Titus Chu spin off-help?

[Sunrise]

Hi all,

I came from the Ohio Titus Chu spin-off. Was there for a few years as a young person. I was looking for help because there are many testimonies on the main branch of LSM, but I know to some extent our group branched off

Did anyone here experience this TC group? We’re they equally as unbiblical as the other guys? Sorry I don’t know much of their terminology. I just am having a hard time coping because of they hid their association with WL it seemed. Every conference was his teachings now that I look back and searched it up. Is the TC group just another WL weird cultish group? Thanks

[aron]

I came from the Ohio Titus Chu spin-off. Was there for a few years as a young person. I was looking for help because there are many testimonies on the main branch of LSM, but I know to some extent our group branched off

Welcome Sunrise, I hope that you're doing alright. These groups can really affect one's thinking. I've slowly been unraveling things to my satisfaction, learning a bit here and there, along the way.

Of course there is a lot of information on the internet, if you have time and patience to sift through this forum you'll learn a lot about Titus Chu and his group, probably more than you want to know! (But I believe that with understanding comes freedom).

Titus Chu was recruited by Witness Lee in the 1950s while in High School in Taiwan. He had a forceful personality and quickly distinguished himself among his peer group, and upon emigrating to the U. S., he became a 'regional leader' in the Great Lakes area, centering in Cleveland, Ohio. (you probably know some of this). I was in a small group nearby, and when Titus came through it was like he was a big shining star. Everyone filled the small room, hung on his every word, laughed at his anecdotes, were impressed with his insights. The most striking thing about him was his strong personality. Very demonstrative, very assertive.

Then I left the Local Church group, and years later heard that he "rebelled" against the other followers of Witness Lee. Basically it comes down to this: he was willing to lose face to Witness Lee, but when WL died, TC didn't want to lose face to any others, and they kicked him and all his affiliated churches out of the Local Church aka Lord's Recovery.

Meanwhile, they did the same thing to another regional leader, Dong Yu Lan in Brasil. I'm not sure how those 2 deal with each other, if they have to kowtow to one another or not. All I know is there are Titus Chu spinoff churches in spread globally (Africa, Asia) in geographical areas where Living Stream Ministry churches also are, and both are supposedly "local" churches, but really they're full of Chinese expatriates who can't talk to one another. They're about as local as a McDonald's franchise in Paris.

They're high control groups, paranoid, fearful, with a strong persecution complex: if you disagree, you're seen as "attacking" them...they're also focused on themselves and not really into helping others, insular, introspective, judgmental, high demand, regimented, rigid and inflexible. If you want to be told what to do, it's a great place. Just don't plan on thinking too much, or if you do, keep your thoughts to yourself!

[Sunrise]

They're high control groups, paranoid, fearful, with a strong persecution complex: if you disagree, you're seen as "attacking" them...they're also focused on themselves and not really into helping others, insular, introspective, judgmental, high demand, regimented, rigid and inflexible. If you want to be told what to do, it's a great place. Just don't plan on thinking too much, or if you do, keep your thoughts to yourself!

Hi thank you for replying to my post

I just took some time to go through the website for references of Titus and Cleveland. This is so disappointing seeing everyone have similar stories to mine. I feel this group hid their true identity from me and others.

Why couldn't I see it before? I really thought I was following Jesus and had internal, subjective experiences or something... Now I am reading the Bible and its like a whole different book since being away.

Thanks

[Nell]

Hi thank you for replying to my post

I just took some time to go through the website for references of Titus and Cleveland. This is so disappointing seeing everyone have similar stories to mine. I feel this group hid their true identity from me and others.

Why couldn't I see it before? I really thought I was following Jesus and had internal, subjective experiences or something... Now I am reading the Bible and its like a whole different book since being away.

Thanks

Sunrise,

I can't fully answer your "Why?" questions, but we did have similar experiences...especially when you say "Now I am reading the Bible and its like a whole different book since being away."

This is what I think:

This is the best thing that could have happened to me (and you). It served as a period of "detox". After years of detox, the Bible became a new book...just like you described.

As to why we all went through that in the first place, it could be an indication that rather than knowing the Lord, we were seduced from knowing him and following him, to following someone who replaced him. We did have a "good time" in the LC (from time to time) and mistook this for a walk with the Lord.

One important matter in our walk with Him, he will never violate our free will...ever. We chose the path of the LC and he didn't overrule us. We had no idea what we were doing...yet we were "off". He gave us freedom to choose. We still have that freedom to follow him, we are free to make another choice. To choose him, we need to know him and his ways. Like Paul said "That I may know him..."

In other words, if we knew what we were doing...if we knew him...we would have hopefully chosen differently.

We were so indoctrinated with the "church" teaching/s that even today when leaving that place, we first start looking for another "church" rather than looking to know him. If we know him, he will take care of our fellowship with other believers.

So here's my advice: forget "church". Follow him, seek him in all things and he will guide your path. He will direct you to fellowship with others.

Just my opinion, hope it helps!
Nell

[ThankfulForever777]

he became a 'regional leader' in the Great Lakes area, centering in Cleveland, Ohio.

Just curious how large was this breakup in North America, proportionally speaking? Would you estimate it affected 5%, 10%, 20%, 30%, or even more of the population/ churches of Witness Lee's followers?

[ThankfulForever777]

We were so indoctrinated with the "church" teaching/s that even today when leaving that place, we first start looking for another "church" rather than looking to know him. If we know him, he will take care of our fellowship with other believers.

So here's my advice: forget "church". Follow him, seek him in all things and he will guide your path. He will direct you to fellowship with others.

Just my opinion, hope it helps!
Nell

I concur with Nell on the importance of prioritizing a personal relationship with God. However, I believe seeking a new church is not inherently wrong, nor would I suggest neglecting church altogether. It's important to acknowledge that the Lord might guide someone through various paths to detoxify spiritually and embark on a healthy spiritual journey.

In my own experience, leaving the cult of Witness Lee would have been impossible without first connecting with a genuine Christian church. The fellowship within a church and forming friendships with more mature believers played a crucial role for both my family and me. Leaving a controlling group comes with its challenges, such as dealing with an inflated or deflated sense of self, the risk of falling into other heretical teachings, or the trap of joining another cult online. Therefore, emotional and spiritual support is absolutely vital.

I want to emphasize that lacking a church community or close relationships with more mature believers can significantly slow down or even jeopardize the process of spiritual healing and recovery.

