Whistleblower

[Drake]

-2 Nell,>”Not so. In fact, the Lord left it in the hands of THE CHURCH.”

Ok. Do that then. This forum is not a church.

Drake

[Nell]

-2 Nell,>”Not so. In fact, the Lord left it in the hands of THE CHURCH.”

Ok. Do that then. This forum is not a church.

Drake

Who told you that? This forum is not "a" church. It is THE church. The universal church.

The word just says "tell it to the church" with no distinction on who it is that represents the church in this matter. In fact, this forum is precisely the members of the Lord's church who need this information. We are witnesses to the whole matter. We care more for those abused than those believers who have no knowledge of Lee and his sordid sinful behavior. Anyone who has ever sat through a Witness Lee message, or purchased a Living Stream Ministry publication has a vested interested in this matter...that is...THE CHURCH.

Nell

[Ohio]

He might. There is no evidence that this forum has facilitated reconciliation, but neither is that it’s stated purpose.

Drake

I doubt you could recognize "evidence" if it hit you in the head.

[Drake]

Who told you that? This forum is not "a" church. It is THE church. The universal church.

The word just says "tell it to the church" with no distinction on who it is that represents the church in this matter. In fact, this forum is precisely the members of the Lord's church who need this information. We are witnesses to the whole matter. We care more for those abused than those believers who have no knowledge of Lee and his sordid sinful behavior.

Nell

Nell,

This forum is not the universal church. It is not a local church. Nothing about this forum even remotely matches the biblical definition of either. You are using that as an excuse to justify your berating and slander of believers in the Lords Recovery. It is in that way no different than the thousands of secular forums where similar unrestrained dialogue takes place.

Drake

[ZNPaaneah]

Nell,

This forum is not the universal church. It is not a local church. Nothing about this forum even remotely matches the biblical definition of either. You are using that as an excuse to justify your berating and slander of believers in the Lords Recovery. It is in that way no different than the thousands of secular forums where similar unrestrained dialogue takes place.

Drake

What then is the "biblically approved" way to "tell it to the church"? A telephone? A letter? A newspaper?

If Paul "told it to the church" via published letters that were available for all to read how is that any different from a letter published on a public forum on the internet?

[Nell]

Nell,

This forum is not the universal church. It is not a local church. Nothing about this forum even remotely matches the biblical definition of either. You are using that as an excuse to justify your berating and slander of believers in the Lords Recovery. It is in that way no different than the thousands of secular forums where similar unrestrained dialogue takes place.

Drake

The church is comprised of Christian believers. All Christian believers. You have an opinion about what you think the church is, the organization of believers, but you are not the ultimate authority on who is and who isn't the church. Attempts to tell the Lord Jesus who his church ISN'T is pretty Leeish. Lee had his own personal opinion which he spun into a ministry. If you want to argue about the church...there are plenty of threads on that topic.

Nell

[TLFisher]

Do you have any idea how many guests have gone to LC meetings and have never returned just because they were put off by the scathing criticisms of other Christians?

It's been my concern too Ohio.
Though it's generally very few who use the prophesying meeting for such speaking, elders feel no need to do anything about it. At least that was the case in my locality.
Someone could say it happens in other Christian assemblies. Various assemblies I've met with or visited, that has not been the case.

[Drake]

What then is the "biblically approved" way to "tell it to the church"? A telephone? A letter? A newspaper?

If Paul "told it to the church" via published letters that were available for all to read how is that any different from a letter published on a public forum on the internet?

ZNP,

The equivalent NT venue would be the public square as was found in most of the cities of that day. The Lords charge to go to your sinning brother and if he does not listen tell it to the church etc. was not to go to a pubic square day after day and berate and slander brothers and sisters.

Drake

[Drake]

The church is comprised of Christian believers. All Christian believers. You have an opinion about what you think the church is, the organization of believers, but you are not the ultimate authority on who is and who isn't the church. Attempts to tell the Lord Jesus who his church ISN'T is pretty Leeish. Lee had his own personal opinion which he spun into a ministry. If you want to argue about the church...there are plenty of threads on that topic.

Nell

Well, neither do you. Who appointed you as the ultimate authority on what is the church and what is not? Under your definition Facebook is also the church.

Now what?

Better to base your belief on the biblical definition of a local church or the church universal. A public forum where Christians slander and berate other believers is not a church by biblical arrangement nor in the Spirit of Christ. Christ will present a bride to Himself that spotless and without blemish through His cleansing and washing and anyone with even a little discernment knows that the railing accusations you promote here day after day strongly resemble the tactics of the evil one.

Drake

[ZNPaaneah]

ZNP,

The equivalent NT venue would be the public square as was found in most of the cities of that day. The Lords charge to go to your sinning brother and if he does not listen tell it to the church etc. was not to go to a pubic square day after day and berate and slander brothers and sisters.

Drake

But isn't that what was meant when the Lord said their sins would be shouted from the rooftop?

[Nell]

ZNP,

The equivalent NT venue would be the public square as was found in most of the cities of that day. The Lords charge to go to your sinning brother and if he does not listen tell it to the church etc. was not to go to a pubic square day after day and berate and slander brothers and sisters.

Drake

So far, Drake, the only one berating brothers and sisters ... is you. You continue to berate we forum members as slanderers, members of the Body of Christ...the universal church...for sounding the alarm.

Regardless, the protection is on the side of the innocents who are or were victims of the predators, both then and now. You seem to have lost sight of that. Paul charged the Corinthians (below) to deliver the sinning brother to the devil for the salvation of his soul. We are charged to treat them as heathen and publican, that is, preach the gospel to them.

As bad as their sin is, the Lord in his Word still makes a way for the vilest offender to have a path back to Him...for the salvation of his soul. These vile offenders are possibly our brothers, too. By covering Philip Lee's sin, his own father abandoned him in his state. That is a horrible tragedy as well to leave these men in their sin. Benson and Ray didn't love BenM enough to try to rescue him. They exiled him and left him in his sinful state...and look what happened. Do you really want to be seen as one who would protect these men rather than the women they abuse?

There is plenty of tragedy in this horrible situation, but my heart remains to blow the whistle and stop the downward spiral of sinning men who prey on women IN THE CHURCH, not cover it up.

Nell

[Drake]

-1

Nell,

Your thread will not help ongoing victims because if a crime is being committed as you allege then cops need to be called in to stop it.

Why aren’t you doing that?

Drake

[Drake]

But isn't that what was meant when the Lord said their sins would be shouted from the rooftop?

ZNP,

That is borrowing scripture and flipping it on its head to justify an unrighteous practice.

If you think otherwise, please explain in context how Luke 12 v2-3 is the Lord charging His believers to shout each other’s sins from the rooftops.

I think you know better and I think your spirit knows better.

Drake

[Drake]

-1

ZNP,

There is no scriptural justification for your using this forum as a platform to work your issues or offenses with other Christians. It’s just not in the Bible so I wouldn’t be so confident about your hope of vindication at the judgement seat of Christ.

Let’s keave it there but If you wish to continue this dialogue let’s take it to the other thread where you discussed that NY meeting before. I would have posted this over there but I don’t know where it’s at .

Thanks
Drake

[Nell]

Nell, Your thread will not help ongoing victims because if a crime is being committed as you allege then cops need to be called in to stop it. Why aren’t you doing that?

Who told you that? How can you possibly know what help this discussion has been to victims? Are you in contact with them? Have you talked with them and they told you this topic doesn't help them? The decision on what to do next is theirs and theirs alone. Not yours. Your opinion on what they should do is irrelevant. I think they should do whatever they feel is the right thing for them. I would never violate their will again by doing something apart from them. Additionally, I cannot reasonably report a crime I did not witness. In fact, I'm reporting a crime to those who will one day rule in the next age in righteousness.

It is the abused women who have the option to report any crimes against them should they choose to do so. I cannot even imagine the horror they went through, and the consequences they live with possibly to this day.

You apparently you think this is about YOU and your opinion about what should be done. Your opinion seems to be more for sake of your argument rather than concern for these abused women, those who abuse women, the church, Body of Christ, and our God who is Holy and Righteous.

Nell

[Evangelical]

I think Nell has raised some very important points about abuse in a church (any church or denomination). I can certainly agree with the point made about not every brother in the local churches being a brother and not every sister being a sister. We have to be on our guard and if we suspect any wrong doing should do something about it. I have only experienced abuse of men by men and not men to women although I'm sure the same sorts of men are capable of either.

[ZNPaaneah]

ZNP,

That is borrowing scripture and flipping it on its head to justify an unrighteous practice.

If you think otherwise, please explain in context how Luke 12 v2-3 is the Lord charging His believers to shout each other’s sins from the rooftops.

I think you know better and I think your spirit knows better.

Drake

I have not said that Luke 12 is a charge to believers to shout from the rooftop. However it is a warning and a promise to believers that if they do sin they had to deal with it properly because everything hidden will be known. There is nothing in Luke 12 that suggests this will only take place at the judgement seat.

Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. 2 But there is nothing covered up, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known. 3 Wherefore whatsoever ye have said in the darkness shall be heard in the light; and what ye have spoken in the ear in the inner chambers shall be proclaimed upon the housetops.

[Drake]

Who told you that? How can you possibly know what help this discussion has been to victims? Are you in contact with them? Have you talked with them and they told you this topic doesn't help them? The decision on what to do next is theirs and theirs alone. Not yours. Your opinion on what they should do is irrelevant. I think they should do whatever they feel is the right thing for them. I would never violate their will again by doing something apart from them. Additionally, I cannot reasonably report a crime I did not witness. In fact, I'm reporting a crime to those who will one day rule in the next age in righteousness.

It is the abused women who have the option to report any crimes against them should they choose to do so. I cannot even imagine the horror they went through, and the consequences they live with possibly to this day.

You apparently you think this is about YOU and your opinion about what should be done. Your opinion seems to be more for sake of your argument rather than concern for these abused women, those who abuse women, the church, Body of Christ, and our God who is Holy and Righteous.

Nell

Nell,

Victims of sexual abuse do not often have the wherewithal, courage, or they have been made to feel shameful to report it for themselves. So if you know of a crime happening you should facilitate its reporting through the proper channels on their behalf else it just continues. You do not have to witness a crime to report it.

The problem I have with your accusation is that it is communicated through the wrong channel to have any effect and you broad brush everyone in the group. That will not help the victims of crime and it is slanderous and libelous to the vast majority believers in the Lords Recovery who pursue the Lord in a holy and upright manner of living. Your attempts to cast the Lords Recovery as practicing rampant sexual abuse is a gross mischaracterizing to serve the interests of people in this forum, not actual victims.

Nell, I’ve made several attempts to find common ground and assumed you really wanted to help victims of sexual abuse. But your rancorous responses reveal a different agenda else you would have gladly received the support of someone you consider a forum adversary. Or perhaps there really is no crime to report. You are possibly not making a distinction between a crime and immorality and just lumping them into one big “unrighteousness” bucket.

Lastly, you do not have a corner on the market for this topic. You are not an informed expert and your approach indicates a lack of understanding how to handle such situations. I know, because in a workplace setting I have been trained to recognize this and have been involved in steps to resolve a few situations. No, this is not about me, rather it is about taking tangible steps to intervene on behalf of actual victims vs. a kind of tabloid reporting.

Drake

[Ohio]

Drake, what are your qualifications as an expert in this field? Are you SHRM certified?

i have not seen attempts by you to find common ground on this thread. Rather you constantly defend your favorite ministry, and denigrate those who have been victimized by it, while playing your beloved word games with all the posters here.

In a ministry such as Living Stream, do you really see much difference between sexual abuse by management and criminal behavior? Do you really feel that sexual activities at the workplace between managers and female volunteers are merely immoral and consensual, without criminality. If so, your standards for LSM don't even rise to the level of Hollywood sleaze.

[Drake]

Drake, what are your qualifications as an expert in this field? Are you SHRM certified?

i have not seen attempts by you to find common ground on this thread. Rather you constantly defend your favorite ministry, and denigrate those who have been victimized by it, while playing your beloved word games with all the posters here.

In a ministry such as Living Stream, do you really see much difference between sexual abuse by management and criminal behavior? Do you really feel that sexual activities at the workplace between managers and female volunteers are merely immoral and consensual, without criminality. If so, your standards for LSM don't even rise to the level of Hollywood sleaze.

No, I am not certified and I dont claim to be. How about you? Nell? Ever actually advised a victim or a perpetrator in determining legal or workplace action? Didn’t think so.

I’m not defending any crime that may have been committed. Am I not the one who is advocating calling the proper authorities? Or do you think you are the proper authority? If so, what makes you, Nell, or anyone else in this forum a proper authority to deal with this matter? You can report to the proper authorities if you think a crime has been committed. I say do it if you want to help victims.

Yes, there is a difference between adultery, fornication, and something forced in the workplace, at home, or anywhere. They are all immoral, but they are not all crimes. You do understand the difference don’t you? This forum is not the place to report criminal activity IF your objective is to help victims. If you really want to help victims then take some action with authorities who can actually do something about it. Otherwise, it is just tabloid type sleaze, since you brought up sleaze.

Drake

[Ohio]

I’m not defending any crime that may have been committed. Am I not the one who is advocating calling the proper authorities?
No, I must have missed that.

You have critiqued John Ingalls for not calling the authorities, but not Witness Lee who had promised to "take care of things."

And you like to play word games with words like "crime."
This forum is not the place to report criminal activity IF your objective is to help victims.
The reason we are discussing the matter here is that all other avenues of reporting have been removed in the LC, and the victims are just left with their guilt and shame.

Why is it that the LSM/LC's have become like the RCC's. Do you think the strong authoritative structure might be the answer, since both adhere to the "deputy authority" heresies?

[Nell]

No, I am not certified and I dont claim to be. How about you? Nell? Ever actually advised a victim or a perpetrator in determining legal or workplace action? Didn’t think so.

I’m not defending any crime that may have been committed. Am I not the one who is advocating calling the proper authorities? Or do you think you are the proper authority? If so, what makes you, Nell, or anyone else in this forum a proper authority to deal with this matter. This forum is not the place to report criminal activity IF your objective is to help victims. If you really want to help victims then take some action with authorities who can actually do something about it. Otherwise, it is just tabloid type sleaze, since you brought up sleaze.

Drake

Please note the title of this thread: Whistleblower. The objective of this thread is to blow the whistle on unrighteousness behavior in the church. You are the one trying to make it something never intended.

Perhaps I will send this link to the Dallas Morning News, the Fort Worth Star Telegram, the Houston Chronicle, the Austin Statesman, the Los Angeles Times...any one else you want to include? I will include the LSM and let them know that you insisted on reporting crimes. Of course the statute has run on the older ones and possibly the ones posted on this forum. We’ll see.

Nell

[Unregistered]

If a brother is offended he should do everything possible to be reconciled with his brother on the way, before death takes one and no reconciliation is possible in this age.

Actually... If a born again believer in Christ Jesus has fallen into holding to offended feelings... Then this one needs to... FIRST... Turn to the Lord by turning to their regenerated spirit... Then... Abiding in the Lord by abiding in their regenerated spirit... They... Following the Lord... Do what it is the Lord leads.

This is not a matter of "...right or worng..."... But one of living in, and living out the life of Christ. . . . When we as born again believers place our reasoning of what scripture says before the actual leading of the Lord... Then we are simply entering into the way that leads to folly religion.

And I experienced, and spoke against, this very thing at yesterday's morning Lord's Day meeting of the saints in the district I meet in.

If attempts are made then it is on the one who rejects ... then the offended brother can leave it in the Lords righteous and capable hand.

And right there in your above speaking we can see the folly of religious thinking being exposed... My brother, Drake... Nothing is every out of "...the Lords righteous and capable hand." . . . Believers in Him simply need to be those that express this reality... Meaning... Express that nothing is every out of "...the Lords righteous and capable hand."

And we can only express this reality when we believe this reality... And any believer in Christ who thinks to themselves that "... then the offended brother can leave it in the Lords righteous and capable hand..." is exposing that they are not holding to this reality... Exposing that they do not hold to the reality that there is nothing that is not already in "...the Lords righteous and capable hand...".

And this is why believers in Christ continue on in their offended feelings/offences... They simply are not holding to Christ.

Expressing discontent against another brother day in and day out on a forum like this is not leaving it in the Lords righteous and capable hands.

Absolutely... As can be any type of speaking that comes out of our old fallen natural man... And to do so day in day out is just a normal expression of those abiding in and expressing their fallen natural man.

The other brother may be wrong but now you are too.

Drake

And what are you... Right?

Romans 14:1... "Now him who is weak in faith receive, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his considerations."

[Drake]

No, I must have missed that.

You have critiqued John Ingalls for not calling the authorities, but not Witness Lee who had promised to "take care of things."

And you like to play word games with words like "crime."

The reason we are discussing the matter here is that all other avenues of reporting have been removed in the LC, and the victims are just left with their guilt and shame.

If you missed it it is because you are acting reflexively.. knee jerk reaction. “It’s coming from Drake.. Attack! Attack!”

The one avenue for criminal activity is to call the cops. The law is for the lawless. By your calling everything immoral a crime then you befuddle any actual crime. If you or anyone accuse someone or a group of continued criminal activity then you need to take action.... this forum is not the place to resolve criminal activity.

However, I think a rational person knows that engaging authorities for merely something immoral and not criminal is a fools errand. That is why, I suspect, no one here will do it in this case. Rather, it is convenient to slander a group of christians whom you dislike with a broad brush of ongoing criminal activity. It is serious enough that incidents of immorality have taken place but it is also immoral to make false accusations and there is a point that it becomes criminal too. You should understand that I am trying to help here by moderating this discussion.

Drake

[Steel]

If a brother is offended he should do everything possible to be reconciled with his brother on the way, before death takes one and no reconciliation is possible in this age.

