Church kid from the 80s (Anaheim)

[bettercountry]

My family migrated to Anaheim in 1976 and I grew up in the local church there from that time until the late 80s when the “storm” caused so many to leave, myself included. Although I whole-heartedly agree with the general consensus of this forum that there were/are many errors in the teachings and culture of Nee/Lee/LR/LC/LSM, there were undeniably many experiences I had, especially prior to 1986, that were extremely positive. There were many sweet and rich times of fellowship, teaching, prayer and singing, and there were undoubtedly, many genuine believers who played a huge role in my spiritual journey in coming to know Christ as my personal Savior. And I know that many others had similar positive experiences as myself. Perhaps, one would suggest…the Holy Spirit graciously was present and moving DESPITE the many problems that existed even prior to 1986 in the LR/LC. But, I think that could be said of any and all churches, this side of heaven. Whether in our personal life or in a church setting, it is the UNMERITED FAVOR of God through His Spirit that He bestows upon us because of the work and person of Jesus. That’s because we are so imperfect, even in those times when we think we are righteous.

Of course, when the numerous downright heretical and fleshly/demonic teachings and practices in the LR/LC started arising ~1986, it seemed that whatever presence and blessing of the Holy Spirit that was still in the Lord’s Recovery up that point all but dissipated. Even as a young person, I clearly felt this. The richness and sweetness was gone. Again, I’m not saying that prior to 1986 there weren’t problems and doctrinal errors. But, the nature of the LR completely changed in ~1986 in that the general goal of WL/LSM was no longer Christ.

Below are some of my major experiences from about 1986 until I eventually left the LR/LC:
- Around 1986, in various church meetings, I began to hear talk from WL about the “New Way”. Even as a 14 year-old, I remember having a very uneasy feeling inwardly about this New Way. The general impression and experience I had was that there was a shift from seeking Christ to something other than Christ.
- A huge by-product of the New Way was that personal testimonies and experiences of Christ were now frowned upon and discouraged. Instead, speaking about the New Way or regurgitating texts from an LSM publication was now what gained approval.
- The New Way resulted in church meetings — even Lord’s Table meetings — being moved from the meeting hall to various homes (this, in and of itself, was probably not necessarily a bad thing….but the purpose and focus of this was completely wrong) (also, another effect was that many of the YP gradually lost touch with each other and grew discouraged and no longer attended meetings)
- My involvement in the door-knocking movement. I went on a few door-knocking sessions, and every time, I felt sick to my stomach by the time we returned. The way we just memorized and regurgitated the “Mystery of Human Life” pamphlet and the insincere/love-less conversations and forceful baptisms….with the overall focus on numbers. Writing down numbers and celebrating with other teams on a public bulletin board when we all announced our numbers/achievements. Disgusting.
- The ugly Lord’s Day morning meetings. The shouting and terrible arguments during the meetings. So loud that the children downstairs could hear the thunderous yelling of the adults. I know…because I was often serving in “Sunday School” (or “Children’s Meeting, as we called it) and had to try to distract or explain what was happening to the kids.
- The 1987 Young People’s conference in Taiwan. I attended. We dressed up like junior FTT’rs and essentially attended a conference that was just full of focus on WL and “the ministry” and on numbers. And how WE could bring the Lord back because WE were soooo special. Fortunately, I was able to be mostly preoccupied in doing video work during the conference so I could either be assigned to do camera-work during the meetings or hide out in a tech room.
- The 1987 YP’s conference in Irving, which immediately followed the Taipei training. I don’t remember who all the speakers are, but they were essentially the same ones that spoke in Taipei. I remember Jake Jacobsen and Dan Towle being a couple of the main speakers. For reasons unknown to myself at the time, I was starting to get very angry. Angry even at serving ones to the point I got in a face to face argument with one. This was so far from who I was by nature…and it left me shocked at myself. I didn’t know at the time why I was acting out like this, but of course, I later realized it was because I was conflicted. My conscience was not at peace. Deep inside, I knew that the only community I had ever known and the place/people that had once brought me the greatest feeling of joy and purpose would be something I would have to relinquish. My parents had already left the LC by this time. But, for the first time, I began to have deep personal conviction.
- The 1987 Irving baptisms into the New Way. Regrettably, I participated. Horrendous. I wish I could take that back, but fortunately, the Lord knows every person’s heart. I repented and I believe the Lord forgave me. I know there were others who, that night, whether they participated or refrained, came to the same crossroads and realization that I did, in terms of the dark place the Lord’s Recovery had become.
- Spring 1988 SoCal YP’s retreat at Pilgrim Pines - continued and magnified teaching and endorsement of the New Way by the same leading brothers. A large portion of one particular meeting was dedicated to going around the entire room — to every attendee (several hundred) — and counting one by one — what essentially was conveyed as a vow to become a full-timer upon graduation from college. Pressured/forceful.
- YPGs - Youth Propagation Groups. I was briefly in one. There were even songs we sang about YPGs. One I remember in particular said something like “500,000 you will see; next year there will be in YPG”. Again, focus on numbers. The YP in meetings would get excited when the speaker(s) would ramble off potential numbers that would be saved through YPG. I don’t remember anything we did whenever a YPG meeting took place other than burnings. I remember going to a friend’s house for a YPG “meeting” and we would just burn what we deemed to be worldly possessions (continuation of a practice that started in Irvine 1987). This, again, not a bad thing if done from the right heart. In fact, a very good thing if done from the proper heart and with the right conviction from Christ. What we did was so far removed from that. It was all a show.

By the Lord’s grace, He gave me the eventual understanding and discernment (and strength) to leave the LR/LC completely by around 1990. Because the LC had given me my source of identity and the only place I had ever known in terms of a community, it took me a while to fully walk away, but I eventually did. It was extremely difficult and painful, to say the least. Painful in human terms, but of course, it was the right and necessary thing to do. Ultimately, the Lord led me out because of His grace and mercy.

Having said all this, however……in some ways, I feel this is not totally a “lived happily ever after” story, unfortunately. Although my walk with Christ has deepened tremendously after leaving the LC, there were enough good experiences/memories I had while in the LC (prior to 1986) that has left part of my soul longing for some of those things. Especially since these are things that I have not experienced in the churches I have been a part of since I left the LC, or at least not to the level I experienced in the LC. Things like open and corporate singing, prayer, participation in sharing, etc. And, even some of the rich exposition of the Word. To me, they were definitely a foretaste of what heaven must be like, and because of that, I miss it dearly and long for it. Which is, in a broad sense, I guess sort of the underlying theme of my nick/handle. We, who are in Christ, in so many ways “long for a better country”, like those in Hebrews 11. On earth, even at its best, we still sigh and groan in many ways. And that’s to be expected.