[Ohio]

I can honestly say that connecting with the Church in Cleveland was one of the greatest life events for me personally. So much changed in me, my thinking, my outlook on life, liberation from drugs and cigarettes, knowing the Lord, etc. etc.

But that doesn’t mean everything was perfect. Nothing is perfect here on earth. And I should add that churches change over time. A healthy church life for me back in the 70’s doesn’t mean all was good then or now. Unfortunately the LC system developed leaders over time that played God, they lorded it over others, they hurt others, not all were that way, but far too many.

One of my biggest failures there was trusting the brothers beyond what was healthy. I own that. Coupled with certain ones over me who were by nature controlling and manipulative was a recipe for failure. Some of those failures have enabled me to experience the love and grace of the Lord beyond what a smooth life would have afforded. As a general rule, we should all accept that behind the scenes it is God who works out all things for good. Bad things can sometimes help us more than the good. We are not alone here, the Lord has promised to always be with us.

[SpeakersCorner]

Sunrise, so here's my advice: forget "church".

Seriously? So Jesus’ words to Peter following his revelation — “Build my church” — we should just forget? And basically all of Paul’s epistles?

I disagree. The assembly, to use a different word, is God’s earthly dwelling, His bride-to-be, and body. Mysterious, yes. Difficult in many ways, yes. But forgetting the church is like amputating 90% of the New Testament.

[Sunshine]

Seriously? So Jesus’ words to Peter following his revelation — “Build my church” — we should just forget? And basically all of Paul’s epistles?

I disagree. The assembly, to use a different word, is God’s earthly dwelling, His bride-to-be, and body. Mysterious, yes. Difficult in many ways, yes. But forgetting the church is like amputating 90% of the New Testament.

Witness Lee had corrupted the definition of word church. He changed the definition base on his own business enterprise. He defines the genuine church base on oneness under his eldership. At first it was based on locality defined by city boundary, then it developed further to be based on one eldership under him and only using his brand of ministry.

All other worship centers or churches, Witness Lee labelled as Jeroboam church, illegal ground, not God's choice, etc.

To heal from the corrupted indoctrination of Witness Lee regarding church, body, etc. I find it very helpful to mentally acknowledge that he and his followers are referring to the genuine church of Witness Lee's (like a business franchise brand).

[SpeakersCorner]

Sunshine, I understand the point you’re making and I was aware that Nell placed the word “church” in quotes. My reaction comes from the fact that, whether or not you agree with Lee’s teaching on the church, you cannot run from the fact that the church is the final revelation in the Bible, the bride coming down from heaven.

I came to this thread because someone alerted me that it was here discussing Titus Chu. I have a personal story about Titus Chu. He came to my home in 1982 when I was living a “back to the land” existence on 15 acres on a gravel road in a house I cobbled together with duct tape and binder twine (well, in a manner of speaking. I did write some articles for Mother Earth News back then). He stayed overnight with us, held my then five-week-old baby girl in his arms, and walked with me on my country property. He came because he had heard we had a gathering of six people in our home. We invited some likeminded saints from as far as three hours away and had a conference around my dining room table, a table I had built out of salvaged yellow poplar flooring with original nails holes intact. (I mention these boards because they symbolized our little flock in many ways: salvaged, flawed, repurposed as a platform for serving and enjoying food.) And our little gathering became something bigger than a Bible study.

Through the years I’ve paid many a price to uphold whatever testimony we had. Defining “the church” has been an ongoing process in my life. Even today, now at age 70 meeting with 35 saints in a building we did much of the finish work on, I am trying to see what the church really is. It’s very mysterious to me but also very precious.

So I posted here to defend Titus Chu. He has been pilloried, excommunicated, reviled, slandered but that man, now in his upper 80s, continues to labor to “build the church.” In many ways he has been a model to me in trying to do the same.

[Nell]

Sunrise,
...
We were so indoctrinated with the "church" teaching/s that even today when leaving that place, we first start looking for another "church" rather than looking to know him. If we know him, he will take care of our fellowship with other believers.

So here's my advice: forget "church". Follow him, seek him in all things and he will guide your path. He will direct you to fellowship with others.

Just my opinion, hope it helps!
Nell

Quoting myself, here's a reminder of the actual context of my phrase forget "church". My comments didn't stand alone, or end there. What follows is the point I was trying to make. I'm certainly not suggesting that biblical references, i.e. Paul's ministry, to the church be abandoned, and am a little surprised that you would go there.

There's a huge difference between organized churches in America (or the world) today, and the church for which Jesus died. An amazing comment, even by Benson Phillips in the waaayyyy-back "early days" I still remember:

"If you pursue Christ, the church will come out. If you pursue the church, nothing will come out." Of course, we know that Benson at some point abandoned his own words.

I'll say, once again, I do not go to "church" and haven't for at least 10 years or more. I have fellowship with believers on a regular basis. I talk to the Lord daily.

Nell

[SpeakersCorner]

Nell,

Sorry I didn’t fully contextualize your quote. Your comments above were interesting and helpful. I liked the Benson Phillips quote but I don’t think he was right. I need to muse on it.

SC

[sunshine(OGpsoter)]

Witness Lee had corrupted the definition of word church. He changed the definition base on his own business enterprise. He defines the genuine church base on oneness under his eldership. At first it was based on locality defined by city boundary, then it developed further to be based on one eldership under him and only using his brand of ministry.

All other worship centers or churches, Witness Lee labelled as Jeroboam church, illegal ground, not God's choice, etc.

To heal from the corrupted indoctrination of Witness Lee regarding church, body, etc. I find it very helpful to mentally acknowledge that he and his followers are referring to the genuine church of Witness Lee's (like a business franchise brand).


hi. whoever this sunshine is is not me. I havent replied to this forum after my first 2 posts. Guess I should register in the future, please ignore

[sunrise]

** so sorry, i saw that i had mine under sunrise, and they were sunshine. I got it mixed sorry

[Ohio]

Currently I am reading a book on Revelation prophecy by Dr Rex Beck, who is related to Titus Chu by marriage. I suppose it could be considered “spin off help” according to the thread title.

This book is definitely not in the “LC-mold” of books I had read for years. Beck references different scholars, and takes a more “scientific” approach to some difficult topics. He definitely sources Robert Govett, whom I consider the greatest Apocalyptic scholar in church history.

I like Beck’s unique approach, identifying a few diverse interpretations, gathering all the facts from Scripture, discussing caveats of each which he calls “poison pills,” laying out their ramifications, and then letting the reader decide. I find his approach both refreshing and informative, in contrast with many LC doctrinal books.

