish His kingdom on earth, that is to bring the Lord back and depose the evil powers and take over the earth with His saints.

Therefore, I see your point in what appears like an obvious contradiction... the wording appears to be contradictory right on the surface. However, I see no substantive contradiction...so I'll explain my thoughts using the document itself... since that is the point of this thread.

Therefore, we have two seeming contradictory statements:

1) I'll use one from your list which should cover most of the similar statements since this one sounds most contradictory: 4. "sixth paragraph: the sounding of the one trumpet in the Lord’s recovery today."

2) And this one near the end: " The title of this message does not say “no uncertain sounding of the trumpet in the Lord’s recovery” but “in the Lord’s ministry.” I am not talking about something in the Lord’s recovery, but I am talking about the ministry."

The reason I labored on the point about both statements being in the letter is because if they weren't then it could easily be understood that the authors inadvertently or deliberately left out Brother Lee's statement and in so doing showed they would have not been expressing his thoughts on the matter... and as has been said many times in this forum the blended brothers are faithful to Brother Lee's word to them.

So, with the two statements above there are four possibilities of what the authors intended to mean by including both statements:

First, they may have intended the reader to understand that the first statement (penned by the authors) was their meaning but not the second. That is not logical.... why include the second statement at all then.

Or secondly, they may have intended the reader to understand that the second statement (by Brother Lee) was their intended meaning but not the first. That is even less sensible because they are the authors of the first statement!

Third option is that the authors did not mean either statements to be their intended meaning. That would be ridiculous.

Fourth then and lastly , the authors included both statements because they believed that both statements are the intended meaning. This really is the only logical choice. If the one publication had been penned and released by a single author then it might be reasoned that the author was out of touch ... but since it was probably at least 8, 10, or a dozen brothers reviewing and agreeing on the release of this document, its content, and its intended meaning, then it is of a surety that they meant both seemingly contradictory statements to be true... and they were perfectly comfortable juxtaposing them for public consumption.

If that is the case, and the logic favors that view, then the only question is how two seemingly contradictory statements are in fact not contradictory in the minds of the authors?

I'll pause here before providing my own point of view on that last question.

thanks
Drake

[Trapped]

(to save forum space I won't quote Drake's post)


I agree that it was probably a number of brothers who wrote/reviewed/edited/agreed on the document. Having said that, I personally think it is a very clunky, repetitive, unclear, undefined, bloated, meandering piece of work which could have used several additional months of refining, revising, consolidating, and clarifying. And I say that without a derisive tone.....to me it really is a clunky manatee that isn't up to the normally stringent standards of editing and clarity that LSM holds itself to.

The cynical side of me actually thinks that the letter is that way by design - when something like this is this long and wandering and repeatedly uses undefined nebulous phrases like "the one trumpeting" then that is one tactic that can be used to impose a particular impression without being on the hook to explicitly state it.

My own view on the contradictory statements, which is going to sound cynical again, is that you are giving the authors too much credit that it was intentional to include both statements and hold them as not contradictory. My view is simply that they threw in the quote in question so they could point to it when the inevitable accusation would come that LSM is issuing an edict to all the churches that they can only use LSM materials. The quote in question allows them to say "see, the ministry is not a requirement of a genuine local church" and "see, we aren't restricting the recovery, just the ministry". Even though the rest of the letter says it clearly, there is a portion they can wave on high to try to convince those who disagree otherwise.

Interested in your point of view!

[UntoHim]

... very clunky, repetitive, unclear, undefined, bloated, meandering piece of work.
Wow, Trapped...you just described the "ministry" of one brother Witness Lee! Well maybe this explains just how and why these follows came up with something so clunky, repetitive, unclear, undefined, bloated and meandering...they had been absorbing Witness Lee so long that anything they ever produced was bound to come out just like one of those "Life Studies". And By Golly Gee Whiz if these guys didn't disappoint. The One Publication "is what it is". The first time I read it I thought it was actually written directly by Lee. Of course most of us know that it pretty much was written by Witness Lee. There is nothing in the One Publication declaration that did not come straight from Witness Lee's lips at one time or another.

The cynical side of me actually thinks that the letter is that way by design - when something like this is this long and wandering and repeatedly uses undefined nebulous phrases like "the one trumpeting" then that is one tactic that can be used to impose a particular impression without being on the hook to explicitly state it.
;)

[Nell]

I agree that it was probably a number of brothers who wrote/reviewed/edited/agreed on the document. Having said that, I personally think it is a very clunky, repetitive, unclear, undefined, bloated, meandering piece of work which could have used several additional months of refining, revising, consolidating, and clarifying. And I say that without a derisive tone.....to me it really is a clunky manatee that isn't up to the normally stringent standards of editing and clarity that LSM holds itself to.

The cynical side of me actually thinks that the letter is that way by design - when something like this is this long and wandering and repeatedly uses undefined nebulous phrases like "the one trumpeting" then that is one tactic that can be used to impose a particular impression without being on the hook to explicitly state it.

My own view on the contradictory statements, which is going to sound cynical again, is that you are giving the authors too much credit that it was intentional to include both statements and hold them as not contradictory. My view is simply that they threw in the quote in question so they could point to it when the inevitable accusation would come that LSM is issuing an edict to all the churches that they can only use LSM materials. The quote in question allows them to say "see, the ministry is not a requirement of a genuine local church" and "see, we aren't restricting the recovery, just the ministry". Even though the rest of the letter says it clearly, there is a portion they can wave on high to try to convince those who disagree otherwise.

Interested in your point of view!

Trapped,

This post is a masterpiece of breaking down “the ministry of doublespeak”. Well done, bro.

Nell

[Ohio]

Trapped,
This post is a masterpiece of breaking down “the ministry of doublespeak”. Well done, bro.

Well said, Nell.

Spiritualized legalese by the masters.

Reminds me of all the "new" teachings the Exclusive Brethren came up with after every excommunication and division they instigated. That's the beauty of being in the "recovery."

[awareness]

While y'all go on about particulars, I must point out that One Publication is the same thing as The People's Republic of China declaring that there will be only one internet provider in China.

Then LSM becomes the gatekeeper mainly of Nee (they have copyright on Lee - and non-Recovery Christians like Nee). It's just LSM trying to eliminate all competition. It's a corporation holding to the bottom-line at any cost. It's about mammon. It's the only business Lee could pull off. Another of his business scams ... like Daystar ... and his history of ripping off saints.

But it's working. After all, how many other publishers of Nee do we have left today?

[Ohio]

A number of great papers were written on this subject of One Publication.

