View Full Version : Andrew Yu and Chris Wilde interviewed by Bible Answer Man Hank Hanegraaff
Just finished listing to both portions on the Bible Answer Man. What a snow job.
Take HH around the world. Wine and dine him. Let him speak in your meetings and even speak about quoting the Bible. Get two hours of HH helping you sell your package.
Behind the sceens, quarantine Titus for speaking differently and promoting the Bible. Use lawers, lawsuits and courts to drive out the believers you do not feel are one with the program.
Publicly talk about the seeking of oneness with all the believers.
After what I have passed through this was utterly revolting. I do not like smiley faces; but, if I had one pucking I would use it.
Sorry for my graphic frankness.
YP0534
09-11-2008, 12:47 PM
I haven't had a chance to listen to it yet, Norm, but I have to say, this is exactly what I'm expecting when I get to it. I don't know how it could be otherwise.
However, I'll go back to something I said on the other board when I was quite new among this group and several people jumped on my stuff fifty ways from Sunday when I suggested that the LC is more compromising with mainstream Christianity than it used to be.
They were all like, REALLY??? HOW??? I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THAT!!!
I pointed out then that seeking approval of the Christian publisher's group was some evidence of that. I didn't bother to mention anything about all the academics they'd gathered to say they were kosher. The lawsuit against the cult book this time was pretty much proof of where they stood, I thought, in reading the court pleadings. They are basically espousing the position of being just another denomination and, in truth, that is exactly what they have become. On that basis, I agree with them that they don't belong in a cult book.
But I think this radio broadcast is even stronger evidence of what I previously suggested.
If you make your own bed in Babylon, it would be awful hard to denounce living in Babylon with a straight face, I think...
Just finished listing to both portions on the Bible Answer Man. What a snow job.
I listened to about 20 minutes of the 2nd part. I liked Chris Wilde, excellent PR guy. He ought to be a Press Secretary for Obama's campaign.
What I heard kept referring back to original concepts of WN concerning oneness, and the early concepts of pray-reading. I agree with those concepts as Biblical practices, described in the scriptures, but not necessarily prescribed.
The problem is simple. Nothing I see in LSM remotely corresponds to what they told the Bible Answer Man. In the name of oneness, they are the most exclusive and divisive. In the name of pray-reading, what they really do is PSRP outlines rehashed by BB's of WL crystalization outlines which rehashed Life-Study Outlines of the Bible.
Listening to them speak is about the same as listening to politicians. Just switch your brain off, and it all feels so good.
UntoHim
09-11-2008, 07:46 PM
If I didn't hear this with my own ears I wouldn't believe it....
Here we go...
Word-for-word...directly from the recording...
Mr. Chris Wilde
“…the Lords recovery did not begin,
nor would we say ends, with any particular group
or any particular servant of God”
:eek:
Mr. Andrew Yu
“…when we say that we are the Lord’s recovery,
it's like when we say we are the church,
we are not saying that we are the only church, we are part of the church,
in the same way when we say we are the Lords recovery
we are not saying that we are the only thing that is being recovered..”
:eek2:
“Anything that is a positive contribution to the body of Christ
is part of the Lord’s recovery”
:rollingeyesfrown:
Hanegraaff:
“...And so you see yourself not as exclusively the church, you don’t see yourself as the only expression of Christianity, you see a broader body of Christ and you desire fellowship and interaction with that larger Body”
Mr. Andrew Yu:
That’s right!
:gag:
Indiana
09-12-2008, 12:29 AM
Dear brothers and sisters,
Of course, these brothers, Yu and Wilde, are toying with their brothers in Christ. (Wilde, naturally, has no idea what he is doing or saying, "recently" coming from remote locations in the NW - Spokane and Pullman - and landing in Anaheim and doing a job, yes, making money, as an employee for LSM).
(In an email to me in 2003, he said on behalf of Towle and Francis, who I was addressing, ongoing, that all the matters were closed to fellowship concerning our past and that I presented nothing new in my writings. - I don't believe he read ANY writings whatsoever, by me or anyone. He has no experience of the Anaheim saga and travesty and neither has he read writings concerning this.) Chris is a dear brother, but a pawn of LSM!
These two brothers, Yu and Wilde, have received much more revelation than their brother(s) who question them. But these two brothers, who fully believe that they are representatives of God's government on the earth, lie; they lie by not telling what they really think and how they really feel! They are politicians. And, they have their agenda. THEY KNOW HOW THEY FEEL ABOUT ORGANIZED CHRISTIANITY, and yes, the so-called Bible Answer Man, as well.
They are not being honest.
More Whoppers than Burger King?! I like this statement, but whether or not there are more Whoppers... it is for sure that what Whoppers they present are SIGNIFICANT to those concerned for the truth, and for the spiritual realm.
YP0534
09-12-2008, 04:05 AM
These statements are obviously at odds with what most of us here already know and can explain about the general and common history and the teachings of this group and its leaders.
But I submit that they really are in the nature of conciliation and compromise rather than falsehoods. I think they may actually aspire now to shake hands across the fences. This is now most clearly the degraded Laodicea. They should feel quite comfortable settling back in amongst all the religious flavors of the rainbow.
(PS - For good measure, I'll also note the veiled reference to "universal church" which implies that they have now rejected a concept of a neo-papacy and seek to embrace the common definition of Protestantism, which I think is likely, since they clearly have no new pope after a decade.)
Wilde, naturally, has no idea what he is doing or saying, "recently" coming from remote locations in the NW - Spokane and Pullman - and landing in Anaheim and doing a job, yes, making money, as an employee for LSM. He has no experience of the Anaheim saga and travesty and neither has he read writings concerning this.) Chris is a dear brother, but a pawn of LSM!
Indiana, this is what makes CW so good as a PR person! He doesn't know "all the truth" so he can effectivle face outsiders and "lie with a clear conscience." They do this all the time in politics.
Prayerful
09-12-2008, 07:03 AM
Since they are now so enlightened, does this mean that the Quarantine is over? Are the lawsuits dropped?
This may be more a way to sell books than a change of heart.
YP0534
09-12-2008, 11:05 AM
This may be more a way to sell books than a change of heart.