I also grieve with the fact that I lost communication with many people I still care about deeply. And, even if there is some occasion that causes our paths to cross, fellowship is difficult, primarily because of the belief by LC members that those outside the LR/LC are lost or rebellious, and some would even say, unsaved. The feeling for me (when I see someone from the LC) is like attending a family reunion, but not being able to connect with anyone. Some may treat by shunning. Or, others may treat me with kindness, but in a pitied way. If only I could just have genuine heart-to-heart conversations, about life and about Christ.

Most of all though, regarding the LR/LC, the feelings of sorrow I still have pertain mostly to this — I grieve for those who are still trapped in the system and especially those who know they should leave, but for some reason, feel they cannot. I personally know some in such a situation currently. Hopefully, for them, in some mysterious way, perhaps the Lord can even use my testimony as an encouragement.

[countmeworthy]

Hi bettercountry,

I was quite moved by your testimony/ experience in the LC/LR. I totally agree that before the 80s, the Spirit of the Lord was strong and the fellowship among the saints was enjoyable, nurturing and sweet. I got saved in 1975 through brothers at work who were in the church in San Diego. We were a “young peoples church”. Most of us in our early twenties.

By late 1977, early 1978, I felt the Spirit of the Lord departing. We boasted on not being legalistic, but by 1977, all the “good” brothers were wearing white shirts, skinny ties and super short hair. That’s how we identified a “good brother”. Most “good” sisters wore doilies at the meetings.

Then came the change from “ Sunday” to “the Lord’s day”. Don’t get caught saying “Sunday” or you’d get bombarded with “O lord Jesus” from every direction.

Then we became “the Lord’s Recovery”. I don’t think that bothered me as much as saying “the Lord’s day”, since all the days of the week are named after pagan idols. Such legalism.


I slowly started breaking away by 1978. By 1980 I was completely out and like you…it was tough but the Holy Spirit of Jesus got me through.

I remember going to a few meetings in Anaheim and boy did I strain my ears to understand Lee speak. :D (To be fair, I have to strain my ears to understand my Vietnamese next door neighbors speak too. :)

You know what I miss about the LC back in the day, the psalms and the tunes to the Word of God. I wonder if the still sing the psalms. No matter…I still do.


I hope you are doing well.

[UtahGiant]

Then we became “the Lord’s Recovery”. I don’t think that bothered me as much as saying “the Lord’s day”, since all the days of the week are named after pagan idols. Such legalism.


I find this interesting. So the name “The Lord’s Recovery” wasn’t something that was there at the start? What was it called then?

[Nell]

I find this interesting. So the name “The Lord’s Recovery” wasn’t something that was there at the start? What was it called then?

UtahGiant—

Glad you asked. It was previously called The Local Church or The Church. Later, many shortened it to the “LC”. As I recall, the “Lord’s recovery” or “the recovery”, was not really intended to become a name. Lee frequently described his “work” as teachings and truths having been “recovered” by Nee and himself. This reference happened so often in Lee’s speaking that this “recovered truths” notion seemed to morph into an informal common name, “the recovery”, by the membership. They basically attributed the collection of Nee/Lee teachings as having been “recovered” by Nee and Lee. This thought further morphed into “the Lord’s Recovery.”

To me, “the Lord’s Recovery” is a cringeworthy moniker for a collection of teachings on which the Lord has not placed His name. On the contrary, many of these “recovered” teachings can and have been proven false on this forum and many other places for years.

Many of these so-called “recovered” false interpretations of Scripture are borderline if not full-on heretical. My opinion…the moniker “The Lord’s Recovery”, out of deference to the Lord Himself, the moniker should end. I have never used this moniker myself and would like to see it “go away”.

I’m obviously seriously opinionated on this matter. :)

Nell

[Nell]

..
Having said all this, however……in some ways, I feel this is not totally a “lived happily ever after” story, unfortunately. Although my walk with Christ has deepened tremendously after leaving the LC, there were enough good experiences/memories I had while in the LC (prior to 1986) that has left part of my soul longing for some of those things. Especially since these are things that I have not experienced in the churches I have been a part of since I left the LC, or at least not to the level I experienced in the LC. Things like open and corporate singing, prayer, participation in sharing, etc. And, even some of the rich exposition of the Word. To me, they were definitely a foretaste of what heaven must be like, and because of that, I miss it dearly and long for it. Which is, in a broad sense, I guess sort of the underlying theme of my nick/handle. We, who are in Christ, in so many ways “long for a better country”, like those in Hebrews 11. On earth, even at its best, we still sigh and groan in many ways. And that’s to be expected....


bettercountry--
Thank you so much for sharing your testimony/history with us.

So much to reply to, but for now, I want to agree with you wholeheartedly on this part of your post.

The rich word is what "captured" me, too. It was truth. That's why it was so rich. As a result, since the truth does not return void, it was this same rich word of truth that helped me to see that something was not right there. Something had changed. The truth was no longer allowed to manifesting itself. The very truth that "got me in," "got me out!" The early truth I heard, when it was no longer there, helped me to leave.

The big mistake was to think that this truth came as a result of Lee’s teachings, instead of from God himself.

I'm reminded of this quote:
“The truth is like a lion; you don’t have to defend it. Let it loose; it will defend itself.” ― Augustine of Hippo

I'm still in contact with many who left the Local Church years ago. There is an eternal gratitude among us as well as fellowship.

Again, thank you for your testimony.

Nell

[countmeworthy]

Amen Nell. I agree wholeheartedly.

Thank you both for sharing.
God bless and protect us all.

[bettercountry]

Nell - Absolutely agree with your point about truth. When the pure and unadulterated truth of GOD is spoken (which is actually the only real truth in the universe), then it is always glorious. The person who speaks/conveys the truth is so secondary. The important part is the truth itself, because it speaks of God. And if the Spirit of that true God resides IN US, we will be able to discern and affirm the things that are true.

So, yes, when the Lord revealed certain truths to WL and others in the LC during my time there, it was something that was simply precious. The level of insight and the richness was so wonderful.

