What is a Glorious Church life? [Archive]

countmeworthy

07-16-2008, 07:12 AM

In a nutshell......it's what we make it to be. You can take lemons & make lemonade but if a person does not add sugar, the lemonade is going to taste sour.

In these last days, life is more challenging for the world. It's getting darker & scarier to many..and we, the saints in Christ Jesus may not be of the world but we're in it.

With gas prices are rising, I've been telling the Lord to keep my gas tank full so I don't have to spend money filling the gas tank. :D

Hey! The Lord tells us to ASK and we SHALL receive, right? :D Delight in Him and He promises to give us the desires of our heart! (Psalm 37:4) So why not ask & believe? :)

When people ask me how I am, I reply I AM BLESSED and HIGHLY FAVORED! :D

That always gets heads turning. :-)

I sometimes bless people by telling them "The Lord bless you and keep you. May He shine His lovely Face upon you, encamping His angels to watch over you and protect you in all your ways."

People like being blessed and we don't bless enough. The more we bless, the more we are blessed. The more we are blessed, the more we tell people what Great things God is doing in us, through us and for us.

Sometimes people see the JOY and Blessings of God permeating us & are automatically drawn to us.

That's MY experience anyway.

But I got here by practicing and practicing and proclaiming the Blessings & Favor of God over me......even in my darkest hours, I'd give Praise & Glory to the LORD.....just like Paul & Silas did while bound and chained up in the dungeon. Those guys had blood all over their bodies, knats, flies, stench of the worst kind, possibly rats running around & not to mention the excruciating pain they were enduring while they were chained up. But amidst all that pain & suffering they made a JOYFUL NOISE unto the LORD! And at the midnight hour, the angel of the LORD came to set the captives free!

Imagine that!

I've done the same thing. In the midst of my personal emotional & physical sufferings with tears in my eyes, I've given PRAISE & GLORY to the LORD.

Man........does it ever go against our mental way of thinking!

But you know.......the Lord has richly blessed me with inner JOY and more. I LOVE talking about How GREAT our GOD is! What is impossible with man is MORE than possible with God.

For me......this is what the Glorious church life is.

However, as I tell my friends....a professional athlete does not wake up one day and find him/herself a bonifide athlete with stellar accomplishments.

Listen to the testimonies of Professional Tennis & Basketball players who make the sport appear so effortless. They'll ALL tell you they have been practicing their sport since they were able to hold a ball in their hands.

If they don't practice & play every day, they get restless & if they let it go too long, they become rusty & when they get back into the swing of things, their practice & playing time is more labored.

This is a universal principle & it applies to our spiritual life as well.

I ain't just 'preaching/teaching' something I've read. All the day long I am Praising our GOD. I pray without ceasing pray. I pray for the Lord to gather His saints together and to be one with each other and with the Son just as the Son and the Father are One...for How Good and how Pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity. It is there that the Lord commands the Blessing even life forever more.

I pray for the LORD to tear down the walls of division..to crush the spirit of competition among His people. I pray for the unbelievers to enter the Kingdom of God QUICKLY as time is running out and the door of the Ark is about to be shut once again..for the LORD JESUS is QUICKLY coming for HIS BRIDE.

OH COME QUICKLY PRECIOUS JESUS.....for the Spirit and the BRIDE say "Come."

Notice what the WORD says...the Spirit and the BRIDE say 'Come'. It doesn't say......the Spirit and the CHURCH say "Come."

Something to think about...... :-)

So KEEP looking to JESUS the Author & Perfector of our Faith everybody! Keep running the race with endurance. We're almost there & He's at the Finish line cheering us on along with a great cloud of witnesses!!!!!!!

YAHOO!!!!!!!!!!!

aron

07-16-2008, 07:38 AM

I read a story the other day about an American Football player named Brett Favre. He had a great career and retired last year to much fanfare. But a couple of months go by and he gets restless, he wants to throw footballs to the cheer of the crowd. He's old (by football standards), gray and grizzled and lame. But he wants to throw footballs again. That's all he's been doing since he was knee-high to the proverbial grasshopper.

The team doesn't want him back. They had the parade, the speeches, and now they want someone younger, stronger, faster. But he still wants to play. So the Green Bay Packers are in the unenviable position of telling one of the greatest NFL players to take a hike. Doesn't look good. They want to win but he, unfortunately, wants to keep playing.

Well, I'm like Brett Favre; I was born to do one thing. "Hallelujah! Praise the Lord! Blessings and honor and thanks and praises and glory to Him who was, and is, and is coming! Amen, amen, amen!" That's my destiny, my calling. To praise God, to bless, and to be blessed.

The way to be counted worthy in that day, is to count HIM worthy today! And we do this with our lips, praising in the midst of a dark place. The darker it is, the louder we praise!

Remember the blind man by the side of the road? As Jesus and the crowds drew near, he kept making a fuss, and people kept saying "Shh!" "Stop it!" "Quiet!"... But he cried out all the louder....

Our situation may try to close our lips of praise, but that means God wants us to cry out all the louder...

Praise Him. Thanks for your sharing, cmw.

countmeworthy

07-16-2008, 08:56 AM

I read a story the other day about an American Football player named Brett Favre.......
The team doesn't want him back. ...
Well, I'm like Brett Favre; I was born to do one thing. "Hallelujah! Praise the Lord! Blessings and honor and thanks and praises and glory to Him who was, and is, and is coming! Amen, amen, amen!" That's my destiny, my calling. To praise God, to bless, and to be blessed.

The way to be counted worthy in that day, is to count HIM worthy today! And we do this with our lips, praising in the midst of a dark place. The darker it is, the louder we praise!

Our situation may try to close our lips of praise, but that means God wants us to cry out all the louder...

Praise Him. Thanks for your sharing, cmw.

And THANK YOU Aron for reading my post.

I too have read about Bret Favre. What a hard thing he must be going through. First-people couldn't get enough of Bret in his hey day. People were singing the praises of Bret Favre...wanting to touch his shirt, his helmet, his football..an autograph.

And now.....they're throwing him away.

I believe I read somewhere Bret & his wife are saved. I hope so for they will get the comfort and strength from our LORD as they draw near and dear to HIM.

You are absolutely correct Aron.....to be counted worthy is to count HIM WORTHY 24/7! WORTHY IS THE LAMB to be Honored..to be PRAISED..to be GLORIFIED!

The more we give our Precious LORD Praise, Honor and GLORY with a heart of gratitude and thanksgiving, He BLESSES us with JOY unspeakable full of GLORY! It is something we cannot explain with words.

And the more we Praise Him with a pure heart and confess Him with our mouth, our cup overfloweth. It runneth over. It spills over to people around us and they get a TASTE of HIS GOODNESS..HIS GLORY!!!

PRAISE YOU JEEEEEEEEESUS!!!! Praise YOU LORD JESUS!!!!!!!!!!!!

WE LOVE YOU LORD JESUS!!!!!! GLORY TO YOUR HOLY NAME!!! Forever and EVER.......!!!!! :)
He is soooooooo AWESOME!! Thank YOU LORD JESUS. THANK YOU for all that you are doing through us..for us and in us!!!

Awwwwwwwwwwe. I'm in heaven right now. :-))))))) :D

Guest1

07-26-2008, 10:33 PM

I was there at Elden Hall in Los Angeles... We were high school kids and we used to come about 10-15 of us from LaCrescenta.. North Glendale.. and we would sit unreligously on the front row .. lol... then after we turned 18 we 'moved in'.. Marshall Davis, Colleen Moy(Giddens),Charlie Hagens, Steve Allbright and many of our friends.. after 2 years started 'migrating' to Indianapolis,Indiana..Chicago, IL.....then to Anaheim....then La Crescenta (young peoples church).. then to the Valley 1 year

.. but as I wrote in my other post.. I never could experience Christ as my Life.. it was all religion to me.. I memorized alot of scripture .. prayreading 24/7 .. living and working with the 'saints'..meetings 24/7.. conferences and I thought I was exercising my spirit.. but after 10 years ..one night in the Valley at the Lord's table the Lord told me not to partake.. and I moved out of the 'sisters' house'..my best times were cleaning the meeting hall in Chicago at least there some were real and had real fellowship with our Lord Jesus Christ..

It took me a long time to get back to the Lord.. but He is Faithful..and he brings us to Himself and His Word.. He is our Rock..Bless His Holy Name..
His Word is living and operative and we can live by Christ.. Glory to God

djohnson(XLCmember)

07-31-2008, 01:01 PM

Cal

07-31-2008, 03:49 PM

I recall James saying in a meeting that the Lord led him to go to OKC. I clearly recall him saying that he realized that Oklahomans were "his kind of people," meaning they were culturally similar to his roots. He seemed quite excited about moving there.

Guest1

07-31-2008, 05:41 PM

Do you know why James Barber moved from the valley to OKC? I heard from a very reliable source the following scenario:

There was a good work esp among the youth in the valley and Barber was very happy to be there but he started commenting on Philip Lee implying he was "the fly in the ointment". Soon thereafter he was "asked" to move to OKC and essentially was "put out to pasture" i.e. even though after his arrival the church there grew due to his ministry he never really wanted to leave L.A.

i am sorry to break this to you.. .. i guess you didnt know that he died from cancer.. Virginia and the twins to okc.... James really loved the Lord.. he was so real.. i personally never heard one thing negative about another brother or sister come out of his mouth.. i never heard the above story...

God's Blessings

Guest1

07-31-2008, 05:43 PM

djohnson(XLCmember)

07-31-2008, 07:27 PM

Thankful Jane

07-31-2008, 09:25 PM

Here is a quote from Brent Barber about it:

"I only know the scandal in terms of how it affected my dad and it pretty much ruined his life as he was never the same after getting booted from hall 2 and sent out to pasture. He made the best of it and cultivated something good in OK, but his spirit and heart were broken after he lost all the young people in LA. I am not laying any of that at anyone's feet but the politics that Lee used to decimate his rivals and smear anyone who threatened his primacy. You only have to look at what happened ten years later with John Ingalls and Al Knoch to know that he never changed his MO of scorched earth."I can confirm this having heard about Lee's bad treatment of James directly from Virginia (about 10 years after he died). I can't remember the details now of the story about how James ended up in OKC, but I remember that it was not a result of his burden, but Lee's directive.

She said Lee was very abusive and that his treatment of James tore him up because James looked to him like a father figure. She and the boys hated to see him go to a training in Anaheim because of the state he would be in when he returned, after having been mishandled (she said "abused") by Lee while there. She said the family usually took the brunt of his upset. This information was shocking to me.

