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Humble Bricklayer
04-04-2024, 06:20 PM
Hi everyone,

I was in one of the churches under Titus Chu. Later the church fell over on to the Blended Brother side. I was new and really did not grasp the gravity of what was happening. Actually, it was all a big joke to me because the infighting was mainly amongst the leading brothers and I thought it would all just blow over. I was just simply 'enjoying the Triune God'.

Even when we were 'forced' to watch the Whistler Convention, we were cracking jokes and laughing at some of the speakers (actually I didn't crack any jokes myself, but I remember one particular sister thought it was all really funny). I also remember after watching that stuff I felt like I'd been poisoned. This feeling crept in afterwards. The usual feeling of 'enjoyment' was absent. I wasn't the only one who felt this way. It was later explained that the negative feeling was just a sign of a successful inoculation. It would wear off, we were told. I guess it did.

I was initially attracted to the 'church life' because of what appeared to be the depth of the teachings. By then I was fed up to the back-teeth with Pentecostalism. Soo wishy-washy. Soo focused on worldly things. I'd had enough. I had already been exposed to Watchman Nee years before. And nothing I heard out of the Pentecostal pulpit even came within a mile to approaching his depth of understanding of the Scriptures.

Then along came Titus Chu's lieutenants. I had never heard of Witness Lee. His writings and Titus Chu's writings were presented as one and the same thing. This was before the One Publication Proclamation. They seemed to be like solid meat compared to the diet of diluted milk out of Pentecostalism. The brothers, I can only say were gifted speakers and teachers. John Myer was especially impressive. The difference between him and the other brothers was like watching the same show, once, in black and white, and then later, in color.

They helped me begin to penetrate what I found to be Witness Lee's opaque and sometimes incomprehensible doctrines. Watchman Nee, I had found to be far more lucid. We were told that we needed to 'exercise our spirits' and to learn the 'divine and mystical language' that had come down from heaven and been handed to Witness Lee. It was explained that no other language had the capacity to contain the 'high truths' and complicated concepts that had been revealed to Witness Lee (it sounded like English to me). By the way, John never said those kind of things. And he never seemed to have a narrow opinion about things that the LC is famous for having narrow opinions about.

One thing, though, always bothered me about the 'church life' right from day One. But I suppressed it because I had no evidence to the contrary. I just found it incredible that someone like Witness Lee had actually walked this earth. He was so squeaky, squeeeeeeaky clean...cleaner than a nun's undies! I mean was it possible, I would often ask myself. I heard NOT ONE SINGLE THING that would constitute a mark, a spot, or even the faintest of smudges, against this man's name. He had never even ever raised his voice in exasperation, let alone anger, as far as I could tell. I'm cynical by nature and this stretched my incredulity in no small measure. But I buried it.

I can tell you with a 101% confidence that almost none of the saints I was with would believe for a second even one sentence of what has been uncovered and revealed on this forum. And those who remain would not believe two sentences.

The final straw came one day when I was in a 'meeting'. We had 'exercised our spirits', we had 'called on the name of the Lord five times, and we were 'eating' (we were eating Christ) taking a deep dive into the glorious riches of the Ministry. And then the sister (the one who makes fun of, and loves laughing at the awkward saints on the LSM videos) began parroting the 'divine and mystical language' and sputtering and spewing forth all the bombastic terms she could muster: 'processed', 'compounded', 'sevenfold-intensified', 'all-intensive', 'crystallized', 'all-inclusive', 'distilled', 'titrated', 'organic', 'automated', 'unmechanized', et cetera, et cetera...I had heard all this a million times before.

But then after making all these almost mindless declarations, she suddenly appeared to become more sober, and to begin to pray, and to pray in a more composed fashion. She began to thank the Lord for his 'light', his 'life', his 'love', his 'mercy', his 'grace', his 'righteousness', his 'knowledge' etc. She had grasped my attention. These terms seemed to me to be more in harmony with the Bible.

And then to my horror I realized that I had extremely little understanding of what they truly meant. Actually, this had been building up for some time over the years, but it was thrown into sharp focus that evening as she uttered the words. I mean what does 'Light' really mean? And what does 'Righteousness' really mean? I had no idea. And what is 'Grace' anyway? I hated the Pentecostal definition: 'unmerited favour', nothing more than a dictionary definition of the word which misses by a farmer's mile the deeper meaning of the kind of grace that is unfolded in the Bible. The LSM definition was no more enlightening: "grace is the enjoyment of the Triune God". What does that mean?