So, my stance about the LC is that I’m not going to throw out the baby with the bath-water.

On a sad note, it was interesting to see the effects that happened to the young people in Anaheim when WL and the LC started its stark deviation from the truth in the 80s. Some left Christianity at large. Others may have continued to attend meetings, but gradually started to immerse themselves more in the things of the world. One experience I had that scarred me….even to this day….is attending a gathering of young people (and some serving ones) at a home….and it was essentially a worldly party. Drinking and dancing. No fellowship, nothing spiritual at all. Seeing my one-time junior high leader participate in the drinking, etc…really shook me up. I stood off to the side with a few others and watched in amazement and horror as we wondered, “where are we???” and “who are these people that we thought we knew???”.

The point is, whenever anyone (individual-level or corporate/church) deviates from the truth, you will eventually see its ugly “fruit”.

[JJ]

Having said all this, however……in some ways, I feel this is not totally a “lived happily ever after” story, unfortunately. Although my walk with Christ has deepened tremendously after leaving the LC, there were enough good experiences/memories I had while in the LC (prior to 1986) that has left part of my soul longing for some of those things. Especially since these are things that I have not experienced in the churches I have been a part of since I left the LC, or at least not to the level I experienced in the LC.

Thanks for sharing bettercountry.

I share your sentiments about “not a happily ever after story”outside the LR. I have yet to see a Christian group practice 1 Cor 12-14 where gifts of the Spirit are allowed free reign with discernment, love, and order. We had the “open floor” freedom in the LC before the mid-80’s (though often lacking in gift, discernment, love, and/or order) that is rare outside the LC except in small groups.

I am biding my time in a community church where small groups and service opportunities have the most freedom for exercising gifts, but the Holy Spirit is constrained in the larger meetings where ordained ministers mostly command the floor and ordinary folks like me can only sing along and listen.

When I see 1 Cor 12-14 practiced even in big meetings somewhere, I’ll be happy to join in.

JJ

[bettercountry]

I share your sentiments about “not a happily ever after story”outside the LR. I have yet to see a Christian group practice 1 Cor 12-14 where gifts of the Spirit are allowed free reign with discernment, love, and order. We had the “open floor” freedom in the LC before the mid-80’s (though often lacking in gift, discernment, love, and/or order) that is rare outside the LC except in small groups.

I am biding my time in a community church where small groups and service opportunities have the most freedom for exercising gifts, but the Holy Spirit is constrained in the larger meetings where ordained ministers mostly command the floor and ordinary folks like me can only sing along and listen.

When I see 1 Cor 12-14 practiced even in big meetings somewhere, I’ll be happy to join in.

JJ


Very well said. This is exactly my feeling and experience.

[Trapped]

Welcome to the forum, bettercountry!

Thanks for sharing your testimony - what a journey!

Can I ask a question (of you or anyone) that has bugged me for a while? Hope this doesn't hit anyone wrong; I'm just trying to understand.

I'm a church kid and my personal view is that the local church has been damaging for the entire time I was in it. However, I hear many people waxing nostalgic over their time in the local church in the 1970s, about how free and flowing and wonderful a time it was.

What I don't understand is I have come across people who were in OTHER groups around that time who also say the same thing. Is it appropriate at all to chalk some of this atmosphere up to the charismatic movement and the Jesus movement of the 1960s and 1970s, as opposed to some particular specialness of the local church that some seem to still be waiting on to relive again?

I'm not asking in order to deny anyone's feelings. I'm just asking because I'm trying to square away if the local church was rotten from the start or not. It doesn't line up with what I have read in the ministry or of what I have heard of Witness Lee's character and destruction prior to coming to the U.S. that the local church would ever have been considered a pure or good group to join, even if it might have felt good at the time. I just wonder if the euphoric happiness people report having back then was just unawareness of what was really going on, etc... It's striking to me that many people still seem to be wishing for what they had 50 years ago, and I'm just trying to understand if the standard they are wishing for is the standard the Bible sets forth.

I mean, I can think of numerous enjoyable times I had with the young people and trips we went on and lots of time in various saints homes, etc.....but it's like it all became fake and deceptive as I saw the truth about what was really going on. The constant "open homes" for example, actually has some destructive elements because it meant that family boundaries were not respected by saints. Open homes are wonderful for students and floating saints, but very difficult for the couples who have the open home that is invaded and who basically have a stream of people using them day after day. So, as much as I liked it sometimes, I wouldn't pine for that kind of open home situation again because I now know that it was an unhealthy set up in the local church, etc.

Although, as I say all that, I am reminded that numerous times when I interact with people at the church I now attend, at the end of the conversation I am always waiting internally to get that "lunch invite" that happened so often in the LC.....and it usually never comes anymore. The LC had more of a "doing life together" vibe, which was really nice, but again, too often it meant that spouses and kids were being neglected as a consequence. And I'm not sure how much of it is just the love bombing to keep you trapped in with the social connections so you can't leave, or how much of it is real. However real it is, though, is entirely predicated on your acceptance of Witness Lee and his doctrines, so....love based on the acceptance of lies isn't real love.

I can't sort it all out.

Anyway, thanks for any insight.

Trapped

[Nell]

...
I'm a church kid and my personal view is that the local church has been damaging for the entire time I was in it. However, I hear many people waxing nostalgic over their time in the local church in the 1970s, about how free and flowing and wonderful a time it was.

Good points Trapped,
I was thinking the same thing as I read through this topic and looked at my own experiences. My experience of a long time ago is nowhere near the way it was when you were growing up. Even so, what I experienced in "the good old days" didn't last long. I'm not nostalgic for the "good old days" but I do acknowledge these days did exist. It seems there weren't any "good old days" for you guys.

I recall my prayer "Lord please don't make me go back..."

What I don't understand is I have come across people who were in OTHER groups around that time who also say the same thing. Is it appropriate at all to chalk some of this atmosphere up to the charismatic movement and the Jesus movement of the 1960s and 1970s, as opposed to some particular specialness of the local church that some seem to still be waiting on to relive again?Yes. Absolutely. I believe the atmosphere of the time, the "charismatic movement, Jesus movement" made the goings on in the early day LC easier to accept.