Looking back at so many pet doctrines promoted by typical LC ministers, I am reminded of the old saying, “Text without context is pretext for proof text.” And that’s one of my chief complaints about the old LC system - developing doctrines around phrases yanked out of scripture.

[Ohio]

So I posted here to defend Titus Chu. He has been pilloried, excommunicated, reviled, slandered but that man, now in his upper 80s, continues to labor to “build the church.” In many ways he has been a model to me in trying to do the same.
Hey SC, nice to see an old friend stop by!

I agree that TC has been “pilloried, excommunicated, reviled, slandered” and more by small-minded man-pleasers who preach Christ out of pretense. (Phil 1.18) We both were part of a system that was turning rotten. But I also wonder how much of this mistreatment was discipline for how TC treated other brothers.

[SpeakersCorner]

But I also wonder how much of this mistreatment was discipline for how TC treated other brothers.

Hi, Ohio. I would like to respond obliquely, if you’ll permit. You may read into my response however you wish. As a Hoosier I have had a complicated relationship with a legendary figure here (who originally came from your territory, Ohio), one Bobby Knight. Actually, I have no relationship with Knight since I didn’t personally know him but I’m a big college hoops fan, I coached high school sports in the state (never basketball but I rubbed shoulders constantly with b-ball coaches), and it’s hard not to have a “complicated relationship” under those circumstances.

Early on I hated the guy but actually it was more the worship of him I despised. Indiana basketball coaches in the 70s and 80s revered him to a level that was near idol worship. “Defense! Discipline!” was the mantra, that and his “motion” offense. Me being a pretty undisciplined person by nature and a lover of offense over defense, it wasn’t hard to dislike the guy. Further, as the 90s rolled into play and speed and athleticism began to trump all in college hoops, Bobby dug in deeper, refusing to change with the times. His record began to decline.

Well, over the years I changed my views of him. Again, it was for a variety of reasons. But one factor really stood out for me: Bobby Knight hearkened back to a time when certain virtues like discipline and self-sacrifice were uplifted. The fact that he personally failed many of his own virtue values in many ways does not take away from him uplifting them. I uplift the virtues of Christ, most of which I fail daily.

When Coach Knight passed this year, I shed tears. Could I have survived playing for him? Probably not. But with his passing a world, partly real, partly mere nostalgia, passed with him. Indiana is a state known for its love of basketball and its achievements in that arena but if you check the banners hanging at Assembly Hall in Bloomington the most recent one is dated 1987.

Too long a response, I know. And probably too oblique. But perhaps you will read something into it that explains my view of our dear brother TC.

[Ohio]

Hi, Ohio. I would like to respond obliquely, if you’ll permit. You may read into my response however you wish. As a Hoosier I have had a complicated relationship with a legendary figure here (who originally came from your territory, Ohio), one Bobby Knight. Actually, I have no relationship with Knight since I didn’t personally know him but I’m a big college hoops fan, I coached high school sports in the state (never basketball but I rubbed shoulders constantly with b-ball coaches), and it’s hard not to have a “complicated relationship” under those circumstances.

Early on I hated the guy but actually it was more the worship of him I despised. Indiana basketball coaches in the 70s and 80s revered him to a level that was near idol worship. “Defense! Discipline!” was the mantra, that and his “motion” offense. Me being a pretty undisciplined person by nature and a lover of offense over defense, it wasn’t hard to dislike the guy. Further, as the 90s rolled into play and speed and athleticism began to trump all in college hoops, Bobby dug in deeper, refusing to change with the times. His record began to decline.

Well, over the years I changed my views of him. Again, it was for a variety of reasons. But one factor really stood out for me: Bobby Knight hearkened back to a time when certain virtues like discipline and self-sacrifice were uplifted. The fact that he personally failed many of his own virtue values in many ways does not take away from him uplifting them. I uplift the virtues of Christ, most of which I fail daily.

When Coach Knight passed this year, I shed tears. Could I have survived playing for him? Probably not. But with his passing a world, partly real, partly mere nostalgia, passed with him. Indiana is a state known for its love of basketball and its achievements in that arena but if you check the banners hanging at Assembly Hall in Bloomington the most recent one is dated 1987.

Too long a response, I know. And probably too oblique. But perhaps you will read something into it that explains my view of our dear brother TC.
I get it. I understand. Knight was a legend in Hoosier Nation. So were Woody Hayes and Joe Paterno.

[SpeakersCorner]

I get it. I understand. Knight was a legend in Hoosier Nation. So were Woody Hayes and Joe Paterno.

So we talk in code. And I broke your code as you (somewhat :) ) did mine. All three men had great strengths and great weaknesses though Paterno was, imho, undone by subordinates.

[aron]

I posted here to defend Titus Chu. He has been pilloried, excommunicated, reviled, slandered but that man, now in his upper 80s, continues to labor to “build the church.” In many ways he has been a model to me in trying to do the same.

SpeakersCorner,

I appreciate you coming on this discussion forum to defend Titus Chu, and write of your perspective. And I don't doubt your sincerity. But I must also write of what I have seen and heard, as well. I will make 3 comments and then discuss.

The first is that Jesus taught the great commandment was in two parts, to love God and to love one another. The two are deliberately paired, and can't be separated any more than two sides of a coin. Yet in the Local Church we got "build the church" and we lost our love, and the great high peak vision was really nothing but a cover. How people treated each other was not building the church.

The second is, to interpret the Bible, avoid egregious errors. Don't interpret a verse in such a way that it voids another verse. Each verse fits with the rest holistically. Don't be unbalanced, having supposedly crucial verses and ignoring so-called natural verses. Don't interpret a verse using one rule, and then interpret another verse differently. Be consistent in hermeneutics. Any first-year seminary student would get this drilled, yet these men never went to seminary. Some verses they'd hold as if it were the key to heaven, other verses they fled from like Dracula from the dawn.

The third point is on what I used to call Culture, but it's more accurate scripturally to call it Tradition. This is to do something reflexively, habitually, repeatedly, automatically, because that's what's always been done. The Local Church would take great pains to make a big deal of being biblical, but when "wrong" scripture verses hit their ingrained tradition, they dropped scripture like a hot poker. They'd freeze in meetings if someone quoted the "wrong verses".

It starts with Watchman Nee, who set the table for the rolling fiasco that followed. He was held to be the Spiritual Human, who was discerned by no one.*So, he'd do things that made no sense, that violated Biblical principles, that reversed earlier positions, but he was the inscrutable Spiritual Human. He could stay with a woman not his wife, and the poor sap Elders of Shanghai couldn't see that he was with his mother! Such unspiritual men! Such a natural view!

