Just left The Local Church

[Unregistered]

Hi all,
I'm a recent college grad who was in the Titus Chu LC split for 2.5 years. I became a christian shortly before finding the Church, so this was my first big experience with a body of believers. I didn't grow up in church, so I was eager to be involved with anything Jesus once I got saved.

I think eventually the teachings didn't make sense and my fear of the Lord departed because I was focused on serving people over listening to Jesus. I could go on about things, however I just wanted to ask for legitimate guidance on how to go on in my christian walk after this. I'm recovering from alot of false ideas and works based Christianity because of the LC... I'm having a hard time trusting new Churches and don't know how to identify correct teaching. Thanks : )

[Recovering]

Hi all,
I think eventually the teachings didn't make sense and my fear of the Lord departed because I was focused on serving people over listening to Jesus. I could go on about things, however I just wanted to ask for legitimate guidance on how to go on in my christian walk after this. I'm recovering from alot of false ideas and works based Christianity because of the LC... I'm having a hard time trusting new Churches and don't know how to identify correct teaching. Thanks : )

Hi Just Left, and welcome to the forum!
I’ll share two things that have helped me:
1 - Read your Bible. A lot. And if you can, try to read through different versions. Since leave the LCs, I’ve read through the ESV, CSB, and now I’m reading “The Message” which is a different sort of experience, but helpful in its own way. Read their footnotes and commentaries. But most of all, prioritize engaging with God’s Word directly.
2 - In spite of what I heard in the LCs for decades, there is a lot of great commentary on the Christian faith that I have found to be helpful. Two that I think would be especially helpful for sorting out basic questions of faith would be C.S. Lewis’s Mere Christianity and N.T. Wright’s Simply Christian. They are both really accessible and solidly grounded in scripture and don’t promote any particular denominational interpretation of secondary issues. I think either or both of those would be good for believers of any stripe or for non-believer to learn what the Christian faith is.

[ACuriousFellow]

Hi all,
I'm a recent college grad who was in the Titus Chu LC split for 2.5 years. I became a christian shortly before finding the Church, so this was my first big experience with a body of believers. I didn't grow up in church, so I was eager to be involved with anything Jesus once I got saved.

I think eventually the teachings didn't make sense and my fear of the Lord departed because I was focused on serving people over listening to Jesus. I could go on about things, however I just wanted to ask for legitimate guidance on how to go on in my christian walk after this. I'm recovering from alot of false ideas and works based Christianity because of the LC... I'm having a hard time trusting new Churches and don't know how to identify correct teaching. Thanks : )
I would recommend in particular a book by former LC member John Myer titled A Future and Hope. He wrote it specifically to ex-members of The Lord's Recovery, and it was very helpful for me emotionally. I also understand that feeling of distrust and discomfort with finding a new church home. Pretty much 99% of those I considered friends/family were in the LC. I went from dozens upon dozens of close friends/family to just a handful. It was an incredibly difficult transition, but it was worth the freedom from Lee's nonsense. Still, takes time to heal from such things.

Anyhoo, there are plenty of other excellent Christian authors out there. C.S. Lewis is pretty awesome. Wouldn't hurt to read his Narnia series, either! He based it off his beliefs as a Christian. I bought the set recently but I haven't touched it :p

I should probably get on that, hehe. They're just gathering dust over on my bookshelf.

But ultimately, just like the user named "Recovering" said, read your bible. If you're gonna read one book, make it DA BIBBLE. Read it lots and lots. Don't burn yourself out, either, but get to reading, haha! And prayer. Lots of prayer. When you're in pain. When you're confused. When you're angry. When you're sad. When you're scared. Let it all out, and be honest with your feelings when you open up to God. It's part of the healing process. Like when there is something in our stomachs that should not be there and so we vomit. Gets the nasty out.

It'll take time, but as you pray and study, your discernment will grow. There are plenty of churches to explore, and if you're heart is set on the Lord then he will take you to where you need to be.