I'm not asking in order to deny anyone's feelings. I'm just asking because I'm trying to square away if the local church was rotten from the start or not. It doesn't line up with what I have read in the ministry or of what I have heard of Witness Lee's character and destruction prior to coming to the U.S. that the local church would ever have been considered a pure or good group to join, even if it might have felt good at the time. I just wonder if the euphoric happiness people report having back then was just unawareness of what was really going on, etc... It's striking to me that many people still seem to be wishing for what they had 50 years ago, and I'm just trying to understand if the standard they are wishing for is the standard the Bible sets forth.I don't know if it was "rotten from the start or not" either. I tend to think that the things that were genuine were greatly usurped by God's enemy...much as Eve was deceived in the garden.

I mean, I can think of numerous enjoyable times I had with the young people and trips we went on and lots of time in various saints homes, etc.....but it's like it all became fake and deceptive as I saw the truth about what was really going on. The constant "open homes" for example, actually has some destructive elements because it meant that family boundaries were not respected by saints. Open homes are wonderful for students and floating saints, but very difficult for the couples who have the open home that is invaded and who basically have a stream of people using them day after day. So, as much as I liked it sometimes, I wouldn't pine for that kind of open home situation again because I now know that it was an unhealthy set up in the local church, etc.Right again. What you describe, even though it might be pleasant for awhile, is not "normal". It was, as you say, unhealthy.

Although, as I say all that, I am reminded that numerous times when I interact with people at the church I now attend, at the end of the conversation I am always waiting internally to get that "lunch invite" that happened so often in the LC.....and it usually never comes anymore. The LC had more of a "doing life together" vibe, which was really nice, but again, too often it meant that spouses and kids were being neglected as a consequence. And I'm not sure how much of it is just the love bombing to keep you trapped in with the social connections so you can't leave, or how much of it is real. However real it is, though, is entirely predicated on your acceptance of Witness Lee and his doctrines, so....love based on the acceptance of lies isn't real love.The social aspect is powerful...more so than we could imagine. And you're right, social and family acceptance is directly linked with "the ministry" and Lee himself. Often, too powerful to resist. Leaving would hurt too much, as many testimonies on this forum state. If you leave, you lose your parents, your family and your friends.

Further, the LC tried/tries to substitute the social ties and "the brothers", for a relationship with God. With herds of people running through the house on a regular basis, parenting the children becomes secondary.

I can't sort it all out.

Anyway, thanks for any insight.

Trapped


Nell

[bettercountry]

Trapped - I think the heart of the question you raise is excellent and a very fair point. My initial response would be that there were most certainly elements of what you're saying (e.g. charismatic movement of the general era) that play into some of my nostalgia. However, for me at least, I know it goes far deeper than that. Over the years, I have gone through a similar personal exercise numerous times of trying to separate the sheer emotional aspects of what I miss versus the more meaningful spiritual reasons. And, what I've come away with -- and with much personal clarity -- is that the heart of what I long for (and what is absent for the most part in Christianity at large) are the deep spiritual TRUTHS (yes, we must weed through and decipher from the many lies/heresies) that I came to know in the LC, as well as the freedom in Christ for all members to freely participate, whether in small or large settings.

Let me give you an example of what I mean by the deeper spiritual truths. At the risk of offending many members/readers of this forum, I will say that there are many hymns in the LC hymnal, even many that were written by WL, that contain rich truths. Some examples would be "In the holiest place", "Gracious Lord, Thy Name, 'I AM' is", "I've found the One of peerless worth". Precious TRUTHS about who GOD/CHRIST is. No glory in what I'm saying goes to WL. It all goes to God Himself, because the truths that are spoken of in those hymns (just an example) are FACTS about who He is.

This is also an example of what I meant in my initial post about not throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Humanly, whenever we come to see/know anyone that does something as egregious as WL did, especially from the mid-80s onward (but, yes, even before that timeframe), it's natural and maybe excusable to dismiss ALL of what that person did/said. But, sorry, I can never agree with that stance. We all are unrighteous to some degree, and no matter what degree that is, that means we all don't deserve ANYONE listening to ANY of us about ANYTHING. So, what does that leave us with? Unless we come to the ability to look beyond the person (with all his/her flaws) and just look for truths, then we will be prone to live out the rest of our days in the "monastery" of our own pride. Of course, there are cases where certain individuals should be totally shunned, but for me.....WL is not in that category, specifically some of the things that were taught prior to the 80s. Again, I know I'm ruffling a LOT of feathers here, and I really don't want to get into this argument.

Point is, even with those simple examples of the hymns I mentioned -- which if you carefully read the lyrics -- are not necessarily tremendously deep in terms of Christian doctrine, but.....unfortunately, at least in the churches I have been a part of in the past 30+ years, nothing even comes close to something like that.

Anyway, I am not very eloquent, so most likely, the heart of what I'm trying to say is being poorly communicated.

[Trapped]

Trapped - I think the heart of the question you raise is excellent and a very fair point. My initial response would be that there were most certainly elements of what you're saying (e.g. charismatic movement of the general era) that play into some of my nostalgia. However, for me at least, I know it goes far deeper than that. Over the years, I have gone through a similar personal exercise numerous times of trying to separate the sheer emotional aspects of what I miss versus the more meaningful spiritual reasons. And, what I've come away with -- and with much personal clarity -- is that the heart of what I long for (and what is absent for the most part in Christianity at large) are the deep spiritual TRUTHS (yes, we must weed through and decipher from the many lies/heresies) that I came to know in the LC, as well as the freedom in Christ for all members to freely participate, whether in small or large settings.

Let me give you an example of what I mean by the deeper spiritual truths. At the risk of offending many members/readers of this forum, I will say that there are many hymns in the LC hymnal, even many that were written by WL, that contain rich truths. Some examples would be "In the holiest place", "Gracious Lord, Thy Name, 'I AM' is", "I've found the One of peerless worth". Precious TRUTHS about who GOD/CHRIST is. No glory in what I'm saying goes to WL. It all goes to God Himself, because the truths that are spoken of in those hymns (just an example) are FACTS about who He is.

This is also an example of what I meant in my initial post about not throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Humanly, whenever we come to see/know anyone that does something as egregious as WL did, especially from the mid-80s onward (but, yes, even before that timeframe), it's natural and maybe excusable to dismiss ALL of what that person did/said. But, sorry, I can never agree with that stance. We all are unrighteous to some degree, and no matter what degree that is, that means we all don't deserve ANYONE listening to ANY of us about ANYTHING. So, what does that leave us with? Unless we come to the ability to look beyond the person (with all his/her flaws) and just look for truths, then we will be prone to live out the rest of our days in the "monastery" of our own pride. Of course, there are cases where certain individuals should be totally shunned, but for me.....WL is not in that category, specifically some of the things that were taught prior to the 80s. Again, I know I'm ruffling a LOT of feathers here, and I really don't want to get into this argument.