Actually... If a born again believer in Christ Jesus has fallen into holding to offended feelings... Then this one needs to... FIRST... Turn to the Lord by turning to their regenerated spirit... Then... Abiding in the Lord by abiding in their regenerated spirit... They... Following the Lord... Do what it is the Lord leads.

This is not a matter of "...right or worng..."... But one of living in, and living out the life of Christ. . . . When we as born again believers place our reasoning of what scripture says before the actual leading of the Lord... Then we are simply entering into the way that leads to folly religion.

And I experienced, and spoke against, this very thing at yesterday's morning Lord's Day meeting of the saints in the district I meet in.

If attempts are made then it is on the one who rejects ... then the offended brother can leave it in the Lords righteous and capable hand.

And right there in your above speaking we can see the folly of religious thinking being exposed... My brother, Drake... Nothing is every out of "...the Lords righteous and capable hand." . . . Believers in Him simply need to be those that express this reality... Meaning... Express that nothing is every out of "...the Lords righteous and capable hand."

And we can only express this reality when we believe this reality... And any believer in Christ who thinks to themselves that "... then the offended brother can leave it in the Lords righteous and capable hand..." is exposing that they are not holding to this reality... Exposing that they do not hold to the reality that there is nothing that is not already in "...the Lords righteous and capable hand...".

And this is why believers in Christ continue on in their offended feelings/offences... They simply are not holding to Christ.

Expressing discontent against another brother day in and day out on a forum like this is not leaving it in the Lords righteous and capable hands.

Absolutely... As can be any type of speaking that comes out of our old fallen natural man... And to do so day in day out is just a normal expression of those abiding in and expressing their fallen natural man.

The other brother may be wrong but now you are too.

Drake

And what are you... Right?

Romans 14:1... "Now him who is weak in faith receive, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his considerations."

[Drake]

Please note the title of this thread: Whistleblower. The objective of this thread is to blow the whistle on unrighteousness behavior in the church. You are the one trying to make it something never intended.

Perhaps I will send this link to the Dallas Morning News, the Fort Worth Star Telegram, the Houston Chronicle, the Austin Statesman, the Los Angeles Times...any one else you want to include? I will include the LSM and let them know that you insisted on reporting crimes. Of course the statute has run on the older ones and possibly the ones posted on this forum. We’ll see.

Nell

You mean you never meant to allege criminal activity?

If you are doing it because criminal activity is happening then what choice do you have?

Drake

[Steel]

What really stood out to me by this post of yours is this expression "long standing offenses". It has been my impression that many within the leadership of the Local Churches and LSM feel that there is some kind of expiration date on offenses. My understanding is that you need to repent of offenses and then they are forgiven...

Now hold on a second here...

The Lord's death on the cross was/is, according to scripture, just that... Forgiveness that was given before anyone who had been forgiven had repented... The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world... Which was before humanity sinned... Are you saying that before you were forgiven by God you had to repent of your offences? . . . I hope that's not what you are saying.

Forgiving someone should take place immediately upon our (the one who has suffered the offence) turning to the Lord regarding the related matter... How else can we turn to the Lord out of a pure heart? . . . Or does scripture tell us that we can turn to the Lord even as we hold to offended feelings? . . . Surely it doesn't. . . . It is not a matter of "...you need to repent of offenses and then they are forgiven..." . . . It is a matter of to be able to enter into the forgiveness that has already been given... You need to repent. . . . Not repenting prevents you from receiving what blessing is already there for you.

You don't just sweep them under the rug and then claim "that was a long time ago".

It is not a matter of sweeping or not sweeping "...under the rug and then claim "that was a long time ago"... Which smacks of fallen natural man reasonings... It is a matter of abiding in the Lord, and expressing the Lord... The matter regarding Phillip Lee... WAS... a long time ago... Check any calendar... Thirty years is a long time ago... Thirty years is pretty much a generation (or longer)... People have been born and are now 30 years old, and this matter is still being discussed... And worse... People are still holding to their offended feelings regarding it... How the Lord must mourn this.

The above made clear... The Lord is obviously allowing this matter to be held to and discussed by some... As He could easily shut it down if He so desired... So what should really be our consideration is, "Lord, what is it that you are after that you have allowed this matter not to die?"

Perhaps the Lord would remind us of this scripture...

John 9:1-3... "And as He passed by, He saw man blind from birth... And His disciples asked Him, saying, Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he would be born blind?... Jesus answered, Neither has this man sinned nor his parents, but he was born so, that the works of God might be manifested in him."

[Steel]

Did Lee hear the brothers? Did he hear the church? There is no expiration date to "tell it to the church". . . . When a sinning brother refuse to hear the church, your responsibility for reconciliation is over. A heathen or publican needs the gospel. However, the church's responsibility to "hear" did not end. The church should remain in fear of this sinning brother.

Nell... Are you... Being just one member of the Lord's one church... That is made up of tens of millions/billions (who knows) of members... Hearing the church?

Point a finger... Three more always pointing back at you.

BTW... I've forgiven your insult... But it's up to you to repent so that you may enter into this blessing.

[Steel]

Who told you that? This forum is not "a" church. It is THE church. The universal church.

How would you know... Do you know that all who participate on this forum are born again eternally saved believers who are in Christ? . . . Has there been some sort of guaranteed authentication processing carried out? . . . No, Nell... This online forum, and any other online forum is... NOT... a gathering of the church that is in Christ... In the sense/context spoken to in scripture... Which is that of being in the physical company of another/others.

So your above speaking in absolutely in error.

The word just says "tell it to the church" with no distinction on who it is that represents the church in this matter. In fact, this forum is precisely the members of the Lord's church who need this information. We are witnesses to the whole matter. We care more for those abused than those believers who have no knowledge of Lee and his sordid sinful behavior. Anyone who has ever sat through a Witness Lee message, or purchased a Living Stream Ministry publication has a vested interested in this matter...that is...THE CHURCH.

Nell

And above we see more error... Which is understandable... As error can only produce more error.

First... The context related to "...tell it to the church.." is that of the related local church in which the matter was taking place... Second... Contrary to what Nell says above... Not everyone here "... are witnesses to the whole matter."... Third... Nell is out of place to say that "...We care more for those abused than those believers who have no knowledge of Lee and his sordid sinful behavior."... Fourth... To have a "...vested interest..." in any matter is to be of the thinking that you have some sort of investment in a matter, and are interested in gaining a profit from this investment.

Now the first three errors of Nell made clear... The fourth is what I'd like to speak on as it concernes a matter that I have been considering before the Lord regarding brothers and sisters who participate on this website... This matter being... Why do we do it?... What is our "...vested interest..."?

Two possible reasonins could be that... 1... We hold to the belief that we have in some way "...invested..." something of our person (belief, trust, effort, time, money) in related things and feel obligated to protect our investment... and 2... We hold to the belief that we in some way need to realize a profit from this investment we have made.

Thing is... As slaves... We are in error to think we have made any type of investment in anything... Or that we are obligated to protect it... And also... That we need to realize a profit from anything that we are, or have been, a part of... The only one who has a "...vested interest..." and has the right to receive a profit is the Master of us slaves.

And notice in Nell's above speaking is nothing that points to this truth... None of her speaking points to Christ Jesus... Just herself and the church.

Sure... She does use the term "...the Lord's church..." but it is in context to the members of His church... Not Him... At least in a direct sense.

I wonder if Nell, or others here, have considered what the Lord's... Our Lord's... Vested interest is in this website... And what He desires to profit from it.

[Nell]

My Larry Nassar Testimony Went Viral. But There’s More to the Gospel Than Forgiveness.

Article in Christianity Today (http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2018/january-web-only/rachael-denhollander-larry-nassar-forgiveness-gospel.html), January, 2018

Former gymnast Rachael Denhollander spent years discovering God’s perspective on sexual abuse. Then her advocacy for survivors cost her her church.

INTERVIEW BY MORGAN LEE| JANUARY 31, 2018

"...Yes. Church is one of the least safe places to acknowledge abuse because the way it is counseled is, more often than not, damaging to the victim. There is an abhorrent lack of knowledge for the damage and devastation that sexual assault brings. It is with deep regret that I say the church is one of the worst places to go for help. That’s a hard thing to say, because I am a very conservative evangelical, but that is the truth. There are very, very few who have ever found true help in the church. ... " (emphasis added)

This is an excellent interview by one of the Nassar victims and the response of the church to what happened to her.

Nell

[Nell]

Godly Response to Abuse in the Christian Environment
(also called GRACE or G.R.A.C.E) is a Virginia 501(c)(3) non-profit organization formed by Basyle "Boz" Tchividjian to assist evangelical groups in confronting sexual abuse, particularly child sexual abuse, within their organizations.[1][2] Tchividjian is the grandson of Billy Graham and a law professor at Liberty University, who formerly worked as a prosecutor on sexual abuse cases.[2]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godly_Response_to_Abuse_in_the_Christian_Environme nt

[awareness]

Godly Response to Abuse in the Christian Environment
(also called GRACE or G.R.A.C.E) is a Virginia 501(c)(3) non-profit organization formed by Basyle "Boz" Tchividjian to assist evangelical groups in confronting sexual abuse, particularly child sexual abuse, within their organizations.[1][2] Tchividjian is the grandson of Billy Graham and a law professor at Liberty University, who formerly worked as a prosecutor on sexual abuse cases.[2]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godly_Response_to_Abuse_in_the_Christian_Environme nt
I'm friends with a sister who as a young child was sexually molested by her father ... a Baptist missionary in Pakistan.

Tchividjian is right. It really screw up her head for the rest of her life. It needs to stop, and covering it up only makes it worse.

Thanks Nell.

[Ohio]

Godly Response to Abuse in the Christian Environment
(also called GRACE or G.R.A.C.E) is a Virginia 501(c)(3) non-profit organization formed by Basyle "Boz" Tchividjian to assist evangelical groups in confronting sexual abuse, particularly child sexual abuse, within their organizations.[1][2] Tchividjian is the grandson of Billy Graham and a law professor at Liberty University, who formerly worked as a prosecutor on sexual abuse cases.[2]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godly_Response_to_Abuse_in_the_Christian_Environme nt

Nell, thanks for this post. I looked at the Wiki article, which interested me:

In the early 2000s, Tchividjian became convinced that Protestant institutions had not properly addressed incidents of sexual abuse, incidents that he believed would eventually lead to scandals similar to those that had damaged the Catholic Church.

In Tchividjian's view, the legalistic, authoritarian culture of some Protestant organizations was particularly susceptible to what he called "spiritual abuse" — the attempt of religious leaders to silence victims or convince them that they deserved their abuse Tchividjian has stated that, "When it comes to child sexual abuse, too many churches and Christian organizations prefer to sacrifice individuals in order to protect themselves. We end up living out the very antithesis of the Gospel that we preach. The consequences are devastating."

GRACE began in 2003 when a reporter called Tchividjian about a case of sexual abuse mishandled by a pastor. Sounds all too familiar.

.

[Steel]

Sounds all too familiar.

Yep... For sure when looking at the entirety of folly Christianity.

[Ohio]

Yep... For sure when looking at the entirety of folly Christianity.
Huh?

But God sees no iniquity in Israel?

[Koinonia]

Yep... For sure when looking at the entirety of folly Christianity.

Is the LC included? Or is this one of those "three fingers pointing back at you" deals?

[Steel]

Huh?
But God sees no iniquity in Israel?

God knows the source of iniquity in the creature he determine was very good.

[Steel]

Is the LC included? Or is this one of those "three fingers pointing back at you" deals?

Absolutely... In both cases.

Any "Christian" can be found in, and express... All that is related to the "...ity..." suffix.

And this reality is even confirmed in the writings of published LSM resources... In fact, it was just a few months ago that we were reading ministry that spoke about religion being in every human... Including those of us reading the ministry.

[Nell]

I'm bringing this "Whistleblower" thread to the top because of Drake's comments on the "Self Serving Doctrine of Lee" thread. Specifically:

Trapped,

In general you are describing a contrarian and indeed I may be just that in this forum. Not purposely, but rather my minority view will seem to be deliberately contrarian simply because it is a minority view.

But I can acknowledge the characterizations in your post no further than that. Reason is because your examples are very personal and extreme. Were someone to describe such an awful experience happening to them I would not respond as you suggest. First, no one can argue with ones personal experience for it is theirs. That is why I don’t and only offer a comparison with my own. Yet, I would not be so callous as to draw a personal comparison to sexual assault or the death of a loved one in the way you describe..... unless I had such an experience myself and sharing said experience would be supportive.

I know you meant well in hopes to offer me sound advice. I accept it in that spirit but you missed the mark in your chosen examples making further dialogue about it impossible for in so doing I would lend credibility to the extreme examples which I cannot.

Drake

If you look at Drakes comments on this thread, you can compare for yourself what Drake SAYS he would do, and what he SAYS in responding to actual victims of sexual abuse in the Local Churches as these women have testified, in writing, on this forum.

Then you can decide for yourself the veracity of Drake's comments above.

Nell

[ZNPaaneah]

I'm bringing this "Whistleblower" thread to the top because of Drake's comments on the "Self Serving Doctrine of Lee" thread. Specifically:
If you look at Drakes comments on this thread, you can compare for yourself what Drake SAYS he would do, and what he SAYS in responding to actual victims of sexual abuse in the Local Churches as these women have testified, in writing, on this forum.
Then you can decide for yourself the veracity of Drake's comments above.
Nell

I don't understand what you are saying. The quote of Drake you provide is not a response to actual victims but rather to hypothetical scenarios. Can you also provide the quotes to actual victims testimonies.

[leastofthese]

I'm bringing this "Whistleblower" thread to the top because of Drake's comments on the "Self Serving Doctrine of Lee" thread. Specifically:



If you look at Drakes comments on this thread, you can compare for yourself what Drake SAYS he would do, and what he SAYS in responding to actual victims of sexual abuse in the Local Churches as these women have testified, in writing, on this forum.

Then you can decide for yourself the veracity of Drake's comments above.

Nell

I’m not sure about others, but I’ve read posts on this forum for a couple years - comments like those you’ve quoted don’t go unnoticed.

[Nell]

I don't understand what you are saying. The quote of Drake you provide is not a response to actual victims but rather to hypothetical scenarios. Can you also provide the quotes to actual victims testimonies.

Should a response to a hypothetical (Trapped's hypothetical) have a different response than a real but similar situation (the Whistleblower thread)?

The entire Whistleblower thread is about sexual abuse by the Local Church leadership and is based on testimonies of posters on this forum and documentation from John Ingall's book. If you're interested, review this topic.

[Nell]

I’m not sure about others, but I’ve read posts on this forum for a couple years - comments like those you’ve quoted don’t go unnoticed.

What does that mean?

[awareness]

Should a response to a hypothetical (Trapped's hypothetical) have a different response than a real but similar situation (the Whistleblower thread)?

The entire Whistleblower thread is about sexual abuse by the Local Church leadership and is based on testimonies of posters on this forum and documentation from John Ingall's book. If you're interested, review this topic.
Thanks Nell. I am interested but don't have time to read over 290 posts. I don't doubt the stories at all.

After leaving the LC I talked to many others that left, and found out lots of immoral and unethical things that were going on, while I had my head in the clouds.

What's sad is, prolly these stories are just the tip of the iceberg. It's especially sad that believers can act no different than unbelievers.

[Drake]

Thanks Nell. I am interested but don't have time to read over 290 posts. I don't doubt the stories at all.


What stories don't you doubt, awareness?

Which ones in this thread?

Thanks
Drake

[awareness]

What stories don't you doubt, awareness?

Which ones in this thread?

Thanks
Drake
I was hoping to get around the details. My point is that there are always all kinds of hidden things going in every locality, every group, every church, and every religion, pretty much everywhere. I was shocked when I found out about it, and what the elders knew -- and didn't know. Philip, Timothy, and Nee, aren't the first and only ones.

The urges and drives of the flesh, the strength of that are equal to those of our drive for food, water and air, is persistently relentlessly strong (Paul's law of the members). Nothing has been able to stop them, or put an end to them. Sorry. Unfortunately. They win a lot of the time. Why do you think we have a population explosion?

But thanks for asking. If you have one in mind I'd be glad to discuss it with you. I fear we'll both suffer equally, for reasons such as, not being an eyewitness, not hearing it firsthand from the victim, or not even hearing the perpetrator brag about it.

The truth is, I'm sad for the sisters. It disturbs me. And I know some gay stuff happens, between both males and females. I knew some. In fact I know of closeted gays in the LC right now. But let's face it, it's mostly sisters that suffer.

And that just shouldn't be (any of it). It just shouldn't be even in the secular world, let alone in the Christian world, and even less, I would think, in the local churches (much given, much expected).

Lo and behold ... turns out aren't any of us angels, unless it's the bad ones.

Rom 3:10* As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:*

[Drake]

If you have one in mind I'd be glad to discuss it with you.

I don’t, and neither do you. That’s the point. You said you don’t doubt the stories. There are no stories in this thread to doubt.

Drake

[Drake]

I'm bringing this "Whistleblower" thread to the top because of Drake's comments on the "Self Serving Doctrine of Lee" thread. Specifically:



If you look at Drakes comments on this thread, you can compare for yourself what Drake SAYS he would do, and what he SAYS in responding to actual victims of sexual abuse in the Local Churches as these women have testified, in writing, on this forum.

Then you can decide for yourself the veracity of Drake's comments above.

Nell

In a rare moment of agreement with Nell I too encourage anyone interested in what Drake thinks to read the posts with the duck avatar straight through.... they are easy to spot starting with #44.

You will also notice that Nells assertion about actual victims.....

“actual victims of sexual abuse in the Local Churches as these women have testified, in writing, on this forum “....