Thankful Jane

finallyprettyokay

07-31-2008, 09:43 PM

I can confirm this having heard about Lee's bad treatment of James directly from Virginia (about 10 years after he died). I can't remember the details now of the story about how James ended up in OKC, but I remember that it was not a result of his burden, but Lee's directive.

She said Lee was very abusive and that his treatment of James tore him up because James looked to him like a father figure. She and the boys hated to see him go to a training in Anaheim because of the state he would be in when he returned, after having been mishandled (she said "abused") by Lee while there. She said the family usually took the brunt of his upset. This information was shocking to me.

Thankful Jane

Heartbreaking.

I have seen more loyalty from stone cold heathens.

Sad, sad, sad.

FPO

djohnson(XLCmember)

07-31-2008, 09:47 PM

Perhaps James as a matter of discretion did not offer this information publicly but of course his family would know. Seems like he put on a happy face but inwardly was eaten up.

Guest1

07-31-2008, 11:59 PM

Perhaps James as a matter of discretion did not offer this information publicly but of course his family would know. Seems like he put on a happy face but inwardly was eaten up.

oh no .. i dont doubt the above posts.. at all... i was just relating my own personal experience.. i was almost out when all this happened.. and i had no further communication with what happened after that.. i do know that a horrible rumour went around about Charlie Hagens .. who i grew up with etc etc .. and they used it as a threat to keep people from leaving.. saying that his death was because he left the church.. so you see.. when you say in the other post i have strong words.. do you doubt why..

i for myself can tell you that he was not putting on anything ...James Barber.. he was a very real brother..

Guest1

08-01-2008, 12:11 AM

Here is a quote from Brent Barber about it:

"I only know the scandal in terms of how it affected my dad and it pretty much ruined his life as he was never the same after getting booted from hall 2 and sent out to pasture. He made the best of it and cultivated something good in OK, but his spirit and heart were broken after he lost all the young people in LA. I am not laying any of that at anyone's feet but the politics that Lee used to decimate his rivals and smear anyone who threatened his primacy. You only have to look at what happened ten years later with John Ingalls and Al Knoch to know that he never changed his MO of scorched earth."

can i ask a stupid question.. you told me that you are only an observer.. and were not in the lc.. how do you get all your info.. are you here by proxy for someone.. and can you verify the source.. where did you get the quote from Brent Barber.. i do believe it because Jane confirmed via Virginia.. (still hearsay though):)

djohnson(XLCmember)

08-01-2008, 12:18 AM

No I am not here by "proxy". I read Brent Barber's post on thebereans.net. That is where I got the quote from.

Guest1

08-01-2008, 12:30 AM

Oh thanks.. what he posted there?? wow could you give me the link please

Ohio

08-01-2008, 08:10 AM

oh thanks.. what he posted there?? wow could you give me the link please
Brent had many posts, see here:
http://www.thebereans.net/forum2/search.php?searchid=99498

Brad B posted too:
http://www.thebereans.net/forum2/showthread.php?p=154992#post154992

OBW

08-01-2008, 08:15 AM

I’m not sure this is what CMW had in mind when she started the thread, but these are my thoughts that come out of the title and a few of the existing comments.

First. What does “church life” mean? I never heard this phrase before or after the LC. What do we think is 1) theoretically intended and 2) practically meant by this term?

I do not have a full answer, but I can say that to the extent that it was about centering your life around your “church” experience, there is both value and error in that thought. If your church experience is where you are mainly reaching to God, worshipping, learning, growing, etc., then having this move into all of your life is a vast improvement. Surely our life is intended to be fully engulfed such that we are no longer the ones directing our lives, but Christ that lives in us. Of course this is what everyone else calls the Christian life. If this is the purpose of the term, then it falls squarely into the realm of a new term for an old but real experience that all of Christianity experiences (to the extent that they are actually growing — same as it applies to the LC to the extent that they are growing). That is valuable, but needs no special term, especially when the result seems to be claiming something that others who merely have the “Christian life” do not have.

But there is error in the thought if it is intended to mean that there is something so special about the corporate practices of the LC. If it means strictly your impression of your way of “doing church” then all serious Christians have a glorious church life. It may not be swinging from the rafters fun, always overtly joyous, or so openly participatory as the LC. But glory is not joy. Glory is not forms. Glory is not excitement. Glory is not bubbly enthusiasm. Glory is “praise, honor, or distinction extended by common consent.” Glorious is “possessing or deserving glory.” (definitions from M-W online dictionary) There may be a lot of talk about praising and worshipping God, but it seems that the glory is typically being given to the church. What is this about? I know. Someone will say “the church is the body of Christ.” But if there is glory in that, it is truly about the potential and not about the present reality. Although we are growing toward the fullness that is truly the body of Christ, it is the Christ that is in that spiritual body that makes it glorious, not the forms or teachings in the practical expression/assemblies that make it glorious.

As for the example of Bret Farve, I think that it is a poor example. Sorry aron, but Bret was not created for one thing — throwing footballs. He chose to become so given to this one aspect o his life and not look forward that when it came for him to move forward, he had no idea where to go. It’s sort of like those guys who retire after a workaholic life and die within two years because they have nothing without their work.

That is not what the Christian life is about. That is not “clearly seen” as the purpose for which man was created. I’m not even sure that the visions in Revelation about angels and/or elders constantly falling prostrate and saying “Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was and is and is to come” is the “purpose of man.” While I’m not sure about the “elders,” the angels were created to do what they do. Further, the times concerning which the scenes written are not the last two chapters. In those chapters we have coming and going through the gates of the city. While full details are not provided, it appears to be more than all of the angels and those who are saved in a huge hall before God endlessly chanting His praises. I think that maybe there is something as hollow in that picture as there is in the one about a “mansion just over the hilltop in that bright land where we’ll never grow old” as we play golf on the best courses, fish in the best streams, or for you geeks, surf the internet on infinite bandwidth (:D).

Instead, it may be that a creation with more than one thing to do that still chooses to praise and honor God and started by making that choice in the face of extreme duress to ignore God is more of what He wants. And maybe there is some validity to the notion that the New Jerusalem is as much about restoration of the situation in Eden, albeit at a completely different level, as it is about a gathering to Heaven to chant praises. In other words, the non-stop praising is not really what God wants. He already has that. If that was the point, then why bring Heaven to earth with a city having gates and streets and leaves to heal nations?

Maybe the only thing “glorious” about the church is not the “church life” but the Christ that is displayed by its participants as they gather to worship (however they do it) and spread out into the community the rest of the time living a life that truly loves their neighbor.

I read the blog of a friend recently who told of visiting a relative’s Presbyterian church when visiting Chattanooga. They expected to observe nothing spiritual. But they decided to see it from God’s perspective and saw 500 people who lifted their voices to read a genuine prayer of thanksgiving and repentance, among other things. They still do not chose the Presbyterian way, but they now recognize that the glory is in God and not the service, the style, or the teachings.

aron

08-01-2008, 08:30 AM

Brad B posted too:
http://www.thebereans.net/forum2/showthread.php?p=154992#post154992

Brad's post was very good; I really liked his testimony and am glad he felt led to share it on the Bereans. Thanks Ohio for the link.

Ohio

08-01-2008, 08:55 AM

Brad's post was very good; I really liked his testimony and am glad he felt led to share it on the Bereans. Thanks Ohio for the link.

I was told by Gary Evans of Austin, who was an LC spokesman, an apologetic of sorts for LSM, that Brett Barber was a "pathetic disgrace" to his father's (James Barber) excellent name, due to his outspoken views about LSM and the LC's, and how he had influenced his own mother to leave the LC.

Perhaps a little off topic here, but after all those years practicing "just follow the brother before you" it's hard to change. :D

djohnson(XLCmember)

08-01-2008, 09:14 AM

When you go to the bereans.net site you can find BrentB under the Intro and Testimony section. If you click on his name it will give you the option to read all his posts. The quote I mentioned above is from a post when he is having a conversation with Sandee Rapoport.

aron

08-01-2008, 11:07 AM

Someone will say “the church is the body of Christ.” But if there is glory in that, it is truly about the potential and not about the present reality. Although we are growing toward the fullness that is truly the body of Christ, it is the Christ that is in that spiritual body that makes it glorious, not the forms or teachings in the practical expression/assemblies that make it glorious.

As for the example of Bret Farve, I think that it is a poor example. Sorry aron, but Bret was not created for one thing — throwing footballs. He chose to become so given to this one aspect o his life and not look forward that when it came for him to move forward, he had no idea where to go. It’s sort of like those guys who retire after a workaholic life and die within two years because they have nothing without their work.

That is not what the Christian life is about. That is not “clearly seen” as the purpose for which man was created. I’m not even sure that the visions in Revelation about angels and/or elders constantly falling prostrate and saying “Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was and is and is to come” is the “purpose of man.”

Maybe the only thing “glorious” about the church is not the “church life” but the Christ that is displayed by its participants as they gather to worship (however they do it) and spread out into the community the rest of the time living a life that truly loves their neighbor.

Thanks for your comments. I think you are closer to the "mark of glory", whatever it is, than I was with mine. I tend to write with inspiration but minus much consideration, and am glad for the "amendments" to my thoughts.

Jesus once said, "You honor me with your lips, but your heart is far from Me". Praising God with our lips is an integral part of our journey, mine anyway, but the "end-all & be-all" I agree is too simplistic, and in retrospect seems too close to Lee's way of zeroing in on one aspect of reality in an unbalanced way.

But I still do like to praise the Lord! :)

countmeworthy

08-01-2008, 01:02 PM

.........Jesus once said, "You honor me with your lips, but your heart is far from Me". Praising God with our lips is an integral part of our journey, mine anyway, but the "end-all & be-all" I agree is too simplistic, and in retrospect seems too close to Lee's way of zeroing in on one aspect of reality in an unbalanced way.
But I still do like to praise the Lord! :)

I too Love Praising the LORD. AND we MUST Praise the LORD!! The scriptures instruct every living thing that has BREATH to Praise the LORD!!! I think it's obvious by my posts I do just that! :D

My recollection of 'praising the Lord' in the LC was soooooo outward...almost, ALMOST superficial. It was expected we 'Praise the Lord'. So like a bunch of mechanical robots, we did. But that's ok. At least we were doing SOMETHING!!! A lot of people don't even open their mouths except to eat & drink and talk about everything under the sun but the things of the Lord.

If anything, we learned to to tap into the rivers of Living Water by Giving Praise to our LORD & KING. At least I did.

I recall making a conscientious effort to pay ATTENTION to the Words that came out of me while at the prayer meetings or when we 'called on the Lord' while going into the meeting halls or greeting the saints by saying 'Praise the LORD saints!'. I realized we/I could easily get trapped into speaking 'vain repititions'.