[Bible-believer]

Read the Bible daily
Pray daily.
Fellowship with the Lord daily.
Fellowship with the body of Christ


2Tim. 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

2Tim.3:14,15,16
But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

So you can spiritually discern but not be beguiled. The Lord and the Word is the only one you shall trust with all your heart.

[aron]

C.S. Lewis is pretty awesome. Wouldn't hurt to read his Narnia series, either! He based it off his beliefs as a Christian. I bought the set recently but I haven't touched it :p

I should probably get on that, hehe. They're just gathering dust over on my bookshelf.As far as reading, my most helpful book has been "Psalms and Hebrews: studies in reception" edited by Gert Steyn.

https://www.amazon.com/Psalms-Hebrews-Studies-Reception-Testament/dp/0567198847

What it did was open up the idea that the books of the NT based their revelation of Jesus Christ on the books of the OT. Growing up in the Protestant church, singing hymns by Cowper and Newton, Wesley and Watts, I never read the Psalms. They were considered passe, antiquated, part of the "old" testament which was now superseded. A relic, a historical curiosity of a well-intentioned law-keeper.

This theme was continued by Nee and Lee, with their supposed "high peak" visions. Lee said the psalmist suffered from "natural and fallen concepts" and told us, "Don't sing the psalms" and mocked the LC members singing a song. He said, "Sing songs from the NT"... but the NT says to sing psalms!! Paul twice told the saints (Ephesians and Philippians) to sing the psalms, saying they would be filled with spirit, that they were the words of Christ! Why? Because, "These things were written concerning me".

So the Steyn book really opened up this new world to me. And I daresay there are many others. I just give this as a representative example.

As far as fellowship, if you have a vision from God, that guides your life, the fellowship will follow. If you go into a fellowship seeking a vision, you will get their vision. That's exactly what Nee and Lee did - they gave us a 'merchandising' vision, which made merchandise of us. I became a cipher in the Lee family business, to be "exactly identical" with the others, "a tape recorder", to persuade my friends to read the Rainbow Booklets etc.

If you were in the Titus Chu spinoff I daresay it was the same thing. Your personality was to mirror that of TC. Instead of Christ as your person, it was TC. Now, don't walk away from that and take Pastor Bob as your person. You have a journey in front of you, with the Holy Spirit, the Word, your neighbours, some of whom are believers and some not. If you make an effort to cooperate, the Holy Spirit will come alongside in wondrous ways. The Paraclete is here - you just have to take a step, by faith, and the Paraclete shows up.

[Unregistered]

If there is any book that I would recommend reading outside the Bible, I say please read this book:

Fraudulent Authority: Pastors Who Seek to Rule Over Others, by Wade Burleson.

It helped me to understand what I was just a part of in the Recovery, and not to make the same mistakes again. Finding real shepherds who care and love is very difficult and frustrating, but don’t give up hope, God will place you into the right situation.

Couple of quotes from it:



“Finally, I would like to acknowledge those of you who have suffered under horrible spiritual abuse and didn’t know how to get out from under it. I could write story after story of people who’ve written to me about their trauma of abuse by authoritarian pastors who act as if they are God’s vicar on earth. Some pastors seek to control — and sometimes punish — those who oppose God and God’s “ordained authority” on earth, or otherwise known as “the pastor.”

You know your story.

I tell just a couple of stories in this book. My greater purpose is to help you understand how to come out from under abusive spiritual authority, recognizing it as the opposite of biblical Christianity. For all you who love the Bible and God, but question the pastor and the rules of the church, I hope you read and understand Fraudulent Authority so that you can escape spiritual church abuse with clear biblical thinking and a heart filled with grace and understanding of what Christ’s Church should look like.”


“The premise of this book is that the major problem in modern evangelical Christianity is the authoritarianism of evangelical leaders. I have sought to explain how pastors/ elders “twist the Scriptures” and demand “obedience and submission” to this alleged authority. Jesus tells us that that true ‘spiritual leaders’ are only servants, never masters.