If you're talking about the brand of Christianity which is the CRI, it fits perfectly as both. If you listen to the podcast, be prepared to fast-forward through some seriously cheesy commercials advertising Hank's L.E.G.A.C.Y. Bible, the CR Journal and other such products for sale at their website...
kisstheson
09-12-2008, 06:49 PM
Hello, dear ones. Having listened to both the broadcasted portion and the "extra bonus material", I was so turned off by the whole thing. Many things really grieved me, but I guess what bothered me the most was the smug attitude displayed by brothers Chris and Andrew.
What they basically said was this: "Everyone needs to come to us and apologize, but we have no need to apologize to anybody. Hank needed to apologize, Gretchen needed to apologize, and everyone who ever spoke anything against us needs to apologize. But us? Poor, persecuted, slandered, long-suffering us?! No way! We have never uttered a word that was too strong or too insulting! We have never had a small heart toward other believers! If you would just take the time to learn our vocabulary you would see how right we are about everything! And by the way, all our lawsuits were never, ever, about money or anything like that! All we have ever spoken and all that we have ever done came out of only the purest of motives! What do we have to apologize for?"
Dear Lord, do have mercy on us all!
KTS, thanks for the concise reporting. It saves me the time listening to the whole thing. :)
Roger
09-13-2008, 05:10 PM
I'm wondering, on a scale of 1 to 10, 1 being a Christian who is not in the "proper" church life, and having little or no regard for "The Ministry," and 10 being, well...let's say a Ray Gravier, where does Hank handy graft place, and where does Titus Chu place?
From the Whistler witch trial, it would seem that Titus was nothing short of being in concert with the Devil. Somehow, Hank got ahead of him.
Wonder if ole Hank handy graft would be open to such questions? Nah, I don't think so. There is more to this charade than meets the eye. The Blendeds are using him, and for some reason he seems to need to use them.
Maybe I don't really know enough to comment, but I believe Chris is the official "spokesperson" because of his radio voice.
The saga continues.
Roger
Since they are now so enlightened, does this mean that the Quarantine is over? Are the lawsuits dropped?
This may be more a way to sell books than a change of heart.
My, Prayerful, you're starting to look like one of the aging Brethren.
UntoHim
09-14-2008, 06:27 PM
Mr. Chris Wilde
“…the Lords recovery did not begin,
nor would we say ends, with any particular group
or any particular servant of God”
So Mr. Wilde, since the Lord's recovery did not begin with "any particular group or any particular servant of God"...did the Lord's recovery just fall from a tree, or did it fall off the turnip truck, or did it come out of the woodwork? Really, inquiring minds want to know, because Witness Lee told me exactly when the Lord's recovery started, and who picked it up from there, and so on and so on...until the Lord's recovery kind of just ended with him. (how convenient).
Oh, oh, and speaking of the recovery ending...You say "nor would we say ends"...really? Did you take a trip out to Grace Terrace and somehow speak with Witness Lee about this..cause he kind of, sort of publicly declared that the "recovery" of all the important truths were recovered through him and the religion he founded. And he kind of, sort of said that nothing (much) would be recovered after him. So I was wondering if somehow, some way Witness Lee "took back" what he had been telling us for all those years. Surely you took your digital recorder with you that day so we can all hear for ourselves. Really, Mr. Wilde...a media savvy guy like you would surely of covered his bases and recorded this monumental turn-around in Witness Lee's view of the recovery...right?
UntoHim
09-14-2008, 06:53 PM
Mr. Andrew Yu
“…when we say that we are the Lord’s recovery,
it's like when we say we are the church,
we are not saying that we are the only church, we are part of the church,
in the same way when we say we are the Lords recovery
we are not saying that we are the only thing that is being recovered..”
"...We are not saying that we are the only thing that is being recovered"? Mr. Yu, Mr. Yu, Mr Yu!? I spent the better part of a quarter of a century listening to Witness Lee and many "co-workers" like you tell me that the Local Church was "the only thing that is being recovered". So now are you telling me that Lee and you were "just kidding"?
Roger
09-15-2008, 05:47 AM
Mr. Chris Wilde
“…the Lords recovery did not begin,
nor would we say ends, with any particular group
or any particular servant of God”
So Mr. Wilde, since the Lord's recovery did not begin with any particular group or any particular servant of God...did the Lord's recovery just fall from a tree, or did it fall off the turnip truck, or did it come out of the woodwork? Really, inquiring minds want to know, because Witness Lee told me exactly when the Lord's recovery started, and who picked it up from there, and so on and so on...until the Lord's recovery kind of just ended with him. (how convenient).
Oh, oh, and speaking of the recovery ending...You say "nor would we say ends"...really? Did you take a trip out to Grace Terrace and somehow speak with Witness Lee about this..cause he kind of, sort of publicly declared that the "recovery" of all the important truths were recovered through him and the religion he founded. And he kind of, sort of said that nothing (much) would be recovered after him. So I was wondering if somehow, some way Witness Lee "took back" what he had been telling us for all those years. Surely you took your digital recorder with you that day so we can all hear for ourselves. Really, Mr. Wilde...a media savvy guy like you would surely of covered his bases and recorded this monumental turn-around in Witness Lee's view of the recovery...right?
"WORDS...JUST WORDS"
Witness Lee told us that the recovery began with Martin Luther. Hellllooo. These Witness Lee bobble heads have become shameless in their willingness to lie, and twist words. They used to word dance. Now they just come out and lie.
"WORDS...JUST WORDS"
Roger
Can someone please post the link to this recording? I can't find it.
Nell
YP0534
09-15-2008, 07:22 AM
"WORDS...JUST WORDS"
Witness Lee told us that the recovery began with Martin Luther. Hellllooo. These Witness Lee bobble heads have become shameless in their willingness to lie, and twist words. They used to word dance. Now they just come out and lie.
"WORDS...JUST WORDS"
Roger
Roger, I hear what you're saying and you are right and that is exactly what they said, but I don't think that's really what they meant.
What they MEANT is that they do not claim to own "The Lord's Recovery" exclusively, that neither Witness Lee nor Watchman Nee were the founders of it, that the Local Church is not the only denomination subject to it, and that whatever it is exactly, it didn't die with Lee.
