How Much To Throw Out?

[OBW]

. . . they made oneness a dividing factor.Need we say more?

Back to the start of the thread (and probably repeating myself years later), throw it all out. I don't mean to not believe in Christ. I am not saying that there is nothing right/correct in LC teaching. But to the extent it is there, it is encapsulated within lies, false teachings, and deception. To the extent that you are in any way unsure that it is good teaching, you should seek confirmation from a source wholly unconnected with and unpromoted by the LC. I recommend no singular source. And I dismiss few (only the LC and others like them that declare theirs the only way, and their interpretations and teachings to be uniquely correct).

[Sons to Glory!]

Need we say more?

Back to the start of the thread (and probably repeating myself years later), throw it all out. I don't mean to not believe in Christ. I am not saying that there is nothing right/correct in LC teaching. But to the extent it is there, it is encapsulated within lies, false teachings, and deception. To the extent that you are in any way unsure that it is good teaching, you should seek confirmation from a source wholly unconnected with and unpromoted by the LC. I recommend no singular source. And I dismiss few (only the LC and others like them that declare theirs the only way, and their interpretations and teachings to be uniquely correct).After reading & hearing recently what R. Kangas had to say in 2007: "The body is the Father" (on another recent thread posting), I'm inclined to agree! I think that kind of nonsense is a full manifestation of not adhering to the word properly and going fully off into left field!

So we love the saints in the system, but hate the enslaving system they're in.

[OBW]

After reading & hearing recently what R. Kangas had to say in 2007: "The body is the Father" (on another recent thread posting), I'm inclined to agree!Yes, I saw that too. Felt a little like the AFLAC duck listening to Yogi Berra in the barbershop, speaking in such circles that the duck was dumbfounded and couldn't even get a weak "AFLAC!" out.

It was a healthy dose of just such nonsense that had many of us thinking we were the best thing since sliced bread just because we could make such unique statements about so many things. Reminds me that several years ago one of my nephews made some comment to the effect that saying it better made the experience better. I asked him point-blank if he really believed that and he was absolutley sure of it. We kind of agreed to do a real serious "debate" to flesh-out such an idea, but I never heard back from him even after setting up a private blog in which we could undertake the process without a bunch of pretentious onlookers muddying the discussion.

Oh to be young and so much smarter than all those old people whose minds have gone to mush (like they must have thought about mine).

I somewhat miss the real theological discussions that used to go on here. But even when they did, there were always too many people who jumped past real discussion to some conclusion and were ready to get out the tar and feathers for someone. One of the reasons you don't see so much of me anymore. Despite some family still there, I have so little connection to them since we left in '87 that most of the current "social" issues are not as relevant to me.

[HERn]

I think I should throw out the concept that WL’s motive for ministry was to help Christians understand the Bible. I came to this conclusion just today after reading the following comment a friend had written in the margin of a book he gave me.

“There are those who fervently study the Bible coming at it with a theory to prove. If we approach the Bible in this manner then everything we read is controlled by it.”

I believe WL’s motive for ministry was to propagate whatever “controlling vision” he divined. How many “controlling visions” did the man have?

This comment came from a 90 year old brother who spent his life living with and translating the Bible into a local native language in Bolivia. The book was “Studies in the Sermon on the Mount”, by D. Martin Lloyd-Jones.

[HERn]

Spouse and I just sent this email to our pastors.


"Dear Pastors:

xxxxxx and I would like to warn you about a cultish sect of Christianity that sponsors the club "xxx Christians on Campus", which is the recruitment arm of "The Lord's Recovery", often known as "The Local Churches", and sponsored by a book publishing company known as "Living Stream Ministry". All of these were started by Witness Lee, now deceased, and currently managed by a group of men who were his disciples known as the "being blended brothers". They are an insular group who have separated themselves from "Christless Christianity", but who seek to recruit young college freshmen into their movement known as "The Lord's Recovery". This group is dangerous because it has shipwrecked the faith of many by convincing them that God only sanctifies Christians in their group and if you leave the "Lord's Recover" you will have no way to go on with the Lord. They equate the writings of Witness Lee with that of scripture and have been very successful at deceiving many Christians into believing that their "Local Churches" are the only God-approved churches in a city.