To prevent that I knew I HAD to go deeper...for deep calleth unto Deep.

So I 'exercised' and 'exercised'. Then I got burned out. I got burned out because I had hidden sin...unrepentant sin. Inward sin I wouldn't let go of. God knew I wasn't letting go & couldn't bless me with His PRESENCE even though He did bless me by providing for me and not forsaking or leaving me.

But about 4 yrs ago, I did some heavy duty soul searching. I did the right thing. I confessed my hidden sin & with buckets of tears, I asked the Lord to forgive me. I learned the power of Repentance. I learned the power of Brokenness, I experienced the Power of the Cleansing Blood of the Lamb...and when I gave my life back to the LORD, I learned the power of Galations 2:20 !! I now LOVE that scripture...'cause I know what it is to die to self..and it is LIBERATING!!! :hurray:

Today when the forum or my friends or in my private time with the Lord, I declare the PRAISES of My KING, everyone knows I declare His GLORY with JOY UNSPEAKABLE !!!!!!!

I'm not being pretentious. I'm not putting on a front. But you better believe I know what it is to WALLOW, not merely walk in the valley of the shadow of death. I KNOW what it is to be in the belly of Jonah's whale. So when I speak of our GREAT REDEEMER and DELIVERER, I know that JESUS is MIGHTY TO SAVE...'cause He saved me...not just from going to hell..but from my dead end life!!!!! :hurray:

I genuinely AM living in the Presence of the KING 24/7!!! And I don't want to be anywhere else. Never again do I ever want to leave the Presence of MY Lord, Our LORD and KING--Jesus, the Anointed One..and His Holy Spirit. And now God can and IS using me!!

THANK YOU Sweet LORD JESUS!! BLESS THE SAINTS on this Forum WITH YOUR PRESENCE!!!! With Your LOVE!! With Your GLORY!!! With Your POWER!!! You are WORTHY-LAMB of GOD!! You ALONE are WORTHY! HALELLUIA King JEEEESUS!!!!!

aron

08-01-2008, 06:24 PM

Wow. I just read Brad Barber's testimony for a second time. I have been thinking about it all day.

Can you imagine, out of 40 young men 18 of them gather and pray for the going on of one of their own, who has just suffered such a devastating loss? Brad says the presence of the Lord was there, and I can believe it. That, my friends, is an "assembly", that is "Glory in the Church". When a random and seemingly disparate group of people can drop all the differences and gather in the Lord's name, and together beseech Him, extoll Him, praise and thank Him, and call upon Him for further salvation and provision and the going on of one of their own, that is "the kingdom and the power and the glory", forever and ever amen.

And part 2 of the story, when the local LSM "facilitator" decries any experience apart from the aegis of Lee to be "of Satan", and the young brother says, "thank you very much, goodbye" and walks out. Wow. Very dramatic, very arresting. Even humorous, in a dry, Isaiah/Paul kind of way. Brad, wherever you are out there, amen, brother. Peace to you and thanks for taking a minute to share part of your story.

God is wonderful. Praises and thanks and honor and glory to Him forever and ever amen.

Guest1

08-01-2008, 08:38 PM

I was told by Gary Evans of Austin, who was an LC spokesman, an apologetic of sorts for LSM, that Brett Barber was a "pathetic disgrace" to his father's (James Barber) excellent name, due to his outspoken views about LSM and the LC's, and how he had influenced his own mother to leave the LC.

Perhaps a little off topic here, but after all those years practicing "just follow the brother before you" it's hard to change. :D

wow to this i say GLORY TO GOD !!

to All: thank you so so much for links.. going to go read now..

God's Blessings..

Guest1

08-01-2008, 08:39 PM

Hope

08-02-2008, 06:25 AM

Ohio

08-02-2008, 06:30 AM

The Barber boys had some personal issues growing up in the LC's with such a notable father, a gifted teacher, and who was there in LA almost from the beginning. In this regard, some considered that the boys were not a glory to their, now deceased, father. The comments I mentioned partly reflected this fact.

But, in my mind, this begs a much bigger question -- why?

For so long, we all received numerous promises of the Lord's blessing upon our families and children, just by being "absolute for Christ and the church." Later this translated into "absolute oneness for the ministry." Not just in Barber's case, but in so many others, including my own, I kept asking "where is the promised blessing." Not only was there the lack of blessing, but, in many families, the appearance of curse.

James Barber was long regarded as one such prototype, absolute in his heart and living and teaching. As such, he should have been the most blessed. Instead, somewhat "the opposite" occurred. His family has "left the church." How could this be? In my mind this was unthinkable.

So many exclusive "claims" by the ministry were just "lies" to extract daily service from the saints. How many times did I hear, "you just give yourself to the church, and the Lord will take care of your family." That is why I was forced over the years to rethink so many LC claims.

The greatest lesson to learn from James Barber was that all his exclusive teachings should be rejected as failures. The same is true of all LSM teachings. Their continual judgments upon outsiders and their elitist claims should all be discarded. We have seen enough of that bad fruit. I do remember James' love for the Lord, His people, and His word, but like to forget the rest.

This, in my view, was part of the reason the "glorious church life" faded. Healthy patterns of Christian parenting were often discarded in favor of "the program." LSM visions of exclusive grandeur hoped to invent a "better mousetrap" and they failed.

YP0534

08-02-2008, 07:47 AM

finallyprettyokay

08-02-2008, 08:08 AM

Dear Forum,

Read Barber's testimony and see if it adds up. I never saw or heard of the kind fantastic details he gave. Having a rainbow booklet in your pocket will cause people to cross the street? Any spin here? Based on his concluding statement what might he have said in the first statement that he did not report? Could he have characterized the lc speaker any more negatively, Borg? etc. Is he really such a dear, pure as the driven snow?

Just think about all he says and use your brain.

Hope

The Freemans acted outside of all boundaries set by any other arm of the LC. That seems clear, from all reports. The rainbow booklet having magic powers (my words, I think :confused:) doesn't seem so far out of the realm of possiblity. We put on what were pretty much pillowcases with slogans and had our own parades. We did so many wacky things, and lots of it didn't make sense.

Hope, I wonder why you would question this brother? I am a little confused about it -- seems like there must be a story behind this, and I am not sure it is a story that we deserve to hear. Help me understand. It feels sort of personal ----- :confused:

Thanks, Hope. I always appreciate your gentleness.

FPO

Guest1

08-02-2008, 05:14 PM

djohnson(XLCmember)

08-02-2008, 06:27 PM

After the god-man socks nothing would surprise me about LCS including any marketing scheme they came up with to pitch the "rainbow" booklets.

finallyprettyokay

08-02-2008, 06:48 PM

After the god-man socks nothing would surprise me about LCS including any marketing scheme they came up with to pitch the "rainbow" booklets.

Okay, I give. What, oh what are god-man socks?

I wonder if we should start a thread on Wackiest Things Practiced, or something. Probably offensive. But fun, in a backwards, venting sort of way. :jester:

You know, I love picking out a smilie to use. I AM a simple sister, after all !!! :rollingeyes2: :rollingeyesfrown: :eek2:

FPO

djohnson(XLCmember)

08-02-2008, 07:48 PM

To my knowledge merchandise the LSM was pitching. Back in the day it was discussed at some length on the thebereans.net site.

Hope

08-02-2008, 07:50 PM

As we all, desire to sort through our journey with Christ and our common experience in the lc, it is important to consider James Barber. Few brothers had such a defining influence on the lc. I spent much more time with him than I ever did with WL. In fact during the critical time period of 1973-1978, I spent much more time with Max Rapoport than I did with WL. When my next chapter comes out James and Max will be major characters and players. (Chapter three will cover 1972-1976. Then Chapter Four will cover 1977-1981. This is the defining period of time.)

Almost from the beginning, James was in a struggle for the hearts and minds of brothers and sisters outside of LA. Later Max also was in a struggle to be the most influential person in the LC network. They battled each other. I know because I was an object of their fight and heard from both of them about the other brother and what he was doing.

James was a very significant player is the down fall of Doug Krieger. He was working to bring down Max and Max to bring down James. Max won and James went to OK City where he would have little influence over WL or the work in Anaheim and a diminished role nationally. There will be plenty more to say on this line but I would like to address a very important observation Ohio has made and I quoted above.

James was the number one advocate for putting meetings and church functions above family. He despised saints who came on Sundays. He had invented a smear "SMOs" (Sunday Morning Only). I heard him use this countless times to slander some of the brethren in LA. He constantly admonished elders in private fellowship to limit the SMOs. Sometimes I heard him concede to a brother about caring for the SMOs with the statement, "well at least they are good for numbers."

No one was ever more critical of others both in the lc and in Christianity than James. This was a point Max successfully used against him as nearly everyone was consciously or unconsciously bothered by James' unending put downs. (I hear the same kind of mocking derision in the Barber sons. I must believe they learned it from their father.) Since James represented WL and always made sure all realized that he had come from WL, his behavior and speaking was the equivalent of WL's speaking and behavior. At the time, I was too naive. Until Max made it clear that James was not necessarily a spokes person for WL, it was hard to see how much was actually James. Of course, I do strongly believe that James was to a great extent a product of the shaping of WL.

Now, James truly loved Christ and desired to serve the Lord. He was a very gifted teacher of the Bible and somewhat of an evangelist. We all received spiritual help from James. Otherwise his negatives could not have taken hold.

His family is a big testimony of his negatives: for example; Church activities over caring for the family, the meetings and ministry take care of everything, do not have opinions, don't think, don't criticize the ministry, and the big one: WL is God's anointed, today's David, and thus God will bless whatever WL does etc.

Please tolerate me. I do not like to point out the flaws in others. I have too many flaws myself. The Lord has had mercy on me. There is hope for us all. I fear I may come accross as writing off real and dear brothers and sisters because of mistakes and sins of the past. But remember our Lord does not break a bruised reed.

In Christ Jesus there is hope for us all,

Hope, Don Rutledge

Hope

08-02-2008, 08:03 PM

Brother Hope,

I have limited time.
Shoud I spend it to read that?

Thank you.

Dear YPO534,

I know what you mean. This forum has surely eaten into some of the many things that seem important but the Lord seems to have drawn me into this and you can probably say the same. Yet we do need some discernment. There are a few posters on the other forum I decided to skip. A big reason I left that forum was that some just wanted to waste our time and to gum up the fellowship. Also it is important to discern who is genuine and who is sober minded.

Because I know a lot of the details around the Barber family I have little confidence in the fairness or accuracy of their posts. But all is up to you. Use the God given discernment you have.

In Christ Jesus there is hope for us all,

Hope, Don Rutledge

AndPeter

08-02-2008, 08:46 PM

...
Because I know a lot of the details around the Barber family I have little confidence in the fairness or accuracy of their posts. ...

