Eternal Security

[cityonahill]

Hi,

I have really loved reading the threads about eternal security and what goes on between this world and eternity...I also don't believe that we just die and then "poof"...we're on a cloud playing a harp...but this thread is not about that...I notice many of you believe salvation is an eternally secure individual process that cannot be reversed. I disagree. I beleive it is possible for one to loose their salvation...why else would Jesus have mentioned names being "blotted out" of the book of life?

I come from a different background and wanted to share some thoughts...I noticed that many of you who come from Witness Lee's ministry believe in eternal security, that is, once saved always saved. I would really love to hear your thoughts. I want to share an article I found...I don't know the author:

WARNING: THIS IS REEEEAAAALLY LONG...


Many Christians today insist that once you are truly born again, you can never be lost, no matter what. There are three common terms used to describe this view. Probably the best known is "once saved always saved." Another term is "eternal security." But, the term best liked by Calvinists is "perseverance of the saints."
Few Evangelical and Fundamental Christians realize that OSAS is the minority view in Christianity today. It is held almost exclusively by Presbyterians, Baptists, and some other groups with roots in Calvanism. OSAS is rejected by the majority of Christians. But, what may come as a bigger shock is that OSAS is a new doctrine unheard of prior to John Calvin. For the first 1500 years of Christianity, Christians believed it was possible for true believers to fall away and be lost forever if they did not persevere in their faith unto the end. In the words of John Wesley: "whatever is true is not new; whatever is new is not true."

The earliest Christians taught that perseverance was not guarenteed, and that many true Christians would not finish the race, and would be lost. Intense persecution in the early Church brought this issue to the fore. Some were faithful even to martyrdom, and others forsook the Faith when faced with death or torture. The following quote from Irenaeus (early 2nd cent.) illustrates the early Christian view immediately following the time of the Apostles.

"And to as many as continue in their love towards God, does He grant communion with Him. But communion with God is life and light, and the enjoyment of all the benefits which He has in store. But on as many as, according to their own choice, depart from God. He inflicts that separation from Himself which they have chosen of their own accord. But separation from God is death, and separation from light is darkness; and separation from God consists in the loss of all the benefits which He has in store. Those, therefore, who cast away by apostasy these forementioned things, being in fact destitute of all good, do experience every kind of punishment. God, however, does not punish them immediately of Himself, but that punishment falls upon them because they are destitute of all that is good. Now, good things are eternal and without end with God, and therefore the loss of these is also eternal and never-ending. It is in this matter just as occurs in the case of a flood of light: those who have blinded themselves, or have been blinded by others, are for ever deprived of the enjoyment of light. It is not, [however], that the light has inflicted upon them the penalty of blindness, but it is that the blindness itself has brought calamity upon them: and therefore the Lord declared, “He that believeth in Me is not condemned,” that is, is not separated from God, for he is united to God through faith. On the other hand, He says, “He that believeth not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God;” that is, he separated himself from God of his own accord. “For this is the condemnation, that light is come into this world, and men have loved darkness rather than light. For every one who doeth evil hateth the light, and cometh not to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that he has wrought them in God.”" (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book V, XXVII, 2)

While predestination was taught beginning with St. Augustine in the 5th century, even Augustine believed that perseverance was not guarenteed to all believers. He taught that one could not know for sure whether he had the "gift of perseverance" until his death. Augustine taught that true Christians should pray continually that God would grant them the grace to persevere unto the end, and that some true Christians would NOT persevere and would be lost. Here are two excerpts from St. Augustine's treatise "On the Gift of Perseverance."

"I have now to consider the subject of perseverance with greater care; for in the former book also I said some things on this subject when I was discussing the beginning of faith. I assert, therefore, that the perseverance by which we persevere in Christ even to the end is the gift of God; and I call that the end by which is finished that life wherein alone there is peril of falling. Therefore it is uncertain whether any one has received this gift so long as he is still alive. For if he fall before he dies, he is, of course, said not to have persevered; and most truly is it said. How, then, should he be said to have received or to have had perseverance who has not persevered? For if any one have continence, and fall away from that virtue and become incontinent, - or, in like manner, if he have righteousness, if patience, if even faith, and fall away, he is rightly said to have had these virtues and to have them no longer; for he was continent, or he was righteous, or he was patient, or he was believing, as long as he was so; but when he ceased to be so, he no longer is what he was. But how should he who Has not persevered have ever been persevering, since it is only by persevering that any one shows himself persevering, - and this he has not done? But lest any one should object to this, and say, If from the time at which any one became a believer he has lived - for the sake of argument - ten years, and in the midst of them has fallen from the faith, has he not persevered for five years? I am not contending about words. If it be thought that this also should be called perseverance, as it were for so long as it lasts, assuredly he is not to be said to have had in any degree that perseverance of which we are now discoursing, by which one perseveres in Christ even to the end. And the believer of one year, or of a period as much shorter as may be conceived of, if he has lived faithfully until he died, has rather had this perseverance than the believer of many years’ standing, if a little time before his death he has fallen away from the steadfastness of his faith."

"But, on the other hand, “of his own will a man forsakes God, so as to be deservedly forsaken by God.” Who would deny this? But it is for that reason we ask not to be led into temptation, so that this may not happen. And if we are heard, certainly it does not happen, because God does not allow it to happen. For nothing comes to pass except what either He Himself does, or Himself allows to be done. Therefore He is powerful both to turn wills from evil to good, and to convert those that are inclined to fall, or to direct them into a way pleasing to Himself. For to Him it is not said in vain, “O God, Thou shalt turn again and quicken us;” it is not vainly said, “Give not my foot to be moved;” it is not vainly said, “Give me not over, O Lord, from my desire to the sinner;” finally, not to mention many passages, since probably more may occur to you, it is not vainly said, “Lead us not into temptation.” For whoever is not led into temptation, certainly is not led into the temptation of his own evil will; and he who is not led into the temptation of his own evil will, is absolutely led into no temptation. For “every one is tempted,” as it is written, “when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed;” “but God tempteth no man,” - that is to say, with a hurtful temptation. For temptation is moreover beneficial by which we are not deceived or overwhelmed, but proved, according to that which is said, “Prove me, O Lord, and try me.” Therefore, with that hurtful temptation which the apostle signifies when he says, “Lost by some means the tempter have tempted you, and our labor be in vain,” “God tempteth no man,” as I have said, - that is, He brings or leads no one into temptation. For to be tempted and not to be led into temptation is not evil, - nay, it is even good; for this it is to be proved. When, therefore, we say to God, “Lead us not into temptation,” what do we say but, “Permit us not to be led”? Whence some pray in this manner, and it is read in many codices, and the most blessed Cyprian thus uses it: “Do not suffer us to be led into temptation.” In the Greek gospel, however, I have never found it otherwise than, “Lead us not into temptation.” We live, therefore, more securely if we give up the whole to God, and do not entrust ourselves partly to Him and partly to ourselves, as that venerable martyr saw. For when he would expound the same clause of the prayer, he says among other things, “But when we ask that we may not come into temptation, we are reminded of our infirmity and weakness while we thus ask, lest any should insolently vaunt himself, - lest any should proudly and arrogantly assume anything to himself, - lest any should take to himself the glory either of confession or suffering as his own; since the Lord Himself, teaching humility, said, ‘Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation; the Spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.’ So that when a humble and submissive confession comes first and all is attributed to God, whatever is sought for suppliantly, with the fear of God, may be granted by His own loving-kindness.”" (Augustine, On the Gift of Perseverance, Ch. I, XII)

In essence, Augustine taught that true Christians ought to pray always for the grace to persevere, and that only when he finished his life, having been faithful unto death, could it be known that he would persevere. Perseverance was something entirely separate from true regeneration by the Spirit. Even truely born-again Christians might not persevere, and could be lost, in Augustine's theology. Consequently, not all born-again Christians will ultimately make up the "elect." That true Christians could fall away and be eternally lost was the universal view of Christian writers prior to Calvin


....there is more to come...see next post coming soon

[cityonahill]

Even Martin Luther, who is claimed by Calvinists as one of their own, acknowledged the possibility of a Christian falling away into unbelief. Here are a few quotes, beginning with Luther's comment on the statement of the Lord's prayer, "lead us not into temptation."