If you have been contacted by the lead elder in the "Church in xxxx", xxxx, or the full-time campus ministers xxxx and xxxx xxx or the new campus workers xxxx and xxxx wanting to "fellowship" with you about their campus work with "Christians on Campus" xxxxx and I urge you to pray and seek the Lord for his discernment.

Norman Geisler along with 70 other evangelical scholars have written an open letter to the leaders of "The Lord's Recovery" documenting several doctrinal errors and urging them to repent. http://www.open-letter.org/

We have many years experience with this sect of Christianity, and xxxx xxxxx is also informed about this group and has tried to help both xxxx and xxxxx before they "left Christianity" and joined "The Lord's Recovery" by enrolling in Living Stream Ministry's two-year "Full-time Training Program" (their version of Bible College). This young couple has returned to xxxxx to work full-time at xxx and xxx to recruit freshmen into their sect.

We wanted to make sure this group was on your radar screen in case you have been contacted by their leaders or have college freshmen that seek you for counsel about "Christians on Campus". We can provide personal testimony, and direct you to additional online information about this group if you need to do further investigation.

Sincerely,

xxxxx

[Sons to Glory!]

Thanks for sharing that letter, HERn! I thought it quite balanced and based in sound fact and reasoning (not venturing into the caustic, accusatory realm). The more I go on in the freedom of the Lord, the more I see how controlling and legalistic that group was and evidently still is.

[HERn]

Thanks for sharing that letter, HERn! I thought it quite balanced and based in sound fact and reasoning (not venturing into the caustic, accusatory realm). The more I go on in the freedom of the Lord, the more I see how controlling and legalistic that group was and evidently still is.
Thank you! I’m probably not the most impartial person to critique this group. I have benefited by meeting with them in that I can pray freely in a group and learned not to be anxious giving impromptu testimonies. I also learned that all members of the body are essential and have something to benefit the body of Christ. I also learned that when coordinating in ministry and service with others that NOTHING should be held tightly in my hand and in my control. Like it says somewhere in the ministry I should always be working myself out of a job.

[Sons to Glory!]

Thank you! I’m probably not the most impartial person to critique this group. I have benefited by meeting with them in that I can pray freely in a group and learned not to be anxious giving impromptu testimonies. I also learned that all members of the body are essential and have something to benefit the body of Christ. I also learned that when coordinating in ministry and service with others that NOTHING should be held tightly in my hand and in my control. Like it says somewhere in the ministry I should always be working myself out of a job.Yes, and I value those particular things gained as well! As has been pointed out many times, the practices regarding everyone participating was a really good thing to have gained . . . too bad regarding all the other stuff that came along - but regardless, the long view is the Lord will have His way with the entire ekklesia irregardless [sic]!

[Unregistered]

This is a wise and healthy suggestion. Remember that the LC's are steeped in leaven. The Lord instructed the disciples to "beware of the leaven of the Pharisees." We surely must reiterate that word, "beware of the leaven of Lee and the Blendeds."

Please suggest where I could fellowship without any leaven? Certainly not with ambitious and divisive brothers.

[Unregistered]

Exclusive ministers like Witness Lee would never abide by these principles. If they did, they would lose their identity and reason for being. When J N Darby hijacked the Plymouth Brethren movement, his definition for Christian unity was explained in a circular entitled, "Separation from evil, God's principle for unity.

Hey ohio, may the Lord remember your judging of JN Darby at the time of your judgement.

[aron]

Please suggest where I could fellowship without any leaven? Certainly not with ambitious and divisive brothers.The problem with the LC is that they divide from others because of the corruption and degradation. Then, when you point out their corruption and degradation they effectively shrug, "Hey, nobody's perfect." They don't realize that was the exact same argument used against Martin Luther and John Wesley. "So what if we have faults. We [RCC, Anglicans] are the Body of Christ and the house of God."