Dear brother Don,

One thing that struck me was when Brent shared to the effect that his father had second thoughts about the LC in the last few months of his life. The post is towards the end of his series of posts. I looked but could not locate it.

Would you care to comment on this statement as to its fairness or accuracy.

Steve

Guest1

08-02-2008, 08:46 PM

To my knowledge merchandise the LSM was pitching. Back in the day it was discussed at some length on the thebereans.net site.

ROFL.. i never heard about that.. lol..

Hope

08-02-2008, 09:10 PM

Dear brother Don,

One thing that struck me was when Brent shared to the effect that his father had second thoughts about the LC in the last few months of his life. The post is towards the end of his series of posts. I looked but could not locate it.

Would you care to comment on this statement as to its fairness or accuracy.

Steve

James died of cancer. He was in Irving living with Benson seeking to get help from alternative treatments. During this time no one had much contact with him. Before this I had pretty much dropped contact with him. He was becoming more and more odd. I attributed it to nothing in particular. Perhaps it was due to internal conflicts about the lc. He suffered greatly over the whole thought of the video messages. He complained to me that "we ministering brothers" may as well get a pop corn machine and sell pop corn during the videos. It was obvious to me that he saw his role in the recovery was pretty much over and WL was going a different direction with different people. James could have certainly been disappointed. I never heard him criticize WL but he was not happy at the end.

In Christ Jesus there is hope for us all,

Hope, Don Rutledge

PS

Yo djohson,

God-men socks???!!! When did this happened? Makes we want to double over in laughter. How crazy did things get? Who had the socks? Where did they come from? How do you get a pair of those babies?

Hope

08-02-2008, 09:54 PM

oh no oh ok dude wow i dont want to gum up the fellowship .. so someone better spell out what the criteria is for being over there and being over here.. oh wait isnt that what mods and admin is for.. whats that ...sniff sniff... i smell religion.. and Lord forgive me for this offense.. and brothers and sisters and mods and admin..

Hello Sister Kat,

No you don't smell religion. I did not have you in mind. To know what I mean go to the other forum. Look up posts by cuttingstraight, a local church apologist. Most on this forum have concluded that there was nothing genuine with him but an attempt to prevent any progress from being made. This forum jumped from less than 10 to over 60 in just a few days due to the bad faith posters over there. There is a thread there where they are discussing the "Mass Migration."

Calm down, drink some water. No problem if you get a little over the top but if someone comments on that be happy that we can have dialogue. I have been called much worse than religious.:D If I get a little over the top, OBW or Thankful Jane will help me out. Maybe Nell will add a few cents worth to make sure I get the message.

Hope

finallyprettyokay

08-02-2008, 10:28 PM

Hope wrote: Please tolerate me. I do not like to point out the flaws in others. I have too many flaws myself. The Lord has had mercy on me. There is hope for us all. I fear I may come accross as writing off real and dear brothers and sisters because of mistakes and sins of the past. But remember our Lord does not break a bruised reed.

I have never been completely sure what the bruised reed thing means -- I have heard completely different things about it --- amazing how different. Well, I think you mean like, don't kick a dog when he's down. God doesn't. He really does love us, with all the flaws we have. Bruised reeds that God treats with gentle drawing towards Him.

We all have people in the LC or out of the LC that we love. People who were part of our story. I have shared that Max and his wife are two of those people for me. I am telling you, I would have stayed an insane little 17 year strung out addict if he hadn't been willing to do what God told him to do in my town. And all throughout that experience he was always there for me. Sandee, too. And although I was young, we had a equality that comes from God.

There are others I could talk about --- friends and people I loved. We all have lots of names in our hearts, I think. And that is precious. Most of us become a little bit like a grizzly bear if we feel our loved ones are being hurt or threatened.

So, I have been trying to figure out how I feel about all of this. You said to use the discernment God has given us. It's extra hard to do that on line. Have we all known someone who goes to meet an 'internet romance'? Scares everyone to death. Because it is hard to have discernment on line. Okay, it's not that good of an example, but it sort of illustrates my point.

I have enjoyed your book. I admire your williness to open up your chest cavity and let us into your heart and your life. And I don't know you at all. I remember your name, but that is about all. I have this thought that you are tall. :crazy: --- funny, huh? And still, I feel like I like you. Your writing about Daystar touched my heart, and I wrote to you about it.

So, I am feeling like I like you well enough, and trust you some, too. But ...but I don't want anyone to say things about people I love. We are ALL like that. And it's not just Max and his wife --- there are others that I feel protective about.

I know I am not the only one with this inward conflict. At least, I don't think I am.

So, where it leaves me is this --- I have some choices. Just ditch this whole thing right now, head in the sand before anything really makes me sad :crying: or mad :mad:. Or, try to be less thin-skinned, and see what comes.

I wasn't in on the behind the scenes politics of the whole thing like you were. And boy, howdy, am I glad I wasn't. I guess I knew plenty, but not every detail or the nitty-gritty. That makes our experience and understanding different now, just as it was then.

Does any of this make sense? I am saying to me, to you, to anyone who wants to listen :allears: ---let's just remember to not break any bruised reeds, not to kick a dog while he's down. We need to have lots of gentleness and kindness with each other.

And I will do my best to stay open to you, Don. 'Cuz I have this idea that you are a good person. Stay open to me, too.

FPO

PS --- how cute is my little dog? Cute.

Guest1

08-02-2008, 10:31 PM

brother Don..Hope..
cool.. sorry you caught that before my edit.. oh well the Lord exposes me and I love it.. I really do like to get burned by the Lord.. ok so we are cool over here.. i will go check it out.. right now i was reading your history of lc .. is that what you meant by chapters.. you are going to add to that .. if you have links to your work .. i would appreciate it..

God's Blessings

Guest1

08-02-2008, 10:35 PM

FPO thanks for your post.. encouraging.. :)

YP0534

08-02-2008, 11:08 PM

I know what you mean. This forum has surely eaten into some of the many things that seem important but the Lord seems to have drawn me into this and you can probably say the same. Yet we do need some discernment. There are a few posters on the other forum I decided to skip. A big reason I left that forum was that some just wanted to waste our time and to gum up the fellowship. Also it is important to discern who is genuine and who is sober minded.

Brother Hope,

I appreciate your candor and guessed that you would respond in just this way.
I thank you for your fellowship.

djohnson(XLCmember)

08-03-2008, 12:29 AM

Hope

08-03-2008, 06:37 AM

finallyfeelingprettyok if you read something about someone on this forum e.g. Mr. Rapoport and it doesn't make sense to you based on what you know I recommend trying to contact the person directly and asking them their viewpoint on the same subject.

Another example is Hope's discussion about James Barber. From my research the attitude Barber had about "SMO's" was widespread in the LCS. Maybe different terms were used but the same attitude. I would even suggest the entire leadership of the LCS, then and now, with some possible exceptions, have an edge of arrogance towards anyone who is not wholeheartedly and unquestioningly pursuing their agenda. Barber was not the exception he was the rule. Since Barber is dead we cannot ask him about it but do some research and I'm sure you'll find the attitude was pervasive.

Hello dj,

I would use a stronger phrase than arrogance to describe the attitude towards the believers in Christ who were not "good Material," or could not fully participate in the up-to-date agenda. It was wrong, wrong, wrong and fully against the nature of our Lord Jesus.

I never heard anyone use the term SMOs except James. He actually boasted that it was his term. Due to his gift in teaching and position as one of the inner circle of WL almost from the beginning, James shaped many attitudes and practices in the lc.

As you point out, you cannot check with James. If you do have access to Max or his friend asks him about James' attitude. I appreciated Max's efforts to deal with the arrogance among many of the leaders and in particular he was very frank to point out the failure to appreciate those who may be considered a little bit of an "ugly duckling." Whereas James was quick to point out alleged short comings in others, church elders and Christianity in general, for the most part Max did not speak much about people who were not in the room. Now he could really tie into a brother when he wanted to but at first did it to his face. Unfortunately, he seemed to get the WL habit of criticizing others behind their back. On my part by 1978, I had had it with the undermining from James and that which was beginning to come from Max's inner circle and from Max himself, at least as reported to me by many of his inner circle. Twice I confronted Max and he did not deny my charges but did promise to change. I accepted that but later was very dissapointed to learn that he was still going that way. No doubt WL had a lot to do with this as this was not the Max that I first met and came to know.

Looking back, I find it hard to believe for how long I gave the main leaders, WL, JB, MR a pass on attitudes and behaviors which any sincere believer would reject or have serious reservations. Maybe that is part of the djohnson "gravitas" thing which I lack. I hate to think of how guilty I must have also been. LORD HAVE MERCY ON US ALL!!!

During my journey toward the goal of the high calling in Christ, I have not found it helpful to do the group judgment thing. (dj you tend to throw all into the same pot. Just think about it. ) The Lord is very specific when He convicts us. Thus we can confess and clear up the matter. Unprofitable condemnation is always very general. Kind of like the devil's, "Don, you are bad bad bad, you have always been bad and you will always be bad." Whereas the Lord says, "dear child, I love you and want the best for you. Leave that sin, or attitude or worthless thing. That is not the new creation which is the real you. I am here. Come to Me now." This is my hope for all of us. If I feel compelled to point out less than pleasant things from the past, I am looking to the Lord that it will be for the purpose of light, conviction and restoration. Please pray for me.

In Christ Jesus there is hope for us all,

Hope, Don Rutledge

Hope

08-03-2008, 07:00 AM

Good Morning FPO,

I greatly appreciate your post. My heart is very warmed. I am so much for bruised reeds. The bruised reed was like a home made musical instrument. If it was bruised or damaged it lost its ability to play music. Maybe a little like a certain 17 year old that the Rapoports brought back to health. The principle applies after we are saved. Sometimes we are damaged. The Lord does not throw us away but restores us to play beautiful music. I am a bruised reed being restored. How thankful I am!!! I love the comtemporary song "Lord we appreciate You." In North Carolina just about all with whom I assemble are bruised reeds whom the Lord is restoring. When we sing that song, often tears flow from many eyes. Tears of gratitude.

FPO, I am not tall and may resemble you cute little dog.:) If you never met me, don't worry. You did not miss much.

In Christ Jesus there is hope for us all,

Hope, Don Rutledge

Ohio

08-03-2008, 07:07 AM

He suffered greatly over the whole thought of the video messages. He complained to me that "we ministering brothers" may as well get a pop corn machine and sell pop corn during the videos. It was obvious to me that he saw his role in the recovery was pretty much over and WL was going a different direction with different people. James could have certainly been disappointed. I never heard him criticize WL but he was not happy at the end.