And how was Watchman Nee taken down by Ruth Lee for managing for-profit business with his unspiritual family members, supposedly to fund the gospel? Then restored by Witness Lee and Ruth Lee, according to WL's biography? Why was a female the kingmaker of the Little Flock and then 70 years later, females were unable to speak in the Local Church, because "women should be silent, and learn at home"? Not to mention Dora Yu, Peace Wang? How can an interpretive line be so mangled and self-contradictory and nobody noticed? Because the leaders were Spiritual Men, discerned by none, that's how. It was a sham.

And Witness Lee taking church members money to run a for-profit motor home business run by his own unspiritual family members, again supposedly for the gospel. "Even when he's wrong, he's right" was the refrain. Trust Witness Lee, he's got the inside track to God, and even though it looks wrong, it has to be right. He's the Spiritual Man.

And yet, Paul had written, when you prophesy, some others can discern. Yet that was one of the "forgotten" verses in the Lord's recovery. "Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said." 1 Cor 14:29 NIV Paul could discern Peter and James, and vice versa. Read Galatians 2 for example. But when Witness Li prophesied, nobody could discern. There was no mutuality in the Local Church. Tradition would not allow.

And I daresay it was exactly the same with Titus Chu. Nobody could call him out, but WL. I saw WL dress down TC in public, where TC had to admit, "I am ashamed" for not being strident in the New Way. It was a kow-tow session, in a Chinese Guanxi Network. Everyone in the room had to see who's the Boss. Then I heard that TC would do the same with underlings, who went back to their home groups and did the same.

Yes, TC (and WL and WN) could be "tender, nursing mothers" and you saw that. But that was to get you in the Network. Once you were in the inner ring, you got "perfected". From MEB to WN to WL to TC to the poor sap who wasn't Spiritual Man. I don't doubt that TC saw WL do this unto Jane and Sandee, unto John Ingalls and many others. He was not unawares. Many of us witnessed this pattern. Too bad for them. Duck your head and hope nobody calls you out. That's a guanxi network disguised as a church. No love. Without natural affection. The "church" part if for recruiting. If they said, "This is a Tong run by a Chinese warlord" the recruiting would suffer. So they faked like it was a church. They did a good job, some still believe it years after watching the brutalization, hypocrisy.

*Chang, P. H. (2017). " The Spiritual Human is Discerned by No One": An Intellectual Biography of Watchman Nee (Doctoral dissertation, The University of Chicago).

[SpeakersCorner]

I get it. I understand. Knight was a legend in Hoosier Nation. So were Woody Hayes and Joe Paterno.

You should add to your list of Bobby, Woody, and Joe … David. Amirite?

[Ohio]

So we talk in code. And I broke your code as you (somewhat :) ) did mine. All three men had great strengths and great weaknesses though Paterno was, imho, undone by subordinates.
That’s what I’m talking about. TC always gave us the impression that WL’s ministry burden was “undone by subordinates.” He held WL in the highest reverence, yet nearly despised all the Blendeds, eg “those 5 little boys.” Paterno did nothing wrong himself except for “covering the brother.” Sounds like nothing more than sordid LC behavior, “covered up” by others.

Like your early “contempt” for Knight, I am convinced that is the safest approach. In a world of idolatry, even among Christians, being overly skeptical of exalting our leaders is healthy. The Bible holds them to higher standards, and so should we. In the Recovery, WL and WN and TC have long been canonized into sainthood. Don’t you see the danger in that? The danger in bestowing such honors is too great to overcome.

You mentioned a story from 1982. I have another one from Columbus about that time. TC was invited, and a gifted brother from Willoughby showed up to the meeting. The brother BR had stopped meeting for awhile, and had grown a beard. Out of the blue, TC said that if a brother grows a beard, then it shows that his heart is cold towards the Lord. The comment was startling and inappropriate. Why shame a brother like that in a meeting? It’s not like the brother had a chance to respond. Why not greet him warmly? Pride at large on the bully pulpit!

What then was the lasting message? No spiritual man has a beard. Every brother with a beard has a cold heart towards the Lord. I literally had that pathetic thought in mind for 20 years at least. So judgmental of me! Then one day in the early 00’s I was studying the Plymouth Brethren in order to understand the division we were going thru. I got this book “Chief Men Among the Brethren.” Nearly all the brothers had beards! Imagine that! George Muller, Robert Chapman, etc. all had beards. Finally, I was delivered from that careless judgmental comment spoken 20 years ago from the pulpit. Unfortunately brother BR never returned. Then I also realized it was merely cultural - Chinese can’t grow beards, hence they condemned them.

[SpeakersCorner]

Ohio,

About ten years ago my wife and I visited Oldtown Bethlehem, Pa. and sat in the church Zinzendorf planted there. We paid for the tour. The guide told us that Zinzendorf came on Christmas Eve to see the fine new meeting hall they had built. They sang and were filled with joy. Then the Count led them out of the building and down the cobblestone street to where they first had met at a humble barn, I believe (my memory’s a bit fuzzy here). As they gathered around in the dark December night at the spot where the saints had first met Zinzendorf said, “Christ did not come to high Jerusalem but to lowly Bethlehem. Let us never forget that.” And then he christened the town Bethlehem.

This story touched me deeply. I didn’t think of it at the time but here now, as I continue in this thread, it strikes me that I experienced something similar back in 1982. It has nothing to do with hero worship or exaltation of leaders. Brother TC came to my house on a gravel road, a dusty gravel road, where six people met once a week for the purpose of supporting us, lifting us to something higher than a mere Bible study. It’s amazing to me to realize that we still have a testimony that remains 42 years later.

You and others have pointed out what you believe are TC’s failings many times in these spaces. I am presenting a different view. If you think I’m guilty of exalting him or others such as WL, that’s fine. It matters not to me. It isn’t true, though. If you don’t believe me allow me to introduce you to many brothers who think I’m too critical of everybody and everything. Actually, I don’t need to do the introductions since you know many of them.

No, I don’t exalt anyone but Christ which I do every Domingo (Lord’s Day. The Spanish got it right). But I definitely do give credit to those who have labored to help build the church. And that’s why I told my story.