.... are nonexistent. No actual victims of sexual abuse will be found herein, none have testified or written here, ...... and I, Drake, have never corresponded with an actual victim of sexual abuse in this thread or this forum as Nell claims... they simply do not exist.

Nell has asked you to compare what I have said and I join her in the request.....asking for your due diligence I challenge anyone who thinks I have spoken to actual victims then show us the post. Just follow the duck in this thread and tell us what you find.

Drake

[Nell]

In a rare moment of agreement with Nell I too encourage anyone interested in what Drake thinks to read the posts with the duck avatar straight through.... they are easy to spot starting with #44.

You will also notice that Nells assertion about actual victims.....

“actual victims of sexual abuse in the Local Churches as these women have testified, in writing, on this forum “....

.... are nonexistent. No actual victims of sexual abuse will be found herein, none have written here, ...... and I, Drake, have never corresponded with an actual victim of sexual abuse in this thread or this forum as Nell claims... they simply do not exist.

Nell has asked you to compare what I have said and I join her in the request.....asking for your due diligence I challenge anyone who thinks I have to show us the post. Just follow the duck in this thread and tell us what you find.

Drake

OK. Duly noted. Let me rephrase. Take a look at the posts of those who experienced sexual abuse, including those documented by John Ingalls, and how "the duck" responded (quacked?).

If you only "follow the duck", you will have a one-sided view of the topic. I did a quick read of the entire thread...it doesn't take long. Mostly I noted that the Duck, in his #44 (above) tried to change the subject and make it about how he would handle the reports of abuse. But please don't take my word for it. Read BOTH SIDES for yourself and then you decide. Never take someone else's "interpretation" of what was said. Go to the source.

The posts of those who experienced abuse (including the John Ingalls book) are: #27, #31, #32, #112 and #120. These posts contain links to the source posts.

Nell

[awareness]

I don’t, and neither do you. That’s the point. You said you don’t doubt the stories. There are no stories in this thread to doubt.

Drake
See. I didn't read any of it. But I'm glad you did. I must have misread between the lines, when Nell reintroduced this thread, bringing it to the top. It sounded like sisters telling of sexual abuse.

By the way, I explained myself in a response post, basically blaming the flesh, but I guess Untohim thought it too "R" rated, and deleted it. Can't blame him. I use to be an uptight Christian too, concerning matters of the flesh. But to be fair, he may have just considered it off topic. And it was. I, me, am obviously off topic.

But I must remark. In the local church, I found the atmospheric sensitivities to things R-rated so oppressive that it discouraged victims from being able to talk about it.

It's those stories that I don't doubt.

BTW, I've got a screen shot of that deleted post. if you like I could send you a copy of it ... or to anyone else. Just ask.

Now, what's this Whistleblower thread all about? Should I steal the time to read it? or is it anticlimactic?

[awareness]

The posts of those who experienced abuse (including the John Ingalls book) are: #27, #31, #32, #112 and #120. These posts contain links to the source posts.

Nell
Thank you Nell. I read every one of them. And I call foul on my deleted post. It was not off topic, and it wasn't foul.

I still say I don't doubt the stories. I could tell ones that I know of.

[ZNPaaneah]

The entire Whistleblower thread is about sexual abuse by the Local Church leadership and is based on testimonies of posters on this forum and documentation from John Ingall's book. If you're interested, review this topic.

I have looked at the posts you say are direct testimonies of sexual abuse.

#27 — Ben McPherson's divorce. The complaint in this account is not about the response of the elders involved but in the advice that was given by WL and then followed which required them to lie when asked about Ben. There is no allegation of sexual abuse (the term refers to molestation, or unwanted sexual behavior, usually by force). Since Ben had an affair with a married woman she was not a minor. Since they both subsequently were married there is no evidence in this testimony of sexual abuse. Adultery, yes. Sexual abuse, no.

#31 — This post simply asks this question: The church allows sexual predators to flourish. I have experienced this first hand. Does anyone else have experience with this? I never experienced this and would certainly not respond to a vague claim of this without specific evidence.

#32 — abuse? I am not clear what the sexual abuse is that this post is referring to.

#112 — vague (PL). Everyone on this forum has condemned PL to the uttermost, myself included. However, this post is vague. However, it is clearly a testimony of sexual abuse. But I would never consider PL as "Local Church Leadership". You can say he was LSM leadership, but to my knowledge he did not actively participate in the Local Church.

#120 — I will make it clear that nobody within the LC had molested me personally but I do know some who were by LC members. This post is a second hand account. It is not a direct testimony, it is considered hearsay. Second, even as hearsay it does not allege sexual abuse by LC leadership.

In conclusion, I have looked at every single post you have referenced and there is not one about "sexual abuse by Local church leadership". What you have is an adulterous elder, and sexual abuse by LSM leader. You also have hearsay that someone knows someone who was molested by someone in the Local church (but no allegation that the abuser was part of the Local church leadership).

[ZNPaaneah]

In any moment of decision, the best thing you can do is the right thing, the next best thing is the wrong thing, and the worst thing you can do is nothing. — Teddy Roosevelt

With both Ben M. and Philip L, you can argue that various elders in the Local church did not do the right thing. In both cases it was clearly "a moment of decision" and in both cases the elders were clearly offended and acted in a way to respond to the evidence of sin. PL would not have been so heinous had they not "done nothing" for so long. Still, it is slanderous to say that the Anaheim elders allowed sin to flourish. JI and the rest of them had a moment of decision. They sought fellowship and I think the response they got from RG and BP was reprehensible, still it was ultimately under their authority and they did the right thing.

No doubt the puppet elders that replaced them were culpable for their letter of apology.

As for Ben M., again you can argue that they ultimately did "the wrong thing" which is the "second best option". Immediately calling for the elders to meet and fellowship was the right thing. The reaction of the elders was the right thing. Involving WL in the fellowship was the right thing. Following his advice was certainly an understandable decision, though in hindsight was the wrong thing, still it was far better than doing nothing.

I agree with Awareness that it is absurd to think that in a church fellowship of tens of thousands of believers you are not going to have sins of this nature taking place. I completely disagree with the characterization of "sexual abuse by the Local Church leadership". We have not been given any evidence of that on this thread.

[eDh22]

In any moment of decision, the best thing you can do is the right thing, the next best thing is the wrong thing, and the worst thing you can do is nothing. — Teddy Roosevelt

I would not tell anyone what to do, but I would like to encourage those who were abused in the Local Churches to consider their options today. Think about the others who come after you. Pray about it.

When I was meeting with the LCs and the hymn "I'm so happy in this lovely place" was called, I would laugh and roll my eyes. I wasn't "happy" and this place wasn't "lovely" but that's not why I was there. I believed that the Lord's Recovery was the one true way. I wasn't particularly fond of the saints in any of the localities in which I had lived and I was comfortable maintaining a slight unspoken disagreement with our local elders and with Anaheim, but prided myself in being silent and unshaken from the true way of the Lord's Recovery, no matter what.

I'd dare to say that human behavior ranging from wacky to dangerous can be found in any gathering of humans, and that fear of confrontation is a fairly universal human sentiment, so my relative state of self-induced subjugation, while arguably part of LC enculturation, is likely being repeated day in and day out in various situations around the globe.

It took years before I allowed myself to recognize that I was existing in a state of avoidance. I was exhausted from parsing through a range of quality of teachings and behavior of the leadership but not addressing them with the saints, because of my fear of being cut off. I had seen so many brothers and sisters, some beloved, some less so but still, dismissed from the community over the years. One almost comical example was when fairly new sister gave a testimony that was, I thought quite unintentionally, "outside the party lines", and was very publicly obliterated. I remember my strong feeling of justification ("that's what happens when you don't read from the Life Studies!") being mixed with a whisper of envy ("but maybe now she is free"), watching her walk alone out the meeting hall door for what I knew would her last time.

This thread has been helpful to me. What was really my life's intension at the time? Was it affected by a lack of self-respect or by too much self-consideration? Did I allow an organization or principle to become my "false idol"? In my pride of being steadfast, who or what was I betraying?

In contrast with - "For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind" 2 Timothy 1:7 (NKJV)

[Ohio]

One almost comical example was when fairly new sister gave a testimony that was, I thought quite unintentionally, "outside the party lines", and was very publicly obliterated. I remember my strong feeling of justification ("that's what happens when you don't read from the Life Studies!") being mixed with a whisper of envy ("but maybe now she is free"), watching her walk alone out the meeting hall door for what I knew would her last time.

Publicly ambushed by the LC version of PC police?

[awareness]

When I was meeting with the LCs and the hymn "I'm so happy in this lovely place" was called, I would laugh and roll my eyes. I wasn't "happy" and this place wasn't "lovely" but that's not why I was there.
I identify with just about all you said above eDh22.

When I first 'joined' the local church I could sing "I'm so happy in this lovely place" and feel it and mean it. Back then I was discovering God's eternal purpose, and diving into it.

I diligently absorbed and sucked in everything I could by Nee and Lee. Then, as I got ever more and deeper involved -- with the soon to be golden boy, Kangas, if he wasn't already golden -- I started to see contradictions to what I was reading in their books going on. But I still believed I was in God's eternal purpose and trusted that it was coming from Gods' man.

But as I saw more and more contradictions, I couldn't just let it go and keep my mouth shut.

And irony of ironies, eventually I was accused of "using Lee's works to destroy Lee's works." In other words, holding Lee to his past teachings to destroy his present new and improved teachings, or something like that. It was crazy logic to me. It came to a head, and I got drummed out.

So how's it going for you eDh22?

[Nell]

I agree with Awareness that it is absurd to think that in a church fellowship of tens of thousands of believers you are not going to have sins of this nature taking place. I completely disagree with the characterization of "sexual abuse by the Local Church leadership". We have not been given any evidence of that on this thread.

Does that mean the sexual abuse reported by John Ingalls is OK? Not to worry. It's everywhere so...chill.

I think John Ingalls gave us plenty of evidence. The women who posted told us what they could. Believe them or don't.

Regardless, I've said everything on this topic that I intend to say. I don't need to convince anyone of anything. I blew the whistle. That was my intention.

Nell

[awareness]

Does that mean the sexual abuse reported by John Ingalls is OK? Not to worry. It's everywhere so...chill.

I think John Ingalls gave us plenty of evidence. The women who posted told us what they could. Believe them or don't.

Regardless, I've said everything on this topic that I intend to say. I don't need to convince anyone of anything. I blew the whistle. That was my intention.

Nell
If LSM was a secular company Philip would have been out on his ear in a flash ... #MeToo ...

But Lee had experience covering for Nee's sexual exploits. So covering for his son's exploits was just doing business as usual.

Lee was too uncomely and homely for sexual exploits. He went for the money. He went for none-of-your-business-LSM, and sales -- So let Philip and Timothy have their fun, as long as money is made.

Back when Lee started charging for conferences, tickets for Lee were more expensive than tickets for top-draw Rock bands. Lee the Rock star. And hey, let's make churches buy our materials.

So we had sex and money, but no Rock and Roll.

I'm ashamed to admit that, I was just as much a sucker as those joining NXIVM today, or Scientology.

[Drake]

I’m glad Nell brought this thread back to the top because in reviewing the arc of the discourse it brought to the forefront once again a recurring practice among a few members of this forum....

First, everyone is entitled to their own opinion but not their own facts. Opinion springs out of a belief system and not necessarily based in fact. An informed opinion will try to bolster ones opinion with some facts but at the end of the day, it is still opinion.

Facts are what actually happened but may or may not necessarily be factually based. For instance, a dissenting brother may have written a letter , that is a fact, but the content of his letter may be just an opinion based on little or no facts. Just because someone wrote a letter does not automatically mean the content is factual. Or for example, a post in this thread referenced a sister who was molested as a young girl, a link was provided, but the sister said straightforwardly that no one in the local churches perpetrated that abuse upon her. Therefore, that lent no credence to the basic charge of this thread that sexual abuse is rampant in the local churches and yet the implication is foisted upon us by innuendo.

Which brings me to this next point that I find sorrow in having to say to fellow Christians. Bearing false witness. It occurred in this thread in two ways. First the outright allegation by Nell that there is sexual abuse among local church leadership and which charge ZNPs due diligence proved false in #302....then the allegation that I, Drake, was dismissive of actual sexual abuse accounts of women that have testified and posted on this forum by Nell #289...... again, this is bearing false witness as no women who were actually sexually abused posted here and therefore I never did as was alleged nor would dismiss such a tragic incident. Both of these allegations were simply the bearing of false witness and should never proceed from the mouth of a Christian and yet the scripture says plainly from the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.

And finally there is another destructive bearing of false witness presented in this thread... that of bearing false witness through innuendo. Perhaps this is the worst kind.

If the reader cares to understand my view on this serious matter and my challenges to the falsehoods presented in the examples above then start with #44 and follow my posts through this thread. Or jump to #115 and follow the duck after that.

Thanks,
Drake

[ZNPaaneah]

Does that mean the sexual abuse reported by John Ingalls is OK? Not to worry. It's everywhere so...chill.

What is definitely not OK is to twist someone's words, quote out of context and then ascribe such a nasty response. I have made it clear repeatedly that PL was "not OK". I repeated that "I had condemned PL to the uttermost". You are distorting my comment. The church is a hospital, what is foolish is to think you will have a church anywhere without sinners and fleshly people. PL was not even a member of the church. You can second guess the way in which the elders dealt with PL, and with Ben M. But saying that the elders allowed "sexual abuse" to flourish is ugly. Hope was an elder, JI was an elder. Those are the two testimonies of elders showing their response and there is no justification based on their response to conclude that the elders were complicit in allowing sexual abuse.

But would it be OK for me to say that you committed the crimes that PL did without any supporting evidence? No, that is called libel. You blamed Local Church Leadership for the crimes of PL. Based on what? PL was not Local Church Leadership. JI was. Are you blaming JI for PL? If so, give us the evidence. You pointed to a number of testimonies on this thread, none of them provided any evidence of "sexual abuse" by "local church leadership".

So, to answer your question. No, PL's abuse is not OK. Therefore why do we need to make up false charges? Since we all agree that PL's abuse was heinous and involved sufficient supporting evidence to be deemed credible this also means that the apology letter from the puppet elders that replaced JI, etal, was also heinous. I don't feel that the behavior of those elders can be used to condemn "Local Church leadership" as a whole, but if you want to throw shade on those particular elders go ahead. What I find far more relevant is that this is the undeniable evidence that ties WL into PL's sins.

[UntoHim]

To ZNP and Drake and all forum members.

Tone down the rhetoric. Any further posts accusing another forum member of "bearing false witness" will be deleted. Both of you are showing the coldness, insensitivity and disrespect for women/sisters that the Local Church of Witness Lee is infamous for. Shame on you both. Both of you are being argumentative, insensitive and petty towards Nell. There is a context in which she is claiming that Local Church leadership is responsible for the sexual abuse experienced by quite a number of sisters/women. Some have posted on this forum. One in particular was by a sister who went by the moniker "happiernow":
The church allows sexual predators to flourish. I have experienced this first hand. Does anyone else have experience with this?

She had originally posted a lengthy description of the abuse. She then realized it had too much personal information and deleted it, or had me delete it for her, I can't recall which. In any event it was horrific to say the least. THIS WAS DIRECT FIRST HAND TESTIMONY.

To say that what is being discussed here on this thread is "hearsay" is absolutely absurd. It's an old Witness Lee/Local Church trick, thrown out as a shameless red herring to avoid addressing real, genuine experiences and concerns by current and former members, especially women/sisters. It may have worked for the Acting God /Oracle et al, but that duck won't fly around these parts.

Again. Let's tone down the rhetoric. Calm down. Take a deep breath. Maybe a nice cup of herbal tea. TONE IT DOWN OR I WILL TONE IT DOWN FOR YOU.
**As always, I am not including myself as "any other forum member". Me and my posts are fair game. Call me a liar. Challenge me on the open forum that I am bearing witness. Go for it. Call me an unfair moderator. Have at it.
But stop attacking and accusing any other forum member of lying or bearing false witness.
-

[Drake]

What about today? There are predators in the Local Church TODAY who are sexually abusing women who are vulnerable to Lee's "ministry"......

Until sexual sin, sexual abuse, molestation, rape, in the Local Churches is exposed and the offenders are excommunicated publicly that all may fear, you don't have a leg to stand on. If you know it's happening and do nothing, it's on you. Until you confront leadership about this ongoing sin against the Body of Christ, don't talk about some kind of fictitious "higher bar".

Nell

-1

UntoHim,

I provided a very specific example of the claim Nell made of Drake and that claim was false... that is how she reopened this thread. If my characterization was incorrect then how would you characterize it? It was not an opinion, it was a claim that I did something that everyone can read and see that I did not.

Nevertheless, my characterization pales in comparison to the inflammatory and libelous statements made above. Those are the comments that you as the owner and moderator of this forum should give a closer look.... and personally I think diligent moderation should be applied there.

So, I’ll stand down though your uneven response remains unresolved.

Drake

[ZNPaaneah]

To ZNP and Drake and all forum members.


My first post was in #290, I highlighted Nell’s comment about “responding to actual victims of sexual abuse” and simply asked for Nell to point me in the direction of these quotes and victim’s testimonies. I asked because I had respect for this issue.

Nell responded: “The entire Whistleblower thread is about sexual abuse by the Local Church leadership and is based on testimonies of posters on this forum and documentation from John Ingall's book.” (Nell Post 292)

Awareness seemed to echo this in posts 294 and 296: “My point is that there are always all kinds of hidden things going in every locality, every group, every church, and every religion, pretty much everywhere. I was shocked when I found out about it, and what the elders knew -- and didn't know.”