Here is a brief response by Professor and Brother Nigel Tomes to Benson Philips, President of LSM, who instituted this disastrous policy which later divided all the LC's:

Nigel Tomes, "If One Publication is causing Division, How Many Publications will create Oneness?" - A Rejoinder to Bro. Benson Phillips. (http://www.concernedbrothers.com/OP/RejoinderToBensonPhillipsSharingWashingtonDCNov200 6.pdf)

A number of other articles are published on the Concerned Brothers site (http://www.concernedbrothers.com/English.html) such as these:

Nigel Tomes' "PUBLICATION WORK IN THE LORD’S RECOVERY” – ANALYSIS & RESPONSE - Response and Fellowship to LSM's Booklet on One Publication. (English (http://www.concernedbrothers.com/OP/Nigel%20response%20to%20one%20publication%20Englis h.pdf))
Nigel Tomes' Letter to the Letter from Southern California Coworkers. (English (http://www.concernedbrothers.com/OP/Response_To_SCalCowkrsLetter_Nigel_Sept05_English. pdf))

Nigel Tomes, "The Bible: Our Only Standard" (English (http://www.concernedbrothers.com/Bible/Bible_is_our_only_standard_Nigel_Tomes.pdf))
Nigel Tomes, "Honesty in History - Aginst Historical Revisionism" (English (http://www.concernedbrothers.com/HR/Historical_Revisionism___Nigel.pdf))
Nigel Tomes, "The One Publication Campaign" (English (http://www.concernedbrothers.com/OP/Campaign_For_One_Publication.pdf))
Nigel Tomes, "LSM’s Eisegesis - How Not To Interpret the Bible!" (English (http://www.concernedbrothers.com/Eisegesis/Eisegesis.pdf))

[awareness]

“The Scriptural Basis of One Publication” – According to the LSM-brothers
The LSM-brothers assert that ‘One Publication’
“is solidly based on many fundamental
Scriptural principles, including the following:

1. the uniqueness of the teaching and fellowship of the apostles,
2. the apostles teaching the same thing in every church,
3. the Lord's speaking to one church being His speaking to all of the churches,
4. the oneness of the Body of Christ,
5. the one accord,
6. thinking the same thing,
7. speaking the same thing,
8. the one ministry of the New Testament,
9. the one work with one goal, and
10. serving in the one flow of the Lord's move.”


Sounds like The One Publican in the local church is tantamount to The Book of Mormon to the LDS ... minus Moroni and the golden plates ... but with Nee and Lee as their idols.

[Ohio]

With these many demands, just stick to the Bible, the One Publication Policy by LSM negates them all.

[awareness]

With these many demands, just stick to the Bible, the One Publication Policy by LSM negates them all.
The LDS have Joseph Smith Jr. and Brigham Young. They organized the Church of Christ, later LDS, calling it a restoration of the early Christian church.

The local church have Nee and Lee, claiming the same thing. And they have their Book of Mormon. They just call it One Publication ; Their canon ; Their 'book of Mormon.'

Which one is better? They're both personality cults -- for them they have Smith Jr. & Young, for the LC they have Nee and Lee. What I'd like to know is, which one is less of a cult than the other?

My judgement is biased ... skewed, if you will. I fell for the Nee-Lee. So that's not a cult as much as the LDS to me.

But upon closer look, I'm not so sure.

[Trapped]

Fourth then and lastly , the authors included both statements because they believed that both statements are the intended meaning. This really is the only logical choice. If the one publication had been penned and released by a single author then it might be reasoned that the author was out of touch ... but since it was probably at least 8, 10, or a dozen brothers reviewing and agreeing on the release of this document, its content, and its intended meaning, then it is of a surety that they meant both seemingly contradictory statements to be true... and they were perfectly comfortable juxtaposing them for public consumption.

If that is the case, and the logic favors that view, then the only question is how two seemingly contradictory statements are in fact not contradictory in the minds of the authors?

I'll pause here before providing my own point of view on that last question.

thanks
Drake


Hi Drake,

If you are still interested in providing your point of view on this, I am also still interested to hear it. Hope the cynical bents communicated in my view didn't turn you off.

Thanks,

Trapped

[Drake]

In your analogy, as I understand it, the various LSM-related entities are akin to the various colleges in a university, and the blended co-workers are akin to university management but who are involved in different colleges (LSM-related entities).

In this analogy, the students and alumni are the saints in the local churches. If the university is for the producing and building up of educated graduates (i.e. if the ministry is for the churches), why is the university sending a letter out to it's alumni telling them they should be restricted to only read what that university puts out? If the university did a good job, the students should be amply equipped to discern for themselves what will further their academic/human (spiritual) growth.

Trapped,

There are no alumni in my analogy. It's an active campus. We are here until the Lord returns.. there are few graduates in this life,.. Paul indicated he was, martyrs I'm sure are too, etc. As long as we are on this earth we are not graduates for the most part.

Analogies eventually break down but this one still has legs so I'll keep going with it...

Faculty may teach in different colleges as well as have administration duties for the university that are different from their teaching or other duties.. Yet, they are all part of one University. The faculty and the students all have one common mission and there are practices and codes and procedures and norms and rules and etc.

Here's are the dots... if you look at everything this ministry is involved in, the many "colleges" dedicated to a specific purpose, its stated purpose to "higher education" more generally, and the serving ones who carry out the mission of the "university" then it is a whole..... and the whole is greater than the sum of pieces. Whether it is the carrying out of the mission through the many pieces (LSM the publishing arm and the trainings and conferences, DCP, Bibles for America, Bibles for "country", Affirmation & Critique, Lord's Move in Europe, Life-study of the Bible broadcast, etc.) by the many serving ones (blended brothers and others who have consecrated their time and effort), or the hundreds of thousands (students in analogy) whom the Lord has called to this way it is a singular.

Breaking it down is like trying to define the "American Way of Life" by its parts and judging the whole based on what you find in the parts. "How can the part speak for the whole?". So I think, whereas the comments made on the One Publication document are signed by "faculty".. it represents the sentiment of the whole body involved in the university and all the colleges. Technically speaking, not being cute at all, only the signatories own the content of the document. However, in general, I believe it expresses the sentiment of all the pieces, parts, people, etc.

Why isn't that okay with you, Trapped?

Drake

[Drake]

Brother Drake, what happens if we don't adhere to the one publication?

Brother awareness,

The publisher decides what to publish. You decide what you will read.

Yet, from your history you might very well mean something like "if a brother stands up in a meeting and starts quoting Joel Osteen what will happen?".

Or are you referencing something else entirely?

Thanks
Drake

[aron]

70x7 indicates there is no true repentance... the ownership falls to the offended..

Completely false. Repentance is repentance. The issue is, if someone repents, and is forgiven, and then sins again, do you have to forgive a second time? What of a third? A fourth? Seven times?