It is actually quite telling, however, that they did forget brother Luther at that point. I'd say that proves that they don't even know what "The Recovery" is any more.
I think they're still dancing, just not nearly as well...
UntoHim
09-15-2008, 07:57 AM
Can someone please post the link to this recording? I can't find it.
If you go here, the publicly broadcasted part is 9/8
http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/Bible_Answer_Man/archives.asp
I am not sure where the "bonus hour" part is. Maybe somebody can hunt through equip.org and find it.
Indiana
09-16-2008, 02:31 AM
So many thoughts about what I heard - including the thought to meet with him, the brother, HH. Easier for DR to do, who lives nearby him.
My point being, there are levels of understanding in the local churches to consider. HH has no idea, at this point - But if he is a person who declares, "the truth matters", then he needs a session 2 and 3.
Can someone direct me to the bonus time w/Yu & Wilde? I tried to find it but could not.
Can someone direct me to the bonus time w/Yu & Wilde? I tried to find it but could not.
I found the link in a post on another thread ... which since then has vanished.
YP0534
09-18-2008, 09:04 AM
The CRI advertising in the radio program section was really crass and disturbing.
As curious at the LC "leaders" are in their presentations of several points, that whole CRI phenomenon is even more so to my way of thinking.
One thing I thought was really strange was when they began to devolve into a discussion about the economy and government of China.
It sometimes almost sounded like I was listening to a meeting of businessmen talking about a newly expanded overseas market...
UntoHim
09-18-2008, 11:58 AM
The Webmaster of equip.org was kind enough to pass this link along:
Due to the large size of this file (+47mb), it is advisable to right-click on the link below and then choose "save link as"
http://bam.edgeboss.net/download/bam/bam_bonus/09-08-08bonus.mp3
For those who have need to obtain a compressed version (8.8mb) please PM Admin and I can get that to you.
kisstheson
09-19-2008, 04:22 PM
The CRI advertising in the radio program section was really crass and disturbing.
This was also my feeling, dear brother YP0534. First of all, a big percentage of the time is taken up by advertisements (11.5 minutes of advertisements out of a broadcast that was 54 total minutes in length). Secondly, even being as gracious and broad-minded as possible, the advertisements themselves are really hard to take. During the ads, I found myself asking over and over again: "Is this really what LSM wants to be identified with? Do they really want to be assoicated with this?"
Roger
01-01-2009, 05:45 AM
This was also my feeling, dear brother YP0534. First of all, a big percentage of the time is taken up by advertisements (11.5 minutes of advertisements out of a broadcast that was 54 total minutes in length). Secondly, even being as gracious and broad-minded as possible, the advertisements themselves are really hard to take. During the ads, I found myself asking over and over again: "Is this really what LSM wants to be identified with? Do they really want to be assoicated with this?"
Brother kisstheson,
I recently had links to these two programs sent to me. The person sending it thought that it would "clarify" some things. Well, it did. It made me clearer than ever that the Living Stream Church has become a denomination, which engages in public relations schemes, and reeks of as much hypocrisy as the biggest and oldest denominations.
You said: "Do they really want to be associated with this?" That really is remarkable, isn't it? Consider all that they are willing to wink at, and swallow, extending the sweet hand of "fellowship" to Hank Hanegraaff, for the purpose of trying to have a shinny, pristine appearance before the public. While at the same time their criteria for fellowship among the longtime members is so strict, and exclusive that a refusal to go along with it in every detail results in "quarantine."
What hypocrisy. It stinks to high heaven.
Roger
Roger
01-01-2009, 05:58 AM
But I submit that they really are in the nature of conciliation and compromise rather than falsehoods.
One might believe that if it weren't for the fact that at the same time they are making this run at compromise, they are excluding long time members and co-workers from the "fellowship" using strict, unbiblical guidelines.
So either they know they are being dishonest, or their consciences are seared to the point that they can't discern the dishonesty. Both possibilities are quite disturbing.
Roger
One might believe that if it weren't for the fact that at the same time they are making this run at compromise, they are excluding long time members and co-workers from the "fellowship" using strict, unbiblical guidelines.
So either they know they are being dishonest, or their consciences are seared to the point that they can't discern the dishonesty. Both possibilities are quite disturbing.
What appears to be a glaring contradiction of principle to you and I and perhaps most of the greater body of Christ, at the same time seems to be perfectly proper for those blended leaders who were trained directly by WL. The problem lies in their training. God made the conscience to operate according to its training or upbringing, always desiring to do "the right thing." The tragedy occurs when when "the right thing" does not coincide with "what is right" or what is scriptural for us as believers.
Here's a couple more examples of LC paradoxes. Being plainly taught by the Lord to "judge not," yet being training for decades how to judge ... uhhhh "critique" ... all things Christian. Being taught in plain words not to sue our brothers, yet being trained that lawsuits are "right" for the ministry.
This is why it is impossible to discuss LSM/LC problems using the scripture alone. The "faithful" have all been properly "inoculated." Of course, we never called in "indoctrination," but when "training" conflicts with plain scripture, what else should we call it?
As a "sidebar" here, perhaps the single most despicable and scathing wholesale condemnation upon all "outside" Christians can be found in Genesis Life Study #54, which likens the spiritual birth of all non-denominational, outside Christians, called "free groups," to the incestuous children of Lot. Read that message and you then can begin to understand the BB mindset. It's no wonder any faithful LC brother would lament the return to "denominations and free groups," after finally discovering the LSM way to be so unacceptable.
Terry
01-01-2009, 08:30 AM
While at the same time their criteria for fellowship among the longtime members is so strict, and exclusive that a refusal to go along with it in every detail results in "quarantine."
Hi Roger. What would the criteria for fellowship be? Could you be more specific so that the reader might know whether it's anything different than we already know? That is taking only one ministry and one publication.
Terry
YP0534
01-01-2009, 08:39 AM
So either they know they are being dishonest, or their consciences are seared to the point that they can't discern the dishonesty. Both possibilities are quite disturbing.
Roger
No doubt.
My impression is the latter.
UntoHim
01-01-2009, 08:56 AM
This is why it is impossible to discuss LSM/LC problems using the scripture alone. The "faithful" have all been properly "inoculated." Of course, we never called in "indoctrination," but when "training" conflicts with plain scripture, what else should we call it?