In Post #302 I looked at the posts that Nell said were testimonies of sexual abuse by the Local Church Leadership. One post quoted happiernow saying “the church allows sexual predators to flourish. I have experienced this first hand.” So we have posts from three different posters alleging that elders in the Local Church knew of sexual predators and allowed them to “flourish”. I think this is a very big deal, not unlike what we recently saw with the Catholic Church. I feel it is our responsibility to tell those we see sinning of the Lord's judgement. When I heard of EM's involvement in this I sought him out and talked to him directly about this. I wanted to know what "Local church leaders" they were talking about and if I had responsibility to speak to them. That is not "coldness" or "disrespect".

I was trying to get to the bottom of this, I thought Nell might have missed a testimony, or perhaps Nell would have said that it was part of the testimony that was deleted. In post #303 I also floated a fig leaf that “Local Church Leadership” referred to WL and the puppet elders in Anaheim.

But Nell took this post and used it to infer I was suggesting we "wink" at PL's sin. There is no basis for that conclusion. I may have mentioned PL in at least 20 posts on this forum and in everyone I have condemned him as an evil and lascivious man.

[UntoHim]

ZNP and others.
The sexual abuse problems didn't start with Phillip Lee and they certainly didn't end with Phillip Lee. It is now obvious to all but the most truest of True Believers in the Local Church that this dynamic most certainly started with the founder of the movement, Watchman Nee. Most of us with a little gray hair and decades of experience with the Local Church don't have a lot of doubts now about the things Dr. Lily Hsu detailed in her book. Everything rings true - The absolute adoration and undiscerned devotion to a man of flesh and blood almost universally ends in the abject abuse of the followers of such a man. In many cases the women/sisters in such movements end up paying the highest price. Such is the case with the Local Church of Witness Lee.

As I have clearly and strongly stated a number of times over the years, I will not allow the revealing of or discussion of intimate details regarding this kind of abuse. Members are free to PM each other, but for the sake of our readers I don't see the need for details on a public forum. The most leeway in this matter will be given to the actual victims themselves. If I am satisfied that they are genuine, then these women/sisters will be given a voice here on LocalChurchDiscusions. Additionally, those with first hand knowledge, by direct communication with the victims or first hand knowledge of any abuse will also be given a voice. AND THEY WILL BE GIVEN A VOICE WITHOUT BEING SUBJECT TO VERBAL HARASSMENT AND THREATS BY OTHER FORUM MEMBERS.

I think our friend Drake mentioned something about "delivery" lately. Well the "delivery" of what has been posted by ZNP and Drake on this thread has been over-the-top. The tone and tenor, especially as it has been directed at Nell, stinks. It smacks of the typical male/brother insensitivity that is so prevalent in the Local Church. The nitpicking. The parsing of every jot and tittle. It's petty, and even worse, it ads to the deep wounds still scaring so many girls/women/sisters who have been abused.

On a personal note, I have had a close family member confide in me about being raped by another close family member. It repulsed me to my core. And when I asked her why she didn't come forward when it happened: "I DID NOT THINK ANY OF THE MEN IN THE FAMILY WOULD BELIEVE ME." I cried in shame for days. I was one of those men. I felt shame and regret that this dear girl could not come to me when it happened. By God's mercy and grace, and no thanks to me or any other of the men who should have known, this girl has recovered as best she could. She is married now and has a family of her own. She has also turned to the Lord and to fellowship with a healthy group of believers. Thank God for this.

Maybe there's a reason why Eve didn't go to Adam when the serpent told her all those lies....maybe she didn't think that he would believe her:eek:
-

[ZNPaaneah]

Maybe there's a reason why Eve didn't go to Adam when the serpent told her all those lies....maybe she didn't thing that he would believe her:eek:
-

My responses have nothing to do with "not believing" the accusations. If I didn't believe it I wouldn't have posted or asked a question. I believe the proper response when we learn someone has sinned is to confront them. If there was more to the matter of sexual abuse and cover up by the elders that I was not aware of I would act on that information. That was the motive in asking for something actionable. That is what the term "whistleblower" refers to (providing information on a person involved in illegal activity).

You seem very sensitive to those who have been abused and yet completely tone deaf to those who are accused based on inference and innuendo. I understand your desire to protect the victims, but that sentiment was also motivating elders in the Local church who were dealing with these same issues. That does not mean they were allowing the sins to "flourish". That also is the history of the Local Church going all the way back to Shanghai and the elders that excommunicated WN.

(Finally there is an issue with your use of language which is causing confusion. The term "sexual abuse" is a legal term, but you are not using it that way when you refer to WN. WN's mistress would not be "sexual abuse" unless she was an unwilling partner or a minor. That is confusing. It seems you are using the term to refer to fornication and adultery. Your story of rape is sexual abuse. PL and your story are about sexual abuse, WN and BM were about adultery.)

[Drake]

...AND THEY WILL BE GIVEN A VOICE WITHOUT BEING SUBJECT TO VERBAL HARASSMENT AND THREATS BY OTHER FORUM MEMBERS.

I think our friend Drake mentioned something about "delivery" lately. Well the "delivery" of what has been posted by ZNP and Drake on this thread has been over-the-top. The tone and tenor, especially as it has been directed at Nell, stinks. It smacks of the typical male/brother insensitivity that is so prevalent in the Local Church. The nitpicking. The parsing of every jot and tittle. It's petty, and even worse, it ads to the deep wounds still scaring so many girls/women/sisters.....-

UntoHim,

Stop. Please. STOP!

First, there are no victims of sexual abuse in this forum who have posted anything.. and no one that anyone has verbally threatened or harassed. Nor would. That is fake news. Totally.

Second, you and Nell do not have a corner on this topic. You are not the only one who has been exposed to or or had to deal with it. It is a serious matter and should not be handled carelessly. Don’t brush me with further scarring the deep wounds of many girls, women, and sisters. That is a pathetic tactic on your part to silence me....so, if I question these accusations, if I ask for the evidence which is supposed to be so apparent, if I challenge the outrageous accusations against brothers in the Lord then I am further scarring girls who have been sexually abused?.... it is deeply disturbing that you even think that way. It’s not my questions, or ZNPs, or Evangelicals that further scar. Does that matter to you at all?

Third, over the top is not calling out falsehood. Over the top is calling consensual sex as sexual abuse. Over the top is accusing leadership in the local churches of sexual abuse, rape, and other serious crimes. It’s also libelous. There is no evidence posted in this forum that it is happening or is rampant as has been alleged.

Just to be clear, this is your forum UntoHim, and you can adjust the membership anyway you please... you are responsible for its content. I think you are making a mistake by allowing libelous content to stand unchallenged..... but nevertheless, I will not allow anyone to make accusations about what I said and what I did which are patently false nor will I keep my mouth shut about it when it happens to me... or others.. If remaining silent when falsely accused are your terms for participating in this forum then we can pretty much figure out how this will end.

Drake

[Unregistered]

Give it one year....minimum 3 stories of children sexually abused by members of the LC...that the elders knowingly covered up. It’s coming.

[awareness]

On a personal note, I have had a close family member confide in me about being raped by another close family member. It repulsed me to my core.
It repulses me to the core to hear about it.

I wonder if being female is a curse? I'm don't mean they are cursed for being female, I'm saying they're cursed because of men.

I can't tell you how deeply this disturbs me. Two little angels, 6 and 8 now, that I see when I see my grand children, are the sweetest little girls. A couple yrs ago I was asked to give one of them, the older one, a ride to my granddaughter's 1st birthday.

The two little girls live in Missouri. They were here for the party. Their mother was here with them. During the ride I asked the little girl where her daddy was, and she told me she didn't want to be with him. She then stunned me by telling me that he was touching her and her younger sister down here, and she pointed. This all came out when the little girls were caught doing it to a little boy.

That's why this disturbs me so deeply. It results in life long damage.

But this makes my point. That this sort of stuff happens everywhere, even in our families. Men have an appetite. Some can't control it.

I don't remember ever allowing it to flourish with the elders I knew in the LC.. I remember a gay issue in the c. in Detroit (Kangas lead). They didn't let it flourish when it happened. And there was one in Ft. Lauderdale. The elders knew about it, but they couldn't stop it. They did still allow the brother to lead the children. There's that. The brother eventually died of AIDS.

The only one that I know of, where LC leaders could be accused of allowing it to flourish was, Witness Lee and his sons. Philip and Timothy had a long history of it. As with the one John Ingalls got involved with, their dad wouldn't stop it. That was the beginning of the end for JI, cuz he was lead elder, and he certainly wasn't going to allow it to flourish. But by virtue of the private company LSM, Witness and his kids were outside the LC, and therefore outside the province of the elders. So the leader of the "Recovery" is the one that allowed it to flourish.

Maybe there's a reason why Eve didn't go to Adam when the serpent told her all those lies....maybe she didn't thing[k] that he would believe her:eek:
-
Maybe you see it differently, but in Gen. 3:6 I see that Adam was right there with Eve and the serpent, but apparently just watching ... and listening. In any case, Adam wasn't tending the garden, or eating from any of the other trees, or the right tree. He was clearly complicit with Eve and the serpent.

[Ohio]

The only one that I know of, where LC leaders could be accused of allowing it to flourish was, Witness Lee and his sons. Philip and Timothy had a long history of it. As with the one John Ingalls got involved with, their dad wouldn't stop it. That was the beginning of the end for JI, cuz he was lead elder, and he certainly wasn't going to allow it to flourish. But by virtue of the private company LSM, Witness and his kids were outside the LC, and therefore outside the province of the elders. So the leader of the "Recovery" is the one that allowed it to flourish.

In 1977 Max Rapoport confronted Philip Lee about sexual immorality and he was thrown under the bus.

In 1988 John Ingalls confronted Philip Lee about sexual immorality and he was thrown under the bus.

And you tell us that as long as Philip Lee works for a certain Book Publisher, he can get away with anything?

[Evangelical]

Don't forget that women rape men too. I don't think it has anything to do with the curse of man ruling over women.

[Nell]

...I wonder if being female is a curse? I'm don't mean they are cursed for being female, I'm saying they're cursed because of men. ...

You're close, Harold:
Gen. 3:14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

The serpent was cursed and that enraged him. So he retaliated against the woman.

Here's the way Jesse Penn-Lewis phrased it:
"Henceforth the story of the ages consists of the record of a war between these two seeds; the Seed of the woman--Christ and His redeemed--and the seed of the devil (See John 8: 44; 1 John 3: 10), right on to the furthermost point of the final committal of Satan to the lake of fire.

Henceforth it is also war by Satan upon the womanhood of the world, in malignant revenge for the verdict of the garden. War by the trampling down of women in all lands where the deceiver reigns. War upon women in Christian lands, by the continuance of his Eden method of misinterpreting the Word of God; insinuating into men's minds throughout all succeeding ages, that God pronounced a "curse" upon the woman, when in truth she was pardoned and blessed; and instigating men of the fallen race to carry out the supposed curse, which was in truth a curse upon the deceiver, and not the deceived one (Gen. 3: 14).

"I will put enmity between thee and the woman," said God, as well as between "thy seed and her seed," and this vindictive enmity of the hierarchy of evil to woman, and to believers, has not lessened in its intensity from that day."

Nell

[Nell]

UntoHim,

Stop. Please. STOP!

First, there are no victims of sexual abuse in this forum who have posted anything.. and no one that anyone has verbally threatened or harassed. Nor would. That is fake news. Totally.

Second, you and Nell do not have a corner on this topic. You are not the only one who has been exposed to or or had to deal with it. It is a serious matter and should not be handled carelessly. Don’t brush me with further scarring the deep wounds of many girls, women, and sisters. That is a pathetic tactic on your part to silence me....so, if I question these accusations, if I ask for the evidence which is supposed to be so apparent, if I challenge the outrageous accusations against brothers in the Lord then I am further scarring girls who have been sexually abused?.... it is deeply disturbing that you even think that way. It’s not my questions, or ZNPs, or Evangelicals that further scar. Does that matter to you at all?

Third, over the top is not calling out falsehood. Over the top is calling consensual sex as sexual abuse. Over the top is accusing leadership in the local churches of sexual abuse, rape, and other serious crimes. It’s also libelous. There is no evidence posted in this forum that it is happening or is rampant as has been alleged.

Just to be clear, this is your forum UntoHim, and you can adjust the membership anyway you please... you are responsible for its content. I think you are making a mistake by allowing libelous content to stand unchallenged..... but nevertheless, I will not allow anyone to make accusations about what I said and what I did which are patently false nor will I keep my mouth shut about it when it happens to me... or others.. If remaining silent when falsely accused are your terms for participating in this forum then we can pretty much figure out how this will end.

Drake

UntoHim,

So here's the comparison post by Drake, which was the reason I brought this topic to the top. I suggest forum members compare the two and decide for yourself what you think.

Originally Posted by Drake
Trapped,

In general you are describing a contrarian and indeed I may be just that in this forum. Not purposely, but rather my minority view will seem to be deliberately contrarian simply because it is a minority view.

But I can acknowledge the characterizations in your post no further than that. Reason is because your examples are very personal and extreme. Were someone to describe such an awful experience happening to them I would not respond as you suggest. First, no one can argue with ones personal experience for it is theirs. That is why I don’t and only offer a comparison with my own. Yet, I would not be so callous as to draw a personal comparison to sexual assault or the death of a loved one in the way you describe..... unless I had such an experience myself and sharing said experience would be supportive.

I know you meant well in hopes to offer me sound advice. I accept it in that spirit but you missed the mark in your chosen examples making further dialogue about it impossible for in so doing I would lend credibility to the extreme examples which I cannot.

Drake

[awareness]

Don't forget that women rape men too. I don't think it has anything to do with the curse of man ruling over women.
I can't believe you are claiming the rare exception of women raping men. How many Nun's have been accused of raping boys, compared to priests?

[awareness]

In 1977 Max Rapoport confronted Philip Lee about sexual immorality and he was thrown under the bus.
In 1988 John Ingalls confronted Philip Lee about sexual immorality and he was thrown under the bus.
And you tell us that as long as Philip Lee works for a certain Book Publisher, he can get away with anything?
Yes. It wasn't reported to the law, and the elders had no jurisdiction over LSM.

[UntoHim]

Yes. It wasn't reported to the law, and the elders had no jurisdiction over LSM.

While technically true, the LSM was being operated and administered within the same building as the Church in Anaheim. (at least it was at the Ball Road location back in those days). Furthermore, and of greater importance, the abuse by Phillip Lee was perpetrated upon some sisters who, as members of the Church in Anaheim, were indeed under the "jurisdiction" of John Ingalls, Al Knoch and Godred Otuteye.

These brothers had every right and responsibility to look out for the well-being and safety of those sisters. Of course they found out rather quickly that Witness Lee had absolutely no care or concern for these sisters. He willingly and purposefully fed them to the wolf. And this was a wolf who had attacked the sheep again and again. AND WITNESS LEE WAS FULLY AWARE OF WHAT THE WOLF WAS DOING. But when you consider yourself the Acting God, Deputy Authority and Apostle of the first order, I guess you can justify anything.

For anyone to think that these abuses of sisters in the Local Church movement ended with the death of Witness Lee and his son Phillip, they are being just as deceived as those elders in Anaheim were 30 years ago. Movements of men based upon the person and work of a mere man are always and forever susceptible to the work of the fallen flesh of mere men. Fleshly men will always resist protections and safeguards put in place for the protection, safety and well-being of the most vulnerable in the flock....and this usually means women and children.
-

[Ohio]

Yes. It wasn't reported to the law, and the elders had no jurisdiction over LSM.


Only in Nee/Lee's system of "THE WORK" do Lee and Sons escape all accountability and responsibility to the Elders and the church.

Why can't all Christians escape all guilt on this technicality? Just claim that you are a part of "THE WORK" and you can get away with anything. Right?

And thus we explain why Lee and Sons were never culpable for their crimes.

[Nell]

I can't believe you are claiming the rare exception of women raping men. How many Nun's have been accused of raping boys, compared to priests?

No kidding. Doesn't it just make you want to scream "Stop! Please. STOP!"

Nell

[leastofthese]

No kidding. Doesn't it just make you want to scream "Stop! Please. STOP!"

Nell

If I wanted folks to believe in Witness Lee’s movement, then yes STOP! Otherwise, it’s par for the course for that dude. Trolling maybe.... maybe something else....

[Evangelical]

I can't believe you are claiming the rare exception of women raping men. How many Nun's have been accused of raping boys, compared to priests?

Nuns could be complicit in the crimes? Congratulations to awareness for winning the "let's promote sexist stereotypes" award.

[awareness]

Nuns could be complicit in the crimes? Congratulations to awareness for winning the "let's promote sexist stereotypes" award.
It's not a stereotype that by far and away it's men that rape.

[Nell]

Don't forget that women rape men too. I don't think it has anything to do with the curse of man ruling over women.

This is bait.

[Ohio]

This is bait.

Somebody needs to blow the whistle on this guy.

[Evangelical]

It's not a stereotype that by far and away it's men that rape.

It is a stereotype if you link it to the curse in Genesis.

[Evangelical]

This is bait.

FYI this is a discussion forum. You can't label every comment you disagree with as "bait".

[Nell]

FYI this is a discussion forum. You can't label every comment you disagree with as "bait".

Uh. Actually I can.

If it's bait, I can call it what it is. But that's beside the point, isn't it? Even your "FYI" is bait, written to draw the conversation off topic. Which you have done. You accuse me of "whistleblowing" "every comment I disagree with" which is clearly wrong, and blatant "bait".

:stayontopic:

I haven't seen any posts about or by LC men being sexually abused by women in the LC. That would be on topic.

Otherwise, Stop! Please. STOP!

Nell

[ZNPaaneah]

I haven't seen any posts about or by LC men being sexually abused by women in the LC. That would be on topic.

Otherwise, Stop! Please. STOP!

Nell

The first post referenced Jerry Sandusky, Penn State, and the Catholic Church. All of those are examples of boys being raped.