[aron]

Just curious how large was this breakup in North America, proportionally speaking? Would you estimate it affected 5%, 10%, 20%, 30%, or even more of the population/ churches of Witness Lee's followers?It impacted the Eastern USA followers. The Brasilians had infiltrated many Eastern Seaboard churches, and when Titus Chu and Dong Yu Lan pulled out of the Recovery it significantly affected operations.That’s what I’m talking about. TC always gave us the impression that WL’s ministry burden was “undone by subordinates.” He held WL in the highest reverence, yet nearly despised all the Blendeds, eg “those 5 little boys.”When WL passed, one of the current Blendeds passed through, making rounds. He told us, "The age of Spiritual giants is over, it is the age of small potatoes." TC was willing to be a small potato to WL, but not to BP & EM & RK. That's it in a nutshell. Same w Dong, who would kowtow to WL but not the little boys of Anaheim.

This is why I see church as such a landmine. Very few people that I know socially are willing to believe that God raised Jesus from the dead and gave him glory. Why? Because behind that gospel, they see TC and the Blendeds playing church. Staying in the world makes a lot more sense than getting pulled into that. I saw families pulled apart: are you with Dong -- or with Anaheim?

Back to my original point - nobody can address the 300 lb gorilla in the living room. When I mention the reciprocity in 1 Corinthians 14 and Galatians 2, and its sheer and utter absence in the top rungs of the Recovered Church of Nee, Lee, Dong, Chu... silence. Their tradition renders them incapable of seeing this. To them, it does not and cannot exist. Yet they spend their days, staring at the Bible, dredging support for their traditions.

Even some traditions get no Bible support. When we were told, "The age has turned", no verse was cited. Why? Because WL was the Spiritual man and you are not. That was the basis of the whole Guanxi network. Your connection to God is through lining up with the Deputy God. Yet the NT not only doesn't support this, it condemns it. But tradition demanded it to be so.

It doesn't matter if God's economy has intensified Spirit, which Paul never referenced. "It was a revelation of the Spiritual man, God's oracle." Or, multiple conflicting centers of the universe. Or, local churches being overturned by the Jerusalem principle. Or, the reversed role of women in church. If the Guru flip-flops, and yesterdays black becomes today's white, he's right. Tradition demands it to be so.

Inherited and engrained tradition demanded that TC and DYL break off from Anaheim. They were just filling roles.

[Ohio]

All three men had great strengths and great weaknesses though Paterno was, imho, undone by subordinates.
20 some years ago I could not understand why the LC’s, who talk more about the oneness of believers and the cross of Christ than any other Christians, could be on the verge of a major schism. Each one of us, one by one, whether with loved ones or without, were forced to take sides. I eventually decided not to, and so I left due to the conflict.

It was not until I studied Darby and the Plymouth Brethren that I could understand “great men.” How could lowly JNDarby daily visit new believers on long dusty roads every afternoon, and then publicly rebuke and shame notable and fruitful ministers and scholars like BWNewton and George Muller? These conflicts were totally irreconcilable to me. How could ones like Darby have life-altering visits with new believers in the afternoon, and then damage these same believers in the evening by publicly destroying other well-respected ministers?

I first needed to understand “great men.” Their inner drive to be on top can at times supersede all other positive virtue. Jesus addressed this drive repeatedly while on earth, humbling His disciples. With Paul, we only see this power displayed in Antioch with Peter when the truth of the Gospel was at stake. Paul got this message from the Lord. He never used his authority on perceived rivals in the church. Unfortunately, all the LC leaders we have discussed have missed that memo. The most powerful rises to the top, and others must line up behind, waiting for their chance.


This story touched me deeply. I didn’t think of it at the time but here now, as I continue in this thread, it strikes me that I experienced something similar back in 1982. It has nothing to do with hero worship or exaltation of leaders. Brother TC came to my house on a gravel road, a dusty gravel road, where six people met once a week for the purpose of supporting us, lifting us to something higher than a mere Bible study. It’s amazing to me to realize that we still have a testimony that remains 42 years later.

You and others have pointed out what you believe are TC’s failings many times in these spaces. I am presenting a different view. If you think I’m guilty of exalting him or others such as WL, that’s fine. It matters not to me. It isn’t true, though. If you don’t believe me allow me to introduce you to many brothers who think I’m too critical of everybody and everything. Actually, I don’t need to do the introductions since you know many of them.
Brother SC, I’m sorry if I gave the impression that you have overly exalted a man. You were the recipient of a blessed “afternoon visit.” Others, however, were victims of those “evening meetings,” where brothers got beat down into submission. With most “great men” in the Recovery the conflict here is never recognized. Kind, brotherly shepherding in the afternoon easily becomes public “ice-baths” in the evening.

Jesus said these things ought not to be. No man on earth, especially in His church, should ever be on top. That system of thought, whether Papal or MOTA. is not of God. I’m thankful you could reject that thought and stay. I had to leave in order to reject it.

[SpeakersCorner]

Brother SC, I’m sorry if I gave the impression that you have overly exalted a man. You were the recipient of a blessed “afternoon visit.” Others, however, were victims of those “evening meetings,” where brothers got beat down into submission.

No need for apology at all. Your “blessed afternoons” vs. “evening beatdowns” displays insight. I didn’t know that about Darby. Believe it or not, I have been the recipient of a few public beatdowns though, I must say, none like some others I witnessed. I personally saw that whole method of leadership as counterproductive to the max. A lot of it was performative, I thought. A lot was simply Chinese culture brought to the West which I hate. Whatever. I had some of the same basic criticisms of Bobby Knight, who I used as a proxy to make points here.

I brought up David (as in King David) in a post above because he too did a lot of stuff that was indefensible. This forum, though ostensibly here to bring conversation between those in with those out of the LC, is mainly here just to point out the flaws. The Bible certainly points out David’s flaws but it also tells us that David was a “man after God’s heart” and that God will establish His ultimate throne on the regal line David founded.

[SpeakersCorner]

Aron,

I at first didn’t read your post because it looked long and boring. But I just now did read it and, while long, it wasn’t boring. I don’t disagree with everything you wrote. One comment stuck out to me: “Yes, TC (and WL and WN) could be ‘tender, nursing mothers’ and you saw that. But that was to get you in the Network.”

You’re calling them hypocrites and evil workers. That’s the only way I can read that. You’re also, by implication, implying I’m a dupe for falling for their Absolomian kisses. Well, I’m not a sap, a dupe, a rube, a dope and I would think that just by reading my posts here you would recognize that. The fact that you can’t make that connection makes me very distrustful of any analysis you bring to the discussion. Further, citing a book with the word “Intellectual” in the title as some kind of self-validation is amusing to me.

