Camil0
01-20-2016, 03:45 PM
Hi all. I visited these forums years back when I had just come out of the LC, but eventually needed to break away from thinking about the whole thing.
I left a small locality that wasn't quite Great Lake's Area and was definitely not a ministry church anymore. we were really isolated and on our own, and our internal dynamic was extremely unhealthy. leaving was explosive. in the course of about a year some events occurred and "I woke up" to realize that I was no longer able to think for myself. We were locked into a very small controlling group and every part of our life was scrutinized and had to meet their approval. My wife and I had been in it for 10 years and had been through so much. some things had happened that demonstrated that the group had complete control over my mind and will and i was willing to pretty much sacrifice everything precious on the altar of their approval. my wife looked at me and said "what ever happened to the man of God I used to know?" God orchestrated some events that caused us to be fairly swiftly ejected - most painful experience of my life. Within a year my wife left me as well. She was angry that I had brought her through the whole thing and she felt that so many years of her life were just wasted because of my "spiritual quest".
I was lost. Although I had come out of the LC I had not come out of its doctrines. I had read some things on this forum that helped, and the thread of gold, but I still had such a high regard for '"God's Economy", and held the view that christianity had neglected Christ, that the clergy system had nullified/replaced the function of the members, and that we should meet on the "ground."
Prior to coming to LC I had been in a large Charismatic church for many years and suffered a lot of accusations and persecution there because of my love for the word. I had led a lot of people to the lord when i first was saved and we all ended up going to the charismatic church. over time most of us lost track of each other and were absorbed in the system. when one of this group committed suicide we reconvened for a bible study which I led - just to be together and enjoy the word - it lasted for about a year and a half. I was accused of being a sheep stealer, trying to start a church, being a wolf - all kinds of scary negative things. in the bible study i had hit on ephesians 4 regarding the Gifts perfecting the saints for the work of ministry to build up the body, and it sounded to some there that I was speaking against the authority/ministry of that church and I was reported. I believed all the accusations and spent another year trying to stay there and be "submitted" to a leadership that wouldn't even talk to me. during that time all I could do was read books and I eventually stumbled on Witness Lee. His speaking about the body of Christ confirmed a lot of what I felt I had seen in the Bible, and when I read his book "God's New Testament Economy" I was hooked. I eventually read the Life STudy of Hebrews and was convinced I had to be a "river crosser" and go find the local church. When I attended the first meeting it was like heaven on earth. What I had been reading about for a year and half seemed to be true and real and it was wonderful. I knew that LC was considered to be a cult by many (I had done my "homework") but I felt that the real New Testament church would of course be perceived to be a cult, and I had already been ostracized for my love of the word. I felt I had found my new home, and the first year was pretty wonderful. I was one of the few caucasians and they were pretty dead at the time. When I came I was already able to articulate their views very strongly and speak in the meetings and "function", plus I tried to bring many of my friends into the church. This sort of revived the church for a time and I was the new favorite of the elder. That didn't last too long - the honeymoon period lasted about 6 months. Anyway although many of my friends came and stayed for awhile, they found the all absorbing requirements of the church life to be too high, and they didn't stay. I assumed it was because they loved the world too much to take the narrow way we had found. So I lost all contact with my friends and pretty much "disappeared" for the next 10 years, and those 10 years were pretty miserable. lots can be said about all that in other conversations i guess.
When I came out, I felt like a failure. I knew I could no longer endure the church life, not because I had seen so much that I had been deceived - but because I just couldn't fit in and couldn't bear the pressure anymore. I thoguht for sure I was defeated and would end up in outer darkness. I couldn't go back to christianity, that's for sure. So I ended up alone and the isolation destroyed what was left of my empty marriage.