Point is, even with those simple examples of the hymns I mentioned -- which if you carefully read the lyrics -- are not necessarily tremendously deep in terms of Christian doctrine, but.....unfortunately, at least in the churches I have been a part of in the past 30+ years, nothing even comes close to something like that.

Anyway, I am not very eloquent, so most likely, the heart of what I'm trying to say is being poorly communicated.

bettercountry,

Well, consider my feathers ruffled! :)

Since you don't want to get into the argument (fair enough), I'll just say that my short response is this - if someone is unrighteous and has flaws, he's human. But if there is a long-term pattern of unrighteousness, combined with cover ups, ruining of lives, refusal to acknowledge and confess and repent and change even in light of half a century of people speaking the truth of the problems, as well as the creation and preservation of a system that is directly responsible for numerous suicides......I think there are grounds to dismiss the person as a whole. It's the lack of repentance that is the sticking point, not the mistakes. We all make mistakes. But we all don't go burning people's lives down and doubling down on Scripture twisting in order to continue to cover up those mistakes. The famous apologist Ravi Zacharias was very eloquent and stated Christian truths in ways that wowed many people, and yet....in light of his life and behavior, I'm not going to waste another second listening to a thing he said.

I've looked at the hymns you mentioned, and while they are eloquent and heavily descriptive, I guess I just have to have been there to understand the draw. The truths found in those hymns are readily found in the Bible as well as in Christian churches, even if they are not gathered together and consolidated in such a way.

Your comment about the freedom for all members to freely participate strikes me as funny, considering the "freedom" in the local church is to only re-speak what Witness Lee spoke and nothing else. However, maybe 50 years ago it was not like that. Additionally, the 10-day long trainings and various conferences in the LC were just that - one man speaking. I guess I don't understand why people "complain" about a pastor speaking for 30 minutes on a Sunday when Lee spoke for, what......1.5 hours times 3 meetings per day times 10 days = 45 hours at the trainings?

Again, maybe it was totally different for a few years in the 70s. I believe what you are saying, but I guess I still don't quite get it. It's okay though. Thanks for your response and hope you stick around!

Trapped

[Trapped]

Good points Trapped,
I was thinking the same thing as I read through this topic and looked at my own experiences. My experience of a long time ago is nowhere near the way it was when you were growing up. Even so, what I experienced in "the good old days" didn't last long. I'm not nostalgic for the "good old days" but I do acknowledge these days did exist. It seems there weren't any "good old days" for you guys.

Nell

Whatever it was it just seems to have really made an impact. Many people still look back to those days as something special. Oftentimes what they do talk about is just what bettercountry and JJ said, which is that everyone was allowed to speak, etc. But I don't know what this "should" look like in the present day Christian church. Did the LC have the "everyone has" right, as far as how they carried it out? It doesn't seem like it because these posters even admitted they didn't. The gift/discernment/love/order was still apparently missing. Okay....so if all those are missing, the LC wasn't doing it right I guess. But people still long for the wrongly carried out thing.

Again, not trying to step on anyone's toes or experiences. I just haven't experienced that aspect myself and those who speak about it also don't seem to be able to put their finger on it either. So I'm just trying to sort through what people are able to explain to try to figure it out myself.

Trapped

[Ohio]

Can I ask a question (of you or anyone) that has bugged me for a while? Hope this doesn't hit anyone wrong; I'm just trying to understand.

I'm a church kid and my personal view is that the local church has been damaging for the entire time I was in it. However, I hear many people waxing nostalgic over their time in the local church in the 1970s, about how free and flowing and wonderful a time it was.

What I don't understand is I have come across people who were in OTHER groups around that time who also say the same thing. Is it appropriate at all to chalk some of this atmosphere up to the charismatic movement and the Jesus movement of the 1960s and 1970s, as opposed to some particular specialness of the local church that some seem to still be waiting on to relive again?

Yes, you are right to credit all the LC blessing to a move of the Spirit of God commonly called the “Jesus Movement.”

It is my view that the loss of that blessing was mostly due to WL’s pride, thinking that he was the source of all the blessing.

[Just Saying]

I hate to spoil the party of 1960s, 70s and 80s, but there is nothing that speaks more louder than the culture and the social environment of those days. Starting with the hippie movement, the sex movement, the transcendental meditation movement (promoted and displayed by Beatles and other big time celebrities), the local church became infested with the world beyond any possible realms. It was cool to be “drunk with the spirit”, be seeking a living by sight rather than faith. The charismatic, experienced based reality was blinding people especially in the “Sodom and Gomorrah” of our times, which is the state of California, where Recovery originated from. Let’s be real here, Witness Lee would have been run out of every town with the tail between his legs, if he went and spoke at some true Christian Bible believing town in the USA at that time. San Francisco? Southern California? Wow! Great spots to introduce jesus that gets your feeling flowing, your heart pumping at the assurance of the fact that you are “the people “, you are “ tha church”! You are the few, the select, the only expression of God in the USA!

So if you think that that time wasn’t what the people are still searching for, long for, before they got figured out by other Christian to be nothing but a counterfeit, then please proceed to wax poetically about it. Claim as it was some special time of the spirit flowing, rather that calling it for what it was, a delusional way to fit in the society that was seeking to achieve the experience of God by any way necessary, including by branding all other Christian groups as dead religion, whore of Babylon, make yourselves feel as if you have arrived at the heights of the revelation of “the New Testament church”, and I can go on and on.
There isn’t anything real there now or was there anything real at anytime, nether here in the USA or elsewhere in the world as these man claims to have had.

Sorry for bursting bubbles, but there is nothing that’s there to be proud of, IF you honest and genuine about it, as a former member of the LC. My opinion, my belief, and my assessment of the movement that I gave more than quarter of my life too, and spent quite some time studying after my exit. Anyone can pick at things in the current form of churches, and I’m in the same boat as most people commented here, but I rather be there, than be at the altar of men, who have done and shown nothing but who they truly are, a counterfeit group, absent of any kind of true fruits of the Spirit, having a form of godliness but denying its power.