All statistics suggest that boys being raped is equally prevalent.

You made this "on topic" when you tied the abuse of sisters to Biblical theology. Awareness tied it into Gen 3:6 in Response to UntoHim's comment and you built on that with a war against women by Satan.

[UntoHim]

If you are an abuser in the Local Church, or have knowledge of abuse, you are a criminal. You are not a participant in "God's best" but "the devil's worst." You have an obligation to your victims and to the Body of Christ to stop your sin, repent to your Lord and Savior, repent to your victims, repent to the church and to make restitution to your victims and rid the church of this heinous crime and this shame to the Lord's name.I think this statement gives us the heart of the matter. It is the theme of this thread. And too many of the posts that have followed are taking us away from the general theme. That's probably on me. My bad.

So while Jerry Sandusky, Penn State, the Catholic church and the molestation of boys are all cases of sexual abuse, getting into the details of these cases will ultimately take us away from the matter at hand - To wit - Sexual abuse of women/sisters/girls in the Local Church of Witness Lee.

-

[awareness]

It is a stereotype if you link it to the curse in Genesis.
I didn't link it to the curse in Genesis. I said men are the curse of women.

[Ohio]

I didn't link it to the curse in Genesis. I said men are the curse of women.
Men are also their greatest blessing. They're MFEO.

It is sin that is the curse of women, and our greatest enemy.

[Evangelical]

Uh. Actually I can.

If it's bait, I can call it what it is. But that's beside the point, isn't it? Even your "FYI" is bait, written to draw the conversation off topic. Which you have done. You accuse me of "whistleblowing" "every comment I disagree with" which is clearly wrong, and blatant "bait".

:stayontopic:

I haven't seen any posts about or by LC men being sexually abused by women in the LC. That would be on topic.

Otherwise, Stop! Please. STOP!

Nell

The topic I was addressing was the topic that awareness and yourself introduced. See ZNPs post. If you wanted to discuss the curse with awareness and no one else to reply then I suggest you should have done that privately.

[UntoHim]

So while Jerry Sandusky, Penn State, the Catholic church and the molestation of boys are all cases of sexual abuse, getting into the details of these cases will ultimately take us away from the matter at hand - To wit - Sexual abuse of women/sisters/girls in the Local Church of Witness Lee. -

So how much the more to not make a passing comment some kind of focus for the thread. Why would anyone want to make a passing comment something worth changing the direction of a thread? Maybe because they want to avoid and evade the subject matter at hand?:rolleyes:

-

[Drake]

So how much the more to not make a passing comment some kind of focus for the thread. Why would anyone want to make a passing comment something worth changing the direction of a thread? Maybe because they want to avoid and evade the subject matter at hand?:rolleyes:
UntoHim,

No one wants to avoid and evade the subject. However, challenging yours and others characterization about the subject is fair game and I am happy to engage in that way to show that the accusation of rampant sexual abuse by local church leaders in the local churches is a complete and utter fabrication, slander, and defamatory. Furthermore, in this topic and in other topics what you call a passing comment is often not just passing at all but often used to bolster the main argument or use it as a proof point. It too, is fair game ...else by letting it stand unchallenged one might infer that there is tacit agreement on our part.

Even letting your post quoted above go unchallenged could give someone the impression that those of us challenging Nell’s absurd accusations are trying to avoid and evade which we are not. And it is transparent that Nells cry of “Off-Topic” is her attempt to control the arc of the dialogue by letting your and those of her companions remarks stand and by censoring Evangelicals .....as she attempted with me previously. ZNP rightly pointed out that Nell legitimized as on topic a point she then criticized as off topic.

Drake

[UntoHim]

Nobody has said "rampant sexual abuse by local church leaders in the Local Churches". Talk about complete and utter fabrication, slander, and defamatory. No worries though, Nell, me and most others here are used to your hypocritical feigning of indignation. It's pretty much all you do around this place.

I'll tell you what is rampant among Local Church of Witness Lee leaders - The utter disrespect and abject contempt for their sisters in Christ. I have heard more than just a few women/sisters complain about being treated as "second class citizens" in the Local Church. And while treating girls/women/sisters as second class citizens isn't in and of itself sexual abuse, IT CREATES AN ATMOSPHERE WHERE GIRLS/WOMEN/SISTERS ARE VULNERABLE AND SUBJECT TO SUCH ABUSE.

Deny it all you want. Feign indignation till the mooing cows come home. Avoid and evade to your hearts content. And most of all, you are more than welcome to feel like nobody cares for what you think and feel about the matter......Welcome to the world of the average Local Church sister.;):rolleyes:
-

[Drake]

-1

Just to be clear. You prefer “flourish “ as opposed to “rampant “....

.....:And the accusation of “rape” by forum members is ok with you.

Let’s get the terms right

Drake

[Nell]

Nobody has said "rampant sexual abuse by local church leaders in the Local Churches". Talk about complete and utter fabrication, slander, and defamatory. No worries though, Nell, me and most others here are used to your hypocritical feigning of indignation. It's pretty much all you do around this place.

I'll tell you what is rampant among Local Church of Witness Lee leaders - The utter disrespect and abject contempt for their sisters in Christ. I have heard more than just a few women/sisters complain about being treated as "second class citizens" in the Local Church. And while treating girls/women/sisters as second class citizens isn't in and of itself sexual abuse, IT CREATES AN ATMOSPHERE WHERE GIRLS/WOMEN/SISTERS ARE VULNERABLE AND SUBJECT TO SUCH ABUSE.

Deny it all you want. Feign indignation till the mooing cows come home. Avoid and evade to your hearts content. And most of all, you are more than welcome to feel like nobody cares for what you think and feel about the matter......Welcome to the world of the average Local Church sister.;):rolleyes:
-

UntoHim,

You are correct. Thank you for your support.

Rule #1 of writing is "write about what you know".

John Ingalls' "Speaking the Truth in Love" is the classic. He wrote about the sister who came to him and poured out her heart and soul, exposing the sinful behavior of her abuser, at great personal risk to both of them.

As long as this book exists, it will remain the testament of sexual abuse in the Local Church. To deny John's account of Phillip Lee's sexual behavior in the LC, as documented by him in STTIL, you may as well deny the abuse of young boys in the Catholic Church. As with the LC, the question is not "did it really happen" but "how bad was it" and "is it still happening."

After having been out of the LC for a period of years, I went back to a meeting in Irving one Sunday morning. The only thing I remember about that meeting was the looks on the faces of the sisters. Blank. No smiles. No frowns. Just blank. The men were up and down with the fist pump. Declaring "I'm so happy in this lovely place." Even a few sisters gave testimonies but their faces were still blank.

Jane Anderson described it as a "good old boys club". And the "good old boys" are still blind as bats. And if you're in the club, you don't get to vote.

Nell

[Ohio]

Let’s get the terms right

Drake
Let's get the facts of history right.

[UntoHim]

Just to be clear. You prefer “flourish “ as opposed to “rampant “
What I prefer is that girls/women/sisters are not put in a position where they are sexually abused by Christian men who are in a position of trust over them. What I would also prefer is that Local Church leaders don't act like cats in the litter box. This started with Watchman Nee, continued with Witness Lee and continues to this day.
Let’s get the terms right
So what's your next move? Are you going to tell us that "It depends upon what the meaning of 'Is' is".:eek:
I'll tell you what, why don't we see about protecting innocent girls/women/sisters first, then we can worry about terms later. This is 2018 America, not 1918 China. Girls and women can define and consider what sexual abuse is for themselves. Yes, yes, I know that "rape" has a legal definition over at the courthouse, but we are not talking about the courthouse, we are talking about the house of the living God. I know you Local Churchers would rather keep everything over at the courthouse, but since you guys haven't had much luck over there anyway lately, let's just stick with the standards for the house of God as set forth by the real Judge, shall we?
-

[Drake]

..... let's just stick with the standards for the house of God as set forth by the real Judge, shall we?
-

Why, I think that is terrific idea UntoHim..... so how about you step up as the Christian owner of this forum and stop the slander and libel coming from your forum clique fomenting accusations of “flourishing” sexual abuse, and rape, by local church leaders toward girls, women, and sisters... or are those standards that do not apply “for the house of God set forth by the real Judge”?

Or, if you really think you are on a mission from God then produce the evidence to substantiate the accusations..... let’s see the specifics .... you owe the forum that much... Step up and deliver the evidence amigo. Until then, spare us irrelevant lectures about kitty litter boxes, 1918 China, courthouses, and Bill Clinton,.. you are complicit in accusations about real people, a specific group, today, and in a public forum..... and it happens to be yours.

Trying to help you out bud. I really really am.

Drake

[UntoHim]

Drake, Drake, Drake!

Stop. Please. STOP!

Since when do you get your feathers in such a ruffle over talk about sexual abuse in the Local Church of Witness Lee? It should be old hat for you by now, my man. As I just recently noted on this very thread, it is now known by anyone who wants to know that this dynamic started with Watchman Nee. He was excommunicated by the very elders he appointed for a very good reason. Thanks to Dr. Lily Hsu we now know the reason(s). Of course nobody needs a tell-all book by a reputable medical doctor to know about what happened in Witness Lee's regime - Where the Acting God unleashed a DECADES long reign of terror against innocent women by his criminally deviant son, Phillip. How's that for "specifics" bud?

And now Drake wants us all to believe that all this ended when Lee & son met their Maker. (you know, that Judge you mentioned) Really bud? Some of us may have been born at night....but it WASN'T LAST NIGHT. You don't want specifics. You want this all to go away. Just like Watchman did. Just like Witness Did. Just like the Blended do.
-

[Drake]

-1

UntoHim,

Those are your specifics and basis for leveling criminal charges of rape and sexual abuse of girls in the local churches by local current church leadership? You rely on the testimony of a young sister coerced into testifying by Communist leaders in a public kangaroo court half a century ago? You extend the consensual immorality of PL decades ago as proof that local church leadership are engaging in flourishing sexual abuse of girls?

Those are not fair words, those are not logical words, and are not even standards that rise to basement level in the house of God, You’d be lucky to find those thoughts and accusations in the gutter down the street from the house of God.

With every false accusation you wallow this forum deeper into the pigsty. Your arguments are not rational, your accusations are without basis and are unrighteous, and the standard you claim to desire for this forum, the house of God, or even that of a Christian group is way way in the gutter.

We are mostly brothers in this forum and need to conduct ourselves right here in public view with the highest standard. You want the standard found in the house of God for this forum? Then start by not allowing the accuser of the brethren to have a soapbox for leveling slanderous accusations against brothers.

So please stop.... and stop mocking my calls for civility.

Drake

[Ohio]

Those are your specifics and basis for leveling criminal charges of rape and sexual abuse of girls in the local churches by local current church leadership? You rely on the testimony of a young sister coerced into testifying by Communist leaders in a public kangaroo court half a century ago? You extend the consensual immorality of PL decades ago as proof that local church leadership are engaging in flourishing sexual abuse of girls?

Those are not fair words, those are not logical words, and are not even standards that rise to basement level ...
Well, welll, well ... This is the closest Drake has ever come to an honest admission of LSM's dark past.

Firstly, I would not call this "consensual" when Philip Lee, the most powerful man at LSM, is abusing the volunteer staff during working hours. Was he just a great looking guy who needed some stress relief after lunch? Hardly. Today this is called workplace sexual abuse. It is adultery. It is pathetic. And it included many more sisters who were not "willing consensuals."

And you then speak of "fairness." How about a little "fairness" for the victims? How about a little "fairness" for the other saints? How about a little "fairness" for John Ingalls and others who attempted to protect the victims?

Nope, no such fairness for them! John Ingalls and others were publicly shamed, tarred and feathered, and excommunicated from their own churches. Books were written to slander them. These ones still cry out, like Abel of old, for justice against the Lee family.

What about Philip Lee, the "Harvey Weinstein" of the Lord's Recovery? Did he suffer any consequences? None. As Ed Marks recently told poster ZNP, Philip Lee was restored to good standing because it "pleased" his Daddy. No such luck for brother John Ingalls though, or the other victims.

[UntoHim]

If you are an abuser in the Local Church, or have knowledge of abuse, you are a criminal. You are not a participant in "God's best" but "the devil's worst." You have an obligation to your victims and to the Body of Christ to stop your sin, repent to your Lord and Savior, repent to your victims, repent to the church and to make restitution to your victims and rid the church of this heinous crime and this shame to the Lord's name.

Yet once more, for the sake of our readers, I will place this quote this from Nell's opening post to the forefront. This encapsulates all that Nell was really trying to get across in starting this thread. She can correct me if I'm wrong. As I have previously made clear, NO NAMES OF THE VICTIMS WILL BE ALLOWED ON THIS FORUM UNLESS THEY ARE VOLUNTEERED BY THE VICTIM HERSELF/HIMSELF. NO IDENTIFYING DETAILS ABOUT THE VICTIMS OR SPECIFIC DETAILS ABOUT THE ABUSE WILL BE ALLOWED ON THIS FORUM UNLESS THEY ARE VOLUNTEERED BY THE VICTIM. If anybody wants "proof" about the abuse, and covering up of the abuse, they can start their own forum and then censor the heck out of the victims, and those crying out on behalf of the victims, and then claim the moral victory before the Internet audience. Actually, such websites already exist. They are administered and under the full control of the official leaders of the Local Church of Witness Lee - The Blended Brothers.

In the meantime. The victims will have a voice here - either directly or indirectly through sisters like Nell and the other sisters that have posted here through the years. AND THEY WILL BE GIVEN A VOICE WITHOUT FACING THE UNRIGHTEOUS, UNFAIR AND DESPICABLE IMPUGNING BY LOCAL CHURCH BROTHERS WHOSE ONLY CARE IS FOR THE PROTECTION OF THEIR RELIGION, THE FOUNDER OF THEIR RELIGION AND THE CURRENT LEADERS WITHIN THEIR RELIGION.

If, as the admin of this forum, I am found to be error for giving girls/women/sisters a voice, then I will be found in error. But let it be known that my error will be on the side of caution for the sake of innocent girls/women/sisters - and on the side of God and God's Word I believe.
-

[Evangelical]

OK so you've given them a voice now where are the voices? Can we count them? How many voices can we see here?

As Drake pointed out, so far nothing relevant has been discussed other than goings on with PL , Watchman Nee and nothing really to suggest that "is it still happening" is true. If there was anything of substance today, would we need to keep repeating these things?

We've heard about atmospheres. We've heard about women with blank faces and the curse of Genesis. Drake was blamed for something, I still don't know what. Even the example that Nell gave in the OP was not related to the local churches but to her workplace. There's really been no attempts by any local church people to censor or evade, because no one has really said much at all.

[JLBW]

I can tell you there are many many women and girls who have been abused and harmed by "elders" and leading "brothers" in the LC and I was one of them. I was told to hush and not damage the dear sister and her family by exposing her husband's sexual misconduct with me. I was expected to submit to the brothers and I did. But I won't anymore. If you think that there are no harmed sisters just because we don't get on forums to discuss our abuse you are very deceived! The shame and humiliation that happens when you are violated sexually is more than most can bear. If you are a man you would not have any way to understand how it feels and how long it takes to heal from this type of sinful and illegal activity by "leaders" in the LC. I had no idea how much of a culture from WL and WN this was until finding this forum and now I'm even more angry. May God have mercy on every brother and leader who has covered up a sinning man and sent them away to harm other sisters in new locations. The Word is very strong in addressing this and the church should be also.

[JLBW]

I am happy to engage in that way to show that the accusation of rampant sexual abuse by local church leaders in the local churches is a complete and utter fabrication, slander, and defamatory.
Sorry but your lack of evidence that it is happening is not the same as "not happening". I can guarantee that it is rampant as I have first hand knowledge of victims and I am one.

[Nell]

JLBW,

Thank you for coming to the forum and telling your story. You are right. Nothing can change what happened to you and, who knows how many others who were abused by men in the Local Church. I cannot bring myself to refer to these people as "brothers".

The abuse apparently continues to this day.

How can we help? This forum could be a starting place. If you know other sisters who have suffered as you have, consider encouraging them to come here and at least read. Start with Whistleblower. There is a LOT of information and conversation in this topic. Also, Martha and Marry's House is a good private place for women to share among other women.

There are a couple of posters who contributed to Whistleblower with an obvious goal of derailing the subject. To me this only shows how important this topic is to the sisters and important to the house of God that this sin be exposed and dealt with.

Again, thank you for sharing with us, and I am so sorry for 1) the sexual abuse you suffered by a man you trusted, and 2) the way you were treated when you exposed this abuse. I am praying for you.

Nell

1 Timothy 5:19-21
19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses. 20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear. 21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Drake
I am happy to engage in that way to show that the accusation of rampant sexual abuse by local church leaders in the local churches is a complete and utter fabrication, slander, and defamatory.
Sorry but your lack of evidence that it is happening is not the same as "not happening". I can guarantee that it is rampant as I have first hand knowledge of victims and I am one.


Don't worry about Drake, JLBW. He's a serial prevaricator, and worse. He's probably mentally ill.

Thanks for stepping up and standing up to him.

[Drake]

I can tell you there are many many women and girls who have been abused and harmed by "elders" and leading "brothers" in the LC and I was one of them. I was told to hush and not damage the dear sister and her family by exposing her husband's sexual misconduct with me. I was expected to submit to the brothers and I did. But I won't anymore. If you think that there are no harmed sisters just because we don't get on forums to discuss our abuse you are very deceived! The shame and humiliation that happens when you are violated sexually is more than most can bear. If you are a man you would not have any way to understand how it feels and how long it takes to heal from this type of sinful and illegal activity by "leaders" in the LC. I had no idea how much of a culture from WL and WN this was until finding this forum and now I'm even more angry. May God have mercy on every brother and leader who has covered up a sinning man and sent them away to harm other sisters in new locations. The Word is very strong in addressing this and the church should be also.