"We have now heard enough what toil and labor is required to retain all that for which we pray, and to persevere therein, which, however, is not achieved without infirmities and stumbling. Besides, although we have received forgiveness and a good conscience and are entirely acquitted, yet is our life of such a nature that one stands to-day and to-morrow falls. Therefore, even though we be godly now and stand before God with a good conscience, we must pray again that He would not suffer us to relapse and yield to trials and temptations. ... Then comes the devil, inciting and provoking in all directions, but especially agitating matters that concern the conscience and spiritual affairs, namely, to induce us to despise and disregard both the Word and works of God to tear us away from faith, hope, and love and bring us into misbelief, false security, and obduracy, or, on the other hand, to despair, denial of God, blasphemy, and innumerable other shocking things. These are indeed snares and nets, yea, real fiery darts which are shot most venomously into the heart, not by flesh and blood, but by the devil. Great and grievous, indeed, are these dangers and temptations which every Christian must bear, even though each one were alone by himself, so that every hour that we are in this vile life where we are attacked on all sides, chased and hunted down, we are moved to cry out and to pray that God would not suffer us to become weary and faint and to relapse into sin, shame, and unbelief. For otherwise it is impossible to overcome even the least temptation. This, then, is leading us not into temptation, to wit, when He gives us power and strength to resist, the temptation, however, not being taken away or removed. For while we live in the flesh and have the devil about us, no one can escape temptation and allurements; and it cannot be otherwise than that we must endure trials, yea, be engulfed in them; but we pray for this, that we may not fall and be drowned in them." (Martin Luther, Large Catechism XII, On the Lord's Prayer, 6th Petition).

"Through baptism these people threw out unbelief, had their unclean way of life washed away, and entered into a pure life of faith and love. Now they fall away into unbelief" (Martin Luther, Commentary on 2 Peter 2:22).

"Verse 4, "Ye are fallen from grace." That means you are no longer in the kingdom or condition of grace. When a person on board ship falls into the sea and is drowned it makes no difference from which end or side of the ship he falls into the water. Those who fall from grace perish no matter how they go about it. ... The words, "Ye are fallen from grace," must not be taken lightly. They are important. To fall from grace means to lose the atonement, the forgiveness of sins, the righteousness, liberty, and life which Jesus has merited for us by His death and resurrection. To lose the grace of God means to gain the wrath and judgment of God, death, the bondage of the devil, and everlasting condemnation." (Martin Luther, Commentary on Galatians, 5:4).

Calvinism
After the Reformation, John Calvin further developed Augustine's theology of predestination, and added "perseverance of the saints" as one of his five pillars of "Calvinism." In Calvinism, all those who are drawn of the Spirit will be saved, and will persevere unto the end. Man simply has no choice in the matter. In Calvinist thinking, God determines who will be saved and who will be lost. Ultimately, man's choice or "free will" is just an illusion. He really has no independant choice in the matter at all. If God elects certain people to be saved, and pre-determines their eternal destiny, the thought of someone "falling away" from the faith is preposterous. They simply have no choice in the matter.

Baptists & Eternal Security
Baptists and some non-denominational churches, who are not Calvinistic in general, hold to the fifth point of Calvinism, which they call "eternal security." In essence, they teach that man has a "free will" UNTIL he accepts Christ and becomes a Christian. From that point on he has no choice in the matter.

The Roman Catholic Church strongly opposes OSAS, both the Calvinistic form and the Baptist form. In fact, the RCC teaches that you are not fully "saved" until you get to heaven. They believe that salvation is a lifelong process, and that in this life, Christians can never really be sure they are saved. Integral in this line of thinking, is that one must perform good works and lead a holy life to help ensure their salvation. Also, certain sins are said to be serious enough to forfeit one's salvation.

Because of the apparent connection between "works" and maintaining one's salvation in RCC thinking, Baptists and Calvinists have assumed that anyone who believes a Christian can depart from God and be lost is teaching a works-based salvation message. However, this assumption is wrong as we shall see in the following articles.


The Biblical View
Let me say at the outset, that I believe the RCC doctrine of salvation by faith plus works is a false gospel that cannot save anyone. I am convinced the Scriptures teach salvation is by God's grace, not by our own merits. It is a free gift offered to all who believe. Salvation is gained by faith alone, and works have no part whatever in our being saved, or in maintaining our salvation.

Now, some might assume this means one can never depart from God. But this is not true. Many passages indicate true Christians can be lost. How? Through UNBELIEF. One must believe the gospel in order to be saved, and one must continue to believe the gospel to continue "in Christ." It is as simple as that. Works don't play any part in initial "believing," nor do they play a part in your continued "believing." It is initially by faith, and it continues to be by faith throughout the Christian life.

All of this is taught explicitly in Scripture. In the following series of articles, we will display the evidence for you to judge. OSAS may have some Scriptures that seem to support it. But, there are many Scriptures for which it simply cannot account. Likewise, the RCC might have a couple of verses from James that seem to support their teaching, but there are several Scriptures that flatly contradict their teaching regarding salvation. The truth can be found only by harmonising all of the Scriptures on this topic. The view presented in these articles fully preserves the idea of salvation by grace through faith, not by works. It also integrates the many warnings in Scripture against departing from God.

Salvation by grace through faith alone is at the heart of the Gospel message. While eternal life is a free gift of God's grace, it is applied to the individual by faith. Man cannot in any way save himself, but he can access the grace of God by simply choosing to accept the offer of salvation through the blood of Christ, when he is drawn by the Holy Spirit. It is through the exercise of the will that he responds to God by faith. Faith is simply believing what God has said, and resting in that promise. A person who is saved by God's grace through exercising faith continues to believe the Gospel throughout his Christian life. It takes no effort on our part to believe. We simply respond and surrender to the drawing of the Spirit. In fact, true faith is resting in God's promise, not clinging to it by works of our own merit. It is obvious then, that continuing to maintain one's faith throughout life requires no effort, but a continued resting in the finished work of Christ. Make no mistake. The warnings in God's Word are real. For example, in John 15:1-7, Jesus repeatedly warned the disciples to continue "in Christ." For those who do not heed the warnings, the result is to be "burned." Many other passages include similar warnings. The early Church held this view. "For when the soul that is united with Christ forsakes its faith, it is given over to perpetual death, viz., eternal punishment." (Hippolytus, On Daniel, vi). We come to God by faith, but it is through unbelief that one departs from God. By maintaining faith we persevere to the end. But, through unbelief we can depart from God and be eternally damned. Jesus taught that in the last days many would abandon the faith. Paul called this the "falling away." We need to be aware of the Scriptural teaching regarding our security in Christ, because the danger of apostasy is real.

Matt 24:9-13
9 "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations on account of My name.
10 "And at that time many will fall away and will deliver up one another and hate one another.
11 "And many false prophets will arise, and will mislead many.
12 "And because lawlessness is increased, most people's love (agape) will grow cold.
13 "But the one who endures to the end, he shall be saved.

[cityonahill]

Is apostasy possible? This is an important question. According to Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary, "Apostasy" is defined as "the determined willful rejection of Christ and His teachings by a Christian Believer [Heb. 10:26-29; John 15:22]. This is different from false belief, or error, which is the result of ignorance." The nature of apostasy requires that one be a believer first, then turn away from God. In one verse King David summed up the entire teaching of God's Word regarding the possibility of apostasy. Just before his death, as he passed the kingdom of Israel on to his son, Solomon, he warned:
1 Chron. 28:9
9 And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever. (KJV)

The "forsaking" David spoke of was a willful and complete turning away from God. No doubt, he was alluding to the former king, Saul, who forsook God, and God turned away from him. He was not speaking of committing some particular sin. David himself was guilty of adultery and murder. His sin caused him to despair. But, he confessed his sin and threw himself on the mercy of God.

Some may say that this verse does not apply to us because it is found in the Old Testament. But, the New Testament teaches exactly the same thing regarding apostasy. The Scriptures warn that in the last days apostasy will be rampant.

1 Tim 4:1
1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
(KJV)

II Th 2:1-3
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
(KJV)

The Apostle warns that apostasy will be so prevalent in the last generation, he calls it the "falling away." Paul did not originate this idea. Jesus mentioned it in His Olivet Discourse.
Matt 24:9-13
9 "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations on account of My name.
10 "And at that time many will fall away and will deliver up one another and hate one another.
11 "And many false prophets will arise, and will mislead many.
12 "And because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold.
13 "But the one who endures to the end, he shall be saved.
(NASB)

In the last days, when real persecution comes, many believers will grow cold and abandon the Faith. Only those who continue until the end will be saved.

The parable of the sower demonstrates clearly that not all who receive the Gospel will persevere in their faith until the end.

Mark 4:14-20
14 The sower soweth the word.
15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.
16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;
17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.
18 And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word,
19 And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.
20 And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.
(KJV)

Notice the same language is used of those who fell away when persecution came, and those who bore fruit. Both "recieved" the Word. Those who had stony ground became "offended." This is the same word Jesus used in Matthew 24:10 regarding those who will grow cold and betray one another when persecution comes.