Evangelical leaders seem not to be listening to Jesus.
– Source: Burleson, Wade. Fraudulent Authority: Pastors Who Seek to Rule Over Others (p. 36)”



https://www.amazon.ca/dp/1520323441/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=gs2&linkId=e563ee21d77dd8616a9215b603b0f7a4&tag=dutchwaters-20#aw-udpv3-customer-reviews_feature_div

[Unregistered]

If you were in the Titus Chu spinoff I daresay it was the same thing. Your personality was to mirror that of TC. Instead of Christ as your person, it was TC. Now, don't walk away from that and take Pastor Bob as your person. You have a journey in front of you, with the Holy Spirit, the Word, your neighbours, some of whom are believers and some not. If you make an effort to cooperate, the Holy Spirit will come alongside in wondrous ways. The Paraclete is here - you just have to take a step, by faith, and the Paraclete shows up.

Hi, poster here :)
I had questions about being in the TC spin off. It seems like they tried to break away to get out of the whole Witness Lee thing, but I don't think that a the reality? What is happening with the TC spin off because I never understood what we were being taught

[Trapped]

Hi all,
I'm a recent college grad who was in the Titus Chu LC split for 2.5 years. I became a christian shortly before finding the Church, so this was my first big experience with a body of believers. I didn't grow up in church, so I was eager to be involved with anything Jesus once I got saved.

I think eventually the teachings didn't make sense and my fear of the Lord departed because I was focused on serving people over listening to Jesus. I could go on about things, however I just wanted to ask for legitimate guidance on how to go on in my christian walk after this. I'm recovering from alot of false ideas and works based Christianity because of the LC... I'm having a hard time trusting new Churches and don't know how to identify correct teaching. Thanks : )

Hi Unregistered,

Welcome to the forum!

I'm sorry you were in such a grievous mess as the TC split. Any "turmoils" in the LC always leave people hurt, and it's totally to Witness Lee and the LC's shame that all these traumatic things happen.

Two books that helped me a lot were:
-The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse by Johnsen and VanVonderen
-Healing Spiritual Abuse by Ken Blue

Those started to get my head screwed on right about all the crushing and abusive false teachings in the local church.

The other thing that helped me immensely regarding how to identify correct teaching was listening to as many Christian apologists online as I could. Or even Christian vs atheist debates. It was doing that that gave me the tools to identify exactly where the LC teachings were off in the first place. If something doesn't "logically follow" from what the Bible says, then you need to question it to see if it is a true teaching. Or even if a teaching seems to logically follow but just "doesn't make sense" to you.....it's okay, it just means you need to investigate further. Witness Lee and his defense team at DCP use all kinds of logically fallacious and erroneous thinking to come up with the teachings they spread and to defend those teachings. Understanding HOW to think (rather than just being told what to think) and understanding how it is incorrect to draw certain conclusions in certain ways is a huge part of discerning truth from lies or false ideas from true ones.

Note: like in so many things, there are good apologists and bad apologists. The more you listen to, the more it will be easy to discern who is quality or not. The main thing - and this is difficult coming out of the LC - is that it is up to each of us to do the work, read the Bible, and actually think about what we read in the Bible. Blindly trusting anyone about what they say the Bible says is a great way to be led astray.

I'm so glad you have seen the problems in the LC. Having a hard time trusting churches is understandable. Don't beat yourself up, and don't feel like you should already be healed or recovered. It takes more time than any of us would like to recover from a place like the local church. It's normal if you feel untethered or disconnected. You are welcome to post how you are doing here on this forum.

Trapped

[Robert]

Hi all,
I'm a recent college grad who was in the Titus Chu LC split for 2.5 years. I became a christian shortly before finding the Church, so this was my first big experience with a body of believers. I didn't grow up in church, so I was eager to be involved with anything Jesus once I got saved.