If 70 X 7 indicates "no true repentance" then you don't have to forgive them 70 X 7. But you do.

If you read the gospels, Peter sinned repeatedly, and repented repeatedly. And Jesus forgave him repeatedly. Jesus was teaching that he had to do the same to others.

If you seek out the person who sinned and they repent you are obligated to forgive them just as Christ forgave you. If they refuse to hear you then you are obligated to ultimately tell it to the church.

Yes. And Matthew 18 is totally applicable to Witness Lee. He showed no mercy on Christianity. Every fault, and there are many, was repeatedly paraded in front of his audience. But when it came to the LC and his ministry, he begged us to "forgive his messy kitchen". Completely two-faced.

[Trapped]

Trapped,

There are no alumni in my analogy. It's an active campus. We are here until the Lord returns.. there are few graduates in this life,.. Paul indicated he was, martyrs I'm sure are too, etc. As long as we are on this earth we are not graduates for the most part.

Analogies eventually break down but this one still has legs so I'll keep going with it...

Faculty may teach in different colleges as well as have administration duties for the university that are different from their teaching or other duties.. Yet, they are all part of one University. The faculty and the students all have one common mission and there are practices and codes and procedures and norms and rules and etc.

Here's are the dots... if you look at everything this ministry is involved in, the many "colleges" dedicated to a specific purpose, its stated purpose to "higher education" more generally, and the serving ones who carry out the mission of the "university" then it is a whole..... and the whole is greater than the sum of pieces. Whether it is the carrying out of the mission through the many pieces (LSM the publishing arm and the trainings and conferences, DCP, Bibles for America, Bibles for "country", Affirmation & Critique, Lord's Move in Europe, Life-study of the Bible broadcast, etc.) by the many serving ones (blended brothers and others who have consecrated their time and effort), or the hundreds of thousands (students in analogy) whom the Lord has called to this way it is a singular.

Breaking it down is like trying to define the "American Way of Life" by its parts and judging the whole based on what you find in the parts. "How can the part speak for the whole?". So I think, whereas the comments made on the One Publication document are signed by "faculty".. it represents the sentiment of the whole body involved in the university and all the colleges. Technically speaking, not being cute at all, only the signatories own the content of the document. However, in general, I believe it expresses the sentiment of all the pieces, parts, people, etc.

Why isn't that okay with you, Trapped?

Drake


The analogy is poor and doesn't provide additional benefit above just talking about the actual entities/parties themselves using their actual descriptions.

What does "one publication work in the Lord's recovery" mean, Drake?

[Ohio]

What does "one publication work in the Lord's recovery" mean, Drake?
And how in the world could they use this "one publication work" to excommunicate Titus Chu of Cleveland, Ohio and Dong Yu Lan of Sao Paulo, Brazil, who were ministering, writing, and publishing their own messages?

[Drake]

The analogy is poor and doesn't provide additional benefit above just talking about the actual entities/parties themselves using their actual descriptions.

What does "one publication work in the Lord's recovery" mean, Drake?

Hi Trapped,

I liked the analogy.... but the explanation using the analogy didn't work for you.. ok, let's try this. What follows is my point of view. Any use of plural pronouns is based on my belief that what I think is also what many or perhaps most current members in the local churches would concur with.

The Lord's recovery began in earnest with Martin Luther starting with the recovery of justification by faith as the significant turning point in the Lord's recovery. Since that time the Lord has continued to recover scriptural truths through various servants He raised up. These divine truths were hidden especially during the time that the Bible was locked away. These biblical truths are every believer's heritage and include but not limited to those related to God Himself, the eternal plan of God, the Triune God, the incarnation of God, Christ's Person, the incarnation of Christ, the death of Christ, the resurrection of Christ, the eternal life of God, the Spirit, the life-giving Spirit, the mingled Sspirit, Christ's redemption and God's complete salvation (spirit, soul, and body), the believers, the universal church, the Bride of Christ, the Body of Christ, the church as the Kingdom of God, the building of God, the Firstborn Son and His many brothers, the local churches, the ground of the church, the overcomers, the reward and punishment of the believers, the life practices (e.g. calling on the Lord, pray-reading the Word, etc.), the meeting life including the functioning of all the members to build up the Body of Christ and consummate the age, the preaching of the gospel and the spreading of His word, and the ultimate consummation of the union of the Triune God with His believers as the great corporate entity and shining as the New Jerusalem for eternity.

There are others but that is a representative summary.

We consider these biblical divine truths, life practices, and related matters as the spiritual inheritance of every christian. We recognize that in the last hundred years the Lord raised up two brothers through whom He revealed several of these divine matters in a fresh and in finer detail, brothers Watchman Nee and Witness Lee. We consider our place in the divine history of the Lord's recovery as the latest in the line of beneficiaries of these riches and we also consider it our responsibility to preserve, practice, publish, and carry out through various ministries the one ministry that God has entrusted to us. Our burden is to share what we believe the Lord has entrusted to us (partial list mentioned above) with the local churches and all believers and unbelievers alike through publications, trainings, conferences, radio broadcasts, internet broadcasts, gospel preaching, Bible distribution and other various outreach programs and therefore, most of these items are available for free without charge. We regard participation in the local churches and this ministry as a personal matter between each believer and the Lord Himself and we consider it a special calling that without we would have no reason to exist as a distinct group.

Again, I use the plural pronoun "we" to mean it is my informed opinion that my point of view expressed above is the intent of the One Publication and is shared by the vast majority of the believers in the local churches and that is what is meant by" one publication work in the Lord's recovery".

Hope that helps.

Drake

[Nell]

...
By titling the letter "Publication Work in the Lord's recovery", it is communicated right out of the gate that the practices put forth in the document of "being restricted in one publication" are to be adopted by those hundreds of thousands of people in the Lord's recovery. If it is just LSM stating that it will only publish Nee or Lee, which is what you said it is, "in the Lord's recovery" has no business being there. ...


Another question: The LSM has a website. https://www.lsm.org/ which clearly states:

"Living Stream Ministry
Publisher of Watchman Nee & Witness Lee
Living Stream Ministry publishes the works of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee, providing the authoritative and definitive collections of treasures from these two servants of the Lord Jesus Christ. The writings of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee focus on the enjoyment of the divine life, which all the believers possess, and on the building up of the church, the goal of God's work with man in this age."

Why isn't the "One Publication" edict published on its front page? Otherwise, it shouldn't exist at all. Another example of LC/LSM subterfuge.

Nell

[aron]

And how in the world could they use this "one publication work" to excommunicate Titus Chu of Cleveland, Ohio and Dong Yu Lan of Sao Paulo, Brazil, who were ministering, writing, and publishing their own messages?