Luke's account is even more clear regarding believers who do not endure when persecution comes.

Luke 8:13
13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away...
15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.
(KJV)

Notice the contrast between those in verses 13 and 15. Those who will fall away when persecution comes "received" the Gospel. It even says they "believed" for a time. But, the difference between them and the ones in verse 15 is endurance. The word "keep" is the Greek word "katecw" [katecho]. According to Strong's Greek dictionary this word means: "...to hold fast,...to retain,...to seize on." This word has the idea of grasping and continuing to hold on tightly, [see: Heb. 10:23]. Those who grasp and hold onto the Gospel through faith bring forth fruit with "patience." This is the Greek word "upomonh" [hupomone], which means: "endurance,...constancy,...patient continuance." It is evident that those who will eventually fall away already had a serious problem before they believed the Gospel. The soil of their heart was rocky. This type of soil makes growing crops difficult, but not impossible. Those with rocky soil need much more care and cultivation if they are to survive and bear fruit. Rocks can be removed, and tender care given to these struggling plants by caring gardeners. We cannot tell the condition of someone's heart. "...man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart" [1 Samuel 16:7]. But, we can guard against unbelief in our own lives and try to strengthen our brethren. Someone you know, who appears to be a strong Christian, could be on the verge of abandoning their faith in God. When real persecution comes, and it will, the condition of the root will be what matters, not the pretty leaves.

Jesus even warned His own disciples to "continue in me." His warning was not just idle words, or a hypothetical situation. Jesus told them the final outcome of those who were "in Christ," but chose not to continue "in Christ." The word "abide" in the following verses means: "to continue or remain in a given state or relation."

John 15:1-7
1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4 Abide [continue] in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide [continue] in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide [continue] in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth [continues] in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide [remains] not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If ye abide [continue] in me, and my words abide [continue] in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
(KJV)

The words "in me" demonstrate clearly that Jesus spoke of saved people. Since Jesus warned His own disciples to continue "in me," how much more should we be aware of the potential of any Christian to fall away?

Peter came dangerously close to abandoning Christ. On the very same night that Jesus spoke this warning to His disciples, Jesus turned to Peter and said:

Luke 22:31-32
31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.
(KJV)

Peter was in danger of his faith failing during Jesus' arrest and trial. He denied that he knew Jesus three times. This was his time of sifting by Satan. Yet, thanks to Jesus prayer for his strength, Peter did not totally abandon Christ. If Peter was in such danger, how much more can we be in dire danger given the right circumstances.

Rom 11:17-22
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
(KJV)

Paul was borrowing a parable from Jeremiah 11. In this parable God likened Israel to a good olive tree that He had planted. Because of their unbelief and rebellion, God said He would break off it's branches and burn them with fire. Paul used this illustration to show how unbelieving Jews, who rejected Jesus when He came, had been broken off from the people of God. Believing Gentiles were then grafted in their place, among the believing Jews, as the true people of God. However, Paul sternly warned the Roman Christians not to become to haughty or too secure in their new relationship with Christ and the people of faith. He warned that they too can be broken off if they succumb to unbelief. Notice that they "stand by faith." This means they are continuing in their relationship in Christ through continued faith. If they allow that faith to degrade into unbelief, Paul warns that God will not spare them either. If God didn't spare His chosen people when they fell into apostasy through unbelief, He will certainly not spare Gentiles who follow the same path.

Even Paul knew he was vulnerable to the lusts of the flesh, which can ultimately lead to unbelief.

1 Cor 9:27
27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
(KJV)

Paul is saying he must keep his flesh in subjection so it does not cause him to loose faith and abandon Christ. The Greek word for "castaway" is usually translated "reprobate" in the KJV. It is found in Romans 1:28, 2 Cor. 13:5,6,7, 2 Tim. 3:8, Titus 1:16, and Heb. 6:8. In the last passage it is translated "rejected." In every single case this word is used of the lost. If Paul was aware of the ever present peril of ultimately being lost through unbelief, we too need to be on guard.

[cityonahill]

There are several passages in the Bible that warn of the consequences if we depart from God. Some of these warnings come in the form of conditional assurances. They say that Christians will ultimately be partakers in our inheritance "IF" we continue or persevere in faith until the end.
Rom 11:20-22
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, IF thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
(KJV)

That little word "if" shows that the "goodness" that God extends toward believers is conditional upon their "continuing" in His goodness. If not, they will be cut off in the same manner as the natural seed of Abraham. Notice in verse 20 that our perseverance is tied to "faith." What was it that caused God to cut off the Jews who rejected Christ? Verse 20 says that it was because of unbelief. And, Paul makes the point that we stand by faith. So, in verse 22, "continuing in His goodness" is synonymous with persevering in faith, and not succumbing to unbelief.

1 Cor 15:1-2
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, IF ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
(KJV)

Here Paul says that the Corinthians "received" the gospel, and were "standing" by the gospel. Yet, their salvation is clearly linked to perseverance. There is that pesky little "if" again. What does it mean to "keep in memory" the gospel? The Gospel is all about coming to God by faith. It is clear that the ones Paul refers to were saved. Notice that he is not warning them of their need to be saved, but of their need to persevere. It is not that they need something more than they have. It is that they need to remain and continue in what they already have. Otherwise, their "believing" [faith] will have been in vain. The only way their believing can be in vain, after once having been saved, is if they are lost.

Col 1:21-23
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23 IF ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
(KJV)

We are reconciled to God through Christ's death so that we will be presented sinless. But, again, that little word "if" messes up the verse! There is a condition attached. In order for the above to be true, we must "continue in the faith," and not be "moved away from the hope of the gospel." Can you see a pattern developing here? The Gospel, and faith, are linked to much more than just an initial salvation experience, where we received the gift of the Holy Spirit. Faith in the sacrificial atonement is our means of "standing" or "continuing." And, this is a requirement if we ultimately expect to be presented before the Father with our sins forgiven, and covered by the blood of the Lamb.

Heb 3:12-14
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, IF we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
(KJV)

Notice that these verses are addressed to the "brethren." And, notice that he is warning about "departing from God." One must be with God in order to depart from God. This is exactly what apostasy is. Yet, notice that there is one way Christians can depart from God. UNBELIEF! This is the opposite of "faith." But, this passage reveals much more. It clearly tells us HOW this can happen to a believer. Verse 13 warns of a "hardening" that can occur through the deceitfulness of sin. Hardening is a process, it does not occur overnight. Unchecked sin causes hardening of the heart. A hard heart leads to UNBELIEF. And, unbelief leads to departing from God. Then comes the final conditional assurance. We will be made partakers with Christ IF we hold our initial confidence [or faith] until the end.

Sin can be very attractive. Satan dresses up sin and uses it as bait to seduce those who had once escaped its power. That's why Paul told us to put on the whole armor of God so we will not be caught in the "wiles of the Devil," [Eph. 6:11]. The word "wiles" means trickery. Satan entices Christians to fall into sin. If they become entangled in that sin and allow it to go on, over time they will build up a resistance to the convicting voice of the Spirit. This is the hardening of the heart that leads to unbelief, and departing from God. It is not the sin itself that causes someone to fall away, but the unbelief that results from the hardening process. That's why we find repeated warnings in Hebrews to maintain the faith we had at first. And, that requires treating sin as a possibly fatal disease.

Heb 2:1-3
1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.
2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
(KJV)





1 Pet 5:8-9
8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.
(KJV)

This warning is not to the unsaved. It was written by Peter to the elders of the churches. It is the job of the leaders of the Church to be watchmen for Christ's flock. But, alas, many are more interested in building their own kingdoms.

Jer 10:21
21 For the pastors are become brutish, and have not sought the LORD: therefore they shall not prosper, and all their flocks shall be scattered.
(KJV)

Ezek 34:2
2 Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto the shepherds; Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks?...
5 And they were scattered, because there is no shepherd: and they became meat to all the beasts of the field, when they were scattered.
(KJV)



James 5:19-20
19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

[cityonahill]

Heb 6:4-8
4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame.
7 For ground that drinks the rain which often falls upon it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.
(NASB)

This passage has been bent and twisted in every direction in order to avoid the obvious. But, I think it is crystal clear the writer went to great lengths to show he is speaking of a genuine born-again Christian. But, the important point is that once a believer "falls away" it is impossible to be restored through repentance. Notice, it does NOT say it is impossible to fall away, but to be restored again after falling away.

