What Now?

[PeterG]

Hello everyone,
nice to be here. :) I can only talk for Germany, where I come from. Please excuse my translator-English. I certainly don't want to deny individual good fruits, but on the whole the way of the Local Churches has been a disaster. The once so many small hopeful groups have disappeared or their original focus has now been swept under the carpet. Or in some places, several “local churches” have competed with each other. And I also believe those who say that Witness Lee's last message was imbued with a deep sense of remorse that he had seen the great mistakes that had been made.

The right starting point
Hardly any thinking Christian would deny that the young Watchman Nee was given a particularly profound insight by God. A realization that Christians at the time of the Bible still took for granted: that God's church simply encompasses all believers in a particular place.

The glorious goal
And it’s also hard to deny that after the many good achievements in the wake of the Reformation, if what Watchman Nee was given were also practiced now, we could actually rejoice in something like the recovery of the biblical ecclesia.

The fundamental error
There is probably this simple, very logical reason why things turned out differently: When believers receive local knowledge and realize that denominations are wrong, they must not become a denomination themselves. They must not become a “church” either.

The narrower path
They must be proclaimers of a prophetic word to the denominations. Their task is to explain in love, clarity and patience how God envisions his church. They must open people’s eyes and guide the sheep correctly, because 99% think that denominations are completely normal and okay.

And most importantly, the proclaimers must not anticipate the thing that is being proclaimed. Instead, they must stand in the gap - just like the prophets of the Old Testament once did. Their task is to re-explain the will of God by calling the church to repentance and conversion.

Two questions may arise
1. Isn't a group of such automatically a denomination? Or at least must be perceived as such? No, this does not necessarily have to happen if the identity as a group serving the church is unmistakably emphasized.

2. Doesn’t such a group again create the appearance of exclusivity? In part. Because it bears the dignity of those who deliver God's Word to the people of God. But that is their only “exclusivity”. It will be hard for her, she will face resistance. And because it is not a church, it does not possess the inner riches that God has reserved for his ekklesia. She is just a little, serving flock. A necessary one.

Grace and blessings
Peter G

[JorgeP]

Greetings Brother Peter. Do you know Brother Daniel Ofoma from Berlin? I spent a year in Berlin during the lockdown from 2019 to 2020 and I spent a year congregating with the recovery ministry in Berlin. I can give you testimony of my experience there. Basically it was an immigrant group of Asian and American brothers, there were practically no native German brothers. So you can understand the failure of the group regarding the inclusiveness of the native German brothers. In fact, the German brothers do not like to meet in an Asian or American atmosphere, because they are simply German and are in Germany and that is common sense. I think that the brothers who came to Europe, in this case to Germany, did not take seriously the issue of the national culture and lifestyle that Christians have in their countries.

I was able to witness the tremendous Asian and American cultural influence on the church life in Berlin, and really the brothers were committed to the recovery ministry and not to the Body of Christ in the city. As it usually happens, they look for Christians from other congregations to leave the ministries in which they are and they enter the recovery ministry. At no time did I have the experience of having communion with brothers outside the recovery ministry because there was no opportunity for multi-ministerial fraternal communion. Another thing that I was able to witness is the phenomenon that was occurring with the supposed conversions of the Arabs who were entering Germany and who were being baptized. It was simply a fraud. Many false converts were baptized to have access to social assistance, remembering that Germany is a culturally Christian country, and they said that they were present at the conversion of many Arabs to the Christian faith, but in practice in the meetings I only saw 1 or 2 at most.

In fact, I shared an apartment with one of the native German brothers and when I was leaving there, the opportunity to share an apartment with a brother of Arab background. I was also there at the time when a million tracts were printed and sent to every home in Berlin, and there was almost no fruit from it. If the brothers in the recovery ministry would abandon this divisive attitude and team up with the brothers in other ministries in Berlin, the city would be impacted by the gospel. Berlin is the darkest spiritual city I have ever visited, the spiritual tension on the street is really uncomfortable. The spiritual situation in Berlin is quite dark, it is really a shame that almost no one even preaches the gospel on the street anymore and that shows the condition of the churches there.