I think this is important because otherwise one may think "one publication work" is a voluntary restriction by a publisher to limit themselves to one source: "Nee and Lee". But in actuality, or reality, or truthfulness, it's a fiat, an edict, an imposition by a publisher on all who attempt to meet together as the church in that locality. Anyone who tries to minister in that locality from what God has shown them will get excommunicated, as Chu and Dong were.

So, for example, if God shows me that "all your waves and breakers have gone over me" in Psalm 42:7 is the same phrase Jonah used (2:3), typology similar as well to Psalm 18:4 and 18:16, and that since Jesus strongly identified with Jonah's experience, this may be worth ministering to the Christian flock, suddenly I'm a rebel because Witness Lee said these psalms were natural human concepts. Like Chu & Dong, suddenly I'm "thinking differently" and "speaking differently".

As soon as God shines something to you in the Local Church assembly from His Word, you're in danger of being called ambitious and divisive, drawing others after yourself; you'll either be silenced, marginalized, or pushed out of the one-church-per-city assembly. Because in truth, or reality, it's a one-ministry-per-city assembly. The "recovery of one church per city" was a ruse, a lever, an engine to divide the flock, so that it might come solely under the thrall of a single person.

Paul had written, "Whenever you come together, each one has" a portion to share (1 Cor 14:26); the "one publication work" edict, and its enforcement on those like Chu & Dong, shows that in the LC, whenever they come together, only one person has a portion to share. The rest must "get in line", per Watchman Nee, and be "one with the current speaking", per the Blendeds of LSM. The Nee/Lee ministry as promoted by LSM is the sole reason they exist as a distinct group; it's the person of the LC, not Jesus Christ.We regard participation in the local churches and this ministry as a personal matter between each believer and the Lord Himself and we consider it a special calling that without we would have no reason to exist as a distinct group.

In this they show themselves as spiritual heirs not of the "recovery of Luther" but of "the restrictions of the RCC" - anyone who gets new light from God's word must either keep their mouths shut or risk be expelled.

[Drake]

In this they show themselves as spiritual heirs not of the "recovery of Luther" but of "the restriction of the RCC" - anyone who gets new light from God's word must either keep their mouths shut or be expelled.

Nnnnnnnnnnnnn..... no. :rolleyes:

Yet, the response above indicates someone who is in a perpetual state of being ticked off.

If I said “what beautiful sunrise we had this morning” you’d respond with “This just shows those in the local churches think the sun rises only for them”.

Drake

[Ohio]

Nnnnnnnnnnnnn..... no. :rolleyes:

Yet, the response above indicates someone who is in a perpetual state of being ticked off.

If I said “what beautiful sunrise we had this morning” you’d respond with “This just shows those in the local churches think the sun rises only for them”.

Drake

Drake, didn't you just claim that *justification by faith* was a part of your spiritual heritage, and protected by your One Publication Mandate?

That's as basic as the sunrise for all believers, and LSM would copyright it if they could.

[ZNPaaneah]

Hi Trapped,

I liked the analogy.... but the explanation using the analogy didn't work for you.. ok, let's try this. What follows is my point of view. Any use of plural pronouns is based on my belief that what I think is also what many or perhaps most current members in the local churches would concur with. I also concur and yet probably disagree greatly with many in the Local church.

the ground of the church...

I also think that the ground of the church belongs on this list, however, I feel the Apostle's fellowship on the ground is in Ephesians -- the seven ones, and has nothing to do with the geographic boundary of a city.

There are others but that is a representative summary.

I don't think so, there were several other truths that are very significant that I learned from my time exposed to WL's ministry. I go into great detail over these in my discussion on the book of James.

we also consider it our responsibility to preserve, practice, publish, and carry out through various ministries the one ministry that God has entrusted to us. Our burden is to share what we believe the Lord has entrusted to us (partial list mentioned above) with the local churches and all believers and unbelievers alike through publications, trainings, conferences, radio broadcasts, internet broadcasts, gospel preaching, Bible distribution and other various outreach programs and therefore, most of these items are available for free without charge.

What I have put in bold is a perfectly reasonable explanation for why LSM would exercise editorial oversight over what they do and do not publish. However, it is not a justification for imposing that philosophy on the church. Nor is it justification for overriding the authority of the elders in what they can and cannot preach, whether or not they can publish what they speak, etc.

[Ohio]

I think this is important because otherwise one may think "one publication work" is a voluntary restriction by a publisher to limit themselves to one source: "Nee and Lee". But in actuality, or reality, or truthfulness, it's a fiat, an edict, an imposition by a publisher on all who attempt to meet together as the church in that locality. Anyone who tries to minister in that locality from what God has shown them will get excommunicated, as Chu and Dong were.

The Super-Blendeds at LSM told Titus Chu this. It's all in writing.
"We have a voluntary policy, just like Nee had in China, to have only one publisher in the Recovery, and that's us at Living Stream Ministry. Since you didn't "volunteer" the way we told you to, we are kicking you out of our little Recovery Club. Henceforth, you are no longer permitted to speak to any Local Churches."
The Judaizers from Jerusalem basically had the same attitude towards Apostle Paul and others working with him.

Some have felt that the Blended's decision was all about money, and that's partly true, but their lust for power and control drove their decision.

[Ohio]

As soon as God shines something to you in the Local Church assembly from His Word, you're in danger of being called ambitious and divisive, drawing others after yourself; you'll either be silenced, marginalized, or pushed out of the one-church-per-city assembly. Because in truth, or reality, it's a one-ministry-per-city assembly. The "recovery of one church per city" was a ruse, a lever, an engine to divide the flock, so that it might come solely under the thrall of a single person.

The Blendeds have replaced the "one man speaking" to the "speaking of one man" from the last training.

The Blended Training Speakers are so full of themselves that they demand every message given in every Local Church be a regurgitation of what they spoke in the last Training.

[UntoHim]

I have merged several related threads into this one thread entitled "One Publication". I have also transferred a number of recent related posts on the "Spiritual Authority" thread to this thread.

Let's continue the discussion regarding The One Publication here on this thread. There are many great posts made over the years. I suggest that everyone take a few minutes and review what has already been posted.
-

[UntoHim]

Former Local Church member, Philip van Dijk of the Netherlands, recently produced this polemic regarding the One Publication Document.