Thanks

[Ohio]

This is also an example of what I meant in my initial post about not throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Humanly, whenever we come to see/know anyone that does something as egregious as WL did, especially from the mid-80s onward (but, yes, even before that timeframe), it's natural and maybe excusable to dismiss ALL of what that person did/said. But, sorry, I can never agree with that stance. We all are unrighteous to some degree, and no matter what degree that is, that means we all don't deserve ANYONE listening to ANY of us about ANYTHING. So, what does that leave us with? Unless we come to the ability to look beyond the person (with all his/her flaws) and just look for truths, then we will be prone to live out the rest of our days in the "monastery" of our own pride. Of course, there are cases where certain individuals should be totally shunned, but for me.....WL is not in that category, specifically some of the things that were taught prior to the 80s. Again, I know I'm ruffling a LOT of feathers here, and I really don't want to get into this argument.

And, I am not very eloquent, so most likely, the heart of what I'm trying to say is being poorly communicated.

Let me start by saying that you do communicate very well.

Many posters, including myself, hold similar views concerning WL. This forum has had many, many, often heated discussions confronting these themes. Basically, how do we reconcile the good with all the bad? Take, for example, the LC phenomena of being “poisoned.” In the LC vernacular this indicates a loyal, devoted member to the ministry of WL who almost overnight becomes an outspoken “opposer” as a result of learning some of the hidden history of the Lee family.

Apparently this happened to you back in the 80s, and then me in 2005 during the “tract war” prelude to being quarantined. This forum and its predecessor opened up to the viewing public a number of unbelievable stories of corruption at LSM. Like peeling back layers of an onion, I was repeatedly “shocked.” At the time, the Lord had led me to read several Plymouth Brethren biographies, and basically all I could find online at the time, in an attempt to “make sense” of what was going on. They were our spiritual “forebears,” and much of our history duplicated theirs.

The exact same dilemma confronting you, also has confounded members of the PB assemblies for nearly two centuries concerning John Darby. Like us, they all had to “choose sides,” and “neutral you cannot be.” Few indeed could remotely reconcile the good with the bad, the same with us today. One historian Coad said something that hit me with apparent wisdom when he concluded, “concerning John Darby, there is so much good, and so much more wrong.” And let me add that so many of the same distinguishing features that characterized Darby could be said of both Née and Lee.

[bettercountry]

I hate to spoil the party of 1960s, 70s and 80s, but there is nothing that speaks more louder than the culture and the social environment of those days. Starting with the hippie movement, the sex movement, the transcendental meditation movement (promoted and displayed by Beatles and other big time celebrities), the local church became infested with the world beyond any possible realms. It was cool to be “drunk with the spirit”, be seeking a living by sight rather than faith. The charismatic, experienced based reality was blinding people especially in the “Sodom and Gomorrah” of our times, which is the state of California, where Recovery originated from. Let’s be real here, Witness Lee would have been run out of every town with the tail between his legs, if he went and spoke at some true Christian Bible believing town in the USA at that time. San Francisco? Southern California? Wow! Great spots to introduce jesus that gets your feeling flowing, your heart pumping at the assurance of the fact that you are “the people “, you are “ tha church”! You are the few, the select, the only expression of God in the USA!

So if you think that that time wasn’t what the people are still searching for, long for, before they got figured out by other Christian to be nothing but a counterfeit, then please proceed to wax poetically about it. Claim as it was some special time of the spirit flowing, rather that calling it for what it was, a delusional way to fit in the society that was seeking to achieve the experience of God by any way necessary, including by branding all other Christian groups as dead religion, whore of Babylon, make yourselves feel as if you have arrived at the heights of the revelation of “the New Testament church”, and I can go on and on.
There isn’t anything real there now or was there anything real at anytime, nether here in the USA or elsewhere in the world as these man claims to have had.

Sorry for bursting bubbles, but there is nothing that’s there to be proud of, IF you honest and genuine about it, as a former member of the LC. My opinion, my belief, and my assessment of the movement that I gave more than quarter of my life too, and spent quite some time studying after my exit. Anyone can pick at things in the current form of churches, and I’m in the same boat as most people commented here, but I rather be there, than be at the altar of men, who have done and shown nothing but who they truly are, a counterfeit group, absent of any kind of true fruits of the Spirit, having a form of godliness but denying its power.

Thanks

Thank you for your feedback. It's obvious you (and probably many others on this forum) share a similar strong conviction that everything about the LC was/is completely "counterfeit". It is very well possible that there was absolutely nothing in your time there that was of any spiritual profit, but even after reading and re-reading and re-re-reading your points, I still stand by what I originally said. For me, I definitely had some genuine, rich, profitable times of authentic worship that I am deeply thankful for up to this day. The enjoyable and meaningful times I had were not just some emotional high from the culture of those days. Not saying I want to go back, but more that I wish in a broad sense that the church at large (at least in the US) would be more than what it is. My intention was/is not to offend anyone, but to simply share my testimony as well as some of my current thoughts.

Having said that, I will prayerfully consider all the points that you and others have been making regarding some of my comments. If there is anything I am "holding on to" that I ought not to be, then may the Lord reveal it to me so I can let go of the wood, hay and stubble.

[bettercountry]

The exact same dilemma confronting you, also has confounded members of the PB assemblies for nearly two centuries concerning John Darby. Like us, they all had to “choose sides,” and “neutral you cannot be.” Few indeed could remotely reconcile the good with the bad, the same with us today. One historian Coad said something that hit me with apparent wisdom when he concluded, “concerning John Darby, there is so much good, and so much more wrong.” And let me add that so many of the same distinguishing features that characterized Darby could be said of both Née and Lee.

Thank you, Ohio. The problem is not only trying to reconcile the good with the bad, but also knowing when we ought to dismiss something/someone completely (which is, I think the point the previous poster was making) even if there is some amount of "good" being taught. As the saying goes, indeed the most dangerous churches and preachers are not those that often speak heresies; for that would be easy for a true believer to discern and reject. Rather, it's those that speak truth most of the time, with a smattering of subtle lies. For me, that point of complete dismissal came in the mid 80s with regard to WL and what he taught from that time onward. But, for me, that didn't mean I necessarily dismissed everything prior to the mid 80s.