[PeterG]

Hello JorgeP,
I come from southern Germany. And what you describe is in line with my experiences in Munich. A small, isolated Asian group that didn't really know what tradition they were in, what they wanted to believe and how or if to interact with natives. There was a much larger proportion of Germans in Stuttgart, but it seemed to me that they had become embarrassed by the original tradition. They had grown tired of the conflicts. I also note this on the LC websites in America. They are assimilating more and more into the evangelical mainstream. And as I wrote above: They simply miss an alternative and promising spiritual strategy.

[ThankfulForever777]

If the brothers in the recovery ministry would abandon this divisive attitude and team up with the brothers in other ministries in Berlin, the city would be impacted by the gospel.

In the Lord’s Recovery, there is a belief that Christians and ministries outside their circle are considered unclean. I once asked a brother from the Local Church about the response to a natural disaster in my city, where various churches and denominations came together for relief efforts, but the Local Church did not participate. I questioned why the saints in the Recovery couldn't unite with outside Christians for such a practical cause that doesn’t even involve spiritual or doctrinal matters.

He responded with an elitist attitude, suggesting that when denominations occasionally come together to help others, it is merely a reflection of their moral and natural acts, unrelated to the true oneness of the Body of Christ. He went on to explain that the Lord’s Recovery practices oneness in the divine life and nature, and not in human moral standards.

This exchange showed me how disillusioned and narrow-minded their views can be. They seem only willing to be one with other Christians who fully accept the teachings of Witness Lee and their specific practices. This attitude is contrary to the inclusivity and openness that they claim to represent.

[PeterG]

Meanwhile I have read a lot here and was often shocked. But I would like to encourage everyone who has had a bad experience with the idea of "Lord's Recovery" to rethink about what it was actually about in the beginning and would ask if you really want to give it up.

If, in a Location full of unsaved people, some come to faith through the gospel: Then God does not want them to split into individual denominations, but that a visible multitude is living for his glory. He is looking for them to testify to their faith by their unity and thus also become light and salt for the world.

Was there ever anything wrong with this? It is what Christians have always known and what was WN's mission. Because of his spiritual clarity and his background he was predestined not to shy away from the practical consequences. This way he inspired generations of believers. And he was also wise and far-sighted. That is why he always emphasized how careful we have to be in founding a new “church”. That we must not add to the confusion.

I'm not nearly as familiar with WL as I am with WN. But apparently Lee acted far more carelessly, which led exactly to what his teacher wanted to prevent. But what is the consequence for us today?? To give up the good goal and finally accept church confusion? Or do we still have the responsibility to do the right thing?

[Nell]

Meanwhile I have read a lot here and was often shocked. But I would like to encourage everyone who has had a bad experience with the idea of "Lord's Recovery" to rethink about what it was actually about in the beginning and would ask if you really want to give it up.

If, in a Location full of unsaved people, some come to faith through the gospel: Then God does not want them to split into individual denominations, but that a visible multitude is living for his glory. He is looking for them to testify to their faith by their unity and thus also become light and salt for the world.

Was there ever anything wrong with this? It is what Christians have always known and what was WN's mission. Because of his spiritual clarity and his background he was predestined not to shy away from the practical consequences. This way he inspired generations of believers. And he was also wise and far-sighted. That is why he always emphasized how careful we have to be in founding a new “church”. That we must not add to the confusion.

I'm not nearly as familiar with WL as I am with WN. But apparently Lee acted far more carelessly, which led exactly to what his teacher wanted to prevent. But what is the consequence for us today?? To give up the good goal and finally accept church confusion? Or do we still have the responsibility to do the right thing?


From The Normal Christian Worker, Watchman Nee Emphasis added.

Absolute loyalty to the Truth is a matter that must have priority in the life of every Christian worker. It is possible, and indeed it not infrequently happens, that a worker modifies the Truth because he is influenced by men, or by circumstances, or by his own desires. The truth is absolute, and it demands undeviating loyalty of all men under all circumstances. All we possess we can sacrifice if need be, but the Truth we dare not sacrifice. We must never seek to bend it to our purpose, but must always bow to it.