JLBW,

Who told you to hush?

Who told you to submit to the brothers in this matter specifically?

Not names... but who?

Drake

[Cal]

JLBW,

Who told you to hush?

Who told you to submit to the brothers in this matter specifically?

Not names... but who?

Drake

Here we go again, gnats and camels...

Not "I'm sorry for your suffering." Not "I'm praying for your healing." But rather, "What little detail of your testimony can I slant to cast doubt on your credibility?" Gnats and camels, gnats and camels...

[UntoHim]

Come on Drake. You know very well what she means by "submit to the brothers". She is obviously talking about the elders - or should I say the elders that didn't sexually abuse her. The story about shipping the criminal out of town and silencing the victim comes right from the playbook of Witness Lee. There are several examples of this immoral and criminal shenanigans right here on this forum.
-

[Drake]

Come on Drake. You know very well what she means by "submit to the brothers". She is obviously talking about the elders - or should I say the elders that didn't sexually abuse her. The story about shipping the criminal out of town and silencing the victim comes right from the playbook of Witness Lee. There are several examples of this immoral and criminal shenanigans right here on this forum.
-

No I don't UntoHim.... and I don't agree with the advice she was given. Maybe she was referring to parents, friends, family, etc. She should clarify who told her (not the actual names or localities of course). Such serious charges should be specific.

JLBW, did an elder abuse you and did the the other elders in the church advise you not to say anything? Did your parents know what happened and how did they advise you?

Furthermore, how old were you when this happened? That itself could very well add weight to what action needs to be taken.

Drake

[UntoHim]

I'm only going to re-post this one more time. The next time I will assume you are playing games and moderate you accordingly. Please slow down and re-read the following:
I can tell you there are many many women and girls who have been abused and harmed by "elders" and leading "brothers" in the LC and I was one of them.
I was expected to submit to the brothers and I did.
If you don't believe this sister than you don't believe her. We all know that "you have never seen or heard of such a thing in the local church". Yes, yes, we all know that is what you are going to say. Go for it and be done with it my man. But it is now painfully obvious that there are many things that have taken place and are currently taken place in the Local Church of Witness Lee that you have not personally seen or heard of. As JLBW already pointed out to you, that doesn't mean that didn't happen or that they are taking place to this very day.

Keep it up, and I'm going to sick "The Sheepdog" after ya.:rolleyes:
-

[Cal]

JLBW, did an elder abuse you and did the the other elders in the church advise you not to say anything? Did your parents know what happened and how did they advise you?

Furthermore, how old were you when this happened? That itself could very well add weight to what action needs to be taken.

Drake

Drake,

Are you high on drugs? JLBW claims to have been sexually abused by the very people you defend within an inch of your life on this board. Do you really think she wants to engage with someone like you in public? Do you understand anything about how trust works with women? Do you really think it would be psychologically healthy for her to even begin to speak to someone like you? Would you want your wife or daughter to do that? The very fact that you jump in and begin to interrogate her right out of the chute, without registering any sympathy or tenderness or anything suggesting you aren't the Johnny Cochran of the LR (who at least had enough sense to pretend to be sympathetic), is exhibit #1 of what I say about you--that there is something very, very wrong with you. Lord, help us!

[Nell]

I'm only going to re-post this one more time. The next time I will assume you are playing games and moderate you accordingly. Please slow down and re-read the following:

If you don't believe this sister than you don't believe her. We all know that "you have never seen or heard of such a thing in the local church". Yes, yes, we all know that is what you are going to say. Go for it and be done with it my man. But it is now painfully obvious that there are many things that have taken place and are currently taken place in the Local Church of Witness Lee that you have not personally seen or heard of. As JLBW already pointed out to you, that doesn't mean that didn't happen or that they are taking place to this very day.

Keep it up, and I'm going to sick "The Sheepdog" after ya.:rolleyes:
-

JLBW,
I am repeating myself as well:

... Also, Martha and Mary's House is a good private place for women to share among other women.

There are a couple of posters who contributed to Whistleblower with an obvious goal of derailing the subject. To me this only shows how important this topic is to the sisters and important to the house of God that this sin be exposed and dealt with.

Remember, if you want to, we can take the points of Whistleblower to Martha and Mary's House. I think the honorable brothers on this forum have much to contribute, and I hate that it may come to this. Regardless, it's not likely that Drake can control himself.

Nell

[Cal]

JLBW,
I am repeating myself as well:



Remember, if you want to, we can take the points of Whistleblower to Martha and Mary's House. I think the honorable brothers on this forum have much to contribute, and I hate that it may come to this. Regardless, it's not likely that Drake can control himself.

Nell

Amen.

JLBW, I advise you to not engage Drake. The guy is about as trustworthy as a cobra with heat rash.

Drake, Back off.

[Drake]

I'm only going to re-post this one more time. The next time I will assume you are playing games and moderate you accordingly. Please slow down and re-read the following:

If you don't believe this sister than you don't believe her. We all know that "you have never seen or heard of such a thing in the local church". Yes, yes, we all know that is what you are going to say. Go for it and be done with it my man. But it is now painfully obvious that there are many things that have taken place and are currently taken place in the Local Church of Witness Lee that you have not personally seen or heard of. As JLBW already pointed out to you, that doesn't mean that didn't happen or that they are taking place to this very day.

Keep it up, and I'm going to sick "The Sheepdog" after ya.:rolleyes:
-

UntoHim,

Please, stop threatening me with moderation. I've read it several times so don't worry about that. Furthermore, I've done nothing, nor said a single thing worthy of even a minor edit. On the other hand, you've allowed this christian forum to become a pit of profanity without raising a pinky finger to moderate the perpetrator of such despicable language. How many more profanity laced asterisks are in our future? Where does such pathetic vocabulary go next?

I, on the other hand, am very concerned about this sister. You see, it's not enough for her to simply sweep it under the proverbial rug. Nor will it be helpful that she holds on to the experience by reliving it here over and over. That is not progression and that will never reach closure. You have any experience in dealing with this sort of thing in any religious or secular settings besides this forum? No? I have.

I have no reason to doubt her personal experience and I am also for taking the appropriate action including "sicking" the law as needed... for if there is any sicking to be done that is perhaps where it should come from. She made a general statement based on a personal experience. Was it an elder or just a local active leading brother? Was it elders that advised to inaction or her parents? Was she a minor? Do you know? That matters. If so, how about you step up and agree to do the right thing by her and not use her for bashing others as is the SOP in this forum. How about that? Frankly, this forum is ill-equipped to handle this or is that not apparent? The most that can be done by any of us is to advise to facilitate her into an environment where she can get real help... and justice.

Or is it just an easier path to use this sister's personal experience to bash and generalize about all the Lords' brothers in the group you dislike? Are there incidents? I'm sure there are. Is it "rampant".... we'll see.

You don't like an honest conversation like that, well, I cannot help that, UntoHim. It's your forum and you get to exclude any thoughts you disagree with... maybe that sounds familiar to you? My observation is that this forum is the least tolerant of any internet group I have ever been a part of. Just don't take advantage of this sister because she is saying want you want to hear. It's a sensitive subject but that is not an excuse to hide behind. At least, I will step up on her behalf.

Drake

[Cal]

You don't like an honest conversation like that, well, I cannot help that, UntoHim.

Oh, that's rich! Like you would know ANYTHING about honest conversation.

It just doesn't end, folks. It just doesn't end.

[JLBW]

Sorry Drake I had to work all day and don't have much time for this forum. Your inquisition is odd and disappointing. But I'll entertain you for the purpose of stopping this madness. I was an adult and my parents are not in the LC. They have nothing to do with this sexual misconduct.
The "brother" was an elder and I was told to keep quiet by the other elders who happen to be involved with DCP and also happened to fellowship about this with the blended brothers all the way at the top in Anaheim. No one encouraged me to do anything about this to obtain retribution from my attacker. I've spent thousands on mental health counseling. They only cared that I not damage the family of the attacker by making his sin and crime known.
Happy now? So how do you propose to go around the BBs? Are you willing to pay for my legal fees to bring a coal law suit? Do you know that this man still meets and is inappropriate with other sisters? He's only one of many that I know of. States that I have information about include Washington, Idaho, Texas, California,and Florida.....but that's only what I know about. How do we stop this damage? I'm all ears.....

[JLBW]

Amen.

JLBW, I advise you to not engage Drake. The guy is about as trustworthy as a cobra with heat rash.

Drake, Back off.

Thanks you for your cherishing words. I engaged but only because in Christ I'm strong enough to subdue/kill a cobra😉
You all are awesome supports and I appreciate all the love and care. My guess is that Drake cannot do anything to go against the BBs so he's not going to offer me help. I'd be happy to get some closure and money from my attacker.....but so far I've just trusted the Lord for healing and supply. And He is Good!!

[JLBW]

JLBW,

Thank you for coming to the forum and telling your story. You are right. Nothing can change what happened to you and, who knows how many others who were abused by men in the Local Church. I cannot bring myself to refer to these people as "brothers".

The abuse apparently continues to this day.

How can we help? This forum could be a starting place. If you know other sisters who have suffered as you have, consider encouraging them to come here and at least read. Start with Whistleblower. There is a LOT of information and conversation in this topic. Also, Martha and Marry's House is a good private place for women to share among other women.

There are a couple of posters who contributed to Whistleblower with an obvious goal of derailing the subject. To me this only shows how important this topic is to the sisters and important to the house of God that this sin be exposed and dealt with.

Again, thank you for sharing with us, and I am so sorry for 1) the sexual abuse you suffered by a man you trusted, and 2) the way you were treated when you exposed this abuse. I am praying for you.

Nell

1 Timothy 5:19-21
19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses. 20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear. 21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

Thank you Nell! I feel stronger and freer now that I've said it out loud. But in also afraid of DCP and what they might try to do to shut me up. Could they sue me?

[Cal]

Thanks you for your cherishing words. I engaged but only because in Christ I'm strong enough to subdue/kill a cobra.


Alright!! Well done! :hurray:

[Drake]

Sorry Drake I had to work all day and don't have much time for this forum. Your inquisition is odd and disappointing. But I'll entertain you for the purpose of stopping this madness. I was an adult and my parents are not in the LC. They have nothing to do with this sexual misconduct.
The "brother" was an elder and I was told to keep quiet by the other elders who happen to be involved with DCP and also happened to fellowship about this with the blended brothers all the way at the top in Anaheim. No one encouraged me to do anything about this to obtain retribution from my attacker. I've spent thousands on mental health counseling. They only cared that I not damage the family of the attacker by making his sin and crime known.
Happy now? So how do you propose to go around the BBs? Are you willing to pay for my legal fees to bring a coal law suit? Do you know that this man still meets and is inappropriate with other sisters? He's only one of many that I know of. States that I have information about include Washington, Idaho, Texas, California,and Florida.....but that's only what I know about. How do we stop this damage? I'm all ears.....

JLBW,

Thanks for your clarification.

I believe that you should do what you need to do before the Lord to bring closure and sometimes that is justice. God is just and righteous and He doesn't act apart from that. A man, or a brother in the Lord, does not have a free pass to impose his flesh and fleshly desires on another no matter what may be his visible service to the Lord.... and it is not always best to protect the unsuspecting spouse even for her sake. So I disagree, as far as I can know, to keep it quiet. Furthermore, moving the problem often means that someone else has to deal with it.

What to do? Well, first everything must be done before the Lord, you and Him primarily, and others as He leads you. If an offending brother won't hear you, never repented, and you already escalated in the church then you always have a final recourse in the courts. If it has been awhile then you must consult the statute of limitations state by state. This is a good place to start:

https://www.rainn.org/state-state-guide-statutes-limitations

Just to be clear, I am not a pot stirrer... and always look for the way to settle to everyone's satisfaction before the Lord, but I also believe God established the human government with its courts to execute His judgement on wrong-doers. So, I have no qualms about advising that IF THAT IS WHAT YOU NEED as the victim to gain closure.

Drake

[Cal]

Just to be clear, I am not a pot stirrer... and always look for the way to settle to everyone's satisfaction before the Lord, but I also believe God established the human government with its courts to execute His judgement on wrong-doers. So, I have no qualms about advising that IF THAT IS WHAT YOU NEED as the victim to gain closure.


God also established the Church government. And as I said before, the only reference the Lord Jesus made to the practical church was in establishing it as a place where little people can go to get JUSTICE for being wronged (Matt 18:15-17).

But do you think any of these abused sisters will get any satisfaction from the LR on that? You might as well think you'll see Drake dancing and quacking in a duck suit on America's Got Talent.

[JLBW]

God also established the Church government. And as I said before, the only reference the Lord Jesus made to the practical church was in establishing it as a place where little people can go to get JUSTICE for being wronged (Matt 18:15-17).

But do you think any of these abused sisters will get any satisfaction from the LR on that? You might as well think you'll see Drake dancing and quacking in a duck suit on America's Got Talent.

There will be no resolution in a LC overseen by the BBs. I have chosen to move on and find a place to meet with other believers that do not cover up sin.
If Drake would like to fund a civil law suit I'd be happy to let him fund it. Or I'd be happy if he facilitated a payment to reimburse my therapy, but my guess is his offer to help is limited to the useless post he made in reply to his ??s
My healing is between me and the Lord and my spouse. I posted on here only to refute the idea that sexual sin is a thing of the past. Many sisters don't want to be involved in stupid dialogues online. I've only recently gotten the strength to speak about my trauma.

[Drake]

God also established the Church government. And as I said before, the only reference the Lord Jesus made to the practical church was in establishing it as a place where little people can go to get JUSTICE for being wronged (Matt 18:15-17).

But do you think any of these abused sisters will get any satisfaction from the LR on that? You might as well think you'll see Drake dancing and quacking in a duck suit on America's Got Talent.

Yes on Matthew 18.

But no on your concept about what constitutes church government. The “LR” is not church government. In this case the church government included the offending elder and the other local elders that advised the sister to remain quiet. At least, that is what I heard. Apparently she complied with the advice for the interest of the unknowing spouse. Yet, it is understandable in retrospect that would not bring closure. So the last step of v17 applies here and becomes relevant.... that is, no resolution in the church therefore the offending brother should be treated like a Gentile. It’s not only a civil matter, it’s a criminal matter too.

Like I said before, this sister has every right to exercise her rights as a citizen, seek justice, and obtain proper closure. Any action must be in the Holy Spirit of course... and with those whom she trusts.

Drake

[Nell]

Thank you Nell! I feel stronger and freer now that I've said it out loud. But in also afraid of DCP and what they might try to do to shut me up. Could they sue me?

Yes. They could sue you. However, anybody can file a lawsuit any time against anyone for any reason. Frivolous lawsuits are filed and thrown out of court every day.

* A lawsuit against you by DCP, if it goes forward, could backfire. It could open a door for you to testify and call witnesses. Those who have also been abused could line up to tell their story in open court and name names. But who knows? DCP exists for the purpose of filing lawsuits.

* Does DCP have a cause of action against you? You have not damaged DCP. You could file a counter claim against it for harassment.

I used to be a legal secretary and legal assistant. I have a degree in "Law and Order". I know enough to be dangerous :yep::yep::yep:!

Your question "Can they sue me?" is exactly what DCP wants in the back of people's minds. This is the image it wants to portray. Because of DCP's litigious history, it looms large as a deterrent against anyone speaking out. It's history provides a bully pulpit without it saying a word. It wants people never to forget who is running the show: DCP.

Remember the Wizard of Oz? The man behind the curtain? His power was an illusion.

Nell

[Ohio]

There will be no resolution in a LC overseen by the BBs. I have chosen to move on and find a place to meet with other believers that do not cover up sin.

JLBW, what you have concluded here about the BB's is altogether correct, and I rejoice that you have decided to follow our Lord and Savior rather than to give up your faith. Your decisions bring shame to our enemy, and great glory to God. May the Lord bless you and keep you in His loving embrace.

I say this because LSM and the LC movement have left a long trail of victims in their wake. Rotten leaders have always been enabled by ones like Drake, who look the other way, bury their heads in the sand, and attack the whistle blower, all behind the guise of "righteousness." This is exactly what the Blendeds did for the Lee family, thus guaranteeing their own rise to power, and there's no reason to believe they will ever change.

What other ministry on earth maintains its own seasoned legal staff like DCP to protect itself from criminal and civil liability?

[Cal]

I say this because LSM and the LC movement have left a long trail of victims in their wake. Rotten leaders have always been enabled by ones like Drake, who look the other way, bury their heads in the sand, and attack the whistle blower, all behind the guise of "righteousness." This is exactly what the Blendeds did for the Lee family, thus guaranteeing their own rise to power, and there's no reason to believe they will ever change.


We have see the trail of victims come through this website.

Observers should know that we have nothing against the brothers and sisters in the LR nor the churches themselves. What we have a problem with is the systemic error of a movement with an ingrained mindset and trained conscience to defend the decisions and actions of LR leadership to practically the death. Certainly that mindset has resulted in the spiritual death of many of their victims, who are all treated like cannon fodder for the juggernaut of their "great and glorious" movement--the premise of which, as I shown many times, is a HOAX.

This is what Paul called a "stronghold"* of the devil in the mind's of people. And this is why when confronted with genuine reason, facts and the light of the word, supporters like Drake end up looking ridiculous. Yet they plod on, as if somehow God will reward them for their irrationality. Forever in denial, forever going in circles. In their minds they simply cannot be wrong, reason be damned.

Why? For no other reason than Brother Lee said so. They need nothing more than that. If their view conflicts with his, they always adjust their view to match, they never decide Lee was wrong. This is the bottom line implicit rule of membership in the movement. EVERYTHING is subordinate to the principle. That's the deal, and it is obviously a seriously unhealthy attitude. But there you have it.