James' comment about the videos is quite telling. How sad that must have been for him. Not only did he endeavor to be the best "WL Promoter" on the planet, but he was bested by another, Max R, in a power struggle, which isolated him on "an island" in OKC. And now he feels completely useless by the emerging technology of "Beta machines."

James was not alone in this regard. The "New Way," FTTA, "laboratory experiment" had the same subtle goal -- to discredit all the senior brothers around the country who were the very ones promoting the ministry of WL from the beginning. This pattern of "using and discarding" gifted brothers is troublesome for sure. Think about our history of quarantines.

This side of LC history is hidden for sure. The sad and painful experience of promoting a minister, only to come up in the end "on empty." Heart- wrenching indeed. At one time (II Corinthians Training circa 1982) I felt that promoting the ministry of WL was more important than the message of the cross of Christ. Can you believe that? To me "promoting the ministry" was the gospel of the kingdom of the heavens, while the message of the cross of Christ was just the "low gospel" of going to heaven. Where was I?

Yes, the ministry of WL taught us many Bible truths which were helpful, but in his ministry we got lots of "extras." These "extras" had many strings attached. Eventually all these "extras" served as leaven to leaven the whole lump. This is why so many ex-members struggle to differentiate what is healthy "bread from heaven," and what is not.

Another sad fact is this -- the ministry of TC is also loaded with "extras."

Ohio

08-03-2008, 07:13 AM

I have never been completely sure what the bruised reed thing means -- I have heard completely different things about it --- amazing how different. Well, I think you mean like, don't kick a dog when he's down. God doesn't. He really does love us, with all the flaws we have. Bruised reeds that God treats with gentle drawing towards Him.

The "bruised reed" is in reference to Matt 12.20

Yes, your dog is very cute.

aron

08-03-2008, 08:36 AM

Brother Hope,

I have limited time.
Shoud I spend it to read that [Brad Barber's testimony]?

Thank you.

I liked it because of the "assembly" he cited, which is the reality of the concept you have been discussing.

There were 40 young men in an Air Force training platoon. One of them lost his brother and 3 friends in a car accident. 18 of these young men joined hands and prayed, one by one, to ask the Father for grace for this young man, that he could find the strength to go on. Brad, who came from a local church background, felt God's 'parousiea', His presence, so strongly during the asssembly that he later testified about it in a local church meeting.

His testimony was panned; they were busy at that time flogging the "rainbow booklets".

18 young men, from across the country, seemingly with nothing in common except that they are Air Force recruits, praying together for one of their own. They besought the heavenly Father, based on their faith of the saving name of Jesus. It is very rare to hear of meetings in the name of Jesus that are apart from the corrupting influence of some christian organization. So I am always happy to hear that such assemblies of God's called-out ones can, in fact, occur.

YP0534

08-03-2008, 12:31 PM

I liked it because of the "assembly" he cited, which is the reality of the concept you have been discussing.

There were 40 young men in an Air Force training platoon. One of them lost his brother and 3 friends in a car accident. 18 of these young men joined hands and prayed, one by one, to ask the Father for grace for this young man, that he could find the strength to go on. Brad, who came from a local church background, felt God's 'parousiea', His presence, so strongly during the asssembly that he later testified about it in a local church meeting.

His testimony was panned; they were busy at that time flogging the "rainbow booklets".

18 young men, from across the country, seemingly with nothing in common except that they are Air Force recruits, praying together for one of their own. They besought the heavenly Father, based on their faith of the saving name of Jesus. It is very rare to hear of meetings in the name of Jesus that are apart from the corrupting influence of some christian organization. So I am always happy to hear that such assemblies of God's called-out ones can, in fact, occur.

I appreciate the follow-up aron.

That brother is clearly and understandably bitter and he uses a lot of hurt words in getting his point across, but, it in its essence, it was a good testimony of the manifestation of God in His assembly outside the confines of the Local Church and it is not surprising that it was put down. Particulary for a brother who had "a name" within the group, a statement of his meeting God OUTSIDE the group was problematic.

As a footnote, I can tell you that I heard something similar about the rainbow booklets even before this time and although I faithfully carried one around in the top pocket of my regulation button-down shirt for nearly all of college, no one ever asked me about it. I eventually took to merely abandoning them at phone booths and bus stations like any other Christianity tract in the world.

"We have the Gold Bar! We have the Rainbow Booklets!" We were so excited to have these riches. True, it was good, high stuff but honestly? Nobody really cared very much at all, not other believers and not unbelievers.

Go take a look the response Paul got from the Aereopagites in Acts 17...

djohnson(XLCmember)

08-03-2008, 01:02 PM

Hope I appreciate and agree with your advise on not doing the group judgment thing. As in my post you refer to I always try to leave room for exceptions because obviously they must exist e.g. James was the rule not the exception implies there must be some exceptions. But if I stop doing this and get into the group thing please feel free to call me on it.

You refer to Lee, Barber and Rapoport as the main leaders in the LCS. In America my impression is that Lee was the main leader and under him were John Ingalls, Bill Mallon and James Barber. And these three worked together to travel and give conferences usually in pairs. Later Rapoport was brought into a prominent role by Lee and his manifestation started with his joining the others in giving a conference in Anaheim replacing Lee who was sick at the time. Apparently the audience seemed to really appreciate Rapoport i.e his refreshing humor and ability to story tell.

Meanwhile there were regional leaders emerging: Benson Phillips, Bill Freeman and Titus Chu who more or less dominated their areas.

From this I get that under Lee as the papal figure there were more or less about 7 key leaders. Am I correct in this? And if so what roles did they play? Especially John Ingalls and Bill Mallon who were there from the beginning with Lee in L.A.

Hope

08-03-2008, 02:28 PM

dj
You have it pretty much right. I would add John So if you want to include Europe and Ransford Acka in Africa. The difference between Ingalls and Mallon and Barber and Rapoport was the extent of their shaping influence. Neither JI nor BM had the force of personality or boldness to attempt to shape the churches, elders and co-workers. They, like all, had their opinions but were primarily interested in spiritual growth and purity of testimony.
All of the seven you mentioned had one common thread. They all were devoted to and very protective of WL. They all had a superstitious notion about deputy authority, the oneness of the work or ministry and WL's special portion. Bill Freeman and Bill Mallon were the most flexible and appreciative of what the Lord was doing in the various churches and through other brothers, both in the lc and out of the lc. John Ingalls could be a little naive and tended to always trust everyone's good intentions. But James felt he should play a role in assuring the "Oneness of God's Move" or should I say conformity with and submission to WL and his work. Max believed in the vision of Christ and the Church and that the Lord was currently building up a practical testimony etc. But he was different from James in that he did not see the current way being practiced generally in most of the local churches as the way to go. You could say he started the first national new way movement in the local churches. Barber opposed just as he had opposed and overcome the two Dougs in Berkley. Max was stronger and prevailed. But take it as fact it was going to be James or Max. James would have included John Ingalls and Bill Mallon as his inner circle while Max had selected a different set of supporters.

Yes the big three conference givers were JI, JB and BM and later MR. Conferences were one thing but the extensive and long exhausting private fellowships with the local and regional leaders that went on behind closed doors during the conference times was where the action was.

For yours and for who-so-ever else’s information here is a little 20,000 foot picture of how the various brothers operated in these sessions.

John Ingalls wanted to discuss the messages of the conferences and to learn what was happening in the various churches. He also was very interested in individuals and had an incredible memory for details regarding brothers and sisters. He was deeply interested in their well being. No one feared they may say a wrong thing but John was very free to offer his help and opinion on spiritual living and functioning in the church.

Bill Mallon loved to discuss the Bible truths as well as whatever he was speaking on. He was big on fellowship regarding the experience of the cross. If things were not going smoothly, do not look to Bill M. for a lot of sympathy. In his view, no elder was ever treated badly but rather we all needed more of the cross and more life. Only Benson was more interested in the fine points and details of a local project. If you were buying property, building a building or getting a fax machine do not bring it up. Bill loved to discuss the details.

Bill Freeman was always soaring at least at second heaven level. He loved to discuss his latest revelation from the scriptures and to discuss "the Lord's Work." He was very very interested in the story of any of the brothers where he was visiting. While I was with Bill F. least of all, I know more details of his life before, at and after salvation than any of the others.

Titus Chu was a big listener. He conducted himself in a very humble manner and it was so easy to open whatever was on your heart. We were always amazed when he responded at how helpful and insightful his fellowship was. He had a different flavor in his regards for WL. It was almost a reverence and marked by great gratitude. If an apostle is one who is a special gift to the Body of Christ to give direct aid in the local building of the church, that was Titus above all others. He never pushed Witness Lee's personal work as all but Freeman did but rather gave full attention to the building up work at hand.

James spoke little about what he might be sharing at the conference, but was busy reporting on issues and problems and warning the local leaders. He also had a lot to say about how things should be done and which of the elders or co-workers throughout the country/world were not exactly proper in their alignment with WL or who was working independently or who was not in life. He liked to talk about the economy, business and politics. Many times I felt I was just in a good ole boys bull session.

Max was ready to get with the program of taking the earth, spreading the gospel, mobilizing the saints etc. He had little use for so called spirituality and criticized in a generic way those who would stress purity of method over what will work. After two hours with Max, you often did not know if you should jump through a flaming hoop or just wind your watch. But you probably did have a good time.

Benson was and is the best at this type of gathering. He could control but would not exercise control. He would lead without appearing to do so. ETC. Eventually he was the strongest of all. He was a master at this type of meeting, maybe even better that WL. Whenever the session ended, we all knew our place and what we were expected to do and that Benson was in charge.

It was in this type of setting that WL controlled the churches. Later as he traveled less he added more of his special elders-co/workers gatherings. James and Max and later Benson used this setting to gain influence throughout the country. Benson is not a dynamic speaker or Bible expositor yet he is now the leader not any of the other six. How? What I introduced is the key to understanding how things were done. I am not trying to blow my own horn but if you were not allowed into these gatherings you are not privy to “the what happened to us full picture.”

In Christ Jesus there is hope for us all,

Hope, Don Rutledge

djohnson(XLCmember)

08-03-2008, 06:06 PM

finallyprettyokay

08-03-2008, 06:07 PM

Hope

08-03-2008, 07:04 PM

Hope do you think Barber would have supported the quarantine against Mallon, Ingalls, etc and now the one against Chu? I understand that any answer you give will be speculative because it's impossible to know with certainty but I'm just wondering if you think he would have sacrificed his friends for the cause of Lee.

dj

I have little doubt that he would have supported the quarantine. He was not bound by conscience to any of the brothers. For example, around 1978, he threw John So and I under the bus.