Very good observation. "Indoctrination"...."Brainwashing"... I know, I know, brainwashing is a pretty heavy duty word. How about "Compromised"? In general, many LC'ers have had their hearts and minds compromised - they have been compromised because they take the mere words of a mere man as equal to the Word of God. In some cases they even take the words of this mere man above, or in contradiction to, the Word of God.
This phenomenon of making the words of a man equal to the Word of God should have stood out very prominent to Hank Hanegraaff, Gretchen Passantino and anybody else doing "research" on the Local Church. Of course one must take into account the possibility that Yu, Wilde et al did a very good job of pulling the wool over everybody's eyes. Nevertheless, Hanegraaff and Passantino have stated that they attended several LC meetings, so unless these were "setup" meetings (a distinct possibility) they should have noticed the average member's tendency to quote Witness Lee more then the Bible. Then throw in a heavy dose of the rude and crude judging of other Christians (or critiquing as Ohio says:rollingeyes2:), and these folks should have seen right through the smoke and mirrors.
But as the saying goes...sometimes people only see what they want to see.
kisstheson
01-01-2009, 12:51 PM
Brother kisstheson,
I recently had links to these two programs sent to me. The person sending it thought that it would "clarify" some things. Well, it did. It made me clearer than ever that the Living Stream Church has become a denomination, which engages in public relations schemes, and reeks of as much hypocrisy as the biggest and oldest denominations.
You said: "Do they really want to be associated with this?" That really is remarkable, isn't it? Consider all that they are willing to wink at, and swallow, extending the sweet hand of "fellowship" to Hank Hanegraaff, for the purpose of trying to have a shinny, pristine appearance before the public. While at the same time their criteria for fellowship among the longtime members is so strict, and exclusive that a refusal to go along with it in every detail results in "quarantine."
What hypocrisy. It stinks to high heaven.
Roger
Amen, dear brother Roger. The original program and the "bonus material" really are painful to listen to. The LC has most definitely become a denomination and this "interview" with HH was a horrible public-relations scheme. When compared to LSM/DCP's recent quarantines and lawsuits in the GLA, this whole "chat" with HH does indeed stink to high heaven.
Really sad stuff. The supposed "openness" to brothers and sisters outside the LC, coupled with the simultaneous exclusivity and strictness being measured out to longtime members, is just too hyprocritical. I am reminded again of the quote about J.N. Darby's successor, William Kelly: "W.K. ever advocated the reception of all godly saints, except of course from other sections of Brethren!"
I am reminded again of the quote about J.N. Darby's successor, William Kelly: "W.K. ever advocated the reception of all godly saints, except of course from other sections of Brethren!"
William Kelly corresponds to today's Ron Kangas in so many ways. Kelly learned the art of true exclusivism from "the master." The exclusive Brethren (especially the sisters) would pay any price to gain just one new member regardless of former association, unless, of course, they ever broke bread with that "dreaded" George Muller of Bristol.
Lord Jesus save us from any and all elitist exclusivism!
kisstheson
01-01-2009, 02:26 PM
William Kelly corresponds to today's Ron Kangas in so many ways. Kelly learned the art of true exclusivism from "the master." The exclusive Brethren (especially the sisters) would pay any price to gain just one new member regardless of former association, unless, of course, they ever broke bread with that "dreaded" George Muller of Bristol.
Lord Jesus save us from any and all elitist exclusivism!
Dear brother Ohio,
It grieves me to no end that history is so clearly repeating itself. This is sad beyond words.
Amen, to your prayer, dear brother: "Lord Jesus save us from any and all elitiest exclusivism!"
kisstheson
01-02-2009, 07:39 AM
Dear ones,
One of the main reasons I was initally attacted to the writings of dear brother Watchmen Nee all those years ago was his repeated speaking regarding our need to learn the lessons of the cross. He had much to say about the ever-present danger of exercising "the arm of the flesh", epscially while engaged in activity for the Lord. This kind of speaking was so healthy and so pure. Of course, I have since found this same kind of speaking in the writings of many other ministers of Christ, but I will forever be grateful for the help I received from WN on this matter.
This is one of the main reasons that the "chat" brother AY and CW had with HH grieves me so much. Brothers AY and CW presented such a sanitized, cleaned-up, view of LSM and the LC to HH and the public which differs so radically from the views spoken during internal LSM conferences/trainings. This was just plain dishonest. How much better it would have been for brothers AY and CW to state exactly who they think they are and what they really think of the rest of Christianity. That at least would have been genuine and honest and would have shown some trust in the Lord to vindicate their speaking. Instead, "the arm of the flesh" was exercised to sway public opinion. Watchman Nee's name was brought up many times to elicit maximum sympathy from HH, but WN's message of the cross was trampled underfoot. This grieves me to no end.
Roger
01-02-2009, 11:40 AM
In the programs CW said he felt the Local Churches has much to learn from the rest of the Body. Andrew was not so absolute in his endorsement of that statement. At any rate, does the Living Stream Church reeeealllly feel that they can learn something from the rest of Christianity? Or, is this just another dishonest statement?
They say they are willing to fellowship with all other Christians, as long as they agree on essentials. Are they really willing to learn from other Christians and have open fellowship with them? Or, do they just want an opportunity to bring other Christians unto themselves? Are they just looking for another opportunity to prove to the rest of Christianity that they are "God's best," and that they "have all the riches?"
Based on their past history and proclamations, I would definitely say the latter. Can any of you imagine people from the Living Stream Church going to a church service in denominational, or even non-denominational, Christianity, and being truly open to learn something? Can they go among a people they formerly called “Poor, poor fallen Christianity,” and “Babylon,” and be open to learn something?
Can you imagine any of them standing in a crowd of charismatic Christians, swaying to the music and speaking in tongues, while they keep their “prayreading” and “calling on the Lord” tucked safely away in their pockets and purses?
Try to imagine a young graduate of the LSM seminary (FTT) sitting humbly, quietly beside a traditional seminary professor, being tutored in theology.
Does anybody really believe that LSM is open to learning anything from the rest of the Body of Christ? If so, I’ve got some nice beachfront property that I’d like to sell you, in the middle of West Texas.