[Ohio]

No need for apology at all. Your “blessed afternoons” vs. “evening beatdowns” displays insight. I didn’t know that about Darby. Believe it or not, I have been the recipient of a few public beatdowns though, I must say, none like some others I witnessed. I personally saw that whole method of leadership as counterproductive to the max. A lot of it was performative, I thought. A lot was simply Chinese culture brought to the West which I hate. Whatever. I had some of the same basic criticisms of Bobby Knight, who I used as a proxy to make points here.

I brought up David (as in King David) in a post above because he too did a lot of stuff that was indefensible. This forum, though ostensibly here to bring conversation between those in with those out of the LC, is mainly here just to point out the flaws. The Bible certainly points out David’s flaws but it also tells us that David was a “man after God’s heart” and that God will establish His ultimate throne on the regal line David founded.
Brother SpeakersCorner, as you may well remember, we had often stood side-by-side defending the valuable "pearls" we have received in the Recovery. I'll never forget the 2by4 you threw me once when my knees got a little wobbly defending the faith.

I would like to address these "beat-downs" according to the scripture, adding that I am in no way categorically opposed to them. Rather the question is simple: What is the goal and the motive behind the "beat-down?" There are two types:

(1) Paul's instruction to Timothy (I Tim 5.17-21) provides incentive. "Beat-downs" are used exclusively for leaders who sin. Not arbitrarily, but in cases where there are witnesses, and necessarily due process. The goal is to warn the church, limited to those who are affected, so that all might be in fear. This must also be done without prejudice against one who may be disliked, and without partiality towards one who may be favored.

(2) Peter warns us not to "lord it over" others, (I Pet 5.3), which should match John's mention of the Nicolaitans, or "conquer the laity," (Rev 2.6) and his rebuke of Diotrephes, who loved to be first. (3 Jn 9-11) These admonitions correspond with Jesus' own warnings about wanting to be great, (eg Matt 20.20-28) and Paul's warning with tears of those who will "rise up from within drawing the disciples after them." (Acts 20.30)

This latter type of public "beat-down" has no basis in scripture, and merely serves to establish hierarchy in the church, targeting one's perceived rivals. Unfortunately the Recovery was consumed with the latter, and the former was rarely employed especially when sorely needed. Supposedly, sister M E Barber "recovered" this practice, which has dominated LC culture ever since.

Concerning King David, yes, he had notable failures now known by all men. God was faithful via Nathan the Prophet to apply a serious "beat-down" of the first type. I am not aware of David using the second type.

[Ohio]

Aron,

I at first didn’t read your post because it looked long and boring. But I just now did read it and, while long, it wasn’t boring. I don’t disagree with everything you wrote. One comment stuck out to me: “Yes, TC (and WL and WN) could be ‘tender, nursing mothers’ and you saw that. But that was to get you in the Network.”

You’re calling them hypocrites and evil workers. That’s the only way I can read that. You’re also, by implication, implying I’m a dupe for falling for their Absolomian kisses. Well, I’m not a sap, a dupe, a rube, a dope and I would think that just by reading my posts here you would recognize that. The fact that you can’t make that connection makes me very distrustful of any analysis you bring to the discussion. Further, citing a book with the word “Intellectual” in the title as some kind of self-validation is amusing to me.
In defense of aron, I don't think there needs to be hypocrisy here.

The severity of LC "beat downs" was proportional to the threat. Perceived rivals, dissenters, and whistleblowers got the worst treatment for sure. New ones, young ones, sisters, and weak ones got only love and encouragement. Obviously the longer you stuck around and matured in your operation, the harsher your treatment.

[SpeakersCorner]

Ohio,

Again, I agree with the bulk of your post, maybe its entirety. I think the beatdown tactic is counterproductive. I sometimes wonder it’s just because I’m too soft to handle it but actually, I don’t wonder that anymore. My younger self did. This as a public forum makes it difficult to speak plainly as you no doubt understand. My deepest intention in the present discussion is (I think) to try to nudge this thread away from a TC-bashing session. I read your verses and they are true: leaders do need to be taken to account. How the Lord does that is up to Him though I am not unaware that He used many means in the OT including the nations to do the disciplining. And, as you note, the prophets such as Nathan (who, imho, told the most cunning allegory in history).

My LC experience, as you know from years ago postings, is really atypical. But it is part of the mosaic and many people both inside and out are unaware of such experiences. The Blended Bros. seemed really caught off guard by my story. I wrote, with great pleasure, during the quarantine time how Titus had been to my home but not a one of them had even taken ten minutes to meet meet in the nine trainings I attended on their soil. That arrow found its mark, let me assure you. (I feel guilty even now of the pleasure I feel at this moment recalling the exchanges I made with them. It’s fleshly and I denounce myself. Yet still I smile.)

[aron]

I don't buy the "great but flawed church leader" argument. A first-year seminary student would be taught not to take OT types, shadows and figures to glide past clear NT directives. Paul was direct in how Church leaders should behave, and what happens when they don't. He was quite frank.

If you can't understand the difference between a flawed but repentant church member and a flawed but unrepentant church leader, then you are being used to cover up their abuse. And to those who find my observation insulting, too bad. I'm willing to offend some, if some will wake up.

And I notice in online forums, that people who get offended by my characterizations never actually address the substance. I will, for example, quote the mutuality that's seen in 1 Cor 14, and Galatians 2, and missing in the Local Church, but it's never acknowledged... just that I'm an aggressive writer. That's kind of my point: I see assiduous determination to focus on only selected part of the Bible, avoiding the unhelpful parts, then retreating back to homespun analogies, or holding up OT types that don't wash. And on that the church is supposedly being built.

There is no Drunken Noah in the NT, no David the Adulterer and Murderer. Christ is our Noah, our David, our Moses. And he's not a drunk or an adulterer. Paul goes over this in great detail in his epistles to Titus and Timothy. And none of the other NT-era leaders violated this. What if Peter had taken the funds from property sales in Acts 4 and 5, built a fleet of boats for his immediate family, saying that it was for the gospel? What kind of NT would that be? I know that the Dong, Nee, and Lee families all did variations of this. Even if the Chu family didn't, did he call it out when it was going on? Or, did he write it off as a cost of maintaining the Network?

[SpeakersCorner]

Aron,

I’m not sure who you’re yelling at in the above post (I assume it’s me). At any rate, I just don’t see the value in people spending their lives railing about the last church they were in. I get that the the LC was a very tough row to hoe and many left in tatters. I sympathize. I “touched the church” in 1972, spent a summer in a brothers’ house that year, and left in tatters. It was extremely traumatic for me at age 19 (or was it 20? Can’t remember.) I actually prayed the most fervent prayer of my life telling the Lord I would suffer a thousand years of Outer Darkness but I couldn’t give up my soul life another day in the LC.