I had convinced myself that I knew the meaning of these concepts. And beyond a simple and superficial academic appreciation of them, I ABSOLUTELY DID NOT. This was driven rudely home that evening in that moment.

In exasperation I decided I would ask the sister what these things meant she was thanking the Lord for. As soon as she stopped praying I asked her pointedly what Light meant, and what Righteousness meant. She was caught off guard. She had just been mouthing a prayer shooting off words that made her look 'constituted' in front off the saints, and this kind of direct questioning was unexpected. You should have seen her. Fumbling for words to answer me. She looked exactly like a politician who has been publicly blindsided by a reporter asking what he was doing with a prostitute at "that hotel downtown at 3 a.m. last night".

I was actually quite surprised that she completely failed to answer me. Without diving into the Recovery Version to find some technical definition in the footnotes she was at a total loss.

That's when I realized I had become a part of a 'kingdom of words', and the "kingdom of God is NOT in Word, but in Power" (1 Corinthians 4: 20).

And that's when my journey out of there began. Nonetheless, they are still my brothers and sisters, and so I often wonder and question how wise turning my back on them really was. I eventually got the answers to my questions. But at what price? I don't seem to have arrived anywhere.

Is Christ divided? (1 Corinthians 1: 13)


That's it, folks.

Bible-believer
04-04-2024, 11:02 PM
Psa 62:9

Surely men of low degree are vanity, and men of high degree are a lie: to be laid in the balance, they are altogether lighter than vanity.

Psa 94:11
The LORD knoweth the thoughts of man, that they are vanity.

Ecc 1:2

Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity.


These verses come up while reading your post. I stopped listening to those mumble jumble of LR, no matter whose version long ago.

“A FALSE BALANCE IS ABOMINATION TO THE LORD.” Prob.11:1

aron
04-06-2024, 03:04 PM
I had already been exposed to Watchman Nee years before. And nothing I heard out of the Pentecostal pulpit even came within a mile to approaching his depth of understanding of the Scriptures..Hi HB, you might read more on Jessie Penn-Lewis, whom WN cribbed enthusiastically from, and who was probably deeply influenced by being a youth leader in Freemasonry. WN was an enthusiastic teen when he ignored MEB's warnings and began drinking deeply from her fountain. And then he published The Spiritual Man a few short years later. And so the die was cast. I was once a huge fan of WN. (Perhaps your view changed over time, it doesn't say here.)

One thing always bothered me about the 'church life' right from day One. But I suppressed it because I had no evidence to the contrary. I just found it incredible that someone like Witness Lee had actually walked this earth. He was so squeaky, squeeeeeeaky clean...cleaner than a nun's undies! I mean was it possible, I would often ask myself. I heard NOT ONE SINGLE THING that would constitute a mark, a spot, or even the faintest of smudges, against this man's name. He had never even ever raised his voice in exasperation, let alone anger, as far as I could tell. I'm cynical by nature and this stretched my incredulity in no small measure. But I buried it. Same here. I was in the pre-internet age, and WL ran the only printing press in town, literally. I remember reading his book "Fermentation of the Present Rebellion" and being shocked at how horrid his tone suddenly became. Like I was seeing the other side of Lee. But I buried it, too.

I asked the sister what these things meant she was thanking the Lord for. As soon as she stopped praying I asked her pointedly what Light meant, and what Righteousness meant. She was caught off guard. She had just been mouthing a prayer shooting off words that made her look 'constituted' in front off the saints, and this kind of direct questioning was unexpected. You should have seen her. Fumbling for words to answer me.... I was actually quite surprised that she completely failed to answer me. Without diving into the Recovery Version to find some technical definition in the footnotes she was at a total loss.

That's when I realized I had become a part of a 'kingdom of words', and the "kingdom of God is NOT in Word, but in Power" (1 Corinthians 4: 20).

And that's when my journey out of there began. Nonetheless, they are still my brothers and sisters, and so I often wonder and question how wise turning my back on them really was. I eventually got the answers to my questions. But at what price? I don't seem to have arrived anywhere..

Two things, here. First, what I call the ritualistic noisemaking. In the book of Acts there was noisemaking, sure. "Cry out and shout, O inhabitants of Zion". But there was also action, and substance. In Pentecostalism and in the ritualized noisemaking of the Local Church there is a lot of hullabaloo but very short on acts. Remember that the book was called "The Acts of the Apostles" not "The Speeches of the Apostles" or "The Fist-pumping and Shouting of the Apostles". They followed Christ, who did something real and tangible to make the lives of so many better, not just talk the talk. That sick woman who met Jesus? She got better.