Eventually I did remarry. my new wife - also was a charismatic who read "thread of gold" an had some understanding of what I'd been through in the LC. we found a small church of very zealous believers - mostly young people and started attending there. we were there for about 2 years, and the pastor was very imprsesed with my views concerning christ and the church. we had lots of discussions and i thought i was going to somehow import the LC template to this group or something. but this pastor was a covenant calvinist / reformed guy and I was frustrated that in his preaching he revealed that he did not distinguish between israel and the church, and put believers under the law. there was never anything of the new creation. ( as i was struggling with their doctrine i was also finally able to sort out many of the theological issues that plagued me about the LC.) but i also noticed a trend that this church's leadership was increasingly abusive and controlling. eventually i said too much and we were "asked" to leave. actually in a one on one meeting with the pastor i found myself having an absolute anxiety attack, and later i realized that i was experiencing PTSD beacuse of my dramatic exit from the LC, which as I said before was explosive.
The next two years I spent with no church, which was very hard on my wife and marriage. but I had to use that time to really "Detox" and discover what I believed. In that time God led me back to a very simple discovery of the Gospel and my security in Christ, and althoguh I had wandered from Him into various religoius systems, He was with me the whole time and would never stop bearing witness that I am His Child. He would lead me through to the end.
Now we are in a small baptist church, and honestly I don't agree with about 60-80% of what is said. but most churches in our area are covenant calvinist and that doctrinal system is just absolutely terrible. honestly I find myself "playing church" to keep the peace- just being nice. i've gotten kicked out and called the devil or divisive or whatever by most churches I've been in. ultimately I just believe the gospel and am sad that it is not preached clearly.
I remember coming out that I struggled with
1) what translation to read because although i loved recovery version it triggered too many concepts that I couldn't really deal with. Landed on NASB which was my previous favorite. pretty good for memorization.
2) which "church" to go to - ugh. very little healthy places. christianity is in bad shape, it is true, and I live in a very religious city. in my experience people argue against the gospel, against assurance of salvation, and are very much caught up in works. fellowship is hard to come by. i've landed in the safest place that i can find right now where the people are the least controlling (and most likely because they're not that "serious".)
3) had bad dreams about the church every night for years. felt a siren call to go back and apologize. feared constantly that i might see them in the mall or at the store or wahtever. had panic attacks for fear I might see them. morbid curiousity led me to continaully wonder how they were doing although i knew i could never go back. facebook helped cure this actually - i became friends with some of them on facebook and that helped take some of the fear away (much of the fear was just the "unknown"). also, one of the ones that caused me the most anguish went on to be with the lord. that broke a lot of the fear.
4) felt like a failure as a christian. i went back to the people that I had originally tried to lead into the LC, who I originally led to the lord for thta matter, and many / most won't speak to me beacuse they've lost respect. "he was in a cult" "he was decieved though he thought he knew everything" " he's divorced and remarried". this has been washed away over time by the gospel. it was really about my own personal embarrassment and pride. we're all broken messed up sinners. thank you jesus for your blood.
5) struggle with a lot of backsliding because its difficult for me to find purpose in traditional christianity and can't figure out how God can use me. I still struggle with this, even though it doesn't bring me into condemnation as much as previously because I'm able to encourage myself with the gospel. i think i had a very high view of what it meant to be "in the spirit" which often leads me to feel backslidden when i'm just being "normal". however i've sinned in ways that previously were unthinkable to me when i first became a christian. some of that is from not having good fellowship and as i said feeling "directionless."
6) struggle in my marriage because we argued about church related stuff a lot. we LC people are rare birds with a wierd vocabulary that no one understands and we get upset about things no one cares about.
7) sorting the "baby" from the "bathwater". this was a big deal to me the first few years. How did I sort through what was good and bad? Honestly I can say that time deals with that one. My best advice to people who are exhausted from sorting it out is to focus on the gospel try not to fret about the other stuff. Over time you will find that the things that remain are the things the holy spirit is continually bearing witness to - the testimony of the Son of God. Everything else is not that important and will fall away. the only thing we can really hold in our mind without any effort of our own is the gospel. everything else requires continuous study to stay "fresh in it" or we forget it. that shows that it's not eternal.