COMMENTS ON THE ONE PUBLICATION DOCUMENT PRODUCED BY THE BLENDED BROTHERS OF LIVING STREAM MINISTRY ON 30 JUNE 2005
By Philip van Dijk
21 December 2016

The blended brothers of Living Stream Ministry's fixation with using only one publication, only one evangelistic method, only one gold bar translation i.e. the Recovery Version of the Bible etc. as a testimony for others outside the Lord's Recovery had becoming increasingly clearer in my mind and in my spirit after reading through their document at www.lsm.org/onepublication:
The following words are found in Paul's and Sosthenes' first letter to the Corinthians:
'... Now there are different gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are different ministries, but the same Lord. And there are different results, but the same God who produces all of them in everyone. To each person the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the benefit of all ...' (NET)
From the above mentioned passage these brothers revealed that there are different ministries (i.e. kinds of service) within the body of Christ and not that there is only one ministry as claimed within the above mentioned document.
The New Covenant Scriptures are completely silent concerning what believers publish in writing regarding their one faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
After rereading the document, I was immediately struck by the following texts, that had not struck me the first time when I had read it, as being indeed seriously questionable:
'... In a meeting with the brothers to whom he committed the responsibility for Living Stream Ministry, Brother Lee said, “My burden is for the recovery based on the interpretation of Brother Nee and me. I am the continuation of Brother Nee; I would like to have a continuation of me, and this needs a corporation ... The Living Stream corporation will continue this ministry” (from unpublished notes of a meeting of Living Stream, July 12, 1996). He placed the direction of this corporation for the continuation and publication of the ministry in the hands of a group of blended brothers, who labor to fulfill this charge before the Lord ...'
'... In every way, this practice of passing everything that we publish through a discerning check is best for all of us and best for the sounding of the one trumpet in the Lord’s recovery today …'


(1) What really bugged me after rereading the document was: Where is the Headship and the Lordship of our Lord Jesus Christ Himself in this specific recovery if it truly belongs to Him and Him alone?
(2) If the Lord's Recovery is, as our brother Witness Lee claims, nothing more than a burden based on an interpretation of Watchman Nee and himself, then is this recovery maybe nothing more than another institutional denomination, something this recovery of the Lord vehemently sought to depart from in the first place?
(3) Isn't an institutional denomination just another word for a corporation with a religious agenda and (a) human founder(s) other than Jesus Christ Himself?
(4) So, if all literature published by Living Stream Ministry is the sounding of the one and only trumpet for this present-day Lord's Recovery, are these 2 entities then not one and the same thing in reality?

There were more comments about the document that seemed more intriguing and insightful than I had previously thought:
'... He [Watchman Nee] asked me to help in the publication work. I [Witness Lee] did write some books, among which were a book on the genealogy of Christ, a translation of part of Pember's Earth's Earliest Ages, and some books on the kingdom of the heavens. I [Witness Lee] never published anything by myself ...'

Isn't Witness Lee only stating the obvious by claiming that he never published anything by himself? Watchman Nee had actually asked him to help with the publication work in the first place! Aren't these just basic circular statements?

'... I [Witness Lee] always mailed my manuscript to the Gospel Room, which was under Brother Nee and his helper. It was up to their discernment whether my manuscript should be published or not. I [Witness Lee] liked to have my writings checked as to whether there might be some inaccuracy in the truth. It is not a small matter to write a book that expounds the kingdom of the heavens. I liked my material to pass through their [Watchman Nee and brother Yu] checking. This helped and protected me. Brother Yu, the eye specialist, translated some of the mystical books, but he did not publish anything ...'

Here again, Witness Lee seems to be making more and more circular statements, for want of a better terminology. By mentioning that he (Witness Lee) then mailed manuscripts to Watchman Nee and brother Yu, because it was really Watchman Nee's publication, then claiming that he (Witness Lee) liked to have his contribution to the publication work checked because they (Watchman Nee and/or brother Yu) did not just publish anything etc. ...

'... We only had one publication. Everything was published through Brother Nee's Gospel Room because the publication is really the trumpeting. The sounding of our trumpet is not just in the verbal message but more in the publication. It bothers me that some brothers among us still put out publications ...'

Suddenly the publication work had become something far more than a publication work alone: It had become the sounding of a trumpet! Witness Lee even mentions that their (Watchman Nee's and Witness Lee's) trumpeting of the apostles' teaching had more prominence than their verbal speaking of the apostles' teaching.

But wait a minute, didn't Paul, Silvanus and Timothy mention in their first letter to the Thessalonians and didn't Paul and Sosthenes also mention in their first letter to the Corinthians
'... For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first ...' and '... in a moment, in the blinking of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed …' (NET)
that any trumpeting would be God's trumpeting when the Lord Jesus Christ returns for collecting His beautiful bride for Himself?

Regarding the previously cited sentence within the document:
'... In every way, this practice of passing everything that we publish through a discerning check is best for all of us and best for the sounding of the one trumpet in the Lord’s recovery today ...'

Are we having to make a choice between:
(1) the sounding of the trumpet as legislated by Living Stream Ministry and
(2) the sounding of the trumpet of God when the Lord returns for His beautiful bride?

Also, regarding the sounding of a trumpet mentioned in Paul's and Sosthenes' first letter to the Corinthians:
'... Now, brothers and sisters, if I come to you speaking in tongues, how will I help you unless I speak to you with a revelation or with knowledge or prophecy or teaching? It is similar for lifeless things that make a sound, like a flute or harp. Unless they make a distinction in the notes, how can what is played on the flute or harp be understood? If, for example, the trumpet makes an unclear sound, who will get ready for battle? It is the same for you. If you do not speak clearly with your tongue, how will anyone know what is being said? For you will be speaking into the air. There are probably many kinds of languages in the world, and none is without meaning. If then I do not know the meaning of a language, I will be a foreigner to the speaker and the speaker a foreigner to me. It is the same with you. Since you are eager for manifestations of the Spirit, seek to abound in order to strengthen the church ...' (NET)

Yet, the context of the trumpet in the above mentioned passage seems to be conveying that:
(1) just as believers are to understand (with their mind and their spirit) when a revelation, knowledge a prophecy or a teaching is being spoken, so too
(2) a harp and a flute needs to produce a distinctive note or melody and
(3) a trumpet needs to make a clear sound so that an army understands when to prepare for war.

Therefore, the clear sounding of a trumpet in this context does not seem to convey that the saints are called to be restricted to one ministry or even to one publication for that matter!
Even the word teaching in the above mentioned context is being referred to as a teaching that is to be understood and not that the oneness of the teaching itself is implied in this instance.