[JJ]

Whatever it was it just seems to have really made an impact. Many people still look back to those days as something special. Oftentimes what they do talk about is just what bettercountry and JJ said, which is that everyone was allowed to speak, etc. But I don't know what this "should" look like in the present day Christian church. Did the LC have the "everyone has" right, as far as how they carried it out? It doesn't seem like it because these posters even admitted they didn't. The gift/discernment/love/order was still apparently missing. Okay....so if all those are missing, the LC wasn't doing it right I guess. But people still long for the wrongly carried out thing.

Again, not trying to step on anyone's toes or experiences. I just haven't experienced that aspect myself and those who speak about it also don't seem to be able to put their finger on it either. So I'm just trying to sort through what people are able to explain to try to figure it out myself.

Trapped

The point is neither that pre-mid 80’s LC meetings were always great and glorious (they weren’t) nor that all of the exercise of gifts lacked gifting, discernment, love, and/or order but rather sometimes there was a genuine outpouring of the Spirit of our Lord Jesus Christ and too many times gifting was lacking (substituted by performance), few were discerning, love of self replaced genuine love, and disorder reigned. But sometimes the exercise of gifts was according to the measure of the gift of Christ, some discerned, love of God and one another broke through, and there was order for a while. And that gave us a taste of what was possible more often. We who lived through it haven’t figured it out either. We don’t need to. We just need to learn from the past (good and bad) and apply it today and tomorrow.

Jesus is the truth (John 14:6), the truth is in Jesus (Eph 4:21), and the Father’s word is truth (John 17:7). Maybe we need to stop looking for truth in “a church” and settle down in Christ instead, then the “true church” will come out.

[Just Saying]

Thank you for your feedback. It's obvious you (and probably many others on this forum) share a similar strong conviction that everything about the LC was/is completely "counterfeit". It is very well possible that there was absolutely nothing in your time there that was of any spiritual profit, but even after reading and re-reading and re-re-reading your points, I still stand by what I originally said. For me, I definitely had some genuine, rich, profitable times of authentic worship that I am deeply thankful for up to this day. The enjoyable and meaningful times I had were not just some emotional high from the culture of those days. Not saying I want to go back, but more that I wish in a broad sense that the church at large (at least in the US) would be more than what it is. My intention was/is not to offend anyone, but to simply share my testimony as well as some of my current thoughts.

Having said that, I will prayerfully consider all the points that you and others have been making regarding some of my comments. If there is anything I am "holding on to" that I ought not to be, then may the Lord reveal it to me so I can let go of the wood, hay and stubble.


Bettercountry,

I appreciate you honesty, and not only that but willingness to hear others. Please understand one thing clearly that I probably failed to say there, and that even though I truly believe that the local church is a total counterfeit (as a system), I also believe that there is God who knows people’s hearts. I believe that there are genuine believers in the local church that have been there during your time, my time, and currently suffering there now. They know it in their hearts that they are in the wrong place, they don’t belong there, but they are not strong enough, or want it enough to leave. The battle is very difficult and not everyone is wanting to take it head on. Sometimes the price to pay could be everything and everyone you know and knew for years. The battle here is not against the people (although there are full fledged members they will destroy everything and everyone who stands in their way of them continuing this lifestyle), it’s the system that infiltrated every aspect of your life, your daily existence, and your ability to examine and make sober minded decisions.

During my time there, there have been many people, including leading bros, that told me that they feel as if they are stuck. People who have been there for years, and some of these I do believe are genuine believers. They just won’t look for the reasons why that’s the case, and just keep doing and practicing the same things, while expecting different results. They kept talking about the old days a lot, bringing up examples from 30-40 years ago, and my questions to them always were these: do you have something from this week or month to share that God did in your life? Do you have something that’s happening in your life today, yesterday, that’s not associated with 30 years ago? Did God die or just left the building all of a sudden, or He came for a few years only to disappear altogether from the local church? Or was it all just kind of love bombing methodologies that were used to bring and hook people to this movement, only to later reveal who they truly are?

You won’t get the answers to those questions, honesty, and open discussion, which is extremely sad and unfortunate. I’m hoping more people will be raised to speak out, and that there will be more people who will stand there a look at the recovery in the eye and say: “I’ve been there, and done it! I have made it out of it alive, although not without paying a price! I’m not only surviving outside of the LC, but I’m thriving! I’m not afraid to ask questions, nether am I afraid to speak the real truth about my time there.” Maybe more people in there will see the actual true reality of following Jesus Christ as their Lord, and will find encouragement and internal fortitude to seek freedom and liberty in Him!

[Ohio]

Thank you, Ohio. The problem is not only trying to reconcile the good with the bad, but also knowing when we ought to dismiss something/someone completely (which is, I think the point the previous poster was making) even if there is some amount of "good" being taught. As the saying goes, indeed the most dangerous churches and preachers are not those that often speak heresies; for that would be easy for a true believer to discern and reject. Rather, it's those that speak truth most of the time, with a smattering of subtle lies. For me, that point of complete dismissal came in the mid 80s with regard to WL and what he taught from that time onward. But, for me, that didn't mean I necessarily dismissed everything prior to the mid 80s.

Interesting viewpoint. Many years ago on this forum I coined the phrases “early-Lee” and “later-Lee” in an attempt to describe this abrupt change which occurred back in the 80’s. Once again, many came out to reject that premise, dispelling the notion that Lee was ever good. I noted that a similar change also occurred in W. Née, before and after his time of excommunication, and used the phrases early- and later-Née. Many have also rejected that reasoning, but that’s fine, it works for me.

I have also encouraged everyone to “test all things” as Paul said in I Thess 5. We also must “beware of the leaven of the Pharisees” as our Lord warned. That also was continually rejected as an impossibility, since leaven can not be separated from flour. Most here have expressed the need to reject EVERYTHING learned and experienced in the LC, because nothing was good or healthy. I found that to be an impossibility also, since so much of what I learned there was Biblical. I do still read my RecVer of the Bible mainly due to familiarity, but have discarded all books from LSM.

So we face a situation where so many depart the Faith when they exit the LC. I believe that is very unfortunate. Perhaps some who leave never had any faith to begin with. Tragic. Years ago most LC members, like myself, were already believers when they joined, and their exodus seemed to be a less painful endeavor. Over time, however, the LC membership had a higher percentage of church kids who grew up in that system, and many have suffered more than we have.