They are not the first in history to hold such attitudes, nor are they the only on earth today. Their error has been seen and recorded in many spiritually abusive groups. A cursory examination of the information on the Internet will reveal that the attitudes and tactics used by the LR are common to such groups. They just happen to be the one that affected us, and which we feel obligated to resist and expose.

* For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ. 2 Cor 10:3-5

[Cal]

Yes on Matthew 18.

But no on your concept about what constitutes church government. The “LR” is not church government. In this case the church government included the offending elder and the other local elders that advised the sister to remain quiet. At least, that is what I heard. Apparently she complied with the advice for the interest of the unknowing spouse. Yet, it is understandable in retrospect that would not bring closure. So the last step of v17 applies here and becomes relevant.... that is, no resolution in the church therefore the offending brother should be treated like a Gentile. It’s not only a civil matter, it’s a criminal matter too.

Like I said before, this sister has every right to exercise her rights as a citizen, seek justice, and obtain proper closure. Any action must be in the Holy Spirit of course... and with those whom she trusts.

Drake

You are quibbling about unimportant details, as usual.

And if you are such a big shot in the LR, why don't you get your conscience in gear on this obvious trail of evidence and CLEAN UP YOUR OWN BACKYARD? If you love the LR so much you ought to be outraged and angry. Yet, as usual, nothing seems to ruffle your feathers, except when your pride gets hurt.

"If anyone causes one of these little ones--those who believe in me--to stumble, it would be better for them if a large millstone were hung around their neck and they were thrown into the sea." Mark 9:42

[Cal]

Do Not Oppress the Weak

You shall not mistreat any widow or fatherless child. Exodus 22:22

Woe to those who decree iniquitous decrees, and the writers who keep writing oppression, to turn aside the needy from justice and to rob the poor of my people of their right, that widows may be their spoil, and that they may make the fatherless their prey! What will you do on the day of punishment, in the ruin that will come from afar? To whom will you flee for help, and where will you leave your wealth? Nothing remains but to crouch among the prisoners or fall among the slain. For all this his anger has not turned away, and his hand is stretched out still. Isaiah 10:1-4

They have grown fat and sleek. They know no bounds in deeds of evil; they judge not with justice the cause of the fatherless, to make it prosper, and they do not defend the rights of the needy. Jeremiah 5:28

Your princes are rebels and companions of thieves. Everyone loves a bribe and runs after gifts. They do not bring justice to the fatherless, and the widow's cause does not come to them. Isaiah 1:23

Cursed be anyone who perverts the justice due to the sojourner, the fatherless, and the widow. Deuteronomy 27:19

Learn to do good; seek justice, correct oppression; bring justice to the fatherless, plead the widow's cause. Isaiah 1:17

Thus says the Lord of hosts, Render true judgments, show kindness and mercy to one another, do not oppress the widow, the fatherless, the sojourner, or the poor, and let none of you devise evil against another in your heart. Zechariah 7:9-10

Vindicate the weak and fatherless; Do justice to the afflicted and destitute. Rescue the weak and needy; Deliver them out of the hand of the wicked. Psalm 82:3-4

May he vindicate the afflicted of the people, Save the children of the needy, And crush the oppressor. Psalm 72:4

The LORD also will be a stronghold for the oppressed, A stronghold in times of trouble; Psalm 9:9

O LORD, God of vengeance, God of vengeance, shine forth! Rise up, O Judge of the earth, Render recompense to the proud. How long shall the wicked, O LORD, How long shall the wicked exult? Psalm 94:1-7

[Cal]

Do Justice

It is not good to be partial to the wicked or to deprive the righteous of justice. Proverbs 18:5

You shall not pervert the justice due to your poor in his lawsuit. Exodus 23:6

To do righteousness and justice is more acceptable to the Lord than sacrifice. Proverbs 21:3

Justice, and only justice, you shall follow, that you may live and inherit the land that the Lord your God is giving you. Deuteronomy 16:20

Open your mouth for the mute, for the rights of all who are destitute. Open your mouth, judge righteously, defend the rights of the poor and needy. Proverbs 31:8-9

For I the Lord love justice; I hate robbery and wrong. Isaiah 61:8

A righteous man knows the rights of the poor; a wicked man does not understand such knowledge. Proverbs 29:7

Does God pervert justice? Or does the Almighty pervert the right? Job 8:3

I know that the Lord will maintain the cause of the afflicted, and will execute justice for the needy. Psalm 140:12

Thus says the Lord: “Keep justice, and do righteousness, for soon my salvation will come, and my deliverance be revealed." Isaiah 56:1

“But woe to you Pharisees! For you tithe mint and rue and every herb, and neglect justice and the love of God. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others." Luke 11:42

For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, when all the arrogant and all evildoers will be stubble. The day that is coming shall set them ablaze, says the Lord of hosts, so that it will leave them neither root nor branch. Malachi 4:1

[Ohio]

Yes on Matthew 18.

But no on your concept about what constitutes church government. The “LR” is not church government. In this case the church government included the offending elder and the other local elders that advised the sister to remain quiet. At least, that is what I heard. Apparently she complied with the advice for the interest of the unknowing spouse. Yet, it is understandable in retrospect that would not bring closure. So the last step of v17 applies here and becomes relevant.... that is, no resolution in the church therefore the offending brother should be treated like a Gentile. It’s not only a civil matter, it’s a criminal matter too.

Like I said before, this sister has every right to exercise her rights as a citizen, seek justice, and obtain proper closure. Any action must be in the Holy Spirit of course... and with those whom she trusts.

Drake
Isn't it interesting that LC action (really inaction, or wrongful action) was self-servingly designed to "protect" the interest of the unknowing spouse. How deceitful! If every case was handled in this way, no criminal would ever be held accountable. There is always someone who needs "protecting." The Apostle Paul, however, demanded that "those who sin should be rebuked before all, that all be in fear." (I Tim. 5.20) Obviously this would include the family of the abusing, molesting elder. I am also a firm believer that those who sin in this way may be restored after repentance to communion as a brother, (e.g. II Cor. 2.6-7) but never be restored to church or ministry office.

For decades Witness Lee protected his boys from culpability. WL was merely protecting himself and his ministry while the list of victims grew. WL would relocate some of these victims to other churches, claiming that he would "handle his sons" personally. Yet matters only grew worse.

The so-called and much-discussed "storms" or quarantines of the late 80's and the late 90's in Anaheim were simply WL coverups for his boys. The facts of history have proven this conclusively. Instead of WL rebuking his sons before all, he attacked the accusers, the whistle blowers, by accusing them of a vast global conspiracy, branding them as rebellious lepers, worthy of expulsion, and smearing their reputations before all.

WL and the Blendeds should have been imprisoned for libel and slander based on what they did to other men of God for speaking their conscience to protect God's children. What they did was despicable. It was criminal. All to protect known degenerates like Lee's own sons. (Read what happened to Eli, whose sons were similar. I Samuel 2.12-17, 22-25, 27-34, 4.12-18)

Yet ones like Drake, who claims to stand up in defense of these victims, remains absolutely silent as to the actions of both Witness Lee and the Blendeds during those pathetic times. The level of dishonesty he displays is appalling. Today's Blendeds (BP, MC, RG, MC, etc.) scammed a hoax on the LC's, which was perpetuated for decades.

[Nell]

This is what happened when the family of the abuser was protected. What has always amazed me is that these elders KNEW scripturally what they should do, but were directly influenced by Witness Lee's personal intervention via BP.

Post #27 below.

The Shameful Behavior Continues

Poster “Hope” has revealed his own name: Don Rutledge. I believe this is common knowledge now.

The posts below do not make it clear, but there were two instances of sexual immorality discussed below. Don Rutledge (Hope) revealed the first instance when Ben McPherson confessed to Ray Graver. I don’t have an exact date for the conversation among the 5 elders below, but it can be traced back to the approximate time that Ben moved to Tyler, which we also don’t have an exact date for. If someone has this date (Don?) please post it.

The second instance occurred quite a few years later, and was discovered in 1991. If not for Witness Lee, Benson and Ray, the sisters in Irving, Arlington, Dallas and Fort Worth would have at least known that there was a sexual predator among them. Instead, they never knew...until the unthinkable happened. How many sisters today know that there are sexual predators among them in the Local Churches????

…and the history of sexual sin and sexual abuse in the Local Churches continues.


The Public Square (http://www.thebereans.net/forum2/index.php)
- Nee, Lee & the Church of Recovery


SECOND IMMORAL CASE (EMPHASIS BY NELL TO CLARIFY)
Ben McPherson had an affair with the wife of a brother he had served with in the Local Church in Houston, and then divorced his wife. When the affair was found out, she divorced her husband.

Ben is now married to his brother's former wife. She was my friend, my sister in the Lord, and a spiritual mother to me for years. Some of us tried to help rescue her, but we all failed.

We begged Benson Phillips to try and help rescue these two marriages too. Benson was close to all the parties involved and was responsible for a serious problem which only he could clear up. He was too busy. He had to fly off to spread the church life to Russia. KSA can tell you how well that went.

Ben's children and his brother's children all grew up together in Houston.

Nell 10-29-07 09:38
________________________________________
Quote Thankful: post #102

If anyone "in-the-know" in Texas had spoken out "negatively" about Ben M.'s condition many years ago when it was discovered, what happened to the brother who lost his wife might have been avoided.

Whoever knew and didn't tell bears a measure of responsibility in that situation since Ben M. was an elder and should have been publicly corrected. Ben M. might have even been helped. Instead, it looks like he was "protected" at his own expense and at the expense of the uninformed sheep.

No Christian likes to hear these kind of things about a fellow believer. But then again, neither does anyone like to hear a doctor say they have cancer.

If a doctor isn't willing to speak "negatively" when cancer is found, he plays a part in the outcome.

Thankful

Nell 10-29-07 09:42
________________________________________
Hope: #103

Regarding Ben McPhersons immorality, this is the report from a first hand witness: Ray Graver was the first to know. He contacted Benson Phillips who called for an urgent gathering at his home with Ray, Joe Davis of Houston, Don Looper of Austin and Don Rutledge of Dallas. This occurred the morning after Ben was found out. All the brothers there were furious. Don Rutledge angrily declared that they had all been betrayed. All agreed that Ben should be publicly excommunicated and publicly rebuked that all may fear. All agreed that the Lord could not bless the church in Irving due to Ben’s sin. Ben had confessed to Ray that this sin was not a one time thing but had been going on for some time including when he was in Arlington. Ben also admitted that he knew the Church in Arlington had lagged the other Dallas area churches in blessing due to his sin. At that time, none of these brothers would sympathize with any immorality and especially from an elder or co-worker.

While they were meeting, Witness Lee returned Bensons urgent message. After about a 30 minute conversation, Benson returned to the room where the brothers were waiting, still in a state of shock and outrage. Witness Lee urged them to consider Bens family and the harm to them if he was publicly exposed. He urged them not to publicly excommunicate him but simply ask him to move away. That is what Ray and Benson decided to do. The other three had big reservations but deferred to the Irving brothers to take care of the matter.

But then the lying started. Many people began to call wanting to know what happened to Ben. Since Witness Lee, Benson and Ray had decided to keep the real situation under wraps, what where these brothers to say. Looper and Rutledge would say that something must have happened in Irving and they did not know for sure – A LIE. Benson and Ray told various stories, Ben wanted to get away etc and not to worry since he was in fellowship.

Witness Lee urged Benson and Ray to spend time with Ben and seek to recover him, but they were too disgusted to seek to contact him.

Yes the worldly wisdom from Witness Lee and the unfaithfulness of the five brothers led to more tragedy. All five have an account to give at the judgment seat.

Hope

In Christ Jesus there is hope for us all.

[Cal]

Yet ones like Drake, who claims to stand up in defense of these victims, remains absolutely silent as to the actions of both Witness Lee and the Blendeds during those pathetic times. The level of dishonesty he displays is appalling. Today's Blendeds (BP, MC, RG, MC, etc.) scammed a hoax on the LC's, which was perpetuated for decades.

Drake is a master at focusing on a detail while missing the larger picture (gnats and camels?). He seems to acknowledge that an offense occurred, yet fails to put two and two together and realize that the leadership he so vigorously defends engineered the cover-up for this offense and others! All while they claimed to be the designated caretakers of "the Lord's Recovery."

What is the Lord recovering here? Treachery? Subterfuge? Injustice? Lying? Cover-up? Victimizing? Oppression? Damage?

Is there a new LSM book coming out, with a typically turgid LR title like, "The Treacherous, Unjust, Lying Cover-up Consummating in the Oppressed, Victimized and Damaged Sisters"?

That one I would buy! Much better than "The Fermentation of the Present Rebellion!"

[Cal]

This is what happened when the family of the abuser was protected. What has always amazed me is that these elders KNEW scripturally what they should do, but were directly influenced by Witness Lee's personal intervention via BP.


Nell, I'm afraid we are going to need some more detail here. I wasn't aware that Ben M. was an "abuser." I thought his issue and that of the elder's wife he had an affair with (I know who she is because I was in Austin) was one of mutual consent. Not good, but not necessarily abuse. Can you clarify please? Thanks.

[Ohio]

Nell, I'm afraid we are going to need some more detail here. I wasn't aware that Ben M. was an "abuser." I thought his issue and that of the elder's wife he had an affair with (I know who she is because I was in Austin) was one of mutual consent. Not good, but not necessarily abuse. Can you clarify please? Thanks.
When someone in a powerful position has an affair with a subordinate staff member, a church member, or an employee, it can be both consensual and abusive.

[Cal]

When someone in a powerful position has an affair with a subordinate staff member, a church member, or an employee, it can be both consensual and abusive.

Ok, I can see that.

[Nell]

Nell, I'm afraid we are going to need some more detail here. I wasn't aware that Ben M. was an "abuser." I thought his issue and that of the elder's wife he had an affair with (I know who she is because I was in Austin) was one of mutual consent. Not good, but not necessarily abuse. Can you clarify please? Thanks.


It’s in the post. Read the red section by Don Rutledge marked 103. This happened 15-20 years before Ben seduced his brother’s wife as you refer to.

[JLBW]

Is there a new LSM book coming out, with a typically turgid LR title like, "The Treacherous, Unjust, Lying Cover-up Consummating in the Oppressed, Victimized and Damaged Sisters"?
That one I would buy! Much better than "The Fermentation of the Present Rebellion!"

I would buy that book!

Thank all of you dear ones for the verses and sharing. You all have said what I've been saying since I was targeted, groomed, and assaulted.
May the Lord continue to heal and cover all the wronged.

Oh....anyone know what happened to Drake? I was waiting for that help he offered.....you know, for healing and recompense?? Maybe he's too busy now?��

[Nell]

I think Drake is too busy now...writing a new book...I heard there's one on its way out. I can only imagine the title. I can't wait. :lurk5:

Nell

[Drake]

Oh....anyone know what happened to Drake? I was waiting for that help he offered.....you know, for healing and recompense?? Maybe he's too busy now?��

JLBW,

I'm here.

The help you seek will not be found by surrounding yourself with enablers who cheer you on to relive your traumatic experience. Neither is there healing in accusing others who would be just as appalled as I am at what happened to you based on your testimony here. Rather, you should trust in the Lord to guide you in the practical steps to heal, and that might include a confrontation.... and sometimes closure can only be had by justice meted out by the authorities that He has set up for that purpose. Sorry, I have no money for you. It is in the courts where personal damage is assessed in monetary terms. If you have the peace before the Lord then pursue that and find a lawyer who operates on a contingency fee if cash flow is an issue.

Do what He tells you. He is the Healer.

Drake

[Cal]

The help you seek will not be found by surrounding yourself with enablers who cheer you on to relive your traumatic experience.

"Enablers?"

So, if we support and encourage a sister who has been sexually abused by a religious leader in a domineering religious organization, which we know has indoctrinated its followers (she being one) to be intimidated by and cower from the very thought of challenging said leaders--some of whom are those very sexual abusers!--then it is we who are "enablers?"

But, if said domineering religious movement shuffles around those very sexual abusers and victims like checkers on the grand checkerboard of their whacked-out plan, never punishing the guilty or affording justice to the victims, what are they? Are they not enablers?

I appreciate your soft words to the sister, disingenuous though they may be. But, as usual, you have missed the mountain for the molehill.

[Nell]

JLBW,

I'm here.

The help you seek will not be found by surrounding yourself with enablers who cheer you on to relive your traumatic experience. Neither is there healing in accusing others who would be just as appalled as I am at what happened to you based on your testimony here. Rather, you should trust in the Lord to guide you in the practical steps to heal, and that might include a confrontation.... and sometimes closure can only be had by justice meted out by the authorities that He has set up for that purpose. Sorry, I have no money for you. It is in the courts where personal damage is assessed in monetary terms. If you have the peace before the Lord then pursue that and find a lawyer who operates on a contingency fee if cash flow is an issue.

Do what He tells you. He is the Healer.

Drake

Not bad though....Did you find that with Google?

[Drake]

Not bad though....Did you find that with Google?

The heart.

[Nell]

The heart.

Whose heart?

[JLBW]

Maybe I should clarify? I'm good Drake. These enablers are helping me to speak out about abuse and that has set me free from a dark and lonely place. They are the real saints of God who have left a system of lawlessness that coversup sin. You have chosen to remain and I'd ask that you do something to protect all the sisters that are still meeting. How do you plan to not be accountable for the sin of your leaders now that you know it's current and ongoing? We all will answer for our choices. My choice to leave is my choice to stand against the sin. I still love the body but I'll never be ok with sin in my midst!
I pray you find the voice to call out the BBs about their complicity with sin. That would be a huge benefit to the LC. Maybe pray about that.
As for me , I'm living untothe Lord. I'm not wallowing in sadness. And no one on this board has discouraged me from that. Much to the contrary❤
Since you didn't want to know details I suppose you feel this has nothing to do with you. But Im not sure how the Lord feels....maybe check with Him. Are you accountable now that you know?