Despite the list of qualifications in verses 4 & 5, some still claim that these people were never really born-again. However, the writer used the words "renew" and "again." Both of these words mean something done a second time. It is saying that they cannot be restored to their former state. This makes no sense if the writer was speaking of an unbeliever. Who would want to be restored to a former state of unbelief? To be "renewed again to repentance" means to be restored again to the condition of "being enlightened, tasting again the heavenly gift, made partaker again of the Holy Spirit, tasting again the good Word, and the powers of the coming age." It is to be restored again to a condition before having "fallen away."

The other angle, is to claim that this statement is hypothetical, but impossible. Yet, the word "impossible" does NOT refer to "falling away," but to being restored again, after falling away. If he was speaking hypothetically, then what is the purpose of the illustration that follows?

7 For ground that drinks the rain which often falls upon it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

Is it only hypothetical [but impossible] that some soil does not produce fruit? Is it only hypothetical [but impossible] that such ends up being burned? The illustration indicates that he was speaking of a real danger to these Christians.

2 Tim 2:12-13
12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
(KJV)

Many of the early Christians were faced with the choice of denying Christ, or being persecuted or martyred. Soon Christians we know will be faced with the same dreadful choice. Either deny Christ by taking the Mark of the Beast, or suffer for Him. If we deny Him, He will deny us. Verse 13 tells us why. If a Christian no longer believes the gospel and denies Christ, AND, God is always faithful, we are faced with the ultimate paradox. God would be denying Himself if the Holy Spirit remained in an unbeliever. God has no choice but to deny the apostate. Notice here that the catalyst that drives this paradox is a Christian's abandonment of his faith. Again, this is the consistent teaching of the Word of God.

Heb 12:15-17
15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.
(KJV)

Here apostasy is compared to Esau's situation. Salvation is compared to a birthright. The point is that once "sold," it can never be recovered. It is impossible.

When the writer mentioned the "root of bitterness" he was recalling the covenant the children of Israel made with the Lord just before Moses' death. God delivered Israel out of Egypt and gave them His Law through Moses. The Israelites made a vow to the Lord to obey His Law, and keep His covenant.

Deut 29:10-20
10 Ye stand this day all of you before the LORD your God; your captains of your tribes, your elders, and your officers, with all the men of Israel,
11 Your little ones, your wives, and thy stranger that is in thy camp, from the hewer of thy wood unto the drawer of thy water:
12 That thou shouldest enter into covenant with the LORD thy God, and into his oath, which the LORD thy God maketh with thee this day:
13 That he may establish thee to day for a people unto himself, and that he may be unto thee a God, as he hath said unto thee, and as he hath sworn unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.
14 Neither with you only do I make this covenant and this oath;
15 But with him that standeth here with us this day before the LORD our God, and also with him that is not here with us this day:
16 (For ye know how we have dwelt in the land of Egypt; and how we came through the nations which ye passed by;
17 And ye have seen their abominations, and their idols, wood and stone, silver and gold, which were among them:)
18 Lest there should be among you man, or woman, or family, or tribe, whose heart turneth away this day from the LORD our God, to go and serve the gods of these nations; lest there should be among you A ROOT THAT BEARETH GALL AND WORMWOOD;
19 And it come to pass, when he heareth the words of this curse, that he bless himself in his heart, saying, I shall have peace, though I walk in the imagination of mine heart, to add drunkenness to thirst:
20 The LORD will not spare him, but then the anger of the LORD and his jealousy shall smoke against that man, and all the curses that are written in this book shall lie upon him, and the LORD shall blot out his name from under heaven.
(KJV)

There is no question in my mind that the writer of Hebrews is referring to this passage when he wrote about the "root of bitterness." And what is this "root of bitterness" in the above passage? It is the willful turning away from God. What is the consequence? Look at verse 20 above.

Some might object to this teaching as using fear tactics when we warn Christians that they may depart from God permanently if they continue in their sin for the long haul. Some people respond to the love of God, while others are motivated by fear. If it takes fear to turn a wandering brother or sister around, then so be it.

Jude 1:21-23
21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:
23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
(KJV)

In Hebrews 3 we saw the process which leads to apostasy. However, there is one passage that speaks of the final condition of someone who has completely departed from God through unbelief.

Heb 10:23
23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)...
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
(KJV)

The wilful sin mentioned in verse 26 is not just any sin. Rather, it is a particular sin; it is the act of unbelief when one completely departs from God. This is in contrast to verse 23, where we are commanded to "hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering." The writer described the apostate's complete and utter denial of Christ, forsaking the blood covenant, and intentionally blaspheming the Spirit. According to verse 26, there remains no chance of repentance once someone has blasphemed the Spirit that indwelt him. "There remaineth no more sacrifice for sin." In other words, Christ's blood no longer covers him.

Was the person mentioned above really saved? Verse 29 says that he was sanctified by the blood of the covenant. This is pretty strong language that can only describe a genuine Christian. Yet, his end will be with the unbelievers, enduring the fiery wrath of God.

It is clear from this passage that a Christian cannot "lose" his salvation. "Losing" implies something involuntary, or accidental. Departing from God is a deliberate act made when someone's heart has been so hardened by continued sin, he no longer believes the gospel

The idea that a saved person can forsake God and be lost is repulsive to many Christians. But, the thought that such a person is eternally damned without any possibility of repentance strikes fear into the heart of believers. And it should. Because, it was intended to do just that. But, properly understood, it should not cause Christians to worry that they might have at some point lived in sin and forsaken God without realizing it. One who has departed from God through unbelief will no longer have any desire to restore his fellowship with God. He is a reprobate. The longing Christians have to fellowship with God, and the guilt we feel when we sin, are the direct results of the Spirit's working in our lives. God is longsuffering. He knows we are weak and frequently fail Him. But, the blood of Jesus Christ continues to cleanse us from all sin. Our continued faith in the gospel is still counted for righteousness. An apostate, who has totally forsaken God, will have no desire to fellowship with God. He might have remorse, and he certainly will live in fear. But, he will know in his heart of hearts that he can never turn to God. Look at Judas. He committed suicide. Why? There was no hope for restoration.

If you have a loved one or friend that claims to be a Christian, yet is living in continual sin, don't give up hope. But, you need to warn them where this path can ultimately lead.

[cityonahill]

Some Christians deal with the passages concerning falling away by claiming they are hypothetical. "IF" a person could depart from God, he could not return. But, it makes no sense for God to constantly warn us against apostasy if it were not possible. These are not idle threats. The Word of God gives us examples of real people who departed from God through unbelief.
1 Tim 1:19-20
19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.
(KJV)

Paul warned Timothy to guard his faith. He stated clearly that some had abandoned their faith and shipwrecked. Then he named two acquaintances, Hymenaeus and Alexander, who became apostates by blaspheming the Holy Spirit. In Second Timothy, written soon after, we find Hymenaeus is up to mischief.

2 Tim 2:16-18
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
(KJV)

Apparently, Hymenaeus was not content to make shipwreck of his own faith. Now, we find him teaching false doctrine [eschatology] and thereby overthrowing the faith of others. It was common in the early Church for people to abandon the Apostle's doctrine in order to get their own following. Paul warned the Ephesian Elders of this very thing.

Acts 20:28-30
28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
(KJV)

Paul knew, both by revelation and experience that people like Hymenaeus would abandon Christ because of a lust for fame and power. Incidentally, did you notice what Hymenaeus was teaching? He was teaching false doctrine concerning eschatology. He taught that the resurrection was already past. False doctrine can lead people away from Christ and damage their faith. Others leave because they get their eyes off Christ and His Kingdom and on the sin of materialism.

2 Tim 4:10
10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; ...
(KJV)

Paul warned Timothy extensively about the lure of materialism. Apparently, many believers had quit and become entangled in the lust for money.

1 Tim 6:10
10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
(KJV)

This brings to mind the parable of the Sower. Remember, some fell among "thorns." Jesus said the "thorns" were the cares of this world and the love of money, which after the seed has sprouted, and begun to grow, they choke the Word, and the plant dies.

These examples of Christians who's faith failed because of a love of money or power demonstrate that the warnings in Scripture about falling away are real.

[cityonahill]

The doctrine of Eternal Security is sometimes supported using passages that speak of our being "sealed by the Spirit."
Eph 4:30
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
(KJV)

Some believe that once a person is "sealed" he can never be lost. But they fail to understand "sealing" in its historical context. Today, "sealing" might give the impression of something that is permanent. But, in Paul's day, "sealing" was a legal term. When a document was sealed, it meant it was authentic. The official would roll up the legal document, place a peice of wax to hold the loose end, then press the insignia of his seal into the wax. This was similar to a notary stamp. As long as the document remained closed, and the seal intact, it was considered legally valid. This was to insure that the document was not altered. The Catholic Encyclopedia describes later church bishops adopting the use of the seal from the Roman government.