You know what happened next? I went to visit a friend in a town I’d never been to, enrolled in college there, and on the first day of class the Lord gave me my wife to be. I have always attributed this gift to my honest pursuit of the Lord and honest prayer that day.

Somehow through that very gift the Lord brought me back. God is so gracious if we just deal with Him honestly. Trying to blame others for our failures is a bad place to be though it is extremely human to do so. Eve blamed the serpent and Adam blamed both Eve and God in an impressive bit of passive-aggressiveness (“The woman You gave me …”)

[UntoHim]

This forum, though ostensibly here to bring conversation between those in with those out of the LC, is mainly here just to point out the flaws. The Bible certainly points out David’s flaws but it also tells us that David was a “man after God’s heart” and that God will establish His ultimate throne on the regal line David founded.

Long time no see SpeakersCorner. I see you still are riding that one-trick pony as well as ever!:) - My friend, I really think you need to catch up on your church history, especially recent church history. We are in the 21st century now, and things have changed. False teachers are being called out for their false teachings. Abusers are being called out for their abuses. And more and more, thanks in part to the Internet and forums such as this, former members of cultic groups like the Local Church of Witness Lee are doing the calling out, and they cannot be so easily silenced and cancelled by a simple proclamation of the Grand Poohbah(s) in Anaheim or Cleveland.

I'm not really sure where you are going with this "The Bible certainly points out David’s flaws but it also tells us that David was a “man after God’s heart" illustration, but it smacks heavily of the pathetic defenses of Witness Lee by his minion followers over the years. I know it when I see it, because I used to be one of the minions for 20+ years. And I hate to be the one to tell you, but this all applies to Titus Chu as well. You see, Titus not only picked up on Lee's false teachings (and ran with them quite well), he also picked up on his abusive ways. So he is getting called out just like his mentor and apostle Witness.

God is not mocked. My crude, but contemporary, interpretation is this: "God will no longer suffer fools gladly". And neither should those who want to see truth and integrity restored in the house of God. Yes, Peter was right - "For it is time for the judgment to begin with the household of God" (1 Pet 4:17) And this judgement is a long time in coming for the Local Church of Witness Lee, and for any of the spinoff sects such as the one established by Titus Chu.
-

[SpeakersCorner]

Gotta say, UntoHim, when it comes to one-trick ponies you are the master.

[Ohio]

Gotta say, UntoHim, when it comes to one-trick ponies you are the master.
Is that something like a "lying dog-faced pony soldier?"


It sounds almost Presidential!

[SpeakersCorner]

Is that something like a "lying dog-faced pony soldier?"
It sounds almost Presidential!

Touche. I may announce my candidacy.

[aron]

I just don’t see the value in people spending their lives railing about the last church they were in.

I understand the perspective. Like spending your life telling others about your parents, who didn't do a good job. Well, get out there & do better then. Right? I'm pretty old-school myself, mostly.

In this case, however, the "last church we were in" aka the LC or Recovery is a burning house, and some are still trapped inside, choking on smoke & wondering how to escape the flames. Notice the title on this thread with the word 'help'? It's not uncommon. Scroll through the Introduction posts, a good percentage say, 'help'

We could congratulate ourselves, on getting out, go take a nice cool dip. Get on with our lives. But some may linger nearby, worried, pointing to the door, waving hands. Hey! Over there! The door! There's a way out!

[aron]

I feel this group hid their true identity from me and others. Why couldn't I see it before? I really thought I was following Jesus...I have been thinking of the story that SpeakersCorner wrote, about being visited personally by Titus Chu in 1982. My question is, what if a team of Mormons or Jehovah's witnesses or Branch Davidians or Jesus Family had come down that dusty gravel road? Just because you get outreach doesn't mean anything of itself.

The purpose of the visit by an LSM proxy, in this case Titus Chu, was to convince others that they are legitimate ministers of Christ Jesus. Ambassadors of Christ, Paul would call them. But I'm convinced that even though Nee & Chu & Lee claim to represent Christ, they do not. Their fruit is evident.

In the case of Chu, in particular, John Ingalls wrote that TC told him to shut up & fall in line when Witness Lee's son was caught repeatedly abusing LSM staff. That visit was to sell the notion, "We the are the church", later amended to, "Only we are the church", later amended to, "Shut up and get in line".

To go back to the analogy of the flawed man who is still a man after God's heart, that type does relate to the NT believer. However, the basis of the NT believer is repentance. Suppose David had Nathan killed after being confronted with his crimes against Uriah? Would he still be after God's heart?

[Ohio]

I have been thinking of the story that SpeakersCorner wrote, about being visited personally by Titus Chu in 1982. My question is, what if a team of Mormons or Jehovah's witnesses or Branch Davidians or Jesus Family had come down that dusty gravel road? Just because you get outreach doesn't mean anything of itself.

The purpose of the visit by an LSM proxy, in this case Titus Chu, was to convince others that they are legitimate ministers of Christ Jesus. Ambassadors of Christ, Paul would call them. But I'm convinced that even though Nee & Chu & Lee claim to represent Christ, they do not. Their fruit is evident.

In the case of Chu, in particular, John Ingalls wrote that TC told him to shut up & fall in line when Witness Lee's son was caught repeatedly abusing LSM staff. That visit was to sell the notion, "We the are the church", later amended to, "Only we are the church", later amended to, "Shut up and get in line".

To go back to the analogy of the flawed man who is still a man after God's heart, that type does relate to the NT believer. However, the basis of the NT believer is repentance. Suppose David had Nathan killed after being confronted with his crimes against Uriah? Would he still be after God's heart?

The history of the Plymouth Brethren teaches us that the EARLIER one got expelled from the program, the healthier, freer, and more blessed these ones became in the long term. Think George Muller. We should not forget that TC DID get expelled from the program, albeit too late.

But the comparisons between TC and David Koresh or the JW’s really have crossed the line. Shameful in fact. Yes, TC could fairly be compared to a tough old army general, but never was there ever a taint of personal moral failure.