[Nell]

Maybe I should clarify? I'm good Drake. These enablers are helping me to speak out about abuse and that has set me free from a dark and lonely place. They are the real saints of God who have left a system of lawlessness that coversup sin. You have chosen to remain and I'd ask that you do something to protect all the sisters that are still meeting. How do you plan to not be accountable for the sin of your leaders now that you know it's current and ongoing? We all will answer for our choices. My choice to leave is my choice to stand against the sin. I still love the body but I'll never be ok with sin in my midst!
I pray you find the voice to call out the BBs about their complicity with sin. That would be a huge benefit to the LC. Maybe pray about that.
As for me , I'm living untothe Lord. I'm not wallowing in sadness. And no one on this board has discouraged me from that. Much to the contrary❤
Since you didn't want to know details I suppose you feel this has nothing to do with you. But Im not sure how the Lord feels....maybe check with Him. Are you accountable now that you know?

Amen and amen.

Nell

[Ohio]

"Enablers?"

So, if we support and encourage a sister who has been sexually abused by a religious leader in a domineering religious organization, which we know has indoctrinated its followers (she being one) to be intimidated by and cower from the very thought of challenging said leaders--some of whom are those very sexual abusers!--then it is we who are "enablers?"

But, if said domineering religious movement shuffles around those very sexual abusers and victims like checkers on the grand checkerboard of their whacked-out plan, never punishing the guilty or affording justice to the victims, what are they? Are they not enablers?

I appreciate your soft words to the sister, disingenuous though they may be. But, as usual, you have missed the mountain for the molehill.
Too bad the all wise Drake could not provide comfort to the Blendeds who got their feelings hurt by Heritage House. Perhaps Drake could have comforted them, and saved the saints all that money when they took their lawsuit all the way to the SCOTUS.

[Nell]

Too bad the all wise Drake could not provide comfort to the Blendeds who got their feelings hurt by Heritage House. Perhaps Drake could have comforted them, and saved the saints all that money when they took their lawsuit all the way to the SCOTUS.

Harvest House?

[Ohio]

Harvest House?
Yeah, thanks.

LSM’s unsuccessful litigation against Harvest House regarding the Encyclopedia of Cults & New Religions by John Ankerberg & John Weldon.

[Cal]

I'm struck as to how the LSM BBs can swing their weight far and wide amongst the LC churches, thumping their chests and overstepping their bounds to discipline and fire elders and shut down churches for perceived infractions--anything from not buying enough printed materials, to speaking unapproved teachings, to using unapproved music. But when a leader sexually abuses a sister, they suddenly fall silent and impotent. No indignation. No chest thumping. No proclamations. No websites. No justice for the injured. Just fecklessness, excuse making and sheepish relocation.

Obviously, Lee set the precedent by trying to cover up his sons sins. So now it's standard practice, the fruit of "follow Lee, right or wrong!" Shameful!

[Nell]

I'm struck as to how the LSM BBs can swing their weight far and wide amongst the LC churches, thumping their chests and overstepping their bounds to discipline and fire elders and shut down churches for perceived infractions--anything from not buying enough printed materials, to speaking unapproved teachings, to using unapproved music. But when a leader sexually abuses a sister, they suddenly fall silent and impotent. No indignation. No chest thumping. No proclamations. No websites. No justice for the injured. Just fecklessness, excuse making and sheepish relocation.

Obviously, Lee set the precedent by trying to cover up his sons sins. So now it's standard practice, the fruit of "follow Lee, right or wrong!" Shameful!

This is exactly how it's done:

Hope: #103

Regarding Ben McPhersons immorality, this is the report from a first hand witness: Ray Graver was the first to know. He contacted Benson Phillips who called for an urgent gathering at his home with Ray, Joe Davis of Houston, Don Looper of Austin and Don Rutledge of Dallas. This occurred the morning after Ben was found out. All the brothers there were furious. Don Rutledge angrily declared that they had all been betrayed. All agreed that Ben should be publicly excommunicated and publicly rebuked that all may fear. All agreed that the Lord could not bless the church in Irving due to Ben’s sin. Ben had confessed to Ray that this sin was not a one time thing but had been going on for some time including when he was in Arlington. Ben also admitted that he knew the Church in Arlington had lagged (behind) the other Dallas area churches in blessing due to his sin. At that time, none of these brothers would sympathize with any immorality and especially from an elder or co-worker.

While they were meeting, Witness Lee...

You don't have to read any further. But I would add to the list of sinful behavior by these elders: cowardice, ambition and idol worship of Witness Lee.

Nell

[Ohio]

This is exactly how it's done:

You don't have to read any further. But I would add to the list of sinful behavior by these elders: cowardice, ambition and idol worship of Witness Lee.

Nell

Sounds more like "man-pleasing" to me.

[Nell]

Sounds more like "man-pleasing" to me.

That too.

And the list goes on...

[aron]

I'd add to the list of sinful behavior by these elders: cowardice, ambition and idol worship of Witness Lee.

Nell

In the LC we were told to "take Christ as our person", but instead we got a persona, an act, covering a man-made system that invited abuse, up to and including sexual abuse. Everything was for the system, which was deemed sacrosanct. In this the LC was no different from the RCC, Miramax, or PSU Football. Evil men abused the system, and "system men" (and women) abetted their abuses.

The "Christ" of the LC didn't care for the poor, often denigrated women, didn't care for righteousness ("we don't care about right and wrong, but about 'life'"), was all about man-pleasing, and was only interested in the scripture inasmuch as it could be used as a prop for the system.

The person of the Bible is Jesus. He would never do this stuff, he would never condone this stuff, he would never look the other way and pretend. Never. No chance.

He hung out with sinners, which shocked many, but he himself was righteous, compassionate, giving, and holy. He would not and could not participate in schemes of deceit and treachery. He was full of respect (love, compassion, care) for others. None of us match him in full. At best we can faintly reflect him in part. But let's not kid ourselves, and presume to be something we're not.

If we focus on him, and him alone, all other reality will emerge. "Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made" ~John 1:3 NIV

[Ohio]

In the LC we were told to "take Christ as our person", but instead we got a persona, an act, covering a man-made system that invited abuse, up to and including sexual abuse. Everything was for the system, which was deemed sacrosanct. In this the LC was no different from the RCC, Miramax, or PSU Football. Evil men abused the system, and "system men" (and women) abetted their abuses.

Constantly in the system we were indoctrinated that the "ministry was for the churches," but all the evidence was to the contrary. When the Midwest received anonymous mailings of chaos in Anaheim, we were all told by TC, "shame on those elders," and the "mistakes of my spiritual father are none of my business." But who stood up for righteousness? And who asked the Lord what we should do?

We were indoctrinated in a system watching all the brothers regularly rebuked by the "master," both in Anaheim and Cleveland. Yet simultaneously we were warned that the master was never to be critiqued. Remember what happened to Noah's son? Cursed. Remember what happened to Moses' sister? Leprosy.

What teaching could create such a dangerous system as the Recovery? Deputy authority. The teaching that one man on earth in every age stood in place of God to rule over others. Such a man alone had the oracle of God, and such a man alone was above reproach, the recovery's version of "the infallibility of the Pope." A recipe for abuse and corruption. The license to abuse others and personally escape all culpability. With these ingredients, abuse happens every time. With the Lee family, it was happening all the time.

Never forget that abuse breeds more abuse. Brothers abused then abuse others. I've seen it. I've lived it. I'm guilty too. Apostle Paul, on the contrary, was gentle towards all, as a nursing mother, night and day with tears. Examples of his love for the saints are sprinkled throughout the N.T. Never forget that love breeds more love. Brothers loved then love others.

Regarding the abuses suffered in the Recovery, it's amazing how a little sunshine could have healed us by exposing the sin. This has always been my biggest complaint about Witness Lee. It's one thing to have rotten kids, it's another thing to let them damage the children of God. Lee not only let "the damage" run wild, but he would smear the reputations of any and all whistleblowers. Then for months in the aftermath we would be instructed how evil these whistleblowers were, and how Lee himself was brutally "victimized." Disgusting! Just disgusting!

[Cal]

What teaching could create such a dangerous system as the Recovery? Deputy authority. The teaching that one man on earth in every age stood in place of God to rule over others. Such a man alone had the oracle of God, and such a man alone was above reproach, the recovery's version of "the infallibility of the Pope." A recipe for abuse and corruption. The license to abuse others and personally escape all culpability. With these ingredients, abuse happens every time. With the Lee family, it was happening all the time.


Yes, the potential for corruption is built into the model. I've made the point before that corruption is inevitable in church group that operates under the deputy authority model, because (1) such power corrupts and, (2) once the corruption starts, the model must cover it up and destroy whistleblowers to preserve the image of the deputy authority, which the model needs to continue. So the very preservation of the model itself ensures someone is going to get run over.

In the LR, this is just part of the routine. Everyone there is either ignorant of it or in denial about it.

[JLBW]

I'm not sure if posting here had anything to do with what is happening in our life right now but we left our LC recently but last night we learned of gossip and are now being quarantined.....for leaving due to sexual abuse that we kept covered except for sharing with a few trusted friends. I guess it's time to make a formal announcement!?
Thankfully we are out but this song came to mind last night and I wanted to share


"Welcome to the Hotel California
Such a lovely place (such a lovely place)
Such a lovely face.
They livin' it up at the Hotel California
What a nice surprise (what a nice surprise), bring your alibis

Mirrors on the ceiling,
The pink champagne on ice
And she said, 'we are all just prisoners here, of our own device'
And in the master's chambers,
They gathered for the feast
They stab it with their steely knives,
But they just can't kill the beast

Last thing I remember, I was
Running for the door
I had to find the passage back to the place I was before
'Relax' said the night man,
'We are programmed to receive.
You can check out any time you like,
But you can never leave!'

[Cal]

I'm not sure if posting here had anything to do with what is happening in our life right now but we left our LC recently but last night we learned of gossip and are now being quarantined.....for leaving due to sexual abuse that we kept covered except for sharing with a few trusted friends. I guess it's time to make a formal announcement!?


There you go. The other shoe drops. Quarantined for sharing and responding to the truth about being abused. That's "the Lord's Recovery" for you. Where down is up and up is down. How could such a place ever seriously make the claim of being "God's best."

From what I've seen of you, sister, you have a strength and confidence that is impressive. I think that and your faith will get you through just fine. Life throws us bewildering curve balls. I recently went through a quite unexpected divorce. I have two teenagers. Traumatic doesn't even begin to describe it. But I have learned, like never before, how God can cause bad things to work for good. That he will do if we just keep trusting and give it all back to him.

But at least you can be clear that this group, for all the good things there, is nothing special, and in fact has many problems which should lead Christians to avoid it. Take the good with you, including any friendships you can maintain. Leave the bad behind. Be positive and forward-looking. Walk in freedom. Be big-hearted. But... remain as wise as a serpent.

Great song, too!

[JLBW]

Thank you brother! I believe my marriage will survive now that we left but it was really hard while we were meeting. Here's a song I found thanks to this DB where people share hymns.
https://youtu.be/8mrhPqeQRgI
You are correct Im a fighter!

[Cal]

Thank you brother! I believe my marriage will survive now that we left but it was really hard while we were meeting. Here's a song I found thanks to this DB where people share hymns.
https://youtu.be/8mrhPqeQRgI
You are correct Im a fighter!:thumbsup:

[Ohio]

I'm not sure if posting here had anything to do with what is happening in our life right now but we left our LC recently but last night we learned of gossip and are now being quarantined.....for leaving due to sexual abuse that we kept covered except for sharing with a few trusted friends. I guess it's time to make a formal announcement!?
Thankfully we are out but this song came to mind last night and I wanted to share.

Like Igzy said, be wise as a serpent, JLBW. Seek wise counsel, and make sure your close friends and support system are on board. Pray much, that the Lord gives you clear leading. Do so as a part of your own healthy journey in the Lord, and not as retaliation.

If God is for us, whom shall we fear? And if the Lord allowed King David, a man after His own heart, to be exposed for every one else in history to see and to learn, then none of us can hide in the darkness with some "fig leaf" covering.

[JLBW]

I'm a professional counselor so I'm not going to get baited into anything that would put me in the public eye. I'm pretty private actually. So I will need to be careful and allow the Lord to lead. But I'm not getting pushed around any more either. You all have been so gracious and kind. The Lord is alive and well in the saints!

[Nell]

I'm not sure if posting here had anything to do with what is happening in our life right now but we left our LC recently but last night we learned of gossip and are now being quarantined.....for leaving due to sexual abuse that we kept covered except for sharing with a few trusted friends. I guess it's time to make a formal announcement!?
Thankfully we are out but this song came to mind last night and I wanted to share


I'm a professional counselor so I'm not going to get baited into anything that would put me in the public eye. I'm pretty private actually. So I will need to be careful and allow the Lord to lead. But I'm not getting pushed around any more either. You all have been so gracious and kind. The Lord is alive and well in the saints!

JLBW, you know what you're doing. If you think a formal announcement is appropriate, I trust your judgment. You were assaulted by an elder. You were bullied into silence, now you are being quarantined by gossipmongers ... for what? NOT speaking out?

You might consider writing your statement, that every word be established. First read it to the criminal, and his wife. This is scriptural. Record your meeting, tell them it’s being recorded. If he doesn’t make it right with you and your family, to your satisfaction, take the next step. If you follow Matthew 18:15-17, the next step would be to go and take with you witnesses. Next is "tell it to the church". There is a Witness Lee/LC perpetrated myth out there that "tell it to the church" means "tell it to the elders". Not true. Telling the elders only is an invitation for covering sin...as we have seen ad nauseaum.

"Tell it to the church" means TELL IT TO THE CHURCH. Tell the faithful. Tell those who could be effected by the sin of others. "The church" is not restricted to a geographical location. If there are two locations effected by the sinning brother, there is no reason they should not be included.

For elders, it's worse:

I Timothy 5:19-21 Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses. 20 But those elders who are sinning you are to reprove before everyone, so that the others may take warning. 21 I charge you, in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels, to keep these instructions without partiality, and to do nothing out of favoritism.

You've already done this. One elder abused you, and another bunch abused you by their sinful cowardice.

The sinning elder should be the one making a formal announcement. That would be a start. It’s his mess to clean up. He is responsible, along with those cowards who covered it up. Don’t make any threats. You don’t need to. If he can’t figure out what he should do, that’s his problem. What you do shouldn’t be contingent on what he does, or doesn’t do. If you give him an ultimatum, he could use it against you. Don't give him or the cowards anything they could use against you.

Just my thoughts...

Nell

[JLBW]

Thanks nell!
I'll let God be the final judge. It's time for my family to move on. Besides I'm almost positive that men involved in this cover up are aware of how I feel now that I've posted it on this DB. They know that I feel they should do the honorable thing and repay us for the cost of their cover up. I'll let God be the judge between us. He's very good at being God!
May God bless all of you on here and keep us all going on in spite of our wounds and suffering. Please pray for my family as we are all still working on healing.

[Awoken]

[Hm.. removing this for now, so as not to take focus off the things being spoken of. Suffice it to say I sympathize, at least to some degree, with the victims of these wrongdoings.]

[Nell]

Bringing this forward again. There is a tremendous amount of information, including first-hand accounts about the abuse occurring in the LC Leadership. It began with Witness Lee himself when he covered up his son Philip's behavior.

Another topic to review is "What's going on in OKC (http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vBulletin/showthread.php?t=6803)".

From the "ChurchKid" video, we see the pattern continues in epidemic proportions.

Nell

[ACuriousFellow]

I've stumbled upon this thread while searching for information on this forum regarding Houston and Andrea McArdle.

My heart goes out to those brave enough to share their testimony here.

I'm not certain how to support such people. I know there are sisters in my locality who suffer in that denomination known as The Lord's Recovery. They are depressed and weak and find no nourishment in Witness Lee's so-called "Ministry of the Age."

I have a deep-seated fear because one teenage sister in particular has apparently experienced something deeply traumatic in recent years. She showed many outward signs in her appearance, speech, and mannerisms, and then her mother informed me that something terrible had indeed happened but that she would not share the details in order to protect her daughter.

After finding out about this history of abuse and covering-up in Witness Lee's sect known as The Local Churches, I can't help but tremble at the thought that she may have gone through something similar.

I simply don't know how to help, and it drives me mad. Even when I was in it I did not know how to help, much less now that I have left.

[Nell]

I've stumbled upon this thread while searching for information on this forum regarding Houston and Andrea McArdle.

My heart goes out to those brave enough to share their testimony here.

I'm not certain how to support such people. I know there are sisters in my locality who suffer in that denomination known as The Lord's Recovery. They are depressed and weak and find no nourishment in Witness Lee's so-called "Ministry of the Age."

I have a deep-seated fear because one teenage sister in particular has apparently experienced something deeply traumatic in recent years. She showed many outward signs in her appearance, speech, and mannerisms, and then her mother informed me that something terrible had indeed happened but that she would not share the details in order to protect her daughter.

After finding out about this history of abuse and covering-up in Witness Lee's sect known as The Local Churches, I can't help but tremble at the thought that she may have gone through something similar.

I simply don't know how to help, and it drives me mad. Even when I was in it I did not know how to help, much less now that I have left.

Suggestions:

Consider encouraging the one you're so concerned about, possibly through the mother, to seek professional counseling.

If you know the mother well enough, consider referring her to this forum topic, if only to let them know they are not alone.

As noted in the original post, sexual abuse is a crime.

At some point the issue may present itself that "protecting her daughter" may also be "protecting 'the church'".

I hope this helps.
Nell