Roger
Terry
01-02-2009, 09:15 PM
Can any of you imagine people from the Living Stream Church going to a church service in denominational, or even non-denominational, Christianity, and being truly open to learn something?
Roger, the self-proclaimed "recovery" is not what it once was; a local church for the general christian. The LSM church is not for everyone, but those that share the same vision, concepts, and ideals.
In this age a denomination can be a healthier alternative. If there's one lesson that can be learned from denominations, it's working to receive one another. I still meet with a local church, but it's a so-called denomination.
Terry
This is one of the main reasons that the "chat" brother AY and CW had with HH grieves me so much. Brothers AY and CW presented such a sanitized, cleaned-up, view of LSM and the LC to HH and the public which differs so radically from the views spoken during internal LSM conferences/trainings. This was just plain dishonest. How much better it would have been for brothers AY and CW to state exactly who they think they are and what they really think of the rest of Christianity. That at least would have been genuine and honest and would have shown some trust in the Lord to vindicate their speaking.
KissTheSon, this quote of yours speaks volumes to me concerning LSM and the so-called "ministry of the age." They have one message for "insiders," and another message for "outsiders." They treat "insiders" one way, and then treat "outsiders" altogether differently. This is more and more disturbing to me. This exposes their motives.
This tells me that LSM leaders really don't believe their own message. Deep down they know that WL conflicts with the Bible, hence they don't have a leg to stand on. The leaders are using "the ministry' for their own selfish gain. They are using "the ministry" to manipulate and control the LC's. If they really "believed" their message, then they would trust the Lord for the results, and trust the Lord to vindicate their message.
Lawsuits and quarantines prove how little LSM believes what they teach.
kisstheson
01-03-2009, 12:40 PM
KissTheSon, this quote of yours speaks volumes to me concerning LSM and the so-called "ministry of the age." They have one message for "insiders," and another message for "outsiders." They treat "insiders" one way, and then treat "outsiders" altogether differently. This is more and more disturbing to me. This exposes their motives.
This tells me that LSM leaders really don't believe their own message. Deep down they know that WL conflicts with the Bible, hence they don't have a leg to stand on. The leaders are using "the ministry' for their own selfish gain. They are using "the ministry" to manipulate and control the LC's. If they really "believed" their message, then they would trust the Lord for the results, and trust the Lord to vindicate their message.
Lawsuits and quarantines prove how little LSM believes what they teach.
It really is sad, dear brother Ohio. The fact that LSM is employing so many unscriptural means does indeed prove that they do not trust the purity of their teachings. If what they taught was pure and true and fully according to the Word of God, then they would have the full peace to trust God to defend and vindicate His own Word. Instead, they are caught in an ever-increasing downward spiral of fleshy human efforts void of God.
I really grieve for the Blended Brothers. They have become fully persuaded that the most fleshy and worldly means are justified in order carry out their program of continuing WL's ministry. There are so many areas in my life where I desperately need the Lord's shining and purging, so I dare not say too much; but, for the sake of all the confused and befuddled ones stuck in the LC system, I have to declare that LSM is leading the churches into further and further sin and darkness.
O Father God, have mercy on them and have mercy on us all! Yes dear Father, have mercy on us all!
UntoHim
01-06-2009, 07:26 AM
Mr. Chris Wilde
“…the Lords recovery did not begin,
nor would we say ends, with any particular group
or any particular servant of God”
:eek:
Mr. Andrew Yu
“…when we say that we are the Lord’s recovery,
it's like when we say we are the church,
we are not saying that we are the only church, we are part of the church,
in the same way when we say we are the Lords recovery
we are not saying that we are the only thing that is being recovered..”
:eek2:
“Anything that is a positive contribution to the body of Christ
is part of the Lord’s recovery”
:rollingeyesfrown:
----------------------------
Hanegraaff:
“...And so you see yourself not as exclusively the church,
you don’t see yourself as the only expression of Christianity, you see a broader body of Christ
and you desire fellowship and interaction with that larger Body”
Mr. Andrew Yu:
That’s right!
:gag:
..this quote of yours speaks volumes to me concerning LSM and the so-called "ministry of the age." They have one message for "insiders," and another message for "outsiders." They treat "insiders" one way, and then treat "outsiders" altogether differently. This is more and more disturbing to me. This exposes their motives.
The Hankster claims that he went to several meetings of the Local Church as part of his "research". It is more then obvious now that these were "setup" meetings...everybody knew he was coming...so they put all their "Christianitly is Christless!" and "denominations are the daughters of the great whore!" smack talk away in the broom closet while the Bible Answer Man was among them. So all Hanegraaff heard was a few "oh Lord, Amen, Hallalujahs" and maybe a "praise the Lord for His Recovery" or two. Of course he would have no idea that when Local Churchers say "His Recovery" they mean THEIR little sect, and their little sect alone. Hank probably thinks since he is making "a positive contribution to the Body of Christ" he is "part of the Recovery" too.
KissTheSon, this quote of yours speaks volumes to me concerning LSM and the so-called "ministry of the age." They have one message for "insiders," and another message for "outsiders." They treat "insiders" one way, and then treat "outsiders" altogether differently.
This double standard for treating believers, those in or who were once in and those outside, has become so institutionalize they do it unconsciously. A year or so ago the following happened here. We have a brother who meets with us but whose wife is all out loyal to the LSM. We have saints among us who were once in the LSM/Lc and many who hardly know what it was. A sister, one of the latter, was attempting to show some kindness to the LSM sister. She offered to give her beach home to the sister and her husband for a week. The LSM sister wanted no part of it and was very rude. Our sister asked her why she had such an attitude toward someone whom she had never met. The LSM sister let her know that it was because she had left the ministry. Our sister responded that she was never in the local church and knows very little about it. Suddenly all was well and the sweet spirit that is really the LSM sister began to come out and the two became good friends and the couple took the vacation to the coast.
Hope, Don Rutledge
Terry
01-06-2009, 06:38 PM
This double standard for treating believers, those in or who were once in and those outside, has become so institutionalize they do it unconsciously.
Hope, I would say the double standard as you say exists, but it is not the norm and when it does happen it's not done unconsciously.