[aron]

The history of the Plymouth Brethren teaches us that the EARLIER one got expelled from the program, the healthier, freer, and more blessed these ones became in the long term. Think George Muller. We should not forget that TC DID get expelled from the program, albeit too late.If a bank robber gets expelled from a criminal gang, he's still a bank robber. They just didn't want to share the loot is all.

the comparisons between TC and David Koresh or the JW’s really have crossed the line. Shameful in fact. Yes, TC could fairly be compared to a tough old army general, but never was there ever a taint of personal moral failure.Interesting perspective. I didn't see myself crossing a line, but then if someone knew, they wouldn't cross it, would they? And that is my point - that TC crossed the line, and further, that he wouldn't have crossed it, had he known, but that's what blindness does to you. "For if they had known it, they wouldn't have crucified the Lord of glory" 1 Cor 2.8

I was deliberately and consciously being categorical: Jehovah Witness, Church of Jesus Christ (Mormon), Rastafarian, Unification Church, Jesus Family, Branch Davidian, Living Stream Ministry & its captive Local Churches are all counterfeits. They present themselves as "the Christian church", as collectively representing the furtherance of the resurrected Lord of glory, but actually they represent something else entirely. Not partly but entirely. A counterfeit bill is not partly real, but fully counterfeit.

I don't judge Titus Chu's private relationship and personal walk with God, nor for that matter of Witness Lee, nor Watchman Nee, but as public figures in the church, they refused to repent for repeated acts of evil behaviour, and then even abetted its continuation, and to some degree they share in its outcome.

What Witness Lee's son did to the women serving in LSM offices was evil. It was assault, not consensual, because of the power imbalance. And WL set it all up, and sent the victims out of town, and covered up the evil act. And then TC covered WL. None of them repented publicly that I have ever seen. What do you think it was like for that poor family? They didn't just assault a woman, but a whole family. And it happened repeatedly to multiple families.

I am not going to characterize any individual follower of these men, either, any more than to an individual Mormon or Jehovah's Witness or Rasta. I'm sure there are 'good' i. e., active and devout and well-meaning Christian persons there. But the collective groups are not Christian, but rather counterfeits. They work hard to appear Christian because that helps recruiting, and retention. But if you look at the clear and repeated patterns emerging from within, there is fruit that categorically defines of what sort it all is, and it's decidedly not Christian.

Many who looked up to Zacharias as a mentor, model, and spiritual father have been trying to grapple with the new information, their feelings of betrayal, and questions about their own responsibility.

“I feel disappointed in myself and others who could have pushed harder against the tides of submissive loyalty to demand better answers earlier, as there is no part of the evangelical creed that honours cowardice or sacrifices conscience,” Dan Paterson, the former head of RZIM in Australia, wrote on Facebook Wednesday night.

“I feel a profound sense of the fear of the Lord, knowing that one day I too will give an account, where like the RZ report, everything done under the shroud of darkness will be made known. Jesus comes to restore justice through judgment. Oh, how I wish Ravi repented here!”The Living Stream Ministry hasn't been alone in manipulative and abusive behaviour, under a cloak of facile and too-convenient spirituality. But others who abetted this pattern of abuse, when confronted with it (like King David) repented. There's a fundamental difference between what happened at RZIM and LSM. In spite of failure, widespread and long-standing, the RZIM leadership repented. But instead of repenting, the Local Church leaders piled on more and more victims - the Andersons, the Rappoports, the Mallons, the Ingalls, etc etc

https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2021/february/ravi-zacharias-rzim-investigation-sexual-abuse-sexting-rape.html

[aron]

I'd like to revisit the theme of the flawed church leader who like the adulterer David, was still a man after God's heart. My counter is that David repented. And I then asked, What if David, when confronted, instead had Nathan killed, and when shipped all the witnesses and their families out of town?

Look what WL did, when he found out about his Office Manager at LSM, who happened to be his son. Then look at what MR did, and TC, and JI. It looks as though JI was the flawed man after God's heart, who was willing to repent. He'd invested his life in this. His name was on the published books, next to WL. And yet he was willing to repent and let it go.

And Godfred Otuye, another Anaheim elder. Same thing - GO was willing to repent of his promotion of something not after God's heart, and to accept responsibility. Again, a human life's course altered, with all the effects on his family, who either has to denounce GO as a rebel against God's throne, or be expelled. I don't doubt the human cost was high.

[PriestlyScribe]

The Living Stream Ministry hasn't been alone in manipulative and abusive behaviour, under a cloak of facile and too-convenient spirituality. But others who abetted this pattern of abuse, when confronted with it (like King David) repented. There's a fundamental difference between what happened at RZIM and LSM. In spite of failure, widespread and long-standing, the RZIM leadership repented. But instead of repenting, the Local Church leaders piled on more and more victims - the Andersons, the Rappoports, the Mallons, the Ingalls, etc etc
https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2021/february/ravi-zacharias-rzim-investigation-sexual-abuse-sexting-rape.html

Another way to look at the fall of many modern church leaders and even para-church organizations like RZIM, Bill Gothard's IBLP or The Shepherding Movement is that Witness Lee may actually share some amount of direct responsibility for their failures. Let's imagine for just a moment that the horrible book Authority And Submission never actually came into existence. If Witness Lee had failed in his mission to hide Watchman Nee's sins from the rest of the world then leaders like Ravi Z. & Bill G. might never have gotten away with harming as many innocent people. Or let's go one step further. What if WL had died while in custody of the Japanese? Where would we all be right now? Sorry, but sometimes I have these what-if thinking spells.

P.S.

[aron]

Another way to look at the fall of many modern church leaders and even para-church organizations like RZIM, Bill Gothard's IBLP or The Shepherding Movement is that Witness Lee may actually share some amount of direct responsibility for their failures. Let's imagine for just a moment that the horrible book Authority And Submission never actually came into existence. If Witness Lee had failed in his mission to hide Watchman Nee's sins from the rest of the world then leaders like Ravi Z. & Bill G. might never have gotten away with harming as many innocent people.

Another question: What if ME Barber had succeeded at warning people away from her now apparently rogue protégé Watchman Nee? She wrote DM Panton in London, asking him not to receive nor encourage the young man, who was bright, relentlessly ambitious and headed for much trouble, because of his enthusiasm and inexperience. Those were perhaps some of the most prophetic words penned in 20th century Christendom.

She'd told "Henry" to stay away from Jessie Penn-Lewis, perhaps knowing of the influence of Freemasonry (J P-L had been a youth leader in the group*), but WN not only got into it but republished much of it verbatim under his own name. The publisher acknowledged this outsized debt, in the preface to the 2nd edition of Spiritual Man, but by then the die was cast and the putative ministry of WN was well underway.

*Mary N. Garrard and Jessie Penn-Lewis, Mrs. Penn-Lewis: A Memoir (London: The Overcomer Book Room, 1931), 1–4.