Here is the story. The LSM office had seemly come out of nowhere and began setting the direction for the individual local churches. This was raising some alarm bells. The booklet, "The Beliefs and Practices" was announced after a morning training session. John So and I had scheduled a lunch that day. We both had gotten a copy and were very troubled by several matters. Not the content, but the authorship, "The Co-Workers of the Lord's Recovery." Here was an entity and group of which we had never heard. To us, the Lord's recovery was a spiritual activity originated in the third heavens at the throne of God rather than some group or organization on earth. Also who are these seemingly self anointed emissaries? In addition, we were not happy that the brothers and sisters could just hand someone an official publication, as was promoted with the announcement of the booklet, rather than being ready to give an answer for the hope that is within them. In addition, how could you not say that we now had a head quarters which could speak for all the so called Local churches?

As we spoke and walked to the diner, other brothers began to join us, kind of like Luke chapter 24. Francis Ball, Ned Nossaman, and James Barber were with us. I am pretty sure that Dick Taylor was also there. They all agreed that they had a bothering. Francis as an elder in Anaheim prayed with WL before every meeting. He proposed that he set up a private fellowship with him after the evening session. We all agreed. James was in total agreement with John and me and expressed his desire to be in that meeting and to express his concerns to WL.

Right after the meeting James informed John So and I that WL was very upset. Francis had tipped off James. WL did not want to have a quiet private talk but chose to dress the two of us down in the hall for all to see. As soon as the meeting was over, we two were marched to the front. Chairs were rearranged. John and I set by ourselves facing WL and about 50 brothers including James Barber who set behind WL in support of him. Scores of the attendance milled around the little court room and became an audience. WL never asked us to open our concerns but immediately launched into a tirade against us and issued a general warning that if we continued to question what the office and the ministry was doing we would cause a lot of damage to the saints and we would damage ourselves. I can never forget the glare of despising we got from Ron Kangas as WL continued for about 10 minutes with the rebuke. Then he dismissed the meeting and we all went home. Was I ever in shock!!! So was John So. I was taking hospitality with Ned. On the ride home he laughed and laughed. He said this regularly happened to the elders in Orange County California.

James had that sheep eating dog look while WL defended the booklet, the LSM and warned John and I to keep silent. After that night, there were no more auras around the WL coordination for me. I determined I would never be bullied again. I still held to the vision of Christ as Life and the Oneness of the Body of Christ is a vital matter, but the personality cult was broken for me. I did backslide and allowed myself to get drawn into the lawsuit for a while. But I never jumped again when WL or one of his cadre yelled frog. I never again promoted the activities from Anaheim as something all the members in Dallas should plunge into. We begin to shepherd the church according to the need of the members. I decided to take what was helpful and leave alone what was some wild hare. Shortly after this I learned of the secret bank account of WL and LSM being run by Benson and an elder in Dallas. Yet it still took several years for my direction and loyalties to change. Whoa I am getting way ahead of myself.

But dj, I am pretty sure that James valued the favor of WL more that his relationship to John Ingalls and Bill Mallon and for sure Titus did not mean anything to him.

Hope

Hope

08-03-2008, 07:14 PM

Don:

Would it be hard to describe yourself, your style, emphasis, etc., like you have the others? Well, yeah, it would be hard, I'm sure, but would it be possible? I would love to hear that part of this story ---

thanks -----

FPO

How many hearts were broken, huh? So sad. Political or not, self interests or not, so many people gave their allegiance to WL, only to be tossed out when he felt like tossing. So sad.

Yes FPO the damage done to the consciences of the dear brothers and sisters is the number one big thing. There is going to be a severe reckoning at the judgement seat for those LSM operatives who stumbled those for whom Christ died. It is not for me but for them that I have engaged in this activity on the web.

As far as my style, I trust this forum lays it out. As much as I can I try to respond to the posters in a good conscience and be careful not to offend and to hear what they are saying. According to the Psalms, the Saints are the Majestic Ones on the earth. It is wonderful to contact believers however the Lord opens it up.

In Christ Jesus there is Hope for us all,

Hope, Don Rutledge

finallyprettyokay

08-03-2008, 07:20 PM

Hope

08-03-2008, 07:59 PM

No, I mean in those meetings, back then.

Oh, wait --- your post #58 answered the question some. Sorry, our posts crossed in cyber space -----

But, just continuing to press (drives my husband CRAZY) -- anything to add about your style, emphasis, back then?

(I agree with what you said about your style here, by the by )

FPO,

That is a hard question. I will have to consider. I know that I believed there was a lot more traction in one on one and small group fellowship than in message giving to larger groups. It may be hard to believe but I spent much more time in the one on one and small group than in large meetings.

I will attempt to give you a more complete answer at another time but it may be what I was trying to accomplish rather than what I actually did. You are no doubt familar with the poster OBW or Mike H. I knew him from when he was in high school. I had many small group fellowships with his wife when she was in college. Maybe they would give you an objective take on ole hope when he was flopping around in Dallas. I probably have not changed that much.

In Christ Jesus there is hope for us all,

Hope, Don Rutledge

PS I like saying my little closing. Part of my style is to speak blessing and truth concerning the finished work of Christ and our bright future and destiny.:)

finallyprettyokay

08-03-2008, 08:07 PM

:deadhorse:

Don:

I don't mean as an elder, with the brothers and sisters --- I mean, when you sat in meetings with those 8 or 9 men.

Thank you, dear dear patient brother. I know it is a hard question. :verycool:

fpo

(by the way, if I type my 'name' wrong, it spells fop. :eek:

FPO,

That is a hard question. I will have to consider. I know that I believed there was a lot more traction in one on one and small group fellowship than in message giving to larger groups. It may be hard to believe but I spent much more time in the one on one and small group than in large meetings.

I will attempt to give you a more complete answer at another time but it may be what I was trying to accomplish rather than what I actually did. You are no doubt familar with the poster OBW or Mike H. I knew him from when he was in high school. I had many small group fellowships with his wife when she was in college. Maybe they would give you an objective take on ole hope when he was flopping around in Dallas. I probably have not changed that much.

In Christ Jesus there is hope for us all,

Hope, Don Rutledge

PS I like saying my little closing. Part of my style is to speak blessing and truth concerning the finished work of Christ and our bright future and destiny.:)

Hope

08-03-2008, 08:26 PM

:deadhorse:

Don:

I don't mean as an elder, with the brothers and sisters --- I mean, when you sat in meetings with those 8 or 9 men.

Thank you, dear dear patient brother. I know it is a hard question. :verycool:

fpo

(by the way, if I type my 'name' wrong, it spells fop. :eek:

Okay FPO,

I finally understand you simple and clear question. Remember I am an old man now.

In these meetings, there were two clear categories of participants. The senior brother or brothers and the juniors. The juniors, that was me, listened, nodded and maybe took notes and appeared to be impressed and enthralled.

By the early 80s, I had heard the same observations from WL many times over and was no longer impressed. I would cut the meetings but then the next day I would receive a special invitation from WL expressing his desire that I be there. One of the benefits of moving to the forests of North Carolina was the escape from these "critical times of fellowship." And believe me what a mental health move it was to avoid the so called special, urgent elders-co/workers meetings.

By the late mid 70s, I took the Ester approach. "If I perish, I perish." If I had something to say I said it and would not yield to a WL fillabuster until I had released what was in my heart. WL actually respected me very much for this and eventually would listen. I doubt if it really made much of an impact on him.

Is this in line with what you were looking for? In those gatherings I was a small potato. I was not a big enough player to really have a style.

In Christ Jesus there is hope for us all,

Hope, Don Rutledge

finallyprettyokay

08-03-2008, 08:34 PM

I knew I was right to have hope in getting that question answered!!!! I just knew it!!!!

The juniors, that was me, listened, nodded and maybe took notes and appeared to be impressed and enthralled.

I was not a big enough player to really have a style.

:D :lol: :rolleyes:

OBW

08-04-2008, 08:25 AM

Hope,

I’ve been considering your assessments of James B and of the words written in the BARM by his sons, more particularly Brent. While I seemed to see some uncertainty in how you wanted to consider Brent’s posts, I was reminded of something I read on the BARM that few would have seen.

Outside of the Nee/Lee/LC forum are many others, including one that has a place where people simply drop in quotes that they consider noteworthy. I’ve looked at it a couple of times, and the first time, I saw a comment back by one person to another concerning the person he always quoted, J.P. Rizal. It turns out that Rizal is sort of a folk hero and philosopher of the Philippines, so I looked back at a few of the quotes attributed to him with interest. One caught my eye.

In this one quote (rather lengthy), Rizal said, in short, that the study of truth is like students seated around a statue drawing what they see. Those in the front see best, those behind less so. Behind them are those who must rely on the drawings of others. He suggested that no one could question another’s view because that was what he saw. The problem is in the notion that just because that is what I see does not mean I have seen it all, only that I have seen part very clearly. It may be true that my view is not complete and in that sense is incorrect, but when looking at that small part, it is what I see. Although out of context, it is real.

Then what is correct? When the discussion is “truth,” we seldom consider that only part of the truth is really the truth. It may be true, but it potentially paints an untrue picture. It is only in context with the whole that truth is seen in the pieces of what is true.

My addition to Rizal’s comments would be that the seeker of truth would be one who wants to see more than they already have seen. He would not be frozen to his singular perspective, but desiring to learn the rest of the picture.

I would not say that I have the best view of the LC. I’m not even sure what I think about it at times. Sometimes I think it is the most corrupt thing that ever existed and should be torn down. A minute later I think that merely exposing the corruption of the leadership coupled with some backing away from certain excessively sectarian teachings leaves a decent and vibrant Christian group. But despite some of my harsher rhetoric, I do not pretend to have all the answers or think that the LC is simply a corrupt thing that should be destroyed.

So how do we view the observations of Brent B? I would say that we accept his view as what it is. He grew up in one of the original LC households in the US. He saw the effects of what his dad’s involvement in the “ministry” did to their home life. It may not be the whole story, but I doubt that even he knows the whole story. His words are quite charged. After the childhood he had, what do we expect?

I’m not blaming James, but he may be partly to blame. I’m not saying that what Brent saw was typical. But it was something that flowed out from the ministry in some form.

When looking at the statue that is the LC, Brent B had a front row seat to view a certain portion. It may have been extreme, even for many who think there are extreme problems in the LC. It is obvious that it created a tremendous resentment that flowed out in his posts. But despite his over the top rhetoric, I doubt that he said anything that was not right there on the statue. Few others had that view. We may not like the way he said it. We may think that his manner of speech overstated things. But it is what he saw.