"At first they were only used for securing the document from impertinent curiosity and the seal was commonly attached to the ties with which it was fastened. When the letter was opened by the addressee the seal was necessarily broken. Later the seal served as an authentication and was attached to the face of the document. The deed was thus only held to be valid so long as the seal remained intact. It soon came to follow from this point of view that not only real persons like kings and bishops, but also every kind of body corporate, cathedral chapters, municipalities, monasteries, etc., also required a common seal to validate the acts which were executed in their name."
Suppose a person received a promise of an inheritance in a legal will, properly witnessed and sealed in a scroll by a representitive of the Roman government. When the time came for the recipient to redeem his inheritance, he would present the legal document to the official with the seal unbroken. The first thing the official would do is inspect the seal to make sure it had not been broken. If the seal had been broken, the official would know the document had been tampered with, and it would be considered void. The inheritance would be denied.
This is the analogy that Paul was using when he spoke of being "sealed by the Spirit unto the day of redemption." The "day of redemption" is the day we present our covenant with God, sealed by the Holy Spirit, to redeem our inheritance in the Kingdom of God. We must protect that covenant, and not tamper with the seal of the Holy Spirit.

Eph 1:13-14
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
(NKJV)

The Holy Spirit has sealed us UNTIL the time of redemption comes, when we receive our inheritance. Was it possible for a Roman citizen to break the wax seal and tamper with the document? Sure it was. But this would certainly void the document. This is also true of one who breaks the seal of the Holy Spirit. That's why "blasphemy of the Holy Spirit" is the only sin that cannot be forgiven. In passages that speak of falling away, we see that this sin against the Holy Spirit is definately involved with apostasy.

Heb 6:4-6
4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame.
(NASB)

Heb 10:29 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
(KJV)

This is why Paul warned us not to tamper with our seal.

Eph 4:30
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
(KJV)

ETERNAL LIFE?

Much of the debate concerning "once saved always saved" (hereafter - OSAS) concerns the nature of "Eternal Life." Those who teach OSAS always seem to fall back on this term used in John's Gospel. Several passages say virtually the same thing. Therefore, examination of one is sufficient for understanding all of them. The highlighted words below are the verbs we will be discussing in detail.
John 3:16
16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
(NKJV)

The verbs in this statement are very critical to properly understanding what Jesus meant. We therefore need to examine the precise meanings implied by the various inflections.

"Believes"
The words, "whoever believes," are translated from "paV o pisteuwn," a present active participle with the definite article, plus the word "all" (paV), literally, "every one who is continually believing." It is a verb that functions as a noun, the subject of the clause. Because it is a participle rather than a true noun, it carries the characteristics of its verb base, including tense, and voice. In this case, the tense is "present," and the voice is "active."

Present tense: In Greek, the present tense emphasizes the kind of action, which is continuous. Daniel B. Wallace translates the present participle in John 3:16 as "everyone who continually believes." 1 Had Jesus meant to indicate a once - for - all kind of "believing," we would expect Him to use either the aorist or perfect participle. In this case, continuous belief is the emphasis. Hence, as Wallace indicates, "everyone who continually believes," best reflects the meaning.

Active Voice: The active voice indicates that the person described is performing the action of the verb. He is actively believing, not passive. Hence, we could include this in our English translation, "Everyone who himself continually believes."

"Should not perish"
This phrase is actually two words in Greek, a verb and a negative particle. The negative particle simply turns the verb into a negative. Hence the English translation, "not." The verb here is apolhtai - aorist middle subjunctive.

Aorist Tense: The aorist tense indicates the kind of action, not the time of action. The kind of action implied by the aorist tense is called "puncticular," referring primarily to a whole point or period in time when the action takes place. It should be seen in contrast to the continuous kind of action of the present tense. Therefore, to "perish" in this verse refers to a specific event, in this case it is potentially future.

Middle Voice: The middle voice indicates that the subject is both the performer and recipient of the action of the verb. "Cause himself to perish" is the general idea in this verse.

Subjunctive Mood: The subjunctive mood indicates probability or intention. This is in contrast to the indicative mood which indicates a definite result. The result is not necessarily certain. This is why the English reads, "should" rather than "shall." The words, "that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life" are meant to explain God's intention or reason why He "He gave His only begotten Son." Hence, God's intention is that every person who continues to believe "should not cause himself to perish."

Another good example of the Johannine use of the subjunctive mood in relation to God's will and intention can be found in the first few verses of John's Gospel. "There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe" (John 1:6-7). The underlined words are translated from the Greek verb, "pisteuswsin" — aorist active subjunctive. The context here clearly indicates that God's intent and purpose for sending John to announce the coming of Christ was so that "all through him might believe." Yet, not all did believe. In fact, only a minority believed. John used the subjunctive mood with regard to God's purpose because it is clear that the desired result is not necessarily guaranteed.

"Have" (everlasting life)
The verb, "have" is a present subjunctive verb.

Present Tense: The present tense in Greek indicates a continuous action or state. Here it implies a continuous possession of everlasting life. A. T. Robertson translates the identical phrase in the previous verse, "that he may keep on having everlasting life." 2

Subjunctive Mood: As with "should not perish," the subjunctive mood implies purpose or probability, but not necessarily a guaranteed result. In English, it is best translated "may have" rather than "will have," (as the indicative mood would require). It allows some level of uncertainty because only purpose or intention is in view, not the actual result.

The clause, "should not perish but have everlasting life," describes God's purpose for the subjects mentioned, all those one who continually believe." He did not state that His intention was that all who had a "born again" experience should reap this result. That is, a once - for - all kind of believing.

The most precise rendering in English would be as follows: "in order that each [one] who is himself continuing to believe in Him should not cause himself to perish, but may keep on having everlasting life." All of the following ideas are implied in this verse.

1. Continuing to have everlasting life is contingent on continuing to believe.
2. If one does perish, it is by his own actions or choosing.
3. The Believer is active not passive in his "believing."

If possession of everlasting life was a permanent condition resulting from having believed in the past (OSAS), we would expect the passage to use the perfect tense form of "believe." That is, "every one who has believed." The perfect tense indicates a completed action with continuing results. The use of the present participle speaks only of a persevering and continuous faith, not a once for all kind of faith. That is, we are in possession of eternal life while we are "believing." We can logically infer from this statement that God did not give His only begotten Son in order that those who believed once - for - all might not to perish.

What is "Everlasting Life?"
Those who believe OSAS argue that if believers currently possess eternal life, and if it is really "eternal," we could never loose it. Otherwise, it would not be eternal. This argument seems very powerful, and appears to be totally logical. However, it is based on a misconception of what eternal life really is. It also assumes that the adjective "eternal" refers to the duration of the believer's possession of "life." It ignores the possibility that the word "eternal" might refer to a quality or identity of this kind of "life."

Since "eternal life" is a "gift," many Christians think of it as something given once, and then retained in one's possession. But, the Bible teaches that "eternal life" is a continuous flowing stream of life which is impossible to exhaust.

John 4:10,13,14
10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.
13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
(KJV)

It is important to understand that the term "living water" was understood in the Jewish culture to refer to flowing water as opposed to standing water. [See Song of Sol. 4:15]. Notice that the "gift of God" that Jesus spoke of was "everlasting life," spoken of metaphorically as "living water." This gift of life was said to be flowing, a continuous stream. This is exactly what Paul spoke of in the following verse.

Rom 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
(KJV)

Paul was simply referring back to Jesus' explanation of the "gift of God" being a fountain of life flowing perpetually into the believer.

Jesus indicated that His giving "everlasting life" was a continual action in the present, not a past action at the moment of salvation.

John 10:27-28
27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
(NKJV)

We have a similar situation in this passage as in John 3:15. The verbs are in the present tense, indicating a continuous action. That is, "My sheep are hearing My voice, and I know them, and they are following Me. And I am giving to them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand." Jesus continually gives His "everlasting life" to His sheep who are hearing His voice and following Him. This passage does NOT imply that Jesus gave everlasting life to His sheep who heard His voice and followed Him. As in John 3:15, there is a continuous reciprocal action going on here. We have the same kind of activity described by John in His first Epistle, again using present tense verbs. "But if we are walking in the light as He is in the light, we continue having fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son is cleansing us from all sin." (1 John 1:7)

Jesus spoke of this flowing stream of "life" in the following passage.