I think eventually the teachings didn't make sense and my fear of the Lord departed because I was focused on serving people over listening to Jesus. I could go on about things, however I just wanted to ask for legitimate guidance on how to go on in my christian walk after this. I'm recovering from alot of false ideas and works based Christianity because of the LC... I'm having a hard time trusting new Churches and don't know how to identify correct teaching. Thanks : )

Hello!
My adwise is to not make the same mistake.
Correct teaching is only in Bible.
LR works the same way as JW. You can not read Bible without WL help. Really?
Is there something complicated in Jesus' teaching?
Because You are young, the damages are not big.
Read Bible, pray to the Lord, be honest before Him. Gain Your own experience.
I was there over 20 years and Lord led me and is still leading me.
Do not trust man but only Jesus. Love man but trust Jesus.
Lack of trust does not mean hate or enmities. It also does not mean to be closed to others.
It simply means: do not expect certain things or expect everything.
Look at Jesus. Search for intimate fellowship with Him wherever You join.
Make Bible, Word of Gos part of Your being. Read psalm 119 with prayer as other books as well.
Make many sincere deals with Lord in private conversation, ask Him a lot, read, compare your life with Word of God.
If You had genuine experience of repentance, search for the same first taste of love. Love to God and people.
Only Word of God can lead You and save You from deception...
Would be good to join some believers, but ask Lord for leading.
Do not seek another religion or "church" with healthy teaching.
Just seek fellowship in Holy Spirit with brothers and sisters.
If You'll get even 2 or 3 vital ralationships would be great!
I hope You had at least few friends there. Do not quit all relations just because you are leaving this group. Recognise, who is still open to you.
God belss You!

[Ohio]

Hi, poster here :)
I had questions about being in the TC spin off. It seems like they tried to break away to get out of the whole Witness Lee thing, but I don't think that a the reality? What is happening with the TC spin off because I never understood what we were being taught
Not sure what part of that horribly ugly “divorce” between Anaheim and Cleveland leaders you would like to discuss here.

After thoroughly studying the whole situation with an insider’s viewpoint, I concluded that it was simply a power struggle for the leadership of the Recovery movement. It had been brewing for decades ready to erupt after WL passed.

[aron]

Not sure what part of that horribly ugly “divorce” between Anaheim and Cleveland leaders you would like to discuss here.

After thoroughly studying the whole situation with an insider’s viewpoint, I concluded that it was simply a power struggle for the leadership of the Recovery movement. It had been brewing for decades ready to erupt after WL passed.To summarize, after decades of abject servility to Witness Lee, Titus Chu refused to do the same with the new Anaheim Overlords, aka the Blendeds. The pressing question became, to whom do you kowtow - to Anaheim or to Cleveland? This issue was forced upon the Recovery assemblies in the Great Lakes region: Ohio, Pennsylvania, Michigan, Indiana, Canada. Then followed what post #1 calls the "Titus Chu LC split".

The split wasn't over theology, but allegiance. But the split over allegiance was inculcated by the theology - implicit in every line of WL teaching, and often explicitly stated, was the notion of obedience to "deputy authority". When WL died, that teaching caused Dong and Chu to set themselves apart. They could not lose face to some blended bureaucrat in Anaheim.

[Ohio]

To summarize, after decades of abject servility to Witness Lee, Titus Chu refused to do the same with the new Anaheim Overlords, aka the Blendeds. The pressing question became, to whom do you kowtow - to Anaheim or to Cleveland? This issue was forced upon the Recovery assemblies in the Great Lakes region: Ohio, Pennsylvania, Michigan, Indiana, Canada. Then followed what post #1 calls the "Titus Chu LC split".

The split wasn't over theology, but allegiance. But the split over allegiance was inculcated by the theology - implicit in every line of WL teaching, and often explicitly stated, was the notion of obedience to "deputy authority". When WL died, that teaching caused Dong and Chu to set themselves apart. They could not lose face to some blended bureaucrat in Anaheim.
Well said, aron.

During the split, LSM/DCP operatives from Anaheim came into every Midwest LC to divide us into camps. Both sides told me that I need to "take a stand for the truth." But it was never about the truths of Scripture, rather "whose truth" do I stand for.