When the double standard does happen it's because:
A Those that left the LSM fellowship are as modern day Benedict Arnold's
B There is a double standard against those that left because of a perception those that left will try to persuade others to leave.
I don't believe either is the case. No one is a traitor and no one is trying to persuade other's to leave.
Hope, what about those still meeting in LSM fellowship that still recieve and accept those that left?
That too wouldn't be considered the norm, but it does happen.
Terry
Terry,
I believe your two points are probably correct. I being a Benedict Arnold, and fairly well known, get the automatic institutional emphatic rejection. And I could be also accused of being a persuader to leave. (Of course, I prefer to be considered as a herald of truth but I suppose we cannot get what we would like.) Rather, I have been accused of “leading the rebellion in the Southeast.” Is it not strange, how just recognizing sin as sin and division as division and the usurping of the Headship of Christ can get you such a reputation. Until my involvement on the forums, I kept a very low profile. But any associated with me also gets you the automatic heave ho. So I suppose you could say it is all my fault. I have caused dear ones in the LSM/LC to give an institutional reaction to saints with whom I fellowship.
When the brothers in the GLA started reaching out four years ago, they invited the church in Raleigh to attend a conference in Cleveland. The invitation came to the church but was sans Don Rutledge. They specifically disinvited me. Dear brother John Meyer had the kindness to give me a call. He explained that they feared if I was there that the LSM/BBs would be able to accuse Titus of having “a coordination of dissension.” Whatever that means??? Keeping me at a safe distance did not seem to help as they were quarantined anyway.
Hope, Don Rutledge
When the brothers in the GLA started reaching out four years ago, they invited the church in Raleigh to attend a conference in Cleveland. The invitation came to the church but was sans Don Rutledge. They specifically disinvited me. Dear brother John Meyer had the kindness to give me a call. He explained that they feared if I was there that the LSM/BBs would be able to accuse Titus of having “a coordination of dissension.” Whatever that means??? Keeping me at a safe distance did not seem to help as they were quarantined anyway.
Hope, the real reason you were not invited to Ohio is because they knew you secretly were a Longhorns fan. You know ... we gots to keep our priorities straight.
Terry
01-07-2009, 05:56 PM
Rather, I have been accused of “leading the rebellion in the Southeast.” Is it not strange, how just recognizing sin as sin and division as division and the usurping of the Headship of Christ can get you such a reputation. Until my involvement on the forums, I kept a very low profile. But any associated with me also gets you the automatic heave ho. So I suppose you could say it is all my fault. I have caused dear ones in the LSM/LC to give an institutional reaction to saints with whom I fellowship.
Don,
How was it you were accused of "leading the rebellion in the Southeast"? Just because you did not want to go along with what was happening across the recovery?
My view of you for years had been a leading brother who wasn't named as one of the quarantined brothers, and since you could not go long with it, the Lord led you out of the recovery. As had been the case with other brothers. Personally, I'd rather have you speaking than to remain silent.
Terry
Don,
How was it you were accused of "leading the rebellion in the Southeast"? Just because you did not want to go along with what was happening across the recovery?
My view of you for years had been a leading brother who wasn't named as one of the quarantined brothers, and since you could not go long with it, the Lord led you out of the recovery. As had been the case with other brothers. Personally, I'd rather have you speaking than to remain silent.
Terry
Terry,
It beats me how I got that moniker. “Leader of the Rebellion in the Southeast.”
Well, let me see now. I invited John Ingalls to hold a conference in NC at the same time WL was holding a conference in Cleveland. When John could not come due to the turmoil in Anaheim, I gave most of the conference. This was seen as a competitive move against WL. My oh my!
In the conference, I spoke from the book of Ruth. WL had yet to give a training on this book so I must have been doing my own thing and bringing the Southeast into another flow. During the conference, I shared how Ruth was excited about what she had gleaned. I applied that to helping young believers get something from the Word for themselves and openly said it is best not to quote footnotes but rather the pure word and your own personal labor. At that time, there was a contagion of declaring "I have a footnote" or "I enjoyed a footnote" etc.
I was pulled aside twice and informed that I was violating the direction of the ministry by giving messages rather than just repeating a WL message or "allowing" the saints to recite a message and several were very unhappy with me for the statement about the footnotes.
In addition several from Atlanta and Florida asked me in personal fellowship if I was happy with what the office and the new way implementers were doing. I did not lie but told it like it was. Just the unvarnished truth.
There were some LSM would be missionaries who had come to the Southeast. Brother did they not like me!! I guess I did not show enough respect. (That is hard for an old country boy from the woods of Arkansas to do.) I did not cheerlead for them and I suppose that weakened their ability to ramrod the LSM program down the brothers and sisters throats.
I suppose this is part of where that label came from.
I know my dear brother and good friend Witness Lee had hopes that I would be recovered and he charged Benson to come and see me and to help me to return. This may have been part of the reason I was not put with Mallon, Ingalls and So. Bless their hearts; they took most of the heat. Yet I was with them in nearly all of their fellowships regarding the problems. In fact, I was very guilty of stirring up Bill and John.
I did talk to the brothers in Raleigh and told them I would no longer support the LSM office and what they were doing. In addition, I informed them that I had learned of immoral conduct on the part of Phillip Lee and would not be associated with anything he was working on.
I was invited to NY City and spent a week-end with the elders there. I was very open with them regarding my reservations and they too, especially James Chu, were very concerned about the direction coming from WL and the office.
There are other instances where I did not support the office or the new way. I guess if you put it all together the future BBs in their paranoia had to come up with a leader of the rebellion in the southeast.
Hope, Don Rutledge
It beats me how I got that moniker. “Leader of the Rebellion in the Southeast.” ... I guess if you put it all together the future BBs in their paranoia had to come up with a leader of the rebellion in the southeast.
I never heard this information about Brother Hope. We in Greater Ohio were informed by LSM publications that the real “Leader of the Rebellion in the Southeast” was Bill Mallon. Because of his subversive activities in cahoots with John Ingalls, he was rightly quarantined. Recently I was informed again of the "tactics" which Bill Mallon employed, such as returning to the "pure word" of God.