Can we refute it? Probably not. Is it the whole truth? Clearly not. Should we put it into the mosaic of the full description of what the LC was, or at least became? Definitely so. To pass any of it off because of the demeanor of his posts is to fall for one of the common fallacies — shooting the messenger, or ad hominem attack.

Hope

08-04-2008, 09:54 AM

Hi Mike,

Very good point. I have learned a lot from the forum because of the different views. The Barber boys point of view says a lot about not only the LC but about James and Virginia and their home life. I would not say they had a front row seat but rather a front row seat to James Barber. I am sorry they suffered but their problems are much more their own family's deal than the lc. But I do agree that we can learn a lot about the lc and the James Barber version from them. One thing for sure - James was a very peculiar person and his position and the LC pattern of exalting leaders aka deputy authority caused a lot of abnormal development. Same can be said about many of the leaders, such as Ray Graver, Patsy Freeman etc. Most of the extreme problems are associated with a few personalities. Particular personalities gaining dominance combined with the deputy authority thing caused too much hurt.

The hardest part of the lc experience for me was my interactions with the big time leaders. On the other hand, being with the regular brothers and sisters was a great joy. My children loved the single brothers who lived with us at various times. My grown adult sons have very fond memories of the church in Dallas and the single brothers with whom they interacted. We have a wonderful relationship with our children and not one has anything bad to say about the church in Dallas. Several times they have been with us when some of the old timers were together and started hashing out the problems. They have scolded me many times for dwelling on the negatives when there were so many good things. They loved the gospel meetings, Jr. High and High School conferences, baby sitting with their best friends, brothers who lived with us, and the out of town saints who took hospitality during conferences.

We currently have great fellowship within the family. They would go back to the church life they knew in Dallas in a New York minute. How come the difference from the Barber clan? Well for one thing I kept my kids away from anything that came out of Anaheim. I shielded them from the Paul Hon messes. When we coordinated with various brothers in the area regarding a junior high type conference, I insisted the others helping would not put any negatives or phony expectations on the kids. I was pretty rough on the Irving brothers about some of their negative assessments and cursing of the kids. Nope, we were not going to have it. They appreciated it and got some help.

OK City was the source of plenty of slander. I got my share and even my children were slandered. When my boys heard of things being said about them, they were very upset. It was way off, not true and a shame. I stayed cool on the outside for their sake but realized there was a bad source in OK City.

Because I selectively received James' fellowship and a few times to his face told him I did not agree with some proposal, he boasted to other elders that he was going to stop Don Rutledge. I was not worthy of being stopped but his style of oppression and control was not coming to Dallas. My major regret is that I was so dull and lacking the so called djohnson "gravitas" that I did not stand up to Benson and to most of the foolish stuff from Anaheim and thus, dear brothers and sisters were hurt. My bad, my bad.

Mike, going forward as I tell the story you will read about the wonderful saints in the lc, saints like you and your beautiful family. They were everywhere and the Lord was so wonderful. Yes, His name is Wonderful. I will write about the serious problematic teachings, and the inside view of the leadership. That is the perspective I hope I can bring that many have not had. Pray for me that I can complete the task and will do all unto Christ. My desire is that the brothers and sisters can go on without the problems acquired from the past but can build on the wonderful things that were there.

Thankful Jane and others have wondered about my position. She and I also believe you have a kind of multiple choice question. Is it that the bad leaders messed things up but the basic direction was good? Is it all bad? etc. Well, it is what it is. Let us forget trying to pigeon hole us former members. The people are the main thing. Christ is the answer for all of us. We have a bright future and destiny. We need to be restored in many ways and need to have our discernment sharpened.

Finally Mike, (boy did I get carried away, I need to get back to work!!:eek:) I do not swallow anything just because someone declares their view of the statue has some validity. Get enough skewed opinions together and who knows what might pop out. But let us all keep describing our angle and be willing to consider the view of others.

In Christ Jesus there is hope for us all,

Hope, Don Rutledge

OBW

08-04-2008, 11:15 AM

Hope,

It is just that multifaceted. Thanks for the input. I will say that while I now do not consider the time in Dallas to have been perfect by any stretch, I can clearly see that I had two views of that statue — one in Dallas and one in Irving. I probably let the latter bleed over onto my remembrance of the former.

In any case, I have become more and more amazed that you survived the system as long as you did given the openly contrary things you had to deal with from such an early time to which most of the rest of us were completely ignorant.

Ohio

08-05-2008, 02:21 AM

PS Nell and I have corresponded regarding the baseball player Josh Hamilton. What a testimony of hope he is to all of America!!! Too many have been broken and crushed by drugs and alcohol and have given up all hope. Hamilton is living walking proof of the miraculous saving power of Jesus Christ. I have heard from some of the drugged damaged ones we minister to that the Hamilton story has given them hope and we are seeing marvelous fruits of repentance and new beginnings which are nothing but a glory to God.

Thanks for sharing this. I heard of his turnaround on ESPN, but they never mentioned "the miraculous saving power of Jesus Christ."

OBW

08-05-2008, 09:02 AM

at one time I used to consider what happened to ____ I was once with in Anaheim? Over time I realized how shallow this thought was. Really the question should be are these children going on with the Lord after leaving the local churches?Terry,

This is an excellent thought.

Despite my challenge concerning one particular family and those old BARM posts, there is something in me that realizes that maybe they are too personally exposing rather than probative to any study of the LC and might be better ignored. I have since suggested in private that maybe this is the one place where backing into the tent with a blanket and leaving quietly is truly the best course of action.

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable — if anything is excellent or praiseworthy — think about such things. (Phil 4:8)

aron

08-05-2008, 09:33 AM

Despite my challenge concerning one particular family and those old BARM posts, there is something in me that realizes that maybe they are too personally exposing rather than probative to any study of the LC and might be better ignored. I have since suggested in private that maybe this is the one place where backing into the tent with a blanket and leaving quietly is truly the best course of action.

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable — if anything is excellent or praiseworthy — think about such things. (Phil 4:8)

I see your point. I seem to be attracted to testimonies like that, and Paul Krieger is another example, which are laced with equal parts of hyperbole and vitriol. I guess what I like is that you know where these folks stand! No wishy-washy 'maybe', no hesitation or doubt.

Maybe I like it because they, along with the Minoru Chen's and the Ed Marks' on the other side, frame the parameters of the debate. Reality probably lies somewhere between, but at least now you can see the edges of the field!

I believe that history will quietly cover the excesses. The truth will stand.

I read a nice quote yesterday by Kenneth Craik, an English mathematician who wrote a book in 1943 called "The Nature of Explanation". He said, "It is only by taking numerous examples and tracking down the problem from all sides that we can extract the truth; we can never wring it out of the particular example." Of course, we might rejoin that we have the 'particular example' in Jesus who exemplifies perfectly the Truth, but He alone is the exception to the rule. Jesus alone is the "faithful witness" (Rev. 1:5). Everyone else is a partial witness and needs to be held against the rest.

I apologize if I waved one witness in the air that caused some consternation. I will try to be a little more circumspect in the future. I am still learning to follow the Spirit! :)

John

08-06-2008, 05:10 PM

Well, I’ve noticed this discussion about James Barber and his progeny. It’s been suggested that these are extremes and maybe not “probative.” I believe that these testimonies, and others like them, must be kept in mind and not discarded when dealing with The Local Church issue.

Whether or not these two sons of a foundational, tier-one elder describe an extreme of the subject or not, I don’t know. What I do know is that their experiences are not isoloated. The “rule” of their father in the home was not limited to the home. Yes, it went out to the whole of “The Church in Oklahoma City” and not in a good way.

My son still periodically gets information about the people with whom he associated there in his youth. Some years back, he mentioned that he didn’t know of any former Local Church young person from OKC who wasn’t in a very bad situation. Not only were the ones he knew about not following the Lord, they were involved in everything from dealing drugs to exotic dancing. I pray that their situations have changed for the better by now. (Of course, my son didn’t know everyone’s situation.)

Okay, you say, so OKC was problematic to our study. Was it an anomoly? No, many former Local Church members know something of abuse, either directly or indirectly. The Barbers certainly were in an extreme situation, but they were not the only ones. I daresay that many Local Church experiences were extreme. This forum exists just because of the extremes.

Okay, you say again, that was just OKC and one of Witness Lee’s former top lieutenants. Well, I say, “How much evidence do you need?” I witnessed Benson Phillips and Ray Graver and their strong-arm tactics in Texas. They are today’s leaders.

So, when we look at the Barbers and attempt to discard their written experiences and observations as an extreme, remember that their extremes are what we all experienced. Their experiences don’t just frame the edges of some philosophical argument, their pain is our pain, unless we somehow intellectually divorce ourselves from the body of Christ.

I am very sure that we would have more of these same kinds of testimonies if the ones with the experiences knew where to come and weren’t too afraid or traumatized to share them. In fact, I recently heard of the abuse that another former Local Church elder regularly dished out to his family. I was genuinely shocked to hear about this person. That he would be abusive to his family was so out of character with his public persona.

You may think to yourself, “Well, it didn’t affect me where I was.” Oh, really? Did you ever attend a training? Did you ever submit to the so-called vision of Christ and the Church? Are you so sure that the haughty spirit of Witness Lee did not filter down to your assembly? Witness Lee taught us how to despise others. He also taught the leaders, by example, how to lord it over others. And, by example, he also taught, at least the males, how to be abusive.

Here is the bottom line for me: Local Church and Living Stream Ministry defenders want to sweep these things under the rug. They only want to be judged on their doctrines; they don’t want us to look at the fruit. Well, the Barbers are fruit; my son’s friends from OKC are fruit; and the unnamed children from other places are also fruit.

May those who have the courage to write be appreciated and prayed for. May their writings stand as a testimony against those who lord it over the flock in The Local Church. There came a day in history when former children of the Roman Catholic Church took a stand against the abuse they experienced from the all-powerful clergy. Eventually, even the pope felt it necessary to apologize.

aron

08-06-2008, 06:54 PM

So, when we look at the Barbers and attempt to discard their written experiences and observations as an extreme, remember that their extremes are what we all experienced. Their experiences don’t just frame the edges of some philosophical argument, their pain is our pain, unless we somehow intellectually divorce ourselves from the body of Christ.

I am very sure that we would have more of these same kinds of testimonies if the ones with the experiences knew where to come and weren’t too afraid or traumatized to share them.

Here is the bottom line for me: Local Church and Living Stream Ministry defenders want to sweep these things under the rug. They only want to be judged on their doctrines; they don’t want us to look at the fruit. Well, the Barbers are fruit; my son’s friends from OKC are fruit; and the unnamed children from other places are also fruit.