The raging conflicts forced many of us to re-examine many Recovery "truths" and practices which were long taken for granted. Paul applauded the Bereans for "examining the scriptures daily to see whether these things were so," (Acts 17.11) and admonished the Thessalonians to "examine everything and hold fast what is good." (I Ths 5.21) This LCD Forum was immensely helpful for this much needed endeavor. Even the many LSM apologists that posted here were beneficial in exposing the many shortcomings and errors in Lee's theology.

Many LC foundational constructs taught by Witness Lee such as, the Minister of the Age, the Ground of Oneness, God's Economy, THE Recovery, the Clergy-Laity system, Covering the Brothers, official church names, musical instruments for worship, etc. were closely examined and found to be wanting. This explains why so many of us decided to leave the Recovery altogether, and separate from both Anaheim and Cleveland. We may have accepted these teachings in our youth, but not any longer. It took some time for us to see the fruit of these teachings, and that fruit was often rotten.

[alwayscurious]

We may have accepted these teachings in our youth, but not any longer. It took some time for us to see the fruit of these teachings, and that fruit was often rotten.

That's a bar right there. Couldn't be more true. As a church kid and in the process of leaving right now, this one echoed.

[aron]

LR works the same way as JW. You can not read Bible without WL help. Really? Is there something complicated in Jesus' teaching?


There are a number of issues, any of which would be alarming, but when put together make this an "avoid at all costs" quasi-Christian personality cult. The first point is seen above: straightforward gospel carried through the centuries, of the resurrection of Jesus from the dead, the promise of redemption and hope of eternal life, and the accompanying command to "Love God, and love one another", then has transmuted into "high peak" and "mystical" writing, supposedly hidden for centuries until the Revelator of the Present Age arrives. That should be a warning right there. Plain text is ignored or dismissed, replaced by arcane and proprietary teaching.

Just seek fellowship in Holy Spirit with brothers and sisters. If You'll get even 2 or 3 vital relationships would be great! I hope You had at least few friends there. Do not quit all relations just because you are leaving this group. Recognise, who is still open to you. Relationships depend on position v/v Group Leader, who's connected to whom. Personal loyalty is required: instead of "love thy neighbour" it's now "love the Church [group] and be one with the Ministry [group leader]". People get love-bombed when they're 17 year-old HS seniors or 18 year-old College freshmen who are "positive" (i.e., naiive, ignorant, trusting), but then once in, and converted and "sold out", then the "training" and "perfecting" begins, i.e. public shaming, exposing, and mental conditioning, all designed to break them down not to trust anyone but the Group and its Leader. There's actually no way to love one's neigbour, whether Christian or unbeliever.

Third: notice how words above are in quotations. There's a coded language, with special internal meanings, hidden from outsiders. Fellowship, for example, isn't a two-way street. It means, going to get directions from the Group Leader.

Fourth issue: Don't think, just "amen" what's spoken... this creates cognitive dissonance, only broken by critical reflection and then critical self-reflection. Notice, for example, that Paul didn't say, "No! That's not God's Economy!" when the Jerusalem Pillars told him to remember the poor. Instead, he replied that he was eager to do so (Gal 2:10). Yet if one reads such verses in their meeting, the Group Leader will pan it. There's supposedly a higher, hidden truth that contravenes plain text. Verses without negative connotation in textual narrative will get such commentary added, if they don't align with the so-called vision.

Similarly, the Group Leader will hold contradictory positions and group members aren't supposed to notice. Watchman Nee had female "apostolic co-workers" but Witness Lee won't allow any. WN wanted local leadership and independent faith communities when still under Western control, but once free, he had them federated under the "Jerusalem Principle." It's a theology of convenience, but please don't notice when it reverses field!

Similarly, in various conferences, WL proposed multiple separate and distinct locations for the "center of the universe": the tree of life, the human spirit, the cross, the throne of God, and the altar. But please, forget about last year's conference and focus on today's message! Again, it looks like make-shift theology of convenience. Whatever is deemed helpful today becomes today's "truth".

Fifth: information control. This group started before the internet, and WL had the only printing press. Now, they're struggling to keep up with information that's leaking publicly.