John 7:38-39
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
(KJV)

Now, I want you to compare this passage with the one in John 4. Notice that in John 4, Jesus said the "living water" would be a spring flowing to everlasting life. But, in this passage, Jesus was equating "living water" to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Are you starting to get the picture yet? There is another passage we need to tie in here. This passage gives Jesus' definition of the words "eternal life."

John 17:3
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
(KJV)

Notice, Jesus did not say that you get eternal life by knowing Him. He said eternal life IS knowing Him. Eternal life is NOT something apart from God Himself. Having "eternal life" is having Christ in us, and us in Him. He is eternal, and He is life! The life that flows from Him cannot be exhausted.

John 1:4
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
(KJV)

Jesus is Life! He lives in us through His Spirit, and we live "in Him." Eternal life is not something apart from God Himself. He has infused Himself into us. His own life flows in and through us because we are "in Christ." Paul did not originate the idea of being "in Christ," Jesus did. Paul simply borrowed it.

John 15:1-7
1 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener.
2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.
3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.
4 Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5 "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you.
(NIV)

The words, "in me" or "in Christ" are not some mystical mumbo jumbo. They have specific reference to this parable. Whenever such terms are used in the New Testament it should conjure up in our thinking Jesus parable of the vine and branches, where He introduced the concept to His disciples. 3

The meaning of "remain" (or abide - KJV) is clearly to "continue" IN CHRIST. The term "in Christ," used throughout the New Testament, comes from Jesus' parable. This is what it means to be "in Christ." In the same way a branch is "in the vine," that is, it is a part of the vine, it is attached to the vine, and the life of the vine flows through the branch, perpetually sustaining it. This is what keeps the branch alive, and causes it to bear fruit. Jesus' point is clear. To be "in Christ" is to be attached to the vine, having the life of Christ flowing through us. Did the branch receive a one time gift of life, and can now live on its own perpetually? Was this branch Jesus described "once saved always saved?" NO! Jesus made it clear that this life is ONLY perpetual BECAUSE the branch chooses to REMAIN in the vine. Jesus' plea for His followers here is to REMAIN in Him. Because, if they do not, they will wither and die. And, the end result will be being thrown into the fire. We are both "in Christ" as the branch is in the vine, and He is in us, as the life of the vine flows to the branches (see Jn. 6:56)! We need this relationship, and we must maintain it to persevere to the end.

Decades after Jesus spoke the True Vine parable to His disciples, warning them to remain in Him, John delivered the same warning to Christians at the end of the first century.

I John 2:24-25
24 See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father.
25 And this is what he promised us— even eternal life.
(NIV)

It is apparent why John's Gospel constantly used the present tense for "believing" when speaking of possessing eternal life. "Believers" have eternal life because they are remaining in Christ through the Gospel and their continuous faith in Christ. His exhortation to Christians above includes both a command and a conditional statement. The command is that they must continue to hold to the doctrine of Christ. Obviously, such a command anticipates that it is possible to abandon the Gospel. The conditional statement indicates that remaining in the Son and the Father is conditional upon obeying the previous command.

Those who abandon their faith no longer "believe." Consequently, they no longer have eternal life. These are the branches who do not remain in the vine.

As we saw in John 7:38,39, this life is flowing through us who are "in Christ" by the presence and flow of the Spirit of Christ that dwells in us as believers. God is Life. God is Eternal. The word "eternal" does not describe the duration of our possession of "life." It describes the quality of God Himself, and the life that flows from Him. God lives perpetually in us by the Spirit of Christ who perpetually gives us life. It is this same Spirit that will make alive our mortal bodies at the resurrection.

Rom 8:10-11
10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
(NKJ)

[YP0534]

wow :eek:

not to criticize too much but I'm not thinking this forum is the right place for all of this...

[OBW]

cityonahill,

My first response is to agree with YP — mainly because I prefer to keep to subjects that have some reasonable tie to the LC. Of course, it could be argued that the LC has a particular belief on this subject — but so does virtually every other group. And many of them agree with the LC. It is hardly an LC issue.

But on the other hand, without desiring to get into the nitty-gritty as you have, I have noted of late that a closer inspection of both the Calvinist position(s) and those of the Arminians (sp?) reveals that most of us really do not understand the actual doctrines that were put forth now centuries past. Calvinism has been turned into what most of us think is a "point of salvation then always saved" doctrine and that is simply not true. And the Arminian belief system (which I grew up with) is not as simple as you're saved, then do a bad thing and immediately die and you go to Hell.

While the Calvinist may ultimately believe that there is something that cannot be lost, it is not simply gained by coming to a gospel feast and saying three words. It requires belief. That belief is more than mental assent. It requires some consideration. It requires some learning.

And the Arminian belief required more than minor sins to fall away (even though I never heard it that way). In the end, while the two are still different, they may not be as far apart as some imagine. And either way, they are not what most people believe.

[YP0534]

My first response is to agree with YP — mainly because I prefer to keep to subjects that have some reasonable tie to the LC. Of course, it could be argued that the LC has a particular belief on this subject — but so does virtually every other group. And many of them agree with the LC. It is hardly an LC issue.

I'm mostly noting the overall approach.

All of us here have our particular soapboxes and God love all of you for yours. :D

But I'm not sure pounding away on a complicated and lengthy doctrinal discourse is helpful or useful in this forum website, regardless of the topic's direct or indirect association with the Local Church.

I know we've had some republications on here that follow a similar publishing style to this but those missives indeed did have a direct association and I never felt moved to comment.

Feel free to ignore me altogether, cityonahill.

I know Ohio won't read all of it either. :rolleyes:

[cityonahill]

I guess to say I got "carried away" is an understatement.

This is mainly a response to the "heaven and hell" and "gospel of salvation" threads. It seems there is a gray area of defining those who are "saved" and those who are "overcomers." I believe everyone is either an "overcomer" or a "non-believer." I disagree with the different levels of salvation and posted this thread to show some evidence that "non-overcomers" are really just "un-believers" that are not granted eternal life.

*mods-feel free to delete if this is not appropriate. got carried away

[aron]

This is mainly a response to the "heaven and hell" and "gospel of salvation" threads. It seems there is a gray area of defining those who are "saved" and those who are "overcomers." I believe everyone is either an "overcomer" or a "non-believer." I disagree with the different levels of salvation and posted this thread to show some evidence that "non-overcomers" are really just "un-believers" that are not granted eternal life.

coh,

I like your argument and find it impressive and convincing. I rest my case on a few slender reeds, I admit. Nonetheless, they are there, and I can't just ignore them.

To wit: Moses fell in the wilderness, yet he is there in the transfiguration with Jesus. Evidently it wasn't the eternal lake of fire for him. If Moses gets a dispensation, what about the rest? Or is the whole "God was not pleased; they fell in the wilderness" warning in Corinthians and Hebrews irrelevant?

Secondly, I quoted the "many stripes, few stripes" point in Luke's gospel. If we are in eternal perdition, it seems "many" versus "few" would be irrelevant. if we are dealing with a finite time of punishment, then "many" and "few" become relevant.

I know this seems pretty thin next to the mass of verses you've assembled. But there they are.

Peace to you. Thanks for sharing.

[aron]

Secondly, I quoted the "many stripes, few stripes" point in Luke's gospel. If we are in eternal perdition, it seems "many" versus "few" would be irrelevant. if we are dealing with a finite time of punishment, then "many" and "few" become relevant.


Here are some quotes from Luke chapter 12.

47 "That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48 But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

58 As you are going with your adversary to the magistrate, try hard to be reconciled to him on the way, or he may drag you off to the judge, and the judge turn you over to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison. 59 I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny."

There does seem to at least be a little traction for the idea of a non-eternal punishment. Verses 47 and 48 of Luke 12 show "many" and "few" stripes, which doesn't seem "eternal" to me. Verse 59 doesn't say the bad servant will never get out of prison; it says he will not get out until he has paid the last penny.

And here is Luke 16:

1 And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods.

2 And he called him, and said unto him, How is it that I hear this of thee? give an account of thy stewardship; for thou mayest be no longer steward.

3 Then the steward said within himself, What shall I do? for my lord taketh away from me the stewardship: I cannot dig; to beg I am ashamed.

4 I am resolved what to do, that, when I am put out of the stewardship, they may receive me into their houses.

5 So he called every one of his lord's debtors unto him, and said unto the first, How much owest thou unto my lord?

6 And he said, An hundred measures of oil. And he said unto him, Take thy bill, and sit down quickly, and write fifty.

7 Then said he to another, And how much owest thou? And he said, An hundred measures of wheat. And he said unto him, Take thy bill, and write fourscore.