May those who have the courage to write be appreciated and prayed for. May their writings stand as a testimony against those who lord it over the flock in The Local Church. There came a day in history when former children of the Roman Catholic Church took a stand against the abuse they experienced from the all-powerful clergy. Eventually, even the pope felt it necessary to apologize.

I am grateful for all the testimonies I read on the BARM forum, and here. Please forgive me if I mischaracterized some of them. The Lord remembers all the sheep. He keeps the 99, and finds the lost one as well. May all those "lost sheep" find the shepherd. Thanks for sharing, John. Peace to you & to all those who find the strength to speak up.

Guest1

08-06-2008, 07:38 PM

sorry if it seems like i am following you brother Aaron:;).. not....to me
the Barber boys experience was normal.. for those of us that were in the church life 24/7 ..365 days a year .. for many many many years...their testimony is not shocking to me.. i am so so thankful they are liberated and out ...
some of you who were married or lived off 'campus' not in brothers or sisters houses may not realize how bad it was....

and Hope.. Don Rutledge .. i remember you as being a 'leading' one .. so you were not that much of a nobody..:D
God's Blessings....welcome and thanks for posting JOHN..

Thankful Jane

08-06-2008, 11:21 PM

Well, I just had a little time to catch up, so I read through this thread. I am sitting here feeling sick at my stomach after looking at the various power struggles and political maneuvers behind the scenes and thinking about the shamefulness of these ugly inner workings of the LC "leadership." I just have to put the word "leadership" in quotes. This was not leadership, it was egos gone wild in the name of God. It was a mockery of all that is good and holy, true and pure. It was men consumed with ambition whose practices were nothing less than taking the name of God in vain. I no longer wonder at what happened to so many of the sheep.

In a sense this isn't really news to me having heard so many pieces of it before, but there is just something about putting all these men together and visualizing them posturing in closed meetings at conferences that makes me feel like I’ve been punched in the gut. Seeing a hierarchical and functional organizational chart laid out before us and watching it morph as hostile takeovers proceed among those who were leading “God’s move on the earth today” is totally disgusting.

The Bible says truly that that which is done in secret will be shouted from the housetops. That must be why God let Al Gore invent the internet. Sorry, I just need to lighten my post a bit. It is weighing me way down.

I feel sad and ashamed and betrayed and angry all at the same time, as I think about the farce that was in operation behind closed doors. Who got hurt? It was the little ones--the simple, trusting, blind and naive sheep.

I saw a movie called The Inner Circle many years ago that was the story of what went on behind the scenes in Stalin's inner circle of power- hungry, fawning men. The story was later told by a small potato (or small pea) who was included as part of that inner circle by Stalin because he ran the projector for the movies Stalin watched. That projector operator survived to tell the story after Stalin was gone. Hope was clearly more than a projection operator, but he is here playing a film for us on this thread, one that every person who was ever in (or is now still in) the Local Churches needs to see.

I have heard others say that WL would rake people over the coals in verbal tirades, but hearing that you experienced this firsthand, Don, well I don't know what to say. How could he be allowed to do this? The whole mess is terrible, shameful, evil…what words fit this sickening picture? Phillip, not falling far from the tree, practiced this same kind of ranting at brothers and sisters. Jame's wife told me that at training times this kind of ranting is what Lee did to James that hurt him deeply and resulted in him coming home and doing the same thing to his family.

I personally spent many hours over a period of months in the 90s with Brent and his mother and with a few others trying to help him on his road to recovery as a human being. He had been to hell and back before finding Jesus as his savior. Together we prayed with him and for him. He was trying to forgive his Dad and find freedom from all that had happened to him, but his hurt and anger were very deep seated. (Some may find this hard to believe, but he sounded better in his posts on the Bereans than when we were spending time with him.)

He was baptized in our swimming pool, seeking to have a new start with the Lord. He was a terribly wounded soul. I wept for him. I kept thinking what a shame it was that such a brilliant (and I do mean brilliant) young man was not nurtured and loved and encouraged by his father to be all that God made him. The last I knew he was still struggling just to find some normalcy in life. Yes, James is directly responsible for what happened to his family, but we have to face the fact that the atmosphere in the LC was/is a greenhouse for abusers. In poor, poor Christianity James might have been helped to see the importance of his family.

I'd best stop. One more thought. I sat under James Barbers harsh SMOs type teaching for years. In one sense James might have been a bruised reed, but in another he was a reed bruiser.

Thinking about those closed door meetings brings some verses to mind:

Rev 18:2,4 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Thankful Jane

Nell

08-07-2008, 07:45 AM

Thanks for sharing this. I heard of his turnaround on ESPN, but they never mentioned "the miraculous saving power of Jesus Christ."

A comment I missed, which Hope shared with me, during the broadcast of the "Home Run Derby". A commentator stated, regarding Josh Hamilton, "it's been a bad day for athiests." I love that!

Nell

Hope

08-07-2008, 09:22 AM

Dear Thankful Jane,

I appreciate your post and your anger. The upcoming chapter will contrast the wonderful joy and fellowship we had amongst ourselves, that is the regular brothers and sisters along with good Bible teachings and great times of churches coming together with the back room manuevering. The greatest shock of my christian life came in January, 1974. My first national "urgent elders-co/workers" meeting called by WL.

I must lay out how very very positive my overall experience up until then had been and then came the step off the cliff. I will discuss the ugly power play going on right before my eyes and the totally unscriptural and anti-LC practice as we had known it up until then. After the 8:30 am - 12:30 first session, we broke for lunch. I could not eat but went for a four hour walk to pray and clear my mind. I could not return to the after lunch meeting. During that walk, I was very seriously considering to drop out and praying desperately what to do. I returned to the meeting hall and explained to a few of my closest brothers what was going on with me. George and a few others such as Don Looper calmed me down and I began to successfully "get out of my mind" and "be open."

I am encouraged that you have been able to minister to the Barber family. That whole case is so sad. May the Lord grant them a full recovery to health in everyway. They were surely victims of the LCS and of their father's care for it.

By the way, I was wondering where you have been. I am at work and must go but I did read your post on a break and felt to respond. Glad you are back.:)

In Christ Jesus there is hope for us all,

Hope, Don Rutledge

djohnson(XLCmember)

08-07-2008, 09:37 AM

Peter I don't know why but the posts I think you are referring to were moved to: http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vBulletin/showthread.php?t=227

Thankful Jane

08-07-2008, 11:48 AM

By the way, I was wondering where you have been. I am at work and must go but I did read your post on a break and felt to respond. Glad you are back.:)Thanks, Don. The sad truth about where I have been is that I have been involved with another situation (from LC damage) trying to help. I've also been doing some writing related to that. I also have a difficult situation in my extended family in process. The forum is taking a back burner for a while. I am trying to keep up with reading, but that is hard because I always want to respond.

Here's one more thought I have about all our mixed (love it/hate it)experience in the LC. It's kind of like Mommie Dearest. The adopted daughter of Ms. Crawford loved her mommie and wanted nothing more than to please her. Her mommie unfortunately also loved herself and wanted nothing more than her daughter to please her. This is the true story of a young child's growth to maturity as a human being and her journey of facing the truth of the parental abuse she had experienced under a sick self-centered mother. The daughter never knew when her mother's trigger would fire and horrible, irrational abuse would begin. No matter how she was treated, she always had to smile and call her mother, "Mommie Dearest." It is a heartbreaking story that she finally told as an adult, shocking all who heard it, I'm sure. I saw the movie. I assume there was a book.

I have heard and believe that the only way for abusive situations to end is for all secrecy to end. Secrecy is the lifeblood of dysfunctional situations. As long as everyone buys into the secrecy mode, abuse continues. No one wants ugly secrets to be told about their family for obvious reasons. In many ways we are all like those from an abusive family, only I think it is worse because it was God's family. It shouldn't have been this way, but it was.

I can only imagine what it must be like for you to tell these backroom things. It can't be easy to talk about a picture of which you were a part. It is humbling and exposing for all of us to see how susceptible we were/are to being deceived. I was totally there, a man-pleaser deluxe until God let me get smacked pretty hard. I didn't want to know the truth about my church family and leaders I loved. I didn't want to know that the depths of Satan could be found among God's people, but I had to know the truth for God to be able to set me free. Mostly I had to know the truth about myself and my deceitfully wicked heart.

I'm kind of up to here in this kind of thing right now, so sorry if my post sounds a little morose. I still have great hope in what God can do to heal us. I need only look as far as my own life to know His amazing ability to save.

Every family member gets help when the truth is finally known. People can start to get well then. God's forgiveness is great and powerful. I don't think we really ever begin to grasp or appreciate that until we see our tremendous need for it and come to the place that we ask for it. Having all things laid naked and open before Him has a way of bringing us to that place.

When all is said and done, every mouth will be stopped. None will be able to boast. "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God" will not be just a verse in the Bible. We will know it to the core. When we give all praise and glory to the Lamb in that day, we will be doing just that.

Thankful Jane

UntoHim

08-07-2008, 12:01 PM

Thanks dj, there should have been a link or redirect or something put up.

I thought those were really good posts, in fact good enough to have their own thread started. The problem is that they were kind of getting away from the main theme here:
"Observations and discussions regarding the beginnings of the Local Church in the USA/North America. Oldies but goodies from the "Elden Hall"/LA days strongly encouraged to contribute here!"

Now this does not mean that one has to be an oldie from the Elden Hall/LA days to post, it's just that it seems to me that this era of the Local Church in America is quite pivotal and deserves it's own board (main theme) within the forum. I thought that these posts would take us in a different (albeit important) direction.

This being said, if Peter or anyone else feels strongly that these posts belong here on this board (if you have time try to say why), please PM Admin. It won't take much to convince, trust me. I would prefer to do this through the PM system so that the individual boards remain as clutter free as possible.

AndPeter

08-07-2008, 12:27 PM

Dear YPO534,

...

Every family member gets help when the truth is finally known. People can start to get well then. God's forgiveness is great and powerful. I don't think we really ever begin to grasp or appreciate that until we see our tremendous need for it and come to the place that we ask for it. Having all things laid naked and open before Him has a way of bringing us to that place.

When all is said and done, every mouth will be stopped. None will be able to boast. "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God" will not be just a verse in the Bible. We will know it to the core. When we give all praise and glory to the Lamb in that day, we will be doing just that.

Thankful Jane

I cannot remember where it is or the exact quote so let me paraphrase what I remember of some speaking by brother Nee.

Essentially man tries to hide unsightly things so that the 'glory' of the church is preserved.

God exposes them so that she can be truly glorious.

Steve's comments.

The NT has too many examples of God not hiding things. When the ugly things are exposed and eradicated then the true beauty of God's handiwork will be seen for the whole universe to appreciate.

Steve