But in the Weird World of the Local Church, you don't have to understand, in fact better to be in a fog. You don't know what 'Light' means, just shout "Light" over and over and you become light. But in my case, after 3 years of eating and drinking every single day (I lived in a brothers house and was "church life" 24/7) my nightmares didn't end, my panic attacks, my compulsions, phobias, obsessions, internal shame. I went to the Church Leaders, one by one, privately. They stonewalled me, one by one. Incredible how unprepared they were for an actual human being with actual human problems.

Second, about not arriving anywhere. You still confess Jesus Christ as Lord, from what I can see. Many give up altogether after the Local Church, either thinking they've failed - "off to Outer Darkness for me" - or they become antagonistic to the Christian faith, because it gave them rubbish, straw and stubble. But the faith didn't give them rubbish, Witness Lee did. Yet they don't get that. Seems that you're more clear, and are in a relatively good spot. You came out of a pernicious controlling darkness, and now have faith in Jesus Christ. God 2, Satan 0. Keep going.

The only practical advice I'd give you is, read. Start with the Patristics, go through the various times (use the "for Dummies" version, 5 minutes on each author, it's ok). Read stuff you like, stuff you love, then read stuff that overturns what you thought you knew. Then read stuff that challenges that! Let every concept you own get shredded and pulverized. At the end, if you have Jesus Christ risen from the dead, you vicariously join him in victory. If not, then he wasn't worth keeping, anyway.

Challenge God. You will be better for it. And you will go where He wants you to go - there's a journey in front of you.

PriestlyScribe
04-06-2024, 10:34 PM
Challenge God. You will be better for it. And you will go where He wants you to go - there's a journey in front of you.

Challenge Lee. You will suffer initially, but in the long run be better for it. And you will be able to go where God wants you to go - there's a journey in front of you! (and I think many of us here will assist in whatever way we are able)

P.S.

aron
04-07-2024, 04:17 AM
And that's when my journey out of there began. Nonetheless, they are still my brothers and sisters, and so I often wonder and question how wise turning my back on them really was. I eventually got the answers to my questions. But at what price? I don't seem to have arrived anywhere.
The bolded part of the quote reinforces how pernicious this group is. They take over your mind (when I write the word 'you' and 'we' here, I'm generalizing based of experience, plus conversations & readings of posts like this, which may or may not relate to others, including HB). The ex-LC person, knowing that something is seriously off, still looks back, remembering the "enjoyment" and discounting the widespread rot.

We're social creatures, and want to belong somewhere, to something. The LC "church life" fills that in spades, and its loss leaves a void. We'd gotten meaning, validation, purpose, commonality, belonging. Now, there's a hole. But more importantly, while you were there you heard how everyone else is hopelessly defective. So, your mind is incessantly critical of your Christian fellows. You go into any other Christian meeting and cannot feel belonging, just despising of the defects, which are obvious and many. No mutuality, no belonging, can come out of that mindset. Only bitterness and alienation.

What happened is that you unconsciously accepted the curse that WL placed on Christianity. According to LC lore, once WN wrote a tract, no Christian author was worth reading. Once WN penned a hymn, no Christian music was worth hearing. It was all defective. So a kind of incessant despising judgmentalism and inbred superiority remains after you physically leave, and ruins any chance of further Christian fellowship and communion.

Suddenly the LC doesn't seem so bad, now that it's mentally cast as, "LC or nothing". I don't know how many people I've spoken to, over the past dozen years, who still meet with the LC, that said, "Hey, no church is perfect". Like, why did Luther leave the RCC if no church is perfect? Unbelievable, really... now they know about the Lee family, what was done to church members, and yet they still remain, because, hey, every church has problems, right? That's the rationalization they are led to. They want to belong somewhere, and there's nowhere else to go.

What saved me was this: years of frustration passed, and one day I discovered the law of Christ (Rom 13:8; Gal 6:2; John 13:34), the royal law (Ja 2:8). What you do to others, God will do to you. Bless others, you will be blessed. Curse, and you'll be cursed. Forgive others their trespasses, and God will forgive you (the opposite also holds true: don't forgive, and you won't be forgiven). Give unto others, and it will be given to you, shaken, pressed down, running over. Miracles will occur. Be patient with others, God will be patient with you. Visit others, God's presence will visit you. Listen to others, God will hear your prayers and longings. These are immutable laws, presented by the King.