'... According to my [Witness Lee] truthful observation there is no new light or life supply there. They may contain some biblical doctrines, but any point of life or light has been adopted from the publications of Living Stream Ministry. There is nearly no item of life or light that has not been covered by our publications [Isn't this just a presumption?]. Based upon this fact, what is the need for these brothers to put out their publications? [Are we not free in Christ to do so?] Because all the publications are mine [So, it's really about ownership then?], it is hard for me to speak such a word. But I am forced to tell the truth. By putting out your own publication, you waste your time and money. You waste the money given by the saints, and you waste their time in reading what you publish. Where is the food, the life supply, and the real enlightenment in the other publications among us? [This is really going quite far, isn't it?] Be assured that there is definitely at least one major revelation in every Living Stream Ministry publication [Isn't this just a presumption?] .... If the Lord can gain ten thousand saints in the United States to go full-time with one kind of teaching, one kind of preaching, one kind of material, one kind of publication, one kind of way, and everything one kind, this will be our morale! The wise way is that we all take the full-time way and speak the same thing, think the same thing, present the same thing, and teach the same thing, having the same essence, appearance and expression. Then we will have the morale, the impact, to defeat the enemy. [Is this of the same essence regarding the oneness of the Spirit that Jesus prayed for before His crucifixion and which Paul appealed to in his letter to the Ephesians?] This is what the Lord needs! ...' [Witness Lee, Elders' Training, Book 8: The Life-pulse of the Lord's Present Move, pp. 161-164, 123-127]

What I have come to establish for myself is that in literally everything where one shared one's life in Christ, ministered His life with others etc. in the fellowship, one had to have it routinely filtered through the writings of Living Stream Ministry.
This filtering system had become the ultimate lockdown for me and eventually explained for me why my own previous attempts at discussing organic body life in Christ outside this filtering system were not being answered or were answered by answers such as '… go and read Witness Lee's Recovery Version footnotes, his Life Studies etc. about this …'
These dear fellow saints in the Lord's Recovery seem to have little individual conviction on what the Scriptures are revealing to themselves, but more specifically on the pertinent issues that I had questions on. This probably explains their regular reliance on the writings of Living Stream Ministry for having it revealed to them instead.

Philip van Dijk
Skype: philipvdijk
LinkedIn: https://nl.linkedin.com/in/philipvdijk

[aron]

Nnnnnnnnnnnnn..... no. :rolleyes:

Yet, the response above indicates someone who is in a perpetual state of being ticked off.

If I said “what beautiful sunrise we had this morning” you’d respond with “This just shows those in the local churches think the sun rises only for them”.Thanks for the flippant and substance-free response, which affirms that I'm probably on to something, here. As in the lawyerly rule: when you can't pound the facts, pound the table.

Our readers can still note that the fact of Chu & Dong being permanently banned from this group, after spending decades toiling on its behalf, subsequent to the "one publication work" edict, remains in front of us, however you wish to characterize my attitude.

[Ohio]

What I have come to establish for myself is that in literally everything where one shared one's life in Christ, ministered His life with others etc. in the fellowship, one had to have it routinely filtered through the writings of Living Stream Ministry.

This filtering system had become the ultimate lockdown for me and eventually explained for me why my own previous attempts at discussing organic body life in Christ outside this filtering system were not being answered or were answered by answers such as '… go and read Witness Lee's Recovery Version footnotes, his Life Studies etc. about this …'

These dear fellow saints in the Lord's Recovery seem to have little individual conviction on what the Scriptures are revealing to themselves, but more specifically on the pertinent issues that I had questions on. This probably explains their regular reliance on the writings of Living Stream Ministry for having it revealed to them instead.

Philip van Dijk

Great conclusions. Basically LC folks have a second-hand God. They only know God thru the conduit of Lee's books.

The teachings of Lee have become their pipeline, their "filter," their mediator, their advocate with the Father.

The Son of Man is outside, at the door knocking, waiting for some to open the door and dine with Him.

[awareness]

the church as the Kingdom of God
If by 'the church' you mean the Lee local church, then, why are you defaming the Kingdom of God?

[aron]

The teachings of Lee have become the LC pipeline, their "filter," their mediator, their advocate with the Father..

This is how powerful and all-encompassing this mediator can be. When I left the LC, after several years of living in group housing and going to meetings every day (college meetings, home meetings, ministry meetings, small-group meetings, Sunday morning "Lord's Table" meetings) I couldn't read the Bible or any other Christian text without the "voice in my head" saying, "That's not God's economy" or whatever it was saying. Every external stimulus I received had a ready-made ministry-supplied response, and it was continual. It took several years for me to begin to assess what was front of me on its own terms, absent the ministry filter.

It's a very powerful thought-control programme; people who feel the first adrenaline rush of being loved, needed, wanted, of having all the answers at hand, need to be warned what it's like once you get inside. You literally lose the ability to think. Everything becomes conditioned response. The "One Publication" edict is an initial attempt, post-Lee, to intimidate any who might presume to use their God-given mental faculties.

[Ohio]

It's a very powerful thought-control programme; people who feel the first adrenaline rush of being loved, needed, wanted, of having all the answers at hand, need to be warned what it's like once you get inside. You literally lose the ability to think. Everything becomes conditioned response. The "One Publication" edict is an initial attempt, post-Lee, to intimidate any who might presume to use their God-given mental faculties.
The One Publication Bull was also used as the latest purging mechanism for all their adherents. Even though thousands of precious saints departed, they successfully used this purge to eliminate perceived rivals like DYL and TC.

LC history has long been filled with these "storms," or as TC would call them periods of "self-destruction." There was a time when I considered every storm was an attack by God's enemy. Later I felt that we were our own worst enemy, and like TC that we had serious internal issues which caused our somewhat regular "self-destruct" events.

Now I see the LC's following the same Exclusive Brethren pattern of "purging." Leadership would make unsavory decisions, offensive to most, apparently just to see who would stick it out to the end. They manufactured a crisis where none existed. Draw a line in the sand, and force everyone to choose sides. Think back to every other storm -- some notable leader(s) would be forced out. Whether TA Sparks, Max et.al., Ingalls, Mallon, So, Dong, Chu, the "storm" was manufactured to purge apparent rivals, just like what the Exclusive Brethren have done.

[aron]

The One Publication Bull was also used as the latest purging mechanism for all their adherents. .

I remember Witness Lee telling us, "I don't care how many people remain... if we have just a few who are absolute, that is sufficient" (I am paraphrasing).

This was after a recruiting binge in which we were told if we all did such-and-such, we'd each get 2 new ones per year who'd get two more &c and the "recovery" would fill the earth and Lord would return in 15 years.

Then, there'd be a "storm" or some big disappointment and WL would make a remark like he didn't care how many left and how many stayed, as long as those who stayed were pliable.

The One Pub Bull was the Blendeds letting the rank-and-file know that even though the Ascended Master was gone, nothing had changed: recruit everyone you can, and we'll drive out all who aren't immune to ministry excesses and abuses.