When WN was in "dead religion" he wanted freedom, to follow his conscience and the truths as he saw them. But as soon as he got a following he denied others those same freedoms. Now, the buzz word in the LC is "restrictions". But WN and WL weren't restricted, were they? When WL wanted to create a for-profit motorhome company, and to put his son in charge, no problem. He called special meetings and told church members about the new investment opportunities. But if anyone has had issues with these kinds of conflicts of interest, then they've been called ambitious and divisive, etc etc.

Most people can see through all this, pretty quickly. Only naïve teenagers on college campus, who are barely more than children, and those whose perceptions have been dulled by incessant repetitive chanting will think everything's okay. The rest realize that something's very off but they got "wrecked and ruined" and now can't get out. Do you remember those words? "I got wrecked" for the Lord's recovery. Common sense, to follow one's conscience and inner voice, all got ship-wrecked.

[Sons to Glory!]

Please suggest where I could fellowship without any leaven? Certainly not with ambitious and divisive brothers.What area are you located in?

[UntoHim]

No need to reveal what location you are in unregistered, unless you want to.
-

[Ohio]

No need to reveal what location you are in unregistered, unless you want to.
-

That’s something I wouldn’t dream of doing.

[Zezima]

That’s something I wouldn’t dream of doing.

The mark of a healthy church, where former members fear revealing their location.

[HERn]

Please suggest where I could fellowship without any leaven? Certainly not with ambitious and divisive brothers.

I’m sure leaven can be found almost everywhere among the teachers of Christ’s sheep. To me the amazing thing about leaven is its asymmetry between size and effect. We are told that even a small amount of leaven can have a profound effect upon the whole lump (church). For example, the leavenous teaching that Witness Lee is something more than a member of the Body of Christ has created a whole system of error known as The Lord’s Recovery sponsored by Living Stream Ministry supported by the giving of the members in the Local Churches. Given the fallen nature of man the Lord’s Recovery provides a place for ambitious and divisive brothers to hide under the covering of being absolute for the ministry of Witness Lee. I think it’s safer to be absolute for Christ alone. I’m throwing out the teaching that Witness Lee was more than just a member of the body of Christ.

[Sons to Glory!]

No need to reveal what location you are in unregistered, unless you want to.
-Of course! I didn't necessarily mean specific location, but perhaps a more general area . . .

Also, there are groups that fellowship a lot online via Zoom, etc.

[Robert]

"We are told that even a small amount of leaven can have a profound effect upon the whole lump (church). "

To be correct, i do not thing lump is church. Church are people.
Lump is good food. This is Word of God. It corresponds with all verses. May be this is not big deal, but Jesus said about deliberately falsifying a Word for their own gain.
Our food, lump should be free of any additional element of the man. Pharisee's wrk was to teach people. So conclusion is clear.

[HERn]

I don't know. But it sure is spine chilling creepy.

I lost a son. I miss him with great hurt. But if I told you I was filled with his spirit, you'd have to have me committed.

I’m sorry you lost a son. I have three and could not imagine the grief of losing one. How did he pass?

[HERn]

After reading & hearing recently what R. Kangas had to say in 2007: "The body is the Father" (on another recent thread posting), I'm inclined to agree! I think that kind of nonsense is a full manifestation of not adhering to the word properly and going fully off into left field!

So we love the saints in the system, but hate the enslaving system they're in.

Sorry for the late reply, but does anyone have a link to the quote by Kangas that "the body is the Father"? If the quote is accurate I think its obviously heretical. I did a search on the phrase "the body is the father" and found an interesting quote by Edgar Cayce where he used that same phrase. In this quote Cayce is referring to the body being the human body (I believe). Cayce was a renowned clairvoyant and occultist, who I think was a false prophet.

To me it's interesting that the Chief Theology Officer of LSM would use those exact words.

Following is Cayce's quote:

"As we live and move and have our being in Him, so He is the supply…..whether it be material, mental or spiritual. For these are the representations of the Godhead within the awareness or consciousness of the individual, - the Body is the Father, the Mind is the Christ, or son, the Soul is the Holy Spirit through which all approach is made. For even as the Spirit moved, matter came into being. So as the Mind became the way, the truth, the light in materiality, - as we apply same in our experiences day by day we become aware of His Presence."