PeterG,
The Lord Himself has led many of us out of the Local Church of Witness Lee. Why? Maybe these words from Watchman Nee should be considered before "rethinking" what God has called us to do. You're asking us to compromise our loyalty to the Truth we've seen from the Holy Spirit.


Nell

[PeterG]

Hi Nell,
I agree to that quote 100 percent. Because I am talking about Watchman Nee, not the work of Wtness Lee! I am talking about the truth that I have tried to express above. And to which I want to remain loyal. Has the spirit shown you a better one?

[ThankfulForever777]

Meanwhile I have read a lot here and was often shocked. But I would like to encourage everyone who has had a bad experience with the idea of "Lord's Recovery" to rethink about what it was actually about in the beginning and would ask if you really want to give it up.

If, in a Location full of unsaved people, some come to faith through the gospel: Then God does not want them to split into individual denominations, but that a visible multitude is living for his glory. He is looking for them to testify to their faith by their unity and thus also become light and salt for the world.

Was there ever anything wrong with this? It is what Christians have always known and what was WN's mission. Because of his spiritual clarity and his background he was predestined not to shy away from the practical consequences. This way he inspired generations of believers. And he was also wise and far-sighted. That is why he always emphasized how careful we have to be in founding a new “church”. That we must not add to the confusion.

I'm not nearly as familiar with WL as I am with WN. But apparently Lee acted far more carelessly, which led exactly to what his teacher wanted to prevent. But what is the consequence for us today?? To give up the good goal and finally accept church confusion? Or do we still have the responsibility to do the right thing?

Hi PeterG,

Personally, I have come to see denominations not just in a negative light, but also in a positive way. The truth is, all churches—whether they call themselves "non-denominational," independent, house churches, or even groups like the Lord's Recovery "local churches"—are inevitably denominations.

According to the dictionary, a "Christian denomination" is defined as: "A distinct group within Christianity that shares common beliefs, practices, and organizational structures, but differs from other groups in theological interpretations or worship styles."
By this definition, any Christian group, whether large or small, old or new, fits the bill.

What is positive about denominations? For example, they serve an important role in the Body of Christ by reflecting the diversity within God's people—whether in worship style, emphasis, or reach. They allow the gospel to reach a wider range of individuals across different communities, social backgrounds, age groups, and cultures. Through this diversity, we can grow in love and service toward one another, learning to embrace unity despite our differences. They also help believers to distinguish true churches and Scriptural teachings from false churches and heretical teachings.

Since leaving the Lord's Recovery, I’ve shifted my focus from dogma and outward practices, like the "local ground of the church," to God’s love, good fruit, and humility.

In my research on Christian cults, I have noticed a common thread: they all claim to be the only true church. While they reach this conclusion through different doctrines or logic, the result is the same—an attitude of pride, elitism, and judgment toward other Christian groups, while fostering fear, shame, and inadequacy in their own members.

Consider groups like the Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Exclusive Brethren, William Branham’s followers, the Moonies, and the Local Church of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee and alike. They all express anti-denominational stance and claim to represent the true unity of the church. In fact, their behaviour demonstrates that they are a cultish denomination and a false church that does not follow the teachings of Christ.

I believe God is less concerned with outward labels and practices and more focused on what’s happening inside of our hearts. When it comes to meeting together, I don’t think God cares whether we identify as Baptist, Pentecostal, Non-denominational, or meet in a home. What matters to Him most is whether we love and respect all children of God and considering others better than ourselves, or if we are caught up in pride and strife.

[Nell]

Hi Nell,
I agree to that quote 100 percent. Because I am talking about Watchman Nee, not the work of Wtness Lee! I am talking about the truth that I have tried to express above. And to which I want to remain loyal. Has the spirit shown you a better one?

There is one Truth.

[PeterG]

There is one Truth.

Amen. Now, what is the one truth about division? And how should we think about denominations from the Word of God? Are they okay or aren’t they?