The official line on Hope which I was told was that he moved to NC and got "swallowed up by the world," thus leaving the door open for this "backslider" to repent and be restored.
I never heard this information about Brother Hope. We in Greater Ohio were informed by LSM publications that the real “Leader of the Rebellion in the Southeast” was Bill Mallon. Because of his subversive activities in cahoots with John Ingalls, he was rightly quarantined. Recently I was informed again of the "tactics" which Bill Mallon employed, such as returning to the "pure word" of God.
The official line on Hope which I was told was that he moved to NC and got "swallowed up by the world," thus leaving the door open for this "backslider" to repent and be restored.
Ohio,
This is quite a surprise to me. If I had only gone into the world, why no contact? Why was I excluded from the invitation to the conference for fear that the BBs would have grounds to accuse Titus of "a conspiracy of dissension?" I was recently told that Titus warned the co-workers in 1989 regarding WL's ugly outburst in Atlanta that it was directed at me and they all needed to be careful for I had been much liked by WL in the past.
Yes, dear old Brother Mallon was the whipping boy for the Southeast. In the winter of 1988 in Irving, Bill and I confronted WL in a private meeting witnessed by a few of the BBs. WL seemed to take it from me but was very upset with Bill Mallon.
After the spring of 1989, I was never contacted by any of my old friends in Texas or by any of the brothers in the LSM loyal churches in the Southeast. One brother from Tennessee who attended the conference in 1989 where I spoke told me to his great surprise he had gotten life. He had been told I was in rebellion. Two young co-workers from the west coast where in Irving in the early 90s and took hospitality with couple in Arlington. Somehow my name came up and they gave the couple the title of "Leader of the Rebellion in the Southeast." They rebuked these co-workers and showed them pictures of our children on their refrigerator.
Frank Corley's father informed me that he was told by brothers in Irving that I was "the leader of the Rebellion in the Southeast."
These are some of the sources where I picked this up.
By the way, how could someone in Ohio know if I had been "swallowed up by the world?" Who gave you that piece of gossip?
Hope, Don Rutledge
YP0534
01-08-2009, 12:23 AM
It beats me how I got that moniker. “Leader of the Rebellion in the Southeast.”
...
In fact, I was very guilty of stirring up Bill and John.
...
Huh.
Sounds pretty obvious to me, there, Hope...
I never heard this information about Brother Hope. We in Greater Ohio were informed by LSM publications that the real “Leader of the Rebellion in the Southeast” was Bill Mallon. Because of his subversive activities in cahoots with John Ingalls, he was rightly quarantined. Recently I was informed again of the "tactics" which Bill Mallon employed, such as returning to the "pure word" of God.
The official line on Hope which I was told was that he moved to NC and got "swallowed up by the world," thus leaving the door open for this "backslider" to repent and be restored.
Brother Hope,
This post of mine above was never intended to correct or dispute anything you have written, rather it was posted to provide you with the kinds of misinformation which floated around the LC's in the aftermath of the first quarantine. If I heard it, then others did too. I heard it from the local elder. In those days we were encouraged to believe the worst about anyone who left.
Things have changed over time. Perhaps the coveted "leadership" role passed from Bill Mallon to you. Perhaps some in SoCal initially had the impression that he was the "leader" because he was a SE regional worker before you moved there. Perhaps you inherited the title after the Texas folks took over LSM. Perhaps ... perhaps ...
I do find it a little troubling that Cleveland would invite your church and specifically disinvite you in the invitation. To cite ongoing regional tensions and suspicions is somewhat absurd. If they were worried about that, there's a thousand other things they would never have done. Cleveland always prided itself as those in the Recovery free from politicking, but ... then again ... so did Anaheim.
Dear Brother Ohio,
In my view that sometimes label (leader of rebellion) put on me was just the LSM way to discredit someone. I was also described by Phil Delp as having been brought into deep darkness by Bill Mallon, John Ingalls, John So and the brothers in Raleigh. Poor me.
You introduced me to a new label with the GLA label of going into the world. I did need to earn a living! I had three children who wanted to attend college. Times were tough and I did need to work a lot to make ends meet. But I never asked anyone for money while I was in the lc or after I left the LSM/LC. Working for a living? Maybe that means I was worldly?
I wonder where your elder got his information. Was it just his imagination? Did he add up 2 and 2 and get 17? If you picked up some irritation in my earlier post, you got it right. I get very riled by rumor mongering and gossip. We Christians need to be straightforward and let our yes be yes and our no be no. And yes, political moves are disgusting and pure flesh. What we try to hide will eventually be shouted from the housetop.
I have no problem with you but I just like to get to the bottom of some things and to create a record. The brothers who invented or spread rumors about others need to have some soul searching and effective repentance.
Your brother in Christ Jesus,
Hope, Don Rutledge
You introduced me to a new label with the GLA label of going into the world. I did need to earn a living! I had three children who wanted to attend college. Times were tough and I did need to work a lot to make ends meet. But I never asked anyone for money while I was in the lc or after I left the LSM/LC. Working for a living? Maybe that means I was worldly?
I wonder where your elder got his information. Was it just his imagination? Did he add up 2 and 2 and get 17? If you picked up some irritation in my earlier post, you got it right. I get very riled by rumor mongering and gossip. We Christians need to be straightforward and let our yes be yes and our no be no. And yes, political moves are disgusting and pure flesh. What we try to hide will eventually be shouted from the housetop.
Brother Hope, I understand your irritation, but the event was as simple as this: One day I inquired of our elder, "what ever happened to Hope?" he replied something like, "I heard he moved to NC and got swallowed up selling NSA." He was just repeating what he had heard, in Cleveland I presume. I guess this occurred some 10-15 years ago.
I understand it is now more "honorable" to be called "leader of the rebellion" in the SE. :)
Sounds like 2+2 equals 282. :eek:
Imagine what they have said about me. The GLA rumor mill can be just as nasty as the LSM machinery.
Brother Hope, I understand your irritation, but the event was as simple as this: One day I inquired of our elder, "what ever happened to Hope?" he replied something like, "I heard he moved to NC and got swallowed up selling NSA." He was just repeating what he had heard, in Cleveland I presume. I guess this occurred some 10-15 years ago.