I will say that God has led me to understand the gospel as never before and to rely on his unconditional love that is here for me regardless of my performance. he showed me that many of the things i used to try to enjoy by "exercising my spirit" or "being in the body" were actually enjoyed merely by focusing my mind and heart on the facts of the gospel - the simple facts that are realities for me now that Christ has died for my sins, reconciled me to God, risen and positioned me with Himself in God and at His right hand.
He also showed me doctrinally that I did not need to fear outer darkness ( a great relief! ). That view is very obscure and is not addressed very much by Christians. However in the last few years the prophetic movement outside the local church has picked up on it and that has allowed it to be addressed by some very well grounded dispensationalists, and it's pretty clear to me that the main problem with W Lee and really any legalistic system is that they just don't make a clear and consistent distinction between Israel and the Church. They put the Church where it does not belong - for example they attempt to subject it to the sermon on the mount, or to the parables in matthew 24 and 25. The bride is nowhere present in those parables, being a mystery really not revealed until after the resurrection of Christ although prophetically referenced by Him. The Bride is not invited to the wedding feast, she is the one that is doing the inviting! so no need to fear being cast out and not allowed into the wedding feast for wearing the wrong garment because thats not us in that parable. Also, the bride is not among the bridesmaids, so no need to fear being in outer darkness for not having enough oil. When you realize your place in Christ and then go back and read those parables the fear of outer darkness can finally be dealt with head on! we're in a position of grace that is so overwhelming and requires nothing from us but our simple faith in the lord jesus. That is our service to Him and what He treasures above all things. It has positioned us with Him in the heavenlies and made us partakers of His reward and His inheritance. We do suffer in this age because of the vanity we find here, but that suffering is worth it because in the next age when we are revealed as His cihldren we will be full of joy with Him!
This post is getting too long..so that's my introduction at this point that is not neat and tidy. (sorry ADD makes that difficult for me). so with all that being said if you're still reading, hello! :)
I left a small locality that wasn't quite Great Lake's Area and was definitely not a ministry church anymore. we were really isolated and on our own, and our internal dynamic was extremely unhealthy. leaving was explosive. in the course of about a year some events occurred and "I woke up" to realize that I was no longer able to think for myself. We were locked into a very small controlling group and every part of our life was scrutinized and had to meet their approval. My wife and I had been in it for 10 years and had been through so much. some things had happened that demonstrated that the group had complete control over my mind and will and i was willing to pretty much sacrifice everything precious on the altar of their approval. my wife looked at me and said "what ever happened to the man of God I used to know?" God orchestrated some events that caused us to be fairly swiftly ejected - most painful experience of my life. Within a year my wife left me as well. She was angry that I had brought her through the whole thing and she felt that so many years of her life were just wasted because of my "spiritual quest".
I was lost. Although I had come out of the LC I had not come out of its doctrines. I had read some things on this forum that helped, and the thread of gold, but I still had such a high regard for '"God's Economy", and held the view that christianity had neglected Christ, that the clergy system had nullified/replaced the function of the members, and that we should meet on the "ground."