All these teachings were presented over and over in the gospels, but I never really saw that they showed me a coherent body of thought. Love God and love one another are two sides of the same coin, two aspects of an indivisible reality. And the most important thing is that it's actionable, immediate - every day, when you go out on the street, you have an opportunity to find God. "When I was sick, you visited me..." That's where the rubber meets the road, where faith finds the anchor within the veil. If you find the unloved, and you love, then you share the victory of Christ. You get saved.

Everything changed in that moment of revelation, and I never looked back. Every Christian group or gathering is at least somewhat defective. But some groups will let you be your true self, finding your inner voice and your true and unique path, and some will suppress it and try to force you in a cookie cutter mold. "Every one must be exactly identical". I remember that footnote in the RecV. Or hearing churches held as "Witness Lee duplication centers", or hearing "We must all be WL tape recorders?" I daresay it's not a mistake to leave. Today I am what I am, and where I am, and accept responsibility for that.

Ohio
04-07-2024, 02:21 PM
And that's when my journey out of there began. Nonetheless, they are still my brothers and sisters, and so I often wonder and question how wise turning my back on them really was. I eventually got the answers to my questions. But at what price? I don't seem to have arrived anywhere.

The bolded part of the quote reinforces how pernicious this group is. They take over your mind ...
I found this little exchange really disturbing. Why does simple brotherly love, everywhere extolled in scripture, connecting former members of the LC's ever become "pernicious." On the contrary, I believe more brotherly love between members and non-members, is always a good thing.

aron
04-07-2024, 04:34 PM
I found this little exchange really disturbing. Why does simple brotherly love, everywhere extolled in scripture, connecting former members of the LC's ever become "pernicious." On the contrary, I believe more brotherly love between members and non-members, is always a good thing.

Either you misunderstood me, or I misunderstood HB, or both. The title of the thread is "From the Frying Pan... into... Another Frying Pan". The original post acknowledges [deceptively] hidden problems with the LC, says that he went out of the group, then says he wonders if turning his back on the group is a good thing. I took that as "going out" versus "being in". Nothing about whether one loves current members of the LC.

My longstanding point on this forum has been that there was apparently some controlling [non-Christian] spirit working in Jessie Penn-Lewis, which WN unwittingly imbibed from, and thus it controlled him. Thence on to WL and now the Blendeds and their captive LC assemblies. When Blended MC says, "I have the Spirit of Witness Lee", he is revealing that controlling spirit at work.

Now, I don't lack love to J P-L, to WN, or to WL or the Blendeds. It's the spirit that caught them, that I call out. My commentary was, that even when people see the abusive and disheartening patterns of behaviour in the LC, they return, because they are convinced that everything else is even worse. Like the woman who returns to the abusive husband because she's been mentally programmed, "Nobody else loves you except me". That's what I'm calling out, as pernicious.

We should turn our back on that pernicious controlling spirit. Jesus turned his back on Peter - "Get behind me, Satan". Jesus still loved Peter, but he didn't love what Peter was manifesting at that point, and he unequivocally called it out. Love doesn't "cover drunken Noah", but love calls out the spirit behind the drunkenness, to facilitate release from the spirit, and healing. If we love someone, and see them heading for the cliff, we should speak up. Even shout. Hey! Cliff ahead! At that point, if they refuse to listen, you have at least tried.

At any point, when one sees past the deception, and realizes they're faced with a controlling and manipulative spirit, there are two options: either turn away from it and keep seeking God elsewhere, or convince yourself that it's really okay, because "nobody's perfect" and turn back toward it. My counsel has been, don't let your love for the persons involved, or fond memories, or any residual narrative that there's nothing else out there for you, cause you to turn back toward what has clearly been revealed to be a wrong spirit.

ThankfulForever777
04-09-2024, 11:42 AM
My longstanding point on this forum has been that there was apparently some controlling [non-Christian] spirit working in Jessie Penn-Lewis, which WN unwittingly imbibed from, and thus it controlled him. Thence on to WL and now the Blendeds and their captive LC assemblies. When Blended MC says, "I have the Spirit of Witness Lee", he is revealing that controlling spirit at work.




Here is a document link that explains the errors of Jessie Penn-Lewis. Her influence greatly impacted WN and, subsequently, WL. I see a concerning progression of the controlling spirit in this context which eventually morphed into the LC's cult.

http://www.pfo.org/Pressing%20Truth%20to%20the%20Extreme.pdf

Ohio
04-10-2024, 07:36 PM
Here is a document link that explains the errors of Jessie Penn-Lewis. Her influence greatly impacted WN and, subsequently, WL. I see a concerning progression of the controlling spirit in this context which eventually morphed into the LC's cult.

http://www.pfo.org/Pressing%20Truth%20to%20the%20Extreme.pdf
This article starts out with the old maxim, "All error is truth pressed to extremes."