8 And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.


At the end of the parable, the debtors still owe, and the steward is still being put out, but they all have arguably improved their positions. However, if we still think that they are all going into eternal punishment, then relative position doesn't matter, does it?

I read Dante's Inferno once, years ago. It seemed there were separate levels of punishment for separate levels of crime against God and man. Perhaps this is the way to deal with the depictions of punishment as portrayed by Jesus in His teachings, here in Luke's gospel. I won't dismiss it out of hand, but probably it is my Protestant background that biases me from embracing it. So that leaves me wondering what to do with these cases except put some kind of time limit on the reproving hand of God.

[cityonahill]

just some thoughts on what you posted...firstly, I don't believe in an immediate eternal bliss or immediate eternal punishment after death. I agree with you somewhat regarding that...
Really, the main point of my huge post was this: I believe one can loose their salvation through unbelief.

Moses

I don't think Moses' fall was an eternal one of unbelief...clearly, his punishment was to not enter the land of promise...based on a sin.

But after that, he was clearly in good standing with God because he recieved the law, asked God to show him His glory!, and was buried by none other than God himself...

Besides, this is in the OT before Christ. The matter of individual salvation was much different and not completely fulfilled until Christ.

Luke's Gospel

Luke 12:

My bible footnotes point me in the direction of Romans 2:12-16 as a crossreference... read it here:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%202:12-16&version=49

There seems to be three punishments..."cut into pieces" "beaten with many" "beaten with a few."

This could get confusing really fast. Those "beaten with few" did not sin more than those "beaten with many." Rather, those beaten with many knew the will of the master more than the "few" and disregarded it...

To me, this seems to be talking about those who know the truth of the Gospel but disregard it. They will be judged more harshly than a non-believer who has never known the truth...but both have fallen short. Unlike the "overcomer" doctrine that says based on your sin...this shows it is based on what you know and how you believe. "To whom much is given much is required."


Once again, I agree with you guys regarding an instant eternal bliss or punishment. I don't think the bible shows us that is what happens either. Also, in 2 Timothy, Paul prays for a deceased person...Many early church practices included that before the Roman purgatory left a bitter taste in folks mouth.

What I'm really chipping away at here is the idea that through unbelief, one can loose their salvation and be cast off as an unbeliever even though they were once "saved." That is really what I'm trying to get at and discuss.

[SpeakersCorner]

Just happened to visit the forum again and found your latest post, Cityonahill. Hope you don't mind if I throw my thoughts into the fray.

The key word in “eternal security” is eternal. When we receive Jesus what we’re receiving is eternal life. “For whoever believes on Him … has eternal life.”

How can eternity be lost? It’s eternal. It’s forever. The very essence of eternal life is its unendingness.

If a doctor cures my illness and gives me ten more years, then I’ve got ten more years. But if he gives me eternal life, I’ve got forever. And if he tries to take it away later, then what was it he gave me in the first place? Certainly not eternal life.


SC

[cityonahill]

I agree that eternal life is "eternal life."

I guess I don't have time to go into it again,(read the post or some of them if you can)...

I would say that eternal life does not become "eternal' until we get beyond this earth and into eternity...Thus, one can loose their salvation due to unbelief while they are still here on this earth.

If not, then who exactly does Jesus "blot out of the book of life?" I've provided other numerous scriptures and early church father quotes to show that apostacy IS possible for believers today...For those who disagree, why would it be impossible?

[Ohio]

I know Ohio won't read all of it either.



LOL - YP - This is the only part of the thread which I read. :D

[aron]

I would say that eternal life does not become "eternal' until we get beyond this earth and into eternity...Thus, one can loose their salvation due to unbelief while they are still here on this earth.



Although this statement is beyond the bounds of what I would characterize as "conventional" christian thought, a lot of what is bandied about in christian conversation on such topics is poorly thought out and contradictory.

So I won't dismiss your statements out of hand. I'll take them under advisement as I look into the word. :)

And my sharing, likewise, all of it; I would present it as merely the impressions (transitory, shifting, and ephemeral) of one sojourner as he examines the scriptures.

Your point about "belief/unbelief" being unsteady sand, as opposed to "eternal life" being firm ground, is worth pondering, I think. Look at the one who repented and turned (Matt 21:31). He started out in unbelief, but eventually did the will of the father. Likewise, the one who started out favorably ("Sir, I will") fell by the side. So, for me, repentance is the great key. It was the theme for both John the B. and Jesus as they began thier ministries. It was the first word out of thier mouths as they began to speak to the wayward masses. And it likewise was the continual theme from John to the seven churches in Asia in Rev. 2 & 3.

Your uncertainty, and the point of Timotheist about the unfaithful servant being permanently put out, and relegated to the place of the "nations", have both given me pause. They don't seem compatible, but neither one I am willing to reject on its face.

Peace, and thanks for taking the time & effort to comment. aron

[cityonahill]

Hi aron,

So then it boils down to belief verses unbelief...

my guess is that many who see eternal life as a one off belief and confession quote John 3:16...

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes..."

The verbs in this statement are very critical to understanding what Jesus meant.

"Believes"
The words, "whoever believes," are translated from "paV o pisteuwn," a present active participle with the definite article, plus the word "all" (paV), literally, "every one who is continually believing."

Present tense: In Greek, the present tense emphasizes the kind of action, which is continuous. Daniel B. Wallace translates the present participle in John 3:16 as "everyone who continually believes." 1 Had Jesus meant to indicate a once - for - all kind of "believing," we would expect Him to use either the aorist or perfect participle. In this case, continuous belief is the emphasis.

That is what I believe as well. That belief is not a shallow mental ascent and that if one does not continually believe in Christ then apostacy is possible. These are those whom Christ will say "I never knew you."

[aron]

coh,

But what about the "nations" who are being healed by the leaves of the tree of life? The end of the Bible, Revelation 22 I believe, has nations listed outside the NJ who see the glory, bring thier glory to it, etc. This seemed "of a piece", i.e. consistent with the theme, which I had seen repeatedly in the OT where after blasting everyone on the face of the earth with threats and dire warnings the prophet then says "even Egypt will be saved, and know I am God." Sorry for not doing the homework & giving you a direct quote, but anyway I saw this theme in the OT which seemed matched by brother John at the end of Revelation.

My question therefore is that if the nations don't believe, but still get a reward for giving Christ a cup of cold water when He was thirsty, then how can the Judge be so hard on the ones who start out well, i.e. confessing His Name, then for some reason or another fall short of the mark?

The unbelievers who aid the elect get healed, but those who confess Jesus as Lord but don't measure up to par (i.e. they don't "continually believe") go into eternal torment? Seems like it might be safer simply to be nice to folks, and hand out cups of cold water to the thirsty, than try to believe in Jesus and be discipled.

"Many are called but few are chosen." If this pertains to the 1,000 years which John refers to at the end of his Revelation (i.e. banqueting with the King versus being [temporarily] shut out), it is one thing, but if it refers to eternal perdition to those disciples who don't "overcome" (remember the book of Revelation was written to the assemblies - it presupposed confession and discipleship) that is another order entirely. Given that only two individuals made it into the Good Land from Egypt in the OT exodus, we are contemplating the possibility that of the millions who have confessed Jesus as Lord, only a "few" (!?!) will escape eternal damnation.

I'm not saying you're wrong, it just seems a little strong to me.

[cityonahill]

coh,

But what about the "nations" who are being healed by the leaves of the tree of life? The end of the Bible, Revelation 22 I believe, has nations listed outside the NJ who see the glory, bring thier glory to it, etc.

Aron, Where do you find these nations listed outside the NJ?

Rev 21 mentions nations who walk in the light of the NJ (that "light" is God Himself) and bring their glory to it. Rev 22:2 says these nations are located "right down the middle of the great street of the city." Here we have a couple of issues...I disagree with you that the nations are outside of the NJ, and I also wonder where they get their "glory" from if they are unbelievers. Revelation makes it plain regarding the NJ that..."The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it. Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life." In Rev 20:15, all those who's names were not in the "book of Life" were thrown into the lake of fire already...If these nations were not found in the "book of life," then what are they still doing hanging out in the NJ? From what I can gather, these "nations" are not unbelieving nations...In the Jewish context of Revelation, "nations" are metioned 16 times...John is illustrating God's future plan to include the Gentiles in the NJ...Just as He will redeem the "tribes" of Israel, so he will redeem the "nations" of the world...that is, to those who believe...
..[/B]][[/COLOR]

My question therefore is that if the nations don't believe, but still get a reward for giving Christ a cup of cold water when He was thirsty, then how can the Judge be so hard on the ones who start out well, i.e. confessing His Name, then for some reason or another fall short of the mark?