Prior to coming to LC I had been in a large Charismatic church for many years and suffered a lot of accusations and persecution there because of my love for the word. I had led a lot of people to the lord when i first was saved and we all ended up going to the charismatic church. over time most of us lost track of each other and were absorbed in the system. when one of this group committed suicide we reconvened for a bible study which I led - just to be together and enjoy the word - it lasted for about a year and a half. I was accused of being a sheep stealer, trying to start a church, being a wolf - all kinds of scary negative things. in the bible study i had hit on ephesians 4 regarding the Gifts perfecting the saints for the work of ministry to build up the body, and it sounded to some there that I was speaking against the authority/ministry of that church and I was reported. I believed all the accusations and spent another year trying to stay there and be "submitted" to a leadership that wouldn't even talk to me. during that time all I could do was read books and I eventually stumbled on Witness Lee. His speaking about the body of Christ confirmed a lot of what I felt I had seen in the Bible, and when I read his book "God's New Testament Economy" I was hooked. I eventually read the Life STudy of Hebrews and was convinced I had to be a "river crosser" and go find the local church. When I attended the first meeting it was like heaven on earth. What I had been reading about for a year and half seemed to be true and real and it was wonderful. I knew that LC was considered to be a cult by many (I had done my "homework") but I felt that the real New Testament church would of course be perceived to be a cult, and I had already been ostracized for my love of the word. I felt I had found my new home, and the first year was pretty wonderful. I was one of the few caucasians and they were pretty dead at the time. When I came I was already able to articulate their views very strongly and speak in the meetings and "function", plus I tried to bring many of my friends into the church. This sort of revived the church for a time and I was the new favorite of the elder. That didn't last too long - the honeymoon period lasted about 6 months. Anyway although many of my friends came and stayed for awhile, they found the all absorbing requirements of the church life to be too high, and they didn't stay. I assumed it was because they loved the world too much to take the narrow way we had found. So I lost all contact with my friends and pretty much "disappeared" for the next 10 years, and those 10 years were pretty miserable. lots can be said about all that in other conversations i guess.
When I came out, I felt like a failure. I knew I could no longer endure the church life, not because I had seen so much that I had been deceived - but because I just couldn't fit in and couldn't bear the pressure anymore. I thoguht for sure I was defeated and would end up in outer darkness. I couldn't go back to christianity, that's for sure. So I ended up alone and the isolation destroyed what was left of my empty marriage.
Eventually I did remarry. my new wife - also was a charismatic who read "thread of gold" an had some understanding of what I'd been through in the LC. we found a small church of very zealous believers - mostly young people and started attending there. we were there for about 2 years, and the pastor was very imprsesed with my views concerning christ and the church. we had lots of discussions and i thought i was going to somehow import the LC template to this group or something. but this pastor was a covenant calvinist / reformed guy and I was frustrated that in his preaching he revealed that he did not distinguish between israel and the church, and put believers under the law. there was never anything of the new creation. ( as i was struggling with their doctrine i was also finally able to sort out many of the theological issues that plagued me about the LC.) but i also noticed a trend that this church's leadership was increasingly abusive and controlling. eventually i said too much and we were "asked" to leave. actually in a one on one meeting with the pastor i found myself having an absolute anxiety attack, and later i realized that i was experiencing PTSD beacuse of my dramatic exit from the LC, which as I said before was explosive.
The next two years I spent with no church, which was very hard on my wife and marriage. but I had to use that time to really "Detox" and discover what I believed. In that time God led me back to a very simple discovery of the Gospel and my security in Christ, and althoguh I had wandered from Him into various religoius systems, He was with me the whole time and would never stop bearing witness that I am His Child. He would lead me through to the end.
Now we are in a small baptist church, and honestly I don't agree with about 60-80% of what is said. but most churches in our area are covenant calvinist and that doctrinal system is just absolutely terrible. honestly I find myself "playing church" to keep the peace- just being nice. i've gotten kicked out and called the devil or divisive or whatever by most churches I've been in. ultimately I just believe the gospel and am sad that it is not preached clearly.
I remember coming out that I struggled with
1) what translation to read because although i loved recovery version it triggered too many concepts that I couldn't really deal with. Landed on NASB which was my previous favorite. pretty good for memorization.
2) which "church" to go to - ugh. very little healthy places. christianity is in bad shape, it is true, and I live in a very religious city. in my experience people argue against the gospel, against assurance of salvation, and are very much caught up in works. fellowship is hard to come by. i've landed in the safest place that i can find right now where the people are the least controlling (and most likely because they're not that "serious".)