Meet the new boss. .

[aron]

Thanks for the flippant and substance-free response, which affirms that I'm probably on to something...

Actually Drake's post may have had substance: perhaps my writings show a combative spirit. Something worth pointing out, and that I should take as from the Lord.

But at the same time, why don't we say that Witness Lee putting his admittedly nonspiritual sons in positions where they could (and did) repeatedly stumble church members showed us something of his inner state, his attitude or "heart" (the typical LC metric to assess others' motives - "his heart was dark"); and when current LSM President Benson Philips was railroading the Rapoports or the Andersons or other scapegoats, it showed us something of his motives, and so forth?

Why is it that the Ascended Master's actions, or those of his lackeys, always get put into some judgment-free zone, while everyone else gets castigated for their admittedly poor motives? Again, the parable in Matthew 18 of the servant harshly judging others while begging his own indulgence comes to mind.

[Trapped]

I liked the analogy.... but the explanation using the analogy didn't work for you.. ok, let's try this. What follows is my point of view. Any use of plural pronouns is based on my belief that what I think is also what many or perhaps most current members in the local churches would concur with.
Again, I use the plural pronoun "we" to mean it is my informed opinion that my point of view expressed above is the intent of the One Publication and is shared by the vast majority of the believers in the local churches and that is what is meant by" one publication work in the Lord's recovery".Hi Drake,
Please forgive my analogy handicap. Ask any of my high school English teachers about how bad I was with anything metaphorical. I much prefer dealing in the concrete.

Thank you for detailing that out in such a clear way. It is wonderful the Lord has recovered so many of His truths. I am sure the Lord wants His truths to be spread throughout the earth.

You mentioned Luther. The Lord entrusted Martin Luther with the recovery of the crucial truth of justification by faith. As you described very clearly, this is part of the Lord's recovery. Who was and is allowed to publish this recovered truth? I ask the same question of the truths the Lord recovered through Guyon, Wesley, Darby, etc. They are part of the Lord's recovery. Who did at the time, and can presently, write about, publish, and spread the truths that the Lord recovered through those servants?

The Lord's truths recovered through these servants have over the years been published by a variety of sources and the benefit of that has been immeasurable and far-reaching. Where did the principle of only one entity publishing recovered truths materialize from this late in the game? That has not been the principle set forth by the Lord for the handling of any of His previous recovered truths. Has God changed His principles?

In the most real sense possible, the truths recovered by the Lord do not belong to Luther, Guyon, Wesley, Darby, JPL, Nee, Lee, LSM, or to the blended co-workers. These truths are simply what the Bible states and reveals. They belong to the Lord and are revealed in His timing to those He chooses. If there are others who want to publish and propagate the precious truths as recovered by the Lord in the last 100 years through his servants Nee and Lee, why should LSM seek to restrict or denigrate the publication and spread of these recently recovered truths by claiming all others who seek to do so are void of light? They are, as you say, every believer's heritage. What purpose does it serve to go through the hassle of stating that anyone else who publishes these same truths of the Lord are "not part of the one publication in the Lord's recovery"? Did Martin Luther only want justification by faith spread to mankind as long as he was the only one publishing this wonderful truth?

"Let His word run....."

Trapped

[aron]

The Lord's truths recovered through these servants have over the years been published by a variety of sources and the benefit of that has been immeasurable and far-reaching. Where did the principle of only one entity publishing recovered truths materialize from this late in the game? That has not been the principle set forth by the Lord for the handling of any of His previous recovered truths. Has God changed His principles?

I've made this point, as well: LSM often cites its "rich heritage", then in practice goes completely against it. Somehow, once Watchman Nee began to write (ahem, copying Penn-Lewis in his "Spiritual Man") all the revelation, which had hitherto been widespread, was now supposedly restricted to one source?

LSM admits the widespread revelation, even promotes it, pre-Nee:

Watchman Nee attended no theological schools or Bible institutes, yet he acquired an exceptional knowledge concerning God's purpose, Christ, the Spirit, and the church through his study of the Bible as well as the writings of spiritual men and women. During his early ministry, he spent one-third of his income on books by Christian authors such as D.M. Panton, Robert Govett, G.H. Pember, Jessie Penn-Lewis, T. Austin-Sparks, John Nelson Darby, William Kelly, and C.H. Mackintosh. He was brilliantly gifted in his ability to select, comprehend, discern, and memorize appropriate material. Watchman Nee gleaned all the good, scriptural points from his collection of over 3,000 of the best Christian books, including nearly all the classical Christian writings from the first century on"

http://www.witness-lee-hymns.org/lsm/watchman-nee.html

Where did all these 3,000 Christian classics come from? How many separate Christian publishing or dissemination entities?

It reminds me of the 1997 edict: "The Age of Spiritual Giants is over"; they make up rules as they go along, and expect universal compliance, and people are supposed to act like it's self-evident truth. Well, it's not. It is at best, questionable. Lo and behold, websites and online forums spring up, and anonymous posters ask questions.

[Ohio]

... we have no reason to exist as a distinct group.


Taking it out of context, I now have something from Drake to agree with!

[awareness]

... we have no reason to exist as a distinct group.
Taking it out of context, I now have something from Drake to agree with!
I noticed that statement too. Brother Drake just admitted that the Nee/Lee/LSM/Recovery group is just another sect of Christianity.

And they all have their publishing. I have among my books, publishing from many of them. I have JW publishing's, and Mormon, and even publishing's by Scientology. And some LC publishing's too. They all have their publishing. The LC is no different. And their's is not better than all the rest ... except in their own self aggrandizing -- our-tribe-is-better -- delusions.

[Drake]

You mentioned Luther. The Lord entrusted Martin Luther with the recovery of the crucial truth of justification by faith. As you described very clearly, this is part of the Lord's recovery. Who was and is allowed to publish this recovered truth? I ask the same question of the truths the Lord recovered through Guyon, Wesley, Darby, etc. They are part of the Lord's recovery. Who did at the time, and can presently, write about, publish, and spread the truths that the Lord recovered through those servants?

The Lord's truths recovered through these servants have over the years been published by a variety of sources and the benefit of that has been immeasurable and far-reaching. Where did the principle of only one entity publishing recovered truths materialize from this late in the game? That has not been the principle set forth by the Lord for the handling of any of His previous recovered truths. Has God changed His principles?

Hi Trapped,

Happy 2019 to you and yours.

Your questions are relevant. Bottom line is that God's truths are His truths and are not the exclusive rights of any minister or ministry. Once released into the public domain they are for all of God's people.

But that is not what we are talking about and the objections about "one publication" are not about that.