The article connects the extremes of Wesleyan Methodist holiness perfection with Darby Grant Exclusive Brethrenism, Penn-Lewis overcomer perfectionism, Reformed Calvinism, Madame Guyon mysticism, Seventh Day Adventists, Pentecostal Spirit baptism, the Keswick Convention, Nee's Little Flock, and the Recovery of WL. It seems only the Baptists have escaped the author's guilt by association.

Church history tells us that every church spin-off had certain ones prone to extremes. If these ones became leaders of new movements, then it "often produced pride, judgmentalism, elitism, obstinacy, and division," as the author so concisely concluded.

I think we would all agree, especially concerning those running LSM.

Apart from Jesus Christ our Lord, every time some gifted leader rises up in the church, members rush to new extremes following them. (Acts 20.30)

PriestlyScribe
04-12-2024, 11:22 PM
Her influence greatly impacted WN and, subsequently, WL. I see a concerning progression of the controlling spirit in this context which eventually morphed into the LC's cult.

http://www.pfo.org/Pressing%20Truth%20to%20the%20Extreme.pdf

Absolutely there is a correspondence between Witness Lee and Jessie Penn Lewis!
https://blendedbody.com/4LCD/WL-JPL-writings-inspired.png
Jessie Penn Lewis

https://blendedbody.com/4LCD/4B-WL-OracleOfGod.jpg
Witness Lee in STTIL (https://www.johningalls.com/#/reader/chapter/49/0.0.19.0.0.80)

Thanks for posting this document link.

P.S.

Bible-believer
04-30-2024, 11:35 PM
They are brainwashing their members with this now::mad:

"Any person in a local church who considers himself quite smart in his mentality will be a main cause of division. Never consider yourself smart in your mentality. You must fear your smart mind just as you fear the poison of the serpent. Oh, how we need to be kept in the Father’s life! Many brothers in the flesh love one another, not according to the outward condition but according to their inward blood. I had four brothers. Although we sometimes fought with each other, whenever someone tried to injure us, we were immediately united because we were of one blood. Likewise, the life of the Father, which is the reality of genuine oneness, unites us. Do not care for your likes or dislikes. Your feelings may cause you to be unhappy with me, and my temper may cause me to be unhappy with you. But we must forget about such things and take care of the inner life. Deep within, you have the Father’s life, and I have it too. We all have the Father’s life, and by the eternal life of our Father we are one."
Life-study of John 39
 Message 39
Life’s prayer
(2)

Unregistered
06-27-2024, 11:41 PM
They are brainwashing their members with this now....

There is heavy emphasis on not relying on your own thinking and mentality in the LC. This emphasis actually is what creates mindless drones. The Bible does say to not lean on our own understanding but I don’t think it implies we should toss out our rational minds completely. This is a good example of Lee using brainwashing tactics to control the behavior of his followers. If you can convince someone that their own thinking is of the flesh by default then you can convince them not to use their minds altogether, and then you have them completely under your control

The Bible tells us that our mind should be renewed (Ephesians 4:23), and that we should use our minds to turn to the spirit (Romans 8:6, Colossians 3:2). So I’m not getting where the Bible ever says to totally ignore or disregard one’s own mind completely. That’s talk that’s getting into really dangerous territory. It seems this is one of Lee’s concoctions and this type of “ministry” seemed to be one of his greatest methods of controlling his followers

Maybe we could say Lee is speaking hyperbolically here and he’s implying the untransformed part of our minds? But then why didn’t he just say that? Maybe there’s more context to this quote/chapter in the Life study idk

TLFisher
07-04-2024, 10:21 AM
https://blendedbody.com/4LCD/4B-WL-OracleOfGod.jpg
Witness Lee in STTIL (https://www.johningalls.com/#/reader/chapter/49/0.0.19.0.0.80)

Thanks for posting this document link.

P.S.
P.S. - there is good reason Living Stream Ministry wants the 1988 Pasadena Conference locked up as if it never existed.
Let us refer to Jeremiah 23:38

For if you say, ‘The oracle of the Lord!’ surely thus says the Lord, ‘Because you said this word, “The oracle of the Lord!” I have also sent to you, saying, “You shall not say, ‘The oracle of the Lord!’”’