[PeterG]

Hi ThankfulForever777

I agree. Denminations are a wonderful thing. They can do so many different, interesting things. But why do they have to consider themselves a church? The church is supposed to be characterized by “God's love, good fruits and humility”. Just like you said.

But if that is so - how can there be divisions? Or how can we ignore them? Diversity is completely normal on this planet, except in a totalitarian system. And diversity should also prevail in the church. “IN” the church! Diversity ends where we have division.

Isn’t the special Christian thing that Christians do not separate over differences of opinion – because they remain humble and look to the cross? And isn’t that the testimony the planet is looking for?

[Nell]

Richard Halverson, former chaplain of the US Senate:
“In the beginning the church was a fellowship of men and women centering on the living Christ. Then the church moved to Greece, where it became a philosophy. Then it moved to Rome, where it became an institution. Next, it moved to Europe, where it became a culture. And, finally, it moved to America, where it became an enterprise.” (https://www.facebook.com/groups/136853737786/?multi_permalinks=10161009947567787%2C101610086204 77787%2C10161005943272787&notif_id=1727029399506855&notif_t=group_highlights&ref=notif)

Witness Lee made his Local Church into his personal business.

Jesus said “I will build my church.” I think we should get out of his way and let him do it.

Nell

[PeterG]

Richard Halverson, former chaplain of the US Senate:
“In the beginning the church was a fellowship of men and women centering on the living Christ. Then the church moved to Greece, where it became a philosophy. Then it moved to Rome, where it became an institution. Next, it moved to Europe, where it became a culture. And, finally, it moved to America, where it became an enterprise.” (https://www.facebook.com/groups/136853737786/?multi_permalinks=10161009947567787%2C101610086204 77787%2C10161005943272787&notif_id=1727029399506855&notif_t=group_highlights&ref=notif)

Witness Lee made his Local Church into his personal business.

Jesus said “I will build my church.” I think we should get out of his way and let him do it.

Nell

Hm, I'm wondering if I might have a small “advantage”. I have no LC trauma because I was never a member of a “local church”. I read Watchman Nee as a young Christian in my hometown of Karlsruhe and was deeply impressed by his view of denominations. When I was invited to an LC meeting soon after, it was obvious to me that they themselves were following the path of a denomination, the very way that, as Watchman Nee rightly saw it, contradicts the will of God. (By the way, and what Nee didn't see enough: it contradicts less because of “local ground” or anything like that, but because it contradicts the gospel! It contradicts the practice of God's love and reconciliation.)

So I understand when you now say: please no more human building. Let's let Jesus do it alone. I see it the same way. I think the only thing we need to “do” is to stop doing what is of the flesh, including “selfish ambition, dissensions, factions” (Gal. 5:20). As with all other sins, we must not close our eyes to them. Then the Spirit will have free rein.

[PeterG]

Apparently there is very little interest in this forum in the issues that moved Watchman Nee and that are objectively an important aspect of church history. Little interest in how God gets back his original and what part of that is up to us. The title “Local Church Discussions” is misleading. Too bad...

[UntoHim]

PeterG,

Sorry to hear of your disappointment. It's ok to be disappointed, but don't be discouraged my dear friend! I think you have some valuable things to contribute to our little forum, for yours is a rather unique perspective, and I think you need to give us all a little time to absorb the things you have posted.

I think you may want to take a little time and read over a good number of the established threads, and this might give you a little better idea of where so many of us former Local Church members are coming from. You see, many of us have a unique perspective on the life and ministry of Watchman Nee, and this perspective does not come merely from reading the things that he has written - many of us spent decades in the Local Church of Witness Lee movement, which is a direct "descendent" of the Local Churches of "The Little Flock" movement of Watchman Nee in Mainland China. Many of us experienced first hand the direct fruit of Nee's ministry. Some of this fruit was positive - - much of it was very negative.

Watchman Nee has been gone for well over 50 years (nearly 75 if you count from the time he was imprisoned) Witness Lee was arguable his hand-picked successor, and it is Lee's Local Church/Living Stream Ministry that most of us lived for, served under and eventually left. The Local Churches that were led by Watchman Nee in the earlier part of the 20th century in China are , for better or for worse, a whole world apart from what we experienced.