Source:

https://www.atlanticuniv.edu/media/5613/ecbiblestdyparallelingasfg1.pdf

Scroll to page 106.

Title of source:

Bible Study Paralleling Search For God
I Study Group Lesson on “In His Presence” and the
14th Chapter of John Verses 1 through 21

[Trapped]

Sorry for the late reply, but does anyone have a link to the quote by Kangas that "the body is the Father"? If the quote is accurate I think its obviously heretical.

Here is the thread on "the body is the Father".....see post #4 on that thread for the transcription.

https://localchurchdiscussions.com/vBulletin/showthread.php?t=6847

There used to be videos online so you could actually see/hear Ron saying it, but the links on the thread are no longer valid.

Trapped

[HERn]

I'm throwing out the belief that the writings of the "Oracle of God" know as Witness Lee are safe to read.

The following statement summarizes my view.

The Error, Deception, and Mis-aiming of the Teaching of Witness Lee, and the Local Church Movement Can be Explained by One Word …

... AND

Here are some examples.

“Christ AND the Church”
“Holy Scripture AND the Oracle of Witness Lee”
“Paul AND Witness Lee as the Master Builders”

Hear what John, the Apostle whom Jesus loved, and the last to die has to say. Verses are from the Amplified Bible, Classic Edition, 2 John chapter one.

“Anyone who runs on ahead of God and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ (who is not content with what He taught) does not have God; but he who continues to live in the doctrine (teaching) of Christ [does have God], he has both the Father and the Son.” Verse 9

“If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine [is disloyal to what Jesus Christ taught], do not receive him [do not accept him, do not welcome or admit him] into [your] house or bid him Godspeed or give him any encouragement. For he who wishes him success [who encourages him, wishing him Godspeed] is a partaker in his evil doings.” Verses 10-11

“I was greatly delighted to find some of your children walking (living) in [the] Truth, just as we have been commanded by the Father [Himself]. And now I beg you, lady (Cyria), not as if I were issuing a new charge (injunction or command), but [simply recalling to your mind] the one we have had from the beginning, that we love one another. And what this love consists in is this: that we live and walk in accordance with and guided by His commandments (His orders, ordinances, precepts, teaching). This is the commandment, as you have heard from the beginning, that you continue to walk in love [guided by it and following it]. For many imposters (seducers, deceivers, and false leaders) have gone out into the world, … Such a one is the imposter (the seducer, the deceiver, the false leader, the antagonist of Christ) and the antichrist.” Verses 4-7

“Look to yourselves (take care) that you may not lose (throw away or destroy) all that we and you have labored for, but that you may [persevere until you] win and receive back a perfect reward [in full].” Verse 8

“Anyone who runs ahead [of God] and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ [who is not content with what He taught] does not have God;” Verse 9

The three phrases below from Witness Lee’s ministry show how he has run ahead and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ.

“Christ AND the Church”
“Holy Scripture AND the Oracle of Witness Lee”
“Paul AND Witness Lee as the Master Builders”

Christ alone is to be exalted, admired, and lifted up. Although the Church is His body it is not Christ.

Jesus and His apostles allow for only one oracle, the words or logos of God. Neither scripture or church history allow for any oracle other than the Bible. Some teachers of the Bible may or not be helpful, but none should claim that they are the oracle of God.

Paul was the only Master Builder, and his foundation was Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 10). Others may build on Paul's foundation, but they are not Master Builders. The building work of others may or may not be good and survive the fire of Christ's judgment. Be careful not to accept the teachings of a false "Master Builder".

[PriestlyScribe]

Sorry for the late reply, but does anyone have a link to the quote by Kangas that "the body is the Father"? If the quote is accurate I think its obviously heretical.

The audio recording where Ron Kangas was speaking those words is this message, beginning at approx 58 minutes.
https://www.blendedbody.com/_cl/_audio/_Lima2007-32/Lima2007m1.mp3

https://www.blendedbody.com/4LCD/TheBodyIsTheFatherRK.jpg

I agree with you - those words are without question HERESY!

But anything goes with these Idol worshipers of Witness Lee who strive to keep Their Inherited Evil Empire from crumbling...

P.S.