[Nell]

Just Saying--
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[bettercountry]

I think the true benefit of this forum only comes when everyone has an “iron sharpen iron” mentality, and that none of us are correct on everything. We all have something to learn in our spiritual journey, and that will never stop on this side of heaven. That’s at least, my personal prayer for myself. To be willing and even grateful to be corrected where I ought to be. If that's not my stance, the usefulness of a site like this would be rather limited.

As I continue to ponder the points from “Just Saying” (and others in the same boat as him)….a crude analogy came to mind that might possibly help understand why those of us that left the LC may have varying/different experiences about the LC, and ultimately, different conclusions. If we can imagine the LC as being a large house with many rooms….let’s say there is a slow but constant carbon monoxide leak that exists. And, up until the mid-80s or at some point in the LC history (which is probably another item of debate), there were still a few isolated rooms in the house where the leak did not infiltrate. So, perhaps in the totality of my time in the LC, perhaps I was able to, on brief occasions, be in a few of those isolated “rooms” where there was still no exposure to the CO poisoning. And, perhaps for others, for whatever reason, the carbon monoxide happened to be present in every single room that they entered. Perhaps they never found any rooms at all that were secured from the leak.

In this case, when we reminisce about this "house", this could explain why “Person A” may say there were some good/genuine/profitable things about the LC, while “Person B” would say there is absolutely nothing about the LC that was/is not toxic.

For me, by the mid 80s, I found that the “CO” had permeated every single room of the house….and I simply had no choice but to leave. However, that doesn’t take away from the fact that…at least in my opinion, I was sovereignly able to be in a handful of “rooms” prior to the mid 80s where I was not only protected from poisonous teaching, but I was able to “breathe” some of the best clean air that I can remember.

[Ohio]

I think the true benefit of this forum only comes when everyone has an “iron sharpen iron” mentality, and that none of us are correct on everything. We all have something to learn in our spiritual journey, and that will never stop on this side of heaven. That’s at least, my personal prayer for myself. To be willing and even grateful to be corrected where I ought to be. If that's not my stance, the usefulness of a site like this would be rather limited.

As I continue to ponder the points from “Just Saying” (and others in the same boat as him)….a crude analogy came to mind that might possibly help understand why those of us that left the LC may have varying/different experiences about the LC, and ultimately, different conclusions. If we can imagine the LC as being a large house with many rooms….let’s say there is a slow but constant carbon monoxide leak that exists. And, up until the mid-80s or at some point in the LC history (which is probably another item of debate), there were still a few isolated rooms in the house where the leak did not infiltrate. So, perhaps in the totality of my time in the LC, perhaps I was able to, on brief occasions, be in a few of those isolated “rooms” where there was still no exposure to the CO poisoning. And, perhaps for others, for whatever reason, the carbon monoxide happened to be present in every single room that they entered. Perhaps they never found any rooms at all that were secured from the leak.

In this case, when we reminisce about this "house", this could explain why “Person A” may say there were some good/genuine/profitable things about the LC, while “Person B” would say there is absolutely nothing about the LC that was/is not toxic.

For me, by the mid 80s, I found that the “CO” had permeated every single room of the house….and I simply had no choice but to leave. However, that doesn’t take away from the fact that…at least in my opinion, I was sovereignly able to be in a handful of “rooms” prior to the mid 80s where I was not only protected from poisonous teaching, but I was able to “breathe” some of the best clean air that I can remember.
Following up on your Carbon Monoxide analogy, we had a number of gifted brothers in the Midwest who were not ministry zealots, neither for WL nor for TC. Oftentimes they would just “open a window” and introduce fresh air into the room, dispelling stale toxins, and bring us back to a Christ-centered and Bible first perspective. But that’s not to say that everything and everyone in the Midwest LCs was healthy. Usually I personally would just “lean” towards those I was with, both the good and the worthless, especially in those early years.

Back to your “iron sharpen iron” mentality, I definitely have “leaned” away from many of the unique teachings of WL over the years I have spent here on this forum. Teachings like the ground of locality and God’s Economy were so ingrained in my thinking that it took many months of “sharpening” to be purged of that leaven. Then I would reach the point where I would stand firm against all criticism. One such item was “calling on the name of the Lord.” To me this was something precious in the scripture introduced to me by WL. While I definitely oppose what is now practiced and all programmed “chants” promoted by WL or others, that does not negate the admonition to call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

[JJ]

I think the true benefit of this forum only comes when everyone has an “iron sharpen iron” mentality, and that none of us are correct on everything. We all have something to learn in our spiritual journey, and that will never stop on this side of heaven. That’s at least, my personal prayer for myself. To be willing and even grateful to be corrected where I ought to be. If that's not my stance, the usefulness of a site like this would be rather limited.

As I continue to ponder the points from “Just Saying” (and others in the same boat as him)….a crude analogy came to mind that might possibly help understand why those of us that left the LC may have varying/different experiences about the LC, and ultimately, different conclusions. If we can imagine the LC as being a large house with many rooms….let’s say there is a slow but constant carbon monoxide leak that exists. And, up until the mid-80s or at some point in the LC history (which is probably another item of debate), there were still a few isolated rooms in the house where the leak did not infiltrate. So, perhaps in the totality of my time in the LC, perhaps I was able to, on brief occasions, be in a few of those isolated “rooms” where there was still no exposure to the CO poisoning. And, perhaps for others, for whatever reason, the carbon monoxide happened to be present in every single room that they entered. Perhaps they never found any rooms at all that were secured from the leak

The iron sharpens iron attitude is the best to bring to this forum for sure. The carbon monoxide analogy is a little bit like the old canary in the coal mine story. I.e. things are fine but better get out when the canary drops dead :)

How about applying Jesus’ parable of the tares (weeds) in the grain field in Matthew 13:24-29 https://biblehub.com/blb/matthew/13.htm
and his warning about wolves in sheep’s clothing in Matthew 7:15-20. https://biblehub.com/blb/matthew/7.htm

Everything seems fine in the wheat field until the grain begins to ripen and it becomes clear the tares can’t produce more grains of wheat (https://www.biblestudynote.com/blog/wheat-and-tares/ tares). Jesus concludes that bad fruit comes from a bad tree.

Everything seems fine in the flock until the wool is pulled off the wolf and all the sheep need to run for safety.

We may genuinely reminisce with fondness about how great the early days of the wheat field and flock of sheep were. And, it is kind of like that. Once the tares and wolves have been revealed we warn others about them, marvel at how we were fooled and hopefully learn something about spotting the tares and wolves faster.