3) had bad dreams about the church every night for years. felt a siren call to go back and apologize. feared constantly that i might see them in the mall or at the store or wahtever. had panic attacks for fear I might see them. morbid curiousity led me to continaully wonder how they were doing although i knew i could never go back. facebook helped cure this actually - i became friends with some of them on facebook and that helped take some of the fear away (much of the fear was just the "unknown"). also, one of the ones that caused me the most anguish went on to be with the lord. that broke a lot of the fear.
4) felt like a failure as a christian. i went back to the people that I had originally tried to lead into the LC, who I originally led to the lord for thta matter, and many / most won't speak to me beacuse they've lost respect. "he was in a cult" "he was decieved though he thought he knew everything" " he's divorced and remarried". this has been washed away over time by the gospel. it was really about my own personal embarrassment and pride. we're all broken messed up sinners. thank you jesus for your blood.
5) struggle with a lot of backsliding because its difficult for me to find purpose in traditional christianity and can't figure out how God can use me. I still struggle with this, even though it doesn't bring me into condemnation as much as previously because I'm able to encourage myself with the gospel. i think i had a very high view of what it meant to be "in the spirit" which often leads me to feel backslidden when i'm just being "normal". however i've sinned in ways that previously were unthinkable to me when i first became a christian. some of that is from not having good fellowship and as i said feeling "directionless."
6) struggle in my marriage because we argued about church related stuff a lot. we LC people are rare birds with a wierd vocabulary that no one understands and we get upset about things no one cares about.
7) sorting the "baby" from the "bathwater". this was a big deal to me the first few years. How did I sort through what was good and bad? Honestly I can say that time deals with that one. My best advice to people who are exhausted from sorting it out is to focus on the gospel try not to fret about the other stuff. Over time you will find that the things that remain are the things the holy spirit is continually bearing witness to - the testimony of the Son of God. Everything else is not that important and will fall away. the only thing we can really hold in our mind without any effort of our own is the gospel. everything else requires continuous study to stay "fresh in it" or we forget it. that shows that it's not eternal.
I will say that God has led me to understand the gospel as never before and to rely on his unconditional love that is here for me regardless of my performance. he showed me that many of the things i used to try to enjoy by "exercising my spirit" or "being in the body" were actually enjoyed merely by focusing my mind and heart on the facts of the gospel - the simple facts that are realities for me now that Christ has died for my sins, reconciled me to God, risen and positioned me with Himself in God and at His right hand.
He also showed me doctrinally that I did not need to fear outer darkness ( a great relief! ). That view is very obscure and is not addressed very much by Christians. However in the last few years the prophetic movement outside the local church has picked up on it and that has allowed it to be addressed by some very well grounded dispensationalists, and it's pretty clear to me that the main problem with W Lee and really any legalistic system is that they just don't make a clear and consistent distinction between Israel and the Church. They put the Church where it does not belong - for example they attempt to subject it to the sermon on the mount, or to the parables in matthew 24 and 25. The bride is nowhere present in those parables, being a mystery really not revealed until after the resurrection of Christ although prophetically referenced by Him. The Bride is not invited to the wedding feast, she is the one that is doing the inviting! so no need to fear being cast out and not allowed into the wedding feast for wearing the wrong garment because thats not us in that parable. Also, the bride is not among the bridesmaids, so no need to fear being in outer darkness for not having enough oil. When you realize your place in Christ and then go back and read those parables the fear of outer darkness can finally be dealt with head on! we're in a position of grace that is so overwhelming and requires nothing from us but our simple faith in the lord jesus. That is our service to Him and what He treasures above all things. It has positioned us with Him in the heavenlies and made us partakers of His reward and His inheritance. We do suffer in this age because of the vanity we find here, but that suffering is worth it because in the next age when we are revealed as His cihldren we will be full of joy with Him!
This post is getting too long..so that's my introduction at this point that is not neat and tidy. (sorry ADD makes that difficult for me). so with all that being said if you're still reading, hello! :)