All this being said, I think all the many of the things you posted in your first post are very much on topic for our forum. Give us a little time to catch up to you!
~

[PeterG]

UntoHim: okay! :lurk5:

[Recovering]

Hi ThankfulForever777

I agree. Denminations are a wonderful thing. They can do so many different, interesting things. But why do they have to consider themselves a church? The church is supposed to be characterized by “God's love, good fruits and humility”. Just like you said.

But if that is so - how can there be divisions? Or how can we ignore them? Diversity is completely normal on this planet, except in a totalitarian system. And diversity should also prevail in the church. “IN” the church! Diversity ends where we have division.

Isn’t the special Christian thing that Christians do not separate over differences of opinion – because they remain humble and look to the cross? And isn’t that the testimony the planet is looking for?


PeterG My parents met saints from the Local Church when I was only a few months old. Their attraction to the group was natural given their experiences in a denomination that failed to form them spiritually in their (especially my father's) youth and then squelched their fervor for the gospel after they experienced a dynamic salvation in college. That was the mid-70's, and the corner of Christianity they came from was sleepy, and here was something new, fresh, and living, and people were excited to practice what they understood to be the genuine oneness. Witness Lee and many other groups (like Vinyard) rode the wave of the Jesus Revolution. I think there was a real move of the Holy Spirit in those days. My memories of life in the Local Church as a child are pretty positive. I learned to love the Bible, love God, and love others.

But what I think happened (and continues to happen, especially in non-denominational groups) is that there was a "baby" thrown out with the "bath water" (Das Kind mit dem Bade ausschütten), which was the system of accountability that a denomination can/should provide. The leaders of these movements felt the Lord was with them, and He would protect them and their movement. When Witness Lee has uncovered "new light", he becomes "God's Oracle", or at least his ministry supposedly has the oracle, and now he's accountable to no one but God. In Witness Lee's ministry (who purported to be 100% one with Watchman Nee and to continue his ministry), hierarchy is seen as an evil that suppresses the "function" of the members, concern about right and wrong are seen only through the lens of hypocrites who practice the letter of the law and ignore the spirit of it. Denominations are seen only as divisive, worldly, degraded; anything to do with the denominational system is proclaimed to be mixture and evil leaven that can contaminate the whole lump. Don't touch it. Don't even pretend to touch it. And pretty soon you have a situation where accountability, protections, and 100s of years of lessons learned are all ignored because "we're the unique vessel to receive God's blessing" because we're standing on the "ground of oneness".

I understand from friends who experienced it that a similar trajectory has been traced by many groups with roots in the Jesus Revolution of the 60s and 70s. And listen to "The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill" for a more-recent example.

My point is it is wrong to equate denominations with division. For sure that can happen, but to be in a denomination is not necessarily divisive. In the years since I left TLR, I have become firmly convinced that the oneness that Jesus prayed for in John 17 is a matter of the heart of the members of the congregation and is influenced pretty strongly by their local leadership. I have seen leadership of my church and others reach out to join hands with other congregations in service, fellowship, preaching, teaching, and sharing of resources. I have heard quite a bit of speaking about the oneness of the Body of Christ (in the sense of the universal church) in my church (congregation) and others. (One of the problems in talking about this is that we use the same term "church" to refer both to our local congregation, with its system of administration, ministry focus, and particular people, and the universal Body of Christ.)

The ministry of Nee/Lee asserts that meeting with a denomination means "taking another name" which means "dividing the body of Christ." I understand why they asserted that, but I think it's wrong and has not been borne out in my experience. It is possible to experience the oneness of the Body of Christ and uphold the testimony of that oneness in a denomination, and chances are also good that in a denomination, systems of accountability are in place to make sure that abuse is minimized and is brought to light and dealt with when it occurs and that church life does not develop into a cult of personality around a particular individual. This is by no means a claim that such problems do not exist in denominations; but at least they are exposed and dealt with, not covered up "for the sake of the testimony".