Though anyone can teach, preach, and publish the divine truths that have been released through all the servants you mentioned and others that God has raised up in recent years those same people cannot demand that their teachings and writings be published by the ministry that bears responsibility for publishing them!

In other words, if the publisher (LSM in this case) does not want to publish anyone's teaching then they are not obligated to. Neither can anyone claim to be a successor of the brother or brothers through whom the Lord spoke and released certain truths. Anyone can teach, preach, post, blog, and publish all they like about divine truths the Lord has released through others or spoken to them directly. Yet no one is obligated to accept, much less publish, those messages. And yet again, if a publisher, also in this case LSM, chooses to ONLY publish the messages, writings, of a certain minister(s) then they not only have the right to limit their mission but have an obligation before the Lord as well.

Some here like John Piper.... but if anyone here went to the publisher and the producer of John Piper's work and said they were a successor to John Piper and his ministry, or that their messages should be published because they are part of the ministry of John Piper, or demand that John Piper recognize them and also publish their work then Mr. Piper and those responsible for his ministry, publications, etc. would have a good chuckle.... rightfully.

One publication is not a statement about what is to be read.... but about the mission of what will be published.

Drake

[Ohio]

But that is not what we are talking about and the objections about "one publication" are not about that.

Though anyone can teach, preach, and publish the divine truths that have been released through all the servants you mentioned and others that God has raised up in recent years those same people cannot demand that their teachings and writings be published by the ministry that bears responsibility for publishing them!

In other words, if the publisher (LSM in this case) does not want to publish anyone's teaching then they are not obligated to. Neither can anyone claim to be a successor of the brother or brothers through whom the Lord spoke and released certain truths. Anyone can teach, preach, post, blog, and publish all they like about divine truths the Lord has released through others or spoken to them directly. Yet no one is obligated to accept, much less publish, those messages. And yet again, if a publisher, also in this case LSM, chooses to ONLY publish the messages, writings, of a certain minister(s) then they not only have the right to limit their mission but have an obligation before the Lord as well.

Once again Drake either does not know what LSM's quarantines were all about or he disingenuously misstates them.

Regarding the quarantines of Titus Chu of Cleveland and Dong Yu Lan of Brazil, the following are true:


Neither TC nor DYL ever required LSM to publish their writings. Both of these ministers published their own books. Contrary to Drake's comment above, LSM demanded that no minister be allowed to minister, to write, or to publish without their consent.
Neither TC nor DYL ever demanded anyone to accept or to buy their books. Contrary to Drake's comment above, it is LSM which demands that all ministers, elders, and members in the LC's buy their books, teach their books, and teach only their books.

[Kevin]

But Piper would never call himself as the Minister of the Age. He would not demand his followers @Desiring God Facebook page to read only his books.

[Drake]

But Piper would never call himself as the Minister of the Age. He would not demand his followers @Desiring God Facebook page to read only his books.

That is irrelevant.... point is he would not remain silent nor accept it if someone claimed to be his successor of any sort..... and no one demands that we only read Witness Lee's books... that is a farce.

This was the point: Some here like John Piper.... but if anyone here went to the publisher and the producer of John Piper's work and said they were a successor to John Piper and his ministry, or that their messages should be published because they are part of the ministry of John Piper, or demand that John Piper recognize them and also publish their work then Mr. Piper and those responsible for his ministry, publications, etc. would have a good chuckle.... rightfully.

Drake

[Ohio]

This is a bogus straw man argument that has nothing to do with the actual historical actions of LSM's Blendeds who instituted their One Publication Policy to silence Titus Chu and bring him under subjection to LSM.

Ironically, using Drake's wild example about John Piper, the only case I know of usurping the so-called "mantle" of the former head of a Christian Publisher is Hank Hannegraff. Read the story of how he took over Walter Martin's Christian Research Institute and then milked it dry for his own personal gains.

[UntoHim]

Though anyone can teach, preach, and publish the divine truths that have been released through all the servants you mentioned and others that God has raised up in recent years those same people cannot demand that their teachings and writings be published by the ministry that bears responsibility for publishing them!

Drake, please stop preaching to us like we're "new ones". Most of us have been around ya know, and didn't just fall off the Local Church of Witness Lee turnip truck.:rolleyes: We all can recite these LC/Living Stream talking points in our sleep.

"Though anyone can teach, preach and publish the divine truths"? Really? Who's the "anyone" you speak of here? Please be specific. Also, please relate this to what is practiced in the Local Church, since that is the theme of this thread, and indeed the the theme of this forum. Forget about John Piper. Forget about Zondervan. They are poor, poor Christianity. Stick to the subject at hand.

One publication is not a statement about what is to be read.... but about the mission of what will be published.
What's the practical difference in the Local Church? What is published by Living Stream is what is to be read by the members - both at home and in the meetings. NO OTHER PUBLICATIONS ARE ALLOWED. PERIOD. Those Local Churches that read from other publications are quickly "quarantined" and the elders of those churches vilified and called "rebellious", "evil ones" and "destroyers of the divine building". This is why The Local Church is commonly known as "The Local Church of Witness Lee" - They only publish, disseminate, promote and read the teachings of Witness Lee. (and a minute amount of the teachings of Watchman Nee)
-

[Drake]

"Though anyone can teach, preach and publish the divine truths"? Really? Who's the "anyone" you speak of here? Please be specific.

Anyone is anyone.

Don't take my words out of the context in which I spoke them. If you disagree with the context in which I spoke that statement then explain why. Happy to discuss under those circumstances.

You make the same points over and over but you don't need to recast my words to do it, do you?

Thanks,
Drake

[ZNPaaneah]

Anyone is anyone.

Amen. Paul even said the same in Philippians when he said that some preached the gospel out of envy and strife.

[ZNPaaneah]

That is irrelevant.... point is he would not remain silent nor accept it if someone claimed to be his successor of any sort..... and no one demands that we only read Witness Lee's books... that is a farce.

I had an interesting experience with this in the church in Houston many years ago. I was buying a book in the book room by Watchman Nee and the brother behind the counter recommended that I would be better served with a book by Witness Lee. I told him I had tried one and hadn't gotten anything from it.

That was a big mistake and I was so new in the LC I had no idea I had said something wrong. The ramifications included being called into a meeting with the elders of the church in Houston and being told I had 2 strikes against me and was on the verge of being excommunicated. This was right after the whole Max episode and several other saints from Houston had already been excommunicated.

But on the other hand you are right, no one "openly" demanded that I only read WL books. It was up to me to figure out what the "two strikes" were that they were talking about.

Likewise we were strongly encouraged to use footnotes and WL quotes from his books in our testimonies. No one "demanded" this but "strongly encouraged" is an accurate and fair description.