Once more, where does it say the nations are "unbelieving nations." This seems like an assumption on your part. Just as the israelites were noted by "tribes," now all the gentiles and people of the world are noted as "nations." This does not mean they are "unbelievers." The Jewish context of Revelation implies these are gentile believers.

The unbelievers who aid the elect get healed, but those who confess Jesus as Lord but don't measure up to par (i.e. they don't "continually believe") go into eternal torment?

The bible does not say that "unbelievers" get healed, and yes, those who are unbelievers and have false belief systems are mentioned in Rev 22:15 Furthermore, confessing Christ is Lord comes with another step: "believing in your heart."[/
I'm not saying you're wrong, it just seems a little strong to me.

You brought up some valid points as also noted by timotheist...

regarding God's eternal Kingdom and the New Jerusalem, There is no evidence to say that some unbelievers will be present and "healed."

In Revelation 22, I see two people:believers and unbelievers

Exclusion for All Unbelievers (v 15)
Verse 15 says, "But outside are the dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever practices a lie."

First, there will be no sinners in the eternal kingdom. None. Verse 15 is describing the condition of people at that time, not their experience in this life. No believer with a glorified body could be described as being a dog, a sorcerer, a sexually immoral person, a murderer, an idolater, or a liar. While those things were true of giants of the faith like David (2 Samuel) and Solomon (1 Kings 11) in their experiences prior to death, they could never be true of saints with glorified bodies in the NJ.

Second, Rev 21:27 says that only those whose names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life will enter "it." The word it there most naturally refers to the kingdom since there will be no one anywhere on the New Earth whose name is not written in the Lamb's Book of Life. All such people will be in the lake of fire already before the Revelation 22 "nations" are mentioned. (cf. Rev 20:15).

Third, Rev 21:8 refers to many of the same sins as mentioned in Rev 22:15 (i.e., murderers, sexually immoral, idolaters, and unbelief) and it clearly assigns the fate of people so designated as "the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

Unbelievers will forever remain unjustified sinners who are forever excluded from God.

Inclusion for All Who Believe (v 17)
Verse 17 reads, "And the Spirit and the bride say, 'Come!' And let him who thirst come. And whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely."
Here once again is the free offer of eternal life. In the closing verses of the NT we find another free offer of the water of life. No strings are attached.



Revelation 22:15 in no way proves that all Christians live obedient, victorious lives. Neither does it prove that no Christian will be a murderer or a liar or an adulterer. It doesn't have anything to do with those issues at all. What it is saying is that the kingdom will contain no unbelievers. As John says, "When He is revealed, [then] we shall be like Him" (1 John 3:2). Amen! "Even so, come, Lord Jesus!" (Rev 22:20).[/COLOR]

[aron]

coh,
It always amazes me how different people can read the same document and get different impressions of it. My impression of Revelation was quite different. Having said that, I can see your point, and you may well be right, or closer to "right" than I am.

My particular "reading" of the nations in Revelation is colored by my impressions of the old testament. It is a kind of a filter, which provided pictures in my mind, which popped up when I read John's words in Revelation 22. Others might have different scriptural associations, and thus see different aspects, and have quite different interpretations.

Let me give two examples. The first is in 1 Kings chapter 10, where the Queen of Sheba hears of Solomon's glory and comes to him to test him, and see for herself. She is impressed, and leaves him gifts. I think someone said the amount of gold was like 4.5 tons or something. So I had that kind of image when I read the passage in Revelation. The kings of the earth walk in the light of the glory of the new jerusalem. The new earth and the new jerusalem are distinct, and separate, but they have a relationship, just as Hiram king of Tyre and the queen of Sheba did with Solomon and the Israelite kingdom. They were "positive nations", if you will. Distinct, different, yet somehow associated in a positive manner. Cyrus the Persian is another example. He is one of the "nations", distinct from God's chosen people, yet he helps them, and (possibly) can expect a reward in the resurrection.

Secondly is a quote from Ezekiel 47:12 "And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine."

The "fruit" and the "leaf" are distinct. One is for food. One is for healing. So my imagination had the elect eating the fruit of the tree of life (cf Genesis chapter 3; also Revelation 2:7 has "eat" of the tree of life as a promise to the overcoming elect in the assembly in Ephesus), and the blessed non-elect getting some kind of poultice to live under the healing power of the tree of life, just as they walk by its light (righteousness).

I don't know how far-fetched this seems to you. It is funny how we create these virtual worlds in our imagination, which seem quite plausible to us, yet which may seem absurd to others. That is one thing which I find profitable about sharing ideas with others. When they examine my thoughts critically, it helps me to be more critical of my own thinking.

And for that, and much more, peace to you and thanks. aron

[cityonahill]

coh,

It is funny how we create these virtual worlds in our imagination, which seem quite plausible to us, yet which may seem absurd to others. That is one thing which I find profitable about sharing ideas with others. When they examine my thoughts critically, it helps me to be more critical of my own thinking.

And for that, and much more, peace to you and thanks. aron

:iagree: It is funny what a cup of coffee and a piece of Jewish Apocolyptic literature will do to you!:)

Daniel, Ezekiel, and Revelation have been a point of difference for over two-thousand years now...I guess somebody is just not holding Christ as the head! lol

It would be crazy if we thought we had "arrived" in our understanding. That's why I like sharing with people like yourself on discussion boards.

[YP0534]

It is funny what a cup of coffee and a piece of Jewish Apocolyptic literature will do to you!

Daniel, Ezekiel, and Revelation have been a point of difference for over two-thousand years now...I guess somebody is just not holding Christ as the head! lol

It would be crazy if we thought we had "arrived" in our understanding. That's why I like sharing with people like yourself on discussion boards.

Paul's charge to us is not a manufactured uniformity or superimposed doctrinal purity.
Paul's burden is for us to stand and work together as far as we have seen while pressing on towards resurrection.
Phl 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
Phl 3:16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

[aron]

coh,

you say there are basically two classes. Believers and unbelievers. Perhaps that is so, but I struggle to put all the particular cases I am presented with in the pages of scriptures into these two boxes.

What about, for instance, the Israelites? I believe Rev. chapter 7 has 144,000 of them being sealed to the Lamb. They are virgins, and follow Him. Now, what about non-virgin Israelites? Lake of fire? Even if so, we still have 2 "positive" classes, the 144,000 and the Great Numberless Multitude, after the 144,000 (Rev. 7:9). God is making distinctions here, it seems, and not just between New Jerusalem and the lake of fire.

And what about Cyrus in the OT? What about the queen of Sheba? Melchisadek? Hiram king of Tyre? They are not Israelites, and not "believing", i.e. "christian" Gentiles. Lake of fire? Even nasty old Nebuchadnezzar starts praising and honoring and glorifying God in Daniel chapter 4, when his wits return.

Maybe there is just 2 classes, the wheat and the chaff, but who belongs in which class and how, is too complicated...I guess I've just talked myself out of an argument! Peace be with you, and to all who read this post. Thanks for bearing with my ruminations.

[cityonahill]

coh, Maybe there is just 2 classes, the wheat and the chaff, but who belongs in which class and how, is too complicated...I guess I've just talked myself out of an argument! Peace be with you, and to all who read this post. Thanks for bearing with my ruminations.

Aron,

You're right. I personally have no way of knowing the eternal security of those individuals mentioned in the OT! It's too complicated to guess...so I wont.

At the end of the day, there will be those who are granted eternal life, and those who are not...not very profound I know...

As for the 144,000?? That is also greatly debated... The way I see it is this (and I may be wrong of course but just some food for thought)

The 144,000 Jews / Israelites who are sealed in Revelation 7:4-8 are sealed for the specific purpose of being “evangelists” during the Tribulation period. The sealing is the work of the Holy Spirit bringing salvation and providing protection. One theory I have, and this is only a theory, is that these are possibly the fruits of the "two witnesses" ministering in Jerusalem for over three years during the tribulation. The 144,000 is not a limit to how many people will be saved(as jehova's witness teach), but rather is just a select group of believers called to proclaim God’s message during the end times. There will be perhaps millions of other converts during the Tribulation, most of them a result of the 144,000’s ministry. The number 144,000 represents 12,000 soulwinners from each of the 12 tribes of Israel.

keep in mind that Christ has not yet come back and the Holy Spirit will still be ministering on the earth to bring salvation during the tribulation...the "lake of fire" does not come into play until later...