But set yourself up in opposition to denominations and anyone meeting "in division" and refuse to accept help from them, don't put the systems in place to protect against fallen humanity because that's hierarchy :eek: and might be organization :eek:, and anyway the Lord will protect you because you're His unique testimony of oneness on the earth -- do those things, then don't be surprised when stories of abuse start to surface 40, 50, 60 years later.


This has been the experience of many here in this forum, and I hope it starts to explain our reticence to affirm Watchman Nee's vision of the local church.

[PeterG]

Hi Recovering,

thank you very much for your detailed answer. Yes, I'm beginning to understand the reticence. Certainly, a healthy denomination with functioning accountability and self-control is better than a sectarian cult. However, the standard has to be how Paul describes the church: That it should contain the fullness of God and represent Christ.

Can a denomination achieve this? I grew up in a good one (Baptists). It practiced everything you describe: reaching out to join hands with other congregations in service, fellowship, preaching, teaching, and sharing of resources. But I still believe today that the nowadays situation is not okay. My brother lives in Abbotsford/Canada. He recently wrote me that they have about 200 churches there. If I move to Abbotsford too, which one should I join? Of course I could ask my brother. But then what is the criterion? Should I endup choosing one that has the same views on everything as me? How will the Lord correct my errors?

[Recovering]

Hi Recovering, If I move to Abbotsford too, which one should I join? Of course I could ask my brother. But then what is the criterion? Should I endup choosing one that has the same views on everything as me? How will the Lord correct my errors?

I would recommend praying to the Lord and seeing where He places you then committing to be built up with whomever you find there. Even if it checks every box on your list, the Lord will have people there to perfect you and correct your errors. If you join people in worshiping the Lord and in service, it’s inevitable that “iron will sharpen iron.”

There’s a great book on this subject by Brett McCracken called “Uncomfortable”. I highly recommend it.

[ThankfulForever777]

My brother lives in Abbotsford/Canada. He recently wrote me that they have about 200 churches there. If I move to Abbotsford too, which one should I join? Of course I could ask my brother. But then what is the criterion? Should I endup choosing one that has the same views on everything as me? How will the Lord correct my errors?

I also grew up in a Baptist church but, during my teenage years, I was deceived by the enemy and joined the Lord’s Recovery. First of all, I rejoice that there are over 200 churches in Abbotsford, as long as they are God-fearing and Scripture-based. It’s a true blessing to have such a variety of churches.

I’ve heard that when 2-5% of the general population are strong, genuine believers, the positive impact on a city and society is profound, often restraining many forms of evil.

Living in the so-called Bible Belt of the USA, I can attest that movements like the Lord’s Recovery and other cults have a weaker influence here due to the presence of many healthy churches and strong Christian families. I know Witness Lee criticized this region, claiming that "religion" kept people from joining his local church, but I now see that was untrue.

When it comes to choosing a church, it’s important to do your own research to find the best fit for you. It’s similar to making other significant decisions in life—before choosing a restaurant, doctor, or university, you check reviews and do research. How much more crucial is it to ensure the spiritual well-being of your family by carefully selecting the church where you’ll serve and spend time? Your family’s spiritual safety should not be at risk.

Witness Lee spoke often about the degradation of churches, but I believe he misinterpreted the issue. He pointed out problems and claimed the only solution was to join his church and submit to his teachings. He dismissed all other denominations as wrong while labeling his own as "non-denominational" or simply the "local church." However, the Bible does not teach that there is a perfect or superior church. Instead, Scripture warns us that every church will have challenges, and we are called to exercise discernment with a sober mind.

[PeterG]

Ok, I realize that promoting the idea of ​​“one town, one church” in this forum could get complicated... :xx:

[InconvenientRuth]

Hi PeterG!
Thanks for posting. My parents were missionaries in Haiti and Jamaica and were given a book by Watchman Nee, and left "Christianity" to find who meets according to W. Nee's writing (in The Normal Christian Church Life). However, sadly degradation and division can creep in anywhere, in any group, who leaves the solid basis of the whole Word of God. Such as how to deal with sins and offenses in the church. Degradation and division also can creep in with the love and mishandling of money, and the lack of accountability of leaders.