I understand it is now more "honorable" to be called "leader of the rebellion" in the SE. :)
Sounds like 2+2 equals 282. :eek:
Imagine what they have said about me. The GLA rumor mill can be just as nasty as the LSM machinery.
There is nothing honorable about leading a rebellion in the SE. I would say that was a riduculous charge. Bill Mallon did a lot more than I to fellowship with others. He mainly fellowshiped with brothers in Georgia and Florida. What little sphere I had if any in the Southeast was pretty much confined to NC. After moving here my main thrust was to stay out of the flows from Anaheim. I actually desired to be out of all the stuff going on. I avoided LSM activities and never went to any of the Taipei stuff. I had more contact with Europe than with Georgia or Florida. The stories about my being some kind of leader of a rebellion came from Irving Texas.
Of course I was not only not in the LSM flow but rather in fellowship with the rebellious brothers. Now I learn that I was also "swallowed up by selling NSA."
Southern California brothers were very guilty of being tale bearers. Texas brothers were deep into slander. It appears that you GLA brethern also knew how to spread tales. All spoke about things they did not know about.
It would be good for the brothers in the GLA to consider 2 Cor 7:11, For observe this very thing, that you sorrowed in a godly manner: What diligence it produced in you, what clearing of yourselves, what indignation, what fear, what vehement desire, what zeal, what vindication! In all things you proved yourselves to be clear in this matter.NKJV
Are the brothers in the GLA really clear in the matter of taking what WL and the LSM did to many saints in 1988-89.
Hope, Don Rutledge
Terry
01-08-2009, 08:29 PM
Southern California brothers were very guilty of being tale bearers. Texas brothers were deep into slander. It appears that you GLA brethern also knew how to spread tales. All spoke about things they did not know about.
Are the brothers in the GLA really clear in the matter of taking what WL and the LSM did to many saints in 1988-89.
1. Is this what it means to remain faithful to the vision through Living Stream Ministry as the Lord's move on the earth?
2. Not just the great lakes area, but many responsible brothers nationwide and worldwide are not clear in this matter.
Terry
Southern California brothers were very guilty of being tale bearers. Texas brothers were deep into slander. It appears that you GLA brethern also knew how to spread tales. All spoke about things they did not know about.
It would be good for the brothers in the GLA to consider 2 Cor 7:11, For observe this very thing, that you sorrowed in a godly manner: What diligence it produced in you, what clearing of yourselves, what indignation, what fear, what vehement desire, what zeal, what vindication! In all things you proved yourselves to be clear in this matter. NKJV
Are the brothers in the GLA really clear in the matter of taking what WL and the LSM did to many saints in 1988-89.
Last year I heard a story that made me sick. Brothers spreading rumors about brothers supposedly spreading rumors. It's so sad how religious zeal and man-pleasing forces precious brothers to play the "blame game." Face-saving and rapport with headquarters will subtly coerce some to betray even their comrades. Let's be honest here. "The work" still oversees and rules the churches. Many brothers still feel responsible to "the work" concerning the churches they serve. When things go sour, how much easier it becomes to find local scapegoats than it is to take ownership.
Your question about whether "the GLA is really clear in the matter of taking what WL and the LSM did to many saints in 1988-89," is surprising. I have not seen nor heard anything which would indicate this. GLA authors place the blame squarely on the BB's. Unofficially, they might now receive these quarantined brothers and you into fellowship, but that is a far cry from publicly owning any and all irresponsible actions from that time period.
Here's two verses which seems to govern GLA actions, 2 Tim 3.14, "Knowing from whom you have learned them" and 1 Co 4.15, "You do not have many fathers." I have heard these verses mentioned by some who have switched their allegiances from Anaheim to Cleveland. The point is simple, these ones who are our "father," from whom we have learned, we take note. "Fathers," like our human fathers, don't have to be perfect, so we cover them, we learn from them, we honor them, we protect them. Right or wrong is not ours to judge. This is the same mindset which governs the BB's, and which gave so much license to WL.
Terry
01-09-2009, 12:06 PM
Your question about whether "the GLA is really clear in the matter of taking what WL and the LSM did to many saints in 1988-89," is surprising. I have not seen nor heard anything which would indicate this. GLA authors place the blame squarely on the BB's. Unofficially, they might now receive these quarantined brothers and you into fellowship, but that is a far cry from publicly owning any and all irresponsible actions from that time period.
Here's two verses which seems to govern GLA actions, 2 Tim 3.14, "Knowing from whom you have learned them" and 1 Co 4.15, "You do not have many fathers." I have heard these verses mentioned by some who have switched their allegiances from Anaheim to Cleveland. The point is simple, these ones who are our "father," from whom we have learned, we take note. "Fathers," like our human fathers, don't have to be perfect, so we cover them, we learn from them, we honor them, we protect them. Right or wrong is not ours to judge. This is the same mindset which governs the BB's, and which gave so much license to WL.
Ohio, we each have our responsiblity and accountablility. Whatever region brothers are from, they cannot play the blame game because LSM told untruths or white lies. If brothers are not clear on the matter, there is heavy searching to be done until these brothers are clear. If a brother is clear with what LSM relased concerning so-called "rebellious" or "ambitious" brothers, Amen.
The one who is our father is only one; Christ Jesus. It was Jesus who was crucified for me. It is Jesus whose name I was baptized in. I have had many instructors in Christ, but only one spiritual father. To cover brothers because there is a percieved spiritual obligation is absurd. I am thankful for instruction I have received, but by no way do I feel obligated to cover or protect.
Terry
11of101
08-23-2010, 03:27 PM
An email from CRI peddling luxury cruise trip
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Thankfully there are still man-eating grizzly bears in Alaska, (the Exxon-Valdez slick didn't wipe them out?). oh Lord, send one to feast on HH as he takes a dip in the ocean. amen.
11of101
11of101
08-24-2010, 02:12 AM
I listened to (yawn) the one hour HH-CW-AY broadcast of September 2008 last night, but I didn't catch the "whoppers from Burger King" part. I think I need to listen to the bonus hour for that. I can't find it on equip.org. Can someone please post a relevant up to date link to hear them whoppers for real.
Trekkies for Christ!!
11of101
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