Sixth: Clear violations of self-interest. WL started Daystar Motor Homes, with his son Timothy as President. Eventually, untold thousands of dollars disappeared, and many church members were told to consider their (non-exempt) investments as a donation. Nobody knows how much Timothy pocketed. Similarly, son Philip was free to repeatedly molest women in the Living Stream Ministry offices as Office Manager. There are plenty of reasons to believe that WN had similar issues of self-interest driving policy and theology. It was a ministry of expedience, all to facilitate the personal interests of the supposed minister and his inner ring.

The above issues (and others) are interlocking, reinforcing each other and holding together. To pull at any one string could cause the whole edifice to come down. That's why any form of examination is forbidden, reflexively labeled as "negativity" and "attack".

[ACuriousFellow]

There are a number of issues, any of which would be alarming, but when put together make this an "avoid at all costs" quasi-Christian personality cult...

The above issues (and others) are interlocking, reinforcing each other and holding together. To pull at any one string could cause the whole edifice to come down. That's why any form of examination is forbidden, reflexively labeled as "negativity" and "attack".

I definitely felt a bit of PTSD reading through your points. Particularly 1-4 and that last paragraph.

[UntoHim]

...I just wanted to ask for legitimate guidance on how to go on in my Christian walk after this. I'm recovering from a lot of false ideas and works based Christianity because of the LC... I'm having a hard time trusting new Churches and don't know how to identify correct teaching. Thanks : )

If you were in the Titus Chu spinoff I daresay it was the same thing. Your personality was to mirror that of TC. Instead of Christ as your person, it was TC. Now, don't walk away from that and take Pastor Bob as your person. You have a journey in front of you, with the Holy Spirit, the Word, your neighbours, some of whom are believers and some not. If you make an effort to cooperate, the Holy Spirit will come alongside in wondrous ways. The Paraclete is here - you just have to take a step, by faith, and the Paraclete shows up.

aron has given you some very good advise here. If you take heed to advise like this you will eventually do well, and hopefully save yourself from going from the "fire" of The Local Church into the "frying pan" of another dysfunctional (albeit not as dangerous) Christian sect. I wish I could have read some advise like this back 25 years ago when I was in the throes of trying to untangle my heart and mind from the all the tentacles of the Local Church of Witness Lee.

As far as "identifying correct teaching" I would say that you have to learn a new language. The language (aka: Lingo) of the churches under Titus Chu is based upon the person and work of Titus Chu, which itself is based upon the person and work of Witness Lee. In order to identify correct teaching you will ,have to "unlearn" the language of The Local Church, and take up the language of the Bible, which is based upon the Person and Work of Jesus Christ. This is where Holy Spirit, the Paraclete comes in - He will assist you in learning the language of the Bible. The Word is Truth, and the Holy Spirit will "guide you into all truth" (John 16:13)

Then when you encounter a new church or group of Christians or ministry you will be well-equipped to discern if they have correct and healthy teaching among them. You will be able to understand the language that they speak. The vocabulary will be familiar. Of course I am painting with a very broad brush here, and it will take some time for you to learn the language, but you will be on the right track.

May the Lord continue to encourage and bless you as you seek Him and His face.
-

[aron]

Then when you encounter a new church or group of Christians or ministry you will be well-equipped to discern if they have correct and healthy teaching among them. You will be able to understand the language that they speak.

Jesus said, "My sheep hear my voice; I call them by name, and they recognise my call". First you have to get the "voice out of your head" which is the reflexive LC-speak. Not easy at all. Takes time, effort, and work. It is a very powerful mind-control group. They literally reprogram your thoughts.

Next, you have to work hard (time, effort, consideration, reflection) to cultivate the voice of the Shepherd in the Word. He said, "These things were written concerning me".

If you do this, you have a chance to stay on the path. If you don't have a strong internal sense of the Word, the voice speaking within you, there are just too many Lee-like wannabes out there. They alone have the truth, everyone needs to listen to them. Or else, There is no truth, just do your best. Or some of a hundred variants of personal attitudes blocking the Word from speaking forth. Everyone has an agenda.