These things and more made it impossible to keep meeting with believers who'd claimed "the ground of oneness" in my city. But I am meeting with precious believers again, finally, who practice God's Word but don't overstress secondary doctrines, authority of leaders, etc. They are authentic, welcoming, and faithful to God's Word.

I sense more oneness with ALL believers having left people who believe they are the ONLY scriptural, overcoming group of believers, while harboring countless shameful deeds of leadership to maintain their image....

Love the fellowship here! Just joined recently, too.

[InconvenientRuth]

It is refreshing to read your posts, @PeterG. You are with fellow seeking ones in this forum. Were it not for an abusive marriage to a leading one in the LC, I'd still likely be very devoutly following, because I love God's Word, and don't want any divisions, etc. But the abuse started to make further abuses, of myself and of others, more and more clear to me, which eventually forced me to find fellowship with "other" believers. I like to see all of us as ONE, and sin and Satan and other issues as the divisive factors - that were destroyed on the cross. But living in oneness requires we all stay in the light, confessing our sins, forgiving, and enjoying all of the riches of Christ in ALL the believers.
Wilkommen! Meine Mutter ist eine Deutcherin (adopted to the U.S. after WWII). :)

[PeterG]

Hi Ruth,

so nice to hear you sound so positive. Your mother is German, cool!

I think it's as you say: abuse and all other sins can creep into ANY group of people, including any Christian group. And it happens wherever we look... I used to enjoy visiting a Catholic community from time to time. They also had a “guru,” a very charismatic guy, people adored and to whom they made pilgrimages from all over the country. A few years ago it came out that he regularly sexually abused his young deciples. I was NOT surprised.

But that's why I want to separate what God showed the young Watchman Nee and which I believe should be so important to christianity – on the one hand. And on the other, how the “local churches” worked out the message, which is a shame and tragedy. But God has “long breath,” as we Germans say. He finds and goes new ways.

“The riches of Christ in ALL the believers”. Amen! - please in a very concrete way in the place/location, where we live, impressing Non-believers. No division and no "mishmash" (is that english?) of world and church. I’m a dreamer...

[PeterG]

ThankfulForever777,

thank you for your thorough answer, which I haven't gone into enough yet. But may I ask at this point:

First of all, I rejoice that there are over 200 churches in Abbotsford, as long as they are God-fearing and Scripture-based. It’s a true blessing to have such a variety of churches.
I’ve heard that when 2-5% of the general population are strong, genuine believers, the positive impact on a city and society is profound, often restraining many forms of evil.

How would you - if this doesn't get too political - interpret this statement in relation to the current overall situation in the USA? I only see things from afar but I would expect that a particularly large proportion of the american population are God-fearing, Bible-oriented Christians - probably the largest number worldwide. But it also looks to me as if there is more and more hatred and irreconcilability shaping society. How do you rate that?

[Unregistered]

Hey PeterG,

Churches in America are doing ok, it's impacted by alot of external factors; internet, politics, etc. But the situation can be a lot better in some congregations than others. Its not a systematic issue, it really depends on who is leading the flock you meet with.

One thing is forsure, the situation is a lot worse in the LCs right now. Don't even ask, I was part of the inner group with a person who's an information desk. It's bad, from the top levels to the bottom. The only people having fun are the college students getting love bombed, and the saints love bombing them.

If God thought the ground of oneness was so important, Jesus and Paul would have explicitly stated some of these things as commandments. If genuine oneness if based on the ground, the the spirit is despised.

[PeterG]

Unregistered,

thank you for the information! Although my question was: why is the country so divided today when there are so many good churches?

Yes, I am also always very skeptical when there is more concern for the pretty and strong young people than for the old, weak and sick.

I think that if the "ground" of our unity, as well as for all other Christian qualities, is Christ, then everything is right again. As you say: it is the Spirit who has to carry out spiritual things, if we humans intervene, problems arise.

But the reverse is also true: if our cohesion is no better than in any worldly organization, then we obviously lack the spirit. As Jesus said: „If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do so.”